The Megyn Kelly Show - Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates： Baby Lisa's Disappearance ｜ Ep. 1026

00:00:00.000 I'm Megan Kelly. Welcome to The Megan Kelly Show and episode five of our special series,

00:00:05.400 Megan Kelly Investigates. We're tackling the disappearance of baby Lisa Irwin.

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00:01:19.600 and your health today. John Tanko, nicknamed Jersey, the handyman in the neighborhood with a long rap

00:01:28.380 sheet, the ex-boyfriend of Megan Wright, the woman whose phone was called by the Irwin's stolen phone

00:01:35.740 the night their baby, little Lisa, went missing. And the guy who tantalizingly told attorney Cindy Short,

00:01:42.800 he just happened to find three cell phones and then toss them somewhere around the time the baby

00:01:49.940 went missing. You've heard his name again and again in this series. Everyone wants to hear from him

00:01:55.680 and find out what he knows. Well, after 12 plus years, we found him. If you're watching, that's him

00:02:04.120 in the red sweatshirt on the bike. We tracked him back to New Jersey where he was arrested for shoplifting

00:02:09.780 in 2022. Now that we know where he is, it's time to figure out the best way to get him to talk.

00:02:16.840 Here's part of my strategy session with our go-to experts, Bill Stanton and Phil Houston.

00:02:22.880 So unbelievably, we found Jersey. After all this time, nobody could find him. Cindy Short found him,

00:02:30.180 but the cops apparently didn't know where he was for some time. Jim Spellman, who's been doing yeoman's

00:02:35.160 work on this case, couldn't find him. We found him. And now we got to decide what to do with him.

00:02:42.220 So got to figure out what the approach should be. I'm perfectly happy to just go knock on his door

00:02:49.740 and see what happens. Well, if you go knocking on his door, it's very easy just to not even answer

00:02:55.900 or just slam it on your face. What I'm thinking about doing is luring him out and then you come

00:03:03.440 between him and the door, which may give you that precious one line, that question that will hook

00:03:10.680 him. And then he will want to stay outside. And then when he comes out, he doesn't even have to

00:03:16.500 know where together. I got your back and then you confront him.

00:03:21.340 I just want to say that the way I would normally do this is I would go, I would ring the doorbell

00:03:25.820 and I would say, are you John? Hi, I'm Megan Kelly and I'm trying to investigate what happened

00:03:30.960 to this poor missing baby. You know, a lot of allegations have been made about you. Will you

00:03:35.100 talk to me? I'd love to give you the chance to answer some of the things that have been said about

00:03:38.960 you. It's all in the approach. You see, the way I'm proposing it, you get two bites of the apple.

00:03:43.660 Megan, if we want the outcome that we can actually get him to open up even a little bit,

00:03:49.060 you and Bill need to stay together. And with you ringing the doorbell, Bill standing slightly

00:03:56.120 behind you, if he's outside, then you approach him. Megan, you would approach him first. Bill would

00:04:03.460 stay back. Bill needs to keep you within near arms reach distance. If we want to get information from

00:04:12.020 him, we need his resistance at the lowest level possible. And I believe, Bill, you need to give her

00:04:18.160 the highest level of safety and security possible. So can you describe that, Phil? So how would that

00:04:25.860 look in your scenario? Well, I loved your introduction. Hi, I'm Megan Kelly. I'd love to have a chat with

00:04:32.180 you. And here's the reason I'd love to have a chat with you. We have been working on the disappearance

00:04:40.660 of Lisa for over 10 years now. And as a result of that, we know a whole lot more than we've ever known

00:04:50.900 to include the players that are involved. And that's why we're talking to you today. We want to get your

00:04:59.760 side. I would not mention investigate or investigation. I wouldn't mention case, anything that has

00:05:08.440 consequences associated with it. You just want to have a talk and a conversation. We call it a

00:05:15.780 transition statement in the interrogation world, because what it does is, is it signals to that

00:05:21.500 individual that everything that they have done to try and pull this off, to be successful, has failed.

00:05:30.160 And that's when you would get in with the first question. What was your role in the disappearance?

00:05:37.240 It's a presumptive question. A question you want to make sure if you can get in on camera

00:05:42.360 is the question about the telephone. Is there any reason your fingerprints are on those telephones

00:05:48.520 that went missing that night? So, you know, this is a tried and true technique of Phil's.

00:05:54.180 We've actually seen no evidence that Tanko's fingerprints are on any cell phones.

00:05:58.700 You keep talking. John, you're a smart guy. You know that at some point, this was going to come to

00:06:06.960 this. You can help resolve this whole matter that has caused pain and anguish to the parents and to

00:06:16.660 their family. You know, we're not here to argue with you or call you names or anything. And what

00:06:24.580 you're doing is you're limiting or minimizing the amount of questions because every time he answers

00:06:32.460 the lie, your job gets twice as hard to get that admission. But if you could right off the bat can

00:06:39.240 get him to listen to you, you've got a shot. We could talk all about the questions, but the first

00:06:46.280 phase is getting him to stay. The further away getting him outside that front door gives her

00:06:52.160 more time. Time and distance give Megan options because unless we get that engagement, all of 1.00

00:07:01.320 this is for naught. I understand, Bill, but I think you may have a chance to get him to open up a little

00:07:07.860 bit. So, Phil, psychologically at that moment, what are you trying to do? Build him up into thinking

00:07:12.640 that you actually believe he could be helpful, that he's not an adversary or a target, but that

00:07:20.480 we're all in on this together? Without trying to buddy up or cozy up to him. You don't want him to

00:07:28.780 make a denial. Once they deny, that really makes your job difficult. And so when you see them start to

00:07:36.100 make a denial, what you want to do is say their name. Whether people realize it or not, one good

00:07:45.840 way to interrupt a person, stop them from talking, is to say their name. And just instinctively, people

00:07:52.740 shut up when they hear their name. It's a three-step process. You say, John, hang on. It's a control

00:07:59.380 phrase. John, hang on for a minute. Okay. And then, and then I want to hear your side of it. And you've

00:08:07.120 got your hand up is the third. So John, the control phrase and the hand up. And it's not, it's not in

00:08:13.700 your face. It's, it's almost like a defensive gesture. Okay. Or trying to, to stop a denial because.

00:08:22.640 Yes. Yes. Stop the denials at all costs, no matter what happens throughout the, the whole thing. Just

00:08:28.120 keep saying, John, let's talk about the truth. It's not easy. I mean, it, I mean, if it, if it were

00:08:35.340 easy, you know, we'd all, we'd have a ton more confessions than we have, but people do break and

00:08:42.420 they break at moments for reasons we don't understand. Sometimes this could be it. This

00:08:48.280 could be the good. For the sake, for the sake, for the sake of just being, taking the opposite tact,

00:08:54.700 I'm going to be contrary on that. I think the last thing he's going to want to see is you Megan.

00:09:00.420 And I'm hoping he's going to get loud. And in his loud, he may say something stupid. If we can get 1.00

00:09:08.120 one 10th of what Phil's putting forth, that's TV gold because this man has never given an interview.

00:09:15.700 So 30 seconds, two minutes, 10 minutes, an hour, you know, no one has ever been able to do this.

00:09:22.480 I just don't see him changing now as we pull up to his home in the cul-de-sac.

00:09:29.620 No, I, I, I, you're going to, I'm going to do something I've never, I'm happily wrong.

00:09:33.960 Listen, I'm happily wrong. You're, you're absolutely wrong. We do this all the time.

00:09:41.060 I will leave my shoe on Megan's camera.

00:09:43.200 I hope that happens.

00:09:44.900 And be happily wrong.

00:09:46.420 And be happily wrong.

00:09:47.960 I am not anticipating a full confession by any stretch. But if, if you got, for example,

00:09:58.060 an acknowledgement that he had those phones and he did something with them and so forth,

00:10:04.740 that's tantamount to a confession.

00:10:06.820 No, I get it. But it's all about the engagement. Does he take the hook or not?

00:10:12.860 That's it's, it's the opening 10 seconds. If, if Megan doesn't hook them in five to 10 seconds, 1.00

00:10:19.040 then there's nothing.

00:10:20.360 Bill, I talked to terrorists who are far, far more can, you know, condition not to,

00:10:28.960 not to give up information. And they talk, they talk.

00:10:34.360 If you approach him in the right manner.

00:10:36.980 I feel like we're formulating a plan where I, I kind of like, I like what Phil is saying.

00:10:42.900 Like where we show up, we just, we're kind of open about it. We don't pop out with cameras.

00:10:47.640 It's clearly you and me, Bill, walking to the door. You're close, but I'm like in the lead.

00:10:53.780 And we asked to speak with him following, you know, loosely Phil's script.

00:10:59.640 Yes.

00:10:59.880 Now, what about Phil right at the top? When I start, I asked my first question and he gives

00:11:04.340 me the line that my lawyer told me not to talk about this. I'm not talking about this.

00:11:09.180 Okay. You could say, John, look, this is not about lawyers. We're not here to bring harm to anybody,

00:11:17.040 including yourself. We just want the truth. And you have a very critical piece, you know,

00:11:24.760 of information and, and, and, and, you know, that will help this get resolved.

00:11:30.100 So if he's talking in any, in any way, in, in a confrontational way, in a confessional way,

00:11:36.300 in a friendly way, I'm going to be wrestling with saying, would you mind if I bring my cameras in

00:11:47.500 and we can have the same conversation? Because I think that will, that will shut it down. Now I'd

00:11:51.960 much rather have his agreement to doing it on camera. I understand why we have to do it with

00:11:57.220 the undercover camera. And I think it's a good idea, but it'd be so much nicer if we could just

00:12:02.340 have his agreement to do it like that's your call. You'll know, you'll know. Okay. And listen,

00:12:06.920 we got the hidden camera. So we got multiple options. Well, I mean, I think, I mean, he's gone

00:12:12.760 12 years without getting caught on camera at all. It's amazing how he's managed to dodge. So I have

00:12:21.020 zero expectation. He's going to say, yes, I'll sit down in front of your camera. Yeah. But it's,

00:12:26.220 there'll be a, there'll be a point if he's talking to me where I'm going to at least try.

00:12:30.860 Yeah. That's what I, that's how I would have done it if I were in your shoes. Okay. This scripting,

00:12:36.160 this is what I and my colleagues have done for years and years and years. And it just works.

00:12:43.340 It works when often when nothing else does work. Wow. Well, if we manage to emerge with actually

00:12:50.040 any sort of meaningful comment, nevermind confession, but meaningful comment from him on

00:12:54.680 this, I mean, that'll be huge. Like I say, nobody's even seen the guy. You'll have gotten what nobody

00:12:59.860 else did. You know, nobody else has. Well, and honestly, just in all fairness, you,

00:13:05.380 we want to go to him and give him the chance to confront these allegations that have been made.

00:13:10.520 His name keeps coming up. We actually do want to hear what he has to say about all of this.

00:13:15.080 This is his chance. All right, let's get moving. All right. We got to go.

00:13:20.180 And so on March 7th, 2024, I got rigged up with hidden cameras. I wore a shirt with a camera in one

00:13:27.700 of the buttons and another hidden camera in a glasses case sticking out of my shirt pocket.

00:13:33.660 New Jersey is a one-party consent state, so we can record our conversation without obtaining Tanko's

00:13:38.520 permission in case he declines a traditional on-camera interview. The crew stayed in a van

00:13:44.240 nearby, and Bill Stanton and I walked down his street.

00:13:48.100 This is his house right here. The garage is open. He's in the backyard, so face me. Don't turn

00:13:57.000 around. Face me. He's just spotted us. His chicken's back there. He's doing his chores.

00:14:04.360 He's not coming out. No, he's not coming out. So if we want, I'll just fucking call him over.

00:14:12.040 Yeah, I mean, I think that's probably where, because now he's seen us. Right. And he's not 0.94

00:14:17.020 coming out. I'm just going to ask him if I go buy those chickens. You'd be amazed. You want me to do

00:14:24.460 that? No. No, because we don't want to use subterfuge, right? Like, I don't want to put him

00:14:28.660 on the defensive right away for, like, for Phil. I think we want to say, like, I think I want to go

00:14:34.300 over there and say, hey. Let's go to the fence and let's do it. Okay. We're committed. Okay.

00:14:42.040 You want us to do initial talk or you want me to? I do. I will. All right.

00:14:52.380 John. Hi. How are you doing? I'm Megan Kelly.

00:15:03.960 How's it going? I'm good. Nice to see you.

00:15:07.780 Yeah. What's going on here? Chickens? Yeah, roosters. Awesome.

00:15:15.840 Yeah, no, two horses. Two horses? 0.72

00:15:18.780 Four ducks.

00:15:20.200 You've got, like, a whole farm going on back here. Yeah.

00:15:24.640 Thanks for talking to us. I've been working for 10 years on the baby Lisa case.

00:15:32.120 Probably a lot of people have. Yeah. And it's been tireless for us. I mean, we're obsessed.

00:15:37.760 You guys can't figure out how I can use.

00:15:40.240 I know. You know, we know a lot now. We have come to an understanding of some basics.

00:15:46.540 What happened and who was involved. And we are really hoping that you can help us. That you can

00:15:53.960 help us fill out some of the story. We think it's really important to get your input.

00:15:57.640 And I was wondering if you would talk to me.

00:16:00.700 I'd rather not because my lawyer told me not to talk to anybody. It could be a death

00:16:06.200 penalty case. I don't want to have to sit in prison for five years and go to trial.

00:16:11.240 You know, the thing is, the thing is, it's like, Deborah and Jeremy have been, you know, tortured.

00:16:20.080 And so all we're trying to do is, like, sketch out the story and wondering if you can tell

00:16:26.640 us what your involvement was in the disappearance of baby Lisa.

00:16:30.180 I don't have any of them. That's what I'm saying. None whatsoever. I mean, the FBI vacuumed the

00:16:37.700 house. If my DNA, you have a million skin cells. You go like that, they're going to bag it up

00:16:43.620 and they're going to take their DNA into me. And I'd be trolled. No doubt about it. So...

00:16:49.520 What do you mean?

00:16:50.520 Their story is, well, Deborah's story is that some random person came in the house

00:16:59.480 and kidnapped me. Right?

00:17:00.520 Yeah.

00:17:01.520 So now the FBI's involved, they vacuum bagged the whole house. And if my DNA was in there,

00:17:09.520 like from dead skin cells, I'd be charged. I wasn't in the house.

00:17:13.520 Did the cops talk to you?

00:17:14.520 Yeah, they told me this.

00:17:16.520 Did they ever take DNA?

00:17:17.520 Yeah.

00:17:18.520 They did?

00:17:19.520 Yeah.

00:17:20.520 Oh, what did they, like a saliva? They did?

00:17:22.520 Yeah.

00:17:23.520 Did they tell you that you were cleared?

00:17:24.520 They said I didn't have to, but I didn't anyway.

00:17:26.520 Okay. And did they tell you you were cleared and you were good to go?

00:17:30.520 No, they didn't. They still say it's an open case.

00:17:34.520 Okay. Well, what we're trying to do is help them because, the way I see it is, we're trying

00:17:40.520 to provide them with closure. You can help us do that. And with some comfort, you know, and

00:17:45.520 just figuring out what the story is.

00:17:47.520 This is a big shot lawyer.

00:17:49.520 No, he's not a lawyer. He's my friend. This is Bill.

00:17:52.520 Oh, okay.

00:17:53.520 Yeah, no. In another life, he's a lawyer.

00:17:55.520 See, they do these stories and people just trash my name. They totally trash my name.

00:18:03.520 Yeah.

00:18:04.520 You know what I mean? I was involved with a lot of illegal activity about that.

00:18:07.520 Sure. I mean, a lot of people get mixed up in drugs and understand that.

00:18:11.520 What do you think should happen to the guy? What do you think should happen to the person?

00:18:16.520 If they had this?

00:18:17.520 I don't know what happened. So, I mean, if it's a kidnapping or, God forbid, a homicide,

00:18:26.520 I don't care if they're sticking their nose on me.

00:18:29.520 Do you think that the person who took the baby, did it spur the moment or that it was planned?

00:18:37.520 I didn't know to. I don't thought.

00:18:43.520 You worked in the neighborhood that night, right?

00:18:46.520 Not that night, but yeah, I was working in the neighborhood.

00:18:49.520 General. So, why would somebody have said they saw you outside of the Irwin's house that night?

00:18:55.520 People lie a lot.

00:18:59.520 And you didn't know the Irwin's at all, Deborah and Jeremy?

00:19:02.520 I think, I'm not positive, but I think I met Deborah at a bar at a long time, a local bar.

00:19:08.520 Okay. Okay.

00:19:10.520 It used to be called Bama's.

00:19:12.520 And I know you know Megan Wright.

00:19:14.520 Yeah.

00:19:15.520 We've talked to her.

00:19:16.520 Yeah.

00:19:17.520 And you guys used to date, but did she have any involvement in this whole thing?

00:19:24.520 I would doubt it. Like again, I don't know.

00:19:28.520 But if the police are being honest about her getting a phone call from one of the Irwin's phones,

00:19:34.520 then somebody connects, she's connected to her.

00:19:37.520 That just kind of makes sense.

00:19:39.520 Now, did you have those phones?

00:19:42.520 Because we understand that you told a lawyer, Cindy Short, that you found those phones.

00:19:51.520 I found phones that night, but I didn't find them.

00:19:54.520 No? Nothing?

00:19:55.520 Oh.

00:19:56.520 Why?

00:19:57.520 Because she's asking me a million questions and I didn't want to just make her happy, whatever.

00:20:02.520 Mm-hmm.

00:20:03.520 What do you think happened to those phones?

00:20:04.520 Do you think the same person who has the baby has the phones?

00:20:05.520 No.

00:20:06.520 I mean, we didn't know if the phones are missing.

00:20:07.520 I don't know if that's found to fix it.

00:20:08.520 I have no clue.

00:20:09.520 What did you hear about that?

00:20:10.520 Anything?

00:20:11.520 No.

00:20:12.520 Did you ever hear anything about the phones and where they went or whether it was connected

00:20:13.520 to the baby?

00:20:14.520 No.

00:20:15.520 Nothing?

00:20:16.520 No.

00:20:17.520 Why do you think, because you knew the neighborhood a little bit, but certainly better than we

00:20:31.520 do, why would somebody take a baby? 1.00

00:20:34.520 You know what?

00:20:35.520 The FBI asked me the same question.

00:20:37.520 I'm like, all I got to come up with is to sell it to maybe somebody that can't have kids.

00:20:43.520 Mm-hmm.

00:20:44.520 You know?

00:20:45.520 I mean, it sounds crazy, but I think, out of all of this, that's the best case scenario

00:20:53.520 that could really happen.

00:20:54.520 That kid is 11, now 13, or school, you know, has a rich family, you know?

00:21:02.520 Something like that.

00:21:03.520 I mean, that's the best case scenario.

00:21:05.520 Yeah.

00:21:06.520 Well, what do you think?

00:21:07.520 I mean, I know that there were a lot of people in the area who were on drugs, meth, and so

00:21:12.520 on, and we heard a little bit of that from Megan.

00:21:15.520 Is there any chance somebody got messed up on drugs and did something to the baby?

00:21:21.520 I don't know.

00:21:26.520 I don't know.

00:21:27.520 People, I don't see what happened.

00:21:31.520 I put it, but not anything's possible.

00:21:33.520 Yeah.

00:21:34.520 What do you think happened?

00:21:35.520 You know what?

00:21:36.520 I was thinking the pen arts have something to do with it, because they hired all these, 1.00

00:21:41.520 these lawyers, high-priced death penalty lawyers.

00:21:45.520 Um, um, what was the other thing about women's? 0.66

00:21:52.520 You know, the story is no salary.

00:21:58.520 She got drunk and fell asleep, woke up, and the baby's not.

00:22:04.520 Isn't that the salary?

00:22:06.520 Well, why would anybody say that they saw you outside of the Irwin's house that night?

00:22:14.520 I don't know.

00:22:15.520 I don't know, but I wasn't.

00:22:17.520 You've never been in that house?

00:22:19.520 Never.

00:22:20.520 Never once.

00:22:21.520 Never once.

00:22:22.520 So, if your fingerprints are on those phones, what does that tell us?

00:22:28.520 What's it tell me?

00:22:30.520 Yeah.

00:22:31.520 Like, why would your fingerprints be on those phones?

00:22:33.520 I don't know why.

00:22:35.520 I don't know.

00:22:38.520 I'm just trying to figure it out.

00:22:40.520 Okay.

00:22:41.520 Well, you're not, you're telling me this is a fact that my fingerprints are on the phone.

00:22:47.520 But I don't believe it.

00:22:48.520 Because I, I don't, I don't believe I ever possessed a phone.

00:22:52.520 Okay.

00:22:53.520 And you heard that story.

00:22:54.520 You mentioned that one of the phones called Megan Wright that night.

00:22:57.520 Yeah.

00:22:58.520 You believe that?

00:22:59.520 Well, no.

00:23:00.520 I don't know.

00:23:01.520 The police are knowing a lie just because they want to have a direction to go on and use,

00:23:10.520 use something as a, as a way of, you know, getting the information that they want.

00:23:15.520 Yeah.

00:23:16.520 Did she, one of the theories that she really wanted a family, she wanted a kid. 0.77

00:23:21.520 Yeah.

00:23:22.520 That's totally not true.

00:23:23.520 That's not true.

00:23:24.520 She never said that to you.

00:23:25.520 No.

00:23:26.520 Why did you guys break up?

00:23:29.520 You said?

00:23:30.520 Why did you two break up?

00:23:32.520 Because I was, uh, scammed on parole and I had a job to go do at the Watson's house. 0.86

00:23:39.520 And she.

00:23:40.520 Is that the one down the block?

00:23:42.520 Yeah.

00:23:43.520 She called the police, told her I was going to be working at her.

00:23:48.520 She called the police and told them you were going to be at the Watson's that night?

00:23:51.520 Why?

00:23:52.520 That night.

00:23:53.520 Oh.

00:23:54.520 That night that we broke up.

00:23:55.520 She dined you out. 1.00

00:23:56.520 Yeah.

00:23:57.520 Ah.

00:23:58.520 So we broke up and I never talked to her again after that.

00:24:00.520 Maybe, I don't know, four or five months might have went by, um, from when the baby won't

00:24:05.520 listen.

00:24:06.520 No, no, till we broke up till the baby won't listen. 0.98

00:24:09.520 No, bro.

00:24:10.520 Never, ever talked to her.

00:24:11.520 You didn't?

00:24:12.520 You didn't go to her house?

00:24:13.520 I pulled up on the front lawn in a stolen van one time, but I didn't talk to her.

00:24:18.520 Okay.

00:24:19.520 Did you ever set anything on fire of hers or around her?

00:24:23.520 No, the other investigator asked me that too.

00:24:26.520 Said the car was on fire.

00:24:28.520 That wasn't you?

00:24:29.520 No.

00:24:30.520 So you got, you got questioned by the cops and the FBI?

00:24:33.520 Yeah.

00:24:34.520 Separate?

00:24:35.520 Yeah.

00:24:36.520 Two separate?

00:24:37.520 Yeah.

00:24:38.520 And they took your DNA?

00:24:39.520 Yeah.

00:24:40.520 What did it resolve?

00:24:41.520 What did they say to you?

00:24:42.520 It was all over.

00:24:43.520 They didn't.

00:24:44.520 Was it just two sit downs?

00:24:46.520 One with the cop, one with the FBI?

00:24:49.520 No.

00:24:50.520 It was FBI in a homicide interrogation room.

00:24:55.520 Uh-huh.

00:24:56.520 And, um,

00:24:59.520 Chuck, there was, Chuck came and see me, uh, actually to visit me in jail.

00:25:05.520 That, was that scary?

00:25:07.520 Yes.

00:25:08.520 Yeah, the first one.

00:25:09.520 Oh my God.

00:25:10.520 Are you kidding me?

00:25:11.520 You're thinking they're looking at you for a possible kidnapping?

00:25:14.520 I'm thinking that they're exploring all the comments.

00:25:19.520 And was it just that one time?

00:25:21.520 Yeah.

00:25:22.520 How, for a few hours or how long?

00:25:24.520 A few hours for me.

00:25:28.520 A little over an hour.

00:25:30.520 Okay.

00:25:31.520 Maybe some.

00:25:32.520 Okay.

00:25:33.520 Not too long.

00:25:34.520 Maybe an hour.

00:25:35.520 Was it right after the baby went missing?

00:25:36.520 No, because I was still on the run.

00:25:37.520 Okay.

00:25:38.520 So, I have, I, a couple other questions.

00:25:39.520 I'm sorry to take up so much of your time, but do you know who Dane Greathouse is?

00:25:54.520 Dane?

00:25:55.520 Yeah.

00:25:56.520 Yeah.

00:25:57.520 I, I, I believe I met him a couple of times.

00:26:01.520 Maybe we got high together.

00:26:02.520 I don't know.

00:26:03.520 I already made up a rap.

00:26:05.520 Um, some lyrics in it that say, um, I'll make you disappear like baby Lisa.

00:26:13.520 So, I don't know.

00:26:15.520 That was kind of weird.

00:26:17.520 Is there, is there any reason that you would have called Dane Greathouse on the night the

00:26:22.520 baby went missing?

00:26:23.520 No.

00:26:24.520 Oh, no reason.

00:26:25.520 Like I said, I only met him once or twice.

00:26:27.520 And, um, we weren't really friends and we just, you know, I happened to have something

00:26:34.520 or he happened to have something and that was it.

00:26:36.520 Okay.

00:26:37.520 Like we exchanged numbers or 12 after that or anything.

00:26:40.520 How about Cody Allnut?

00:26:42.520 My name sounds familiar, but I can't put a, uh, a face to it.

00:26:48.520 Um, Boris Dubinsky, do you know him?

00:26:51.520 I can't put a face to it.

00:26:54.520 Okay.

00:26:55.520 And I don't recognize the name.

00:26:57.520 And I'm also wondering now, is there, is there any way you've been very generous with

00:27:02.520 your time?

00:27:03.520 Can we do this with like, can I bring a camera person over here and we can do this properly?

00:27:08.520 Absolutely not.

00:27:09.520 Okay.

00:27:10.520 Cause I'd love to get your side.

00:27:13.520 And I hate, I hate being, uh, what are you, what are they referring me as a link to this

00:27:19.520 case?

00:27:20.520 I don't want to know involvement.

00:27:21.520 I'm not involved.

00:27:22.520 You know, when you do a show, your viewers, you're actually giving your viewers an option.

00:27:33.520 This person do it, this person do it.

00:27:36.520 This person do it, this person do it.

00:27:38.520 You see, I don't want to be a little person.

00:27:40.520 I don't want some people to think, I don't want to do that.

00:27:42.520 You got to be involved in it.

00:27:44.520 And that's not me.

00:27:45.520 Yeah.

00:27:46.520 Don, if I, you seem like a straight up guy.

00:27:49.520 First time I really appreciate it.

00:27:51.520 Would you keep you open and want to make them dissociate to have a conversation with you?

00:27:58.520 No.

00:27:59.520 No.

00:28:00.520 Like I said, I really don't want to be part of this.

00:28:04.520 If there's, she don't see information I can give you, that you can, you know, just run

00:28:09.520 and maybe find out what happened.

00:28:14.520 But it's great.

00:28:15.520 I don't want to be empty.

00:28:16.520 I don't want to do all that.

00:28:17.520 Yeah.

00:28:18.520 You got to respect that.

00:28:19.520 Yeah.

00:28:20.520 Do you think taking her was planned or do you think it was a spur of the moment thing?

00:28:27.520 What's your guess?

00:28:28.520 I don't have a guess on that.

00:28:30.520 Like, cause you knew a lot of the players in the neighborhood, you know, like to me,

00:28:35.520 it seems too sophisticated to have a baby be sold.

00:28:38.520 You know, as a, like, who would be able to just steal a baby on the spur of the moment 0.76

00:28:42.520 and then sell it?

00:28:44.520 Well, you don't know it was a spur of the moment.

00:28:47.520 Maybe it was a spur of the moment.

00:28:48.520 Who knows?

00:28:49.520 I don't know.

00:28:50.520 I don't know.

00:28:51.520 I'm going to find myself a ball, you know, as you ever would tell you.

00:28:56.520 Well, how can Debra, how can Debra have gotten rid of the baby's body without it being detected? 1.00

00:29:03.520 You know, that's one of the things that keeps stumping me.

00:29:06.520 I don't understand.

00:29:07.520 Like if Debra killed the baby inadvertently or on purpose.

00:29:11.520 I don't, I don't think most people think if she killed the baby, it was on purpose.

00:29:16.520 Maybe she dropped the baby, maybe whatever. 1.00

00:29:18.520 Yeah.

00:29:19.520 If she did that, she got rid of the body in a way that she fooled even the cops.

00:29:24.520 Yeah.

00:29:25.520 So how could that have happened?

00:29:26.520 Like you knew the neighborhood.

00:29:27.520 How could it happen with anybody?

00:29:29.520 Like what was the backyard like?

00:29:32.520 Do you know what?

00:29:33.520 Describe the area a little bit.

00:29:35.520 No.

00:29:36.520 Around the Irwin's house.

00:29:38.520 I don't know.

00:29:39.520 I've never been there.

00:29:41.520 But you were, I mean, a neighborhood handyman, right?

00:29:44.520 Well, only for the Watson.

00:29:46.520 Okay.

00:29:47.520 He was older.

00:29:48.520 His hands wouldn't work anymore because he had arthritis.

00:29:51.520 So he needed me to do something.

00:29:53.520 He gave me cloth.

00:29:54.520 That night, did you work at the Watson's the night the baby went missing?

00:29:59.520 No.

00:30:00.520 You didn't turn on the sprinkler or off the sprinkler?

00:30:03.520 That was days before.

00:30:05.520 He said once the grass started growing, I didn't have to do it.

00:30:09.520 Oh.

00:30:10.520 He said once you start growing, you got to keep growing.

00:30:13.520 So why would a neighbor say they saw you in the area?

00:30:17.520 I don't know.

00:30:18.520 It's the third time he asked me.

00:30:20.520 Okay.

00:30:21.520 Sorry.

00:30:22.520 I'm losing my own.

00:30:23.520 I don't know.

00:30:24.520 People lie.

00:30:25.520 I don't know.

00:30:26.520 Now I'm in the area.

00:30:27.520 I first decided it was on our own house.

00:30:30.520 You see?

00:30:31.520 Well, I'm asking you beyond because, you know, there's the one set of neighbors that say

00:30:36.520 they saw somebody who matches your description, they didn't say you, with a baby that night,

00:30:45.520 like around midnight.

00:30:46.520 Do you remember that?

00:30:48.520 I heard that there was a witness that, oh, seen somebody carrying a baby.

00:30:54.520 I didn't get all that about fits my description type of stuff.

00:30:59.520 Okay.

00:31:00.520 See, this is, this is, you know, it's just weird because it's like, like I said, it's going

00:31:11.520 to put in people's minds that I couldn't possibly have to.

00:31:15.520 I don't deserve it.

00:31:18.520 That's, I mean, and that's not us.

00:31:20.520 You know, there are witnesses in the case saying, you know, look at, look at this guy.

00:31:23.520 As you know, and that's, we have to look into that.

00:31:27.520 And we're very open minded to all the possibilities.

00:31:29.520 I mean, I've said before, when I first went out there, when I arrived on scene in Kansas City,

00:31:33.520 I thought 100% it was Deborah.

00:31:35.520 100%.

00:31:36.520 That's what I thought.

00:31:37.520 Over the years, you know, I've considered everybody.

00:31:41.520 I consider you.

00:31:42.520 I, I don't know.

00:31:43.520 I don't know what the answer is to this moment.

00:31:45.520 I don't know, but I definitely wanted to talk to you to get your, you, you're a lot closer

00:31:51.520 to it than I am.

00:31:52.520 So you got better answers than I do.

00:31:54.520 Where, what were you doing that night?

00:31:57.520 You know, if I, if I was to, I tell you, then you'd go there and I'm not going to be that person that's, that sends you something.

00:32:09.520 You're looking pretty healthy now.

00:32:12.520 Organic eggs?

00:32:13.520 Oh yeah.

00:32:14.520 Yeah.

00:32:15.520 Yeah.

00:32:16.520 Yeah.

00:32:17.520 That's a pretty good setup.

00:32:18.520 Yeah.

00:32:19.520 So, okay.

00:32:20.520 So you were not in the neighborhood that night and.

00:32:22.520 No.

00:32:23.520 Okay.

00:32:24.520 So nobody, if anybody saw somebody looking like you, it wasn't you.

00:32:26.520 No.

00:32:27.520 Is there any, anyone you think we should talk to or what can we do to help advance this?

00:32:34.520 Any thoughts?

00:32:35.520 I have no clue.

00:32:36.520 I have no clue.

00:32:37.520 Can you, can we talk for just one more minute about Cindy Short and that visit she paid you in 0.94

00:32:42.520 the jail?

00:32:43.520 Cindy Short.

00:32:44.520 The lawyer.

00:32:45.520 Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:32:46.520 Yeah.

00:32:47.520 Cause she definitely told us that you told her you found those three phones.

00:32:51.520 And I told you, I told her that, but I wasn't, I wasn't being honest.

00:32:55.520 I don't even know why I said, maybe I was still spun out.

00:33:00.520 I don't know.

00:33:01.520 I don't know why I said that.

00:33:03.520 She said, she thought at one point you were like wrestling with maybe a confession.

00:33:11.520 She didn't say that you confessed anything.

00:33:13.520 That's not true.

00:33:14.520 That's not true.

00:33:15.520 I told her I had nothing to do with you.

00:33:17.520 It's like I'm telling you about that.

00:33:19.520 I'm not familiar with that.

00:33:20.520 I don't know anything really.

00:33:22.520 Mm-hmm.

00:33:23.520 This, this case, I don't do pay attention to it.

00:33:26.520 Like when it hits the news, what does it, what does it bring up for you?

00:33:29.520 You know what?

00:33:30.520 There was a story about, that I always miss a baby.

00:33:36.520 And they went through all this thing.

00:33:38.520 It was an hour long.

00:33:39.520 And then I'm, I'm at the end.

00:33:42.520 You know, the very last person they speak about.

00:33:45.520 You know, so it kind of made me feel like that the program was designed by somebody to make it appear that the story ends here, this guy.

00:34:03.520 You see what I mean?

00:34:04.520 Yep.

00:34:05.520 But that's what, and that bothered you greatly.

00:34:07.520 It still bothers me to this day.

00:34:08.520 How do you, do you feel like it affects you with your neighbors and your life?

00:34:12.520 I, I haven't talked to them.

00:34:14.520 I haven't talked to them.

00:34:15.520 I haven't talked to them.

00:34:16.520 You know what I mean?

00:34:17.520 If you Google my name, they can find out.

00:34:19.520 You know?

00:34:20.520 Yeah. 0.98

00:34:21.520 That sucks, too. 0.99

00:34:22.520 That totally sucks. 0.99

00:34:23.520 Well, let me ask you this. 0.98

00:34:24.520 How, how do you want, like, what do you want my viewers, my audience to know about you in this case and the things that are being said about you?

00:34:33.520 Yeah.

00:34:34.520 I don't have anything involved in it.

00:34:36.520 What's the matter?

00:34:37.520 Zero.

00:34:38.520 Never touched that baby?

00:34:40.520 No.

00:34:41.520 Never saw that baby?

00:34:42.520 No.

00:34:43.520 Never saw it.

00:34:44.520 No.

00:34:45.520 Well, thank you for talking to us.

00:34:47.520 Thank you.

00:34:48.520 I appreciate it.

00:34:49.520 If you could tell on me, I'm honest with you.

00:34:51.520 I really am, because, oh, honesty is the best policy, man.

00:34:56.520 Look, I know you don't, I know you don't talk a lot, so I appreciate you letting me come on here and ask these questions. 0.99

00:35:02.520 This whole shit fucks my head up. 0.99

00:35:04.520 I'm sure. 1.00

00:35:05.520 It fucks my head up. 0.97

00:35:06.520 I'm sure. 0.89

00:35:07.520 Not that I'm feeling guilty about anything, but just the fact that I feel I'm being put involved with and something that I'm not involved in.

00:35:15.520 Okay.

00:35:16.520 All the best to you.

00:35:17.520 Thank you.

00:35:18.520 Say well. 0.99

00:35:19.520 I hope you guys don't kick too much shit on me. 0.99

00:35:21.520 Well, we're going to tell a story and I'm going to tell them what you told me. 0.99

00:35:25.520 We'll hear from you.

00:35:26.520 Okay?

00:35:27.520 Thank you.

00:35:28.520 Have a good day.

00:35:29.520 Have a good day.

00:35:30.520 Have a good day.

00:35:35.520 Well, that was interesting.

00:35:39.520 Wow. 1.00

00:35:40.520 Now I got to eat my fucking chew. 1.00

00:35:42.520 Oh my God. 1.00

00:35:43.520 Start with the tongue, Bill Stanton.

00:35:47.520 That's what I recommend.

00:35:48.520 Start there.

00:35:49.520 Oh, he's got it.

00:35:54.520 Delicious.

00:35:55.520 Okay.

00:35:56.520 It's so good to have you guys here in this setting.

00:35:59.520 I've been looking forward to this from the moment we walked off property there, Bill.

00:36:03.520 And just so the audience knows, I have not spoken with Phil or Bill at all about this since the day of I haven't spoken to Phil at all.

00:36:11.520 So I have no idea what he thought of the whole exchange.

00:36:13.520 And yet we spent so much time preparing for it.

00:36:15.520 So this is exciting.

00:36:16.520 Bill, we walked out of there.

00:36:18.520 We got into the van and really could not believe it.

00:36:21.520 Like, I think you and I were both like, Oh my God.

00:36:24.520 Oh my God.

00:36:25.520 You know?

00:36:26.520 And then I asked him if he would sit down with our cameras.

00:36:28.520 He said, no, but talk about your impressions, Bill.

00:36:32.520 There was so much going on in my head for your safety and our safety.

00:36:37.520 And then when he started talking and he was so relaxed.

00:36:42.520 So this man, what I felt he was doing was trying to sell us and you weren't having any of it.

00:36:49.520 Hmm.

00:36:50.520 I couldn't believe how, how much he talked.

00:36:53.520 I really thought at any second we're going to get kicked out of here.

00:36:56.520 The fact that we were there that long is phenomenal to me.

00:37:00.520 That was my least likely scenario to happen.

00:37:04.520 And then Phil, you're the human lie detector.

00:37:07.520 What did you think?

00:37:08.520 Megan, I thought that your interview with him was great.

00:37:12.520 Uh, it elicited a lot of deceptive behavior.

00:37:16.520 Uh, the overarching mistakes that he made primarily were his failure to deny definitively.

00:37:26.520 I'm thrilled to hear you say deception detected because that's what I thought.

00:37:32.520 I walked out of there and I was like, I've got more doubts about this guy than ever.

00:37:36.520 But our whole team did not feel that way.

00:37:38.520 And, um, I just thought there were my own baby Phil lie detector abilities, right?

00:37:45.520 Just cause I've followed you for so long.

00:37:47.520 We're going off like crazy.

00:37:49.520 I thought there were many indicate indications of deception.

00:37:52.520 He had too many explanations.

00:37:55.520 And I remember asking you about Megan, right?

00:37:58.520 What would a truth teller sound like?

00:38:00.520 And you said, I can't tell you that exactly, but there would have been a whole lot more.

00:38:05.520 I didn't do it.

00:38:07.520 You know, I didn't do it.

00:38:09.520 So let's, let's play the first exchange that we had with Jersey.

00:38:14.520 Um, where he brings up the death penalty, which, you know, Bill and I were both like,

00:38:19.520 Whoa, what?

00:38:20.520 Huh?

00:38:21.520 Let's watch that.

00:38:22.520 I was wondering if you would talk to me.

00:38:24.520 I'd rather not because my lawyer told me not to talk to anybody, but it's a, it could be a death penalty case.

00:38:30.520 So I don't want to have to sit in prison for five years.

00:38:33.520 You know, you know, the thing is.

00:38:36.520 You ask him a very difficult question, but in a very low key manner.

00:38:41.520 And one of the reasons that he talked to you so much, I believe, is that you didn't give him a reason to dislike you.

00:38:48.520 And he let his guard down some.

00:38:50.520 And in doing so, he gave some lengthy, lengthier responses than, than he needed to.

00:38:58.520 And that's where the deceptive behavior began to come to fold in.

00:39:02.520 Uh, in that, in this particular case, he, you know, he said, I don't have any involvement.

00:39:07.520 And he used the present tense.

00:39:10.520 I don't have any involvement.

00:39:12.520 That was his, his messaging all throughout all of this.

00:39:17.520 Um, but in reality, the truthful person is going to focus on the crime itself and say, I didn't have any involvement in what happened that night.

00:39:26.520 And, um, it's the equivalent of saying, you know, that where the truthful person says, I didn't do it versus the deceptive person says, I wouldn't do it.

00:39:36.520 He's trying to impress the latter message on you.

00:39:41.520 And, uh, but it's clearly, clearly deceptive.

00:39:44.520 Um, when also, when he said, that's what I'm saying, I didn't have any involvement or I don't have any involvement.

00:39:51.520 That's what I'm saying.

00:39:52.520 That doesn't mean that's what, that isn't what it is, so to speak.

00:39:57.520 In other words, he's not saying I wasn't involved.

00:40:00.520 This is just what I'm saying at this particular point.

00:40:04.520 So that one was a real key right off the bat that, uh, there's, there's probably more lies to follow.

00:40:11.520 Well, we did accurately predict that his first instinct would to be, would be to say, the lawyers aren't going to let me talk.

00:40:19.520 You know, didn't foresee the death penalty line, but he did try that.

00:40:24.520 And thankfully, thanks to your guidance, Phil, we shut it down, got him off of that sticky place.

00:40:30.520 And then I launched with the first Phil Houston question.

00:40:34.520 And wondering if you can tell us what your involvement was in the disappearance of baby Lisa.

00:40:40.520 I don't have any, that's what I'm saying. None whatsoever.

00:40:46.520 The FBI vacuum died the house.

00:40:48.520 It's my DNA.

00:40:49.520 You have a million skin cells.

00:40:51.520 Go like that.

00:40:52.520 They're going to bag it off.

00:40:53.520 They're going to DNA it to me.

00:40:55.520 And I'd be charged. 0.94

00:40:57.520 We'll die, bye.

00:40:59.520 In there, the deceptive behavior that really stood out was his immediate aggression against the FBI. 0.77

00:41:08.520 And the truthful person wouldn't be thinking, answering truthfully is going to land me in prison for five years.

00:41:16.520 You know, or just because this is a death penalty case.

00:41:20.520 Oh, okay, I got it.

00:41:23.520 So it's, whenever you say the truthful person would have said it this way, that helps because you do think about yourself wrongfully accused of being involved in something as awful as this.

00:41:33.520 What involvement did you have?

00:41:35.520 Yeah, you'd say none.

00:41:37.520 And Megan, think about it.

00:41:39.520 He's saying they would find my DNA at the location.

00:41:45.520 I mean, why would his DNA be at the location?

00:41:48.520 They've never seen him there before.

00:41:50.520 He's never said he was there before.

00:41:52.520 But then he seemed, Bill, to be trying to say they would have found my DNA.

00:41:57.520 If I'd been involved, they would have found that DNA.

00:42:01.520 Because I was like, what?

00:42:02.520 Right?

00:42:03.520 I thought he was saying the same thing.

00:42:05.520 Right.

00:42:06.520 Then he seemed to try to clarify, if I were guilty, the evidence of me having been there would have been all over the place.

00:42:12.520 Well, maybe it would have been found if, you know, half of Kansas City and mainstream media wasn't in and out.

00:42:21.520 Yes.

00:42:22.520 OK, but but back to Phil's point, I think Phil, I mean, I don't I don't want to put the words in your mouth, but I feel like what you usually say in this circumstance, Phil, is the truthful person doesn't engage in convincing behavior.

00:42:34.520 They don't need to say they would have found my DNA.

00:42:37.520 They would have found my fingerprints.

00:42:38.520 They're just kind of like, I didn't do it.

00:42:40.520 I don't I don't have to convince Megyn Kelly otherwise.

00:42:42.520 Yeah.

00:42:43.520 He's using the the convincing statements.

00:42:46.520 And then you look at how he's standing on the ladder.

00:42:49.520 He's trying to look very nonchalant up there.

00:42:52.520 But in fact, he's very threatened by you and very intimidated internally by the questions you're asking, Megyn.

00:43:01.520 And but he doesn't really you didn't give him an opening to, you know, criticize or accuse you or attack you.

00:43:08.520 And that made it very, very difficult for him.

00:43:11.520 Why? Why was he up on the ladder?

00:43:13.520 Because the audience, the viewing audience will see the listening audience needs to be told he didn't need to be up there.

00:43:20.520 His work, of course, was paused while he was talking to me and to Bill, and he easily could have stepped down and come over to us or been face to face.

00:43:28.520 So what did you make of his his choice to stay elevated and, you know, on the ladder?

00:43:35.520 If you recall, he was standing up in a straighter posture when you got there.

00:43:40.520 He wasn't leaning on the ladder in that manner.

00:43:43.520 And when you guys walked up, then he immediately leaned over and he hunched down.

00:43:50.520 He was intimidated.

00:43:52.520 He doesn't know who you are.

00:43:54.520 He doesn't know what your intentions are.

00:43:56.520 So he's a little scared.

00:43:58.520 And so that anchor point movement that we saw represented a spike in his anxiety and he sit tight and just look like he's not threatened.

00:44:09.520 And that's the thing you'll see in prison a lot.

00:44:12.520 You know, the key is, is people have to look and act as if they're not threatened by anything or anyone around them.

00:44:19.520 And he's given his prison time.

00:44:22.520 He's pretty good at that.

00:44:23.520 The ladder is not only elevating him, but it's a barrier between him and me.

00:44:29.520 There is that sort of defensive thing of it's in front of me.

00:44:33.520 I've got my arms around it.

00:44:34.520 I'm I'm safer behind this ladder.

00:44:37.520 And we'll definitely get into why did he talk, because that was our big debate before Bill and I went.

00:44:43.520 Is he going to?

00:44:44.520 But I've got to get to the phones before we do that.

00:44:47.520 So that was the one thing we discussed beforehand.

00:44:51.520 If if if if he would admit to us what he told Cindy Short, that he found allegedly the three phones on the night baby Lisa went missing, that that would be a tantamount to an admission.

00:45:06.520 Well, here's how that went in part.

00:45:08.520 Now, did you have those phones?

00:45:11.520 Because we we understand that you told a lawyer, Cindy Short, that you found those phones.

00:45:20.520 I'm doing whatever she wanted me here.

00:45:23.520 I didn't tell her I found those phones.

00:45:25.520 I said I found phones that night, but I didn't find them.

00:45:28.520 No, nothing.

00:45:29.520 Oh, why?

00:45:30.520 It's because she's asking me a million questions and I don't want to make her happy, whatever.

00:45:36.520 So the listening audience knows one of the things he did there, Phil, which you've called attention to in the past, it can be part of a cluster of deception is hands above the midline.

00:45:44.520 He started to move his hands like, oh, she did this. 0.89

00:45:47.520 She did this. And you've told me in the past.

00:45:48.520 And I know from your books by the lie, which everyone should read when you're lying, the nervous energy has to shoot out of you somehow, whether it's your leg crossed and foot clicking or you start to rock.

00:46:00.520 But hands above the midline touching your nose, touching your head, moving around can be part of a deception cluster.

00:46:07.520 So what did you make of the phone's answer?

00:46:09.520 Exactly where you were going, Megan, again, it represents a very significant spike in his anxiety level here.

00:46:18.520 And it's interesting, why on earth would someone who's telling the truth need to admit that while they weren't, didn't say they had taken the phones that were missing, but they found other phones on that particular night by coincidence, so to speak.

00:46:36.520 Who in their right mind would do that if you're telling the truth?

00:46:41.520 Because, and what he recognizes is that by saying that he even had phones, that he did find phones that night, is almost as equally incriminating as the fact that the phones, he had the phones that were missing.

00:46:55.520 It's clearly one in the same.

00:46:57.520 And that's what led him to say, in my opinion, what led him to say, oh, I was just lying to her at that particular time.

00:47:04.520 I was surprised that immediately he knew who Cindy Short was and he knew about the phone conversation.

00:47:09.520 He didn't stutter like, what? Huh? Oh, that was nonsense.

00:47:13.520 If you think about it for that one moment, let's postulate that he is guilty.

00:47:19.520 Let's assume, let's just for argument's sake say he's guilty.

00:47:23.520 Every breath, every moment is burned in his brain, right?

00:47:28.520 And to me, this question of the phones is one of the most pivotal points made because if he found that phone, right, if he had the phone, that tells us he was in the house.

00:47:42.520 I mean, it tells me he was in the house and he called Megan Wright.

00:47:48.520 And that's why he was going back and forth.

00:47:51.520 Is it advantageous for me to say I found the phones or oh, no, I was just lying.

00:47:56.520 He figured out to say he has the phones suggests he had the baby and he knew he didn't want us going there.

00:48:05.520 But but this like Phil, this was the most obvious lie, I would say, even to the casual observer without the Phil Houston training, because why would a guy sitting in jail talking to a lawyer make up a lie about having phones when he didn't have phones, quote, to make her happy?

00:48:26.520 I think one of the reasons he might have been doing that as well is that between that night and today or the day that you're interviewing him, he has probably told someone, one or two people that he did find phones that night and then realized that when you ask him the question and oh, I need to come up with a reason as to why I had phones.

00:48:52.520 Or maybe someone saw him with phones that night and that Megan Wright was dialed.

00:48:57.520 Megan Wright's number was dialed.

00:48:59.520 He had to make it.

00:49:00.520 In my opinion, he had to make a story.

00:49:02.520 Oh, I found the phones.

00:49:04.520 And then he realized it's not his best interest to say he had.

00:49:07.520 Oh, I didn't have the phones.

00:49:09.520 Yeah, exactly.

00:49:10.520 Exactly.

00:49:11.520 That was his weakest part, because there were other moments where I thought, OK, you know what?

00:49:16.520 He's he's doing better here.

00:49:18.520 And one of those moments was when he tried to say he and Megan Wright broke up and he never saw her.

00:49:24.520 And I said, you didn't you didn't stalk her at all or however I phrased it.

00:49:28.520 You know, you didn't show up at her house.

00:49:30.520 And he owned that one right away.

00:49:32.520 I pulled up on the front lawn in a stolen van one time.

00:49:35.520 But I didn't talk to her.

00:49:36.520 So what was your reaction that fell?

00:49:38.520 Because he could have said, no, I never did.

00:49:40.520 But he kind of owned her story of driving the truck onto her property and scaring her a little.

00:49:44.520 I think, Megan, what he's trying to do there, going back to the concept of convincing statements or persuasion behavior, what he's trying to do is he's trying to say, hey, if I did something wrong, I'm more than willing to step up and admit it.

00:50:03.520 And often that is that convinces people who aren't really attuned to the behavior and the reality of the situation and they buy into it.

00:50:14.520 And that's what he's hoping would happen here.

00:50:17.520 I'll tell you what, Doug Brunt, my husband, he watched this whole thing and he had one big takeaway.

00:50:23.520 Having watched Jersey, he said, you know who he reminds me of?

00:50:28.520 He said he reminds me of this guy.

00:50:29.520 Exactly.

00:50:30.520 Frank Pantangeli from The Godfather when he testified before Congress on whether Michael Corleone was in fact the Godfather and a member of the crime family.

00:50:43.520 And he had now had a change of heart before the year.

00:50:47.520 Here it is.

00:50:48.520 Watch.

00:50:49.520 Tell me if this looks like Jersey.

00:50:51.520 I don't know nothing about that.

00:50:53.520 Do you deny that confession?

00:50:55.520 And do you realize what will happen as a result of your denial?

00:50:58.520 Look, the FBI guys, they promised me a deal.

00:51:01.520 So I made up a lot of stuff about Michael Corleone because that's what they wanted.

00:51:07.520 But it was all lies.

00:51:10.520 It's the same sequencing of deceptive behavior that we just saw, almost identical to what we just saw with Tanko.

00:51:19.520 It's amazing.

00:51:20.520 OK, so what's your takeaway now, having watched it, Phil?

00:51:24.520 Like the when it wrapped up, having watched the, you know, 25 minutes, what did you walk away saying?

00:51:30.520 There are signs of deception and.

00:51:33.520 There's no there's no doubt in my mind, in my opinion, that he is directly involved, if not unilaterally, the person that took the baby.

00:51:45.520 That's strong.

00:51:46.520 Not just from this interview, but it's it's from the history of the evolution of the case and the things that we learned about him over the years.

00:51:56.520 And and in the connections to others and the evidence that that we we heard that, you know, about his activities that night, all of that collectively suggest in my mind that, you know, this is our this is our guy.

00:52:11.520 So why did he talk to me, Phil?

00:52:13.520 We that was our big debate.

00:52:14.520 That's why Bill had to eat his shoe because he said he's not going to talk.

00:52:18.520 And you said he'll talk.

00:52:20.520 It happens.

00:52:21.520 And sure enough, he did talk.

00:52:23.520 And, you know, the audience knows they went through this was like he hasn't talked in all his time.

00:52:28.520 You know, as you know, I always go by my own my own daughter.

00:52:30.520 She's about to turn 13.

00:52:33.520 That whole time he's kept quiet.

00:52:35.520 He's never made a public statement.

00:52:36.520 He's never even been caught on camera in any meaningful way.

00:52:39.520 So why did he talk?

00:52:41.520 As I said before, Megan, you approached him in a non threatening manner.

00:52:47.520 It's very counterintuitive in these situations.

00:52:50.520 In fact, when we train law enforcement, one of the hardest habits to break is taking that immediate intimidation or intimidating posture and and voice and and accusations and so forth.

00:53:07.520 You did none of that.

00:53:08.520 You came up in a very polite manner, very professional manner.

00:53:13.520 And you said, listen, we'd like to talk to you as if you were, you know, giving him the option.

00:53:20.520 Now, he didn't know you weren't really going to give him the option that you would probably continue, you know, to ask questions and so forth.

00:53:27.520 But but he he was willing at that point to say, OK, let me see where this goes right now.

00:53:34.520 I'm up here on this ladder.

00:53:36.520 I'm in a safe place.

00:53:38.520 So what's the harm?

00:53:40.520 And maybe I can gain some ground in the meantime.

00:53:43.520 And because of the what you ask him and how you ask them, it allowed you to gain ground.

00:53:50.520 And he wasn't realizing that he had let his guard down.

00:53:54.520 And he's now talking to you in narratives instead of one word answers or refusing to answer or whatever.

00:54:03.520 He's thinking, OK, maybe I can pull off a fast one, you know, with this lady.

00:54:10.520 And and in retrospect, when you think about it, guys, we were literally in his backyard.

00:54:16.520 He had the high ground.

00:54:18.520 He felt safe.

00:54:20.520 We were in his territory on in his yard while he was up.

00:54:26.520 He felt he was in control.

00:54:27.520 That's a good point.

00:54:29.520 It was kind of ironic that he ended the exchange with honesty is the best policy.

00:54:34.520 Honesty is the best policy, like touting his own honesty, which is another tell, Phil, is it not?

00:54:41.520 Oh, absolutely.

00:54:42.520 It's it's one of the most used convincing statements there is.

00:54:46.520 And but the timing of when he did it was quite interesting to me.

00:54:51.520 It was interesting because it suggests that he felt he played a good role here, that he really accomplished something in the manner in which he answered your questions.

00:55:03.520 He was he was kind of, you know, being a peacock here and saying, hey, you know, I've been very honest with you.

00:55:11.520 And in reality, he knows he's been anything but that.

00:55:15.520 And then he followed it up with this thing has been effing my head up, but I'm not guilty of anything.

00:55:19.520 But it's been which what did you make of that statement?

00:55:22.520 It's it's again, truth in the lie, as many of these other statements that he made.

00:55:27.520 He's saying something he's telling that's truthful.

00:55:30.520 It did mess up his head.

00:55:32.520 But in in in reality, a truthful person, that's not going to happen.

00:55:38.520 In other words, if they'd have gone in truthful person 10 years later or 13 years later, is not going to be terrified and fear that they're going to go to jail or they're going to get the death penalty, whatever the case may be.

00:55:52.520 Yet these are all these things that he's saying.

00:55:55.520 And these are the things that are worrying him.

00:55:57.520 And so I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a day that goes by that he thinks about that night.

00:56:03.520 What did you make of Phil when he said I said, why would somebody do you think it happened spur of the moment?

00:56:10.520 Do you think it was planned out?

00:56:11.520 And he didn't bite there at all.

00:56:14.520 He's like, I don't know.

00:56:15.520 And then I rounded back again and he said, I don't know.

00:56:17.520 And then he's like, you already asked me this.

00:56:20.520 You know, he he did.

00:56:21.520 He was pretty firm on that one.

00:56:23.520 Like, I don't know.

00:56:24.520 And stop asking me that.

00:56:25.520 That I thought was a point in his favor.

00:56:28.520 Remember what we said earlier, how he said, I don't have any involvement.

00:56:33.520 That is his agenda in his mind.

00:56:36.520 And so when you ask him a question that is similar to that now, he's already got the answer framed out.

00:56:43.520 And that's why it looks and sounds, you know, more truthful.

00:56:47.520 Give you another example of that.

00:56:50.520 At one point you ask him, I think, about fingerprints or whatever on the phone.

00:56:54.520 And he gave what on the surface would appear to be a truthful answer.

00:56:58.520 Why would your fingerprints be on those phones?

00:57:01.520 I don't know.

00:57:04.520 I don't know.

00:57:05.520 I'm just trying to figure it out.

00:57:07.520 Okay.

00:57:08.520 Well, you know, you're telling me this is fact that my fingerprints are on the phone.

00:57:14.520 But I don't believe it.

00:57:15.520 I don't, I don't believe I ever possessed a phone.

00:57:19.520 I suspect his, by the end of the night, his fingerprints were no longer on that phone.

00:57:25.520 I, and he knows that and he's, he's wiped them off.

00:57:28.520 And so that's something that he can say, you know, truthfully.

00:57:32.520 Yeah.

00:57:33.520 With confidence.

00:57:34.520 Right.

00:57:35.520 He challenged up whether his fingerprints were on the phone.

00:57:36.520 And the other thing he challenged with confidence was this.

00:57:38.520 Why would a neighbor say they saw you in the area?

00:57:41.520 I don't know.

00:57:42.520 It's the third time he asked me.

00:57:44.520 Okay.

00:57:45.520 Sorry.

00:57:46.520 I'm, I'm losing my own.

00:57:47.520 I don't know.

00:57:48.520 People lie.

00:57:49.520 I don't know.

00:57:50.520 Yeah.

00:57:51.520 Right.

00:57:52.520 Now I'm in the area.

00:57:53.520 I'm not forced to say it was on our own house.

00:57:55.520 You see.

00:57:56.520 Well, I'm asking you beyond because, you know, there, there's the one set of neighbors

00:58:00.520 that say they saw somebody who matches your description.

00:58:04.520 They didn't say you with a baby that, that night, like around midnight.

00:58:11.520 Do you remember that?

00:58:13.520 I remember that there was a witness that, oh, seen somebody carrying a baby.

00:58:19.520 I didn't, I didn't get all that about fits my description type.

00:58:24.520 So he did know, he knew facts about this investigation in a way that I thought was pretty telling as well.

00:58:29.520 But that was a, that was a great example of deception.

00:58:32.520 He didn't say I wasn't there.

00:58:35.520 Oh, I'm, I failed to see the forest through the trees on that one.

00:58:40.520 Oh, again.

00:58:42.520 So that's the Phil Houston twist.

00:58:44.520 The truth teller would, would have said, I wasn't there.

00:58:48.520 So she definitely did not see me.

00:58:50.520 That's, that's the fact that is the most, the best ally for the truthful person.

00:58:55.520 Tell the truth.

00:58:56.520 Tell the truth.

00:58:57.520 And, and in his case, he can't, the truth has consequences associated with it.

00:59:03.520 And that's what makes it difficult for him.

00:59:06.520 Now, now the advantage he has a little bit is he's been asked a lot of these questions over the years.

00:59:12.520 And so he has some frame of reference.

00:59:15.520 But what was different this time is somebody's talking to him in a, almost a kind way.

00:59:24.520 You know, you didn't, you weren't judgmental of him.

00:59:27.520 And that was really important.

00:59:29.520 So having watched Megan Wright and John Tanko talk about their relationship and their time together.

00:59:37.520 What takeaways?

00:59:38.520 If you assume for a moment that our assessment of John Tanko is correct.

00:59:45.520 And then you look at what Megan is saying about him.

00:59:51.520 She clearly is trying to distance herself from him.

00:59:56.520 It appears likely so much so that it appears likely to me that she knows what he's been up to.

01:00:04.520 And likely she knows what happened that night.

01:00:08.520 And as a result, she doesn't want to go down if he, if he is, you know, if Tanko is finally arrested, you know, uncovered or identified as the perpetrator and is, is arrested.

01:00:23.520 Then she would then become a co-conspirator.

01:00:26.520 And, and, and she realizes that, so she's trying to leave the impression in everyone's mind that she has nothing to do with him.

01:00:35.520 She, she, and, and, you know, long before, you know, the baby went missing, she had nothing to do with him.

01:00:41.520 And she's trying to create that image. 1.00

01:00:44.520 That was by design.

01:00:45.520 Well, when you ask Tanko any questions about Megan Wright, he becomes very protective of her.

01:00:53.520 He immediately says, no, she's not involved.

01:00:56.520 And, and exonerates her.

01:00:58.520 And I believe he's doing that because he knows that she knows.

01:01:03.520 And it was what she knows.

01:01:06.520 And as a result, he has no choice but to defend her.

01:01:11.520 Oh, that's very interesting.

01:01:13.520 She wasn't sounding that way about him, however.

01:01:17.520 Like, I don't know what he's capable of.

01:01:19.520 It was more her line.

01:01:20.520 Yeah.

01:01:21.520 Yeah.

01:01:22.520 He has no choice but to defend her.

01:01:24.520 She has other options.

01:01:25.520 She isn't the person that actually did it.

01:01:27.520 That would be so interesting, Phil.

01:01:31.520 Fascinating talking to you.

01:01:33.520 Okay.

01:01:34.520 Now we're going to bring in Jim Spellman.

01:01:36.520 Very excited to have Jim Spellman with us, a reporter of CNN at the time this story broke,

01:01:41.520 now independent.

01:01:42.520 And Jim, you've been watching this whole thing.

01:01:45.520 You've been watching the series.

01:01:46.520 You've been working with us on this.

01:01:48.520 What did you make of this exchange with John Tanko?

01:01:51.520 Well, first off, I want to echo the kudos to you, Bill, and your crew for forgetting this

01:01:56.520 and going in there.

01:01:57.520 That was not easy.

01:01:58.520 And it definitely took guts and courage to do it.

01:02:01.520 Well done.

01:02:02.520 This struck me as somebody, remember, he didn't know you were recording him, who's

01:02:07.520 scared that the next visitor is going to have a badge on them right after them.

01:02:11.520 And he was working whatever he could to try to find out what you might know and then to

01:02:16.520 feed back something that's going to make him look good.

01:02:18.520 I mentioned this earlier in a previous interview, Megan, but I'm in recovery.

01:02:22.520 I'll use crystal meth, smoke crack cocaine, etc.

01:02:25.520 23 years I've been clean last year.

01:02:27.520 And I work on a near daily basis with addicts in recovery.

01:02:31.520 And there's a kind of person who does nothing but lie.

01:02:35.520 Even when there's no reason to lie, they lie.

01:02:38.520 You ask him what color a blue car is, they'll say red.

01:02:41.520 And this strikes me like that kind of person who just immediately is on the hustle, immediately

01:02:46.520 is trying to weave something that's going to help him come out better at the end of the day.

01:02:52.520 And, you know, with the phones, with the phone question, this really is maybe focus on the

01:02:59.520 investigation back in Kansas City and by the FBI and why at this point they have not told

01:03:05.520 us why they moved on from John Tango, why they have not revealed all of the details about the

01:03:11.520 phone.

01:03:12.520 And I think when this show comes out, it will be negligent if the chief of police there, Stacey

01:03:20.520 Graves doesn't immediately appoint a new detective that was not involved to make this a high profile

01:03:26.520 cold case, release whatever information they can that doesn't jeopardize an investigation

01:03:32.520 and bring this into the public eye again.

01:03:35.520 And I would include men fences with the family.

01:03:38.520 I don't know who was responsible for that division, but it wasn't Lisa.

01:03:42.520 And she deserves better than that.

01:03:44.520 And this investigation should be immediately reopened in a vigorous way.

01:03:48.520 Well said.

01:03:50.520 I couldn't agree with what you just said more.

01:03:52.520 And that's really our goal is to have somebody just take a fresh look at the case, fresh eyes,

01:03:57.520 new eyes, take a look at the case.

01:03:59.520 He told us for the first time there that he had not been cleared by law enforcement.

01:04:07.520 That was an interesting admission.

01:04:09.520 I think he didn't know that I believed he had been cleared.

01:04:14.520 Otherwise, maybe he would have just gone with that.

01:04:16.520 But because I asked it in an open ended way, like, were you cleared?

01:04:19.520 And he said, no, no one ever told me that.

01:04:21.520 I thought that was very interesting.

01:04:23.520 And the police in Kansas City and the FBI on occasion told me they used the language they had moved on.

01:04:30.520 Right.

01:04:31.520 From John Tango.

01:04:32.520 Never, of course, being absolute about it.

01:04:34.520 But I think it's clear they have because look where he is.

01:04:37.520 You know, and I mean, none of these people have faced any kind of serious, you know, investigation that they know after those initial weeks and months.

01:04:47.520 Lives have just gone on.

01:04:49.520 People's lives have gone on while the family and Lisa's are in suspended animation.

01:04:55.520 You know, why else, Jim, would there be a 10 year gap between the last time the Kansas City police called Jeremy or Deborah and today?

01:05:05.520 It's inexcusable no matter what they did or what the police did.

01:05:11.520 Somebody's got to get over this.

01:05:13.520 Right.

01:05:14.520 And I think as part of reopening the case, the Kansas City police need to deal with the media, take their lumps and get this case, you know, back out there.

01:05:24.520 You know, no one's going to come off looking great if they reopen this in a sort of more high profile way.

01:05:29.520 But what other way is there to jog memories, to convince the community there in Kansas City that their children are being cared for, that they matter than to start getting some of this stuff out there?

01:05:42.520 One of the things I was really surprised to hear Deborah say was that they had taken hair from them to test for for drugs.

01:05:50.520 So if they if that's true and it was negative, then why would the police not release that at this point?

01:05:56.520 Why not put out whatever can be put out there that can close down avenues that people are discussing and maybe just somehow jog some other memory of somebody?

01:06:05.520 You know, that may know somebody who knows somebody, maybe it's not Tanko, but someone who is tangential to Tanko.

01:06:11.520 Maybe not somebody who was in the house, but someone that was near and around the house that day.

01:06:16.520 Somebody knows something. There has to be a nexus to this house to know there's a baby there to know that Jeremy's working that night.

01:06:24.520 Something has to happen to change this.

01:06:26.520 It's just unacceptable that it's up to people like you and people like Bill to be on this guy's lawn and not a much larger investigation.

01:06:35.520 And, you know, it's really chilling is here we are all these years later.

01:06:39.520 They've never found remains of any kind.

01:06:42.520 And, you know, if this were a murder, an intentional murder, an accidental death, let's face it, whoever did it of the characters we're talking about, you wouldn't think that these are, you know, sophisticated criminals who actually managed to avoid the police detection and then got rid of the body in a way that very few criminals are able to.

01:07:01.300 Or it never got dug up by a dog, never came up if it had been put in the water, you know, like we saw with Lacey Peterson, like this is the one criminal who managed in just that short window of time to conduct the perfect crime.

01:07:15.040 No, no DNA, no fingerprints, no proof of any kind, disposed of the body in the way that it never came back.

01:07:21.020 So there is a real possibility, if you look at that, that she wasn't killed.

01:07:26.460 We haven't really talked about it that much, but that she really wasn't killed and that she was either sold or given to somebody or showed up on the doorstep of a firehouse in some other town that would make some more sense given the absence of a body.

01:07:42.900 And remember the investigation in those early days and weeks, the amount of searches of woods in that area, when the address came up, the area, the intersection that Cindy Short says he reported that the phone was right, I immediately put that into Google and looked at images.

01:07:58.960 One of the very first live shots I did when the first weekend of this case was a big search right there that included the National Guard and the FBI of that area.

01:08:09.440 And all of those similar areas that kind of are, you know, around this neighborhood that have open woods or something were heavily searched in that kind of search that would find any type of remains or something.

01:08:21.280 So I think that it's extremely unlikely that, you know, out in public, you know, woods or anything that, you know, there were any remains to be found within a, within a mile or two radius of the house.

01:08:32.440 You're amazing. Thank you so much for the great work you've done on this. You've been a highlight of every episode. It's been a pleasure.

01:08:38.500 And Jim, Jim, thank you. And, you know, sharing that, you know, once an addict, you're shown that it can be overcome and it is debilitating and you overcame it and you just add that much more character to everything you do. Thank you.

01:08:53.680 Thanks, Bill.

01:08:54.520 Yes, indeed, Jim. Thanks a ton. It's a pleasure to meet you.

01:08:57.660 And that's the conclusion for now of our Megan Kelly Investigates series, but it's not the end.

01:09:02.880 So we would love to hear from you and from your questions and feedback, we will put together an episode six.

01:09:09.640 Remember, we did this with the Idaho murders and it worked out really well. 0.99

01:09:13.440 And then we will bring you that episode in a couple of weeks.

01:09:16.620 What do you think happened? What's your theory?

01:09:19.200 What do you find persuasive? Who did you believe? Who did you not?

01:09:22.920 And do you have any actual leads, especially if you live in the Kansas City area or even if you don't?

01:09:30.500 You might know one of the players. You might know something you want to share with us.

01:09:35.040 Please send your thoughts to me. It's Megan, M-E-G-Y-N at MeganKelley.com.

01:09:40.660 We will be reviewing all of your emails just as we always do.

01:09:43.980 And I thank you sincerely for joining us along this journey. We'll see you soon.

01:09:49.700 If you're watching right now, please take a look at this picture of Lisa as she might look now.

01:09:54.800 If you're listening, you can see the photo on YouTube or just go to MeganKelley.com.

01:09:59.100 If you see her or think you might have any information that can help find her, please write to me.

01:10:05.760 The address is Megan, M-E-G-Y-N at MeganKelley.com.

01:10:10.020 You can also pass along tips on the baby Lisa story to the Kansas City Police Department

01:10:14.980 or encourage them to get active on this case.

01:10:20.380 That would be very helpful.

01:10:21.940 Reach out at KCCrimestoppers.com, KCCrimestoppers.com, or call them at 816-474-TIPS, T-I-P-S.

01:10:34.140 That's 816-474-8477.

01:10:38.600 There has never been a better time to take control of your health, and it all starts in the gut.

01:10:47.140 Processed foods, stress at work, fluoride in the water, even toxins in the air you breathe

01:10:51.480 can overwhelm your digestive system.

01:10:54.040 Our bodies are literally being attacked on a daily basis.

01:10:56.960 So what can we do to fight back?

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01:11:24.440 For over a decade, Just Thrive has been fighting to help make Americans healthier

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01:11:42.720 That's justthrivehealth.com, promo code M-E-G-Y-N.

01:11:46.500 Parents, too many kids today are not learning the real history of America.

01:11:50.540 Schools are pushing revisionist narratives or skipping over key ideas altogether.

01:11:55.040 That's why the Tuttle Twins America's History Books are so important.

01:11:58.600 These story-based books bring our history to life, the good, the bad, and the inspirational,

01:12:04.260 so your kids can understand not only the truth about our founders and the Constitution,

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01:12:12.280 Give your children the education they deserve.

01:12:14.860 Don't wait.

01:12:15.380 Go to tuttletwins.com slash history right now, and grab your set of America's history books.

01:12:21.920 If we don't teach the next generation what really happened, no one will.

01:12:25.720 Visit tuttletwins.com slash history today.

The Megyn Kelly Show - March 14, 2025

Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates： Baby Lisa's Disappearance ｜ Ep. 1026

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