00:01:00.560Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.
00:01:12.260Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.
00:01:15.880Michael Jackson was once one of the biggest stars on the planet.
00:01:20.560Virtually everybody to this day knows who he was, whether they were alive when he was or not.
00:01:25.000If you're of a certain age, you hear a song of his, and it transports you back in time immediately, and likely with some foot tapping and some body jamming.
00:01:34.740It's just fun music that tends to be upbeat and great to listen to.
00:01:39.480It, once again, is at the top of the charts after the release of the hit, and I do mean hit movie, Michael, starring his own nephew, Jafar Jackson, as him.
00:01:52.280He worked for two years to learn the dance moves and to get the singing just right.
00:01:56.940And ultimately, his dad, Jermaine, who's an executive producer, cast him in the movie or at least approved of it.
00:02:04.920Maybe it was a nepotism, but it was a great choice because if you watch the movie, this young Jafar, who's I think 27 years old or so, nails it.
00:02:14.240I mean, my gosh, he's got Michael to a T.
00:06:48.020He was Michael Jackson's attorney for a time.
00:06:50.160And we both discussed how we have some strong concerns about whether a couple of these accusers are credible, the stories they're telling, whether they're credible, and in particular in that so-called documentary that was done called Leaving Neverland, whether the filmmaker did the audience a disservice by not raising the very clear credibility questions of the two witnesses who were the main players in that movie.
00:07:20.160The problem for this story and making up your mind is that everyone who has publicly accused Michael Jackson, everyone, save for the last four who just came out, the Casio family, like a month ago, because we just haven't really, no one's really looked into them.
00:07:36.440But everyone has serious credibility problems.
00:07:39.720And everyone, including those four Casios, has had their hand out for money, which makes it additionally complicated.
00:09:00.660I read a very compelling, fascinating deep dive on the long-forgotten moments
00:09:08.700of the Jackson investigations. The one in 1993, that was the one that first broke it open
00:09:14.220as a story, this Geordie Chandler. And then just about 10 plus years later,
00:09:20.980when Michael was criminally charged with sexually abusing a different boy. This is a little boy who
00:09:27.460had suffered from cancer. And that's the only case that ever actually got brought against him
00:09:32.500in the criminal arena. And he beat the charges. This piece, which is in Quillette,
00:09:38.700It's by a guy named Andrew Hamill, goes into great detail about how the investigations first began, how the search warrants were issued, what the searches performed as a result of the search warrants found in Michael Jackson's bedroom.
00:10:00.260And I'm sorry, but we're going to go through it.
00:15:57.620They all looked for money and settlements first.
00:16:00.280And so Evan Chandler finds out that, you know, his son is sleeping in the same bed with Michael Jackson, and he goes to civil lawyers.
00:16:08.980And they refer Geordie Chandler to child psychologists to determine whether Geordie Chandler admitted to his father in June of 1993 after a dental operation that Michael Jackson had touched him inappropriately and had performed sexual acts on him.
00:16:28.000That's what Geordie Chandler said to his father.
00:16:30.540And then Evan Chandler went to lawyers looking to hire the most aggressive ones he possibly could.
00:16:36.660Those lawyers referred Jordy Chandler, who was then 13, to child psychiatrists who interviewed him.
00:16:44.900And under California law at the time, they were mandatory reporters.
00:16:48.720They had to report, you know, credible accusations of child abuse to the authorities.
00:16:54.940So that started both a civil lawsuit and a criminal investigation of Michael Jackson.0.96
00:17:01.680That civil lawsuit was filed for $30 million with accusations that Michael Jackson fondled and masturbated and performed oral sex on Geordie Chandler.
00:17:17.060And the criminal investigation resulted in a search of Michael Jackson's body in December of 1993.
00:20:46.740They also performed a search of his home, his ranch in Neverland.
00:20:53.700Well, the ranch called Neverland, which was near Los Olivos, California in Santa Barbara County.
00:20:59.700He bought that ranch in 1988 and transformed it into an amusement park and invited children to it and also lived there.
00:21:09.140So the police also searched his master bedroom and his library at Neverland and also his condominium in Los Angeles.
00:21:18.020And one of the, I think, very, very strange pieces of evidence they found in 1993 during the search of Neverland were two books that are actually even now extremely famous among male pedophiles, adult male pedophiles.
00:21:38.220These books were published in the 1960s. One is called Boys Will Be Boys. The other is called
00:21:45.180The Boy, a photographic essay. And both books contain many pictures of naked young boys
00:21:53.960with their genitals exposed. These books were found in 1993 in a locked drawer of a file
00:22:02.160cabinet in Michael Jackson's master bedroom. One of the books was inscribed from a fan from Chicago
00:22:09.700in 1983. So a fan in 1983 thought that Michael Jackson would be interested in a book filled
00:22:17.900with pictures of nude boys with their genitals exposed. And Michael Jackson wrote an inscription0.95
00:22:23.500on the book saying roughly, look at the joyful, playful freedom of young men. This is what I
00:22:30.580never had, and this is what I want for my children. So we know Michael Jackson received these books
00:22:36.320either as gifts or one of them he may have purchased and had them in his master bedroom
00:22:41.320in a locked file drawer. And these books are important because they came up in a later
00:22:46.380criminal trial in 2005. Now, back in 1993, the negotiations for a settlement went on.
00:22:53.140But wait, wait, wait, before we leave the books, because to me, the books was, that was huge.
00:23:00.080When I was, I was reading this piece, that was just a huge moment. It was, I don't want to say
00:23:05.120a game set match, but it's getting very close. Um, no non pedophile has books in a locked drawer
00:23:14.740in their bedroom with naked pictures of little boys. There is zero legitimate purpose for having
00:23:22.720such a thing for clearly it's, he knew it was there. He has, he had written in one of them,
00:23:27.960celebrated it. And when I read who was behind the books, it was like, oh God, because I spent years
00:23:36.440on Fox News. And this is back in the day when O'Reilly was calling attention to this thing
00:23:41.660called NAMBLA, the North American Man-Boy Love Association. And as soon as you got to NAMBLA
00:23:49.400in your piece, my jaw dropped. That is a pedophile organization. They're trying to normalize0.97
00:23:55.900pedophilia. There's, you know, man, boy, love, that's not a thing. That's pedophilia. It's
00:24:01.260another word for pedophilia. And what you write in the piece, I'm just going to read your paragraph
00:24:05.800exactly. You write, these books were particularly popular with quote, boy lovers worldwide that
00:24:11.840you put in quotes, cause that's what they call themselves since they could be purchased legally
00:24:15.380in most Western countries. But the two men responsible for them were in fact pedophiles.
00:24:20.860George St. Martin was the pseudonym of Martin Swithenbank, a British photographer from a
00:24:27.440prestigious family who had relocated to the United States to study business administration
00:24:31.940at Harvard on a Fulbright scholarship from 1950 to 52.
00:25:06.380A New York teacher indicted for distributing pornographic images of children in 1980.
00:25:11.220The 1993 Neverland Hall also yielded a nude photograph of a boy and another photograph of a boy holding an umbrella and wearing only a bikini bottom, which was partially pulled down.
00:25:27.380I just, I cannot think of any possible reason a non-pedophile would have that material in his file, his locked file, in his bedroom, Andrew.
00:25:39.640I have a real difficult time getting past it. And so do I. And the interesting thing about
00:25:46.560these books is if you look at FBI statistics on pedophiles, the ones who've been convicted,
00:25:53.420and there's no doubt of their guilt, only 25% of them have explicit child pornography
00:25:59.660because they know that that's illegal and extremely dangerous and many avoid it.
00:26:05.820but an incredible amount have literally these two books in their collection because these books
00:26:13.520are legal they are considered to have artistic merit and so you can buy and sell them if you
00:26:20.500want to buy one now they cost over a thousand dollars and you can only get them in private
00:26:25.600auctions to pedophiles because you do have to kind of out yourself yeah they so this is not
00:26:32.540the kind of, you know, just, you can't find this book in your local library. And they probably
00:26:38.120wouldn't stock it because it contains extremely explicit photos of young boys with their legs0.98
00:26:44.020spread, exposing their prepubescent genitals. And although it's legal, it is clearly the thing,0.84
00:26:51.680the kind of thing that, you know, would be of interest to a very specific clientele.
00:26:56.220And Michael Jackson had these in his bedroom and inscribed one of the books himself.
00:27:02.300So knowing that they had those books, that the cops found those, and that they were in the possession of the prosecutors, I mean, just as lawyers, you and I both know, his legal team understood there was zero chance he could go to trial on that case.
00:27:17.220I mean, like, zero chance. And yet he did. Ten years later, when he got accused by the next child, he did go to trial on it.
00:27:28.020Like, I don't, that's kind of where like I, the whole thing confuses me, you know, because it's
00:27:33.660like a lawyer would be saying, Michael, you are toast. Like cop a plea, do something. They're
00:27:40.440going to introduce those books and the jury is going to convict you. And yet he wasn't convicted
00:27:47.020at that trial. I don't know if these books came in as evidence. It's possible they didn't for
00:27:52.700some reason, they may have been excluded as too unfairly prejudicial. Do we know?
00:32:10.600And honestly, if you look back on this story and you believe that Michael Jackson is a pedophile, was a pedophile, shame on that set of parents.
00:32:20.640because had they actually, if we're in the lane of this is true, he did it. Had they actually
00:32:27.600just dealt with the police, conducted a criminal case or pushed all their resources into a criminal
00:32:34.100case, not a money grab, who knows how many boys could have been saved in the future, but they
00:32:42.040didn't. They went civil. Michael actually didn't pay right away. He was like, no, I'm not paying
00:32:48.660this, he resisted. And that is one of the reasons why many of his supporters say he didn't react
00:32:55.220like a panicked person who was guilty. He reacted like, who are you grifters? No, I'm definitely
00:33:00.020not giving over a bunch of money. This is outrageous. And ultimately, though, he did
00:33:05.160settle for a reported $20 million, they couldn't make a criminal case because you tell me what
00:33:11.980happened after he did that payout. Sure. The payout occurred, the settlement occurred in January
00:33:17.800of 1994. It was negotiated hard by lawyers on both sides. And the ultimate amount, we don't
00:33:25.820know the exact ultimate amount, but we know that $15,300,000 was paid to Jordy Chandler in a trust
00:33:32.120account and about $1 to $2 million to his parents. And the terms of that settlement say Jordy
00:33:39.160Chandler can never say anything negative about Michael Jackson ever anywhere. And Michael Jackson
00:33:46.420cannot mention geordie chandler ever for any reason which is why the michael biopic that's
00:33:53.720currently being released had to be cut and after the settlement came now you know the santa barbara
00:33:59.540and los angeles district attorneys were investigating michael jackson still in 1994
00:34:05.420but geordie chandler indicated to them that he would not willingly testify against michael jackson
00:34:14.880They would have needed a subpoena, and you can only get that if the person's in the jurisdiction.
00:34:18.840I mean, the truth is that even a settlement or a nondisclosure agreement can be overridden by a demand in a criminal case, potentially, or by government officials that you testify, that kind of thing.
00:34:31.460Like, your nondisclosure obligation from a settlement agreement would be vitiated, and you would not have to give back the money.
00:34:36.820but that's a separate matter from whether they can actually get a subpoena on you to force you
00:34:42.320to appear. And generally you have to be within the jurisdiction and he wasn't. And he actually
00:34:46.440threatened to leave the country altogether if they wanted to try to wrangle him in by subpoena.
00:34:51.560And then as a prosecutor, you're like, okay, even if I were going to go do all that,
00:34:56.720I have this extremely reluctant witness. What am I going to get? I'm not going to get what I want.
00:35:01.540so they they decided not to pursue the criminal charges in 93 on the geordie chandler allegations
00:35:06.880that's true and actually in uh in 1990 uh geordie chandler did say in 2005 during the criminal trial
00:35:15.800i'll flee the country to avoid a subpoena in yeah sorry that's my four exactly he was he was still
00:35:22.580there and he could have been subpoenaed um but he indicated that he would not cooperate and you know
00:35:29.540Of course, the subpoena can overrule a civil settlement, but he strongly indicated, I'm not going to cooperate. I don't want any part of this.
00:35:37.900And so the prosecution would have had to call a reluctant witness, and they had no idea what he might say.
00:35:46.540And it's also important to understand that we don't really understand what Geordie Chandler's attitude toward Michael Jackson was at this time.
00:35:55.240When he originally told his father, Michael Jackson, abused me, he also said, Daddy, please don't hurt Michael.
00:36:03.420Don't go public with this, because that will be really bad for Michael.
00:36:07.960And I don't want anything bad to happen to him.
00:40:49.460Well, during that time, from 1994 to 2005, there was a sort of a concerted effort to try to repair Jackson's reputation. So in 1994, he married Lisa Marie Presley in, I think, the Dominican Republic.
00:41:07.460one second. Forgive me. Forgive me. Because I love to do it linearly. I think the audience gets it
00:41:11.060better. So right before Lisa Marie, and while this whole nightmare with Jordi was about to wrap up or
00:41:17.740in the process of going there, Michael's sister Latoya came out and stuck the knife in. And as
00:41:26.020far as I know, she's the only family member who's done this. But she stuck the knife in and twisted0.91
00:41:31.460it. And here is what she said. She was in Tel Aviv for a concert sought for. I must tell you
00:41:38.420that this is very difficult for me, that Michael is my brother. I love him a great deal, but I
00:41:47.000cannot and I will not be a silent collaborator of his crimes against small, innocent children.
00:41:54.940And if I remain silent, then I means that I feel the guilt and humiliation that these children
00:42:00.680a feeling and i think it's very wrong i have seen checks payable to the parents of these children
00:42:07.720and i don't know if these children were apparently brought the parents by michael or not but i have
00:42:14.680seen these checks and i've seen these checks through my mother she showed me these checks
00:42:19.160that michael had written to these children and it's for a great amount and i'm not speaking pennies
00:42:24.600the sums are very very large amount and this is my first time talking about it and i never
00:42:29.560want to speak about it i never want to say anything about it but i think it's sad because
00:42:33.640i am a victim myself and i know what it feels like and these kids are going to be scarred for
00:42:37.560the rest of their life and i don't want to see any more innocent small children being affected this
00:42:42.360way very damning but it didn't stand she wound up taking it back andrew yes that's true i think
00:42:53.400think that interview was given in 1993 and uh it was very damning it was reported worldwide
00:42:59.900and uh she also said in a book she published in 1991 uh she described that you know the the
00:43:08.340jackson family matriarch catherine was extremely displeased with michael's behavior when they were
00:43:13.220living in the same home in encino california and she called him you know an anti-gay slur
00:43:19.560and she showed LaToya these checks. Now, later, LaToya took it all back and she said that when
00:43:27.280she made these statements, she was under the influence of her abusive ex-husband, who actually
00:43:33.380was almost certainly abusing her at the time, and that none of what she said was true. At the time,
00:43:40.540she said, I can prove evidence, you know, I can provide evidence Michael Jackson abused kids for
00:43:45.560$500,000 to a tabloid. But, you know, they inquired and she didn't have any evidence of
00:43:52.160that. So she took it all back. But still, you know, it took a lot to repair her ties with
00:43:58.600her family after her coming out and saying that. And also one other question on the Jordi Chandler
00:44:03.420case before we move forward. The search warrant and the pictures of Michael's genitals and his
00:44:09.420body, they were looking for something in particular to see if it matched up with the
00:44:15.580description, I guess they got from Geordi. There appears to have been some sort of a birthmark
00:44:20.100on Michael Jackson's penis, like some sort of dark spot. I don't know if it was a birthmark0.99
00:44:26.660or it was the vitiligo, which makes your skin darker in some places and whiter in other places.
00:44:32.000And did Geordi Chandler accurately say that that existed? How did that whole
00:44:38.280matchup go do we know yeah that is still to this day extremely controversial as with almost
00:44:46.300everything in this case uh geordie chandler gave a description to police um about jackson's torso0.98
00:44:52.800and genitals and he claimed that underneath jackson's uh penis which is you know you could0.97
00:45:00.720only see this in an erect state there was a dark splotch possibly caused by you know uh you know0.98
00:45:08.160maybe vitiligo had affected other parts of the genitals and this was unaffected.
00:45:13.560And according to law enforcement officers, you know, when Jackson was photographed, he made a
00:45:19.480big stink about it. He was extremely upset. And he also had his own photographers there also
00:45:25.440taking pictures. These photographs have never been released. And that is why there's a debate
00:45:30.640until this day. Law enforcement officers say that, you know, they have seen the photographs
00:45:36.560and the photographs were consistent with what Geordie Chandler said. However, to be fair,
00:45:43.360Geordie Chandler also said that Michael Jackson had a circumcised penis, and at his autopsy in 2009,0.99
00:45:51.740the coroner said his penis appears uncircumcised. So we still do not have full clarity about whether0.97
00:45:59.340Geordie Chandler's descriptions were accurate, but law enforcement officers have said they were,
00:46:05.600and there's many people think that that was one reason that Jackson settled. Now,
00:46:13.680Jackson had his own photographs taken. He has never released those. He has never asked for
00:46:19.100the sealed photographs to be released during his lifetime. So unfortunately, we'll never know the
00:46:24.340truth, but law enforcement officers say it did match generally. Okay. So now we're back to
00:46:32.460Geordi and family go away. Now we're in this period from 94 to 2004 or 5 when he goes on trial.
00:46:40.340What's happening? What's happening is first, I mean, damage control. So there was the marriage
00:46:48.140to Lisa Marie Presley, which lasted two years from 1994 to 1996. It's pretty well documented
00:46:56.880that they didn't stay together very much at all.
00:47:00.960And I believe she had her own home for most of the marriage
00:51:35.020So after that marriage dissolved, Jackson also released an album in the late 90s in which he attacked the prosecutor of Santa Barbara County, Tom Sneddon, in a song that actually had anti-Semitic lyrics mentioning kikes and Jews, which...
00:52:02.280And the lyrics to this, yeah, the lyrics to the song go, kick me, kike me, sue me, jew me.0.96
00:52:12.820And he had to apologize for this to, you know, and he apologized in a groveling fashion.1.00
00:52:20.100But, you know, that was something that really stunned me.
00:52:24.440Well, he really got that push swept under the carpet because, I mean, I guess, you know,
00:52:29.900if you're going to choose your controversy you'd probably choose like i said something
00:52:34.380anti-semitic over i molested a bunch of little boys so i can see why the one drowned out the
00:52:39.180other but i was not even aware that he had done that um okay so he's got he's clearly bitter over
00:52:44.540his prosecutor yeah and then he went on to marry a woman called debbie roe who was a medical
00:52:51.400assistant to his own uh dermatologist and they were married for a couple years in the late 1990s
00:52:58.520And that marriage produced two children. So Paris Jackson and Prince Michael Jackson, the first. And of course, they're still around. And frankly, especially if you look at Paris Jackson, she looks like a Swedish bikini model.
00:53:17.340There's no way she is the biological child of Michael Jackson.0.88
00:53:19.920I don't think so at all. And I, you know, Debbie Rowe has, of course, everyone who had, you know, close associations with Michael Jackson has signed NDAs and has also agreed to never really go into detail truthfully.
00:53:35.920truthfully. So we'll never know exactly what happened in that marriage. But that marriage
00:53:39.840also collapsed after producing two children. And then in the early 2000s, like in 2000, 2001,
00:53:48.220Jackson was really, you know, in the doldrums career-wise. His latest album hadn't really hit
00:53:53.880very well. And, you know, Pepsi had canceled their contract with him. And he was getting more and
00:54:01.180were into debt. And so then he decided on a really huge gamble. He invited a British tabloid
00:54:08.960journalist to accompany him for eight months, just to make a documentary about his ordinary
00:54:14.460private life. And that documentary came out in 2002. And it was called Living with Michael
00:54:22.120Jackson with Martin Bashir. And the documentary, you can find it online, but it's hard to find it
00:54:29.040online lots of sources about michael jackson exist only in like you can only find this documentary
00:54:35.200in 10 minute long youtube clips from years ago so you know lawyers and fixers have definitely
00:54:41.720been trying to take care of this because the documentary is incredibly damning i mean it shows
00:54:48.880jackson at neverland ranch and he goes buying expensive things at the faberge store in las
00:54:54.640vegas uh he attempts to bottle feed his child prince michael jackson the first but that doesn't
00:55:00.340go well and he also this is we have that let me show that that's sat seven i love you here he is
00:55:08.460here's the bottle wait wait here's the bottle it's okay just get this off
01:21:10.460Oh, this is, yeah, they had to cut it out of the articles
01:21:14.080because the article was already too long.
01:21:16.320But in 2000, in 19, okay, the guys who make RuPaul's Drag Race, they're called Barbato and Bailey, and they're now very famous.
01:21:26.340They have a production company called World of Wonder Productions.
01:21:30.040Now, in the late 1990s and early 2000s, they were making gay-themed schlockumentary, sort of like tasteless, over-the-top movies about, you know, a gay drug kid murderer called Party Monster.
01:21:45.500And in 1996, World of Wonder Productions from RuPaul's Drag Race, they tried to option a book about Michael Jackson, which contained explicit descriptions of sex between Jackson and Geordie Chandler.
01:22:01.960This book is called Michael Jackson Was My Lover, The Secret Diary of Geordie Chandler.
01:22:09.180And the book was, it had private information from the Chandlers, like bank receipts and medical records, etc.
01:22:18.000And so World of Wonder Productions, the RuPaul's Drag Race people, wanted to make it into a documentary about the loving romance between Michael Jackson and Geordie Chandler.
01:22:29.060and in 2006 when jackson was yeah when jackson was broke they finally did get the rights to the
01:22:36.320book they wrote four screenplays for this movie the movie was going to be called michael jackson
01:22:41.220was my lover there's a 2006 article in british gq about this movie that was about to come out
01:22:48.540they had raised four million dollars for a pro pedophile movie about the erotic romance
01:22:54.840between Michael Jackson and Jordi Chandler.
01:22:58.300This article is extremely hard to find.
01:23:01.680I had to, you know, you have to really work hard to find it.
01:23:04.200But I found it, and it's up on my YouTube channel now.
01:23:10.000And so they were about to release in 2007.
01:23:13.360And even Barbato and Bailey, the guys behind Royal to Wonder Productions,
01:23:18.420they said, this shatters all expectations of what, you know, anybody can make.
01:23:24.180This is completely outrageous. And that's why we had to go to Europe to get funding, because in America, the eek factor about a positive portrayal of pedophilia is so high.
01:23:36.540So we had to go to Europe and they said they had raised four million dollars to make this movie.
01:23:42.560Of course, it never came out, but it was about to.
01:23:46.900A movie that portrayed Geordie Chandler and Michael Jackson as a sexual erotic couple who were deeply in love with each other without any hint of adverse judgment.0.63
01:23:59.540Oh, that is sick. That is unbelievable.0.96
01:24:02.860So that so RuPaul didn't make the movie, but he owned the company that was going to make the movie.
01:24:07.420No, this is the company is owned by two guys in Hollywood. You know, they make a lot of LGBTQ gay themed content, Barbato and Bailey, and they own the company World of Wonder Productions. And that company now makes RuPaul's Drag Race.
01:24:26.900If you go to the company's website, it says we're bringing the underground into the mainstream with uniqueness and extravagance.
01:27:33.320And even after the 2005 trial, they said there was absolutely nothing going on.
01:27:39.340And Robson, especially, was in contact with Michael Jackson and was trying to sort of like work angles to build his showbiz career with Michael Jackson's help after 2005.
01:27:53.040And he claims that he changed his view of Michael Jackson after he became a father.
01:28:00.620That's what James Safechuck also says after he became a father, which, you know, that is sometimes a factor in cases like this.
01:28:08.620But certainly, and they both sued Michael Jackson's estate and his companies in 2013 and 2014.
01:28:17.940And they had to sue the estate and the companies because Michael Jackson was dead and the alleged abuse was long past the statute of limitations.
01:28:24.100So the theory of their lawsuit was that Michael Jackson's companies had been negligent in failing to prevent Michael Jackson from abusing them.
01:28:35.160And because the companies still exist and the estate still exists, that was the theory of the lawsuit.
01:28:41.720And the lawsuits were actually both dismissed.
01:28:44.080You know, I believe that Wade Robson initially claimed something at $1.5 billion from Michael Jackson's estate and companies in his lawsuit because he claimed that the abuse had made him unable to launch his show business career, which otherwise would have been extremely successful.
01:29:02.960So the lawsuits are a real stretch, and they are a money grab, and they were eventually dismissed.
01:29:10.820now california has updated its laws and changed the statute of limitations so robson and safe
01:29:17.120chuck's lawsuits have been revived and may now go to trial and so then you know they told their
01:29:22.980story in 2019 in the you know documentary or the interview series uh and the thing is uh and the
01:29:32.060you know it's not a documentary because it doesn't even attempt to provide any sort of balance uh in
01:29:38.140that part, in that documentary. They're not cross-questioned. They don't go into the timeline.
01:29:44.320They don't go into all the statements that they made supporting Michael Jackson over the years.
01:29:49.660But, you know, when I watched it at the end of the documentary, I thought,
01:29:54.160you know, these guys are, you know, they are flawed and they have questionable motives.
01:30:01.720I'm not sure if I can completely trust them, but the pattern that they described was consistent
01:30:09.540with the statements of many other accusers, and the details were consistent.
01:30:16.820But all those had been public prior to 2013 and 2014, or 15, when they filed their lawsuits.
01:30:23.560So they absolutely could, like the Jesus juice, you could study that.
01:30:28.720You just go back and read Geordie Chandler's account, read the, I always forget the second
01:30:33.700boy, Gavin's, read his account, you know, read the earlier accounts that were out there
01:30:39.140and you could come up with a credible story.
01:30:41.320I'm not saying it didn't happen to them.
01:41:59.160the pedophile turns his attentions to the child.
01:42:01.540Spending time on things adults and children can do together without arousing suspicion,
01:42:06.940such as visiting an amusement park or a sporting event, playing games with them,
01:42:13.320giving them gifts, and smothering them with attention and praise.
01:42:16.420I mean, it's just when you think about the Neverland Ranch through this lens,
01:42:20.080it feels plain as the nose on your face.
01:42:23.580Preferential pedophiles are often noted to be very good with children,
01:42:27.920able to talk to them easily and understand their worldview,
01:42:30.200perhaps even better than their parents. Their homes will often feature interests or items of
01:42:35.280interest to children, such as game consoles, toys, puppets, or figurines. What did we hear in the
01:42:40.580movie, Michael? You know, we talked, saw his room with all the stuffed animals and brings the
01:42:45.220Twister game home. And we've heard from Mark Garagos that he had a two story arcade at the
01:42:51.660Neverland Ranch. That was like, you know, something out of the eighties where, you know, we all used
01:42:56.520to go and hang out and play Space Invaders. The kids loved it, not to mention the Ferris wheel
01:43:03.280and the rides on his front lawn and the trains and so on. So game consoles, toys, puppets,
01:43:09.860figurines, pedophiles, writes Lanning, the author of that study, often refer to children using words
01:43:15.820like clean, pure, innocent, or impish. The homes of some pedophiles, writes Lanning,
01:43:21.460have been described as shrines to children or as miniature amusement parks. After the pedophile
01:43:29.280has created a situation in which he and the target child can spend time alone, he must convince the
01:43:34.220child to keep secrets. To this end, the pedophile often encourages the child to engage in naughty
01:43:39.520behavior such as smoking, drinking, cursing, or viewing pornography. My God. This creates a bond
01:43:47.300of shame and secrecy. Some pedophiles resort to outright threats or violence, but that is rarely
01:43:53.080the case with those who follow a seduction model. I mean, Andrew, this is like, I don't,
01:44:03.340it's like 10, we're 10 for 10 here on the matchups. And that's, you know, it's that the
01:44:10.420author of that, that I relied on among others is Kenneth Lanning, who was a child sexual abuse
01:44:16.900specialist for the FBI for decades and, you know, participated in thousands of cases and interviewed
01:44:22.580thousands of pedophiles. And the behavior pattern just fits so closely. You know, Neverland was an
01:44:29.440amusement park. If you look at the faxes that Michael Jackson sent to Wade Robson, it's love
01:44:34.500bombing. You know, Michael Jackson spent, you know, five or six hours on the telephone to young boys
01:44:41.480just talking about how wonderful his ranch was and everyone he met on the tour and the great
01:44:47.140things they were going to do together. And Michael Jackson, even, you know, he refers to you share
01:44:53.740your bed with somebody. It's the cleanest, purest, sweet, innocent thing to do. Because pedophiles,
01:45:00.080they don't think that what they're doing is wrong. They believe that they are showing love
01:45:06.960to another human being and helping a young boy blossom and they're providing him with or her
01:45:15.160you know with attention and advice and material assistance and occasionally they have a little
01:45:21.740play doctor session which both of them enjoy that is that the and as Lanning says the first
01:45:30.920time they're accused, pedophiles always, always deny. They say, of course not. I would never do
01:45:37.600something like that. And then only when they're confronted with the evidence, you know, with the
01:45:42.340hard drive full of pictures or, you know, surveillance photos, then they say, okay, well,
01:45:48.580maybe we did that. But, you know, I understand this kid, this kid comes from a broken home.
01:45:54.060He had nothing going for him. His parents were abusive and neglectful. And I provided him with
01:46:00.160love and attention and gifts. And that's supposed to be wrong. That's supposed to be immoral.
01:46:07.600Who else is going to take care of this little kid? So to clarify, in the mind of a pedophile0.80
01:46:12.980like this, this preferential pedophile, because I guess there's another type that's like,0.93
01:46:18.060I don't know, whatever. But for purposes of our discussion, that's what we think Michael might
01:46:21.240have been. That person genuinely doesn't think he's doing anything wrong. He recognizes society
01:46:27.940he has a judgment on it. But in his mind, he genuinely is like, this is okay. He's not like,
01:46:35.200this is so wrong, but I'm going to do it anyway. Yeah, that's the pattern. It's also the pattern
01:46:41.000in that weird book I was talking about that almost got made into a movie. The book about
01:46:45.540Michael Jackson containing this explicit description of sex with Jordi Chandler was
01:46:49.700positive toward that relationship. And when you ask pedophiles, the smarter, many of them are0.69
01:46:56.300very intelligent and very social and educated and they'll say you know look at ancient greece
01:47:01.660it was always accepted then look at oscar wilde so they have historical parallels to it and they
01:47:09.340believe that it's just some people have a natural preference for members of the opposite sex or
01:47:15.280members of their own sex and some people have a natural preference for children and some children
01:47:20.880And this is the sinister thing. As I pointed out, that movie in 2007 that almost got made from people behind RuPaul's Drag Race, that movie was going to portray Geordi Chandler as the initiator of this sexual relationship with Michael Jackson.
01:47:39.160that was going to portray him as wanting to have sex with Michael Jackson as being a young gay boy
01:47:46.040who was absolutely floored by his idol and now had the chance to become intimate and erotic0.99
01:47:53.040with his idol and took it. So he's the one who seduced Michael Jackson. That was going to be
01:47:59.640the theme of the movie, as far as we know, according to the reports. And that's what
01:48:05.000pedophiles also say. A big question for a lot of us, you know, covering the news these days,
01:48:11.700do we have any idea how widespread this is? Do we have any idea like, you know, they say,
01:48:16.820who knows if this is true, but they say like one in every four person is a sociopath.
01:48:20.600Do we have any idea like how widespread pedophilia is? Or it's just, there's just no way of knowing
01:48:25.720because the vast majority of them understand this needs to remain underground or they will
01:48:31.420lose their freedom and possibly worse. Sure. And I mean, the prevalence, it's very low. It's
01:48:37.600probably well under 1%. Thank goodness. And the one thing that, you know, if Kenneth Lanning,
01:48:43.640the FBI guy and other researchers were here right now, what they would say is if you're thinking of
01:48:49.600pedophiles as a weird, nasty guy at the park in a dirty overcoat or something like that,
01:48:55.460that's completely wrong. The people who are convicted of child molestation, first of all,0.93
01:48:59.780Half of them are married. Only a quarter of them have any kind of hardcore child pornography.
01:49:05.440And the vast majority are in positions of authority and respect where they can have
01:49:11.020contact with children, like in churches, schools, and youth groups. And so don't look for pedophiles
01:49:17.360at the park or in a dark alley. Look for them as being like weird, older men who have a very
01:49:26.420unusual interest in children who get along with them really well and who show them a lot more
01:49:32.860attention than most males do and who are in a position to get access to children in like a
01:49:39.640school or a church or a Boy Scout group. Those are the people who are most likely to be pedophiles.
01:49:46.500So at the end of the three months and the article, and I know these things go through so many drafts
01:49:52.280so much editing so you are you've become deeply familiar with this subject matter at this point
01:49:57.320what's your what's your judgment what's your takeaway on michael jackson i think michael
01:50:03.400jackson was a pedophile which doesn't necessarily mean he was a child molester but i think that you
01:50:09.160know looking at the forest and not the trees so the trees are all the individual accusers all the0.92
01:50:16.600the rumors, speculation, gossip, and all of that. But when you look at the forest, there is a
01:50:22.160consistent pattern of him seeking out inappropriate contact with young boys and engaging in clear
01:50:29.700grooming behavior with young boys. And there are numerous accusations of him moving on. It's,
01:50:37.080you know, and also pedophiles don't just randomly go after every child they meet. And Michael
01:50:43.500Jackson loved children, and he also, you know, treated young girls very well and took them to
01:50:49.380Neverland and, you know, formed friendships with them too. He loved children, and he was in many
01:50:55.260ways an extremely decent, kind person and a humanitarian. But when he saw a certain kind
01:51:02.920of beautiful young boy that he was deeply attracted to, that's when he went into manipulative
01:51:10.060grooming mode. And after, you know, a long selection process determining how close he could
01:51:16.960get, how many red lines he could cross, how much the child would be willing to tolerate in an
01:51:23.580unknown number of cases, I believe he did cross that line and sexually abuse children, not in a
01:51:30.460violent way. The distinction you're making between you believe he was a pedophile and maybe not a
01:51:36.880child molester but you believe yes is that you could be a pedophile without acting on it you're
01:51:41.240saying yeah they call themselves virtuous pedophiles and so there there are support groups for it's
01:51:48.440almost always men of course who who are attracted to children and who have committed to never acting
01:51:54.500on it because they know it's wrong and it's immoral and it's harmful and uh and they call
01:52:00.320themselves virtuous and i know i have to hand them credit if if they don't act on it then
01:52:06.120nobody is harmed. And, you know, I think that's what Michael Jackson should have done. He should
01:52:11.420have gotten help, tried to redirect his impulses. And if he couldn't redirect them to, you know,
01:52:17.540maybe young 18-year-old men, you know, which is, you know, what they call twinks in the gay1.00
01:52:24.460community. I'm not gay, but, you know, I know the term. You know, if he couldn't do that, then he
01:52:29.200had a moral responsibility to not act on those desires. And I believe he did.
01:52:35.320We did talk about before, there's tape of Michael Jackson talking about how Joe Jackson, who is
01:52:41.420without a question, abusive of his children. But I don't know about sexually abusive,
01:52:47.700but physically abusive. But there is tape of Michael Jackson saying that his father,
01:52:51.880before the beatings, used to make him get naked and used to rub oil all over Michael before he
01:52:58.360beat him with the cord of an iron. Now that's just bizarre. I mean, it's just, I I've never
01:53:03.500heard of the most abusive dads we've, we've heard of in the news, forcing a child to get naked and
01:53:09.800oiling him up. So that's strange. That's definitely strange. And, you know, sometimes with child
01:53:17.520abuse, sexual abuse, it can perpetuate itself. Like if it was done to you, there seems to be
01:53:22.560a higher likelihood that you're going to do it to somebody else. Um, there's no allegation that
01:53:26.200he beat any children, but I mean the possibility of sexual abuse unconfirmed, but it was something
01:53:31.560that was really jarring to listen to. Joe Jackson was not a good man. And it seems like the entire
01:53:37.260family admits that because they're all behind this movie and he's portrayed terribly in it.
01:53:42.020So clearly everyone, including Catherine Jackson, who's Joe Jackson's wife and Michael's mom,0.97
01:53:46.520who's still alive, she was fine with him being portrayed as a complete abusive bastard too.0.94
01:53:51.260So like, this is not a good person if we're looking for the wise.0.98
01:55:42.400And that was a huge scandal back then. It was technically legal. And, you know, if you look at contemporary artists, Picasso was a bastard. And all through history, you know, Leonardo da Vinci was a pedophile and a pederast in his time.
01:55:58.900And so I think you can enjoy the art, you can enjoy the music, but always with an asterisk. And the asterisk must mean that no matter how rich you are, no matter how gifted, no matter how famous, if you abuse your intelligence and gifts to exploit children, then that must always be a part of your legacy. It must always be mentioned. And anything that doesn't mention it is a whitewash and dishonest.
01:56:27.380totally fair i love the way you said that and i completely agree with you
01:56:32.380andrew hamill thank you so much for writing this piece again um it's at quillette if you google it
01:56:38.660um you'll find it but the name is never neverland the new michael jackson biopic and the campaign
01:56:46.080to whitewash the king of pop's reputation by andrew hamill h-a-m-m-e-l thank you thank you