The Megyn Kelly Show - The DEFINITIVE Deep Dive on Every Michael Jackson Allegation From 1993, 2003, and 2013, with Andrew Hammel ｜ Ep. 1327

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00:01:00.560 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:01:12.260 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:01:15.880 Michael Jackson was once one of the biggest stars on the planet.

00:01:20.560 Virtually everybody to this day knows who he was, whether they were alive when he was or not.

00:01:25.000 If you're of a certain age, you hear a song of his, and it transports you back in time immediately, and likely with some foot tapping and some body jamming.

00:01:34.740 It's just fun music that tends to be upbeat and great to listen to.

00:01:39.480 It, once again, is at the top of the charts after the release of the hit, and I do mean hit movie, Michael, starring his own nephew, Jafar Jackson, as him.

00:01:52.280 He worked for two years to learn the dance moves and to get the singing just right.

00:01:56.940 And ultimately, his dad, Jermaine, who's an executive producer, cast him in the movie or at least approved of it.

00:02:03.500 And it was not nepotism.

00:02:04.920 Maybe it was a nepotism, but it was a great choice because if you watch the movie, this young Jafar, who's I think 27 years old or so, nails it.

00:02:14.240 I mean, my gosh, he's got Michael to a T.

00:02:18.600 The fans are packing the theaters.

00:02:20.080 I mean, it's it's the biggest hit we've seen in a long, long time that doesn't have a superhero in it.

00:02:25.980 And in some cases, the audience reportedly standing up and cheering at the end of these things.

00:02:31.580 They're turning into like mini dance parties in places.

00:02:34.280 There's a scene in this movie where Michael defies his very abusive father, Joe Jackson, and begins his solo career.

00:02:44.000 Just watch one audience's reaction to that.

00:02:50.080 it's crazy i have to say that jafar jackson is very charming too there's something sweet about

00:03:05.700 his face and uh it kind of reminds you of the early michael jackson before he'd had

00:03:10.940 all that work done and got to be very freaky looking they go there too in in the film

00:03:15.960 eventually. But the point is that cultural moments like these, they just don't happen that often

00:03:22.080 anymore. You know, it's not like the 1990s when we're all watching Friends together and you had

00:03:27.160 to like talk about what was on the latest Seinfeld around the water cooler, even like Letterman,

00:03:32.420 you know, like there were certain things we all did. We all watched and everyone had to talk

00:03:37.180 about them. And it was something that bonded us. And this movie is starting to do that. I mean,

00:03:41.740 it's expected to make a billion dollars. It's up to 800 million already. I mean,

00:03:46.100 think about that. It's up to 800 million in a month. And it only tells like the first,

00:03:52.300 you know, 60% of Michael Jackson's life and the remaining 40 is left off. It came quickly,

00:04:00.660 but nothing about the abuse scandal, et cetera. And now next week, Netflix is going to get on

00:04:05.960 in on the action too. There are no dopes. Netflix is going to release a three-part series on his

00:04:10.880 2005 criminal trial, the only criminal trial he faced featuring jurors, courtroom insiders,

00:04:18.200 reporters, and witnesses. And that's certainly going to have a different feel from this movie,

00:04:22.200 which featured nothing, nothing about the multiple allegations against Michael Jackson.

00:04:28.260 And there's a reason for that. Basically, it occurred to them after they had reportedly

00:04:34.780 shot some scenes taking on the abuse allegations that they had signed settlement agreements

00:04:41.280 with whatever young men were depicted in the film, agreeing never to speak of them.

00:04:47.120 And the estate is bound by those agreements. So they had to lob off the last quarter of the movie.

00:04:53.600 And most have agreed that that was actually the greatest thing that ever happened in this movie

00:04:57.500 because it allows you to just feel good about this other version of Michael Jackson that we

00:05:02.540 all came to know and love. And the music, you know, it's fun. It makes you feel good. You're

00:05:06.500 proud of him. You know, he's like a Steve Jobs character, American born, American raised, who

00:05:13.040 goes on to do something to change the world. You know, Michael did that with his music and his

00:05:17.480 dancing, Steve Jobs with the iPhone, but Bill Gates, we could keep going. But that's how many

00:05:23.240 of us fell in love with Michael and want to remember him. And so the movie kind of benefits

00:05:28.500 from the fact that they didn't even go there well it's it's more complicated than that

00:05:34.860 unfortunately that's the reality and we're already being told that they're going to release a part

00:05:40.060 two of this movie and they said relatively soon so like at some point they're gonna have to address

00:05:47.100 it and i'm sure they're going to whitewash it i guess i shouldn't say that i don't know that

00:05:52.220 they're going to whitewash it i think they think they've got the better end of the arguments

00:05:56.400 So we'll see what they do.

00:05:58.800 But we here on the show are very into the story because everybody wants to know.

00:06:03.540 All these years after his death, which was 2009, people still ask each other when the news comes up, did he or didn't he?

00:06:11.620 What do you think?

00:06:12.820 You know, everybody, when we've covered on this show, everybody says, well, was he or wasn't he?

00:06:16.860 They want to know.

00:06:18.640 And I think for some, they want to know because it will help make them make a decision about how they feel about his music.

00:06:25.100 Like, can you enjoy the art and not the artist?

00:06:28.960 Is it forgivable?

00:06:32.520 Pedophilia against God knows how many kids?

00:06:35.840 Okay.

00:06:36.980 So you want to know.

00:06:39.120 And here on this show, we're going to try to get as close to truth as we can.

00:06:42.900 And we're very, very committed to bringing both sides.

00:06:45.860 Now, we recently had on Mark Garagos.

00:06:48.020 He was Michael Jackson's attorney for a time.

00:06:50.160 And we both discussed how we have some strong concerns about whether a couple of these accusers are credible, the stories they're telling, whether they're credible, and in particular in that so-called documentary that was done called Leaving Neverland, whether the filmmaker did the audience a disservice by not raising the very clear credibility questions of the two witnesses who were the main players in that movie.

00:07:20.160 The problem for this story and making up your mind is that everyone who has publicly accused Michael Jackson, everyone, save for the last four who just came out, the Casio family, like a month ago, because we just haven't really, no one's really looked into them.

00:07:36.440 But everyone has serious credibility problems.

00:07:39.720 And everyone, including those four Casios, has had their hand out for money, which makes it additionally complicated.

00:07:48.020 Okay.

00:07:48.620 So Garagos and I talked all about it.

00:07:50.460 And, you know, we were both torn because he had also interviewed the Casios.

00:07:54.780 It seemed to me, though he didn't say so, that they had considered hiring him potentially for a civil suit.

00:08:00.260 And it didn't go that way.

00:08:01.520 But he even said, my God, they seem so sincere and authentic and, you know, suggested that would have been a tough case.

00:08:10.460 But, okay, here's the thing.

00:08:12.960 before you can present the defense in any way or ask yourself if you believe or disbelieve

00:08:20.400 the witnesses who have come forward against Michael, you got to look at what those witnesses

00:08:25.060 are saying. And I've never felt comfortable just re-airing the claims of Safechuck and Robson.

00:08:32.600 Those are the two guys featured in Leaving Neverland, the so-called documentary. It's not

00:08:35.760 a documentary. It's not. I've never felt comfortable just slapping them on the air

00:08:40.360 because I do know that there are a lot of things that undermine their stories.

00:08:45.180 And yet I haven't found the credible presentation of the case against Michael Jackson

00:08:53.120 in a way that lends itself to narrative form for the show that we're doing now.

00:08:58.480 Until now. Until now.

00:09:00.660 I read a very compelling, fascinating deep dive on the long-forgotten moments

00:09:08.700 of the Jackson investigations. The one in 1993, that was the one that first broke it open

00:09:14.220 as a story, this Geordie Chandler. And then just about 10 plus years later,

00:09:20.980 when Michael was criminally charged with sexually abusing a different boy. This is a little boy who

00:09:27.460 had suffered from cancer. And that's the only case that ever actually got brought against him

00:09:32.500 in the criminal arena. And he beat the charges. This piece, which is in Quillette,

00:09:38.700 It's by a guy named Andrew Hamill, goes into great detail about how the investigations first began, how the search warrants were issued, what the searches performed as a result of the search warrants found in Michael Jackson's bedroom.

00:10:00.260 And I'm sorry, but we're going to go through it.

00:10:02.880 And it's disturbing.

00:10:04.840 Now, this is not based on the credibility of a witness who's looking for money.

00:10:08.700 This is, what did the police report finding in his bedroom?

00:10:13.760 And our guest, Andrew Hamill, knows the answer.

00:10:17.280 The article is titled, Never, Neverland, the new Michael Jackson biopic and the campaign

00:10:24.160 to whitewash the king of pop's reputation.

00:10:26.860 You can read it in full on the news website, Quillette, which I recommend to you all.

00:10:32.420 The author of the piece, Andrew Hamill, joins me now.

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00:11:33.820 10,000 bucks. Andrew, thank you so much for being with us. You're welcome. Glad to be here.

00:11:41.220 What a piece. First of all, how long did it take you to research this?

00:11:45.740 Actually, about three months, I would say. Because, I mean, I'd watched Michael Jackson's

00:11:51.100 trial in 2005, or the coverage, and read it because I'm a lawyer and it interested me because

00:11:57.380 they had great lawyers on both sides. And then Claire Lehman, the editor of Coilette,

00:12:02.660 asked me to take a look at it, given the new biopic. And so I spent a lot of time really

00:12:08.040 intensively researching the case. Okay. So had you been into the Michael Jackson

00:12:13.640 story or cases prior to that in any meaningful way? Not really. Not since 2005.

00:12:20.640 Okay. Fair enough. So this is kind of how I came to it too. I mean, I was a Michael Jackson fan,

00:12:25.480 like most people. I heard about the allegations. I didn't know what to make of them. And it wasn't

00:12:30.060 until that, again, air quotes, documentary came out in 2019 that sitting on my couch in between

00:12:35.760 jobs, I to him a lawyer and said, I actually would like to know whether this is real. Because

00:12:42.280 when Oprah got on there and really just kind of like put the period at the end of the documentary

00:12:46.240 and really just went to the victim-y Oprah place. And again, she's supposed to be a journalist

00:12:51.060 without testing. I mean, I think you or I, just as lawyers, would have asked those two

00:12:55.300 at least a couple of pressing questions. Again, I don't want to beat up on these guys. If they

00:13:00.240 were actually the survivors of molestation, that's the last thing you want to do. But you have an

00:13:04.200 obligation in telling the story, you know, to look at the other side, at least if you're going to

00:13:08.920 call yourself a documentary. So you decide to take a hard look at the whole story. And am I

00:13:16.460 correct that the very first whiff we got of this was Geordie Chandler. And how did that come up?

00:13:24.300 And who was Geordie Chandler? Sure. So Geordie Chandler was born in 1980. And he actually met

00:13:32.900 Michael Jackson in a restaurant sometime in the late 1980s, but just very fleetingly,

00:13:37.920 because they lived in LA. And Geordie Chandler's father was Evan Chandler, who was, he called

00:13:44.840 himself a dentist to the stars. So he was a dentist in Los Angeles and his mother was June

00:13:51.780 Chandler. And in 2000, I believe it was 1992, I'm sorry, Michael Jackson's car broke down in LA

00:14:01.740 and he pulled into a rent-a-wreck car rental agency. And that rent-a-wreck agency was actually

00:14:08.960 run by David Schwartz, who was the new, you know, the new husband of June Chandler. So,

00:14:16.560 Jordy Chandler's stepfather. And so, an employee there said, my God, we've got Michael Jackson

00:14:22.440 here. And we, you know, everyone knew that Jordy Chandler was a huge fan. So, David Schwartz called

00:14:29.000 up Jordy and said, you know, go meet your idol. And he leaped in a car and went out there and,

00:14:35.480 you know, they met, and Michael Jackson was very nice, and they exchanged phone numbers,

00:14:40.100 contact details, and then Jordy Chandler began hanging out with Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson

00:14:46.120 had already been hanging out with prepubescent boys for years by this time. You know, during the

00:14:52.300 1987 tour for his album Bad, he was accompanied the entire time by an Australian boy named Brett

00:15:01.320 Barnes. So it was known that, you know, Michael Jackson liked the company of young boys. So

00:15:08.200 Michael Jackson and Geordie Chandler struck up a relationship. Michael Jackson, of course,

00:15:13.100 went first to Geordie Chandler's mother, June. And, you know, he was extremely nice and extremely

00:15:20.280 helpful and very gracious and very complimentary. And he sort of inveigled himself into the family.

00:15:28.300 And Evan Chandler, the father, found out about this.

00:15:32.280 He found out that Jordan Chandler had begun actually sleeping in the same bed with Michael

00:15:38.860 Jackson with the approval of June Chandler, Jordy Chandler's mother.

00:15:44.960 And so Evan Chandler at first, and I think it's appropriate to point out that, you know,

00:15:50.260 none of the accuser's parents ever went to the police first.

00:15:55.500 They all went to lawyers.

00:15:57.620 They all looked for money and settlements first.

00:16:00.280 And so Evan Chandler finds out that, you know, his son is sleeping in the same bed with Michael Jackson, and he goes to civil lawyers.

00:16:08.980 And they refer Geordie Chandler to child psychologists to determine whether Geordie Chandler admitted to his father in June of 1993 after a dental operation that Michael Jackson had touched him inappropriately and had performed sexual acts on him.

00:16:28.000 That's what Geordie Chandler said to his father.

00:16:30.540 And then Evan Chandler went to lawyers looking to hire the most aggressive ones he possibly could.

00:16:36.660 Those lawyers referred Jordy Chandler, who was then 13, to child psychiatrists who interviewed him.

00:16:44.900 And under California law at the time, they were mandatory reporters.

00:16:48.720 They had to report, you know, credible accusations of child abuse to the authorities.

00:16:54.940 So that started both a civil lawsuit and a criminal investigation of Michael Jackson. 0.96

00:17:01.680 That civil lawsuit was filed for $30 million with accusations that Michael Jackson fondled and masturbated and performed oral sex on Geordie Chandler.

00:17:17.060 And the criminal investigation resulted in a search of Michael Jackson's body in December of 1993.

00:17:25.140 His body, of his body, you said?

00:17:26.580 his body yes his genitals his torso his buttocks because geordie chandler had told investigators

00:17:35.300 that i can tell you what michael jackson looks like nude and i can identify red spots on his 0.98

00:17:42.520 buttocks and a brown splotch on his penis when it's in an erect state and michael jackson complained 0.97

00:17:50.320 about this loudly you know he he hired satellite time four minutes of satellite time to complain 0.99

00:17:57.700 about this search we actually have some of that we have some of that andrew where he spoke out

00:18:02.440 about this in december of 1993 upset about what had happened i mean it was under court order so

00:18:09.100 he really had no choice but here's a little bit of that here in top five i have been forced to

00:18:14.740 submitted to a dehumanizing and humiliating examination by the Santa Barbara County Sheriff

00:18:20.880 Department and the Los Angeles Police Department earlier this week. They served a search warrant

00:18:26.440 on me which allowed them to view and photograph my body including my penis, my buttocks, my lower 0.92

00:18:33.200 torso, thighs, and any other area that they wanted. They were supposedly looking for any discoloration, 0.85

00:18:40.540 spotting, blotches, or other evidence of a skin color disorder called vitiligo, which

00:18:46.560 I have previously spoken about, the warrant further stated that I had no right to refuse

00:18:51.480 the examination or photographs, and if I failed to cooperate with them, they would introduce

00:18:56.840 that refusal at any trial as an indication of my guilt.

00:19:02.140 It was the most humiliating ordeal of my life, one that no person should ever have to suffer.

00:19:09.540 Even after experiencing the indignity of this search, the parties involved were still not satisfied and wanted to take even more pictures.

00:19:20.580 It was a nightmare, a horrifying nightmare.

00:19:23.800 But if this is what I have to endure to prove my innocence, my complete innocence, so be it.

00:19:31.380 you point out of the piece and it's true michael is wearing like very long eyelashes fake eyelashes

00:19:39.220 in the piece and he's already looking bizarre when he issues the statement in 1993 but yeah

00:19:43.980 there's a there's also an effeminate thing to michael uh that that happened as he continued

00:19:49.380 changing himself i said on on the air when we covered the movie two weeks ago you know he's

00:19:54.560 got the song black or white right and it's michael jackson was neither black nor white

00:20:00.600 Michael Jackson appealed to neither black nor white. He appealed to everybody. Michael Jackson

00:20:05.680 didn't seem straight or gay. He almost kind of seemed asexual. This discussion is probing whether

00:20:13.400 it was something even when a far more disturbing than that. Um, he wasn't political. He was,

00:20:19.240 it was just one of the reasons he became such a huge star is because he was nothing and everything

00:20:24.960 all at once. And here you see, he's like kind of neither male nor female. You know, it's like,

00:20:30.400 You don't know what he is exactly, but he was indignant for sure as a result of that search.

00:20:37.140 And Geordi, so then what happened next?

00:20:40.940 So the police did the search of Michael Jackson's body, and then what happened?

00:20:44.960 So they did the search of the body.

00:20:46.740 They also performed a search of his home, his ranch in Neverland.

00:20:53.700 Well, the ranch called Neverland, which was near Los Olivos, California in Santa Barbara County.

00:20:59.700 He bought that ranch in 1988 and transformed it into an amusement park and invited children to it and also lived there.

00:21:09.140 So the police also searched his master bedroom and his library at Neverland and also his condominium in Los Angeles.

00:21:18.020 And one of the, I think, very, very strange pieces of evidence they found in 1993 during the search of Neverland were two books that are actually even now extremely famous among male pedophiles, adult male pedophiles.

00:21:38.220 These books were published in the 1960s. One is called Boys Will Be Boys. The other is called

00:21:45.180 The Boy, a photographic essay. And both books contain many pictures of naked young boys

00:21:53.960 with their genitals exposed. These books were found in 1993 in a locked drawer of a file

00:22:02.160 cabinet in Michael Jackson's master bedroom. One of the books was inscribed from a fan from Chicago

00:22:09.700 in 1983. So a fan in 1983 thought that Michael Jackson would be interested in a book filled

00:22:17.900 with pictures of nude boys with their genitals exposed. And Michael Jackson wrote an inscription 0.95

00:22:23.500 on the book saying roughly, look at the joyful, playful freedom of young men. This is what I

00:22:30.580 never had, and this is what I want for my children. So we know Michael Jackson received these books

00:22:36.320 either as gifts or one of them he may have purchased and had them in his master bedroom

00:22:41.320 in a locked file drawer. And these books are important because they came up in a later

00:22:46.380 criminal trial in 2005. Now, back in 1993, the negotiations for a settlement went on.

00:22:53.140 But wait, wait, wait, before we leave the books, because to me, the books was, that was huge.

00:23:00.080 When I was, I was reading this piece, that was just a huge moment. It was, I don't want to say

00:23:05.120 a game set match, but it's getting very close. Um, no non pedophile has books in a locked drawer

00:23:14.740 in their bedroom with naked pictures of little boys. There is zero legitimate purpose for having

00:23:22.720 such a thing for clearly it's, he knew it was there. He has, he had written in one of them,

00:23:27.960 celebrated it. And when I read who was behind the books, it was like, oh God, because I spent years

00:23:36.440 on Fox News. And this is back in the day when O'Reilly was calling attention to this thing

00:23:41.660 called NAMBLA, the North American Man-Boy Love Association. And as soon as you got to NAMBLA

00:23:49.400 in your piece, my jaw dropped. That is a pedophile organization. They're trying to normalize 0.97

00:23:55.900 pedophilia. There's, you know, man, boy, love, that's not a thing. That's pedophilia. It's

00:24:01.260 another word for pedophilia. And what you write in the piece, I'm just going to read your paragraph

00:24:05.800 exactly. You write, these books were particularly popular with quote, boy lovers worldwide that

00:24:11.840 you put in quotes, cause that's what they call themselves since they could be purchased legally

00:24:15.380 in most Western countries. But the two men responsible for them were in fact pedophiles.

00:24:20.860 George St. Martin was the pseudonym of Martin Swithenbank, a British photographer from a

00:24:27.440 prestigious family who had relocated to the United States to study business administration

00:24:31.940 at Harvard on a Fulbright scholarship from 1950 to 52.

00:24:36.020 In 78, he co-founded Nambla.

00:24:39.620 According to other accounts, you say he was merely its trustee and contributed to its

00:24:43.920 bulletin.

00:24:45.500 In July of 81, he was convicted in a New York court of sodomizing young boys.

00:24:51.080 Forgive me, audience, for no viewer warning here, but you knew it was coming when we said Michael Jackson.

00:24:55.140 And sentenced to between 7 1⁄2 and 15 years in prison.

00:25:00.220 Ronald C. Nelson was the pseudonym of Ronald Drew, a New York teacher.

00:25:05.100 This is on the other book.

00:25:06.380 A New York teacher indicted for distributing pornographic images of children in 1980.

00:25:11.220 The 1993 Neverland Hall also yielded a nude photograph of a boy and another photograph of a boy holding an umbrella and wearing only a bikini bottom, which was partially pulled down.

00:25:25.300 That is just so devastating.

00:25:27.380 I just, I cannot think of any possible reason a non-pedophile would have that material in his file, his locked file, in his bedroom, Andrew.

00:25:39.640 I have a real difficult time getting past it. And so do I. And the interesting thing about

00:25:46.560 these books is if you look at FBI statistics on pedophiles, the ones who've been convicted,

00:25:53.420 and there's no doubt of their guilt, only 25% of them have explicit child pornography

00:25:59.660 because they know that that's illegal and extremely dangerous and many avoid it.

00:26:05.820 but an incredible amount have literally these two books in their collection because these books

00:26:13.520 are legal they are considered to have artistic merit and so you can buy and sell them if you

00:26:20.500 want to buy one now they cost over a thousand dollars and you can only get them in private

00:26:25.600 auctions to pedophiles because you do have to kind of out yourself yeah they so this is not

00:26:32.540 the kind of, you know, just, you can't find this book in your local library. And they probably

00:26:38.120 wouldn't stock it because it contains extremely explicit photos of young boys with their legs 0.98

00:26:44.020 spread, exposing their prepubescent genitals. And although it's legal, it is clearly the thing, 0.84

00:26:51.680 the kind of thing that, you know, would be of interest to a very specific clientele.

00:26:56.220 And Michael Jackson had these in his bedroom and inscribed one of the books himself.

00:27:02.300 So knowing that they had those books, that the cops found those, and that they were in the possession of the prosecutors, I mean, just as lawyers, you and I both know, his legal team understood there was zero chance he could go to trial on that case.

00:27:17.220 I mean, like, zero chance. And yet he did. Ten years later, when he got accused by the next child, he did go to trial on it.

00:27:28.020 Like, I don't, that's kind of where like I, the whole thing confuses me, you know, because it's

00:27:33.660 like a lawyer would be saying, Michael, you are toast. Like cop a plea, do something. They're

00:27:40.440 going to introduce those books and the jury is going to convict you. And yet he wasn't convicted

00:27:47.020 at that trial. I don't know if these books came in as evidence. It's possible they didn't for

00:27:52.700 some reason, they may have been excluded as too unfairly prejudicial. Do we know?

00:27:58.820 No, they did. They did come in.

00:28:00.780 Oh my God. And they still acquitted him?

00:28:03.620 But actually, that's not even the whole story. Not only did the books come in,

00:28:09.180 the prosecution also made a motion under California Evidence Rule 1108, which was

00:28:15.240 passed in 1995, to make it easier to convict child sexual abuse cases. And that law said,

00:28:22.700 you can introduce other evidence of sexual misconduct with children or any kind of sexual

00:28:30.460 misconduct, even if it didn't result in a conviction. Just for the audience, because

00:28:36.140 we've been following many cases, and we have been discussing on the show how that same rule

00:28:43.020 exists in New York State. It was passed after the Me Too movement, that you can allow in other

00:28:48.700 women to testify in a sexual harassment or abuse case. That's how Harvey Weinstein got convicted

00:28:54.420 the first time. And then it got overturned because the court of appeal, which is our

00:28:59.060 highest court in New York said, this is unfairly prejudicial. You cannot have a parade of witnesses

00:29:03.420 who are not identified victims in this case, take the stand. And now you can't do that. But

00:29:10.240 this same thing was in place in California when it came to people accused of child abuse,

00:29:15.460 child sexual abuse. And so that did happen at Michael Jackson's 2005 trial. Okay, but wait,

00:29:22.260 we're getting ahead of ourselves because I don't want to leave a Jordy Chandler and we'll get to

00:29:26.360 the next case, the trial. But you were saying, okay, in addition to finding those books in his

00:29:31.360 bedroom, and then you were going to give us a meantime update on Jordy Chandler, what he was

00:29:36.680 saying, I mean, one of the things that jumped out at me from your article was that Jackson was in

00:29:41.120 regular contact with June Chandler, Jordi's mom, and that at some point she found out that he was

00:29:49.980 sleeping with her son, like in the same bedroom. They'd all been at Neverland. He showered them

00:29:57.340 with compliments and gifts, you say. He took them on a trip to Las Vegas. And then after June

00:30:02.280 Chandler went to her bedroom with her daughter, Jordi and Michael Jackson watched The Exorcist

00:30:08.200 together. And then Jackson invited the frightened child to sleep with him. When his mother June

00:30:14.560 found out about this, you write, she put up some initial resistance to which Jackson responded

00:30:18.860 with tearful entreaty. So tell us what she did and what Michael Jackson did as a result of her

00:30:27.680 alleged upset in that moment. Sure. So they were all staying in a large luxury suite in a hotel

00:30:35.040 in Las Vegas, I believe it was the Mirage, and June Chandler and her daughter Lily were sleeping

00:30:41.960 in one bedroom, and they went to sleep, and then Michael Jackson and Jordy Chandler watched The

00:30:47.380 Exorcist. Jordy Chandler was terrified. Michael Jackson invited Jordy Chandler into his bedroom,

00:30:54.140 and I believe his bed, and they slept together. Nothing happened during that night, but June

00:31:00.780 Chandler the next morning said you know what's going on you know I didn't sign up for this

00:31:06.060 and Michael Jackson was crying and saying we are a family and we're all together we must trust each

00:31:14.020 other nothing would ever happen I would never do anything and then June Chandler relented and

00:31:20.140 Michael Jackson bought her Cartier bracelet worth you know probably 20 or 30 thousand dollars and

00:31:28.080 And from that time, as Jordy Chandler said in his interview with a child psychiatrist,

00:31:33.880 you know, Michael Jackson got my mother to agree to let us sleep in the same bed,

00:31:38.140 and we were in the same bed together until the end of our relationship.

00:31:42.120 For the price of a Cartier bracelet.

00:31:46.120 Yes, and even some other pieces of jewelry, too.

00:31:49.680 So, June, it's not a surprise that after all the illegal events of 2004 settled,

00:31:56.120 Geordie Chandler sued to be emancipated from his parents at the age of 15, both of his parents.

00:32:02.680 And that was granted because he claimed in court they were not properly taking care of them.

00:32:09.120 And the judge agreed. 0.75

00:32:10.600 And honestly, if you look back on this story and you believe that Michael Jackson is a pedophile, was a pedophile, shame on that set of parents.

00:32:20.640 because had they actually, if we're in the lane of this is true, he did it. Had they actually

00:32:27.600 just dealt with the police, conducted a criminal case or pushed all their resources into a criminal

00:32:34.100 case, not a money grab, who knows how many boys could have been saved in the future, but they

00:32:42.040 didn't. They went civil. Michael actually didn't pay right away. He was like, no, I'm not paying

00:32:48.660 this, he resisted. And that is one of the reasons why many of his supporters say he didn't react

00:32:55.220 like a panicked person who was guilty. He reacted like, who are you grifters? No, I'm definitely

00:33:00.020 not giving over a bunch of money. This is outrageous. And ultimately, though, he did

00:33:05.160 settle for a reported $20 million, they couldn't make a criminal case because you tell me what

00:33:11.980 happened after he did that payout. Sure. The payout occurred, the settlement occurred in January

00:33:17.800 of 1994. It was negotiated hard by lawyers on both sides. And the ultimate amount, we don't

00:33:25.820 know the exact ultimate amount, but we know that $15,300,000 was paid to Jordy Chandler in a trust

00:33:32.120 account and about $1 to $2 million to his parents. And the terms of that settlement say Jordy

00:33:39.160 Chandler can never say anything negative about Michael Jackson ever anywhere. And Michael Jackson

00:33:46.420 cannot mention geordie chandler ever for any reason which is why the michael biopic that's

00:33:53.720 currently being released had to be cut and after the settlement came now you know the santa barbara

00:33:59.540 and los angeles district attorneys were investigating michael jackson still in 1994

00:34:05.420 but geordie chandler indicated to them that he would not willingly testify against michael jackson

00:34:13.500 And so they convened grand juries.

00:34:14.880 They would have needed a subpoena, and you can only get that if the person's in the jurisdiction.

00:34:18.840 I mean, the truth is that even a settlement or a nondisclosure agreement can be overridden by a demand in a criminal case, potentially, or by government officials that you testify, that kind of thing.

00:34:31.460 Like, your nondisclosure obligation from a settlement agreement would be vitiated, and you would not have to give back the money.

00:34:36.820 but that's a separate matter from whether they can actually get a subpoena on you to force you

00:34:42.320 to appear. And generally you have to be within the jurisdiction and he wasn't. And he actually

00:34:46.440 threatened to leave the country altogether if they wanted to try to wrangle him in by subpoena.

00:34:51.560 And then as a prosecutor, you're like, okay, even if I were going to go do all that,

00:34:56.720 I have this extremely reluctant witness. What am I going to get? I'm not going to get what I want.

00:35:01.540 so they they decided not to pursue the criminal charges in 93 on the geordie chandler allegations

00:35:06.880 that's true and actually in uh in 1990 uh geordie chandler did say in 2005 during the criminal trial

00:35:15.800 i'll flee the country to avoid a subpoena in yeah sorry that's my four exactly he was he was still

00:35:22.580 there and he could have been subpoenaed um but he indicated that he would not cooperate and you know

00:35:29.540 Of course, the subpoena can overrule a civil settlement, but he strongly indicated, I'm not going to cooperate. I don't want any part of this.

00:35:37.900 And so the prosecution would have had to call a reluctant witness, and they had no idea what he might say.

00:35:46.540 And it's also important to understand that we don't really understand what Geordie Chandler's attitude toward Michael Jackson was at this time.

00:35:55.240 When he originally told his father, Michael Jackson, abused me, he also said, Daddy, please don't hurt Michael.

00:36:03.420 Don't go public with this, because that will be really bad for Michael.

00:36:07.960 And I don't want anything bad to happen to him.

00:36:10.400 He's a sweet and kind person.

00:36:13.080 I don't agree with what he did to me, but I don't want to destroy his career.

00:36:17.280 So we don't know exactly what Jordy Chandler thought,

00:36:20.760 but he might have still had very fond feelings to Michael Jackson.

00:36:26.180 And who knows what he might have said on the witness stand.

00:36:28.580 That Michael never touched him and that he, you know,

00:36:32.980 his defense was always that I'm a child.

00:36:35.860 I hang out with children. There's nothing wrong.

00:36:37.440 What could be a nicer expression of friendship and love than sleeping in the

00:36:40.420 same bed? You know, I mean,

00:36:41.880 two young girls having, having been a, a tween and teen girl, you'd sleep in the same bed as

00:36:49.360 a girlfriend any, any time. Like that's not unusual for two, like 10 year olds who are having a

00:36:53.600 sleepover. Um, yeah, a 30 year old man with a 10 year old boy is a very different scenario and

00:36:59.440 should never be allowed. It just shouldn't be. But anyway, um, so it's possible that Georgie

00:37:04.340 Chandler never accused Michael Jackson and told the dentist father he didn't. And the dentist

00:37:10.580 father came up with this story that, no, no, Jordy said he did. You told me, Jordy, right after I gave

00:37:16.740 you the anesthetic for your dental work, you told me that he did. And now, you know, there's a big

00:37:21.480 dispute. And it's possible that the parents manipulated him either to make false allegations

00:37:25.700 or that they were making the false allegations, because it seems pretty clear the parents are 0.99

00:37:30.520 disgusting. The mother's disgusting, I'm willing to say it. And this father seemed very focused 1.00

00:37:36.640 on getting a payout from the moment the idea occurred to him, either because his child made

00:37:41.560 out an allegation or because he just got the idea. And I think that was also part of the

00:37:46.340 prosecutor's calculation, you know, like, okay, the boy's not going to testify. Are the parents

00:37:51.800 credible? Do I like my witnesses? Like, how is that going to play? And it was very clear that

00:37:56.580 they were not going to play well. And so in that, from that standpoint, they did the right thing,

00:38:01.560 the prosecutors, because, you know, you can't go through all this only to have a fall apart,

00:38:05.800 just ask the ones who brought the case in 2005, where they had yet another terrible mother who

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00:40:21.380 So he pays Jordi Chandler that money.

00:40:24.860 They go away.

00:40:25.700 The family goes away.

00:40:26.480 And now we have a 12-year period from 93 to 2005, and the next big thing would be the criminal charges for another boy.

00:40:39.100 But what happened in between that time, Andrew?

00:40:42.900 Like, was the pedophilia thing quiet?

00:40:46.620 Did no other boys come forward?

00:40:47.780 Do we know what was going on?

00:40:49.460 Well, during that time, from 1994 to 2005, there was a sort of a concerted effort to try to repair Jackson's reputation. So in 1994, he married Lisa Marie Presley in, I think, the Dominican Republic.

00:41:07.460 one second. Forgive me. Forgive me. Because I love to do it linearly. I think the audience gets it

00:41:11.060 better. So right before Lisa Marie, and while this whole nightmare with Jordi was about to wrap up or

00:41:17.740 in the process of going there, Michael's sister Latoya came out and stuck the knife in. And as

00:41:26.020 far as I know, she's the only family member who's done this. But she stuck the knife in and twisted 0.91

00:41:31.460 it. And here is what she said. She was in Tel Aviv for a concert sought for. I must tell you

00:41:38.420 that this is very difficult for me, that Michael is my brother. I love him a great deal, but I

00:41:47.000 cannot and I will not be a silent collaborator of his crimes against small, innocent children.

00:41:54.940 And if I remain silent, then I means that I feel the guilt and humiliation that these children

00:42:00.680 a feeling and i think it's very wrong i have seen checks payable to the parents of these children

00:42:07.720 and i don't know if these children were apparently brought the parents by michael or not but i have

00:42:14.680 seen these checks and i've seen these checks through my mother she showed me these checks

00:42:19.160 that michael had written to these children and it's for a great amount and i'm not speaking pennies

00:42:24.600 the sums are very very large amount and this is my first time talking about it and i never

00:42:29.560 want to speak about it i never want to say anything about it but i think it's sad because

00:42:33.640 i am a victim myself and i know what it feels like and these kids are going to be scarred for

00:42:37.560 the rest of their life and i don't want to see any more innocent small children being affected this

00:42:42.360 way very damning but it didn't stand she wound up taking it back andrew yes that's true i think

00:42:53.400 think that interview was given in 1993 and uh it was very damning it was reported worldwide

00:42:59.900 and uh she also said in a book she published in 1991 uh she described that you know the the

00:43:08.340 jackson family matriarch catherine was extremely displeased with michael's behavior when they were

00:43:13.220 living in the same home in encino california and she called him you know an anti-gay slur

00:43:19.560 and she showed LaToya these checks. Now, later, LaToya took it all back and she said that when

00:43:27.280 she made these statements, she was under the influence of her abusive ex-husband, who actually

00:43:33.380 was almost certainly abusing her at the time, and that none of what she said was true. At the time,

00:43:40.540 she said, I can prove evidence, you know, I can provide evidence Michael Jackson abused kids for

00:43:45.560 $500,000 to a tabloid. But, you know, they inquired and she didn't have any evidence of

00:43:52.160 that. So she took it all back. But still, you know, it took a lot to repair her ties with

00:43:58.600 her family after her coming out and saying that. And also one other question on the Jordi Chandler

00:44:03.420 case before we move forward. The search warrant and the pictures of Michael's genitals and his

00:44:09.420 body, they were looking for something in particular to see if it matched up with the

00:44:15.580 description, I guess they got from Geordi. There appears to have been some sort of a birthmark

00:44:20.100 on Michael Jackson's penis, like some sort of dark spot. I don't know if it was a birthmark 0.99

00:44:26.660 or it was the vitiligo, which makes your skin darker in some places and whiter in other places.

00:44:32.000 And did Geordi Chandler accurately say that that existed? How did that whole

00:44:38.280 matchup go do we know yeah that is still to this day extremely controversial as with almost

00:44:46.300 everything in this case uh geordie chandler gave a description to police um about jackson's torso 0.98

00:44:52.800 and genitals and he claimed that underneath jackson's uh penis which is you know you could 0.97

00:45:00.720 only see this in an erect state there was a dark splotch possibly caused by you know uh you know 0.98

00:45:08.160 maybe vitiligo had affected other parts of the genitals and this was unaffected.

00:45:13.560 And according to law enforcement officers, you know, when Jackson was photographed, he made a

00:45:19.480 big stink about it. He was extremely upset. And he also had his own photographers there also

00:45:25.440 taking pictures. These photographs have never been released. And that is why there's a debate

00:45:30.640 until this day. Law enforcement officers say that, you know, they have seen the photographs

00:45:36.560 and the photographs were consistent with what Geordie Chandler said. However, to be fair,

00:45:43.360 Geordie Chandler also said that Michael Jackson had a circumcised penis, and at his autopsy in 2009, 0.99

00:45:51.740 the coroner said his penis appears uncircumcised. So we still do not have full clarity about whether 0.97

00:45:59.340 Geordie Chandler's descriptions were accurate, but law enforcement officers have said they were,

00:46:05.600 and there's many people think that that was one reason that Jackson settled. Now,

00:46:13.680 Jackson had his own photographs taken. He has never released those. He has never asked for

00:46:19.100 the sealed photographs to be released during his lifetime. So unfortunately, we'll never know the

00:46:24.340 truth, but law enforcement officers say it did match generally. Okay. So now we're back to

00:46:32.460 Geordi and family go away. Now we're in this period from 94 to 2004 or 5 when he goes on trial.

00:46:40.340 What's happening? What's happening is first, I mean, damage control. So there was the marriage

00:46:48.140 to Lisa Marie Presley, which lasted two years from 1994 to 1996. It's pretty well documented

00:46:56.880 that they didn't stay together very much at all.

00:47:00.960 And I believe she had her own home for most of the marriage

00:47:04.880 and it dissolved in 1996.

00:47:07.460 Jackson also released an album during this time

00:47:09.980 in which he attacked-

00:47:11.560 Let's spend a minute on Lisa Marie

00:47:13.080 because she was asked by Oprah, 1.00

00:47:18.060 did you consummate the marriage?

00:47:21.140 And it was one of those like famous moments

00:47:24.240 where Lisa Marie was like, 0.95

00:47:25.940 Oprah and Oprah kind of shamed her audience who were like oohing an eye and say, you know, 1.00

00:47:30.260 you want to know the answer too. And she was not wrong. I have to ask you this. Was it a

00:47:36.180 consummated marriage? Oh my God. Oprah, I have to ask that question. And you all know damn well,

00:47:44.900 you want to know. I mean, it was a real marriage like between the husband and wife. It was a

00:47:54.840 consummated marriage. It was. Okay, that's all. So that happened. And she gave a couple of

00:48:02.240 interviews and she ultimately revealed that her mother, Priscilla Presley, had urged her not to

00:48:09.520 marry him, saying, you're being used. He's being accused of molesting a little boy and he's using

00:48:18.480 you to make himself look like a straight, normal guy. So don't do this. But Lisa Marie did marry

00:48:26.060 him. They had a lot in common because they both grown up with no childhoods, like a completely

00:48:30.880 under the scrutiny and glare of the bright lights in the media, which gave neither one of them a

00:48:36.580 moment's peace. Lisa Marie threw no fault of her own. Michael originally threw no fault of his own.

00:48:41.620 His dad made him become this star, but eventually he chose it. And it does seem that they developed

00:48:47.380 actually a very close friendship, though it didn't look anything like a marriage to most people.

00:48:52.720 I think Lisa Marie would later say that they did consummate the marriage or that they at least had

00:48:56.460 had sex in the course of the marriage. But who knows? It seems like they were really just more

00:49:01.800 friends. And here's a little bit of the two of them at the MTV Video Music Awards. This is the

00:49:09.620 opening of September 1994. Here it is. They walk out together. It's not 11.

00:49:15.040 Please welcome Mr. and Mrs. Michael Jackson.

00:49:25.380 Welcome to the MTV Video Music Awards.

00:49:40.000 I'm very happy to be here.

00:49:42.160 and just think, nobody thought this would last.

00:49:53.200 They're kissing.

00:50:02.300 And yeah, she said it was a complete marriage.

00:50:05.300 Yes, it was a complete marriage.

00:50:06.320 So that happened and it didn't last, actually, Andrew.

00:50:12.160 No, it only lasted two years, and there were no children as a result of the marriage.

00:50:17.720 It's amazing, though, when you see that beautiful face looking exactly like Elvis, right?

00:50:21.900 It's like Lisa Marie was the spitting image of her equally famous dad.

00:50:29.280 I mean, it's tough to say that Elvis was more famous than Michael Jackson.

00:50:32.060 It's like, has anyone been more famous than Michael Jackson?

00:50:34.920 Like, who's ever the most famous, like Princess Diana, Elvis, the Beatles, he's tied, at least.

00:50:42.160 Here's just one more.

00:50:43.280 Norm MacDonald, you know, one of the greatest social commentators and political commentators to have lived in the modern era.

00:50:50.220 Just underappreciated while he was alive, but posthumously has been celebrated many times by new fans.

00:50:56.060 There he was on Saturday Night Live in 1996 after the divorce was announced with the following.

00:51:02.580 SOT 12.

00:51:03.580 The nation is still reeling from Thursday's bombshell announcement that Lisa Marie Presley has filed for divorce from Michael Jackson.

00:51:10.480 According to friends, the two were never a good match. 0.99

00:51:13.280 She's more of a stay-at-home type, and he's more of a homosexual pedophile. 0.96

00:51:21.060 So there's a little flavor of what the populace was doing, which is not buying it. 0.97

00:51:27.400 They did not buy what he was trying to sell with that kiss and with the marriage to Lisa Marie.

00:51:32.380 Sorry, now keep going.

00:51:34.300 Sure, Ed.

00:51:35.020 So after that marriage dissolved, Jackson also released an album in the late 90s in which he attacked the prosecutor of Santa Barbara County, Tom Sneddon, in a song that actually had anti-Semitic lyrics mentioning kikes and Jews, which...

00:51:53.020 Michael did a song with that?

00:51:56.020 Oh, yes. He did a song attacking Tom Sneddon and the press.

00:52:01.500 His prosecutor. 0.98

00:52:02.280 And the lyrics to this, yeah, the lyrics to the song go, kick me, kike me, sue me, jew me. 0.96

00:52:12.820 And he had to apologize for this to, you know, and he apologized in a groveling fashion. 1.00

00:52:20.100 But, you know, that was something that really stunned me.

00:52:24.440 Well, he really got that push swept under the carpet because, I mean, I guess, you know,

00:52:29.900 if you're going to choose your controversy you'd probably choose like i said something

00:52:34.380 anti-semitic over i molested a bunch of little boys so i can see why the one drowned out the

00:52:39.180 other but i was not even aware that he had done that um okay so he's got he's clearly bitter over

00:52:44.540 his prosecutor yeah and then he went on to marry a woman called debbie roe who was a medical

00:52:51.400 assistant to his own uh dermatologist and they were married for a couple years in the late 1990s

00:52:58.520 And that marriage produced two children. So Paris Jackson and Prince Michael Jackson, the first. And of course, they're still around. And frankly, especially if you look at Paris Jackson, she looks like a Swedish bikini model.

00:53:17.340 There's no way she is the biological child of Michael Jackson. 0.88

00:53:19.920 I don't think so at all. And I, you know, Debbie Rowe has, of course, everyone who had, you know, close associations with Michael Jackson has signed NDAs and has also agreed to never really go into detail truthfully.

00:53:35.920 truthfully. So we'll never know exactly what happened in that marriage. But that marriage

00:53:39.840 also collapsed after producing two children. And then in the early 2000s, like in 2000, 2001,

00:53:48.220 Jackson was really, you know, in the doldrums career-wise. His latest album hadn't really hit

00:53:53.880 very well. And, you know, Pepsi had canceled their contract with him. And he was getting more and

00:54:01.180 were into debt. And so then he decided on a really huge gamble. He invited a British tabloid

00:54:08.960 journalist to accompany him for eight months, just to make a documentary about his ordinary

00:54:14.460 private life. And that documentary came out in 2002. And it was called Living with Michael

00:54:22.120 Jackson with Martin Bashir. And the documentary, you can find it online, but it's hard to find it

00:54:29.040 online lots of sources about michael jackson exist only in like you can only find this documentary

00:54:35.200 in 10 minute long youtube clips from years ago so you know lawyers and fixers have definitely

00:54:41.720 been trying to take care of this because the documentary is incredibly damning i mean it shows

00:54:48.880 jackson at neverland ranch and he goes buying expensive things at the faberge store in las

00:54:54.640 vegas uh he attempts to bottle feed his child prince michael jackson the first but that doesn't

00:55:00.340 go well and he also this is we have that let me show that that's sat seven i love you here he is

00:55:08.460 here's the bottle wait wait here's the bottle it's okay just get this off

00:55:14.920 Ow! Oh, please don't cry. Blanket.

00:55:16.600 Blanket. Blanket. Blanket.

00:55:17.660 Okay, okay. Here we go.

00:55:19.000 Abu! Abu! Abu! 0.72

00:55:22.280 Yes. Abu! 0.97

00:55:24.280 Blanket. Blanket. Blanket.

00:55:26.980 Blanket. I love you. Blanket.

00:55:28.840 Yes. Yes. Yes.

00:55:30.580 I love you. I love my children

00:55:32.860 very much. Why would I put a scarf over

00:55:34.880 the baby's face when I was trying to

00:55:36.420 throw them off the balcony? We were waving

00:55:38.760 to thousands of fans down below

00:55:40.560 and they were chanting they want to see my child.

00:55:42.860 So I was kind enough to let them see.

00:55:44.920 I was doing something out of innocence.

00:55:47.940 Thank you.

00:55:51.200 Jackson's behavior was beginning to alarm me.

00:55:55.880 It looks like he has never encountered a baby before in his life,

00:56:01.300 never mind held or fed one.

00:56:03.120 That was shocking.

00:56:05.340 And that's also the baby that he held over the balcony

00:56:09.940 of the Hotel Adlon in Berlin to cheering fans.

00:56:14.000 which also caused a lot of, you know, frankly, horror and anguish among observers.

00:56:20.560 It was so strange. The crowd down below was cheering him, just like we've seen them do,

00:56:25.260 like the famous Marilyn Monroe moment. Only Michael had his baby and decided, rather than

00:56:30.640 just like even kind of gesturing, here's my baby, to literally put him on the opposite side of the

00:56:36.460 railing of a balcony. I mean, like, it's, I don't even know what to say, but I remember that moment

00:56:43.800 because it went everywhere.

00:56:45.720 And this was the cleanup he tried to do with Martin Bashir,

00:56:48.880 where he doesn't, he's got the kid, for listeners,

00:56:52.800 covered in like a green veil, like a green scarf,

00:56:56.940 allegedly, so we can't see the baby's face.

00:56:58.520 Well, you can see right through it,

00:56:59.540 and you can see what the baby looks like anyway.

00:57:01.500 The baby hates the veil, not surprisingly,

00:57:03.960 especially when he's trying to get his bottle,

00:57:05.920 and Michael can't get it in his mouth

00:57:07.420 and doesn't look like he's familiar with babies

00:57:09.920 or with his baby or comfortable.

00:57:12.160 Poor Martin Bashir, who must have been a father.

00:57:14.960 I mean, just the way he jumps in is basically like, please stop torturing that baby.

00:57:20.020 This is awful.

00:57:21.120 If you are listening to this show, I urge you to go to our show about an hour in and look at this video.

00:57:26.900 My God, go on YouTube and check this out.

00:57:31.220 Good gracious.

00:57:32.080 So the Martin Bashir interview didn't go well.

00:57:36.640 I think we have one more from that exchange.

00:57:40.960 yeah okay is it sat okay here's sat eight a little bit more watch how do you write a song

00:57:49.840 how do you write a song how do i write a song well

00:57:54.760 you don't have a pen in your hand and you don't try what would happen if i sat here and played

00:58:00.380 some chords whatever and say i'm going to write the best song ever written nothing happens

00:58:04.000 something in the heavens has to say look this is the time that this is going to be laid on you and

00:58:09.240 This is when I want you to have it.

00:58:11.280 Now, I remember when I wrote Billie Jean,

00:58:13.680 I was riding in my car down Ventura Boulevard.

00:58:17.640 All I said to myself beforehand,

00:58:19.540 I want to write a song with a great bass hook, you know.

00:58:23.220 And I just let it go, really.

00:58:27.400 And then several days later, you know.

00:58:33.300 Where did that come from?

00:58:36.300 From above.

00:58:37.220 so that's just another flavor from the documentary you got to know him the good and the bad like

00:58:42.580 okay yeah that's the kind of thing we're tuning in for tell us how did billy jean come about you

00:58:47.440 know it's like um i've had these conversations with richie sambora of bon jovi and they're

00:58:52.980 fascinating like how did that rhythm come to you like where were you when wanted dead or alive

00:58:58.200 popped into your head and he can tell you that story and yet we had a lot of the dark moments

00:59:04.760 too. Last week, or when we aired this right after the movie, we played the soundbite where he tried

00:59:10.500 to defend what could be more natural than sleeping in the bed together with a little boy. It's

00:59:15.740 loving. It's the most loving thing you could do, which would haunt him for the rest of his life.

00:59:21.400 And then here's a little bit where he was filmed with Gavin Arvizo, and this would be the next boy

00:59:29.200 to accuse him publicly.

00:59:31.500 The Bashir thing was, what, 2002?

00:59:35.620 2000, right around there? 1.00

00:59:36.740 Two, I think, yes.

00:59:37.460 2003?

00:59:38.820 Okay, three.

00:59:40.260 And the criminal charges against him would be filed in 2005

00:59:43.720 by this, as a result of this boy, who he features.

00:59:48.720 He's 12 years old, he's a cancer survivor,

00:59:50.760 and he chooses to expose Martin Bashir to this boy,

00:59:55.380 Gavin Arvizo, in the documentary.

00:59:58.580 When people hear that children from other families have come

01:00:03.820 and they've stayed in your house, they've stayed in your bedroom.

01:00:08.000 Well, very few.

01:00:09.560 But, you know, some have, and they say,

01:00:12.720 is that really appropriate for a man, a grown man, to be doing that?

01:00:18.000 How do you respond to that?

01:00:19.380 I feel sorry for them because that's judging someone

01:00:22.120 who wants to really help people.

01:00:24.360 Why can't you share your bed?

01:00:25.680 that the most loving thing to do is to share your bed with someone you know you really think that

01:00:32.340 yeah haven't you got a spare room or a spare house here where he could have stayed yeah but

01:00:38.300 no yes i have we have guest units but whenever kids come here they always want to stay with me

01:00:42.940 and and gavin's head is resting on michael's shoulder while he's saying that like he they

01:00:52.960 look like lovers? Or you could put an innocent explanation on it and say, your own child might

01:01:01.000 lean on you like that, especially if you were under some sort of stress or attack, they might

01:01:07.100 lean on you like that. But this was not his child. This was somebody else's child. And this child

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01:04:57.920 Hey everyone, it's me, Megan Kelly.

01:05:00.080 I've got some exciting news.

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01:05:27.580 he got to know the arvisos because i mean gavin arviso who you saw in that clip

01:05:36.980 he had uh he had a tumor that was you know almost the size of like a grapefruit removed

01:05:43.580 from his body and was it's had stage four cancer and was right near death and miraculously he

01:05:50.540 recovered and fortunately he's alive right now uh his mother was named janet arviso and gavin

01:05:56.600 had two siblings, Star, a brother, and Davelin, a sister. And they appeared in the Bashir

01:06:04.880 documentary, and Jackson was very close to the family. As always with families, he showered

01:06:10.060 them with gifts and, you know, attention. And, you know, I think I'm certainly paid

01:06:16.360 for parts of Gavin's medical treatment, was very generous, and invited them to Neverland,

01:06:22.700 etc. And at this point, you know, when the Bashir documentary was made, there were no

01:06:30.740 accusations of abuse between Gavin Arvizo and Michael Jackson. But then after the Bashir 0.90

01:06:39.960 documentary came out, the Jackson camp went into damage control, and they invited the family up to

01:06:46.240 Neverland to create a rebuttal video in which the family was supposed to give long interviews

01:06:53.580 praising Michael Jackson and saying nothing happened, everything was fine. Now, these

01:06:58.900 interviews were never aired. The rebuttal video was aired with outtakes of the Martin Bashir

01:07:03.560 documentary that showed Jackson in a more positive light. But allegedly, during the time that Gavin

01:07:10.700 Arvizo and the Arvizo family were at Neverland doing the rebuttal video, that is when Gavin

01:07:15.660 Arvizo alleged that Michael Jackson sexually abused. Arvizo alleged at the 2005 trial that

01:07:22.140 Michael Jackson had given him wine, which Jackson called Jesus juice. And other, you know, James

01:07:29.400 Safechuck also says Michael Jackson gave him wine. Gavin Arvizo also said that Michael Jackson

01:07:35.480 had shown him pornography to get him aroused. And in fact, Gavin Arvizo's fingerprints were found on

01:07:43.420 copies of Hustler, Barely Legal, Hardcore. So his fingerprints and Michael Jackson's

01:07:51.180 fingerprints were both found on an issue of that magazine. And so Gavin Arvizo, once again,

01:07:58.060 Gavin Arvizo's allegations were not given immediately to the police. He went to a child

01:08:04.980 psychiatrist and the psychiatrist reported the potential abuse. And then that's what started

01:08:12.600 the ultimate 2005 trial rolling. And there was another search of Jackson's home and apartments

01:08:21.640 in LA, and they found yet more legal nude child erotica, and also explicit adult homosexual 0.92

01:08:34.340 pornography and explicit adult heterosexual pornography. A lot of it. And also porno DVDs. 0.91

01:08:43.580 And much of it was in Michael Jackson's master bedroom, which he shared with children. And it

01:08:51.200 was accessible to them. Perhaps not laying out, but in bookcases or in drawers. And that also

01:08:58.620 became a part of the 2005 trial. And so Gavin Oviso accused Michael Jackson of abusing,

01:09:05.560 sexually abusing him during the filming of the rebuttal video. And that's what led to the 2005

01:09:11.060 trial. And there is other testimony around this same time. I don't know if it was at the trial,

01:09:17.960 but about how now in the corridor leading to Michael's bedroom, they've added all these

01:09:25.420 these security alarms, like basically down a 25 yard hallway, like a lights will go off and

01:09:33.640 alarms will sound. If you get anywhere near Michael's bedroom, which has some six locks on

01:09:39.540 it, including dead bolts, multiple dead bolts. Now, I mean, I understand as a public figure,

01:09:45.720 you do need to feel safe in your bedroom. So like there's that defense there, but that sounds like

01:09:51.000 a lot. So there is a question about whether that was there so that he could have a warning if

01:09:56.800 anybody was coming. And there have been over the years, a bunch of security guards and maids and

01:10:04.660 other servants who have worked at Neverland who have come out to say he was doing it. Like I never

01:10:11.280 saw him actually molesting somebody, but I saw him in his bedroom or I had to clean his bedroom

01:10:15.260 with like incriminating underwear, you know, boys underwear. Um, or, you know, I saw him pick up

01:10:20.880 young boys and, you know, take them home to his bedroom, not like strangers, but like testimonies

01:10:25.180 like that. But in every case, again, they were money grabs. These people wanted money. They

01:10:32.380 either sued Michael for money or they took big tabloid payments to say these things. This is

01:10:39.060 the thing that's so infuriating about this case, Andrew, right? It's like everybody had their

01:10:44.720 handout. All I want is one, the few witnesses who come forward who didn't take money defend

01:10:53.000 Michael, like Macaulay Culkin, like Brett Barnes. They have never taken a dime and they defend

01:11:00.980 Michael. I want one person who has not taken money, who comes out to say, this is real. He

01:11:11.960 did it to me. And I don't want to die. I just want you to know this is real. That would make

01:11:17.200 it so much easier. But the fact that all these accusers took money is just so despicable in my

01:11:23.000 view. They've muddied the waters. Anyway, back to you. Yeah, that's the argument that won the

01:11:30.440 trial in 2005. So Michael Jackson's lawyer, Tom Mesereau, veteran criminal defense attorney,

01:11:36.400 extremely good lawyer. He cross-examined all of these. They were all allowed to testify as sort

01:11:43.620 of like pattern and propensity evidence to show that Michael Jackson had a tendency to abuse young

01:11:49.100 boys. But Mesereau tore them all apart on cross-examination. And the argument that he

01:11:54.080 consistently made is, if you really saw a child being abused with your own eyes by Michael Jackson,

01:12:01.200 as you claim or something that you know that's extremely incriminating why didn't you just

01:12:06.920 immediately go to the police and they didn't have a good answer for that and they all had to admit

01:12:12.960 they'd taken tabloid money they had threatened to sue michael jackson many of them were disgruntled

01:12:19.220 employees who had been fired for cause as mesero was able to show and so the attempt to show this

01:12:27.080 broad pattern fell apart because basically every one of the accusers had their hand out or had a

01:12:33.800 grudge or had changed their story. And so that is, you know, I say in the article that I think

01:12:41.660 the jury's verdict was reasonable. They could have gone the other way, but acquittal was appropriate

01:12:48.880 under the circumstances because there are so many holes in the prosecution's case because of these

01:12:54.680 witnesses. Yeah. Here is Tom Mesereau in 2019 speaking about the Jackson case. Saw 21.

01:13:04.380 Do you think he's remotely or could have been remotely capable of doing any of those things?

01:13:09.140 The things he's been accused of doing? Absolutely not. I am 100 percent convinced

01:13:13.840 Michael never abused a child, never harmed a child, certainly never molested a child. I think

01:13:20.280 this is hogwash. Do you think if he was still alive, do you think these people would now be

01:13:25.960 coming out and saying the same thing that he molested me? I just don't know. I mean, I think

01:13:31.800 I have to believe these are financially motivated accusations. I have to believe that

01:13:37.180 because how else can you explain it? I take that into account too, but I personally am not involved

01:13:44.120 in their civil lawsuits. I've not represented anybody in them. I've not been present for any

01:13:48.260 of the proceedings. I don't know who said what in those cases. I just know the evidence that I saw.

01:13:54.160 And that leads me to a very powerful conclusion that Michael Jackson never abused a child at any

01:14:01.540 time, never tried to hurt a child. We had testimony in the trial that he said he would slit his wrists

01:14:07.260 before he would hurt a child. So, okay, that's Mesereau. He believes his client. But in that

01:14:15.400 trial while he did a very good job defending michael jackson it was the cross-examination of

01:14:20.960 of the mother of the victim the alleged victim who sunk the case so she sank the case so what

01:14:31.320 what was so bad about the mother's testimony andrew like why did she do so poorly well i believe she

01:14:38.160 was on the stand for something like five days uh and the reason she was important is because the

01:14:44.720 prosecutor had sought to sort of like upcharge the child molestation allegations by also saying

01:14:52.800 that Michael Jackson and his employees had essentially kidnapped the family and forced

01:14:58.840 them to stay at Neverland Ranch to make these exculpatory interviews. And that was a bad mistake

01:15:07.020 by the prosecution because, you know, Janet Arvizo took the stand. She snapped her fingers at the 0.72

01:15:12.200 jury. She lectured. She went on long rambling excursions. She had to be reprimanded by the 0.67

01:15:19.740 judge over and over. And, you know, the defense attorneys kept pointing out, you could have left

01:15:25.820 at any time. And, you know, you even left the ranch and came back to it voluntarily because

01:15:32.240 you wanted the favors and you wanted the free lodging and, you know, the possibility of gifts

01:15:37.700 from Michael Jackson. You weren't kidnapped, you weren't held against your will, and she was also,

01:15:44.360 you know, she engaged in fraud, welfare fraud, and perjury that she was convicted of after the trial,

01:15:50.800 but there was already indications that she had basically applied for welfare even though she

01:15:57.020 had already gotten a $150,000 judgment in a lawsuit against J.C. Penney. You know, allegedly

01:16:05.700 one of the security guards attacked her in the parking lot. And she had all that money,

01:16:10.580 the $150,000, and then she applied for welfare and got it and concealed that settlement,

01:16:16.100 which she certainly did. And so she was completely non-credible. And Mesereau painted her as sort of

01:16:23.200 a grifting con artist willing to do anything to extort money from the Jackson estate. Now,

01:16:28.620 it's true she didn't sue him before the criminal trial. But as we both know, had Michael Jackson

01:16:35.400 been convicted, then the civil judgment against him would have been just, you know, a matter of

01:16:40.560 pure form. You know, she could just sue him for civil damages and automatically win because he'd

01:16:46.360 already been convicted. I do feel the need to say that we see this pattern oftentimes, whether it's

01:16:52.900 a pedophile or a serial rapist of women or a harasser, abuser. These victimizers choose their

01:17:00.920 victims wisely. They don't usually choose somebody from an intact home with a loving set of present

01:17:08.980 parents and financial means. They look for someone who's vulnerable, who might be in a difficult

01:17:16.960 family situation, and whose credibility, the family as well, would be easy to destroy. So I do

01:17:24.740 feel the need to say that because is it possible he did that with these families? Yes, it is. It's

01:17:30.320 possible. It's one of the possibilities that's out there. Um, okay. So he wins that trial and

01:17:36.180 we, we go forward. Now you point out in your piece that, um, there's a journalist named Diane

01:17:43.600 Diamond who worked for hard copy and she's one of the people who bust this case wide open to begin

01:17:50.320 with. Uh, she busted it up open because she was given back in the 93 timeframe, um, a police 0.72

01:17:56.720 report about him allegedly being a pedophile. And with the admonition she said from somebody

01:18:02.500 saying, this can't keep happening, as if there had been multiple reports to authorities of

01:18:10.100 Jackson being a pedophile. So she's been on this for a long time. And she wrote a postscript to,

01:18:17.600 she wrote a book in 2005, but then she updated it after that Neverland documentary, again,

01:18:22.620 in air quotes came out. And she wrote the following, a highly placed law enforcement

01:18:26.380 source, once revealed to me the results of a forensic deep dive into Jackson's financials.

01:18:30.720 The source said that that examination concluded that over the years leading up to the 2005

01:18:35.860 criminal trial, the entertainer had doled out about $200 million worth of gifts and

01:18:42.280 hush money to young boys and their families.

01:18:45.600 This astonishing figure you write appeared to be confirmed by attorneys representing

01:18:49.080 Wade Robson and James Safechuck, who of his accusers featured in that Finding Neverland

01:18:54.260 or leaving Neverland during civil litigation against the Jackson estate in 2015.

01:18:59.600 $200 million, if that's true, you say it's confirmed by attorneys representing these two

01:19:04.960 who would have had access to those kinds of numbers.

01:19:08.720 It also does dovetail with what LaToya said in her later retracted soundbite about her

01:19:15.360 mother showing her the checks that he'd written to multiple families, not just Jordy Chandler,

01:19:21.340 it sounded like. And it would explain his financial ruin because on the day he died,

01:19:26.940 the New York Times, The Daily just did a deep dive into this. On the day he died,

01:19:30.800 his estate was valued at zero given all the debt he was in and lack of income because these

01:19:38.000 allegations had taken their toll. Yes, absolutely. Now, I mean, we can't really,

01:19:43.480 of course, we can't completely verify the 200 million, but we know that at least 25 million

01:19:49.180 is accounted for because he paid the settlement to Jordan Chandler and also to Blanca Francia,

01:19:55.760 one of his former maids, who accused him of abusing her son, Jason Francia. He settled that

01:20:02.960 lawsuit for about $2 million, over $2 million in the mid-1990s. And, you know, the other thing is

01:20:11.600 that, you know, we all know how things work in Los Angeles. If you're a lawyer, you have fixers

01:20:17.500 who, you know, when a demand letter comes in from a potential plaintiff,

01:20:22.800 the fixers come around and they make it go away.

01:20:26.520 And if you have hundreds of millions of dollars,

01:20:29.140 you can make a whole lot of things go away before they even hit the airwaves.

01:20:33.500 And so it's not just the, you know, hush money payments and settlements and also gifts.

01:20:39.180 He bought a house for James Safechuck's family.

01:20:43.300 And, you know, he bought an incredible amount of expensive bling.

01:20:47.500 and incredibly expensive paintings and artworks.

01:20:51.840 Yeah, so he was broke at the end of his life.

01:20:53.980 And that's why after 2005, he was really broke.

01:20:59.580 He couldn't pay his lawyers anymore.

01:21:01.480 And that's when we almost had the pro-pedophile documentary

01:21:05.480 from the makers of RuPaul's Drag Race.

01:21:09.340 What?

01:21:10.460 Oh, this is, yeah, they had to cut it out of the articles

01:21:14.080 because the article was already too long.

01:21:16.320 But in 2000, in 19, okay, the guys who make RuPaul's Drag Race, they're called Barbato and Bailey, and they're now very famous.

01:21:26.340 They have a production company called World of Wonder Productions.

01:21:30.040 Now, in the late 1990s and early 2000s, they were making gay-themed schlockumentary, sort of like tasteless, over-the-top movies about, you know, a gay drug kid murderer called Party Monster.

01:21:45.500 And in 1996, World of Wonder Productions from RuPaul's Drag Race, they tried to option a book about Michael Jackson, which contained explicit descriptions of sex between Jackson and Geordie Chandler.

01:22:01.960 This book is called Michael Jackson Was My Lover, The Secret Diary of Geordie Chandler.

01:22:09.180 And the book was, it had private information from the Chandlers, like bank receipts and medical records, etc.

01:22:18.000 And so World of Wonder Productions, the RuPaul's Drag Race people, wanted to make it into a documentary about the loving romance between Michael Jackson and Geordie Chandler.

01:22:29.060 and in 2006 when jackson was yeah when jackson was broke they finally did get the rights to the

01:22:36.320 book they wrote four screenplays for this movie the movie was going to be called michael jackson

01:22:41.220 was my lover there's a 2006 article in british gq about this movie that was about to come out

01:22:48.540 they had raised four million dollars for a pro pedophile movie about the erotic romance

01:22:54.840 between Michael Jackson and Jordi Chandler.

01:22:58.300 This article is extremely hard to find.

01:23:01.680 I had to, you know, you have to really work hard to find it.

01:23:04.200 But I found it, and it's up on my YouTube channel now.

01:23:08.000 I have a video about it.

01:23:10.000 And so they were about to release in 2007.

01:23:13.360 And even Barbato and Bailey, the guys behind Royal to Wonder Productions,

01:23:18.420 they said, this shatters all expectations of what, you know, anybody can make.

01:23:24.180 This is completely outrageous. And that's why we had to go to Europe to get funding, because in America, the eek factor about a positive portrayal of pedophilia is so high.

01:23:36.540 So we had to go to Europe and they said they had raised four million dollars to make this movie.

01:23:42.560 Of course, it never came out, but it was about to.

01:23:46.900 A movie that portrayed Geordie Chandler and Michael Jackson as a sexual erotic couple who were deeply in love with each other without any hint of adverse judgment. 0.63

01:23:59.540 Oh, that is sick. That is unbelievable. 0.96

01:24:02.860 So that so RuPaul didn't make the movie, but he owned the company that was going to make the movie.

01:24:07.420 No, this is the company is owned by two guys in Hollywood. You know, they make a lot of LGBTQ gay themed content, Barbato and Bailey, and they own the company World of Wonder Productions. And that company now makes RuPaul's Drag Race.

01:24:26.900 If you go to the company's website, it says we're bringing the underground into the mainstream with uniqueness and extravagance.

01:24:36.380 So now they're very mainstream.

01:24:37.780 Back then, they were on the extreme cutting edge of what was tasteful.

01:24:42.280 I don't think they are mainstream.

01:24:43.360 I mean, honestly, I don't watch RuPaul's Drag Race, but I saw Kamala Harris went over there.

01:24:48.680 And we had done a segment two weeks before Kamala Harris went over there to launch, like it was one of her early campaign videos. 0.89

01:24:55.920 was showing some crazy trans person, like a man walking down the runway with fake breasts in it, 0.94

01:25:05.300 like bloody breasts in a bag around him with blood dripping down his chest, you know, fake blood. 0.99

01:25:10.480 It was so dark. So no, they really haven't cleaned up their act much. I mean, 0.97

01:25:14.780 you can't go lower than glorifying pedophilia, but okay. So, all right. I don't want to keep

01:25:20.180 you too much longer, but I do want to spend a couple minutes on the two names that we've

01:25:24.320 been mentioning over and over, which is Wade Robson and James Safechuck. Those are the two

01:25:29.660 men who are featured in the, again, air quotes documentary, Leaving Neverland. And that was in

01:25:36.520 2019 that revived this whole debate, you know, in a massive way about what he was and what he

01:25:44.260 wasn't, because these were without question two boys who, when they were young, 100% knew Michael

01:25:50.080 Jackson and spent a lot of time with Michael Jackson. One, I think it was Wade won a dance

01:25:55.520 contest. He was like a lookalike. And one, James Safechuck was in an advertisement with Michael

01:26:02.760 and did get to know him. And both of them testified at the trial in 2005 that Michael

01:26:10.820 Jackson never laid a hand on them. Because we had the witnesses coming in, like the extras saying,

01:26:15.600 like the maid's son, he molested me too. But we also had the character witnesses for Michael,

01:26:21.260 like these two, like Macaulay Culkin, who went to that 2005 trial and said,

01:26:25.180 he's never laid a hand on me. He's a very good guy. These are lies. But these two

01:26:30.720 have come out in that so-called documentary to say, I was lying. I was lying under oath then.

01:26:37.520 Macaulay Culkin, all these years, Emmanuel Lewis too, the kid who played Webster,

01:26:42.100 all these years, never, never laid a hand on me. I would tell you, like Macaulay Culkin has said,

01:26:49.460 like, it's kind of fashionable these days to say, like, you've been a victim of something.

01:26:54.620 He's like, trust me, if I had something to tell you, I would tell you never laid a hand on me.

01:26:59.820 So these two boys said the same, but then in 2019, cooperated with this filmmaker. And there

01:27:06.120 all sorts of credibility problems, especially with Robson, especially with Wade Robson.

01:27:12.900 What's your view on it, Andrew?

01:27:16.060 Yeah, and even after, so Wade Robson testified at the trial in 2005, said Michael never laid

01:27:21.260 a hand on me.

01:27:21.840 I think Safechuck gave a deposition or a statement, but didn't testify.

01:27:28.020 But certainly they both, over the years, over and over and over, said there was absolutely

01:27:32.380 nothing going on.

01:27:33.320 And even after the 2005 trial, they said there was absolutely nothing going on.

01:27:39.340 And Robson, especially, was in contact with Michael Jackson and was trying to sort of like work angles to build his showbiz career with Michael Jackson's help after 2005.

01:27:53.040 And he claims that he changed his view of Michael Jackson after he became a father.

01:28:00.620 That's what James Safechuck also says after he became a father, which, you know, that is sometimes a factor in cases like this.

01:28:08.620 But certainly, and they both sued Michael Jackson's estate and his companies in 2013 and 2014.

01:28:17.940 And they had to sue the estate and the companies because Michael Jackson was dead and the alleged abuse was long past the statute of limitations.

01:28:24.100 So the theory of their lawsuit was that Michael Jackson's companies had been negligent in failing to prevent Michael Jackson from abusing them.

01:28:35.160 And because the companies still exist and the estate still exists, that was the theory of the lawsuit.

01:28:39.960 It was an extreme stretch.

01:28:41.720 And the lawsuits were actually both dismissed.

01:28:44.080 You know, I believe that Wade Robson initially claimed something at $1.5 billion from Michael Jackson's estate and companies in his lawsuit because he claimed that the abuse had made him unable to launch his show business career, which otherwise would have been extremely successful.

01:29:02.960 So the lawsuits are a real stretch, and they are a money grab, and they were eventually dismissed.

01:29:10.820 now california has updated its laws and changed the statute of limitations so robson and safe

01:29:17.120 chuck's lawsuits have been revived and may now go to trial and so then you know they told their

01:29:22.980 story in 2019 in the you know documentary or the interview series uh and the thing is uh and the

01:29:32.060 you know it's not a documentary because it doesn't even attempt to provide any sort of balance uh in

01:29:38.140 that part, in that documentary. They're not cross-questioned. They don't go into the timeline.

01:29:44.320 They don't go into all the statements that they made supporting Michael Jackson over the years.

01:29:49.660 But, you know, when I watched it at the end of the documentary, I thought,

01:29:54.160 you know, these guys are, you know, they are flawed and they have questionable motives.

01:30:01.720 I'm not sure if I can completely trust them, but the pattern that they described was consistent

01:30:09.540 with the statements of many other accusers, and the details were consistent.

01:30:16.820 But all those had been public prior to 2013 and 2014, or 15, when they filed their lawsuits.

01:30:23.560 So they absolutely could, like the Jesus juice, you could study that.

01:30:28.720 You just go back and read Geordie Chandler's account, read the, I always forget the second

01:30:33.700 boy, Gavin's, read his account, you know, read the earlier accounts that were out there

01:30:39.140 and you could come up with a credible story.

01:30:41.320 I'm not saying it didn't happen to them.

01:30:42.700 I really don't know.

01:30:43.520 And I, I don't, I have no wish to traumatize little boys who were molested and then grew

01:30:49.300 up and found the courage to talk about it.

01:30:50.980 I'm just trying to be fair to Jackson, who's dead and unable to defend himself here and

01:30:57.220 pointing out you would be able to tell a credible story because the earlier allegations were not

01:31:02.740 under seal. You could steal heavily from them and craft a story. And these two, I mean, apparently

01:31:08.960 Wade Robson at Michael's 2005 trial was a star. He wasn't just a witness. He was a star. And

01:31:17.280 the prosecutor really tried to rattle him and get him to admit he did get molested, that Michael

01:31:26.400 wasn't this upstanding, you know, never touch a child figure. And he was unrattable in a way.

01:31:32.920 It's been very hard for some people to believe a little boy would have been capable of, you know,

01:31:38.100 that they believe the under oath testimony where he said nothing happened and they don't believe

01:31:42.080 the current Wade Robson, who didn't make these allegations until he thought he was going to be

01:31:48.660 cast as the choreographer of the Cirque du Soleil, Michael Jackson show. And he wasn't.

01:31:53.920 um he wrote a book about his alleged experiences with michael and he reportedly lied about having

01:32:02.040 done that when asked if he had written anything under deposition in a civil case he lied and said

01:32:07.080 no and it turned out he had and they i'm told this is my own reporting that they actually wound up

01:32:14.040 getting the metadata on that book by going to some of the publishing houses who had received

01:32:20.780 electronic submissions. And, um, it showed inconsistent testimonials from him, like his

01:32:28.440 story, even in the old drafts of his book on what happened to him changed dramatically from version

01:32:34.940 to version, which is very devastating. You know, it's like, what do you mean? The abuse is the

01:32:39.960 abuse. Like why would it be changing from version to version? Um, and he needed money, you know,

01:32:46.880 so there's a bunch of things with Wade Robson.

01:32:50.380 I'll go into it in another episode in more detail because I do know a lot

01:32:53.900 about these two in particular.

01:32:56.020 And save Chuck.

01:32:57.660 We talked about this a couple of weeks ago,

01:32:59.720 but he also needed money was facing some legal,

01:33:03.780 some litigation.

01:33:06.380 And when he filed his claim and also on top of that alleged that he was

01:33:10.280 abused by Michael Jackson through 1994,

01:33:14.020 sorry,

01:33:14.660 sorry, that it ended in 1991 or two, the abuse of him. And he claimed that it happened repeatedly

01:33:20.800 in this train station on Neverland, like a fun Disneyland type train station. And after that

01:33:27.320 so-called documentary came out, it was revealed that that train station wasn't even built until

01:33:33.860 1994. The application for the permit is public and it was not filed in 93 and it's public record

01:33:40.220 that that train station didn't go up until 94. So there's no way James Safechuck was abused in that

01:33:45.880 in 1991. No way. And the filmmaker who, you know, put him out there with that story said,

01:33:53.280 oh, well, his date of the abuse must be wrong. It must have ended later than he thought.

01:33:59.300 Well, that's not how his documentary presented it. And Safechuck hasn't explained that

01:34:04.680 three-year difference when he said in 91, or it might have been two, but the reason it stopped

01:34:10.280 was he had aged out. He's got, you know, a pedophile, as I've been trying to tell the 0.91

01:34:16.080 audience for months now and related and unrelated stories, a pedophile is somebody who is attracted 0.89

01:34:21.900 to prepubescent children. Prior to 13 is what the literature says, prepubescent. And all these kids

01:34:33.340 have alleged that they did age out. They aged out of his attraction. And this is safe. Chuck

01:34:39.020 said that as well. And if, if it really were going on into 94, into that timeframe, he would

01:34:45.860 have been, I think 16, which is aged out by his own description. And on top of that, Michael

01:34:52.520 Jackson, by that point was spending his time in New York, not at Neverland. So again, under,

01:34:58.460 I don't know whether these guys are telling the truth or not. All I know is they too have serious

01:35:02.480 credibility problems, which are coming as news to most viewers who haven't been tracking the

01:35:08.540 coverage really carefully, that looks critically at some of the allegations. That's wrong. You

01:35:13.900 were meant to walk away from leaving Neverland thinking, I believe them. The whole thing was

01:35:19.840 crafted to drive you to that belief, as opposed to just presenting a fair both sides case from

01:35:28.900 which you could walk away with an educated opinion yeah and in fact dan reed the director he just

01:35:34.740 released in late 2025 a follow-up um i it's also has neverland in the title and i watched that and

01:35:43.420 that is a much much more conventional and totally unconvincing follow-up documentary like traces

01:35:50.200 how these lawsuits proceeded and in that documentary you know we see robson and safe chuck

01:35:55.820 you know with their families and they complain about how terribly traumatized they are but

01:36:00.840 most of the new documentary is you know sort of sleazy hollywood lawyers explaining how they were

01:36:08.800 trying to maneuver the lawsuits against michael jackson's estate and so you see the lawyers i

01:36:14.800 don't want to call them sleazy but you know they're kind of you know they're very lawyer-y in the way

01:36:18.880 they oh my god this this and this yeah and it you know it makes it it really yeah very slick

01:36:24.920 and very unconvincing and you also see that their lawsuits initially went nowhere because the legal

01:36:31.020 theory was basically invented and and then in this documentary at least dan reed the director

01:36:37.980 does give some time to the other side to people who defend jackson and dispute grobson and safe

01:36:44.460 Chuck's claims. I mean, after he completely poisoned everybody in 2019 with his original

01:36:49.900 piece, it's like, okay, great. And it's no accident to me that these guys didn't come

01:36:54.400 out until after Michael was dead. And the same with the Casios, those four children who are,

01:37:01.360 that story is so bizarre. They're like three sons and a daughter of a guy who worked at the

01:37:06.740 Helmsley Hotel in New York that Michael Jackson would swing through. And their dad was a hotel

01:37:12.040 worker. And somehow he connected Michael with his children. And before they knew it, he was

01:37:16.680 regularly visiting them in their New Jersey, very modest home. And Michael Jackson moved in with the

01:37:24.220 family for three months after 9-11. Who's, wait, Michael Jackson's on the couch. Michael Jackson's

01:37:30.560 living with us back at our house. Okay. I'm like, the kids in school must have been.

01:37:34.420 He's done that before. Yeah. He did that with Wade Robson. He moved in with, I mean,

01:37:40.020 he moved into Geordie Chandler's house and Michael Jackson would, like when Geordie Chandler was

01:37:45.900 going to school, Michael Jackson would show up at the house at like, you know, 5 p.m. after Geordie

01:37:51.980 came home from school, sleep in the same bedroom with Geordie Chandler. And then in the morning,

01:37:57.200 Michael Jackson would leave while Geordie Chandler was at school. And then when Geordie

01:38:01.300 Chandler would come back, Michael Jackson would come and stay and sleep in the same bed with

01:38:06.000 Jordy Chandler. That went on for at least a week. And it also went on with the Robsons. I mean,

01:38:11.860 actually, the Safe Chucks. The Safe Chucks also report, and there's evidence to back this up from

01:38:17.160 like chauffeurs and documents, that first of all, he bought them a house. And he also lived there

01:38:23.300 for a long while. He called the Casios his second family back in 1992, and lived with them on and

01:38:31.300 off for various times. Now, I also have a lot of doubts about the Casio allegations, because first

01:38:37.260 of all, they've already been paid off. They received a settlement of $16 million in 2020.

01:38:42.940 And now the money's run out. And now they're saying Michael Jackson abused them all publicly

01:38:48.500 for the first time. Exactly. Same thing. So and they all along had been defending him saying,

01:38:54.460 never, never, never. But now Michael's dead. Then they said that the Leaving Neverland

01:39:00.100 documentary in 19 led to an aha moment where one was like, I've got to tell my siblings I really

01:39:06.680 was molested. And then all the others are like, me too, including the girl. She's the only girl

01:39:12.380 to ever come forward and say that she's been molested, as far as I know. Like, I'm not sure

01:39:17.500 that tracks. There's one more. There's another girl? There's one more. Yeah, she's called Jane

01:39:22.940 Doe. And she claims that she's never been, she didn't sue, and her identity is not known.

01:39:31.020 She claims Michael Jackson abused her in the late 1980s and early 1990s. And the only reason there

01:39:36.840 is anything to this story is that, you know, she provided checks of, you know, hundreds of

01:39:42.820 thousands of dollars that Michael Jackson had made out to her, which apparently are authentic.

01:39:48.220 But that doesn't prove anything about her claims or allegations, and there's no other corroboration.

01:39:54.840 I mean, I'm interested in it because if you didn't sue, then it's good.

01:39:59.420 But why is he giving her big checks?

01:40:00.800 I mean, like, she must have threatened a lawsuit.

01:40:02.920 Otherwise, he wouldn't have been writing those.

01:40:04.900 But, okay, so in any event, so this family now suddenly after he's dead and the gravy train is getting back on track.

01:40:14.160 because right around that time we were seeing the Cirque du Soleil and the Broadway musical

01:40:19.300 was launched, which actually turned out to be a hit. Like everything related to Michael Jackson,

01:40:24.600 the Cirque du Soleil was a hit. The Broadway show was a hit. The movie was a hit. The music

01:40:28.900 is coming back. There is a very, very strong appetite for Michael material and they realized

01:40:36.160 it. And suddenly they've had an epiphany. I don't think their lives are going that great.

01:40:40.760 They didn't look like they were living large.

01:40:43.260 And, you know, they're like, what could it hurt?

01:40:45.260 That's my own assessment about them.

01:40:47.780 Could be wrong.

01:40:49.260 I don't know.

01:40:49.980 But that was it.

01:40:50.620 They're awfully late to the story.

01:40:52.800 Okay, I want to finish with where you finished in the piece because I thought it was very well done.

01:40:57.100 You know, you spent a couple of good pages on, like, what is a pedophile?

01:41:02.180 What do pedophiles do?

01:41:03.680 And like in general, if you, if you zoom out, does Michael Jackson's behavior that we know he did

01:41:10.820 match? And, um, you write about something called the preferential pedophile and you write that

01:41:19.660 preferential pedophile. Okay. So, well, first you say this, uh, citing a book from 2010,

01:41:25.240 uh, study child molesters, a behavioral analysis. You say preferential child molesters

01:41:31.540 typically proceed by seducing their child target,

01:41:35.780 much in the same way that adults seduce one another.

01:41:38.820 They tend to focus on attention-starved children

01:41:40.820 from broken or dysfunctional homes.

01:41:43.580 At first, the pedophile wins over the child's parent or parents

01:41:47.240 by offering them support, advice, services, or gifts,

01:41:49.860 and showering them with praise.

01:41:51.480 You mentioned he bought some houses. 0.95

01:41:53.620 Once the parent's guard is down, the pedophile,

01:41:55.480 or maybe Cartier bracelets.

01:41:57.720 Once the parent's guard is down,

01:41:59.160 the pedophile turns his attentions to the child.

01:42:01.540 Spending time on things adults and children can do together without arousing suspicion,

01:42:06.940 such as visiting an amusement park or a sporting event, playing games with them,

01:42:13.320 giving them gifts, and smothering them with attention and praise.

01:42:16.420 I mean, it's just when you think about the Neverland Ranch through this lens,

01:42:20.080 it feels plain as the nose on your face.

01:42:23.580 Preferential pedophiles are often noted to be very good with children,

01:42:27.920 able to talk to them easily and understand their worldview,

01:42:30.200 perhaps even better than their parents. Their homes will often feature interests or items of

01:42:35.280 interest to children, such as game consoles, toys, puppets, or figurines. What did we hear in the

01:42:40.580 movie, Michael? You know, we talked, saw his room with all the stuffed animals and brings the

01:42:45.220 Twister game home. And we've heard from Mark Garagos that he had a two story arcade at the

01:42:51.660 Neverland Ranch. That was like, you know, something out of the eighties where, you know, we all used

01:42:56.520 to go and hang out and play Space Invaders. The kids loved it, not to mention the Ferris wheel

01:43:03.280 and the rides on his front lawn and the trains and so on. So game consoles, toys, puppets,

01:43:09.860 figurines, pedophiles, writes Lanning, the author of that study, often refer to children using words

01:43:15.820 like clean, pure, innocent, or impish. The homes of some pedophiles, writes Lanning,

01:43:21.460 have been described as shrines to children or as miniature amusement parks. After the pedophile

01:43:29.280 has created a situation in which he and the target child can spend time alone, he must convince the

01:43:34.220 child to keep secrets. To this end, the pedophile often encourages the child to engage in naughty

01:43:39.520 behavior such as smoking, drinking, cursing, or viewing pornography. My God. This creates a bond

01:43:47.300 of shame and secrecy. Some pedophiles resort to outright threats or violence, but that is rarely

01:43:53.080 the case with those who follow a seduction model. I mean, Andrew, this is like, I don't,

01:44:03.340 it's like 10, we're 10 for 10 here on the matchups. And that's, you know, it's that the

01:44:10.420 author of that, that I relied on among others is Kenneth Lanning, who was a child sexual abuse

01:44:16.900 specialist for the FBI for decades and, you know, participated in thousands of cases and interviewed

01:44:22.580 thousands of pedophiles. And the behavior pattern just fits so closely. You know, Neverland was an

01:44:29.440 amusement park. If you look at the faxes that Michael Jackson sent to Wade Robson, it's love

01:44:34.500 bombing. You know, Michael Jackson spent, you know, five or six hours on the telephone to young boys

01:44:41.480 just talking about how wonderful his ranch was and everyone he met on the tour and the great

01:44:47.140 things they were going to do together. And Michael Jackson, even, you know, he refers to you share

01:44:53.740 your bed with somebody. It's the cleanest, purest, sweet, innocent thing to do. Because pedophiles,

01:45:00.080 they don't think that what they're doing is wrong. They believe that they are showing love

01:45:06.960 to another human being and helping a young boy blossom and they're providing him with or her

01:45:15.160 you know with attention and advice and material assistance and occasionally they have a little

01:45:21.740 play doctor session which both of them enjoy that is that the and as Lanning says the first

01:45:30.920 time they're accused, pedophiles always, always deny. They say, of course not. I would never do

01:45:37.600 something like that. And then only when they're confronted with the evidence, you know, with the

01:45:42.340 hard drive full of pictures or, you know, surveillance photos, then they say, okay, well,

01:45:48.580 maybe we did that. But, you know, I understand this kid, this kid comes from a broken home.

01:45:54.060 He had nothing going for him. His parents were abusive and neglectful. And I provided him with

01:46:00.160 love and attention and gifts. And that's supposed to be wrong. That's supposed to be immoral.

01:46:07.600 Who else is going to take care of this little kid? So to clarify, in the mind of a pedophile 0.80

01:46:12.980 like this, this preferential pedophile, because I guess there's another type that's like, 0.93

01:46:18.060 I don't know, whatever. But for purposes of our discussion, that's what we think Michael might

01:46:21.240 have been. That person genuinely doesn't think he's doing anything wrong. He recognizes society

01:46:27.940 he has a judgment on it. But in his mind, he genuinely is like, this is okay. He's not like,

01:46:35.200 this is so wrong, but I'm going to do it anyway. Yeah, that's the pattern. It's also the pattern

01:46:41.000 in that weird book I was talking about that almost got made into a movie. The book about

01:46:45.540 Michael Jackson containing this explicit description of sex with Jordi Chandler was

01:46:49.700 positive toward that relationship. And when you ask pedophiles, the smarter, many of them are 0.69

01:46:56.300 very intelligent and very social and educated and they'll say you know look at ancient greece

01:47:01.660 it was always accepted then look at oscar wilde so they have historical parallels to it and they

01:47:09.340 believe that it's just some people have a natural preference for members of the opposite sex or

01:47:15.280 members of their own sex and some people have a natural preference for children and some children

01:47:20.880 And this is the sinister thing. As I pointed out, that movie in 2007 that almost got made from people behind RuPaul's Drag Race, that movie was going to portray Geordi Chandler as the initiator of this sexual relationship with Michael Jackson.

01:47:39.160 that was going to portray him as wanting to have sex with Michael Jackson as being a young gay boy

01:47:46.040 who was absolutely floored by his idol and now had the chance to become intimate and erotic 0.99

01:47:53.040 with his idol and took it. So he's the one who seduced Michael Jackson. That was going to be

01:47:59.640 the theme of the movie, as far as we know, according to the reports. And that's what

01:48:05.000 pedophiles also say. A big question for a lot of us, you know, covering the news these days,

01:48:11.700 do we have any idea how widespread this is? Do we have any idea like, you know, they say,

01:48:16.820 who knows if this is true, but they say like one in every four person is a sociopath.

01:48:20.600 Do we have any idea like how widespread pedophilia is? Or it's just, there's just no way of knowing

01:48:25.720 because the vast majority of them understand this needs to remain underground or they will

01:48:31.420 lose their freedom and possibly worse. Sure. And I mean, the prevalence, it's very low. It's

01:48:37.600 probably well under 1%. Thank goodness. And the one thing that, you know, if Kenneth Lanning,

01:48:43.640 the FBI guy and other researchers were here right now, what they would say is if you're thinking of

01:48:49.600 pedophiles as a weird, nasty guy at the park in a dirty overcoat or something like that,

01:48:55.460 that's completely wrong. The people who are convicted of child molestation, first of all, 0.93

01:48:59.780 Half of them are married. Only a quarter of them have any kind of hardcore child pornography.

01:49:05.440 And the vast majority are in positions of authority and respect where they can have

01:49:11.020 contact with children, like in churches, schools, and youth groups. And so don't look for pedophiles

01:49:17.360 at the park or in a dark alley. Look for them as being like weird, older men who have a very

01:49:26.420 unusual interest in children who get along with them really well and who show them a lot more

01:49:32.860 attention than most males do and who are in a position to get access to children in like a

01:49:39.640 school or a church or a Boy Scout group. Those are the people who are most likely to be pedophiles.

01:49:46.500 So at the end of the three months and the article, and I know these things go through so many drafts

01:49:52.280 so much editing so you are you've become deeply familiar with this subject matter at this point

01:49:57.320 what's your what's your judgment what's your takeaway on michael jackson i think michael

01:50:03.400 jackson was a pedophile which doesn't necessarily mean he was a child molester but i think that you

01:50:09.160 know looking at the forest and not the trees so the trees are all the individual accusers all the 0.92

01:50:16.600 the rumors, speculation, gossip, and all of that. But when you look at the forest, there is a

01:50:22.160 consistent pattern of him seeking out inappropriate contact with young boys and engaging in clear

01:50:29.700 grooming behavior with young boys. And there are numerous accusations of him moving on. It's,

01:50:37.080 you know, and also pedophiles don't just randomly go after every child they meet. And Michael

01:50:43.500 Jackson loved children, and he also, you know, treated young girls very well and took them to

01:50:49.380 Neverland and, you know, formed friendships with them too. He loved children, and he was in many

01:50:55.260 ways an extremely decent, kind person and a humanitarian. But when he saw a certain kind

01:51:02.920 of beautiful young boy that he was deeply attracted to, that's when he went into manipulative

01:51:10.060 grooming mode. And after, you know, a long selection process determining how close he could

01:51:16.960 get, how many red lines he could cross, how much the child would be willing to tolerate in an

01:51:23.580 unknown number of cases, I believe he did cross that line and sexually abuse children, not in a

01:51:30.460 violent way. The distinction you're making between you believe he was a pedophile and maybe not a

01:51:36.880 child molester but you believe yes is that you could be a pedophile without acting on it you're

01:51:41.240 saying yeah they call themselves virtuous pedophiles and so there there are support groups for it's

01:51:48.440 almost always men of course who who are attracted to children and who have committed to never acting

01:51:54.500 on it because they know it's wrong and it's immoral and it's harmful and uh and they call

01:52:00.320 themselves virtuous and i know i have to hand them credit if if they don't act on it then

01:52:06.120 nobody is harmed. And, you know, I think that's what Michael Jackson should have done. He should

01:52:11.420 have gotten help, tried to redirect his impulses. And if he couldn't redirect them to, you know,

01:52:17.540 maybe young 18-year-old men, you know, which is, you know, what they call twinks in the gay 1.00

01:52:24.460 community. I'm not gay, but, you know, I know the term. You know, if he couldn't do that, then he

01:52:29.200 had a moral responsibility to not act on those desires. And I believe he did.

01:52:35.320 We did talk about before, there's tape of Michael Jackson talking about how Joe Jackson, who is

01:52:41.420 without a question, abusive of his children. But I don't know about sexually abusive,

01:52:47.700 but physically abusive. But there is tape of Michael Jackson saying that his father,

01:52:51.880 before the beatings, used to make him get naked and used to rub oil all over Michael before he

01:52:58.360 beat him with the cord of an iron. Now that's just bizarre. I mean, it's just, I I've never

01:53:03.500 heard of the most abusive dads we've, we've heard of in the news, forcing a child to get naked and

01:53:09.800 oiling him up. So that's strange. That's definitely strange. And, you know, sometimes with child

01:53:17.520 abuse, sexual abuse, it can perpetuate itself. Like if it was done to you, there seems to be

01:53:22.560 a higher likelihood that you're going to do it to somebody else. Um, there's no allegation that

01:53:26.200 he beat any children, but I mean the possibility of sexual abuse unconfirmed, but it was something

01:53:31.560 that was really jarring to listen to. Joe Jackson was not a good man. And it seems like the entire

01:53:37.260 family admits that because they're all behind this movie and he's portrayed terribly in it.

01:53:42.020 So clearly everyone, including Catherine Jackson, who's Joe Jackson's wife and Michael's mom, 0.97

01:53:46.520 who's still alive, she was fine with him being portrayed as a complete abusive bastard too. 0.94

01:53:51.260 So like, this is not a good person if we're looking for the wise. 0.98

01:53:54.740 And look how Michael died.

01:53:56.380 You know, look, look how he died.

01:53:58.540 Like he was, he became a drug addict long before he actually died.

01:54:02.800 Now he'd been through a lot.

01:54:04.000 You know, he's got that terrible burn.

01:54:05.720 He'd been, you know, dragged through the criminal courts.

01:54:08.520 And if you were innocent, that would really stress you.

01:54:10.740 But like, you have to wonder what was haunting him so badly that he needed propofol to get

01:54:17.600 any rest at night, to fall asleep at night.

01:54:20.140 like what kind of demons were in there. Um, and I'm not sure we'll ever have a definitive answer,

01:54:29.280 you know, without like a videotape or a photo, we're, we're going to be left to figure it out

01:54:33.560 ourselves. And then the next question, as I said, to then ask ourselves whether it matters when it

01:54:39.640 comes to our ability to enjoy the art as opposed to the artist. Um, I don't know, have you thought

01:54:44.460 about that, Andrew, as somebody who's been like neck deep in this, are you able to like enjoy a

01:54:49.280 Michael Jackson song or watch the movie and admire the dancing? Yeah, I watched the movie and I

01:54:56.040 really enjoyed it. I mean, it's not something deep or profound, but it's fantastic entertainment.

01:55:01.500 Michael Jackson was an absolute musical genius. And, you know, he had a lot. He was also an

01:55:07.900 incredible humanitarian who gave millions and millions to charity. And the music is fantastic.

01:55:14.120 You know, I think of it as, you know, do you like the music of the Rolling Stones? 0.91

01:55:18.920 Well, the Rolling Stones had sex with 13-year-old groupies all through the 1970s. 0.97

01:55:25.940 You know, Roman Polanski is a great director, and he also raped a 13-year-old girl in 1977 and probably did more than that. 0.96

01:55:33.400 Jerry Lee Lewis. 0.83

01:55:35.300 Jerry Lee Lewis.

01:55:36.540 I mean, the list goes on and on.

01:55:38.300 Wasn't it the girl he married 13?

01:55:41.560 Yeah, exactly.

01:55:42.400 And that was a huge scandal back then. It was technically legal. And, you know, if you look at contemporary artists, Picasso was a bastard. And all through history, you know, Leonardo da Vinci was a pedophile and a pederast in his time.

01:55:58.900 And so I think you can enjoy the art, you can enjoy the music, but always with an asterisk. And the asterisk must mean that no matter how rich you are, no matter how gifted, no matter how famous, if you abuse your intelligence and gifts to exploit children, then that must always be a part of your legacy. It must always be mentioned. And anything that doesn't mention it is a whitewash and dishonest.

01:56:27.380 totally fair i love the way you said that and i completely agree with you

01:56:32.380 andrew hamill thank you so much for writing this piece again um it's at quillette if you google it

01:56:38.660 um you'll find it but the name is never neverland the new michael jackson biopic and the campaign

01:56:46.080 to whitewash the king of pop's reputation by andrew hamill h-a-m-m-e-l thank you thank you

01:56:53.120 This is an important conversation.

01:56:54.740 We really appreciate it.

01:56:56.180 You're very welcome.

01:56:56.940 I really enjoyed it.

01:56:58.340 All the best to you.

01:56:59.740 Thanks.

01:57:01.000 Wow.

01:57:02.300 Wow.

01:57:03.920 Gosh, I'm like, I couldn't stop reading the piece.

01:57:07.400 I sent it to so many people because there's even more detail in the piece if you read it, which maybe you will now.

01:57:13.920 I first listened to the audio.

01:57:15.880 You know, I love my audio news.

01:57:17.220 And then I printed it out because I was like, I know I need to lay eyes on this piece and actually read it, which I did multiple times.

01:57:23.120 Well worth your time, because there's even more details in there, and it's well written, too.

01:57:28.140 I'd love to know your thoughts, because I feel like you guys have been through this with me now.

01:57:31.380 We've done several in-depth looks at this, and at some point, I will do the deeper dive into

01:57:37.840 Wade Robson and James Safechuck with you, because I do know a lot about those two.

01:57:42.220 What do you think? What do you think? Those two questions. Was he, and does it matter to you

01:57:49.240 when it comes to your ability to enjoy the art?

01:57:52.960 I mean, I know it matters to you,

01:57:54.280 but like, does it matter to you

01:57:55.280 when it comes to the ability to enjoy his songs,

01:57:57.240 his dancing, this movie,

01:57:58.800 the rehabilitation that's underway of his image?

01:58:02.080 What do you think about it?

01:58:03.220 Email me, it's megan, M-E-G-Y-N, at megankelly.com.

01:58:07.440 Back live with you all on Friday.

01:58:09.640 See you then.

01:58:11.120 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show.

01:58:13.060 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

01:58:19.240 Thank you.

The Megyn Kelly Show - May 28, 2026

The DEFINITIVE Deep Dive on Every Michael Jackson Allegation From 1993, 2003, and 2013, with Andrew Hammel ｜ Ep. 1327

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