The Megyn Kelly Show - The Mafia Code, Turning on the Mob, and Life After Prison, with ＂Sammy the Bull＂ Gravano ｜ Ep. 352

00:00:00.000 Now streaming on Paramount Plus.

00:00:02.860 Someone is trying to frame us.

00:00:05.140 Until our names are cleared.

00:00:07.700 We're fugitives from interval.

00:00:09.480 Like Bonnie and Clyde with better snacks.

00:00:12.880 Espionage?

00:00:13.560 You still as good a shot as you used to be?

00:00:16.600 Better.

00:00:17.400 Is there love language?

00:00:18.860 We like to walk that fine line between techno thriller

00:00:21.340 and romantic comedy.

00:00:24.180 We make up our own rules.

00:00:25.940 NCIS Tony and Ziva.

00:00:27.400 Now streaming on Paramount Plus.

00:00:30.000 When I found out my friend got a great deal

00:00:32.300 on a wool coat from Winners,

00:00:33.920 I started wondering,

00:00:35.580 is every fabulous item I see from Winners?

00:00:38.500 Like that woman over there with the designer jeans. 1.00

00:00:41.400 Are those from Winners?

00:00:42.920 Ooh, or those beautiful gold earrings?

00:00:45.380 Did she pay full price?

00:00:46.740 Or that leather tote?

00:00:47.740 Or that cashmere sweater?

00:00:48.940 Or those knee-high boots?

00:00:50.380 That dress?

00:00:51.220 That jacket?

00:00:51.880 Those shoes?

00:00:52.900 Is anyone paying full price for anything?

00:00:55.400 Stop wondering.

00:00:57.160 Start winning.

00:00:57.720 Winners find fabulous for less.

00:01:01.100 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:01:02.660 Your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:01:11.640 Hey everyone.

00:01:12.900 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:01:14.460 I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:01:15.900 We have a fascinating program for you today.

00:01:18.860 One filled with crime, murder, money, and betrayal.

00:01:22.100 Today we're talking to one of the most infamous mobsters in American history,

00:01:27.020 Salvatore Gravano, otherwise known as Sammy the Bull.

00:01:31.380 To understand his story, we have to take a step back in time to the early 1970s when

00:01:36.740 The Godfather hit the big screen and changed the perception of the mafia in America.

00:01:42.600 Do you spend time with your family?

00:01:45.000 Sure I do.

00:01:46.440 Good.

00:01:48.000 Because a man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man.

00:01:52.580 You look terrible.

00:01:54.500 I want you to eat.

00:01:56.320 I want you to rest well, and a month from now, this Hollywood big shot's going to give

00:02:00.460 you what you want.

00:02:01.560 It's too late.

00:02:02.300 They start shooting in a week.

00:02:04.960 I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse.

00:02:06.880 At about that same time, Gravano, a kid who grew up without mob connections in his family,

00:02:15.000 slowly eased into La Cosa Nostra and made his first kill.

00:02:20.940 Over the course of the next two decades, Sammy the Bull would rise up the ranks of New York's

00:02:25.080 notorious Gambino crime family, raking in millions upon millions of dollars and repeatedly

00:02:31.240 killing.

00:02:32.440 He has admitted to 19 murders in all, including his own brother-in-law, his best friend, and

00:02:39.400 the Gambino family mob boss, Paul Castellano, in 1985.

00:02:44.220 Deadly messages from organized crime to organized crime and the rest of society.

00:02:48.720 The murder of Gambino crime family boss, Paul Castellano, yesterday, or the 1979 assassination

00:02:54.480 of Cosa Nostradon, Carmine Galenti, unsolved very public executions by an underworld that

00:03:00.600 plays by their own rules and their own code of justice.

00:03:04.400 The Castellano murder, particularly brazen and defiant, since Castellano was gunned down

00:03:09.120 a day before, he was to resume standing trial for auto theft and murder.

00:03:13.620 Organized crime had served up its own sentence.

00:03:16.380 By the late 1980s, the new Don, John Gotti, had named Sammy the Bull his right-hand man.

00:03:25.060 Gotti himself was a ruthless mobster and media darling who dressed in expensive suits and

00:03:30.920 enjoyed the finer things in life, earning him the nickname, the Dapper Don.

00:03:35.900 He also repeatedly escaped conviction with, as it would turn out, Sammy's help, which we'll

00:03:41.920 get to, earning him another nickname, the Teflon Don.

00:03:46.240 Remember how they used that about Donald Trump?

00:03:48.040 Well, it was first about John Gotti.

00:03:50.880 But in 1991, everything changed.

00:03:53.740 John Gotti and Sammy the Bull were behind bars, facing a slew of charges when Sammy decided

00:03:59.280 to flip and do the unthinkable, cooperate with the feds.

00:04:03.800 At the time, he was the highest-ranking gangster to break his blood oath, earning him the ire 0.78

00:04:10.920 of mob aficionados who dubbed him a rat.

00:04:16.100 Not since Joe Valachi in the 60s has such a high-ranking member of the mob turned traitor.

00:04:20.960 Sammy the Bull Gravano now joins the ranks of those who have broken the cardinal rule of

00:04:24.660 the mafia, Omerta, the code of silence.

00:04:28.900 Sammy's testimony helped send John Gotti away for good.

00:04:33.220 The Teflon is gone, the Don is covered with Velcro, and every charge in the indictment

00:04:39.280 stuck.

00:04:40.500 And resulted in dozens of other mobsters going to prison as well.

00:04:43.940 One top FBI agent says that testimony by Sammy led to the demise of organized crime in New York.

00:04:51.660 Since then, there have been numerous books and movies made about the Gambino crime family,

00:04:55.620 and while some may still consider Sammy a, quote, rat, hundreds of thousands of people

00:05:00.580 are curious fans of his.

00:05:03.220 Subscribing to his podcast launched right around the time our own did, called Our Thing,

00:05:11.100 which is what Cosa Nostra means.

00:05:13.620 In fact, his YouTube channel alone has more than 77 million views.

00:05:33.220 Espionage?

00:05:34.300 You're still as good a shot as you used to be.

00:05:37.460 Better.

00:05:38.120 Is there love language?

00:05:39.600 We like to walk that fine line between techno-thriller and romantic comedy.

00:05:44.900 We make up our own rules.

00:05:46.720 NCIS Tony and Ziva, now streaming on Paramount+.

00:05:50.220 Sammy the Bull Gravano, welcome to the show.

00:05:55.320 Thank you for being here.

00:05:56.460 Thank you.

00:05:56.860 It's a pleasure.

00:05:57.880 So let me start with this.

00:05:59.220 After that background, how are you still upright?

00:06:03.240 Right?

00:06:03.520 Like, how are you still walking around on two feet?

00:06:07.140 Well, the mafia changed quite a bit.

00:06:09.100 It doesn't do certain things.

00:06:12.340 And people understand the story, what happened.

00:06:16.480 That word rat, I mean, they use that.

00:06:18.920 They do that all the time.

00:06:22.440 But in my case, I was offered that position to cooperate a bunch of times.

00:06:30.320 I was arrested all my life.

00:06:32.540 I never cooperated.

00:06:34.060 I was facing life in a number of different cases.

00:06:38.340 But when it came to John Gotti, I was arrested in 1991 with him.

00:06:44.380 And after 11 months, the worst 11 months I've ever done in prison, I've been in prison 22

00:06:51.540 years of my life.

00:06:53.660 But he wanted me to take the weight so he can go free.

00:06:59.160 He was going to back up the tapes that the government had. 0.63

00:07:03.680 And most of those tapes were all lies about me killing union people and taking over or killing 0.85

00:07:10.360 my partners and taking over. 0.75

00:07:12.560 None of that was true.

00:07:14.380 But he thought that he would have the lawyers back up those tapes and turn around in a way

00:07:24.120 to say, well, you hear John complaining about him.

00:07:28.940 He would be set free and I would go to prison. 0.98

00:07:31.460 He had the balls to actually tell me this to my face. 0.98

00:07:34.720 And that's when I walked away from him, the mafia. 0.99

00:07:38.440 And whatever would happen would happen.

00:07:40.940 I wasn't afraid of it.

00:07:42.280 Now, well, and let me just jump in because we'll get to that in detail in just a bit.

00:07:48.220 But and I and what you're basically saying is that you you felt he was going to sell you

00:07:53.360 out up the river and you sold him up the river first.

00:07:56.500 But is that why you don't think anybody has tried to seek retribution?

00:08:01.880 I mean, I understand there's been at least one attempt on your life since your testimony

00:08:06.920 against him, allegedly by a family member of John Gotti's.

00:08:12.300 But is that it?

00:08:13.400 Because you did witness protection.

00:08:15.140 You did all that.

00:08:16.100 I can't imagine nobody else has tried to come get you.

00:08:19.860 Well, there was a team that came down when John Gotti was away.

00:08:25.980 Peter Gotti, his brother, became the boss. 0.91

00:08:28.540 He said he put together a team to come down and kill me. 0.80

00:08:32.440 They found me. 0.83

00:08:34.080 They were afraid to even come near me.

00:08:36.800 And they were.

00:08:37.600 They devised all kinds of plans, a bomb, then this thing that spins around and shoots shotgun

00:08:45.660 shells.

00:08:46.640 And that didn't work.

00:08:49.060 Nothing worked.

00:08:50.620 And I got arrested again in.

00:08:55.120 In 2000, February of 2000.

00:09:00.580 And it didn't get done.

00:09:03.340 When I got arrested, I had in my apartment, I had five guns, four guns planted in different

00:09:11.520 places, in my kitchen, in my bathroom, my living room.

00:09:16.060 I expected them to come down.

00:09:18.800 And I had one on me all the time.

00:09:21.500 I was actually waiting for it to happen.

00:09:25.860 And they worked with me.

00:09:28.080 These were people.

00:09:28.880 Some people were my crew.

00:09:30.640 One of them was my brother-in-law, Eddie Garofola.

00:09:33.340 Um, and, uh, they knew me and they knew I wouldn't run from it. 0.99

00:09:42.080 And, uh, they were cowards. 0.58

00:09:47.120 They didn't make the move. 0.99

00:09:48.520 They were afraid to make the move.

00:09:50.160 And I got, once I went in prison again, uh, that part of it was over.

00:09:55.760 So there was an attempt.

00:09:57.780 Um, excuse me, they found me, but it didn't work out for them.

00:10:07.100 It worked out for me.

00:10:08.460 As I said, you're doing a podcast now and so on.

00:10:11.840 Are you at all in hiding?

00:10:14.160 I mean, is it something that do you need to keep your whereabouts unknown?

00:10:18.260 No, I think the whole country knows where I am.

00:10:22.500 I'm not in hiding.

00:10:23.880 Listen, I went into the witness protection program.

00:10:27.180 Uh, I didn't want to go into the program.

00:10:29.340 I had money.

00:10:30.000 I didn't want to go in.

00:10:30.860 The, I did only five years on my first hit, uh, my first pinch.

00:10:37.200 And, uh, the government begged me to go in that they would look terrible if I refused

00:10:43.360 and didn't go in.

00:10:45.220 And, uh, we had meetings and they said, you know, you got a great sentence.

00:10:50.140 Give us something, come into the program.

00:10:52.420 I agreed to go into the program for a year.

00:10:57.200 I did eight months in the program.

00:11:00.220 Uh, something came up, a woman recognized me and, uh, they wanted me to start over again.

00:11:05.180 I said, no, I'm not starting over again.

00:11:06.880 I promised a year.

00:11:08.000 I'll give you a year.

00:11:08.940 There's four more months.

00:11:10.260 It didn't.

00:11:11.800 They wanted to start over and I quit and walked away.

00:11:15.600 I went to Phoenix where my family was and I stayed there for about another four and a

00:11:20.100 half years before I got busted again.

00:11:22.420 Um, since I got out, I got out in 2017.

00:11:28.780 Uh, this all started by wife.

00:11:31.060 My daughter did a book.

00:11:32.280 I did a book when I got out in 96.

00:11:35.340 Yeah.

00:11:35.920 Um, and she wanted to do a book.

00:11:39.000 We couldn't sell the book.

00:11:41.140 Uh, and then somebody came to her about a podcast and she said, would you work for me?

00:11:47.980 And of course we're divorced and give me the right to use you to do a podcast.

00:11:55.020 And I said, of course I'll help you.

00:11:56.620 Um, and I start, that's how I started, uh, a year after that, or maybe a little bit more

00:12:03.380 than a year, two years after that, uh, my son put me on, uh, Facebook, uh, a little while

00:12:10.060 after that he put me on, uh, YouTube, unbeknownst to me, I didn't even know it, my phone, I was

00:12:17.920 getting all kinds of calls and my son left one day and said, dad, put you on Facebook.

00:12:23.100 I put you on YouTube and that's what the calls were about.

00:12:26.500 So I just stayed on that.

00:12:29.440 And I continued the podcast on that.

00:12:32.540 And it grew to big numbers.

00:12:35.040 I'm almost at a half a million, uh, subscribers and I got 77, 78 million, uh, views.

00:12:43.700 And now I'm doing a whole bunch of other things.

00:12:46.880 And a lot of, um, I was reading and preparing for this.

00:12:49.580 A lot of men and women in law enforcement, in particular FBI agents, watch and listen

00:12:56.300 to the podcast and the, and the YouTube show because they, they say it's fascinating.

00:13:00.980 They've never been able to get this sort of an insight into a real life mobsters thinking.

00:13:07.320 And you talk openly about the crimes that were committed by yourself, by others.

00:13:11.220 A lot of these guys who were covering you or on you back then are listening, thinking,

00:13:14.860 oh my God, this is helping me put things together.

00:13:17.420 So it's just the whole, all around you, obviously you have immunity now for those crimes, given

00:13:22.160 the deal you struck with the government, but it's a fascinating thing to think about the

00:13:26.120 FBI agents who once tracked you and, and guys you worked with now listening to you and

00:13:31.840 are fans of the show.

00:13:33.040 I mean, actually fans of the show.

00:13:34.640 So wait, let me, let me pause you there and let's go back.

00:13:37.060 Let's start with you as a kid, because as I mentioned in the intro, you were not raised

00:13:42.280 in a family where your dad was in the mob and your granddad was in the mob.

00:13:47.020 This was not foretold.

00:13:48.820 As I understand it, your dad was fairly successful.

00:13:51.680 You had a nice family and it wasn't, you had some difficulties as a child, but it wasn't related

00:13:57.780 to anything in terms of crime or the mob.

00:14:00.500 No, my mother and father were totally legitimate.

00:14:05.060 My mother was a seamstress.

00:14:07.160 My father was a painter.

00:14:08.880 He got, back then they used to use lead in paint, got lead poisoning, had to stay away

00:14:13.500 from painting.

00:14:14.660 My mother got an offer from a Jewish contractor.

00:14:18.220 She would go and make the clothes, women's clothes. 1.00

00:14:20.860 And the guy told her, Katie, you're great.

00:14:26.080 Open up a little factory and I'll get you work. 1.00

00:14:29.420 If you could produce, you know, the quality of work that you do, we'll give you our work.

00:14:37.860 And that's exactly what she did.

00:14:40.380 My father jumped in with her to help her and they worked together.

00:14:44.820 They had a dress factory and that's what they did. 1.00

00:14:48.140 I had two sisters, neither one of them had anything to do with the mafia, boyfriends

00:14:55.520 or anything.

00:14:56.180 One of my brother-in-laws was an engineer.

00:14:59.460 The other brother-in-law was a plumbing contractor.

00:15:03.320 Later on, he came in the mafia with me and he became a made member.

00:15:07.400 But before that, before I was in the mafia, I had no relation to the mafia whatsoever.

00:15:13.600 But in Bensonhurst, Brooklyn, it was saturated with the mafia.

00:15:18.520 So it was on every street corner.

00:15:20.300 It was around.

00:15:21.800 As a kid growing up, I was dyslexic.

00:15:24.520 I didn't do good in school.

00:15:26.200 I got left back in the fourth grade, the seventh grade.

00:15:29.060 I had nothing but problems in school.

00:15:32.500 I got thrown out.

00:15:33.940 I never got past the eighth grade.

00:15:36.520 And I was in a gang.

00:15:38.480 And we stayed away from the mafia.

00:15:40.360 We knew who they were.

00:15:41.160 We knew they were dangerous, so we stayed away from them.

00:15:45.200 It was us against the world.

00:15:47.560 And we didn't want nothing to do with the mafia.

00:15:51.680 And at 19 years old, I got drafted.

00:15:54.380 And I went into the military during the Vietnam War.

00:15:57.980 I spent two years there.

00:16:00.780 And when you were drafted, you got two years.

00:16:04.600 If you joined, you had to do three.

00:16:06.320 I did, too.

00:16:07.860 I came out and went right back into a gang.

00:16:12.120 Can I just ask you that?

00:16:13.400 Why?

00:16:13.700 Why?

00:16:14.020 Because I would think, I would like to think, that a couple years in the Army would instill

00:16:19.120 a moral code in you that would give you some pause about going back into a life of crime.

00:16:24.500 Well, it wasn't into a life of crime.

00:16:28.220 It was back into being in the gang.

00:16:30.500 I mean, that's what I knew.

00:16:31.920 The only thing I knew, I was taught how to kill and how to do things in the military. 0.96

00:16:37.160 And I would have killed people to protect the country. 1.00

00:16:41.280 They gave us that bullshit that communism was coming here. 1.00

00:16:44.680 They're going to rape your mother, your sisters. 1.00

00:16:46.160 And so I was brainwashed a little bit by the government. 1.00

00:16:50.100 I mean, I never met a bad Vietnamese person.

00:16:54.420 The only people I know who are Vietnamese do my nails or my toenails. 0.98

00:16:58.840 And they just seem to be nice people.

00:17:01.020 I've never met Vietnamese people in prison. 0.95

00:17:03.840 So maybe they're good crooks. 1.00

00:17:05.780 So I think the whole thing was bullshit. 1.00

00:17:08.440 So I went right back into a gang. 0.98

00:17:14.660 But unbeknownst to me, while the two years I was gone, most of my friends hooked up with

00:17:19.460 different mafia families, and they were hooked up with somebody.

00:17:23.360 One of my friends, Tommy Spiro, said, my uncle wants to talk to you.

00:17:27.320 His name was Shorty Spiro.

00:17:29.200 He was in a notorious crew, Carmine Persico.

00:17:34.220 There was a war going on at that time between the Gallows and the Profaci, and there was

00:17:42.720 different sides.

00:17:44.380 The war stopped for a while.

00:17:47.920 So when I got hooked up with them, there was no war going on.

00:17:51.940 I knew sooner or later they killed people that I would be called.

00:17:56.500 That's where I did my first murder.

00:17:59.780 It's a long story.

00:18:01.940 I would tell you if you want to hear it.

00:18:03.700 But I did my first piece of work there.

00:18:07.340 And then Shorty, after that, had told me, Sammy, go get your clothes.

00:18:13.540 Joe Gallo came out of prison.

00:18:17.920 He said, go get your clothes.

00:18:19.380 We're going to hit the mattresses.

00:18:20.680 I didn't even know what that meant back then.

00:18:22.520 It wasn't a million movies.

00:18:24.560 And he said, they're a pack of wolves.

00:18:28.740 We're a pack of wolves.

00:18:30.260 We're going to live together. 1.00

00:18:31.500 If you have a girlfriend, get rid of her.

00:18:34.000 If you've got a job, stop. 0.90

00:18:35.960 You're going to live with us 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

00:18:39.660 And we're going to hunt them. 0.70

00:18:41.660 They're going to hunt us.

00:18:43.120 And that's what you have to do from this point on.

00:18:46.120 And that's the beginnings of your time in organized crime.

00:18:49.980 That wasn't just the gang.

00:18:51.540 That was one of the five New York crime families.

00:18:54.580 Yes.

00:18:55.140 It became the Colombo.

00:18:56.720 It was a Profaci family.

00:18:59.020 Profaci died.

00:19:01.120 And they made Joe Colombo the boss.

00:19:04.400 So when I got in, Joe Colombo was the boss.

00:19:06.920 My first hit was ordered from Joe Colombo to Carmine Persico to Shorty to me.

00:19:13.480 And it was somebody in our crew who was plotting to kill Shorty and me.

00:19:19.320 And his wife was having an affair with Shorty's nephew.

00:19:26.360 And he devised a plot to kill Shorty and me to cause confusion.

00:19:32.940 A couple of months later, six months later, he would kill Tommy Spiro.

00:19:38.560 And he went to somebody, Frankie, who was in the crew and asked for his help.

00:19:42.320 Frankie, instead of helping him, went to Shorty and told him about the plot.

00:19:48.340 That's how the whole thing happened.

00:19:50.260 Now, just to take a step back, you mentioned you had dyslexia as a kid and you didn't make

00:19:54.940 it past the eighth grade.

00:19:56.320 And I know that there were some bullies in your life as well.

00:19:59.240 And one of those incidents led to your nickname, Sammy the Bull.

00:20:03.000 They tried to steal your bike.

00:20:04.620 You didn't go let it go peacefully.

00:20:07.140 You were scrappy.

00:20:08.660 And these mobsters saw you fighting and said, look at this kid.

00:20:11.860 And they nicknamed you Sammy the Bull.

00:20:14.460 Now, jumping forward now to this point, you may have stood up to bullies, but you

00:20:20.120 you didn't go to Vietnam when you were serving in 1964.

00:20:23.960 So you hadn't killed anybody, whether in a military uniform or otherwise at this point.

00:20:29.920 So when they say to you, you're going to kill this guy, is it you know, is it is it scary?

00:20:36.100 Is it frightening?

00:20:36.700 Is it daunting or is it all business at that point, even as a young man at this point?

00:20:41.860 Well, it was scary.

00:20:45.300 I had a couple of incidents that were scary that I was going to would have used the gun.

00:20:49.740 I never did.

00:20:51.540 But when that came, I knew it would come sooner or later.

00:20:55.800 So the story, I heard the story, what it was.

00:21:03.360 I thought I was being bullshitted a little bit, you know, that the guy wanted to kill me.

00:21:08.160 I couldn't understand why he wanted to kill me.

00:21:10.740 I had nothing to do with his wife and an affair. 1.00

00:21:13.240 But he had this stupid little plot, like I just said. 0.99

00:21:17.760 And when they gave me the order, they said, who do you want to come with you? 1.00

00:21:23.080 And I said, your nephew, Tommy Spiro.

00:21:26.720 He created this monster.

00:21:28.400 And then I wanted the guy, Frankie, because I couldn't understand why he didn't tell me.

00:21:33.420 And I wanted to be able to talk to him about that.

00:21:35.840 So they put those two people on the hip with me.

00:21:39.660 And, you know, I watched a movie one time and it's a person who was about to kill and he was sweating and scared and all of this stuff.

00:21:51.680 I thought that's what happens to you before you commit this kind of a crime, because I never thought about killing people.

00:22:00.220 But I went through with it.

00:22:03.300 We did it one night.

00:22:05.800 We went out to half the hour clubs.

00:22:09.060 We got in the car about four o'clock in the morning. 0.88

00:22:12.040 And as we drove away, I shot him in the back of the head twice.

00:22:17.060 You were in the back of the car. 0.97

00:22:18.580 I was in the back seat.

00:22:20.380 Where was he?

00:22:22.320 He was in the front seat, the passenger seat.

00:22:25.980 And when we went to a spot, we went out of the neighborhood.

00:22:30.940 We pulled into like a nice community.

00:22:35.140 It was miles away from Brooklyn, Rockaway.

00:22:40.500 And they had nice homes with lawns and quiet.

00:22:44.020 We drove over there.

00:22:46.380 I took him.

00:22:47.380 I picked him up out of the car.

00:22:48.640 And I put him on the street, the sidewalk.

00:22:54.780 I got in the car.

00:22:57.960 I opened the window.

00:22:59.080 I put the gun out. 0.98

00:23:00.440 And I shot him three more times. 0.97

00:23:02.540 We got back. 0.86

00:23:03.600 We went to the neighborhood.

00:23:05.640 We cleaned the car.

00:23:07.140 Got rid of the gun.

00:23:09.140 And we were living together, a bunch of guys.

00:23:13.920 I went to take a shower.

00:23:15.300 I stayed in the shower quite a long time.

00:23:18.180 The water running on me.

00:23:19.680 And I was waiting for this thing to happen, being nervous and sweating.

00:23:24.760 And it didn't happen.

00:23:26.680 Nothing happened.

00:23:29.440 And I went to bed.

00:23:31.880 I slept like a baby.

00:23:33.380 I got up the next morning.

00:23:34.860 There was confusion.

00:23:35.940 Some of the young girls who stood with us.

00:23:37.820 Oh, my God.

00:23:38.420 They killed Joe Colucci and Rockaway.

00:23:40.620 And I remember asking one of the girls, did they know who did it?

00:23:44.760 Did they find out who did it?

00:23:46.820 She said, no, it wasn't.

00:23:48.100 It's in the papers already, but it's not in the papers.

00:23:50.500 I don't know if they caught the people or what.

00:23:53.680 And I remember we all went to the corner where we stay.

00:23:58.440 And I had like an out-of-body experience that I felt like I was above somewhere,

00:24:08.960 looking down and listening to all of them talking.

00:24:12.560 And I felt absolutely nothing.

00:24:15.420 And then Shorty came with his nephew, Tommy Sparrow, and I came back to reality.

00:24:27.320 And they said, Carmine Persico wants to talk to you.

00:24:31.740 So we got in the car and we went down there.

00:24:35.420 But I didn't feel...

00:24:36.420 That was the then boss?

00:24:39.260 Excuse me?

00:24:40.640 Carmine Persico at that point was that family's boss?

00:24:43.700 No, he was a captain, but a very, very powerful captain.

00:24:48.280 He was leading the war against the gallows.

00:24:52.840 And so I went down and met with him.

00:24:56.420 I was told not to talk.

00:24:58.060 I didn't talk.

00:24:59.080 Tommy Sparrow explained the whole situation, what happened in detail.

00:25:04.260 He grabbed me, hugged me, kissed me on the cheek, and he told me, great job.

00:25:09.880 So, and I didn't feel anything.

00:25:12.840 I went to the funeral.

00:25:15.340 And I didn't feel any remorse.

00:25:18.280 I didn't feel anything.

00:25:19.800 And I thought that was peculiar.

00:25:22.660 I thought either something's wrong with me or I'm just a stone cold killer.

00:25:29.100 And I'm going to fit in the mafia perfectly.

00:25:31.120 And I guess I, what I, what I became, not a stone cold killer.

00:25:37.460 I was good at what I did.

00:25:39.080 I was good at what I did in a lot of ways in construction, running unions, but I was also

00:25:45.400 becoming a professional head guy.

00:25:48.320 Had you ever been a man of faith prior to that?

00:25:53.260 Had you ever gone to church?

00:25:54.580 Did you have any relationship with God?

00:25:57.600 No, of course.

00:25:58.760 I still, I believe in God.

00:26:00.600 I, I, I don't, I went to church as a kid.

00:26:04.360 I stopped going to church.

00:26:06.720 I believe, you know, in prison, I joined the Indians because I wanted to smoke and, and 1.00

00:26:14.280 you have to join their religion.

00:26:16.400 And they allow that in prison, in the federal prisons.

00:26:20.340 So I joined them.

00:26:21.800 I went in to get tobacco that you weren't allowed to smoke from 2004.

00:26:26.960 I went in really wanting to smoke and steal some tobacco and bring it to myself.

00:26:33.900 But I got to understand their religion, the way they believe in God.

00:26:38.180 I also, at one point, a friend of mine grabbed me and said, Sammy, you're not an Indian.

00:26:43.920 We, we do Wicca.

00:26:46.340 Why don't you join our group?

00:26:48.600 And I did.

00:26:49.380 I joined their group as well.

00:26:51.880 So I started to understand different religions and everybody seems to believe in God.

00:26:58.680 They're just a path.

00:27:00.300 What path do you want to take to get to God?

00:27:02.620 Indians have it. 0.97

00:27:03.640 Wicca has it. 0.65

00:27:04.660 Muslims have it.

00:27:05.540 Jews have it. 0.60

00:27:07.260 Catholics have it. 0.90

00:27:08.040 Christians have it. 0.97

00:27:09.440 It's just a path.

00:27:11.400 And I believe most of them-

00:27:12.400 Was there a moment back then, you know, when, when you're, you're talking about being in

00:27:16.000 the shower and no remorse.

00:27:17.280 I wonder whether there was any moment of, no matter what I feel, I recognize I've crossed

00:27:23.680 over.

00:27:24.240 I've done something.

00:27:25.540 I've, I've sinned in the most profound way possible.

00:27:29.160 And at some point there will be a price to pay.

00:27:32.320 No, no, I don't look at it that way.

00:27:35.260 I never felt that way.

00:27:36.620 I still don't think that way.

00:27:37.940 I think that God makes people, creates people, and he creates lions and he creates lambs.

00:27:47.600 I think I'm a lion.

00:27:50.140 And whatever you have to pay, if you have to pay anything, why would he create a lion?

00:27:56.920 If there was a God and he was interested in what was going on, why do little kids get

00:28:03.420 cancer and die?

00:28:04.440 Why do little kids get raped? 1.00

00:28:06.300 Why do so many things happen?

00:28:08.800 And talking about religions, I mean, I was a Catholic, brought up that way, baptized, communion,

00:28:15.720 confirmation.

00:28:16.300 Until I found out what priests do.

00:28:20.700 And I had no intention of committing or my crimes to talk to him.

00:28:27.100 I was asked that once by a priest.

00:28:29.340 Then I told him, yeah, you want me to tell you my, what I do?

00:28:33.560 Tell me what you do.

00:28:35.820 And then I'll talk to you about what I do.

00:28:38.300 So I don't believe in religion. 0.99

00:28:42.980 I believe in God, but I think religion is bullshit. 1.00

00:28:46.300 I think it's the, it's all about money. 1.00

00:28:49.640 It's all about different things.

00:28:52.360 They commit evil things to good people.

00:28:56.080 So I, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm away from religions. 1.00

00:28:59.380 I respected the Indian religion, the Wicca religion.

00:29:02.860 It's stunning.

00:29:04.140 It's the only religion that they put a woman above God. 1.00

00:29:09.820 The goddess of the moon, the water, and the earth.

00:29:13.200 God is the God of the forest and the mountains.

00:29:16.300 Why do they put, I asked, a woman above God? 1.00

00:29:21.260 Because she creates life. 1.00

00:29:25.180 She needs a man's seed, but she in her womb takes care of life and then gives birth and 1.00

00:29:34.240 creates life.

00:29:35.540 I understand that.

00:29:36.840 I'm somebody with common sense.

00:29:39.000 If you make sense to me in a certain way, I understand it.

00:29:43.200 So I understood that religion.

00:29:45.380 Now, a lot of people will not be happy with me saying this, but they, of course, it's a,

00:29:51.660 it's a, they call it a pagan religion.

00:29:53.620 They call it all kinds of things.

00:29:54.980 It was before the Christianity even. 0.90

00:29:57.340 And, uh, I understand that part about a woman giving birth and creating life.

00:30:05.120 Well, I mean, I've, I've, I've read that unlike some, I, uh, in the mob, you, you were very,

00:30:13.780 you were a family man in the midst of all this.

00:30:16.240 You went home and had dinner with your wife and your two kids each night.

00:30:20.700 Your daughter, Karen has talked about that publicly many times.

00:30:24.840 And so there has been this respect for your family members, for your wife, for your daughter

00:30:29.700 in a way that even the people who were in the mob said, you know, for example, John Gotti

00:30:34.280 would go out carousing with other women after hours and you would go home to your family.

00:30:38.460 That piece of that piece of your commitment of your life, you know, you honored, um, despite

00:30:44.960 what was happening on the other front.

00:30:46.320 And I know that you, you don't see these as, as real, as murders, you know, in the same

00:30:51.700 way, a soldier doesn't commit a murder when he kills somebody.

00:30:54.080 This is how an FBI agent explained it in one public interview that, that a soldier would

00:30:58.140 not be murdering.

00:30:59.520 You don't see your kills as murders because there was a code behind them because you say

00:31:04.880 the people you killed had sort of agreed to live by this code and die by this code.

00:31:10.600 And on that, on that, on that note, uh, that heavy note, let me pause it.

00:31:14.820 Okay.

00:31:15.120 Cause I, I want to get into that next and that's a, that's a whole other chapter for

00:31:18.720 us.

00:31:18.880 So much, much more with Sammy, the bold Gravano as he stays with us for the whole show.

00:31:24.520 Fascinating story to tell.

00:31:26.520 Now streaming on Paramount plus.

00:31:29.360 Someone is trying to frame us until our names are cleared.

00:31:33.940 We're fugitives from interval like Bonnie and Clyde with better snacks.

00:31:39.400 Espionage.

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00:31:45.320 We like to walk that fine line between techno thriller and romantic comedy.

00:31:50.580 We make up our own rules.

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00:31:55.940 So Sammy, it was actually a quote that I was reading, uh, not from an FBI agent.

00:32:06.100 It was from Terrence winter, who the audience may know as the executive producer of the Sopranos.

00:32:10.960 And he also did boardwalk empire.

00:32:12.580 And he was, uh, he took part in a documentary about you and said the following many mobsters

00:32:16.980 consider what they do almost military in nature.

00:32:20.080 They consider themselves soldiers.

00:32:21.880 So they rationalize a lot of really bad behavior.

00:32:25.440 You wouldn't think about calling a soldier at war, a murderer.

00:32:28.240 So therefore, if they're a soldier and they're at war, they're not murderers either.

00:32:33.360 They're just doing their job.

00:32:35.700 Does that capture the mentality?

00:32:38.940 I believe so.

00:32:39.840 I, a hundred percent, you know, I watched the program one time during world war two,

00:32:47.040 we dropped an atom bomb, not atomic bomb, but an atom bomb twice, not once, twice.

00:32:54.720 But I saw the guy who was in the plane and over Hiroshima or somewhere.

00:33:02.880 And he pressed the button and it killed a hundred thousand people, men, women, and children

00:33:10.120 in a split second.

00:33:11.660 And they were patting him on the back that he did a great job.

00:33:16.600 The war was ended early because of those things.

00:33:20.700 And, um, if I was talking to the guy, I would say, listen, you did a great job.

00:33:26.140 Great military guy.

00:33:27.780 You fought for the country.

00:33:29.980 You did what you were supposed to do.

00:33:32.420 How do you feel now knowing you just killed a hundred thousand people, men, women, and children?

00:33:40.120 Does that bother you at all?

00:33:42.380 And I'm sure he would tell me no, because he was fighting for the country.

00:33:47.880 He was fighting for what he thought was right in the mafia.

00:33:52.480 It's part of, it's not a gang no more.

00:33:54.620 It's part of my heritage.

00:33:56.600 It came from Italy, Sicily.

00:34:00.040 It started in Sicily and it came to this country.

00:34:03.640 So it's part of my heritage.

00:34:04.940 So it's not just a gang, a gang is, you know, killing in a gang or doing certain things

00:34:12.700 for a drug spot is a different thing, but this is a soldier.

00:34:17.540 It was explained to me.

00:34:19.060 I was involved in the Johnny Keys hit was a major, major hit.

00:34:22.760 And it was, he was, uh, a guy who had 50 hits under his belt and me and him were going

00:34:32.820 to go at each other.

00:34:34.360 And it was explained to me that we were like two Samurais.

00:34:39.760 Now I understand that Samurai is a different thing than us.

00:34:43.020 They're actually more violent than us.

00:34:44.980 But I really felt that way, that we were two Samurais who met on the battlefield.

00:34:55.240 What about, can I ask you, let me ask you a couple of follow-ups on that.

00:34:57.880 So obviously when we, when we dropped the bomb at the end of World War II, they estimated

00:35:03.040 that we saved somewhere upwards of 25, 30 million lives by, by putting an end to World War II when

00:35:10.220 the Japanese would not surrender.

00:35:12.940 And, and so, you know, I'm not defending the, the, the killing of a hundred thousand people

00:35:18.120 exactly, but in a way I am, because it was the right decision.

00:35:21.000 It saved far more lives than it actually cost.

00:35:23.840 But in the, in the mafia, and I can get it if the guy was going to kill you.

00:35:26.640 Let me, let me, let me answer your question.

00:35:28.000 Let me answer that question.

00:35:29.320 The people who say that it saved 25 to 30 million lives was who?

00:35:35.760 The government?

00:35:37.240 Of course, they're going to say that.

00:35:38.680 I mean, independent analysts to take a look at who have taken a look at this ad nauseum

00:35:43.420 since the end of World War II will tell you that the, the lives saved far, far outnumbered

00:35:49.740 the lives cost.

00:35:50.880 Doesn't make it not controversial, but you can't talk about it without adding that perspective.

00:35:56.700 But I mean, the thing about the mafia, and I can understand if you, if a guy was going

00:36:00.100 to kill you, I mean, even the law recognizes maybe not exactly the way that you would do it,

00:36:05.960 but what recognizes the right to self-defense.

00:36:08.640 But, you know, it seems like it was a whole criminal justice system that you guys agreed

00:36:13.580 to where, you know, you, you sleep with the guy's wife. 1.00

00:36:16.100 You could get whacked. 1.00

00:36:17.240 You, you interfere with my business. 1.00

00:36:18.880 You could get whacked.

00:36:19.620 It basically is just whatever the head of the crime family wants.

00:36:23.800 And the guy doesn't show up like a samurai face to face in a meeting where you fight

00:36:28.960 it out to the death.

00:36:29.760 He just gets in the car with you. 0.98

00:36:31.020 He gets whacked in the back of the head.

00:36:32.660 So I'm interested in the moral, you know, the way you thought about those kind of differences 0.87

00:36:38.180 morally.

00:36:38.720 Well, morally, I, I don't know if it's it to me, if it makes a difference, if you kill

00:36:47.040 somebody on a battlefield or you kill somebody in the car or whether you use a gun or whether

00:36:52.520 you use a knife or whether you use poison, that is that you just took a life.

00:36:58.400 It doesn't matter how you take it. 0.86

00:37:00.980 You can beat somebody to death. 0.96

00:37:02.640 You could fight. 0.86

00:37:03.440 You could win a fight. 0.98

00:37:04.660 You can go overboard and just beat this person to death.

00:37:07.640 So you just took a life, no matter how it is, whether it's more gory about the means.

00:37:15.340 OK, you're talking about the means.

00:37:16.860 Yeah, the means of how you're doing it.

00:37:19.700 I don't know if it makes any difference.

00:37:21.800 Now they want to take guns away from everybody because there's a shooting.

00:37:27.320 I mean, if there's not a shooting, you want to take guns away from everybody. 0.98

00:37:31.100 You get some sicko. 0.98

00:37:32.260 So he goes in with a bomb and he blows half the school up and he kills more people, actually, 0.99

00:37:39.100 than he's using a gun.

00:37:40.280 Does that make you happy that you didn't have a gun?

00:37:42.260 So I don't think the means of what you use is that important.

00:37:49.680 You're taking a life.

00:37:51.080 Whatever it is, whatever your reason is, whatever the senses look at later on, you're taking a life.

00:37:58.740 Whether it's on a battlefield, in the street, no matter how you do it or what you do, you're taking a life, bottom line.

00:38:06.140 But we have excuses for what, how you do it.

00:38:11.940 If me and him were in a battlefield in the street, we, like years ago, we back up and we pull out a gun from the side and we both shoot at each other.

00:38:20.780 You're taking a life.

00:38:21.920 What's the difference how you do it?

00:38:24.800 Dead is dead.

00:38:25.900 My brother-in-law had a good saying.

00:38:27.740 You get hit by a car and you're all crunched up, bleeding.

00:38:32.720 All your bones are busted up and you're dying.

00:38:35.000 How would you feel if the person ran over and said, it's me, Sammy.

00:38:43.380 He didn't do it on purpose.

00:38:45.200 It's an accident.

00:38:45.920 Does it make a difference to me if it's an accident or it's on purpose?

00:38:51.120 I'm all crushed up.

00:38:52.720 I'm in tremendous pain.

00:38:53.900 I'm about to die.

00:38:56.040 Death is death.

00:38:58.080 I don't know, though.

00:38:59.420 That ignores the moral code.

00:39:03.260 I mean, I agree with you in terms of, you know, you die by a knife, you die by a gun.

00:39:07.220 It doesn't make much of a difference to you.

00:39:08.760 But we're expanding beyond that, too.

00:39:11.400 The the law recognizes some some killings as justified.

00:39:16.420 It would not recognize any of the ones that you're talking about is justified.

00:39:20.320 And I think you know that it's just what you're saying is that in the mafia, you live by a different code of justice.

00:39:26.520 And and it's as I understand it, your position is that you wouldn't run around killing what you call legitimate people.

00:39:34.200 It's you know, if somebody pissed you off in your social life, he wouldn't be at risk of getting whacked.

00:39:41.420 You only for the most part, we'll get to one of the exceptions I know about, but it sounds like it may have been an accident.

00:39:48.340 But for the most part, you only went after people who were part of your world and who had agreed to live and die by this code.

00:39:56.860 Right. Exactly.

00:39:58.660 Then I never killed a woman or a child and I never killed even a legitimate guy who I didn't get along with or whatever.

00:40:07.900 I mean, I had fights, but that's as far as that would go.

00:40:11.860 I'm not going to kill somebody because I don't like what he said or something like that.

00:40:16.440 We're not complete lunatics.

00:40:17.800 Some of us became lunatics, but I never I never went to that degree.

00:40:24.500 I live by this code.

00:40:26.860 And I I would willing to die by the code.

00:40:30.320 I told my family when I cooperated, we talked about cooperating when I cooperated.

00:40:35.120 I said, if somebody comes down and kills me, don't don't don't even be mad.

00:40:39.140 Don't say nothing.

00:40:40.160 Don't do anything.

00:40:41.180 Don't be mad.

00:40:42.120 I broke the code.

00:40:43.680 I understood that I could die for what I was doing.

00:40:46.700 If I could understand it, you understand it.

00:40:49.660 Leave it alone.

00:40:51.020 So I believe in that code, just like I believe in God, but I don't believe in certain religions.

00:40:57.000 It's probably most religions, but you got to live by something. 0.97

00:41:04.320 And I live by what I was taught by my mother and my father, the legitimate and a lot of people

00:41:10.220 who would say I was a different kind of gangsters.

00:41:13.780 You talked about the law enforcement.

00:41:15.960 I'm still friends with agents, NYPD cops till today because they were they were different.

00:41:24.300 We got along.

00:41:25.140 We were friends.

00:41:26.060 They had one life.

00:41:27.160 I had another life.

00:41:28.140 We understood each other.

00:41:29.840 And I was basically a different kind of a gangster.

00:41:34.500 I cared about people.

00:41:36.300 I'm a people's person.

00:41:38.100 Basically.

00:41:39.860 My ex-wife and my daughter or my son will say, Dad, you talk to everybody.

00:41:44.140 Yeah.

00:41:45.100 They're human beings.

00:41:45.920 I talk to people.

00:41:46.740 I love people.

00:41:48.460 I like hardworking people.

00:41:50.620 But what about Alan Kaiser?

00:41:51.940 This was a 16 year old boy who you killed.

00:41:56.060 And I understand your defense was it was accidental.

00:41:59.820 No, no.

00:42:00.800 It's not accidental.

00:42:02.420 And I didn't kill.

00:42:03.220 First of all, there was a gang who came and they actually did movies about this.

00:42:08.880 So our after hour club, bikers. 0.99

00:42:10.800 And I went to that place.

00:42:14.280 I wound up getting a beating.

00:42:16.300 I got jumped by six, seven guys.

00:42:18.860 My ankle was broke on both sides.

00:42:22.020 I had a cast from my knee down and I had permission to go after this guy.

00:42:28.020 And it wasn't Alan Kaiser.

00:42:29.780 So I'll tell you what happened.

00:42:30.740 We got in the car and we were looking for him.

00:42:33.760 One night we saw him pull up in front of the house.

00:42:37.000 A different guy.

00:42:37.160 Double pop.

00:42:37.600 A different guy.

00:42:38.140 Aldo Candido.

00:42:39.740 Yes.

00:42:40.800 Yes.

00:42:41.320 And I said, that's him.

00:42:42.660 We went back to our club.

00:42:45.820 We got guns.

00:42:47.480 We got a shotgun.

00:42:49.100 Now, it was supposed to be loaded with double O buck, which would put down a moose.

00:42:55.140 But they were using it for pigeons and playing around with it.

00:42:58.740 It was, it was a bird, bird shot.

00:43:02.720 So anyway, Louie Melito had it.

00:43:04.760 I said, pull up to the car.

00:43:06.560 When you see him coming out of that house where the car was double parked, stop.

00:43:11.780 Ask him for directions like we're lost.

00:43:14.280 I was laying down in the back seat with a cast on my leg.

00:43:18.740 There was a driver and Louie Melito was in the passenger seat. 1.00

00:43:21.520 I said, when he gets to the car to answer you, I'll shoot him in the face. 0.99

00:43:28.980 Louie Melito rolled down the window when he came out. 0.97

00:43:34.440 And he must have been told the night before that what they did was to a maid guy, me.

00:43:41.740 And he knew he was in trouble.

00:43:44.320 So as soon as Louie asked him for directions, he started to run. 0.56

00:43:48.560 Louie jumped out of the car, threw a shot at him, hit him in the back.

00:43:53.480 He kept running, didn't put him down.

00:43:55.860 He kept running.

00:43:56.980 This kid, Alan Kaiser, and I spoke to the family and everybody about this.

00:44:02.480 He was 16.

00:44:03.960 We didn't know he was 16.

00:44:05.260 He wasn't a target, wasn't in the hit, wasn't supposed to get hit.

00:44:09.200 No accident.

00:44:10.300 He ran at Louie Melito.

00:44:12.600 He might've been part of that gang.

00:44:14.000 I don't know.

00:44:15.960 The driver yelled to Louie Melito, guy coming at you.

00:44:20.800 He turned around with the shotgun, inches away from the guy and shot him in the chest. 0.93

00:44:26.880 When he went down, he put the shotgun to his head, pulled the trigger again and killed him.

00:44:32.800 We found out the next day that he was 16 years old.

00:44:37.240 We were in shock.

00:44:39.840 It was terrible.

00:44:41.280 16.

00:44:41.800 The number itself, shock shock.

00:44:44.760 But why did he run it, Louie Melito?

00:44:48.180 Why did he do that?

00:44:49.840 He wasn't the target.

00:44:51.440 Nobody was shooting at him.

00:44:53.180 He could've ran back at his house.

00:44:54.680 He could've went the other way.

00:44:55.880 He could've just stood there and never got touched.

00:44:59.880 So now, whether he was on drugs, whether he was part of the gang, I don't know.

00:45:04.420 You hear stories.

00:45:05.460 Just for the record, his family says he was not a gangster.

00:45:08.640 Quote, he was just an innocent kid walking home.

00:45:10.880 No, no, not a gangster.

00:45:12.260 He's 16 years old.

00:45:13.160 He definitely wasn't a gangster.

00:45:14.500 He could've been a gang member.

00:45:16.060 Or he knew this guy because the guy was in his house.

00:45:19.540 So the family can't deny that.

00:45:22.400 That guy was in his house.

00:45:23.860 They were together.

00:45:25.160 He came out.

00:45:26.040 The other guy came to the car and he was on the side.

00:45:31.540 Nobody was going to shoot him.

00:45:34.220 And the family recognizes that, too.

00:45:36.480 I talked with the sister.

00:45:38.580 And she said, I don't know what made him do that.

00:45:42.080 Now, people will say that I killed a 16-year-old kid.

00:45:45.700 First of all, I didn't shoot him.

00:45:46.820 Louie did.

00:45:47.580 But it doesn't matter. 0.99

00:45:48.500 If I could've shot him, I would've. 0.95

00:45:50.780 I'm not trying to make myself a good guy. 0.85

00:45:52.640 I didn't shoot him.

00:45:53.940 But the police found him exactly where it was in the street, where he got to.

00:46:02.300 He came off the sidewalk into the street after Louie.

00:46:06.000 Not on the sidewalk with his books coming home from school, like you hear some stories.

00:46:11.080 None of that's true.

00:46:12.500 Now, it was a shame.

00:46:13.980 We were sick about that he was 16 years old.

00:46:17.120 And we were confused why he even did that.

00:46:20.440 And he wasn't a target of the hit.

00:46:23.480 We weren't even looking at him.

00:46:25.360 But what would you expect?

00:46:27.020 What would I expect Louie to do?

00:46:29.500 The guy is actually a foot away from him.

00:46:32.880 What is he supposed to do?

00:46:34.140 Just stand there and wait for the guy to grab him and tackle him to the ground or do something?

00:46:38.780 He's on the hit.

00:46:39.880 You know, obviously, this is why we don't choose a life of crime.

00:46:43.600 This is why we don't we don't go to murder people in neighborhoods and take law into our own hands and why the law prohibits it, because bad things can happen.

00:46:52.960 And that's why there's something called felony murder.

00:46:54.660 You're in the process of committing one felony and you accidentally or otherwise commit another murder.

00:46:59.540 You're going to be charged for it, even if it was an accident in the course of the felony, because the law recognizes creating extremely dangerous situations.

00:47:06.380 Absolutely.

00:47:06.820 Absolutely.

00:47:08.060 And I'm charged with it because I'm part of the murder, not the shooter.

00:47:12.700 And he wasn't the target, but I still get charged with it.

00:47:15.840 And I understand that.

00:47:17.200 That's why it's on my list of 19 people that he's there.

00:47:21.240 I mean, and I get it.

00:47:22.780 But I did give a courtesy to the family.

00:47:26.820 They talked to my daughter.

00:47:29.100 They talked with my son.

00:47:31.020 And they wanted to talk with me.

00:47:32.580 And I did talk with them.

00:47:34.240 I took the time to explain what happened and why.

00:47:38.480 Nobody wanted to kill this kid.

00:47:40.500 They understood that.

00:47:41.820 I don't know what they told you or told anybody else.

00:47:44.520 And I know that the Gottis instigated these people saying that I killed their son or their brother, 16 years old. 0.94

00:47:53.280 I'm a baby killer.

00:47:54.580 That was brought up by the Gottis who were trying to make me look bad or make it look worse. 0.96

00:48:02.300 And I know how it was brought up.

00:48:04.960 And like I said, this was talked about with the families.

00:48:07.960 The whole thing was talked about with the police.

00:48:10.400 And it's not I'm not saying it was a good thing.

00:48:13.820 It was a horrible thing.

00:48:15.520 But it's one of those things that happened.

00:48:18.300 I mean, if I see a murder, I think I'm a pretty tough guy.

00:48:21.300 I see somebody shooting at somebody.

00:48:23.600 I'm not going to run at the shooter.

00:48:25.520 He's got a gun.

00:48:26.120 I got it.

00:48:26.800 I got it.

00:48:27.360 I got it.

00:48:27.740 Let me pause you there.

00:48:28.960 Let me let me squeeze in one more break.

00:48:30.800 And we'll be right back.

00:48:32.340 Much more to the story with Sammy the Bull Gravano as we continue right after this.

00:48:37.640 Now streaming on Paramount Plus.

00:48:40.460 Someone is trying to frame us.

00:48:42.080 Until our names are cleared.

00:48:45.220 We're fugitives from interval.

00:48:47.000 Like Bonnie and Clyde with better snacks.

00:48:50.460 Espionage.

00:48:51.080 You still as good a shot as you used to be?

00:48:54.160 Better.

00:48:54.900 Is there love language?

00:48:56.380 We like to walk that fine line between techno thriller.

00:49:00.000 And romantic comedy.

00:49:01.680 We make up our own rules.

00:49:02.940 NCIS Tony and Ziva.

00:49:05.180 Now streaming on Paramount Plus.

00:49:06.920 You're saying my father's right.

00:49:10.060 I mean what you said. 1.00

00:49:11.280 I hear this bitch behind my back talking about my father. 1.00

00:49:14.800 Do not say nothing when my back is turned. 1.00

00:49:16.600 Say it to my face.

00:49:17.560 And automatically I just black the out. 1.00

00:49:20.200 I don't give a if he's a rat. 0.89

00:49:21.880 I'm not. 0.96

00:49:22.060 You say it to my face. 1.00

00:49:24.060 Check my bloodline, bitch. 1.00

00:49:25.460 I'm coming for you. 1.00

00:49:26.160 You want to keep talking about families?

00:49:27.800 Let's talk.

00:49:29.520 You want to bring up families?

00:49:30.940 You want to get my daughter into this? 1.00

00:49:32.360 For my daughter, for my father, for every buddy that you spoke about. 1.00

00:49:37.620 I will take a piece of you every time, bitch. 1.00

00:49:39.800 This is why you never talk about families. 1.00

00:49:42.660 Look at the outcome.

00:49:44.000 Now that blood was drawn, these will never be the same again.

00:49:47.460 OK, so that was the bulk of that clip is Karen Gravano, Sammy's daughter, who was one

00:49:53.540 of the stars of the show Mob Wives, which I confess I absolutely loved.

00:49:57.760 And she was very open about what it was like to grow up as your daughter and sort of when

00:50:04.120 she how she slowly became aware of what you did for a living and how she could tell,

00:50:10.460 you know, obviously she's fiery and feisty, but how she could sort of tell that you were

00:50:15.420 an important man, you know, the way people greeted you, the way people showed you respect.

00:50:19.760 And I know, you know, that must have manifested in your life to sort of getting into the clubs

00:50:25.440 in New York.

00:50:26.060 And I saw the ABC documentary where, you know, you talked about you looked at the Manhattan

00:50:31.600 skyline and said, you know, I own this, I own it, I built it, I control it.

00:50:35.860 So can you talk to us a little bit about that that piece of your history?

00:50:41.120 Yeah, well, you know, I I became very powerful in the construction industry.

00:50:46.100 And one day we were on the other side in in Connecticut, I believe it is.

00:50:51.420 And we were in a fancy hotel and we went out, I went out on the patio and

00:50:57.040 smoking a cigar, I think.

00:50:59.380 And I looked at the skyline at night, Manhattan is gorgeous, lit up at night.

00:51:04.760 And it just, the guy who was with me said, what are you looking at?

00:51:09.220 I said, look at this, look at the beauty here.

00:51:11.420 It's, it's, it's absolutely stunning.

00:51:13.420 It's gorgeous.

00:51:13.920 And, uh, I'm part of building this whole thing.

00:51:18.820 I mean, you can't get a job at this point in my life without some sort of a wink and

00:51:24.540 a nod from me saying yes or no.

00:51:27.860 I mean, I became very powerful in the construction industry.

00:51:31.800 Paul had me, Paul Castellano had me under his wing because he loved construction.

00:51:36.160 And, um, he was part of the reason I became very powerful in the construction industry.

00:51:43.220 And, uh, he enjoyed using me to run certain unit unions and do certain things for him.

00:51:50.020 And, um, yeah, I, I, I loved, uh, what I was doing as far as the construction.

00:51:56.280 I should, I should mention, cause you mentioned Paul Castellano.

00:51:58.720 So, cause you had sort of started with a different crime family and then eventually moved over to

00:52:03.180 the Gambino crime family.

00:52:04.580 And that's the family that Paul Castellano for a time was the head of.

00:52:07.560 And you would later become part of his assassination.

00:52:11.520 Um, but before, before, before we get to that, um, so you're living large, you're living large

00:52:16.860 in New York.

00:52:17.580 And this was a time, I mean, what, it's a weird question, but like, to what extent did

00:52:21.660 that film, the Godfather affect people's view of the mafia and your own experience within

00:52:28.020 the mafia?

00:52:28.520 You know, cause it, when I was growing up, you knew about the mafia, but there, there definitely

00:52:32.660 was a glorification around it.

00:52:34.180 You know, it seemed like, oh, they hurt people, but maybe mostly their own people, but that's

00:52:38.620 not really true.

00:52:39.320 I mean, the extortion was on regular folks too.

00:52:42.320 Um, and yet they seem kind of cool and people wanted to like rub elbows with them in very

00:52:47.880 high circles.

00:52:48.800 There was speculation about Frank Sinatra and, you know, so on and so forth.

00:52:51.860 So what was your experience of that movie and people's reaction to the mob?

00:52:56.900 Well, that movie stunned me.

00:53:00.940 It was probably one of the best movies I ever watched.

00:53:04.240 Uh, it was completely well done.

00:53:08.020 Uh, Godfather one and Godfather two, Godfather three was a joke.

00:53:12.340 But yeah.

00:53:13.460 Cause you were in it when this was coming out.

00:53:15.120 You were, you were in it when those movies hit.

00:53:16.520 Um, yeah, yeah.

00:53:18.260 And it, it, you know, it showed the family orientation, how we are with family, the weddings, our family,

00:53:27.240 my family had weddings like that and people would get up and sing and it was fun.

00:53:32.200 And, uh, you know, uh, who was it?

00:53:36.420 Sonny is with one of the bridesmaids in a, in a, in a room upstairs.

00:53:40.740 I mean, that's typical of us.

00:53:43.160 That was really typical of us.

00:53:45.380 All that stuff that happened in that, uh, the, the, the agents watching us.

00:53:50.080 And it just gave me a whole different look at the mob and how the people would look at it.

00:53:57.880 And as far as the fascination, I know what it is.

00:54:01.420 Everybody in my mind anyway, uh, has a fascination, especially men have a fascination of being a tough 0.99

00:54:09.880 guy, uh, going with beautiful women, uh, beautiful cars, making money, you know, fuck the government. 1.00

00:54:17.160 I don't want to pay taxes and I don't want to do this and that, the other thing. 0.98

00:54:20.780 So everybody looked at it and it's, you didn't live that life, but you admired it in a way you

00:54:29.120 felt a certain way when you watched it.

00:54:31.620 And I watched this new movie that came out, the offer, how they made the Godfather, very

00:54:37.780 interesting movie, great movie, um, with the producers in Hollywood, the whole nine yards.

00:54:44.400 I mean, just watching these things, the mafia really, you know, it's when I was in prison

00:54:50.120 a couple of times, AB's Aryan brothers and other gang members came to me and tell, told

00:54:56.680 me, Sammy, tell me about the structure of the mafia.

00:55:00.520 And I would tell them why you're not the mafia, you're, you're Aryan brothers. 0.98

00:55:05.880 Why would you want to know?

00:55:07.160 And they said, your structure lasted a thousand years.

00:55:10.880 People admire you guys.

00:55:13.380 People want, some people wanted to be like you guys.

00:55:16.940 So what's the whole structure about?

00:55:20.200 So I, I realized then, even them asking me questions like that, that they admire themselves

00:55:26.400 and wanted to be like it.

00:55:28.300 My answer to them was, we're not savages.

00:55:32.020 We don't kill outside our, our organization where everybody in the mafia at one time or

00:55:40.020 another has been involved in a murder, 99%.

00:55:43.260 So how do you control that group of people?

00:55:49.520 If there's no violence within us, if there's no punishments that could cause death, how do

00:55:56.400 you stop them?

00:55:57.040 How do you stop a guy?

00:55:59.860 What are you going to do?

00:56:00.500 Cut off his tie? 0.88

00:56:01.680 What do you, slap him on the wrist?

00:56:04.360 He's not going to listen to you.

00:56:05.960 Then he'll do whatever he wants to do.

00:56:07.720 Then there'll be no control.

00:56:09.120 We'll be no better than a gang.

00:56:11.300 And that's what I would tell some A-B guys and stuff like that.

00:56:14.680 You have to have rules.

00:56:16.160 You have to have ideas.

00:56:18.040 You know, I looked at, there was a conversation I just had recently about, I was in Paul Castellano's

00:56:25.720 house and the union, which we control the association and the union for the garbage.

00:56:31.780 And there was a massive strike. 0.83

00:56:34.700 It was on television.

00:56:36.400 There was garbage piled up everywhere.

00:56:38.860 I came in and he told me to sit down.

00:56:43.800 The maid got me a cup of coffee.

00:56:46.620 And he said, send it for Jimmy Brown and the people who are running the union and the association.

00:56:53.880 So we sat there for a while, 15 minutes, 20 minutes.

00:56:57.620 Those guys came in.

00:56:59.740 Jimmy Brown was a captain.

00:57:01.240 The other guy was a maid guy.

00:57:02.880 And he said, look at this television.

00:57:05.260 He said, what are we, animals? 0.97

00:57:09.500 Pick up that garbage from schools, from hospitals, from old age homes. 0.78

00:57:15.120 We'll win the strike. 0.95

00:57:17.480 But what are we, animals?

00:57:19.100 Over money?

00:57:20.480 Over winning?

00:57:21.180 We'll win. 1.00

00:57:22.280 Pick up that goddamn garbage. 1.00

00:57:25.580 And it struck me in a way that here's the boss of bosses, Paul Castellano. 1.00

00:57:30.500 He was the boss of bosses.

00:57:32.400 He was the head of the commission.

00:57:33.800 He was saying something like that, caring about children, hospitals, old age homes, that they would be infected with garbage or whatever.

00:57:47.320 It's gave me a different look at things.

00:57:49.960 And I, you know, those are good things that I saw.

00:57:52.820 There's evil things I saw.

00:57:55.040 There's people who borderline got to like killing and became serial killers like Roy DeMeo or Gas Pipe and people like that. 0.93

00:58:03.800 And we killed them because they became that. 0.67

00:58:08.420 So we don't believe in pedophiles, rapists, serial killers. 1.00

00:58:13.960 We want to get rid of that.

00:58:15.180 When I was in my neighborhood, I, you know, the whole neighborhood, I would say, this is my neighborhood.

00:58:23.800 People I don't even know.

00:58:25.180 Maybe you lived in there.

00:58:26.200 I didn't even know you.

00:58:27.800 You're a beautiful woman.

00:58:29.340 You'd walk down the block.

00:58:31.300 My guys, I would tell them, this is not a construction site.

00:58:33.940 Don't hoot and hell.

00:58:35.160 Don't do anything when you see her.

00:58:37.660 She's part of our, our community.

00:58:41.040 They're us.

00:58:42.960 Nobody's going to touch her.

00:58:44.700 Her husband knew she was beautiful.

00:58:46.980 He'll tell her, go right past Sandy's Club.

00:58:48.840 Don't worry about it.

00:58:50.440 He said that because he knew she was safe.

00:58:53.800 We wouldn't let nothing happen to her.

00:58:56.660 Around the block, only God knows what happens.

00:58:59.120 So we, we lived a different way.

00:59:03.080 And I think that touched the public in a certain way.

00:59:07.200 They, they, they, they didn't agree with the violence, but we were different.

00:59:13.000 We were a different type of an organization, criminal organization.

00:59:16.640 I'll call it criminal because it is, you know, we would take, like you say, from every industry,

00:59:24.720 but we took a little bite out of every industry.

00:59:29.120 We screwed the government out of taxes.

00:59:31.220 Yeah.

00:59:32.560 We screwed insurance companies.

00:59:34.580 Yeah.

00:59:35.620 We didn't feel any guilt about that because they screwed people all the time.

00:59:41.900 My mother and father that broke their back and was so legitimate.

00:59:47.620 I, I don't even know how I became a gangster.

00:59:50.200 To tell you the truth.

00:59:50.720 They were so legitimate, so honest, but they were taken advantage of by unions, by, by,

00:59:58.720 the government.

01:00:02.420 So I have no sympathy for government.

01:00:04.820 I have no sympathy for insurance companies who sometimes go overboard and people are sick.

01:00:11.500 And, oh no, we're not going to pay that claim or we're not going to do this.

01:00:14.940 We're not going to do that.

01:00:15.780 I'm not saying all of them.

01:00:16.960 There's some really good people, honest people out there in every industry.

01:00:21.000 And there's some bad people in every industry.

01:00:24.320 So, you know, I have mixed feelings with a lot of these things.

01:00:29.560 And what about like the mom and pa shop owner on the corner who are just trying to make ends

01:00:33.240 meet and they got to pay extra money every month for security or, you know, for permission

01:00:38.580 from you guys to do what is their legal right to do or else?

01:00:43.100 Never happened, never, never happened, never happened as far as I'm concerned, never happened.

01:00:48.640 All the mom and pop stores knew my mother, my father, me, my family.

01:00:52.800 It was a community.

01:00:54.700 What, what, if you're worried about the mom and pop stores, I'll tell you what crushed

01:00:58.720 them is big corporations.

01:01:01.420 Well, liberal elites.

01:01:02.260 Of course.

01:01:03.080 Get these big corporations and crush them.

01:01:05.740 You know, I had a little milk farm, they called it.

01:01:09.680 It's a little grocery store at one point in my life.

01:01:12.720 And I bought Pampers wholesale and I put them for a cheap number.

01:01:19.020 I wasn't making any money just as a draw for people.

01:01:22.280 So I sent my partner, my Goombada Ali boy, Como, go to the supermarket, see what they're 1.00

01:01:29.100 charging.

01:01:29.440 When he came back, he said, Sammy, they're charging like less than we're paying for the

01:01:36.440 wholesale.

01:01:38.060 So I said, how could they do that?

01:01:41.000 He said, well, number one, they're buying tons of stuff.

01:01:46.320 I wasn't, I'm buying two cases.

01:01:49.080 They're buying 4,000 cases.

01:01:52.540 And if they want to make a sale and do the same idea that I have, how can I compete with

01:01:58.520 them?

01:01:58.640 I took the two cases of Pampers and threw them out.

01:02:01.500 I can't compete with them.

01:02:03.140 Okay.

01:02:03.660 So this is what happened in small business, got crushed.

01:02:07.600 But the mom and pop stores, I mean, I, I've never, ever thought about, I, we love these

01:02:13.520 people.

01:02:14.260 We knew them.

01:02:15.560 We went to a bakery, a fruit and vegetable store.

01:02:19.140 Those things don't even exist anymore.

01:02:21.260 But you guys, you didn't charge people for security, uh, saying no, no, not security.

01:02:26.780 Never.

01:02:27.400 Well, for something though.

01:02:28.360 I mean, I remember I have some personal knowledge on this because in another life before I was

01:02:32.000 a journalist, I was a lawyer and, um, the, the lawyer I worked for at this law firm, Jones

01:02:36.640 Day was charged with enforcing a consent decree that the mob had entered into in New York

01:02:41.700 city.

01:02:41.940 And that meant the mob admitted it had done a bunch of things and we were responsible

01:02:45.560 for making sure it lived up to its promise not to keep doing them.

01:02:49.100 And, you know, the sort of the harassment of small businesses, small business owners was

01:02:54.040 on the list, money laundering and so on.

01:02:56.540 That was another thing.

01:02:57.200 But, you know, this sort of smaller crime, smaller than murders and so on within the

01:03:01.340 family, that's, that's one of the reasons why people don't like the mafia, right?

01:03:06.980 Like it's not all within your own family.

01:03:08.760 There are innocent people who get hurt and who have to pay unnecessary money that they

01:03:13.720 shouldn't have to pay.

01:03:14.280 And who could get hurt if they don't do as, as, as told.

01:03:17.740 Well, listen, I, like I said before, you know, there's good and bad in every organization

01:03:22.340 and there's bad guys in the mafia who would do something like that, do a lot of things

01:03:26.720 like that.

01:03:27.280 That wasn't our norm.

01:03:28.860 Now I would do that with a disco or something to protect when you talk about protection

01:03:33.820 money.

01:03:34.660 If you can mention my name, nobody could come in and bother you.

01:03:40.360 Mafia wise or any, any, any other way.

01:03:42.880 I'll take care of your problems.

01:03:44.280 But I didn't cripple them.

01:03:45.660 They gave me a pay or they gave me something that helped them.

01:03:49.740 I don't, I don't look at it as hurting them, shaking them down.

01:03:53.300 It's like a rent.

01:03:54.420 It's like anything else that, or any bill that you pay.

01:03:57.180 And in most cases that I did, it was a reasonable pay.

01:04:02.100 Um, what I did mostly is use my power to help grow a company and I would become their partner.

01:04:09.900 I'll give you a quick example.

01:04:11.160 There was a guy who had a small little container company.

01:04:14.700 He'd go to houses and put the container, you're moving, you put all your garbage in that container

01:04:19.980 and he's making money. 0.89

01:04:20.960 The containers were garbage and I got to like the guy.

01:04:25.340 I went to him and I said, listen, I got connections in Jersey. 0.83

01:04:30.280 I can get the best containers and I could increase your business.

01:04:35.040 So we had a conversation.

01:04:37.600 I said, I don't want any contracts or anything like that.

01:04:40.760 We could work on a handshake.

01:04:42.300 How much do you make a year?

01:04:44.500 And he said about a hundred thousand a year.

01:04:47.820 I said, how about we go partners?

01:04:50.340 The first hundred thousand you make, that's yours.

01:04:52.960 That's what you make.

01:04:54.160 Anything above that, me and you were partners and I could get you more work.

01:04:58.680 I could get you better containers.

01:05:00.860 So we did that.

01:05:01.820 We shook hands and we did that.

01:05:04.000 At the end of the year of our partnership, I says, how did we do?

01:05:08.580 What did you, what'd you make?

01:05:10.140 He says, Sammy, I made 400,000 this year.

01:05:13.100 All right.

01:05:13.760 The first hundred thousand is yours.

01:05:15.380 The other hundred thousand, the allegation, the allegation against you by your critics

01:05:20.320 is that nobody should have accepted this kind of an offer from you because if they wanted 0.98

01:05:26.980 to renegotiate or if they wanted a bigger piece of the pie, you would kill them.

01:05:33.600 No, it's not true. 0.97

01:05:34.660 That is not true.

01:05:35.540 I've never killed a partner.

01:05:37.780 Listen, I'm I'm I'm this what I told what we're talking about happened 40, 50 years ago.

01:05:42.700 And if you came to my office, I'll show you 14, 15 different letters of people who were

01:05:46.900 partners with me and knew me back then are sending me love letters.

01:05:50.640 And I don't know, I'm not talking about women, men.

01:05:52.860 Sammy, it was great.

01:05:54.120 I watch your podcast.

01:05:56.000 I hope you make it.

01:05:57.280 Our partnership was great.

01:05:58.880 So I don't know what would happen to the guys for whom it wasn't great.

01:06:02.700 What about what would happen to the guys who said, I don't like the deal and I actually

01:06:06.300 want to break up.

01:06:10.600 I didn't care.

01:06:11.440 The guy with the container business after a couple of years when I grew and I was making

01:06:15.900 so much money, I gave him the business back.

01:06:18.560 I didn't charge him a penny.

01:06:19.740 I walked away.

01:06:20.540 This is yours.

01:06:21.800 I did it with a guy named Joe Madonia with the Ace Partition.

01:06:26.000 We had 200 carpenters.

01:06:27.680 When I grew in status, I said, Joe, I love you.

01:06:31.120 I made a ton of money with you.

01:06:32.720 It's yours.

01:06:33.540 It's all yours now.

01:06:35.060 And if anybody bothers you, get in touch with me.

01:06:37.360 And if I could get you some big work, give me a piece.

01:06:39.880 I got a letter from him in my office now, a letter from him.

01:06:46.620 Loving, loving the partnership, the relationship we had.

01:06:50.400 Now, what would happen if a guy was wanting to take advantage of me in some way or throw

01:06:57.400 me out or push me out or do something on his own?

01:07:00.800 He wouldn't be happy with it.

01:07:02.060 He wouldn't get killed.

01:07:02.880 It's not a killing in my eyes.

01:07:04.900 It's not a killing offense.

01:07:06.560 But I was powerful with unions and everything. 1.00

01:07:09.240 I could be a tremendous pain in the ass. 1.00

01:07:11.980 And that's what I would be. 0.99

01:07:14.560 If he's going for jobs, if he would go for jobs, I would tell him, don't give him no work.

01:07:20.060 Yeah.

01:07:20.260 I imagine if Sammy the Bull tells you, don't give this guy any work, you don't give the

01:07:23.240 guy any work because there's a lot of power behind that name at that time, especially.

01:07:26.960 So that leads me to Donald Trump, because there were there was speculation in the press

01:07:33.620 when he was running for president that he had mob ties.

01:07:36.220 No one could ever get him on it.

01:07:37.580 Like, you know, the press tried to get him on everything.

01:07:40.020 None of that was ever proven.

01:07:41.240 But it reminded me of this this one exchange he had with David Letterman.

01:07:45.340 This is before he ran for president back in 2013, where he was asked, because this is

01:07:50.760 a guy in New York City real estate.

01:07:52.100 You know, he has to deal with construction and some of the industries that you just mentioned,

01:07:56.260 unions all the time.

01:07:58.300 And here's how that went.

01:07:59.740 This is Sada Levin.

01:08:01.620 Have you ever knowingly done business with what I like to call organized crime?

01:08:09.500 Have they ever stopped by?

01:08:10.900 I've really tried to stay away from them as much.

01:08:13.780 Right.

01:08:14.100 But have you ever had a case where a guy stopped by and said, Donald, we're going to handle

01:08:18.780 the linens.

01:08:19.620 You know, growing up in New York and doing business in New York, I would say there might

01:08:25.700 have been one of one of those characters along the way.

01:08:28.580 But generally speaking, I like to stay away from that group.

01:08:32.100 Yeah.

01:08:32.340 Well, I think that's that goes without saying.

01:08:34.640 But sometimes sometimes they don't let you stay away from them.

01:08:38.360 There's truth to that.

01:08:39.500 But if you're smart, you can stay away.

01:08:41.100 You have to stay away and just sort of lead your life.

01:08:44.200 You don't want to get involved.

01:08:45.260 Although I must say, I have met on occasion a few of those people.

01:08:48.300 They happen to be very nice people.

01:08:51.300 You just don't want to owe them money.

01:08:53.380 Yeah, I understand.

01:08:54.260 Don't owe them money.

01:08:58.460 I've heard you talk about him before and sort of said like he was you knew not to don't

01:09:04.760 go there.

01:09:05.240 You knew.

01:09:06.400 No, here's what it was with Donald Trump.

01:09:08.260 He was smart.

01:09:09.680 He was a good builder.

01:09:11.380 He was a great builder.

01:09:12.640 He was pretty honorable with the people he dealt with.

01:09:17.040 He had a group of ex-FBI agents for security purposes.

01:09:22.420 So we knew I knew that.

01:09:24.480 So you could push on him a little bit.

01:09:26.900 I tried.

01:09:28.420 But couldn't succeed.

01:09:30.440 What he's saying is right.

01:09:32.160 He knew we were there.

01:09:33.600 He knew that he had to deal with situations.

01:09:36.160 But he built it as a as a business guy.

01:09:39.040 You couldn't go up there and try to talk like this guy was talking.

01:09:42.780 You're going to threaten him.

01:09:44.100 Give me you would be arrested in three minutes.

01:09:46.580 Those agents were around 24 seven.

01:09:49.520 So I backed away from him because there was nothing I could do.

01:09:53.480 A guy named Eddie Garofalo had a demolition company.

01:09:58.340 He did a job for him.

01:10:01.880 He was able to reach some people in the company, but it never went to his level that we know

01:10:07.880 of.

01:10:08.600 And he didn't want to deal with us.

01:10:11.520 I left him alone because I thought that was a bad problem.

01:10:16.260 He was a legitimate guy.

01:10:17.420 I didn't want to go try to threaten him because I thought we would go to prison.

01:10:22.300 So we left him alone.

01:10:23.480 There was plenty of people who wanted to deal with us.

01:10:26.820 So to go up there like a thug and walk in his office and try to threaten him, you would

01:10:33.160 go to prison for sure.

01:10:34.860 So I don't think anybody bothered him.

01:10:36.380 I'm going to give you a quick example of a news reporter, a woman who called me one 1.00

01:10:41.480 day and told me the same thing you're telling me.

01:10:43.480 You were very powerful during the 80s.

01:10:46.660 And he was a big builder.

01:10:49.300 You must know something.

01:10:50.760 They're asking me after he became the president.

01:10:54.380 So I said, I really don't know, you know, just what I told you now.

01:10:58.440 That's what I know about him.

01:10:59.640 I really don't know any incidents that he's done anything.

01:11:03.200 If that's what you're looking for.

01:11:05.440 Sammy, please come on.

01:11:06.800 She's begging me for information. 0.99

01:11:08.780 It'll just be between me and you, which I knew is bullshit. 0.98

01:11:13.580 That's not going to happen. 0.97

01:11:15.320 She's looking for information.

01:11:16.600 It's not going to stay between me and her.

01:11:18.680 So I felt like goofing on.

01:11:20.160 And I said, listen, it's just between me and you.

01:11:24.200 Sammy, yeah, yeah.

01:11:25.080 I'll give you my word.

01:11:26.640 Nobody will ever know.

01:11:27.460 I said, all right.

01:11:30.520 There was a drywall job I wanted.

01:11:32.960 I knew this beautiful woman was a friend of mine. 1.00

01:11:35.540 She was a hooker. 1.00

01:11:37.240 So I hooked it up with Donald Trump, me, Trump, and her. 1.00

01:11:41.480 We had a menage a trois.

01:11:43.300 And I couldn't help it.

01:11:44.440 I started laughing. 1.00

01:11:45.660 So she said, you fuck, you're lying. 1.00

01:11:47.980 So I said, I'm not lying. 1.00

01:11:49.900 You keep pressing me.

01:11:51.160 And she was asking me, what's her name?

01:11:52.560 What's her name?

01:11:53.420 Why?

01:11:53.800 Who do you care what her name is? 0.56

01:11:55.320 You're not going to say nothing.

01:11:56.200 Why do you care?

01:11:57.540 You should have given it to BuzzFeed.

01:11:59.280 It would have been printed on the front page.

01:12:01.500 Yeah, yeah.

01:12:02.000 So now she's laughing.

01:12:03.480 I'm laughing.

01:12:04.220 And I said, listen, there's one thing I definitely would never do with Donald Trump.

01:12:08.320 I don't dislike him.

01:12:09.280 But I would never have a mirage of trouble with Donald Trump. 1.00

01:12:13.120 That's the shit you are. 1.00

01:12:14.560 So. 1.00

01:12:15.620 My head.

01:12:16.880 Wait, can I just let me pause this right now?

01:12:19.740 Just have a bit of breaking news at this moment.

01:12:23.340 You just mentioned him.

01:12:24.400 Uh, the movie Godfather and Sonny Corleone.

01:12:28.380 James Kahn was the actor, played that role, just died.

01:12:32.000 Just got that news in.

01:12:33.840 Oh, James Kahn?

01:12:35.180 James Kahn just died.

01:12:37.020 Wow.

01:12:37.460 So sad.

01:12:38.480 Yeah.

01:12:39.060 What an icon.

01:12:40.500 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:12:41.740 Do you know he was hooked?

01:12:43.860 What do you mean?

01:12:44.460 He was in the mob.

01:12:46.780 What?

01:12:48.260 James Kahn was, it was hooked in with the mob.

01:12:51.220 That's the guy who played Sonny, right?

01:12:53.620 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:12:54.940 What do you mean?

01:12:55.520 I was there.

01:12:55.860 I was there when he came down and asked permission to be in that movie.

01:12:59.460 I was there with Carmine Persico.

01:13:02.060 Joe Colombo gave him the role.

01:13:03.500 Who did he ask permission of?

01:13:05.220 To be in the movie.

01:13:06.780 But who, who is he seeking?

01:13:07.860 Whose permission was he seeking?

01:13:09.860 Joe Colombo's.

01:13:10.700 And he came to Carmine Persico because there was a guy, Andrew Mush, who was friendly with him.

01:13:17.320 Matter of fact, Andrew Mush, who was a captain in the Colombo family, became godfather, his kid, or vice versa.

01:13:27.380 They were real tight all their lives.

01:13:30.520 So he was connected with the Colombo family.

01:13:34.380 Wow.

01:13:34.640 So at some point in his, when he was being cast for the godfather, you're saying he had this connection?

01:13:40.620 Yes.

01:13:41.580 Wow.

01:13:41.960 Yes.

01:13:42.680 I was there when he came down and they, you know, they said he's an actor, he's coming down.

01:13:47.600 And they played the part.

01:13:49.020 They brought him over to Carmine to ask permission.

01:13:51.200 And you, you witnessed him asking for the permission?

01:13:53.640 No, absolutely.

01:13:54.620 I was there.

01:13:55.700 What did he say?

01:13:57.140 No, he asked for permission.

01:13:58.720 Carmine told him, I'll talk to Joe Colombo.

01:14:01.000 I'll make this happen.

01:14:02.320 Don't worry about it.

01:14:03.340 What he did is he put him in Andrew Mush's hands tight.

01:14:09.800 You know what I mean?

01:14:10.680 He might've got the part anyway, but they played this whole little game with him, but

01:14:14.680 he, they became super close.

01:14:16.720 They became, one became the godfather, one of the kids.

01:14:20.520 And you can look that all up.

01:14:21.960 You can, you can see that.

01:14:23.680 But I was there.

01:14:24.360 I'm confused because James Caan was a successful actor.

01:14:26.540 I think I'm, I don't have his whole bio in front of me prior to the, the godfather.

01:14:32.320 So are you saying he was young?

01:14:34.500 He was young.

01:14:35.160 I don't think he was a major actor.

01:14:36.840 He could have been an actor.

01:14:37.880 Oh, of course he was an actor, but I don't think.

01:14:39.980 But he wasn't in the mob.

01:14:40.880 Like you were in the mob.

01:14:41.920 You're saying ties, like connections.

01:14:44.200 What?

01:14:44.620 Friends?

01:14:45.140 What does it mean?

01:14:46.300 Yeah.

01:14:46.700 It's, it's an associate.

01:14:49.360 It's an associate of the mob.

01:14:51.860 In other words, he's on record now with the mafia as an associate.

01:14:56.100 He's not a MAV member.

01:14:57.400 He's not one of us, but he's an associate of the Columbia family.

01:15:01.400 Just like Sinatra was.

01:15:03.480 He was too.

01:15:04.500 You say, I mean, of course there's been rumors about this for years, but you're saying

01:15:07.400 that they're true. 0.99

01:15:08.860 You know, when we took over John Gotti and me and John Gotti was a fucking egomaniac and 0.99

01:15:14.580 he was in a restaurant. 0.98

01:15:16.400 Sinatra had come in and he didn't say nothing to John.

01:15:20.680 He was going to buy him a bottle of wine or something.

01:15:23.740 John refused it.

01:15:24.720 And he sent this guy, Joe Watts over to Sinatra and tell him, whenever you come in a restaurant,

01:15:31.080 you see John Gotti, you come over and you kiss his hand.

01:15:35.020 Oh boy.

01:15:35.760 And now Sinatra went to where he's supposed to go.

01:15:38.860 To the Genovese family.

01:15:40.080 Cause that's where he was for years.

01:15:41.740 This guy, Frankie blue eyes and chin gigante.

01:15:45.520 I was there when he got in touch with us and told John, you know, bro, he's always been

01:15:51.620 with us.

01:15:53.080 What do you send somebody over to abuse him? 0.99

01:15:55.060 He does a lot of favors.

01:15:56.360 It's not us, but he's my dog, bro.

01:15:59.240 If you need a favor, he'll do it.

01:16:01.580 Don't go sending people over and threaten them in front of people.

01:16:04.400 And so, I mean, how much more, I mean, and I always knew it, but I'm giving you that example

01:16:11.660 where he was abused by this Joe Watts on John's orders.

01:16:17.000 And, uh, the Genovese family came right out of the woodwork and protected him.

01:16:22.300 And I should say, I mean, with respect to James Kahn, of course, we haven't had the chance

01:16:26.480 to reach out to anybody in his camp and ask these questions.

01:16:28.860 Uh, and they're quite clearly going to be in mourning today.

01:16:32.380 Uh, Andrew, ask for Andrew Russo.

01:16:35.420 They used to call him Andrew Bush.

01:16:37.640 If he's related to him.

01:16:39.440 Okay.

01:16:40.700 Um, I will say I knew James Kahn just a bit personally through a mutual friend and he was

01:16:45.800 an absolute gentleman and completely kind and lovely.

01:16:49.280 Yeah.

01:16:49.780 And I'm not saying anything bad about him.

01:16:51.300 No, no, I know.

01:16:51.860 I know you're not.

01:16:52.420 No, no, I know.

01:16:52.920 I just don't, I feel uncomfortable.

01:16:54.160 Uh, if none of this is true, disparaging him on the day of his death.

01:16:57.720 And so, and I haven't had the chance to check it out myself.

01:16:59.740 So with respect to you, not, not saying it isn't just don't know.

01:17:02.660 I want to make that clear to the audience.

01:17:04.380 Um, but, but that's unfortunate.

01:17:06.460 Uh, it's sad to have lost him.

01:17:07.860 His work in the Godfather earned him an Academy Award nomination, a Golden Globe nomination.

01:17:11.980 And of course, a place in all of our hearts because he was this fire brand who was tortured.

01:17:18.020 And I think just did such a brilliant job of portraying what one might go through.

01:17:22.620 If one were born into such a family, or in your case, willingly joined, quote, the family.

01:17:29.000 Um, before we leave that subject, did your wife, I always wonder about the wives. 1.00

01:17:34.700 Like, did your wife know everything?

01:17:37.600 I know she knew you were in the mafia, but did she know, you know, about murders?

01:17:42.000 Did she know all that?

01:17:43.580 No, absolutely not.

01:17:45.320 I never told my wife anything about the mafia.

01:17:49.240 And it was my way of protecting her.

01:17:51.340 She always, in other words, in my opinion, could turn around.

01:17:54.500 If she was ever questioned by the feds or anybody, she could say, I don't know, legitimately.

01:17:59.960 Not as, I'm not going to give her information, especially about murders, something like that.

01:18:04.260 I'd have to be out of my mind to do something like that.

01:18:07.300 But she knew I was in the mafia.

01:18:09.140 Um, but she didn't know any of that, either of my kids.

01:18:13.480 I was a family man.

01:18:15.080 I lived two lives.

01:18:17.140 At home, I was a father, a husband.

01:18:20.560 When I made money, I bought a farm.

01:18:22.580 Uh, we put horses on the farm.

01:18:25.580 We, it was a family life.

01:18:27.900 When I drove to that place, I left the mafia behind me.

01:18:32.080 When I got off the highway, it was in Jersey, Cream Ridge, New Jersey.

01:18:36.160 And smelt, uh, the trees, the grass.

01:18:39.360 It was, I was like, it was, I was like a different person.

01:18:42.140 Yeah, that's the farm.

01:18:42.960 Hmm.

01:18:44.520 Yeah.

01:18:44.820 Wow.

01:18:45.400 And, and, and it was, it was a 30 acre farm.

01:18:48.280 We turned it into a horse farm.

01:18:49.940 We lived great times in there, fun holidays, 4th of July.

01:18:54.580 So when I left, I left on a Friday, took off, usually staying there on a Saturday and Sunday

01:19:00.380 with my family.

01:19:01.720 And we did all great things.

01:19:03.700 When the FBI went up to Cream Ridge, New Jersey, they went to every restaurant, everywhere I went,

01:19:10.220 asking people, you know, about me.

01:19:12.100 And not one, they, they, that not one person said anything negative.

01:19:17.420 When I sold it, there was a woman who was, uh, she sold it.

01:19:22.000 She was, uh, she asked me for a cart where the kids sit on it and they could drive it. 0.97

01:19:27.420 So I had said that, uh, you know, I'm not going to sell it.

01:19:30.480 It's part of the farm.

01:19:32.240 And, um, when I did sell it, I told them that cart isn't for sale.

01:19:38.340 And I gave it to the woman.

01:19:39.920 She told the feds.

01:19:42.100 That's how he dealt with me.

01:19:43.460 Never offered me money under the table or doing anything, but he gave me this cart for

01:19:48.600 my grandchildren.

01:19:50.400 And, uh, a matter of fact, as soon as I'm done with this conversation, I'm going to get

01:19:54.540 in touch with him.

01:19:55.500 And I'm going to tell him that yous are here asking me questions.

01:19:58.260 So I, I was a different animal there.

01:20:00.580 Yeah, well, no, I mean, your, your kids talk about you in this way.

01:20:04.500 It's part of what makes you fascinating, uh, the dichotomy between your professional life

01:20:09.820 and your home life.

01:20:11.440 Uh, and up next in our last segment together, I want to get into turning on Gotti, going

01:20:17.380 into witness protection and your job that, that you did while, while that happened, plastic

01:20:22.760 surgery, and then how you wound up back in prison and then free again.

01:20:27.940 Okay.

01:20:28.360 So don't miss that.

01:20:29.560 Stay with us for one more segment.

01:20:31.040 As Sammy, the bold Gravano continues with us right after this quick break.

01:20:33.780 Now streaming on Paramount+.

01:20:36.280 Someone is trying to frame us.

01:20:39.200 Until our names are cleared.

01:20:41.820 We're fugitives from Interpol.

01:20:43.580 Like Bonnie and Clyde with better snacks.

01:20:47.000 Espionage.

01:20:47.660 You're still as good a shot as you used to be.

01:20:50.700 Better.

01:20:51.480 Is there love language.

01:20:52.960 We like to walk that fine line between techno thriller and romantic comedy.

01:20:58.260 We make up our own rules.

01:21:00.020 NCIS Tony and Ziva.

01:21:01.760 Now streaming on Paramount+.

01:21:03.500 My team's been looking into the James Caan thing during the break and says, indeed,

01:21:12.300 Andy Mush Russo, part of the Colombo crime family, was a longtime friend of James Caan.

01:21:20.080 And at one point, James Caan did indeed offer to post Mush's bail money when he was accused

01:21:24.640 of a crime.

01:21:25.820 And this Andy Mush Russo was indeed godfather to one of James Caan's children.

01:21:30.780 So to be continued on that front, there were there have been reports that Caan had this

01:21:36.440 connection, though I've never heard it directly from somebody who was actually in the mob.

01:21:40.480 So we've gone to a different place.

01:21:42.460 OK, Sammy, you wind up you and John Gotti wind up running the Gambino crime family, the Genovese

01:21:49.540 crime family.

01:21:50.580 And and John Gotti's mob boss.

01:21:53.400 He's he's the boss of the family.

01:21:54.740 You become under boss.

01:21:56.300 And you guys for years and years were very tight, very tight.

01:21:59.280 And then as I understand it, and as we said in the intro, things went downhill and I don't

01:22:04.340 want to spend too much time has been talked about a lot, but they went downhill.

01:22:07.560 You were both in jail together.

01:22:09.100 You thought he was going to turn on you.

01:22:11.160 And and and I know you say that's why you turned on him.

01:22:14.680 You went to those two agents who were following you around all the time and said, let's talk

01:22:17.620 about John Gotti. 1.00

01:22:19.240 Now, his defenders say bullshit. 1.00

01:22:21.600 They're like, that's Sammy trying to cover his own butt. 1.00

01:22:24.100 So he doesn't look like a rat. 0.97

01:22:25.320 John Gotti wasn't going to turn on Sammy and they they basically just call BS on the

01:22:32.240 whole story.

01:22:32.820 So what do you want to say about that?

01:22:35.880 Right.

01:22:36.500 I mean, I mean, I've heard that they said there's millions of hours of tapes.

01:22:40.460 It wasn't millions of hours of tapes.

01:22:42.280 There was.

01:22:43.100 But up in the apartment, there was a small amount of tapes.

01:22:50.700 Um, he four or five, it was up there for months, but we didn't use the apartment.

01:22:57.180 A lot of times when we did use the apartment, we didn't talk about anything.

01:23:01.080 There was a couple of times that I wasn't in the apartment and he was sitting with Frank

01:23:08.760 Gilles Casio. 0.99

01:23:09.460 Now, when people talk about it was all bullshit, I mean, it's made up. 0.99

01:23:17.340 There's agents, New York State Organized Crime Task Force that heard these tapes, listened 0.99

01:23:25.260 to the tapes and knew exactly what was going on.

01:23:28.580 But I'm going to give you one story that's going to blow all that other stuff away.

01:23:33.760 The judge got rid of our lawyers, Jerry Shargell and Bruce Cutler, and we had to get new lawyers.

01:23:43.780 One of the lawyers that we brought in did an interview, and you could check this out in

01:23:49.480 an article with Jerry Capici.

01:23:51.540 He did an interview with Jerry Capici and told him this.

01:23:56.220 I was brought in to be the lawyer for John.

01:23:59.380 And he told John, I was in that meeting, it was a lawyer's meeting.

01:24:04.400 He said to John, you can't beat this case.

01:24:10.240 Your tapes are devastating.

01:24:12.200 The four, five, six tapes out of all the rest of them are devastating.

01:24:18.960 I could try to work out a plea agreement.

01:24:22.460 And John said, no, I'm going to beat the case.

01:24:27.100 I got a secret weapon.

01:24:29.840 So Bruce Cutler, I mean, Bruce Cutler, what did I just say?

01:24:35.220 His name was.

01:24:38.940 That big lawyer.

01:24:41.740 But anyway, he said, well, tell me your secret weapon.

01:24:47.760 How are you going to beat this case?

01:24:49.520 And he says, I'm going to throw Sammy and Frankie under the bus and I'm going to go free.

01:24:55.900 We all laughed.

01:24:58.280 Sounded like a joke.

01:25:04.040 The lawyer never came back.

01:25:06.360 When he did the interview with Jerry Capici, he told him that story.

01:25:13.920 He says, I never went back because I didn't want any part of that strategy.

01:25:18.680 But John continued with that strategy because when he was in the apartment with those tapes, he had planned to kill me.

01:25:31.200 And he you can't just kill an underboss who's very powerful, big money earner.

01:25:37.140 The whole family likes you. 0.99

01:25:39.720 If you can kill him, you shake the whole family. 1.00

01:25:42.900 If you can kill him, you can kill all of us. 1.00

01:25:46.080 There's a guy who's the most loyal guy to you. 1.00

01:25:49.100 He's rigging your cases.

01:25:51.220 He's killing people for you.

01:25:53.060 If you could do that. 0.97

01:25:55.300 So.

01:25:58.020 All of the things he was telling Frankie to talk about to the captains to prepare. 0.94

01:26:05.280 Sammy's killing his partners.

01:26:07.900 He's killing union guys and taking over the unions. 1.00

01:26:11.340 He wanted that to go out so that when he kills me. 0.99

01:26:15.280 He would have justification. 0.93

01:26:17.820 I that is on those tapes.

01:26:19.660 We've we looked into what he John Gotti was saying on those tapes.

01:26:22.880 And indeed, it's very negative about you and your alleged behaviors.

01:26:26.320 So I see it.

01:26:27.220 I and forgive me for skipping past some of this.

01:26:29.700 But, you know, this has been out there.

01:26:31.860 So you wind up saying you're going to cross me.

01:26:34.600 I'm going to I'm going to cross you first and you'll wind up going to jail, which he did for the rest of his life.

01:26:39.800 You got a good deal.

01:26:41.360 You're a sweetheart deal where you're supposed to go away for five years.

01:26:44.700 You really only had to serve less than one year because you'd already served for prior to.

01:26:49.540 You know, you're a little bit off.

01:26:53.340 I took a plea with the thing, not for five years.

01:26:57.060 I took a 20 year plea.

01:26:59.320 I got sentenced to five years because of the cooperation that I did.

01:27:04.880 I took a plea for 20 years.

01:27:07.300 Got it.

01:27:08.180 And I and I didn't do a year.

01:27:11.540 I did over four years.

01:27:14.980 You got some good time off of the five.

01:27:16.980 So I did almost five when I got sentenced.

01:27:20.020 I had seven months to go on on what I got.

01:27:25.420 It's immaterial.

01:27:26.440 The point is, it wasn't a lot of jail time for, you know, the feds.

01:27:29.900 Absolutely.

01:27:30.540 Yeah.

01:27:30.660 For what you did.

01:27:31.800 So the you the deal is you're going to go into witness protection, as we mentioned at the top of the show for a while.

01:27:37.600 And can you just tell us because I read that you were you did something with pools.

01:27:42.700 Where do they send you and what was the job?

01:27:45.340 And did you actually run around, like looking after people's pools for a year or two or selling people's pools?

01:27:50.820 How did that go?

01:27:52.020 Well, when I first got out, I went in the witness protection program for eight months.

01:27:56.900 I get I promised them I would do one year.

01:28:00.000 They were begging me to go in the program.

01:28:02.340 I didn't want to go in.

01:28:03.640 I had plenty of money.

01:28:04.940 They said, you're going to make the government look horrible.

01:28:08.760 Come on.

01:28:09.140 You've got a great deal.

01:28:10.260 Five year deal.

01:28:11.820 Give us something.

01:28:13.260 Go in the program for a while.

01:28:14.660 I gave them a year.

01:28:16.160 I only wound up doing eight months because I met a woman there. 0.89

01:28:21.340 I was talking to and hanging with a little bit.

01:28:24.560 And.

01:28:26.980 She recognized who I was and they came back in.

01:28:31.100 They said, we're going to take you and move you to another state. 0.93

01:28:35.100 We're going to start from scratch.

01:28:36.620 And I said, no, I promise you a year.

01:28:38.980 I'm in eight months.

01:28:39.820 I'm not doing it.

01:28:41.720 They said, you have to do it.

01:28:43.120 That's the rules.

01:28:44.620 But like while you were doing it, while you I'm interested in your life, while you were

01:28:48.300 doing it, like how does a guy who's in the mob doing the stuff you're doing go to like

01:28:53.360 looking after somebody's pool and claiming that you have this other name and this fake

01:28:58.200 background?

01:28:59.180 You know what?

01:29:00.220 What was that like?

01:29:00.840 No, I wasn't.

01:29:01.440 I wasn't doing it while I was in the program and I changed my name when I left the program

01:29:07.500 in eight months.

01:29:08.340 I changed my name back to Salvatore Guilherme.

01:29:11.580 So I wasn't walking around with the name.

01:29:13.520 Am I wrong?

01:29:13.980 I feel like you're you don't like the fact that you were in this program at all.

01:29:17.480 Is that because it violates like the mob code?

01:29:19.620 Is it it makes you sound?

01:29:20.780 No, no, no, no.

01:29:21.880 I don't want to be in it.

01:29:23.300 What am I going to do that?

01:29:24.140 You can't have any contact with your family or friends or there's all kinds of rules.

01:29:30.260 I just did five years in prison.

01:29:31.860 I'm not going to live by a whole bunch of set of rules.

01:29:34.620 So I gave them that one year.

01:29:37.000 You could bounce me around, change my name, do what you want with me, and then I'm done

01:29:41.180 with you.

01:29:42.080 I'm out of prison.

01:29:43.360 So I didn't want to stay with these rules.

01:29:45.980 Did you go to people's cocktail parties?

01:29:47.820 You go to like the barbecue of the neighbor next door and say, what was the fake name again?

01:29:51.620 I can't remember the fake name.

01:29:53.100 Jimmy Moran.

01:29:54.580 Did you did you say like, hey, Jimmy Moran and like, come on over.

01:29:57.520 We'll watch the Super Bowl together.

01:29:58.600 Like, how did it go?

01:29:59.920 No, no, no.

01:30:00.580 I was just running around.

01:30:01.940 I was 55 years old.

01:30:03.740 I think I was or 50 something years old.

01:30:06.840 And I was there.

01:30:08.940 I was it was in a college town.

01:30:11.220 I wound up in Colorado and it was Boulder, Colorado.

01:30:16.120 It's a college town.

01:30:17.520 And I was hanging out there.

01:30:19.600 I met a couple of people and I played chess.

01:30:23.580 I was with some people.

01:30:25.040 I'm a chess player and friendly like that.

01:30:28.380 But no, it wasn't party time.

01:30:30.120 It was I was I was it was like doing time on the outside.

01:30:34.560 I wanted to get done with the witness protection program and go home.

01:30:37.600 And when I got done, I did that.

01:30:41.340 Sorry, I'm condensed in my time.

01:30:43.380 So I just want to get in the last thing.

01:30:44.960 So you go back to your real name and your life.

01:30:47.320 And we talked earlier about whether that was scary in terms of like people are going to

01:30:50.820 come get me.

01:30:51.400 And sure enough, some tried and you wind up like to me.

01:30:56.320 It's just so like, you know, I get it because if you're in a life of crime, maybe it's hard

01:31:00.320 to get out.

01:31:00.740 But you wind up dealing drugs and going back to prison for 20 years, almost 20 years.

01:31:09.200 How did you let that happen?

01:31:11.420 How like how did that happen?

01:31:14.200 Now, on that one subject, not one subject, but that's exactly what happened.

01:31:19.220 I wasn't dealing drugs.

01:31:20.620 It was ecstasy, which they consider a drug.

01:31:25.060 It's and it was that that's all it was.

01:31:28.460 It was no heroin.

01:31:29.880 It was not cocaine.

01:31:31.380 It was nothing crack. 1.00

01:31:32.860 It was ecstasy, which is a bullshit drug. 0.99

01:31:36.080 They put it on a level. 0.99

01:31:37.600 But anyway, I didn't even do that.

01:31:40.140 There's a thing coming out, a documentary that we're working on.

01:31:44.400 And me, my daughter, my son, and I'm tied up on the contract with that documentary that's

01:31:51.520 going to talk about that little part of my life.

01:31:54.040 So I don't think I could talk about that or I'll get my head handed to me because I'm

01:31:59.020 in contract with it now.

01:32:00.420 Oh, that's fine.

01:32:00.880 That's fine.

01:32:01.260 But so we'll stay tuned to wait for your your longer take on that.

01:32:05.780 But you get out of jail in twenty seventeen and now what?

01:32:10.740 Right.

01:32:10.960 So now how old are you now?

01:32:13.780 Seventy seven, seventy seven years old.

01:32:16.480 You and your wife divorced, but it sounds like she's still in your life and kind of a

01:32:20.340 business partner now.

01:32:21.360 We talked about your daughter, Karen.

01:32:22.820 You have a son as well.

01:32:24.440 So, you know, what next?

01:32:26.340 What what do you do with the time you have left?

01:32:28.320 Well, she's not my business.

01:32:31.000 She's not my business.

01:32:32.280 She's not my business partner. 1.00

01:32:34.020 I'm a bitch. 1.00

01:32:34.840 I work for her. 1.00

01:32:36.160 She owns the company.

01:32:37.800 She she handles my my rights. 0.98

01:32:40.760 And I work for her.

01:32:42.320 I do my podcast.

01:32:43.720 I do some other things and I do some things on my own.

01:32:46.600 So we're not really partners, but we're we're close.

01:32:51.720 We have kids, grandchildren.

01:32:54.100 We've been divorced since nineteen ninety one.

01:32:57.760 And so but we are close and I still got I'm still close with my kids, my grandchildren.

01:33:05.600 And I do this.

01:33:07.020 I couldn't find a better thing to do in retirement.

01:33:09.980 I did.

01:33:11.540 I'm never going to go back to crime.

01:33:13.400 I'm never going to do anything like that again.

01:33:15.340 So I enjoy the social media stuff that I'm doing.

01:33:20.360 I mean, there's contract about the story of my life at that time with the ecstasy and

01:33:26.660 all that baloney.

01:33:28.520 And is that the Salvatore?

01:33:30.120 Is that the Salvatore?

01:33:31.320 Is that or is that a different project?

01:33:32.780 Because I know you're no, that's you've got your own short film series called The Salvatore

01:33:36.200 that's coming out.

01:33:37.500 Yes.

01:33:37.880 The Salvatore.

01:33:39.500 It's based on a true story, but it's not a true story.

01:33:44.340 It's fiction, but it's me.

01:33:47.380 It's here's what it is.

01:33:49.520 I get out of prison in 2017.

01:33:53.700 I'm contacted by the FBI.

01:33:56.640 My wife and children were in the program, supposedly, and they're all killed.

01:34:01.200 And the FBI wants me to go after and follow some serial killer.

01:34:07.860 And I agree to it.

01:34:09.840 I don't want to do it at first.

01:34:11.500 And they show me a picture of dead woman and kids.

01:34:14.900 And I agree to go after him.

01:34:18.240 Now, I'm going to say this here, but I'm not even supposed to be saying these things.

01:34:23.400 But what happens is, is that these FBI guys got money from the mob and they gave this serial

01:34:35.200 killer my wife and kids address and he was supposed to go kill them. 0.85

01:34:41.960 So they get the money. 0.99

01:34:43.300 They break the link and they got me.

01:34:47.000 Now they got me going after him.

01:34:49.220 Sounds a little confusing, but me going after him.

01:34:51.980 No, I get it.

01:34:53.000 It's a it's sort of a crime drama.

01:34:56.640 So this is going to come out on Sammy on his YouTube channel.

01:35:00.220 So if you're not subscribed, you can see it there by doing so.

01:35:04.340 In the in the minute we have left, rounding back to the discussion we had on faith and

01:35:09.520 God at the top of the show.

01:35:11.300 What do you make of it?

01:35:12.300 A lot of a lot of folks and they get to be 77 years old, start thinking about the afterlife

01:35:16.400 and what what possibly awaits and forgiveness and all of that.

01:35:20.480 So how do you see what's next for you?

01:35:24.300 You know, meeting a maker, making amends, asking for grace, for forgiveness.

01:35:30.720 Is any of that important to you?

01:35:33.220 Um, it's important to, you know, what's going to happen.

01:35:39.840 I mean, I really don't believe that you go anywhere.

01:35:43.180 I'll be honest with you.

01:35:44.200 I don't think you go anywhere.

01:35:45.820 But if I go anywhere, I'm going to go share there.

01:35:48.600 I'll talk to him and I'll talk to.

01:35:51.800 I'm not going to ask for forgiveness.

01:35:53.280 If you made me, then you made me, you could have stopped me anytime you want.

01:35:58.900 I'm not going to, you made me what I am.

01:36:01.220 I'm a lion.

01:36:01.880 You made me that.

01:36:03.540 So if you wanted to stop me, you could stop me anytime you want.

01:36:06.920 I'm not going to ask for forgiveness.

01:36:08.340 I did what I did in an honorable way.

01:36:12.920 If you could call it that in my eyes, uh, I never really took advantage of people.

01:36:21.020 I never cheated.

01:36:21.760 I never lied.

01:36:22.440 I never bullshitted people to, to an extent, except for the government, because of course

01:36:26.880 I couldn't tell them the truth and I couldn't tell my family the truth of things I was doing.

01:36:30.680 But I think that's understandable and, um, I really, uh, I'm not looking for forgiveness

01:36:39.280 of what I did and what that would mean.

01:36:42.800 This is taught in the church. 0.98

01:36:44.680 If you don't believe this, you're going to hell. 1.00

01:36:47.300 I don't believe in all that bullshit. 1.00

01:36:49.220 I really don't. 1.00

01:36:50.680 If you don't believe what I say, you're going to hell.

01:36:53.740 If you don't tell, I don't, I don't believe any of that.

01:36:56.660 So I believe there is a God.

01:36:58.540 I look up at the sky, do artwork.

01:37:00.680 I learned how to do artwork in prison.

01:37:02.360 I look up at the sky who could do that.

01:37:04.920 What artists in the world could do that?

01:37:07.300 It's gotta be a God life.

01:37:09.980 You see kids, you see animals, you see things.

01:37:13.160 Animals kill each other.

01:37:14.460 So I don't believe in the stuff they tell us in religion.

01:37:19.800 You know, I got it.

01:37:21.020 I think God is fair.

01:37:23.260 He's honorable if he's there.

01:37:26.980 And I don't think I'll have too much of a problem. 0.99

01:37:29.840 I think people bullshit about religion. 0.99

01:37:32.060 I think they'll have more of a problem than I will. 0.99

01:37:34.720 I gotta leave it at that because we're coming up against a hard break.

01:37:37.380 But I agree with you that God is fair and he is honorable.

01:37:41.600 And I believe he will have the last say.

01:37:44.700 Sammy the Bull Gravano, thank you so much for telling your story.

01:37:49.280 And as I say, for what the mob says, giving testimony that led to, in their view,

01:37:53.160 what the FBI has said, led to the demise of organized crime in New York.

01:37:58.520 Amazing.

01:37:59.820 My God, what just happened?

01:38:03.120 What just happened in that last two hours?

01:38:05.720 My team and I were just talking about it.

01:38:07.460 Just like went to a lot of places.

01:38:09.480 I did not expect the thing about James Caan.

01:38:13.960 But, you know, there's something to be learned there because we have been so fascinated by the mob in this country.

01:38:20.520 So fascinated by the mob.

01:38:21.820 And it is interesting to listen to somebody who was in it at the highest level.

01:38:25.740 Talk about how it works and what the ethical code actually looks like.

01:38:30.820 Right?

01:38:31.020 Like some of that stuff at the end, I behaved honorably.

01:38:34.100 That's how he sees it.

01:38:36.580 How he believes in God, but doesn't think that there will be any judgment for him because he thinks God made him.

01:38:43.640 The way God made me alive.

01:38:44.860 I mean, that stuff was very eye-opening to me in terms of how his brain works and how people can live a life like this.

01:38:53.260 How could you live a life where you kill 19 people?

01:38:56.860 I understand.

01:38:58.000 He says they agreed to live by the same code.

01:38:59.980 But, you know, the rest of us who live by a very different code have trouble understanding any of this.

01:39:06.800 And it's an organization that's had its tentacles in American society for 100 plus years.

01:39:13.060 Right?

01:39:13.580 So it's like, anyway, there's a lot to be learned.

01:39:16.060 And our fascination with this group remains.

01:39:18.700 It may be dwindling.

01:39:20.140 It's not done in New York, but it's certainly not what it used to be.

01:39:24.220 But it's still out there.

01:39:25.600 And, you know, it gets glorified in virtually every Hollywood movie still to this day.

01:39:28.740 So, I don't know.

01:39:31.780 I enjoyed the exchange.

01:39:33.460 And I enjoyed listening to, you know, his take on it.

01:39:35.960 I obviously disagreed with a lot of his ethical conclusions, as I'm sure you did.

01:39:40.020 But I learned.

01:39:41.660 I learned a little bit.

01:39:42.940 And I hope you did, too.

01:39:44.980 Anyway, thanks for joining us today.

01:39:47.060 Tomorrow, we've got Greg Lukianoff.

01:39:49.240 He runs FIRE.

01:39:50.780 He used to call this organization Foundation for Individual Rights in Education.

01:39:54.620 Now, and this is good news, he's expanded it.

01:39:58.780 And its new name is the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression.

01:40:02.700 So he's going beyond the craziness on college campuses.

01:40:06.880 And that's good, because we need Greg.

01:40:08.320 He's used to fighting these fights in court and often wins them.

01:40:12.660 A lot to get to.

01:40:13.660 Don't forget to download the show in the meantime.

01:40:15.280 The Megyn Kelly Show on Apple, Pandora, Spotify, and Stitcher.

01:40:18.020 Also at YouTube.com slash Megyn Kelly.

01:40:20.280 Thank you for listening.

01:40:21.640 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. 0.94

01:40:26.920 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

01:40:51.640 Espionage?

01:40:52.520 You still as good a shot as you used to be?

01:40:55.700 Better.

01:40:56.360 Is there love language?

01:40:57.820 We like to walk that fine line between techno-thriller and romantic comedy.

01:41:03.120 We make up our own rules.

01:41:04.900 NCIS Tony and Ziva.

01:41:06.620 Now streaming on Paramount+.

The Megyn Kelly Show - July 07, 2022

The Mafia Code, Turning on the Mob, and Life After Prison, with ＂Sammy the Bull＂ Gravano ｜ Ep. 352

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