The Megyn Kelly Show - The Full BOMBSHELL Lance Twiggs Video, Plus New Robinson Texts Revealed, with Geragos, Murphy, Aronberg, Eiglarsh, and Frei ｜ Ep. 1356

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00:01:00.480 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:01:12.180 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. We are in day four of the

00:01:17.120 Tyler Robinson preliminary hearing. It's happening right now, the man accused of murdering our friend

00:01:22.900 Charlie Kirk with the most anticipated moment of the entire week expected any moment now that is

00:01:28.840 the recorded interview between prosecutors and Lance Twiggs, the alleged trans furry lover and

00:01:36.260 roommate of Tyler Robinson. This has been a major point of contention between the prosecution and

00:01:42.060 the defense. They have spent hours arguing over what would be played, how much of it and how much

00:01:48.380 the public will get to see. The lawyer for Erica Kirk and her family has even now gotten involved

00:01:55.940 filing this document demanding that they be able to see and hear what the court is going to see

00:02:03.780 and hear. There's some restriction on what they're going to put out to the media, but Charlie's widow

00:02:09.900 would like to know what the evidence is in her husband's murder case. It is ridiculous how weak 0.52

00:02:16.780 this judge has been. He was only put on the bench last May. You can tell he's not confident. 0.94

00:02:25.720 He is overly indulgent of the defense's objections, whereas a seasoned jurist would

00:02:31.420 have dismissed most of them out of hand. Noted, overruled, let's move on. He takes every single

00:02:37.600 objection as seriously as if the US Supreme Court is going to weigh in on every single one.

00:02:44.200 He doesn't have the confidence to put the ones that are serious and actually could get him in this trial in trouble in one category and the ones that are obviously perfunctory and meant just to preserve a record in a different category.

00:02:56.920 And it's delaying this proceeding interminably.

00:02:59.880 It is unfair.

00:03:01.040 And by the way, he is treating the Kirk family like they are bystanders there with absolutely no stake in this thing.

00:03:09.940 So they've filed this motion saying under Utah law, the crime victims families have a right. We have a literally we have a literal right under Utah law to be informed of, to be present at and to be heard at important criminal justice hearings related to the victim.

00:03:29.100 And they say that that is no that right is toothless if we're not allowed to see the evidence. How can we be excluded from the people who can see the evidence? The right to be present is hollow, they write, if the victim or his representative is physically in the room but is prevented from seeing the evidence the court is receiving.

00:03:49.400 A right to attend that does not include the ability to perceive what is happening is not meaningful presence at all.

00:03:57.340 Consistent with statutory command that victims' rights be protected no less vigorously than the defendants, the victim's family's presence must be a real one.

00:04:07.120 The ability to observe in real time the evidence presented in the courtroom they are entitled to occupy.

00:04:13.720 This judge is taking it under advisement.

00:04:16.440 He's going to look at it.

00:04:17.260 OK, right now at 12.03 Eastern Time, they are still haggling over which lines from the Lance Twig testimony will be removed from the public's hearing.

00:04:29.280 We're not we're not going to see the video. The defense won that objection. Why? Because they show him certain exhibits that makes no sense that they're not in evidence yet.

00:04:39.120 Okay, you could redact the video for those portions. Why don't we get any video? It's absurd. It makes no sense. It's a preliminary hearing. You can have a witness take the stand and look at non-introduced exhibits.

00:04:52.740 And by the way, now the defense, our friend Brian Enten is saying, oh, many lawyers are objection are saying that that that this is somehow a fatal flaw, potentially that that Lance Twiggs wasn't cross-examined in this video and won't be able to be cross-examined.

00:05:08.200 That's not true. Witnesses, you're not entitled to cross-examination at a preliminary hearing.

00:05:13.680 That's not something that you necessarily get. That's not going to clear this deal.

00:05:17.640 Well, there's the prosecution is not doing anything wrong and the judge is treating them like they're trying to pull a fast one here, indulging every every single banal baseless objection by the team representing the defendant that they make.

00:05:34.960 it's just maddening. So as they rail over each word that we will or will not be able to hear

00:05:42.940 in the audio-only portion of Lance Twiggs' testimony, we are going to do a deep dive for

00:05:49.300 you on Lance Twiggs, the man at the center of this hearing today. So we're going to get you

00:05:56.960 up to speed on him, and then as they bring us his testimony, we'll take that in real time.

00:06:01.740 In September, a popular YouTuber by the name of Tom Swanson, who's known as Turkey Tom,

00:06:10.360 that's his moniker, at the platform, dropped a bombshell report about Lance Twigs and Tyler

00:06:15.900 Robinson. Swanson claims that a friend of Robinson's and Twigs reached out to him,

00:06:22.980 providing him with new details about their relationship, what life was like inside their

00:06:27.280 apartment and the events leading up to the shooting. First, some background on Tom Swanson.

00:06:32.620 He's very popular on YouTube. He has over 1.5 million subscribers. He puts out long form

00:06:37.500 documentary style videos about online controversies, mostly to do with Internet and gaming culture.

00:06:43.600 And that is clearly how this person found him. In September, he covered Charlie's murder in a

00:06:49.840 40 minute video that he posted to YouTube. Watch who was actually behind the assassination a whole

00:06:56.300 day and a half after the shooting, on the evening of the 11th, the pictures of the killer in a cap

00:07:01.040 and dark glasses were released. One of Tyler's friends, who was in the same Discord server with

00:07:05.800 about 18 other people, sent the picture to their chat, jokingly remarking that it looked like

00:07:10.480 Tyler and asking him where he was at. Tyler responded saying that his doppelganger did it,

00:07:15.860 to which someone else sarcastically replied, Tyler killed Charlie. Clearly, the mere concept

00:07:21.140 of Tyler doing such a thing was something his acquaintances wouldn't even consider. He was a

00:07:26.160 seemingly intelligent guy, as his mother proudly bragged on Facebook about his 4.0 GPA. He was a

00:07:32.180 mild-mannered endorsement who gamed a lot. And although he wasn't a Republican like the rest

00:07:36.740 of his family, he also wasn't even registered to vote and didn't express his opinions that much.

00:07:42.900 Swanson says after that, someone familiar with both Robinson and Twiggs reached out to him.

00:07:47.920 This person wanted to remain anonymous, he says, but says that they have been friends

00:07:51.680 with Robinson and Twiggs for six years and that this source, this friend, counted them as close

00:07:57.460 friends of his. Swanson says this person provided Swanson with a multitude of information to verify

00:08:02.780 this person's identity. They also provided photos from inside Twiggs and Robinson's apartment,

00:08:10.520 drawings allegedly made by Lance Twiggs, and Discord archives of three servers that this

00:08:16.340 person claims that he was in, along with Twiggs and Robinson. Swanson says, to his knowledge,

00:08:22.540 the only other people who have the Discord servers outside of the people who were in them

00:08:26.760 is the FBI. Now, we reached out to Swanson, and he stood by his story. So to be clear,

00:08:34.140 this is Swanson's reporting. We have not independently verified the messages

00:08:37.540 sent by the anonymous friend. We did reach out to the FBI, who told us they do not comment

00:08:42.660 on ongoing investigations. The Swanson report was picked up by various outlets online, but others

00:08:49.020 questioned it, some specifically wondering whether Swanson was being used by someone,

00:08:54.100 possibly the government, to spread information they wanted into the public domain. Fair question.

00:09:01.020 We have no way of verifying or dismissing those suspicions, but since the court has decided to

00:09:06.340 allow such secrecy around the Twigs video, we decided to err on the side of more disclosure

00:09:11.920 and let viewers decide of what value this is.

00:09:16.880 Twigs has refused to speak with the media, including us.

00:09:20.020 The Daily Mail reports that he and his family have now moved to Texas,

00:09:26.600 where the mail caught up with Twigs en route to or from a Taco Bell,

00:09:30.900 and they report that he refused to speak with them.

00:09:33.860 Swanson, meantime, said he did reach out to Twigs after getting this report from the alleged friend

00:09:39.000 and reports that Twiggs told him he could not say anything due to the ongoing investigations.

00:09:44.600 The Megyn Kelly Show also attempted to connect with Lance Twiggs and with Swanson's source,

00:09:49.440 but we received no response. A family member of Lance Twiggs did speak with Brian Enten of News

00:09:56.920 Nation back in January. Here is what she said just to set this up about Twiggs and Robinson

00:10:03.180 and those now infamous texts that allegedly were exchanged right after the shooting.

00:10:09.000 there's text messages between tyler and lance um where they're texting after the event a lot

00:10:16.920 of people find them unusual the world that they were in like this gaming world like that was a

00:10:24.360 normal way that they kind of spoke that this wasn't an abnormal the way they spoke wasn't

00:10:30.980 abnormal the fbi has said all along that twigs is cooperating with the authorities first we'll

00:10:37.920 start with what this anonymous friend said about Lance Twiggs. We did not censor or redact these

00:10:43.740 texts. Swanson said he did censor parts of the texts in order to keep his sources identity

00:10:49.320 private. The friend was a wealth of information. For example, he told Swanson that Robinson and

00:10:55.500 Twiggs apartment would, quote, drastically shift from clean to super dirty, depending on the state

00:11:01.080 of Lance's mood. He said they would have friends over, but everyone would kind of get weirded out

00:11:06.620 by all the trash. The friend said twigs basically had layers of wires, random Timu trinkets,

00:11:14.240 decorations, random art projects, clothes, and empty alcohol containers everywhere. And if anyone

00:11:20.100 touched it, he'd get livid. The friend provided this photo, allegedly from inside the apartment.

00:11:26.360 He said twigs would have piles and piles of random messes like this all over the home,

00:11:31.180 but usually it was much worse than what you see in this photo.

00:11:36.020 For the listening audience, it's a long table like you might set up at a Thanksgiving dinner

00:11:40.700 with just wires and electronics and a mess all over it.

00:11:46.700 The friend went on writing,

00:11:48.520 Tyler, quote, was always really level-headed and easygoing,

00:11:52.640 but Lance could be anywhere from too depressed to talk to,

00:11:55.480 to manic, wide-eyes, crazy person, end quote.

00:11:59.100 The friend said Tyler Robinson loved to talk about hunting, camping, and gaming,

00:12:03.880 but that Lance Twiggs had a different personality.

00:12:07.120 If he became too depressed, he would take the day off work and just scroll online while vaping.

00:12:12.060 He said Twiggs also had a habit of doing experiments in the kitchen using Tupperware to grow mold.

00:12:18.660 He also accused Twiggs of doing all kinds of drugs, weed, LSD, DMT, and shrooms.

00:12:24.820 He said Twiggs consumed, quote, alcoholic levels of alcohol. DMT is a hallucinogenic

00:12:31.620 tryptamine drug that produces a brief but intense visual and auditory hallucinogenic experience.

00:12:37.640 The friend gave details about Twiggs' alleged relationship with his family,

00:12:42.080 writing, quote, Lance has always been a little weird and quirky, but never really crazy.

00:12:46.560 He was constantly arguing with his mom every time he saw her

00:12:49.380 and then ranting about Republicans and Mormons when he got home.

00:12:53.200 swanson reports that the friend told him that one day twigs announced he was transgender

00:12:59.700 the friend did not give a time frame of when this exchange happened writing quote he told me he was

00:13:05.380 trans and that it wouldn't change anything and that i could even use whatever pronouns and he

00:13:10.160 wouldn't care end quote the friend said after twigs came out as transgender twigs started to 0.74

00:13:16.420 clean up the house and became quote mostly normal the friend group returned to having in-person 0.85

00:13:21.980 gaming nights. And the friend said at first he didn't realize that there was a romantic

00:13:26.040 relationship developing between Twiggs and Tyler Robinson, writing, quote, one of my gym buddies was

00:13:32.020 the first to pick up on Tyler and Lance being really close. I was in denial for months because

00:13:36.840 I thought Tyler was straight. And also, I kind of did not want it to be true. Eventually, I kind of

00:13:42.440 snapped out of it like the ninth time I saw them asleep and cuddling on the couch. The friend said

00:13:48.000 at one point he became uncomfortable seeing the pair constantly making out. The friend said they

00:13:53.700 started noticing changes in twigs as the presidential election of 2024 got closer.

00:14:00.000 He claims twigs started complaining about people staring at him, which the friend thought was weird

00:14:05.700 since twigs did not care what pronouns people even used for him and had not done much to mask

00:14:10.500 his biological sex besides changing his hairstyle and wearing mascara. Regarding Tyler Robinson,

00:14:15.920 quote, Tyler wouldn't really get political until after the election. He'd sometimes just casually

00:14:22.260 bring up the latest thing Trump had done and complain about what it would do to the country,

00:14:26.040 but in a very level-headed way, end quote. Then he continued, quote, after the election,

00:14:31.880 they became a lot more political, but not to an extremist level. By this point,

00:14:35.960 I could safely say Lance and Tyler were some flavor of left wing, but never anything I thought

00:14:41.780 was like dangerous. The friend also describes twigs, quote, beginning to grow breasts. The

00:14:48.720 friend does not give a timeframe of when this happened, but it seems it would have been

00:14:52.160 in late summer, early fall, 2025 writing quote a couple months before we noticed Lance had been

00:14:59.440 growing breasts and said that he'd been taking black market HRT, which I do not know what that

00:15:05.080 would entail, but I think it was making him very erratic. By black market HRT, we believe he's

00:15:11.740 referring to hormone replacement medications obtained without a prescription or medical

00:15:15.800 supervision. Obviously, that would come with all sorts of risks, including the drugs being

00:15:19.740 counterfeit, corrupted, or the wrong dosage. The friend said that in January 2025, the group held

00:15:26.580 another in-person gaming night. Twigs threw cards and seemed erratic. Writing, quote,

00:15:33.560 Lance had gone upstairs and gone into full tantrum mode and was thrashing around on the

00:15:38.120 floor while Tyler tried to calm him down. This would be, by our count, nine months before

00:15:43.740 Charlie's murder. After that, Lance went fucking mental, this is in quotes, and he'd be super 0.98

00:15:49.500 wide-eyed with either a loopy grin or a rictus grin, like the fucking Joker, depending on his 0.99

00:15:54.800 mood. The friend wrote that Twigs began making weird drawings while giggling, performing more 0.98

00:16:01.380 experiments and hardly ever slept. The friend telling Swanson, quote, the experiments got scarier

00:16:07.080 too, like jugs of water with whisks full of aluminum foil that had two copper wires coming

00:16:13.180 out of them. The friend also sent Swanson several photos of drawings he claims twigs made and left

00:16:19.560 all over the apartment. In this one, you see the drawing reads stabilize and calm down. In this

00:16:27.080 one near the crease, it reads, I'm alone. The friend sent Swanson numerous photos of the

00:16:33.920 scribbles. It's unclear when these photos were taken, either before or after Charlie's murder,

00:16:39.120 we don't know. But you see the drawings are on post-it notes, inside journals, books,

00:16:44.120 and letter paper. The friend, Swanson claims, told him that while these drawings look creepy,

00:16:49.880 what was scarier was how twigs would giggle as he drew. The friend writing, quote,

00:16:55.880 if I were religious, I would have called an exorcist. The smile was so fucking scary. 0.98

00:17:02.140 Twigs also apparently started using ChatGPT to solve equations backwards. The friend said the 0.96

00:17:08.540 chats went on forever and that Tyler Robinson said at one point that Twigs had been up for

00:17:13.340 three straight days talking to ChatGPT. The friend writing to Swanson, again, that's Turkey Tom from

00:17:20.740 whom we're getting this reporting, quote, twigs would sometimes just be sobbing in Tyler's arms

00:17:26.120 and Tyler would be rocking him back and forth. We all thought Tyler was a trooper for putting

00:17:31.060 up with Lance in that state. The friend also sent Swanson a photo of a condom on a bathroom sink and

00:17:38.540 wrote, quote, crazily enough, while Lance was like that, Tyler was still hitting that. Obviously,

00:17:44.580 he means the pair was having sex. The friend said that at some point prior to Charlie's murder,

00:17:50.740 Lance Twiggs had apparently begun seeing a psychologist writing, quote, we all thought

00:17:55.740 Lance would be OK because he had Tyler, who was basically his handler at this point to take care

00:18:02.400 of him. But then Twiggs got in a fight with his grandfather and his car was taken away.

00:18:09.500 The friend continued, quote, I imagine Lance was just alone with Tyler in the apartment, 0.97

00:18:14.840 just driving Tyler fucking crazy. I'd be hard pressed to stay sane while living alone with 0.81

00:18:19.640 Lance while he's like that. Swanson claims the friend told Swanson that the friend moved away

00:18:25.400 but would still have discord calls with Twiggs and Robinson, writing, quote, Lance joined and

00:18:31.100 would say like one thing, then be silent, and Tyler would talk just normally. Tyler even joined

00:18:36.900 the call like two weeks before the assassination and acted completely normal, end quote. The friend

00:18:43.400 also addressed Robinson's alleged confession messages to twigs. In the messages, Robinson

00:18:50.000 refers to twigs as my love, which many people have remarked sounds odd for two Gen Z young men.

00:18:58.560 Swanson reports that the friend told him it is true that Robinson would use that term of affection

00:19:03.780 for twigs, writing for the record, Tyler 100 percent calls Lance my love when they are talking

00:19:09.340 alone. That more than anything makes those texts real to me. End quote. The friend Swanson claims

00:19:16.700 concluded by writing about Robinson's demeanor after Charlie's shooting. Quote, after talking

00:19:21.860 to another friend, apparently right after he did the shooting, he joined a bunch of different

00:19:26.580 discord calls asking if anyone had seen the news while breathing heavily. And literally the next

00:19:31.320 day he was in the call, just chatting with people playing one of his puzzle games. As we mentioned,

00:19:38.360 the friend also appears to have sent Tom Swanson discord logs. They date back to 2020. Most of them

00:19:45.620 are just back and forth jokes, but one of them is dark. When you see these on the screen, Tyler

00:19:51.060 Robinson is zealous monkey. Lance Twigs is Fluxolotl. Any other name in the conversation

00:19:57.880 has been blacked out by Tom Swanson. A friend writes, quote, they should remake snakes on a

00:20:02.940 plane. But instead of snakes killing people on a plane, dot, dot, dot, Robinson responds,

00:20:10.100 snakes on a peen. Twigs responds, gross. The friend responds, quote, nobody said gross when

00:20:17.240 you said you wanted to F your two-year-old cousin, Lance, end quote. Obviously, we don't know the

00:20:23.840 context of that message or whether Twigs ever made such a statement. Maybe the friend was

00:20:28.460 just joking around, but it's obviously disturbing. The friend who Swanson says sent him these

00:20:34.680 messages made no allegations, even remotely like that, in his own messages about twigs.

00:20:41.500 It's unclear if the friend in the Discord chat is the same one who contacted Swanson,

00:20:46.640 but there are a few more notable messages, and they include this one from Tyler Robinson. 0.85

00:20:51.460 It was written in 2020, and it reads, quote, I wish at least shit like anti-vax 0.97

00:20:56.860 wasn't protected under freedom of speech because it's speech that actively harms people. 0.95

00:21:03.500 It's very interesting.

00:21:04.680 He's starting to make distinctions between speech that's okay and speech that's not okay

00:21:10.000 and harmful speech being on the not okay list.

00:21:16.560 Robinson also took issue with being called a furry by the friend back in 2020, who also

00:21:21.060 took issue with being called a furry by the friend back in 2020, writes this. 1.00

00:21:26.620 The country's going to shit. I told someone I wasn't going to watch their anime one time 0.99

00:21:30.380 and get called a goddamn furry. So he wrote there. He didn't appreciate that. 0.99

00:21:37.540 But then, of course, he goes on to date a furry and worse. I'm going to get to it in a second.

00:21:43.320 In 2023, Robinson allegedly wrote about the trade school he was then attending,

00:21:47.260 quote, second day of electrical school. We're doing basic math, like learning fractions and

00:21:51.800 shit. I paid tuition for this. In July 2024, Robinson purportedly wrote about the assassination 0.99

00:21:58.360 attempt on Donald Trump's life. Quote, snowflake liberals can't shoot straight because they're too

00:22:03.340 busy being gay. It's very interesting that he's lamenting anti-vax speak in 2020 and in 2024 0.98

00:22:11.020 talks about snowflake liberals who can't shoot straight. In September of 2025,

00:22:18.360 five were told he shot Charlie Kirk because some hate can't be negotiated out.

00:22:25.340 In June of last year, Twigs also posted about a no kings protest against President Trump,

00:22:32.280 asking if anyone wanted to go to it. It's unclear if he went or if anyone responded.

00:22:38.020 Tom Swanson also detailed some of the other online accounts belonging to Robinson,

00:22:42.460 who, according to Swanson, had been railing against being called a furry in 2020,

00:22:46.280 but was now listing his pronouns as they them and mentioning a furry website watch

00:22:52.120 Tyler had a few blurbs of unusual online presence that I hadn't seen for example he had a deviant

00:22:58.580 art under his older handle craftin247 where he lists himself as they slash them it's not possible

00:23:05.200 for this account to belong to someone else that created it after the assassination as it was

00:23:10.100 created two years ago then we have another account with the same exact handle this time on fur

00:23:15.180 Affinity, but there doesn't seem to be any significant activity on it, just like on DeviantArt.

00:23:19.860 And for those of you who don't know, Fur Affinity is like the furry website. It's the number one

00:23:24.380 furry website. Okay. Then there's this final message. This is the full alleged discord chat

00:23:31.120 of Robinson confessing to murdering Charlie Kirk to the group, which investigative journalist Ken

00:23:36.800 Klippenstein reported in the days following the shooting. Reading from the bottom up, September

00:23:42.520 10th. Friend. Charlie Kirk got shot. Dead. Another friend. I just saw the video. Holy shit. Rest in

00:23:49.900 peace, I guess. Bro didn't deserve to go out like that. Sad. Someone appearing to be Robinson then

00:23:56.120 writes the next day. Hey guys, I have bad news for you all. It was me at UVU yesterday. I'm sorry for

00:24:03.140 all of this. I'm surrendering through a sheriff friend in a few moments. Thanks for all the good

00:24:09.520 times and laughs. You've all been so amazing. Thank you all for everything. The next day,

00:24:15.340 a friend writes, hey, everyone, if you have not seen the news yet, Tyler's post above is true.

00:24:19.940 He was taken into custody earlier today for the shooting of Charlie Kirk. Regardless of the

00:24:24.200 horrible actions that took place, you must take this moment to remember that God is a living and

00:24:28.760 loving God who loves all his children. God calls sinners to be his saints. And I ask that you all

00:24:34.740 take a quiet moment to pray for Tyler and his repentance. While Charlie Kirk's politics were

00:24:39.560 not acceptable to some, I ask that we all say a prayer for him and his family during these

00:24:44.360 confusing times. Love you all. God bless. And of course, the FBI has alleged that Tyler Robinson

00:24:53.460 did turn himself in through the help of a family friend who was a retired deputy sheriff.

00:25:00.460 The FBI has said that Twiggs is being treated as a significant and essential witness and

00:25:07.300 that he is not a suspect.

00:25:09.540 And that's certainly going to be center stage moments from now as he speaks out in this

00:25:17.200 much objected to courtroom video over which they continue to haggle now 24 minutes after

00:25:24.700 the hour.

00:25:25.180 um erica kirk's lawyers they represent the family not just erica charlie's parents too

00:25:33.280 and his sister presumably are up and down on their feet throughout this morning's proceedings

00:25:40.860 trying to convince this judge to see reason he is too soft he's too indecisive he is too indulgent

00:25:49.860 That's my take on it.

00:25:51.440 We're going to bring in our panel and talk about Lance Twiggs and his testimony.

00:25:55.900 And as soon as they begin playing the audio, we will take it live.

00:25:59.880 We begin with Mark Garagos and Matt Murphy, the hosts of In the Well, which you can find

00:26:03.700 at MK True Crime.

00:26:06.200 That's a podcast that you should Google, but it's just our MK True Crime channel on which

00:26:10.440 we have lots of great legal podcasts following big legal news of the day, including, of course,

00:26:15.640 this case.

00:26:16.360 when you sign your insurance policy for some brokers that's the finish line handshake they

00:26:22.820 get their commission and then they're kind of done with you you may not hear from them again

00:26:26.460 until it's time for renewal in which case once again they're your best friend that's annoying

00:26:30.160 but your business runs all year and so do the gaps and the risk and things happen and this is

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00:27:26.480 agency. So Matt Murphy, what do you make of the, well, the profile that emerges from that lengthy

00:27:34.600 report and also what we're about to hear in court and the nonstop haggling by Judge Ito. 0.86

00:27:43.520 Sorry, Garagos. Go ahead, Matt. Well, I see this kind of in the long in the long form,

00:27:51.860 Megan. I always appreciated careful judges. And I'm going to go a little against the grain here.

00:27:57.080 um this is there's a famous quote um it was a supreme court justice i don't remember his name

00:28:05.120 but somebody said it seems like all you do in the supreme court is you split hairs

00:28:08.460 and he said yeah that's what we do we split hairs we distinguish the indistinguishable

00:28:13.580 and we chop logic and that's what we do these rulings are are all about the long game every

00:28:21.280 single one of these things is going to go up and receive the highest level of appellate scrutiny

00:28:25.640 And again, this is just a preliminary hearing. If I had a nickel for every time I've seen Charlie Kirk trial on the Internet right now, this is just a prelim. All it is is it's termination of probable cause.

00:28:39.760 And this judge is trying to be careful. And he's he's indulging the defense because this is an easy way to go through and kind of throw the defense some bones that won't have any impact on the long term proceedings.

00:28:56.820 And this is these are all these are all cheap gimmies to the defense as far as I'm concerned. So I think he's being very careful. I was surprised to learn that he hasn't been on the bench that long. But I think he's doing a pretty good job.

00:29:09.160 I wasn't. He's too indulgent. A more seasoned judge would say noted, overruled, moved up and move on like every single objection.

00:29:19.020 And this defense lawyer objects to everything. Yeah. So everything.

00:29:23.840 So I mean, I was commenting on this the other day and he he wants to hear argument on everything to the point where the defense lawyer has no argument.

00:29:30.920 Repeatedly, she's had to say, I stand on my earlier argument. She can't. She has nothing to add.

00:29:36.800 she's just trying to slow it up and meanwhile erica kirk has no rights in there no rights

00:29:42.640 notwithstanding the utah law it's very aggravating that she and his parents can't even see the

00:29:50.640 evidence that's being shown that i'm not talking about the stuff that gets redacted because they've

00:29:54.900 decided it's too prejudicial to you know be considered for the prelim the stuff that is

00:29:59.300 being admitted but not shown to the media she's being treated like media she's not media she's

00:30:05.000 the victim the parents are the victims why don't they get to see it so this is uh this is what's

00:30:10.020 known as marcy's law uh megan so california has the same thing and mark did you know that it's

00:30:14.280 the same amendment to the to the utah constitution it's article 1 section 28 which i don't know how

00:30:19.920 that works statutorily but it's literally the exact same statute with the exact same numbers

00:30:24.340 megan so i do marcy's law representation on behalf of victims particularly in sexual assault

00:30:29.260 case. So I'm really familiar with this. And you're right. It is. And their comments about it being

00:30:35.860 toothless. It is what is known as a right without a remedy. Victims have rights. It's recognized.

00:30:41.520 But the person, the only people that can appeal it are the defense. So once again, the court has

00:30:46.800 to be really careful about that because every single one of these things is going to go up.

00:30:51.380 And the Utah Supreme Court has already weighed in. And this is all going to run through the

00:30:56.000 10th circuit. What the judge is doing, I think, is he is ensuring that this thing withstands.

00:31:02.400 He knows how strong the evidence is. He's going to bind him over. He's going to go to trial.

00:31:07.280 He's going to be found guilty and he's going to be sentenced to death. And that's what this is

00:31:11.880 all about. It's so the case doesn't come back and he doesn't have to put the family through it

00:31:15.940 again. Like my Rodney Alcala case, we had to try that three times and the victim's family had to

00:31:20.600 three times which is devastating for for a family i would caution doing marcy's law work myself i

00:31:28.760 would caution their marcy's law attorneys like you don't you want to speak up for the victims

00:31:33.720 you want to make sure their voices are heard but you don't want to actually interfere with the

00:31:38.100 process and force the judge into making a ruling that's going to get the case dismissed the time

00:31:43.120 for the defense showing erica kirk the exhibits and mr and mrs kirk the exhibits is not going to

00:31:49.200 get this no the time that's ridiculous i agree it's not going to there's no reason to exclude

00:31:54.040 them from to treat them like press they're not press here's forget my word first of all and the

00:31:59.420 other thing i've just got to say it's it's it's a bone of contention the judge continues to call her

00:32:03.960 miss kirk she is not miss kirk she is mrs kirk she was very notably married to charlie kirk that's

00:32:12.220 why she's there she's the mother of his children she's his widow show some respect get it right

00:32:17.500 Like, yes, it's the same way judges should learn how to like in Idaho, how the judge still couldn't pronounce, you know, Madison Mogan's name and Zanna Cronodal.

00:32:26.040 Right. All the way up to the end. It's like learn the names of the victims and their survivors.

00:32:32.160 If you're going to say them as the judge, she's not a miss. He's not even saying Miss half the time.

00:32:36.940 He's saying Miss. It's it's annoying. And most women who take their husband's name or even just become married.

00:32:42.940 I'm fine when people call me Mrs. Brunt

00:32:45.580 even though I didn't take Doug's last name

00:32:47.220 the Mrs. is an honorarium

00:32:49.640 that is meaningful to you

00:32:50.820 it's an honor to your husband

00:32:53.220 and to the union that you have

00:32:54.360 and especially in these circumstances

00:32:55.660 I know he's not doing it intentionally

00:32:57.120 he's just on my last nerve

00:33:00.100 Mark, I want to bring you in

00:33:01.440 let me finish that thought

00:33:02.720 no, it's Mark's turn

00:33:03.920 but listen, I've got to play for you

00:33:05.860 Erica's and the Kirk's family lawyer

00:33:09.200 okay, this is him arguing

00:33:11.260 he's fired up this morning take a listen and we appreciate the court is trying to balance here but

00:33:17.220 the kirk family's waited 10 months for this hearing and they have a right to be here and

00:33:23.940 they have a right to hear the evidence they have a right to see and feel what's going on in this

00:33:28.460 courtroom just like and they want to understand judge what you are what you are viewing they want

00:33:32.940 to see the evidence and we understand you have to balance but at a minimum this courtroom needs to

00:33:40.500 be open for the for for the evidence to be displayed openly in this courtroom for them to

00:33:45.440 see it the utah constitution gives them the right to be here and to be here and not to see the

00:33:50.920 evidence what's the point of being here we ask you to let the evidence be seen in the courtroom

00:33:58.360 please thank you for your time thank you counsel okay mark ergos go ahead you've been so patient

00:34:04.840 This may have been the most frustrating 30 minutes sitting here listening to this.

00:34:09.740 And you know I love you.

00:34:11.940 You know I adore you.

00:34:13.280 And you know I've known you forever.

00:34:14.860 Let me have it.

00:34:15.600 It's fine.

00:34:16.080 Yes, but you are so wrong on so many counts.

00:34:20.220 And at least Matt, who is the consummate gentleman, you know now why I always hated going up against him.

00:34:26.860 I loved him as a person, but he's lethal when you go up against him.

00:34:30.880 he i he articulated exactly what this judge is doing contrary to the characterization that this

00:34:38.360 is by the way i think lancido um before the oj case was one of if he was on the short list to

00:34:45.860 be in the california supreme court he was one of the most well-received judges i know that he got

00:34:51.400 caricatured by oj but lancido he ran you're just completely undermining your credibility before

00:34:57.520 I think nobody has ever done a full throated defense of who he was when before he did that

00:35:05.120 trial judge, by the way, to Matt's point, there's no way you watch this judge and you think he's

00:35:11.420 new on the bench. He's doing exactly. Yes, there is a way because I watched him and I said, this

00:35:17.560 guy's new on the bench. He doesn't have the confidence. And my team checked and he's been

00:35:20.480 on the bench since May. And I was right. There is a way it happened this morning. Come to this case

00:35:24.300 through the, even though you're not a former prosecutor, you look at this as kind of the

00:35:30.540 rabid prosecutorial viewpoint. And that is not the prison. Not true. Not in this case. I'll tell

00:35:37.860 you why. You're normally right about me. 100 percent. You're right. And all my instincts

00:35:41.840 are more prosecution oriented. However, in this case, my friend was killed. In this case, I know

00:35:46.480 the murder victim. And what I really want is for the right person to go to prison. And so I think

00:35:52.320 Tyler Robinson is the trigger man, no question.

00:35:54.620 But I am not closed minded to his defense.

00:35:58.440 I'm not.

00:35:58.940 I actually like because it's more what's most important to me here is getting it right.

00:36:02.220 Well, so look, you both those things can be right.

00:36:04.920 He can be the trigger man.

00:36:06.780 Number one.

00:36:07.460 Number two, this judge, to Matt's point, if this judge does not do what he's doing, you do not understand the legal colonoscopy that a death penalty conviction gets.

00:36:19.960 when matt talks about the 10th circuit you know what he's doing he's damning with faint praise

00:36:25.160 the ninth circuit because he's been on the receiving end of doing decades of law decades

00:36:31.920 of law at the ninth and the iac no i know the ninth is ridiculous but it has gotten better i

00:36:38.640 have to say we did a deep dive on this last year trump got a bunch of judges on that ninth circuit

00:36:42.960 court of appeals and it's not nearly as bad as it used to be but they're all generally not so great

00:36:47.440 they're all generally stacked with libs but what you have to think of the stack of libs is the

00:36:52.240 look i remember i'm old enough to remember when the liberals were the ones who challenged authority

00:36:57.360 as opposed to wanted uh totalitarian authority so that's that's kind of a an ironic situation but

00:37:04.860 the fact is this judge has to do what he's doing he's doing it very very adroitly and matt's point

00:37:12.800 also. And I found this out kind of ironically during Menendez last year. Marcy's law, which is

00:37:20.780 the victim's right, which is a constitutional right, is a right without a remedy. And when I

00:37:28.680 say in the Menendez case, it was on full display. I have argued for years that the victims are a 0.85

00:37:35.500 proxy for the prosecution, that when they support what the prosecution wants, the victims are right

00:37:42.500 they're front and center. When they don't support what the prosecution wants, they're kind of

00:37:47.120 dismissed. But there is no real enforcement mechanism for victims. It's a right that's

00:37:54.940 enshrined. And Matt, I did not know it's both Article 1, Section 28, and both constitutions.

00:38:00.760 It's an amazing kind of coincidence. But everything that lawyer is saying for Erica

00:38:08.500 Kirk is true to some extent, but it's not really accurate. When he says she's got a right to see

00:38:15.880 all these things, the prosecution is not limited in what they can show or share with her. So yes,

00:38:23.500 the courtroom is limited. Yes, the public is limited. That is so they don't have a challenge

00:38:29.520 later on to a tainted jury pool, because all judges usually kick the can down the road and

00:38:36.760 say, I'll solve that pretrial publicity or prejudice in jury selection. But if you've got

00:38:43.580 a jury selection and a jury pool that is completely tainted by all of the stuff that

00:38:49.560 is now inadmissible, you just make your job infinitely harder. So that he's doing the right

00:38:56.020 thing. To your point about Tyler Robinson, yes, there is probable cause right now to have Tyler

00:39:02.520 Robinson held to answer, which means bound over for trial. But I will tell you something else.

00:39:08.120 I'd love to hear Matt's thoughts. I think right now you could clearly get Mr. Twiggs or whatever

00:39:15.840 his name is also held to answer for trial as a co-defendant. There is more than enough probable

00:39:23.220 cause that's been developed so far on Twiggs. This idea that he's a subject and not a co-conspirator

00:39:30.060 is nonsense he'd be held to answer 99 times out of 99 in almost every preliminary hearing court

00:39:37.400 that i've ever been in i agree with you on twigs 100 but they've given him use immunity i'm sure

00:39:44.480 matt has a lot of thoughts on this exchange and wants to get in still on my miss versus mrs i know

00:39:49.480 but um yeah well why don't you do that and then i'll ask you about use immunity and why lance

00:39:54.440 twigs not being charged okay so number one um what mark was saying just to just to pick up on that

00:39:59.820 the time to sit down with erica kirk and the lawyers is in the prosecutor's office and to

00:40:04.220 show her everything so the argument that she's not receiving all the information is a completely

00:40:08.960 different one than what the public should see and again mark's exactly right that is so they avoid

00:40:15.200 the challenge long term of the jury pool was tainted because we saw that we saw that in

00:40:19.820 coberger right the jury pool's been tainted and they had to do a change of venue there there's

00:40:23.300 all kinds of problems that ensue from that the place and i've worked with victims megan every

00:40:28.700 murder case i did i sat down with the victim's family i gave my personal cell number i did that

00:40:33.160 for 21 years okay so i am i am pro-victim victim oriented i represent victims now but the place for

00:40:41.580 that is in the prosecutor's office not in not in a courtroom if it's going to create issues because

00:40:46.020 nothing is worse than a case coming back i think the misses versus miss of course that's a he's

00:40:51.040 misspeaking that's you know i i can't take issue with that you're right he should he should clean

00:40:56.480 it up but um look this is this is about the long game and in utah he's actually looking at the death

00:41:03.560 penalty and you want to be careful there's a crass uh joke that that i'm sure we've all heard

00:41:09.640 about the two bulls standing on the hill and it's probably inappropriate for me to share it but it's

00:41:14.300 like there's a young bull and an old bull and there's a whole bunch of cows down in the in the

00:41:18.200 pasture and the old bull um and the young bull says the old bull let's run down there and have 0.99

00:41:23.800 sex with one of those cows. And the old bull says, I got a better idea. Let's walk down there and 0.99

00:41:28.640 have sex with all of those cows. That's how, in a very crass way, you have to look at death penalty 1.00

00:41:33.740 cases. It's step by step. You have to be super careful and super methodical because if you base

00:41:39.740 one single call on emotion, and look, Megan, I'm with you on this. I've had friends who were

00:41:45.460 murdered. I've had two friends, actually three that were murdered, but a good friend of mine

00:41:49.160 got murdered in law school and that's you we cannot base decisions ever on the emotions of

00:41:55.520 the moment you have to look at it long term long term is you have to go very carefully step by step

00:42:01.460 and and look what the defense is doing here i'm seeing something completely different um there's

00:42:07.780 the frustration of watching the antics and one of the reasons why my friend mark garagos is so

00:42:12.840 deadly in front of a jury his juries like him these the personalities of these lawyers is not

00:42:18.480 likeable it's annoying what's that it's a lot he's so likable it's annoying no i know i listen

00:42:24.340 you have no idea what it's like going up against him it's terrible because everybody likes the guy

00:42:28.560 so so but but you look at this we watched this during the we watched this during the um

00:42:34.160 the uh the cory richard's case right that woman it's the same defense lawyer she got up and

00:42:40.020 and and tactically you know they're doing they're going through the motions as annoying as it is

00:42:45.200 as a prosecutor. I love seeing that because their personalities in this, it's called Keenan

00:42:50.720 counsel, the other lawyer that's making a lot of these objections. He just kind of, it's like

00:42:54.600 nails on a chalkboard listening to him talk. He aggravates the hell out of me. And as a viewer,

00:43:00.100 I want to throw peanuts at my screen. As a prosecutor, you love to see that because when

00:43:07.180 you have somebody that stands up and makes obnoxious, obstreperous, pedantic arguments

00:43:12.040 every 30 seconds, a jury is going to hate that. And they will have zero credibility when they

00:43:17.040 get into the penalty phase. And that is the best thing for Erica Kirk and everybody who is friends

00:43:22.220 with Charlie Kirk. Matt is so spot on. I have had cases where the prosecutor or if it's a civil case

00:43:30.740 where you're fighting over other people's money, the other person has zero jury appeal and they

00:43:35.600 don't understand it. They just don't understand how repulsive they are. Repulsive in the sense

00:43:41.700 that repel people against them.

00:43:44.540 A juror, what happens in a trial,

00:43:48.760 as opposed to a preliminary hearing,

00:43:50.760 in a trial, each side is the voice.

00:43:54.320 Matt is up there giving voice to some,

00:43:58.000 normally, because we did so many cases

00:44:00.780 that were dead bodies, literally,

00:44:04.020 well, people who have no voice.

00:44:05.600 I'm giving voice, hopefully,

00:44:07.660 to somebody who never is going to take the stand.

00:44:10.100 And so you become the proxy. If as the proxy, somebody doesn't want to help you in the jury, the last thing you're going to want to do, and I tell this to my new lawyers, why would you antagonize the jurors?

00:44:26.440 I can understand actually antagonizing the judge sometime if the judge is not likable.

00:44:32.640 Matt and I have always commented on that when we're in a courtroom where the jurors don't like the judge or the judges issuing OSCs on jurors because they're five minutes late and the jurors want to revolt.

00:44:45.960 At that point, I almost purposefully will antagonize the judge.

00:44:50.220 But absent that, that's your audience.

00:44:52.800 You've got 12 people.

00:44:53.780 Here, your audience is the public. You don't care. I have not had the pleasure of watching any of these lawyers in trial, but I push back on the objecting at a prelim. At a prelim, I think all bets are off when you're on the defense. You should be pushing. You should be going after the witnesses. You should be objecting. You should be testing everything out.

00:45:17.580 It's the only way as a defense lawyer that you can refine. It's a wonderful kind of a test runs.

00:45:24.320 OK, I got it. I got it. I mean, I disagree. And I disagree that the judge has to indulge all of

00:45:29.140 this. And, you know, you can sort of be you can blanket. Got it. Your blanket objections,

00:45:33.800 unduly prejudicial on the statement. She's made it 25 times. We have to go through it each and

00:45:39.820 every time each whatever. OK, fine. But but let's talk about Lance Twiggs, because, you know,

00:45:47.580 If you hear it, it's a very that Turkey Tom report, which we've been looking into for the better part of six months on our team, like running it by the FBI.

00:45:55.600 Like we've actually done a deep dive on that report and it hasn't fallen apart.

00:46:01.560 It's been repeated by some others.

00:46:03.380 It hasn't gone far and wide because the original source behind it refuses to come forward and identify him or herself.

00:46:09.820 But it does paint a picture, Matt, I mean, literally with pictures of their alleged apartment of like a dark, destructive, sick home in which Tyler Robinson for at least some large portion of the final year was OK, was like holding it together. 0.85

00:46:34.660 while this roommate was on a trans spiral 0.93

00:46:38.240 into the depths of inhumanity. 1.00

00:46:41.960 And it does make you wonder what happened.

00:46:44.820 But it also makes me much more inclined to believe

00:46:47.860 he probably did know more than he's letting on.

00:46:52.000 And now we've heard his DNA is on the towel

00:46:56.320 that was used to wrap the gun.

00:46:58.920 Okay, it's from their home.

00:47:00.540 Maybe he just touched the towel, I get it.

00:47:02.600 Also, the screwdriver that they found on the roof that the prosecution says was used to assemble the gun by Tyler Robinson.

00:47:08.820 I mean, maybe he touched the screwdriver and making all his crazy, crazy concoctions on that table.

00:47:13.620 I don't know. But he also was the one corresponding with Tyler in those text messages that sound somewhat manufactured.

00:47:22.040 It was not you, was it, Tyler? It was I, my love.

00:47:26.620 I mean, I'm overdoing it, but you this is why a lot of people think that it's a Fed behind this whole thing or it's it's a country or somebody's manufacturing these, whereas it could be a real or be the two of them doing this little cosplaying act to keep Lance Twiggs out of the Fed's crosshairs when Tyler knew he'd either be dead or arrested, as his own note says.

00:47:48.680 Anyway, what do you make of it all?

00:47:50.040 Well, the description of the house reminded me of the place I lived in law school.

00:47:54.400 But look, there's an old adage, crimes in hell don't have angels as witnesses.

00:48:00.460 OK, and we see this all the time when you get a gang case like your witnesses are often little gangsters.

00:48:07.040 Or if you have a crime in jail, you always have criminals that are your witnesses.

00:48:11.140 The question is, is he telling the truth?

00:48:14.100 And and the other thing is, the way I see it, and I'd love Mark's thoughts on this.

00:48:18.280 I think all they have to do with Lance Twiggs is lay the foundation.

00:48:20.980 Right, Mark, you got a note written by by Tyler Robinson, which is incriminating as hell.

00:48:26.120 The one found under the computer keyboard and and the text messages.

00:48:30.540 All you all they really need him for is to talk about that.

00:48:33.880 I'm curious to see what else he said.

00:48:35.580 But there's a there's also a love affair here.

00:48:38.600 And this goes to motive by Tyler Robinson that he's somehow, you know, defending the honor of his love, which is how he refers to to Lance Twiggs.

00:48:48.600 so um you know the furry world is weird um the idea that lance is weird kind of fits perfectly

00:48:56.700 in my mind that this is going to be tyler robinson's gone off the deep end he's decided

00:49:01.080 that he's going to embrace the trans community and um and whatever uh but then going and committing

00:49:07.040 a murder you know as a result of it it all kind of it fits in a way um so that's my take what does

00:49:14.160 Does it mean that Lance is getting use immunity, Matt, instead of getting charged as a co-conspirator, he's getting use immunity?

00:49:19.720 He has to, Megan.

00:49:20.900 They have to give him use.

00:49:22.420 And especially, I think, when they go through.

00:49:24.020 Can you explain that?

00:49:24.540 Yeah, so there's two kinds of immunity.

00:49:26.300 There's immunity immunity or what's known as transactional immunity.

00:49:29.220 That's like, you know, you confess to everything you did and you receive complete legal absolution.

00:49:34.900 Those are actually very rare.

00:49:36.240 I only did that twice in my entire career.

00:49:38.260 The other is what's known as use immunity.

00:49:39.700 That's also known in the federal federal world. It's queen for a day where you sit down and they immunize you against the statements that you make in that interview and the derivative of that.

00:49:50.740 But if independent evidence arises outside of your interview or what they learn or are able to glean from it and further investigation, anything else separate, they can still prosecute you for that.

00:50:03.100 So, in other words, you're given sort of carte blanche to talk about what happened, and then they agree not to prosecute you based on those sentences or those statements, if that makes sense.

00:50:15.400 So that's the common way it's done, and they have to do that.

00:50:18.920 Otherwise, he would have a Fifth Amendment right against testifying when the trial comes around or even at the prelim.

00:50:26.360 If he didn't have it, he'd expose himself federally.

00:50:29.900 That's right.

00:50:30.600 He has to do it.

00:50:31.540 He's going to he has a right to counsel. They have to immunize him so that he can so that he can participate in the.

00:50:37.280 Do they have a right to cross examine, Matt? Yes.

00:50:40.580 Ultimately, they certainly do. But but you you hit the nail on the head on that one, Megan.

00:50:45.200 The there is there's no right to cross examine somebody at a preliminary hearing.

00:50:50.100 Hearsay is admissible in Utah, just like it is in California.

00:50:53.460 That's been appealed to the umpteenth. That's gone to the U.S. Supreme Court.

00:50:57.520 It's OK. Why are you saying otherwise, Mark?

00:50:59.360 Because in California, as Matt will tell you, when you do a hearsay prelim, we call it a 115 prelim that was based on the proposition.

00:51:06.860 The only way the California Supreme Court said that that withstood constitutional scrutiny is there had to be a corresponding section, which there is in California called 866, which allows the defense to make a proffer to say, I want to either cross examine the declarant, the hearsay declarant.

00:51:27.920 And here's why, because there's exculpatory evidence that I can show on cross-examination

00:51:33.180 or I want to call.

00:51:34.660 Well, we're not in California anymore.

00:51:36.640 Yeah, but I got to go.

00:51:37.920 I got to go because we're 20 seconds to the heartbreak.

00:51:40.900 Are we coming back with these guys, Steve?

00:51:42.700 Yes, we are.

00:51:43.300 We're holding over.

00:51:44.160 So I'll let you finish that on the opposite side of this break.

00:51:46.140 And hopefully we'll go to the Lance Twiggs testimony as well.

00:51:50.120 We'll be right back.

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00:54:00.260 today. And while you're at it, check out Footy Prime Daily. Back with me now are the hosts of

00:54:08.020 In the Well. You can find that podcast just by typing in In the Well or MK True Crime

00:54:12.760 in your little purple podcast button on your phone or check it out on youtube.com. Mark Garagos and

00:54:19.160 Matt Murphy, two lawyers, criminal lawyers of lifetime experience who know what they are

00:54:25.080 talking about. Guys, they're still in a break now. And what we've been told is that now the

00:54:30.660 prosecution, that's just like never ending. Now the prosecution has agreed to show the video in

00:54:37.100 its redacted final form to defense counsel, which is what's happening right now behind closed doors,

00:54:44.840 incorporating all the only the lines that have been agreed upon. And then they'll show it to us.

00:54:52.720 Well, no, I mean, they'll play it for us. We'll be able to hear audio only, which, again, makes

00:54:58.500 no sense. Why don't we get to see the audio or the video? It's stupid. Like what constitutional

00:55:06.940 right is violated by me laying eyes on Lance Twiggs, then if he's holding exhibits, don't show

00:55:12.780 the exhibits. Why is this so hard? Everything's it's like here's part of the problem. And I

00:55:19.420 realized, like, we shouldn't be having this preliminary hearing for people who have their

00:55:23.060 own theories about what happened here. But the reality is it actually like. I think it's good

00:55:30.300 for posterity. I don't think you ever convince a conspiracy theorist not to believe his or her

00:55:34.620 conspiracy. You just don't. I've dealt with enough of them over the course of my life.

00:55:38.080 They never they never come out of it ever, no matter what you put up in front. We literally

00:55:43.720 could have Tyler Robinson on camera saying I did it. I did it alone. I did it because there was too

00:55:49.400 much hate. I did go confess to my parents and then they called the deputy and I turned myself in.

00:55:55.840 And the people would still say it's a lie. It's just. I've had so many of these over my 24 years

00:56:03.220 and news that I know this to be true. But just for posterity sake, I think it's valuable to have

00:56:08.600 the the video and the audio of the guy saying he confessed to me just the mere fact that he's not

00:56:18.120 going to be on camera is going to set a lot of people off. Like, was he at a gunpoint? You know,

00:56:24.540 like how was he really giving this voluntarily? It's like these are just games. They're games

00:56:30.920 that we're playing because of the defense's every objection and it it leads to a frustratingly

00:56:35.720 incomplete record i get it for now but who the hell knows when the trial is going to be matt

00:56:40.520 murphy so this is what's going to be out there for months and months and months on end yeah so uh

00:56:46.200 going back to the judge for a second megan mark and i were talking uh off camera a second ago

00:56:50.600 one of the things did you soften to my position no um but i want to but i want to i want to say

00:56:56.100 something in the hopes of making you feel a little better um okay one of the things that you see

00:57:02.040 oftentimes is when you see defense lawyers engaged in this that they're going through the process

00:57:07.520 but this is a long it's a long process right and we're going to get into a trial that's going to

00:57:11.900 be a lot longer than this prelim and the the defense objecting like this and challenging

00:57:18.020 the court on everything eventually wears down on every judicial officer which means he's they're

00:57:24.100 going to get on his last nerve at a certain point i predict probably halfway through the trial

00:57:27.820 and the jury will see that and even though the jury's not supposed to take the cue from the judge

00:57:32.660 they always do and this is gonna if if this continues and look it's going to continue because

00:57:37.560 we we saw this in the cory richard's trial with the same lawyer and that the guy that she's got

00:57:42.280 up there right now is he has half the personality that she does and she is um she was not exactly

00:57:49.260 sparkling in front of that other utah jury so this is believe it or not it's frustrating now

00:57:55.060 this is good long term because this is the type of stuff that that really will have an impact at the

00:58:01.720 end this kind of object to everything nails on a chalkboard slow everything down it's going to get

00:58:07.200 worse in front of the jury the jury's going to hate it and then there there's going to be no

00:58:11.360 credibility left when they stand up and say don't execute my client and by the one especially at the

00:58:17.740 trial, Gary goes, that if we believe the prosecutor, Lance Twiggs is going to show up in person and be

00:58:25.180 sitting in the witness box. And this business of like that one line needs to come out and no one

00:58:30.800 can see him and he can't be confronted with exhibits. That's all out the window. We are

00:58:35.680 going to hear from Lance Twiggs if he is willing to show up there and he'll get cross-examined.

00:58:41.120 But that testimony is coming out at some point. Yeah. But you have you've answered kind of your

00:58:47.360 question by that that by saying it it doesn't need to come out and it shouldn't come out now

00:58:54.100 because you've got you're not you don't want to if you're a judge have to change venue you don't

00:59:00.720 want to pollute your jury but mark what's the typical rule well like in a typical case

00:59:05.720 wouldn't the preliminary hearing be completely on the public record on the record and everything

00:59:11.420 accessible by the public right and in a typical case we're not going to be covering it breathlessly

00:59:16.140 on a podcast in a typical case the it's not going to be covered to this degree it's not going to be

00:59:22.840 what's called what i always call a supersize there were breaths there were breaths it was not

00:59:28.540 breathless everyone here one the one thing the one thing i was going to say is is during the break

00:59:35.640 matt and i agreed uh that we would give this judge a a plus marks he is doing a spectacular job

00:59:44.820 and a very difficult job, you can put your head in your hands, but he's doing what he needs to do.

00:59:52.340 I know people want, there's this kind of short attention span or this immediate gratification.

00:59:58.840 He's not looking at that. To Matt's point, the bull joke, he's got more guts than I do. I wouldn't

01:00:04.580 have told that joke. The bull joke, having sex with every cow is basically what you have to do 1.00

01:00:12.980 in a case like this because it's capital litigation. 0.59

01:00:16.640 It's just no way around it.

01:00:18.880 Matt and I were talking on the break.

01:00:21.360 Some of the things he's been hoisted on

01:00:24.180 and I've been hoisted on in murder cases,

01:00:27.460 it would blow your mind.

01:00:29.060 We could tell you stories, both of us.

01:00:31.580 You just can't do what you kind of reflexively want to do,

01:00:37.400 which is just mow through this to get to the conviction.

01:00:40.220 It doesn't work.

01:00:41.800 I had an old boss, Megan, who taught me how to do capital case litigation, which is death penalty cases, which is very, very specialized.

01:00:49.000 And the old saying is death is different.

01:00:51.660 And he used to say his name is Brian Brown.

01:00:53.320 He's a legend.

01:00:54.060 I know Mark knows him well.

01:00:56.500 He said, give them everything they want, referring to the defense.

01:01:00.380 Give them everything they want until it's something you really need.

01:01:03.640 OK, and that's it.

01:01:04.680 That's a good way of looking at it.

01:01:05.960 Because like Mark just said, the things that you get reversed for can be so innocuous and you just don't want to put the family through it again.

01:01:14.840 You want to maximize the chances of this being withheld on appeal, being upheld on appeal.

01:01:20.620 And so you never have to do it again.

01:01:22.260 And you let the poor Kirk family put this behind them to the to the greatest extent possible.

01:01:27.760 Another thing they're dealing with is they're dealing with all of these insane conspiracy theories that are out there.

01:01:32.400 And I think that's why we're seeing such a detailed preliminary hearing.

01:01:36.580 Mark or I on a regular murder case without a without a capital case component to this, without a death penalty lingering out there.

01:01:44.620 This is a one day prelim. You put on the rifle, you do the.

01:01:48.660 It's two hours. Yeah. Yeah. Literally two hours.

01:01:52.380 And and they're doing this, I think it's interesting because there's there's been so much public discourse.

01:01:59.000 I've seen some insane things on the Internet, mostly championed by Candace Owens, that are it is so loony tinfoil hat out there.

01:02:10.380 And I think that's hard on the on the victim's family.

01:02:12.860 So I also want to commend the prosecution for going through this, even though it's five days, because it really does change the public discourse on it.

01:02:21.340 We're about to separate those that are open minded to other defense theories from the actual lunatics.

01:02:27.760 It's like the probators with Brian Cobra, right?

01:02:30.060 All of that, the loony theories.

01:02:32.540 Megan, you are right.

01:02:34.620 It's the reason this is five days.

01:02:37.600 I know Phil Holloway, he loses his mind over this.

01:02:40.260 But the reason is five days, clearly, is they're trying to quell some of the kind of rumors or conspiracy theories.

01:02:47.440 But your point is the most astute when it comes to that.

01:02:50.860 Nothing is going to dispel that.

01:02:52.860 And you put something on, all that does is feed it and amplify it.

01:02:56.400 And so that's no it's basically the prosecutorial version of no good deed goes unpunished.

01:03:01.920 It's all it does is that stuff.

01:03:05.040 I mean, I don't agree with Candace's theory of this case, but I have to say, I genuinely believe she was traumatized by watching her friend die.

01:03:13.620 I can relate to it.

01:03:15.520 And I think she's in earnest and I think she she distrusts authority.

01:03:20.020 I don't agree with her again, Matt, but I just like and I know people have very strong feelings about her.

01:03:24.820 I just I think she's in her own search for what she believes happened here.

01:03:31.540 And she has zero trust in official words on anything.

01:03:35.800 She's making. Yeah. I'm not quite that cynical.

01:03:38.640 She's making it harder for Erica Kirk and the entire Kirk family. 0.76

01:03:41.600 She's also making things harder on the prosecution.

01:03:43.800 And I and look, I don't know her. I've never appeared in front of her.

01:03:46.720 I got nothing against her. I got no axe to grind.

01:03:49.720 But she's she is making things harder for the good guys on this. 1.00

01:03:53.520 And Erica Kirk asked her to to stop with the stuff.

01:03:57.700 And she said she would. And then Erica Kirk asked her, I think, twice.

01:04:01.420 And she's continued. She's she's quadrupled down on it.

01:04:04.880 And she sounds insane to me.

01:04:08.320 And again, I don't know her. I would I would debate her any time on on some of this stuff because it's insane. 0.97

01:04:14.480 Like the Israel didn't kill Charlie Kirk. Sorry, they just didn't.

01:04:17.700 This is this is this is a murder case. It's a death penalty case.

01:04:22.100 this is what they look like this is what killers sound like this is this is how these things

01:04:27.180 actually occur in reality you got a guy who's in love with a trans guy who decides he's going

01:04:32.900 to kill somebody because some somehow that would help him that's america today that's that's that

01:04:38.280 is um i mean charlie kirk himself i don't know i'm sure you've seen the post um assassination

01:04:43.140 culture you know and and tyler rompton proved him right it's like hey buddy you killed the guy and

01:04:49.740 you proved him right at the same time. It's like, all right, Matt, I mean, if we're going to go down

01:04:52.480 this lane, then we can go down this lane because it was Andrew Colvett of Turning Point who turned

01:04:59.280 over to the FBI Charlie's criticisms of his Jewish donors and his threats to leave the pro-Israel

01:05:06.380 cause right before he was murdered. That was Turning Point. And I love Andrew Colvett. And

01:05:11.800 he did that because he's an honest guy. And he said, you know what? They should investigate

01:05:15.280 everything they should investigate who else had an ax to grind with Charlie and who else might

01:05:21.260 be motivated he's not some conspiracy theorist like why I was told this myself and it's been

01:05:28.740 now been reported by her and others that there were at least 11 there's a difference in 11

01:05:33.660 versus 14 Israel only cell phones on the campus of UVU that day like not from from Israeli citizens 0.75

01:05:41.680 In other words, open accounts open in Israel and the NSA knew that shit within two minutes because they lock those scenes down and they can tell you exactly what cell phones were on scene. 0.56

01:05:51.020 I don't say that means Israel killed Charlie, but it's one of the reasons why both of these are reasons why all along I've said we should we should be. 0.93

01:05:59.180 You should not be saying to her or anybody else, you're not allowed to ask that question.

01:06:03.740 You are allowed to ask questions that it is smart to say who else had a motive.

01:06:08.660 And when it comes to these lone gunman assassinations, you know, Butler and now this people always ask, was he put up to it?

01:06:20.100 You know, is there some nefarious government source?

01:06:23.040 Some people could believe in CIA and MKUltra.

01:06:25.520 Some people believe the CIA actually killed like JFK.

01:06:29.220 You know, you've heard them all.

01:06:30.880 Sure.

01:06:31.520 And I'm like you.

01:06:32.660 My instincts are as lawyers.

01:06:34.580 I think the three of us are much more evidence based.

01:06:37.740 OK, great.

01:06:38.660 you have a theory, show me the evidence and persuade me with something that's admissible

01:06:42.940 in a court of law that I can argue with. But I well, that's where we are. But not everybody's

01:06:48.780 like we are. And it doesn't necessarily make them a nutcase to not trust the official government

01:06:53.640 narrative. Well, what about just I didn't get Matt? Maybe I'll save it for in the well. But

01:06:58.820 I wanted Matt's reaction. Well, you don't think there's enough to have in to have charged Lance

01:07:06.220 twigs in this case i think that you really need to show that there was some sort of um something

01:07:14.340 beforehand or or even after where he's helping um you you need the the dna is not enough for me

01:07:20.420 and and you know mark i've done conspiracy cases where people have been yelling at me why i haven't

01:07:25.140 included people sometimes i've included people that i heard the exact opposite you know how come

01:07:30.660 how come that person's involved and it just going along with what megan just said it's i i i follow

01:07:36.000 the evidence when i call it as i see it and the the dna means nothing uh you always get you always

01:07:41.680 get i agree i've got i can't tell you the number of murder cases that i've had discourse especially

01:07:47.020 with with the increasing sensitivity what mark then what do you like to indict lance with i i

01:07:51.960 think that lance if uh on the before and if you read the the actually i was going to say you're

01:08:00.020 the one who put the idea in my head with some of the things that you had talked about five days

01:08:05.320 before four days before and then the text that referenced knowledge by him by lance prior to

01:08:13.960 this if i'm the defense i'm all over that because there is something more to this this idea of this

01:08:20.520 of tyler robinson doing this alone so far based on everything i've seen i would be all over that

01:08:27.800 when matt says the dna alone he's right i've defended that's not to say i have defended

01:08:34.800 murder cases where guys got help to answer because i can think of one where his fingerprint

01:08:39.520 was on a mattress frame where the the stabbing took place we got it dismissed but that was

01:08:45.240 enough to get you past prelim now you've got dna on several items that were essential uh let me

01:08:51.980 pause you mark i just we're let's check in with what's happening in the court because agent davis

01:08:55.860 just took the stand and this is who they're going to get the video in through so let's listen see

01:08:59.240 if they're doing it finally this meeting is uh to use your statement here instead of your testimony

01:09:07.320 at a preliminary hearing understand that okay so um here we go in order to do that to do that i

01:09:13.700 need to place you under oath and also give you a an admonition about false statements okay

01:09:18.380 first uh you do solemnly swear or affirm that the evidence you shall give in this issue shall be the

01:09:25.420 truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god yes um i also need to notify you

01:09:33.260 that you are notified the statements you are about to make may be presented at to a magistrate

01:09:38.380 or a judge in lieu of your sworn testimony at a preliminary examination any false statement you

01:09:44.400 make and that you do not believe to be true maybe sub may subject you to criminal punishment as a

01:09:50.000 class A misdemeanor. Do you understand that? Yes. It potentially could be used for punishment

01:09:56.040 as a higher offense as obstruction of justice. In addition, I just want to make sure that

01:10:04.120 our recording here is clear that you've also been given a federal agreement and a state

01:10:12.400 agreement granting you immunity from prosecution for materials that you discuss now. Do you

01:10:17.980 understand that. First, I'm going to cover some of the things that you've already talked

01:10:24.480 about, but to make it as part of this record. First, what's your name? Full name with middle

01:10:32.940 name or just first and last? First and last is fine. Okay. My name is Lance Twiggs. And

01:10:37.880 do you know Tyler Robinson? Yes, I do. Yeah, I do. And is the same Tyler Robinson that's

01:10:44.420 been charged with the shooting of Charlie Kirk? Yes. And would you say when you first met Tyler?

01:10:52.720 I think it was 2023. I've known him longer than that, though. That was, I think, the first time

01:10:57.680 I met him in person. Okay. And will you describe your relationship with Tyler when you first met him?

01:11:10.060 anyway um when i first met him i didn't know him super well he was just a new roommate so

01:11:19.420 uh i knew he knew my friend group and i knew he liked playing games but that's that's about

01:11:26.140 it when we first uh like when he first moved him okay um before we go on i realized my mic was

01:11:32.380 I'm going to repeat those admonitions just to make sure we got it before you.

01:11:40.380 Okay, so again, I placed you under oath.

01:11:44.380 Just to make a record, I'm going to do it again.

01:11:48.380 You just always swear that the evidence you shall give in this issue shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so have you gotten it?

01:11:55.380 Yes.

01:11:56.380 And again, I'm going to give you the false statement admonition.

01:12:00.380 Sorry, hold on. They're saying that it's echoing.

01:12:06.100 I think this one's mic is on.

01:12:07.720 Okay, sorry.

01:12:10.020 Okay, you're not holding my mic.

01:12:11.640 That's fine.

01:12:12.180 Okay.

01:12:12.780 Okay, so we should be good. All right. Is that mic off?

01:12:18.700 Yes.

01:12:19.480 Okay, great.

01:12:21.440 All right, okay, sorry about that interruption. All right, so you said when you first met, you were roommates?

01:12:27.920 Yeah.

01:12:28.300 Okay. And then at some point, your relationship progressed to something more than to remain suffering.

01:12:34.900 When was that?

01:12:36.440 I think we started dating two or three months after we moved in.

01:12:40.640 Okay. And where did you live at that time?

01:12:44.300 St. George in an apartment complex.

01:12:47.460 And is that apartment the same place you lived on September 10th?

01:12:52.780 Yes.

01:12:53.120 um when you lived there uh with tyler were you in the same room did you live in the same room

01:13:01.460 or different rooms separate rooms and at that time let's say september of 2025

01:13:07.720 um what was what were you doing with your life were you working school

01:13:12.780 uh i was working um i was doing like bathtub and shower repair and stuff in new construction

01:13:20.500 Okay.

01:13:21.220 How about Tyler?

01:13:22.780 I think he was both working.

01:13:25.440 I think he was working for an electrician company then,

01:13:29.800 and he was also in a trade school for being a, I don't know, higher ranking electrician.

01:13:36.320 I'm not sure how the trade system works for that.

01:13:39.080 Okay.

01:13:39.420 But I think he was both.

01:13:41.240 What was his typical workday like?

01:13:43.380 um i think you'd leave around seven generally and get back around three to four uh depending on

01:13:53.000 like where the job was and how long it was for the day and then on certain days of the week during

01:14:00.320 school like semesters you would then later in the day i think around five or six go to school

01:14:08.580 So, yeah.

01:14:09.840 Okay.

01:14:10.520 Let's jump to September 10th.

01:14:13.320 Did he spend the night in the apartment the night of September 9th into September 10th?

01:14:20.720 Yeah, he did.

01:14:23.160 Yes.

01:14:23.900 Do you know when he left the apartment on September 10th?

01:14:26.480 I don't know an exact time.

01:14:28.400 I just know he left early.

01:14:30.860 I heard him leaving, and he just said he had a long drive to work that day, so he was leaving early.

01:14:37.000 Okay, so early. Any guess as to what, when that was?

01:14:46.140 I don't know. I would have thought it was 5 a.m. because that's when like an early workday was for him, but it was probably more like 4.

01:14:54.860 Okay.

01:14:57.360 I'm going to have him spat his gum just to make sure that.

01:14:59.620 I can do that.

01:15:00.720 You're right in front of your laptop.

01:15:03.220 Oh, here you go.

01:15:04.900 Thank you.

01:15:07.000 So what time did you get up on September 10th?

01:15:14.000 Probably like 12 to 1 p.m.

01:15:18.000 You didn't have to work that day? No.

01:15:21.000 And did you hear from Tyler? Did he call or text you before then?

01:15:25.000 No, he sent that message in the group chat I mentioned, but he didn't message me directly at all that day.

01:15:32.000 When did you first hear from him on September 10th?

01:15:36.000 10th? It was at

01:15:38.060 11 o'clock with that, like, automated

01:15:40.140 message. Okay, 11 p.m.?

01:15:42.120 Yeah.

01:15:45.020 What about...

01:15:47.380 He asks

01:15:48.220 you here, remember how I was engraving bullets?

01:15:50.520 Was he engraving bullets before this?

01:15:52.900 Yeah, I don't remember

01:15:54.000 exactly when, but

01:15:55.620 he had said he was planning to go hunting

01:15:58.140 with his family,

01:15:59.960 and he asked me for a...

01:16:01.980 If we had, like, a Dremel,

01:16:03.280 because he said he wanted to create messages on bullets.

01:16:08.540 And I just told him where Dremel was

01:16:10.720 and I told him to make sure he doesn't set off a bullet on accident in the house.

01:16:17.200 But I didn't really think about it until then.

01:16:20.040 How long before September 10th was this that he asked about the Dremel?

01:16:26.560 I don't remember

01:16:27.940 because he'd been talking about the hunting-slash-camping trip for a couple months,

01:16:35.560 but I don't remember when he was specifically asking to engrave the bullets.

01:16:42.160 So are we talking like a year before?

01:16:44.400 Oh, no, not that long.

01:16:46.520 It would have been, I'd say at most, a month before this was when he was asking.

01:16:50.340 Okay.

01:16:53.960 All right.

01:16:54.900 You talked about the note that he left.

01:16:57.940 I want to bring this up, and I should say that these text messages that we've been looking at here are Bates No. 54.

01:17:10.820 The notes have been titled 16.3 with a note, and this is Bates No. 58.

01:17:21.040 Do you recognize that on this screen there?

01:17:24.960 Yeah.

01:17:26.200 What do you recognize it as?

01:17:28.640 That was the note under his keyboard that he was referring to in the first text of that chain.

01:17:35.700 So where did you find this?

01:17:37.880 On his desk underneath his computer keyboard.

01:17:43.640 And I assume you read it?

01:17:49.900 Yeah.

01:17:50.580 And then what did you do with it after you read it?

01:17:53.620 Um, I believe I just put it back down on the desk after I took a picture of it.

01:17:58.940 Okay.

01:17:59.560 And again, the time you read it was probably around 11 o'clock or so on the 10th.

01:18:04.120 Yes.

01:18:04.820 The night of September 10th.

01:18:06.340 Mm-hmm.

01:18:08.480 All right.

01:18:09.460 And did you ever see that again after you placed it back on his desk?

01:18:12.860 Uh, no, I don't think I did.

01:18:15.820 And that was a desk in his bedroom?

01:18:18.580 Yes.

01:18:18.940 And that's a separate bedroom than your bedroom?

01:18:21.260 Yeah.

01:18:22.640 I now want to go to what's been titled 16.2, and do you recognize this series of messages here?

01:18:38.280 Yeah, that was the server of, like, his friend that I was mentioning.

01:18:44.860 Okay, and this is your phone again?

01:18:47.620 Yeah.

01:18:48.140 and i'm assuming you recognize it because the big crack up at the top and so this is a server

01:18:56.520 is this discord yeah this is discord and who who are members of this server i don't want names just

01:19:04.220 generally who are these people this is his friend group um they play dnd together every week

01:19:09.780 okay and i just want to scroll through this to make sure that i get a chance to take a look at

01:19:17.500 I go to the next page yes so Tyler I come who's that that's Tyler Robinson these other people are

01:19:31.300 just others on their their members of the server yes jug Barnaby marina dm mm-hmm yes yeah like

01:19:39.460 DM means dungeon master so this is these are like most of them are names they're using in the in the

01:19:45.880 game they're playing currently got it yeah it looks like the last text from

01:19:52.480 Tyler looks like it's 8 p.m. and do you know what Davis would have been 8 p.m.

01:19:58.540 on the 10th or the 11th I would think that would be the 11th because on at

01:20:07.480 least I think so because I don't think on the 10th that he messaged anyone

01:20:12.200 before me at like 11.

01:20:14.620 And he turned himself in on the 11th, right?

01:20:17.420 I thought so, yeah.

01:20:20.500 We're just going to go through this so that we have a record of the messages.

01:20:29.340 Is that an accurate recording of that thread?

01:20:32.760 To my knowledge, yes.

01:20:35.160 And that looks like between September 10th and September 12th.

01:20:40.120 It looks like the last day on this is September 12th.

01:20:42.940 Screen?

01:20:43.680 Yes.

01:20:46.260 Okay.

01:20:48.300 All right, so, again, those messages covered from September 10th to the evening of September 11th.

01:20:54.900 Now, September 11th, what time did or did you see Pylever on September 11th?

01:21:04.180 Yes.

01:21:04.940 When did you first see him on September 11th?

01:21:06.860 So this is the day after.

01:21:08.160 Yeah, I saw him when I woke up.

01:21:10.920 Like I said, he was up and around doing a lot of stuff around the house.

01:21:18.320 And then I think I saw him after that message where I said, I'll come home and say I'm doing laundry because I didn't want him going to my parents' house right then when he said there was probably cops outside.

01:21:33.020 So I went back home and it was just him there and I said bye to him and then he drove off.

01:21:39.160 So I just went back to my parents' house.

01:21:45.100 So he acted erratically.

01:21:47.940 Was he pacing?

01:21:50.620 Was he just sitting down, relaxing?

01:21:52.760 No, he was walking around a lot.

01:21:55.520 And that's within the home?

01:21:56.960 Mm-hmm.

01:21:59.680 And did he talk about what he had done?

01:22:03.940 Didn't go into detail.

01:22:05.360 I just asked him in person if what he said was true the night before, and he said it was.

01:22:13.200 I started crying a little bit and said he wishes he hadn't done it,

01:22:17.120 and then kept going around and just doing stuff, I think, to keep himself busy or distracted or something.

01:22:27.260 Did he talk about what he was going to do next?

01:22:29.880 and then eventually said that he would

01:22:36.040 talk to his parents or turn himself over

01:22:39.380 and when you left

01:22:43.000 was that how you left understanding that he was going to turn himself in

01:22:47.200 or go to his parents house? Yeah and I didn't really want to be at our

01:22:51.360 apartment while any of that was happening regardless of what went down

01:22:55.300 Okay. Before he came home, had you seen the press releases, any of the media on this?

01:23:07.460 I'd seen one Instagram link a friend of mine had sent in our group chat, but I hadn't really looked into it at all.

01:23:18.920 And had you seen the images that were released of the suspect?

01:23:21.980 I did the next day. I don't think I saw any on the 10th.

01:23:28.980 I'm going to show you a couple of those images.

01:23:33.980 I'm on the FBI's website. You can see the URL there at the top.

01:23:38.980 This is a press release about this event.

01:23:42.980 And here on the screen, you see these, it looks like there's two rows of three images.

01:23:49.980 do you recognize the person in these images I wouldn't say with a hundred

01:23:56.120 percent certainty just because of camera quality but that looks like him in

01:24:00.480 terms of the shoes he's wearing the sunglasses I don't think I'd

01:24:04.600 specifically seen him wearing that hat but he was usually wearing a hat and

01:24:09.180 then jeans so it definitely especially the bottom the last two definitely do

01:24:16.620 look like him. Oh, they do look like Tyler Robinson. And you talked about that with your

01:24:27.360 friends, right? His friends, yeah. I don't know if I talked, I don't remember if I talked

01:24:35.240 about it with any of my friends. And then since I didn't have my phone after that for

01:24:40.240 a while and I still am not using social media, I don't know, on my friend's end.

01:24:46.620 Okay. All right, I want to back up a little bit now.

01:24:50.460 We've talked about September 10th, but let me get a little bit of context here.

01:24:54.860 So, did you game with Tyler?

01:24:58.900 Yeah.

01:24:59.540 What kind of games?

01:25:02.180 We played some just kind of party games together, like stuff, anything that would be multiplayer with a group of friends.

01:25:09.400 There was one game he really liked called Sea of Thieves, where he plays like a pirate,

01:25:13.500 and you can you can fight against people but most of it's just like fishing fighting sharks

01:25:20.260 skeletons kind of stuff um we played some co-op games where it's like uh you both have to work

01:25:27.500 together to win in whatever way uh way back when like when i was just out of high school

01:25:34.920 when i uh first knew him online we played some like shooting games together but i i didn't know

01:25:41.140 very well so that was just when we had like a whole friend group on to play and he was someone

01:25:45.140 that my friends invited okay um did you and he ever talk about politics um he did more than me

01:25:52.900 uh i i didn't really still don't really keep up with politics very much i usually talk about

01:26:01.380 stuff he heard on the radio on his drive to work and like their work car since it sounds like a

01:26:06.180 their whole crew went in the same car most of the time, but I wouldn't say super consistently

01:26:13.780 because it wasn't a topic I really contributed much on.

01:26:17.980 How about Charlie Kirk? Did you ever talk about Charlie Kirk?

01:26:20.620 I personally had never heard him talk about Charlie Kirk before specifically.

01:26:25.080 Okay. How about political issues?

01:26:31.560 So did you ever talk about gender identity issues and LGBTQ rights?

01:26:37.880 No, not really.

01:26:41.800 Usually if he did talk about politics stuff, it was relating to Trump or current policies being issued or voted on, I think.

01:26:55.220 Okay, so before that you have been?

01:27:00.280 For a short time, yes.

01:27:03.800 And I understand you're going by Luna at some point?

01:27:07.580 To some people, yeah, but not as an overall thing.

01:27:13.620 Okay.

01:27:15.720 Okay.

01:27:18.340 I think that's all the questions I have for this portion.

01:27:22.200 Let me check and see if I've missed anything.

01:27:24.180 okay um the dremel that you talked about um you said he had asked for that is that right

01:27:32.940 and had he told you it was to inscribe bullets yeah and uh so did you have a dremel then yeah

01:27:40.560 okay uh it was in our like we had a our apartment we had a section where we kept all our like

01:27:45.500 random tools for household stuff uh in our like uh lower basement level pantry um so yeah

01:27:54.100 Okay.

01:27:54.500 And did you give that to him or tell him where it was?

01:27:56.600 I just told him where it was, yeah.

01:27:59.100 Okay.

01:27:59.600 I'm going to go ahead and end the recording for the 1102 purposes.

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01:31:46.480 All right, that concludes States Exhibit 16. 1.00

01:31:49.680 Ms. Hunt.

01:31:50.940 Thank you, Judge.

01:31:52.820 Agent Davis, I asked you yesterday, but I want to remind the court and those present.

01:31:59.760 Were you physically present at the interview we just watched in States Exhibit 16?

01:32:03.920 Yes, I was there.

01:32:06.620 And aside from the court-ordered redactions, did it appear to you to be fair and accurate about what you remember, that interview that day?

01:32:18.040 Yes. Yes, I do.

01:32:20.660 During that interview, did Mr. Twiggs, was he shown or referenced certain items of evidence?

01:32:28.200 Yes, he was.

01:32:29.360 What types of items of evidence was he shown?

01:32:31.840 It was the text messages between himself and Tyler Robinson,

01:32:39.440 a Discord chat messages, and a handwritten note.

01:32:44.920 And then we also saw in the video he was also shown the FBI press release photos of the potential suspect.

01:32:52.080 That's correct, yes.

01:32:53.860 Have you reviewed all of those items as part of the investigation?

01:32:57.080 Yes, I have.

01:32:57.980 You're familiar with them?

01:32:59.340 Yes.

01:32:59.660 All right, I want to put just on the witnesses' screen what's been marked for identification in the States Exhibit 16.1.

01:33:07.260 And for the record, this includes the one edit that the court has previously ordered.

01:33:14.760 Thank you.

01:33:15.880 Let me know when you see that on your screen.

01:33:22.840 I see it. I see it now.

01:33:25.740 Do you recognize this?

01:33:27.580 Yes, I do.

01:33:28.260 What is it?

01:33:29.060 This is a photograph of screenshots of text messages between Tyler Robinson and Lance Twiggs.

01:33:38.600 This is a photograph of Lance's phone.

01:33:43.560 So, sorry, you said photograph, you also said screenshot.

01:33:46.440 Can you differentiate or clarify there?

01:33:49.660 Yeah, sorry.

01:33:51.320 These are photographs directly from Lance's phone.

01:33:54.520 How do you know that?

01:33:55.640 In Lance's first interview, he is showing the FBI agents these text messages, describes them to the agents, and at that time, his phone was photographed.

01:34:14.580 And you testified, I believe, yesterday that Mr. Twigg's first interview was the morning of September 12th, 2025. Is that correct?

01:34:23.360 That's correct, yes.

01:34:24.040 Were you physically present at that interview?

01:34:27.580 No, I was not there.

01:34:28.880 Have you spoken with the officers or agents that were?

01:34:33.120 Yes, I've spoken to one of those agents that was there.

01:34:38.680 And you stated that that first September 12th interview of Mr. Twiggs was recorded?

01:34:43.840 Yes, audio video recorded.

01:34:45.640 Have you reviewed that recording?

01:34:47.180 Yes, I have.

01:34:48.620 So you stated that we're looking in State's Exhibit 16.1 at a picture of Mr. Twiggs' phone.

01:34:56.880 Yes.

01:34:57.340 Do you know who took these photos?

01:34:59.860 Yes, it was Agent Larson with FBI.

01:35:02.260 Did you speak with Agent Larson and confirm that?

01:35:04.620 I did.

01:35:07.200 And you kind of made reference to this already, but how did Mr. Twiggs initially show law enforcement the relevant text messages?

01:35:13.240 Yeah, during that first interview on September 12th, he physically, he shows them the phone and then allows them to photograph the phone.

01:35:26.020 And does he identify it as his phone in that interview?

01:35:29.460 Yes, he does.

01:35:30.540 Does he refer to any particular features of the phone that allows him to make that identification?

01:35:36.140 The second interview refers to the large crack in the upper left screen.

01:35:43.440 So he identifies that in his second interview that was given on April 20th.

01:35:49.120 And according to your review of the recording of his first interview

01:35:53.840 and in speaking with the agents that were there,

01:35:57.480 did he have his personal phone with him at the time of the September 12th interview?

01:36:02.460 Yes, he did.

01:36:02.940 and was this same text thread that we're seeing in states exhibit 16.1 shown to him during his

01:36:10.420 second interview um in sorry let me get the date right april 20th 2026 at the utah county

01:36:18.460 attorney's office that we just observed part of in states exhibit 16 yes it was shown to him

01:36:24.300 was he asked how tyler robinson is is saved in his phone like as a contact

01:36:32.640 Yeah, Justice Tyler.

01:36:35.320 Without saying it, obviously, did he identify Tyler Robinson's phone number?

01:36:39.620 Yes, he did.

01:36:42.140 Did you check the number that Mr. Twiggs gave as Tyler Robinson's phone number against law enforcement records?

01:36:47.880 Yes, I did.

01:36:48.600 And do they match?

01:36:49.600 Yes, they match.

01:36:50.780 Is State's Exhibit 16.1 a fair and accurate representation of the relevant text thread between Mr. Twiggs and Mr. Robinson?

01:36:59.880 Yes, it is.

01:37:02.200 As part of the investigation, was a Cellbrite extraction performed on Mr. Twiggs' phone?

01:37:08.140 Yes, it was.

01:37:09.340 Did you personally review that extraction?

01:37:12.700 Yes, I have.

01:37:15.840 And according to that extraction, did Mr. Robinson and Mr. Twiggs exchange text messages on September 10th through 11th, 2025?

01:37:25.100 Yes, they did.

01:37:26.560 What time was that first text sent according to the Cellbrite extraction?

01:37:30.980 The first text was September 10th at 11 p.m.

01:37:37.540 All right, Judge.

01:37:38.660 I would move to admit State's Exhibit 16.1,

01:37:44.340 and then pursuant to court order, I would move to publish it to the monitors.

01:37:53.500 Senator Novak.

01:37:54.420 we have no further objections beyond those that the court of course is very familiar with at this

01:38:01.160 point in time all right i'll note the standing objections made by defense those objections are

01:38:07.220 overruled this 16.1 is admitted into evidence and may be published to the gallery as well as

01:38:14.540 electronically distributed through the camera.

01:38:22.180 All right, Agent, I want to, I'm not going to go through every single message, but I do want to

01:38:26.780 have you read aloud certain portions of them. And I apologize to Council. These are not

01:38:32.080 actually given a page number. I have page numbers, but I'm happy to confer that we're on the same

01:38:38.860 page as we go so here we're looking at page one of states exhibit 16.1 if you

01:38:47.740 could start if you could read a little more than halfway down where it begins

01:38:55.060 Wednesday 11 p.m. will you start reading underneath that yes so this would have

01:39:01.660 been from from Tyler says drop what you're doing look under your keyboard

01:39:06.040 board and i apologize let me stop you there how do you know that this that message would have been

01:39:10.420 from tyler robinson that's just so any of the messages in gray would be from tyler and message

01:39:16.520 in blue would be from uh from lance it's just with the iphone that just distinguishes the messages

01:39:22.360 and also lance lance in his interview also acknowledges that um who was saying what and

01:39:30.160 And up at the top, who do we see that this thread is between?

01:39:34.160 Tyler.

01:39:35.160 All right, sorry to interrupt you.

01:39:39.160 So read that again, starting from look under the keyboard.

01:39:43.160 So after that, then Lance responds, he says, what?

01:39:48.160 And then he says, you're joking, right? 0.99

01:39:51.160 And then Tyler says, fuck, I tried to delete that. 0.99

01:39:54.160 If we could scroll down to page two. 0.97

01:39:59.160 and if you can continue reading along okay uh and Tyler says I'm still okay my love but I'm

01:40:07.600 stuck in Orem for a little while longer yet shouldn't be long until I can come home but

01:40:12.860 gotta grab my rifle still to be honest I had hoped to keep this secret till I died of old age

01:40:18.520 I am sorry to involve you and then Lance replies you weren't the one who did it right

01:40:24.980 and Tyler says, I am, I'm sorry.

01:40:29.280 Lance says, I thought they caught the person.

01:40:33.400 And then Tyler says, no, they grabbed some crazy old dude

01:40:36.500 and interrogated someone in similar clothing.

01:40:39.240 I had planned to grab my rifle from the drop point shortly after,

01:40:42.220 but most of that side of town got locked down.

01:40:46.420 It's quiet almost enough to get out, but there's one vehicle lingering.

01:40:50.240 If we could scroll down to page three.

01:40:54.980 Continue reading.

01:40:57.000 Lance says, why?

01:40:59.280 And Tyler says, why did I do it?

01:41:01.360 And Lance says, yeah.

01:41:03.420 Tyler says, I had enough of his hatred.

01:41:05.600 Some hate can't be negotiated out.

01:41:08.060 If I'm able to grab my rifle unseen, I will have left no evidence.

01:41:13.500 Going to attempt to retrieve it again.

01:41:15.280 Hopefully, they have moved on.

01:41:17.120 I haven't seen anything in the news about them finding it.

01:41:19.960 We'll update you shortly.

01:41:21.680 Or shortly, we'll update you by midnight.

01:41:23.140 and then Lance says all right stay safe how long have you been planning this

01:41:28.560 scroll down a little bit please Kimberly and Tyler replies a bit over a week I believe

01:41:35.460 I can get close to it but there is a squad car parked right by it I think they already swept

01:41:40.880 that spot but I don't want to chance it we can scroll down to page four and continue

01:41:46.480 reading uh about halfway down i'll stop you about halfway down uh this is while they were

01:41:54.620 spot but i don't want to chance it while they were parked there if they'd found it i imagine

01:41:59.620 there would be more commotion again i'm sorry for roping you into all of this you shouldn't

01:42:04.540 have to worry about this and lance replies does anyone else know tyler says not to my knowledge

01:42:11.740 All right, I'll stop you there. Let's move to page five. So this should be page four. So just scroll down one, please, Kimberly. And if you could read starting. Sorry, Kimberly, scroll a bit more down. If you could read, I don't know, about one third of the way up that starts with guess.

01:42:38.500 okay um tyler says guess i'm guess i'm just sitting in my car watching reels for

01:42:46.520 another hour hoping this guy fucks off and continue and lance says are you okay still 0.65

01:42:53.980 and tyler says yes check and spot again now we'll sorry now we're on page six continue reading 0.94

01:43:03.020 We'll update soon.

01:43:05.020 He continues,

01:43:05.720 The squad car was moved further away enough that I should be able to move in.

01:43:09.960 I backed off because I thought I heard footsteps, maybe a foot patrol, 0.98

01:43:13.880 but the crickets here are so fucking loud. 0.99

01:43:17.100 Going to see if the road closer to campus is open so I can drive past and check shit out. 0.99

01:43:23.180 Probably still closed off, though. 0.58

01:43:25.320 Getting worried, hard to know for sure, but I'm not finding my rifle.

01:43:29.360 Could be in the wrong spot.

01:43:30.460 Lance says do you think they found it

01:43:34.140 and Tyler says don't know they haven't published anything if they have

01:43:38.560 and then Lance says why did you leave it behind

01:43:42.300 oh sorry Kimberly if you could scroll down

01:43:47.080 originally also does it have a serial number

01:43:52.500 we could scroll to page 7

01:43:54.580 and i'll continue reading i'll stop you on this page in a little bit okay so tyler continues

01:44:07.660 idek if i had uh if it had a serial number but it wouldn't trace to me i worry about prints

01:44:16.820 i had to leave it in a in a bush where i changed outfits didn't have the ability or time to bring

01:44:22.880 it with and stop there please and then if we could go to the next page page eight

01:44:27.420 and if you could start at the top

01:44:33.400 okay so Lance says was your change of clothes there or was that also gone or did you bring

01:44:41.840 those with you originally anyway you could replace the gun or would he notice then Tyler

01:44:49.600 says only thing i left was the rifle wrapped in a towel i'll bet that canine sniffed it out

01:44:54.400 a little snitching bastard we replace it unlikely i don't fully know what the gun was because it was 0.98

01:45:01.500 old as shit and gramps did some modifying there was a four-digit serial serial on it god only 0.99

01:45:08.080 knows who it's registered to hopefully some dead guy who gave it to grandpa and he continues 0.99

01:45:14.940 remember how I was engraving bullets the fucking messages are mostly a big 0.99

01:45:19.500 meme if I see notices bulge UWU on Fox News I might have a stroke and then 0.98

01:45:28.500 continue I'll stop you in a moment says all right I'm gonna have to leave it 0.96

01:45:32.760 that really fucking sucks let me stop you there and then if we could go on to 0.92

01:45:37.800 The next page, page 9. 0.98

01:45:42.060 And do you see the first blue message we see on page 9?

01:45:46.900 Can you start there?

01:45:48.460 Yes.

01:45:49.820 So Lance says, do you need it for hunting?

01:45:53.540 And Tyler says, no, my dad wanted to use a high caliber for the rifle hunt.

01:45:58.660 Judging from today, I say Graham's gun does just fine, IDK.

01:46:03.860 I think that was a 2K scope.

01:46:07.800 Lance says geez and then Tyler says OMW home 3.5 hours, Lance says drive safe and then

01:46:19.560 Tyler says delete this exchange and I'll stop you right there and then sorry we're

01:46:24.520 on page 9 if we can scroll to page 15

01:46:37.800 and then the second grade message on page 15 if you could start there

01:46:49.160 okay so this is tyler i'm going to turn myself in willingly

01:46:53.620 one of my neighbors here is a deputy for the sheriff

01:46:57.000 we hope to keep things sort of quiet here and then i'll stop you there

01:47:01.100 okay and we can remove uh the exhibit from the screen thank you

01:47:05.720 Kimberly.

01:47:10.080 We mentioned a cell bright extraction of Mr. Twig's phone.

01:47:13.060 Do you know what time that last text was sent?

01:47:17.300 Yeah, I recall it was just before 8 p.m. on September 11th.

01:47:22.400 It was, I think, 7.42 p.m. is my recollection.

01:47:25.360 I'm sorry, September 11th?

01:47:28.120 Yes.

01:47:30.180 Would September 12th make more sense?

01:47:35.720 makes sense or you're saying September 11th? So September 11th was when we turned himself in

01:47:42.360 September 11th. Thank you. All right I'm going to show just for the witness state's exhibit 16.2.

01:47:49.700 let me know when you see that okay i see it do you recognize this i do yep what is it

01:48:06.780 uh this is just more photos of lance's phone and these are sorry these are the the uh

01:48:15.120 Sorry, go with your question, please.

01:48:22.300 I'm just asking what it is.

01:48:23.800 So you said it's a photo of Lance's phone.

01:48:25.780 Do you know if that's from the same time period as the exhibit we just looked at?

01:48:29.120 Yes.

01:48:30.320 And what is it of?

01:48:32.360 These are the Discord messages that Lance had talked about.

01:48:37.760 How do you know that?

01:48:39.240 So Lance, in the first interview with FBI, shows the phone, the photos are taken by Agent Larson,

01:48:46.200 and then these images are shown to Lance during his second interview,

01:48:49.960 and it confirms that these are those same messages, and this is photos of Lance's phone.

01:48:56.340 You mentioned an Agent Larson took the photos.

01:49:00.000 Do you know if he's the same agent that took the photos of this exhibit, 16.2?

01:49:04.340 Yes, same agent.

01:49:05.920 And you spoke with him to confirm that?

01:49:07.540 Yes, I did.

01:49:08.480 Are you aware if Mr. Twiggs is actually part of this discord thread?

01:49:14.400 Yes, he is a part of it.

01:49:17.400 He doesn't, in this section, he doesn't reply to it,

01:49:21.460 but he does state in his statement that he was part of that thread.

01:49:25.940 Does he identify whether Mr. Robinson is part of that thread?

01:49:29.180 He does.

01:49:30.280 And when did that happen?

01:49:32.280 He identifies that in his first interview with the two FBI agents,

01:49:37.560 And then he again confirms that in the second interview.

01:49:40.960 Did Mr. Twiggs say what username on Discord Mr. Robinson used, at least with respect to this thread?

01:49:46.720 Yes, it's the Tyler slash IKUM, I-K-U-M.

01:49:51.900 And is 16, exhibit 16.2, a fair and accurate representation of that Discord thread?

01:49:58.160 Yes, it is.

01:50:01.540 Did law enforcement send, as part of your investigation, did law enforcement send a subpoena to Discord?

01:50:06.720 Yes they did. Were these messages recovered via that subpoena? They were. Did

01:50:14.220 you review that? Yes I did. And in States Exhibit 16.2 that is before you, when is

01:50:23.160 the first message from Tyler sent? 7.57 p.m. And it says yesterday. Do you have any

01:50:32.940 knowledge of what day that would have been? Yes, this would have been September

01:50:37.500 11th. So Tyler sends the first message that you're seeing on Exhibit 16.2

01:50:48.120 September 11th at 7 57 p.m. Yes, that's correct. You testified earlier that Mr.

01:50:53.700 Robinson arrived at the Washington County Sheriff's Office approximately at

01:50:58.380 9 p.m., is that right? Yes, that's correct. And although you weren't physically present there

01:51:05.600 yet because you were flying down, how do you know that he arrived approximately around 9 p.m.?

01:51:10.340 Just based on the police reports I reviewed and then go back and look at the video and such.

01:51:15.280 Judge, the state moves to admit

01:51:26.240 State's Exhibit 16.2 and publish it

01:51:31.220 pursuant to court order

01:51:32.460 Thank you, we've already lodged all of our objections on all three phases

01:51:37.300 Noting the objections, standing objections by defense

01:51:41.720 State's Exhibit 16.2 is admitted into evidence and may be published only in the gallery, not for distribution on electronic media.

01:51:59.000 Sirius XM fans, if you are listening to us now, we've lost audio from the proceeding, we think, intentionally on their part.

01:52:04.640 They've turned off the mics, we believe, right now to have a private consultation between the judge and the lawyers on whether the public can have access to the Discord messages of Tyler Robinson, Lance Twiggs, and others in their gaming group.

01:52:20.060 There were at least three confessions alleged by my count.

01:52:26.340 One was the letter that he left under Lance Twiggs' keyboard.

01:52:29.820 one was the text messages he and Lance Twiggs had about the letter and what he had done

01:52:35.980 and one was in the discord group message chat where he confessed they said at 7 57 p.m on 9 11

01:52:45.100 the day after the murder one hour before he showed up at the sheriff's office to turn himself in

01:52:51.300 um just we're going to go back in there when the when they allow us to hear what's happening again

01:52:58.300 but what an extraordinary 40 minutes we all just had together.

01:53:02.080 My God.

01:53:04.060 Tyler Robinson went back home.

01:53:07.720 He returned to his apartment with Lance Twiggs the day after the murder.

01:53:14.380 And they walked around together on 9-11 during the day and talked about what he'd done.

01:53:22.860 Moreover, we heard, we'll get to all of this,

01:53:24.580 but moreover we heard far more about their text exchange than has been made public the text

01:53:31.860 exchange we know about because law enforcement identified it in their what's called the criminal

01:53:37.160 information the thing that brings charges and we had been reading from that we've read from it

01:53:42.940 extensively on the show this week this is the first we've heard some of the additional lines

01:53:47.600 that were eliminated by ellipses

01:53:50.400 in the criminal information.

01:53:52.380 And they were interesting.

01:53:55.180 They were telling in some instances,

01:53:57.460 but we're getting a much more full picture

01:53:59.380 of the exchange that they had.

01:54:02.620 Like State's Exhibit 16.1, Wednesday at 11 p.m.

01:54:06.880 When what happened was Tyler Robinson

01:54:09.940 had a pre-set text,

01:54:13.380 like an automated text that showed up

01:54:15.260 on Lance Twig's phone

01:54:17.400 um that read drop what you were doing look under my keyboard oh we're back stand by i'll get back

01:54:25.460 to you let's let's listen i'm on september 10th um and so at that point uh lance finds this this

01:54:34.380 is the letter he finds under that keyboard okay so to clarify mr twiggs gets a text from mr robinson

01:54:40.880 around 11 p.m. on September 10th, telling him to look under his keyboard?

01:54:46.220 Yes, correct.

01:54:47.080 And this is what Mr. Twiggs represented was underneath the keyboard?

01:54:51.900 Yes, yes.

01:54:56.960 How did law enforcement get this photograph?

01:55:01.360 So following Lance's first interview at St. George PD,

01:55:06.520 his phone is recovered at that point, taken into evidence.

01:55:09.900 It is downloaded, I believe it was the following day or shortly after that, the FBI transported that phone to the RCFL, which is the Regional Computer Forensic Laboratory in Salt Lake City.

01:55:23.560 The phone was downloaded through Celebrite, and after that, following that download that was complete, SBI received a flash drive containing that download.

01:55:39.220 From there, it went to a SIAC analyst to go through that data of his phone

01:55:44.680 to look for any pertinent evidence or information that may be on there.

01:55:50.140 And at that point, this image of this letter was located.

01:55:58.600 All right. I'm going to break down a few things.

01:56:01.380 You mentioned, I just want to make sure the record's clear,

01:56:04.540 you mentioned Celebrate a few times. What is Celebrate?

01:56:07.060 It's a downloading software that's commonly used by law enforcement.

01:56:11.600 I don't do that myself, but it's commonly used to recover data, to download electronic devices, particularly cell phones.

01:56:20.800 And then you mentioned SIAC. What does that mean?

01:56:23.240 It's the Statewide Information Analysis Center.

01:56:26.240 It's a division within DPS. It's a fusion center.

01:56:30.320 They assist law enforcement with intelligence, various intelligence information for our investigations.

01:56:40.300 You mentioned that you don't personally do Cellbrite phone extractions.

01:56:45.140 Have you spoken to the law enforcement officers that performed the Cellbrite extraction on Mr. Twig's phone in this case?

01:56:51.920 I don't believe I specifically talked to those individuals, RCFL, that did that.

01:56:57.340 But that was then provided to SBI

01:57:03.580 Did you speak with officers at SBI that have recovered this photo that we're seeing in States Exhibit 16.3?

01:57:10.920 Yes, I have spoken with an SIAC analyst who particularly found this image

01:57:18.180 I've spoken to her personally as well

01:57:19.900 Was Mr. Twiggs shown what's been marked as States Exhibit 16.3 during his second interview?

01:57:27.880 Yes, he was.

01:57:29.240 And again, you were present for that?

01:57:30.880 Yes, I was there.

01:57:32.340 Is Exhibit 16.3 a fair and accurate representation of the photo law enforcement obtained from Mr. Twig's phone

01:57:38.880 and that he was subsequently shown in the second interview?

01:57:43.080 Yes, it's fair and accurate.

01:57:46.200 Your Honor, the state would move to admit Exhibit 16.3 and then also publish pursuant to court order.

01:57:55.400 Mr. Novak.

01:57:56.240 Just noting the objections that have previously been made, and I think that the court's order is that it may be published in the courtroom only.

01:58:03.860 Thank you. Noting the standing objection by defense, 16.3, correct?

01:58:11.260 Correct.

01:58:12.020 Is admitted into evidence and may be published only in the courtroom and not be shown or videoed.

01:58:19.320 once again they've cut the mics inside the courtroom to have a discussion about we don't

01:58:26.980 know what uh they're planning on publishing that exhibit inside the courtroom but not beyond for

01:58:32.520 now but we know what it is at least in part it's the note that we were talking about just as we

01:58:39.100 tossed back to the courtroom that tyler robinson left for lance twigs underneath tyler robinson's

01:58:46.360 keyboard in his bedroom in the apartment that they shared. On September 10th, 2022, sorry, 25,

01:58:53.380 the day after Charlie was killed, sorry, the day Charlie was killed, Tyler had set the text message

01:59:03.540 on his phone, the text messaging function to deliver an automated message to Lance Twiggs

01:59:10.440 that read, drop what you are doing and look under my keyboard. We know from the criminal information,

01:59:15.940 even though they're not showing us what was under the keyboard, that there was a note.

01:59:21.020 This is I'm reading directly from the criminal information.

01:59:23.080 The roommate looked under the keyboard and found a note that stated, quote, I had the

01:59:26.160 opportunity to take out Charlie Kirk and I'm going to take it, end quote.

01:59:31.460 Police found a photograph of this note.

01:59:34.020 You heard them talking about that in court just there.

01:59:35.880 They found that photograph on Lance Twig's phone thanks to this Celebrite technology.

01:59:41.720 It was unclear to me whether that was still in his photographs as an easily retrievable photo or whether he had deleted the photo.

01:59:50.920 And that's why they needed this technology celebrate to find it.

01:59:54.040 Did not hear testimony about that.

01:59:57.240 And then the criminal information adds the following text exchange then took place.

02:00:03.160 And then you heard the long and back and forth on it.

02:00:05.700 Let's go back into the court.

02:00:07.280 How do you know that?

02:00:09.280 I've viewed the FBI's website, and I recall seeing these images released on September 11th.

02:00:17.400 Does State's Exhibit 16.4, is that a fair and accurate representation of what you reviewed from the FBI and that the FBI released?

02:00:25.800 Yes, it is.

02:00:27.020 The state moves to admit Exhibit 16.4 and publish according to court order.

02:00:36.280 Mr. Nunvack.

02:00:37.020 no further objections thank you all right and noting the standing objection by defense

02:00:42.480 overruling that objection states exhibit 16.4 is admitted into evidence and may be published

02:00:50.000 in the courtroom and again in the in the discord

02:00:56.520 okay once again they argue uh and then they pop back up i guess they're arguing i mean just

02:01:04.520 just when they identify the exhibits, I guess they don't want us to hear what they're identifying.

02:01:08.720 I'm guessing from what we heard at the tail end there, we know that 16.1 was, I believe,

02:01:17.760 text messages. 16.2 was the discord messages. Wait, 16.1. Yes. 16.1 was the text messages.

02:01:28.640 You're joking, right? And then we heard Tyler add, fuck, I tried to delete that. That's new. 0.98

02:01:34.080 That's new.

02:01:34.740 That was not in the criminal information as something Tyler said.

02:01:37.780 But so he texted him, look under my keyboard.

02:01:40.760 He looked under the keyboard.

02:01:42.120 Then he responds to Tyler saying, and he reads, I had the opportunity to take out Charlie

02:01:47.820 Kirk and I'm going to take it.

02:01:48.960 Then he texts to Charlie, what?

02:01:50.600 With multiple question marks.

02:01:52.700 You're joking, right? 0.99

02:01:53.880 And what we now know is Robinson responded, fuck, I tried to delete that. 0.99

02:01:59.340 Very interesting. 0.95

02:02:00.260 um so i guess tyler had sent this automated message it's kind of interesting and if tyler's

02:02:08.620 telling the truth that he tried to delete that text to to lance then tyler was taken aback by

02:02:14.480 lance's text which must have come out of the blue in a way to him at you know 10 p.m that night

02:02:21.380 saying what you're joking right and tyler's first response was f i tried to delete that

02:02:27.800 and then they were off to the races with, um, Tyler. There was a lot more in the actual text

02:02:36.220 exchange than there was in the criminal information. And we have the screen grabs

02:02:38.780 from the actual texts, which we will go through. I can't do that live on the air with you right now,

02:02:42.920 but you heard them. Um, a lot more details about what, why are they parked there? The crickets

02:02:49.120 are loud. Does, um, does anyone else know? Not to my knowledge. That was the first we heard all of

02:02:55.720 those details and then Tyler telling Lance delete this exchange also so interesting did he again I

02:03:04.160 don't know if they got that text exchange off of Lance's text message records like we all have on

02:03:09.720 our phones or thanks to that crime bright technology that retreats it here's one we're

02:03:16.240 showing can you text it to me Steve so I can see it up close I can't read the monitor from

02:03:19.380 where I am. So yeah, unclear to me whether Tyler actually had, I'm sorry, Lance had deleted all of

02:03:28.320 this and they just recovered it or whether it was still on his phone. Either way, the efforts to

02:03:34.940 cover it up by delete this exchange did not work. It's all there. For the first time, we're actually

02:03:42.100 seeing the back and forth with like the text message. Here it is reading here, 7 p.m.

02:03:49.380 Does that still work for you?

02:03:50.380 Wait, hold on a second.

02:03:51.560 Well, this is before the shooting, I guess.

02:03:54.540 I'm trying to read it on my phone.

02:03:56.900 I love you.

02:03:58.940 Moi, moi.

02:03:59.720 I love you more.

02:04:02.000 So much, much.

02:04:03.500 So moi, moi.

02:04:04.240 They're doing the kissy sounds.

02:04:05.380 These are, okay.

02:04:07.460 That's actually quite interesting.

02:04:08.660 This is the lead up to his automated text alerting Lance that he's killed Charlie.

02:04:15.400 And they talk.

02:04:15.960 So you get a feel a little bit for how these two talk.

02:04:18.160 this is earlier I can't tell the date but it's it's prior to the murder a day I can see it's

02:04:24.580 maybe the Sunday prior to the Wednesday murder 7 p.m. does that still or that still work for you

02:04:32.520 yep I love you that's Monday it's blurry but I think I can read that it's Monday at 1 15 I love

02:04:40.440 you, writes, I think, Tyler. Yeah. Lance responds, love you, too. Hope work's going well. Then

02:04:52.300 Wednesday, well, Wednesday, that was the day of the murder, and it's 4.33 p.m. Well, that's

02:05:00.980 fascinating. And Wednesday, 4.33 p.m., Tyler texts Lance, love you, like M-W-A-H, typed out

02:05:10.420 Twice. And, and Tyler responds, I'm sorry, Lance responds. I love you. More Z's. Moi, moi, moi.

02:05:17.420 I mean, okay. Then that same day, Wednesday at 11 PM comes in from Tyler, drop what you are doing.

02:05:27.820 Look under my keyboard. And Lance responds, what with the X clip with a question marks marks.

02:05:32.760 You're joking, right? And then fuck, I tried to delete that. Very interesting. And we're getting 0.98

02:05:39.400 more. But, but truly the most interesting thing to me that we've heard in all of this is that he

02:05:46.960 went, Tyler went back home on September 11th, the day after the murder that Lance said, I saw him

02:05:55.360 when I woke up, he was walking around the house. I went, I went home and it was just Tyler there.

02:06:01.520 I said goodbye to him. And I went back to my parents' house. The prosecutor was asking if he

02:06:08.200 was acting erratically, which Lance had apparently signed on to and then said, yes, he was pacing

02:06:14.700 around a lot. Lance said he didn't go into detail about what he had done, but I asked him if what

02:06:22.540 he said the night before was true. And he said, yes, he cried and said he wished he hadn't done

02:06:29.860 it. Unbelievable. What's that? We're back, Steve? Oh, no, we're not back. Okay. Yeah.

02:06:40.040 He cried and said he wished he hadn't done it. He said he would talk to his parents

02:06:45.060 or turn himself in. When you left, was that the plan? Yes. I did not want to be at our apartment

02:06:51.640 when that happened or when he said possible law enforcement got there and went from there.

02:06:58.020 and this is just, it's chilling. I don't know. It's just, you know, he cried and said he wished

02:07:10.660 he hadn't done it. And what good does that do? He was crying on September 11th, wishing he hadn't

02:07:18.400 done it. Think of the condition of Erica Kirk and the nation, all of us. Okay. So this is the first

02:07:31.200 we've had any indication he's sorry. He's sorry that he did it. Great. It's not going to spare

02:07:38.220 his life. It's just something about knowing that. Not as forgiving as Erica. It's galling in some

02:07:45.400 way. Okay. You're sorry. Maybe you should have thought about it a little bit more before you

02:07:49.280 took out your... All right. We're going to bring in our legal panel and get their thoughts. Mark

02:07:55.620 and Matt are out, but Dave Ehrenberg is here along with Mark Eichlarsh, as well as Viva Fry.

02:08:01.800 Viva's a Rumble host, Dave's former prosecutor of Palm Beach County, and Mark is a criminal and

02:08:08.640 civil attorney. Guys, pretty stunning, pretty stunning stuff there. My jaw was on the floor.

02:08:15.040 We did get to see Lance Twiggs, first of all. Part of the video was played, which I thought was very helpful because you could see him. He was in a suit. He was dressed as a man, even though the defense keeps calling him Luna. He said he's only Luna for some people. But he was wearing a video. He was wearing a suit in the video. He had long hair. He was chewing gum. Here's a picture of him, which they then asked him to spit out, which he did.

02:08:40.700 And to think of Tyler Robinson sitting in that courtroom, Dave Ehrenberg, watching his roommate, former lover, whom he will never see again in all likelihood in person, or at least not never be able to touch, give it all up.

02:09:01.380 you know talk about the text messages the the letter that was found under the keyboard

02:09:08.240 the the conversation the day after an extraordinary conversation the day after

02:09:14.180 i can only imagine what the dynamic was inside that courtroom your reaction to what we just heard

02:09:18.440 megan i thought that twigs came across as credible it sounds like he had no part in this and he

02:09:25.940 generally was shocked that tyler robinson did this and these messages are really damning i know there

02:09:33.540 are a lot of people on the internet that want to believe what they want to believe there's nothing

02:09:38.060 that could prove otherwise that they think this is some international conspiracy or somehow tyler

02:09:43.040 robinson was framed but you've got a guy who confessed at least three and possibly four times

02:09:49.980 You have the note under the keyboard and then you have him saying, oh, he had forgotten he had sent the the text that alerted Twiggs to the note under the keyboard. 0.98

02:10:01.620 Oh, darn. So, I mean, it's very typical for a moron like Tyler Robinson to act like that. 0.99

02:10:08.100 Number two, you've got the subsequent one that he justified the murder because he had enough of Charlie's hatred. 0.99

02:10:14.120 Then you had the discord chat later on. And then you had and I don't think we've heard it yet, but you're going to hear about how when his parents confronted him, he confessed to his parents, according to report.

02:10:25.740 So four times. And for those out there who think, well, the wording of one of those confessions is so Shakespearean, it could not have come from an incel like this guy. 0.57

02:10:35.980 no you saw subsequent messages like his his dismay that they could find the rifle and what

02:10:43.440 is he going to do to replace his grandfather's rifle and he was cursing and he was scared

02:10:47.720 that's who this guy is they've got the right guy even the you know like the kissy like

02:10:54.780 clearly they don't communicate the way right some of us would conjure up in our heads like

02:11:00.980 the gamers, these, you know, young gamers, like these are two gay men, at least one of whom maybe

02:11:08.840 both are a furry, one of whom may or may not be trans. Like, I don't think we can be assuming how 0.53

02:11:16.880 they talk. I think we need to be reading the text messages to glean how they talk.

02:11:20.980 Megan, that's such a good point. I was on our show, MK True Crime, and I was debating

02:11:25.480 with Lauren Conlon about that, about the language used. And she said, it does sound weird and

02:11:30.460 unusual and I don't see it. I can't relate to it. And I said, yeah, you're not a furry, right? I

02:11:35.860 mean, we're talking about a whole different universe of people here. And so we're supposed

02:11:40.900 to be like, well, they don't comply with our current standards of decency and language. Come

02:11:46.320 on. The whole thing is weird. Yeah. I don't know a lot of 20 year old guys who are doing that

02:11:50.800 to each other like that. Okay. We're in a different territory here already on the preceding

02:11:57.480 texts, which came days before. So if this is like all some FBI plot to like come up with a text

02:12:03.460 message, boy, they did a good job. They went back days. They made the super gay exchanges between

02:12:07.820 the two of them to set up phrases like my love. I don't you know, whatever. But Mark, I got listening 0.98

02:12:14.160 to that whole thing was pretty extraordinary. But the Lance Twig testimonial and the evidence that

02:12:18.500 came in right right after from that agent who we listened to. That was Lauren Hunt, the deputy DA

02:12:26.100 doing the cross-examination and, sorry, who did, say that again, Steve? Oh, Agent Davis. Oh yeah,

02:12:34.640 it was Agent Brian Davis with the Utah State Bureau of Investigation. Your reaction to what

02:12:40.740 you heard? I thought the testimony was compelling. I think the state did a great job laying it out,

02:12:45.660 not just for the judge, who again, I think, you know, in 20 minutes would have found probable

02:12:50.140 cause. But for those independents, I'll call them, not the conspiracy theorists, they're never going

02:12:56.940 to be convinced. It doesn't matter. This is nail in the coffin right here. It's so clear that he's

02:13:02.320 guilty. But for those people, it doesn't matter for the independents. And by that, I mean those

02:13:08.020 who are reasonable, those who, like myself, have an open mind and say, OK, I wasn't there. I don't

02:13:13.400 know what happened. Prove to me the chain of custody that there weren't some agents who said,

02:13:18.740 let's frame this guy like the Mona Lisa for some reason, leaving the true killer out there

02:13:23.300 for no reason at all, risking their life in prison to frame Tyler Robinson, which makes

02:13:30.660 zero sense. I think they did a great job of laying this out. Now, I do want one other point.

02:13:36.700 The fact that he feels sorry for what he did, to me, there was only one thing that came from that.

02:13:41.960 if ever politics get put aside and prosecutors choose to extend a life in prison offer where

02:13:51.840 he waives his right to appeal and he goes away, no big trial, no more copycat folks because

02:13:58.820 they're watching him and all the media attention he's getting. If they ever do that, it's more

02:14:04.440 likely, in my opinion, that he would accept something like that because of that remark,

02:14:10.020 that he felt sorry for what he did.

02:14:12.040 He's not one of these hardcore folks

02:14:13.940 who can't wait to take the witness stand

02:14:15.600 and read all the things that caused him

02:14:17.540 to be so offended by what Kirk said

02:14:21.020 that might have caused him to do this.

02:14:22.760 He's not seeking his 15 minutes.

02:14:24.400 It looks like he would likely take a play.

02:14:27.920 Viva, your thoughts?

02:14:29.100 Well, I was gonna say one thing,

02:14:30.380 to Mark's point, people are gonna say guilty.

02:14:34.580 Remind everybody, this is just probable cause.

02:14:37.020 Probable cause has been established, period, full stop.

02:14:40.020 People can still say it wasn't him in the video. Lance Twiggs is lying. OK, you'll raise your reasonable doubt at trial. From a probable cause perspective, this preliminary hearing is over with a big fat period at the end of it. I'm not convinced, you know, unlike Dave, I'm not convinced. Lance might have come off as sincere, but I'm more convinced now than I was before that he had some involvement in this.

02:15:03.940 You know, one question I would have loved for, I think it was Brian Davis who asked him the questions in the video, whoever was asking him the questions, I would have loved for them to ask Lance if he was Ryan McBride, sorry, I would have loved for them to have asked if he knew what messages Tyler engraved in the bullets, because if you're going hunting with your family, you don't need hey, fascist catch on the bullet.

02:15:24.740 But I'm still thoroughly convinced people in the Discord chats had advanced knowledge.

02:15:30.880 I'm convinced there were more people involved in the planning.

02:15:33.700 And certainly now we're seeing in the cover up afterwards a people who aided and abetted Tyler Robinson after the act.

02:15:39.660 And I believe that many of them had foreknowledge of what was coming beforehand.

02:15:43.080 But from a probable cause perspective, it's over and let people try to raise whatever reasonable doubt they think they can, despite the evidence.

02:15:51.540 But just to answer all those people on Twitter on X right now, it's the wrong guy. He wasn't the right height. Those those exchanges were manufactured. You'll raise a reasonable doubt. But when it comes to probable cause, it's been established. And Lance's testimony was the nail in the coffin.

02:16:05.420 Yeah. And the other thing is you can hear the prosecution who's clearly, you know, they've been listening to the alternate theories, I'll say, because they spent time asking him about the discord phone of the discord confession, you know, where he the last thing he did before he put himself into custody with that sheriff's deputy friend was to go on discord and confess again.

02:16:30.980 and one of the theories out there has been that was clearly a lie because he was in custody at

02:16:38.040 the time that message on discord was posted at 7 57 p.m on 9 11 the day after the shooting and

02:16:46.000 you saw the prosecutor there that lauren hunt the deputy da going through the timeline and the

02:16:53.020 officer said 7 57 p.m that is when tyler posted that message on discord and she said and when

02:16:59.560 did he arrive at the sheriff's office and he said 9 p.m uh so establishing the timeline again that's

02:17:06.980 not for the judge that that's to prove to the world he was not in custody when he posted that

02:17:11.980 discord to confession he was still at his home he had plenty of time to get down to the local

02:17:18.340 uh sheriff's office and turn himself in um i do think it's interesting like i don't know whether

02:17:24.660 the message, the photo of the message that was left under the keyboard and or the text messages

02:17:31.220 were turned over by Lance Twiggs or found by Celebrite. I, to this moment, don't know that.

02:17:37.560 And let's not forget, Dave, one of the interesting things is he did not call law enforcement. Lance

02:17:43.820 Twiggs did not call the cops, didn't call him on 910, didn't call him on 911 when he got that

02:17:49.760 message from from tyler he didn't call him when he saw tyler walking around the house and read

02:17:54.740 double down on the on the confession they they had to go to him after tyler turned himself in

02:17:59.520 so i don't know i mean in another world you could see the da someone like yourself and the cops

02:18:05.640 finding a way to slap charges on this guy no yeah especially because twigs's dna was found on the

02:18:12.160 screwdriver and uh and on the towel were covered with the rifle and they lived together so you

02:18:17.900 could have an innocent explanation but if you wanted to say that twigs was an accessory he

02:18:22.400 didn't report it um you could try the thing is is that it's got to be more than knowing about it uh

02:18:29.440 and uh not saying there's no good samaritan law that you have to report but if he tried to cover

02:18:36.060 it up if he helped tyler robinson evade capture or cover it up then he could be charged as an

02:18:42.420 accessory he's only been given use immunity for his testimony so that means they could develop

02:18:46.400 independently evidence against him so he's not out of the woods yet but my take and i don't totally

02:18:51.640 disagree with viva my take is that he sounded credible and i don't think he was an accessory

02:18:58.180 to it but i would keep an open mind that if they do have evidence that showed that he helped

02:19:02.340 keep the heat away from his roommate then yeah then they should go after him too

02:19:06.880 the i'm just going through my notes on his testimony uh he said okay they spent the night

02:19:15.660 together in the same apartment on nine, nine the night before the crime. Uh, when did he leave

02:19:20.240 early? He said maybe 5.00 AM could have been even earlier. 1.00 AM saying that he had to work that

02:19:25.720 day. He had a long drive to work that day. And it wasn't until late that evening, 11 PM or 10,

02:19:32.540 according to my text here that he received the automated message. Um, he did cop to seeing Tyler

02:19:39.740 engraved bullets earlier. Tyler told him that he was going hunting with his family,

02:19:46.000 told him to make sure, oh, he told Tyler to make sure he did not set off the bullet in the house.

02:19:51.940 Tyler asked about a Dremel to engrave. I didn't know what that was, but my team found a picture

02:19:56.760 of a Dremel and it's like a machine that, I don't know, it's like a carving, I guess, machine.

02:20:02.060 A mini handyman's tool, like a dentist drill, but more powerfully, you switch the end if you

02:20:06.260 want to cut, engrave, whatever. It's a good tool. I mean, you have to be very precise at the end if

02:20:11.160 you're engraving a bullet. It's a pencil tip. I mean, you can basically use it as a pencil for

02:20:15.500 engraving and then you can buff stuff out of it. It's very useful. I mean, that in and of itself,

02:20:21.680 Viva, really is suspicious. Like they're sitting in the same room and he's engraving bullets and

02:20:27.680 they're lovers. And he doesn't say, what do you have there? What are you engraving? I'm telling

02:20:33.680 It might be my own bias because I'm coming into Lance's testimony already believing what I believe and I want to find things to substantiate it, but that he's not even more shocked at what has happened, that he doesn't put, that he claims that he didn't put any of this together and it's only late in the evening that it even clicks with him that Tyler might have done this.

02:20:52.000 I've got great difficulty believing that

02:20:54.660 but one of my

02:20:56.600 takeaways is listening to Lance talk about him

02:20:58.600 waking up at, was it 12 or 1 o'clock

02:21:00.560 in the afternoon because he didn't have work that day

02:21:02.320 what repulses me in all of this

02:21:04.580 and at the end of the day

02:21:05.740 people are going to analyze this like a murder trial

02:21:08.480 and it turns into something

02:21:09.940 a technical analysis

02:21:11.920 is the humans behind this

02:21:13.780 you have these two degenerates 0.52

02:21:16.400 one more so than the other

02:21:17.980 and now at the center of the universe

02:21:20.160 It almost feels like they love the attention that they're getting right now.

02:21:23.300 Lance is being asked questions about his childhood and, you know, the games that they used to play.

02:21:26.980 And it's like it's all the attention in the world that they've ever wanted because they snuffed out of this earth an existence of a man that was incomparably a better human.

02:21:39.000 It just makes it nauseous to me to actually listen to this testimony where they might even revel in the attention.

02:21:43.740 And Tyler never got this much attention in his life before.

02:21:46.820 And what made him famous was snuffing out the life of Charlie Kirk.

02:21:50.160 Oh, stomach turning. Who would have been a future president without question? Who led a movement,

02:21:57.880 who led a Christian revival, who at such a young age had already made such a difference in our

02:22:04.380 world, just a profound impact on so many levels. And yeah, these two losers sitting there with 0.98

02:22:10.400 their pot and whatever else they were doing in that apartment, their stupid memes and their 1.00

02:22:15.060 gamer life contributing next to nothing took it all away he was asked did you read that note that 0.99

02:22:23.160 automated message yes around 11 on on september 10th they showed a picture of it they they uh he

02:22:29.860 said then he read the note and then he put the note back on on tyler's desk we don't clearly

02:22:35.840 tyler got rid of it because we've never seen the actual note the only reason we know about that

02:22:41.500 note that was under uh tyler's keyboard that tyler told lance to go look for is because lance

02:22:47.860 took a picture of it and the cops found that picture on his phone and ultimately found him

02:22:53.540 after tyler confessed but they've never gotten the actual note clearly tyler went there and did some

02:22:58.260 cleanup the next day which is interesting um let's see he left a message i don't think i meant

02:23:06.320 He saw Tyler.

02:23:07.700 We talked about that.

02:23:08.500 Didn't go into detail.

02:23:09.840 Yeah, I asked him whether what he said the night before was true.

02:23:13.620 Yes.

02:23:14.000 I mean, that's another confession, Mark.

02:23:16.300 We now have the confession in the note.

02:23:18.900 We have the confession in the texts.

02:23:20.700 We have the confession in the Discord.

02:23:23.040 We appear to have very close to a confession to his parents.

02:23:28.260 I mean, it's as close as you can get.

02:23:30.700 They don't use that word confession when they discuss what he said to his parents.

02:23:35.180 but here is how they describe it in the criminal information his um they agreed that the person in

02:23:41.440 the surveillance looked like their son they believed the rifle looked like the son that

02:23:44.540 the rifle they'd given him the father contacted the son asked him to send a photo of the rifle

02:23:48.680 robinson did not respond robinson's father spoke on the phone with robinson robinson implied that

02:23:53.700 he planned to take his own life robinson's parents were able to convince him to meet at their home

02:23:57.900 robinson implied that he was the shooter when they met implied that he was the shooter and

02:24:02.900 stated that he couldn't go to jail and just wanted to end it. When asked why he did it,

02:24:07.320 Robinson explained to his parents, there is too much evil. And the guy, Charlie Kirk,

02:24:11.760 spreads too much hate. They talked about Robinson turning himself in and convinced Robinson to speak

02:24:16.280 with a family friend and a retired deputy sheriff. At Robinson's father's request, the family friend

02:24:20.440 met with Robinson and his parents and convinced Robinson to turn himself in. So I don't use the

02:24:24.220 word confession, Mark, but I mean, might as well. And now we have a fifth, a fifth confession when

02:24:31.420 he saw Lance Twiggs the day after. And Lance said, was it true what you texted me? And he said,

02:24:38.320 yeah, it was. I mean, once again, and that he wished he hadn't done it and that he cried as

02:24:46.400 he paced around the apartment, said he would talk to his parents or turn himself in. I mean,

02:24:51.260 how many confessions do we need? Right. One is good enough for me to run to the prosecution

02:24:57.120 and define winning by begging them and pleading them and getting them to offer life.

02:25:03.180 That's why I think that that's what the defense is doing.

02:25:05.560 They're getting past this probable cause of hearing, which, again, as Viva made very clear,

02:25:10.240 I agree with him.

02:25:11.000 The chances of this judge not finding probable cause, I equate to getting struck by lightning

02:25:18.660 while you have the winning lottery ticket in your hand.

02:25:22.480 It is guaranteed to happen.

02:25:25.120 But let me go back to the crying, because I think I keep getting downloads as to why that's even more significant.

02:25:33.600 A guilty verdict, I think, is going to happen at his trial, assuming this isn't resolved to a life sentence.

02:25:40.680 You go to the penalty phase.

02:25:42.020 You got 12 people who are deciding whether he should live or die.

02:25:45.500 And death is different. 0.87

02:25:46.800 However you feel about it, Megan, you would be like, all right, let's go straight to death.

02:25:50.640 No questions asked.

02:25:52.220 It's very personal.

02:25:53.460 And when you start to hear things like him crying, him wishing he didn't do it, while that would have zero impact on you and maybe other panelists here, that could have an impact on at least one of the 12 jurors. And since they require a unanimous verdict to give him death, that's a concern. It's not a guarantee that you're going to get the death penalty here.

02:26:16.380 and the other thing just to continue that thought mark is that everything we hear about tyler

02:26:22.880 robinson like we opened the show today with this reporting from this well-known youtuber and this

02:26:30.700 guy says he was contacted by a friend of the pair of them robinson and twigs and that that person

02:26:37.200 gave this youtuber a bunch of like we showed pictures from what he said was inside their

02:26:42.040 apartment, a bunch of details on both of them, Tyler Robinson and Lance Twiggs. And if you

02:26:47.720 believe all of this, the takeaway is Lance Twiggs was a hot mess and Tyler Robinson was

02:26:56.020 kind of fine, not thriving exactly, but not the problem. Like maybe realizing he was gay, 0.87

02:27:05.020 But like, that's it. He wasn't the one manic and crying and doing experiments with mold and then whisks with metal on them, trying to grow shit in the apartment and, you know, swaying between like huge bouts of depression and then manic, maniacal smiling and giggling while he did these crazy drawings. 0.98

02:27:26.060 that was all twigs. So I, I don't know if, I don't know if that answers anything about how

02:27:33.300 Tyler Robinson one day pulled out his gun and shot Charlie Kirk, according to the prosecution. But

02:27:39.200 it, it's not like hearing about Charles Manson, who is this like frothing at the mouth,

02:27:45.420 serial killer who loved killing. Who's that? That's for you. Oh, it is for me. I mean,

02:27:51.400 No, just agreed. Yeah. Just yeah. It's not like a lifetime of crime. Oh, absolutely. No. And again, that's another argument. I mean, I know it gets people upset to think that there's any way that he might not get death. But it's another argument to be made to the 12 people who are deciding whether he should live or die.

02:28:11.180 The absence of the Charlie Manson-like thought process, the record dating back to the disco

02:28:19.280 crisis, which you would hope to find on someone you're finally going to give the ultimate

02:28:23.340 sanction to, what he did was abhorrent, without question.

02:28:27.460 But again, you've got to fine-tune the argument and say why he should die and not spend the

02:28:32.900 rest of his life in prison.

02:28:34.700 And again, that is not a guaranteed.

02:28:36.740 We've seen it over and over again in high-profile cases where we think it's a slam dunk.

02:28:41.180 And two or three jurors say, you know what?

02:28:43.620 No, it'd be worse for him in jail. 0.99

02:28:46.260 Let him let him live in prison and maybe he'll get killed there. 0.99

02:28:49.140 Something like that. 0.99

02:28:51.040 Here's the soundbite.

02:28:54.120 By the way, before I play it, it's interesting because.

02:28:58.120 What we learned at the top of the show where we talked about that, what the YouTuber reported.

02:29:03.400 Was that Tyler was in a caretaking role toward Lance Twiggs.

02:29:07.120 tyler kind of had his act more together you know he had a job and he wasn't having i don't know if

02:29:15.580 it's bipolar or what but the those huge emotional swings and he was they they described him as as

02:29:21.300 lance's handler but like he had defaulted to a caretaking role of lance twigs and lance is the

02:29:28.500 one who is doing hrt according to this youtuber like really starting to do like like off-market

02:29:33.520 hormone replacement therapy as he grew breasts and was trying to turn himself into a woman

02:29:37.360 which in many circumstances drives people nuts and they unleash violence on us um but it you know

02:29:45.800 along this same line you're going to get an argument that he thought he was taking care

02:29:50.680 of lance twigs that day too you know this hate he was so uh he was so uh he so objected to

02:29:57.780 in Charlie was about this issue. That's, that's what we think they're going to be able to prove.

02:30:05.560 And, um, you know, you see Luna sitting there in a suit with long hair projecting, I don't know

02:30:11.500 what, but this is going to be an ongoing theme that like, this is some sort of a caregiving

02:30:15.440 type situation in Tyler's head. Here's the soundbite from Lance Twiggs about the day after

02:30:22.480 the murder seeing tyler in their apartment and did he talk about what he had done uh didn't go

02:30:30.340 into detail he just i just asked him in person if what he said was true the night before and he said

02:30:37.220 it was i started crying a little bit and said he wishes he hadn't done it uh and then kept

02:30:44.860 going around and just doing stuff i think to keep himself busy or distracted or something

02:30:52.080 and they i mean viva can i just say like i don't believe that there's no way they he just said

02:30:59.380 is it true what you told me last night yes it's true that's what i was just trying to look up

02:31:04.400 in terms of when the first images of tyler robinson were circulated to the public to

02:31:08.700 identify the individual i think i think lance said in his in his testimony oh well lance in

02:31:14.900 his testimony yeah i wasn't on social i wasn't on social media much i first of all i have trouble

02:31:19.840 believing that i'd like to know when the first images were circulated because to me there's no

02:31:24.160 doubt in my mind that he knew it was true and he might have known before that uh text message went

02:31:30.180 out to him and when tyler says oh i meant to delete that i mean some people could say well

02:31:34.640 he meant to delete it to send another type of protection uh self-serving protection email to

02:31:40.540 his lover lance twiggs but i i don't believe it it's like that he comes in he's admitted to what

02:31:45.980 he's done uh you've seen the news i don't care if lance is on social media or not but i believe

02:31:50.460 he is and i believe he knew earlier than than that and then he's like did you really do it and 0.99

02:31:54.800 it's that part is implausible to me except for the fact that his testimony has to cover his own ass 0.70

02:31:59.860 because you know above and beyond his use immunity he doesn't have blanket immunity and he needs to 0.65

02:32:05.320 cover his own but while giving the prosecution what they need uh to go ahead and charge and

02:32:10.380 and convict tyler robinson but no that part doesn't make sense to me and i i would like to

02:32:15.380 know what ty uh lance twig's social media footprint is because i given their age given

02:32:20.680 what they're into given their discord propensities i i don't think his social media footprint is is

02:32:25.240 nothing and i'd love to know what it is i disagree with my team is telling me viva that they released

02:32:30.220 the pictures of the shooter okay again none of us knew who that was we just saw the pictures of the

02:32:35.840 shooter per the fbi at 10 a.m utah time on september 11th okay so would have been i think by

02:32:43.720 this timeline right around when he was seeing tyler robinson in their apartment he says i saw

02:32:49.580 him when i woke up he was walking around the house um so i mean they were probably released

02:32:56.920 by the time he saw him uh and of course the night before he had received the text saying it was me

02:33:03.880 I'm waiting to get my gun. I got to get my gun. It worked pretty good. Grandpa's gun got it done.

02:33:08.520 It was only a two thousand dollar scope. I mean, you've been given a lot of details by Tyler,

02:33:11.800 but I just don't I don't believe that just your lover has just committed a murder, a forgive the

02:33:19.500 term, but sensational murder. And it's all over the news. There's a manhunt and, you know, everywhere

02:33:26.220 the FBI's got your lover's picture out there. And he doesn't come back. Both of the lover's parents

02:33:30.340 knew it was him and and you just say is it is it true what you texted me no you're gonna be like

02:33:37.260 you're gonna know everything why why'd you do it what were you thinking you know now what are you

02:33:43.380 gonna run and if you were in on it the conversation is gonna sound even different than that I don't

02:33:48.520 know Dave Ehrenberg like you're for as a former prosecutor I would think this is a stone you'd

02:33:53.220 want to keep turning like keep digging under that stone to see how far we go yeah and it's precisely

02:33:59.080 the point that defense lawyers will seize upon to cast doubt on his credibility. But as my co-panelist

02:34:06.080 said, this die is cast. I mean, this probable cause hearing is just for probable cause, not

02:34:10.240 for beyond a reasonable doubt. They've got so much evidence. So really, this is about trying

02:34:14.480 to get anything you can to make life miserable for the prosecutors, to force them to come to

02:34:18.720 the table and take the death penalty off the table, out of the equation. So but no, we're not

02:34:24.500 there we're not there yeah that's for sure um it it is it is interesting uh is is that true you

02:34:30.520 know that that does sound like twigs is exaggerating uh what he said at the time it does seem like

02:34:36.200 that's not exactly what he said of course it doesn't or or under exaggerating like under under

02:34:42.640 plays all right yeah yeah under yeah he's downplaying what happened between the two of

02:34:46.720 them yeah yeah but you know they'll say well you know he was they're so shocked this is the kind

02:34:51.820 I think they say. But yes, fair enough. None of it, though, cast any doubt upon who did it and the fact that Tyler Robinson has so much information, including confessions, repeated confessions against him, that he's going down for this.

02:35:04.320 But fair point. The extent of which Twiggs is involved in this is still an open question, even though the authorities apparently, including the FBI, think that he was not involved.

02:35:15.160 And that's why they're going to go to the mat with him as the key witness with use immunity, thinking that he wasn't even an accessory.

02:35:20.320 but you know i'm open to information if we find otherwise megan i guess i'm the only one megan

02:35:26.520 i'm the only one out of four here who thinks that it's possible that it happened exactly as twig

02:35:33.280 said now i also would not be shocked if it didn't happen that way but i'm picturing him saying wait

02:35:40.660 is it true what you told me is that true i i totally can picture that and i also don't see

02:35:46.160 the prosecutors wanting to push any further, especially now because his testimony has been

02:35:52.540 put into evidence. This is what his testimony is. And I don't know that they're going to push any

02:35:57.020 further because it advances the state's case and it's already been done. So I'm just saying I see

02:36:05.380 it play out that way. And I mean, how you would have handled it. And, you know, you don't know

02:36:10.760 what's in these people we are we are nothing like these people so when he says did you you know is

02:36:16.320 did you do it is that is that was it true what you said whatever he said yeah i see him saying that

02:36:21.520 it is that that he allegedly got the text message the night of then uh tyler doesn't come back that

02:36:28.220 evening and then comes back in the morning when the news you know has been fleshed up

02:36:31.860 you know it doesn't at this point it doesn't matter from tyler's perspective the real question

02:36:36.300 is whether or not lance had a greater involvement or anybody else and then you know to go all the

02:36:41.540 way back to joe kent and his investigation or the rumors that he requested the cash patel look into

02:36:46.660 foreign elements you know the idea that they wouldn't want to complicate the prosecution

02:36:51.140 against tyler robinson by further implicating lance twigs is is a theory that others have said

02:36:57.300 is one of the reasons why uh they may not have dug deeper or pursued investigations into lance

02:37:03.660 twigs because it might complicate uh the the conviction that they want to get of at least

02:37:08.420 tyler robinson in this case right um and there was some great frustration in the public eye

02:37:14.160 that it doesn't look like every stone had been unturned in terms of who else might have been

02:37:17.860 involved in this plot and you know who else was on those discord chats but no to me it doesn't i

02:37:22.960 mean again i i all of this is beyond uh human comprehension from anybody with a with a moral

02:37:28.600 compass um but i just i don't believe what lance is saying necessarily oh was it really you i don't

02:37:33.640 To me, it's more like it's to me, it's more like let's cover this up and let's try to find a way to get you out of the country.

02:37:38.300 And, you know, I didn't do anything. So I'll worry about that later.

02:37:41.240 That's how I would see it playing out the next day. Not I'm shocked and stunned.

02:37:44.920 No, it's a holy crap. I think I knew that this was coming and I knew since last night. 0.98

02:37:48.560 And now what are we going to do?

02:37:50.700 I'm not even that. I'm pretty sure I knew that this was coming.

02:37:52.920 I did know this was coming and I told these other lunatics on Discord about it.

02:37:56.840 That's why they've been posting messages saying, wait until you see September 10th and what happens.

02:38:01.980 And then when September 10th came, I told you, you know, like big news is coming at Utah Valley University.

02:38:08.440 You wait. And then it came. Bro, that was it.

02:38:11.880 You know, it's like I I have to believe that the FBI looked into each and every one of those and somehow came away convinced that that was just meaningless talk.

02:38:24.460 I mean, I'm going to guess this is what the FBI would have told us.

02:38:27.160 but there's because there's been no indictments, you know, Viva, that like nobody else got

02:38:32.040 indicted beyond Lance Twiggs. And it could have been Tyler or Lance Twiggs who would have told

02:38:37.240 them some such a thing on here. But there's no way the FBI didn't talk to the people who posted

02:38:42.940 those messages. I agree. And then, you know, if you say, well, I trust the FBI did a thorough

02:38:50.040 investigation, you'll be accused of gobbling up what they refer to as Fedslop these days.

02:38:55.620 I know. But the problem is like to me, if they did not go in and examine each and every person in all of those discord chats, whatever the hell they call it, it's either dereliction of duty or, you know, they don't want to know who was in on those chats.

02:39:13.080 They did. I asked Kash Patel about that directly on this show. I asked him about whether they'd be doing that. And he said, yes, I just he's not an idiot. He wants to solve this case. He wants anybody responsible. And I realize if you're if you if you think the government is behind this, you're saying, what are you saying? No, he doesn't. He wants to. He's part of the cover up. But I don't believe that.

02:39:34.600 I think he wants to solve this case and I would love he would love to indict anybody responsible or who had foreknowledge and had a role.

02:39:41.560 But if he found people with foreknowledge but no role, we deserve to know that, too, because while they may not be indictable, as you guys point out, there's no good Samaritan rule.

02:39:51.660 They they're totally subjected to scorn.

02:39:55.120 They are they should receive all of our scorn.

02:39:58.520 I'd love to know their names. 0.99

02:40:00.440 What if somebody hires one of these lunatics? 1.00

02:40:02.500 Like, who the fuck are they? I'm sorry, but from the beginning, I've wanted to know who are they? 1.00

02:40:08.660 They were predicting his murder when it happened. They said, told you.

02:40:13.480 And we've just been asked to kind of look the other way.

02:40:15.740 And I feel like we've been asked to look the other way on Lance Twiggs, too.

02:40:18.840 Maybe it's because they would preserve his credibility. I don't know. I don't care.

02:40:22.580 But let me read you this quickly. This is this is new from the text message.

02:40:26.660 And three hours ago, there was an there was an officer with a canine walking nearby the area, hoping that pooch has a bad sniffer.

02:40:35.760 I mean, there are reports that there was a bomb sniffing dog or gunpowder and he did not alert.

02:40:42.180 And here's Tyler Robinson saying that I I'm wishing I had circled back and grabbed it as soon as I got to my vehicle, because it sounds like the police couldn't get in for a long while because of the traffic.

02:40:51.720 Needless to say, I'm a be late coming home, my B.

02:40:54.660 and his response is just stay safe that's that's lance i will says tyler i'm more worried about

02:41:02.260 what my old man would do if i didn't bring back grandpa's rifle he's far scarier than any fed

02:41:07.320 not gonna lie guess i'm just sitting in my car watching reels for another hour hoping this guy 0.51

02:41:12.080 fucks off and then lance are you okay still i mean this is not like somebody who sounds like

02:41:19.620 he's gonna call law enforcement and indeed he didn't call law enforcement right but it doesn't 0.99

02:41:24.520 mean he's committing a crime right he he was being sympathetic to his lover and he was trying to

02:41:30.520 support him and he shouldn't win any nice guy awards he's not going to win a good samaritan

02:41:34.880 awards but to me i still lean more towards mark's side that twigs probably had little or nothing to

02:41:43.920 do with this and i did think what he said on the stand was credible so that's my take of it i don't

02:41:50.620 If I'm sitting next to Doug and he's engraving bullets, I'm going to know what's on them.

02:41:56.400 I mean, I'm just going to put myself out there right now and say, I will know.

02:41:59.760 If dear Doug ever got to a point where he's engraving bullets, he will go to great lengths not to let you know what he's doing.

02:42:06.160 That's true.

02:42:07.100 That's true.

02:42:08.340 Dear Doug does not engrave bullets.

02:42:10.740 He doesn't do anything with bullets.

02:42:12.160 And one of the many reasons I love him.

02:42:14.060 Though using firearms for a lot of purposes is fine.

02:42:16.200 Guys, thank you.

02:42:17.180 What a day.

02:42:18.080 More tomorrow.

02:42:18.700 We'll be back then. 0.99

02:42:21.400 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show.

02:42:23.740 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

02:42:31.880 Craving lunch?

02:42:33.140 A crispy chicken sandwich is back at Tim's.

02:42:38.760 With ingredients that make it more delicious than ever.

02:42:44.880 I participate in restaurants in Canada.

The Megyn Kelly Show - July 09, 2026

The Full BOMBSHELL Lance Twiggs Video, Plus New Robinson Texts Revealed, with Geragos, Murphy, Aronberg, Eiglarsh, and Frei ｜ Ep. 1356

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