The Megyn Kelly Show - The D.C. Sniper： A Megyn Kelly Show True Crime Special

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00:00:30.660 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:32.560 Your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:42.000 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:43.660 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:45.280 Today we are looking back at one of the most chilling

00:00:47.480 shooting sprees in our nation's history.

00:00:51.620 It was just over one year after 9-11.

00:00:54.220 And for three weeks in October of 2002,

00:00:57.280 the D.C. area was under siege.

00:01:00.000 No one, no one, it seemed, was safe.

00:01:03.920 Attacks targeted people from every walk of life

00:01:05.880 doing the most common of tasks.

00:01:08.300 Pumping gas, shopping, mowing the lawn,

00:01:12.240 just walking, just walking down the street.

00:01:15.660 At first, law enforcement thought the shooter

00:01:17.460 was likely a white, older man,

00:01:19.400 perhaps with military experience.

00:01:21.280 But as they pieced together the clues,

00:01:23.640 the reality was much different.

00:01:25.500 Today we are going to take a fascinating look

00:01:28.020 into the Beltway Sniper case,

00:01:30.620 and we are thrilled to be joined by someone

00:01:32.400 who was working for the FBI at that time.

00:01:35.900 Jim Clemente is truly a living legend

00:01:38.340 whose own personal story is also fascinating.

00:01:40.820 He's a former FBI profiler

00:01:42.380 who went on to bring his expertise to the small screen

00:01:45.140 and now has a number of exciting projects

00:01:47.740 that we'll get into in a bit.

00:01:49.160 Jim Clemente, welcome to the show.

00:01:55.360 Very great to be here.

00:01:56.780 I really appreciate all the work that you do,

00:01:59.260 getting out all this amazing, true crime.

00:02:02.420 Oh, Jim, thank you for saying that from you.

00:02:04.360 That's a great compliment

00:02:05.100 because I know you've devoted your life

00:02:06.300 to catching bad guys and talking about it

00:02:08.580 and helping people understand the process

00:02:10.000 and how it's done.

00:02:11.680 I've learned from you

00:02:12.560 and our listeners and viewers are about to as well

00:02:15.040 if they haven't caught your work yet.

00:02:16.820 But this case, I remember this so well,

00:02:19.920 I was just about to move to the D.C. area.

00:02:23.060 Wow.

00:02:23.560 And so I was watching it, you know, with great interest

00:02:25.780 and thankfully had not yet gotten there.

00:02:27.920 But the thing that was just so terrifying about it was

00:02:30.780 there was no way of preventing

00:02:32.840 other than staying in your house all day

00:02:35.520 and not doing any of the normal things you would do.

00:02:38.140 There was absolutely no way of preventing it

00:02:39.940 from happening to you

00:02:40.860 because like I say, it could literally have been

00:02:43.180 you were just walking down the street

00:02:45.260 that there was no method, it seemed,

00:02:47.920 to how they chose their victims.

00:02:50.500 Yeah, there was a very random process going on.

00:02:53.000 And with snipers, that's generally the case.

00:02:56.440 Snipers will actually have absolutely no relationship

00:02:59.700 to their victims.

00:03:00.940 They actually choose a method of operation

00:03:03.560 that distances themselves from their victims.

00:03:07.180 They want to feel like God,

00:03:09.320 taking life from afar and above.

00:03:11.000 And because of that,

00:03:12.920 they typically pick random victims

00:03:15.340 that just happen into their purview.

00:03:17.600 But in that case, when that was going on,

00:03:20.160 there were so many people

00:03:22.160 who were putting up double blankets

00:03:25.440 over all their windows in their houses,

00:03:27.280 who were, when they went to,

00:03:29.080 had to go to the grocery store,

00:03:30.380 were pulling up right next to the front

00:03:32.220 or actually crawl walking into the grocery stores

00:03:35.780 or while they're getting gas.

00:03:37.560 It was a terrifying time

00:03:38.900 in that whole Washington, D.C. area.

00:03:41.320 It's not like today, you know,

00:03:42.940 when post-COVID ordering your groceries

00:03:45.740 is not uncommon.

00:03:47.420 People know how to do that.

00:03:48.500 They know how to do most things

00:03:49.520 without leaving their house.

00:03:51.100 The world has now been set up to allow that.

00:03:53.560 Back then, you had to leave the house.

00:03:55.740 You had to go outside, you know?

00:03:57.580 And it was like places like Michael's.

00:04:00.200 You know, who hasn't been to Michael's,

00:04:01.780 you know, to go get whatever,

00:04:03.340 a baking tray for the holiday cookies

00:04:05.380 you're making or something?

00:04:06.480 Home Depot, exactly, or your gas.

00:04:09.700 You know, it's like I read to,

00:04:11.400 and I didn't remember this from the time,

00:04:12.720 but some gas station owners

00:04:13.980 were setting up big tarps around the area

00:04:16.800 where you'd pump your gas

00:04:18.140 so that you could feel confident

00:04:19.780 no one would shoot you.

00:04:22.200 That it was a month of hell.

00:04:24.800 It was.

00:04:25.580 It was the most direct, horrific,

00:04:32.160 terroristic event since 9-11.

00:04:34.560 And it was seen as,

00:04:37.420 since it was within a year

00:04:38.880 of when 9-11 happened,

00:04:40.700 it was seen as potentially

00:04:42.320 an extension of 9-11.

00:04:44.780 People thought that this could be

00:04:46.780 some outside terrorist

00:04:48.720 who was running amok

00:04:50.360 in the Washington, D.C. area,

00:04:52.560 particularly because D.C.

00:04:53.860 is such a political place,

00:04:55.980 and all these shootings happened

00:04:57.880 right around D.C.

00:04:59.120 and even right into D.C.

00:05:01.360 And those things got people worried,

00:05:04.040 especially people in the FBI.

00:05:06.320 Yeah, I remember it was like

00:05:07.600 the three things,

00:05:09.060 not to compare,

00:05:10.040 because 9-11 is in a class of its own,

00:05:11.780 but we had,

00:05:12.740 we suffered that terrorist attack.

00:05:14.140 Then the anthrax scare came,

00:05:16.660 and then within 12 months or so,

00:05:19.500 we're looking at the D.C. sniper attacks,

00:05:21.960 these seemingly at random,

00:05:24.520 and, you know,

00:05:25.000 people may remember 10 people died,

00:05:26.380 but 20 people were shot.

00:05:28.300 I mean, 13 as part of that one month,

00:05:30.700 but it actually wound up going

00:05:31.920 well beyond that,

00:05:32.720 which we'll get to.

00:05:33.500 Well beyond, yeah.

00:05:34.320 So it truly was terror,

00:05:37.180 events of terror back then,

00:05:39.040 and people wonder why,

00:05:40.520 you know, now,

00:05:41.040 at the benefit of hindsight,

00:05:42.020 we submitted to the security state,

00:05:44.060 you know,

00:05:44.260 the expansion of all these programs

00:05:45.820 and spying and so on.

00:05:47.420 We were scared.

00:05:49.440 Yeah, well, we were vulnerable,

00:05:50.900 and we had to do something as a country

00:05:52.940 to sort of counteract that.

00:05:54.920 I think 9-11 taught us

00:05:56.500 not only that we were vulnerable,

00:05:59.020 but that we were extremely lucky

00:06:01.680 because that attack could have killed

00:06:04.440 upwards of hundreds of thousands of people,

00:06:07.500 and to lose 3,000 lives on that day

00:06:10.420 was horrific,

00:06:12.160 and I'll never forget it,

00:06:15.620 but the fact is

00:06:17.460 there were 150,000 people

00:06:19.380 working in the World Trade Center alone,

00:06:21.220 and if one of those towers

00:06:22.480 had fallen sideways

00:06:23.940 instead of just collapsing on itself,

00:06:26.580 we don't know how many

00:06:28.100 hundreds of thousands of people

00:06:29.700 could have been killed.

00:06:30.800 Mm, you just gave me the chills.

00:06:32.380 You're so right.

00:06:33.800 But I do remember that feeling

00:06:35.800 of being terrorized,

00:06:38.120 and in a way,

00:06:39.780 the D.C. sniper brought it out

00:06:41.300 in people even more than 9-11.

00:06:43.320 Like, 9-11 seemed so extraordinary.

00:06:46.060 I don't know that we were worrying

00:06:47.500 that that would happen regularly.

00:06:49.820 You know, it was like such

00:06:50.860 an extraordinary attack by this man

00:06:53.180 we understood far away

00:06:54.800 in a cave in Afghanistan.

00:06:56.340 It took extraordinary amounts

00:06:57.420 of planning and so on.

00:06:59.100 Right.

00:06:59.440 But the D.C. sniper

00:07:00.500 was getting person after person

00:07:03.260 after person,

00:07:04.580 day after day after day,

00:07:06.320 and very, very few clues to go on.

00:07:09.620 It's not like,

00:07:10.720 we think we got him,

00:07:11.740 or there's someone in custody.

00:07:12.880 It took almost the whole month

00:07:14.680 before it was like,

00:07:15.380 okay, so let's start at the beginning.

00:07:17.180 Let's start at the beginning.

00:07:18.020 Okay.

00:07:18.880 The first,

00:07:20.620 the first,

00:07:21.280 and we can then go back.

00:07:23.320 Let's just do the ones

00:07:24.160 that we experienced

00:07:24.900 as a nation together.

00:07:26.420 Okay.

00:07:26.880 Those 13 shootings,

00:07:28.620 10 of which resulted

00:07:29.680 in fatalities first.

00:07:31.480 Right.

00:07:31.780 And then we can go back

00:07:32.900 and take a look at what

00:07:34.040 was happening prior

00:07:35.840 to that spree.

00:07:37.140 Right.

00:07:37.680 Which helps put everything

00:07:38.920 into perspective.

00:07:40.220 Okay, I'm trying to get

00:07:41.200 my dates in front of me.

00:07:41.980 The first one,

00:07:43.500 October 2nd,

00:07:44.780 2002,

00:07:46.380 55-year-old James D. Martin,

00:07:49.280 a program analyst

00:07:50.240 for the National Oceanic

00:07:51.580 and Atmospheric Administration,

00:07:53.200 is shot

00:07:54.080 in the parking lot

00:07:55.640 of Shoppers Food Warehouse

00:07:58.280 in Wheaton, Maryland.

00:08:00.560 Now, at that point,

00:08:01.940 what did we know?

00:08:02.740 Did we know

00:08:03.320 this is like a killing for joy?

00:08:06.720 You know what I mean?

00:08:07.060 Did we think he had enemies?

00:08:08.700 What was known?

00:08:09.220 At this point,

00:08:10.800 it was,

00:08:11.840 there was obviously

00:08:13.040 a big question mark.

00:08:15.220 Was he singled out

00:08:17.160 because of his job?

00:08:18.440 He worked for the government.

00:08:20.180 I mean,

00:08:20.500 at least a government entity.

00:08:22.560 And because of that,

00:08:23.680 we weren't sure

00:08:24.540 whether this was

00:08:25.620 a politically motivated attack

00:08:27.920 or whether it is

00:08:29.300 a personal attack.

00:08:30.500 Right in the beginning,

00:08:31.400 we don't know.

00:08:32.560 we have to do

00:08:33.540 a deep dive

00:08:34.440 on victimology.

00:08:35.460 We have to understand

00:08:36.320 who this person is.

00:08:38.200 And right at the beginning,

00:08:40.080 his job stood out

00:08:41.480 as something

00:08:42.380 that could be

00:08:43.460 related to

00:08:44.680 some kind of

00:08:45.680 terroristic

00:08:46.480 government attack.

00:08:48.860 As it turns out,

00:08:50.440 in a very short period of time,

00:08:53.180 all hell would break loose.

00:08:55.400 And it would soon

00:08:56.420 become clear.

00:08:57.640 We're talking about

00:08:58.440 a small town,

00:09:00.000 you know,

00:09:00.860 in a county

00:09:02.280 that literally

00:09:03.860 never sees

00:09:05.180 this kind of

00:09:06.460 violent crime

00:09:09.120 when basically

00:09:11.080 in one day

00:09:13.140 their murder rate

00:09:15.360 is multiplied

00:09:16.800 by 50%.

00:09:19.580 Yeah.

00:09:20.400 Their entire year

00:09:21.900 they get in

00:09:23.100 in one day.

00:09:25.220 So in the beginning,

00:09:25.860 you're thinking,

00:09:26.420 like you say,

00:09:26.920 is it something to do

00:09:27.600 with his job?

00:09:28.340 What is it?

00:09:29.300 Let's look into

00:09:29.860 all of that.

00:09:30.580 But that lasted

00:09:31.480 about 24 hours

00:09:33.300 as far as I can see.

00:09:34.080 I mean,

00:09:34.340 it was less than a day

00:09:36.380 before the next

00:09:37.540 crime took place.

00:09:39.860 That was of a

00:09:40.400 39-year-old man,

00:09:42.260 landscaper

00:09:42.980 named James L. Buchanan.

00:09:45.440 Police were called

00:09:45.980 to the crime scene.

00:09:46.780 They found him.

00:09:48.100 He'd been fatally shot

00:09:49.440 while mowing a lawn

00:09:50.520 at a commercial

00:09:51.700 establishment

00:09:52.260 near Rockville, Maryland.

00:09:53.880 So now,

00:09:54.400 I mean,

00:09:54.620 at least one of the

00:09:55.280 other clues here is

00:09:56.160 this isn't about

00:09:57.140 class, right?

00:09:58.520 Now you've got

00:09:59.060 somebody who's

00:09:59.660 probably more

00:10:00.240 professionally educated.

00:10:01.740 Now you've got

00:10:02.460 a different guy

00:10:03.240 who mows lawns

00:10:04.360 for a living.

00:10:06.140 Both men,

00:10:07.480 one's almost 40,

00:10:08.660 one's 55,

00:10:10.960 and not,

00:10:11.740 I don't know,

00:10:12.280 but Rockville, Maryland

00:10:13.100 versus Wheaton, Maryland.

00:10:14.460 Not too far away, right?

00:10:15.820 Not too far.

00:10:16.800 They're neighboring towns.

00:10:18.360 But the thing about it

00:10:20.040 is that

00:10:20.580 we didn't know

00:10:22.080 right away

00:10:22.640 that these were related.

00:10:23.780 We had to,

00:10:25.220 I mean,

00:10:25.440 ballistics is what

00:10:26.480 actually created

00:10:27.840 that connection,

00:10:28.740 but it took a little while

00:10:30.020 to get the bullets

00:10:31.540 from both of these victims

00:10:32.740 and to match them

00:10:33.900 to the same,

00:10:34.780 being fired

00:10:35.260 from the same weapon.

00:10:36.440 The fact is that

00:10:37.660 when Buchanan's body

00:10:39.820 was found,

00:10:41.400 it was,

00:10:42.020 it looked like

00:10:42.680 it was an accident.

00:10:43.440 He was mowing lawn.

00:10:44.380 It looked like maybe

00:10:45.280 a rock kicked up

00:10:46.980 or some glass kicked up

00:10:48.160 and struck him,

00:10:48.960 but then it was determined

00:10:50.560 that he was actually shot.

00:10:51.840 And so now we have

00:10:53.260 two shootings

00:10:54.240 within a fairly short

00:10:56.680 geographic distance

00:10:57.880 in both in towns

00:10:59.400 where there wasn't

00:11:00.700 a lot of shootings.

00:11:01.700 So there's,

00:11:03.120 there's some connection

00:11:04.900 being drawn at this point.

00:11:06.260 The FBI is not involved

00:11:07.660 at this point yet.

00:11:08.860 It's a local police matter.

00:11:11.020 The Montgomery County

00:11:12.740 Police Department

00:11:14.020 or Montgomery County

00:11:16.780 Sheriff's Department

00:11:17.960 was brought in immediately.

00:11:20.500 And at that point

00:11:21.920 they were,

00:11:23.380 they had,

00:11:24.420 I think,

00:11:26.220 they had just a handful

00:11:27.820 of detectives

00:11:28.700 working for them.

00:11:29.560 And of course,

00:11:30.380 these detectives

00:11:31.300 would have to go

00:11:32.120 from one scene

00:11:33.140 to the next.

00:11:34.500 And of course,

00:11:35.340 normally they would get

00:11:36.740 one shooting

00:11:37.780 every several months.

00:11:39.840 And now they have

00:11:41.120 two shootings

00:11:41.900 within 24 hours,

00:11:43.940 27 hours maybe.

00:11:46.320 Do you remember

00:11:46.940 whether there were

00:11:47.720 eyewitnesses

00:11:48.760 this early?

00:11:49.820 You know,

00:11:50.200 I imagine they'd be asking,

00:11:51.660 did anybody see anything?

00:11:52.900 Like,

00:11:53.480 did anybody see anything?

00:11:55.440 Did anybody have something

00:11:56.300 to report on

00:11:57.020 how it went down?

00:11:58.920 There were a lot of,

00:12:00.340 there were a lot of people

00:12:01.660 interviewed.

00:12:02.480 And the,

00:12:03.440 the problem here

00:12:04.420 in this case

00:12:04.960 at this time

00:12:05.620 is that

00:12:06.360 whoever the shooter is,

00:12:08.780 he's a ghost.

00:12:09.940 Nobody sees him.

00:12:11.500 Nobody heard

00:12:12.700 exactly where the shot

00:12:13.980 came from

00:12:14.660 in the case

00:12:15.660 of the second shooting.

00:12:16.820 They didn't even know

00:12:17.600 a shot went off.

00:12:18.760 So there was

00:12:20.000 some confusion

00:12:21.160 at that point.

00:12:22.220 Of course,

00:12:22.980 there are people

00:12:24.100 who,

00:12:24.760 who were interviewed.

00:12:27.060 And this is something

00:12:28.000 that we have to deal

00:12:28.760 with all the time.

00:12:29.740 When people are interviewed

00:12:31.140 about something

00:12:32.600 as,

00:12:33.320 as horrible

00:12:35.400 as a murder,

00:12:36.220 sometimes

00:12:36.820 they will

00:12:38.620 sort of fill in blanks

00:12:40.000 that they don't really

00:12:40.640 have in their memory.

00:12:41.600 They will do this

00:12:42.440 either intentionally

00:12:43.220 or unintentionally.

00:12:44.320 And this can cause

00:12:45.600 an investigation

00:12:46.800 to go off

00:12:47.780 on tangents

00:12:48.820 and actually

00:12:49.460 really impede

00:12:50.720 a thorough

00:12:51.520 and quick investigation.

00:12:53.060 And we will start

00:12:54.280 to see that

00:12:54.920 very shortly

00:12:55.580 as these shootings

00:12:57.420 keep continuing.

00:13:00.180 I'm recalling

00:13:00.840 this story

00:13:01.380 of a law school

00:13:03.000 professor

00:13:03.400 who

00:13:04.680 got to class late,

00:13:07.400 said,

00:13:07.860 so sorry,

00:13:08.480 had a road rage incident,

00:13:09.980 lunatic on the street.

00:13:11.300 I'm fine.

00:13:12.060 Let's move on.

00:13:13.560 About 10 minutes later,

00:13:14.740 somebody shows up

00:13:15.540 frothing at the mouth

00:13:16.720 at the classroom door,

00:13:18.440 banging on the door,

00:13:19.420 threatening,

00:13:20.020 threatening.

00:13:21.260 Finally,

00:13:21.720 the guy comes in,

00:13:23.180 has a gun.

00:13:24.660 This is back

00:13:25.460 when I was in law school.

00:13:26.440 So,

00:13:26.660 you know,

00:13:26.940 early 90s

00:13:27.600 before we were,

00:13:28.500 you know,

00:13:29.140 crazy about,

00:13:30.980 you know,

00:13:31.300 this is a mass shooting.

00:13:32.260 There's a mass shooting.

00:13:32.920 There's a mass shooting.

00:13:35.300 Pulls out a gun.

00:13:36.400 Everybody says,

00:13:37.060 some people get down.

00:13:40.320 Some people cower.

00:13:42.320 People scream.

00:13:43.220 Uh,

00:13:43.780 before everybody

00:13:44.520 had a cell phone

00:13:45.180 and the professor

00:13:47.480 keeps yelling.

00:13:48.240 The guy runs out.

00:13:49.840 You know,

00:13:50.080 the intruder

00:13:50.600 runs out.

00:13:51.480 The professor

00:13:51.900 goes to run after him,

00:13:54.280 comes back

00:13:56.140 into the classroom

00:13:57.340 minutes later,

00:13:59.140 hands out a form

00:14:00.140 to everybody

00:14:01.180 in the classroom

00:14:01.980 and says,

00:14:02.560 write down everything

00:14:03.340 you remember

00:14:03.880 about the intruder.

00:14:05.260 It was all

00:14:06.740 a farce

00:14:07.560 and

00:14:09.100 today you would

00:14:10.500 get sued

00:14:10.880 by every single

00:14:11.560 student in that class.

00:14:13.560 Today you would,

00:14:14.080 but it's a great

00:14:14.920 teaching experiment

00:14:16.480 because it's,

00:14:17.640 it's a social

00:14:18.260 experiment really.

00:14:19.260 But what it is,

00:14:20.180 is trying to

00:14:21.960 demonstrate

00:14:22.560 the fallacy

00:14:23.960 that eyewitness

00:14:25.160 testimony

00:14:25.740 is actually accurate.

00:14:27.660 We do exactly

00:14:29.100 the same thing

00:14:29.960 in the FBI Academy

00:14:31.120 and the FBI

00:14:31.760 National Academy.

00:14:32.840 We actually

00:14:33.840 stage,

00:14:34.500 though,

00:14:35.000 actual bank

00:14:35.760 robberies,

00:14:36.320 for example,

00:14:36.760 for our students

00:14:37.860 to witness.

00:14:38.940 And they're there

00:14:39.900 on site

00:14:41.160 and you'll have

00:14:42.060 50 students,

00:14:43.360 either new agent

00:14:44.020 trainees

00:14:44.420 or advanced

00:14:45.660 police trainees

00:14:46.540 who are witnessing

00:14:47.960 exactly the same

00:14:49.160 event.

00:14:49.500 And then we do

00:14:50.580 sort of a,

00:14:51.300 a chart,

00:14:52.200 a,

00:14:52.440 a flow chart

00:14:53.480 of all the different

00:14:54.420 answers.

00:14:55.340 How many shots

00:14:56.340 were fired?

00:14:57.040 What color was the vehicle?

00:14:58.280 How many people

00:14:58.940 in the vehicle?

00:14:59.620 How long were they

00:15:00.320 in the bank?

00:15:00.840 How long did they,

00:15:01.780 they,

00:15:02.840 uh,

00:15:03.360 shoot when they came out?

00:15:04.860 How many shots

00:15:05.580 were fired then?

00:15:06.600 All of these details

00:15:08.000 and you will see

00:15:09.520 that they're all

00:15:10.480 over the place.

00:15:11.520 Right.

00:15:12.120 But then,

00:15:13.040 but then

00:15:13.980 we teach people,

00:15:16.260 these people

00:15:17.140 who professionally

00:15:18.300 have to

00:15:19.420 be able to

00:15:20.220 recount details

00:15:21.240 very well,

00:15:21.960 how to focus

00:15:23.020 and how to weed out

00:15:24.360 all the other,

00:15:25.160 other aspects

00:15:26.420 that can distract,

00:15:27.960 distract you.

00:15:28.900 Because when you're,

00:15:30.080 when you're involved

00:15:31.220 in a life situation

00:15:32.100 and then a violent crime

00:15:33.160 happens in front of you,

00:15:34.180 you didn't expect

00:15:35.140 it to happen.

00:15:36.100 You were expecting

00:15:36.900 to take notes

00:15:37.740 or to go to the store

00:15:39.080 or to pick up

00:15:40.340 your daughter

00:15:41.040 from school

00:15:41.700 and something else

00:15:43.400 intervene.

00:15:44.160 But all those other things

00:15:45.200 are still distracting you.

00:15:47.140 Right.

00:15:47.400 So that's the next level

00:15:48.740 for anybody training

00:15:49.620 to be

00:15:50.200 basically in your job,

00:15:52.380 which is to learn

00:15:53.680 to use all that adrenaline

00:15:54.660 for good

00:15:55.760 to pay hyper attention.

00:15:57.940 Yeah,

00:15:58.200 it's to focus.

00:15:59.240 And I remember

00:15:59.680 my colleague,

00:16:01.040 we wound up

00:16:01.540 practicing law together

00:16:02.260 and she used

00:16:03.760 to be a nurse

00:16:04.420 before she went

00:16:05.380 to law school.

00:16:06.000 And so this had happened

00:16:06.640 to her in her law school.

00:16:08.100 And it was a great,

00:16:10.020 because somebody else

00:16:10.680 was there

00:16:11.040 who had witnessed

00:16:12.020 her behavior

00:16:12.580 and they were telling me

00:16:13.620 that she,

00:16:14.500 her name was Sandy,

00:16:15.860 unlike virtually

00:16:16.420 everybody in the class

00:16:17.320 having been a nurse

00:16:18.600 was used to

00:16:20.060 trauma situations.

00:16:21.680 And so while like

00:16:22.880 some of the big male

00:16:23.840 burly guys in the class

00:16:25.560 were underneath

00:16:26.380 their desks,

00:16:27.540 she was like,

00:16:28.320 you over there,

00:16:29.000 there was a guy

00:16:29.360 in a wheelchair

00:16:29.800 near the front door.

00:16:30.560 She's like,

00:16:30.900 get him away

00:16:31.420 from that front door.

00:16:32.420 You move there,

00:16:33.120 you move this.

00:16:34.020 She totally took command.

00:16:35.680 It's this,

00:16:35.940 you know,

00:16:36.220 diminutive.

00:16:36.800 Sounds like she had

00:16:37.560 special forces training.

00:16:39.360 She just,

00:16:40.420 she'd been through trauma.

00:16:41.860 And of course,

00:16:42.300 the point of the story

00:16:42.940 is their eyewitness

00:16:44.200 identifications

00:16:45.000 were horrible,

00:16:46.460 horrible.

00:16:47.260 You know,

00:16:47.480 it's like man

00:16:48.400 wearing a big yellow

00:16:49.760 Morton salt jacket,

00:16:51.240 man wearing lumberjack,

00:16:52.740 you know,

00:16:53.060 shirt,

00:16:54.100 a woman.

00:16:54.840 Some people said

00:16:55.260 it was a woman.

00:16:56.000 It's so unreliable.

00:16:59.080 So yes,

00:16:59.400 to your point,

00:17:00.020 the eyewitness IDs,

00:17:01.800 you can't put that much

00:17:02.880 stock in them

00:17:03.840 unless you get the miracle

00:17:04.880 of holy cow,

00:17:06.200 they're all identical.

00:17:07.380 They really did get

00:17:08.260 a look at this person.

00:17:10.120 Well,

00:17:10.520 and again,

00:17:11.100 it's going to be

00:17:12.160 a filtering out process

00:17:14.080 and that's what we do

00:17:15.260 when we do all these

00:17:16.060 mass interviews

00:17:16.900 when we're,

00:17:17.600 when we're doing

00:17:18.260 sort of neighborhood

00:17:19.380 canvases and so forth.

00:17:20.720 We want to ask

00:17:21.820 exactly the same questions

00:17:23.400 and then we can measure

00:17:24.320 the answers

00:17:25.020 against each other.

00:17:26.280 If you don't have

00:17:27.260 a form for that

00:17:28.700 and every officer

00:17:29.820 is out

00:17:30.320 asking different questions,

00:17:31.980 you can never really

00:17:33.080 find out

00:17:33.980 which people

00:17:34.960 are telling the truth

00:17:35.740 and which people aren't.

00:17:36.980 And again,

00:17:37.300 it might be

00:17:38.020 unintentional.

00:17:39.680 In other words,

00:17:40.240 some people

00:17:41.300 believe

00:17:42.080 that they are

00:17:43.180 actually recounting

00:17:44.580 what happened

00:17:45.360 but what happens

00:17:46.600 is memory

00:17:47.800 is not

00:17:48.480 a digital

00:17:49.820 video

00:17:50.480 of

00:17:51.640 this

00:17:52.680 event.

00:17:53.980 Memory

00:17:54.240 is stored

00:17:55.720 in several

00:17:56.460 different areas.

00:17:57.380 Each one of your senses

00:17:58.340 has the ability

00:17:59.540 to store information

00:18:00.820 from a memory

00:18:01.580 in a different part

00:18:02.660 of your brain

00:18:03.200 and in order

00:18:03.920 to remember it,

00:18:05.060 you have to pull

00:18:05.660 those pieces together.

00:18:07.300 If there's a piece

00:18:07.960 missing,

00:18:08.700 if you don't remember

00:18:09.600 what it sounded like

00:18:10.760 or what somebody

00:18:11.320 looked like

00:18:11.940 or how tall

00:18:12.580 somebody was,

00:18:14.480 your brain

00:18:15.140 will fill in

00:18:16.080 what you expect.

00:18:17.660 And if you're

00:18:18.000 focusing only

00:18:18.940 on that gun,

00:18:19.740 which many times

00:18:20.500 people say

00:18:21.180 that gun barrel

00:18:22.200 looked massive

00:18:23.400 when the gun

00:18:24.480 was pointing at them

00:18:25.360 and it focuses

00:18:26.740 your attention

00:18:27.400 on that

00:18:28.000 and away from

00:18:28.880 the features

00:18:29.520 of the person

00:18:30.140 that are right

00:18:30.720 in front of you.

00:18:31.700 But we've developed

00:18:32.700 ways of actually

00:18:33.940 maximizing

00:18:34.640 the ability

00:18:35.640 of somebody

00:18:36.140 to recall things.

00:18:37.700 Really?

00:18:37.920 Yeah,

00:18:39.000 we developed

00:18:39.540 cognitive interviewing

00:18:40.620 and basically

00:18:42.460 it's a way

00:18:43.100 to get people

00:18:43.940 to relax

00:18:44.800 and to put

00:18:46.700 themselves back

00:18:47.520 into the situation

00:18:48.460 in a non-threatening

00:18:49.960 way and then

00:18:51.340 we engage

00:18:52.080 all of their senses,

00:18:53.700 not just

00:18:54.680 their sight and sound.

00:18:55.880 Most people

00:18:56.300 will recount events

00:18:57.320 through sight and sound

00:18:58.460 but they won't tell you

00:18:59.960 what the temperature

00:19:00.700 was like on that day,

00:19:01.760 what smells

00:19:02.660 came into their nose

00:19:03.880 while this was happening.

00:19:04.700 Smells are big.

00:19:05.580 But if you bring

00:19:06.540 those things back,

00:19:07.920 it's like linking

00:19:09.340 up a chain

00:19:11.180 in your brain

00:19:12.520 to all the different

00:19:13.640 parts of your memory

00:19:14.640 and you can pull

00:19:16.320 them out more easily.

00:19:17.760 So we try to do that

00:19:19.080 without any suggestion

00:19:20.140 but we do

00:19:21.560 certain techniques

00:19:22.780 to get people

00:19:23.560 to think about it.

00:19:24.680 One of the ways

00:19:25.560 is to get them

00:19:27.160 to tell us

00:19:27.960 what happened

00:19:28.600 the first thing

00:19:29.300 in the morning

00:19:29.720 and go detail

00:19:31.060 by detail

00:19:31.760 what they did

00:19:32.480 that morning.

00:19:33.380 So by the time

00:19:34.060 they get to the event,

00:19:35.800 their brain

00:19:36.300 is already used

00:19:37.320 to recounting

00:19:38.380 a lot of detail

00:19:39.360 and again

00:19:40.300 getting all that

00:19:41.460 sensory information

00:19:42.500 involved

00:19:42.960 just ramps up

00:19:44.380 the ability

00:19:45.260 of somebody

00:19:45.780 to remember something.

00:19:47.040 For example,

00:19:47.520 if I said

00:19:48.680 tell me about Thanksgiving

00:19:50.300 at your home

00:19:51.300 when you were a kid,

00:19:52.560 one of the first

00:19:53.540 things you'll remember

00:19:54.380 is the family

00:19:55.080 being together,

00:19:55.900 the smells

00:19:56.480 of the turkey cooking,

00:19:57.800 everybody being together,

00:19:59.080 the mood,

00:20:00.620 the ambience,

00:20:01.340 the how people

00:20:03.240 were situated

00:20:04.140 around the table,

00:20:05.460 all those kinds

00:20:06.360 of things

00:20:06.840 will help you

00:20:07.980 have a much more

00:20:08.780 rich experience

00:20:09.800 when you try

00:20:10.800 to recall that

00:20:11.560 and that's what

00:20:12.460 we try to do

00:20:13.000 about crimes too.

00:20:14.000 That's good stuff.

00:20:15.700 I mean,

00:20:15.940 who hasn't had

00:20:16.520 the experience

00:20:17.100 of you,

00:20:18.800 they're out of

00:20:19.240 your deodorant

00:20:20.060 when you're at the store

00:20:20.900 so you get something

00:20:22.360 that's a one-off

00:20:23.900 and then when you

00:20:25.080 put it on

00:20:25.700 you're like,

00:20:26.220 summer 1986.

00:20:28.740 You know,

00:20:29.080 it's like you

00:20:29.480 you don't necessarily

00:20:30.580 know the date

00:20:31.080 but you know

00:20:31.960 you've had it before

00:20:32.840 and just the smell

00:20:34.280 takes you back

00:20:34.920 to that place.

00:20:35.640 Yeah,

00:20:35.800 your smell,

00:20:36.600 your sense of smell

00:20:37.380 is the most directly

00:20:38.540 wired to your brain.

00:20:39.840 There's only one synapse

00:20:41.060 between the nerves

00:20:42.080 that end coming

00:20:43.200 from your nose

00:20:44.120 and getting to your brain

00:20:46.260 so because of that

00:20:47.740 it's one of the most

00:20:49.180 incredible ways

00:20:51.340 to recall something

00:20:52.640 just by smell.

00:20:54.860 Oh,

00:20:55.380 this is a fascinating

00:20:56.380 side journey.

00:20:57.200 We could do a whole show

00:20:57.860 just on this.

00:20:59.480 All right,

00:20:59.860 so back to the D.C.

00:21:00.840 Back to murder.

00:21:01.740 Yeah,

00:21:02.020 back to the D.C.

00:21:02.760 sniper.

00:21:03.120 So you mentioned ballistics.

00:21:05.700 So how long does it take

00:21:07.640 to get the ball?

00:21:08.920 I mean,

00:21:09.100 in a situation like that

00:21:10.180 where now we've had

00:21:10.980 a shooting on October 2nd

00:21:12.700 and the very next day

00:21:13.780 James L. Buchanan,

00:21:15.160 the 39-year-old landscaper,

00:21:16.460 gets shot.

00:21:18.080 Could you possibly

00:21:18.940 have much information

00:21:20.580 on the ballistics

00:21:21.140 that quickly?

00:21:22.260 Not yet.

00:21:23.060 First of all,

00:21:23.700 there are two different towns

00:21:24.880 and then the shootings

00:21:27.140 happened,

00:21:27.880 the first six shootings

00:21:29.580 happened within 27 hours.

00:21:31.620 So it wasn't literally

00:21:33.320 till towards the end

00:21:34.700 of that 27 hours

00:21:35.820 that we started

00:21:36.700 to get information

00:21:37.520 that these were all,

00:21:39.000 they all seemed

00:21:40.160 to be a ballistic match

00:21:41.680 and then that was

00:21:42.720 confirmed shortly thereafter.

00:21:44.440 But when you start seeing

00:21:46.740 then shooting

00:21:48.540 after shooting,

00:21:49.700 you can start,

00:21:51.300 because it's such

00:21:52.180 an anomaly in this area,

00:21:53.660 to have a sniper shooting.

00:21:56.040 In other words,

00:21:56.860 there were shootings

00:21:58.360 in this county,

00:21:59.760 but these shootings

00:22:01.480 were typically

00:22:02.160 with a handgun

00:22:03.120 by someone

00:22:04.080 who was right in front

00:22:05.460 of the person

00:22:06.060 and there is some kind

00:22:07.680 of ongoing dispute

00:22:08.660 or a robbery gone bad,

00:22:11.340 an armed robbery gone bad.

00:22:12.980 This kind of shooting,

00:22:14.240 where there's a sniper

00:22:15.060 who is completely

00:22:16.100 distanced

00:22:17.380 and invisible

00:22:19.480 to everybody.

00:22:21.960 That is something

00:22:23.480 that's a very unique thing

00:22:24.900 and just that behavior

00:22:26.120 in and of itself

00:22:27.020 started to link

00:22:28.400 these crimes

00:22:29.160 by MO.

00:22:31.160 So we talked about

00:22:33.180 the first two,

00:22:34.000 that October 3rd

00:22:35.160 was the big day.

00:22:36.020 There was just

00:22:36.500 the one

00:22:37.980 on October 2nd,

00:22:39.080 though right before

00:22:39.820 that first killing,

00:22:40.780 there had been a shot

00:22:41.800 fired through a window

00:22:42.760 at Michael's craft store

00:22:44.160 in Aspen Hill, Maryland,

00:22:45.760 but no one was hit.

00:22:47.580 Okay, so now we have

00:22:48.640 two victims.

00:22:49.560 Later that same day,

00:22:50.360 October 3rd,

00:22:51.840 Premkumar Walakar,

00:22:54.380 52,

00:22:55.040 a part-time cab driver,

00:22:56.760 killed while pumping gas

00:22:58.840 in the Aspen Hill area

00:23:00.840 of Montgomery County, Maryland.

00:23:03.520 Again, that's where

00:23:04.040 the first,

00:23:04.760 that's where that Michael's was.

00:23:06.440 That's number three.

00:23:07.660 Then October 4th,

00:23:09.040 October 3rd,

00:23:09.780 again,

00:23:10.140 Sarah Ramos,

00:23:10.900 34,

00:23:11.440 now it's a woman,

00:23:12.720 Silver Spring, Maryland,

00:23:13.520 killed at a post office.

00:23:15.560 A witness reports

00:23:16.500 seeing a white van

00:23:17.860 or a truck

00:23:18.620 speed away

00:23:20.040 from the post office

00:23:20.720 parking lot

00:23:21.120 immediately after the shooting.

00:23:22.140 And we'll get back

00:23:22.520 to that white van

00:23:23.040 in one second.

00:23:24.060 Then comes number five,

00:23:26.540 October 3rd,

00:23:27.140 still,

00:23:27.580 Laurieann Lewis Rivera,

00:23:28.740 25.

00:23:29.400 Again,

00:23:29.600 now that now

00:23:29.920 we're on to young women

00:23:30.680 of Silver Spring, Maryland,

00:23:31.920 shot dead

00:23:32.380 at a Shell gas station

00:23:33.680 in Kensington.

00:23:35.040 And then number six,

00:23:36.220 October 3rd,

00:23:36.880 2002.

00:23:37.420 This is the only one

00:23:39.760 in Washington, D.C.

00:23:41.520 Pascal Charlotte,

00:23:42.800 just over the line, right.

00:23:44.060 Yeah,

00:23:44.420 72 years old,

00:23:45.940 shot in the chest

00:23:46.840 as he just walked

00:23:48.200 down Georgia Avenue,

00:23:50.080 taken to a hospital

00:23:50.680 where he dies

00:23:51.160 less than an hour later.

00:23:52.080 That last one,

00:23:53.320 number six,

00:23:54.740 the first shooting

00:23:55.720 to occur at night.

00:23:57.440 The others,

00:23:58.240 I had forgotten

00:23:59.240 about this,

00:24:00.540 were all

00:24:01.180 in broad daylight.

00:24:03.400 That's crazy.

00:24:04.940 It is crazy.

00:24:05.840 And what it does

00:24:07.100 is it tells us

00:24:08.100 immediately

00:24:08.820 as profilers

00:24:10.040 that the person

00:24:11.420 who did this

00:24:12.380 had a high level

00:24:13.940 of criminal sophistication.

00:24:15.520 And what does that mean?

00:24:16.980 Well,

00:24:17.300 it means he knows

00:24:18.260 how to plan

00:24:19.620 and execute his crimes.

00:24:21.440 Another thing

00:24:22.000 that we saw,

00:24:22.880 now you have

00:24:23.500 six shots,

00:24:25.120 six kills

00:24:26.040 within 27 hours,

00:24:28.700 a very tight

00:24:29.700 time frame.

00:24:30.940 Generally,

00:24:31.720 this kind of shooting

00:24:33.200 would be labeled

00:24:34.520 a spree.

00:24:35.120 In other words,

00:24:36.500 an offender

00:24:37.100 who is going off

00:24:38.320 and just killing

00:24:39.180 as many people

00:24:40.200 as he or she can

00:24:41.420 in a row.

00:24:43.040 But generally,

00:24:44.340 when we see that,

00:24:45.840 when we have

00:24:46.420 a shooting spree,

00:24:47.900 we see some level

00:24:49.440 of decompensation

00:24:50.620 in the shooter,

00:24:51.960 in his skills,

00:24:52.940 in his planning.

00:24:54.100 Things just don't go

00:24:55.500 according to plan

00:24:56.480 and things start

00:24:57.420 falling apart.

00:24:58.440 He might have to

00:24:59.240 carjack somebody's car

00:25:00.340 to get away.

00:25:01.000 He might have to

00:25:01.960 shoot out with the police

00:25:03.380 or somebody else

00:25:04.260 who pulls a gun

00:25:04.940 on him.

00:25:06.300 None of that

00:25:06.860 happened here.

00:25:07.940 So we felt

00:25:08.600 that this offender,

00:25:10.360 while he was

00:25:11.260 certainly

00:25:12.640 in,

00:25:14.000 had to be

00:25:14.680 in his

00:25:15.300 late 30s

00:25:16.560 or early 40s

00:25:17.640 at least,

00:25:18.680 that he had

00:25:19.840 some kind

00:25:20.600 of military

00:25:21.420 or police

00:25:22.740 training

00:25:23.280 and experience.

00:25:25.540 It couldn't be

00:25:26.720 somebody who

00:25:27.360 just learned

00:25:28.480 how to shoot

00:25:29.000 a gun

00:25:29.400 at paper targets.

00:25:30.640 Because when

00:25:31.600 you're shooting

00:25:32.260 at human beings,

00:25:33.320 when you actually

00:25:34.400 take a life,

00:25:35.860 that actually

00:25:36.980 takes a certain

00:25:38.320 kind of individual

00:25:39.460 and somebody

00:25:40.640 who's doing that

00:25:41.620 and is not

00:25:42.920 rattled by it,

00:25:44.200 that's somebody

00:25:45.140 who's done it before.

00:25:45.920 And like you said

00:25:46.520 about your nurse

00:25:47.220 in the example

00:25:47.920 in law school,

00:25:49.320 she had gone

00:25:50.640 through trauma,

00:25:51.540 which is why

00:25:52.180 she could remain

00:25:52.960 calm.

00:25:53.620 And I mentioned

00:25:54.200 about special

00:25:55.020 forces training.

00:25:55.980 They put you

00:25:56.980 through every

00:25:58.080 possible horrible

00:25:59.460 scenario and

00:26:00.640 anything that

00:26:01.580 could go wrong

00:26:02.280 and things

00:26:02.920 blowing up

00:26:03.480 all around you

00:26:04.200 so that when

00:26:04.720 you're in special

00:26:05.360 forces and

00:26:06.040 you're in a

00:26:07.120 firefight,

00:26:08.100 you actually

00:26:09.080 calm down.

00:26:10.400 You actually

00:26:10.880 can see

00:26:11.820 things that

00:26:13.000 other people

00:26:13.680 can't even

00:26:14.840 see because

00:26:15.540 they're focused

00:26:16.100 on all the

00:26:16.660 bangs and the

00:26:17.400 bullets and the

00:26:18.040 explosions,

00:26:19.420 while you are

00:26:21.020 focused on what

00:26:21.800 you need to do

00:26:22.520 to survive this

00:26:23.340 and stop the

00:26:23.980 threat.

00:26:24.880 So,

00:26:25.940 we have,

00:26:27.080 just in that

00:26:27.640 first day,

00:26:28.280 a tremendous

00:26:28.840 amount of

00:26:29.360 information.

00:26:30.140 One,

00:26:30.840 a sniper.

00:26:31.540 He chose

00:26:32.000 his weapon.

00:26:33.220 He chose

00:26:33.680 this weapon

00:26:34.340 because he

00:26:35.080 wanted to

00:26:35.540 feel like

00:26:36.100 God.

00:26:36.520 He wanted

00:26:36.860 to feel

00:26:37.280 omnipotent.

00:26:38.140 He wanted

00:26:38.600 to feel

00:26:38.920 like he

00:26:39.340 could take

00:26:39.900 a life

00:26:40.340 from afar

00:26:41.300 and above

00:26:41.780 and nobody

00:26:42.680 can stop

00:26:43.260 him and he

00:26:44.220 chooses when

00:26:45.500 their lives

00:26:45.980 ended.

00:26:46.860 And that

00:26:47.360 came out

00:26:48.880 because these

00:26:49.860 random

00:26:50.680 victims who

00:26:51.880 couldn't have

00:26:52.700 been planned,

00:26:53.500 in other words,

00:26:54.320 some of them

00:26:54.900 had just,

00:26:56.180 as a fluke,

00:26:57.000 sat down on

00:26:57.540 a bench or

00:26:58.200 just decided to

00:26:59.320 go to the

00:26:59.700 post office,

00:27:00.600 that kind

00:27:01.160 of thing,

00:27:01.900 you can't

00:27:02.540 actually know

00:27:03.460 that this

00:27:04.060 person is

00:27:04.600 going to be

00:27:05.080 at that

00:27:05.420 place at

00:27:06.140 that time.

00:27:07.200 And so,

00:27:07.880 when we put

00:27:09.080 all that

00:27:09.440 together,

00:27:10.020 the random

00:27:10.960 victimology,

00:27:12.120 the sniper,

00:27:13.360 the fact that

00:27:14.020 he had not

00:27:15.360 decompensated at

00:27:16.420 all,

00:27:17.020 we really

00:27:17.660 thought we

00:27:18.120 were looking

00:27:18.460 for somebody

00:27:19.040 who had

00:27:19.760 to be at

00:27:20.920 least in

00:27:21.560 his late

00:27:21.880 30s,

00:27:22.480 maybe early

00:27:23.040 40s,

00:27:24.020 and experienced

00:27:25.500 the line of

00:27:27.240 fire before.

00:27:27.920 Why the

00:27:34.880 late 30s

00:27:35.540 and 40s?

00:27:36.000 I understand

00:27:36.400 the possible

00:27:37.520 ex-military,

00:27:38.600 but why

00:27:38.900 late 30s

00:27:39.400 and 40s?

00:27:40.060 Well,

00:27:40.260 because the

00:27:41.380 calm,

00:27:42.800 cool,

00:27:43.120 collected

00:27:43.520 manner in

00:27:44.140 which he

00:27:44.500 planned and

00:27:45.380 executed

00:27:45.940 perfectly

00:27:46.740 these crimes.

00:27:47.840 We thought

00:27:48.220 if they were

00:27:48.800 in their

00:27:49.360 20s or

00:27:50.420 even 30s,

00:27:51.580 that the

00:27:53.160 person wouldn't

00:27:54.280 have had the

00:27:55.120 level of

00:27:55.480 experience

00:27:56.000 necessary to

00:27:57.160 actually kill

00:27:58.780 that many

00:27:59.380 people and

00:28:00.740 never make

00:28:01.360 a mistake

00:28:01.880 and never

00:28:02.880 be seen.

00:28:03.900 It's weird,

00:28:04.700 but it's like

00:28:05.040 they wouldn't

00:28:05.360 have had the

00:28:05.780 maturity,

00:28:06.620 is basically

00:28:07.020 what you're

00:28:07.360 saying.

00:28:08.000 Exactly,

00:28:08.620 because what

00:28:09.320 happens is

00:28:09.900 when profiling

00:28:10.840 is nothing

00:28:11.260 more than

00:28:11.760 reverse

00:28:12.220 engineering a

00:28:12.960 crime,

00:28:13.780 and so we

00:28:14.220 look at the

00:28:14.600 behavior exhibited

00:28:15.580 at a crime

00:28:16.120 scene and

00:28:16.740 work backwards

00:28:17.340 to the type

00:28:18.040 of person who

00:28:18.880 committed that

00:28:19.340 crime.

00:28:19.780 Of course,

00:28:20.140 victimology is

00:28:20.920 the first thing

00:28:21.420 we look at.

00:28:22.280 Who are they

00:28:23.120 picking as

00:28:23.680 their victims?

00:28:24.280 If they're

00:28:25.120 picking people

00:28:25.940 who are out

00:28:27.520 on the street

00:28:28.120 late at night,

00:28:29.580 street workers,

00:28:31.960 sex workers,

00:28:33.720 drug addicts,

00:28:34.700 runaways,

00:28:35.380 those are easy

00:28:36.360 pickings.

00:28:37.080 Nobody is

00:28:37.640 looking for

00:28:38.160 them,

00:28:38.780 nobody is

00:28:39.220 protecting them,

00:28:40.220 they're out on

00:28:40.760 their own and

00:28:41.160 they're putting

00:28:41.520 themselves in a

00:28:42.600 very risky

00:28:43.260 situation.

00:28:44.320 I'm not judging

00:28:45.360 them, just

00:28:45.880 telling you how

00:28:46.640 risky it is,

00:28:47.920 but if he's

00:28:49.180 shooting people

00:28:49.940 in the privacy

00:28:50.740 and security of

00:28:51.700 their own homes,

00:28:53.260 what does that

00:28:53.640 tell you?

00:28:54.040 He has to

00:28:54.480 have a higher

00:28:55.040 sophistication

00:28:55.860 level.

00:28:56.420 He has to

00:28:56.980 get to people

00:28:57.600 where they

00:28:58.100 are most

00:28:58.580 safe.

00:28:59.760 And he's

00:29:00.200 doing almost

00:29:01.440 that.

00:29:02.080 He's shooting

00:29:02.740 people in

00:29:03.300 broad daylight

00:29:04.080 in the normal

00:29:06.360 course of their

00:29:07.080 life with

00:29:07.920 literally hundreds

00:29:09.340 if not thousands

00:29:10.280 of potential

00:29:11.320 eyewitnesses.

00:29:12.460 How is he

00:29:13.160 doing that?

00:29:13.840 How is he

00:29:14.400 doing that and

00:29:15.180 nobody's seen

00:29:15.960 him?

00:29:16.860 And you

00:29:17.220 mentioned the

00:29:17.860 white van.

00:29:19.160 Yeah, yeah.

00:29:19.560 Hold on on that

00:29:20.540 one for one

00:29:21.040 second.

00:29:21.420 I know that we

00:29:22.380 have more on

00:29:23.060 the God

00:29:23.320 complex.

00:29:24.040 later.

00:29:24.760 But what

00:29:26.320 was it at

00:29:26.840 that point

00:29:27.380 that suggested

00:29:28.000 to you that

00:29:28.540 this person

00:29:29.060 may have

00:29:29.640 one?

00:29:30.540 The reason

00:29:30.800 why we

00:29:31.560 theorize that

00:29:32.280 he had a

00:29:32.580 God complex

00:29:33.160 is because

00:29:33.920 of his

00:29:34.340 choice of

00:29:35.560 weapon and

00:29:36.100 crime.

00:29:36.600 His MO

00:29:37.260 screams out

00:29:38.680 God complex.

00:29:39.420 We have

00:29:41.460 we have

00:29:41.480 we have

00:29:41.500 studied all

00:29:42.840 the other

00:29:43.180 sniper cases

00:29:43.980 in the

00:29:44.560 history of

00:29:45.000 the US

00:29:45.540 and we

00:29:46.420 have seen

00:29:46.960 their

00:29:47.280 psychology

00:29:47.900 and the

00:29:49.380 way I

00:29:49.820 always like

00:29:50.260 to explain

00:29:50.800 it.

00:29:50.980 I break

00:29:51.400 it down

00:29:51.660 this way

00:29:52.120 that

00:29:52.980 genetics

00:29:54.880 loads the

00:29:55.820 gun

00:29:56.060 personality

00:29:57.160 and psychology

00:29:58.000 aim it

00:29:58.600 and your

00:30:00.100 experiences pull

00:30:00.940 the trigger

00:30:01.360 and that

00:30:02.540 means it's a

00:30:03.340 complicated mix

00:30:04.360 of bio

00:30:05.140 psycho and

00:30:05.800 social that

00:30:06.620 actually makes

00:30:07.460 someone into

00:30:09.340 a killer.

00:30:10.320 In other words,

00:30:11.100 they have to have

00:30:11.900 the genetic

00:30:12.680 predisposition

00:30:14.740 or at least

00:30:15.860 potentiality to

00:30:17.380 be a killer.

00:30:17.840 they have

00:30:19.200 their own

00:30:20.040 personality

00:30:20.620 and psychology

00:30:21.460 which is the

00:30:22.540 filter through

00:30:23.240 which they

00:30:23.940 then experience

00:30:25.260 life's

00:30:26.140 experiences.

00:30:27.660 So that

00:30:28.340 becomes the

00:30:29.100 critical part

00:30:29.920 because you

00:30:32.580 develop your

00:30:33.620 own personality

00:30:34.580 and psychology

00:30:35.200 you start

00:30:35.840 with a certain

00:30:36.340 basis but

00:30:37.540 you make

00:30:38.320 literally in

00:30:39.920 your life

00:30:40.680 tens of

00:30:42.720 thousands or

00:30:43.320 hundreds of

00:30:44.040 thousands of

00:30:45.160 private little

00:30:46.040 decisions in

00:30:47.340 the privacy

00:30:47.820 of your own

00:30:48.380 mind.

00:30:49.620 And those

00:30:50.060 decisions about

00:30:51.900 when you come

00:30:53.000 into conflict

00:30:53.660 with someone

00:30:54.280 are you going

00:30:55.520 to sort of

00:30:56.960 try to push

00:30:58.080 away from the

00:30:59.000 negative or

00:31:00.040 are you going

00:31:00.440 to embrace

00:31:02.280 the dark

00:31:03.100 side?

00:31:03.620 Are you going

00:31:04.220 to actually

00:31:05.360 just give

00:31:06.760 into it and

00:31:07.560 in fact do

00:31:08.140 everything you

00:31:08.740 can to do

00:31:10.540 bad things for

00:31:11.880 the rest of

00:31:12.280 your life?

00:31:13.000 And what

00:31:13.240 happens is these

00:31:14.040 little choices

00:31:14.680 that we make

00:31:15.400 when we're very

00:31:15.940 young then

00:31:17.160 become bigger

00:31:18.040 choices and

00:31:18.860 there are

00:31:19.200 times in your

00:31:19.920 life where you

00:31:20.460 can get off

00:31:20.960 that road and

00:31:21.700 correct but if

00:31:23.200 you don't it

00:31:24.420 has this snowball

00:31:25.340 effect that by

00:31:26.700 the time you're

00:31:27.860 in your 20s and

00:31:29.060 if you're impulsive

00:31:29.980 you may act out

00:31:31.080 very badly.

00:31:32.500 If you're in

00:31:32.940 your 30s you

00:31:34.600 will think about

00:31:35.280 it more.

00:31:35.760 If you're in

00:31:36.040 your 40s you

00:31:36.900 will plan it

00:31:37.780 very carefully

00:31:38.840 and execute it

00:31:40.240 very well.

00:31:41.840 A lot of people

00:31:42.520 can plan things

00:31:43.640 but they typically

00:31:44.700 fall apart unless

00:31:46.100 you've had a

00:31:46.960 tremendous amount

00:31:47.640 of experience

00:31:48.420 doing that

00:31:49.320 thing.

00:31:50.060 So that's why

00:31:50.660 we felt in

00:31:52.180 this case that

00:31:52.800 he was older

00:31:53.380 and the fact

00:31:54.320 that he chose

00:31:55.300 out of all the

00:31:56.380 weapons he could

00:31:57.100 have chosen

00:31:57.560 somebody as

00:31:58.460 sophisticated as

00:31:59.540 this.

00:32:00.400 He chooses a

00:32:01.420 sniper rifle at

00:32:02.920 a distance

00:32:03.640 because he wants

00:32:05.560 to feel

00:32:06.280 powerful.

00:32:08.340 This empowers

00:32:09.800 him by taking

00:32:11.080 the lives of

00:32:11.720 others.

00:32:12.440 And this is

00:32:12.880 something that

00:32:13.340 we've learned

00:32:13.780 from interviewing

00:32:15.200 long detailed

00:32:17.300 interviews with

00:32:18.340 other snipers

00:32:19.460 people who have

00:32:20.600 been successful

00:32:21.320 and people who

00:32:22.480 have been stopped

00:32:23.120 before they killed

00:32:23.880 anyone.

00:32:24.860 What is it about

00:32:25.480 that kind of a

00:32:27.300 weapon and

00:32:27.940 killing somebody

00:32:28.700 from a distance

00:32:29.320 with a sniper

00:32:29.860 rifle that is

00:32:31.120 meaningful to

00:32:31.820 them?

00:32:32.360 The challenge

00:32:33.260 of it?

00:32:34.920 Well there is

00:32:35.740 a certain

00:32:36.120 challenge of

00:32:36.820 it but they

00:32:38.400 see it as a

00:32:39.760 way to be

00:32:41.160 godlike.

00:32:41.880 Everybody thinks

00:32:43.200 of God up

00:32:43.940 in heaven and

00:32:45.380 God decides

00:32:47.960 when somebody

00:32:48.560 lives or dies.

00:32:49.700 So that's what

00:32:51.500 they're doing.

00:32:52.060 They're sort of

00:32:52.460 assuming the

00:32:53.760 role of God.

00:32:54.980 They're super

00:32:55.660 imposing that on

00:32:56.720 people.

00:32:57.540 They want to

00:32:58.520 cause the fear

00:33:00.440 and terror that

00:33:01.460 they successfully

00:33:02.260 did in the

00:33:03.540 entire Washington

00:33:04.600 D.C.,

00:33:05.240 Maryland,

00:33:05.760 Virginia,

00:33:06.280 Beltway area.

00:33:07.640 That was his

00:33:08.580 goal.

00:33:09.600 It was very

00:33:10.100 clear.

00:33:11.720 He didn't

00:33:13.660 come out

00:33:14.180 with a

00:33:14.960 statement

00:33:15.820 saying,

00:33:16.960 I want

00:33:17.980 this much

00:33:19.340 money.

00:33:19.840 I will

00:33:20.340 stop if

00:33:20.900 you do

00:33:21.180 that.

00:33:22.100 He was

00:33:22.720 trying to

00:33:23.360 engender

00:33:23.720 terror by

00:33:26.380 not letting

00:33:27.720 anybody feel

00:33:29.000 like they

00:33:29.540 were safe.

00:33:30.800 And so

00:33:31.200 all the

00:33:32.360 parents were

00:33:32.920 worried about

00:33:33.500 sending their

00:33:34.040 kids to

00:33:34.420 school,

00:33:35.000 all the

00:33:35.420 people that

00:33:36.080 had to go

00:33:36.460 to work,

00:33:36.960 all the

00:33:37.180 people that

00:33:37.620 had to

00:33:38.120 work in

00:33:39.400 outdoor

00:33:39.880 jobs,

00:33:41.180 all the

00:33:41.580 people that

00:33:42.020 had to

00:33:42.360 get gas in

00:33:43.040 their cars,

00:33:43.620 everybody was

00:33:44.520 terrified at

00:33:45.220 that time.

00:33:46.440 When you

00:33:46.700 were talking

00:33:47.260 about how

00:33:48.780 calm, how

00:33:50.160 collected one

00:33:51.140 would have to

00:33:51.620 be to

00:33:52.620 execute this

00:33:54.580 murder spree

00:33:55.800 the way he

00:33:56.360 did, how

00:33:57.820 would somebody

00:33:58.720 being a

00:33:59.580 sociopath factor

00:34:01.200 in?

00:34:01.920 Could a

00:34:02.700 sociopath who

00:34:04.100 is 22

00:34:05.120 have that

00:34:06.200 same calmness

00:34:07.060 that just

00:34:08.760 a crazed

00:34:10.040 killer might

00:34:10.780 have at

00:34:11.360 age 42?

00:34:13.080 Right.

00:34:13.540 Well, first

00:34:14.660 of all,

00:34:15.360 sociopathies,

00:34:17.100 a sociopath is

00:34:18.340 a diagnosis.

00:34:19.500 It's a

00:34:19.760 psychological

00:34:20.380 diagnosis.

00:34:21.080 It's in the

00:34:21.740 DSM and

00:34:22.940 you have to

00:34:23.500 actually do

00:34:24.040 tests to

00:34:25.000 diagnose a

00:34:25.960 person like

00:34:26.460 that.

00:34:27.340 Instead, in

00:34:28.220 law enforcement,

00:34:29.740 we do

00:34:30.220 indirect

00:34:30.800 personality

00:34:31.440 assessments and

00:34:32.420 we talk about

00:34:33.280 psychopathy

00:34:34.000 instead.

00:34:34.420 psychopathy,

00:34:36.660 the disorder

00:34:40.620 that means

00:34:42.420 somebody is

00:34:43.100 a psychopath

00:34:44.040 is based on

00:34:45.920 what Dr.

00:34:46.720 Robert Hare

00:34:47.360 put together.

00:34:48.100 He put

00:34:48.420 together the

00:34:48.940 PCLR, the

00:34:50.140 psychopathy

00:34:50.860 checklist

00:34:53.520 revised, which

00:34:54.920 has 20

00:34:56.160 different aspects

00:34:57.400 that make it

00:34:58.400 up.

00:34:59.080 What you do

00:35:00.120 is you rate

00:35:00.820 someone a

00:35:02.360 zero if they

00:35:03.040 don't have

00:35:03.580 this trait,

00:35:04.420 a one if

00:35:05.040 they kind

00:35:05.540 of had

00:35:05.800 this trait

00:35:06.340 and a

00:35:06.940 two if

00:35:07.320 they definitely

00:35:08.000 have this

00:35:08.540 trait.

00:35:09.620 It's things

00:35:10.360 like narcissism

00:35:12.440 and getting

00:35:13.220 in trouble

00:35:13.640 when they're

00:35:14.020 kids and

00:35:14.720 things like

00:35:15.300 that,

00:35:16.400 multiple

00:35:17.040 marriages,

00:35:18.180 a lot of

00:35:18.760 problems in

00:35:19.720 their life.

00:35:20.640 But if you

00:35:21.920 score more

00:35:23.900 than 30,

00:35:25.360 you're

00:35:27.200 classified as

00:35:28.180 a psychopath.

00:35:28.920 If you score

00:35:29.400 more than 20,

00:35:30.280 a lot of

00:35:30.620 people think

00:35:31.100 you're probably

00:35:31.920 there or

00:35:32.580 almost there.

00:35:33.820 But one

00:35:34.160 of the

00:35:34.420 things that

00:35:36.040 one of the

00:35:36.740 most prevalent

00:35:37.720 traits in

00:35:38.660 psychopaths is

00:35:40.100 a lack of

00:35:40.700 human empathy.

00:35:41.780 Now, what

00:35:42.020 does that

00:35:42.320 mean?

00:35:42.600 What is

00:35:42.860 empathy?

00:35:43.320 It's our

00:35:43.600 ability to

00:35:44.300 put ourselves

00:35:44.900 in other

00:35:45.520 people's

00:35:45.980 shoes and

00:35:46.800 feel bad

00:35:47.280 about them

00:35:48.240 when they

00:35:48.640 go through

00:35:49.020 bad things.

00:35:50.500 And it's

00:35:50.760 one of the

00:35:51.200 things that

00:35:51.700 helps prevent

00:35:52.700 us from

00:35:53.520 hurting people

00:35:54.420 and being

00:35:55.260 violent.

00:35:55.680 this is a

00:35:58.500 sort of a

00:35:59.600 survival

00:36:00.100 mechanism that

00:36:00.940 our brain

00:36:01.400 puts in

00:36:01.980 in front

00:36:03.260 of.

00:36:03.560 It's sort

00:36:03.900 of our

00:36:04.140 frontal lobe.

00:36:05.020 It's our

00:36:05.240 policeman.

00:36:06.040 It basically

00:36:06.560 says stop

00:36:07.420 before you

00:36:07.940 go too

00:36:08.320 far.

00:36:09.620 And many

00:36:11.100 psychopaths

00:36:12.200 have none

00:36:13.080 of that at

00:36:13.520 all.

00:36:13.960 They are

00:36:14.340 completely

00:36:14.960 devoid of

00:36:16.880 empathy and

00:36:17.980 many of

00:36:18.480 them are

00:36:19.260 completely

00:36:19.820 devoid of

00:36:20.640 human emotion.

00:36:21.720 Now, the

00:36:21.980 smart ones

00:36:22.780 can see it

00:36:24.100 in other

00:36:24.400 people and

00:36:25.600 they can

00:36:25.900 mimic it.

00:36:26.900 Learn to

00:36:27.140 fake it.

00:36:28.000 Right.

00:36:28.620 Fake it

00:36:29.020 very well.

00:36:30.080 And that's

00:36:30.520 what they

00:36:30.780 use to

00:36:31.160 manipulate

00:36:31.560 people.

00:36:32.060 Ted Bundy.

00:36:33.200 Ted Bundy

00:36:34.020 is a great

00:36:34.440 example.

00:36:35.540 Also, I

00:36:37.260 don't I

00:36:37.720 don't really

00:36:38.240 love giving

00:36:39.720 names of

00:36:41.040 people that

00:36:41.800 are bad.

00:36:42.600 I work for

00:36:43.760 the victims,

00:36:44.280 not for the

00:36:44.960 bad guys,

00:36:45.740 but.

00:36:49.200 Bandersloot,

00:36:50.420 the guy who

00:36:51.340 killed Natalie

00:36:52.380 Holloway and

00:36:53.400 also the

00:36:54.380 daughter of

00:36:55.380 a South

00:36:56.340 American race

00:36:57.300 car driver

00:36:57.920 and on

00:37:00.920 the five

00:37:01.380 year anniversary

00:37:02.020 of killing

00:37:03.240 Natalie Holloway.

00:37:04.160 That's right.

00:37:04.940 I forgot he

00:37:05.680 killed a second

00:37:06.480 person.

00:37:07.280 Totally forgot

00:37:07.780 that.

00:37:08.180 She had

00:37:08.540 found out

00:37:09.380 because she

00:37:10.060 read something

00:37:10.860 on the

00:37:11.520 internet about

00:37:12.460 him on the

00:37:13.200 anniversary and

00:37:14.920 he ends up

00:37:15.660 killing her.

00:37:16.280 But what he

00:37:16.640 does is he

00:37:17.200 walks out of

00:37:17.820 the hotel

00:37:18.280 room with

00:37:19.180 two empty

00:37:20.760 coffee cups,

00:37:22.080 goes and gets

00:37:22.680 coffee and comes

00:37:23.540 back to

00:37:24.180 discover her

00:37:26.620 dead.

00:37:28.940 Immediately after

00:37:29.980 killing her,

00:37:30.920 he recovers,

00:37:32.280 comes up with

00:37:32.760 a plan.

00:37:33.660 If I go out

00:37:34.400 and carry two

00:37:36.660 cups, I can

00:37:37.680 say I thought

00:37:38.660 she was still

00:37:39.080 alive.

00:37:39.340 She was alive

00:37:39.860 when I left.

00:37:40.720 And when I

00:37:41.020 came back, I

00:37:42.700 found her dead.

00:37:43.620 He's immediately

00:37:44.520 trying to build

00:37:46.560 an alibi.

00:37:47.740 Well, guess what?

00:37:48.980 He didn't

00:37:49.620 realize that

00:37:50.180 there was a

00:37:50.580 camera literally

00:37:51.460 right outside

00:37:52.080 his hotel

00:37:52.740 room door and

00:37:54.120 nobody went

00:37:54.800 in or out

00:37:55.280 after he

00:37:56.480 left.

00:37:57.280 And so they

00:37:57.740 were very

00:37:58.140 easily able

00:37:59.260 to break

00:37:59.920 through that

00:38:00.380 alibi.

00:38:01.300 But the

00:38:01.640 important thing

00:38:02.220 is that

00:38:02.720 psychopaths have

00:38:03.820 the ability to

00:38:04.560 recover quickly.

00:38:06.200 They actually

00:38:08.040 live for

00:38:09.300 thrills.

00:38:10.100 So they're

00:38:10.520 exciting people

00:38:11.180 to be around,

00:38:12.020 for example.

00:38:12.480 But in

00:38:14.000 this case, we

00:38:15.480 saw the fact

00:38:16.660 that he was

00:38:17.360 able to do

00:38:17.980 this in a

00:38:19.100 cold, calculated

00:38:20.160 manner as not

00:38:21.480 only confirming

00:38:22.120 that he was

00:38:22.820 probably going to

00:38:23.640 be high on the

00:38:24.480 psychopathy

00:38:25.020 checklist, but

00:38:26.360 also confirming

00:38:27.220 that he had

00:38:28.660 experience doing

00:38:30.080 exactly this

00:38:31.100 somewhere in his

00:38:31.920 life.

00:38:32.820 We need that

00:38:33.620 checklist posted

00:38:34.680 in the show

00:38:35.380 notes so that

00:38:36.520 young women

00:38:37.100 dating can just

00:38:37.920 quietly drop

00:38:38.940 these questions.

00:38:40.060 Can't do it all

00:38:40.720 at once, ladies.

00:38:41.420 It's too on the

00:38:41.940 nose.

00:38:42.500 But, you know,

00:38:42.900 just like over

00:38:43.300 the first date,

00:38:44.000 you could maybe

00:38:44.360 squeeze in two,

00:38:45.620 you know,

00:38:46.120 second date,

00:38:47.080 have like a

00:38:47.480 friend show up

00:38:48.140 and ask a few.

00:38:49.040 There must be a

00:38:49.640 way of peppering

00:38:50.460 these if your

00:38:51.880 instincts haven't

00:38:52.600 served you well.

00:38:53.660 I would be a

00:38:55.200 little cautious

00:38:55.940 about it just

00:38:57.220 because, you

00:38:58.960 know, people who

00:38:59.700 haven't done this

00:39:00.520 thousands of

00:39:01.320 times can sort

00:39:02.680 of misinterpret

00:39:03.500 behavior.

00:39:04.020 There's a lot of

00:39:04.780 things that people,

00:39:05.700 a lot of little

00:39:06.240 traits or

00:39:07.640 characteristics of

00:39:10.340 psychological

00:39:11.220 disorders,

00:39:13.280 minor characteristics

00:39:14.640 of them that

00:39:15.480 we all have.

00:39:16.400 But people can

00:39:17.120 see those minor

00:39:17.860 characteristics and

00:39:19.140 think it means

00:39:20.040 everything in the

00:39:21.580 diagnostic category

00:39:22.780 and they could be

00:39:24.760 wrong that way.

00:39:25.380 although we just

00:39:27.240 we actually did

00:39:28.460 a show for

00:39:29.440 Audible and

00:39:30.500 it's called

00:39:31.200 Am I Dating a

00:39:31.760 Serial Killer?

00:39:33.000 I wanted to ask

00:39:33.800 you about that.

00:39:35.140 And believe me,

00:39:36.580 when, you know,

00:39:38.940 some of it's kind

00:39:39.540 of lighthearted and

00:39:40.540 it's hosted by a

00:39:41.760 comedian.

00:39:42.400 So we try to be

00:39:43.580 get to the lighter

00:39:44.500 side of it.

00:39:45.100 But there was one

00:39:45.840 case in particular

00:39:46.920 where they called me

00:39:47.760 in to interview this

00:39:48.760 woman because I

00:39:50.560 believe she was

00:39:51.560 dating a psychopath.

00:39:52.760 I believe that he

00:39:54.680 was a very

00:39:55.780 dangerous person

00:39:57.000 and in fact he

00:39:58.480 did end up

00:39:59.840 killing someone.

00:40:00.840 So you should be

00:40:02.920 incredibly careful

00:40:04.280 when you meet

00:40:05.880 somebody new

00:40:06.520 because especially

00:40:08.180 somebody who is

00:40:09.520 charming,

00:40:11.240 charismatic and

00:40:12.340 energetic and

00:40:13.620 has all these

00:40:14.500 amazing stories,

00:40:15.700 you should kind of

00:40:17.260 dig down and

00:40:18.520 meet their friends

00:40:19.680 and their families.

00:40:20.560 And if they say,

00:40:21.800 well, I don't

00:40:22.320 really talk to my

00:40:23.040 families, big red

00:40:24.100 flag.

00:40:24.980 If they say, well,

00:40:26.060 I don't have a lot

00:40:26.660 of friends, big red

00:40:29.120 flag.

00:40:30.300 There are, you know,

00:40:31.380 if you look at,

00:40:32.680 let's say the

00:40:34.260 Tinder swindler,

00:40:36.400 that guy, I mean,

00:40:37.740 when he did his

00:40:39.080 thing, he made

00:40:40.140 women feel

00:40:41.360 incredibly special.

00:40:42.620 He flew them on a

00:40:43.940 private jet.

00:40:44.480 He did all these

00:40:45.140 amazing things, all

00:40:46.000 these gifts.

00:40:46.860 He said his life

00:40:47.940 was totally consumed

00:40:49.100 by them.

00:40:50.320 Well, it's all a

00:40:52.380 very well planned

00:40:53.600 out manipulation

00:40:54.320 and you have to

00:40:56.480 be able to, as

00:40:58.120 much as you're

00:40:58.780 feeling great about

00:40:59.740 it and it's amazing

00:41:00.620 and it's exactly

00:41:01.280 what you wanted,

00:41:02.360 if it's real, it

00:41:04.180 will survive you

00:41:04.960 stepping back and

00:41:06.200 taking some time

00:41:07.000 and saying, okay,

00:41:08.540 this is what we're

00:41:09.460 going to do.

00:41:09.900 We're going to slow

00:41:10.520 this down.

00:41:11.260 We're going to look

00:41:11.800 into some things.

00:41:12.660 We're going to take

00:41:13.660 some time to actually

00:41:14.480 get to know each

00:41:15.120 other before we make

00:41:16.080 all these amazing

00:41:16.820 moves.

00:41:17.200 And that will put

00:41:19.060 a wrench in his

00:41:20.000 plans because he

00:41:21.340 needs you to go

00:41:22.260 fast so that he

00:41:23.120 can move on to the

00:41:23.800 next one and the

00:41:24.420 next one and the

00:41:25.020 next one.

00:41:26.380 Maybe, maybe it's

00:41:28.200 not so bad to be

00:41:29.380 dating somebody who's

00:41:30.140 a little dull.

00:41:31.140 Maybe you could,

00:41:32.420 maybe dull in the

00:41:33.480 beginning is good

00:41:34.460 because it sounds

00:41:35.180 like they don't

00:41:36.160 tend to project

00:41:36.800 dull if they're

00:41:37.900 trying to swindle

00:41:38.800 you or woo you

00:41:39.900 or just get you

00:41:41.380 under their power.

00:41:43.180 So yeah, okay,

00:41:43.760 that's a good thing

00:41:44.240 to look for.

00:41:45.320 I mean, ideally

00:41:45.780 hot but dull.

00:41:46.660 So consider that

00:41:47.680 ladies and we'll

00:41:48.600 continue more of

00:41:49.520 this in a little bit

00:41:50.220 with Jim because

00:41:50.760 we definitely want

00:41:51.820 to know more about

00:41:52.500 am I dating a serial

00:41:53.700 killer?

00:41:54.080 Who doesn't, who

00:41:54.740 wouldn't listen to

00:41:55.380 that?

00:41:56.560 Okay, so and by

00:41:57.980 the way, just because

00:41:58.640 you're not a serial

00:41:59.980 killer doesn't mean

00:42:00.560 you're safe.

00:42:01.100 I mean, psychopath,

00:42:01.980 sociopath, these

00:42:02.620 are all deeply

00:42:03.320 problematic.

00:42:04.200 Killing animals,

00:42:05.380 always deeply

00:42:05.900 problematic and

00:42:06.600 people, women

00:42:08.480 overlook it.

00:42:09.320 It's like, oh,

00:42:10.060 what do you mean

00:42:10.540 he killed the

00:42:11.040 family cat?

00:42:12.260 Oh, but he's so

00:42:12.940 handsome and he

00:42:13.740 treats me so well.

00:42:14.660 Ladies, pay

00:42:15.860 attention.

00:42:16.320 All right, wait,

00:42:16.640 stand by because

00:42:17.140 I want to get to,

00:42:18.320 I want to get back

00:42:18.920 to Sniper and get

00:42:19.640 us through that.

00:42:20.700 So now we move

00:42:21.420 on to the next

00:42:22.120 day and it takes

00:42:24.220 us to October

00:42:24.720 4th.

00:42:25.580 Another person is

00:42:27.440 shot, though she

00:42:28.360 survives.

00:42:29.380 A 43-year-old woman,

00:42:30.820 Caroline Sewell, back

00:42:32.600 to Michael's, a

00:42:33.300 parking lot.

00:42:34.480 She's putting her

00:42:35.080 bags inside of her

00:42:35.860 Toyota minivan.

00:42:36.800 You can picture it,

00:42:37.440 can't you?

00:42:37.980 You know, you can

00:42:38.740 picture yourself doing

00:42:39.600 this.

00:42:40.280 Amazingly, she

00:42:40.940 survives.

00:42:41.520 But the D.C.,

00:42:43.440 Virginia, Maryland

00:42:44.700 sort of area is

00:42:46.940 absolutely in a

00:42:48.460 panic now.

00:42:49.000 I mean, as we

00:42:49.440 discussed.

00:42:49.980 And here's just a

00:42:50.680 little bit of sound

00:42:52.560 from locals at and

00:42:54.360 around that time.

00:42:55.160 This is SOT 5.

00:42:55.780 I do walk around my

00:43:01.160 community with a

00:43:01.840 little more caution

00:43:02.720 than I did before.

00:43:03.840 They can't go outside

00:43:05.160 and the blinds in the

00:43:06.980 schools are all closed

00:43:08.080 so it's very much a

00:43:09.440 bunker kind of

00:43:10.460 mentality, you know,

00:43:11.600 feeling that they're

00:43:13.020 experiencing.

00:43:14.100 As soon as people get

00:43:15.040 home from work, they

00:43:16.580 stay in.

00:43:17.100 They're not going out.

00:43:17.840 Even the restaurants

00:43:18.520 are, there's nobody in

00:43:20.340 the restaurants.

00:43:21.420 Residents of

00:43:22.120 Washington have faced

00:43:23.080 an awful lot of stuff

00:43:24.160 in the last year.

00:43:25.060 We're from people

00:43:26.180 flying airplanes into

00:43:28.140 buildings to the

00:43:29.840 anthrax attacks.

00:43:31.900 We face, you know,

00:43:34.140 crazy shooters most

00:43:36.480 days of the year, at

00:43:37.580 least the threat of

00:43:38.320 it.

00:43:39.880 So we're just trying

00:43:40.940 to go along as

00:43:41.640 business as usual.

00:43:43.360 Yeah.

00:43:44.080 I mean, easier said

00:43:45.860 than done.

00:43:46.420 Yeah, that man was an

00:43:48.000 anomaly at the time.

00:43:49.100 And I'll tell you,

00:43:50.320 both Tim, my brother

00:43:51.420 Tim, who was also an

00:43:52.300 FBI agent, and I

00:43:53.360 arrived at that

00:43:54.600 Michael store at

00:43:55.700 exactly the same

00:43:56.680 time because it

00:43:57.840 turns out that it

00:43:59.000 is almost equidistant

00:44:00.820 between our two

00:44:02.040 houses.

00:44:02.720 We literally pulled

00:44:03.880 up.

00:44:04.160 I look over as I'm

00:44:05.820 pulling into a parking

00:44:06.820 space.

00:44:07.480 He's pulling into the

00:44:08.540 one right next to me.

00:44:09.560 And we ran up to the

00:44:10.760 sheriff and we said,

00:44:11.740 you know, how can we

00:44:12.740 help?

00:44:13.240 And unfortunately,

00:44:15.500 I wouldn't say that

00:44:17.980 the sheriff had been

00:44:19.480 equipped or his

00:44:21.460 department to handle

00:44:22.640 something like this.

00:44:23.920 The fact is that all

00:44:26.000 these shootings the

00:44:27.920 days before happened

00:44:29.360 up north of Washington,

00:44:31.140 D.C.

00:44:31.520 and just touching into

00:44:32.540 the north side of

00:44:33.420 Washington, D.C.

00:44:34.240 And now he goes 50

00:44:36.160 miles south of

00:44:37.080 Washington, D.C.

00:44:38.120 What the hell is going

00:44:39.220 on here?

00:44:39.940 But to me, the first

00:44:42.080 thing that I thought

00:44:42.860 was, hmm, kind of did

00:44:45.400 all these shootings

00:44:46.200 north of D.C., working

00:44:47.840 his way into D.C., just

00:44:49.860 touching into D.C., and

00:44:51.760 then he jumps 50

00:44:52.720 miles south.

00:44:53.700 Why is he avoiding

00:44:54.500 Washington, D.C.?

00:44:56.260 Hmm.

00:44:57.500 Possibly because he

00:44:58.960 knows he'd go head to

00:45:00.640 head with the FBI and

00:45:02.480 the other federal

00:45:03.160 agencies in Washington,

00:45:04.700 D.C.

00:45:05.160 who have a worldwide

00:45:07.380 network of agents and

00:45:09.300 communication versus the

00:45:11.400 small towns around D.C.

00:45:13.140 that have access to D.C.'s

00:45:14.940 news.

00:45:15.440 But they don't have

00:45:17.920 the FBI.

00:45:19.660 They don't have federal

00:45:20.880 law enforcement.

00:45:22.100 They don't have big

00:45:23.460 city, big police

00:45:25.440 departments.

00:45:26.500 Oh, so funny.

00:45:27.200 And so he's dancing

00:45:27.940 around the biggest media

00:45:29.920 circus in the world,

00:45:31.400 but not dealing head to

00:45:33.820 head with big law

00:45:35.460 enforcement.

00:45:36.160 So you're getting this

00:45:36.960 picture of somebody who

00:45:38.280 has some sophistication,

00:45:39.960 for sure.

00:45:40.440 Exactly.

00:45:40.620 This is not some

00:45:41.280 bumpkin.

00:45:42.700 And is thinking about

00:45:43.900 what he's doing and why

00:45:44.900 he's doing it.

00:45:45.640 So he's a planner.

00:45:46.760 He's a manipulator.

00:45:47.900 But Tim and I, we we

00:45:49.820 ended up finding out

00:45:51.840 that that the sheriff

00:45:52.940 had let go all of the

00:45:56.240 all of the witnesses

00:45:57.480 that had been there,

00:45:58.500 did not take any names

00:46:01.420 and and did not do a

00:46:04.140 canvas of the area for

00:46:06.000 any forensics.

00:46:08.680 Actually, the media line

00:46:10.880 that he set up had been

00:46:11.940 about 50 feet away from

00:46:14.080 where the van was.

00:46:16.780 And what I did was I

00:46:18.080 I looked at the angle of

00:46:19.240 entry because the bullet

00:46:20.440 went through her and

00:46:21.820 into the back of her van.

00:46:23.820 And so I looked at the

00:46:24.520 angle of entry and then

00:46:25.880 I spotted a sign a few

00:46:28.280 hundred yards away and

00:46:29.940 I started walking off a

00:46:31.400 grid to do a grid search

00:46:33.120 of the area.

00:46:33.620 This is something that I'm

00:46:34.660 very experienced in.

00:46:35.760 And and I walked 87

00:46:37.560 strides.

00:46:39.860 Till I found a shell

00:46:41.720 casing from a two to

00:46:42.760 three.

00:46:43.920 And that was the kind of

00:46:45.040 weapon that was being

00:46:45.780 used.

00:46:46.440 So although the press

00:46:48.680 were at 50 feet from

00:46:50.540 the van, this.

00:46:53.820 Piece of evidence was

00:46:55.540 87 yards away, so we

00:46:57.320 had to contaminate the

00:46:58.260 whole crime scene.

00:46:59.360 Well, they could have.

00:47:00.280 But the fact is that

00:47:02.040 this is why I think he

00:47:03.740 chose small town law

00:47:05.200 enforcement versus the

00:47:07.140 big guns.

00:47:08.140 And he was very smart to

00:47:09.740 do that.

00:47:10.140 And he would continue to

00:47:11.160 do that dancing back and

00:47:12.420 forth north and south

00:47:13.580 around Washington, D.C.

00:47:15.580 and not in Washington, D.C.

00:47:17.520 properly.

00:47:17.740 Can you explain more

00:47:18.920 about the weapon?

00:47:19.920 You know, in today's day

00:47:21.340 and age, everyone's

00:47:22.260 familiar now with AR-15,

00:47:24.180 less so this rifle.

00:47:26.240 Yeah, I mean, it is

00:47:27.720 it's a two to three.

00:47:29.880 It is a very

00:47:30.720 Bushmaster.

00:47:31.740 It's a Bushmaster two to

00:47:33.840 three.

00:47:34.160 It's just that's just a

00:47:35.280 brand.

00:47:35.860 I mean, it's the same

00:47:36.920 kind of weapon that

00:47:38.420 an M-16 would

00:47:40.760 be.

00:47:41.580 The project, the

00:47:42.980 shell casing is rather

00:47:44.560 large and the projectile

00:47:46.120 is rather small, which

00:47:47.500 means it's going to go

00:47:48.640 fast and far.

00:47:50.500 It's a it's a it's

00:47:52.420 an accurate weapon.

00:47:53.600 It's very automatic.

00:47:55.200 Yes, it's semi-automatic.

00:47:56.840 And it's and it's

00:47:57.760 basically the kind of

00:47:59.220 weapon that, you

00:48:00.940 know, troops on the

00:48:01.860 ground and military will

00:48:03.000 use because it's so

00:48:04.080 simple.

00:48:04.600 It's very hard to jam.

00:48:05.960 You could stick it in mud

00:48:07.300 and pick it back up and

00:48:08.760 and still use the weapon.

00:48:10.380 And so it's it's a very

00:48:12.360 reliable type of weapon

00:48:13.900 and and certainly

00:48:15.620 functional for this

00:48:17.920 particular type of crime.

00:48:22.100 Troops use machine guns.

00:48:23.620 This is not that.

00:48:24.960 This is.

00:48:25.320 No, this is one single.

00:48:26.540 Right.

00:48:26.900 One bullet trigger, one

00:48:27.840 bullet.

00:48:28.260 Right.

00:48:28.940 But so far, that's

00:48:31.000 all he's needed.

00:48:32.120 Yeah.

00:48:32.400 Yeah.

00:48:32.500 One shot, one kill.

00:48:34.020 And that that is

00:48:35.620 something that is really

00:48:36.820 up until this.

00:48:38.700 It's very scary because

00:48:40.260 it also tells us that this

00:48:41.580 person really knows what

00:48:43.380 he's doing, because in

00:48:45.380 order for him to be

00:48:47.060 invisible, in other

00:48:48.320 words, nobody actually

00:48:49.320 saw him pull the trigger

00:48:51.720 ever.

00:48:52.380 It means he has to have a

00:48:54.640 really good sniper's

00:48:55.560 perch.

00:48:55.880 and since it's out

00:48:58.080 in public in the

00:48:59.400 daylight, that means he

00:49:01.480 has some way of

00:49:02.560 concealing himself.

00:49:03.940 And of course, people

00:49:05.500 started hearing.

00:49:06.620 We started hearing about

00:49:07.720 a white van who

00:49:09.340 that sped away from one

00:49:11.320 of the scenes.

00:49:12.540 Well, if you heard

00:49:13.820 shots and you were in a

00:49:14.860 white van, well, it's

00:49:15.680 very reasonable that you

00:49:16.720 might want to speed

00:49:17.520 away.

00:49:18.380 It's also very important

00:49:19.540 to know that a white

00:49:21.500 commercial van is

00:49:26.440 actually the most

00:49:27.700 common type of van

00:49:29.160 used in small

00:49:31.040 businesses.

00:49:31.960 And in fact, one of

00:49:34.120 the cable companies

00:49:35.840 the year before had

00:49:37.820 sold off 1,800 of

00:49:40.320 these white vans in the

00:49:41.960 area because they were

00:49:44.600 doing and ramping up a

00:49:47.040 new fleet.

00:49:48.440 And so there were

00:49:50.720 overabundance.

00:49:52.600 And I think at one of

00:49:53.600 the shooting scenes

00:49:54.400 when one of the local

00:49:56.780 police officers told my

00:49:58.040 brother, yeah, we're

00:49:58.860 looking for the white

00:49:59.620 van.

00:50:00.040 Somebody saw the white

00:50:00.840 van.

00:50:01.700 My brother said, okay,

00:50:02.480 stop right here.

00:50:03.320 We're at an

00:50:03.720 intersection.

00:50:05.340 I want you to count the

00:50:06.300 number of white vans you

00:50:07.640 see right now.

00:50:08.560 And it was nine or 13

00:50:10.260 white vans that just in

00:50:12.080 their sight line right

00:50:13.000 then.

00:50:13.660 So somebody's always

00:50:14.460 going to be searching

00:50:15.420 for the white van if

00:50:16.260 somebody tells you to

00:50:17.380 think about the white

00:50:18.300 van, you're going to

00:50:19.340 see the white van.

00:50:21.420 I mean, I've told my

00:50:22.320 kids, like, as you get

00:50:24.580 to be driving age or

00:50:25.640 you're driving with your

00:50:26.380 friends or whatever, do

00:50:27.740 not park next to vans.

00:50:29.220 Do not park next to a

00:50:30.180 van.

00:50:30.360 There is no point.

00:50:31.580 There's no reason.

00:50:32.360 There's plenty of

00:50:32.800 parking spots.

00:50:34.220 Just bad things happen.

00:50:35.460 It's just too easy for

00:50:36.560 bad guys to reach out and

00:50:38.260 grab somebody who's

00:50:39.420 smaller, weaker, and

00:50:41.420 take them.

00:50:41.880 No question.

00:50:42.500 It's good to be

00:50:43.220 proactive.

00:50:43.760 It's good to be

00:50:44.280 situationally aware.

00:50:45.280 And in this case, what

00:50:47.760 ends up happening is

00:50:49.200 that the sheriff, when

00:50:51.840 I went back and talked

00:50:52.680 to him and I said,

00:50:53.660 what have the people

00:50:55.940 said?

00:50:56.280 Because Michael's is

00:50:57.480 literally in the parking

00:50:58.780 lot of what's called the

00:51:00.160 Spotsylvania mall.

00:51:01.480 And I looked around.

00:51:02.460 There were at least

00:51:02.940 3000 cars visible to me

00:51:05.520 at that time.

00:51:06.860 And I said, what

00:51:08.720 witnesses?

00:51:09.320 What have they said?

00:51:10.460 And he said, there were

00:51:11.300 no witnesses.

00:51:11.860 And I said, come on,

00:51:15.160 somebody, somebody must

00:51:16.540 have said something.

00:51:17.340 And he said, well, there's

00:51:18.080 this one guy, but he's

00:51:19.040 18 years old and he uses

00:51:20.780 drugs and he's lied to us

00:51:22.040 before.

00:51:23.340 And he said, what?

00:51:26.680 And I said, what?

00:51:27.660 Well, what did he say?

00:51:28.840 He said he said it was a

00:51:31.500 black guy with an Afro

00:51:33.040 peeled out in a dark

00:51:34.560 sedan.

00:51:35.500 And I said, great.

00:51:36.280 Did you put out an APB on

00:51:37.720 it?

00:51:37.860 He said, no, I put out the

00:51:39.360 APB on the white van, just

00:51:40.920 like Chief Moose told us.

00:51:43.440 Wow.

00:51:44.500 And I just, you know, took

00:51:46.160 in a deep breath, but I

00:51:47.320 also clocked it.

00:51:48.520 Now, this is an unreliable

00:51:49.660 witness who has lied to the

00:51:50.820 police before, who's a drug

00:51:52.180 user, but.

00:51:54.740 It could.

00:51:55.320 Why would you lie about

00:51:56.120 this?

00:51:56.560 Yeah, it could be.

00:51:57.940 And the other thing is

00:51:59.080 our viewers may not

00:52:01.040 maybe they do remember, but

00:52:02.660 there we didn't have cameras

00:52:03.980 everywhere back then.

00:52:05.100 This is immediately post

00:52:06.260 9-11.

00:52:06.980 It would take a while for

00:52:08.020 that apparatus to get up at

00:52:09.360 every corner of America.

00:52:10.940 It wasn't there yet.

00:52:12.800 And not only that, this was

00:52:14.160 a very rural area.

00:52:15.520 This is Fredericksburg,

00:52:16.760 Virginia.

00:52:17.240 In fact, it's Spotsylvania

00:52:18.700 County, Virginia.

00:52:19.900 And it's a tiny little area

00:52:22.040 that has that happens to

00:52:23.600 have some box stores and

00:52:25.360 some mall.

00:52:26.600 But it's generally it's

00:52:28.800 just a very suburban

00:52:30.380 55 miles away from

00:52:32.920 Washington, D.C.

00:52:33.980 kind of quiet little

00:52:36.160 bedroom town.

00:52:38.000 And nobody

00:52:39.100 The iPhone didn't come

00:52:39.860 out until 2007 as well.

00:52:41.960 So people weren't

00:52:42.820 popping open their phones

00:52:44.080 and getting the immediate

00:52:45.100 aftermath.

00:52:45.860 Sometimes it bears

00:52:46.840 reminders, you know,

00:52:48.460 about how we used to live

00:52:49.880 versus now and these things

00:52:51.200 that we've just become

00:52:51.920 accustomed to.

00:52:52.680 You're right.

00:52:53.720 Yeah, we were using

00:52:54.780 pagers in the FBI at the

00:52:56.320 time.

00:52:56.960 Mm hmm.

00:52:57.660 OK, so the next

00:53:00.020 shooting and thank goodness

00:53:03.400 this person survived was

00:53:04.940 of a child, a 13 year

00:53:06.740 old shot, critically

00:53:07.720 wounded outside of the

00:53:09.000 Benjamin Tasker Middle

00:53:09.920 School in Bowie, Maryland.

00:53:11.520 So he was shot in the

00:53:12.760 chest, but he survived.

00:53:14.280 He would later testify at

00:53:15.460 one of the trials.

00:53:17.080 And two days later, on

00:53:19.140 October 9th, 2002, keep

00:53:21.080 in mind, again, this

00:53:21.620 started as far as we know

00:53:22.780 on October 2nd.

00:53:24.000 So here we are a week

00:53:24.720 into this.

00:53:25.180 A tarot card is found

00:53:27.540 near the scene of that

00:53:29.060 shooting at the school.

00:53:31.060 And this is a, I would

00:53:32.940 say, first big clue.

00:53:34.700 No, absolutely.

00:53:35.860 Well, the first big clue

00:53:38.280 about that is that this

00:53:40.200 was a response to a lot

00:53:42.840 of the.

00:53:45.120 Unfortunate statements

00:53:46.800 that police and political

00:53:48.740 figures in the area were

00:53:50.320 making at the time, we

00:53:51.700 told them that the

00:53:53.420 sniper has a God

00:53:54.420 complex and the last

00:53:56.380 thing you want to do is

00:53:57.280 challenge that sniper.

00:53:58.760 What you want to do is

00:53:59.960 appease them and then

00:54:02.020 hopefully they will sort

00:54:04.160 of lower their

00:54:05.860 aggression and actually

00:54:07.560 start communicating.

00:54:09.140 Instead, what happened

00:54:10.520 was the chief, chief

00:54:13.900 Moose made a statement

00:54:15.120 that the streets are

00:54:16.320 safe, the schools are

00:54:17.300 safe.

00:54:17.840 So to prove them wrong

00:54:19.700 after they called the

00:54:20.960 sniper a coward, going

00:54:23.240 after unarmed people,

00:54:24.420 all this other stuff,

00:54:25.960 person after person was

00:54:27.200 paraded in front of the

00:54:28.280 cameras saying that they

00:54:30.060 wanted to to make a

00:54:31.460 statement.

00:54:31.960 And what they did was they

00:54:33.180 shot somebody on their way

00:54:35.300 into school, this 13 year

00:54:36.700 old boy.

00:54:37.720 And like you said, luckily

00:54:38.580 he survived.

00:54:40.400 And when they did the

00:54:42.320 search there, they found

00:54:43.780 the sniper perch in a patch

00:54:45.260 of woods next to the

00:54:46.440 school.

00:54:46.820 And this tarot card was

00:54:48.600 there and very, very

00:54:52.560 in alignment with our

00:54:55.800 profile at this point was

00:54:57.860 the statement on the top,

00:54:59.920 call me God.

00:55:00.820 And this confirmed, and I

00:55:03.800 think finally chief Moose

00:55:05.380 listened to us about this

00:55:08.860 sniper.

00:55:09.920 It's the death tarot card

00:55:11.800 and it says, call me God on

00:55:13.980 it.

00:55:14.200 And then on the back is,

00:55:15.740 says, this is for you, Mr.

00:55:17.120 Police, no press and call me

00:55:21.380 God again.

00:55:22.240 And this was a very

00:55:24.280 interesting thing.

00:55:25.180 And as we began to really

00:55:28.440 crunch all this data that

00:55:30.480 we were getting, the

00:55:31.540 information from all the

00:55:33.380 shootings that happened in

00:55:34.420 one day with one shot,

00:55:36.040 one kill, the fact that

00:55:37.420 he's bouncing around to

00:55:38.420 these small jurisdictions,

00:55:39.420 the fact that nobody has

00:55:40.640 actually seen him, the

00:55:41.740 fact that everybody's

00:55:42.500 chasing ghost white vans,

00:55:44.240 the fact that he

00:55:45.100 communicated with us saying,

00:55:46.600 call me God.

00:55:47.600 And the fact that he said,

00:55:49.140 this is for you, Mr.

00:55:50.880 Police.

00:55:52.000 Well, that really raised

00:55:54.540 some issues with Jim

00:55:56.920 Fitzgerald, who was my

00:55:58.640 buddy in the behavioral

00:55:59.440 analysis unit and who had

00:56:01.180 started forensic linguistic

00:56:03.260 profiling.

00:56:04.240 And that is using the

00:56:06.300 actual content of the

00:56:07.540 words, the construction of

00:56:09.360 the language to tell a lot

00:56:12.160 about the writer.

00:56:13.780 And what we found was a

00:56:16.560 great amount of detail that

00:56:19.140 we would start to think

00:56:21.120 about, but we didn't

00:56:23.040 actually have sort of a

00:56:24.600 a, you know, sit down,

00:56:27.140 drag out profile session

00:56:28.720 until a few days, several

00:56:30.680 days later.

00:56:32.680 So the tarot card was

00:56:34.960 big, but the focus on the

00:56:37.100 white van would continue.

00:56:39.200 For example, the same day

00:56:41.260 the tarot card was found,

00:56:42.400 October 9th, another

00:56:44.000 shooting.

00:56:44.740 Dean Harold Myers, 53 of

00:56:46.300 Gaithersburg, Maryland,

00:56:47.280 killed while pumping gas at a

00:56:49.140 station in Manassas,

00:56:50.040 Virginia, a white minivan

00:56:52.140 seen in the area is first

00:56:53.700 thought to have some

00:56:54.500 connection with the

00:56:55.320 shooting later cleared by

00:56:57.360 police.

00:56:58.620 October 11th, 2002,

00:57:00.900 Kenneth Bridges, 53, a

00:57:02.280 Philadelphia businessman

00:57:03.180 killed at an Exxon station

00:57:04.880 just off I-95 near

00:57:06.160 Fredericksburg, Virginia.

00:57:08.500 Police enforce a huge

00:57:09.880 road roadblock trying to

00:57:11.620 find a white van like

00:57:12.900 vehicle with a ladder rack

00:57:14.780 on top.

00:57:15.260 Sorry, go ahead, Jim.

00:57:16.500 And let me tell you

00:57:17.040 something about that.

00:57:17.700 That was Massaponics,

00:57:18.900 Virginia.

00:57:19.320 It's the exit just south

00:57:20.780 of Fredericksburg, Virginia.

00:57:21.980 So just south of where

00:57:23.320 the Michaels shooting

00:57:24.520 happened, just one exit

00:57:26.040 down the road.

00:57:27.420 My brother was one of the

00:57:30.000 first law enforcement to

00:57:31.320 show up at that scene.

00:57:33.320 And as soon as he got

00:57:34.900 there, he called his wife.

00:57:36.620 They lived, as I said,

00:57:37.880 just not a short distance

00:57:39.620 away.

00:57:41.260 And he said, stay inside,

00:57:44.320 whatever you do, don't

00:57:45.100 come out here.

00:57:45.840 And she said, I just left

00:57:48.560 that very gas station.

00:57:50.260 And she literally had the

00:57:52.420 receipt from pumping gas

00:57:55.060 literally 10 minutes before

00:57:57.160 the shot was fired there.

00:57:59.100 Now, fortunately, she was in

00:58:00.960 a big white van, but it was

00:58:02.440 one of those big 15

00:58:03.680 passenger white vans that

00:58:05.880 stands taller than she is.

00:58:07.940 So a sniper would never have

00:58:09.620 had a shot with her standing

00:58:11.420 next to that van.

00:58:12.780 It was very fortunate.

00:58:13.920 But unfortunately, the man

00:58:15.540 who did stop there, he

00:58:17.760 literally stopped there

00:58:19.160 because he didn't want to

00:58:20.900 have to.

00:58:21.760 He was driving up to

00:58:22.560 Philadelphia, I believe.

00:58:23.780 He didn't want to have to

00:58:24.640 stop anywhere near D.C.

00:58:26.900 because of the sniper.

00:58:28.300 He said, I'll fill up my

00:58:29.640 tank here and then I'll be

00:58:31.360 able to drive the rest of

00:58:32.360 the way to Philly.

00:58:33.280 He was actually on the

00:58:34.180 phone with his wife telling

00:58:35.280 her that when he was shot

00:58:36.760 and killed.

00:58:37.160 Oh, poor guy.

00:58:37.860 It's just a terribly tragic

00:58:38.860 story.

00:58:39.840 And this is another reason

00:58:40.900 why the whole thing was so

00:58:41.800 disconcerting is and I

00:58:43.220 talked about this with our

00:58:44.140 with our guest on the

00:58:45.420 Zodiac killings in which

00:58:47.620 the people there seemed to

00:58:50.040 be no motive.

00:58:51.120 You know, the Zodiac killer

00:58:52.260 didn't steal purses or

00:58:53.740 wallets or commit sexual

00:58:56.280 assaults.

00:58:56.980 It just seemed to be

00:58:58.160 killing for fun.

00:58:59.880 And so it was like those

00:59:01.360 are especially disturbing

00:59:02.660 because we like to believe

00:59:04.440 we can find patterns that

00:59:05.760 we can then avoid that will

00:59:07.520 keep us safe.

00:59:08.420 I think it's just a

00:59:09.500 psychological, psychological

00:59:10.720 crutch.

00:59:11.400 And this is similar.

00:59:14.000 It's lacking any crutch for

00:59:15.580 any sane person to try to

00:59:17.600 use because this could have

00:59:19.600 happened to anyone, a child

00:59:21.480 near a school, a person

00:59:23.180 pumping gas, a person

00:59:24.800 getting groceries, a man

00:59:26.280 walking down the street.

00:59:27.520 It's like the liquor store,

00:59:29.580 the parking lots.

00:59:30.840 There's just no stopping

00:59:32.020 anything you did forever as

00:59:33.220 a hermit was was a risk.

00:59:35.180 Anything you did.

00:59:36.400 And as I said earlier,

00:59:37.240 people were literally putting

00:59:39.200 up blankets over every

00:59:40.800 window in their house.

00:59:41.720 They were afraid not only

00:59:43.000 of going out in public,

00:59:44.340 they were afraid that since

00:59:46.280 so many people were off the

00:59:47.520 street that the sniper was

00:59:49.160 going to start shooting

00:59:49.840 people in their own homes.

00:59:51.420 This is a it's a very

00:59:53.580 effective tool when you

00:59:55.140 randomly kill people at

00:59:57.080 will with nobody being able

00:59:59.440 to identify you or stop you.

01:00:01.580 The terror level just kept

01:00:03.340 rising over these 23 days.

01:00:05.180 It just became unbelievably

01:00:08.120 scary just to live and

01:00:10.040 operate in that area.

01:00:11.420 My brother.

01:00:14.000 To his credit, he he ran

01:00:17.160 the SWAT team at the

01:00:18.720 Washington Field Office of

01:00:19.800 the FBI, he had all his

01:00:21.640 SWAT team members out

01:00:22.960 patrolling the area because

01:00:25.320 he started we helped him

01:00:27.200 kind of profile the kinds of

01:00:28.840 places that that these

01:00:30.700 shootings were taking place.

01:00:31.720 They were all near good

01:00:33.480 avenues for egress, a

01:00:35.800 highway nearby so they can

01:00:37.140 get away fast.

01:00:38.200 That was important to the

01:00:39.680 shooter.

01:00:40.100 So he was driving around

01:00:43.300 to small towns, exits

01:00:46.100 around big highways so

01:00:48.680 that he could try to

01:00:49.940 interdict.

01:00:50.760 And unfortunately, he

01:00:53.840 was he actually heard the

01:00:55.340 shot at the Home Depot.

01:00:56.940 And I think that's the

01:00:58.380 next shooting.

01:01:00.520 Your brother did, Tim.

01:01:02.080 Yes, Tim did.

01:01:02.980 And he was the first law

01:01:04.980 enforcement to arrive at that

01:01:06.120 scene.

01:01:06.900 Oh, my God.

01:01:07.820 And unfortunately, it was a

01:01:09.560 it was an FBI employee that

01:01:11.500 had been shot and killed.

01:01:12.540 Yes.

01:01:13.000 Yes.

01:01:13.380 OK.

01:01:13.760 And that was a woman.

01:01:16.380 Right.

01:01:16.680 That was Linda Franklin,

01:01:17.920 47, Arlington,

01:01:19.660 Virginia.

01:01:20.420 This is the 11th victim,

01:01:22.400 though not yet fatality,

01:01:24.360 because to the early to the

01:01:26.480 earlier folks survived.

01:01:28.900 She was shot and killed by a

01:01:30.780 single gunshot in the Home

01:01:31.920 Depot parking lot in Falls,

01:01:33.100 Church, Virginia, an FBI

01:01:34.640 intelligence analyst.

01:01:36.120 And I knew that you and your

01:01:37.340 brother were working this case,

01:01:38.460 but I did not know that he was

01:01:40.400 the first on on that scene,

01:01:42.120 which must have been horrific.

01:01:43.320 Forty seven is not old.

01:01:45.180 And to have have it turn out to

01:01:47.000 be someone who's essentially a

01:01:48.180 colleague, even worse.

01:01:49.740 And he just he just describes,

01:01:53.060 you know, seeing her her husband,

01:01:55.680 you know, holding her and her

01:01:57.740 dying in his arms.

01:01:58.680 And it just was horrific.

01:02:00.080 And this really got him even

01:02:03.500 more riled up.

01:02:04.500 And he knew that that this was a

01:02:08.340 very sophisticated killer.

01:02:10.000 And we had been talking

01:02:11.440 throughout this whole process.

01:02:13.420 And at about this time, we

01:02:15.980 decided we need to really do

01:02:18.820 a push to try to gather

01:02:21.040 all this information and get

01:02:22.340 it out to all the law

01:02:23.900 enforcement agencies in the

01:02:25.100 area.

01:02:26.200 And it would be very

01:02:28.840 shortly after that, that

01:02:30.260 the Ashland shooting

01:02:32.220 happened.

01:02:33.340 That was that was even

01:02:35.240 further south away from

01:02:36.900 D.C., about halfway between

01:02:38.760 Fredericksburg and Richmond,

01:02:40.500 Virginia.

01:02:41.800 So that was October 19th.

01:02:43.840 That was October 19th,

01:02:45.000 2002, five days after

01:02:46.500 Franklin.

01:02:46.900 Between there.

01:02:48.040 I can't remember.

01:02:48.800 So there's two more.

01:02:50.200 And after Linda Franklin,

01:02:51.260 47, was killed.

01:02:52.360 Five days later, October 19th,

01:02:54.020 Jeffrey Hopper, 37, shot in a

01:02:56.180 parking lot at a Ponderosa

01:02:57.400 steakhouse.

01:02:58.600 To me, that is just so

01:02:59.700 That's the one in Ashland.

01:03:00.660 Yeah, that's the one.

01:03:01.660 He did survive.

01:03:02.780 He survived.

01:03:03.540 But, you know, the Ponderosa,

01:03:05.220 God, we all grew up going to the

01:03:06.440 Ponderosa.

01:03:07.100 It's just like these things that

01:03:08.040 are Americana, you know,

01:03:09.860 there's something about it that's

01:03:11.140 just it shakes you to the core.

01:03:13.780 The doctors were able to remove

01:03:14.920 the bullet from from Jeffrey

01:03:16.860 Hopper during surgery and

01:03:18.220 connect it to the others.

01:03:20.780 The ballistics coming back from

01:03:22.160 the other victims.

01:03:23.060 And amazingly, he did survive.

01:03:24.220 The final victim was October 22,

01:03:26.460 2002.

01:03:27.920 Bus driver Conrad Johnson,

01:03:29.640 35 of Oxen Hill, Maryland,

01:03:31.260 shot while just standing on the

01:03:32.860 top step inside of his commuter

01:03:34.340 bus in Aspen Hill, Maryland.

01:03:35.820 He would later die.

01:03:37.440 He was the 13th person known to

01:03:39.480 be shot by the D.C.

01:03:40.500 sniper.

01:03:41.880 Again, three of those survived.

01:03:43.720 Ten were killed.

01:03:44.680 Go ahead, Jim.

01:03:45.860 So what happened was that when

01:03:48.920 when the shot happened, I was

01:03:50.440 actually in the when the shooting

01:03:52.560 happened in Ashland, Virginia, I

01:03:54.040 was actually in Richmond, Virginia

01:03:55.580 at the time.

01:03:56.180 So I came up.

01:03:57.220 My brother got to the crime scene

01:03:59.460 before I did.

01:04:01.000 And he he found,

01:04:03.320 I'd say, a situation in great

01:04:05.620 disarray.

01:04:06.760 And what he did was he was

01:04:08.240 working with the FBI's human

01:04:10.580 scent recovery dogs.

01:04:12.540 And these dogs were

01:04:14.760 specially trained to

01:04:16.680 pick up the scent and

01:04:18.220 and actually follow the path

01:04:20.520 most recently taken by that

01:04:23.740 human if they're in this area.

01:04:25.220 And it's a it's a it's an

01:04:27.320 amazing program, but it would

01:04:28.620 take me many hours to actually

01:04:30.300 explain all the things they did.

01:04:31.960 But when my brother arrived,

01:04:34.100 all of the searchers were

01:04:37.360 going in a particular area

01:04:38.520 because the victim said,

01:04:40.520 I heard the shot and it came

01:04:41.900 from that direction.

01:04:43.400 And when Tim

01:04:45.200 when they presented the scent

01:04:48.180 pads from

01:04:49.520 the tarot card that had been

01:04:51.640 found and also

01:04:53.200 some of the shell casings that

01:04:55.080 had been found, they

01:04:56.680 they were able to

01:04:58.960 they got a scent and their dog

01:05:01.860 said that it was in the

01:05:03.300 opposite direction.

01:05:04.200 And all the cops said,

01:05:06.080 nah, it's not that way.

01:05:07.160 This is the way the victim

01:05:07.980 said it came from.

01:05:09.040 And Tim knew that

01:05:10.280 the guy was standing

01:05:11.820 next to a brick wall

01:05:13.580 and the

01:05:15.260 echoes that you can get

01:05:16.700 off a brick wall of a shot

01:05:18.160 can can make it sound

01:05:19.320 like it comes from anywhere.

01:05:20.520 And so he

01:05:21.860 he the dog takes off

01:05:23.320 in one direction.

01:05:24.000 As soon as they break

01:05:25.020 the line of the woods,

01:05:26.040 he sees an area where

01:05:27.520 it's laid out.

01:05:28.700 It's the leaves are all

01:05:29.820 crushed down like like

01:05:31.080 somebody was laying there

01:05:32.220 and he shines his

01:05:33.980 flashlight up and

01:05:35.000 they're tacked to a

01:05:36.440 tree is a

01:05:37.540 is a little baggie

01:05:39.060 like a Halloween baggie

01:05:40.620 with some pink

01:05:41.760 lined notepaper in it.

01:05:43.520 And he says, well,

01:05:45.300 obviously they left us

01:05:46.560 another message.

01:05:47.760 Unfortunately, there was a

01:05:48.840 big

01:05:49.180 argument about whether

01:05:51.800 or not they should open

01:05:52.740 this thing.

01:05:53.320 But Tim said, I can read

01:05:54.520 through it.

01:05:55.020 And it says.

01:05:57.340 The streets are not

01:05:58.380 safe.

01:05:58.780 Your children are not

01:05:59.860 safe anywhere, he

01:06:00.780 said, there's a threat

01:06:01.640 in this.

01:06:02.120 We need to open it now.

01:06:03.360 We need to get this

01:06:04.240 out to the public.

01:06:05.800 And because

01:06:07.320 it was in a small

01:06:08.500 town and they

01:06:09.580 didn't know who

01:06:10.280 should be in charge,

01:06:11.860 they decided to hold

01:06:13.180 on to it.

01:06:13.680 It was it was now

01:06:14.880 late, late, late

01:06:16.420 until the morning

01:06:17.140 and they wanted to

01:06:18.780 wait till the bosses

01:06:19.980 weighed in.

01:06:20.640 So they did not

01:06:21.500 open it in time

01:06:22.420 to get the call

01:06:23.640 that came into

01:06:24.320 that Ponderosa

01:06:25.500 at the

01:06:27.140 pay phone

01:06:28.860 right at the

01:06:29.420 front door

01:06:30.060 that was ringing

01:06:31.840 while they were

01:06:32.480 still on the scene

01:06:33.380 at six o'clock

01:06:34.600 in the morning

01:06:35.140 and nobody

01:06:35.900 answered the phone.

01:06:36.800 So it was an

01:06:37.420 attempt by the

01:06:38.800 sniper to actually

01:06:39.940 communicate with

01:06:41.580 law enforcement.

01:06:42.220 It's a missed

01:06:43.080 opportunity and

01:06:43.940 there would be

01:06:44.400 others, let me

01:06:45.060 tell you.

01:06:45.920 But the thing

01:06:47.400 that we knew

01:06:48.180 from this letter

01:06:49.180 when we finally

01:06:49.980 got it open

01:06:50.720 and we read

01:06:52.100 what was going

01:06:52.900 on, we saw

01:06:54.420 a huge

01:06:55.840 dichotomy

01:06:56.520 between the

01:06:57.580 actions, the

01:06:58.320 planning and

01:07:00.080 the execution

01:07:01.140 of the shootings

01:07:01.920 and then these

01:07:02.940 communications.

01:07:04.000 And you can see

01:07:05.080 it right now.

01:07:06.040 There are those

01:07:06.380 little stars on it.

01:07:07.660 This is the cover

01:07:08.140 sheet to the letter

01:07:08.960 that you just

01:07:09.380 referenced.

01:07:09.640 Let me just set it

01:07:10.180 up for the cover

01:07:11.260 sheet reads for

01:07:11.760 you, Mr.

01:07:12.240 Police, call me

01:07:12.840 God in quotes.

01:07:13.960 Do not release

01:07:14.760 to the press.

01:07:15.500 Keep going, Jim.

01:07:17.080 Yeah.

01:07:17.300 And you can see

01:07:18.140 there's stars on

01:07:19.000 it like like this

01:07:19.920 was a kindergarten

01:07:20.820 homework assignment

01:07:22.880 that was handed

01:07:23.500 in and done

01:07:24.120 well so the

01:07:24.740 teacher put

01:07:25.260 little stars on

01:07:26.060 it.

01:07:26.480 That's what it

01:07:27.040 looked like.

01:07:27.420 It was very

01:07:28.080 immature and

01:07:28.760 childish.

01:07:29.300 So when we

01:07:30.420 get into the

01:07:31.020 profiling room

01:07:32.340 and we're around

01:07:33.120 our table and

01:07:33.940 we're all arguing

01:07:34.740 about this case

01:07:35.520 and trying to

01:07:36.020 figure out who

01:07:36.900 this sniper is,

01:07:39.260 we had definitely

01:07:41.320 nailed down that

01:07:42.100 this is a very

01:07:43.060 experienced and

01:07:45.020 sophisticated person

01:07:46.500 who's probably

01:07:47.460 now we're

01:07:48.800 thinking in his

01:07:49.780 early to mid

01:07:50.940 40s who is

01:07:52.240 police or

01:07:53.200 military trained

01:07:54.040 police or

01:07:54.840 military experienced

01:07:55.900 who is on a

01:07:58.940 mission.

01:07:59.560 Like he literally

01:08:00.720 has a very

01:08:03.080 specific mission

01:08:04.200 and he's carrying

01:08:05.180 it out flawlessly.

01:08:06.620 Nobody has seen

01:08:07.520 him yet.

01:08:09.020 And so we kind

01:08:12.480 of nailed those

01:08:13.080 aspects of the

01:08:13.720 profile and Jim

01:08:14.960 Fitzgerald says

01:08:15.900 guys, I

01:08:17.240 understand exactly

01:08:18.180 what you're saying

01:08:18.780 and I agree with

01:08:20.260 you, but here's

01:08:21.200 the problem.

01:08:22.500 When this guy's

01:08:23.420 communicating with

01:08:24.500 us, I got to

01:08:26.440 say he's

01:08:28.100 he's immature.

01:08:29.300 He says this is

01:08:30.320 for you, Mr.

01:08:31.180 Police, as if he's

01:08:32.060 looking up to the

01:08:33.000 police, he's

01:08:33.860 writing on, you

01:08:34.940 know, basically

01:08:35.580 on on kids

01:08:38.120 school paper and

01:08:39.120 he's putting stars

01:08:40.040 on it.

01:08:40.380 What kind of

01:08:40.860 self-respecting

01:08:41.860 45 year old man

01:08:43.120 is going to do

01:08:43.900 this?

01:08:44.180 If this guy is

01:08:45.720 an adult, he's

01:08:46.400 just barely

01:08:47.000 adult, but I'm

01:08:47.880 I'm thinking he's

01:08:48.940 younger.

01:08:49.360 This is what Jim

01:08:49.960 Fitzgerald says.

01:08:50.860 And everybody's

01:08:51.600 like, no way,

01:08:52.180 that's not

01:08:52.540 possible.

01:08:52.960 It can't be

01:08:53.680 somebody who's

01:08:54.640 this sophisticated

01:08:55.740 can't be that

01:08:56.880 young.

01:08:57.280 There's no way

01:08:57.880 it's not possible

01:08:58.640 for them to have

01:08:59.280 done this without

01:08:59.780 police, military

01:09:00.560 training and

01:09:01.400 experience on the

01:09:02.600 line of fire.

01:09:03.700 And so I said,

01:09:04.740 look, then we

01:09:06.300 have one of two

01:09:07.260 possibilities here.

01:09:08.900 Either we have

01:09:10.200 a situation where

01:09:12.520 we have a 45

01:09:13.820 year old man

01:09:14.520 who's incredibly

01:09:15.360 experienced, who's

01:09:16.260 incredibly great at

01:09:17.180 planning and

01:09:17.680 executing these

01:09:18.340 shootings, but he

01:09:20.460 decompensates when

01:09:21.600 he's communicating

01:09:22.160 with us and he

01:09:23.760 acts like a

01:09:24.480 teenager or for

01:09:26.540 the first time in

01:09:27.460 U.S.

01:09:28.060 criminal history.

01:09:29.060 We have a sniper

01:09:29.900 team and everybody

01:09:31.140 blew up.

01:09:31.760 No, snipers don't

01:09:32.680 play well with

01:09:33.240 other each other.

01:09:34.120 They don't.

01:09:34.720 They work alone.

01:09:35.980 Every case in

01:09:36.680 history so far has

01:09:37.620 been like this.

01:09:38.440 You're a fool if

01:09:39.040 you think it's

01:09:39.520 otherwise.

01:09:40.580 And Fitz chimes

01:09:41.420 in.

01:09:41.680 He says, well, it

01:09:42.460 would make sense

01:09:43.260 because I'm telling

01:09:44.020 you, whoever wrote

01:09:44.780 this is like a

01:09:46.420 child.

01:09:46.880 How can he be so

01:09:47.820 sophisticated and be

01:09:48.940 a child?

01:09:49.740 And everybody's

01:09:50.580 telling me it can't

01:09:51.340 happen.

01:09:51.960 And I said, well, it

01:09:52.640 could happen if you

01:09:53.920 have a 45 year old

01:09:55.240 and you have a 15

01:09:56.560 year old and the

01:09:57.820 45 year old is

01:09:58.960 controlling the 15

01:10:00.340 year old.

01:10:00.940 You said that at

01:10:01.720 that point.

01:10:03.000 Yeah, I did.

01:10:03.700 And I said, in my

01:10:04.660 mind, the way he

01:10:06.140 could control him

01:10:07.080 best is to totally

01:10:08.980 control him by

01:10:10.200 sexually victimizing

01:10:11.220 him.

01:10:11.780 And everybody says,

01:10:12.580 oh, you're an

01:10:13.120 expert in that

01:10:13.740 field.

01:10:14.260 That's why you

01:10:14.820 think that's

01:10:15.300 happening.

01:10:16.100 They didn't

01:10:16.440 believe it.

01:10:17.240 And I started

01:10:17.760 talking them

01:10:18.340 through it.

01:10:18.940 And I started

01:10:19.600 saying how how

01:10:20.720 this is a

01:10:21.400 possibility.

01:10:22.900 And in fact, I

01:10:24.440 convinced them there

01:10:25.140 was a probability.

01:10:26.400 And we actually put

01:10:28.020 it in the profile at

01:10:29.000 that point.

01:10:30.180 Totally unconfirmed

01:10:31.520 until 11 years

01:10:33.340 later.

01:10:34.320 But well, that one

01:10:35.400 piece of it, but the

01:10:36.180 rest of it would be

01:10:36.760 confirmed within days.

01:10:38.060 Oh, yes.

01:10:38.620 Right.

01:10:38.980 But the part of

01:10:39.680 it about how how

01:10:42.760 these two snipers

01:10:44.200 for the first time

01:10:45.360 in U.S.

01:10:45.780 history were willing

01:10:47.560 and able to work

01:10:48.360 together.

01:10:49.700 One was training

01:10:50.800 the other, it

01:10:51.900 turns out.

01:10:52.500 And Mohammed

01:10:54.480 was sexually

01:10:56.060 abusing Malvo

01:10:57.020 basically from the

01:10:58.960 beginning.

01:11:04.400 It was unfathomable

01:11:06.660 even to these FBI

01:11:08.140 experts, it took a

01:11:09.460 profiler like you

01:11:10.440 to say, trust

01:11:12.180 me, this is a

01:11:13.680 real possibility

01:11:14.560 we need to be

01:11:15.120 taking seriously.

01:11:17.200 And yeah, and

01:11:18.540 can you just can

01:11:19.360 you speak to also

01:11:20.020 to because the

01:11:20.680 other clue that

01:11:21.240 was in this this

01:11:22.560 letter was that

01:11:24.420 phrase, Mr.

01:11:25.600 Police.

01:11:26.240 You spoke to how

01:11:27.100 it suggested he was

01:11:28.240 young, but it

01:11:28.820 suggested something

01:11:29.480 else as well.

01:11:30.840 Right.

01:11:30.980 And another thing

01:11:32.080 that Jim Fitzgerald

01:11:33.140 brought up was

01:11:34.100 the fact that the

01:11:35.400 tarot card plus

01:11:36.840 the phrase Mr.

01:11:38.260 Police, he said

01:11:38.960 Mr.

01:11:39.400 Police is actually

01:11:40.660 a phrase used a

01:11:41.780 lot.

01:11:42.040 It's a

01:11:42.340 disrespectful

01:11:42.960 thing, but it

01:11:46.100 looks polite.

01:11:47.340 It's used a lot

01:11:48.560 in Jamaican

01:11:49.900 reggae songs.

01:11:50.940 So he said, I'm

01:11:52.180 feeling like there's

01:11:53.380 a Jamaican or

01:11:54.300 Caribbean influence

01:11:55.620 in this writer's

01:11:57.560 life.

01:11:58.360 He said, I

01:11:59.500 can't say for

01:12:00.300 sure, but I

01:12:01.820 wouldn't be

01:12:02.220 surprised if this

01:12:03.680 is a Jamaican

01:12:05.400 American or

01:12:07.160 African-American who

01:12:08.500 has Jamaican roots

01:12:09.560 or Caribbean

01:12:10.540 roots.

01:12:11.820 And I said, you

01:12:14.620 know, back at the

01:12:16.580 Michael store

01:12:17.700 shooting, the one

01:12:19.900 eyewitness that the

01:12:21.400 sheriff told me

01:12:22.040 about who he

01:12:22.880 thought was a

01:12:23.400 liar because he

01:12:24.140 was a drug user

01:12:24.940 and had lied to

01:12:25.660 the police before.

01:12:27.180 He said, I'm

01:12:28.360 right.

01:12:29.100 It was a guy

01:12:29.940 with a big

01:12:30.660 afro, a black

01:12:32.240 guy who peeled

01:12:33.040 out in a dark

01:12:33.820 sedan.

01:12:34.600 We need to we

01:12:36.140 need to change

01:12:36.960 this profile

01:12:38.540 from a white

01:12:40.060 van work

01:12:42.220 van to

01:12:43.620 a dark

01:12:45.020 sedan.

01:12:45.820 And we're

01:12:46.960 probably looking

01:12:47.920 for two

01:12:50.080 African-Americans

01:12:52.260 with some tie

01:12:54.600 to the

01:12:55.520 Caribbean.

01:12:55.900 and that

01:12:57.780 changed

01:12:58.280 everything.

01:12:59.340 Now you've

01:12:59.560 got a different

01:13:00.020 profile.

01:13:00.500 And as it

01:13:01.020 would turn

01:13:01.380 out, you

01:13:02.220 got the

01:13:02.560 right one, but

01:13:03.760 you don't have

01:13:04.320 the guys and

01:13:05.220 you don't have

01:13:05.760 the right car.

01:13:08.040 And, you know,

01:13:08.880 still there's

01:13:09.900 white van.

01:13:10.320 We don't know

01:13:10.640 which car it is.

01:13:11.520 We just have a

01:13:12.140 general feeling.

01:13:13.540 And it turns out

01:13:14.360 as they went

01:13:14.960 back and

01:13:15.620 interviewed people

01:13:16.580 who were

01:13:17.560 around the

01:13:18.620 neighborhood of

01:13:19.260 the first two

01:13:20.780 or three days of

01:13:21.580 shooting, one of

01:13:22.900 them had also

01:13:23.840 seen not a

01:13:25.260 car racing

01:13:25.940 away from

01:13:26.960 the scene, but

01:13:28.740 a dark sedan

01:13:29.360 slowly pulling

01:13:30.780 away from the

01:13:31.440 scene.

01:13:32.100 That is a

01:13:33.240 smart tactician.

01:13:34.520 That is

01:13:34.900 somebody who

01:13:35.400 knows that

01:13:36.160 racing away

01:13:37.020 is going to

01:13:38.080 raise the

01:13:38.620 awareness and

01:13:39.380 set off the

01:13:39.900 alarms.

01:13:40.780 But slowly

01:13:41.740 driving down a

01:13:42.660 neighborhood

01:13:42.940 street, it

01:13:44.280 probably isn't

01:13:45.000 going to really

01:13:45.480 stand out in

01:13:46.200 anybody's mind.

01:13:47.760 And so how

01:13:48.220 did we get

01:13:48.720 from that

01:13:49.300 point to

01:13:50.560 just a few

01:13:51.780 days later,

01:13:52.440 the final

01:13:52.820 victim was

01:13:53.260 shot on

01:13:53.600 October 22nd.

01:13:55.320 And within

01:13:56.280 48 hours,

01:13:59.700 there was an

01:14:02.720 arrest.

01:14:03.360 And in

01:14:03.520 between, I

01:14:04.020 should say

01:14:04.380 this, you

01:14:05.760 mentioned Chief

01:14:07.060 Moose.

01:14:08.220 I mean, right

01:14:08.980 around that time,

01:14:09.700 right before the

01:14:10.280 capture, he

01:14:11.760 had this message

01:14:12.880 for the community,

01:14:13.960 which still

01:14:14.480 sounded rather

01:14:15.400 scary.

01:14:15.920 This is

01:14:16.240 soundbite one.

01:14:18.880 The person

01:14:19.820 or people

01:14:20.500 have

01:14:23.240 demonstrated

01:14:23.840 a willingness

01:14:24.440 and ability

01:14:25.160 to shoot

01:14:25.660 people of

01:14:26.140 all ages,

01:14:27.080 all races,

01:14:28.060 all genders,

01:14:29.100 and they've

01:14:30.320 struck at

01:14:30.700 different times

01:14:31.540 of the day,

01:14:32.580 different days,

01:14:33.960 at different

01:14:34.360 locations.

01:14:37.160 We recognize

01:14:38.200 the concerns

01:14:39.040 of the community

01:14:39.760 and therefore

01:14:40.740 are going to

01:14:42.580 provide the

01:14:43.060 exact language

01:14:43.900 in the message

01:14:44.800 that pertains

01:14:46.060 to the threat.

01:14:46.740 it is in

01:14:48.900 the form

01:14:49.260 of a

01:14:49.600 postscript.

01:14:53.480 Your

01:14:54.080 children

01:14:54.500 are not

01:14:55.300 saved

01:14:55.680 anywhere

01:14:56.580 at any

01:14:57.720 time.

01:14:59.620 My

01:14:59.720 God,

01:15:00.780 the thought

01:15:01.460 of hearing

01:15:01.920 that.

01:15:02.980 Yeah, that

01:15:03.260 would be

01:15:03.480 pretty scary.

01:15:04.200 And if

01:15:04.760 you notice,

01:15:05.440 the person

01:15:06.020 standing

01:15:06.420 behind

01:15:07.160 Chief

01:15:07.740 Moose

01:15:07.960 at that

01:15:08.300 moment,

01:15:08.720 I believe

01:15:09.300 was an

01:15:09.640 FBI agent.

01:15:10.360 what he

01:15:13.320 said was

01:15:14.260 basically

01:15:14.840 exactly what

01:15:16.100 we recommended

01:15:17.080 that he

01:15:17.520 say.

01:15:18.240 And I

01:15:18.840 think my

01:15:19.220 brother had

01:15:19.840 a great

01:15:20.220 deal to

01:15:20.680 do with

01:15:21.160 the fact

01:15:21.580 that that

01:15:22.000 line came

01:15:22.640 out because

01:15:23.340 he was

01:15:24.380 very,

01:15:25.000 very adamant

01:15:25.900 that people

01:15:28.080 should know

01:15:28.600 that the

01:15:28.960 children of

01:15:29.740 this community

01:15:30.220 are being,

01:15:30.780 of the entire

01:15:31.580 area,

01:15:32.220 are being

01:15:32.520 threatened

01:15:32.960 by these

01:15:33.580 guys so

01:15:34.020 that they

01:15:34.280 would protect

01:15:34.800 their kids

01:15:35.360 so that we

01:15:36.220 wouldn't put

01:15:36.780 kids in

01:15:37.420 harm's way.

01:15:38.640 And what

01:15:38.920 happened was

01:15:40.120 they wanted

01:15:41.260 to just

01:15:42.120 hide the

01:15:42.640 fact that

01:15:43.260 there was

01:15:43.620 a direct

01:15:44.000 threat in

01:15:44.680 the letter.

01:15:45.300 But we

01:15:45.760 said it

01:15:46.640 will actually

01:15:47.420 appease the

01:15:48.620 shooter if

01:15:49.700 you continue

01:15:51.260 his line of

01:15:52.100 communication.

01:15:52.640 If you put

01:15:53.460 it out there,

01:15:54.540 he knows

01:15:55.580 it's going

01:15:55.960 to scare

01:15:56.340 people.

01:15:56.720 He will

01:15:57.040 feel good

01:15:57.560 about it.

01:15:59.300 He might

01:16:00.020 calm down.

01:16:01.260 Because we

01:16:01.800 showed the

01:16:02.300 cover sheet

01:16:02.820 to that

01:16:03.140 letter left

01:16:03.720 by the

01:16:04.160 Ponderosa,

01:16:05.320 but the

01:16:05.820 body of

01:16:06.440 it,

01:16:07.120 per CBS

01:16:07.720 reporting at

01:16:08.200 the time,

01:16:08.460 the body

01:16:08.760 of it

01:16:09.160 read,

01:16:10.640 included a

01:16:11.620 demand for

01:16:12.020 $10 million

01:16:12.400 giving the

01:16:13.360 16-digit

01:16:13.980 account number

01:16:14.520 and a

01:16:15.220 PIN that

01:16:16.060 was from

01:16:16.680 a stolen

01:16:17.080 Bank of

01:16:17.440 America

01:16:17.720 platinum

01:16:18.000 credit card.

01:16:18.940 And it

01:16:19.080 included the

01:16:19.620 chilling

01:16:19.800 postscript,

01:16:20.580 quote,

01:16:21.260 your children

01:16:21.820 are not

01:16:22.420 safe anywhere

01:16:23.240 at any

01:16:23.900 time.

01:16:25.760 So,

01:16:25.980 yeah,

01:16:26.200 so the

01:16:26.700 threat had

01:16:27.420 been made

01:16:27.860 and now

01:16:28.460 Chief Moose

01:16:29.660 was listening

01:16:30.180 to you.

01:16:31.280 It's pointless

01:16:32.300 to go out

01:16:32.820 there and

01:16:33.160 tell the

01:16:33.440 community

01:16:33.700 that they

01:16:34.080 are safe

01:16:34.700 and that

01:16:34.920 you've got

01:16:35.160 it under

01:16:35.400 control.

01:16:36.220 A,

01:16:36.340 it's not

01:16:36.620 true,

01:16:37.140 and B,

01:16:37.520 it's provocative

01:16:38.260 to the

01:16:38.760 sniper.

01:16:39.280 Right.

01:16:39.780 Absolutely.

01:16:40.500 And so what

01:16:41.020 happens at

01:16:41.560 this point

01:16:42.080 is that,

01:16:43.780 and this is

01:16:44.140 something we

01:16:44.540 were trying

01:16:44.960 to encourage,

01:16:45.620 we were trying

01:16:46.420 to encourage

01:16:47.100 communication

01:16:47.840 from the

01:16:49.080 sniper or

01:16:49.880 snipers at

01:16:50.700 this point.

01:16:51.180 And what

01:16:52.820 happened was

01:16:53.580 they called

01:16:54.900 the,

01:16:56.080 the,

01:16:57.040 excuse me,

01:16:57.300 they called

01:16:57.760 the hotline

01:16:58.380 and very

01:16:59.060 unfortunately,

01:17:00.280 um,

01:17:01.940 when they

01:17:02.420 called,

01:17:02.820 they said,

01:17:03.500 call me

01:17:03.820 God.

01:17:04.340 And people

01:17:05.980 on the

01:17:07.040 task force

01:17:07.880 who took

01:17:08.900 that call

01:17:09.680 thought that

01:17:11.000 it was just

01:17:11.720 somebody gaming

01:17:12.840 them and

01:17:13.940 scamming

01:17:14.520 them.

01:17:14.800 And,

01:17:15.420 uh,

01:17:15.880 they actually

01:17:16.660 hung up the

01:17:17.560 phone.

01:17:18.000 They called

01:17:18.340 back again.

01:17:19.060 Uh,

01:17:20.060 they actually

01:17:20.500 wrote about

01:17:21.040 this in that

01:17:21.620 note.

01:17:21.980 Um,

01:17:23.120 it was very

01:17:23.580 unfortunate.

01:17:24.540 Uh,

01:17:25.100 but eventually

01:17:26.080 one thing

01:17:27.660 that they

01:17:28.100 did was

01:17:28.840 they called

01:17:29.440 up a

01:17:30.040 priest and

01:17:32.140 they left

01:17:32.720 a voice

01:17:33.760 message on

01:17:35.040 that priest's

01:17:36.980 voice recording,

01:17:39.260 phone recording,

01:17:40.860 answering machine,

01:17:41.700 sorry.

01:17:42.120 Voicemail.

01:17:42.600 It's been so

01:17:43.000 long.

01:17:43.540 It's been so

01:17:43.980 long.

01:17:44.240 I couldn't

01:17:44.400 even remember

01:17:44.940 what it was

01:17:45.340 called.

01:17:47.260 Anyway,

01:17:48.000 on his

01:17:48.420 answering

01:17:48.880 machine and

01:17:50.400 and in

01:17:51.480 that they

01:17:52.460 said you

01:17:54.420 should look

01:17:56.080 what happened

01:17:57.220 in and I'm

01:17:58.260 and I'm

01:17:59.180 I'm trying

01:18:01.560 to remember

01:18:02.360 the name of

01:18:02.820 town.

01:18:03.100 It might

01:18:03.300 have been

01:18:03.520 Arlington.

01:18:04.200 Where was

01:18:04.640 that shot

01:18:05.160 fired through

01:18:05.680 the, uh,

01:18:06.660 through the

01:18:06.900 Apple, excuse

01:18:07.640 me, through

01:18:08.060 the Michael's

01:18:08.780 store where

01:18:09.640 nobody got

01:18:10.100 hit?

01:18:10.980 Yes.

01:18:11.400 Um, hold

01:18:11.980 on a second.

01:18:12.560 Wasn't that

01:18:13.320 that was a

01:18:14.240 Michael's in

01:18:14.700 Aspen Hill,

01:18:15.440 Maryland.

01:18:16.380 All right.

01:18:17.240 Um, the,

01:18:18.420 I'm talking

01:18:18.760 about, yeah,

01:18:19.340 before that

01:18:20.000 there was

01:18:20.300 actually a

01:18:20.800 shooting in,

01:18:21.500 in, um,

01:18:22.600 Montgomery,

01:18:23.260 Alabama,

01:18:24.100 right?

01:18:24.420 There you

01:18:24.900 go.

01:18:25.140 Okay.

01:18:25.440 Yeah.

01:18:25.780 So that

01:18:26.600 was one of

01:18:27.000 the ones

01:18:27.220 that we

01:18:27.500 hadn't yet

01:18:28.060 discussed.

01:18:28.460 That was

01:18:28.760 on the

01:18:29.040 list, right?

01:18:29.660 Not

01:18:29.960 attributable

01:18:30.700 to the

01:18:31.080 sniper yet,

01:18:31.600 but, but

01:18:32.000 other murders

01:18:32.560 were happening

01:18:33.020 in the

01:18:33.260 country at

01:18:34.020 and around

01:18:34.260 this time.

01:18:34.680 And one

01:18:35.220 of them

01:18:35.460 was about

01:18:35.780 to get

01:18:36.040 linked

01:18:36.300 in.

01:18:37.200 Right.

01:18:37.480 And so

01:18:37.840 what happened

01:18:38.300 was in

01:18:39.020 the, in

01:18:39.840 the message

01:18:40.300 that was

01:18:40.840 left on

01:18:41.360 this priest

01:18:41.960 answering

01:18:42.640 machine,

01:18:43.300 they said,

01:18:44.420 look at

01:18:45.460 the

01:18:45.680 shooting

01:18:46.180 in

01:18:46.700 Montgomery

01:18:47.260 and

01:18:48.460 everybody

01:18:49.100 there,

01:18:50.260 because we

01:18:51.140 were talking

01:18:51.800 about the

01:18:52.440 first days

01:18:53.180 of shootings

01:18:53.780 in Montgomery

01:18:54.660 County,

01:18:55.160 thought it

01:18:56.120 was Montgomery

01:18:56.900 County,

01:18:57.500 Maryland.

01:18:58.180 But somebody

01:18:59.400 came up

01:18:59.840 with the

01:19:00.080 idea,

01:19:01.020 hmm,

01:19:01.820 maybe he's

01:19:02.320 talking about

01:19:03.140 Montgomery,

01:19:04.420 Alabama.

01:19:05.460 It could

01:19:06.280 be.

01:19:07.280 And so

01:19:07.740 they looked

01:19:08.400 at to see

01:19:09.060 if there

01:19:09.280 were any

01:19:09.740 unsolved

01:19:10.620 shootings

01:19:11.000 there.

01:19:11.520 And yes,

01:19:12.600 there was

01:19:13.280 a store

01:19:13.940 and somebody

01:19:16.520 came in

01:19:17.460 and picked

01:19:20.160 up a

01:19:20.500 magazine and

01:19:21.640 then left.

01:19:22.500 And then a

01:19:22.820 couple of

01:19:23.120 minutes later,

01:19:23.680 a bullet

01:19:24.140 goes flying

01:19:24.920 through the

01:19:25.480 window,

01:19:26.040 just misses

01:19:26.660 a woman

01:19:27.580 behind the

01:19:28.360 cash register.

01:19:29.940 And in

01:19:30.140 that case,

01:19:30.920 they picked

01:19:31.800 up, they

01:19:32.860 had picked

01:19:33.220 up a

01:19:33.540 magazine.

01:19:34.140 And let me

01:19:34.480 just tell

01:19:34.820 you, glossy

01:19:35.400 magazines are

01:19:36.580 the absolute

01:19:37.520 best surface

01:19:38.740 in the world

01:19:39.540 for collecting

01:19:40.800 fingerprints.

01:19:41.700 If you touch

01:19:42.800 that, the

01:19:43.580 oils in

01:19:44.500 your finger

01:19:45.300 will interact

01:19:46.260 with the

01:19:47.840 photograph

01:19:48.760 that's on

01:19:49.660 the cover

01:19:50.140 and it

01:19:50.980 actually burns

01:19:51.880 it in

01:19:52.240 permanently,

01:19:53.200 burns your

01:19:53.600 fingerprint in

01:19:54.340 permanently

01:19:54.780 into that

01:19:55.460 picture.

01:19:56.640 And if

01:19:56.880 you've ever

01:19:57.200 tried to,

01:19:57.840 that's why

01:19:58.180 people who

01:19:58.680 are trying

01:19:58.900 to save

01:19:59.260 magazines

01:19:59.700 will put

01:20:00.000 them in

01:20:00.320 plastic

01:20:00.960 sleeves so

01:20:01.600 they don't

01:20:01.960 get destroyed

01:20:02.600 that way.

01:20:03.480 Well, they

01:20:04.300 had a

01:20:04.520 perfect

01:20:04.900 fingerprint

01:20:05.380 which came

01:20:06.200 back to

01:20:06.920 a 15-year-old

01:20:09.280 named Malvo

01:20:11.040 who they

01:20:13.040 were then

01:20:13.540 able to

01:20:14.260 track to

01:20:15.460 a relationship

01:20:17.100 with an

01:20:17.960 older male,

01:20:19.620 Mohammed,

01:20:21.140 back in the

01:20:21.980 state, who

01:20:22.400 was from the

01:20:22.980 state of

01:20:23.300 Washington.

01:20:24.300 And they

01:20:25.300 found his

01:20:26.140 car, he

01:20:27.320 had a

01:20:27.760 Caprice,

01:20:28.420 they got his

01:20:29.020 license plate,

01:20:30.600 and the FBI

01:20:32.340 went to his

01:20:33.420 place in the

01:20:34.200 state of

01:20:34.500 Washington and

01:20:35.640 basically did a

01:20:36.340 search warrant.

01:20:36.880 they found

01:20:37.620 a tree

01:20:38.060 stump in

01:20:38.480 his

01:20:38.620 backyard,

01:20:39.580 they literally

01:20:40.240 excavated the

01:20:41.160 tree stump,

01:20:42.040 shipped it to

01:20:42.580 the lab,

01:20:43.720 took out lots

01:20:44.560 of different

01:20:45.020 bullets from

01:20:45.720 it, and

01:20:46.280 matched them

01:20:47.000 to the

01:20:47.500 shooter in

01:20:49.320 the DC

01:20:49.900 sniper case.

01:20:50.980 So we

01:20:51.660 knew then

01:20:52.340 who we

01:20:53.040 were looking

01:20:53.420 for, and

01:20:54.700 when that

01:20:55.380 APB had

01:20:56.180 gone out

01:20:56.740 with the

01:20:57.760 profile and

01:20:58.980 everything

01:20:59.660 meshed

01:21:00.160 together,

01:21:00.860 then within

01:21:02.300 24 hours,

01:21:03.780 they were

01:21:04.040 actually spotted

01:21:04.780 by a trucker

01:21:05.640 at a rest

01:21:06.460 stop,

01:21:06.760 sleeping in

01:21:07.460 the Caprice,

01:21:09.340 and the

01:21:10.460 FBI's HRT

01:21:11.780 team moved

01:21:12.960 in, there

01:21:13.440 were hundreds

01:21:14.100 of other

01:21:14.740 law enforcement

01:21:16.420 and truckers

01:21:17.840 actually chipped

01:21:19.140 in and helped

01:21:19.800 blocking off

01:21:20.660 roadways and

01:21:22.320 the escape

01:21:22.900 routes so

01:21:24.020 that they

01:21:24.440 couldn't get

01:21:24.900 away and

01:21:25.860 they were

01:21:26.260 taken down

01:21:26.920 without

01:21:27.360 anybody, any

01:21:28.380 further loss

01:21:28.940 of life.

01:21:29.780 Jim, why

01:21:30.200 did they call

01:21:31.580 that in?

01:21:32.240 I mean, it

01:21:32.480 was in a

01:21:33.420 way a

01:21:34.000 confession to

01:21:35.060 say, check

01:21:36.180 out that

01:21:36.760 the shooting

01:21:37.700 in Montgomery.

01:21:38.820 I don't know

01:21:39.320 that they knew

01:21:39.720 that they left

01:21:40.220 a fingerprint,

01:21:40.960 but they

01:21:41.700 must have

01:21:42.560 known it

01:21:42.800 could potentially

01:21:43.260 be tied

01:21:43.640 to them.

01:21:44.840 He felt

01:21:45.380 omnipotent at

01:21:46.300 this point.

01:21:46.920 He felt like

01:21:47.560 there's no way.

01:21:48.340 He felt law

01:21:48.900 enforcement was

01:21:49.480 so stupid they

01:21:50.160 would never

01:21:50.460 catch him.

01:21:51.000 He was

01:21:51.320 bragging.

01:21:52.540 He was

01:21:53.000 trying to get

01:21:53.760 people to

01:21:54.980 realize that

01:21:55.980 he was even

01:21:56.400 better and

01:21:57.360 he'd done

01:21:57.820 much more

01:21:58.500 than they

01:21:59.160 thought he

01:21:59.560 did.

01:21:59.800 And now

01:22:00.440 it actually

01:22:01.260 gets tracked

01:22:01.900 back to

01:22:02.380 a number

01:22:02.920 of other

01:22:03.580 crimes that

01:22:04.220 occurred in

01:22:05.120 a spree that

01:22:05.880 had gone all

01:22:06.740 the way across

01:22:07.360 the U.S.

01:22:08.280 where Muhammad

01:22:09.000 was training

01:22:09.720 Malvo how

01:22:10.960 to kill

01:22:11.360 people.

01:22:12.460 Right.

01:22:12.560 And that's

01:22:12.980 the category

01:22:13.780 that we left

01:22:14.900 out of the

01:22:15.320 initial discussion,

01:22:16.000 but I said it

01:22:16.940 was at least

01:22:17.740 20 people that

01:22:18.540 they shot.

01:22:19.920 13 we went

01:22:20.760 through, but

01:22:21.200 there were at

01:22:21.640 least seven

01:22:22.100 more in the

01:22:23.680 month leading

01:22:24.240 up to the

01:22:24.900 D.C.

01:22:25.260 sniper spree

01:22:26.060 as he was

01:22:27.060 training this

01:22:27.760 young teenager.

01:22:28.780 They met, as I

01:22:29.520 understand it, in

01:22:30.240 the Caribbean.

01:22:31.660 Malvo's mother

01:22:32.340 was not the

01:22:33.400 greatest and

01:22:34.580 somehow allowed

01:22:35.620 him to be

01:22:37.900 just kind of

01:22:38.480 turned over

01:22:39.200 to this guy

01:22:40.400 and Muhammad

01:22:43.180 started training

01:22:44.000 him to kill

01:22:44.600 and Malvo

01:22:45.380 went along

01:22:45.820 with it.

01:22:46.840 Right.

01:22:47.020 Well, what

01:22:47.500 ended up

01:22:48.400 happening was

01:22:49.500 it wouldn't

01:22:50.620 really come

01:22:51.720 out to 11

01:22:52.360 years later

01:22:52.940 when Malvo

01:22:53.600 spoke publicly

01:22:54.420 and he did

01:22:55.380 this to his

01:22:56.140 great, I

01:22:58.680 don't know,

01:22:59.520 detriment

01:22:59.880 because speaking

01:23:01.600 about this

01:23:02.740 in Jamaica,

01:23:03.940 which is an

01:23:04.640 extremely homophobic

01:23:06.520 place to this

01:23:07.580 day, they

01:23:08.900 consider if

01:23:10.020 you're a male

01:23:11.240 and you're

01:23:11.560 sexually victimized

01:23:12.500 by a male,

01:23:13.160 they consider

01:23:13.700 that homosexual

01:23:14.860 activity on

01:23:16.640 the victim's

01:23:17.260 part.

01:23:17.940 I mean, it

01:23:18.180 has nothing to

01:23:18.920 do with the

01:23:19.480 victim's sexuality.

01:23:20.360 It has to do

01:23:21.020 with an older

01:23:21.860 person taking

01:23:22.580 advantage of a

01:23:23.940 younger person.

01:23:24.540 But Malvo

01:23:25.380 came out

01:23:25.920 and said

01:23:26.380 that when

01:23:27.460 Muhammad picked

01:23:28.560 him up out

01:23:29.040 of this shelter,

01:23:30.160 basically he

01:23:31.120 was homeless,

01:23:31.920 his mother

01:23:32.280 had abandoned

01:23:32.860 him, his

01:23:33.240 mother had

01:23:33.600 abandoned him

01:23:34.120 several times

01:23:34.920 already in

01:23:35.460 his life

01:23:35.880 before the

01:23:37.360 time he

01:23:37.760 reached 15

01:23:38.700 years of age

01:23:39.300 and his

01:23:39.980 father was

01:23:40.440 completely

01:23:40.840 absent in

01:23:41.460 his life.

01:23:43.260 Muhammad came

01:23:45.380 in and said,

01:23:46.340 I'll be your

01:23:47.320 father figure,

01:23:48.400 I'll train you,

01:23:49.520 I'll make you

01:23:50.400 a man.

01:23:50.780 And he

01:23:51.780 slowly was

01:23:53.020 grooming him

01:23:53.760 into this

01:23:54.320 sexual

01:23:54.660 victimization

01:23:55.360 and he

01:23:56.040 was also

01:23:56.740 training him

01:23:58.680 to become

01:23:59.580 a killer.

01:24:00.300 At first,

01:24:01.420 it was target

01:24:02.300 practice and

01:24:03.120 then it

01:24:03.440 evolved into

01:24:04.540 human

01:24:05.520 murder.

01:24:08.500 Sick.

01:24:10.060 Very.

01:24:10.980 The car,

01:24:12.020 can we talk

01:24:12.500 about it?

01:24:12.860 Because once

01:24:13.780 you guys got

01:24:14.700 to look at

01:24:15.000 the car,

01:24:16.080 things would

01:24:16.400 become much

01:24:16.900 more clear

01:24:17.500 about how

01:24:18.480 they were

01:24:18.840 getting away

01:24:19.380 with this,

01:24:20.480 how they

01:24:20.840 were approaching,

01:24:22.400 can you talk

01:24:23.000 about what

01:24:23.420 the car told

01:24:24.300 you?

01:24:25.080 Yeah,

01:24:25.460 sure.

01:24:25.720 Well,

01:24:25.940 first of all,

01:24:26.580 the car was

01:24:27.060 a very old

01:24:28.360 Caprice,

01:24:29.340 one of these

01:24:30.100 large,

01:24:31.060 oversized cars

01:24:32.000 that would

01:24:32.440 never make

01:24:32.980 it today

01:24:33.360 because it's

01:24:34.560 so big

01:24:35.220 and it's

01:24:35.880 a gas guzzler.

01:24:37.500 What they did

01:24:38.280 was they cut

01:24:38.980 a little hole

01:24:39.760 out in the

01:24:40.860 back by the

01:24:41.640 license plate

01:24:42.380 so that you

01:24:43.780 could basically

01:24:44.640 fold down the

01:24:45.640 seats and lay

01:24:46.900 inside and

01:24:48.260 stick just

01:24:49.080 the point

01:24:49.520 of the rifle

01:24:50.100 out of the

01:24:51.360 rifle barrel

01:24:52.040 out of that

01:24:52.940 hole and there

01:24:54.200 was enough

01:24:54.600 room for you

01:24:55.220 to see the

01:24:55.960 sight to

01:24:56.560 sight your

01:24:57.100 target but

01:24:58.400 you can also

01:24:58.900 see how it

01:25:00.360 would limit

01:25:00.920 them from

01:25:01.880 shooting very

01:25:03.220 high or very

01:25:04.080 low because

01:25:04.780 you have a

01:25:06.240 very limited

01:25:07.040 entrance where

01:25:09.680 the gun

01:25:11.700 barrel could

01:25:12.500 be protruding

01:25:13.580 from.

01:25:14.420 So most of

01:25:15.460 the sound of

01:25:16.100 the shot is

01:25:16.720 going to be

01:25:17.060 contained within

01:25:18.060 that trunk.

01:25:19.860 If they

01:25:20.740 weren't wearing

01:25:21.460 headphones in

01:25:22.440 there they

01:25:23.020 would have

01:25:23.640 blown their

01:25:24.360 their eardrums

01:25:25.480 out if they

01:25:26.120 kept firing

01:25:26.700 that weapon

01:25:27.200 in such a

01:25:27.660 closed space

01:25:28.220 but we

01:25:29.200 understand that

01:25:29.940 a number of

01:25:30.620 the shootings

01:25:31.180 were done

01:25:32.000 by Muhammad

01:25:32.780 and some of

01:25:33.920 them were

01:25:34.480 quote training

01:25:35.460 shots done

01:25:36.460 by Malvo.

01:25:37.980 Wow.

01:25:39.100 They may have

01:25:39.740 been the ones

01:25:40.400 that people

01:25:41.140 survived because

01:25:42.760 it's very

01:25:43.740 difficult for us

01:25:44.500 to think

01:25:44.920 that Malvo

01:25:46.180 at such

01:25:46.740 a young

01:25:47.060 age would

01:25:47.580 have been

01:25:47.860 able to

01:25:48.200 carry out

01:25:48.820 the shootings

01:25:49.400 that happened

01:25:49.960 in the beginning

01:25:50.560 and at least

01:25:51.560 in one of

01:25:54.360 the cases

01:25:54.840 we know

01:25:55.820 that somebody

01:25:57.040 saw Malvo

01:25:59.060 driving away

01:26:00.520 from the

01:26:02.160 scene.

01:26:02.560 That was the

01:26:03.120 Spotsylvania Mall

01:26:04.440 Michaels.

01:26:05.640 And they also

01:26:05.980 had, he's

01:26:07.260 spoken about how

01:26:08.520 he admits to

01:26:09.460 killing people

01:26:09.960 himself but he

01:26:10.640 also says he

01:26:11.680 was the lookout.

01:26:12.880 He would make

01:26:13.680 sure that there

01:26:14.320 was no one in

01:26:15.360 the line of

01:26:16.020 fire, not for

01:26:16.880 that person's

01:26:17.320 protection but

01:26:17.860 just so that they

01:26:18.360 didn't have that

01:26:18.980 many witnesses and

01:26:19.760 it was a clear

01:26:20.200 shot.

01:26:21.420 So one would

01:26:21.840 scout and the

01:26:22.800 other one would

01:26:23.340 kill and they

01:26:24.080 had done something

01:26:24.980 with the back

01:26:25.520 seat to make it

01:26:26.240 possible I guess

01:26:26.840 to lie down

01:26:27.740 from the back

01:26:29.620 seat straight

01:26:30.100 into the trunk.

01:26:30.860 So I assume on

01:26:31.800 your belly you

01:26:32.340 can be in

01:26:33.060 shooting position.

01:26:34.460 Yes, absolutely.

01:26:36.540 But what was

01:26:37.580 even more

01:26:38.520 disturbing than

01:26:39.460 everything that

01:26:40.220 had come out

01:26:42.360 was when we

01:26:43.940 found out that

01:26:45.660 Muhammad's actual

01:26:47.860 motive, although

01:26:49.380 he said what he

01:26:50.160 was doing is

01:26:50.680 training Malvo to

01:26:52.400 be a killer and

01:26:53.820 that he wanted to

01:26:54.760 create a school

01:26:55.640 for kids his

01:26:56.940 age and he

01:26:58.380 would train all

01:26:59.040 of them and he

01:26:59.640 would form an

01:27:00.300 army to just

01:27:01.500 take over and

01:27:03.360 fight the

01:27:04.920 oppression that

01:27:05.660 he grew up in

01:27:06.840 and that kind

01:27:08.220 of stuff.

01:27:08.740 That was all

01:27:09.300 just garbage.

01:27:09.960 What it

01:27:10.340 actually was

01:27:11.180 was his

01:27:12.500 wife had

01:27:13.080 gotten custody

01:27:13.860 of their

01:27:14.200 children.

01:27:15.060 He was pissed

01:27:15.920 off and he

01:27:17.340 was going to

01:27:18.080 kill his wife

01:27:18.940 so that he

01:27:19.460 could then

01:27:20.100 regain custody

01:27:21.000 of his

01:27:21.320 children.

01:27:22.380 And what he

01:27:22.840 did was he

01:27:23.740 made this

01:27:24.120 whole plan up

01:27:25.260 so that he

01:27:26.000 could kill a

01:27:26.480 whole bunch

01:27:26.920 of people and

01:27:28.020 then shoot his

01:27:28.920 wife as part

01:27:30.280 of this.

01:27:31.820 Hoping that it

01:27:32.700 would just be

01:27:33.620 seen as one of

01:27:35.180 the random

01:27:35.840 victims and

01:27:37.360 nobody would

01:27:38.040 suspect him

01:27:38.760 he would be

01:27:40.000 awarded his

01:27:41.040 children back.

01:27:42.060 Here is

01:27:42.900 Muhammad's

01:27:43.640 ex-wife on

01:27:44.620 how she found

01:27:45.360 out that he

01:27:46.840 was the

01:27:47.160 suspect and

01:27:48.160 what she

01:27:49.540 thought.

01:27:50.000 This is

01:27:50.140 Sot3.

01:27:50.460 The way I

01:27:53.020 found out that

01:27:53.760 it was John

01:27:54.600 was when ATF

01:27:56.020 knocked on my

01:27:56.660 door and said

01:27:57.980 that they were

01:27:58.500 going to name

01:27:59.900 John as the

01:28:00.760 sniper.

01:28:02.420 And so they

01:28:03.280 asked me,

01:28:03.920 well, do you

01:28:04.940 think that he

01:28:05.940 would do

01:28:06.260 something like

01:28:06.800 this?

01:28:07.100 And I was

01:28:07.560 like, well,

01:28:08.300 I don't know.

01:28:10.040 Yeah.

01:28:11.380 I said, well,

01:28:11.960 why would you

01:28:12.580 think that?

01:28:13.180 I said, well,

01:28:14.260 he said he

01:28:14.920 could take a

01:28:15.400 small city,

01:28:16.460 terrorize it.

01:28:17.640 They would

01:28:18.080 think it would

01:28:18.560 be a group of

01:28:19.240 people and it

01:28:19.980 would only be

01:28:20.660 me.

01:28:22.260 I mean, I

01:28:23.200 wonder, Jim,

01:28:24.340 did anybody

01:28:25.120 ask her, so

01:28:26.820 when we had a

01:28:28.360 sniper problem

01:28:29.040 on our hands,

01:28:30.040 did you ever

01:28:30.920 think that could

01:28:31.660 be my ex-husband?

01:28:34.140 I don't, I

01:28:35.060 think in general

01:28:35.820 people, when

01:28:36.380 things, terrible

01:28:37.380 things happen,

01:28:38.360 generally people

01:28:40.220 in the community

01:28:40.700 don't think it's

01:28:41.420 going to happen

01:28:41.780 to them.

01:28:42.640 We still feel

01:28:43.440 like this distance.

01:28:44.360 I think in

01:28:45.340 this particular

01:28:46.260 case, you

01:28:48.860 know,

01:28:49.240 I've spoken

01:28:49.900 to her

01:28:50.380 personally about

01:28:51.460 this.

01:28:52.200 I think she

01:28:53.100 was, she

01:28:54.520 was not at

01:28:55.300 all, especially

01:28:55.960 the white

01:28:56.540 band of it

01:28:57.220 and, and

01:28:58.300 all that, all

01:28:59.460 these distractions

01:29:00.280 that were out

01:29:00.940 there.

01:29:01.540 And, and

01:29:02.440 since he

01:29:03.860 never, he

01:29:04.620 didn't specifically

01:29:05.380 tell her that

01:29:06.340 he would be a

01:29:07.320 sniper, but he

01:29:08.800 did say he

01:29:09.660 could terrorize

01:29:10.380 the town and

01:29:11.020 kill a bunch

01:29:12.100 of people and

01:29:12.700 then kill her

01:29:13.580 and everybody

01:29:14.420 would think it

01:29:14.980 would be all

01:29:15.400 part of that

01:29:15.880 same plan.

01:29:16.760 So what, I

01:29:17.380 really don't

01:29:17.940 believe that she

01:29:18.620 knew.

01:29:19.280 Okay, but I

01:29:20.020 don't think

01:29:20.260 she knew

01:29:20.520 either.

01:29:20.900 I just, I

01:29:21.240 just, I

01:29:21.740 just wondered

01:29:22.120 if, you

01:29:22.480 know, it

01:29:22.700 occurred to

01:29:23.060 her after

01:29:23.400 that threat.

01:29:25.260 How do

01:29:25.820 you take a,

01:29:26.940 you know, not

01:29:28.000 well-treated, I

01:29:28.680 guess, not

01:29:29.100 well-raised, but

01:29:30.300 not terrorist,

01:29:31.660 15-year-old boy,

01:29:33.080 and turn him

01:29:33.840 into what he

01:29:34.580 calls a

01:29:35.400 monster?

01:29:36.160 Malvo is still

01:29:36.980 sitting in

01:29:37.480 prison.

01:29:38.300 I'll set it up

01:29:39.040 with this

01:29:39.400 soundbite from

01:29:39.980 him.

01:29:41.880 Not long

01:29:42.520 ago, this is

01:29:43.300 soundbite six.

01:29:43.980 I mean, I

01:29:46.720 was a

01:29:47.080 monster.

01:29:48.140 If you

01:29:51.580 look up the

01:29:52.020 definition, I

01:29:53.300 mean, that's

01:29:53.560 what a

01:29:53.760 monster is.

01:29:54.380 I was a

01:29:54.960 ghoul.

01:29:55.740 I was a

01:29:56.240 thief.

01:29:56.680 I stole

01:29:57.340 people's

01:29:57.780 lives.

01:29:59.020 I did

01:29:59.500 someone else

01:30:01.660 bidding just

01:30:03.020 because they

01:30:03.500 said so.

01:30:05.060 I mean, that

01:30:05.720 is the

01:30:06.020 definition of

01:30:06.640 a monster.

01:30:07.040 That was

01:30:09.680 him speaking

01:30:10.020 to the

01:30:10.220 Washington

01:30:10.460 Post in

01:30:11.200 2012.

01:30:12.600 Yeah, I

01:30:13.300 think what

01:30:13.860 happened was

01:30:15.020 a combination

01:30:16.000 of, remember

01:30:16.720 I talked

01:30:17.160 about the

01:30:18.000 genetics,

01:30:19.780 loading the

01:30:20.260 gun,

01:30:20.840 personality

01:30:21.200 psychology,

01:30:21.980 aiming it,

01:30:22.980 and the

01:30:23.660 experiences

01:30:24.100 pulled the

01:30:24.580 trigger.

01:30:24.960 I think in

01:30:25.360 his case,

01:30:26.480 because he

01:30:27.360 was born in

01:30:28.980 a situation

01:30:30.100 that was not

01:30:31.300 only poverty

01:30:31.940 stricken,

01:30:32.840 but he

01:30:34.260 himself had

01:30:36.060 been taken

01:30:36.480 advantage of

01:30:37.060 a number

01:30:37.480 of times,

01:30:38.340 and not

01:30:39.160 just sexually

01:30:39.780 with Muhammad,

01:30:41.240 but other

01:30:42.100 things that

01:30:42.680 had happened

01:30:43.060 to him,

01:30:43.500 and he

01:30:43.740 was basically

01:30:44.340 booted from

01:30:45.020 place to

01:30:45.560 place and

01:30:46.240 living on

01:30:46.920 the streets,

01:30:47.620 scrapping for

01:30:48.180 himself.

01:30:48.720 He didn't

01:30:49.020 feel connected

01:30:49.600 to society

01:30:50.480 at all,

01:30:51.300 and the

01:30:51.940 fact that

01:30:52.540 Muhammad

01:30:53.060 was sexually

01:30:54.340 victimizing

01:30:55.020 him,

01:30:55.400 which is

01:30:55.740 manipulating

01:30:56.860 him and

01:30:57.740 grooming him

01:30:58.440 both as a

01:30:59.540 sexual abuse

01:31:00.520 victim and

01:31:01.300 as a

01:31:01.760 killer,

01:31:02.420 what he

01:31:02.840 did was

01:31:04.080 the choice

01:31:05.240 of weapon,

01:31:06.040 the

01:31:06.180 separation

01:31:06.700 between the

01:31:08.400 shooters and

01:31:09.060 the victims

01:31:09.660 gave Muhammad

01:31:11.940 the ability

01:31:12.620 to tell,

01:31:13.860 to teach

01:31:14.520 Malvo that

01:31:16.340 they're nobody.

01:31:17.980 You don't know

01:31:18.540 them,

01:31:18.820 they don't know

01:31:19.300 you,

01:31:19.680 there's no

01:31:20.040 connection here,

01:31:21.000 it's easy to

01:31:21.980 do.

01:31:22.780 And I think

01:31:23.300 just it was a

01:31:25.060 perfect storm,

01:31:26.100 both the needs

01:31:27.320 that this kid

01:31:28.140 had and he

01:31:29.980 had to have

01:31:30.620 the potentiality.

01:31:31.840 I mean,

01:31:32.060 I don't know

01:31:32.540 how much anger

01:31:33.420 and rage

01:31:33.960 had built

01:31:34.320 up inside

01:31:34.900 of him,

01:31:35.280 but certainly

01:31:35.860 being victimized

01:31:37.340 over and over

01:31:37.900 again by

01:31:38.480 Muhammad and

01:31:39.440 the same

01:31:40.880 person that

01:31:41.520 you looked

01:31:41.920 up to,

01:31:42.520 the same

01:31:43.020 person that

01:31:43.600 you thought

01:31:44.060 of as a

01:31:44.700 father figure

01:31:45.400 because you

01:31:46.080 didn't have

01:31:46.560 one.

01:31:46.820 This is what

01:31:47.160 he was

01:31:47.380 searching for

01:31:47.920 in his

01:31:48.160 life.

01:31:48.720 It was a

01:31:49.380 deadly

01:31:50.560 combination.

01:31:52.060 My God,

01:31:52.540 he starts

01:31:52.940 hurting you

01:31:53.660 and he

01:31:54.220 starts making

01:31:55.220 you hurt

01:31:55.720 others.

01:31:56.800 Here's a

01:31:57.240 little bit

01:31:57.580 more of

01:31:58.080 Malvo

01:31:58.440 recounting

01:31:59.160 how it

01:32:00.320 was that

01:32:00.740 Muhammad

01:32:01.020 took hold

01:32:01.540 of him,

01:32:01.980 Sat Seventh.

01:32:03.420 He gave

01:32:04.800 me his

01:32:05.180 time.

01:32:06.840 His

01:32:07.400 time.

01:32:07.960 That's the

01:32:08.260 only thing

01:32:08.860 we possess.

01:32:10.100 And where

01:32:10.520 we invested

01:32:11.180 tells what

01:32:12.100 we value.

01:32:13.120 He gave

01:32:13.740 me his

01:32:14.180 time.

01:32:15.680 He was

01:32:16.000 consistent.

01:32:17.880 Even though

01:32:18.720 the consistency

01:32:19.420 was madness,

01:32:20.220 he was

01:32:20.540 consistent.

01:32:21.760 He gave

01:32:22.420 me his

01:32:23.060 time.

01:32:25.140 Wow.

01:32:26.040 His

01:32:26.400 time,

01:32:27.120 Muhammad's

01:32:27.640 time,

01:32:28.740 ran out

01:32:29.340 on November

01:32:30.180 10th,

01:32:30.720 2009,

01:32:31.540 when he was

01:32:31.960 executed by

01:32:32.720 lethal

01:32:33.020 injection,

01:32:34.320 he declined

01:32:35.340 to make

01:32:35.720 a final

01:32:36.040 statement.

01:32:37.020 He was

01:32:37.400 48 years

01:32:38.160 old when

01:32:38.660 he died.

01:32:39.680 He was

01:32:39.980 41 years

01:32:40.740 old at

01:32:41.160 the time

01:32:41.440 of his

01:32:41.780 arrest.

01:32:44.080 And the

01:32:44.560 courts and

01:32:46.760 the

01:32:46.980 legislatures,

01:32:47.720 the Supreme

01:32:48.080 Court,

01:32:48.400 have gone

01:32:48.880 round and

01:32:49.340 round on

01:32:49.920 the younger

01:32:50.360 of the

01:32:51.180 pair,

01:32:51.600 on Malvo,

01:32:52.300 because the

01:32:53.460 Supreme Court

01:32:54.000 would eventually

01:32:55.060 rule that

01:32:56.100 it is

01:32:57.020 unconstitutional

01:32:57.880 in 2012

01:33:00.360 to pass

01:33:01.420 down

01:33:01.640 mandatory

01:33:02.000 life

01:33:02.300 sentences

01:33:02.620 without

01:33:02.920 parole

01:33:03.220 for

01:33:03.440 juvenile

01:33:03.740 offenders,

01:33:04.320 that it

01:33:04.640 violates

01:33:04.960 the Eighth

01:33:05.240 Amendment

01:33:05.480 prohibition

01:33:07.200 on cruel

01:33:07.940 and unusual

01:33:08.320 punishment,

01:33:08.980 and therefore

01:33:09.500 what to do

01:33:10.920 with Malvo.

01:33:11.820 So he'd

01:33:12.240 been tried

01:33:12.820 in a

01:33:14.060 couple of

01:33:14.380 different

01:33:14.600 states,

01:33:15.100 and in

01:33:16.360 Virginia,

01:33:17.420 they did

01:33:18.160 change the

01:33:18.660 law to

01:33:19.980 not allowing

01:33:21.980 life without

01:33:22.920 parole

01:33:23.260 sentences

01:33:23.800 for

01:33:24.380 juveniles,

01:33:25.160 so he

01:33:26.720 can't have

01:33:27.240 a life

01:33:28.220 sentence

01:33:28.600 without

01:33:29.040 parole

01:33:29.340 there right

01:33:30.360 now.

01:33:31.120 But if

01:33:31.840 he were

01:33:32.220 paroled

01:33:32.620 from

01:33:32.800 Virginia,

01:33:33.740 then he

01:33:34.580 would have

01:33:34.820 to begin

01:33:35.100 serving his

01:33:35.640 Maryland

01:33:35.980 sentence,

01:33:37.520 and there's

01:33:38.320 a question

01:33:38.620 about whether

01:33:38.920 he could

01:33:39.200 ever get

01:33:39.500 out or

01:33:39.840 whether he

01:33:40.160 would just

01:33:40.380 be in

01:33:40.620 jail in

01:33:41.140 perpetuity

01:33:41.620 because one

01:33:42.220 state after

01:33:42.600 the other

01:33:42.840 would start

01:33:43.160 executing

01:33:43.640 their

01:33:43.900 sentences

01:33:44.220 against

01:33:44.620 him.

01:33:45.540 I

01:33:45.740 don't

01:33:45.860 know.

01:33:46.140 You

01:33:46.220 tell me

01:33:46.500 because

01:33:46.620 Malvo's

01:33:46.980 attorneys

01:33:47.260 right now

01:33:47.660 are seeking

01:33:48.060 sentencing

01:33:48.580 release

01:33:49.180 or

01:33:49.660 release

01:33:50.600 or

01:33:51.480 release,

01:33:52.180 which seems

01:33:53.260 that seems

01:33:54.060 impossible to

01:33:55.180 me.

01:33:56.140 Well, I

01:33:57.120 don't know.

01:33:57.700 I'm not sure

01:33:58.240 what's going

01:33:58.640 to happen.

01:33:59.420 I will say

01:33:59.940 this.

01:34:00.420 I mean,

01:34:01.220 Malvo was

01:34:01.800 pretty messed

01:34:02.660 up at the

01:34:03.340 time of his

01:34:03.780 arrest.

01:34:04.500 I've seen

01:34:05.120 some of the

01:34:05.600 art that he

01:34:06.380 produced when

01:34:07.280 he was in

01:34:07.620 his cell.

01:34:08.820 Some of his

01:34:09.560 statements at

01:34:10.200 the time were

01:34:11.340 very, very

01:34:12.980 negative.

01:34:13.620 He had been

01:34:14.300 really pushed

01:34:15.540 over to the

01:34:16.160 dark side.

01:34:16.920 I mean, I'm

01:34:17.200 not saying that

01:34:17.780 he didn't make

01:34:18.340 choices, but he

01:34:19.240 made 15-year-old

01:34:20.160 choices.

01:34:21.500 And sometimes

01:34:22.380 that can be

01:34:23.580 reversed.

01:34:24.540 When you hear

01:34:25.040 him speak

01:34:25.560 today, he

01:34:26.260 says a lot

01:34:26.940 of the right

01:34:27.340 things.

01:34:27.760 He may one

01:34:28.400 day be able

01:34:28.980 to convince

01:34:29.480 a parole

01:34:29.900 board that

01:34:30.580 he's been

01:34:31.080 rehabilitated.

01:34:32.000 Whether that's

01:34:32.540 true or not,

01:34:33.040 I don't know.

01:34:34.020 But I do

01:34:34.540 think that

01:34:35.940 the way,

01:34:37.200 at least the

01:34:37.940 way the law

01:34:38.420 is right now,

01:34:39.700 if he does

01:34:40.340 get released

01:34:40.880 from Virginia,

01:34:41.400 he will be

01:34:42.240 serving time

01:34:43.040 in Maryland.

01:34:45.480 And I don't

01:34:46.440 see that he'll

01:34:48.700 be able to

01:34:49.580 ever get

01:34:50.700 out.

01:34:51.220 I think

01:34:52.660 even our

01:34:53.340 current

01:34:53.920 soft-on-crime

01:34:54.780 policies don't

01:34:55.980 go to the

01:34:56.580 likes of the

01:34:57.200 DC sniper.

01:34:58.960 Understanding of

01:34:59.720 the two, he

01:35:00.520 was not the

01:35:01.320 most culpable.

01:35:02.320 But you

01:35:02.780 can't kill and

01:35:03.700 terrorize that

01:35:04.840 many people and

01:35:05.480 walk free again.

01:35:06.700 He did get

01:35:07.400 married in

01:35:08.220 prison.

01:35:08.740 It never

01:35:09.220 ceases to

01:35:09.720 amaze me.

01:35:10.300 Never ceases

01:35:10.800 to amaze me,

01:35:11.360 Jim.

01:35:11.500 These women

01:35:11.820 who marry

01:35:12.140 prisoners, I

01:35:13.320 don't know

01:35:13.540 what, you

01:35:14.040 could do a

01:35:14.340 whole profile

01:35:14.780 on them, I'm

01:35:15.340 sure.

01:35:15.780 I could.

01:35:16.520 Right?

01:35:16.700 This woman, she

01:35:18.240 started writing

01:35:18.920 to him, then

01:35:20.660 she went in,

01:35:21.580 they said it

01:35:21.920 was beautiful,

01:35:22.860 they were

01:35:23.080 allowed to

01:35:23.420 hold hands,

01:35:24.140 the institution

01:35:24.620 was very

01:35:25.040 accommodating,

01:35:25.680 his state

01:35:26.140 prison in

01:35:26.660 Virginia.

01:35:29.100 He's enriched

01:35:29.920 her life as

01:35:30.700 much as she

01:35:31.240 has enriched

01:35:31.780 his.

01:35:32.560 I mean, I

01:35:32.860 don't know

01:35:33.040 what that

01:35:33.320 says about

01:35:33.600 her life.

01:35:34.860 And one

01:35:35.780 of his

01:35:36.020 original trial

01:35:36.620 attorneys comes

01:35:37.380 out and says

01:35:37.860 he's met

01:35:38.200 the bride,

01:35:38.780 very impressive

01:35:39.340 young lady,

01:35:40.180 educated,

01:35:41.060 her eyes are

01:35:41.780 wide open,

01:35:43.040 close in age to

01:35:43.820 Malvo, who's

01:35:44.340 now 37.

01:35:45.040 And they

01:35:46.600 are, quote,

01:35:47.460 soulmates,

01:35:48.580 according to

01:35:49.440 the lawyer.

01:35:51.000 Well, I

01:35:51.480 think there's

01:35:52.060 a lot involved

01:35:53.120 in that

01:35:53.440 psychology and

01:35:54.060 it happens

01:35:54.500 very often.

01:35:55.340 I mean, it

01:35:55.580 happened with

01:35:56.260 Ramirez here

01:35:57.560 in California.

01:35:58.260 I mean, they

01:35:58.540 made him into

01:35:59.260 a rock star.

01:35:59.940 All these

01:36:00.340 women were

01:36:01.140 literally throwing

01:36:02.480 themselves at

01:36:03.160 him.

01:36:03.440 It was really

01:36:04.100 Wait, which

01:36:05.180 guy was that?

01:36:05.820 Remind me.

01:36:07.240 Rescindes.

01:36:07.820 No, Ramirez,

01:36:08.900 the Night

01:36:09.200 Stalker here in

01:36:10.300 California.

01:36:10.620 Oh, the Night

01:36:10.940 Stalker.

01:36:11.400 Yeah, he

01:36:12.520 killed a lot

01:36:14.500 of people.

01:36:14.980 He was very

01:36:15.440 brutal.

01:36:15.940 He was very

01:36:16.320 bloody.

01:36:16.820 I mean, some

01:36:17.660 of the stuff

01:36:18.060 I can't even

01:36:18.580 recount that

01:36:19.540 he did.

01:36:21.100 But one of

01:36:22.120 the problems

01:36:22.700 is that I

01:36:24.240 think the

01:36:24.920 women that

01:36:25.860 typically will

01:36:26.520 do this,

01:36:27.100 some of them

01:36:27.620 are very

01:36:27.980 religious and

01:36:28.700 they feel

01:36:29.260 like they

01:36:29.780 have a

01:36:30.740 mission to

01:36:31.300 save these

01:36:32.220 people.

01:36:33.440 Others

01:36:33.960 feel so

01:36:36.080 insecure and

01:36:37.680 insignificant in

01:36:38.480 their own

01:36:38.880 life that they

01:36:39.480 want some

01:36:40.460 connection to

01:36:41.680 something famous

01:36:42.880 or even

01:36:43.580 infamous.

01:36:44.760 And it's

01:36:45.440 actually kind

01:36:46.240 of safe.

01:36:47.940 You can be

01:36:48.780 next to a

01:36:49.680 serial killer

01:36:50.380 but be safe

01:36:52.260 because that

01:36:53.480 serial killer is

01:36:54.440 in prison for

01:36:55.060 the rest of

01:36:55.460 his life.

01:36:55.920 So you can

01:36:56.900 maintain this

01:36:57.540 connection,

01:36:58.320 have this

01:36:58.960 proximity to

01:37:01.940 fame, and

01:37:03.220 yet not have

01:37:04.120 the risk.

01:37:05.320 So it's a

01:37:06.800 very, very

01:37:07.580 strange psychology

01:37:09.140 that puts

01:37:10.140 people in

01:37:10.620 this place.

01:37:11.300 But as

01:37:11.720 you said,

01:37:12.240 it happens

01:37:12.720 so often and

01:37:13.900 so many of

01:37:14.920 these killers

01:37:15.540 who I like

01:37:16.620 to forget

01:37:16.980 the names

01:37:17.480 of actually

01:37:19.100 end up

01:37:20.420 getting married

01:37:21.100 to mainly

01:37:23.080 women on

01:37:23.600 the outside

01:37:24.020 who have

01:37:25.820 this kind

01:37:26.400 of complex.

01:37:27.440 Yep.

01:37:27.740 It happened

01:37:28.140 with Eric

01:37:29.300 Menendez too.

01:37:30.360 Somebody married

01:37:30.820 him.

01:37:31.640 I just feel

01:37:32.000 like these

01:37:32.280 women who

01:37:32.680 would spend

01:37:33.260 their lives

01:37:33.780 like that

01:37:34.700 when, you

01:37:35.640 know, it's

01:37:35.960 not like

01:37:36.280 every man's a

01:37:36.960 peach, but

01:37:37.500 at least

01:37:37.860 the ones

01:37:38.240 who, you

01:37:38.700 know, you

01:37:39.040 can actually

01:37:39.500 touch might

01:37:40.680 be a more

01:37:42.120 fruitful place

01:37:43.000 to cast

01:37:43.520 your rod

01:37:44.640 and reel.

01:37:46.520 I don't

01:37:47.060 have a lot

01:37:48.300 of sympathy,

01:37:48.800 I have to

01:37:49.080 say.

01:37:49.420 I don't

01:37:49.760 think that

01:37:50.120 they should

01:37:50.400 let this

01:37:50.740 guy out of

01:37:51.120 jail.

01:37:51.560 I will

01:37:51.860 say that

01:37:53.100 as now

01:37:53.660 the Virginia

01:37:54.100 law has

01:37:54.480 been softened

01:37:55.140 consistent with

01:37:55.960 the U.S.

01:37:56.440 Supreme Court

01:37:56.860 ruling,

01:37:57.940 they're now

01:37:58.540 looking at

01:37:59.100 getting the

01:37:59.560 sentencing

01:37:59.960 release from

01:38:01.140 Maryland,

01:38:02.000 which would be

01:38:02.380 next up to

01:38:03.080 hold him,

01:38:04.040 and we're

01:38:04.500 told a decision

01:38:05.320 in Maryland

01:38:06.040 could come

01:38:06.600 this month

01:38:07.680 on that.

01:38:08.800 So it's a

01:38:09.640 timely discussion

01:38:10.320 we're having.

01:38:11.060 I don't think

01:38:11.460 the odds are

01:38:11.860 in his favor.

01:38:12.480 I mean,

01:38:12.680 Maryland is

01:38:13.860 pretty blue.

01:38:15.040 Even Virginia

01:38:15.640 is these days,

01:38:16.580 but not

01:38:17.660 that blue.

01:38:18.620 And I

01:38:19.100 gotta leave

01:38:19.500 it on this

01:38:20.480 note, Jim,

01:38:20.920 because you

01:38:21.120 spent a lot

01:38:21.600 of years

01:38:21.840 at the FBI.

01:38:22.700 I know

01:38:22.860 your brother

01:38:23.180 did too.

01:38:25.660 Thoughts

01:38:26.020 on the

01:38:26.880 difference

01:38:27.300 then and

01:38:27.980 now,

01:38:28.440 the way

01:38:28.680 we look

01:38:29.020 at our

01:38:29.220 FBI,

01:38:29.740 the way

01:38:29.900 America

01:38:30.260 thinks about

01:38:31.260 its FBI,

01:38:32.580 the partisan

01:38:33.100 politics that

01:38:33.760 have been on

01:38:34.360 display out

01:38:34.820 of that

01:38:35.020 organization

01:38:35.500 over the

01:38:35.820 past few

01:38:36.260 years.

01:38:37.380 And I

01:38:37.760 know you're

01:38:37.980 retired now,

01:38:38.660 but how

01:38:39.740 you think

01:38:40.540 about it?

01:38:41.500 Well,

01:38:41.620 I certainly

01:38:41.960 still know

01:38:42.700 a number

01:38:43.180 of people

01:38:43.600 who continue

01:38:44.420 to work

01:38:44.740 for the

01:38:45.000 FBI,

01:38:45.840 and we

01:38:47.320 have sort

01:38:47.940 of a

01:38:48.120 lift-serve

01:38:48.620 that we

01:38:49.740 correspond to

01:38:50.640 all the

01:38:50.880 retired agents

01:38:51.840 together.

01:38:53.000 And to

01:38:53.900 a man

01:38:54.800 and woman,

01:38:55.720 everybody's

01:38:56.540 very upset

01:38:58.360 with the

01:38:59.700 image of the

01:39:00.200 FBI now.

01:39:01.320 And unfortunately,

01:39:02.380 some of

01:39:03.740 the really

01:39:04.740 negative

01:39:05.260 things,

01:39:05.780 I mean,

01:39:06.080 I think

01:39:06.560 the most

01:39:07.040 horrific

01:39:07.720 thing that

01:39:08.660 came out

01:39:09.900 against the

01:39:10.600 FBI was

01:39:11.440 the lack

01:39:12.820 of

01:39:13.420 involvement

01:39:14.880 in the

01:39:15.200 Nassar

01:39:15.560 investigation.

01:39:16.800 But I

01:39:17.740 think a lot

01:39:18.220 of the

01:39:18.480 political

01:39:18.860 things that

01:39:19.480 have happened

01:39:20.080 are happening

01:39:21.940 way,

01:39:22.520 way,

01:39:22.740 way up

01:39:23.100 here.

01:39:23.640 But the

01:39:23.960 agents,

01:39:24.720 the street

01:39:25.120 agents,

01:39:25.660 the people

01:39:26.220 who dedicate

01:39:27.000 their lives

01:39:27.660 and careers

01:39:28.300 and put

01:39:28.720 their lives

01:39:29.180 on the

01:39:29.460 line,

01:39:29.940 not the

01:39:30.300 administrators,

01:39:31.180 not the

01:39:31.680 leaders of

01:39:32.700 it,

01:39:32.860 but the

01:39:33.440 people who

01:39:33.880 put their

01:39:34.180 lives on

01:39:34.620 the line,

01:39:35.700 they have

01:39:36.960 remained

01:39:37.620 absolutely the

01:39:39.180 same throughout

01:39:40.300 all of this.

01:39:41.460 And they will

01:39:42.280 continue to,

01:39:43.080 and I think

01:39:43.400 that's the

01:39:43.920 saving grace

01:39:44.500 for the

01:39:45.200 FBI.

01:39:46.060 You don't

01:39:46.760 become an

01:39:47.820 FBI agent

01:39:48.520 because you

01:39:50.220 do it for

01:39:50.980 the money.

01:39:51.500 You don't

01:39:51.860 become an

01:39:52.280 FBI agent

01:39:52.880 because you're

01:39:54.020 lazy and you

01:39:55.140 can't find

01:39:55.820 something else

01:39:56.340 to do.

01:39:56.680 The FBI

01:39:57.780 picks,

01:39:58.340 and I'm

01:39:58.760 not trying

01:39:59.140 to be

01:39:59.660 self-aggrandizing

01:40:01.580 here.

01:40:01.940 I feel very

01:40:02.820 lucky to have

01:40:03.460 had the

01:40:03.880 opportunity to

01:40:04.440 become an

01:40:04.800 FBI agent

01:40:05.480 and to

01:40:05.840 work there

01:40:06.220 for 22

01:40:06.760 years.

01:40:07.400 But the

01:40:08.300 FBI picks

01:40:09.020 people.

01:40:10.160 There are

01:40:10.400 hundreds of

01:40:11.200 thousands of

01:40:11.700 people who

01:40:12.120 apply to

01:40:12.560 the FBI

01:40:13.040 and not

01:40:15.740 that many

01:40:16.300 get picked

01:40:16.900 up every

01:40:17.400 year,

01:40:17.820 maybe a

01:40:18.240 thousand

01:40:18.560 every year.

01:40:19.720 And the

01:40:20.340 fact is

01:40:20.900 there's only

01:40:21.500 about 14,000

01:40:23.020 agents in

01:40:23.700 the whole

01:40:23.980 country and

01:40:24.520 around the

01:40:24.940 world.

01:40:25.600 So it's

01:40:26.600 a very

01:40:26.940 picky job

01:40:27.800 and it's

01:40:28.140 very difficult

01:40:28.740 to get

01:40:29.120 in.

01:40:29.340 It's very

01:40:29.920 difficult to

01:40:30.540 maintain your

01:40:31.280 job there.

01:40:32.120 And part of

01:40:33.040 that is the

01:40:33.500 excellence that

01:40:34.240 they demand

01:40:34.800 from you.

01:40:35.580 And I think

01:40:36.940 that that

01:40:37.820 excellence has

01:40:38.500 not changed

01:40:39.320 and it is

01:40:40.060 what's going

01:40:40.500 to save the

01:40:41.320 image of the

01:40:41.820 FBI because

01:40:43.680 literally the

01:40:44.960 people who

01:40:45.500 have laid

01:40:46.640 down their

01:40:47.120 lives for

01:40:48.240 people in

01:40:49.340 the FBI,

01:40:50.080 and we lost

01:40:51.340 quite a few

01:40:52.320 agents in the

01:40:52.940 last few years.

01:40:53.540 some of

01:40:53.940 them were

01:40:54.860 first responders

01:40:55.580 on 9-11

01:40:56.280 and got

01:40:56.620 cancer and

01:40:58.380 others, there

01:40:59.380 were two

01:40:59.660 agents that

01:41:00.060 were killed

01:41:00.380 in Florida

01:41:00.900 just executing

01:41:02.000 a child

01:41:02.900 sex crimes

01:41:04.120 warrant,

01:41:05.180 search warrant

01:41:05.800 at a house.

01:41:06.560 And it's

01:41:07.420 just, it's a

01:41:07.980 dangerous job

01:41:08.860 and the

01:41:09.820 people that

01:41:10.260 do it are

01:41:11.020 good people.

01:41:12.520 Unfortunately,

01:41:13.420 I think when

01:41:14.580 law enforcement

01:41:15.820 officers or

01:41:17.500 agents get

01:41:18.180 involved in

01:41:19.720 politics or

01:41:21.040 political

01:41:21.480 decisions, it

01:41:23.060 can never

01:41:23.560 go right.

01:41:24.620 Yeah, it

01:41:25.140 brings shame

01:41:25.660 upon the

01:41:26.060 whole organization.

01:41:27.380 To your

01:41:27.700 credit, I

01:41:28.160 should point

01:41:28.580 out, you

01:41:29.100 obviously were

01:41:30.000 an FBI

01:41:30.580 supervisory

01:41:31.200 special agent,

01:41:31.880 a profiler,

01:41:32.560 22 years with

01:41:33.240 the FBI,

01:41:34.320 investigated all

01:41:35.080 sorts of

01:41:35.420 cases,

01:41:35.760 bankruptcies,

01:41:36.380 serial killers,

01:41:37.160 public

01:41:37.320 corruption,

01:41:38.540 sex crimes,

01:41:39.640 abductions,

01:41:40.720 homicides,

01:41:41.100 on it goes.

01:41:42.160 But there

01:41:43.000 are only 25

01:41:44.500 profilers out

01:41:45.480 of 14,000

01:41:46.440 FBI agents,

01:41:47.520 and you were

01:41:47.880 one of them,

01:41:48.360 very competitive.

01:41:49.940 So to your

01:41:50.520 credit, you

01:41:51.440 had an amazing

01:41:52.440 career with

01:41:52.900 them, and

01:41:53.200 continue.

01:41:53.700 And now,

01:41:54.600 speaking about

01:41:55.200 these stories,

01:41:55.900 you have a

01:41:56.360 production company,

01:41:57.060 XG Productions,

01:41:57.780 we talked about

01:41:58.280 Am I Dating a

01:41:58.920 Serial Killer,

01:41:59.620 which you can

01:42:00.100 find on Audible

01:42:00.740 if you want to

01:42:01.200 hear more about

01:42:01.660 that, a different

01:42:02.600 host, but she

01:42:03.400 gets into it.

01:42:04.640 And then another

01:42:05.280 one called Best

01:42:05.940 Case, Worst Case,

01:42:07.140 that's on Spotify

01:42:07.900 and Apple, and

01:42:08.720 you're in that

01:42:09.320 one, and that

01:42:10.600 seems to be kind

01:42:11.520 of what we're

01:42:12.240 doing here,

01:42:13.120 taking listeners

01:42:13.740 behind police

01:42:14.460 lines, giving

01:42:15.760 them unparalleled

01:42:16.720 access to law

01:42:17.380 enforcement, looking

01:42:18.040 back at some of

01:42:18.760 the most memorable

01:42:19.420 cases that they

01:42:20.180 were on.

01:42:21.480 Sounds like you

01:42:22.080 got a bunch of

01:42:22.940 episodes.

01:42:24.040 Are they out

01:42:24.540 now?

01:42:25.100 Yeah, we have

01:42:26.000 over 300

01:42:26.760 episodes out.

01:42:27.820 Yeah, that's

01:42:28.220 amazing.

01:42:29.100 Yeah, and

01:42:29.860 basically, Francie

01:42:31.340 Hakes, who's a

01:42:31.920 former state and

01:42:32.960 local and federal

01:42:33.940 prosecutor, she and

01:42:35.660 I host Best

01:42:36.860 Case, Worst Case.

01:42:37.540 We talk to

01:42:38.460 cops and

01:42:39.760 lawyers and

01:42:40.920 related law

01:42:41.800 enforcement

01:42:42.200 professionals about

01:42:43.280 their careers and

01:42:44.400 what's the best

01:42:45.180 case and the

01:42:45.900 worst case that

01:42:47.080 they remember from

01:42:48.000 their career.

01:42:48.560 And what that

01:42:49.240 does is it

01:42:49.820 shows people

01:42:50.720 what the

01:42:51.360 spectrum, the

01:42:52.600 continuum of

01:42:53.360 the kinds of

01:42:54.020 cases that law

01:42:55.400 enforcement has

01:42:56.100 to live with and

01:42:57.200 also the kinds

01:42:58.400 of people that

01:42:59.400 make up law

01:43:00.220 enforcement.

01:43:01.300 There's 17,000

01:43:03.240 law enforcement

01:43:03.840 agencies in the

01:43:04.480 United States,

01:43:04.900 over 500,000

01:43:06.160 officers and

01:43:08.220 agents, and

01:43:09.320 they're a very

01:43:10.840 diverse group of

01:43:11.920 people, but

01:43:12.760 only a few

01:43:14.180 make the bad

01:43:15.620 choices that make

01:43:16.420 the headlines.

01:43:17.480 The rest of

01:43:18.020 them dedicate

01:43:18.940 their lives,

01:43:20.160 literally put

01:43:20.740 their lives on

01:43:21.360 the line, and

01:43:22.100 many of them

01:43:22.940 lose their lives

01:43:23.820 over the course

01:43:24.380 or get injured

01:43:25.220 over the course

01:43:25.740 of their careers,

01:43:26.580 but they are a

01:43:28.660 good group of

01:43:29.620 people who are

01:43:30.260 trying to do

01:43:30.980 good and help

01:43:31.660 people stay

01:43:32.640 safe and stop

01:43:33.800 crime.

01:43:34.940 And that's a

01:43:36.100 really laudable

01:43:37.600 thing.

01:43:38.520 And that's

01:43:38.760 something of

01:43:39.240 which the

01:43:39.560 public needs

01:43:40.260 to be reminded.

01:43:42.160 Those of us

01:43:42.720 on our own

01:43:43.780 show have very

01:43:45.100 close connections,

01:43:46.020 family,

01:43:46.240 connections with

01:43:47.220 law enforcement,

01:43:47.760 try to remember

01:43:48.260 that in all of

01:43:49.780 this madness when

01:43:50.520 the reporting

01:43:50.960 hits that's

01:43:51.560 dishonest and

01:43:52.400 politically driven.

01:43:53.860 Thank you for

01:43:54.300 your service and

01:43:55.820 to be continued.

01:43:57.200 Well, thank you

01:43:57.780 for doing this.

01:43:58.500 I appreciate the

01:43:59.400 opportunity to be

01:44:00.060 here.

01:44:00.840 Wow.

01:44:01.300 What a story.

01:44:02.180 What a case.

01:44:03.260 Thank you all

01:44:03.900 for joining us

01:44:04.520 today and all

01:44:05.840 week.

01:44:06.380 You can find

01:44:07.040 more of our

01:44:07.560 true crime content

01:44:08.840 on Apple,

01:44:09.700 Spotify, or

01:44:10.900 wherever you get

01:44:11.420 your podcasts for

01:44:12.440 free.

01:44:13.120 And check us out

01:44:13.580 on YouTube.

01:44:14.020 Go over there and

01:44:14.500 subscribe to our

01:44:15.140 channel, youtube.com

01:44:16.140 slash Megan Kelly.

01:44:17.520 And we would

01:44:18.220 appreciate you

01:44:19.040 smashing that

01:44:19.960 like button and

01:44:20.900 keep on coming

01:44:21.620 back for more

01:44:22.220 great content.

01:44:23.180 We appreciate it.

01:44:26.320 Thanks for

01:44:26.940 listening to the

01:44:27.520 Megan Kelly show.

01:44:28.640 No BS,

01:44:29.440 no agenda,

01:44:30.200 and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - June 16, 2022

The D.C. Sniper： A Megyn Kelly Show True Crime Special ｜ Ep. 343

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