The Megyn Kelly Show - The Debate Mess, with Hugh Hewitt, Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti ｜ Ep. 2

00:00:00.480 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:11.600 Hey everybody, it's me, Megyn Kelly, and welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:15.160 Of course, today we're talking about the hot mess of the presidential debate last night.

00:00:20.680 We've got Hugh Hewitt here today along with Crystal Ball and Sagar and Jetty to have full analysis for you.

00:00:25.940 We've got our favorite clips, and I will have a reaction of my own to the moderation, to the candidates, and to where we probably now stand in this race.

00:00:36.360 But first, before we get to all that, we have to talk about your security.

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00:02:08.900 And joining me now, before we get to Hugh Hewitt and Crystal Ball and Sagar and Jetty, is Steve Krakoward.

00:02:15.320 He's the executive producer of the show, but he's also a media analyst.

00:02:19.920 And he's been at The Blaze.

00:02:21.420 He's been at CNN.

00:02:22.680 He's done a lot of interesting things and has a great, great newsletter called Fourth Watch.

00:02:26.460 So he's got his own independent thoughts on media and how this was handled.

00:02:30.860 But I'll tell you, you know, Steve, overall, as I looked at that debate last night, my reaction was it was complete chaos and I learned nothing.

00:02:39.380 I learned nothing.

00:02:40.800 Yeah.

00:02:40.900 It was mildly entertaining, just like in the way a boxing match would be.

00:02:45.880 The dynamics of how Trump would keep punching and whether Biden would ever counterpunch as opposed to running to the corners of the ring.

00:02:52.600 But overall, it was kind of like you want to cover your eyes.

00:02:56.480 Yeah, I would have loved like a really exciting, like, you know, prime to two boxers in their prime kind of boxing match.

00:03:04.160 But this was like two people that just put on a gloves for the first time and have never really, you know, it was so amateurish and just all over the place.

00:03:12.340 And they're just flailing arms. 1.00

00:03:14.500 Yeah, it was it was a it was a shit show. 1.00

00:03:17.420 To me, it was more like Trump. 0.99

00:03:18.800 He was like this big, scary sort of, you know, television show monster like and Biden was the old man kind of, you know, a little frail in the corner, like it's mean, which I don't know.

00:03:35.660 I think Trump supporters will love how aggressive he was and want to see him give it to Biden, who's, you know, compared him to a Nazi.

00:03:42.680 They have no empathy or sympathy for Biden.

00:03:44.860 And Biden was probably thinking about those suburban moms and seniors and just fine with Trump appearing like a bully.

00:03:55.480 And really, the bullying was pretty much just in the interrupting.

00:03:59.400 That's really that's really what he was doing.

00:04:01.120 Right. He was just he wouldn't let Biden get a sentence out uninterrupted.

00:04:05.040 And therefore, Biden really doesn't have a clean soundbite all night.

00:04:08.580 Yeah. Yeah.

00:04:09.100 Yeah. And that's actually, I guess, a good dovetail way of talking about the moderation, because I'm curious, you know, you have co-moderated debates with Chris Wallace.

00:04:17.440 And I think Chris Wallace is an excellent journalist.

00:04:20.500 I'm not I guess I'm curious what your take is on him.

00:04:23.600 And, you know, was it a mess, you know, because of him or in spite of him?

00:04:28.300 You know, was there anything that anyone could have done to sort of, you know, force people to adhere to the rules in this or was it just sort of a lost cause?

00:04:37.780 Well, I think Wallace did his best.

00:04:39.780 You know, he tried his hardest to keep control over the debate, but it didn't work.

00:04:43.960 And for me, as somebody who's moderated these debates, including with Trump, it was frustrating because I do believe there was a way of controlling them.

00:04:53.760 And what I would have done if it were possible, because to tell you the truth, I'm not sure whether it's the Commission on Presidential Debates that's controlling the optics of the night and the production or whether it's Chris's team.

00:05:05.260 But either way, you'd have to go in saying I'm going to be the moderator and this is how I want it, because I do I I am there to protect the audience.

00:05:13.860 And this is what I need to do it.

00:05:16.120 You need to keep the camera on me when the two people are fighting and they won't listen to me.

00:05:20.860 When I'm trying to regain control over this debate, I have the camera.

00:05:24.540 And if I tell you to cut their mics, cut their mics.

00:05:27.360 And let me tell you, that will have a magical effect of shutting people up once once they know the audience can't see them and can't hear them.

00:05:35.260 They will stop talking.

00:05:36.380 They will.

00:05:37.140 It's magic.

00:05:38.920 It's not a great moment for the moderator to have to treat them like toddlers in that way.

00:05:43.060 But your job is to protect the audience.

00:05:46.660 And, you know, that didn't really happen.

00:05:48.860 And it was a frustration for everyone there.

00:05:51.420 Right.

00:05:51.920 But having said all that, Steve, I actually don't really put this 100 percent on on Chris.

00:05:56.940 I really think Joe Biden missed a huge opportunity last night.

00:06:03.260 He should have handled it.

00:06:05.740 And instead, he kept looking at Wallace like his teacher, you know, to come in and save him like he's being mean.

00:06:11.900 He won't stop talking.

00:06:12.920 You know, it made Biden look small and he was sort of ceding the authority of the night to Trump and Wallace.

00:06:19.580 And I think Biden could have done a couple of things.

00:06:22.960 Number one, he could have turned to Trump early on and given away 30 seconds of his own time and said, look, I know you have a lot to say.

00:06:31.240 So do I.

00:06:32.220 We have about 100 million people tuning in for this debate tonight on one of the most important issues in their lives and one of the most important elections in their lives.

00:06:39.620 And I think they'd really appreciate it if you didn't interrupt me and I won't interrupt you.

00:06:45.320 Can we agree we're going to show the audience that respect?

00:06:48.160 Right.

00:06:48.300 Take the high road there.

00:06:49.120 Yeah.

00:06:49.320 Right.

00:06:49.600 So just see what Trump will say.

00:06:51.100 Right.

00:06:51.260 Like, don't get irritated.

00:06:52.940 Just sort of say, again, he could have stepped into the role of protecting the audience at home and they would have been grateful to him for that.

00:07:00.020 Both sides would have been grateful.

00:07:01.160 And then if I were Biden, every point after that, I would have been a little amused by Trump.

00:07:08.880 You know, like I would have sort of mocked him a little.

00:07:10.840 I would have been like, I can see it's hard for you to control your emotions.

00:07:14.880 Could you try?

00:07:16.520 I can see you.

00:07:17.800 Do you need a break?

00:07:18.620 You seem like you might need a break.

00:07:20.140 Yeah.

00:07:20.440 Right.

00:07:20.600 Like I would just start needling him as an as, you know, sort of what a lot of guys do to women. 0.99

00:07:25.260 Like you're a hysteric. 0.82

00:07:26.620 Like you can't control your emotions.

00:07:28.760 Like, yeah, calm down.

00:07:30.200 Right.

00:07:30.620 Simmer.

00:07:31.160 Yeah.

00:07:31.820 Yeah.

00:07:32.020 And I think it would have driven Trump nuts and it would have been an effective tool that would have made Biden look like the bigger man.

00:07:38.860 Right.

00:07:39.480 That's interesting because, yeah, no, instead, it seemed like he was coached to almost do a different sort of strategy where he kept breaking the fourth wall, almost ignoring Trump, ignoring Wallace and talking to you at home through the TV, you the viewer.

00:07:51.800 And it was, I mean, on one level, I guess there was some effectiveness to it, but it also, to your point, it never really took the high road and threw it back at Trump that way.

00:08:01.660 And you couldn't hear him.

00:08:03.380 You know, he couldn't do that.

00:08:05.380 You know, he couldn't do that because Trump just kept talking.

00:08:06.880 And Biden, I mean, Biden needed to just at one point early on, be quiet, let Trump finish his rant and then do one of the things I just said.

00:08:16.620 And by the way, I feel like people are missing one of the tactics I always use as a moderator and in interviewing people on camera, and it works really well.

00:08:24.040 I learned it when I was taking depositions.

00:08:25.780 If you just hold your hand up, you know, like the stop signal and, like, point it at the person you're talking to, man, you would not believe how well that works.

00:08:34.540 It's a really effective tool for shutting people up.

00:08:39.340 Talk to the hand.

00:08:40.160 Anyway, I don't know that any of this would have completely controlled the situation, but I think it would have improved it.

00:08:46.400 Well, that's I think you will see a different Biden next time out.

00:08:48.960 Yeah, I mean, you talk about about moderating and interviewing people, but but is there a certain playbook for moderating a Trump debate versus a, you know, quote, unquote, normal debate?

00:09:00.560 Because it does feel like he he escalates these things into into a whole another arena than than, you know, what is a typical what people are used to about a debate?

00:09:09.960 Mm hmm. Well, it's you have to walk a fine line because it's really for the two guys to fight over lies that are told or misrepresentations.

00:09:19.160 It's not for you. Remember, you don't want to have a Candy Crowley moment where you try as the moderator to step in and settle something.

00:09:26.980 And in her case, she was wrong. Right. About whether Obama called Benghazi a terrorist attack.

00:09:31.780 Right. And I like Candy Crowley, but that effectively ended her career that moment. 1.00

00:09:36.320 So you don't want that. But my general approach was always if they're challenging the basis of my question, if they're challenging the facts I've asserted, then I'm going to fight.

00:09:48.000 Right. I will protect my question and the integrity of my ask.

00:09:52.260 But beyond that, it's for the other two guys. Like they have to go after it.

00:09:55.800 So, you know, if if if if Biden saying Hunter didn't get all this money from Burisma and overseas, that's for Trump to have his facts on, not Chris Wallace, although I'm sure Chris did have them.

00:10:07.740 So I thought Chris did a fine job on that. He did cut off some of those discussions a little prematurely.

00:10:16.000 And the one that really jumped out at me was that one on Hunter Biden.

00:10:19.160 Like Trump was starting to sort of zero in and throw his jabs at Biden on Hunter.

00:10:25.480 And and Biden went to that moment about Bo. Right.

00:10:29.200 And, you know, whenever you bring up Bo Biden, you have nothing but sympathy for Biden.

00:10:34.380 Right. I mean, it's just a it's such a sad story.

00:10:37.260 But the truth is, Biden brings that up and not infrequently and and has already been accused of using that sad story too much on the campaign trail.

00:10:48.880 And I think that's one of the reasons Trump blew right by it.

00:10:52.180 He wasn't going to take the bait on that. And he just stayed laser like focused on Hunter.

00:10:56.600 But then Wallace shut the discussion down. So and Trump did try.

00:11:00.640 He tried to fight on that discussion. He wanted that to come out.

00:11:03.740 But, you know, at some point, the moderator has moved on and you got to move on, too.

00:11:09.100 Right. Yeah. And I will say I just as an aside that one at that moment, he brought up Bo Biden in the context of the, you know, Trump calling the military losers and suckers,

00:11:18.260 which was this anonymously sourced story in the Atlantic. He actually brought up another anonymously. 0.97

00:11:22.940 So I think we leave as a single anonymous source in Axios about this, like Trump saying we should nuke a hurricane, which, you know, Biden brought up again.

00:11:29.900 It's like these anonymously sourced stories, which we don't know how the truth of it.

00:11:33.640 They just become ingrained. And then Biden uses them as talking points during the debate.

00:11:37.880 It's you really kind of see the effect of the of the media's, you know, actions when it comes to anonymous sources here, which I don't I don't love.

00:11:46.800 Let me let me ask you this. I'm curious. One of the main talking points, I think, that came out of the post debate is will there be more debates?

00:11:55.580 I mean, that was actually floated by multiple CNN anchors and a lot of people on Twitter.

00:12:00.100 What do you think of that and that direction?

00:12:03.920 I just think that's that's the media running cover for Joe Biden.

00:12:08.340 Biden's ahead. He's ahead. He's ahead nationally and he's ahead in most of these swing state polls, though.

00:12:13.480 Anything could change. You know, Hillary Clinton was ahead, too.

00:12:17.220 And the media, they don't want they don't want game changers or potential game changers between now and Election Day.

00:12:23.500 They want Biden to win. That's really clear.

00:12:27.180 And so even just the discussion that it would somehow be unseemly to subject oneself to another debate with that man shows their bias.

00:12:35.340 If it's up to the audience to decide whether they think Trump's behavior was bad or a deal changer.

00:12:42.700 And, you know, the media last night was in full elite mode.

00:12:47.360 You know, the scoffing Donald Trump's behavior.

00:12:50.880 David Axelrod actually said he thought Trump ended his president or his presidency last night.

00:12:57.220 I mean, come on. Come on. Right. Like he he he was so bad.

00:13:00.940 His interruptions were so bad.

00:13:03.580 And he was such a bore, which people have never seen Donald Trump do before.

00:13:07.320 I mean, come on.

00:13:08.620 It was almost like they were in this competition to to one up each other on what could be the most extreme thing you can say after the debate, which, you know, was it was obviously a mess.

00:13:17.080 But at the same time, like, you know, yeah, come on.

00:13:19.340 Is anyone completely shocked by how all this went down?

00:13:22.800 Well, what did you think, Steve?

00:13:23.640 Because I was doing a little channel surfing last night and had the misfortune of skipping over to MSNBC.

00:13:30.760 And they it stuns me how they don't even make a pretense of putting a Republican or a conservative on to react.

00:13:37.940 Like when I was on Fox, we would have strong Republicans and we would have strong Democrats on to discuss what we had just seen.

00:13:45.200 Because in my experience, the Fox audience, while mostly right leaning, always wanted to know what the other side was thinking.

00:13:51.720 It wasn't good enough to have just Sean on Sean Hannity talking about how it was amazing.

00:13:57.060 He was awesome.

00:13:58.240 They wanted to know what are the Democrats going to say and what are the arguments against that?

00:14:03.780 MSNBC had Rachel Maddow, Joy Reid and Nicole Wallace, who is not a Republican.

00:14:10.220 They're trying to pan her off or pawn her off as a Republican because she used to work as a Republican. 1.00

00:14:15.820 And she she ran the Sarah Palin before she threw everyone under the under the bus. 1.00

00:14:20.380 Yeah.

00:14:21.080 Yeah.

00:14:21.280 So she ran the Sarah Palin nomination process and all that. 0.97

00:14:23.920 But she's she is television's Jennifer Rubin.

00:14:27.380 You know how The Washington Post keeps calling Jennifer Rubin a conservative columnist.

00:14:30.480 And there's not a person on earth who hates Trump or the Republicans more than Jennifer Rubin.

00:14:34.600 Right.

00:14:35.000 Well, Nicole Wallace might be next in line. 0.81

00:14:36.600 And I just thought, what a disservice to their audience to not even even take a little like just a little.

00:14:43.940 I don't know, meander over for a moment onto the Republican side of the aisle.

00:14:48.420 You know, and Nicole Wallace, I believe, has explicitly said she's voting for Joe Biden.

00:14:52.600 So I don't think we're really getting much, you know, GOP analysis from from Nicole Wallace there.

00:14:57.920 No, look, you go to CNN and they had Rick Santorum on.

00:15:01.460 And he was basically that.

00:15:03.960 Come on, Rick.

00:15:04.420 You can't defend that.

00:15:05.260 I mean, that was basically the way he was he he was approached after the debate.

00:15:08.920 And he he basically did not defend Donald Trump in that situation.

00:15:12.580 But no, it's another way of looking at it.

00:15:14.520 You know, it was a hot mess because you couldn't understand anything.

00:15:16.960 But I I will tell you, I think a lot of Trump supporters were like, yeah, he was aggressive.

00:15:21.140 He was giving it to the guy.

00:15:22.440 He kept punching. 0.63

00:15:23.260 Joe Biden couldn't punch back because he's weak.

00:15:25.500 I already said I think some some seniors, some women in the suburbs might not have seen it that way. 0.99

00:15:30.960 But it isn't a universal thought that Trump lost and did horribly because he refused to let Biden speak.

00:15:41.400 No. In fact, the CBS News flash poll after of Battleground tracker instant poll of debate watchers had it at 48 percent Joe Biden, 41 percent Donald Trump, 10 percent a tie, which is almost identical to what the actual national polls are.

00:15:54.660 It's like no one changed their minds at all so far.

00:15:58.960 The other thing is, I think I don't know what was in Trump's mind.

00:16:03.020 By the way, he definitely prepared.

00:16:04.560 You know how we talked about.

00:16:05.740 Right.

00:16:06.100 Is he going to be prepared?

00:16:07.600 100 percent.

00:16:08.100 He had his facts last night, which, frankly, is a change for Donald Trump.

00:16:11.640 Usually, you know, last time around, he winged a lot of it.

00:16:13.680 And you could tell this time he had his facts.

00:16:15.840 But if his approach was to try to make Biden look old and tired and himself younger and more spry, you know, and up for the fights that are coming to our country, whether it's covid or something else, he did well.

00:16:31.460 Right. You'd have to give him that point.

00:16:33.560 You can talk about whether you liked the style.

00:16:35.740 But I haven't heard a ton of Trump supporters saying he completely muffed it.

00:16:39.880 I've heard them express irritation that they couldn't hear, right, that they couldn't hear the substance.

00:16:46.460 They didn't necessarily come across like their three years difference in age.

00:16:50.000 I will say that, you know, 74 and 77.

00:16:52.140 It did seem like, yeah, Joe Biden was quite a bit older.

00:16:55.380 Well, Megan, I know we've got a lot more to talk about.

00:16:57.440 I want to I can't wait to hear you talk about your tweet that went viral last night.

00:17:01.200 The Antifa 25,000 retweets, 100,000 likes on that so far.

00:17:05.600 We'll get to all that.

00:17:06.500 But let's pay the bills.

00:17:09.880 All right, let's do it.

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00:19:30.060 Joining us now is Hugh Hewitt.

00:19:34.720 Hugh, I'm looking forward to getting your reaction to this because I was watching your Twitter feed last night and I thought you had an interesting take on it.

00:19:41.520 First of all, you were you were thinking Biden was going to play possum, that he was playing possum before this debate.

00:19:46.840 And we might see you put it.

00:19:48.120 I think you said we might see Fred Astaire come out last night, twinkle toes across the stage.

00:19:53.520 Is that what you think happened?

00:19:54.660 He had the energy that no one thought he would.

00:19:57.460 He absolutely went the 90 minutes.

00:19:59.160 He could have kept going for another 90 minutes.

00:20:01.380 And so the battle of low expectations was clearly won by Joe Biden.

00:20:05.900 And do you agree with that, Megan?

00:20:07.280 I think he performed far above what I think many of the president's supporters hoped he would not be able to do.

00:20:13.520 Definitely.

00:20:14.040 He seemed cogent.

00:20:15.520 He didn't have any senior moments.

00:20:17.260 And that in and of itself was a win for him.

00:20:20.240 Agree.

00:20:20.600 But what did you think, like overall, first of all, just not Trump, not Biden, but just rate the debate on a scale of one to 10, 10 being the greatest thing you've ever seen, one being a total disaster and awful.

00:20:31.880 What would you rate this debate?

00:20:33.880 Worst debate I've ever seen.

00:20:35.260 I've been watching them since 1976.

00:20:38.320 This this represented a low point.

00:20:40.940 But in some respects, it reflects where the country is.

00:20:43.820 The country is so deeply divided that old friends can't have civil conversation.

00:20:48.820 So I doubt we can expect political opponents for the highest job to do so. 0.99

00:20:53.420 But to call the president of the United States a clown and a fool and to call him a liar and a bigot and for the president of the United States to continually interrupt and for Chris Wallace to lose control. 0.98

00:21:02.900 You and I have both had the unenviable job of trying to keep Donald Trump in his lane at a at a debate. 1.00

00:21:09.320 I've got my Trump tattoos.

00:21:10.560 You have more of them than I do. But Chris last night, I think, would have been better served if he just laid back, clothed his arms and let them go at it.

00:21:19.860 Now, that's interesting. See, I think I think he should have taken control early on and sort of set the standard for how it was going to go and then and then maintain that.

00:21:28.500 Then you just sort of refer back to the initial.

00:21:30.200 But I was saying earlier that I really thought the burden was on Joe Biden.

00:21:33.780 And I don't think he has to go to the school teacher, Chris Wallace, to say, I mean, this guy wants to be president.

00:21:37.760 But so it's like you should be able to control your own back and forth with the other person.

00:21:43.600 I feel like most of us, had we been out there, would have found a way to make ourselves heard as opposed to just sitting there looking irritated and looking at, you know, sort of daddy Chris Wallace to solve it.

00:21:52.800 I agree with that. I think the worst moment for the vice president.

00:21:56.220 Well, there were two last night, Megan. He was asked, name a law enforcement agency.

00:22:00.280 The president said, name one. And Joe did not have one.

00:22:03.980 And that was a terrible moment. And Chris Wallace should have allowed the moment to go on.

00:22:08.580 As a television person, you will know that you don't step on your your moment.

00:22:13.600 Chris Wallace did. The other terrible moment for for the vice president.

00:22:17.880 And it's not going to go away is refusing to answer the most important question.

00:22:21.240 Will you pack the Supreme Court? You're a lawyer. You're a Jones Day alum.

00:22:24.760 You know that this is a fundamental question to the republic. If we expand the Supreme Court, there is no refuse in the law.

00:22:31.220 There is no refuge in the law. And no, Kamala Harris is done.

00:22:35.080 If if they expand the Supreme Court, the Supreme Court is done as a branch of government.

00:22:40.100 It's over. It will lose all of its credibility and power.

00:22:42.900 I thought that was a huge moment, too. Let's run the soundbite so people know what we're talking about.

00:22:47.120 This is the pack the court soundbite. All right.

00:22:49.200 I have one. I have one final question for you, Mr. Vice President.

00:22:52.860 If Senate Republicans we were talking originally about the Supreme Court here, if Senate Republicans go ahead and confirm Justice Barrett,

00:23:03.080 there has been talk about ending the filibuster or even packing the court, adding to the nine justices there.

00:23:10.560 You call this a distraction by the president. But in fact, it wasn't brought up by the president.

00:23:14.840 It was brought up by some of your Democratic colleagues in the Congress.

00:23:19.040 So my question to you, as you have refused in the past to talk about it, are you willing to tell the American people tonight whether or not you will support either ending the filibuster or packing the court?

00:23:30.400 Whatever position I take in that, that'll become the issue. The issue is the American people should speak.

00:23:35.640 You should go out and vote. You're in voting now. Vote and let your senators know how strongly you feel.

00:23:42.020 Vote now. Make sure you, in fact, let people know you're a senator.

00:23:48.200 I'm not going to answer the question. Why wouldn't you answer that question?

00:23:50.060 Because the question is, the question is, the question is, the radical left. 0.88

00:23:54.460 Will you shut up, man? Listen, who is on your list, Joe?

00:23:57.460 This is so right.

00:23:58.800 Wow.

00:23:59.460 I think that is the, now that I heard it that way, I had a cut differently from my radio show.

00:24:04.640 That's the best way I've heard it cut.

00:24:06.160 And it so succinctly summarizes why that is the Achilles heel of the vice president.

00:24:11.380 It might be the last act in The Gladiator where Commodius puts the knife into the Russell Crowe character and he bleeds out.

00:24:20.020 That's a terrible answer and it's a terrible moment for the country.

00:24:23.260 Well, I thought the defense was really interesting.

00:24:24.880 I'm not going to answer it because my position will become the issue.

00:24:28.600 Well, right. Duh.

00:24:30.740 That's the whole point of wanting to know what your position is.

00:24:33.300 This is not some small thing like, you know, do you prefer this judge or that judge if you make it as president?

00:24:39.060 It's are you going to basically get rid of the Supreme Court as a meaningful legal entity in our system?

00:24:45.320 That's really what the question is.

00:24:46.420 As a professional question, Megan, would you have stayed on that question if you were Chris?

00:24:49.800 Would you have demanded an answer?

00:24:51.300 Would you have pushed?

00:24:51.880 Oh, 100%.

00:24:52.660 When you smell blood in the water, you have to move in for the kill.

00:24:55.340 That's how, sadly, that's how it works.

00:24:57.380 But that's what makes great television.

00:24:58.860 I mean, that's part of debate moderating and part of all of this is to remember that it's broadcast television.

00:25:04.440 It's broadcast journalism.

00:25:05.760 It's not just journalism.

00:25:07.260 Journalism does mean getting an answer.

00:25:08.700 But broadcast, to your point earlier, means knowing when you have a hot moment and how to exploit it and either let it play out or at least pour enough fuel on the fire that it keeps burning.

00:25:18.860 We should send it to every journalism school in the country because apparently people have to go to that now instead of law school.

00:25:24.820 But you have to let the moment play out.

00:25:27.460 And this is Kamala Harris dodged it. 1.00

00:25:29.840 She was on with Jake Tapper afterwards.

00:25:31.660 She was on with John Dickerson afterwards.

00:25:33.440 She gave the exact – it was like a replicate.

00:25:35.340 It was like a cloning of the answer.

00:25:37.840 It will not fly.

00:25:39.240 America understands, I think, how important this is.

00:25:41.860 Now, the shut up – Megan, what did you think of that?

00:25:46.960 I really thought he should have just – he should have been mocking Donald Trump instead of insulting him. 0.94

00:25:52.240 He should have been saying something like, you should try to control yourself.

00:25:57.020 You seem upset.

00:25:58.620 You seem angry.

00:25:59.520 Do you want to take a minute?

00:26:01.780 That's how I would have done it because –

00:26:03.280 Oh, if he had said – if he had said that, it would have been 86 callers Joe Biden instead of half because –

00:26:10.280 Right.

00:26:10.900 That – do you need a moment?

00:26:13.020 Oh, gosh.

00:26:13.760 I hope that –

00:26:14.720 That's what he should have done.

00:26:15.780 I thought Votip should get that.

00:26:16.840 He should have mocked him.

00:26:18.260 You know, like I remember even as a lawyer, you know, this, Hugh, I used to take these depositions and I was this young gal, you know, 24, 25 years old.

00:26:25.460 And I'd be up against opposing counsel, stronger, you know, big guys, men who'd gone to Harvard and I only went to Albany Law School and they would just be crushing me with all these angry, aggressive accusations and threats to call the judge.

00:26:39.440 And I used to try to fight and get – match their aggression and then later in my career I realized, you know, it's more effective to just stay the calm one and make fun of them.

00:26:49.300 It works –

00:26:49.820 That's in the Psalms, a soft word turns away wrath.

00:26:52.580 They both escalated last night.

00:26:54.360 And Donald Trump escalated – I think his theory was if you're going to take Vienna, take Vienna.

00:26:59.500 He came in intending this to happen.

00:27:01.960 We're talking about what he intended us to talk about.

00:27:05.080 And so he won in that term.

00:27:06.540 It's also a three-act play, right?

00:27:08.020 Wait, Trump intended that or Biden?

00:27:11.580 Trump intended to shatter every norm and have us all talk about the norms being shattered.

00:27:18.380 Well, what did you make of the reaction to the whole exchange?

00:27:21.600 Well, let's play it so people know, but there was another big exchange of the night involving Antifa and how Biden sees that and whether he would condemn it and other – and also whether Trump would condemn white supremacy.

00:27:34.400 Let's listen.

00:27:34.760 You have repeatedly criticized the vice president for not specifically calling out Antifa and other left-wing extremist groups.

00:27:43.820 But are you willing tonight to condemn white supremacists and militia groups and to say that they need to stand down and not add to the violence in a number of these cities, as we saw in Kenosha and as we've seen in Portland?

00:27:59.320 Sure, I'm willing to do that.

00:28:00.120 Are you prepared to specifically –

00:28:00.880 Do it.

00:28:01.460 Go ahead, sir.

00:28:02.320 I would say almost everything I see is from the left-wing, not from the right-wing.

00:28:06.640 So what are you saying?

00:28:08.420 I'm willing to do anything.

00:28:09.860 I want to see peace.

00:28:10.620 Well, then do it, sir.

00:28:11.360 Say it.

00:28:11.880 Do it.

00:28:12.280 Say it.

00:28:13.420 Do you want to call him – what do you want to call him?

00:28:15.580 Give me a name.

00:28:16.160 Give me a name. 1.00

00:28:16.460 White supremacists and white supremacists. 0.99

00:28:17.400 Who would you like me to condemn? 1.00

00:28:18.380 White supremacists and white supremacists. 0.99

00:28:19.920 Proud boys, stand back and stand by. 0.99

00:28:23.060 But I'll tell you what.

00:28:24.140 I'll tell you what.

00:28:24.840 But somebody's got to do something about Antifa and the left, because this is not a right-wing problem.

00:28:30.300 This is a left-wing problem.

00:28:31.440 His own FBI director said –

00:28:32.080 This is a left-wing problem. 0.97

00:28:33.900 White supremacists.

00:28:35.520 Antifa's an idea, not an organization.

00:28:37.540 Oh, you got it.

00:28:38.220 Not militia.

00:28:39.000 That's what his –

00:28:39.720 It's an idea.

00:28:40.860 What a fail.

00:28:42.380 What a fail of Chris Wallace.

00:28:44.000 Chris Wallace entered into that debate as a participant.

00:28:47.080 He asked the question the president attempted to answer twice.

00:28:49.960 Now, I think the president should have said, how many times do I have to say white supremacy is bad?

00:28:55.040 How many times are people going to distort what I said at Charlottesville as I went on to say I'm not talking about white supremacists?

00:29:00.580 He ought to have leaned into that.

00:29:02.620 But, Megan, maybe I'm being too hard on Chris.

00:29:05.400 He was your colleague.

00:29:06.260 He wasn't mine.

00:29:07.040 I don't know him.

00:29:08.480 I think he entered into that debate as a participant, not as a moderator.

00:29:12.540 I think he was – you know, Chris is a super smart guy and a great moderator.

00:29:16.580 But I think he was just on his heels last night.

00:29:18.740 He wasn't expecting it to be as difficult to control as it was.

00:29:22.120 And I think in those moments, maybe you have – you falter a bit in showing – I don't know if I would call it bias.

00:29:29.740 But he was clearly really irritated with Trump.

00:29:32.180 And I think it showed in sort of who he tipped the hat to, who he gave the question to, what question he decided to move on from.

00:29:39.900 And you could feel that a little.

00:29:41.720 I think that's what's leading to people piling on him.

00:29:44.160 Oh, and I understand because he had to do it alone for 90 minutes.

00:29:49.680 I had colleagues when I was attacked by the president.

00:29:52.100 But when you're attacked by the president in front of 20 million people and you can keep your cool, you did it three times.

00:29:57.460 I did it four times.

00:29:59.320 Chris should have been able to do it.

00:30:01.260 And by the end, I hate that white supremacy question.

00:30:04.500 It's been asked and answered 100 times.

00:30:07.060 And today, Blue Bubble Media is out saying the president's in favor of white supremacy.

00:30:10.780 I know.

00:30:11.420 And he said – Trump said, sure.

00:30:13.460 He said, well, you condemn white supremacy.

00:30:15.100 And Trump said, sure.

00:30:16.360 And then I think where things went south for Trump in that answer was when they're like, do it.

00:30:22.000 Say it.

00:30:22.880 Do it.

00:30:23.840 And Trump's not – he doesn't respond well to being bullied or bossed around, right?

00:30:27.620 And I think that's why he got on his heels and didn't want to call out proud boys or get specific or do what they – he didn't want to be in a position of, you know, being their little puppet.

00:30:36.140 I'll do what you say because I think he accurately judged he would have been – he would have been – he would have looked weak on style.

00:30:43.140 But he should have condemned proud boys more clearly, right?

00:30:46.140 I mean, meandering off into stand by and stand back, that was not good.

00:30:52.560 Well, originally, I almost – I was getting up to move because I did radio before and after.

00:30:57.060 I hosted the Salem Network after and before.

00:30:58.940 So I was getting up when the president said, proud boy, stand down, and then I missed him say, stand by.

00:31:06.160 So if you read the transcript, it sounds like he's saying, get ready, which is horrible, right?

00:31:11.280 Yes.

00:31:11.960 If he's saying, stand down, get out of the way, stand by the side of the road, that's different.

00:31:17.700 But again, this is the literally seriously part.

00:31:20.200 The question had gone on too long.

00:31:22.740 And it wasn't stand down.

00:31:24.220 If I – it was stand back and stand by.

00:31:26.580 Stand back, that's it.

00:31:27.280 Stand back and stand by.

00:31:28.180 So even more charged.

00:31:30.780 But the other half of that equation is Joe Biden and Antifa.

00:31:35.220 And to me, it was unbelievable that he just said, you know, oh, it's not an organization, right?

00:31:41.320 It's an idea.

00:31:43.100 And he said even your own FBI director said that, Chris Wray.

00:31:46.340 Well, you know what?

00:31:47.020 Chris Wray came out right after that.

00:31:49.740 He said, look, it's not an organization.

00:31:51.560 It's a movement.

00:31:52.720 That's what Chris Wray said.

00:31:53.980 But then he immediately came out and said, it's not a fiction.

00:31:56.120 It is a real thing.

00:31:57.300 It engages in organized, tactical activity at the local and regional level.

00:32:02.860 He said its adherents have coalesced.

00:32:05.100 They've worked together in nodes as opposed to a structural hierarchy.

00:32:08.900 But he said this is an incredibly dangerous group.

00:32:11.500 So how Biden can just sort of take one little word that it's not an organization, it's not it's a movement, not an ideology and dismiss this group, which Trump is right, has been causing chaos in our cities was pretty stunning.

00:32:26.420 And he's been given a total pass for it because of the Proud Boys comment.

00:32:29.620 If there is a shy Trump voter, Megan, and I don't know.

00:32:34.020 Nobody knows because it would defy polling if it does exist.

00:32:37.180 Is it defied polling in the famous John Major upset in Great Britain?

00:32:41.020 If it exists, it will exist because of that comment, because they see in front of them and they are afraid to go places.

00:32:48.180 I know people in Washington, D.C. who will not go downtown, not because of Antifa, but because of fear of their safety and dining out.

00:32:55.840 They wish not to be harassed.

00:32:57.740 I am not a New Yorker, but I have talked to Greg Gutfeld, your old colleague.

00:33:01.460 New York is a different place today than it was four months ago.

00:33:04.240 And for the vice president to defy, to deny that Antifa is a real thing, is as bad as the president in any way encouraging Proud Boys.

00:33:13.660 You know, shame on both their houses.

00:33:15.820 Right, right.

00:33:16.980 The only problem is only one of those comments gets any air in the media whatsoever, because all along the media has not wanted to talk about Antifa and what it's actually doing.

00:33:27.080 The other sort of related issue was critical race theory.

00:33:30.520 And Trump's just issued this executive order getting rid of these mandatory critical race theory, quote, trainings at the federal level.

00:33:38.320 And, you know, the left doesn't like that because they think that it combats implicit bias or inherent bias.

00:33:44.740 And, you know, Trump handled it.

00:33:46.860 But a frustration for me as somebody who's also been critical of critical race theory, which actually, Hugh, actually tells you that you have to sit there.

00:33:56.040 You have to listen to any person of color, a black person, tell you, you know, how racist white people are and how it's affected them.

00:34:03.940 You're not allowed to interrupt. 0.57

00:34:05.120 And then you are supposed to, quote, sit quietly in your own racism.

00:34:09.560 In fact, I thought the president's answer was going very spectacularly well on why he canceled it.

00:34:16.940 And Chris Wallace interrupted him.

00:34:18.380 I objected to that.

00:34:19.740 Critical race theory, which has been around in Harvard Law School since I was in law school in the 80s, is a deeply destructive paradigm of understanding the law.

00:34:27.960 And it does make race all important. 0.74

00:34:31.140 And it does not count that the Hewitts got here in 1872 with nothing and no one to help them.

00:34:37.880 And it suggests that I am somehow complicit in whatever is wrong with the country.

00:34:42.740 Now, I am successful, but it's not because I inherited it.

00:34:46.680 You are successful, Megan, because you worked your entire life to get what you've got.

00:34:51.440 And I think the critical race theory that the president banned is a bit of the re-education.

00:34:57.620 Rod Dreher has a new book out on soft totalitarianism, which is doing very well.

00:35:03.360 And I think he recognizes what this critical race theory menace to candid conversation in a liberal society is.

00:35:11.500 And I wish that the president had been allowed to explain that.

00:35:15.280 Chris Wallace stopped it.

00:35:17.120 Yeah, I know.

00:35:17.680 He was sort of gearing up like, you know, it's horrible.

00:35:20.580 He sort of did his Trump big sway.

00:35:23.120 You know, it was horrible. 0.99

00:35:24.160 It's ridiculous. 0.97

00:35:25.200 But he would have been well served if he had had some examples at the ready. 0.94

00:35:28.440 So people understood what the heck we're talking about.

00:35:30.800 We're talking about the fact that he got rid of it.

00:35:33.340 So that's not really Trump's forte and never has been.

00:35:36.260 Question for you now.

00:35:37.520 Question for you now.

00:35:39.280 There's already talk in the media of that's it.

00:35:42.840 There's not going to be any more debates.

00:35:44.320 Like, why would Joe Biden do that?

00:35:46.320 Your thoughts on that?

00:35:47.080 Well, I joked this morning on Twitter and Steve Scully repeated it.

00:35:51.400 I think I spotted him in a wig and a mustache at Dulles trying to get to Brazil.

00:35:55.620 There's no way to moderate a town hall debate.

00:35:58.920 But there's no way neither of them doesn't show up or they'll lose the election.

00:36:02.620 They have to come.

00:36:03.940 And this is a three-act play.

00:36:05.940 And the first act was, you know, it was like the Red Wedding in Game of Thrones.

00:36:10.280 That wasn't the end of the theories, right?

00:36:12.400 That was the Red Wedding debate.

00:36:14.340 There will be new episodes.

00:36:15.580 They have to show up.

00:36:17.800 That was the Red Wedding debate.

00:36:20.240 That is the best summary I have heard anywhere, Hugh.

00:36:23.840 That's perfect.

00:36:25.380 OK, so it's going to happen.

00:36:26.840 And last question.

00:36:28.580 Did, you know, Trump's behind in the polls and he's behind.

00:36:32.160 I don't pay attention to the national polling because I don't really think it matters.

00:36:34.800 But the swing states, it's getting tighter, but he's still behind.

00:36:37.860 So did he do anything to change that one way or the other last night?

00:36:42.380 Yeah, I think he did.

00:36:43.740 I think he helped himself in Wisconsin.

00:36:45.100 I think he helped himself in Michigan.

00:36:46.660 And I think he helped himself in Pennsylvania.

00:36:49.060 Fracking was there.

00:36:50.360 Not many people heard it, but the people whose lives depend upon it was there.

00:36:53.900 The Green New Deal was there. 0.91

00:36:55.280 Joe was for it before he was against it, before he was for it, before he said, it's not mine.

00:36:59.060 And therefore, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan, the three key states, were all tuned in.

00:37:06.200 I'll give you one data point, Megan.

00:37:07.780 I haven't been able to follow up on it.

00:37:09.120 Telemundo did an online poll for Spanish speakers only.

00:37:12.480 And Donald Trump won two to one.

00:37:14.660 I can't believe that.

00:37:16.060 But there it was on my Twitter feed.

00:37:18.320 I saw it too.

00:37:18.920 I do not know how Latinos view this election.

00:37:21.600 I just don't know.

00:37:23.060 What about the women?

00:37:24.100 What about, you know, the suburban women, the seniors? 1.00

00:37:26.360 I think about my mother-in-law.

00:37:27.540 She's from Pennsylvania.

00:37:29.180 She's a moderate.

00:37:30.280 You know, she's voted both ways.

00:37:31.420 And like a lot of Pennsylvanians, right?

00:37:34.100 And she's 83.

00:37:36.740 And I think she's open-minded, but she doesn't like boorish behavior, right?

00:37:41.400 Like a lot of older people and women in particular.

00:37:44.480 So does it sway somebody like her over?

00:37:47.540 Or do they get swayed to Biden because they see Trump so aggressive?

00:37:51.280 It hurts the president with that group.

00:37:52.940 The fetching Mrs. Hewitt, with whom I've been married for 38 years, would not watch last night.

00:37:57.000 Not after five minutes.

00:37:57.860 She would not.

00:37:58.740 But conflict-adverse people hated that debate so much that I can't wait to see the ratings fall.

00:38:06.760 Because people do not watch professional wrestling unless they watch it a lot.

00:38:11.980 And that was professional wrestling.

00:38:13.800 Mm-hmm.

00:38:14.500 Right.

00:38:15.200 It's funny because I think you and I, having practiced law, we're pugilistic by nature.

00:38:19.440 So there is something enjoyable just about watching the dance.

00:38:22.580 Yes.

00:38:22.760 You know, the punching and the avoidance and what's the next move from a strategic perspective.

00:38:27.100 But you're right, if you don't like conflict, if you don't want to tell the cable guy he's screwed you over one too many times, you probably were like, and back to the real housewives.

00:38:35.560 Yeah, exactly.

00:38:37.660 That's just fun conflict.

00:38:39.620 Yes.

00:38:40.660 You know, life is hard, especially for people who are in COVID situations, who have kids at home who don't have computers, who can't go to school.

00:38:48.560 Life is hard.

00:38:49.360 They don't need two septuagenarians screaming at each other with a moderator who's throwing up their hands.

00:38:55.280 Right, right.

00:38:55.680 It turned into the, get off my lawn debate, which, you know, that doesn't serve anybody.

00:39:01.200 I'm going to steal that one.

00:39:02.560 You can have Red Wedding. 0.99

00:39:03.660 I'm going to go with get off my lawn debate.

00:39:05.700 Deal.

00:39:06.440 Great to talk to you.

00:39:07.900 Thank you, Megan.

00:39:08.480 Thank you for emailing in.

00:39:36.600 Colin said he enjoyed the first podcast and looked very forward to routinely listening.

00:39:40.520 It's good to have you back covering events.

00:39:43.220 You're a good man, Colin.

00:39:44.060 He also read your book, Settle for More.

00:39:45.780 And he has a question that ties to your book and your career.

00:39:48.280 He said, in your career, it seems like you have never been afraid to take risks and leave a good job for another opportunity.

00:39:53.420 Those risks combined with hard work have always seemed to pay off for you.

00:39:56.460 However, do you look back at your jump to NBC as a risk you wish you had not taken and stayed at Fox?

00:40:03.040 That's a good question.

00:40:04.160 And I get asked that a fair amount.

00:40:06.720 And the answer is no.

00:40:08.100 I do not look at that as a mistake or a risk I shouldn't have taken.

00:40:12.420 Clearly, NBC was not the place for me.

00:40:14.280 So it wasn't the best landing spot.

00:40:16.440 But leaving my job at Fox was the right move for me.

00:40:19.540 And it wasn't about Fox so much as it was about my life.

00:40:23.380 You know, you don't you don't know and you don't need to know the lifestyle of a cable news anchor who you like and watch.

00:40:30.860 But in my experience, it was awful.

00:40:33.820 It was just incredibly stressful.

00:40:37.020 And I think it would be better if my kids were older.

00:40:39.960 You know, like I talked to Tucker.

00:40:41.100 His kids are in college.

00:40:42.440 So the lifestyle is a lot better for him.

00:40:45.280 You know, Rachel Maddow.

00:40:46.840 She doesn't have kids.

00:40:47.700 That's helpful.

00:40:48.220 Martha McCallum.

00:40:48.900 Her kids are I think they're all in college now.

00:40:51.100 Her youngest might be a senior in high school, but they're older.

00:40:54.260 Mine, when I left the Kelly file, were seven, five and three.

00:40:58.600 I mean, they're babes.

00:41:00.720 And I was missing it.

00:41:03.800 I was missing the whole thing.

00:41:06.700 When I first had them, Thatcher was a newborn.

00:41:09.220 I went back to Fox after maternity leave when he was nine weeks old when we launched the Kelly file.

00:41:15.260 But that was OK because they were so little.

00:41:17.360 I had them during the day, and then I'd go off to work at night, you know, around three or four.

00:41:23.280 And I felt OK because I'd been with them.

00:41:26.600 But by the time I left the Kelly file, they were older and they were in school for most of the day.

00:41:33.520 So I never saw them.

00:41:35.180 I mean, Monday through Friday, I did not see my children.

00:41:39.000 And it was soul crushing.

00:41:40.680 And then, you know, while I was at work, it was all stress.

00:41:44.120 You know, yes, the Trump attacks, they were no fun.

00:41:47.360 The whole thing with Roger Ailes was very painful and changed a lot of my relationships at Fox.

00:41:54.280 You know, I still have my best friends are at Fox.

00:41:56.940 I mean, my closest friends in the world are still there.

00:41:58.820 So it's not all of Fox.

00:41:59.860 But certainly it did change some of my relationships there with people I really cared about and respected in ways they just they couldn't forgive.

00:42:08.740 You know, they just they didn't understand why I wouldn't back him.

00:42:12.800 But, you know, that's been well documented.

00:42:14.560 And, you know, you've seen the movie and all that stuff about why I why I couldn't support him.

00:42:20.240 Anyway, so I did leave and it was the right move for me because my life was utterly joyless.

00:42:25.520 It was totally joyless, even though I was making money and I had a position of power.

00:42:28.840 But I was totally unhappy and the NBC experience was not a good one.

00:42:35.320 So I think everybody knows it had some highlights and I met some lovely people, but it didn't work out.

00:42:41.960 And that could have been foreseen if I had just taken a harder look and thought about it more.

00:42:46.200 But now I'm good.

00:42:48.600 You know, I'm I'm out.

00:42:49.560 I'm free.

00:42:50.880 I'm free of NBC.

00:42:52.760 I'm free of a lifestyle that preceded NBC that I didn't enjoy one bit.

00:42:57.880 And this is a great way for me to reconnect with my audience.

00:43:02.260 And it feels authentic and it feels more personal.

00:43:05.420 And it doesn't require any agenda on my part.

00:43:08.000 You know, I'm just doing the news the way I think it ought to be done.

00:43:10.760 And I know what I love about it, Colin, is that people like you, you'll you'll like it and you'll stay tuned or you won't like it.

00:43:15.900 And you'll find somebody else.

00:43:16.880 But the relationship is more meaningful.

00:43:19.180 You know, if you find me and you stay with me, it's not just because I followed O'Reilly.

00:43:24.260 So I, you know, I'll build it.

00:43:25.880 It's going to take a while, you know, brick by brick.

00:43:28.940 But I feel really hopeful.

00:43:30.840 And and for what it's worth, my relationship with my family, you know, with my kids and my husband and for that matter, with my friends has never been stronger or or more joyful.

00:43:41.760 So I, I did land that football in the end.

00:43:45.440 And I think I'm the better for it.

00:43:47.380 So joining me now are Crystal Ball and Sagar and Jetty.

00:43:56.780 They host Rising.

00:43:59.020 I like it.

00:43:59.780 Rising on TheHillTV.com.

00:44:01.800 And it's a very fair and balanced kind of show.

00:44:03.620 I love getting the perspective of both of you.

00:44:05.340 You're you're left, Crystal and Sagar.

00:44:07.240 You're right, but not too far left, not too far right.

00:44:09.360 Like, I don't know.

00:44:10.560 Crystal sometimes comes comes at the left from farther left.

00:44:12.880 But you're so reasonable and you're you're I learn every time I listen to you, I learn.

00:44:18.280 OK, so let's start at the top.

00:44:19.820 One of the things I was thinking as I watched the debate last night was I guess it was co-sponsored by the Cleveland Clinic because it was in Cleveland.

00:44:26.900 And I was thinking, well, that well, that's just perfect.

00:44:28.880 Right.

00:44:29.280 Because I see I see several medical problems on this stage right now.

00:44:33.240 There's anxiety.

00:44:34.740 There's an assault taking place.

00:44:36.840 And it seems pretty clear to me that there may be Tourette's up on that stage.

00:44:42.400 Is there a doctor in the house?

00:44:44.140 But let me start with you guys.

00:44:45.160 Let me start with you, Crystal, and ask you the same question I asked Hugh Hewitt on a scale of one to ten.

00:44:51.260 One being the worst thing you've ever seen and ten being like amazing debate.

00:44:54.340 Nailed it all around.

00:44:55.520 What would you rate this one?

00:44:57.000 I mean, it was the worst debate in American presidential history, I think I'd have to say, in modern history.

00:45:02.620 I mean, we've only been doing this since the 60s.

00:45:04.540 But, listen, here's what enrages me is the fact that we have so many vital, important issues in the country right now.

00:45:14.680 From the pandemic to the massive economic fallout to unrest in cities.

00:45:19.940 I mean, we are truly a nation on the brink with people dying for a little bit of, like, mature leadership.

00:45:27.180 And the American people deserve to actually hear from both of these men about their visions for the country.

00:45:33.240 Trump was just obnoxious, hectoring every single answer, cutting Biden off.

00:45:40.440 It was just annoying.

00:45:41.260 It wasn't.

00:45:41.600 In 2016, like, he was funny at times.

00:45:44.220 He was charming at times.

00:45:45.560 He was witty at times.

00:45:46.600 This was just annoying and hectoring.

00:45:48.880 And then, look, Biden really struggles to be able to articulate a vision and be able to, you know, effectively communicate what he would be doing in a first term.

00:46:01.480 So, I thought it was just on the substance, there was nothing there.

00:46:05.860 And I can't imagine one single person learning something last night that made them change their minds.

00:46:11.940 Yeah.

00:46:12.220 I learned absolutely nothing.

00:46:13.860 Although, I will say, I'll give Trump one point on humor.

00:46:16.780 My kids laughed out loud when he made fun of the size of Joe Biden's mask.

00:46:20.960 That was kind of funny.

00:46:22.580 But you're right, Trump, last time around, he cracked a lot of jokes and seemed more relaxed.

00:46:28.620 And this time, he was on offense the whole night.

00:46:31.280 Punch, punch, punch, punch. 0.93

00:46:32.700 Sagar, what do you think?

00:46:33.660 Same question, one through ten.

00:46:35.320 Yeah, I mean, I definitely think it was also the worst presidential debate.

00:46:38.240 And just to think about Trump and that mask moment that you highlight, I think it's funny.

00:46:41.920 But it also highlights a real problem for me.

00:46:44.280 I mean, looking at this from a right perspective for Trump, which is he found himself on the wrong side of so many issues, on which, in my opinion, he was on the right side of in 2016.

00:46:54.160 I mean, if you look at it whenever it comes to health care, last time he said in 2016, he was like, everybody's going to have health care.

00:46:59.840 And then on this one, he was basically arguing in favor of striking down Obamacare at the Supreme Court.

00:47:05.200 There wasn't anything on trade.

00:47:07.180 I mean, if you look back, and I think about this a lot, which is style points aside, people were willing to say, I do not like Trump personally, but I'm willing to vote for him because he's going to stand up for me on China, on trade, on immigration, on political correctness.

00:47:22.840 These are all issues which the public, by and large, agrees with.

00:47:26.740 This time around, whenever it comes to mass and even reopening, and I know this is controversial on the right, a lot of people don't want to hear it, but the public is generally 75% in favor of more social distancing, even if it means economic pain, because they realize that Congress could actually alleviate their economic pain if they wanted to.

00:47:45.180 So, in several different instances, in a way, I said this on the show today, like Trump became a real Republican in terms of embracing a lot of the GOP kind of conventional orthodoxy, which was his strength, was running against it in 2016.

00:48:00.340 So, on the style points.

00:48:01.160 He became a real Republican just at the worst time?

00:48:03.760 Yeah, exactly.

00:48:04.600 I mean, he became a real Republican at a time, and he became a real Republican after destroying all the real Republicans in 2016.

00:48:11.260 Right, there's no one left in that camp.

00:48:12.320 The platform.

00:48:12.820 Well, so, was it a game changer at all in either one of your views?

00:48:19.800 I don't think so.

00:48:21.860 I mean, Frank Lundstedt, his, you know, focus groups, and he said for the first time ever, you actually had voters who were undecided who made up their minds after watching that just not to vote, like just to opt out of all of it altogether, which is really depressing.

00:48:36.760 I mean, we already have a population where something around 40% doesn't vote in the presidential election because they don't feel like they've been offered a real choice or any real reason to show up.

00:48:47.000 So, yeah, I think it just contributes to an additional sense of nihilism and apathy.

00:48:52.320 You know, one thing to pick up on Sagar's point there, in 2016, part of Trump's power was you had the Democrats running around being like, the economy's great, and we've had this amazing recovery, and everything's coming back, and we did a great job.

00:49:05.060 And he said, no, if this is a great economy, you have millions of Americans whose towns have been decimated, whose jobs have been shipped overseas, who are truly struggling.

00:49:15.800 Now, that is more true now than ever because of the pandemic, because of the shutdowns, because you've had a Congress and a White House that has failed to really provide an economic response that gets people through this rough time.

00:49:29.060 But now he's on the flip side of being the one that's like, the stock market's amazing, and everything's coming back, and everything's great and rosy.

00:49:37.020 So, he's on the completely opposite side of where all his power lied back in 2016.

00:49:42.580 Look, Biden didn't do a great job.

00:49:44.600 In some ways, Trump rescued him by cutting him off so much that he wasn't able to, like, fully get out his completely inarticulate points.

00:49:52.380 So, Trump kind of saved him.

00:49:53.960 But look, Biden's up in the polls.

00:49:55.520 He didn't need a game changer, and Trump did.

00:49:57.740 So, you'd have to say Biden comes out still in the same position, still on top, and ultimately, that's a win for him as he tries to just run out the clock.

00:50:06.060 Yeah, I mean, I generally agree there.

00:50:08.000 Yeah, no, I mean, I basically agree with Crystal, which is in terms of the game change.

00:50:11.340 If we think about who needed the game change moment, it's obviously Trump.

00:50:14.400 He either needed to try and win back suburban voters, especially suburban white female voters, which have been fleeing his campaign basically since 2017, and especially after 2018.

00:50:25.000 Or he needed to excite working-class voters who do not generally vote the way he was able to in 2016.

00:50:31.900 So, you didn't see any of that.

00:50:33.040 And that's really the issue for me.

00:50:35.100 And, you know, as somebody, I kind of want to see this realignment within the party, which is that I want to see a message that tries to excite more of those working-class voters.

00:50:42.940 There are so many millions of working-class voters.

00:50:44.700 But let me ask you this, Sagar.

00:50:45.460 Let me ask you this.

00:50:45.980 Yes, yes.

00:50:46.320 Working-class voters, all along, one of Trump's big appeals has been he's a fighter.

00:50:52.180 They like that, whether it's picking on a news person or picking on Joe Biden and not letting him get his answers out.

00:50:58.540 Does that appeal to those working-class voters who are like, yeah, get in there, keep busting up everything, bust up this debate, bust up big government? 0.79

00:51:05.820 You know, go for it.

00:51:07.080 See, it's not stylistic.

00:51:09.160 It's always been about fighting, but for what, to what end?

00:51:12.200 It's fighting against a political establishment bent upon wanting to sell their jobs out to China or institute political correctness or have a trade deal, you know, which is going to oppress them, which they can see with their very own eyes, ripped a factory out of their community.

00:51:26.800 So, it's fighting to a certain political end.

00:51:29.760 That's what it really is about.

00:51:30.960 So, I don't think we should read as much into the style.

00:51:33.700 And, of course, look, the style is important, but it's all about what was underneath.

00:51:39.100 I think a lot about that moment from 2016 where Trump brought this same level of energy and just ripped into Hillary about TPP and about her flipping her position, talking about NAFTA, the giant sucking sound.

00:51:51.520 I didn't hear any of that.

00:51:52.800 And if you brought that level of energy coupled with that message, that's the winning formula about how you could excite these voters.

00:51:59.920 Well, I mean, they went where Chris Wallace took them.

00:52:03.660 So, some of those subjects weren't teed up to give them the opening, but the whole mastery of a debate for a candidate is taking it where you want it to go.

00:52:11.500 Crystal, what do you think was Biden's best moment?

00:52:15.780 So, there isn't a lot to say about the substance of this debate, but I thought to the extent that Biden was able to be effective at all, he definitely was better at bringing the conversation to the place where voters actually are, and that is on the economy and on coronavirus.

00:52:34.400 He had a couple of moments where he did sort of straight to the camera, you know, what people in the suburbs are really worried about is coronavirus.

00:52:41.780 We have the suburbs clip, so let's listen to that, and then I'll get you to finish.

00:52:45.700 Crime, it is crazy what's going on, and he doesn't want to say law and order because he can't, because he'll lose his radical left supporters, and once he does that, it's over with.

00:52:55.460 But if he ever got to run this country, and they ran it the way he would want to run it, we would have, our suburbs would be gone.

00:53:03.240 By the way, our suburbs would be gone, and you would see problems like you've never seen.

00:53:07.800 He wouldn't know a suburb unless he took a wrong turn.

00:53:10.080 Oh, I know suburbs.

00:53:10.820 He would not.

00:53:11.620 I was raised in the suburbs.

00:53:14.840 This is not 1950.

00:53:16.640 All these dog whistles and races.

00:53:17.960 Well, I mean, basically, he just sort of intervened there to try to say, I'm a man of the people and you're not, Mr. Fifth Avenue.

00:53:23.320 Yeah, so there's a couple things in that moment as it continues on.

00:53:27.960 He really makes this direct appeal of like, no, actually what people are concerned about is being healthy and, you know, ultimately being able to send their kids to school and have a job and all of that.

00:53:37.440 But you also see there a sort of failed strategy from Trump, which is to paint Biden as a radical leftist.

00:53:44.020 This is a man who has a lot of things, but he's been in public life for decades, and no one believes that he's Bernie Sanders.

00:53:50.580 This lands with no one outside of the Trump base.

00:53:53.320 And this is not just me saying that.

00:53:54.900 That's what the polling shows.

00:53:56.620 This attack on him just doesn't land whatsoever.

00:53:59.820 He had a better moment, Trump, that I think, you know, Sager can speak to where he talked about how long he'd been there and how little he'd done.

00:54:06.980 That's a much more effective line of attack.

00:54:09.300 But this idea that he's like a puppet of AOC and Bernie Sanders, frankly, I wish that was the case, but that is certainly not the Joe Biden that we've seen for decades in Washington.

00:54:19.160 All right. Here's that moment of 47 years versus 47 months.

00:54:23.840 President Biden, you want to respond?

00:54:25.620 Yeah, I do want to respond.

00:54:27.040 Look, the tax code that made him put him in a position that he pays less tax than a schoolteacher makes on the money a schoolteacher makes is because of him.

00:54:39.140 He says he's smart because he can take advantage of the tax code and he does take advantage of the tax code.

00:54:44.980 That's why I'm going to eliminate the Trump tax cuts and we're going to we're going to eliminate those tax cuts and make sure that we invest in the people who, in fact, need the help.

00:54:54.440 People out there need help.

00:54:56.660 But why didn't you do it over the last 25 years?

00:54:59.240 Because you are president.

00:55:00.360 Why didn't you do it over the last 25 years?

00:55:00.820 Because you are president screwing things up.

00:55:03.260 You are a senator. 0.98

00:55:04.220 You're the worst president America has ever had. 0.76

00:55:07.140 Let me just tell you, Joe, I've done more in in 47 months. 0.65

00:55:11.840 I've done more than you've done in 47 years, Joe.

00:55:18.420 Oh, yeah.

00:55:19.160 And you know what?

00:55:19.900 That is of the original 2016 energy that took down Hillary.

00:55:24.040 That was it. 0.87

00:55:24.860 She's a member of the corrupt establishment. 1.00

00:55:27.620 I am the person who's coming in.

00:55:29.840 I'm going to shake things up here in Washington.

00:55:31.580 And that is where I agree with Crystal, which is that trying to paint Biden as a tool of the radical left.

00:55:37.340 I mean, it's very like an RNC strategy.

00:55:39.680 Hear that type of stuff about Mitt Romney.

00:55:41.540 You know, Mitt Romney probably would have run a very similar type of campaign this time around.

00:55:45.680 It should have been the same callback to Biden is not a tool of the radical left.

00:55:49.560 He's a tool of the of the globalist establishment of the same ones that we beat in 2016.

00:55:55.060 Then he could have pivoted more towards issues like on China and on trade.

00:55:59.120 And you saw I mean, look, Biden was outright lying whenever it came to several of the allegations against Hunter Biden.

00:56:04.700 And Trump, I thought, did a fairly effective job in some cases of at least pushing back against that and having some things which if reporters wanted to check them, I doubt they will.

00:56:14.540 There's actually quite a lot there.

00:56:16.820 So bringing up the corruption angle and the tool of the establishment, 47 years is a damning indictment because Americans, 14 percent of Americans right now say they like the path of America.

00:56:26.860 But, you know, if you look and you go back and you see what the underlying bubbling of discontent, it didn't end with Trump's presidency.

00:56:34.460 And instead of trying to paint a rosier picture, he could paint one of we're in a crisis.

00:56:38.740 We're going to get out of it.

00:56:39.920 But we're not going back to the 2012 years, which you all rejected in 2016.

00:56:44.500 Crystal, what do you think about that moment with Hunter where Biden switched to to Beau Biden, you know, that his his rising star son who died, you know, two years ago or a couple of years ago.

00:56:58.500 And and, you know, Trump stayed laser focused on Hunter and really went after him.

00:57:02.540 And then Trump and then Biden switched again into what I think was an attempt to be more sympathetic towards his son and talked about his his drug problem with cocaine.

00:57:11.900 You know, Biden was sort of over there defending his boys and trying to get empathy from the audience.

00:57:17.560 And Trump was basically saying, I'm not going to talk about Beau, but no, Hunter, it's not about his drug problem.

00:57:24.640 It's about his money problem and him exploiting your position to line his own pocket to the millions.

00:57:32.060 Well, let's first talk about the substance, which is that, look, what Hunter did, the money that he took overseas and with policeman, all of this.

00:57:40.000 Like Democrats are very uncomfortable talking about this and want to just be like, oh, we didn't do anything wrong.

00:57:44.400 Just because something is not illegal doesn't mean that it's OK.

00:57:48.340 And Biden's response was basically just to outright lie and say there was nothing to see here.

00:57:54.460 However, because Trump did go after Hunter on his drug use, I thought he had managed to make a person who is fundamentally sort of unsympathetic, Hunter Biden, into a sympathetic character.

00:58:07.720 You know, Biden rightfully got sort of outraged about the attack and said, look, a lot of people are struggling with addiction.

00:58:15.260 And again, this is a flip from what Trump did in 2016 when he spoke very compassionately about the opioid crisis that has ripped through our country and upended lives, you know, coast to coast.

00:58:25.280 You can scarcely meet a person who hasn't been impacted by this crisis.

00:58:28.860 Especially in Ohio.

00:58:29.720 What did that?

00:58:30.700 What's that?

00:58:31.680 Especially in Ohio.

00:58:33.420 A hundred percent.

00:58:34.020 Which Trump needs to win.

00:58:35.140 Some of the worst, you know, some of the hardest hit places in this country are key swing districts.

00:58:41.360 And it was a major part of his appeal last time around.

00:58:43.820 So I thought that was kind of a swing and a miss.

00:58:45.560 And look, the big moment that's going to get replayed over and over on cable news with some justification is when Trump sort of struggled to condemn white supremacists, which plays into the worst caricatures of him.

00:58:59.000 And his, frankly, is sort of hectoring and bullying personality also plays into the worst caricature of him at a time when it's a different moment than 2016.

00:59:08.780 People wanted a chaos.

00:59:09.980 Let me just ask you that, because he did say, he said, Wallace asked him, will you condemn white supremacy?

00:59:14.620 And he said, sure.

00:59:16.480 And then he said, do it.

00:59:18.540 And then it meandered to Proud Boys.

00:59:20.420 There was a hand, you know, there was a hand ring, there was a pause, and then ultimately says this bizarre, like, stand by and stand back.

00:59:28.100 It wasn't a great look for him.

00:59:29.780 And hearken back to Charlottesville and other things that were problematic for him.

00:59:33.800 But, you know, it's such a different moment from 2016.

00:59:36.560 People wanted someone to upend the apple cart.

00:59:38.740 Now they, the Sleepy Joe, like, the ability to just go back to sleep has never sounded more appealing when you have so much ambient chaos.

00:59:46.380 I wondered, like, there wasn't the clever one-liners or the clever nicknames, you know.

00:59:52.760 I just thought, I thought they, Trump did such a good job with Lil Marco.

00:59:58.500 I realize it was diminishing and it was disrespectful.

01:00:01.260 And he used to call Ted Cruz Lion Ted.

01:00:04.720 Low Energy Jeb.

01:00:06.080 I mean, look, we still remember them, you know, four years later, they come right to your mind.

01:00:10.120 And that, like, Low Energy Jeb just killed Jeb Bush.

01:00:12.800 He hasn't been able to land it with, you know, Sleepy Joe.

01:00:15.740 I don't know.

01:00:16.600 I don't think that's what most people think of.

01:00:18.880 Although the contrast in approach last night in style may have underscored it subliminally.

01:00:23.820 What do you think, Sagar?

01:00:24.940 Yeah, I mean, it goes back to what Crystal just said.

01:00:27.480 For a lot of people, Sleepy actually sounds decent right now.

01:00:29.860 And so leaning into Sleepy doesn't exactly seem, I mean, Lil Marco was, it seemed to be like, oh, here's this young senator, too big for his britches, wants to be president.

01:00:38.920 I'm a big businessman.

01:00:40.280 Lion Ted, I mean, it was, again, it was like, this man will say anything that wants to be president.

01:00:45.620 Low Energy Jeb was about the fact that this is a establishment Republican who's not actually going to fight for the wants and needs of the Republican base.

01:00:53.140 This time around, Sleepy Joe does not encapsulate it in the same way.

01:00:58.520 I mean, Crooked Hillary, again, I can't think of anything better to describe, like, so much of the political establishment that she represented, the type of politics, her many years around Washington.

01:01:09.920 That was a dagger to the heart of what the core argument against her was.

01:01:14.900 And in this particular case, this isn't the strategy that, again, they should be leaning into against Biden.

01:01:20.100 I think that they've misread the situation from the very beginning, and we say this all the time on our show, it's not a secret, which is that trying to lean into the rosy picture of America, especially right now at a time like this, and not instead leaning back onto the original way that you won the presidency by indicting the forces that are keeping so many Americans down and feeling as if they have no agency in the political process has just been a major strategic mistake.

01:01:47.580 So Sleepy, I think, from the beginning, didn't encapsulate, like, a core policy argument against Biden, and that there was something about that that has just gone astray for him recently.

01:01:59.220 So what do you guys think?

01:02:00.320 I mean, are we going to have additional debates?

01:02:02.540 I think 100% we are, and that was all nonsense, that, you know, why would he, why would Joe Biden go forward with another debate?

01:02:07.900 Because the American people want it.

01:02:09.640 I mean, that was one of the things Frank Lund's focus group was saying, was some of the people who were undecided were like, 0.95

01:02:13.780 I can't wait till the next debate, because I really do need something to help me make up my mind, because they couldn't hear a damn word last night. 0.78

01:02:20.980 People deserve so much better, and that was what really made me mad than what they got. 0.58

01:02:26.080 Well, I mean, if both men lose, and then one man is down seven points in the real clear politics average, then by default, you generally lost.

01:02:33.100 And so I think that's it. Like I said, if there's no game-change moment, if you're not able to actually convince large swaths of voters to come back to your side,

01:02:41.120 or to come out who generally don't vote and back you, then that's what this is all about.

01:02:45.320 It's not a style competition. This is about winning an election.

01:02:48.860 And I don't think that there was anything last night for Trump that is going to help him win the 2020 presidential election.

01:02:55.300 It always morphs into a bit of a style election.

01:02:57.360 All right, I'll take the final word by saying I think the big loser last night was us, the American people, the viewers, and I think the big winner was Kanye West.

01:03:07.760 Definitely agree there.

01:03:08.320 He was the real beneficiary of that hot mess of a debate we watched.

01:03:12.880 You guys, thank you so much for coming on.

01:03:14.760 Thank you, Megan.

01:03:15.440 Thanks, Megan. Great to be with you.

01:03:16.620 See you soon.

01:03:17.120 My thanks to all my guests today and a word of request to you.

01:03:25.400 Do me a favor and go subscribe to the show.

01:03:27.880 You know, we're new, so we want you to subscribe and you have to download it.

01:03:31.500 Don't just listen to it.

01:03:32.340 You got to click download, which is apparently more meaningful.

01:03:35.600 And most importantly, then you have to rate and review it.

01:03:37.760 So go ahead.

01:03:38.500 Just give it five stars.

01:03:39.440 I don't care if it's sincere.

01:03:40.360 Just do it for me.

01:03:41.720 And write out a review because I've actually, you know, I've been reading them.

01:03:45.380 And don't write anything nasty.

01:03:47.020 That's what Twitter's for.

01:03:47.800 You can go hit me over there. 0.86

01:03:49.180 Here, the review should be either vanilla or kind.

01:03:51.780 I don't request a lot.

01:03:53.860 But those are the things I would appreciate.

01:03:55.900 Subscribe, download, rate, and review.

01:03:59.060 Thank you.

01:03:59.500 Thank you for helping me out.

01:04:00.440 And listen, we're going to be back tomorrow.

01:04:02.240 We'll have another episode for you tomorrow.

01:04:03.780 And you're going to love it.

01:04:05.120 It's with Ben Shapiro.

01:04:06.760 And he's roaring.

01:04:07.960 He's rip-roaring and ready to go.

01:04:09.920 But I also asked him something really interesting.

01:04:12.820 And I think you're going to find his response fascinating.

01:04:16.460 Does all the abuse he gets, does all the abuse and the bullying he gets, you know, he gives

01:04:22.160 it out okay, but he gets it bad.

01:04:24.120 And his family gets harassed.

01:04:25.900 And the college campuses where they try to shout him off, does it bother him?

01:04:30.580 Does it get to him?

01:04:31.920 Does it ever make him reconsider what he's doing?

01:04:35.180 You'll hear the answer tomorrow.

01:04:36.480 The Megyn Kelly Show is a Devil May Care media production in collaboration with Red Seat Ventures.

The Megyn Kelly Show - September 30, 2020

The Debate Mess, with Hugh Hewitt, Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti ｜ Ep. 2

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