The Megyn Kelly Show - July 23, 2026


The JonBenét Conspiracies: Presumed Guilty — Ep. 3 | MK Confidential


Episode Stats


Length

28 minutes

Words per minute

148.97

Word count

4,249

Sentence count

204

Harmful content

Misogyny

1

sentences flagged

Hate speech

4

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

JonBenet Ramsey was a 6-year-old girl who was found murdered in front of a house in Boulder, Colorado in 1996. Her parents, Jon and Patsy Ramsey, were charged with her murder, but no one has ever been charged for her death.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 It's November 1997, a makeshift television studio in Boulder, Colorado, dressed up as a courtroom, a bench, a witness stand, a jury box, and a studio audience.
00:00:12.640 But it is not a courthouse. It is a daytime talk show hosted by Geraldo Rivera.
00:00:18.220 And over several days, he puts the parents of a murdered six-year-old little girl on trial, live on national television.
00:00:26.280 No one has been arrested.
00:00:27.880 No one's been charged.
00:00:29.620 There is no real defense, no judge, no law.
00:00:33.440 The defendants, John and Patsy Ramsey, are not even in the room.
00:00:37.800 And at the end of it, Geraldo's jury returns a verdict.
00:00:41.680 We, the jury, find John Bennett Ramsey liable for the wrongful death of JonBenet Ramsey.
00:00:47.680 Am I asked to Patsy?
00:00:48.820 We, the jury, find Patsy Ramsey liable for the wrongful death of JonBenet Ramsey.
00:00:53.020 To the best of our knowledge, there is no real evidence in this case that points in any direction
00:00:59.020 other than straight into the faces of John and poor Patsy Ramsey.
00:01:05.700 Liable for the wrongful death of their own baby girl.
00:01:10.100 The verdict is not handed down by a court, but by a TV audience.
00:01:13.820 An audience made up of staff from Boulder TV stations, guests at the local hotel,
00:01:20.520 and other, quote, invite-only attendees.
00:01:24.240 This, in a case where no one has been charged with anything.
00:01:29.620 Geraldo and his squadron of producers,
00:01:32.340 with no due process to the family,
00:01:35.000 give us a final verdict.
00:01:37.140 This is where the JonBenet Ramsey case
00:01:39.380 is really being decided,
00:01:41.760 not in a court of law, but on TV,
00:01:44.760 in the so-called news,
00:01:46.980 in the court of public opinion.
00:01:48.240 And by the time this spectacle airs, that court has all but made up its mind.
00:01:54.480 The question is not how the Ramseys became suspects.
00:01:57.560 The question is how millions of people became dead certain they were guilty.
00:02:03.640 I'm Megyn Kelly, and this is MK Confidential. 0.55
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00:03:12.320 989898. This started out as a simple but tragic murder of a child beauty queen, but then questions
00:03:20.020 arose, curiosity arose, and suddenly the media descended on Boulder. We are told now that as
00:03:25.200 many as 300 media representatives may be here right now following this story. To understand
00:03:30.820 how it comes to a mock trial on daytime TV, we must look at the exact moment this story lands.
00:03:37.260 It is the dead stretch between Christmas and New Year's in 1996.
00:03:42.540 The news is quiet as a church mouse.
00:03:45.720 The cable channels are young and hungry, the 24-hour cycle still figuring out how to fill
00:03:51.120 a week when nothing is happening.
00:03:53.460 And into that massive silence drops a story that has everything.
00:03:58.560 Cops and kidnappers, a beautiful little girl, a bizarre ransom note, a black body bag wheeled
00:04:06.000 out in front of Christmas lights and to top it all off, millionaire parents who love child beauty
00:04:12.460 pageants. It is Christmas all over again for lovers of murder mystery, beach reads, and ratings.
00:04:20.440 JonBenet's murder arrives barely a year after the O.J. Simpson trial into an America that just spent
00:04:26.320 months litigating that murder from its couch and is ready to do it all over again. The shadow of O.J.
00:04:32.900 falls on the investigators too. Boulder PD detective Steve Thomas followed the OJ Simpson
00:04:38.560 trial and remembered how Simpson's attorneys ripped apart the LAPD's case by attacking their
00:04:44.400 work. He watched the Simpson case collapse under its own mistakes and feared the same thing might
00:04:50.780 happen in the Ramsey case. He wanted to be careful not to be the next office earned on live television.
00:04:58.380 Here is the strange part.
00:05:00.320 The Ramseys are not celebrities.
00:05:02.700 John runs a very successful company, but no one outside Boulder knows their names.
00:05:08.060 There is no famous face, no star power,
00:05:11.020 nothing that should turn one local homicide into a national obsession.
00:05:15.440 What there is instead is timing and a little girl who photographs like a movie star.
00:05:22.040 Most murdered children leave behind a snapshot or two.
00:05:26.880 This one left behind hours of tape, pageants, parades, recitals, home video, a short life spent performing for a camera.
00:05:35.940 John Bidet, over here!
00:05:37.860 So when the networks need pictures and videos to fill those empty holiday hours, the supply never runs out.
00:05:45.240 And the same few seconds of a small girl in pageant makeup run again and again and again.
00:05:52.740 That's 24 hours around the clock, coast to coast, we never close, open seven days a week.
00:05:59.860 On the 2nd of January, 1997, a Denver station airs pageant video of JonBenet, and the networks run it within the hour.
00:06:09.760 There she is at a pageant weeks before her death.
00:06:12.460 There she is in a spangled, showgirl-style costume, six years old, under stage lights, with her hair bleached and her lips painted.
00:06:25.700 To a country that has never heard of Boulder, these videos become JonBenet Ramsey.
00:06:33.260 Not a precious kindergartner who likes to jump into leaf piles, but an image of big hair, makeup, and that practiced little wave.
00:06:43.340 In the world the Ramseys came from, the Georgia pageant circuit, none of this is unusual. 0.71
00:06:48.780 In some parts of the South, dressing a daughter up and putting her on stage is just a Saturday. 0.83
00:06:54.880 Patsy had been Miss West Virginia herself, but to the rest of America, the sequins, the mascara, the hairspray,
00:07:03.260 come across as something eerie and disturbing major publications start describing john benet
00:07:10.380 as moving on stage in a way that's adult seductive precocious and wrong in the pageant world it is
00:07:19.900 just choreography that a coach taught a child no one bats an eye but on national news broadcasts
00:07:27.020 Stripped of that context, JonBenet's performances read as evidence of something far more sinister
00:07:33.360 inside that home. While the country stares at the pageant videos, the case is leaking.
00:07:40.720 Inside the Boulder PD, detectives are growing certain the family is the answer, and information
00:07:46.800 to that end keeps surfacing in the newspapers. A reporter at the Rocky Mountain News, Charlie
00:07:53.860 Brennan becomes a regular destination for material coming out of the investigation.
00:07:59.280 And some of the leaks are not accidental at all. Part of it is a police strategy to apply pressure
00:08:05.540 through the press in the hope that a guilty parent cornered in public will finally crack.
00:08:11.960 Sweat out, John and Patsy. But it doesn't start that way for the Ramseys. On New Year's Day,
00:08:18.180 1997 six days after their daughter is found dead and before they have sat for a single formal
00:08:25.060 police interview john and patsy go on cnn patsy's voice cracks there is a killer on the loose
00:08:34.340 i don't know who it is i don't know if it's a he or a she
00:08:39.220 But if I were a resident of Boulder, I would tell my friends to keep your babies close to you.
00:08:57.180 There's someone out there.
00:09:00.740 Keep your babies close.
00:09:03.660 From a grieving mother, it is a warning.
00:09:06.000 To a lot of the country, it sounds like something else.
00:09:08.320 A woman talking to the media before she talks to the police.
00:09:12.660 And the town does not want the warning either.
00:09:15.900 Two days after the Ramsey's first CNN interview, the mayor of Boulder steps up to a microphone.
00:09:22.300 People in Boulder have no need to fear that there is someone wandering the streets of Boulder,
00:09:28.920 has been portrayed by some people, particularly in talk radio, looking for young children to attack.
00:09:36.700 Boulder is safe. It's always been a safe community. It continues to be a safe community.
00:09:41.540 The city says, in effect, there is no stranger out there, which leaves the public only one place to look back inside that house.
00:09:51.760 A friend of Patsy's, a photographer named Judith Phillips, who had shot the family's portraits, goes to the mayor's office in person to ask for protection for the Ramseys.
00:10:02.060 She is told plainly there is no murderer out there.
00:10:06.220 Across town, a mother whose little girl heard Patsy's warning on television cannot get her
00:10:12.140 child to sleep in her own room for months. And around the Ramseys, something stranger is
00:10:18.100 happening. Their circle goes quiet. Friends start getting calls from inside that circle
00:10:25.080 with the same instruction, do not talk to reporters, do not talk to the police. Most
00:10:30.980 of them comply. The photographer who went to the mayor does not. Judith Phillips opens her door to
00:10:38.060 reporters, and she sits down with detectives twice. And for that, she is cut off, dropped by
00:10:45.120 the people she thought were family, told she has betrayed them. In every silence the family leaves,
00:10:51.900 the tabloids are happy to fill. The leaks are not always true, and the most damaging ones
00:10:58.300 are the simplest. In March of 1997, Charlie Brennan's paper runs a story sourced to police
00:11:05.380 saying there were no footprints in the snow around the Ramsey home the morning after John
00:11:10.920 Benet's murder. If no one left footprints, the reasoning goes, then no intruder came or went
00:11:17.000 and the family must have done it. It travels everywhere at light speed. It sounds airtight.
00:11:23.560 Here is what does not spread quickly with that story.
00:11:27.380 The sergeant who walked the property that freezing morning noted a light dusting of snow on the grass,
00:11:33.860 but the sidewalks on the driveway where a person would actually walk were dry, bare concrete.
00:11:40.800 There was nothing there to hold a footprint in the first place.
00:11:43.760 One source, one phrase, and a false fact that outlives the correction by decades.
00:11:51.080 Then there is the plane.
00:11:52.660 In the days after the family flies to their former home, Georgia, to bury their daughter, a story takes hold that John Ramsey, cold and composed, piloted his own plane to the funeral.
00:12:06.920 Here's how Paula Woodward, an investigative reporter out of Colorado, describes the shock of this story to Netflix.
00:12:13.520 I remember saying to my husband, what kind of person is he? How could he do this?
00:12:22.660 when he's got to be so distraught over the terrible way his daughter died and the fact
00:12:27.860 that she was murdered how could he fly his plane to atlanta the tricky part here a piece of it is
00:12:34.980 true john ramsey is a licensed pilot the family does own a small private plane a twin engine kept
00:12:41.940 at an airport outside boulder this is the plane they had planned to take on their second christmas
00:12:46.980 trip to michigan so the detail feels plausible but it's not true john ramsey did not fly to his
00:12:53.860 daughter's funeral he later said he was too shaken to even consider it his company lockheed martin
00:13:00.340 loaned the family a corporate jet and its own two pilots for the trip to georgia the story painted
00:13:06.580 an image of a father calmly flying himself across the country to bury his little girl but it never
00:13:13.140 happened. Years later, Brennan himself would look back on the story. When I reported that
00:13:20.260 John Ramsey had piloted his own plane back to Atlanta for the funeral, that was inaccurate.
00:13:26.160 It came from a source that I thoroughly trusted and had given me other solid information.
00:13:33.040 That information was wrong. My source was wrong in that case, and that was a mistake.
00:13:37.680 But the picture sticks, because it fits the story the public has already been sold.
00:13:45.180 And then the media seizes on the handwriting.
00:13:48.280 Report after report tells the country Patsy Ramsey wrote the ransom note,
00:13:53.700 that the experts have tied her hand to that page.
00:13:57.380 Sources say the ransom note written by the alleged kidnapper is considered a key piece of evidence.
00:14:03.140 Handwriting experts have ruled out John Ramsey and others close to the family.
00:14:07.680 They have not excluded Patsy Ramsey, who has submitted several samples.
00:14:12.680 The reality, however, is not quite so clean.
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00:15:17.400 insurance agency. The Colorado Bureau of Investigation hands the ransom note to its examiner,
00:15:24.480 Chet Eubowski, who studies it for the better part of a year and puts Patsy Ramsey through five
00:15:30.820 separate handwriting tests. And his finding is not the one the leaks describe. He can find no
00:15:37.620 evidence Patsy disguised her writing. He sees some shared letter formations and weighed against the
00:15:44.160 number and consistency of the differences. He writes that he is unable to identify Patsy Ramsey
00:15:50.480 as the author of that ransom note, quote, could not be ruled out, end quote, is as far as anyone
00:15:58.880 will responsibly go. But in the papers, magazines, and on TV, it becomes the handwriting matches.
00:16:08.120 One man does go further. A Vassar College professor named Donald Foster, who analyzes
00:16:14.520 text for a living publicly announces that Patsy is the author. What the audience never hears is
00:16:21.080 that the same professor had earlier written Patsy a private letter declaring her innocent or that he
00:16:27.000 had once used his methods to name an anonymous internet commenter as the killer, a person who
00:16:33.660 turned out to be a middle-aged housewife in North Carolina with zero connection to this case.
00:16:38.580 His credibility does not survive even mild scrutiny, yet the headline lives on.
00:16:45.480 Then the pageant footage and the rumors braid together into something uglier, that JonBenet
00:16:52.020 had been sexually abused and that the answer lay somewhere inside her own family.
00:16:58.040 Investigators lean into it.
00:17:00.020 Twice, police bring in a boulder-raised former Miss America, Marilyn Van Derber, a woman 0.62
00:17:07.580 who had spent years telling the world that a polished, admired, wealthy family can hide a
00:17:13.460 monstrous secret because hers had. Her own story is real and it is harrowing. You don't talk about
00:17:21.880 it in families. Siblings don't talk to siblings. No, Jean Benet had tape over her mouth. That is
00:17:28.680 the strongest message we have. You will never speak of it. Bringing Marilyn into the Ramsey
00:17:35.520 investigation is not evidence it is insinuation by resemblance and on the actual evidence that
00:17:42.880 insinuation collapses john benet's pediatrician and the doctors who reviewed her history
00:17:48.560 none of them find physical or historical proof that this child had been abused before the night
00:17:54.640 she died the damage from the abuse story is hard to measure it recasts a murdered six-year-old as
00:18:02.400 victim of her own family on the strength of costumes and speculation and that colors everything
00:18:08.160 the public sees the accusation runs at the top of the hour the correction when it comes at all
00:18:14.720 is a line buried at the bottom of a story no one reads to the end the ramses refuse to let
00:18:20.800 this story be told without them they fight back in public on camera through 1997 and the years
00:18:27.840 that follow they give interviews they sit for documentaries they hire a washington media
00:18:33.440 consultant to manage the press and in the spring of 1997 about four months after the murder john
00:18:40.320 and patsy finally sit for formal police interviews then they walk straight out to a bank of microphones
00:18:47.600 to announce that they've done so patsy looks into the cameras i'm appalled that anyone would think
00:18:56.960 that John or I would be involved in such a hideous heinous crime but let me assure
00:19:07.940 you that I did not kill John Benet I did not have anything to do with it I love
00:19:15.260 that child with my whole of my heart and soul but every public appearance becomes
00:19:24.020 a new piece of evidence in a trial no one declared america does not watch to be reassured it watches
00:19:30.580 to judge the tone the tears the pauses on cnn viewers freeze the moment a reporter asks whether
00:19:38.180 the ramsays are certain their daughter was taken by an outsider and patsy shakes her head no while
00:19:45.300 john says yes every frame is parsed every silence is read our family is a loving family
00:19:54.900 it's a gentle family a father insists unprompted that his family is gentle and analysts spend years
00:20:03.620 asking why he needed to say that at all this is what the media coverage runs on now not new
00:20:09.220 evidence but the same handful of clips replayed re-read until a shaken head a glance or an unlucky
00:20:16.820 phrase hardens into proof of guilt by november of 1997 a gallup poll finds 88 percent of americans
00:20:25.140 with an opinion about who killed john benet point to one or both of her parents this verdict is
00:20:31.220 built almost entirely on 11 months worth of leaked and distorted information not on anything a court
00:20:37.300 of law would ever admit. Which is how the country arrives that November at a talk show studio and
00:20:44.180 mock jury. Nearly 30 years later, the man who built that spectacle, Geraldo Rivera, would
00:20:50.780 apologize to John Ramsey in a conversation on News Nation. I deeply apologize to you for what
00:20:59.280 you and your family have suffered. When I say I am sorry, I don't apologize for my reporting. I
00:21:06.060 believe that at least half the reporters and half the nation believe that the shadow of suspicion,
00:21:14.540 half the Boulder Police Department, for those who have retired because of this case, believe it.
00:21:20.620 But I don't know what happened. I just want you to know that I lament contributing to the hurt
00:21:29.300 that you have endured. No one deserves to go through what you went through.
00:21:34.900 off-camera the investigation is breaking apart the boulder pd and the district attorney are
00:21:43.720 barely speaking and each side shapes the story its own way for reporters one of the officers
00:21:50.420 who worked the case former boulder pd officer gretchen smith later described the internal rot
00:21:56.960 to a cbs documentary team the john benet case destroyed morale completely really there was
00:22:04.200 no morale. The district attorney's office and some of the administration did not want to hear that
00:22:10.260 an affluent member of the community was guilty of a crime like this. They didn't want to hear that.
00:22:16.720 I don't think they wanted to solve this crime. And if they had to go down a different path that
00:22:21.320 might not have been the truth, I think they were willing to do that. Another friend of the Ramseys
00:22:26.240 breaks the silence in their social circle. Fleet White, one of the Ramseys' closest friends,
00:22:31.420 was beside John when the body was found.
00:22:35.140 Fleet would later describe how his family's life changed after the murder.
00:22:39.520 On Christmas Day 1996, John and Patsy Ramsey and their children,
00:22:44.980 Burke and JonBenet, were dinner guests at our home.
00:22:47.040 The next day, we were present at the Ramsey home.
00:22:50.200 When JonBenet's body was found, Priscilla and I and our children
00:22:53.040 instantly became witnesses in the Boulder Police investigation of JonBenet's death.
00:22:58.160 in august of 1998 fleet and his wife priscilla criticized the investigation in an open letter
00:23:05.600 to the people of colorado here's part of it quote after john benet ramsey was killed in boulder
00:23:12.400 nearly 20 months ago her parents immediately hired prominent criminal defense attorneys with
00:23:17.700 close professional political and personal ties to prosecutors the denver and boulder legal and
00:23:24.420 judicial communities, state legislators, and high-ranking members of the Colorado government,
00:23:29.740 including Governor Roy Romer. The investigation of her death has since been characterized by
00:23:34.420 confusion and delays. The district attorney and the Ramsey attorneys have simultaneously rebuked
00:23:40.900 the police for focusing their investigation on the Ramseys, when in fact police were simply
00:23:46.060 following evidence. During the course of the investigation, the district attorney has used
00:23:51.240 inexplicable methods, including the recruitment of magazine writers and tabloids to leak information
00:23:57.040 concerning the case and to needle witnesses, suspects, and police detectives. He has provided
00:24:03.340 evidence to Ramsey defense attorneys at their request, but denied reasonable requests by witnesses
00:24:08.680 for their own statements to police. He has thoroughly alienated police detectives and key
00:24:14.720 witnesses whose cooperation is vital to the investigation and prosecution. His public
00:24:20.280 statements regarding the investigation have been erratic, evasive, and misleading. We must be
00:24:26.220 mindful, however, of the first cause of the investigation's failure, the refusal of John
00:24:32.580 and Patsy Ramsey to cooperate fully and genuinely with those officially charged with the responsibility
00:24:38.320 of investigating the death of their daughter, John Benet, end quote. The people who knew the Ramseys
00:24:46.000 best are splitting up into camps on the record off the record and america gobbles up every word
00:24:54.000 of both week after week the supermarket racks turn john benet into a symbol and the ramses into
00:25:00.080 characters the cold father the ambitious mother the perfect family with something rotten underneath
00:25:06.400 rumor becomes packaging speculation becomes a headline and by the time anyone asks what has
00:25:12.240 actually been proven millions of people have already accepted the accusation as fact and here
00:25:18.960 is the piece of evidence that should have stopped all of this on john benet's body under her
00:25:25.440 fingernails and inside her underwear there is dna from an unknown man it's not john's it's not patsy's
00:25:33.680 not burke's it belongs to a stranger left physically on the murdered child the colorado
00:25:41.280 Bureau of Investigation confirms it in a lab report within about three weeks of the killing
00:25:46.260 in January 1997, the single strongest piece of evidence pointing away from the Ramsey family.
00:25:53.220 There is no press conference for this revelation, no leaks about the unidentified male DNA.
00:25:59.620 Boulder police sit on the finding. Roughly six months go by before the district attorney's
00:26:04.200 office is even told what the lab found. The public waits far longer.
00:26:10.340 The fact that could have broken the case was filed in a drawer until 2003,
00:26:16.400 when the DNA is uncovered and given to the FBI for testing.
00:26:20.720 It does not match anyone in the FBI's criminal database, and to this day remains a mystery.
00:26:28.060 In 2016, nearly 20 years after the murder,
00:26:31.020 the media machine turns on John and Patsy's surviving child, Burke.
00:26:36.960 Burke was nine years old when his sister was killed,
00:26:39.620 The Ramseys say he was asleep the entire night just down the hall.
00:26:44.100 CBS airs a primetime special built around the theory that Burke killed his sister with paid experts and a staged reenactment.
00:26:52.660 Burke Ramsey sues the network.
00:26:55.020 Well, the Boulder Daily Camera reports the brother of JonBenet Ramsey has reached a settlement with CBS.
00:27:01.160 Burke Ramsey sued CBS after a television series the network aired suggested he killed his six-year-old sister in Boulder.
00:27:09.620 No court ever finds that Burke did anything.
00:27:13.100 The detectives and the prosecutors
00:27:14.460 who actually worked this case never charged Burke,
00:27:17.300 but the theory is now in prime time, 20 years later.
00:27:21.480 In this story, no one's ever really cleared.
00:27:24.640 They're only re-accused on a later night for a new audience.
00:27:28.860 This is the cost of a trial by television,
00:27:31.300 by the news media, the footprints that were never there,
00:27:35.800 the plane he never flew, the handwriting that never matched,
00:27:38.600 alleged history of abuse that was never proven each one is corrected quietly if at all and long
00:27:46.120 after the smear has done its dirty work underneath the entire narrative lies the dna of a man no one
00:27:53.080 can name that dna sits in a drawer because it does not fit the story the country has already chosen
00:27:59.000 to believe the one it's been led to before a single charge is ever filed in the only court
00:28:05.560 that seems to matter, the Ramseys, have long ago been found guilty. 0.73
00:28:10.880 But while the whole country is staring inside that house,
00:28:14.560 one veteran detective is about to walk into this case
00:28:18.360 all but certain the parents did it
00:28:20.520 and walk out believing the exact opposite.
00:28:24.480 Tomorrow, we'll hear his side of the story
00:28:26.900 and the compelling picture he paints on MK Confidential.