The Megyn Kelly Show - The Reality of Biology, and Sussmann Found NOT Guilty, with Andrew Sullivan and Robert Gouveia ｜ Ep. 332

00:00:00.520 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:11.380 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. I hope you all had a nice Memorial Day weekend, spending time with your family, with your friends, and hopefully taking some time to remember those who sacrificed for our country and the freedoms we hold so dearly.

00:00:27.000 I spent a long time talking about it with my kids, trying to get them to understand what it means, what Memorial Day means, and who we're honoring, and why we're so lucky to live in this country.

00:00:37.780 Didn't come easy and didn't come for free. And by the way, on that subject, it's always a busy weekend for everyone, so if you missed our Friday interview with Medal of Honor recipient Dakota Meyer, I promise you it is well worth your time.

00:00:52.560 I had so many friends come to me this weekend. We went to the Jersey Shore and say that they listened to it on their ride down there or what have you.

00:01:01.500 And he's just an incredible person with a spectacular story that just will move you to all sorts of places.

00:01:09.580 So if you have a good drive ahead of you, we went long on that one. We played a version live on Sirius, but the podcast was a little longer because we didn't want to cut him short.

00:01:18.260 But listen to it. Cue it up. Dakota Meyer from this past Friday.

00:01:23.040 OK, so now we are on Monday and at this hour, we're waiting for verdicts in two big court cases.

00:01:30.900 And I wonder which one you think is the bigger court case. I mean, I can tell you this weekend where I went, nobody was talking about anything other than Amber Heard and Johnny Depp.

00:01:38.980 But my one friend who's more conservative said, I've been following it at all. I've been following the trial of Michael Sussman.

00:01:45.160 So it really kind of depends. I've been following both because I'm in the news biz.

00:01:49.680 And I have to say that that Sussman verdict could come down at any minute and has much larger implications for for politics, at least.

00:01:57.900 And you could argue the country than Amber and Johnny, though that one has larger cultural implications to Sussman is the former Hillary Clinton campaign lawyer accused of walking into the FBI shortly before the 2016 election and trying to say, hey, you know, just as a concerned citizen, I want to let you know that something bad is happening.

00:02:19.580 We appear to have unearthed the connection between this Russia bank, Alpha Bank and Trump.

00:02:25.280 It's not good. You guys should look into it.

00:02:27.900 Same time, they dropped that same oppo research, which had been totally manufactured to The New York Times.

00:02:34.560 And they were trying to get The Times to publish it.

00:02:37.240 And they thought they'd get a better shot at that if they could get the FBI to investigate it.

00:02:42.260 And in the end, the only one they got to bite was Slate, that left wing, totally uncredible rag that said, oh, we'd love to run with this.

00:02:51.740 We would love to do it. Sure. They're embarrassed.

00:02:54.220 So there was nothing to the story.

00:02:57.160 But now there's an attempt at accountability to the guy who tried to peddle it to the FBI without disclosing he was there on behalf of the Hillary Clinton campaign.

00:03:05.140 All right. It gets kind of complicated, but we've got a guy who's been neck deep in it.

00:03:08.220 He's going to he and I will walk through it with you so you can accurately understand where this is going as we are on verdict to watch.

00:03:14.840 The second verdict, as I mentioned, between Johnny Depp and Amber Heard, he sued her for defamation.

00:03:19.740 She's counterclaimed for the same. And that thing began with a bang and ended with one, too. 0.99

00:03:25.000 The closing arguments last week were amazing.

00:03:27.620 They were gripping.

00:03:29.200 They were. Oh, I'm just hearing Sussman verdicts in.

00:03:32.620 Look at that. As if on cue.

00:03:34.900 Not guilty.

00:03:36.480 Wow.

00:03:37.920 Not guilty.

00:03:39.020 And can I tell you not surprised just reading this article out of the Boston Herald by Howie Carr car talking about the jurors who made it onto that jury.

00:03:51.760 The judge was, I think, Barack Obama appointee whose wife is all tied up in Democrat firms involving Eric Holder.

00:04:00.320 And it's a who's who of Democrat administrations, Obama, Biden, Merrick Garland.

00:04:08.240 You go down the list, but that's the judge.

00:04:10.560 The jurors who are allowed on that jury openly said, I donated to Hillary Clinton.

00:04:15.300 I donated to AOC.

00:04:17.380 I absolutely can't.

00:04:18.240 There was one guy who was conservative, hates Trump.

00:04:19.940 He's a never Trumper.

00:04:21.060 And on and on it went.

00:04:22.900 So this was not a jury pool that was in any way favorable to the prosecution.

00:04:26.980 And I'll tell you the other problem in that case.

00:04:28.340 But I'll tell you that and we'll get into this more later, but I'll tell you the other problem.

00:04:32.920 The FBI was the one who had been lied to and they were in on it.

00:04:37.500 The FBI loved the lie.

00:04:40.120 The FBI was like, great.

00:04:41.700 You got dirt on Trump.

00:04:42.700 We love it.

00:04:43.220 Let's open an investigation right away.

00:04:44.500 They didn't give a damn whether Sussman disclosed that he was there on behalf of Hillary or just said he was a concerned citizen.

00:04:51.880 Only John Durham, the special prosecutor after the fact, cared about that.

00:04:55.600 The FBI didn't give two shits about that.

00:04:57.320 They were like, yes, let's get him.

00:05:00.620 And the FBI has already had one guy convicted, an FBI attorney for wrongfully trying to get gin up a case against Carter Page.

00:05:09.460 And they had one other guy who he testified on the stand.

00:05:13.600 He's under investigation right now for withholding information that would have undermined the Russia Trump narrative.

00:05:20.760 So the FBI is not exactly a sympathetic, a sympathetic victim here, if you will.

00:05:27.820 And I'm using that term, that quote in quotes, that term in quotes, victim.

00:05:33.000 Anyway, we'll get into all of this in just one second.

00:05:35.220 But we're going to kick it off today in Uvalde, Texas, where there's disturbing new information about the shooter's actions leading up to that awful day.

00:05:44.020 And indeed, now we know there were more warning signs that it seemed that no one cared to flag.

00:05:50.360 All right.

00:05:50.560 So we're going to get into all that.

00:05:51.600 And by the way, new developments today into the Supreme Court leaguer, the leaguer, the marshal, maybe getting a little closer to figuring out who it was.

00:06:00.640 So joining me now is Andrew Sullivan.

00:06:03.800 He's been on the program before.

00:06:05.240 He's the founding editor and co-owner of The Weekly Dish, a hugely successful newsletter on Substack and hosted the podcast The Dish Cast with Andrew Sullivan.

00:06:18.340 Andrew, welcome.

00:06:19.280 Great to have you here.

00:06:20.220 So I won't put you on the spot and make you discuss Sussman because we do have a lawyer coming on who's been following it very carefully.

00:06:26.460 Um, but I do want to talk about Uvalde, which is in the news very much.

00:06:32.600 I know you've written about it yourself and the absolutely dreadful developments that have come out of there about the police in action on the spot.

00:06:40.200 And it's not to say that the blame lies with the police.

00:06:42.400 The blame lies with the shooter 100 percent.

00:06:45.200 But what happened down there is absolutely extraordinary and it's unforgivable and it's painful to even discuss.

00:06:51.680 But it must be your thoughts.

00:06:53.420 Well, like you, I, I just, I, I almost don't know what to say when 19 children are gunned down.

00:07:03.020 It, it, every time I think about it, my heart sinks even lower.

00:07:07.980 And I think that kind of numbness, uh, was bad enough.

00:07:13.620 And then when you got the subsequent news that the cops seem to have completely bungled this and that those lives might have been saved.

00:07:23.180 And then you also see the story of this incredibly troubled, obviously pathological kid, bullied, isolated, angry, threatening, lots and lots and lots of red flags right there.

00:07:39.460 I, Megan, I, I don't know what to say.

00:07:43.740 I, I'm an immigrant to this country.

00:07:45.940 So the gun situation here is for me and for anybody outside the United States, uh, pretty hard to understand.

00:07:55.700 I mean, it's, you understand why, and this is, this is the only sort of Western developed country that for hundreds of years had a completely open frontier.

00:08:04.540 You, you, you, you can understand why with the second amendment that evolved, but then we're in a situation where the, the simple consequence of that is the massacre of children.

00:08:17.340 And that will happen again and again and again.

00:08:22.900 Uh, I honestly, I've given up.

00:08:26.300 I don't think there's anything to be done.

00:08:28.500 I've watched the politics of this and I don't, I feel, I don't feel strong.

00:08:34.100 I'm not one of these new immigrants think that America's gun laws are without reason or without defense or without historical roots, but I don't know how much longer our collective consciences.

00:08:47.400 Can allow something like an AR-15 in the hands of anyone, really, uh, a machine gun that was devastated.

00:08:58.220 These children's bodies to such an extent that the parents had to give DNA to recognize their children.

00:09:06.380 Uh, it is, it is unconscionable in any other place.

00:09:10.380 I don't disagree with your feeling of futility.

00:09:15.080 Um, but, and I'm not a huge gun person.

00:09:18.000 My audience knows like I'm, uh, it's a, it's an amendment.

00:09:21.240 It's a right.

00:09:22.100 I get that as a lawyer, but, um, I'm not like a gun advocate, a second amendment advocate.

00:09:27.720 However, every time I look into this, Andrew, it's not a machine gun and AR-15.

00:09:32.140 It's a semi-automatic rifle and it does the same amount of damage in the same amount of time as a semi-automatic handgun.

00:09:40.140 That is 85% of what gets purchased over the counter today in America.

00:09:44.300 I mean, it's, you go for self-protection and want to buy a gun, you're probably going to get like a Glock or a nine millimeter.

00:09:49.660 And when, every time you press, pull the trigger, uh, a bullet fires, that's what an AR-15 does too.

00:09:56.900 It's just looks scarier.

00:09:58.460 It just looks scarier.

00:09:59.300 But doesn't it have many more bullets?

00:10:01.420 No, this guy modified it or I think I'm pretty sure he modified it and the previous shooter modified it, but no, it can't fire faster or more bullets than, than a handgun.

00:10:12.820 So I know it looks like, I'm happy to say I don't know the difference, but that, but to me, that's the futility of the problem.

00:10:18.840 It kind of goes to your original point because, you know, we have 330 million people here and we have 400 million guns and we're not getting rid of them.

00:10:27.020 We, we are not, we're not doing what Canada just did today and said, we're going to have an assault weapons ban.

00:10:32.440 Kamala Harris said she wants one.

00:10:33.680 It's not happening.

00:10:34.440 And I love it because they said, well, Congress won't do anything.

00:10:36.860 Well, you guys control Congress.

00:10:39.060 We have a democratic president.

00:10:40.320 We have a democratic house.

00:10:41.360 We have a democratic Senate.

00:10:42.200 So don't make it sound like, oh, this inactive Congress, like your party is, does not have the will to do this because it's unpopular.

00:10:48.820 Cause guns are very popular in America.

00:10:50.980 And I knew you as you as a, as a native Brit, don't get that.

00:10:54.600 I mean, I just think I can get that.

00:10:57.540 I can, I understand that, but what it means, what it means is that America is the only country that will massacre its own children on a regular basis.

00:11:08.380 And America has to own that.

00:11:11.480 If it wants to own the second amendment has to own the massacre of children as a particularly American phenomenon.

00:11:18.760 And I just, I, I just think if, if that's what we're going to say, that's what we have to be.

00:11:23.720 That's what, how we have to understand ourselves and our country.

00:11:27.320 I'm an American citizen.

00:11:28.920 Yeah.

00:11:29.300 I understand that being an American means to live in a country where children will be massacred on a regular basis.

00:11:34.180 Well, uh, listen, I'm, I find this deeply alarming too, but there have been massive shootings of children overseas and other countries, perhaps not as regularly as we see here.

00:11:45.540 And it's a problem we have to take a hard look at.

00:11:48.040 Um, but the, the thing is we have a huge country.

00:11:51.820 Our country's way bigger than virtually all the other countries that in which this has happened or where we look at to sort of see what's happening there.

00:11:58.660 Um, 330 million people are not easy to control and we have lunacy and we have red flags that we ignore.

00:12:05.880 And I mean, both in connection with the selling of guns and just in connection with policing ourselves, you know, like being a conservative citizen and calling up, you know, the authorities and saying, Hey, this guy's a problem.

00:12:17.800 Like we saw with a Buffalo shooter, he tortured a cat to death.

00:12:21.100 I mean, animal torture is always a precursor.

00:12:24.920 It's all, I mean, like you can take it to the bank anyway.

00:12:28.140 Um, well, I mean, I think one of the things I would say is that I have been persuaded these red flag laws partly because of David French's passionate support for them seem like at least one way forward, uh, to try and catch, uh, psychopaths or just deeply troubled young men from doing this.

00:12:47.080 And it's, it's mainly young men.

00:12:48.940 The other thing that's behind this.

00:12:50.880 And if you look at this kid's past, no father, if you know, present father, if, and you will find through all these cases and through a lot of, not just mass murders, but regular shootings, which happen every day, that it's, it's young men without fathers that are doing this.

00:13:12.560 And at some level, we have to also get the deeper cultural issues here, which is that men and boys, boys need dads.

00:13:23.100 They really do.

00:13:25.400 And some male role model to teach them what it is to be a man, which is not, uh, not using an AR-15.

00:13:33.860 It's not using one and only using something out of defense to protect your family or your children or your neighborhood.

00:13:39.520 And there is a different kind of masculinity than this, uh, this kind of macho warrior ethic.

00:13:46.020 And, uh, I think the absence of fatherhood is a hugely underappreciated phenomenon in our social ills.

00:13:55.500 And this kid, not only did he not have a dad, he really didn't have much of a mom.

00:13:59.320 According to the reports, the mom, according to the grandmother was on drugs and was no longer even in the picture.

00:14:06.200 He didn't get along with her.

00:14:07.160 He was living with the grandmother.

00:14:08.180 So, you know, he had dropped out of, out of school.

00:14:11.460 We saw a soundbite with his grandfather being like, Oh, you can't tell him what to do.

00:14:15.020 You know, kids today.

00:14:15.900 It's like, no, you can, you can, when they're a minor, you can force them to go to school or you can seek help.

00:14:21.140 And you can understand he's withdrawing from society and you can monitor his online behavior and so on.

00:14:26.220 And that was the news just, uh, over the weekend that he did.

00:14:30.880 In addition to this timeline, we're now getting about what happened with the, with the police.

00:14:36.100 There is a social media app called Yubo, Y-O-Y-U-B-O.

00:14:42.220 And, um, I had never heard of this, but apparently it's based in Paris.

00:14:46.940 And sure enough, Andrew, we heard from the FBI after the Buffalo shooting that the vast majority of school shooters or mass shooters do telegraph their intentions beforehand.

00:14:55.780 And the news is we went into the Memorial day weekend was, Oh, he, you know, 30 minutes before he shot his grandmother.

00:15:01.200 He was like, I'm going to shoot my grandma.

00:15:02.640 Okay.

00:15:02.900 I just shot my grandma.

00:15:03.940 And then I'm going to go do a school shooting.

00:15:05.560 And then it was over.

00:15:06.820 No, it was much more extensive than that.

00:15:09.540 Um, he apparently went onto this website.

00:15:12.000 He was telling girls on the website, he was going to rape them.

00:15:14.800 He showed off a rifle he had purchased.

00:15:17.140 He threatened to shoot up schools in live streams.

00:15:21.500 And many of the users reported him.

00:15:24.780 There was one woman, um, last name Robbins, 19 years old, said he verbally threatened to break down her door and rape and murder her after she rebuffed his sexual advances.

00:15:33.020 She reported him to Yubo several times, she says, and blocked him, but continued seeing his live streams.

00:15:39.760 Another girl, Hannah, 18, from Canada, said she reported him, too, to Yubo in early April after he threatened to shoot up her school and rape and kill her and her mother during one live stream session.

00:15:52.000 I'm not saying it's Yubo's fault.

00:15:54.780 But we don't have a big system to collect all the red flags as they pop up, be it on Yubo, be it from the school that sees the dropout come, be it from his friends at Wendy's who said he was inappropriate there and making troubling remarks.

00:16:10.540 You know, there's just no way to capture it in such a large country.

00:16:13.660 And the other thing is that online, of course, you add the number of people with a million different avatars, a million different names, and a huge amount of anonymity.

00:16:25.840 And I don't know what would be required for us to be able to find these things.

00:16:31.880 But I'm sure it's doable at some level, and we should have better ways in which we can identify this, and social media companies should take responsibility.

00:16:41.040 I mean, it's not Yubo's fault.

00:16:42.080 It's no one's fault but the shooter.

00:16:43.300 But if Yubo had been told of this and never did anything, just one call to the FBI would have helped.

00:16:52.000 Right.

00:16:52.920 That's what we could have avoided.

00:16:54.180 And that seems to be something that social media companies, again, so many major companies seem to think their only goal and their only motive is to make money.

00:17:05.620 And it is to make money and to help please their shareholders.

00:17:08.480 But we're also civic entities.

00:17:11.020 We're all citizens.

00:17:13.560 And I think it's a terrible thing that major companies do not feel in any way responsible for the social peace of their own societies.

00:17:24.220 It's as if they exist in some weird world of cyberspace where they don't acknowledge that they also have responsibilities as well as rights.

00:17:34.420 You're so right.

00:17:35.060 And you point out that it's almost always young men between the ages of, let's say, 15, if it's a school shooting, and 22, you know, around there.

00:17:47.980 And it's different ethnicities.

00:17:50.340 It's often white.

00:17:50.940 In this case, it was somebody who was Latino and, you know, similar.

00:17:55.160 But you can get a profile very easily of who the potential school shooters are.

00:18:00.360 It's almost never.

00:18:01.640 I can't even remember a case where it was a young girl or a woman.

00:18:05.060 So there's a way of creating a profile in the same way, frankly, we did for the, you know, radical Islamist terror attacks that the country was suffering for for a long time after 9-11, the domestic terror attacks.

00:18:18.340 And people can say it's inappropriate, but there's a profile, you know, and there's a reason, like, you're not going to suspect me of committing radical Islamist terror on the homeland or you of committing a school shooting.

00:18:32.200 Right.

00:18:32.380 You don't fit the profile.

00:18:33.540 You've aged out.

00:18:34.440 And we're not doing that.

00:18:36.520 Thank you, Megan.

00:18:39.640 So congratulations.

00:18:41.020 I'm constantly aware of my gradual decrepitude.

00:18:43.800 But, yeah, no, I know.

00:18:45.520 I'm like these school shootings.

00:18:47.000 But you know what?

00:18:48.080 Most of the actual just shootings in America are committed by men under 30.

00:18:53.280 Yeah.

00:18:53.920 These are not women shooting people up. 1.00

00:18:56.840 It's 90, I think, over 90% male.

00:18:59.120 And, of course, it's 90% happening among men whose testosterone levels are at their natural life peak, which is likely to reduce their inhibitions, increase their likelihood for anger, and especially if they're in conflict with others, lead to outbreak.

00:19:15.940 These are things that we know.

00:19:17.560 And as I said, we can do all this stuff, but unless these boys, and that's what they are in so many circumstances, don't have someone in their lives who can tell them what's right and what's wrong, they are going to keep doing this.

00:19:33.660 And that's our deeper problem.

00:19:35.920 That's what's so disturbing is that your inability to stop it and you know it.

00:19:41.820 You know, it's like in some of these cases, sure, we can red flag these guys, maybe even involuntarily commit some of the worst ones.

00:19:49.260 But the bar for that is so high right now and no one's even considering lowering it.

00:19:54.100 You know, that's one thing I want.

00:19:55.760 I want it to be easier.

00:19:57.980 There may be beginnings of a shift on mental illness, I think, Megan.

00:20:00.900 I mean, I do think that the way in which mental illness has combined with drug addiction, especially with meth and to some extent with fentanyl now, and homelessness, we, I think, need to have a conversation again about whether it is a good thing for the mentally ill to be allowed to walk free everywhere and not to have some compulsory kind of care.

00:20:28.500 If not for their own sake, then for the sake of the rest of the country.

00:20:33.340 I mean, many of these shootings of people with serious, you know, really difficult mental challenges.

00:20:39.860 And that's, you know, that's, we did, we started doing that in the 80s.

00:20:44.700 It was Reagan, actually, that supported the deregulation of what we used to call committing.

00:20:52.180 I don't know what the, in England it's called sectioning or something, they come up with some word.

00:20:56.060 But it means involuntary, being involuntarily sent to a hospital where your mental health can be tackled.

00:21:04.800 And I, for one, having looked around me and seen the city I grew up in, and also in my own life, people with mental illness,

00:21:12.080 I think allowing people with mental illness to get sicker and sicker until their lives are being thrown away is not something I could do in good conscience with a family member or someone I had any, and I've had family members in such institutions.

00:21:28.460 And I, and they are, you know, they are incredibly important for helping people with serious mental illness.

00:21:36.100 Mm-hmm.

00:21:36.820 We have such a mass problem with it now because we don't have good facilities.

00:21:40.320 We don't have, I've said before, loving facilities for, let's say, a mom or a grandma, in this case,

00:21:45.760 that wanted to involuntarily commit with their, their 18-year-old son or grandson, that there's no place right now that you would willingly put a loved child or grandchild.

00:21:55.680 And we need one.

00:21:57.100 And then we need to be, you know, the, the left wants to go after the Second Amendment rights.

00:22:01.660 What about the Fourth Amendment rights, right?

00:22:03.520 The, the, the freedom to be in, to avoid involuntary searches and seizures or unreasonable searches and seizures, right?

00:22:10.040 That's, that's why they can't just lock us up and throw away the key.

00:22:13.060 Well, why don't we take a look at that?

00:22:15.080 Because I think a little, if we're going to ebb and flow on some of these rights, that should be one on the table.

00:22:19.440 I mean, what was this guy doing out and about after making these threats that were public and knowable?

00:22:24.940 You know, shouldn't we be casting a wider net while Merrick Garland's so busy investigating parents as threats for not wearing masks at school board meetings,

00:22:35.120 but he's doing nothing to coordinate, at least with the social media.

00:22:38.780 That, you know, he wants to coordinate with the social media on disinformation doesn't, people putting out wrong COVID info.

00:22:43.880 But what about coordinating with social media companies on men who fit this profile, who are of the age,

00:22:49.300 who have been reported repeatedly by people for making threats to shoot up schools, right?

00:22:53.860 Like, what about that?

00:22:55.060 The left won't even talk about that because civil liberties, other than the Second Amendment, they care about civil liberties, except for that one.

00:23:00.740 There are civil liberties, civil liberties.

00:23:02.920 I'm a big civil libertarian.

00:23:04.140 But I do think that when you're dealing with people who are not fully able to be, to consent to things,

00:23:09.380 who aren't fully able to be in control of their own faculties, in which we can have good criteria for recognizing that

00:23:15.860 and for helping them and thereby saving the community from the constant interactions that one has.

00:23:24.200 I mean, you think of the subway in New York City and so much of the people that are committing violence there or just disruption are clearly not mentally well,

00:23:32.900 like the subway shooter not so long ago.

00:23:36.560 And it's, you must see it, right?

00:23:41.440 I live in Washington, D.C.

00:23:42.400 I'm now happily in Provincetown.

00:23:44.000 But in Washington, it's everywhere on the streets.

00:23:47.080 I mean, it's not as bad as in the West Coast, but it's right there.

00:23:50.660 And my heart goes out to people in that situation.

00:23:53.800 And especially with meth, which is this terrifyingly potent drug, especially as it's been reformulated.

00:24:00.680 It would make a sane person crazy.

00:24:03.600 What it does to crazy people, I know I'm not supposed to use those words, but you know what I'm saying.

00:24:09.380 Yes, of course.

00:24:10.300 When people do have-

00:24:40.300 The soft targets are attractive for a reason to these lunatics.

00:24:44.140 And I feel like, and by the way, another thing, just as an aside, is the media has to stop with the constant publication of the names and pictures of the shooters.

00:24:52.780 I mean, look at Jordan Peterson.

00:24:54.340 Look at Gavin DeBecker.

00:24:55.340 There's so many people have done great writing on this.

00:24:57.340 They want infamy.

00:24:58.360 And the media just proceeds to help without any thought for their role in it.

00:25:01.680 But on the subject of the school, Andrew, the information that came out this weekend is chilling.

00:25:08.580 Let me just give you a bit of the TikTok.

00:25:10.240 This is via CBS, but everybody has it because they gave it.

00:25:12.760 They finally, finally came out and gave the TikTok, which they've been avoiding all last week.

00:25:17.360 They lied.

00:25:17.900 They misstated the facts.

00:25:19.820 And now they've finally been forced to actually list it.

00:25:22.860 11.27 a.m.

00:25:23.800 An exterior door to the school was propped open by a teacher.

00:25:26.220 One minute later, gunman's truck crashed into a ditch near the school.

00:25:29.820 Teacher runs into a room in the school to retrieve a phone and goes back to the open door.

00:25:34.500 Two males from a nearby funeral home head to the scene of the crash.

00:25:38.100 The gunman fires at them, but doesn't hit them.

00:25:39.760 11.30, this is minutes later, a person, apparently the teacher calls 911 to report the crash and the armed gunman.

00:25:46.920 11.31, the gunman reaches the last row of vehicles at the school, begins shooting at the school.

00:25:51.860 So as of 11.31 a.m., the gunman was shooting at the school.

00:25:56.240 A school resource officer responds to the school from off campus, driving past the gunman, who's hunkered down behind a vehicle.

00:26:02.900 One minute later, 11.32, multiple shots are fired at the school.

00:26:06.180 11.33, gunman enters the school.

00:26:07.900 He enters the school, so nothing happened with a school resource officer to stop him.

00:26:12.680 He then begins shooting into room 111 or room 112.

00:26:16.300 Apparently, they were connected by a bathroom.

00:26:18.460 He fired at least 100 rounds.

00:26:21.420 So most of the damage, we believe, happened early, though we don't know that.

00:26:25.600 11.35, three Uvalde police officers entered the school through the same door as the gunman.

00:26:29.920 They suffered, quote, grazing wounds.

00:26:31.760 I'd like to know more about that since they've been misleading us and their police do not seem particularly brave.

00:26:37.900 What's your grazing wound?

00:26:39.400 Tell me more.

00:26:41.000 Later, three additional police officers and a sheriff's deputy entered the school.

00:26:44.800 By 11.37 to 11.44, another 16 rounds were fired off.

00:26:50.300 By 11.51, police sergeant, other law enforcement agents arrive.

00:26:53.820 12.03 now.

00:26:54.740 So we're 30-plus minutes into this.

00:26:57.300 As many as 19 officers are in the school hallway.

00:27:00.040 A student in room 112 called 911, whispering she was in room 12.

00:27:05.660 Seven minutes later, 12.10, she calls 911 again, saying multiple people are dead.

00:27:09.920 Three minutes after that, 12.13, she calls 911 again.

00:27:13.000 Two minutes after that, members of a Border Patrol tactical unit arrive at the school.

00:27:18.580 12.16, the student calls 911 again, saying eight to nine students were alive.

00:27:23.800 12.19, another student calls 911.

00:27:26.480 The call gets disconnected.

00:27:28.080 12.21, the gunman fires again.

00:27:31.460 The group of law enforcement officers and agents move down the hallway during a 911 call made at this time.

00:27:36.600 You can hear the sound of three shots being fired.

00:27:39.200 All the cops are there.

00:27:40.240 You got two dozen cops outside.

00:27:41.440 He's still shooting people, or so it would seem.

00:27:43.980 12.13, first student who had been calling 911 called again, staying on the line for 21 seconds.

00:27:49.700 She told 911 he shot the door.

00:27:52.120 12.43 and 12.47, the student called 911 again, begging, please send the police now.

00:28:01.260 This poor child.

00:28:02.460 Can you imagine what she, I think, was thinking over the course of an hour as she knew the police were there and they didn't come in?

00:28:10.140 She said she could hear the police next door.

00:28:12.820 12.50, the officers finally breached a locked door using, what, TNT, dynamite?

00:28:20.520 No, keys they got from the janitor that was accessible to them all along.

00:28:27.580 Shots were heard, the gunman was killed, and then they rescued the remaining students.

00:28:33.380 There's no excuse if you are not willing to risk your life to save a bunch of single-digit children who are being shot by a crazed gunman.

00:28:42.220 You're in the wrong line of work if you're wearing a badge.

00:28:45.460 Find something else to do.

00:28:47.660 What are your thoughts on it?

00:28:53.260 Well, I can't put it better than that.

00:28:57.420 Although I am not going to be a judge of people in that situation, but it does seem to me to be just horrifying incompetence and cowardice.

00:29:09.440 Let's call it what it is.

00:29:11.260 I want to go back to one detail you mentioned, which was 100 rounds.

00:29:15.960 How many bullets is that?

00:29:17.660 That's 100.

00:29:20.740 Do you know?

00:29:21.400 That's 100 bullets.

00:29:22.260 100 bullets?

00:29:23.160 Yeah.

00:29:25.300 Now, you say 100 bullets, the ability to shoot 100 times is a completely normal weapon for self-defense, and I don't believe it.

00:29:34.740 Well, it was modified, though, I think.

00:29:36.500 I think it was modified.

00:29:37.380 But here's the thing.

00:29:38.560 Even if it was.

00:29:39.160 I'm sorry.

00:29:39.380 No one needs a gun that can shoot 100 rounds like that in a civilized society.

00:29:45.740 No one.

00:29:46.160 No one for hunting, no one for shooting, no one for self-defense.

00:29:49.120 But if you might, we have laws in the books preventing murder that he didn't observe either.

00:29:53.760 You know, he modified it to have a greater capacity.

00:29:56.340 But let me just take you back to Virginia Tech and that shooting, which I covered live.

00:29:59.960 I was there moments out the day after it happened.

00:30:03.400 And he only used semi-automatic handguns.

00:30:06.360 That's it.

00:30:07.040 He just had a couple of them.

00:30:08.300 And they're very easy to reload quickly.

00:30:09.960 You know, it's like, so you can blame it on the AR-15.

00:30:12.660 And I couldn't care less about an AR-15.

00:30:14.580 Do I care whether people get to keep their AR-15s?

00:30:16.760 Not really.

00:30:17.800 But I understand that you could take away every single one of them.

00:30:22.180 It's not going to change anything.

00:30:23.240 You're going to have just as many school shootings, and you're going to have just as many dead.

00:30:26.940 It's those particular guns.

00:30:29.000 I can give you guns could be a potential problem here.

00:30:31.360 I can give you that.

00:30:32.500 This particular gun, that's a comfort check.

00:30:34.980 That's the shoes at the airport.

00:30:36.520 Getting rid of them is not going to stop this.

00:30:40.420 Well, that may be true, too.

00:30:42.280 Then the question is simply what I said before, which is that we are the only country in the world where this thing happens, really.

00:30:50.040 I mean, there have been, I think, a couple of others elsewhere by a mile.

00:30:56.500 So that's what America means.

00:30:58.980 Own it.

00:31:01.580 I think there's going to be accountability for these officers, quite clearly.

00:31:05.700 Yes, they will be.

00:31:06.860 And the fact that they lied about it after the fact is even worse.

00:31:09.780 Now we finally have the DOJ investigating.

00:31:11.460 Originally, they said no.

00:31:12.640 They want to investigate every police department.

00:31:14.300 I mean, you have an altercation with a man in a car who happens to be African-American.

00:31:19.300 Believe me, the DOJ is going to be investigating.

00:31:21.080 This one took them a week before they finally said, OK, we'll look into it.

00:31:24.720 Thanks.

00:31:25.520 OK, terrific.

00:31:26.800 We'll get to the bottom of all of it.

00:31:28.420 We do appear to now know the name of the the head officer who made the call to treat this as a hostage situation instead of as an active shooter situation.

00:31:37.660 And I have to say, you're more generous than I am, because unlike you, I am willing to judge.

00:31:42.660 And that man's a coward.

00:31:43.540 And I don't know how he looks himself in the mirror on a day like this now that we know.

00:31:47.980 I mean, he definitely has blood on his hands.

00:31:49.760 It's not his fault, but he could have done more to stop it.

00:31:53.140 And he's going to have to deal with that from now until the day he passes.

00:31:56.460 All right, stand by Andrew Sullivan is here to discuss so much more, including his recent testy exchange with Jon Stewart.

00:32:03.100 My God, Jon Stewart was a nightmare.

00:32:05.320 He's awful.

00:32:06.520 Whatever you once thought of him, he's just truly awful now.

00:32:09.740 And what he did to Andrew was grossly unfair and an ambush, says Andrew.

00:32:14.940 And also, Leah Thomas is back in the news today giving an interview this morning that was it.

00:32:20.400 It was to ABC.

00:32:21.620 And guess what?

00:32:23.880 Sorry.

00:32:24.520 Not sorry.

00:32:25.380 We'll tell you what you're saying.

00:32:26.400 Don't go away.

00:32:26.860 OK, so, Andrew, let me kick it off with Leah Thomas, the transgender swimmer who's on the UPenn team, who's been breaking records and beating all the biological women.

00:32:42.160 She's finally on camera giving an interview now to ABC News, sat down with Juju Chang and had some things to say about her right to swim in women's sports.

00:32:55.280 Here, Soundbite One.

00:32:56.060 The women who signed the letter anonymously said that they absolutely supported your right to transition, but they simply think it's unfair for you to compete against cisgender women.

00:33:08.000 You can't go halfway and be like, I support trans women and trans people, but only to a certain point where if you support trans women as women and they've met all the NCA requirements,

00:33:25.000 and then I don't know if you can really say something like that, trans women are not a threat to women's sports.

00:33:33.340 What do you make of it?

00:33:35.160 Well, I want to say two things.

00:33:39.920 One is that I understand and appreciate the situation that Leah Thomas finds herself in, and I don't think this is a ploy or something fake.

00:33:52.220 I think it's real, and I want to respect her and her rights in every single respect, and that means 99% of the situations I would support her in.

00:34:04.980 There's just like 1% of a few small things like biology, which is incredibly important, in something like sports, in which biology is central.

00:34:15.200 So, similarly, I do think that there are questions in which women who've been abused and need to find shelter should have an option to have a shelter for their domestic abuse in a place where there are no people with penises.

00:34:33.080 You can have shelters, which have both trans women and women, but I think there should be some options for women who don't want to be in the presence of men, and I would say that also for prison.

00:34:49.880 Now, those aren't huge exceptions, Megan.

00:34:52.940 They're just a small concession to reality.

00:34:55.300 And, look, I have always felt myself to be a big supporter of trans rights, and you know what?

00:35:02.500 We won.

00:35:03.920 The Bostock decision granted transgender people every civil right under the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

00:35:13.480 If I had been told that would happen 10 years ago, I wouldn't have believed it.

00:35:17.720 It's happened.

00:35:18.540 It was an opinion signed by Neil Gorsuch.

00:35:22.720 So, it's over.

00:35:23.980 All that's left is the cultural issue, and the cultural issue, in my view, has been co-opted by the radical left, which has taken hold of what was once the gay rights movement and turned it into something called the LGBTQIA++ movement, which is really an attempt not to grant civil rights to transgender people or to gay people, which has happened,

00:35:51.660 but to destroy the sexual binary, because they believe it's somehow oppressive.

00:36:00.560 Now, I don't believe the sex binary is oppressive.

00:36:03.660 In fact, I think it's kind of liberating in many ways.

00:36:06.080 It's oppressive for the tiny proportion of people who have this deep conflict between how they understand themselves and how their bodies are.

00:36:16.320 And I understand that, but it's a tiny minority.

00:36:20.660 And for the vast majority of people, the sexual binary is, in fact, a fact.

00:36:25.580 If we didn't have a sexual binary, there would be no human beings. 0.99

00:36:29.200 It is integral to our reproductive strategy as a species.

00:36:33.300 There are no people who are both men and women.

00:36:36.740 There are a tiny number of people who are intersex, but normally you can tell whether they have large or small gametes.

00:36:43.860 No one is born with the ability to have sperm and eggs, right?

00:36:48.000 You can't reproduce yourself.

00:36:49.600 We're not amoebas.

00:36:50.740 We're humans.

00:36:51.360 And so making this distinction should not offend transgender people.

00:36:57.740 And you know what?

00:36:58.580 It doesn't offend most transgender people.

00:37:01.320 The trouble is these activists seize control of these issues.

00:37:05.340 They've used and abused us gays in trying to turn us into things we're not.

00:37:12.180 They're trying to make that you would think that every single gay person in America was a screaming leftist if you read the media.

00:37:19.480 Yeah.

00:37:19.840 It is not true.

00:37:20.840 It is not true.

00:37:22.060 It is not true.

00:37:22.860 It is not true.

00:37:23.780 We, as gay people, are born everywhere in the United States, randomly.

00:37:28.000 That means in Texas and Oklahoma just as much as in New York and California.

00:37:33.120 And we have in the gay community a large diversity of opinion.

00:37:39.140 We have 30% voting for Trump.

00:37:41.980 We've always had solid gay conservatives and liberals who are not party to this neo-Marxist claptrap.

00:37:50.840 And the trouble is the intimidation of those of us who stick up for being gay or lesbian, who are same-sex attracted, not same-gender attracted, has rendered this debate skewed.

00:38:09.020 I have to say one good news about this was finally the New York Times ran Michael Powell's piece for Sunday, which is the first time that newspaper has published anything approaching objectivity on this question.

00:38:23.540 Previously, it's just been pure propaganda.

00:38:25.680 And look, there is and has to be a distinction between trans women and women.

00:38:35.060 And women who have always been women, are biologically women, are chromosomally women, are functionally women, have had the experiences of a woman from childhood onwards.

00:38:47.140 That distinction between that and someone who's biologically male with all the male nibbly bits, as it were, it's real.

00:38:58.180 And it doesn't offend gay people.

00:39:00.280 Well, look, you get rid of same-sex attraction in favor of same-gender attraction, you've abolished homosexuality. 0.79

00:39:09.160 Yeah.

00:39:10.320 Radicalism of this attack on sex is not only attack on the core women's rights, it's also an attack on gay people.

00:39:18.380 I am now told by super-woke, lefty, LGBTQIA, RWXYZ plus people, that I should be attracted to someone who has a vagina. 1.00

00:39:34.520 Now, the last person who told me that was a priest.

00:39:38.540 And these people are Puritans.

00:39:42.460 They're anti-gay, in my opinion.

00:39:45.220 They certainly don't like gay men. 0.98

00:39:48.380 And it's time for gay people to reclaim our movement, which we succeeded dramatically with.

00:39:56.560 Why did we succeed?

00:39:57.480 And I was obviously a central part of that in the 90s and 2000s, was because we talked civilly to people.

00:40:03.800 We made our arguments.

00:40:05.340 I went out and talked to people.

00:40:06.920 I disagreed.

00:40:07.540 I went to evangelical churches, fundamentalist churches, Catholic institutions.

00:40:11.620 I made the argument.

00:40:13.840 And you know what?

00:40:14.640 The great thing about America is if you make the argument, and it makes sense, a majority of people will be fair-minded, and we change the world.

00:40:22.740 And now this group of leftists is throwing so much of that goodwill away by being so viscerally hostile to so many people.

00:40:32.620 And to bring the debate also down to the children, which is the children should be left alone.

00:40:41.900 Seriously.

00:40:42.460 You have no right to indoctrinate my child with your weird views of biological sex and gender and so on.

00:40:50.400 But to hear Leah Thomas tell it, this is really, you know, you're really sort of stuck in the past.

00:40:58.000 And that she really doesn't, she doesn't have any advantages over the biological women just because she's lived her entire life as a man, but for the last couple of years. 1.00

00:41:09.260 Here was a question on, and listen, listen for the term, legacy effects, legacy effects.

00:41:15.980 You mean the 20 years as a man, legacy part?

00:41:19.660 Listen.

00:41:21.260 There is this concept of the legacy effects of testosterone and that that can't ever be zero.

00:41:29.440 Should that eliminate or disqualify transgender women? 0.94

00:41:33.160 I'm not a medical expert, but there is, there's a lot of variation among cis female athletes.

00:41:42.160 There are cis women who are very tall and very muscular and have more testosterone than another cis woman.

00:41:49.320 And should that then also disqualify them?

00:41:53.700 Hmm.

00:41:54.660 What do you think?

00:41:55.080 The range of testosterone for women never overlaps with the range of testosterone for men, period.

00:42:04.620 I recommend if people are not aware of the science of this, a terrific book by Carol Hoeven at Harvard, a brilliant professor at Harvard, well-loved, but also isolated now on this.

00:42:17.280 Who's just, this is, this is about reality and bone structure, musculature, all these things, the wave of testosterone in the womb, the wave of testosterone at puberty.

00:42:31.540 These things dramatically, dramatically alter your perspective.

00:42:35.980 That's why every human being can look at another human being and instantly tell they're a man or a woman, instantly.

00:42:43.340 Because that's what testosterone does to the body.

00:42:48.160 And she is, look, I'm, she's this intelligent person.

00:42:52.600 This is, she knows this is not true.

00:42:54.840 Yeah, that's right.

00:42:55.880 She knows this is not true.

00:42:57.580 That's right.

00:42:57.820 And happily in the Times this Sunday, it was stated as fact, this is not true.

00:43:03.040 Yeah, there was an extraordinary piece.

00:43:04.740 We include trans women, sure. 0.98

00:43:06.780 But don't fool yourself in thinking you're going to protect women's sports.

00:43:13.460 You're not.

00:43:14.020 You're going to destroy it.

00:43:15.980 Well, in the same way, once you actually enter the hospital and need medical care, you can't, the, the, the jig is up.

00:43:22.220 You know, you've got to disclose.

00:43:23.980 They're going to find out what, what's inside of you, what your body parts are actually does matter in a medical perspective.

00:43:30.080 And a matter in a sports perspective, too.

00:43:33.300 They just dug up two people from Pompeii.

00:43:36.340 They were, they were liquefied in the eruption at Pompeii by Mount Vesuvius.

00:43:41.140 They know from the bones what sex they were. 0.99

00:43:45.380 Wow.

00:43:46.020 From the bones.

00:43:47.640 Sex is implanted in every cell in our body.

00:43:50.320 And the idea that it's some trivial elements.

00:43:55.360 Look, this is all a postmodern attempt to destroy biology, to destroy scientific reality.

00:44:01.600 That's where this philosophy comes from.

00:44:04.880 And it's a profoundly illiberal philosophy.

00:44:08.700 It denies the centrality of reason to human debate and puts feelings at the front of them.

00:44:15.320 It believes that science itself is a function of white supremacy.

00:44:21.160 I'm not kidding.

00:44:22.700 It believes the enlightenment was the beginning of darkness.

00:44:26.940 It is deeply aiding.

00:44:28.860 Look, I went out, I studied political philosophy at Harvard.

00:44:31.180 I have a PhD in stuff.

00:44:32.720 I had to read this crap.

00:44:34.680 And forgive me, but it is, it's, it's strange.

00:44:38.940 It's weird.

00:44:39.420 And it's taken.

00:44:40.300 It's being indoctrinated into so many people who really should know better.

00:44:44.260 And everyone else is too cowed by fear because the weapon of saying you hate a certain group of people, that weapon, which is a lie, a massive lie.

00:44:54.800 I don't, now, some people, I've no doubt, are bigots towards people who are transgender.

00:45:02.200 No question.

00:45:02.780 It happens.

00:45:03.760 But my view is the majority of people don't want to harm trans people.

00:45:08.020 Of course we don't.

00:45:09.360 We don't want to harm trans children.

00:45:11.160 But we don't want to, we don't want to get put gender dysphoric children, children in a position of making decisions about their entire future lives without very, very, very careful mental health monitoring. 0.73

00:45:31.700 And when they have weird, quote, peer pressure, although it's not a peer, from the adults teaching them, who are pushing them into this.

00:45:40.980 And no one can tell me it doesn't happen.

00:45:42.920 It happened in my son's school.

00:45:45.960 I witnessed this day after day when he would come home and tell me, and I was probing once I heard the first story, what they say today, what they say today.

00:45:52.840 They were pushing it as though they wanted the boys in this all boys school to declare themselves girls.

00:46:00.760 This school no longer uses the term sons or boys.

00:46:05.540 They just say your student, your student, this, I mean, this is one of the reasons we left.

00:46:10.820 Now, wait, I want to stand you by it because there's so much more to get to, including whether you learned that term nibbly bits while you were at Harvard.

00:46:16.600 I'm sorry, it just came into my head, that phrase.

00:46:22.740 I was just trying to think of something that wouldn't, uh, meat and two veg.

00:46:26.380 How's that?

00:46:26.780 Your meat and two veg.

00:46:27.660 That was the other thing we used to say in England.

00:46:29.580 I don't know if that's better.

00:46:31.300 All right, stand by, because I do want to ask you about that cad Jon Stewart, what happened there, and also Bill Maher pushing back on some of this, because he's been characteristically brave on this issue, I would say, and to his credit.

00:46:43.960 Sorry, so stand by, we'll come back right after a quick break, more with Andrew, and then we will come back after that with analysis of the Sussman not guilty verdict.

00:46:53.000 John Durham's case against the HRC lawyer, Michael Sussman, fell apart, and the jury saw it, and he was found not guilty.

00:47:02.040 Let's talk about Bill Maher, because I know you think this was sort of an important moment, because he's listened to, he's, the left listens to him.

00:47:14.800 He has influence with, I think, large swaths of the left still, even though he's not a, he's not a woke leftist, but he's still a leftist.

00:47:22.120 He hasn't abandoned his liberal principles.

00:47:23.500 I think he considers himself a man without a party currently, like a lot, like a lot of people.

00:47:27.960 Anyway, he took on this whole transgender insanity recently on his show. 1.00

00:47:32.100 Here's a clip.

00:47:32.760 Something about the human race is changing at a previously unprecedented rate.

00:47:37.480 We have to at least discuss it.

00:47:39.400 When things change this much, this fast, people are allowed to ask, what's up with that?

00:47:45.080 All the babies are in the wrong bodies?

00:47:47.500 Because we're literally experimenting on children.

00:47:49.980 Maybe that's why Sweden and Finland have stopped giving puberty blockers to kids.

00:47:55.920 Because we just don't know much about the long-term effects.

00:47:59.280 Although common sense should tell you that when you reverse the course of raging hormones, there's going to be problems.

00:48:06.440 If this spike in trans children is all natural, why is it regional? 0.99

00:48:11.980 Either Ohio is shaming them or California is creating them.

00:48:16.360 That's a great question.

00:48:17.500 Well, I think it misses one other central point here, which is that not just regional, but why has there been over the last 10 years a 5,000% increase in transgender identification among teenage girls, a group previously unheard of in this kind of study?

00:48:38.240 And as you say, these kids are being taught, essentially, that if they're lucky, they're trans.

00:48:48.200 If they want to be cool, they're trans.

00:48:52.620 Now, I want to just say one word about what this does to gay kids. 1.00

00:48:57.560 You're a gay boy, right? 0.61

00:48:58.980 And you may have some effeminate characteristics.

00:49:03.580 And you were told you could be a girl underneath.

00:49:08.160 That's who you really are.

00:49:10.240 That's homophobia.

00:49:12.800 That's the old smear.

00:49:15.580 You're not really a boy.

00:49:17.240 You're a girl.

00:49:17.840 And you're putting that terrible idea into this boy's head at an incredibly impressionable age.

00:49:27.420 These 80% of children with gender dysphoria grow out of it and turn up to be gay. 0.76

00:49:35.380 Underneath this is an attack on gay kids.

00:49:37.880 And the gay rights movement has been so co-opted by postmodern queer and transgender ideology that they can't see this. 0.73

00:49:51.180 And I'm telling you, just as there is a big outcry on parents about this confusion of children with, let's face it, postmodern queer theory.

00:50:01.900 This is not reality.

00:50:04.140 It's not biology.

00:50:05.160 It's not what we know to be true about the tiny number of people who are transgender.

00:50:09.900 It is an attempt to end the sex binary. 0.98

00:50:13.200 And in the process, it's driven by a lot of homophobia.

00:50:17.820 And at some point, this LGBTQ movement has to split up.

00:50:22.600 Well, that's so interesting to say that.

00:50:24.780 A very good friend of mine who's gay said early on, kind of laughingly, but he was serious.

00:50:30.980 Why do we have to share a letter group with them?

00:50:33.060 Like, he didn't see the causes as perfectly aligned.

00:50:37.800 He didn't like the activists who represent the trans community, if there is such a thing.

00:50:42.840 And he saw what you're seeing, which is too often the things that we fought against, like, oh, my son likes pink.

00:50:52.200 You know, now it's maybe he's trans, right?

00:50:54.600 We used to be like, OK, just because he's pink doesn't mean anything.

00:50:58.160 He could be gay.

00:50:58.840 He could be straight.

00:50:59.480 It doesn't like it doesn't mean anything.

00:51:01.020 We sort of got to the point where we accepted that.

00:51:02.840 And now suddenly we've gone back to where it means you're a girl.

00:51:05.980 You forget gay. 1.00

00:51:06.700 They've gotten rid of gay altogether.

00:51:08.480 Yes.

00:51:09.060 And how regressive that is.

00:51:12.500 How reactionary.

00:51:14.040 We should be telling little boys and girls, express yourselves how you will.

00:51:18.320 There is no one way of being a boy.

00:51:20.420 There's no one way of being a girl.

00:51:22.500 Well, thank God for all the bookish boys and all the tomboyish girls out there. 1.00

00:51:28.280 Yeah, we're all humans.

00:51:30.300 That's much more important.

00:51:31.560 They create a spectrum from I'm not kidding.

00:51:35.260 On one end, G.I. Joe.

00:51:37.280 On the other end, Barbie.

00:51:39.060 What is this?

00:51:40.700 Why have we gone back to the worst stereotypes of men and women?

00:51:45.520 When the whole point of the gay rights movement was to say, we can love other men and be men.

00:51:53.880 Our ownership of our own sex is critical to being gay, but critical to being trans is disowning your sex. 0.96

00:52:01.660 It's not just not alike.

00:52:03.260 It's directly opposite.

00:52:05.740 Now, historically, transgender people were part of the umbrella, as it were, because they were protected.

00:52:12.320 And most of us and the vast majority of us want to support trans rights.

00:52:17.260 And we do.

00:52:18.200 As I say, we have them.

00:52:19.940 Yeah.

00:52:20.120 We've finally got the Civil Rights Act.

00:52:22.060 You will never hear them mention this breakthrough.

00:52:24.580 Why?

00:52:25.080 Because they're not interested in civil rights. 0.95

00:52:27.980 They're interested in transforming society on leftist grounds.

00:52:32.160 They have co-opted us.

00:52:33.900 And we gay people have to say, you do not represent us.

00:52:37.520 We want to protect gay kids from this indoctrination, as well as straight kids from this indoctrination.

00:52:43.960 And we are defined by the ownership of our own sex.

00:52:47.840 The worst thing that was said to me as a kid, when I was at Christmas with my mom and my grandma, and I had a younger brother who was four years old.

00:52:56.060 My younger brother was bashing a truck up against the wall.

00:52:58.820 And I was sitting in the corner reading a book.

00:53:01.100 And my grandmother looked at my mother and looked at the two of us.

00:53:03.180 And she said to my mom, well, at least now you have a real boy.

00:53:06.040 And do you know what that does to a kid?

00:53:13.540 Being told that you're not really a boy?

00:53:16.400 There's something wrong with you?

00:53:18.440 There is nothing wrong with a gay kid who's bookish or who likes things that are stereotypically feminine.

00:53:25.020 There are plenty of gay kids who are not like that, but there are some who are.

00:53:28.360 And again, this undermining of the self-esteem of gay children. 0.99

00:53:37.020 How on earth did the gay rights movement get caught up in this?

00:53:42.660 And a few of us are trying to speak out.

00:53:45.020 You know, we're smeared constantly because of it.

00:53:47.820 We're called haters.

00:53:49.000 We're called transphobes.

00:53:50.540 There is nothing transphobic about Martina Navratilova.

00:53:54.560 Right.

00:53:55.020 There is nothing transphobic about J.K. Rowling.

00:53:57.640 That was a good bit of the New York Times piece you referenced where Martina, who I've sparred with online, but I got to give her this point.

00:54:03.580 She's like, that's where you're going to go with me.

00:54:05.140 I'm a TERF.

00:54:05.920 I'm a trans exclusive whatever radical feminist.

00:54:08.720 OK.

00:54:09.000 I mean, it's like she gets no credit for all of the work she's done as, you know, one of the first out lesbians in tennis and so on.

00:54:16.200 In that piece, a gay rights spokesperson told Michael Power not to quote Martina, not to platform any of these people.

00:54:23.560 Right.

00:54:23.940 They also believe in distorting the news.

00:54:27.740 That's right.

00:54:28.700 All right.

00:54:29.020 Now, speaking of distorting the news, why you went on his show, I do not.

00:54:35.340 We're going to have to bring it up with your therapist because he's he's been unfair for a long, long time.

00:54:40.960 And I guess maybe you wonder whether the new iteration of him is going to be more fair.

00:54:45.360 You know, like maybe people mellow in their older age.

00:54:47.660 You know, I think people tend to be more reasonable and maybe even a little bit more conservative as they get older.

00:54:53.100 Not Jon Stewart.

00:54:54.120 Man, to say he is on board the woke train is to understate what we saw on that show.

00:54:59.920 And I know you've described it as an ambush.

00:55:01.840 It had the feel of an ambush where they had him to super, super far left woke people who are who hate white people.

00:55:10.820 And then you satelliting in and, you know, sort of saying, well, I kind of like America and I don't really hate all white people.

00:55:17.980 And I don't really think that the nation is white supremacist.

00:55:20.880 And they treated you like David Duke has had shown up.

00:55:24.360 It was insane.

00:55:26.260 Here's just a small clip of what you had to deal with there.

00:55:28.400 I think you are not living in the planet most Americans are, which is why this kind of extremism, this anti-white extremism, is losing popular support, is creating a backlash, is going to elect Republicans and undo a lot of the good you think you're doing.

00:55:47.660 This is what happens when you don't talk about it.

00:55:50.280 This is what happens when white people don't talk about it, is you have racist dog whistle tropes like this that actually perpetuate and perpetuate and perpetuate.

00:56:00.140 So, I am, I, I, and I did not come on this, on this show to sit here and argue with another white man.

00:56:07.940 That's one of the reasons that we don't even engage with white men at race to dinner. 0.75

00:56:13.440 So, you know, because quite honestly, if white men were going to do something about racism, you had 400 years.

00:56:21.340 You could have done that.

00:56:22.140 Okay, every single white person upholds these systems and structures of white supremacy, and we have got to talk about it.

00:56:31.400 If I could finger snap, I would finger snap right now.

00:56:35.880 Let's remove it then from the...

00:56:36.620 Well, you'd be finger snapping without calling me a racist, John.

00:56:39.200 Let's, you're, you've been doing a pretty good job with it yourself there, so...

00:56:44.980 Mm, disgusting.

00:56:46.980 Your thoughts on it?

00:56:47.820 Well, Megan, I did it, I was asked 24 hours before, and I did it as a favorite, and I thought, and I was told I would just be one-on-one with, with John.

00:56:56.420 So, I was a kind of ambush, but leaving that aside, to go on a television show and to be attacked because of your race and your sex, a dismissal of an entire group of people based upon their race and their sex, the definition of that is bigotry.

00:57:13.940 And he gave a platform for that kind of bigotry.

00:57:18.460 This woman, by the way, she runs an organization in which women pay her 2,500 bucks to go to dinner to be told how racist they are. 1.00

00:57:27.120 I love it.

00:57:27.560 I think those women get exactly what they deserve. 1.00

00:57:29.740 I love it.

00:57:30.580 I think she's doing, she's doing the nation some good.

00:57:33.200 Take their money and shame them because they're idiots and they deserve to be exploited.

00:57:38.780 It's, it's such a cheap and easy thing to do what they're doing.

00:57:42.340 It's such an intellectually dumb thing to do what they're doing.

00:57:45.680 It is simply posturing.

00:57:47.220 The show was called, and they kept this from me, The Trouble with White People.

00:57:53.000 Do you think they do The Trouble with Jews?

00:57:55.600 The Trouble with African Americans? 0.99

00:57:59.440 No, it's as if they decided this one racial grouping is to be demonized, marginalized, and become a target of hate.

00:58:07.920 They have become everything they once said they opposed.

00:58:11.200 They're racist, sexists, and they really, really despise this country.

00:58:18.000 There are plenty to be ashamed of in this country.

00:58:21.440 Let's not beat about the Bush.

00:58:23.320 The history of slavery and segregation is terrible.

00:58:26.080 But the idea that's the only thing in America, that America's overcoming of that, you hear them say that no white people did anything for this, even though hundreds of thousands of white people gave their lives in a civil war for this?

00:58:42.160 To see nothing of the goodness of America as well as it's obviously darkness?

00:58:46.500 It's not a utopia.

00:58:48.480 It's a place which is growing.

00:58:50.840 And I came here, like so many others, and look at the footfall.

00:58:54.960 We didn't come here to join a white supremacy.

00:58:57.860 We came here to join the most multicultural, multiracial democratic experiment in the history of humankind.

00:59:03.960 And the idea that these people can now turn around and say nothing has changed since the 19th century, it's so ludicrous that it was given an entire New York Times magazine to explain itself.

00:59:16.160 I don't know what to do, Kelly.

00:59:18.780 Megan, I just know reality.

00:59:24.020 And I had this difficult position of saying, no, we have to confront the history of racism and slavery.

00:59:30.900 We really do.

00:59:32.240 And insofar as more scholarship is being done on that, it's great.

00:59:36.320 But don't distort that.

00:59:38.520 Don't turn the promise of America into a lie.

00:59:42.140 And don't undermine the principles of America in high schools and schools in order to cement the cultural revolution you want.

00:59:50.400 Stay away.

00:59:52.220 And stand down.

00:59:53.480 That's good advice for you on that show, too.

00:59:57.160 Do you think I'm going back on that, Megan?

00:59:59.700 No, I know that.

01:00:00.820 And I hope others are watching because, you know, you are of the left.

01:00:04.120 You know, it's like even...

01:00:05.060 I am not of the left, Megan.

01:00:06.200 Well, you're not exactly.

01:00:07.720 But I mean, people on the left like you.

01:00:08.940 I'm not a Republican.

01:00:09.880 No, I know you're not.

01:00:10.840 But I am, broadly speaking, a conservative.

01:00:13.860 I'm a moderate conservative.

01:00:16.060 I'm an anti-Trump, pro-environment, pro-game heritage conservative.

01:00:20.200 You know, if I'm not acceptable, who is?

01:00:23.540 That's the point I was trying to make.

01:00:24.820 And Jon Stewart's not an honest broker.

01:00:26.560 I mean, I've told the story before, but I called him.

01:00:28.580 He called me.

01:00:29.340 I said on the air that I didn't like him and that he wasn't an honest broker and that he hid behind the veil of, I'm a comedian, to offer a lot of bullshit without any accountability.

01:00:38.640 And he called me at Fox.

01:00:40.580 He called me.

01:00:41.540 And he was upset that I had called him all those things.

01:00:45.160 And, of course, I stood by every word and I told him why I thought that.

01:00:48.420 And I said, I'll give you three examples off the top of my head of what you've done.

01:00:50.860 And with respect to me, because those are the ones that were, you know, in my head when I was talking about I know he's dishonest because he said things about me that I know are not true.

01:00:57.320 And he had no answer for why he had misrepresented me so badly on so many occasions.

01:01:01.480 No answer at all.

01:01:02.620 He just wanted to get views.

01:01:04.200 That's it.

01:01:04.760 It was just about building an audience.

01:01:06.900 And even on the phone call, he tried to hide behind the comedian trope, which I didn't accept.

01:01:11.440 And that's just that's just who he is.

01:01:12.900 Right.

01:01:13.080 So I think people found something charming about his comedy routine on that show and that legacy has stayed with him.

01:01:18.700 He's done some good work for the veterans.

01:01:20.120 No one would take that away from him.

01:01:21.560 But he's a prick.

01:01:22.980 I'm sorry, but he's a jerk.

01:01:24.680 And you can see it in full in full scope with you.

01:01:28.300 And one other word, that woman, the lady who gets she's brilliant. 1.00

01:01:31.780 She's the star of the whole thing.

01:01:33.080 How she gets these women to fork over twenty five hundred bucks. 1.00

01:01:36.160 You and I would do it.

01:01:37.100 Let's do it for fifteen hundred. 0.84

01:01:38.400 No, no, no, no.

01:01:39.440 They'd have to pay me twenty five hundred bucks to sit and be lectured by her. 1.00

01:01:43.340 I mean, seriously, I can't imagine the levels of masochism of these people.

01:01:49.020 Well, listen, she said after calling you racist after she said because Stuart looks at her like, how are we supposed to talk to these people?

01:01:54.940 How are we supposed to, like, talk to somebody who's got these crazy views?

01:01:57.420 And she said, well, we have to hold them with grace and compassion after calling you a racist.

01:02:03.320 But also the arrogance of this, the idea that I that I that first of all, that I'm a Catholic.

01:02:12.860 Right.

01:02:13.040 So I the idea that I don't believe that every person is made in the image of God, regardless of anything, their race, their sex or anything is so fundamental to my worldview.

01:02:22.900 That to be brought on television, accused of being a white supremacist like that by the host.

01:02:30.160 And it's different things with a guest.

01:02:31.940 Yeah.

01:02:32.600 And the only condition I said when I said, I just don't want to go on a show where I'm called a racist by the guests or by you.

01:02:39.720 And they told me that would never happen.

01:02:42.160 Wow.

01:02:42.740 And that's what that's what happened.

01:02:44.760 Oh, that's interesting, because he came out and said, I didn't ambush him.

01:02:47.480 He he made himself look bad.

01:02:49.640 And my booker dealt with his high maintenance shenanigans.

01:02:52.620 I wasn't like, you know, me, you know how many shows I've been on over the years.

01:02:55.880 I was I've been on more.

01:02:57.540 I was the record on Bill Maher.

01:03:00.440 I do this.

01:03:00.980 I'm a pro.

01:03:01.760 I would tell you if this was on the level.

01:03:04.420 It was not on the level.

01:03:05.780 It's uniquely not on the level.

01:03:07.500 These people were liars and manipulators and they knew what they were doing.

01:03:10.800 And I was dumb enough to participate.

01:03:12.920 But, you know, I'd rather participate and be made a fool of and run away from this.

01:03:17.220 And and, you know, there's something invigorating about, as Churchill said,

01:03:21.800 being shot at, but not being hit.

01:03:24.060 There's something incredibly exciting about that.

01:03:26.500 And so I would argue the bullet came back and hit him because I think people who are 1.00

01:03:32.820 sort of hoping because he went on with Colbert and he said the reasonable things about

01:03:36.500 covid coming from a lab versus, you know, from an animal.

01:03:40.360 And he sounded like, oh, OK, maybe he's like, you know, gotten more attached to the earth

01:03:44.420 saw in that segment.

01:03:46.980 Wrong.

01:03:47.560 He's the same old John Stewart.

01:03:49.000 He's always been the one who, you know, took down Tucker in his younger years and so on.

01:03:54.300 He went on there, you know, year after year bashing anybody who had to have a lean right

01:03:58.960 even a little just so he could get clicks or get applause from his audience and didn't

01:04:03.360 care what he did to them.

01:04:04.640 I mean, truly, I'd love to talk to Taylor Lorenz, who feels attacked when somebody sends

01:04:09.580 out a tweet about her with what it was like when I was home, breastfeeding my new baby

01:04:13.820 and watching John Stewart completely rip me young in my career with total falsehoods.

01:04:18.400 That's who he is.

01:04:20.840 OK, I stole the last word.

01:04:22.360 Andrew Sullivan, always a pleasure.

01:04:24.380 And I think you helped expose him.

01:04:26.540 So you should wear it with a badge of honor.

01:04:29.520 I do, Megan.

01:04:30.180 And it's it's always an honor to come chat with you.

01:04:32.860 Thank you so much for having me.

01:04:34.180 Oh, good.

01:04:34.580 Let's do it again.

01:04:35.280 And one more thing that you you didn't mention my my collection, which is out out on a limb.

01:04:41.220 It's a collection of my essays.

01:04:42.780 A paperback is coming out very shortly.

01:04:44.460 And the the original book is out there for sale.

01:04:47.820 I should have done that.

01:04:48.760 But my apologies out on a limb, which embodies your life philosophy and that segment we just

01:04:53.660 saw and everything.

01:04:54.660 You don't care.

01:04:55.540 They can say what they want.

01:04:56.740 You keep talking and writing and we love it.

01:04:58.900 I will.

01:04:59.840 All the best.

01:05:00.460 OK, up next, more on the Andrew Sussman, not the Andrew Sussman, Michael Sussman verdict.

01:05:05.800 Not guilty.

01:05:07.480 And we're going to be talking with somebody who's followed this very closely.

01:05:10.880 We're getting reaction in.

01:05:12.080 People are angry, angry.

01:05:14.680 I said the case had collapsed.

01:05:16.140 That was an Andrew McCarthy take on it, saying that was his take on Friday.

01:05:20.860 I'll read you some of the reaction that's breaking.

01:05:23.300 Jonathan Turley, who we love, writes for the Hill.

01:05:26.000 He came out and said, look, the Durham team was hit with limiting court orders in a jury

01:05:31.560 that was hardly ideal.

01:05:33.200 That is the understatement of the century.

01:05:35.700 I'll give you the facts on this jury.

01:05:37.580 But he says this reinforces the need for a special counsel report.

01:05:40.560 We may not find out what happened with Hillary through the courts. 0.98

01:05:43.900 We need Durham to issue a full throated report to give it all up.

01:05:48.800 We'll come back with that.

01:05:49.920 A verdict is in, in the trial of former Clinton campaign attorney Michael Sussman.

01:05:59.540 He has been found not guilty.

01:06:02.480 Sussman just gave a very brief statement about the verdict.

01:06:05.000 Listen.

01:06:05.160 I have a few thoughts to share now that the trial has ended.

01:06:09.100 First, I told the truth to the FBI, and the jury clearly recognized that with their unanimous

01:06:15.720 verdict today.

01:06:17.300 I'm grateful to the members of the jury for their careful and thoughtful service.

01:06:22.500 Despite being falsely accused, I'm relieved that justice ultimately prevailed in my case.

01:06:28.780 As you can imagine, this has been a difficult year for my family and me.

01:06:32.160 Special Prosecutor John Durham, who was appointed by Bill Barr, Trump's A.G., before he left

01:06:39.880 office, has also released a statement that which reads in part, quote, while we are disappointed

01:06:44.600 in the outcome, we respect the jury's decision and thank them for their service.

01:06:48.460 Joining us now to discuss this not so surprising result is Robert Gouveia, criminal defense attorney

01:06:54.900 and host of Watching the Watchers.

01:06:57.000 Robert followed this trial closely and is ready to discuss the aftermath.

01:07:01.060 Welcome back to the show, Robert.

01:07:02.480 Great to have you.

01:07:03.720 Thanks, Megan.

01:07:04.180 Great to be with you.

01:07:04.940 Appreciate being on.

01:07:06.100 So I was watching and listening to Andy McCarthy on his podcast on Friday, and he said the

01:07:10.940 case had collapsed going into the verdicts.

01:07:12.900 And the reason he said that was because late in the week, and I talked about this at the

01:07:17.040 top of our show today, late in the week, it came out that the FBI, the ones that had,

01:07:22.660 you know, supposedly been lied to by Michael Sussman.

01:07:25.420 He went in there at Hillary's behest.

01:07:27.000 He basically said, hey, got a hot tip for you.

01:07:30.460 Trump's been talking to some Russian bank called Alpha Bank.

01:07:33.940 You should look into it.

01:07:34.820 I swear I'm not not here on behalf of anybody, certainly not Hillary, who I represent, but

01:07:39.380 she didn't ask me to come.

01:07:40.220 I swear.

01:07:40.820 Trust me.

01:07:41.580 So that's that's what happened.

01:07:42.700 But the FBI gave testimony in the case, a bunch of different people, and it came out

01:07:47.260 that the FBI in in seeking its investigators, seeking its investigators on this, said to

01:07:54.980 the investigators, we got a hot tip, need you to investigate it.

01:07:58.160 And the investigators, like any investigator, said, oh, who's the source?

01:08:01.320 Need to know so we can figure out if it's credible.

01:08:03.460 And the FBI honchos who got the investigators going didn't tell them that it was HRC's lawyer.

01:08:10.620 They told them it came from justice.

01:08:14.240 So the FBI is lying to the FBI to try to cover the fact that this is a Hillary plant,

01:08:19.660 this information.

01:08:20.880 And even those investigators having been misled, they would have been really suspicious if

01:08:24.680 they'd heard it came from HRC.

01:08:25.880 But even having been misled, it took them about two minutes to say, this is bullshit.

01:08:30.900 This is a lie.

01:08:32.320 There's no connection between Alpha Bank, this Russian bank and Trump.

01:08:35.240 And why are you sending us this us on this wild goose chase?

01:08:38.360 So the FBI looked terrible by the time this trial ended, which was only the latest in the

01:08:44.040 reasons that the jury had or needed to say, we don't really want anything to do with this.

01:08:49.500 They did.

01:08:49.820 The FBI looked really bad.

01:08:51.220 And this is something that the Sussman defense exploited throughout the entire trial.

01:08:55.100 And it really created this unique dynamic in the trial, because what we had was Special

01:09:00.780 Counsel John Durham calling all of these witnesses.

01:09:03.760 Many of them were FBI agents.

01:09:05.860 But some of those people, they may have been in on it.

01:09:08.760 They kind of may have been in on this scheme.

01:09:10.900 And so what we ended up seeing as the trial unfolded was kind of this bifurcation, kind

01:09:15.440 of this two-tier system that existed within the FBI.

01:09:18.540 You saw the higher up people on the seventh floor, they call it, kind of the upper echelon

01:09:24.480 decision makers at the FBI.

01:09:26.620 And then you had some of the people that you were describing down sort of on the lower level,

01:09:30.660 the actual analysts, the technical people who were unpacking all of the white papers

01:09:35.460 and the thumb drives.

01:09:37.440 And they knew from the very beginning that this was something that sounded like it was

01:09:41.880 sketchy.

01:09:42.460 But they got instructions from upper level at the FBI to say, basically, you continue to

01:09:47.340 investigate this.

01:09:48.180 And they conducted what's called a close hold, meaning they kept a lot of this information

01:09:52.840 close to the chest so that the lower level technical FBI analysts were not able to really

01:09:57.820 see the full story.

01:09:59.540 And a lot of this testimony came out at trial.

01:10:01.740 And the defense really used this, I thought, really well.

01:10:04.200 Obviously, they got a not guilty verdict.

01:10:05.920 So they used it to their advantage by sort of making this about an FBI screw up.

01:10:11.300 This isn't about Michael Sussman, according to them, lying to the FBI.

01:10:14.540 This is about a good citizen who went down, delivered this document because he was so

01:10:19.420 scared about Trump and Putin and Russia and all that stuff.

01:10:22.260 But that was all legitimate.

01:10:24.460 They're saying the FBI screwed it up with their investigation.

01:10:27.540 They didn't ask the appropriate questions.

01:10:29.880 And so the defense throughout the entirety of the trial kept sort of doing that.

01:10:33.620 And the government would call FBI witnesses.

01:10:35.960 The defense called FBI witnesses.

01:10:38.380 And kind of every single one of them was like, yeah, we kind of could have done something

01:10:42.600 a little bit better here.

01:10:43.360 We really did, you know, kind of screw up the chain of command.

01:10:47.060 We heard a lot of testimony about confidential human sources and the people who were creating

01:10:52.000 some of these white papers that Sussman brought over were sort of known to the FBI.

01:10:56.300 You know, they were confidential human sources, but their information that was working its way

01:11:00.420 up the chain didn't get communicated around appropriately within the FBI.

01:11:04.400 And so the defense just said it's your fault.

01:11:07.540 So basically, I mean, well, the way I see it is you have two sides that are in bed together.

01:11:11.900 Sussman, Hillary's lawyer, and the FBI, they all wanted the same thing.

01:11:18.060 Stop Trump.

01:11:19.180 Get Trump.

01:11:20.180 They all wanted the same thing.

01:11:21.420 I mean, the information that's come out shows that a supervisory agent overseeing the FBI's

01:11:28.260 Trump Russia probe, Joe Pientka, sent a note to the FBI special agent, Curtis Hyde, saying

01:11:34.220 people on the seventh floor to include director, meaning Comey, are fired up about this server,

01:11:39.160 this one that's allegedly connected from Trump to Alphabank.

01:11:41.940 That's in writing.

01:11:43.220 Then he messaged Hyde, making sure that a case had been opened, quote, reach out and put

01:11:47.040 tools on.

01:11:47.660 It's not an option.

01:11:48.860 We must do it.

01:11:50.760 Jonathan Turley saying they basically sounded like unindicted co-conspirators, the FBI.

01:11:55.760 So these guys are in there.

01:11:57.440 Even Baker, who was the he was the lawyer for the FBI.

01:12:00.140 He'd worked with Sussman together a long time ago.

01:12:02.220 He was there reluctantly.

01:12:03.580 He's like, OK, he came in.

01:12:06.100 Yes, he told me he wasn't there on behalf of any client.

01:12:08.960 And then Durham's lawyer for the prosecutor said, yo, I know.

01:12:14.040 And you wrote that in a text message explicitly.

01:12:16.320 You had it in a text message he sent to you.

01:12:18.380 Forgive me.

01:12:18.680 That's what happened.

01:12:19.200 And the text message sent to you the night before said, I'm coming over and I'm not coming

01:12:23.220 on behalf of any client.

01:12:24.500 And you didn't produce that to us, the prosecutors.

01:12:27.500 That was an important document.

01:12:29.120 Why didn't you produce that, Mr. Key Witness Baker of the FBI?

01:12:33.100 And Baker said, this is your investigation, not mine.

01:12:36.480 Nobody was there to help Durham.

01:12:37.960 Nobody, not the judge, not the jury, not the FBI agents, and certainly not Michael Sussman.

01:12:43.680 You're exactly right.

01:12:44.840 Every single person in there.

01:12:46.060 It was a really weird thing to see because normally I'm a criminal defense attorney.

01:12:49.800 Normally, when we are representing clients, we see the prosecution and the police officers

01:12:54.780 and all of their witnesses like BFFs, you know, best friends.

01:12:58.900 They are in total sync.

01:13:00.800 The prosecutor asks a question.

01:13:02.240 The police officer sort of ready, chomping at the bit to say the answer.

01:13:05.480 But we didn't get a lot of that here.

01:13:07.220 The witnesses were all sort of opposed, adversarial to the prosecution on both sides.

01:13:13.300 And even in a lot of the trial testimony, you mentioned some of the text messages that

01:13:17.380 were sort of being sent back and forth.

01:13:19.240 They were almost friends.

01:13:20.740 I mean, Michael Sussman and Jim Baker, Sussman met with Baker at the FBI.

01:13:25.300 They sat down and they had that meeting back in September 2016.

01:13:28.420 But before that, they were sending messages back and forth.

01:13:31.780 You know, they were sort of I would sort of joke that they go to the same cocktail parties,

01:13:35.280 you know, the part of the same social circles.

01:13:37.040 And before, during the actual meeting and after the meeting, Sussman continued to engage

01:13:43.080 with Jim Baker, sending him messages about him getting a new job over at Twitter, saying,

01:13:47.920 hey, Jim, congratulations on the new job.

01:13:49.620 I know you're going over there.

01:13:50.960 Jim responded and said, Sussman, I haven't even made this public yet.

01:13:54.360 You know, how do you know about all this?

01:13:55.940 And so there's a sort of very interconnected web of nefariousness that is really, really

01:14:03.020 pernicious.

01:14:03.520 And I think that today was a disappointing verdict because we really wanted to see more

01:14:08.000 of where this went.

01:14:10.360 Yeah, I mean, because what they needed to prove was that this guy Sussman went into the FBI

01:14:14.320 and that he and he lied by saying he was not there on behalf of a client when we all know

01:14:19.940 he was really there to represent the HRC campaign, which was his client.

01:14:24.160 I mean, we knew that there's only a splitting hairs like was that meeting was that request

01:14:28.060 on her behalf?

01:14:28.860 And he said no.

01:14:30.160 And Durham said yes.

01:14:31.420 So that was one.

01:14:32.500 Did he lie?

01:14:33.080 And by the way, the jury hasn't told us why they found him not guilty, but it was one

01:14:38.060 of these two things that they found he didn't lie.

01:14:41.100 And Baker, who's the main lawyer on the prosecution side, the main witness on the prosecution side,

01:14:45.920 he was the FBI attorney general counsel.

01:14:48.600 And he was the one who said, yeah, he told me he was there not on behalf of anybody.

01:14:52.020 But he was kind of sketchy on the stand a little.

01:14:54.240 It was that text message that got produced late that really put the lie to Sussman.

01:14:57.560 And Sussman was caught saying in a text, I'm coming over and I'm not representing anybody.

01:15:00.860 Anyway, there were problems around that, too, which I won't get into here.

01:15:04.420 Then the second question was, wasn't was it material was the lie material?

01:15:08.920 And I think this is where this all comes in, that the FBI knew that Sussman represented

01:15:13.760 Hillary.

01:15:14.580 The FBI didn't give two dams whether what he said, how he disclosed what he was there.

01:15:20.500 They couldn't have given a shit.

01:15:21.580 They they loved to investigate this.

01:15:23.560 They were like, yes, you can see the text messages.

01:15:25.480 Let's do this thing.

01:15:27.020 And Sussman's lawyer said everyone knew he represented Hillary.

01:15:31.680 Mr. Sussman has Hillary for America and DNC tattooed on his forehead.

01:15:36.500 And now the FBI so excited about this information that they don't even pass on to the investigators

01:15:42.020 that it came from Sussman, her lawyer, so excited about it that they instead said, oh,

01:15:46.300 we got it from justice.

01:15:47.580 Now they want to be like, oh, we were lied to and it misled us and we spent resources

01:15:52.800 where we wouldn't have.

01:15:53.820 Oh, bullshit.

01:15:54.700 I mean, I think I know the jury is biased towards Hillary, but I think even a fair jury 0.79

01:15:58.980 could have said, oh, please spare me.

01:16:00.980 We got better things to worry about.

01:16:02.200 Yeah, I don't disagree with that.

01:16:04.400 And there's there's a lot there.

01:16:06.500 Michael Sussman worked for this law firm called Perkins Coy, which was a major law firm for

01:16:13.340 Democratic campaigns for the last, I think, three election cycles.

01:16:17.280 So Mark Elias was another lawyer who worked at that law firm.

01:16:20.620 He represented Kerry, Obama.

01:16:22.480 And so, you know, this was kind of just the latest iteration of the Democratic team.

01:16:26.440 And the defense made a big point of that.

01:16:28.160 They said, yeah, everybody knew who Michael Sussman was.

01:16:29.980 Michael Sussman even had a badge to the FBI, right, to their headquarters.

01:16:34.140 He never worked at the FBI headquarters, but he was a national security lawyer and he had

01:16:37.960 all sorts of conferences that he did talking about all of these issues.

01:16:41.900 And Sussman was actually somebody who also worked on the, quote, Hillary email hack.

01:16:47.280 If you recall back during 2016, and I know you certainly do, Megan, but there was a lot

01:16:52.340 of activity about Hillary's email saying that her campaign got hacked and it was the WikiLeaks

01:16:56.440 saga and all of this stuff.

01:16:58.280 Well, Sussman was one of these lawyers that was sort of appointed to deal with that.

01:17:01.880 He was to run point with the FBI on a lot of that.

01:17:04.700 And so one of the arguments that the defense made was that they knew him from that.

01:17:09.800 You know, there were sort of these parallel things that were going on simultaneously.

01:17:13.420 Hillary had the WikiLeaks Russia hack.

01:17:16.400 But there was another Russia story, which was this Trump Alpha Bank collusion story that

01:17:22.900 was being run parallel.

01:17:24.540 And so at Perkins Coyne, Michael Sussman was the person in charge of the Hillary WikiLeaks

01:17:28.700 email saga.

01:17:30.200 And then they just sort of said, well, you know, why don't you run point on this?

01:17:33.540 And so he did send a text.

01:17:35.600 I'm sorry, Megan.

01:17:36.740 So let me ask you about that, because that's what's so infuriating about seeing Sussman come 1.00

01:17:39.900 out there and be like, it's been a difficult year for me and my family.

01:17:42.300 You foisted a lie on the FBI.

01:17:45.540 You foisted it on The New York Times.

01:17:47.480 You misled the country.

01:17:49.380 And frankly, for the Democrat listeners, he may have cost Hillary the election.

01:17:53.300 I mean, he and Robbie Mook, the campaign manager and the testimony we heard in this trial,

01:17:57.880 showed these guys, this brain trust cost her the election.

01:18:02.880 So you should be even more angry if you're a Democrat listening to that guy, because they

01:18:06.680 came up with this cockamamie story that even the researchers they were asking to push it

01:18:11.900 were like, no one's going to believe this bullshit.

01:18:14.360 And they were like, we're doing it.

01:18:16.060 It's going to be our October surprise.

01:18:18.140 That's what John Durham said overnight.

01:18:19.260 This is this was going to be their October surprise.

01:18:23.000 And they brought it to The New York Times, which didn't bite.

01:18:26.700 The reporter there was pretty savvy and was like, I smell a rat.

01:18:30.400 I'm not doing this.

01:18:31.840 And so they went to the FBI because they thought that would make the media take it seriously.

01:18:37.200 Oh, the FBI is investigating.

01:18:39.380 And still, The New York Times is like, but that hack brag slate was like, we'll publish

01:18:45.600 anything if it's bad for Trump.

01:18:47.640 So they did it immediately thereafter.

01:18:49.940 Hillary and Jake Sullivan, who's now the national security advisor to President Biden, but was

01:18:56.160 then working for her, immediately tweeted out like, oh, now the FBI is involved.

01:19:00.480 Oh, we definitely need to look into this.

01:19:02.680 Trump, Russia, Trump, Russia.

01:19:03.860 That was her October surprise.

01:19:05.280 It failed.

01:19:06.820 And what ultimately happened was the FBI said to The New York Times, don't publish anything

01:19:10.140 in case you are thinking about publishing until we look into this.

01:19:13.280 And those FBI analysts are the heroes of anybody.

01:19:15.620 The low guys on the totem pole who, notwithstanding the bullshit being fed to them by the higher

01:19:19.560 ups near Comey, said there's nothing here.

01:19:22.200 This is bullshit and there's nothing for us to pursue.

01:19:25.180 And The New York Times did wind up running a story, but it was about her.

01:19:29.260 It was about her and her emails and her server.

01:19:32.120 And do you remember then the Democrat meltdown that The New York Times would publish this

01:19:36.280 and that Comey would announce it and all that?

01:19:38.040 So the whole thing backfired.

01:19:40.700 It did.

01:19:41.420 Yeah, they were trying to feed sort of both sides.

01:19:43.820 They wanted the media to run with this story and they wanted the FBI to also run with the

01:19:48.260 story so that both sides could kind of buttress each other.

01:19:50.660 They wanted to take this idea that The New York Times or that the media pieces would run

01:19:54.860 with this.

01:19:55.540 They took it over to the FBI.

01:19:56.580 They say, we've got this national security problem here.

01:19:59.480 If Donald Trump is not caught and we don't sever this secret alpha bank communication

01:20:04.060 chain, America's over.

01:20:05.780 So they took that to the FBI and the FBI, they know, will act on this stuff or they were

01:20:10.960 presuming that they would act on it because if the media publishes it, well, what's going

01:20:14.680 to happen is the Russians will take down that secret communications channel and that's going

01:20:18.380 to make the FBI's job a lot more difficult.

01:20:20.560 So they fed it to the FBI, sort of saying it's about to be published, do something with it.

01:20:24.780 And then they took that same story that the FBI is investigating this and took it over

01:20:28.840 to the media and said, look, the FBI is investigating this.

01:20:31.320 You should write a story about it.

01:20:32.580 And it all was this October surprise.

01:20:35.240 There's a tweet that came out on October 31st back in 2016.

01:20:38.920 I believe it was the 31st or the 30th.

01:20:41.080 And it was Jake Sullivan.

01:20:42.780 It was Hillary Clinton.

01:20:43.580 And they put out a press relief saying Donald Trump collusion with alpha bank.

01:20:48.680 Now, a lot of that stuff didn't come into trial, but it was all part of this grand

01:20:52.740 conspiracy. And I think that they really did want to try to get this stuff out there.

01:20:57.560 When we were looking at a lot of the polls during the election season, everybody was saying

01:21:01.440 Hillary was going to run away with this thing and it wasn't even going to be close. 1.00

01:21:04.780 But they must have seen something a little bit differently.

01:21:07.200 And they really rushed this story out.

01:21:09.420 They published it.

01:21:10.260 It didn't work out well for them.

01:21:11.660 But it doesn't mean that the people who were behind it, the people who created these

01:21:15.080 white papers and all of these dossiers, they were all fake.

01:21:18.520 They were all not legitimate at all.

01:21:20.560 And I've talked to a lot of my friends and explained this to them and said, hey, remember

01:21:24.140 that story back then, five, six years ago, and explained to them that it was all illegitimate.

01:21:29.640 The FBI looked at it.

01:21:30.860 The actual analysts, the people who do this tech work, looked at it and said, there's

01:21:34.860 nothing here.

01:21:35.640 And they did it quickly, like within the afternoon.

01:21:38.080 But it still percolated around the FBI because I think a lot of people there wanted to see this

01:21:43.540 happen.

01:21:43.980 And remember, we're talking about a lot of the outgoing Obama people who were in the FBI at

01:21:48.440 that time.

01:21:49.260 And so people like Peter Strzok and Lisa Page, the FBI lovers, we have Andy McCabe.

01:21:53.960 You know, all of these individuals were strongly anti-Trump and they're all up on that seventh

01:21:58.320 floor.

01:21:59.020 They're the people who make the decision about that close hold and about what to do with

01:22:02.540 this information.

01:22:04.660 And the reason I've been so focused on this case is because I want to make sure that we

01:22:08.520 sort of memorialize this stuff down so we can see who these people are because Sussman

01:22:12.260 just got acquitted.

01:22:13.140 He's going to be out there back working at his law firm, getting involved in the next round

01:22:16.780 of election litigation.

01:22:17.920 Mark Elias, same story, right?

01:22:19.700 He runs Democracy Docket now, and they're filing election litigation all over the country,

01:22:24.140 motions to intervene and all sorts of stuff.

01:22:26.120 So these same actors are still going to be around for the foreseeable future, probably

01:22:30.020 engaging in a lot of these same types of activities in order to win elections.

01:22:33.600 They started these lies.

01:22:35.720 These are the guys who worked with her and Fusion GPS to start these lies that sent eventually

01:22:42.360 the FBI on another track on a wild goose chase, but certainly the nation on a wild goose chase

01:22:47.460 for the first two plus years of the Trump presidency.

01:22:49.960 So I don't give a damn how how hard his year has been.

01:22:53.620 I couldn't care less.

01:22:55.300 I want him on bended knee apologizing to me and to America for what he and his buddies put

01:23:02.660 us through.

01:23:03.100 And by the way, they didn't let in sort of the broad conspiracy with the Hillary campaign

01:23:07.380 to the trial, but they did put Robbie Mook on the stand, who was her campaign manager,

01:23:11.400 and he gave up the farm.

01:23:13.240 He testified that it was Hillary Clinton who personally approved them going to the Times

01:23:19.080 and and to the FBI and pushing this lie.

01:23:21.900 So we knew that.

01:23:23.120 But that brings us back to sort of your your you're kind of saying the whole thing is swampy.

01:23:27.680 It's swampy from beginning to end involving all parties other than Durham.

01:23:30.660 And that brings me to the jury.

01:23:32.900 OK, so that Robbie did testify to that.

01:23:35.880 And Hillary Clinton has this around her neck like an albatross. 0.99

01:23:38.800 This jury couldn't have cared less because, frankly, they're pretty swampy, too.

01:23:43.700 The this there's a great piece by Howie Carr in the Boston Herald from not long ago.

01:23:49.620 And he says in it, this is his description talking about the jury.

01:23:54.560 One juror acknowledged he'd contributed to Hillary's campaign.

01:23:57.320 Another thought she had but couldn't remember.

01:23:58.880 Another is a former bartender who donated to AOC.

01:24:02.000 Still another juror's husband worked on Hillary's 2008 campaign.

01:24:05.040 Yet another one defends supports defunding the police.

01:24:08.260 Yet they all got into the jury onto the jury.

01:24:10.720 After the trial started, still another juror recalled that her daughter was on some private

01:24:15.040 school crew team with Sussman's kid with Sussman, the defendant's kid.

01:24:19.960 The judge said not to worry about it and refused to excuse her.

01:24:22.900 Who is the judge?

01:24:23.580 You ask his name is Christopher Casey Cooper, appointed by Obama after his service on the

01:24:28.540 Obama 2008 transition team after law school.

01:24:31.360 Again, this is the judge.

01:24:32.140 He worked in the DOJ with the defendant.

01:24:35.440 What a coincidence.

01:24:36.640 Later, the judge was also employed in the same law firm as Eric Holder.

01:24:40.940 Obama's self-described wingman as attorney general.

01:24:43.740 Judge Cooper is married to a lawyer named Amy Jeffress.

01:24:46.420 In the Obama years, she worked as national security counselor to Eric Holder.

01:24:49.860 Now she's in private practice.

01:24:52.560 This is, again, the judge's wife.

01:24:54.360 And one of her clients is Lisa Page, the rabid Democrat lawyer who was fired from the 1.00

01:24:59.780 FBI for her extramarital affair with a crooked G-man, her rabid hatred of Trump and her participation 0.99

01:25:05.800 in another one of Hillary's disinformation campaigns. 1.00

01:25:08.900 Would you care to guess who presided over the wedding of the Democrat Judge Cooper and

01:25:12.680 his Democrat lawyer wife, Jeffress? 0.99

01:25:15.280 Merrick Garland.

01:25:17.060 My God, I can't.

01:25:19.140 I can't even.

01:25:20.800 It is.

01:25:21.440 It's very, very swampy.

01:25:22.780 And it made me nervous throughout the entire trial.

01:25:25.040 And, you know, it's D.C.

01:25:27.840 So my understanding is, you know, I'm an Arizona boy.

01:25:30.500 I'm across the whole country.

01:25:31.360 But it's like 95 percent Democratic every time they vote.

01:25:35.560 And part of the voir dire when they were going through and trying to pick the jurors, there

01:25:39.660 was one lady who said in there specifically, and she made it onto the final panel. 0.98

01:25:43.340 I don't know if she was released before they, you know, they released some jurors before

01:25:47.160 they get their final panel.

01:25:48.360 But she said in her line of questioning, the prosecutor asked her, you marked on here,

01:25:52.880 you had a strong dislike of Trump.

01:25:54.880 And she said, yeah, you know, Donald Trump is the worst, blah, blah, blah.

01:25:57.800 And he kind of just let her on the jury.

01:26:00.220 You know, he didn't really we didn't see a lot of strong objections or using his strikes,

01:26:04.140 any peremptories or a lot of that type of stuff or even real argument when a lot of these

01:26:08.440 jurors came out and said things like that, that they were strongly biased against Donald Trump.

01:26:12.380 And I don't know if that's because it's Washington, D.C. and you sort of have to deal with the jurors

01:26:17.380 that you get. And if every single person comes on and they're all Democrats, then, you know,

01:26:21.420 what can you do about that? You kind of have to play within the margins of those rules.

01:26:25.160 There were several of them, like you listed, that were very, very consequential, in my opinion.

01:26:29.540 You know, this is a political trial.

01:26:31.400 And so if somebody has strong political opinions, that's going to be consequential.

01:26:35.540 And in a case like this, John Durham is not prosecuting Hillary Clinton, per se, but kind

01:26:42.860 of he kind of is. And if he prosecutes and is successful against Michael Sussman, then the

01:26:48.500 domino effect might happen and that might spiral into other potential Democrats, maybe all the

01:26:54.160 way up to Hillary. And so now you have all of these Democrats on the jury there. And I'm wondering

01:26:58.340 how they can sort of solve the cognitive dissonance that exists in their minds for them to change

01:27:03.480 their vote as Democrats. We had people from the Peace Corps there. We had people who were, I mean,

01:27:08.960 almost almost every single person on the jury panel worked in D.C., right? They all worked for

01:27:13.240 the Department of Treasury or some of these big bureaucracies. And so you kind of know how

01:27:17.160 they're going to land. And if you now ask them a question, they're sitting in a jury box. They have

01:27:21.380 to render a verdict and say, I have to find my own team guilty of something really bad that is

01:27:27.760 really misinformation. That's disinformation. I mean, all of the epithets they throw about

01:27:32.860 everybody spreading misinformation and disinformation. Their team was doing it

01:27:36.200 with these fake fusion GPS white papers and dossiers. And so now they have to sort of reconcile

01:27:42.140 this in their minds and say, I have to vote guilty against my own team. I just wasn't sure that they'd

01:27:47.380 be able to do that. It's a challenge. It's a challenge for any of these political cases getting

01:27:51.460 getting tried in D.C. Just a couple of samplings. Curtis Hook tweets out, Hunter Biden gets off the hook

01:27:58.000 next. Just watch Governor Huckabee. O.J. Sussman. I mean, Michael Sussman acquitted by HRC donor infested

01:28:06.360 jury. I mean, not exactly an unfair way of putting it. And now back to Jonathan Turley, who tweets the

01:28:12.840 limitations on this trial only reinforces the need for a special counsel report. That's the thing.

01:28:19.280 Durham needs to write the summary report of what he found, what Hillary did, whether it can be indicted,

01:28:25.380 you know, person to person or not. Am I right? And will we ever see that? Because we have a

01:28:31.040 different attorney general now. Yeah, I hope so. I would love to see it. You know, I'm not sure that

01:28:35.940 we're going to see what exactly sort of I think we should see. But I do hope we get something out

01:28:40.940 of John Durham. I know that today they released a bunch of the exhibits. And so there's hundreds of

01:28:44.920 other exhibits that we'll be able to comb through, including some of the actual FBI records and things

01:28:50.460 that were not a part of the disclosure at the original outset of the case. And a lot of this stuff was

01:28:54.700 confidential. We're talking about FBI. Michael Sussman also met with the CIA. And so we didn't

01:29:00.100 get to see a lot of the stuff that was sort of in the coffers before the trial started. But now we

01:29:06.360 get to see some of that because it has closed and all of the exhibits are now public. So we're going

01:29:10.720 to go through those and see if there's, you know, other facets of this that may may allow further

01:29:17.100 prosecutions. We need a special counsel report because it was because Durham's investigation has been

01:29:21.860 much more wide ranging than just Michael Sussman. So he needs to, you know, give us the narrative,

01:29:27.560 like tell us what you found. He's been working for us. I think he will. And I think it'll leak if

01:29:32.000 for whatever reason Merrick Garland sees fit not to share it with us. OK, before I let you go,

01:29:36.980 got to ask you about this news on the SCOTUS leaker today. CNN exclusively reporting that they are now

01:29:43.720 the officials are escalating their search for the source of the leaked draft of the Roe versus Wade

01:29:48.260 allegedly being overturned opinion, taking steps to require law clerks to provide their cell phone

01:29:53.500 records and sign affidavits. Some are so alarmed, some clerks over the moves that they have reportedly

01:29:59.500 begun exploring whether to hire outside counsel. The exact language of the affidavits or the intended

01:30:04.900 scope of the cell phone search, not yet clear, not yet known if the court officials are asking

01:30:09.440 employees who are part of the permanent staff or just the one year law clerks for their phone

01:30:14.400 records. My reaction to this was what's what took them so long? They're just doing this now.

01:30:19.520 So what do you make of where that stands, Robert, and whether these clerks will be forced to fork over

01:30:24.120 their cell phone data, et cetera? Yeah, it's sort of like I think, you know, I don't have any kids,

01:30:29.320 but you say you say to your kids like you have enough. I give you this option to do this until

01:30:35.100 you screw it up type of a thing. You get the freedom until they screw it up. And I think that's kind

01:30:39.260 of the same thing that applies here. You know, the there was this nice tradition in the Supreme Court

01:30:43.600 where everybody was acting it with with respect and reverence for the entity. And that has obviously

01:30:49.960 been evaporated. And so you can't really expect to have the same candid conversations in the Supreme

01:30:55.680 Court anymore. And so if they got to change the rules, I think that's perfectly appropriate.

01:30:59.680 And it has been interesting to speculate. I don't know if if there's been more on this,

01:31:04.920 but on our channel on YouTube, we were sort of investigating a little bit who who the leaker was

01:31:09.380 and maybe where it came from, because people can start to piece these things together. You can see

01:31:13.220 where some of these interns, you know, who they work for, where they went to school,

01:31:16.740 what their LinkedIn profiles say and all of that stuff. And so there was already speculation

01:31:20.180 that this person had already been identified. But, you know, I certainly think that we need

01:31:25.620 to maintain and have the ability of our institutions to work and function appropriately without everything

01:31:31.280 becoming political. And if the Supreme Court wants to take steps to stop that type of stuff from

01:31:36.380 happening, I mean, you can't you can't blame them for that.

01:31:38.140 If it's taken the marshal this long to say, give me your cell phone records.

01:31:41.860 I really continue to have very little faith in her. I hope I'm going to be proven wrong.

01:31:47.720 Robert, I do have faith in you. Thank you so much for your analysis and for coming on. What a day we

01:31:52.300 were just going to talk about Sussman and wound up we got got the verdict.

01:31:55.380 Okay, we'll be right back with a special message involving Canadian Debbie and her brother.

01:32:04.840 Before we go, I want to take a moment to honor one of our best and bravest here in the New York

01:32:09.800 area. And that happens to be the brother of our beloved Canadian Debbie. Before she was Canadian

01:32:15.520 Debbie, she was New York City Debbie. And before that, she and her brother, Scott, were both Ohio

01:32:21.580 Murphys. And they grew up in Ohio. That's why she makes sense. And that's why he went into law

01:32:27.060 enforcement to people from Ohio make sense. And he has been serving on the NYPD for 21 years. But

01:32:34.300 today is his last day on the job. He started the police academy back in July of 2001. Think about

01:32:41.340 that right before 9-11. He was part of the first academy to graduate post 9-11. And what a time it

01:32:47.600 was. Started out working in Precinct 9 down in the East Village of Manhattan. But he's been serving

01:32:52.480 in the heart of Times Square pretty much ever since. Worked every New Year's Eve. Look, there's

01:32:56.800 Canadian Debbie, for those of you watching on YouTube later. Working in Times Square pretty

01:33:01.300 much every New Year's Eve. Canadian Debbie was there sometimes, too, because we used to work the

01:33:05.300 New Year's Eve shift back when I used to co-anchor that show with Bill Hemmer. So a great guy.

01:33:11.400 These cops don't get enough recognition for the risks they take every day to keep us safe,

01:33:15.500 right? Especially these days. And he served his full term. We'll get his full pension,

01:33:20.300 I think, after 21 years. He looks a little bit like you, Deb. And he deserves every bet. He's

01:33:24.580 going to go work in woodworking, we think, back in Ohio. Maybe start a customized woodworking

01:33:29.720 business, just like Abby's brother works in woodworking and made me the most beautiful bowl

01:33:35.940 for Christmas that she gave to me. And then, Abby, I didn't have the heart to tell you this,

01:33:39.740 but Stradwick broke it. She's horrified. She's horrified. But I'm thinking maybe Scott Murphy

01:33:46.680 can pick up where Stradwick left off. Anyway, thank you all for watching. Thank you for your

01:33:53.580 service, Scott. And don't forget to tune in the rest of the week because we'll cover the Amber Heard

01:33:57.500 Johnny Depp trial. We expect a verdict sometime soon. And Matt Walsh will be here on his new

01:34:01.020 documentary, What is a Woman? Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, 0.99

01:34:06.900 no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - May 31, 2022

The Reality of Biology, and Sussmann Found NOT Guilty, with Andrew Sullivan and Robert Gouveia ｜ Ep. 332

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