The Megyn Kelly Show - The Science of Love, Cheating, and Long-Lasting Relationships, with Dr. Helen Fisher

00:00:00.500 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:11.780 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. Today is all about love,

00:00:18.020 what it does to our brain, why it makes us crazy, and how to use science to help us find and more

00:00:24.820 importantly, retain lasting love, which is possible. Yay. And it's not just me speaking,

00:00:30.820 it's my expert. My guest today is biological anthropologist and senior research fellow at

00:00:37.280 the Kinsey Institute, Dr. Helen Fisher. Helen, thank you so much for being here.

00:00:42.960 I'm delighted to be here, Megyn. Thank you.

00:00:45.220 So let's just start with the optimistic note, which I've heard in your TED Talks and in your

00:00:50.420 podcast interviews you've done, lasting love and attachment, long lasting love is indeed possible.

00:00:58.840 No question about it that it's possible. And we've actually proven it in the brain. I mean,

00:01:03.980 I and my colleagues have now put over a hundred people into a brain scanner and studied the brain

00:01:08.040 circuitry of romantic love and attachment. And the first group were people who had just fallen

00:01:12.920 happily in love. The second were people who were rejected in love. And the third, just as you're

00:01:17.220 saying, are people who were in love long term, they kept on coming into the lab and say,

00:01:22.140 I'm still in love with him. I'm still in love with her. And these people were all married an average of

00:01:28.060 21 years. They were all in their 50s and 60s. The vast majority had adult children. And, and they said

00:01:37.540 that they were in love. So we put them in the brain scanner using fMRI. And sure enough, we found the

00:01:43.980 same activity in the same brain regions linked with intense romantic love that we found among

00:01:48.900 people who were just falling in love. But we also found something else, you know, before you put

00:01:54.200 people in this, these scanners, it's very expensive, very time consuming. You give them a lot of

00:01:58.740 questionnaires before you put them in the scanner. And so one of the questionnaires we put, asked them to

00:02:04.640 fill out was unhappiness. And we found three brain regions linked with long term happiness. Now,

00:02:12.160 psychologists will tell you all kinds of things about what happens, you know, how to make a happy

00:02:16.420 long term partnership, all good. But this is what happens in the brain. We found activity in three

00:02:22.620 brain regions, a brain region linked with empathy, a brain region linked with controlling your own stress

00:02:28.540 and your own emotions, and a brain region linked with what I call positive illusions, the ability to

00:02:35.200 overlook what you don't like about somebody and focus on what you do. So it's entirely possible

00:02:41.080 in one study I did, I asked 1500 long term married people whether they would marry the same person

00:02:47.220 again. And something like 82% said yes. So we're always hearing the bad news. But is the spouse in

00:02:53.340 the room when you do that question? No, but there's no question about it that people lie. They not only

00:03:00.340 lie to other people, but they lie to themselves. But brain scanning machines don't lie. And you can see

00:03:07.180 the activity in various brain regions, as they look at a photograph of their sweetheart. And so that's

00:03:13.200 pretty convincing. Okay, so in those happiness areas, like, does that apply to the beginning,

00:03:20.320 like the romantic love and the lust stage? Because I know we're going to get to those as well.

00:03:24.520 Yeah, we didn't, I didn't study that I didn't put in long term happiness questionnaires, of course,

00:03:29.920 when people have just fallen in love within the last six weeks. But you know what? Romantic love can be

00:03:36.060 triggered instantly. It's like a sleeping cat, it can be awake, awakened instantly, just like you can be

00:03:41.220 scared instantly, you can be angry instantly, you can be in love instantly, it's a brain region that

00:03:47.240 can be triggered. But feelings of deep attachment for somebody takes time. And that's, I think, one of

00:03:54.400 the things that we really see in a long term partnership, not only that feeling of intense

00:03:58.860 romantic love still, but also feelings of deep attachment, which is a different brain system.

00:04:03.880 All right, so I've heard you talk about those three stages, or I don't know if you'd call them

00:04:09.020 stages or just sort of areas of love, there's lust or sex drive, there's romantic love, that's the

00:04:15.440 Oh, my God, I'm in love the beginning. And then there's the longer attachment stage. And I want to

00:04:22.240 kick it off by talking to you about Bill Maher. It's a weird place to start. But he is a confirmed

00:04:29.440 bachelor. He loves women. He talks very openly about that fact, and about the fact that he's not

00:04:36.080 really interested in getting married or working on sort of the long long term relationship, because

00:04:41.100 he thinks the sacrifice is passion. And it was funny, because I was on a show one of the times,

00:04:48.200 and we were talking backstage. And I was like, I really want to disabuse you of this notion. I think

00:04:52.240 there can be passion, as you would say, Helen, in attachment, you know, in the long term version.

00:04:58.020 Good for you, Megan. Good for you.

00:04:59.760 He didn't agree, and he didn't want to hear it. And he thought I was being holier than thou. And I was

00:05:04.920 like, okay, wrong target. And I kind of moved on. But I maintain, right, that their passion can be

00:05:11.500 there for all three stages.

00:05:14.620 Absolutely. Well, first of all, very smart of you to not call them stages. I mean, originally, you said,

00:05:19.020 well, they basically are brain systems, three brain systems that evolved from mating and reproduction,

00:05:23.840 sex drive, feelings of intense romantic love, and feelings of deep attachment. And they're

00:05:29.180 different brain systems. They can operate together or apart separately. But in a long term, very happy

00:05:36.340 marriage, we found all three. They still were deeply interested in kissing and hugging, still,

00:05:43.320 at least at times, coming and going, feelings of intense romantic love, and an underlying thing of

00:05:48.860 deep attachment. But I just want to tell you something about him. I think that a lot of

00:05:57.360 people won't agree with me. But in a long term, very good marriage or relationship, I don't feel

00:06:02.260 you need to work. I mean, it's very popular in America to think that, oh, you have to do all

00:06:07.860 this work. I don't think that's true. And my colleague at the Kinsey Institute, Dr. Justin Garcia,

00:06:13.720 the two of us agree that you got to pick the right person. And if you've got the right person,

00:06:19.280 and that's what he hasn't done, he hasn't found the kind of person that we don't have to make

00:06:25.140 sacrifices, where you're dying to get home and talk to the person. You know, I mean, for example,

00:06:29.860 I got married, what, a year ago. Now I'm seven, I was married at 75. So I might have agreed with him

00:06:37.660 some time ago. But the bottom line is, when you find the right person, it's a pleasure. And I don't

00:06:46.340 know how old he is, but eventually, he may well find the right person. And I think there's tricks

00:06:51.620 too. I mean, for example, I and my sweetheart, we do LAT, living apart together. So I have my

00:06:58.440 apartment, he has his, I see him almost every night. But a couple nights a week, I'm out by myself,

00:07:05.820 I go see my girlfriends, I happen to love the theater and the arts, etc. And he's loves to read

00:07:10.900 and eat pizza. And I don't, I mean, I like to read. But bottom line is, so I mean, if you can find a

00:07:16.380 person who enables you to be who you really are, who enjoys and loves who you really are,

00:07:23.040 and lets you be yourself, you can find it can work. It's just that he hasn't met that person yet.

00:07:30.580 And he's gotten himself bogged down. And I think a good deal of psychology,

00:07:33.960 that long term partnerships take work. Yes, I tried to break through it. And I know what he's

00:07:38.620 talking about that that initial swoony feeling. But even when you are in a relationship, that's a

00:07:44.480 year or two, that initial swoony feeling doesn't necessarily last that long. But if if nurtured,

00:07:50.740 if you've chosen, well, it can it can grow into something very exciting. And that maintains the

00:07:55.400 heat when you want the heat, right? I think that's he doesn't want to give up the heat. And so I

00:07:59.760 I'm going to send this segment to him. And then we'll see what his response is.

00:08:03.860 Well, the bottom line is there's ways to keep the heat on, you know, and one of them is novelty,

00:08:07.420 novelty, novelty. You know, the basic brain system for romantic love is triggered by it's triggered

00:08:12.560 by the dopamine system. That's what gives you the focus, the energy, the elation, the optimism,

00:08:17.500 the craving for another person. And what you've got to do is keep triggering that brain system doing

00:08:22.680 novel things together. You know, I don't mean just swinging from chandeliers, just take your

00:08:29.440 bicycles off to dinner instead of taking the car, go someplace different for your summer vacation.

00:08:35.040 And this is one of the reasons that that, you know, when you go and take a vacation, you can

00:08:41.780 suddenly feel romance again, because it's so novel. And that novelty is triggering the dopamine system

00:08:47.420 and giving you those sensations again. I love that. Yes, I heard you. It was in one of your TED

00:08:53.580 talks or one of the things talking about how there was a guy who was really he really felt

00:08:58.820 a romantic attraction for this woman and she didn't feel the same. And then they went off on

00:09:04.040 a business trip to China, I think. And so he was like, this is my opportunity. It's it. There's

00:09:09.380 novelty and there's a new place. And tell us what happened. Oh, gosh, I love this story. I haven't told

00:09:15.780 this story in so long. Well, he was a true story. He was a young graduate student. He had studied my

00:09:21.160 work and that of my colleagues. And he knew that when you have a novel, do a novel thing with

00:09:27.540 somebody, it can drive that dopamine up in the brain and push you over that threshold into falling

00:09:33.000 in love. So anyway, he was going to China. He was madly in love with another graduate student. She was

00:09:37.920 not in love with him. And he said, OK, we're going to go to China. That's pretty exciting. So when they

00:09:43.840 were in China, big hotel, he said, well, would you go on a rickshaw ride with me? And she said,

00:09:50.780 sure. And off they go. And they're wheeling through the cars and the buses and the bicycles

00:09:56.220 and the streets. And she's, you know, squealing with enjoyment and holding onto his arm. And he kept

00:10:02.840 on thinking, oh, you know, this will do it. This is going to drive up the dopamine in her head and

00:10:09.000 she'll get off of this rickshaw and be thrilled with me. She'll fall in love with me. So they get

00:10:13.820 off the rickshaw. She throws her arms up. She says, wasn't that wonderful? And wasn't that rickshaw

00:10:19.960 driver handsome? So the bottom line is you can trigger this novelty, but you got to have it focused

00:10:27.920 on the right person. It's not necessarily going to come your way, but it's a good thing to remember

00:10:31.860 if you're in a committed relationship, too, that that novelty can have the same effect on you

00:10:35.340 and your partner. You say it could be as simple as picking a new recipe and cooking together.

00:10:40.400 As you say, it doesn't have to be anything. But I will tell you, having listened, you know,

00:10:44.300 I've been neck deep in Helen Fisher for a couple of weeks now, and I did buy myself some saucy new

00:10:49.800 things from my husband and you were not wrong. Oh, terrific, Megan.

00:10:55.500 We've been married going on 14 years now.

00:10:57.380 Tonight's Valentine's Day, of course. And I told my new husband to show up in a tuxedo.

00:11:04.040 Well, I love it. So this reminds me of something you wrote during COVID.

00:11:08.760 And it was about how to keep how to keep things fresh while you're in quarantine. But I thought

00:11:12.540 all of your suggestions could work. Thankfully, we're out of that period, could work at any point

00:11:17.280 in a relationship about how to keep it fresh, how to keep it novel. And this could be for people who

00:11:21.780 are dating a couple of years, too. It's just sort of newness at a moment's notice, newness without

00:11:26.900 that much effort. Can you tick off some of those things that were in your I think it was in the

00:11:31.500 Times? It was a column you had. Oh, sure. If I can remember them all,

00:11:35.180 you might know better than me. Well, there's some card games and some some like word games,

00:11:40.100 you know, like remember when. Absolutely. Play hard. You know, when you play with somebody,

00:11:44.660 you're driving dopamine up in the brain and and triggering feelings of optimism, focus, motivation

00:11:51.760 and energy. So sure. Well, first of all, even if you live in a very small place, you've got to find

00:11:57.300 a part of the room, a part of the house that's yours so that you can get away from the relationship

00:12:01.900 for a period of time and come back to it. I would also say don't show up in your sweatpants

00:12:08.160 for dinner. You know, eat in different parts of the house. Learn to cook new things together.

00:12:14.620 Go out and figure out the garden in a different way. Definitely play games together.

00:12:20.700 You know, have a comedy night, have a dress up night, make love in different parts of the house

00:12:29.480 or a different, you know, a different place. Novelty, novelty, novelty and surprise, read a

00:12:35.720 different book and come on and come to the to the table and talk to him about some or her about

00:12:41.420 something that's new and interesting and different. Find a different kinds of of things to watch together

00:12:46.560 on television. So, you know, it's it's all possible. I mean, the brain is easily tricked.

00:12:52.640 Yeah. And it's it's not that hard. I'll tell you, we do in my family, we do it, you know, all five of

00:12:56.840 us. We will do a wig night at random and everybody can show. I was a crazy collection of like just fun

00:13:02.900 wigs, different colors and all that. And then we'll do a hat night and we'll do a costume night.

00:13:08.080 We'll do a karaoke night, but just random. And that sort of keeps the whole family in on it. And it also

00:13:13.360 introduces like just a new element. Every night can be not every night, but more nights than normal

00:13:17.840 can be celebratory, fun, a little getaway without getting away. I think all that helps.

00:13:24.760 And then you've got days, weeks, months to laugh about it after it's all over. Oh, my God,

00:13:30.440 did you see that wig that my my little girl did? And oh, how about that moment when that? And you can

00:13:36.400 play charades is a good game. Murder in the Dark is when I always played as a child. What I'm going to do

00:13:42.620 tonight with my husband is play games. We have murder in the dark. Oh, murder in the dark. Oh,

00:13:48.860 I've said that as a child. Well, there's one person who's the who's the murderer. And this and and

00:13:55.240 there's somebody who is the sheriff or the the detective. And you everybody has a little there's

00:14:02.660 a little sheet of paper. And let's say you've got seven people playing. And one sheet of paper says

00:14:07.900 murderer. And the other says the sheriff or the the detective. So anyway, you put them all in a

00:14:14.380 hat. Everybody grabs their sheet of paper. They all know who the detective is. Nobody knows who

00:14:21.360 the murderer is. You turn out all the lights. The detective leaves the room and you mill around

00:14:25.860 in the room. And of course, the murderer knows who the murderer is. And in the dark, he stabs somebody

00:14:30.660 in the back, you know, just with their fist, but very lightly. At that point, they have to freeze.

00:14:36.320 Everybody has to freeze at that moment with the when the murderer, when the murder person gets

00:14:41.520 murdered. And everybody has to freeze except the murderer who can move until the lights are turned

00:14:47.340 on. Then the detective comes in and asks everybody questions. Everybody has to tell the truth except the

00:14:52.560 murder. It's hilarious. Yes, I love a good murder. Amazing. I loved it as a kid. But I love all kinds

00:15:04.560 of board games, too. And, you know, we play another one. That's it's so simple. We know it as celebrity.

00:15:10.560 I don't know. Maybe has another name, but it is so easy. All you need is paper and pen. And you each

00:15:16.580 person writes down the name of five, quote, celebrities, but it doesn't have to be a real celebrity. It could be,

00:15:21.220 you know, your Nana. But it has to be somebody who everyone in the family would know by the

00:15:25.780 description. Right. So it's like just celebrities within your family or outside. And you put it all

00:15:31.680 in the hat. And let's say I start. I've got the hat and I've got all everybody's entries and I've

00:15:35.900 got 25 entries in there. I pick it up and let's say let's say I read Madonna and I say, oh, she sings,

00:15:42.160 you know, holiday. She's blonde. She wears the bras with the boobs that stick out. You can't say her name,

00:15:47.400 but you can. And then they're like Madonna. And as soon as they say that, you throw the paper to

00:15:51.240 the side and your goal is to get through as many as you can. I think we do within 60 seconds.

00:15:56.940 And so you sort of try to rack it up. Anyway, it's funny. You go around and whoever gets does it.

00:16:00.760 And I think we call that salad bowl. That works. Yeah. And it's the same. It's the same thing.

00:16:07.640 I'm miserable at it because I don't know that many public people. But yours are all in the world of

00:16:13.340 academia. Everybody's like, don't play with Helen. No, no, no, definitely don't play with Helen.

00:16:18.740 But wait, let me circle back to your marriage and your living arrangement. I did read that.

00:16:24.620 I did read about your marriage and your living arrangement about how you have like your own

00:16:28.260 separate. I will I will do you and your love this. The courtesy of not referring you to Woody and

00:16:33.800 Mia because they they had a similar situation where they didn't live in the same place. But you

00:16:38.060 do. You just take two nights. That to me does not seem like something you could maintain when you

00:16:43.100 have young children like we do. If Doug were like, I'm going to go to the other apartment for two

00:16:46.760 nights away. I'd be like, oh, no, you are not. Yeah. You know, it's very interesting because I

00:16:51.400 talked to a man who was in that situation. He had a new baby. And, you know, and I was talking about

00:16:59.220 living apart together. And he said, we said, oh, Helen, if I could only have one night in a hotel room by

00:17:05.940 myself and just go to bed when I wanted, eat when I wanted and not be, you know, and the woman sitting

00:17:13.440 there, standing there listening to us said, oh, I'm sure your wife wouldn't like that. And I thought to

00:17:17.780 myself, maybe she would like that. Maybe she'd like to have the next night off and you take the job of being

00:17:23.760 with the children. So I think in a limited way, a little time apart, you know, I'm an anthropologist. I mean, for

00:17:32.200 millions of years, we lived in these little hunting and gathering societies, about 25 individuals

00:17:37.180 in the group. And the children were simply handed from one person to another. The job of parenting

00:17:43.900 has become so much more difficult in our modern world. I mean, people are so upset about single

00:17:49.800 mothers. In many respects, it's tough for a couple to raise children all by themselves. We really did

00:17:55.880 evolve in a group and in which children could wander from one parent role model to another.

00:18:04.680 And it took a lot of burden off of everybody. So, yes, it's a it's a it's a parenting is a very

00:18:13.080 rewarding, but can be very stressful. But it's true. You raise a good point because, I mean,

00:18:17.320 most of my friends in New York and I are on the older side in terms of mothering. And, you know,

00:18:23.200 our moms are either not capable of, you know, taking care of young kids or don't live in New

00:18:29.140 York. And so I don't want to. I mean, yeah, I don't want to. So you don't have that village.

00:18:34.960 No, you don't have the village. No, you can't afford to be manned down. It's like all it's got

00:18:38.980 all hands on deck. Now they're getting a little older. It's easier. But certainly when they were

00:18:41.860 toddlers, it was like, oh, my God, you're not going anywhere right there. Now they're 12, 10 and

00:18:46.360 eight. And it's super fun. Oh, good. It's I happen to love that age. You know, I make a lot of

00:18:51.820 speeches and you can really talk about love and sex to people that age because they're not they

00:18:56.780 haven't turned embarrassed. They're just curious about it. So, you know, once they've been 13,

00:19:02.660 14, they're doing too much giggling and too much purring and too much, you know, being embarrassed.

00:19:08.620 But the young are very just very interested in. And by the way, you know, these three brain systems,

00:19:13.820 young children can be in love. I mean, this is a brain system from the sex drive.

00:19:19.480 Oh, I wonder about this. Because, you know, puppy love is a phrase for a reason.

00:19:23.660 Yeah, it's a good idea. You know, the youngest person I ever met who was in love was two and a

00:19:29.140 half. And his mother, every single time, told me, every single time a particular little girl

00:19:35.060 would come over, he'd just sit right next to her and stroke her hair and gaze at her. And then

00:19:41.220 after she left, he'd be depressed for about an hour and a half. So it's a basic brain system.

00:19:46.400 How about any of your children? Are they in love? No one's been in love yet. But I will say my

00:19:51.280 my oldest child, Yates, when he was about six, I'd say we were he was learning how to swim or just

00:19:58.740 practicing his swimming at this pool. And there was a young she was probably 24 year old lifeguard who

00:20:05.600 was very cute. And boy, he loved to make his swimming lessons. And one day he went and she wasn't

00:20:12.380 there. And I said, he was so disappointed. He's like, where is she? And, and, and I said,

00:20:17.340 Yates, you really like her, don't you? And he said, Yes. And I said, Why do you like her so much?

00:20:23.680 And he said, Because she looks so good. Good for him. Well, I won't be the first mama. So

00:20:32.960 hold your hat. All right. So speaking of the young people had a hilarious conversation with one of my

00:20:40.060 staff before we started the interview about how you're going to help her redo her hinge profile

00:20:45.240 for the ancient people like myself who had no idea what hinge was. It's one of those online sites.

00:20:50.980 It's not a Tinder. She was quick to tell me it's not Tinder. And we're going to get into the younger

00:20:55.780 folks and the dating set in 2022. I'm so glad that I'm not a member of it. But Helen has got some

00:21:01.080 thoughts if you are in it or would like to know more about what the hell is happening there.

00:21:06.120 Very happy to have with us today biological anthropologist anthropologist, I'll get it again,

00:21:11.160 and senior research fellow at the Kinsey Institute, Dr. Helen Fisher. We'll be right back.

00:21:20.980 Okay, so let's spend a moment on the youngins, because I know that you were the official or are

00:21:27.940 the official sort of love consultant for match.com. You've got your own site chemistry.com. And they

00:21:34.320 came to you for a reason because they thought there must be some science and helping people connect.

00:21:39.480 Now, it's morphed into yes, there's Tinder, where I'm told you just go for just a hookup.

00:21:45.020 Um, there's Bumble, which my my colleague here tells me that's where you go. And only the woman

00:21:51.980 can invite the date. And then there is hinge where it's not just a Tinder. It's like, it can be

00:22:00.560 anything. But she swears she's just going on there for dates and potential relationships. But there's a

00:22:05.820 whole thought behind like, what do you put on there? What are you looking? You know, how do you find the

00:22:09.520 right person? What are your thoughts on it? Well, first of all, Tinder is not just a hookup site.

00:22:15.760 That's what everybody thinks. And I would have thought so too. But I spoke to the sociologist

00:22:21.540 that used to work with it. And, and she reported that a good 80% of the people even on Tinder are

00:22:27.960 looking for some sort of commitment. So and I've noticed that and I've been working with match,

00:22:34.420 I'm a consultant, I'm not on staff for the last 16 years. And it's remarkable how many people really

00:22:41.180 are looking for some sort of real partnership. Actually, it's not remarkable to me. But I think

00:22:46.120 it's remarkable to the general public. So anyway, I do study this. And of course, for the last 11 years,

00:22:54.160 with match, I've done an annual study called singles in America, we do not poll the match members.

00:23:00.900 This is a national representative sample of singles based on the US census. And of course,

00:23:06.680 I, every year, I create about 200 questions. We go out and we poll them in a very good place.

00:23:12.680 I come back with 1000s of data points and assemble them. But anyway, so here's some of the things that

00:23:18.840 we've been able to discover about that profile for for your colleague here. Number one, apparently

00:23:26.060 about six pictures of you is a good idea. Now, I don't know about Hinge, how many they let you have

00:23:32.280 or whatever. But the bottom line is, you want a picture of you that shows your background,

00:23:39.040 what your interests are, maybe another picture of you at work, maybe a picture of you at play,

00:23:46.000 either skiing or throwing a ball or with your dog or whatever. And you really want a good headshot.

00:23:53.500 So make an effort to get a good headshot and also a good whole figure shot. We are built to look for

00:24:02.380 certain kinds of people. And so you want to be careful about those, all those things. And be

00:24:07.940 honest, for God's sake, I was with a girlfriend, a couple of days ago, and she was on one of these

00:24:13.080 sites, and she was looking at a man, and this man had his arm around a girl. Now, what do you?

00:24:19.360 Does anybody want to go find a man who's got his arm around somebody else? I mean, it's ridiculous.

00:24:26.220 So anyway, be careful with those with those shots, a good headshot, a good body shot.

00:24:31.680 Let me jump in and ask you a question. So many people post pictures that are way better looking

00:24:37.080 than they are. They use the filter, they're trying to get the most attractive guy or gal possible.

00:24:42.060 And I always think that doesn't make any sense, because that may lure them into calling you,

00:24:46.240 but eventually they're going to see the real you without the filter. So wouldn't you want an

00:24:50.720 accurate, you know, nice, flattering, but accurate portrayal of the way you look?

00:24:56.400 There's no question about it. And one thing that's beginning to work against that, jeopardize that

00:25:01.340 kind of conning, is the real rise of video chatting. It's a new stage in the courtship process.

00:25:08.880 In the study I did just a couple of months, a few months ago, during the pandemic, video chatting

00:25:14.480 jumped from about 19% prior to the pandemic to about 27%. And millennials and Gen Z are leading

00:25:21.800 the way over 50% of Gen Z and about 45% of millennials are using video chatting before the

00:25:29.140 first date, which is really wonderful. You know, when you're video chatting, sex is off the table,

00:25:34.420 don't have to deal with whether you're going to kiss and hug, hold hands, money's off the table,

00:25:38.520 you don't have to decide whether you're going to go to a fancy place or just a coffee house.

00:25:42.220 And what they're reporting is that they're having more meaningful conversations,

00:25:46.980 more honesty and transparency, more self-disclosure, and that's men as well as women,

00:25:53.060 less interested in what you're looking like. We'll always be interested in what somebody looks like.

00:25:58.760 I mean, we are a walking billboard of who we are. And what you look like does say some things about

00:26:02.860 you. But they're much more interested now in whether you are fully employed and financially

00:26:07.800 stable. So bottom line is this thing of fancy photos that are not real you. They may well be

00:26:15.520 a part of the past and not the future.

00:26:18.900 And now really all you've shown is your insecurity, which is not really what you want to lead with.

00:26:22.960 Yeah. I will say though that, you know, I mean, people hate it when I say this and it,

00:26:27.940 you know, courtship is really not about honesty. It's about winning. And it's amazing. I've watched

00:26:32.700 40,000 people lie to me. Women lie about their weight and their age. Men lie about their height

00:26:39.000 and their financial status. But anyway, so get those pictures right. Another thing is definitely

00:26:45.100 work on that profile of who you are and what you want. It's not true that people are looking at just

00:26:50.820 the pictures. In my study with Matt, 68% of single cent, they really did study that profile.

00:26:58.300 And the one thing you want, you want to be optimistic. Nobody likes depressed people. That's

00:27:03.260 for openers. But you also want to be, forget sex. No discussions of sex. Forget the cliches.

00:27:13.240 Everybody wants somebody who can walk on the beach and have wine by the fire. Forget it.

00:27:17.700 Details, details, details. Instead of, oh, I had a wonderful day yesterday, say, oh, yesterday was

00:27:23.420 great. I hopped on my bike. I could feel the wind in my air. I went through the park and the

00:27:28.140 leaves were all scattering. I stopped for a cup of mochaccino or whatever. I mean, details,

00:27:34.380 details, details. Be optimistic and be honest about what you're really looking for. Instead

00:27:39.820 of saying, I like classical music, say, I just love Beethoven's, you know, fourth symphony,

00:27:44.820 or I just really like hip hop, or I really, you know, details, be honest. And also instead

00:27:51.100 instead of saying, I'm looking for someone who, use the word you, I hope that you will be thus and

00:28:00.380 such. And, you know, and if you can be funny, by the way, I mean, laughter drives up that dopamine

00:28:06.480 system and gives you real feelings of enthusiasm, optimism, energy, focus, motivation.

00:28:14.620 So good. Yeah. What were you going to say? In fact, yesterday, go ahead. Oh, I was, I was, I went, I

00:28:22.140 was, you know, a girlfriend came to me. And as I said, she was looking through these alternatives of

00:28:27.860 men. And, and one of them said, you know, I don't like cilantro. I started to laugh. I mean, that's

00:28:35.440 hilarious. I get it. It tastes weird. Yeah. And she said, well, I do like cilantro. And so maybe it's not

00:28:43.100 going to be a good match. I said, oh, give me a break, man. You can work this through, you know.

00:28:48.040 He's trying to give you a chuckle. Yeah, exactly. And, and I said to her, I tell her right back,

00:28:55.660 I love cilantro. Do you think this can work? Maybe we should try it. You know, something that's clever

00:29:00.560 that perks their energy. But you know what, there's two problems with the internet dating.

00:29:06.840 There's nothing wrong with these sites. All they are is introducing sites. That's all they do

00:29:12.700 is introduce you. But the problem is they're so new that we don't know how to use them.

00:29:18.300 And the first big problem and tell your colleague is don't binge. The problem is that the brain can

00:29:26.400 only cope with about five to nine options. We're not built for a million different options. And what

00:29:32.720 these people do is they, they go look, look, look, look, and they keep going. And after about nine

00:29:37.860 options, they can't even remember who these people are and they find nobody. So the bottom line is

00:29:43.240 after you've met nine people, and I mean met either in person or through video chatting who are within

00:29:50.400 your ballpark at all, get off the site and focus on one of them, at least one of them more because,

00:29:57.240 you know, because all the data show that the more you get to know somebody, the more you like them.

00:30:02.760 That's number one. Don't binge. Number two, think of reasons to say yes. Just because he likes cilantro

00:30:10.360 and you don't, it's not, don't give up. If he likes cats and you like dogs. The problem is that when you

00:30:17.480 first meet somebody, you know so little about them that you overweight what you do know. And that can

00:30:24.320 get you zooming into triggering romantic love, or it can get you zooming into saying, uh, never worked

00:30:29.560 for me. So the bottom line is overlook the negative. We've got a huge brain region linked

00:30:34.780 with what's called negativity bias. We remember the negative and that has been adaptive for millions

00:30:41.800 of years. It was adaptive to remember. It's nice to remember who likes you, but if you don't remember

00:30:46.120 who doesn't like you, you could die. So we remember the negative in almost all kinds of circumstances.

00:30:52.500 Overlook it. Positive illusions. Focus on what you do like and don't binge. And he, she is out there,

00:31:00.920 by the way. And, and speaking of the positive illusions, you were saying that when we were

00:31:05.320 talking about the, you know, more enduring attachment, uh, as an important thing. So that's

00:31:09.640 basically, yes, there's always gonna be something in your partner that you don't adore, you know,

00:31:14.740 that no one comes to you perfectly suited for you. Um, and it's about just redirecting your mind.

00:31:21.000 Yes, that's there. There's no reason to dwell on that. There are so many reasons you selected this

00:31:25.060 person. Go dwell there. Perfect. And that's exactly what I do. I think, well, you know,

00:31:31.840 such and such, but, oh man, is he funny. Oh, he's hilarious. He's so good in bed. It's easy to

00:31:38.720 remember the, you know, it's easy to, to, to make a good relationship. Got to start by picking the

00:31:43.680 right person. But, uh, then I don't think it's work. Tell Bill Maher that. Well, you know what you

00:31:49.620 mentioned about, you know, you think, you know what you want. And so you overweight the things

00:31:54.420 that, you know, um, I remember when I got together with Doug, my husband and Doug is my second marriage.

00:32:00.200 I had a starter marriage to a nice guy, Dan, but we weren't right for each other. And that ended in

00:32:04.820 divorce. And we both are now happily married to other people. So I met Doug and I remember complaining

00:32:09.960 when I was first dating Doug to my then therapist, Amy, I'm like, he's not like anyone I've ever dated.

00:32:15.980 And she's like, how is that a complaint? She's like, how did those other relationships work out?

00:32:24.120 I'm like, you have a good point. She said to me, you asked the universe to send you something

00:32:30.600 different. You know, when you first came to see me, it did. Will you listen? And I was like, oh my

00:32:37.120 gosh, she's so right. It's just a matter of being open-minded to this new person who's coming to me in

00:32:43.160 a totally different package and with different mannerisms and with different ideas than anything

00:32:47.980 I'm used to. That's so good. And you know what I say, you want a person who opens doors for you

00:32:54.640 instead of closes them. And that was the problem with Bill Meyer. You know, um, he feels that

00:33:00.040 everything, everybody that he's going to talk to is going to close doors. You got to have somebody

00:33:04.660 who's going to continually open doors intellectually, uh, physically, emotionally, uh, in all kinds of

00:33:12.380 ways. And they are out there.

00:33:15.100 Funny too. Another story about Doug, when we were dating, it was like a first date. I was like,

00:33:18.800 how tall are you? You're tall. And he said, uh, six two. And I said, really, you seem taller than

00:33:23.860 that. And he said, that's because I'm actually six two to your point about the men lying about their

00:33:30.800 right. Oh, that's very cute. It's just very good. I just remember when, you know, when my husband,

00:33:37.180 when I first, you know, got to know him, he walked in and, uh, uh, I was playing some Beethoven and I,

00:33:43.220 he said, what's that? And I said, Oh, that's Beethoven something. And he said, Oh, I hear he's

00:33:47.100 good. And I thought, Oh God, this guy doesn't know Beethoven. Oh my goodness. And then I realized

00:33:52.580 after a while, he was completely joking. Yes. You know, I hadn't gotten his sense of humor yet.

00:33:57.480 Uh, uh, and, uh, I mean, he was just being droll and et cetera. Yeah. Yeah. I got to get to know

00:34:03.220 somebody and all the data show that you get, you know, the more you get to know somebody,

00:34:07.800 the more you like, but you got to give them a chance. Think of reasons to say yes. Yes. Now,

00:34:13.920 wait, can I ask you? So you said you got married at age 75. Yeah. Isn't that something? And you had

00:34:19.720 you ever been married prior to that? I was married for about three months when I was 23 and I didn't want

00:34:25.560 to marry him when I went down the aisle, but I was so scared of my mother that I didn't dare.

00:34:30.540 But the bottom line is since then, I I've lived with two other men, both of them for over about

00:34:35.620 20 years. And I was crazy about both men. Uh, but for some reason I didn't want to marry them.

00:34:41.940 And, uh, this one, I would have married this guy, uh, John, his name is, I would have married him

00:34:46.960 at any age. He's the right guy. Well, I've heard you say that you've done some studying that suggests

00:34:52.740 a lot of people are living together longer in today's day and age because they're afraid they're

00:34:58.340 afraid. It's not because they're commitment phobes. It's that they don't want to make the wrong choice

00:35:03.400 and go through the dissolution of a marriage and all the stuff that comes with it. Is that,

00:35:08.720 was that something you could relate to personally or, you know, cause two 20 year

00:35:12.320 romances that didn't lead to marriage, people might wonder what, why, what was the choice there?

00:35:18.020 Yeah. Oh, well, I do want to tell you, uh, um, you, you're raising a much larger and very

00:35:23.460 interesting question, but in terms of me, the first man was 22 years older and I already thought

00:35:28.200 he drank too much. So I thought that's not going to work. You know, um, he was fascinating guy. I

00:35:33.780 mean, and hilariously funny and extremely charming and very dedicated to me, but I just thought the

00:35:39.440 age difference was in the long run night might not work. And, um, I, I put him in his grave and I was

00:35:45.360 very, you know, I was, I, I, I, after we broke up, uh, uh, he, we did quit drinking, which was fine.

00:35:52.520 And we came into solid friends and I, I buried him myself. So it was a wonderful relationship

00:35:58.380 from beginning to end, but it had a couple, you know, potholes that I didn't think I could

00:36:02.780 get through. And the second one, a fascinating man. We saw most of the world together. I've been

00:36:09.540 to North Korea with him. I've been to the highlands in New Guinea. He wanted to see every country in the

00:36:13.980 world. And, um, I've been all over the world with him and it was a wonderful, but there was,

00:36:19.580 there was, there was things I didn't trust and, uh, I would have married him, but, uh, there was

00:36:25.840 anyway, bottom line is I'm a happy, happy camper, but you've raised something else. It's really

00:36:30.820 important. Um, whereas I got it all with this one and if it's possible, certainly I did, but anyway,

00:36:36.820 the bottom line is, yes, we are marrying later and I call it slow love. I wrote an academic article on it.

00:36:43.420 You know, 50 years ago, people married in their early twenties. Now they're marrying in their late

00:36:48.540 twenties or early thirties. And what we're seeing is what I call slow love, this long period of

00:36:56.400 pre-commitment in which people, particularly the young, but of all ages, uh, are trying things out,

00:37:03.280 getting rid of what they don't want, learning more about themselves, trying things out. But they,

00:37:08.460 I tell you the young, I I'm crazy about millennials, as I've said, you know, they, they developed this

00:37:13.740 term DTR to find the relationship. They don't go into these things. They don't have their one night

00:37:19.460 stands and they don't have their friends with benefits, but if they don't think this is going

00:37:23.000 somewhere, they go, they get out. They, they have that discussion to find the relationship.

00:37:28.540 They sort things out and they leave it. They stick it out to go to the next stage. So bottom line is

00:37:34.340 we're marrying much later. And the reason that this is wonderful is I've looked in 80 cultures

00:37:40.760 through the demographic yearbooks of the United Nations. And my data goes from 1947 to 2011. So

00:37:46.440 whole different time periods in world history and over and over the later you marry, the more likely

00:37:53.540 you are to remain together. And I also have, um, a data, not personally, but as a study that I've read

00:38:00.020 about 300 Americans. And once again, the longer you court and the later you wed, the more likely

00:38:06.940 you are to remain together. And so I really do think as we are marrying later and later, what I call

00:38:13.140 slow love, I do think that we're going to see a continuation of relative family stability. Did you

00:38:19.820 know that the divorce rate today is less than it has been in the last 50 years? The divorce rate is

00:38:27.700 really quite low. Uh, I mean, some people were always going to divorce and by the way, some people

00:38:32.940 should, I mean, if you are being beaten up every time, you know, you gotta go. But the bottom line

00:38:38.640 is, uh, um, I, I do think that particularly the young, the young are very serious about, uh, about

00:38:47.120 romance. They want to get it right. And they're going to marry much later and they're going to walk

00:38:52.460 down those aisles. When they do, they're going to know who they've got. They're going to know the

00:38:56.240 water they've got. And they think they're going to know that they're going to keep who

00:39:00.200 they've got.

00:39:00.960 I know you've also, you've also pointed out that it's not, it's not like they're just

00:39:03.960 doing, um, like a contractual approach to it. It's not like they're being measured and

00:39:08.220 they're looking at the list of qualities and they're making it because I know I've read

00:39:11.660 that you, you, you say something to the effect of over 90% of women, over 85% of men all say

00:39:18.560 if, if a person had everything I wanted on paper, but I did not feel in love with them,

00:39:26.120 I would not marry them.

00:39:27.800 Oh, Megan, I thank you for doing your homework. That's a beautiful thing. Um, yes, uh, those

00:39:34.220 are two of my very favorite questions. You know, I do this singles in America study annually

00:39:38.400 with match. I've got data on over 55,000 Americans. It's a huge study now. It's an honest

00:39:44.000 study. It's real science. And those are my two favorite questions. Would you form a long

00:39:48.580 term committed relationship with somebody who you did not find sexually attractive? That's

00:39:53.440 one. And the second question, uh, would you form a long term commitment with somebody who

00:39:58.080 you, uh, who had had everything you were looking for, but you did not, you were not in love with

00:40:03.060 them. And what was interesting to me is the people least likely to compromise were people

00:40:09.220 over 60. It's the young who are going to compromise and end up marrying somebody who was,

00:40:15.740 who they're not necessarily sexually, um, crazy about or not in love with. And I thought at first,

00:40:21.020 well, this is weird, but you know, it's the young that have to reproduce. And if you find the perfect

00:40:26.680 girl, she's very good with all your friends. She's just one, she'll be a wonderful mother. Uh,

00:40:32.280 you find her hilariously funny. Uh, you find her or him very interesting to talk to,

00:40:37.660 but you don't have that real zip of passion. The young are more likely to make that commitment

00:40:43.820 anyway, for good Darwinian evolutionary reasons. You've got to pick a partner who can, um, you know,

00:40:50.040 who can, um, uh, give you healthy babies and, and help you, uh, raise them.

00:40:55.800 That is a good point. I have to round back to one awkward, uh, statement that I just got to follow

00:41:00.680 up on. Forgive me. When you say you, you put, you buried your first partner there yourself,

00:41:06.740 that you literally put him in his grave. You don't like, you just mean you were with him when

00:41:11.520 he died and you took care of the funeral arrangement. I scattered his ashes too.

00:41:16.040 Oh, wow. Okay. So it was like, you were, yeah, hands on.

00:41:20.360 Yeah. Hands on. It was very strange. I cannot tell you how bizarre it is because I,

00:41:24.700 his daughter wanted to scatter some too. And so she came over to my house and I put some newspaper

00:41:29.720 out on my desk and I dumped all these bones out and I looked at myself, what are you doing?

00:41:37.880 I think death is very arresting. Of course we all do, but, uh, you know, I mean, at least a baby

00:41:45.820 gets built for nine months. You get used to this, but anyway, yeah, no, I adored him. He was just

00:41:51.780 absolutely wonderful. Forgive me. I don't mean to like, but what I like, wait, are you telling me

00:41:57.460 that when they give you the ashes, if you pour them out, there's more than ash in there?

00:42:02.940 Well, yeah. Little chunks of bone. I scattered my father's ashes too. And, uh, and that was very

00:42:08.880 meaningful in a trout stream. He was a wonderful, he was in management at a time magazine and I adored

00:42:15.360 him. And, um, yeah, everybody else left after the funeral and I went and found a trout stream and

00:42:21.600 I've never told anybody this. I mean, even my personal life, but maybe your guests will be

00:42:27.260 bored silly, but the bottom line is I sang a Navajo poem and I found a trout stream and,

00:42:32.400 and I dumped the ashes in and it was very arresting because the wind blew and the ashes sort of went

00:42:39.160 into my, onto my face and hair. So, but anyway, the bottom line is, yeah, there's good men out there,

00:42:45.540 by the way, back to your son for just a minute. Um, who as a young boy was infatuated with somebody

00:42:53.220 it is worth it. You know, men fall in love faster than women do. They fall in love more often than

00:42:57.800 women do.

00:42:58.280 I believe it actually. Pardon me? I believe it. Yeah. At first I was like, really? But then I'm

00:43:03.400 thinking it through. Yeah. I do believe it. They, when they do find somebody that they're in love with,

00:43:07.960 they want to introduce them to friends and family sooner. Uh, in anthropology, you would call that

00:43:12.200 mate guarding, but anyway, uh, they want to move in sooner. Men have more intimate conversations with

00:43:17.720 their partners than women do with their partners. No wait, but is that because, and I'm not an

00:43:21.980 anthropologist, but, uh, or as I like to say, anthropologist, um, but is that because this is

00:43:27.820 my anecdotal shot at it, you know, women tend to be talkers and we have a lot of emotional targets

00:43:34.520 in our life, receptacles and so on. And we're used to just our feelings and men may be less so. And so

00:43:40.420 it's like, yes, I have an outlet for all these feelings. And I don't know, that's my guess, but what,

00:43:45.440 what is the reason for that? Well done. Well done. I think it's true. Um, but women are also the

00:43:51.120 picky sex. Uh, you know, they've got a lot to lose. I mean, for millions of years,

00:43:56.000 they not only had to carry that baby for nine months, you know, in the womb, but then, uh,

00:44:01.240 delivering it was very dangerous. And then everywhere in the world, more women, uh, spend

00:44:06.700 time raising children under the age of four. Now men also do it too, but for millions of years,

00:44:12.280 men went out hunting dangerous animals in order to come home with some food and also protected the,

00:44:18.280 the new little nuclear family and the, and the community. So men were doing their jobs,

00:44:23.280 but the hands on caring of very young children everywhere in the world, even in cultures where

00:44:28.600 women are extremely economically and socially sexually powerful. They spend more time, uh,

00:44:34.300 but, uh, with the, with the very young. So the bottom line is every year, um, I do this study with

00:44:40.300 match and, uh, every year, uh, I see that men are, are more, um, are less picky. Women are the picky sex

00:44:48.280 for good Darwinian evolutionary reasons. They got more childbearing, um, uh, uh, things they got to

00:44:55.360 do responsible. So now there's so much more to go over, including, uh, these are the four basic

00:45:00.240 brain systems. We're going to squeeze in a break. And then when we come back, I'm going to ask Dr.

00:45:03.460 Helen Fisher about the four basic brain system that she says will, will sort of classify whether

00:45:08.440 you're an explorer, a builder, a director, or a negotiator. And there are tests to figure out which

00:45:14.580 one you are. And it will tell you about, if not who to choose as your mate, maybe how to navigate

00:45:21.020 the relationship once you have chosen, uh, and to get over certain problems or to sort of work your

00:45:27.420 synergies together. It literally is science. You thought love was, you know, all emotion. It's not

00:45:33.980 she's studied it. She's done the brain scans and, uh, we'll pick it up there right after this break

00:45:39.560 when we do more with Helen Fisher. And remember, you can find the Megan Kelly show live on SiriusXM

00:45:44.520 true triumph channel one 11 every weekday at noon East, the full video show and clips by subscribing

00:45:49.160 to our YouTube channel, youtube.com slash Megan Kelly. If you prefer an audio podcast, subscribe.

00:45:54.940 And also please download on Apple, Spotify, Pandora stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts for

00:45:59.740 free. And there you can check out our full archives. Some great, great history there with more than 260

00:46:05.460 shows. So Helen, uh, before we get to the four sort of types of personalities, uh, just to short form

00:46:15.720 it, I wanted to round back on the other two things that I, cause I really did love this and you put it

00:46:19.520 in your times piece. Um, it was about keeping your partnership happy. And we've talked about positive

00:46:24.780 illusions, focus on the stuff that you do. Like don't dwell on the things you don't, that does no

00:46:29.520 good. And by the way, that's, that's a key for happiness in general. You know, every, I,

00:46:33.280 I tell my kids this, you know, whenever they get super upset about something that doesn't really

00:46:38.620 matter, it's like, does that need to be your upset? You know, is there something else going great in

00:46:42.760 your life right now that you can focus on? Cause you, and this is actually one of the other points

00:46:47.160 you want them to be empathetic. You want them to feel for people who are in trouble or in need

00:46:52.860 without letting it really pierce their own heart and happiness. It's a delicate balance. But your other

00:46:59.360 two points were, um, you do need, um, empathy with your partner and you do need to control your own

00:47:08.080 stress and emotions. Oh, that's a challenge for a lot of people, right? Controlling your stress

00:47:14.420 and emotions when you're dealing with the person who's not supposed to be leaving you, right? So

00:47:18.260 this is a person in front of whom you're supposed to, well, frankly, be your worst selves at times.

00:47:22.700 Well, I think there's more tricks to this trade. And, uh, the one that the other things that I

00:47:28.400 would say is, uh, yeah, that's right. I mean, do you try to be your worst self around your

00:47:32.240 girlfriends or do you try to be your worst self around work? I mean, this is, you know,

00:47:36.880 you've just won life's greatest prize, which is a mating partner and a life partner. It's worth

00:47:42.300 respecting that every day. You know, as I mean, it was Confucius who said the way out is through the

00:47:47.580 door and people can take the way out. And I do think that it's very worth, um, just simply

00:47:54.440 understanding that, uh, it's one day at a time or it is for me. Uh, and, um, I mean, even if you're

00:48:00.500 married and with small children, uh, uh, it's worth really respecting this person. But anyway,

00:48:05.440 I just want to say some other things. If in a long-term good partnership, I think what I would do

00:48:10.760 is try to keep all three of these basic brain systems alive. Sex drive, feelings of intense romantic

00:48:16.860 love and feelings of deep attachment. So want to keep the sex drive a lot, have sex. Um, you know,

00:48:22.520 it drives up the testosterone system and you want to have more sex. The less you have, less you want

00:48:27.240 more, you have the more you want. And sex is very good for you. Uh, it can trigger feelings of romantic

00:48:33.700 love, any kind of stimulation of the genitals that can drive up that dopamine system and sustain

00:48:38.300 feelings of romantic love. And with the orgasm, uh, there's a real flood of oxytocin linked with

00:48:43.980 feelings of attachment. So when you trigger the sex drive, you're not only helping with the sex drive,

00:48:49.160 which is very good for the body and the mind, if you like the person. Um, but it's also good for

00:48:53.880 triggering romantic love and feelings of attachment. So we talked about it before in terms of romantic

00:48:59.560 love, novelty, novelty, novelty, do novel things together. And the third, you want to sustain feelings

00:49:06.180 of deep attachment with somebody. Um, the thing to do is to, um, stay in touch, walk arm in arm, hold

00:49:14.380 hands, kiss. When you kiss somebody who you know, well, drives up oxytocin in the brain, gives you

00:49:19.440 feelings of attachment. Get rid of the two armchairs and sit on the same couch together to watch television

00:49:25.040 so that you're in touch, uh, learn to at least start the evening, um, uh, sleeping in the person's

00:49:31.320 arms, uh, uh, which also will drive up the oxytocin. So stay in touch, get all three of these

00:49:37.300 basic brain systems, um, going for you. And last but not least, this is really strange, but apparently

00:49:43.540 they now say, this is not my data, uh, it's good academic data, say nice things to your partner.

00:49:49.640 Um, and what that does actually is it drives up the, it reduces cortisol, the stress hormone,

00:49:56.320 uh, it, uh, uh, reduces cholesterol, uh, it, uh, reduces blood pressure, uh, and it boosts the immune

00:50:03.620 system, not only in them, but in you. So keep all three of these basic brain systems alive, uh, uh,

00:50:11.400 and, uh, and say nice things. This is what the brain says. Now, I mean, if you want to just talk about

00:50:17.540 what psychologists say, uh, I think the best, um, uh, ideas are, um, uh, are that of, excuse me,

00:50:25.140 uh, that of, um, oh, God, I've forgotten his name at the moment, um, Gottman, John Gottman. He says,

00:50:31.260 you know, don't show contempt, uh, don't criticize, uh, don't be defensive and don't, um, just stonewall it

00:50:38.740 and just listen and don't say anything. So this, but you got to pick the right person. You do all those

00:50:45.620 have it. I'll tell you what I sent my husband a text just today that I don't think, I don't think

00:50:51.460 you'll mind, but I read, um, I just want you to know you're hot, sexy, you're smart. And I'm so

00:50:55.900 glad I married you. And he wrote back, I'm the lucky one. Oh, I got the same thing from mine.

00:51:04.220 He said that he was the lucky one. And I wrote back and I said, man, I'm the lucky one.

00:51:09.260 You know what? It's like, and it's not that there are no good guys out there. Cause I were good gals.

00:51:13.980 And I know a lot of people feel like, Oh, shut up. You found the only one. That's how I felt

00:51:17.700 before I met Doug. But there are ways of picking somebody who will work for you. Even in this sea

00:51:23.560 of crowded people who you feel like none of them is right for you. There, there's actually some

00:51:27.740 science behind what might work well for you. And thankfully we have the woman who's done that

00:51:33.180 research. Dr. Helen Fisher as our guest today, we'll pick it up right there after this quick break.

00:51:43.980 Are you an explorer, builder, director, or negotiator when it comes to love? So first

00:51:51.460 of all, just set the stage. What are these four things and how can they be useful to us in

00:51:54.820 understanding? Well, this all started, you know, when Match came to me 16 years ago and they asked

00:51:59.120 me, why do you fall in love with one person rather than another? And I said to them, well, you know,

00:52:05.780 there's all kinds of things that we already know. We do tend to fall in love with somebody from the

00:52:10.140 same socioeconomic and ethnic background, same general level of intelligence and good looks

00:52:14.800 and education, somebody with your religious and social values, and somebody with your economic

00:52:20.620 and reproductive goals. So there's a lot of cultural things, but you know, you can walk into a room

00:52:26.000 and everybody's from your background and level of education and good looks, and you don't fall in

00:52:31.000 love with all of them. So I began to think, okay, about 50% of who you are does come out of your

00:52:37.040 biology. I mean, we know that some people are better at math, some are better at singing on

00:52:42.040 tune, some are better at shooting a basketball, et cetera, et cetera. So I began to think to myself,

00:52:46.880 hmm, why don't I take a look at the biology of personality, the second half of that puzzle?

00:52:52.320 Because people will say, well, we have chemistry or we don't have chemistry. Are we naturally drawn

00:52:58.120 to some people rather than others? So anyway, I looked through 40 years of biological literature and

00:53:03.960 I found all kinds of systems in the brain, but most of them keep the heart beating or the eyes

00:53:08.480 blinking. They're not linked with any personality trait, but there are four basic brain systems.

00:53:14.880 Each one of them is linked with a constellation, a suite, a bunch of personality traits, the dopamine,

00:53:21.420 serotonin, testosterone, and estrogen system. So I created this questionnaire that you've just

00:53:26.740 mentioned. It's called the Fisher Temperament Inventory. You can get it in any of my books or

00:53:31.280 even on some of my websites, certainly all over the internet. Anyway, and people who are very

00:53:37.780 expressive, the traits in the dopamine system I call, as Megan, you mentioned, explorers. These

00:53:44.080 people are risk-taking, novelty-seeking, curious, creative, spontaneous, energetic, mentally flexible

00:53:51.800 people. And they're drawn to people like themselves. Explorers go for explorers. The second

00:53:59.640 style of thinking and behaving is like with the serotonin system. These people I call builders.

00:54:04.320 Not a great term, but 15 million people have taken my questionnaire, so I'm not stuck with it. But

00:54:08.500 anyway, the bottom line is these people are traditional, conventional. They follow the rules.

00:54:13.640 They respect authority. They're detail-oriented. They tend to be religious, but not always.

00:54:19.300 Loyalty is very important to them. And they're also drawn to people like themselves. A good

00:54:25.640 example is Mike Pence. Another good example would be, I think, Queen Elizabeth or Mike

00:54:30.920 and Mitt Romney. They're traditional people drawn to people like themselves. In those two styles of

00:54:38.020 thinking and behaving, you're linked. They're drawn to their similarity. In the other two cases,

00:54:43.580 people are drawn to their opposite. High testosterone, what I call directors, are drawn to high estrogen

00:54:50.320 negotiators and vice versa. So, excuse me, if you're very high on the testosterone system,

00:54:57.080 directors, and this is women as well as men. Margaret Thatcher is a good example. I think Hillary

00:55:01.620 Clinton actually is very high testosterone. These people, they're analytical, logical, direct, decisive,

00:55:09.240 tough-minded, good at things like math, engineering, computers. Music is very spatial. And they're drawn

00:55:15.160 to their opposite, the negotiators, the high estrogen. People who see the big picture, see

00:55:19.780 long-term, holistic, contextual thinkers, imaginative people, people who are good at reading, posture,

00:55:26.680 gesture, tone of voice, people who are trusting and compassionate. So the bottom line is there are

00:55:31.860 four styles of thinking and behaving. In two cases, similarity attracts, and in two cases, opposites

00:55:37.060 attract. But the important thing is, unlike any other questionnaire on the market, this questionnaire

00:55:42.820 measures how you are in all four of them, and then gives you the printout. The brain doesn't work in

00:55:48.500 buckets. You're not this or that. So for example, I am really an explorer negotiator. And I would guess

00:55:54.240 that, Megan, you are too. But anyway. And so my husband is an explorer like me, high dopamine,

00:56:01.000 curious, creative, spontaneous, energetic, works perfectly. He's higher on testosterone, and I'm higher

00:56:07.100 on estrogen, also works perfectly. He's higher on the serotonin system. He's more inclined to follow

00:56:14.500 a rule just because it's a rule than I am. I mean, I'll follow a rule. I don't want to be roadkill.

00:56:18.600 I follow the rules of the road. But if it doesn't make sense to me, I'm not inclined to do it.

00:56:22.580 And he's more inclined. So then you have to figure out a workaround. And one example in our life is,

00:56:29.620 you know, we were going to the movies. And I said, sweetheart, do you have any water in your

00:56:37.160 backpack? He said, oh, yeah. And I said, well, we could drink it in the movie house. And he said,

00:56:42.060 no, you can't. You can't bring food or drink into a movie house. You'd better buy it at the

00:56:46.180 concession stand. I wouldn't have thought of that. So what do you do? You buy it at a concession stand.

00:56:52.620 The problem is so many people see the problems in their relationship is it's about me. It's not

00:56:59.660 always about me. It could be who this person is. And once you understand that, you can respect it

00:57:07.740 and you can find a workaround. Right. Like I heard you saying one interview,

00:57:12.880 if you have somebody who just never wants to leave the house, I mean, they're just

00:57:15.820 agoraphobic or they just they just hate going outside. They love their routine. And you're more

00:57:20.640 of an adventure where you want to explore and you want to see the world and you want to try new

00:57:24.560 restaurants. You know, it doesn't bode very well. You can try to find workarounds, but you should be

00:57:30.440 smart going into it that that's going to be a big challenge. Way out is through the door. You know,

00:57:35.560 I do some clinical work. I would say I'm not a psychologist, but they come to me because they

00:57:41.280 want to know this material. And this couple came to me. They were dying to be married. They weren't sure

00:57:47.820 whether they should marry each other. And it's exactly what you just explained. She wanted to

00:57:52.000 open a nail salon. That's an entrepreneur. And in her spare time, she liked to do rock climbing.

00:57:57.700 He wanted to and she wanted to have sex every night. He wanted to have sex every two weeks.

00:58:02.380 In his spare time, he wanted to watch television. And he worked at one of New York's

00:58:07.660 airports stamping passports, which is a very rote, lack of imagination, detail-oriented job.

00:58:17.180 And I couldn't see how this marriage could work. And unfortunately, they did not marry. And he ended

00:58:22.680 up coming back and finding somebody like himself. So yes, I've learned a great deal, you know,

00:58:29.040 from discovering these styles of thinking and behavior. And once you understand them,

00:58:34.140 you see them everywhere. I mean, for example, with Mike Pence, I was positive that that man would go

00:58:40.140 in and ratify or, you know, the electoral college votes, because he follows the rules. That's who he

00:58:47.980 is. That's what he's made. You know, I so I took the test. And I am a negotiator is that's my rising

00:58:55.520 sign. I'm a rising negotiator. But my main thing was a director. And one of the weird things,

00:59:04.040 taking the test was, I remember taking the direct because the way Helen does the test is you sort

00:59:09.380 of take four of them. And they ask you questions that would, you know, if you have a very high score

00:59:13.800 on one, that's probably going to be the one if it outweighs the others. Anyway, I remember taking

00:59:18.340 the one that seemed to be asking if I were if I were a director, and I had extremes. It was like,

00:59:24.040 no to the math, no to the science, you know, no to being a strong decision maker. But I was really

00:59:30.460 strong on some of the other categories, some of the other traits trying to pull up what they were

00:59:34.660 here. It is that I that I did agree with testosterone system, analytical and strategic

00:59:40.220 thinking 100% tough minded, direct, decisive. Yes, I agreed with all that. Right. So it was like,

00:59:48.760 I had a very strong pull to many of its characteristics and a very negative pull. So I'm

00:59:53.820 like, I don't know what this makes me. Well, it sounds like you've got those traits that you

00:59:57.860 are, you know, that you are strategic. And I said tough minded, but not good at math. I mean,

01:00:05.580 nobody has all of the traits of all of them. But we've got some more than others.

01:00:12.820 Wait, so am I? So I guess negotiator isn't my rising. Wait a minute. Yeah, yeah. Negotiator was

01:00:17.140 my husband's rise arising. That's it. I was director explorer rising and he was director negotiator

01:00:23.080 rising. Okay, perfect. Explain Doug's to me because he's 67% director. And then he's like

01:00:29.680 basically 60, 62 or 64% on everything else. He's just all 60s. You know, you can have a lot of

01:00:36.240 traits in each of these four systems. By the way, I've studied, you know, 15 million people have taken

01:00:41.180 this questionnaire in 40 countries. And and I've studied 100,000 of them here and there. And I've

01:00:47.780 never found two people who answered that question, the questionnaire the same way. And I've never met

01:00:53.200 two people who are alike. And I'm an identical twin. And even the two of us are not exactly alike. No

01:00:59.500 two people are. But what's really cool is, okay, you're both high on explorer.

01:01:04.720 Mm hmm. So we're both directors. He's his rising is negotiator. My rising is explorer. Right? I think

01:01:11.200 that's I have I finally said it. His test is right next to mine. So that's why I'm screwing it up. So wait,

01:01:15.880 I'm looking at mine for sure.

01:01:17.780 Director, 62% and the next highest is explorer. That's me.

01:01:22.800 Okay, that's you. Explorer, director or director, explorer. Testosterone and dopamine. And he is

01:01:30.120 dopamine and estrogen.

01:01:32.280 And he is number one is director. And number two, just by a smidge is negotiator. But explorer and builder

01:01:41.440 are close thereafter. Okay, so about 13% of people will respond quite equally on them all. That's

01:01:52.720 probably I don't know what he does for a living. But that's probably right. A writer. Yeah. That's it.

01:01:58.840 That's where the estrogen is. So what's interesting is your director and his negotiator that you're that but he's also high on. Well, do you? This is two directors that could cause some trouble.

01:02:12.180 So that's a funny thing. I heard I've heard you say that like director or director that that director tends to want the opposite.

01:02:16.900 And we're two directors, but it were very like the things that I guarantee you, I was like, no, and he was a yes, I haven't seen his test. But he was good at science. He is good at math. He is a very good decision maker. He's strong. Like, yes, this is what we should do. And I'm more like, I don't know. We'll figure it out. You know, he's more like, let's make the schedule. And I'm more like, you know, so he's, he's sort of more regimented in that way. And strong in terms

01:02:46.900 way more sort of be like, in that in those categories. But like, professionally, I'm, I'm very driven. I'm very analytical. I'm very logical. I'm very confrontational. I'm very direct, like all those things that we're factoring in there.

01:03:00.360 That's very cool. You know, so somehow balances it works.

01:03:04.280 That's, you know, it's very interesting. I wish you what I'll do is I'm going to send you my second generation questionnaire, because I asked you to take this question. It's called the neuro color questionnaire.

01:03:13.680 At work, and outside of work. And it'll be very interesting, because you were saying at work, you're, you're tough minded, you're decision making, you're just focused. And that's probably why you've had such a wonderful career. You know, but at home, I'm not, I'm not as much.

01:03:31.060 Yeah, that's right. And by the way, I've often asked people, you know, which is the real you? And which is the real you?

01:03:39.440 They're both real. I don't know. It's like, I, I care, like the things I care deeply about the news, but like, do I really care deeply, you know, which particular softball league the kid is in? Nah, not really. Like, like, as they get older, and those things start to matter more, I'll care more. But for the most part, like, I don't get obsessed over, you know, what Junior is going to be doing for, you know, two weeks in July. Like, it's, you know what I mean? Like, I just don't put my energy there.

01:04:03.440 I think the explorer in you. I think the explorer is, you know, live and let live, you know, let's be relaxed about this, et cetera, et cetera. But which is more tiring for you, at work or at home?

01:04:16.100 Oh, that's funny. Well, which personality style, the director or the negotiator, which is, or, yeah, which is more, because I always ask this. Now, for example, when I ask people at Deloitte, home is more tiring, because they can really be themselves at work.

01:04:36.500 In a, I did a speech in Singapore some time ago, and it was a lot of women working for Exo Nobel, which is a paint and finishing company. And almost everybody is a real high powered engineer. And these women said, at work, I've got to do that tough minded in a strategic, you know, world, but I can really be myself at home. So it's valuable to know, you know, which is more tiring. I mean, we can, we can act out of character.

01:05:03.760 Helen, I feel like I've, I've achieved stasis on that front. You know, I will probably would have given you a different answer about 10 years ago where my job exhausted me. It was just never stopped. It just nonstop and very demanding. And, you know, there were, when I was on the air for that one hour, I loved it, but all the hours outside of that were just a grind. Now I'm in this place where it's good. I, my work is not exhausting. It's fun. And I look forward to it. And my kids have aged up. So they're also not exhausting, you know, like back then too, they were little and toddlers, like a

01:05:33.700 four, a two and a newborn. That's hard. That is hard labor. So no wonder I was so unhappy during that particular portion of my life. Anyway, now I'm good. Now I'm happy in both places.

01:05:46.940 Yeah, apparently middle age is the least happy. The younger, when I've done studies of this, the very young are really quite happy. And they're very optimistic. And, you know, you get through middle age, which is very family and very demanding. And then you get older.

01:06:00.180 And I'm, I'm, I'm middle age. I'm 51.

01:06:03.180 Well, your children are growing up though now. And you're sliding into, to more and more happiness, I would think.

01:06:10.960 Am I crossing over into elderly? Is that what you're telling me?

01:06:13.720 No, I certainly wouldn't. I'm a lot older than you and I don't feel even slightly elderly.

01:06:18.500 We're middle age for a long time these days. You know, it's just a beautiful thing.

01:06:22.580 All, every age group has expanded. Childhood has expanded.

01:06:26.260 And although I actually think the pandemic's changed that middle age has expanded and senior citizens has expanded.

01:06:34.820 A lot of people think that middle age should now be up to age 85 unless you've got some sort of real problem.

01:06:40.320 But what's interesting is, you know, I just did this study with Match last August and I found a historic change in the young.

01:06:48.740 And what they are now is what I call post-traumatic growth.

01:06:53.320 They have grown up. The bad boy, the bad girl are out.

01:06:57.040 What they want now is emotional maturity.

01:06:59.460 And sure enough, in 2019, 58% of singles wanted a partner who wanted to marry.

01:07:06.180 Today, 76% want a partner who wants to marry.

01:07:10.520 Now, I think they'll still do this slow love, long period of living together before they settle down.

01:07:15.480 But I think we I think that we're going to see more and more stability in partnerships.

01:07:24.360 No, kid. I don't think that 51 is ancient.

01:07:27.480 I think it's still a kid.

01:07:29.260 That's fascinating, though.

01:07:30.180 So do you so do you think then that, you know, because we've been writing and talking about the low birth rates in America over the past couple of years and it feels kind of pessimistic and, you know, you look at the younger generation like that.

01:07:43.220 Have they given up on family? They're just not going to get married.

01:07:45.700 They're not going to do what we all did, which is get married, have a couple of kids.

01:07:49.620 Do you believe that they will get married and they probably will have kids?

01:07:53.760 I'm positive they will get all of our data suggests that they are going to settle down.

01:08:00.900 Yes, I do not think that they're going to have a lot of kids.

01:08:04.760 And in fact, this last very smart of you to ask, you know, this is only a few months ago, middle of this pandemic.

01:08:11.400 And we asked whether you want to have a partner who wanted to have children prior to the pandemic.

01:08:16.420 About 80% said, yes, I do not only want to get married, but I want to have children.

01:08:20.780 And just a few months ago, 61%, a 19% plummet in how many children that they want to have.

01:08:30.600 But what's interesting to me about this as an anthropologist, you know, for millions of years, we lived in these little hunting and gathering groups.

01:08:36.640 Women tended to have four or five children during the course of their lives and often, absolutely regularly, only one or two lived to adulthood.

01:08:46.120 And so it was just replacement level.

01:08:50.100 Then we began to settle down on the farm about 10,000 years ago.

01:08:54.220 And women's job was to have babies who could pick the vegetables, you know, et cetera, et cetera.

01:09:00.280 And so as we move farther and farther from our agrarian background, we're moving forward to the past, back to the kinds of relationships actually in which women are extremely powerful, double income family.

01:09:16.100 And the desire to have fewer children because people today believe that the child will live to adulthood.

01:09:25.420 The other thing is children are very expensive these days.

01:09:28.380 I mean, you know, I mean, just even buying bicycles and computers.

01:09:31.500 But one estimate was you spent over $250,000 on a child before it goes to, I don't know whether it was high school or college.

01:09:39.400 But anyway, it's very expensive.

01:09:42.580 I agree with that.

01:09:43.600 I will take a guess.

01:09:44.460 I'm going to hazard a guess that during the pandemic, all these people got puppies.

01:09:48.060 They got a COVID dog.

01:09:49.300 They realized how hard it is just to deal with that.

01:09:52.400 And they said, forget it.

01:09:53.940 And you can't return the child.

01:09:57.300 I think they'll have one or two, but they're not going to go back to the farming life.

01:10:00.920 You know, I mean, I mean, for millions of years, women commuted to work to gather their fruits and vegetables.

01:10:07.020 They came home with 60 to 80 percent of the evening meal.

01:10:09.900 The double income family was the rule.

01:10:12.360 And women were regarded as just as sexually, socially and economically powerful as men.

01:10:17.020 Then we settled down on the farm.

01:10:18.920 Men's jobs became much more important.

01:10:20.680 Moving the rocks, selling the trees, plowing the land, taking the local produce off to market and coming home with the equivalent of money.

01:10:28.780 And along with that, we see the rise of, with the farming tradition, the belief that a woman's place is in the home, virginity at marriage, man's the head of the household until death do us part.

01:10:40.520 You know, on the farm, what are you going to do?

01:10:41.760 You can't cut the cow in half to leave it, move it out of town.

01:10:44.780 You can't move half the wheat field out of town.

01:10:47.380 And so there was a tremendous need for lifelong care bonding.

01:10:52.560 And the farther we get away from that, the more women are moving into the job market.

01:10:57.480 As a matter of fact, of all of the current trends, that much more powerful than the trend of more technology is women piling into the job market in cultures around the world.

01:11:09.220 And that is changing love.

01:11:13.220 That's one of the main reasons we're marrying later, we're having fewer children, and we're going forward to the kinds of relationships that we had for millions of years.

01:11:22.080 Economically powerful women, double income family, fewer children, people leaving unhappy partnerships in order to make happy ones.

01:11:30.580 And so, and of course, women are more interesting than they've ever been.

01:11:34.420 I'm a real optimist about the future.

01:11:37.640 I love that.

01:11:38.320 I agree with that.

01:11:39.400 Women are more interesting than they've ever been.

01:11:41.420 They have so much opportunity available to them.

01:11:43.500 So many lanes in which they can participate in so many avenues of gaining new information.

01:11:47.220 And the more interested you are, the more interesting you become.

01:11:51.960 Up next, here's what I'm interested in.

01:11:54.620 Cheating, right?

01:11:55.760 Why do people do it?

01:11:56.540 And is there love after doing it?

01:11:59.900 And can you fall out of love?

01:12:02.280 You know, people who have unrequited love need to fall out of love.

01:12:05.840 How do you do that scientifically?

01:12:07.780 Dr. Helen Fisher with that right after this.

01:12:14.780 Is it possible to be deeply in love and have attachment to someone and then to have romantic love with somebody else?

01:12:26.540 Absolutely.

01:12:27.480 I mean, you know, these three basic brain systems can really work together.

01:12:30.840 Sex drive, romantic love, and feelings of deep attachment.

01:12:33.320 But not always.

01:12:34.800 You know, you can lie in bed at night and feel a deep sense of attachment to one person while you feel a sense of intense romantic love for somebody else, while you can have the sex drive for somebody who you barely know.

01:12:44.960 And that's a pickle.

01:13:14.940 I don't know why they're adults.

01:13:15.760 They'll say, well, I wanted to supplement my marriage.

01:13:18.940 I wanted to get caught and break up my marriage.

01:13:21.580 I wanted to get caught and rebuild my marriage.

01:13:24.180 I got bored when my partner was out of town.

01:13:26.740 I wanted revenge.

01:13:27.820 I wanted to solve a sex problem.

01:13:29.260 I want people to laugh at my jokes.

01:13:30.640 I feel entitled because I make much more money.

01:13:34.600 I feel entitled because I'm higher status.

01:13:37.020 I tend to work with people with my hands.

01:13:40.280 And so I get into these.

01:13:41.600 If you ask people, there's a million.

01:13:43.480 They'll all give you a different reason for why they are adulterous.

01:13:47.160 But what's interesting to me is how many people are.

01:13:50.080 Now, it's very difficult to know how many people are.

01:13:52.100 The data goes back to the 1920s when about a third of men and about a quarter of women reported that they were adulterous.

01:13:58.800 These days, it depends on how you phrase the question and who you ask.

01:14:03.100 So it's very difficult to know.

01:14:04.560 But what's remarkable is how many people end up being adulterous, even in places where you could get your head chopped off for it.

01:14:11.780 So in spite of all the psychological reasons for adultery, I began to think to myself, well, what would be the evolutionary?

01:14:18.620 Why is this adaptive?

01:14:19.920 I mean, you know, you fall in love.

01:14:21.740 You have a family.

01:14:22.920 You get a good job.

01:14:24.080 You get good neighbors.

01:14:25.580 You've got a stability.

01:14:27.000 Why would you jeopardize all that?

01:14:28.820 And so from a Darwinian perspective, now this isn't psychology, this is from a dark, what would be the payoffs that would have evolved so that the human brain is predisposed to cheat?

01:14:41.400 And here's some of the going theories.

01:14:43.460 Mine and others, I think, agree with me.

01:14:46.820 Let's go back a million years.

01:14:48.640 If a man has a wife, great, two children, wonderful, and he slips over the hill now and then and has sex with another woman and has two extra children with her,

01:14:57.720 he's doubled the amount of DNA he has sent into tomorrow.

01:15:01.760 So he is one.

01:15:03.240 And, of course, he's going to be passing along whatever it is in the brain, and we now know some of those things, that predisposes you to adultery.

01:15:11.780 But why would a woman be adulterous?

01:15:13.580 A lot of my colleagues say, well, you know, women aren't adulterous.

01:15:17.260 Well, guess what?

01:15:17.860 Who are all these men sleeping with?

01:15:18.980 I mean, that doesn't make any sense.

01:15:21.160 But the bottom line is then actually the data today shows that people under 40 women are just as adulterous as men.

01:15:26.780 And so why would a woman a million years ago be adulterous?

01:15:29.900 Can't have a new baby with every single one she has sex with.

01:15:33.800 But she could get extra support.

01:15:35.740 She could get insurance policy.

01:15:37.800 You know, her husband is eaten by a lion and she's got somebody to step in and help her with the children that she's got.

01:15:44.160 That's good.

01:15:45.360 Or she travels to other villages.

01:15:47.200 I mean, other hunting and gathering groups.

01:15:50.320 And somebody gives her meat or beads or what helps to support her, makes her more healthy, more able to raise the children that she has.

01:15:59.160 So for evolutionary reasons, over millions of years, there were payoffs by forming a partnership with one individual and being adulterous on the side.

01:16:11.380 And I think what we've evolved is what I call a dual human reproductive strategy, a tremendous drive to fall in love, form a partnership and raise our babies as a team.

01:16:21.820 And also a predisposition for the roving eye.

01:16:26.600 And, of course, then we all decide whether we're going to do something about this.

01:16:30.120 What's interesting to me is there was a study in the 1980s where it astonished me.

01:16:35.380 They asked the question of people who were adulterous.

01:16:38.560 Were you in a happy or very happy marriage?

01:16:41.480 And 56% of men said yes.

01:16:44.560 They were in a happy marriage when they were adulterous.

01:16:46.920 And 34% of women said yes.

01:16:49.340 So this points to the fact that for millions of years, no matter what your psychology is, for millions of years, there were some payoffs for adultery.

01:16:58.920 And, in fact, for men, it's probably more babies, and for women, it's more resources for the babies they've got, leaving us with this tremendous drive for autonomy and also a tremendous drive to commit.

01:17:13.840 And then each one of us faces this and makes decisions.

01:17:17.080 Right. So how do you, so going, you as a newlywed yourself and anybody out there thinking about getting married is hoping, I think, at least at the beginning, that they won't cheat, that their partner won't cheat.

01:17:30.200 How do you try to tamp down those biological instincts, needs, you know, histories?

01:17:37.580 Well, I think a lot of people have already, these days, because they're marrying so much later, they've already gone through all that.

01:17:42.700 That's another beauty of marrying so much later.

01:17:44.500 They've learned, you know, what they're really looking for, and they've found it.

01:17:51.000 In fact, adultery has decreased since their farming background, because in the past, you couldn't divorce.

01:17:59.140 And so men particularly would have a wife at home and then have another woman in the village, because they couldn't divorce.

01:18:06.880 These days, a woman won't put up with that.

01:18:09.220 And so, you know, they will divorce instead.

01:18:11.840 They've got, they have the resources to do that.

01:18:15.020 And we'll go on and find somebody that they can trust.

01:18:17.960 But what's interesting about adultery is there is some genetics to it.

01:18:21.320 Now, just because they're predisposed doesn't mean they're determined.

01:18:25.940 I mean, you can have some of the genetics for alcoholism and give up alcohol.

01:18:30.340 You're going to have some of the genetics for eating too much, and yet you control your weight.

01:18:35.520 So the bottom line is, even though-

01:18:37.560 Are you saying like genetics as in, oh, his dad cheated, so he's going to cheat?

01:18:41.840 The genetics, what they have found is a certain gene in the dopamine system, the DRD47 repeat allele for anybody who's listening on that level.

01:18:53.180 And those people tend to be more restless and have more sexual encounters with other people.

01:18:59.840 As a gene in the vasopressin system, they've not only studied it in 552 men, but also in other animals, other creatures, the prairie vole.

01:19:12.060 And as it turns out, if you've got none of, that gene, you can have no copies, one copy or two copies.

01:19:20.000 Those men who had no copies had the most stable partnerships.

01:19:23.600 Those who had one copy had less stable, and those who had two copies had the least stable.

01:19:29.540 Now, this doesn't mean that just because you inherited that, that you're necessarily going to cheat.

01:19:35.460 There's all kinds of cultural things.

01:19:37.120 I mean, an awful lot of people, they're marrying much later.

01:19:39.440 They've had a million experiences with adultery, and they're done.

01:19:44.320 You know, you can overlook your predispositions.

01:19:48.820 Okay, so let me ask a follow-up on that.

01:19:51.120 So a man who doesn't want children, right?

01:19:54.880 Like, let's say a man who doesn't want children, would he have the same instinct to cheat as any other man?

01:20:02.780 You know, if it's like, I need to spread my seed, you know, this biological thing.

01:20:06.100 He doesn't really want to do that, but like, because he's already an anomaly, right?

01:20:10.500 If he doesn't want children.

01:20:13.240 Well, I mean, I would guess an awful lot of people who go on adulterers definitely do not want to have children.

01:20:17.920 I mean, just because there's Darwinian underpinnings.

01:20:20.820 I don't think the vast majority of people who, you know, have sex with somebody after the Christmas party are intending to want to have children.

01:20:28.180 To the contrary.

01:20:29.640 They're on the psychological level of, oh, we've just had a wonderful conversation, and here I am, and oh, well, I'm not excusing them.

01:20:36.640 But the bottom line is just because we have some predispositions doesn't mean that we are thinking about those predispositions.

01:20:44.300 I mean, most people who are adulterers are thinking about the moment, you know, that I'm angry at my partner, I'm lonely when he's out of town or she's out of town, I want revenge, or very psychological reasons that people say that they're adulterers.

01:21:01.480 But what the issue is, so many people are adulterers in so many different cultures that it's got to have been for millions of years some Darwinian payoffs.

01:21:09.940 But I don't think that people are thinking of those Darwinian payoffs as they're, you know, hopping into the sack with somebody.

01:21:15.820 Yeah, well, you never know what's driving you, right?

01:21:17.600 You just never know.

01:21:18.440 We just interviewed a guy who was talking about how people don't want to express the contrary opinion in a group because they don't want to get culled from the herd.

01:21:24.840 And that's a biological thing that we've developed over years and years, because it used to be very dangerous to get culled from the herd.

01:21:31.100 So, you know, you may relate to that, not wanting to express your opinion, but you have no idea that biological evolution drove it, you know, that that's what's actually causing it.

01:21:41.020 Well, our craving for sugar.

01:21:43.220 I mean, we couldn't get a lot of sugar for millions and millions of some berries and some honey.

01:21:48.500 And that was about it.

01:21:49.300 And now we so we have this craving for sugar.

01:21:52.660 And of course, we now live in a society where it's very difficult to avoid sugar.

01:21:56.980 So the brain says, oh, this is great.

01:21:59.540 Taste buds are all there ready to jump in and enjoy it.

01:22:03.200 And and yet now it can kill you, whereas in the past, it probably could give you energy and keep you alive.

01:22:08.560 But I'm glad you brought up cravings and addiction, because I know you've written a lot about this, that love.

01:22:13.500 Love is biological and it's found, if you study the brain, as Helen has in the same part of the brain that that drives cravings, that thirst, hunger.

01:22:23.760 It's that basic a need and a drive.

01:22:26.660 It's not just emotional.

01:22:28.740 It really is physical.

01:22:32.500 Well said, kid.

01:22:33.520 I mean, really.

01:22:34.340 And and the bottom line is when I was first putting people into the brain scanner with my colleagues, Lucy Brown and others, I thought it was an emotion or a whole series of emotions, which it is.

01:22:45.880 But the bottom line is when we put those people in the scanner, people were madly in love, just in love, rejected in love and in love long term.

01:22:52.300 We really found activity in a tiny little factory near the base of the brain called the ventral tic metal area, a brain region that actually makes dopamine and sends dopamine to many brain regions.

01:23:03.680 But just like you said, that little factory that pumps out the dopamine that gives you that elation lies right next to a factory that orchestrates thirst and hunger.

01:23:13.420 Thirst and hunger keep you alive today.

01:23:14.880 Romantic love enables you to focus your mating energy on a particular individual and drive your DNA into tomorrow.

01:23:22.920 So it is a drive and it is an addiction.

01:23:25.980 And here's what I've not been able to convince any of my colleagues of it.

01:23:29.940 I think at some point it evolved as a positive addiction, giving us the ability to overlook just about everything, to fall in love with somebody and send our DNA onto tomorrow.

01:23:41.220 Now, it can also be a horribly negative addiction.

01:23:43.340 I mean, people pine for love, they live for love, they kill for love, and they die for love.

01:23:48.940 I mean, it can be a very powerful addiction.

01:23:51.000 But the bottom line is it comes out of brain circuits at the bottom of the brain, like with drive, with craving, with focus, with motivation, with drive.

01:24:01.160 So that leads me to how do you get out of it, right?

01:24:04.840 Like in the unrequited love situation, the husband leaves you, the wife takes off or, you know, the case of the guy who had the gal in the rickshaw.

01:24:13.160 It was just you just never can get her to feel it in the first place.

01:24:16.360 And you want to fall out of love.

01:24:19.060 You don't, you know, I remember watching that movie, what was it called, with Greg Kinnear and Ashley Judd.

01:24:27.420 And she wanted to fall out of love.

01:24:29.240 She went to a doctor to see if she could get her amygdala taken out so she didn't have to have smells that reminded her of him, right?

01:24:35.620 Someone like you, someone like you.

01:24:38.520 So what's, can you force yourself to fall out of love?

01:24:43.040 Well, first of all, it is an addiction.

01:24:45.840 And when we put the people in the machine, we found that in all cases, a particular brain region called the nucleus accumbens, the tiny little factor in the middle of the head, linked with all of the addictions become activated.

01:24:58.660 This particular brain region becomes activated with all the substances, everything from heroin to nicotine to alcohol.

01:25:05.620 And all of the behavioral addictions associated with, oh, gambling or sex addiction, et cetera.

01:25:11.940 That brain region becomes active.

01:25:13.800 So you really do have to treat it as an addiction.

01:25:18.360 You have to treat it as an addiction.

01:25:21.660 Throw out the cards and letters.

01:25:23.800 Don't write.

01:25:24.640 Don't call.

01:25:25.800 Don't show up.

01:25:27.380 Don't ask the person's friends about the person.

01:25:30.800 Go out and get some exercise.

01:25:32.540 That'll drive up dopamine.

01:25:33.480 Go get hugs from your friends.

01:25:36.520 That'll drive up the oxytocin.

01:25:38.900 Do new things.

01:25:41.680 Don't lie down.

01:25:43.740 I mean, there's somebody camping in your head.

01:25:45.340 You got to get them out.

01:25:46.960 And so you've got to distract yourself.

01:25:49.640 And one of the, I mean, in the beginning, it's important to understand what goes on.

01:25:53.120 I mean, you know, oh, by the way, you know, I mean, when you're, when you are addicted to this person, not only does this brain region also linked with craving, obsessive craving become active.

01:26:04.920 But that same brain region triggers what they call the ability to start processing your gains and your losses.

01:26:12.900 So when you've been downed, one of the first things you naturally do is trying to figure out, geez, what did I gain out of this?

01:26:18.260 What did I lose?

01:26:19.020 Did I lose the dog and the cat?

01:26:20.420 Did I lose children?

01:26:21.240 Did I lose money?

01:26:21.960 Did I lose neighbors?

01:26:22.800 What do I do at Thanksgiving, at the holidays?

01:26:26.780 You're trying to assess the situation.

01:26:29.080 But at some point, you've got to build a narrative, whether it's true or not, so that you've got your story and so that you can then throw it out.

01:26:38.060 So I would treat it as an addiction.

01:26:40.900 And I would build the story.

01:26:45.080 But at some point, you've got to give the story up.

01:26:48.820 You know, I know one time I got dumped and friends were very sweet.

01:26:51.920 They kept on asking, how are you feeling?

01:26:53.360 And after a while, I realized, you know, every time I talk about this again, I'm just raising the ghost.

01:26:59.960 So at some point, you have to move on.

01:27:01.640 And the bottom line is we have proven that time heals.

01:27:05.320 When we put people who are rejected in love into the brain scanner, those who have been rejected about 17 months ago, as opposed to six months ago, showed less and less activity in a brain region linked with attachment.

01:27:20.140 So time does heal.

01:27:22.340 But you have to help yourself out by treating it seriously as an addiction.

01:27:26.860 As I say, they actually may actually, now that I think of it, be from that very movie I just referenced, they say time heals all wounds and time wounds all heals.

01:27:38.220 We put the little brain scan actually up on the screen.

01:27:41.700 I just want to tell the audience who are going to watch this on YouTube what they're seeing.

01:27:44.940 So it shows like a flare up in the brain.

01:27:49.120 Both of these are of a brain that's in love, A and B.

01:27:53.360 And you can see sort of some firing up going on in both sides.

01:27:57.380 And let's see, the one on the left shows a ventral tegmental area on the left.

01:28:04.020 And the caudate nucleus on the right, heightened activity in the VTA in particular has been associated with all sorts of addictions, nicotine, alcohol, heroin, and so on.

01:28:14.040 Each dose causing a fresh spike of dopamine.

01:28:16.740 So that brings us to the chemical manipulation we already do of some of these things, whether it's drinking or cocaine or, I mean, the serious drugs, heroin, and so on.

01:28:31.160 And then separately, but maybe not unrelated, antidepressants and the self-medicating that people do.

01:28:37.580 So can you talk about how those affect the brain chemistry and may interfere with our ability indeed to love?

01:28:47.360 That's one of the most important questions that anybody ever asked me, and they rarely do.

01:28:52.920 You know, when you're madly in love, that little ventral tegmental area, the VTA is making dopamine and pumping it out and sending it to many brain regions,

01:29:01.820 giving you that elation, giddiness, euphoria, sleeplessness, intrusive thinking about the person, high motivation to win them, sexual craving, et cetera, et cetera.

01:29:13.340 And when you take an SSRI, serotonin, you know, like Lexapro or Paxil, some of the older ones, you're driving up the serotonin system.

01:29:24.220 And serotonin has a negative correlation with the dopamine system.

01:29:27.840 So the dopamine system is linked with romantic love, and as you're driving up the serotonin system, you are suppressing the dopamine system.

01:29:36.060 And so I think it becomes harder and harder to fall in love.

01:29:40.480 You know, I mean, there's some people who need those drugs to get out of bed.

01:29:43.900 I'm not suggesting that these are all bad.

01:29:46.720 But the bottom line is a lot of people take them to calm themselves under difficult circumstances, and then they don't get off them.

01:29:54.980 And what these drugs do is blunt the emotions for a good reason.

01:30:00.060 If you're really struggling, it's probably very useful to blunt the emotions so you don't kill yourself and you get on with living.

01:30:05.860 But the bottom line is an awful lot of people solve their problems, and they keep taking the drugs.

01:30:11.700 And I cannot tell you, I have letters from all over the world all the time, and the people will say, the last one was, I don't know, last week.

01:30:19.280 Like, all the time.

01:30:20.660 And a guy writes, and he says, you know, I have been married for 11 years.

01:30:24.360 We have two small boys, five and eight.

01:30:27.640 We were very happily married.

01:30:30.140 My wife went back to school.

01:30:31.780 She wasn't doing well.

01:30:32.780 They put her on one of these SSRIs.

01:30:35.120 And about two months later, she came back to me.

01:30:37.400 She said, I don't love you anymore.

01:30:39.700 I want a divorce.

01:30:40.500 And then they say to me, is it the drugs?

01:30:43.760 And it could well be the drugs.

01:30:47.120 Because when you suppress the emotions, you're suppressing the ability, I think, to fall in love and to form a deep attachment to somebody.

01:30:56.180 My gosh.

01:30:57.020 I mean, that's so consequential.

01:31:00.480 That needs to be disclosed before those drugs get offered.

01:31:03.820 Well, I think they should at least.

01:31:06.160 And by the way, it also, in 73% of pills, you know, kills a sex drive.

01:31:11.040 And that's a big number.

01:31:13.500 73%.

01:31:13.980 Yeah.

01:31:14.940 I wrote that academic article a few years ago.

01:31:18.240 It could have changed.

01:31:19.400 Now they are beginning to give SNRIs.

01:31:22.560 They're trying to drive up the serotonin, but also drive up norepinephrine, which will help you feel your emotions.

01:31:30.480 But the bottom line is, I cannot tell you how many letters I get from people.

01:31:36.800 And they don't understand it.

01:31:38.200 I mean, six weeks ago, this person was madly in love with them.

01:31:40.720 And now they are dulled.

01:31:43.760 And that's what they do.

01:31:44.700 How long does it take?

01:31:45.020 Do you know, like, if you decide to go on one of those drugs, how long does it take for it to sort of kill that center, a love center?

01:31:54.300 You know, nobody knows.

01:31:56.280 I'm the first person to say that.

01:31:57.640 And I would really like people to pick up on this.

01:32:01.900 It could be very easy to measure.

01:32:04.480 All kinds of people go into a therapist or a psychologist in terrible trouble.

01:32:09.940 You know, you could see what the brain is like before the drugs and then after the drugs.

01:32:14.580 And then after you solve the problem, you know, and you could also give them all kinds of questionnaires.

01:32:19.720 It really wouldn't be hard to really study this.

01:32:23.640 I, alas, have gone on to doing other things.

01:32:26.520 But I do write about it.

01:32:29.020 And as you know, in one of my TED Talks, I do talk about it.

01:32:32.180 And I just have so many experiences with it.

01:32:35.140 I mean, I'll think of another one.

01:32:37.520 You know, it's a young guy.

01:32:38.720 He was madly in love with a woman.

01:32:40.120 And he was doing poorly in school.

01:32:42.380 So he got on one of these drugs, went back to her after a year and a half, said, I don't love to anymore.

01:32:47.160 I don't feel anything.

01:32:48.560 Left.

01:32:49.320 After about eight months, he got off the drugs.

01:32:51.540 He suddenly realized it was the drugs.

01:32:53.860 He bought all the roses he could carry in his arms.

01:32:57.920 Walked over to his house.

01:32:59.320 Her house knocked and she opened the door and he said, you know, will you take me back?

01:33:03.200 I think it was the drugs.

01:33:05.260 And in that case, she did.

01:33:07.860 But I mean, it's not that people shouldn't use these drugs, but they should understand, okay, am I willing to jeopardize my sex drive?

01:33:16.300 Am I willing to jeopardize feelings of romantic love and attachment?

01:33:20.060 I made a major speech to the American Psychiatric Association years ago.

01:33:24.520 And afterwards, somebody, a guy, an MD in the New York Times wrote and he said, you know, I heard Fisher's lecture.

01:33:30.240 He said, I am susceptible to depression.

01:33:33.580 The last time that I took one of these drugs, I realized that I no longer love my wife or my children.

01:33:39.140 I realized that it was the drugs after hearing Ellen talk.

01:33:42.340 I got off the drugs.

01:33:43.980 And then I'll never forget this line.

01:33:45.540 He said, my wife and my children is more important.

01:33:49.240 Next time, I'm just going to try to go through the depression without.

01:33:52.680 Wow.

01:33:53.520 Or find a different kind of drugs.

01:33:55.080 There's others that can be abused.

01:33:56.740 I'm not a psychiatrist, but I do study the brain.

01:34:00.240 And, you know, it's so interesting, Megan.

01:34:02.220 People have not really respected romantic love as a brain system.

01:34:06.120 When I first wrote my first academic article on it, one of the four reviewers wrote back and said, you can't study this.

01:34:13.340 It's part of the supernatural.

01:34:15.140 And I thought, hang on here.

01:34:17.040 We don't think fear is part of the supernatural.

01:34:19.220 We don't think anger is part of the supernatural.

01:34:21.220 People kill for love.

01:34:22.640 It's not part of the supernatural.

01:34:23.960 And I do think that a lot of people in the medical community are only just beginning to realize that when you give drugs, it's not going to only tamper with pain or anxiety, but also with these powerful brain systems for happiness.

01:34:39.400 I mean, it's ironic, of course, because you're taking them to try to amp up your happiness.

01:34:45.160 But if they suppress your ability to love, your ability, your desire for sex, which, as you point out earlier, it does all sorts of good things for you.

01:34:52.880 By the way, Helen, like Dr. Laura also says, have sex even if you're not feeling like having sex because it's great for your body and it's great for your relationship.

01:34:59.720 Then query whether it's doing more harm than good.

01:35:03.420 I have a weird last question, or at least one of the last.

01:35:07.700 This love dynamic, this, you know, the firing of the brain, the good feelings, all of that.

01:35:12.340 Can it be triggered with non-romantic love, like love for one's children?

01:35:17.260 You know, there's a very specific, wonderful question.

01:35:19.880 There's very specific traits linked with romantic love.

01:35:23.040 And, yes, you can certainly see a new mother being focused on that child, intense elation, the ability to overlook what they don't like or they're worried about, obsessive thinking, craving to be with the child, highly motivated to, you know, to be with the child, et cetera.

01:35:43.300 So they had a lot of the traits of intense romantic love.

01:35:47.120 The child also takes on special meaning.

01:35:49.380 They're different from any other child.

01:35:50.740 They're focused on it, high energy.

01:35:53.040 Emotional dependence on the child.

01:35:55.540 A lot of the basic traits of romantic love you can see under other circumstances.

01:36:00.540 But there is one trait of romantic love that's not involved, and that is sexual craving.

01:36:06.220 Yeah, the lust part, obviously.

01:36:07.680 You're two months old.

01:36:09.880 Oh, boy.

01:36:10.500 The bottom line is the full constellation of these traits is not there.

01:36:15.100 But, you know, you can sort of be madly in love with a girlfriend and be a total heterosexual.

01:36:20.400 But you don't want to have sex with her.

01:36:23.140 But I think what this is leading me to conclude, love is great.

01:36:28.740 Love is awesome.

01:36:29.860 All sorts of different love are important and wonderful to have in your life.

01:36:33.260 But there's only one sort of romantic love.

01:36:36.360 That's a special lane with the sex drive and the romantic love and the attachment.

01:36:40.760 And, you know, if done right and well and nurtured with good decisions, there's nothing else like it.

01:36:48.040 And by the way, you just said something, another thing that was very important.

01:36:53.140 I love poetry because I think it's a great artifact of the human brain.

01:36:57.460 It really expresses the emotions.

01:36:59.280 And there was an Indian poet from India named Kabir in the 1500s, I think.

01:37:03.940 And he once said, and here's the quote, the lane of love is narrow.

01:37:09.940 There's room for only one.

01:37:12.240 Now, you can feel attached to a lot of people.

01:37:14.580 You can have sex with a lot of people.

01:37:16.120 But romantic love is focused on just one.

01:37:19.080 So great, great.

01:37:21.580 So fun to think about and just interesting to think about how to nurture it in our own lives, right?

01:37:26.980 Everybody's got it at some point or had it at some point or hopes to have it at another point,

01:37:31.040 whether it's on, you know, one of these websites or someplace else.

01:37:35.060 So I think you've given us a lot to think about.

01:37:36.860 What a pleasure.

01:37:37.480 Thank you for being so open, Helen.

01:37:38.980 It's been a delight getting to know you.

01:37:40.400 Oh, you're a sweetheart.

01:37:41.660 I'll just say one thing about it.

01:37:43.180 You know, romantic love is primordial.

01:37:45.820 It's adaptable and it's eternal.

01:37:48.380 It's going to be with us a lot longer than Valentine's Day.

01:37:52.460 Amen to that.

01:37:53.540 All the best.

01:37:58.880 We didn't feel like we could end the show without bringing on my colleague, Danny Roth,

01:38:04.000 who is the one whose love journey we discussed.

01:38:07.460 So, Danny, you were actually talking to Helen before the show and then you heard her advice

01:38:11.340 during the show for being on Hinge.

01:38:13.740 Again, Hinge.

01:38:14.400 She's the one who educated me on this.

01:38:16.060 Danny is Hinge and Bumble and Tinder.

01:38:17.800 So did you learn anything helpful?

01:38:19.840 Yeah, some things.

01:38:21.140 I will say she talks about activity a lot.

01:38:23.880 And if I see one more man post a photo of him on a boat with a fish, it's not going to

01:38:29.800 do well.

01:38:31.040 It's not going to work.

01:38:32.100 What do you want to see?

01:38:33.240 You know, I just want to see honesty.

01:38:34.920 I want to see personality.

01:38:36.400 I don't really care about seeing you with your car or fish.

01:38:40.180 I want to see, you know, you with your friends.

01:38:43.020 I want to see you at a concert.

01:38:45.040 I want to see you doing something that you actually enjoy and are passionate about.

01:38:48.720 All right.

01:38:48.860 Now, let's let's do some data on you.

01:38:50.600 How old are you?

01:38:51.980 I'm 24.

01:38:53.260 OK.

01:38:53.560 And are you in the market for, you know, a relationship or just, you know, casual good

01:38:58.700 times?

01:38:59.760 I'm in the market for anything.

01:39:02.360 If it's fun and it leads to something.

01:39:04.340 OK.

01:39:05.240 OK.

01:39:05.580 If it doesn't.

01:39:06.260 OK.

01:39:06.780 Do you have a certain age range you want?

01:39:09.080 I'm probably older.

01:39:10.800 I try to stay like 25 to 32.

01:39:15.180 Older.

01:39:16.920 Older than you.

01:39:17.700 OK, I got it.

01:39:18.940 That's good.

01:39:19.660 OK.

01:39:19.960 And do you care like if he's never been married, if he's married, has a kid, you know, I mean,

01:39:25.300 not married now, but, you know, was.

01:39:27.760 No, I don't care.

01:39:29.100 OK, so you're.

01:39:29.860 And so would you describe yourself as like one of those active gals or are you more like

01:39:33.720 stay at home, watch a movie?

01:39:35.740 You know, how do you describe yourself on your profiles?

01:39:38.680 Yeah, I'm active.

01:39:39.680 It really sucks, which I don't even know if you know this, Megan, but about four months

01:39:42.880 ago, I broke my ankle.

01:39:45.060 So things have slowed down a bit for me.

01:39:49.740 So I haven't been really dating lately, but now I'm in Hoboken, just moved here.

01:39:55.020 So anything's open, anything's available.

01:39:58.260 I'm excited.

01:39:59.100 How how has your job affected your dating prospects?

01:40:01.460 When you say that you work for me, has that been a plus or a minus in your world?

01:40:05.920 Well, it's so funny because my rule is don't talk politics, religion or really family during

01:40:13.660 the first date.

01:40:14.540 But the minute I bring up Megyn Kelly, everything goes out the window because obviously politics

01:40:19.120 gets involved.

01:40:20.160 Yeah.

01:40:20.340 And obviously you dump anybody who has a negative reaction.

01:40:24.000 Obviously.

01:40:24.780 OK, good.

01:40:25.160 Just making sure.

01:40:26.180 And and the next one who does that before you dump him, ask him if he wants to come on

01:40:30.160 the show.

01:40:31.460 Deal.

01:40:32.220 Deal.

01:40:33.000 I think I could do some good in reversing his his feelings, his backward feelings.

01:40:37.260 Put him in the hot seat.

01:40:38.600 Yeah.

01:40:38.900 Right.

01:40:39.160 Why not?

01:40:39.540 All right.

01:40:39.680 Now, wait, let me ask you, though.

01:40:40.780 So hinge, is that is that the site of choice now, would you say, for people your age, like

01:40:44.840 respectable young women who aren't just looking for one night?

01:40:48.480 Yeah.

01:40:49.400 Yeah.

01:40:49.800 You can post six pictures and then which Helen said, six photos and you can choose three

01:40:56.760 prompts of your choice.

01:40:57.880 And they have like seventy five prompts you can choose from.

01:41:00.900 Do you feel pressure to put up a bikini photo?

01:41:03.180 You know, like it's all about showing his skin today.

01:41:05.920 Yeah, I try and do crop tops.

01:41:08.820 I try not to do a full bikini, but I appreciate that as an employer.

01:41:13.600 I think I mean, you can do what you want, but I would just say save some for, you know,

01:41:20.720 the big reveal.

01:41:21.720 It's better to let him wonder a little.

01:41:23.160 I just know I'm 24 and I only can have this body for so long.

01:41:27.080 Oh, sister, you don't know how true that is.

01:41:29.760 Single tear.

01:41:32.520 Well, listen, I love you.

01:41:33.740 You're an incredibly hard worker.

01:41:34.860 You're great at what you do.

01:41:35.820 And one of the beauties of getting asked to come on the Megyn Kelly show is you get to

01:41:39.300 go through Danny Roth and it is a pleasant experience start to finish.

01:41:43.000 Thank you, lady.

01:41:43.860 And thank you for revealing so much about your own life.

01:41:47.060 Love you, MK.

01:41:48.120 I love you, too, babe.

01:41:49.600 Leave me a comment in the Apple comments section.

01:41:51.960 I will read them all.

01:41:53.260 I read one today that was so amazing.

01:41:55.200 It had a reference to my favorite movie, Willy Wonka, and suggested a new tagline, which

01:41:59.040 I am kicking around.

01:42:00.960 So I do love to hear from you and check out YouTube dot com slash Megyn Kelly and subscribe

01:42:05.100 there, too, which helps us out and helps me get the product to everyone who enjoys the

01:42:09.780 show.

01:42:10.220 Thank you for listening and have a great weekend.

01:42:13.000 Thanks for listening to the Megyn Kelly show.

01:42:18.060 No BS, no agenda and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - February 18, 2022

The Science of Love, Cheating, and Long-Lasting Relationships, with Dr. Helen Fisher ｜ Ep. 265

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