The case of missing baby Lisa Irwin is still one of the most hotly debated cases in New Jersey s history. Her parents never received a written confession from her kidnapper, and no arrests have been made since. But after a decade and a half of searching, we finally found him. Now we ve got to figure out what to do with him.
00:34:24.520How, how do you want, like, what do you want my viewers, my audience to know about you in this case and the things that are being said about you?
00:35:07.520Not that I'm feeling guilty about anything, but just the fact that I feel I'm being put involved with and something that I'm not involved in.
00:39:12.520That was his, his messaging all throughout all of this.
00:39:17.520Um, but in reality, the truthful person is going to focus on the crime itself and say, I didn't have any involvement in what happened that night.
00:39:26.520And, um, it's the equivalent of saying, you know, that where the truthful person says, I didn't do it versus the deceptive person says, I wouldn't do it.
00:39:36.520He's trying to impress the latter message on you.
00:39:41.520And, uh, but it's clearly, clearly deceptive.
00:39:44.520Um, when also, when he said, that's what I'm saying, I didn't have any involvement or I don't have any involvement.
00:41:23.520So it's, whenever you say the truthful person would have said it this way, that helps because you do think about yourself wrongfully accused of being involved in something as awful as this.
00:42:22.520OK, but but back to Phil's point, I think Phil, I mean, I don't I don't want to put the words in your mouth, but I feel like what you usually say in this circumstance, Phil, is the truthful person doesn't engage in convincing behavior.
00:42:34.520They don't need to say they would have found my DNA.
00:42:37.520They would have found my fingerprints.
00:42:38.520They're just kind of like, I didn't do it.
00:42:40.520I don't I don't have to convince Megyn Kelly otherwise.
00:43:13.520Because the audience, the viewing audience will see the listening audience needs to be told he didn't need to be up there.
00:43:20.520His work, of course, was paused while he was talking to me and to Bill, and he easily could have stepped down and come over to us or been face to face.
00:43:28.520So what did you make of his his choice to stay elevated and, you know, on the ladder?
00:43:35.520If you recall, he was standing up in a straighter posture when you got there.
00:43:40.520He wasn't leaning on the ladder in that manner.
00:43:43.520And when you guys walked up, then he immediately leaned over and he hunched down.
00:44:44.520But I've got to get to the phones before we do that.
00:44:47.520So that was the one thing we discussed beforehand.
00:44:51.520If if if if he would admit to us what he told Cindy Short, that he found allegedly the three phones on the night baby Lisa went missing, that that would be a tantamount to an admission.
00:45:30.520It's because she's asking me a million questions and I don't want to make her happy, whatever.
00:45:36.520So the listening audience knows one of the things he did there, Phil, which you've called attention to in the past, it can be part of a cluster of deception is hands above the midline.
00:45:44.520He started to move his hands like, oh, she did this.
00:45:47.520She did this. And you've told me in the past.
00:45:48.520And I know from your books by the lie, which everyone should read when you're lying, the nervous energy has to shoot out of you somehow, whether it's your leg crossed and foot clicking or you start to rock.
00:46:00.520But hands above the midline touching your nose, touching your head, moving around can be part of a deception cluster.
00:46:07.520So what did you make of the phone's answer?
00:46:09.520Exactly where you were going, Megan, again, it represents a very significant spike in his anxiety level here.
00:46:18.520And it's interesting, why on earth would someone who's telling the truth need to admit that while they weren't, didn't say they had taken the phones that were missing, but they found other phones on that particular night by coincidence, so to speak.
00:46:36.520Who in their right mind would do that if you're telling the truth?
00:46:41.520Because, and what he recognizes is that by saying that he even had phones, that he did find phones that night, is almost as equally incriminating as the fact that the phones, he had the phones that were missing.
00:46:57.520And that's what led him to say, in my opinion, what led him to say, oh, I was just lying to her at that particular time.
00:47:04.520I was surprised that immediately he knew who Cindy Short was and he knew about the phone conversation.
00:47:09.520He didn't stutter like, what? Huh? Oh, that was nonsense.
00:47:13.520If you think about it for that one moment, let's postulate that he is guilty.
00:47:19.520Let's assume, let's just for argument's sake say he's guilty.
00:47:23.520Every breath, every moment is burned in his brain, right?
00:47:28.520And to me, this question of the phones is one of the most pivotal points made because if he found that phone, right, if he had the phone, that tells us he was in the house.
00:47:42.520I mean, it tells me he was in the house and he called Megan Wright.
00:47:48.520And that's why he was going back and forth.
00:47:51.520Is it advantageous for me to say I found the phones or oh, no, I was just lying.
00:47:56.520He figured out to say he has the phones suggests he had the baby and he knew he didn't want us going there.
00:48:05.520But but this like Phil, this was the most obvious lie, I would say, even to the casual observer without the Phil Houston training, because why would a guy sitting in jail talking to a lawyer make up a lie about having phones when he didn't have phones, quote, to make her happy?
00:48:26.520I think one of the reasons he might have been doing that as well is that between that night and today or the day that you're interviewing him, he has probably told someone, one or two people that he did find phones that night and then realized that when you ask him the question and oh, I need to come up with a reason as to why I had phones.
00:48:52.520Or maybe someone saw him with phones that night and that Megan Wright was dialed.
00:49:38.520Because he could have said, no, I never did.
00:49:40.520But he kind of owned her story of driving the truck onto her property and scaring her a little.
00:49:44.520I think, Megan, what he's trying to do there, going back to the concept of convincing statements or persuasion behavior, what he's trying to do is he's trying to say, hey, if I did something wrong, I'm more than willing to step up and admit it.
00:50:03.520And often that is that convinces people who aren't really attuned to the behavior and the reality of the situation and they buy into it.
00:50:14.520And that's what he's hoping would happen here.
00:50:17.520I'll tell you what, Doug Brunt, my husband, he watched this whole thing and he had one big takeaway.
00:50:23.520Having watched Jersey, he said, you know who he reminds me of?
00:50:30.520Frank Pantangeli from The Godfather when he testified before Congress on whether Michael Corleone was in fact the Godfather and a member of the crime family.
00:50:43.520And he had now had a change of heart before the year.
00:51:46.520Not just from this interview, but it's it's from the history of the evolution of the case and the things that we learned about him over the years.
00:51:56.520And and in the connections to others and the evidence that that we we heard that, you know, about his activities that night, all of that collectively suggest in my mind that, you know, this is our this is our guy.
00:52:41.520As I said before, Megan, you approached him in a non threatening manner.
00:52:47.520It's very counterintuitive in these situations.
00:52:50.520In fact, when we train law enforcement, one of the hardest habits to break is taking that immediate intimidation or intimidating posture and and voice and and accusations and so forth.
00:53:08.520You came up in a very polite manner, very professional manner.
00:53:13.520And you said, listen, we'd like to talk to you as if you were, you know, giving him the option.
00:53:20.520Now, he didn't know you weren't really going to give him the option that you would probably continue, you know, to ask questions and so forth.
00:53:27.520But but he he was willing at that point to say, OK, let me see where this goes right now.
00:54:42.520It's it's one of the most used convincing statements there is.
00:54:46.520And but the timing of when he did it was quite interesting to me.
00:54:51.520It was interesting because it suggests that he felt he played a good role here, that he really accomplished something in the manner in which he answered your questions.
00:55:03.520He was he was kind of, you know, being a peacock here and saying, hey, you know, I've been very honest with you.
00:55:11.520And in reality, he knows he's been anything but that.
00:55:15.520And then he followed it up with this thing has been effing my head up, but I'm not guilty of anything.
00:55:19.520But it's been which what did you make of that statement?
00:55:22.520It's it's again, truth in the lie, as many of these other statements that he made.
00:55:32.520But in in in reality, a truthful person, that's not going to happen.
00:55:38.520In other words, if they'd have gone in truthful person 10 years later or 13 years later, is not going to be terrified and fear that they're going to go to jail or they're going to get the death penalty, whatever the case may be.
00:55:52.520Yet these are all these things that he's saying.
00:55:55.520And these are the things that are worrying him.
00:55:57.520And so I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a day that goes by that he thinks about that night.
00:56:03.520What did you make of Phil when he said I said, why would somebody do you think it happened spur of the moment?
00:59:38.520If you assume for a moment that our assessment of John Tanko is correct.
00:59:45.520And then you look at what Megan is saying about him.
00:59:51.520She clearly is trying to distance herself from him.
00:59:56.520It appears likely so much so that it appears likely to me that she knows what he's been up to.
01:00:04.520And likely she knows what happened that night.
01:00:08.520And as a result, she doesn't want to go down if he, if he is, you know, if Tanko is finally arrested, you know, uncovered or identified as the perpetrator and is, is arrested.
01:00:23.520Then she would then become a co-conspirator.
01:00:26.520And, and, and she realizes that, so she's trying to leave the impression in everyone's mind that she has nothing to do with him.
01:00:35.520She, she, and, and, you know, long before, you know, the baby went missing, she had nothing to do with him.
01:00:41.520And she's trying to create that image.
01:04:32.520Never, of course, being absolute about it.
01:04:34.520But I think it's clear they have because look where he is.
01:04:37.520You know, and I mean, none of these people have faced any kind of serious, you know, investigation that they know after those initial weeks and months.
01:05:14.520And I think as part of reopening the case, the Kansas City police need to deal with the media, take their lumps and get this case, you know, back out there.
01:05:24.520You know, no one's going to come off looking great if they reopen this in a sort of more high profile way.
01:05:29.520But what other way is there to jog memories, to convince the community there in Kansas City that their children are being cared for, that they matter than to start getting some of this stuff out there?
01:05:42.520One of the things I was really surprised to hear Deborah say was that they had taken hair from them to test for for drugs.
01:05:50.520So if they if that's true and it was negative, then why would the police not release that at this point?
01:05:56.520Why not put out whatever can be put out there that can close down avenues that people are discussing and maybe just somehow jog some other memory of somebody?
01:06:05.520You know, that may know somebody who knows somebody, maybe it's not Tanko, but someone who is tangential to Tanko.
01:06:11.520Maybe not somebody who was in the house, but someone that was near and around the house that day.
01:06:16.520Somebody knows something. There has to be a nexus to this house to know there's a baby there to know that Jeremy's working that night.
01:06:24.520Something has to happen to change this.
01:06:26.520It's just unacceptable that it's up to people like you and people like Bill to be on this guy's lawn and not a much larger investigation.
01:06:35.520And, you know, it's really chilling is here we are all these years later.
01:06:39.520They've never found remains of any kind.
01:06:42.520And, you know, if this were a murder, an intentional murder, an accidental death, let's face it, whoever did it of the characters we're talking about, you wouldn't think that these are, you know, sophisticated criminals who actually managed to avoid the police detection and then got rid of the body in a way that very few criminals are able to.
01:07:01.300Or it never got dug up by a dog, never came up if it had been put in the water, you know, like we saw with Lacey Peterson, like this is the one criminal who managed in just that short window of time to conduct the perfect crime.
01:07:15.040No, no DNA, no fingerprints, no proof of any kind, disposed of the body in the way that it never came back.
01:07:21.020So there is a real possibility, if you look at that, that she wasn't killed.
01:07:26.460We haven't really talked about it that much, but that she really wasn't killed and that she was either sold or given to somebody or showed up on the doorstep of a firehouse in some other town that would make some more sense given the absence of a body.
01:07:42.900And remember the investigation in those early days and weeks, the amount of searches of woods in that area, when the address came up, the area, the intersection that Cindy Short says he reported that the phone was right, I immediately put that into Google and looked at images.
01:07:58.960One of the very first live shots I did when the first weekend of this case was a big search right there that included the National Guard and the FBI of that area.
01:08:09.440And all of those similar areas that kind of are, you know, around this neighborhood that have open woods or something were heavily searched in that kind of search that would find any type of remains or something.
01:08:21.280So I think that it's extremely unlikely that, you know, out in public, you know, woods or anything that, you know, there were any remains to be found within a, within a mile or two radius of the house.
01:08:32.440You're amazing. Thank you so much for the great work you've done on this. You've been a highlight of every episode. It's been a pleasure.
01:08:38.500And Jim, Jim, thank you. And, you know, sharing that, you know, once an addict, you're shown that it can be overcome and it is debilitating and you overcame it and you just add that much more character to everything you do. Thank you.