00:00:49.300We are, of course, talking about Tim's taste of the Globe Liner.
00:00:52.180New globally inspired Timbits and ice cap flavors
00:00:54.580available at Tim Hortons for a limited time.
00:00:56.540picks them up today, and while you're at it, check out Footy Prime Daily.
00:01:00.480Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM channel 111 every weekday at New East.
00:01:12.180Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. We are in day four of the
00:01:17.120Tyler Robinson preliminary hearing. It's happening right now, the man accused of murdering our friend
00:01:22.900Charlie Kirk with the most anticipated moment of the entire week expected any moment now that is
00:01:28.840the recorded interview between prosecutors and Lance Twiggs, the alleged trans furry lover and
00:01:36.260roommate of Tyler Robinson. This has been a major point of contention between the prosecution and
00:01:42.060the defense. They have spent hours arguing over what would be played, how much of it and how much
00:01:48.380the public will get to see. The lawyer for Erica Kirk and her family has even now gotten involved
00:01:55.940filing this document demanding that they be able to see and hear what the court is going to see
00:02:03.780and hear. There's some restriction on what they're going to put out to the media, but Charlie's widow
00:02:09.900would like to know what the evidence is in her husband's murder case. It is ridiculous how weak
00:02:16.780this judge has been. He was only put on the bench last May. You can tell he's not confident.
00:02:25.720He is overly indulgent of the defense's objections, whereas a seasoned jurist would
00:02:31.420have dismissed most of them out of hand. Noted, overruled, let's move on. He takes every single
00:02:37.600objection as seriously as if the US Supreme Court is going to weigh in on every single one.
00:02:44.200He doesn't have the confidence to put the ones that are serious and actually could get him in this trial in trouble in one category and the ones that are obviously perfunctory and meant just to preserve a record in a different category.
00:02:56.920And it's delaying this proceeding interminably.
00:03:01.040And by the way, he is treating the Kirk family like they are bystanders there with absolutely no stake in this thing.
00:03:09.940So they've filed this motion saying under Utah law, the crime victims families have a right. We have a literally we have a literal right under Utah law to be informed of, to be present at and to be heard at important criminal justice hearings related to the victim.
00:03:29.100And they say that that is no that right is toothless if we're not allowed to see the evidence. How can we be excluded from the people who can see the evidence? The right to be present is hollow, they write, if the victim or his representative is physically in the room but is prevented from seeing the evidence the court is receiving.
00:03:49.400A right to attend that does not include the ability to perceive what is happening is not meaningful presence at all.
00:03:57.340Consistent with statutory command that victims' rights be protected no less vigorously than the defendants, the victim's family's presence must be a real one.
00:04:07.120The ability to observe in real time the evidence presented in the courtroom they are entitled to occupy.
00:04:13.720This judge is taking it under advisement.
00:04:17.260OK, right now at 12.03 Eastern Time, they are still haggling over which lines from the Lance Twig testimony will be removed from the public's hearing.
00:04:29.280We're not we're not going to see the video. The defense won that objection. Why? Because they show him certain exhibits that makes no sense that they're not in evidence yet.
00:04:39.120Okay, you could redact the video for those portions. Why don't we get any video? It's absurd. It makes no sense. It's a preliminary hearing. You can have a witness take the stand and look at non-introduced exhibits.
00:04:52.740And by the way, now the defense, our friend Brian Enten is saying, oh, many lawyers are objection are saying that that that this is somehow a fatal flaw, potentially that that Lance Twiggs wasn't cross-examined in this video and won't be able to be cross-examined.
00:05:08.200That's not true. Witnesses, you're not entitled to cross-examination at a preliminary hearing.
00:05:13.680That's not something that you necessarily get. That's not going to clear this deal.
00:05:17.640Well, there's the prosecution is not doing anything wrong and the judge is treating them like they're trying to pull a fast one here, indulging every every single banal baseless objection by the team representing the defendant that they make.
00:05:34.960it's just maddening. So as they rail over each word that we will or will not be able to hear
00:05:42.940in the audio-only portion of Lance Twiggs' testimony, we are going to do a deep dive for
00:05:49.300you on Lance Twiggs, the man at the center of this hearing today. So we're going to get you
00:05:56.960up to speed on him, and then as they bring us his testimony, we'll take that in real time.
00:06:01.740In September, a popular YouTuber by the name of Tom Swanson, who's known as Turkey Tom,
00:06:10.360that's his moniker, at the platform, dropped a bombshell report about Lance Twigs and Tyler
00:06:15.900Robinson. Swanson claims that a friend of Robinson's and Twigs reached out to him,
00:06:22.980providing him with new details about their relationship, what life was like inside their
00:06:27.280apartment and the events leading up to the shooting. First, some background on Tom Swanson.
00:06:32.620He's very popular on YouTube. He has over 1.5 million subscribers. He puts out long form
00:06:37.500documentary style videos about online controversies, mostly to do with Internet and gaming culture.
00:06:43.600And that is clearly how this person found him. In September, he covered Charlie's murder in a
00:06:49.84040 minute video that he posted to YouTube. Watch who was actually behind the assassination a whole
00:06:56.300day and a half after the shooting, on the evening of the 11th, the pictures of the killer in a cap
00:07:01.040and dark glasses were released. One of Tyler's friends, who was in the same Discord server with
00:07:05.800about 18 other people, sent the picture to their chat, jokingly remarking that it looked like
00:07:10.480Tyler and asking him where he was at. Tyler responded saying that his doppelganger did it,
00:07:15.860to which someone else sarcastically replied, Tyler killed Charlie. Clearly, the mere concept
00:07:21.140of Tyler doing such a thing was something his acquaintances wouldn't even consider. He was a
00:07:26.160seemingly intelligent guy, as his mother proudly bragged on Facebook about his 4.0 GPA. He was a
00:07:32.180mild-mannered endorsement who gamed a lot. And although he wasn't a Republican like the rest
00:07:36.740of his family, he also wasn't even registered to vote and didn't express his opinions that much.
00:07:42.900Swanson says after that, someone familiar with both Robinson and Twiggs reached out to him.
00:07:47.920This person wanted to remain anonymous, he says, but says that they have been friends
00:07:51.680with Robinson and Twiggs for six years and that this source, this friend, counted them as close
00:07:57.460friends of his. Swanson says this person provided Swanson with a multitude of information to verify
00:08:02.780this person's identity. They also provided photos from inside Twiggs and Robinson's apartment,
00:08:10.520drawings allegedly made by Lance Twiggs, and Discord archives of three servers that this
00:08:16.340person claims that he was in, along with Twiggs and Robinson. Swanson says, to his knowledge,
00:08:22.540the only other people who have the Discord servers outside of the people who were in them
00:08:26.760is the FBI. Now, we reached out to Swanson, and he stood by his story. So to be clear,
00:08:34.140this is Swanson's reporting. We have not independently verified the messages
00:08:37.540sent by the anonymous friend. We did reach out to the FBI, who told us they do not comment
00:08:42.660on ongoing investigations. The Swanson report was picked up by various outlets online, but others
00:08:49.020questioned it, some specifically wondering whether Swanson was being used by someone,
00:08:54.100possibly the government, to spread information they wanted into the public domain. Fair question.
00:09:01.020We have no way of verifying or dismissing those suspicions, but since the court has decided to
00:09:06.340allow such secrecy around the Twigs video, we decided to err on the side of more disclosure
00:09:11.920and let viewers decide of what value this is.
00:09:16.880Twigs has refused to speak with the media, including us.
00:09:20.020The Daily Mail reports that he and his family have now moved to Texas,
00:09:26.600where the mail caught up with Twigs en route to or from a Taco Bell,
00:09:30.900and they report that he refused to speak with them.
00:09:33.860Swanson, meantime, said he did reach out to Twigs after getting this report from the alleged friend
00:09:39.000and reports that Twiggs told him he could not say anything due to the ongoing investigations.
00:09:44.600The Megyn Kelly Show also attempted to connect with Lance Twiggs and with Swanson's source,
00:09:49.440but we received no response. A family member of Lance Twiggs did speak with Brian Enten of News
00:09:56.920Nation back in January. Here is what she said just to set this up about Twiggs and Robinson
00:10:03.180and those now infamous texts that allegedly were exchanged right after the shooting.
00:10:09.000there's text messages between tyler and lance um where they're texting after the event a lot
00:10:16.920of people find them unusual the world that they were in like this gaming world like that was a
00:10:24.360normal way that they kind of spoke that this wasn't an abnormal the way they spoke wasn't
00:10:30.980abnormal the fbi has said all along that twigs is cooperating with the authorities first we'll
00:10:37.920start with what this anonymous friend said about Lance Twiggs. We did not censor or redact these
00:10:43.740texts. Swanson said he did censor parts of the texts in order to keep his sources identity
00:10:49.320private. The friend was a wealth of information. For example, he told Swanson that Robinson and
00:10:55.500Twiggs apartment would, quote, drastically shift from clean to super dirty, depending on the state
00:11:01.080of Lance's mood. He said they would have friends over, but everyone would kind of get weirded out
00:11:06.620by all the trash. The friend said twigs basically had layers of wires, random Timu trinkets,
00:11:14.240decorations, random art projects, clothes, and empty alcohol containers everywhere. And if anyone
00:11:20.100touched it, he'd get livid. The friend provided this photo, allegedly from inside the apartment.
00:11:26.360He said twigs would have piles and piles of random messes like this all over the home,
00:11:31.180but usually it was much worse than what you see in this photo.
00:11:36.020For the listening audience, it's a long table like you might set up at a Thanksgiving dinner
00:11:40.700with just wires and electronics and a mess all over it.
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00:27:26.480agency. So Matt Murphy, what do you make of the, well, the profile that emerges from that lengthy
00:27:34.600report and also what we're about to hear in court and the nonstop haggling by Judge Ito.
00:27:43.520Sorry, Garagos. Go ahead, Matt. Well, I see this kind of in the long in the long form,
00:27:51.860Megan. I always appreciated careful judges. And I'm going to go a little against the grain here.
00:27:57.080um this is there's a famous quote um it was a supreme court justice i don't remember his name
00:28:05.120but somebody said it seems like all you do in the supreme court is you split hairs
00:28:08.460and he said yeah that's what we do we split hairs we distinguish the indistinguishable
00:28:13.580and we chop logic and that's what we do these rulings are are all about the long game every
00:28:21.280single one of these things is going to go up and receive the highest level of appellate scrutiny
00:28:25.640And again, this is just a preliminary hearing. If I had a nickel for every time I've seen Charlie Kirk trial on the Internet right now, this is just a prelim. All it is is it's termination of probable cause.
00:28:39.760And this judge is trying to be careful. And he's he's indulging the defense because this is an easy way to go through and kind of throw the defense some bones that won't have any impact on the long term proceedings.
00:28:56.820And this is these are all these are all cheap gimmies to the defense as far as I'm concerned. So I think he's being very careful. I was surprised to learn that he hasn't been on the bench that long. But I think he's doing a pretty good job.
00:29:09.160I wasn't. He's too indulgent. A more seasoned judge would say noted, overruled, moved up and move on like every single objection.
00:29:19.020And this defense lawyer objects to everything. Yeah. So everything.
00:29:23.840So I mean, I was commenting on this the other day and he he wants to hear argument on everything to the point where the defense lawyer has no argument.
00:29:30.920Repeatedly, she's had to say, I stand on my earlier argument. She can't. She has nothing to add.
00:29:36.800she's just trying to slow it up and meanwhile erica kirk has no rights in there no rights
00:29:42.640notwithstanding the utah law it's very aggravating that she and his parents can't even see the
00:29:50.640evidence that's being shown that i'm not talking about the stuff that gets redacted because they've
00:29:54.900decided it's too prejudicial to you know be considered for the prelim the stuff that is
00:29:59.300being admitted but not shown to the media she's being treated like media she's not media she's
00:30:05.000the victim the parents are the victims why don't they get to see it so this is uh this is what's
00:30:10.020known as marcy's law uh megan so california has the same thing and mark did you know that it's
00:30:14.280the same amendment to the to the utah constitution it's article 1 section 28 which i don't know how
00:30:19.920that works statutorily but it's literally the exact same statute with the exact same numbers
00:30:24.340megan so i do marcy's law representation on behalf of victims particularly in sexual assault
00:30:29.260case. So I'm really familiar with this. And you're right. It is. And their comments about it being
00:30:35.860toothless. It is what is known as a right without a remedy. Victims have rights. It's recognized.
00:30:41.520But the person, the only people that can appeal it are the defense. So once again, the court has
00:30:46.800to be really careful about that because every single one of these things is going to go up.
00:30:51.380And the Utah Supreme Court has already weighed in. And this is all going to run through the
00:30:56.00010th circuit. What the judge is doing, I think, is he is ensuring that this thing withstands.
00:31:02.400He knows how strong the evidence is. He's going to bind him over. He's going to go to trial.
00:31:07.280He's going to be found guilty and he's going to be sentenced to death. And that's what this is
00:31:11.880all about. It's so the case doesn't come back and he doesn't have to put the family through it
00:31:15.940again. Like my Rodney Alcala case, we had to try that three times and the victim's family had to
00:31:20.600three times which is devastating for for a family i would caution doing marcy's law work myself i
00:31:28.760would caution their marcy's law attorneys like you don't you want to speak up for the victims
00:31:33.720you want to make sure their voices are heard but you don't want to actually interfere with the
00:31:38.100process and force the judge into making a ruling that's going to get the case dismissed the time
00:31:43.120for the defense showing erica kirk the exhibits and mr and mrs kirk the exhibits is not going to
00:31:49.200get this no the time that's ridiculous i agree it's not going to there's no reason to exclude
00:31:54.040them from to treat them like press they're not press here's forget my word first of all and the
00:31:59.420other thing i've just got to say it's it's it's a bone of contention the judge continues to call her
00:32:03.960miss kirk she is not miss kirk she is mrs kirk she was very notably married to charlie kirk that's
00:32:12.220why she's there she's the mother of his children she's his widow show some respect get it right
00:32:17.500Like, yes, it's the same way judges should learn how to like in Idaho, how the judge still couldn't pronounce, you know, Madison Mogan's name and Zanna Cronodal.
00:32:26.040Right. All the way up to the end. It's like learn the names of the victims and their survivors.
00:32:32.160If you're going to say them as the judge, she's not a miss. He's not even saying Miss half the time.
00:32:36.940He's saying Miss. It's it's annoying. And most women who take their husband's name or even just become married.
00:32:42.940I'm fine when people call me Mrs. Brunt
00:32:45.580even though I didn't take Doug's last name
00:36:07.460Number two, this judge, to Matt's point, if this judge does not do what he's doing, you do not understand the legal colonoscopy that a death penalty conviction gets.
00:36:19.960when matt talks about the 10th circuit you know what he's doing he's damning with faint praise
00:36:25.160the ninth circuit because he's been on the receiving end of doing decades of law decades
00:36:31.920of law at the ninth and the iac no i know the ninth is ridiculous but it has gotten better i
00:36:38.640have to say we did a deep dive on this last year trump got a bunch of judges on that ninth circuit
00:36:42.960court of appeals and it's not nearly as bad as it used to be but they're all generally not so great
00:36:47.440they're all generally stacked with libs but what you have to think of the stack of libs is the
00:36:52.240look i remember i'm old enough to remember when the liberals were the ones who challenged authority
00:36:57.360as opposed to wanted uh totalitarian authority so that's that's kind of a an ironic situation but
00:37:04.860the fact is this judge has to do what he's doing he's doing it very very adroitly and matt's point
00:37:12.800also. And I found this out kind of ironically during Menendez last year. Marcy's law, which is
00:37:20.780the victim's right, which is a constitutional right, is a right without a remedy. And when I
00:37:28.680say in the Menendez case, it was on full display. I have argued for years that the victims are a
00:37:35.500proxy for the prosecution, that when they support what the prosecution wants, the victims are right
00:37:42.500they're front and center. When they don't support what the prosecution wants, they're kind of
00:37:47.120dismissed. But there is no real enforcement mechanism for victims. It's a right that's
00:37:54.940enshrined. And Matt, I did not know it's both Article 1, Section 28, and both constitutions.
00:38:00.760It's an amazing kind of coincidence. But everything that lawyer is saying for Erica
00:38:08.500Kirk is true to some extent, but it's not really accurate. When he says she's got a right to see
00:38:15.880all these things, the prosecution is not limited in what they can show or share with her. So yes,
00:38:23.500the courtroom is limited. Yes, the public is limited. That is so they don't have a challenge
00:38:29.520later on to a tainted jury pool, because all judges usually kick the can down the road and
00:38:36.760say, I'll solve that pretrial publicity or prejudice in jury selection. But if you've got
00:38:43.580a jury selection and a jury pool that is completely tainted by all of the stuff that
00:38:49.560is now inadmissible, you just make your job infinitely harder. So that he's doing the right
00:38:56.020thing. To your point about Tyler Robinson, yes, there is probable cause right now to have Tyler
00:39:02.520Robinson held to answer, which means bound over for trial. But I will tell you something else.
00:39:08.120I'd love to hear Matt's thoughts. I think right now you could clearly get Mr. Twiggs or whatever
00:39:15.840his name is also held to answer for trial as a co-defendant. There is more than enough probable
00:39:23.220cause that's been developed so far on Twiggs. This idea that he's a subject and not a co-conspirator
00:39:30.060is nonsense he'd be held to answer 99 times out of 99 in almost every preliminary hearing court
00:39:37.400that i've ever been in i agree with you on twigs 100 but they've given him use immunity i'm sure
00:39:44.480matt has a lot of thoughts on this exchange and wants to get in still on my miss versus mrs i know
00:39:49.480but um yeah well why don't you do that and then i'll ask you about use immunity and why lance
00:39:54.440twigs not being charged okay so number one um what mark was saying just to just to pick up on that
00:39:59.820the time to sit down with erica kirk and the lawyers is in the prosecutor's office and to
00:40:04.220show her everything so the argument that she's not receiving all the information is a completely
00:40:08.960different one than what the public should see and again mark's exactly right that is so they avoid
00:40:15.200the challenge long term of the jury pool was tainted because we saw that we saw that in
00:40:19.820coberger right the jury pool's been tainted and they had to do a change of venue there there's
00:40:23.300all kinds of problems that ensue from that the place and i've worked with victims megan every
00:40:28.700murder case i did i sat down with the victim's family i gave my personal cell number i did that
00:40:33.160for 21 years okay so i am i am pro-victim victim oriented i represent victims now but the place for
00:40:41.580that is in the prosecutor's office not in not in a courtroom if it's going to create issues because
00:40:46.020nothing is worse than a case coming back i think the misses versus miss of course that's a he's
00:40:51.040misspeaking that's you know i i can't take issue with that you're right he should he should clean
00:40:56.480it up but um look this is this is about the long game and in utah he's actually looking at the death
00:41:03.560penalty and you want to be careful there's a crass uh joke that that i'm sure we've all heard
00:41:09.640about the two bulls standing on the hill and it's probably inappropriate for me to share it but it's
00:41:14.300like there's a young bull and an old bull and there's a whole bunch of cows down in the in the
00:41:18.200pasture and the old bull um and the young bull says the old bull let's run down there and have
00:41:23.800sex with one of those cows. And the old bull says, I got a better idea. Let's walk down there and
00:41:28.640have sex with all of those cows. That's how, in a very crass way, you have to look at death penalty
00:41:33.740cases. It's step by step. You have to be super careful and super methodical because if you base
00:41:39.740one single call on emotion, and look, Megan, I'm with you on this. I've had friends who were
00:41:45.460murdered. I've had two friends, actually three that were murdered, but a good friend of mine
00:41:49.160got murdered in law school and that's you we cannot base decisions ever on the emotions of
00:41:55.520the moment you have to look at it long term long term is you have to go very carefully step by step
00:42:01.460and and look what the defense is doing here i'm seeing something completely different um there's
00:42:07.780the frustration of watching the antics and one of the reasons why my friend mark garagos is so
00:42:12.840deadly in front of a jury his juries like him these the personalities of these lawyers is not
00:42:18.480likeable it's annoying what's that it's a lot he's so likable it's annoying no i know i listen
00:42:24.340you have no idea what it's like going up against him it's terrible because everybody likes the guy
00:42:28.560so so but but you look at this we watched this during the we watched this during the um
00:42:34.160the uh the cory richard's case right that woman it's the same defense lawyer she got up and
00:42:40.020and and tactically you know they're doing they're going through the motions as annoying as it is
00:42:45.200as a prosecutor. I love seeing that because their personalities in this, it's called Keenan
00:42:50.720counsel, the other lawyer that's making a lot of these objections. He just kind of, it's like
00:42:54.600nails on a chalkboard listening to him talk. He aggravates the hell out of me. And as a viewer,
00:43:00.100I want to throw peanuts at my screen. As a prosecutor, you love to see that because when
00:43:07.180you have somebody that stands up and makes obnoxious, obstreperous, pedantic arguments
00:43:12.040every 30 seconds, a jury is going to hate that. And they will have zero credibility when they
00:43:17.040get into the penalty phase. And that is the best thing for Erica Kirk and everybody who is friends
00:43:22.220with Charlie Kirk. Matt is so spot on. I have had cases where the prosecutor or if it's a civil case
00:43:30.740where you're fighting over other people's money, the other person has zero jury appeal and they
00:43:35.600don't understand it. They just don't understand how repulsive they are. Repulsive in the sense
00:44:07.660to somebody who never is going to take the stand.
00:44:10.100And so you become the proxy. If as the proxy, somebody doesn't want to help you in the jury, the last thing you're going to want to do, and I tell this to my new lawyers, why would you antagonize the jurors?
00:44:26.440I can understand actually antagonizing the judge sometime if the judge is not likable.
00:44:32.640Matt and I have always commented on that when we're in a courtroom where the jurors don't like the judge or the judges issuing OSCs on jurors because they're five minutes late and the jurors want to revolt.
00:44:45.960At that point, I almost purposefully will antagonize the judge.
00:44:50.220But absent that, that's your audience.
00:44:53.780Here, your audience is the public. You don't care. I have not had the pleasure of watching any of these lawyers in trial, but I push back on the objecting at a prelim. At a prelim, I think all bets are off when you're on the defense. You should be pushing. You should be going after the witnesses. You should be objecting. You should be testing everything out.
00:45:17.580It's the only way as a defense lawyer that you can refine. It's a wonderful kind of a test runs.
00:45:24.320OK, I got it. I got it. I mean, I disagree. And I disagree that the judge has to indulge all of
00:45:29.140this. And, you know, you can sort of be you can blanket. Got it. Your blanket objections,
00:45:33.800unduly prejudicial on the statement. She's made it 25 times. We have to go through it each and
00:45:39.820every time each whatever. OK, fine. But but let's talk about Lance Twiggs, because, you know,
00:45:47.580If you hear it, it's a very that Turkey Tom report, which we've been looking into for the better part of six months on our team, like running it by the FBI.
00:45:55.600Like we've actually done a deep dive on that report and it hasn't fallen apart.
00:46:03.380It hasn't gone far and wide because the original source behind it refuses to come forward and identify him or herself.
00:46:09.820But it does paint a picture, Matt, I mean, literally with pictures of their alleged apartment of like a dark, destructive, sick home in which Tyler Robinson for at least some large portion of the final year was OK, was like holding it together.
00:46:34.660while this roommate was on a trans spiral
00:47:00.540Maybe he just touched the towel, I get it.
00:47:02.600Also, the screwdriver that they found on the roof that the prosecution says was used to assemble the gun by Tyler Robinson.
00:47:08.820I mean, maybe he touched the screwdriver and making all his crazy, crazy concoctions on that table.
00:47:13.620I don't know. But he also was the one corresponding with Tyler in those text messages that sound somewhat manufactured.
00:47:22.040It was not you, was it, Tyler? It was I, my love.
00:47:26.620I mean, I'm overdoing it, but you this is why a lot of people think that it's a Fed behind this whole thing or it's it's a country or somebody's manufacturing these, whereas it could be a real or be the two of them doing this little cosplaying act to keep Lance Twiggs out of the Fed's crosshairs when Tyler knew he'd either be dead or arrested, as his own note says.
00:48:35.580But there's a there's also a love affair here.
00:48:38.600And this goes to motive by Tyler Robinson that he's somehow, you know, defending the honor of his love, which is how he refers to to Lance Twiggs.
00:48:48.600so um you know the furry world is weird um the idea that lance is weird kind of fits perfectly
00:48:56.700in my mind that this is going to be tyler robinson's gone off the deep end he's decided
00:49:01.080that he's going to embrace the trans community and um and whatever uh but then going and committing
00:49:07.040a murder you know as a result of it it all kind of it fits in a way um so that's my take what does
00:49:14.160Does it mean that Lance is getting use immunity, Matt, instead of getting charged as a co-conspirator, he's getting use immunity?
00:49:36.240I only did that twice in my entire career.
00:49:38.260The other is what's known as use immunity.
00:49:39.700That's also known in the federal federal world. It's queen for a day where you sit down and they immunize you against the statements that you make in that interview and the derivative of that.
00:49:50.740But if independent evidence arises outside of your interview or what they learn or are able to glean from it and further investigation, anything else separate, they can still prosecute you for that.
00:50:03.100So, in other words, you're given sort of carte blanche to talk about what happened, and then they agree not to prosecute you based on those sentences or those statements, if that makes sense.
00:50:15.400So that's the common way it's done, and they have to do that.
00:50:18.920Otherwise, he would have a Fifth Amendment right against testifying when the trial comes around or even at the prelim.
00:50:26.360If he didn't have it, he'd expose himself federally.
00:50:31.540He's going to he has a right to counsel. They have to immunize him so that he can so that he can participate in the.
00:50:37.280Do they have a right to cross examine, Matt? Yes.
00:50:40.580Ultimately, they certainly do. But but you you hit the nail on the head on that one, Megan.
00:50:45.200The there is there's no right to cross examine somebody at a preliminary hearing.
00:50:50.100Hearsay is admissible in Utah, just like it is in California.
00:50:53.460That's been appealed to the umpteenth. That's gone to the U.S. Supreme Court.
00:50:57.520It's OK. Why are you saying otherwise, Mark?
00:50:59.360Because in California, as Matt will tell you, when you do a hearsay prelim, we call it a 115 prelim that was based on the proposition.
00:51:06.860The only way the California Supreme Court said that that withstood constitutional scrutiny is there had to be a corresponding section, which there is in California called 866, which allows the defense to make a proffer to say, I want to either cross examine the declarant, the hearsay declarant.
00:51:27.920And here's why, because there's exculpatory evidence that I can show on cross-examination
01:01:05.960Because like Mark just said, the things that you get reversed for can be so innocuous and you just don't want to put the family through it again.
01:01:14.840You want to maximize the chances of this being withheld on appeal, being upheld on appeal.
01:01:22.260And you let the poor Kirk family put this behind them to the to the greatest extent possible.
01:01:27.760Another thing they're dealing with is they're dealing with all of these insane conspiracy theories that are out there.
01:01:32.400And I think that's why we're seeing such a detailed preliminary hearing.
01:01:36.580Mark or I on a regular murder case without a without a capital case component to this, without a death penalty lingering out there.
01:01:44.620This is a one day prelim. You put on the rifle, you do the.
01:01:48.660It's two hours. Yeah. Yeah. Literally two hours.
01:01:52.380And and they're doing this, I think it's interesting because there's there's been so much public discourse.
01:01:59.000I've seen some insane things on the Internet, mostly championed by Candace Owens, that are it is so loony tinfoil hat out there.
01:02:10.380And I think that's hard on the on the victim's family.
01:02:12.860So I also want to commend the prosecution for going through this, even though it's five days, because it really does change the public discourse on it.
01:02:21.340We're about to separate those that are open minded to other defense theories from the actual lunatics.
01:02:27.760It's like the probators with Brian Cobra, right?
01:03:05.040I mean, I don't agree with Candace's theory of this case, but I have to say, I genuinely believe she was traumatized by watching her friend die.
01:04:08.320And again, I don't know her. I would I would debate her any time on on some of this stuff because it's insane.
01:04:14.480Like the Israel didn't kill Charlie Kirk. Sorry, they just didn't.
01:04:17.700This is this is this is a murder case. It's a death penalty case.
01:04:22.100this is what they look like this is what killers sound like this is this is how these things
01:04:27.180actually occur in reality you got a guy who's in love with a trans guy who decides he's going
01:04:32.900to kill somebody because some somehow that would help him that's america today that's that's that
01:04:38.280is um i mean charlie kirk himself i don't know i'm sure you've seen the post um assassination
01:04:43.140culture you know and and tyler rompton proved him right it's like hey buddy you killed the guy and
01:04:49.740you proved him right at the same time. It's like, all right, Matt, I mean, if we're going to go down
01:04:52.480this lane, then we can go down this lane because it was Andrew Colvett of Turning Point who turned
01:04:59.280over to the FBI Charlie's criticisms of his Jewish donors and his threats to leave the pro-Israel
01:05:06.380cause right before he was murdered. That was Turning Point. And I love Andrew Colvett. And
01:05:11.800he did that because he's an honest guy. And he said, you know what? They should investigate
01:05:15.280everything they should investigate who else had an ax to grind with Charlie and who else might
01:05:21.260be motivated he's not some conspiracy theorist like why I was told this myself and it's been
01:05:28.740now been reported by her and others that there were at least 11 there's a difference in 11
01:05:33.660versus 14 Israel only cell phones on the campus of UVU that day like not from from Israeli citizens
01:05:41.680In other words, open accounts open in Israel and the NSA knew that shit within two minutes because they lock those scenes down and they can tell you exactly what cell phones were on scene.
01:05:51.020I don't say that means Israel killed Charlie, but it's one of the reasons why both of these are reasons why all along I've said we should we should be.
01:05:59.180You should not be saying to her or anybody else, you're not allowed to ask that question.
01:06:03.740You are allowed to ask questions that it is smart to say who else had a motive.
01:06:08.660And when it comes to these lone gunman assassinations, you know, Butler and now this people always ask, was he put up to it?
01:06:20.100You know, is there some nefarious government source?
01:06:23.040Some people could believe in CIA and MKUltra.
01:06:25.520Some people believe the CIA actually killed like JFK.
01:06:38.660you have a theory, show me the evidence and persuade me with something that's admissible
01:06:42.940in a court of law that I can argue with. But I well, that's where we are. But not everybody's
01:06:48.780like we are. And it doesn't necessarily make them a nutcase to not trust the official government
01:06:53.640narrative. Well, what about just I didn't get Matt? Maybe I'll save it for in the well. But
01:06:58.820I wanted Matt's reaction. Well, you don't think there's enough to have in to have charged Lance
01:07:06.220twigs in this case i think that you really need to show that there was some sort of um something
01:07:14.340beforehand or or even after where he's helping um you you need the the dna is not enough for me
01:07:20.420and and you know mark i've done conspiracy cases where people have been yelling at me why i haven't
01:07:25.140included people sometimes i've included people that i heard the exact opposite you know how come
01:07:30.660how come that person's involved and it just going along with what megan just said it's i i i follow
01:07:36.000the evidence when i call it as i see it and the the dna means nothing uh you always get you always
01:07:41.680get i agree i've got i can't tell you the number of murder cases that i've had discourse especially
01:07:47.020with with the increasing sensitivity what mark then what do you like to indict lance with i i
01:07:51.960think that lance if uh on the before and if you read the the actually i was going to say you're
01:08:00.020the one who put the idea in my head with some of the things that you had talked about five days
01:08:05.320before four days before and then the text that referenced knowledge by him by lance prior to
01:08:13.960this if i'm the defense i'm all over that because there is something more to this this idea of this
01:08:20.520of tyler robinson doing this alone so far based on everything i've seen i would be all over that
01:08:27.800when matt says the dna alone he's right i've defended that's not to say i have defended
01:08:34.800murder cases where guys got help to answer because i can think of one where his fingerprint
01:08:39.520was on a mattress frame where the the stabbing took place we got it dismissed but that was
01:08:45.240enough to get you past prelim now you've got dna on several items that were essential uh let me
01:08:51.980pause you mark i just we're let's check in with what's happening in the court because agent davis
01:08:55.860just took the stand and this is who they're going to get the video in through so let's listen see
01:08:59.240if they're doing it finally this meeting is uh to use your statement here instead of your testimony
01:09:07.320at a preliminary hearing understand that okay so um here we go in order to do that to do that i
01:09:13.700need to place you under oath and also give you a an admonition about false statements okay
01:09:18.380first uh you do solemnly swear or affirm that the evidence you shall give in this issue shall be the
01:09:25.420truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god yes um i also need to notify you
01:09:33.260that you are notified the statements you are about to make may be presented at to a magistrate
01:09:38.380or a judge in lieu of your sworn testimony at a preliminary examination any false statement you
01:09:44.400make and that you do not believe to be true maybe sub may subject you to criminal punishment as a
01:09:50.000class A misdemeanor. Do you understand that? Yes. It potentially could be used for punishment
01:09:56.040as a higher offense as obstruction of justice. In addition, I just want to make sure that
01:10:04.120our recording here is clear that you've also been given a federal agreement and a state
01:10:12.400agreement granting you immunity from prosecution for materials that you discuss now. Do you
01:10:17.980understand that. First, I'm going to cover some of the things that you've already talked
01:10:24.480about, but to make it as part of this record. First, what's your name? Full name with middle
01:10:32.940name or just first and last? First and last is fine. Okay. My name is Lance Twiggs. And
01:10:37.880do you know Tyler Robinson? Yes, I do. Yeah, I do. And is the same Tyler Robinson that's
01:10:44.420been charged with the shooting of Charlie Kirk? Yes. And would you say when you first met Tyler?
01:10:52.720I think it was 2023. I've known him longer than that, though. That was, I think, the first time
01:10:57.680I met him in person. Okay. And will you describe your relationship with Tyler when you first met him?
01:11:10.060anyway um when i first met him i didn't know him super well he was just a new roommate so
01:11:19.420uh i knew he knew my friend group and i knew he liked playing games but that's that's about
01:11:26.140it when we first uh like when he first moved him okay um before we go on i realized my mic was
01:11:32.380I'm going to repeat those admonitions just to make sure we got it before you.
01:11:40.380Okay, so again, I placed you under oath.
01:11:44.380Just to make a record, I'm going to do it again.
01:11:48.380You just always swear that the evidence you shall give in this issue shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so have you gotten it?
01:21:10.920Like I said, he was up and around doing a lot of stuff around the house.
01:21:18.320And then I think I saw him after that message where I said, I'll come home and say I'm doing laundry because I didn't want him going to my parents' house right then when he said there was probably cops outside.
01:21:33.020So I went back home and it was just him there and I said bye to him and then he drove off.
01:21:39.160So I just went back to my parents' house.
01:32:06.620And aside from the court-ordered redactions, did it appear to you to be fair and accurate about what you remember, that interview that day?
01:33:55.640In Lance's first interview, he is showing the FBI agents these text messages, describes them to the agents, and at that time, his phone was photographed.
01:34:14.580And you testified, I believe, yesterday that Mr. Twigg's first interview was the morning of September 12th, 2025. Is that correct?
01:41:21.680Or shortly, we'll update you by midnight.
01:41:23.140and then Lance says all right stay safe how long have you been planning this
01:41:28.560scroll down a little bit please Kimberly and Tyler replies a bit over a week I believe
01:41:35.460I can get close to it but there is a squad car parked right by it I think they already swept
01:41:40.880that spot but I don't want to chance it we can scroll down to page four and continue
01:41:46.480reading uh about halfway down i'll stop you about halfway down uh this is while they were
01:41:54.620spot but i don't want to chance it while they were parked there if they'd found it i imagine
01:41:59.620there would be more commotion again i'm sorry for roping you into all of this you shouldn't
01:42:04.540have to worry about this and lance replies does anyone else know tyler says not to my knowledge
01:42:11.740All right, I'll stop you there. Let's move to page five. So this should be page four. So just scroll down one, please, Kimberly. And if you could read starting. Sorry, Kimberly, scroll a bit more down. If you could read, I don't know, about one third of the way up that starts with guess.
01:42:38.500okay um tyler says guess i'm guess i'm just sitting in my car watching reels for
01:42:46.520another hour hoping this guy fucks off and continue and lance says are you okay still
01:42:53.980and tyler says yes check and spot again now we'll sorry now we're on page six continue reading
01:51:32.460Thank you, we've already lodged all of our objections on all three phases
01:51:37.300Noting the objections, standing objections by defense
01:51:41.720State's Exhibit 16.2 is admitted into evidence and may be published only in the gallery, not for distribution on electronic media.
01:51:59.000Sirius XM fans, if you are listening to us now, we've lost audio from the proceeding, we think, intentionally on their part.
01:52:04.640They've turned off the mics, we believe, right now to have a private consultation between the judge and the lawyers on whether the public can have access to the Discord messages of Tyler Robinson, Lance Twiggs, and others in their gaming group.
01:52:20.060There were at least three confessions alleged by my count.
01:52:26.340One was the letter that he left under Lance Twiggs' keyboard.
01:52:29.820one was the text messages he and Lance Twiggs had about the letter and what he had done
01:52:35.980and one was in the discord group message chat where he confessed they said at 7 57 p.m on 9 11
01:52:45.100the day after the murder one hour before he showed up at the sheriff's office to turn himself in
01:52:51.300um just we're going to go back in there when the when they allow us to hear what's happening again
01:52:58.300but what an extraordinary 40 minutes we all just had together.
01:54:56.960How did law enforcement get this photograph?
01:55:01.360So following Lance's first interview at St. George PD,
01:55:06.520his phone is recovered at that point, taken into evidence.
01:55:09.900It is downloaded, I believe it was the following day or shortly after that, the FBI transported that phone to the RCFL, which is the Regional Computer Forensic Laboratory in Salt Lake City.
01:55:23.560The phone was downloaded through Celebrite, and after that, following that download that was complete, SBI received a flash drive containing that download.
01:55:39.220From there, it went to a SIAC analyst to go through that data of his phone
01:55:44.680to look for any pertinent evidence or information that may be on there.
01:55:50.140And at that point, this image of this letter was located.
01:55:58.600All right. I'm going to break down a few things.
01:56:01.380You mentioned, I just want to make sure the record's clear,
01:56:04.540you mentioned Celebrate a few times. What is Celebrate?
01:56:07.060It's a downloading software that's commonly used by law enforcement.
01:56:11.600I don't do that myself, but it's commonly used to recover data, to download electronic devices, particularly cell phones.
01:56:20.800And then you mentioned SIAC. What does that mean?
01:56:23.240It's the Statewide Information Analysis Center.
01:56:26.240It's a division within DPS. It's a fusion center.
01:56:30.320They assist law enforcement with intelligence, various intelligence information for our investigations.
01:56:40.300You mentioned that you don't personally do Cellbrite phone extractions.
01:56:45.140Have you spoken to the law enforcement officers that performed the Cellbrite extraction on Mr. Twig's phone in this case?
01:56:51.920I don't believe I specifically talked to those individuals, RCFL, that did that.
01:57:56.240Just noting the objections that have previously been made, and I think that the court's order is that it may be published in the courtroom only.
01:58:03.860Thank you. Noting the standing objection by defense, 16.3, correct?
02:04:15.960So you get a feel a little bit for how these two talk.
02:04:18.160this is earlier I can't tell the date but it's it's prior to the murder a day I can see it's
02:04:24.580maybe the Sunday prior to the Wednesday murder 7 p.m. does that still or that still work for you
02:04:32.520yep I love you that's Monday it's blurry but I think I can read that it's Monday at 1 15 I love
02:04:40.440you, writes, I think, Tyler. Yeah. Lance responds, love you, too. Hope work's going well. Then
02:04:52.300Wednesday, well, Wednesday, that was the day of the murder, and it's 4.33 p.m. Well, that's
02:05:00.980fascinating. And Wednesday, 4.33 p.m., Tyler texts Lance, love you, like M-W-A-H, typed out
02:05:10.420Twice. And, and Tyler responds, I'm sorry, Lance responds. I love you. More Z's. Moi, moi, moi.
02:05:17.420I mean, okay. Then that same day, Wednesday at 11 PM comes in from Tyler, drop what you are doing.
02:05:27.820Look under my keyboard. And Lance responds, what with the X clip with a question marks marks.
02:05:32.760You're joking, right? And then fuck, I tried to delete that. Very interesting. And we're getting
02:05:39.400more. But, but truly the most interesting thing to me that we've heard in all of this is that he
02:05:46.960went, Tyler went back home on September 11th, the day after the murder that Lance said, I saw him
02:05:55.360when I woke up, he was walking around the house. I went, I went home and it was just Tyler there.
02:06:01.520I said goodbye to him. And I went back to my parents' house. The prosecutor was asking if he
02:06:08.200was acting erratically, which Lance had apparently signed on to and then said, yes, he was pacing
02:06:14.700around a lot. Lance said he didn't go into detail about what he had done, but I asked him if what
02:06:22.540he said the night before was true. And he said, yes, he cried and said he wished he hadn't done
02:06:29.860it. Unbelievable. What's that? We're back, Steve? Oh, no, we're not back. Okay. Yeah.
02:06:40.040He cried and said he wished he hadn't done it. He said he would talk to his parents
02:06:45.060or turn himself in. When you left, was that the plan? Yes. I did not want to be at our apartment
02:06:51.640when that happened or when he said possible law enforcement got there and went from there.
02:06:58.020and this is just, it's chilling. I don't know. It's just, you know, he cried and said he wished
02:07:10.660he hadn't done it. And what good does that do? He was crying on September 11th, wishing he hadn't
02:07:18.400done it. Think of the condition of Erica Kirk and the nation, all of us. Okay. So this is the first
02:07:31.200we've had any indication he's sorry. He's sorry that he did it. Great. It's not going to spare
02:07:38.220his life. It's just something about knowing that. Not as forgiving as Erica. It's galling in some
02:07:45.400way. Okay. You're sorry. Maybe you should have thought about it a little bit more before you
02:07:49.280took out your... All right. We're going to bring in our legal panel and get their thoughts. Mark
02:07:55.620and Matt are out, but Dave Ehrenberg is here along with Mark Eichlarsh, as well as Viva Fry.
02:08:01.800Viva's a Rumble host, Dave's former prosecutor of Palm Beach County, and Mark is a criminal and
02:08:08.640civil attorney. Guys, pretty stunning, pretty stunning stuff there. My jaw was on the floor.
02:08:15.040We did get to see Lance Twiggs, first of all. Part of the video was played, which I thought was very helpful because you could see him. He was in a suit. He was dressed as a man, even though the defense keeps calling him Luna. He said he's only Luna for some people. But he was wearing a video. He was wearing a suit in the video. He had long hair. He was chewing gum. Here's a picture of him, which they then asked him to spit out, which he did.
02:08:40.700And to think of Tyler Robinson sitting in that courtroom, Dave Ehrenberg, watching his roommate, former lover, whom he will never see again in all likelihood in person, or at least not never be able to touch, give it all up.
02:09:01.380you know talk about the text messages the the letter that was found under the keyboard
02:09:08.240the the conversation the day after an extraordinary conversation the day after
02:09:14.180i can only imagine what the dynamic was inside that courtroom your reaction to what we just heard
02:09:18.440megan i thought that twigs came across as credible it sounds like he had no part in this and he
02:09:25.940generally was shocked that tyler robinson did this and these messages are really damning i know there
02:09:33.540are a lot of people on the internet that want to believe what they want to believe there's nothing
02:09:38.060that could prove otherwise that they think this is some international conspiracy or somehow tyler
02:09:43.040robinson was framed but you've got a guy who confessed at least three and possibly four times
02:09:49.980You have the note under the keyboard and then you have him saying, oh, he had forgotten he had sent the the text that alerted Twiggs to the note under the keyboard.
02:10:01.620Oh, darn. So, I mean, it's very typical for a moron like Tyler Robinson to act like that.
02:10:08.100Number two, you've got the subsequent one that he justified the murder because he had enough of Charlie's hatred.
02:10:14.120Then you had the discord chat later on. And then you had and I don't think we've heard it yet, but you're going to hear about how when his parents confronted him, he confessed to his parents, according to report.
02:10:25.740So four times. And for those out there who think, well, the wording of one of those confessions is so Shakespearean, it could not have come from an incel like this guy.
02:10:35.980no you saw subsequent messages like his his dismay that they could find the rifle and what
02:10:43.440is he going to do to replace his grandfather's rifle and he was cursing and he was scared
02:10:47.720that's who this guy is they've got the right guy even the you know like the kissy like
02:10:54.780clearly they don't communicate the way right some of us would conjure up in our heads like
02:11:00.980the gamers, these, you know, young gamers, like these are two gay men, at least one of whom maybe
02:11:08.840both are a furry, one of whom may or may not be trans. Like, I don't think we can be assuming how
02:11:16.880they talk. I think we need to be reading the text messages to glean how they talk.
02:11:20.980Megan, that's such a good point. I was on our show, MK True Crime, and I was debating
02:11:25.480with Lauren Conlon about that, about the language used. And she said, it does sound weird and
02:11:30.460unusual and I don't see it. I can't relate to it. And I said, yeah, you're not a furry, right? I
02:11:35.860mean, we're talking about a whole different universe of people here. And so we're supposed
02:11:40.900to be like, well, they don't comply with our current standards of decency and language. Come
02:11:46.320on. The whole thing is weird. Yeah. I don't know a lot of 20 year old guys who are doing that
02:11:50.800to each other like that. Okay. We're in a different territory here already on the preceding
02:11:57.480texts, which came days before. So if this is like all some FBI plot to like come up with a text
02:12:03.460message, boy, they did a good job. They went back days. They made the super gay exchanges between
02:12:07.820the two of them to set up phrases like my love. I don't you know, whatever. But Mark, I got listening
02:12:14.160to that whole thing was pretty extraordinary. But the Lance Twig testimonial and the evidence that
02:12:18.500came in right right after from that agent who we listened to. That was Lauren Hunt, the deputy DA
02:12:26.100doing the cross-examination and, sorry, who did, say that again, Steve? Oh, Agent Davis. Oh yeah,
02:12:34.640it was Agent Brian Davis with the Utah State Bureau of Investigation. Your reaction to what
02:12:40.740you heard? I thought the testimony was compelling. I think the state did a great job laying it out,
02:12:45.660not just for the judge, who again, I think, you know, in 20 minutes would have found probable
02:12:50.140cause. But for those independents, I'll call them, not the conspiracy theorists, they're never going
02:12:56.940to be convinced. It doesn't matter. This is nail in the coffin right here. It's so clear that he's
02:13:02.320guilty. But for those people, it doesn't matter for the independents. And by that, I mean those
02:13:08.020who are reasonable, those who, like myself, have an open mind and say, OK, I wasn't there. I don't
02:13:13.400know what happened. Prove to me the chain of custody that there weren't some agents who said,
02:13:18.740let's frame this guy like the Mona Lisa for some reason, leaving the true killer out there
02:13:23.300for no reason at all, risking their life in prison to frame Tyler Robinson, which makes
02:13:30.660zero sense. I think they did a great job of laying this out. Now, I do want one other point.
02:13:36.700The fact that he feels sorry for what he did, to me, there was only one thing that came from that.
02:13:41.960if ever politics get put aside and prosecutors choose to extend a life in prison offer where
02:13:51.840he waives his right to appeal and he goes away, no big trial, no more copycat folks because
02:13:58.820they're watching him and all the media attention he's getting. If they ever do that, it's more
02:14:04.440likely, in my opinion, that he would accept something like that because of that remark,
02:14:30.380to Mark's point, people are gonna say guilty.
02:14:34.580Remind everybody, this is just probable cause.
02:14:37.020Probable cause has been established, period, full stop.
02:14:40.020People can still say it wasn't him in the video. Lance Twiggs is lying. OK, you'll raise your reasonable doubt at trial. From a probable cause perspective, this preliminary hearing is over with a big fat period at the end of it. I'm not convinced, you know, unlike Dave, I'm not convinced. Lance might have come off as sincere, but I'm more convinced now than I was before that he had some involvement in this.
02:15:03.940You know, one question I would have loved for, I think it was Brian Davis who asked him the questions in the video, whoever was asking him the questions, I would have loved for them to ask Lance if he was Ryan McBride, sorry, I would have loved for them to have asked if he knew what messages Tyler engraved in the bullets, because if you're going hunting with your family, you don't need hey, fascist catch on the bullet.
02:15:24.740But I'm still thoroughly convinced people in the Discord chats had advanced knowledge.
02:15:30.880I'm convinced there were more people involved in the planning.
02:15:33.700And certainly now we're seeing in the cover up afterwards a people who aided and abetted Tyler Robinson after the act.
02:15:39.660And I believe that many of them had foreknowledge of what was coming beforehand.
02:15:43.080But from a probable cause perspective, it's over and let people try to raise whatever reasonable doubt they think they can, despite the evidence.
02:15:51.540But just to answer all those people on Twitter on X right now, it's the wrong guy. He wasn't the right height. Those those exchanges were manufactured. You'll raise a reasonable doubt. But when it comes to probable cause, it's been established. And Lance's testimony was the nail in the coffin.
02:16:05.420Yeah. And the other thing is you can hear the prosecution who's clearly, you know, they've been listening to the alternate theories, I'll say, because they spent time asking him about the discord phone of the discord confession, you know, where he the last thing he did before he put himself into custody with that sheriff's deputy friend was to go on discord and confess again.
02:16:30.980and one of the theories out there has been that was clearly a lie because he was in custody at
02:16:38.040the time that message on discord was posted at 7 57 p.m on 9 11 the day after the shooting and
02:16:46.000you saw the prosecutor there that lauren hunt the deputy da going through the timeline and the
02:16:53.020officer said 7 57 p.m that is when tyler posted that message on discord and she said and when
02:16:59.560did he arrive at the sheriff's office and he said 9 p.m uh so establishing the timeline again that's
02:17:06.980not for the judge that that's to prove to the world he was not in custody when he posted that
02:17:11.980discord to confession he was still at his home he had plenty of time to get down to the local
02:17:18.340uh sheriff's office and turn himself in um i do think it's interesting like i don't know whether
02:17:24.660the message, the photo of the message that was left under the keyboard and or the text messages
02:17:31.220were turned over by Lance Twiggs or found by Celebrite. I, to this moment, don't know that.
02:17:37.560And let's not forget, Dave, one of the interesting things is he did not call law enforcement. Lance
02:17:43.820Twiggs did not call the cops, didn't call him on 910, didn't call him on 911 when he got that
02:17:49.760message from from tyler he didn't call him when he saw tyler walking around the house and read
02:17:54.740double down on the on the confession they they had to go to him after tyler turned himself in
02:17:59.520so i don't know i mean in another world you could see the da someone like yourself and the cops
02:18:05.640finding a way to slap charges on this guy no yeah especially because twigs's dna was found on the
02:18:12.160screwdriver and uh and on the towel were covered with the rifle and they lived together so you
02:18:17.900could have an innocent explanation but if you wanted to say that twigs was an accessory he
02:18:22.400didn't report it um you could try the thing is is that it's got to be more than knowing about it uh
02:18:29.440and uh not saying there's no good samaritan law that you have to report but if he tried to cover
02:18:36.060it up if he helped tyler robinson evade capture or cover it up then he could be charged as an
02:18:42.420accessory he's only been given use immunity for his testimony so that means they could develop
02:18:46.400independently evidence against him so he's not out of the woods yet but my take and i don't totally
02:18:51.640disagree with viva my take is that he sounded credible and i don't think he was an accessory
02:18:58.180to it but i would keep an open mind that if they do have evidence that showed that he helped
02:19:02.340keep the heat away from his roommate then yeah then they should go after him too
02:19:06.880the i'm just going through my notes on his testimony uh he said okay they spent the night
02:19:15.660together in the same apartment on nine, nine the night before the crime. Uh, when did he leave
02:19:20.240early? He said maybe 5.00 AM could have been even earlier. 1.00 AM saying that he had to work that
02:19:25.720day. He had a long drive to work that day. And it wasn't until late that evening, 11 PM or 10,
02:19:32.540according to my text here that he received the automated message. Um, he did cop to seeing Tyler
02:19:39.740engraved bullets earlier. Tyler told him that he was going hunting with his family,
02:19:46.000told him to make sure, oh, he told Tyler to make sure he did not set off the bullet in the house.
02:19:51.940Tyler asked about a Dremel to engrave. I didn't know what that was, but my team found a picture
02:19:56.760of a Dremel and it's like a machine that, I don't know, it's like a carving, I guess, machine.
02:20:02.060A mini handyman's tool, like a dentist drill, but more powerfully, you switch the end if you
02:20:06.260want to cut, engrave, whatever. It's a good tool. I mean, you have to be very precise at the end if
02:20:11.160you're engraving a bullet. It's a pencil tip. I mean, you can basically use it as a pencil for
02:20:15.500engraving and then you can buff stuff out of it. It's very useful. I mean, that in and of itself,
02:20:21.680Viva, really is suspicious. Like they're sitting in the same room and he's engraving bullets and
02:20:27.680they're lovers. And he doesn't say, what do you have there? What are you engraving? I'm telling
02:20:33.680It might be my own bias because I'm coming into Lance's testimony already believing what I believe and I want to find things to substantiate it, but that he's not even more shocked at what has happened, that he doesn't put, that he claims that he didn't put any of this together and it's only late in the evening that it even clicks with him that Tyler might have done this.
02:20:52.000I've got great difficulty believing that
02:21:20.160It almost feels like they love the attention that they're getting right now.
02:21:23.300Lance is being asked questions about his childhood and, you know, the games that they used to play.
02:21:26.980And it's like it's all the attention in the world that they've ever wanted because they snuffed out of this earth an existence of a man that was incomparably a better human.
02:21:39.000It just makes it nauseous to me to actually listen to this testimony where they might even revel in the attention.
02:21:43.740And Tyler never got this much attention in his life before.
02:21:46.820And what made him famous was snuffing out the life of Charlie Kirk.
02:21:50.160Oh, stomach turning. Who would have been a future president without question? Who led a movement,
02:21:57.880who led a Christian revival, who at such a young age had already made such a difference in our
02:22:04.380world, just a profound impact on so many levels. And yeah, these two losers sitting there with
02:22:10.400their pot and whatever else they were doing in that apartment, their stupid memes and their
02:22:15.060gamer life contributing next to nothing took it all away he was asked did you read that note that
02:22:23.160automated message yes around 11 on on september 10th they showed a picture of it they they uh he
02:22:29.860said then he read the note and then he put the note back on on tyler's desk we don't clearly
02:22:35.840tyler got rid of it because we've never seen the actual note the only reason we know about that
02:22:41.500note that was under uh tyler's keyboard that tyler told lance to go look for is because lance
02:22:47.860took a picture of it and the cops found that picture on his phone and ultimately found him
02:22:53.540after tyler confessed but they've never gotten the actual note clearly tyler went there and did some
02:22:58.260cleanup the next day which is interesting um let's see he left a message i don't think i meant
02:25:53.460And when you start to hear things like him crying, him wishing he didn't do it, while that would have zero impact on you and maybe other panelists here, that could have an impact on at least one of the 12 jurors. And since they require a unanimous verdict to give him death, that's a concern. It's not a guarantee that you're going to get the death penalty here.
02:26:16.380and the other thing just to continue that thought mark is that everything we hear about tyler
02:26:22.880robinson like we opened the show today with this reporting from this well-known youtuber and this
02:26:30.700guy says he was contacted by a friend of the pair of them robinson and twigs and that that person
02:26:37.200gave this youtuber a bunch of like we showed pictures from what he said was inside their
02:26:42.040apartment, a bunch of details on both of them, Tyler Robinson and Lance Twiggs. And if you
02:26:47.720believe all of this, the takeaway is Lance Twiggs was a hot mess and Tyler Robinson was
02:26:56.020kind of fine, not thriving exactly, but not the problem. Like maybe realizing he was gay,
02:27:05.020But like, that's it. He wasn't the one manic and crying and doing experiments with mold and then whisks with metal on them, trying to grow shit in the apartment and, you know, swaying between like huge bouts of depression and then manic, maniacal smiling and giggling while he did these crazy drawings.
02:27:26.060that was all twigs. So I, I don't know if, I don't know if that answers anything about how
02:27:33.300Tyler Robinson one day pulled out his gun and shot Charlie Kirk, according to the prosecution. But
02:27:39.200it, it's not like hearing about Charles Manson, who is this like frothing at the mouth,
02:27:45.420serial killer who loved killing. Who's that? That's for you. Oh, it is for me. I mean,
02:27:51.400No, just agreed. Yeah. Just yeah. It's not like a lifetime of crime. Oh, absolutely. No. And again, that's another argument. I mean, I know it gets people upset to think that there's any way that he might not get death. But it's another argument to be made to the 12 people who are deciding whether he should live or die.
02:28:11.180The absence of the Charlie Manson-like thought process, the record dating back to the disco
02:28:19.280crisis, which you would hope to find on someone you're finally going to give the ultimate
02:28:23.340sanction to, what he did was abhorrent, without question.
02:28:27.460But again, you've got to fine-tune the argument and say why he should die and not spend the
02:28:54.120By the way, before I play it, it's interesting because.
02:28:58.120What we learned at the top of the show where we talked about that, what the YouTuber reported.
02:29:03.400Was that Tyler was in a caretaking role toward Lance Twiggs.
02:29:07.120tyler kind of had his act more together you know he had a job and he wasn't having i don't know if
02:29:15.580it's bipolar or what but the those huge emotional swings and he was they they described him as as
02:29:21.300lance's handler but like he had defaulted to a caretaking role of lance twigs and lance is the
02:29:28.500one who is doing hrt according to this youtuber like really starting to do like like off-market
02:29:33.520hormone replacement therapy as he grew breasts and was trying to turn himself into a woman
02:29:37.360which in many circumstances drives people nuts and they unleash violence on us um but it you know
02:29:45.800along this same line you're going to get an argument that he thought he was taking care
02:29:50.680of lance twigs that day too you know this hate he was so uh he was so uh he so objected to
02:29:57.780in Charlie was about this issue. That's, that's what we think they're going to be able to prove.
02:30:05.560And, um, you know, you see Luna sitting there in a suit with long hair projecting, I don't know
02:30:11.500what, but this is going to be an ongoing theme that like, this is some sort of a caregiving
02:30:15.440type situation in Tyler's head. Here's the soundbite from Lance Twiggs about the day after
02:30:22.480the murder seeing tyler in their apartment and did he talk about what he had done uh didn't go
02:30:30.340into detail he just i just asked him in person if what he said was true the night before and he said
02:30:37.220it was i started crying a little bit and said he wishes he hadn't done it uh and then kept
02:30:44.860going around and just doing stuff i think to keep himself busy or distracted or something
02:30:52.080and they i mean viva can i just say like i don't believe that there's no way they he just said
02:30:59.380is it true what you told me last night yes it's true that's what i was just trying to look up
02:31:04.400in terms of when the first images of tyler robinson were circulated to the public to
02:31:08.700identify the individual i think i think lance said in his in his testimony oh well lance in
02:31:14.900his testimony yeah i wasn't on social i wasn't on social media much i first of all i have trouble
02:31:19.840believing that i'd like to know when the first images were circulated because to me there's no
02:31:24.160doubt in my mind that he knew it was true and he might have known before that uh text message went
02:31:30.180out to him and when tyler says oh i meant to delete that i mean some people could say well
02:31:34.640he meant to delete it to send another type of protection uh self-serving protection email to
02:31:40.540his lover lance twiggs but i i don't believe it it's like that he comes in he's admitted to what
02:31:45.980he's done uh you've seen the news i don't care if lance is on social media or not but i believe
02:31:50.460he is and i believe he knew earlier than than that and then he's like did you really do it and
02:31:54.800it's that part is implausible to me except for the fact that his testimony has to cover his own ass
02:31:59.860because you know above and beyond his use immunity he doesn't have blanket immunity and he needs to
02:32:05.320cover his own but while giving the prosecution what they need uh to go ahead and charge and
02:32:10.380and convict tyler robinson but no that part doesn't make sense to me and i i would like to
02:32:15.380know what ty uh lance twig's social media footprint is because i given their age given
02:32:20.680what they're into given their discord propensities i i don't think his social media footprint is is
02:32:25.240nothing and i'd love to know what it is i disagree with my team is telling me viva that they released
02:32:30.220the pictures of the shooter okay again none of us knew who that was we just saw the pictures of the
02:32:35.840shooter per the fbi at 10 a.m utah time on september 11th okay so would have been i think by
02:32:43.720this timeline right around when he was seeing tyler robinson in their apartment he says i saw
02:32:49.580him when i woke up he was walking around the house um so i mean they were probably released
02:32:56.920by the time he saw him uh and of course the night before he had received the text saying it was me
02:33:03.880I'm waiting to get my gun. I got to get my gun. It worked pretty good. Grandpa's gun got it done.
02:33:08.520It was only a two thousand dollar scope. I mean, you've been given a lot of details by Tyler,
02:33:11.800but I just don't I don't believe that just your lover has just committed a murder, a forgive the
02:33:19.500term, but sensational murder. And it's all over the news. There's a manhunt and, you know, everywhere
02:33:26.220the FBI's got your lover's picture out there. And he doesn't come back. Both of the lover's parents
02:33:30.340knew it was him and and you just say is it is it true what you texted me no you're gonna be like
02:33:37.260you're gonna know everything why why'd you do it what were you thinking you know now what are you
02:33:43.380gonna run and if you were in on it the conversation is gonna sound even different than that I don't
02:33:48.520know Dave Ehrenberg like you're for as a former prosecutor I would think this is a stone you'd
02:33:53.220want to keep turning like keep digging under that stone to see how far we go yeah and it's precisely
02:33:59.080the point that defense lawyers will seize upon to cast doubt on his credibility. But as my co-panelist
02:34:06.080said, this die is cast. I mean, this probable cause hearing is just for probable cause, not
02:34:10.240for beyond a reasonable doubt. They've got so much evidence. So really, this is about trying
02:34:14.480to get anything you can to make life miserable for the prosecutors, to force them to come to
02:34:18.720the table and take the death penalty off the table, out of the equation. So but no, we're not
02:34:24.500there we're not there yeah that's for sure um it it is it is interesting uh is is that true you
02:34:30.520know that that does sound like twigs is exaggerating uh what he said at the time it does seem like
02:34:36.200that's not exactly what he said of course it doesn't or or under exaggerating like under under
02:34:42.640plays all right yeah yeah under yeah he's downplaying what happened between the two of
02:34:46.720them yeah yeah but you know they'll say well you know he was they're so shocked this is the kind
02:34:51.820I think they say. But yes, fair enough. None of it, though, cast any doubt upon who did it and the fact that Tyler Robinson has so much information, including confessions, repeated confessions against him, that he's going down for this.
02:35:04.320But fair point. The extent of which Twiggs is involved in this is still an open question, even though the authorities apparently, including the FBI, think that he was not involved.
02:35:15.160And that's why they're going to go to the mat with him as the key witness with use immunity, thinking that he wasn't even an accessory.
02:35:20.320but you know i'm open to information if we find otherwise megan i guess i'm the only one megan
02:35:26.520i'm the only one out of four here who thinks that it's possible that it happened exactly as twig
02:35:33.280said now i also would not be shocked if it didn't happen that way but i'm picturing him saying wait
02:35:40.660is it true what you told me is that true i i totally can picture that and i also don't see
02:35:46.160the prosecutors wanting to push any further, especially now because his testimony has been
02:35:52.540put into evidence. This is what his testimony is. And I don't know that they're going to push any
02:35:57.020further because it advances the state's case and it's already been done. So I'm just saying I see
02:36:05.380it play out that way. And I mean, how you would have handled it. And, you know, you don't know
02:36:10.760what's in these people we are we are nothing like these people so when he says did you you know is
02:36:16.320did you do it is that is that was it true what you said whatever he said yeah i see him saying that
02:36:21.520it is that that he allegedly got the text message the night of then uh tyler doesn't come back that
02:36:28.220evening and then comes back in the morning when the news you know has been fleshed up
02:36:31.860you know it doesn't at this point it doesn't matter from tyler's perspective the real question
02:36:36.300is whether or not lance had a greater involvement or anybody else and then you know to go all the
02:36:41.540way back to joe kent and his investigation or the rumors that he requested the cash patel look into
02:36:46.660foreign elements you know the idea that they wouldn't want to complicate the prosecution
02:36:51.140against tyler robinson by further implicating lance twigs is is a theory that others have said
02:36:57.300is one of the reasons why uh they may not have dug deeper or pursued investigations into lance
02:37:03.660twigs because it might complicate uh the the conviction that they want to get of at least
02:37:08.420tyler robinson in this case right um and there was some great frustration in the public eye
02:37:14.160that it doesn't look like every stone had been unturned in terms of who else might have been
02:37:17.860involved in this plot and you know who else was on those discord chats but no to me it doesn't i
02:37:22.960mean again i i all of this is beyond uh human comprehension from anybody with a with a moral
02:37:28.600compass um but i just i don't believe what lance is saying necessarily oh was it really you i don't
02:37:33.640To me, it's more like it's to me, it's more like let's cover this up and let's try to find a way to get you out of the country.
02:37:38.300And, you know, I didn't do anything. So I'll worry about that later.
02:37:41.240That's how I would see it playing out the next day. Not I'm shocked and stunned.
02:37:44.920No, it's a holy crap. I think I knew that this was coming and I knew since last night.
02:37:50.700I'm not even that. I'm pretty sure I knew that this was coming.
02:37:52.920I did know this was coming and I told these other lunatics on Discord about it.
02:37:56.840That's why they've been posting messages saying, wait until you see September 10th and what happens.
02:38:01.980And then when September 10th came, I told you, you know, like big news is coming at Utah Valley University.
02:38:08.440You wait. And then it came. Bro, that was it.
02:38:11.880You know, it's like I I have to believe that the FBI looked into each and every one of those and somehow came away convinced that that was just meaningless talk.
02:38:24.460I mean, I'm going to guess this is what the FBI would have told us.
02:38:27.160but there's because there's been no indictments, you know, Viva, that like nobody else got
02:38:32.040indicted beyond Lance Twiggs. And it could have been Tyler or Lance Twiggs who would have told
02:38:37.240them some such a thing on here. But there's no way the FBI didn't talk to the people who posted
02:38:42.940those messages. I agree. And then, you know, if you say, well, I trust the FBI did a thorough
02:38:50.040investigation, you'll be accused of gobbling up what they refer to as Fedslop these days.
02:38:55.620I know. But the problem is like to me, if they did not go in and examine each and every person in all of those discord chats, whatever the hell they call it, it's either dereliction of duty or, you know, they don't want to know who was in on those chats.
02:39:13.080They did. I asked Kash Patel about that directly on this show. I asked him about whether they'd be doing that. And he said, yes, I just he's not an idiot. He wants to solve this case. He wants anybody responsible. And I realize if you're if you if you think the government is behind this, you're saying, what are you saying? No, he doesn't. He wants to. He's part of the cover up. But I don't believe that.
02:39:34.600I think he wants to solve this case and I would love he would love to indict anybody responsible or who had foreknowledge and had a role.
02:39:41.560But if he found people with foreknowledge but no role, we deserve to know that, too, because while they may not be indictable, as you guys point out, there's no good Samaritan rule.
02:39:51.660They they're totally subjected to scorn.
02:39:55.120They are they should receive all of our scorn.
02:40:00.440What if somebody hires one of these lunatics?
02:40:02.500Like, who the fuck are they? I'm sorry, but from the beginning, I've wanted to know who are they?
02:40:08.660They were predicting his murder when it happened. They said, told you.
02:40:13.480And we've just been asked to kind of look the other way.
02:40:15.740And I feel like we've been asked to look the other way on Lance Twiggs, too.
02:40:18.840Maybe it's because they would preserve his credibility. I don't know. I don't care.
02:40:22.580But let me read you this quickly. This is this is new from the text message.
02:40:26.660And three hours ago, there was an there was an officer with a canine walking nearby the area, hoping that pooch has a bad sniffer.
02:40:35.760I mean, there are reports that there was a bomb sniffing dog or gunpowder and he did not alert.
02:40:42.180And here's Tyler Robinson saying that I I'm wishing I had circled back and grabbed it as soon as I got to my vehicle, because it sounds like the police couldn't get in for a long while because of the traffic.
02:40:51.720Needless to say, I'm a be late coming home, my B.
02:40:54.660and his response is just stay safe that's that's lance i will says tyler i'm more worried about
02:41:02.260what my old man would do if i didn't bring back grandpa's rifle he's far scarier than any fed
02:41:07.320not gonna lie guess i'm just sitting in my car watching reels for another hour hoping this guy
02:41:12.080fucks off and then lance are you okay still i mean this is not like somebody who sounds like
02:41:19.620he's gonna call law enforcement and indeed he didn't call law enforcement right but it doesn't
02:41:24.520mean he's committing a crime right he he was being sympathetic to his lover and he was trying to
02:41:30.520support him and he shouldn't win any nice guy awards he's not going to win a good samaritan
02:41:34.880awards but to me i still lean more towards mark's side that twigs probably had little or nothing to
02:41:43.920do with this and i did think what he said on the stand was credible so that's my take of it i don't
02:41:50.620If I'm sitting next to Doug and he's engraving bullets, I'm going to know what's on them.
02:41:56.400I mean, I'm just going to put myself out there right now and say, I will know.
02:41:59.760If dear Doug ever got to a point where he's engraving bullets, he will go to great lengths not to let you know what he's doing.