The Megyn Kelly Show - The Trans Athletes Debate, From All Angles： High School Girls Suing, Medical Experts, and More ｜ Ep. 101

00:00:00.000 When I found out my friend got a great deal

00:00:02.160 on a wool coat from Winners,

00:00:03.780 I started wondering,

00:00:05.440 is every fabulous item I see from Winners?

00:00:08.560 Like that woman over there with the designer jeans. 1.00

00:00:11.260 Are those from Winners?

00:00:12.780 Ooh, or those beautiful gold earrings?

00:00:14.880 Did she pay full price?

00:00:16.620 Or that leather tote?

00:00:17.620 Or that cashmere sweater?

00:00:18.840 Or those knee-high boots?

00:00:20.280 That dress?

00:00:21.060 That jacket?

00:00:21.740 Those shoes?

00:00:22.780 Is anyone paying full price for anything?

00:00:25.780 Stop wondering.

00:00:26.980 Start winning.

00:00:27.920 Winners.

00:00:28.500 Find fabulous for less.

00:00:30.560 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show,

00:00:32.540 your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:37.100 Today, the trans athlete story.

00:00:39.780 From all angles,

00:00:41.080 girls who filed a recent lawsuit

00:00:42.740 to stop the trans girls from running in sports, 1.00

00:00:45.720 scientific experts on both sides of the debate,

00:00:48.100 they're amazing, and more.

00:00:49.680 Next.

00:00:56.240 Hey everyone, it's Megyn Kelly.

00:00:58.060 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:59.320 Today on the program,

00:01:01.140 The Trans Debate.

00:01:02.520 As I mentioned a second ago,

00:01:04.200 here's what we're going to be talking about.

00:01:06.000 In the state of Connecticut,

00:01:07.560 three young athletes,

00:01:09.560 teenage high school athletes,

00:01:11.180 filed a lawsuit

00:01:12.160 trying to object

00:01:14.640 to the fact that

00:01:15.560 trans girls

00:01:16.800 had been allowed to compete

00:01:18.520 against these three girls 0.97

00:01:20.300 in female athletics.

00:01:22.100 and the trans girls 0.99

00:01:23.800 and the trans girls 0.99

00:01:23.820 were winning

00:01:24.280 a lot

00:01:25.440 and taking titles

00:01:26.920 that these girls felt

00:01:28.380 were rightly theirs.

00:01:29.940 They feel that

00:01:30.940 the feminist community,

00:01:32.260 at least parts of it,

00:01:33.080 have not been standing up for them

00:01:34.260 and that these girls 0.97

00:01:35.720 and their families

00:01:36.440 have been

00:01:37.040 left

00:01:37.640 to their own devices

00:01:38.900 to try to stand up

00:01:39.820 for their places

00:01:40.420 on these track teams

00:01:41.420 and in other sports.

00:01:42.880 This is an issue

00:01:43.540 that's covering

00:01:44.100 college athletics

00:01:44.960 at the International Olympic level

00:01:47.080 and, of course,

00:01:48.740 now in the high school level as well.

00:01:50.820 And people don't know

00:01:51.860 what they're doing.

00:01:52.840 I mean,

00:01:53.120 if you look at the case law

00:01:54.380 all over the states,

00:01:55.320 it's all over the place.

00:01:56.640 Even the actual laws

00:01:58.600 passed in various states.

00:01:59.940 Just pulling up my notes here.

00:02:01.900 Okay, there are bills

00:02:03.080 aimed at limiting

00:02:03.860 or prohibiting

00:02:04.520 trans women in sports

00:02:05.620 in 20 states.

00:02:07.320 Bills have been passed

00:02:07.960 in places like Florida

00:02:08.820 and West Virginia.

00:02:10.020 We've got an executive order

00:02:11.020 out of the South Dakota governor.

00:02:13.040 Meanwhile,

00:02:13.320 the NCAA is refusing

00:02:14.440 to hold championships

00:02:15.320 where these restrictions are.

00:02:17.420 But then there's 16 states

00:02:18.940 like Connecticut

00:02:19.480 that allow transgender

00:02:20.440 high school athletes

00:02:21.180 to compete

00:02:21.640 without any restrictions.

00:02:23.160 No hormone therapy required.

00:02:25.060 Nothing.

00:02:25.900 You can transition

00:02:26.980 in a week

00:02:28.220 or a month's time

00:02:29.200 and race

00:02:30.360 in the other league,

00:02:32.000 right,

00:02:32.240 from the boys' league

00:02:32.940 to the girls' league.

00:02:33.760 And that's actually

00:02:34.340 what happened in Connecticut

00:02:36.140 leading to this lawsuit.

00:02:38.240 Now,

00:02:38.580 our plaintiffs today,

00:02:39.720 we've got two

00:02:40.160 of the three girls with us,

00:02:41.700 have just suffered a defeat.

00:02:43.780 This federal district court

00:02:44.900 threw out their lawsuit

00:02:45.840 saying,

00:02:46.440 eh,

00:02:47.080 everyone has since

00:02:48.140 graduated from high school,

00:02:49.220 so we're not going

00:02:49.580 to deal with this,

00:02:50.440 which is really

00:02:52.240 punting the ball

00:02:52.900 down the road

00:02:53.440 because this is going

00:02:54.540 to keep coming up

00:02:55.220 over and over.

00:02:55.800 So I think this court

00:02:56.480 just didn't have guts

00:02:57.520 and it's on appeal.

00:02:59.500 And we will see

00:03:00.440 once we get a ruling

00:03:01.480 on the merits,

00:03:02.920 ideally,

00:03:03.920 how the courts

00:03:04.560 are going to come down

00:03:05.200 on this issue.

00:03:05.760 Should it be allowed?

00:03:06.900 Are there really

00:03:07.680 meaningful biological

00:03:09.140 differences

00:03:09.680 between cis girls?

00:03:12.020 That refers to

00:03:13.000 girls who are born

00:03:13.920 girls and identify

00:03:15.400 as girls

00:03:15.840 the rest of their lives

00:03:16.760 and trans girls.

00:03:18.380 That means children

00:03:19.700 who are identified

00:03:21.060 as male

00:03:22.380 when they're born,

00:03:23.800 but later come

00:03:24.660 to believe

00:03:25.160 that they've been

00:03:26.340 misidentified

00:03:27.420 and that,

00:03:28.060 in fact,

00:03:28.480 they are girls

00:03:29.480 and they want to

00:03:29.960 live their lives

00:03:30.700 as girls.

00:03:31.620 So it's a sticky issue

00:03:33.760 and nobody has

00:03:34.900 all the answers,

00:03:35.860 but we're going

00:03:36.820 to have a great debate.

00:03:37.600 We're going to have

00:03:37.920 these girls on 1.00

00:03:38.640 with their lawyer

00:03:39.280 and then we're going

00:03:39.940 to have two experts

00:03:40.940 on this issue

00:03:41.960 come on and man,

00:03:43.100 it's a great debate.

00:03:44.040 They're so respectful.

00:03:45.920 One of our panelists

00:03:47.120 is herself trans

00:03:48.580 and a runner

00:03:49.800 and has been studying

00:03:51.320 this issue

00:03:51.720 for a long,

00:03:52.260 long time

00:03:52.700 and she'll have

00:03:53.660 somebody on the other

00:03:54.300 side who believes

00:03:55.240 you can't erase

00:03:56.440 biological differences

00:03:57.380 no matter what you do,

00:03:59.620 the hormones,

00:04:00.360 all of it,

00:04:01.280 and that these two

00:04:02.780 sort of groups

00:04:03.600 of athletes

00:04:04.140 need to remain separate.

00:04:05.580 Otherwise,

00:04:06.000 it's just unfair.

00:04:07.180 I loved this show.

00:04:08.680 So anyway,

00:04:09.040 we're going to get into it

00:04:09.940 We're going to mess up

00:04:11.440 the terms.

00:04:12.360 You're going to follow

00:04:13.060 along with us.

00:04:13.760 I did my best

00:04:14.360 to be respectful

00:04:15.000 but clear.

00:04:16.700 Mediocre success probably

00:04:18.080 but I leave it to you

00:04:19.280 to you to decide.

00:04:20.880 But we're going to start now

00:04:22.820 with the young women

00:04:24.820 who filed a lawsuit.

00:04:26.340 Chelsea Mitchell,

00:04:27.720 Alana Smith,

00:04:29.060 and the woman 0.95

00:04:29.840 representing them,

00:04:31.360 Kristen Wagner

00:04:32.400 from Alliance Defending Freedom.

00:04:35.960 But first this.

00:04:39.940 All right,

00:04:42.740 so Chelsea, 1.00

00:04:43.440 Alana,

00:04:43.940 and Kristen,

00:04:44.660 thank you so much

00:04:45.160 for being here.

00:04:46.120 Thank you.

00:04:46.920 Thank you.

00:04:47.720 Let's just start

00:04:48.700 with a personal story.

00:04:50.120 Okay,

00:04:50.280 I'm going to start

00:04:50.620 with you, Chelsea.

00:04:51.600 You are how old now?

00:04:53.360 I'm 18 years old.

00:04:54.820 Okay,

00:04:55.220 and you are in college.

00:04:56.860 You're a freshman

00:04:57.320 at William & Mary?

00:04:59.640 Yes,

00:04:59.980 that's correct.

00:05:00.780 All right,

00:05:01.080 so first of all,

00:05:02.120 how'd you become

00:05:02.760 such a track star?

00:05:03.700 Like what happened?

00:05:04.560 What drove you

00:05:05.600 to get into track?

00:05:07.140 Well,

00:05:07.540 I've been an athlete

00:05:08.320 all my life.

00:05:09.660 When I was little,

00:05:10.480 I played soccer

00:05:11.320 and basketball

00:05:12.640 and softball.

00:05:14.500 But when I got

00:05:15.400 to middle school,

00:05:16.840 I did track,

00:05:17.920 middle school track

00:05:18.760 kind of just

00:05:19.340 as a social event.

00:05:21.320 You know,

00:05:21.540 I always thought

00:05:22.080 I was kind of fast,

00:05:23.800 but it didn't really

00:05:24.640 become serious

00:05:25.420 until high school.

00:05:26.880 My older sister

00:05:27.740 was captain

00:05:28.900 of the track team,

00:05:30.060 so I decided

00:05:31.160 to kind of

00:05:31.760 give it a shot.

00:05:32.780 And yeah,

00:05:33.120 I kind of quickly

00:05:34.060 realized that,

00:05:35.020 you know,

00:05:35.260 I was kind of good

00:05:35.920 at running.

00:05:37.020 So this is a dumb

00:05:37.980 question, Chelsea, 1.00

00:05:38.640 forgive me,

00:05:39.020 but just because

00:05:39.780 you're a good runner,

00:05:40.540 you're a fast runner,

00:05:41.600 I guess wouldn't make

00:05:42.620 you necessarily

00:05:43.140 a good long jumper,

00:05:44.540 right?

00:05:44.720 So like how does,

00:05:45.720 if you run track,

00:05:46.760 do you necessarily

00:05:47.500 develop all of those skills,

00:05:49.540 like the whole track

00:05:50.600 and field ability?

00:05:51.860 No,

00:05:52.220 not necessarily.

00:05:53.100 I mean,

00:05:53.320 I think for long jump,

00:05:55.020 I'm also a long jumper.

00:05:56.960 Speed definitely does

00:05:58.160 help you a lot

00:05:59.380 because,

00:06:00.460 you know,

00:06:00.700 you're going out.

00:06:01.580 But for a lot

00:06:03.940 of other events,

00:06:04.880 you know,

00:06:06.160 whether you're fast

00:06:07.340 or you can jump high,

00:06:09.020 you know,

00:06:09.220 it's definitely not,

00:06:10.360 it's not as easy

00:06:11.500 to just kind of like

00:06:12.420 rearrange your events.

00:06:14.140 I mean,

00:06:14.760 definitely athleticism helps,

00:06:16.520 but yeah.

00:06:18.180 Okay.

00:06:18.800 So you,

00:06:20.260 you go into high school,

00:06:21.900 you are at Canton High School

00:06:24.160 in Connecticut

00:06:24.700 and right from the get-go,

00:06:26.960 were you on fire?

00:06:28.020 Like,

00:06:28.200 were you winning?

00:06:28.780 Were you,

00:06:29.100 was it clear you were

00:06:29.840 head and shoulders

00:06:30.740 above most of your competitors?

00:06:33.400 I don't think it was like fire,

00:06:35.580 but I definitely,

00:06:36.920 you know,

00:06:38.020 started out,

00:06:38.980 I broke my school record

00:06:41.260 in the 55 meter dash

00:06:42.740 and 300 meter dash

00:06:43.700 the first meet that I went to.

00:06:45.880 I broke the school record.

00:06:47.340 So it was definitely

00:06:48.060 kind of right off the bat.

00:06:50.320 We were like,

00:06:50.960 oh,

00:06:51.160 there's something special there

00:06:52.500 and she'll definitely,

00:06:53.820 we'll go far with those times.

00:06:56.160 And now,

00:06:56.560 if you are anything

00:06:57.540 like most families,

00:06:58.980 at some point,

00:06:59.760 your parents are like,

00:07:01.240 hmm,

00:07:01.600 you might be able

00:07:02.180 to do this in college.

00:07:03.420 Like,

00:07:03.640 this could work out pretty well.

00:07:05.380 Every parent is like,

00:07:06.440 could she play in college?

00:07:07.580 Could he play in college?

00:07:08.480 You know,

00:07:08.640 which is fun

00:07:09.840 and helps admissions

00:07:11.420 and potentially scholarships

00:07:13.040 and all that.

00:07:13.660 So how soon

00:07:14.740 in your high school career

00:07:15.680 did that possibility

00:07:16.840 occur to you guys?

00:07:18.240 I mean,

00:07:18.540 my freshman year

00:07:19.500 was kind of just,

00:07:20.460 you know,

00:07:20.680 for fun.

00:07:21.120 I was still kind of

00:07:21.800 figuring out the sport.

00:07:22.880 Definitely my sophomore year

00:07:25.520 was kind of when

00:07:26.360 I started realizing

00:07:27.640 that I might be good enough

00:07:29.220 to be able to run

00:07:30.860 Division I track.

00:07:33.000 Okay.

00:07:33.160 And I'm going to bring in

00:07:33.800 Kristen now,

00:07:34.360 who's your lawyer.

00:07:35.640 Because when I look

00:07:37.020 at the stats alleged

00:07:38.180 about Chelsea

00:07:38.860 in your lawsuit,

00:07:40.020 in their complaint,

00:07:40.840 I'm like,

00:07:41.640 oh my God.

00:07:42.480 Like the one that

00:07:43.160 jumped out at me

00:07:43.780 was she won

00:07:45.100 the MVP award

00:07:46.000 for track

00:07:46.520 every single season

00:07:47.940 of her high school career.

00:07:49.160 I mean,

00:07:49.660 but that's the least of it.

00:07:51.960 She did.

00:07:52.920 She won three

00:07:54.320 state open championships

00:07:55.920 in the 55 meter

00:07:57.220 and the 100 meter

00:07:58.000 and the long jump.

00:07:59.640 And she won

00:08:00.920 eight total

00:08:01.760 state championships

00:08:02.760 in a number of events.

00:08:04.200 She has 20

00:08:05.600 conference championships,

00:08:07.300 holds a number

00:08:08.000 of meet records.

00:08:09.120 And as you said,

00:08:10.300 MVP.

00:08:11.120 And she's the only

00:08:12.100 female athlete 0.99

00:08:13.080 in her school history

00:08:14.220 to win a state

00:08:15.180 or a New England championship.

00:08:16.640 So if you think about it,

00:08:17.460 there's the state

00:08:18.080 of Connecticut

00:08:18.640 and then there's

00:08:19.240 the whole New England

00:08:20.160 regional championship

00:08:21.400 that's even broader

00:08:22.700 and she won that as well.

00:08:25.760 All right.

00:08:25.900 So maybe I'm feeling

00:08:27.440 hormonal today

00:08:28.200 or something,

00:08:28.740 but that just gave me

00:08:29.340 the chills.

00:08:30.100 I just got the chills.

00:08:31.820 It's just so cool.

00:08:32.920 I love,

00:08:33.460 I love hearing

00:08:34.140 about young women's success

00:08:35.120 and it's just super fun

00:08:36.280 to think about you

00:08:37.020 coming into your own

00:08:38.160 and what that must have

00:08:39.260 felt like.

00:08:40.040 And I don't know.

00:08:41.460 I mean,

00:08:41.680 I guess I should ask you,

00:08:42.720 Chelsea,

00:08:42.880 what did that feel like

00:08:43.880 to just be winning

00:08:44.820 and dominating

00:08:45.740 and,

00:08:46.300 you know,

00:08:46.840 putting in the work

00:08:47.540 and seeing the results

00:08:48.300 come in?

00:08:49.400 It was crazy,

00:08:50.700 to be honest,

00:08:51.800 you know,

00:08:52.320 kind of like

00:08:53.300 as the years went on

00:08:54.320 in high school,

00:08:54.980 I kept getting

00:08:56.060 better and better

00:08:57.140 and I kept achieving

00:08:58.240 like really high marks

00:08:59.560 and to kind of see that

00:09:01.260 come full circle

00:09:02.440 was really cool.

00:09:03.340 I remember

00:09:03.680 my freshman year,

00:09:05.560 like seeing the females 0.98

00:09:07.860 win the 100 meters

00:09:09.180 at states

00:09:10.160 and just like

00:09:10.960 thinking that was so cool

00:09:12.540 and they were so fast

00:09:13.640 and I was like,

00:09:14.460 oh,

00:09:14.960 like I just want that

00:09:15.800 to be me.

00:09:16.960 Like,

00:09:17.320 I hope I can do

00:09:18.100 that one day

00:09:18.800 and like,

00:09:20.040 so to be able

00:09:21.040 to do that

00:09:21.580 and to reach those marks

00:09:22.700 was definitely

00:09:24.160 just like

00:09:24.920 kind of mind-blowing

00:09:26.260 to myself

00:09:26.940 and definitely

00:09:28.860 was like

00:09:30.300 my biggest accomplishment

00:09:31.440 in high school.

00:09:33.080 And it's really,

00:09:33.940 it's a lesson.

00:09:34.600 Hard work can get you

00:09:35.520 where you want to go.

00:09:36.200 I mean,

00:09:36.540 it really,

00:09:37.180 it can.

00:09:38.420 Hard work can get you

00:09:39.860 where you want to go.

00:09:42.380 All right.

00:09:42.680 So what was

00:09:43.720 the first year

00:09:44.800 that the trans girl

00:09:46.540 athletes

00:09:47.240 started competing

00:09:49.220 and was it

00:09:50.000 in your school

00:09:50.700 or the two?

00:09:51.280 Because I know

00:09:51.560 the complaint

00:09:52.260 speaks of two trans girls

00:09:53.820 in particular.

00:09:54.440 Were they in your school?

00:09:56.440 No,

00:09:56.860 the two transgender girls

00:09:59.040 were not from my school.

00:10:00.780 They did start,

00:10:01.920 one of them

00:10:02.440 started competing

00:10:03.040 against me

00:10:03.780 my freshman year

00:10:04.820 of high school

00:10:05.500 and the other

00:10:06.860 started running

00:10:08.420 against me

00:10:08.820 my sophomore year.

00:10:09.680 Okay.

00:10:10.320 Their names are

00:10:10.980 Andrea Yearwood

00:10:12.140 and Terry Miller?

00:10:13.400 Yes.

00:10:14.240 Terry came in later.

00:10:15.360 Yes,

00:10:15.600 Terry,

00:10:16.060 as I understand,

00:10:16.940 started running

00:10:18.000 as in the girls leagues

00:10:19.740 as of the 10th grade.

00:10:21.900 Yeah,

00:10:22.220 Terry actually competed

00:10:24.200 on the boys team

00:10:26.340 the first

00:10:27.300 three seasons

00:10:28.520 of high school

00:10:29.140 and then

00:10:29.660 her sophomore year

00:10:31.920 of high school

00:10:32.900 she decided

00:10:34.100 to join

00:10:34.860 the girls team.

00:10:37.040 So this is where

00:10:38.220 it starts to get

00:10:39.260 very dicey

00:10:40.700 because

00:10:41.180 according to your complaint

00:10:43.000 I'm reading here

00:10:45.440 in the winter of 2017

00:10:47.020 spring of 2017

00:10:48.480 and winter of 2018

00:10:50.700 seasons

00:10:51.520 then male athlete

00:10:53.320 Terry Miller

00:10:54.100 competed in boys

00:10:55.700 indoor or outdoor

00:10:56.700 track events

00:10:57.340 and did not advance

00:10:58.600 to any state class

00:11:00.740 or open championships

00:11:01.780 in individual events.

00:11:03.660 So Terry was not

00:11:04.300 doing so well

00:11:05.100 when running

00:11:05.720 in the boys league

00:11:06.920 is that fair to say?

00:11:08.020 Yeah,

00:11:08.760 I think that's

00:11:09.540 fair.

00:11:10.820 And then it goes on

00:11:11.600 to say just weeks

00:11:12.560 after the conclusion

00:11:13.480 of the winter 18 season

00:11:15.460 in which Terry

00:11:16.280 had been running

00:11:16.800 with the boys

00:11:17.520 Terry abruptly

00:11:20.400 appeared competing

00:11:21.780 in the girls events

00:11:23.080 in the spring of 18.

00:11:24.540 So the same

00:11:25.220 year

00:11:26.140 in the spring of 18

00:11:27.640 outdoor track season.

00:11:28.740 So was that

00:11:30.000 the first you knew

00:11:30.820 of Terry

00:11:31.240 or you saw Terry

00:11:32.280 in races

00:11:33.300 and meets

00:11:34.280 that you were

00:11:34.660 going to be competing

00:11:35.220 in?

00:11:35.880 Yeah,

00:11:36.040 my first time

00:11:36.900 competing against

00:11:37.860 Terry was one

00:11:38.700 of the first meets

00:11:40.260 of my outdoor

00:11:41.320 2018 season

00:11:42.480 and I was aware

00:11:44.360 that Terry

00:11:45.540 was a biological

00:11:47.060 male identifying

00:11:48.060 as a girl.

00:11:50.000 And how old

00:11:50.800 were you guys

00:11:51.240 at this point?

00:11:51.820 So your sophomore

00:11:52.400 is what,

00:11:52.920 15, 16?

00:11:54.560 Yeah,

00:11:55.080 I believe I was 15.

00:11:57.540 Okay.

00:11:58.400 And forgive

00:11:59.440 the indelicacy of this

00:12:00.600 but it's part

00:12:01.120 of what we're discussing.

00:12:01.860 Did Terry's body

00:12:04.040 look like the body

00:12:05.880 of a boy

00:12:07.140 or a girl

00:12:08.300 or was it

00:12:09.040 really neither

00:12:09.960 at that point?

00:12:11.180 I don't think

00:12:11.660 it was necessarily

00:12:12.880 very obvious

00:12:15.000 or like striking.

00:12:16.540 Like it wasn't like

00:12:17.360 I lined up

00:12:18.020 and I was like,

00:12:18.700 oh, there's like

00:12:19.440 this huge man

00:12:21.480 beside me

00:12:22.060 or anything like that.

00:12:22.860 It wasn't necessarily

00:12:23.780 that obvious

00:12:25.180 but I definitely do think

00:12:26.160 there are like

00:12:26.840 some differences

00:12:28.040 between females 0.97

00:12:29.720 and males

00:12:30.120 that can be

00:12:30.820 easily spotted.

00:12:31.860 If you're looking

00:12:33.180 hard enough.

00:12:34.680 For sure.

00:12:35.180 Right.

00:12:35.460 And was this

00:12:36.240 a thing?

00:12:37.480 Zalik,

00:12:37.780 you saw Terry

00:12:38.660 at an inter-school

00:12:40.300 competition

00:12:41.100 since Terry

00:12:42.300 didn't go to your school.

00:12:43.480 Was it like

00:12:44.280 announced?

00:12:45.000 Did you know

00:12:45.460 this was coming?

00:12:46.920 My coach

00:12:47.660 had kind of

00:12:49.180 talked to me

00:12:49.820 about it

00:12:50.200 the day before

00:12:51.000 and said that

00:12:52.580 they

00:12:53.500 had mistakenly

00:12:55.440 entered

00:12:55.980 a boy

00:12:56.980 into the

00:12:57.800 girls category.

00:12:58.840 however

00:12:59.940 since

00:13:00.560 we had

00:13:01.320 kind of

00:13:01.640 encountered

00:13:02.140 this

00:13:02.760 the year

00:13:03.180 before

00:13:03.520 with

00:13:03.880 Andrea

00:13:04.440 when I

00:13:05.760 talked to

00:13:06.120 my mom

00:13:06.500 later

00:13:06.900 that day

00:13:07.800 she wasn't

00:13:08.620 so sure

00:13:09.160 that it

00:13:09.520 was a mistake

00:13:10.440 and thought

00:13:10.820 that this

00:13:11.340 might be

00:13:11.700 another

00:13:12.080 transgender

00:13:12.880 runner

00:13:14.120 in our

00:13:16.200 kind of

00:13:17.080 league.

00:13:18.440 Okay.

00:13:18.740 So Andrea

00:13:19.220 was the first

00:13:19.780 you competed

00:13:20.220 against.

00:13:20.700 Is that

00:13:20.940 correct?

00:13:22.140 Yeah.

00:13:22.880 And what

00:13:23.540 year did

00:13:24.060 you see

00:13:24.360 Andrea

00:13:24.680 for the

00:13:24.980 first time?

00:13:25.380 Your freshman

00:13:25.960 year then?

00:13:27.300 Yeah.

00:13:27.540 I competed

00:13:27.900 against Andrea

00:13:28.660 at the

00:13:29.300 state open

00:13:29.880 my freshman

00:13:30.420 year.

00:13:31.560 And

00:13:32.040 how did

00:13:33.580 you do?

00:13:34.060 How did

00:13:34.500 that come

00:13:35.000 out?

00:13:35.920 Well

00:13:36.320 I placed

00:13:38.800 seventh

00:13:39.960 in the

00:13:40.400 100 meter

00:13:40.840 dash

00:13:41.300 at the

00:13:42.140 state open

00:13:42.540 as a

00:13:42.900 freshman

00:13:43.240 however

00:13:45.040 top six

00:13:46.100 advanced

00:13:46.580 the New

00:13:46.900 England

00:13:47.080 final

00:13:47.580 Andrea

00:13:48.680 placed

00:13:49.040 third

00:13:49.360 so if

00:13:50.480 Andrea

00:13:50.780 hadn't

00:13:51.120 been in

00:13:51.380 the

00:13:51.500 race

00:13:51.820 I

00:13:52.380 would

00:13:52.580 have

00:13:53.040 gotten

00:13:54.020 a

00:13:54.180 medal

00:13:54.420 and

00:13:54.720 advanced

00:13:55.160 the

00:13:55.320 New

00:13:55.420 England

00:13:55.700 championship

00:13:56.600 as a

00:13:56.960 freshman

00:13:57.220 however

00:13:57.680 because

00:13:58.800 of it

00:13:59.120 I did

00:13:59.420 not.

00:14:00.840 Okay.

00:14:01.660 So you're

00:14:01.920 already

00:14:02.200 sort of

00:14:02.500 spotting

00:14:03.080 a potential

00:14:04.400 issue

00:14:04.760 here.

00:14:05.300 And did

00:14:06.020 you have

00:14:06.240 to race

00:14:06.700 or compete

00:14:07.400 against

00:14:07.700 Andrea

00:14:08.040 more

00:14:09.140 that year

00:14:09.660 as a

00:14:09.880 freshman?

00:14:11.540 That was

00:14:12.280 the only

00:14:12.620 time my

00:14:13.240 freshman

00:14:13.600 year.

00:14:14.540 I did

00:14:15.140 compete

00:14:15.480 against

00:14:15.780 Andrea

00:14:16.140 my

00:14:16.440 sophomore

00:14:16.860 year

00:14:17.160 in

00:14:17.320 indoor

00:14:17.680 at

00:14:18.000 States.

00:14:19.000 I

00:14:19.200 believe

00:14:19.440 I

00:14:19.640 placed

00:14:20.100 fourth

00:14:21.040 in the

00:14:21.800 55

00:14:22.160 meter

00:14:22.420 dash

00:14:22.780 where

00:14:23.180 Andrea

00:14:23.880 won

00:14:24.360 the

00:14:24.960 title.

00:14:26.420 And

00:14:26.740 Andrea

00:14:27.320 how had

00:14:28.380 Andrea

00:14:29.280 been running

00:14:29.920 on the

00:14:30.460 boys

00:14:30.760 team

00:14:31.160 prior to

00:14:31.820 that

00:14:32.100 you know

00:14:32.900 to running

00:14:33.200 on the

00:14:33.420 girls 0.98

00:14:33.600 team

00:14:33.840 as a

00:14:34.200 as a

00:14:34.460 freshman

00:14:34.700 and a

00:14:34.940 sophomore?

00:14:35.200 No, I

00:14:36.940 think

00:14:37.140 Andrea

00:14:37.660 came into

00:14:39.200 high school

00:14:39.760 identifying

00:14:40.580 as female.

00:14:41.460 I don't

00:14:41.680 think that

00:14:42.340 she started 0.79

00:14:43.220 on the

00:14:43.520 boys

00:14:43.760 team

00:14:44.080 as

00:14:44.600 Terry

00:14:44.860 did.

00:14:45.940 Okay.

00:14:47.620 So

00:14:48.180 now you

00:14:49.220 start running

00:14:49.560 against

00:14:49.880 Terry

00:14:50.180 and how

00:14:50.540 did you

00:14:50.700 do

00:14:50.800 against

00:14:51.080 Terry

00:14:51.420 who

00:14:52.380 had

00:14:52.680 gone

00:14:53.020 through

00:14:53.540 more

00:14:54.400 time

00:14:55.080 living

00:14:55.880 as a

00:14:56.640 boy

00:14:56.940 and

00:14:57.320 going

00:14:57.540 through

00:14:57.740 male

00:14:57.980 puberty

00:14:58.400 than

00:14:59.080 Andrea

00:14:59.520 had?

00:14:59.920 Well to

00:15:01.920 be honest

00:15:02.480 I

00:15:03.260 it was

00:15:04.340 not

00:15:04.680 even

00:15:05.060 like a

00:15:05.660 competition

00:15:06.220 especially

00:15:07.800 my

00:15:08.140 sophomore

00:15:08.480 year

00:15:08.920 you know

00:15:10.240 I think

00:15:10.520 the first

00:15:10.920 time I

00:15:11.340 raced

00:15:11.560 against

00:15:11.880 Terry

00:15:12.340 she ran

00:15:13.940 like a

00:15:14.420 low

00:15:15.120 12

00:15:15.580 second

00:15:16.460 100

00:15:17.040 and I

00:15:17.560 was barely

00:15:18.620 under 13

00:15:19.540 seconds.

00:15:20.100 It was

00:15:20.260 just a

00:15:20.600 huge

00:15:21.160 margin

00:15:22.000 of time

00:15:23.560 and as

00:15:24.400 the season

00:15:24.980 progressed

00:15:25.580 none

00:15:26.640 not

00:15:27.520 myself

00:15:28.620 nor other

00:15:29.540 girls 0.98

00:15:30.180 could

00:15:30.460 come

00:15:30.900 even

00:15:31.120 close

00:15:31.460 it

00:15:31.620 was

00:15:31.840 over

00:15:32.380 half

00:15:32.660 a

00:15:32.800 second

00:15:33.100 difference

00:15:34.200 between

00:15:34.800 Terry's

00:15:35.580 time

00:15:35.880 and the

00:15:36.160 rest

00:15:36.320 of the

00:15:36.540 girls 0.98

00:15:36.880 competing.

00:15:39.160 So how

00:15:39.340 did that

00:15:39.620 feel for

00:15:40.100 you?

00:15:40.800 It was

00:15:41.020 really

00:15:41.200 frustrating

00:15:41.780 especially

00:15:42.800 because

00:15:44.100 you know

00:15:44.580 I was

00:15:44.860 seeing

00:15:45.160 myself

00:15:45.580 improve

00:15:45.980 a lot

00:15:46.520 and get

00:15:47.800 up to

00:15:48.400 like the

00:15:48.720 higher

00:15:48.960 ranks

00:15:49.340 in the

00:15:49.720 state

00:15:50.080 and just

00:15:51.300 like

00:15:51.840 place

00:15:52.760 so far

00:15:53.720 back

00:15:54.040 from what

00:15:54.700 I should

00:15:55.320 have

00:15:55.480 placed

00:15:55.880 was

00:15:57.240 definitely

00:15:57.620 really

00:15:58.380 hard

00:15:58.820 and

00:15:59.160 you know

00:15:59.800 just

00:16:00.200 knowing

00:16:00.520 that I

00:16:00.920 could

00:16:01.140 have

00:16:01.300 been

00:16:01.660 you know

00:16:02.300 state

00:16:02.580 runner

00:16:02.800 up

00:16:03.120 but I

00:16:04.520 wasn't

00:16:05.140 was

00:16:05.840 definitely

00:16:06.240 hard

00:16:07.460 and I

00:16:07.720 just

00:16:07.900 tried to

00:16:08.340 kind of

00:16:08.680 block

00:16:08.940 it out

00:16:09.240 and push 0.99

00:16:09.600 it away

00:16:09.920 but

00:16:10.260 it was

00:16:10.920 always

00:16:11.120 kind of

00:16:11.600 in the

00:16:11.860 back

00:16:12.020 of my

00:16:12.240 mind

00:16:12.480 that

00:16:12.680 that's

00:16:13.120 what

00:16:13.320 I

00:16:13.460 lost.

00:16:14.880 What was

00:16:15.060 the dynamic

00:16:15.680 at the

00:16:16.260 meets

00:16:16.560 you know

00:16:16.940 when you'd

00:16:17.340 see Andrea

00:16:17.860 or you'd

00:16:18.280 see Terry

00:16:18.900 you know

00:16:19.620 I'm sure

00:16:19.880 you weren't

00:16:20.160 the only

00:16:20.420 girl 0.91

00:16:20.740 having

00:16:21.360 this

00:16:21.640 frustration

00:16:22.200 so what

00:16:22.880 was it

00:16:23.140 like

00:16:23.320 between

00:16:23.660 you

00:16:24.140 and

00:16:24.380 them?

00:16:25.340 It

00:16:29.160 that

00:16:29.740 tense

00:16:30.140 but it

00:16:30.480 just

00:16:30.660 kind of

00:16:31.060 happened

00:16:31.480 I

00:16:33.320 remember

00:16:33.600 at one

00:16:34.000 meet

00:16:34.360 there

00:16:35.180 was

00:16:35.660 a bunch

00:16:36.820 of

00:16:37.020 cameras

00:16:37.520 following

00:16:38.480 Andrea

00:16:39.300 around

00:16:39.840 because

00:16:40.240 they

00:16:40.480 were

00:16:40.760 filming

00:16:41.520 a

00:16:41.700 documentary

00:16:42.160 and

00:16:42.560 just

00:16:43.060 having

00:16:43.400 that

00:16:43.640 kind

00:16:43.860 of

00:16:43.980 atmosphere

00:16:44.700 while

00:16:46.020 you're

00:16:46.240 trying

00:16:46.500 to

00:16:46.660 compete

00:16:47.140 and

00:16:47.420 trying

00:16:47.760 to

00:16:47.980 focus

00:16:48.460 on

00:16:49.040 your

00:16:49.200 race

00:16:49.460 was

00:16:49.660 definitely

00:16:50.120 not

00:16:51.340 right

00:16:52.840 and it

00:16:53.380 just

00:16:53.600 wasn't

00:16:54.240 a good

00:16:54.720 atmosphere

00:16:55.660 for any

00:16:56.200 of us

00:16:56.540 girls 0.98

00:16:56.740 I think

00:16:57.040 it was

00:16:57.220 very

00:16:57.440 stressful

00:16:57.900 and

00:16:58.640 very

00:16:59.080 kind

00:17:00.400 of

00:17:00.520 just

00:17:00.720 hard

00:17:01.220 to

00:17:01.440 be

00:17:01.740 in

00:17:01.980 that

00:17:02.200 atmosphere

00:17:02.640 for

00:17:02.900 such

00:17:03.140 a

00:17:03.320 prolonged

00:17:03.680 amount

00:17:03.940 of

00:17:04.080 time

00:17:04.440 I

00:17:05.540 know

00:17:06.900 at

00:17:07.040 this

00:17:07.200 time

00:17:07.480 your

00:17:07.660 mom

00:17:07.980 Christy

00:17:08.480 was

00:17:09.440 starting

00:17:09.820 to

00:17:09.980 get

00:17:10.200 involved

00:17:11.460 in

00:17:11.920 trying

00:17:12.400 to

00:17:12.560 address

00:17:12.860 this

00:17:13.220 and

00:17:14.000 she

00:17:14.420 has

00:17:14.660 said

00:17:15.020 she

00:17:15.320 tried

00:17:15.600 to

00:17:15.740 reach

00:17:15.900 out

00:17:16.100 to

00:17:16.240 all

00:17:16.440 the

00:17:16.560 authorities

00:17:16.940 involved

00:17:17.500 and

00:17:18.340 this

00:17:18.880 is

00:17:19.000 a

00:17:19.080 quote

00:17:19.280 not

00:17:19.460 a

00:17:19.580 single

00:17:19.800 person

00:17:20.120 was

00:17:20.320 willing

00:17:20.540 to

00:17:20.700 engage

00:17:21.040 in

00:17:21.160 a

00:17:21.280 reasoned

00:17:21.640 discussion

00:17:22.040 about

00:17:22.440 this

00:17:22.660 issue

00:17:22.900 even

00:17:23.220 feminist

00:17:23.740 groups

00:17:24.120 like

00:17:24.340 the

00:17:24.480 national

00:17:24.740 women's

00:17:25.140 law

00:17:25.460 center

00:17:25.820 have

00:17:26.740 sided

00:17:27.100 with

00:17:27.380 biological

00:17:27.920 males 0.81

00:17:28.320 on this

00:17:28.660 issue

00:17:28.900 rather than

00:17:29.420 the

00:17:29.580 young

00:17:29.760 women 1.00

00:17:30.080 they

00:17:30.300 claim

00:17:30.600 to

00:17:30.760 represent

00:17:31.180 and

00:17:32.100 she

00:17:32.280 just

00:17:32.500 kept

00:17:32.700 getting

00:17:32.940 told

00:17:33.440 quote

00:17:34.300 your

00:17:34.480 daughter

00:17:34.760 has

00:17:34.980 the

00:17:35.120 right

00:17:35.280 to

00:17:35.440 participate

00:17:35.900 but

00:17:36.180 not

00:17:36.340 to

00:17:36.500 win

00:17:36.740 what

00:17:39.140 do

00:17:39.280 you

00:17:39.360 make

00:17:39.540 of

00:17:39.640 that

00:17:39.800 argument

00:17:40.080 that

00:17:40.320 you

00:17:40.500 had

00:17:40.640 the

00:17:40.760 right

00:17:40.900 to

00:17:41.040 participate

00:17:41.520 but

00:17:41.840 not

00:17:42.020 to

00:17:42.180 win

00:17:42.400 I

00:17:43.320 don't

00:17:43.480 agree

00:17:43.700 with

00:17:43.880 it

00:17:44.020 at

00:17:44.140 all

00:17:44.380 I

00:17:44.620 mean

00:17:44.880 we

00:17:45.420 have

00:17:45.820 legal

00:17:46.220 protections

00:17:46.900 put

00:17:47.660 in

00:17:47.860 place

00:17:48.220 so

00:17:48.380 that

00:17:48.560 girls 0.98

00:17:48.820 can

00:17:49.020 have

00:17:49.420 equal

00:17:50.140 opportunities

00:17:50.880 and

00:17:52.260 to

00:17:52.540 kind

00:17:52.740 of

00:17:52.860 hear

00:17:53.300 our

00:17:54.380 own

00:17:54.600 lawmakers

00:17:55.080 kind

00:17:55.540 of

00:17:55.660 dismiss

00:17:56.240 female 0.86

00:17:57.840 athletic

00:17:58.640 abilities

00:17:59.120 and say

00:17:59.660 that

00:18:00.000 our

00:18:00.660 chances

00:18:01.060 to win

00:18:01.820 and to

00:18:02.140 compete

00:18:02.540 don't

00:18:02.940 matter

00:18:03.380 it's

00:18:04.620 really hard

00:18:05.000 to hear

00:18:05.280 especially

00:18:05.600 because

00:18:06.120 we see

00:18:07.040 all of

00:18:07.780 our

00:18:07.900 male

00:18:08.220 counterparts

00:18:08.880 you know

00:18:09.500 getting

00:18:10.040 to

00:18:10.560 succeed

00:18:11.360 and

00:18:11.880 win

00:18:12.520 and

00:18:12.920 you know

00:18:13.400 get all

00:18:13.800 the

00:18:14.080 press

00:18:14.580 and stuff

00:18:15.120 and

00:18:15.420 we

00:18:15.860 don't

00:18:16.020 get that

00:18:16.500 and it's

00:18:16.800 kind of

00:18:17.600 really

00:18:17.900 frustrating

00:18:18.540 to hear

00:18:18.860 other

00:18:19.040 people

00:18:19.360 dismiss

00:18:19.920 women 1.00

00:18:20.660 like

00:18:20.940 that

00:18:21.280 but

00:18:23.340 now

00:18:23.640 here's

00:18:24.120 where

00:18:24.380 here's

00:18:25.180 what

00:18:25.360 the

00:18:25.540 other

00:18:25.760 side

00:18:26.080 will

00:18:26.240 use

00:18:26.440 against

00:18:26.780 you

00:18:27.000 and I

00:18:27.220 mean

00:18:27.360 the

00:18:27.480 other

00:18:27.600 side

00:18:27.780 in

00:18:27.880 the

00:18:27.960 lawsuit

00:18:28.220 you've

00:18:29.120 beaten

00:18:29.320 them

00:18:29.560 you've

00:18:30.440 you've

00:18:30.800 beaten

00:18:31.100 I think

00:18:31.860 both

00:18:32.220 Andrea

00:18:32.800 and

00:18:33.140 Terry

00:18:33.500 and

00:18:35.120 they

00:18:35.980 they'll

00:18:36.420 say

00:18:36.960 that

00:18:38.140 proves

00:18:38.700 it

00:18:38.840 can

00:18:38.960 be

00:18:39.140 done

00:18:39.480 and

00:18:40.180 that

00:18:40.320 there's

00:18:40.500 no

00:18:40.660 inherent

00:18:41.060 advantage

00:18:41.740 to

00:18:42.500 trans

00:18:43.080 girls 0.98

00:18:43.520 and

00:18:45.040 you know

00:18:45.940 undercuts

00:18:47.160 your

00:18:47.400 argument

00:18:47.740 that

00:18:47.960 it's

00:18:48.080 unfair

00:18:48.340 to

00:18:48.560 allow

00:18:48.760 them

00:18:49.060 to

00:18:49.560 compete

00:18:49.940 in the

00:18:50.480 girls 0.98

00:18:50.680 league

00:18:50.980 yeah

00:18:52.260 those

00:18:52.660 times

00:18:53.240 that

00:18:53.580 I

00:18:53.780 won

00:18:54.180 were

00:18:54.500 very

00:18:54.920 isolated

00:18:55.940 incidents

00:18:56.800 both

00:18:58.040 of them

00:18:58.440 were

00:18:58.740 in the

00:18:59.900 case

00:19:00.140 of a

00:19:00.420 false

00:19:00.680 start

00:19:01.100 where

00:19:01.400 the

00:19:01.740 top

00:19:02.400 seeded

00:19:03.100 biological

00:19:03.860 male

00:19:04.360 had

00:19:04.780 been

00:19:05.440 disqualified

00:19:06.040 from

00:19:06.400 the

00:19:06.560 race

00:19:06.960 my

00:19:08.080 senior

00:19:08.400 year

00:19:08.700 when

00:19:08.920 I

00:19:09.600 beat

00:19:10.820 Terry

00:19:11.360 Andrea

00:19:12.480 who

00:19:13.100 was

00:19:13.300 seated

00:19:13.580 fifth

00:19:14.500 in the

00:19:14.760 nation

00:19:15.180 for

00:19:15.600 the

00:19:15.760 girls 0.98

00:19:16.020 55

00:19:16.520 meter

00:19:16.940 dash

00:19:17.440 had

00:19:18.120 false

00:19:18.380 started

00:19:18.740 in the

00:19:19.060 prelims

00:19:19.980 and

00:19:20.680 therefore

00:19:21.020 could

00:19:21.460 not

00:19:21.840 run

00:19:22.420 against

00:19:22.760 me

00:19:23.200 for

00:19:23.940 the

00:19:24.120 championship

00:19:24.620 and

00:19:24.980 so

00:19:25.280 I

00:19:25.820 am

00:19:26.080 very

00:19:26.340 confident

00:19:26.860 that

00:19:27.340 if

00:19:27.900 Andrea

00:19:28.280 had

00:19:28.600 raced

00:19:28.840 against

00:19:29.180 me

00:19:29.580 that

00:19:30.820 I

00:19:31.060 would

00:19:31.220 have

00:19:31.340 been

00:19:31.520 beat

00:19:31.860 by

00:19:32.320 a

00:19:32.820 significant

00:19:33.260 margin

00:19:33.720 and

00:19:34.060 not

00:19:34.280 have

00:19:34.520 won

00:19:34.780 that

00:19:35.040 title

00:19:35.440 and

00:19:36.700 also

00:19:36.980 it's

00:19:37.320 about

00:19:37.600 the

00:19:38.300 girls 0.98

00:19:38.620 that

00:19:39.040 should

00:19:39.580 have

00:19:39.820 medaled

00:19:40.580 or

00:19:40.760 should

00:19:40.960 have

00:19:41.140 advanced

00:19:41.620 to

00:19:41.860 the

00:19:42.200 next

00:19:42.660 level

00:19:42.880 of

00:19:43.040 competition

00:19:43.540 because

00:19:44.260 their

00:19:44.740 opportunities

00:19:45.260 matter

00:19:45.660 as

00:19:45.940 well

00:19:46.180 and

00:19:47.360 so

00:19:47.720 you

00:19:48.240 know

00:19:48.320 it's

00:19:48.460 more

00:19:48.640 about

00:19:49.000 the

00:19:49.460 average

00:19:49.880 how

00:19:50.760 the

00:19:51.440 average

00:19:51.820 male

00:19:52.200 can

00:19:52.800 dominate

00:19:53.240 an

00:19:53.840 elite

00:19:54.140 female 0.86

00:19:54.600 it's

00:19:55.540 not

00:19:55.800 necessarily

00:19:56.580 oh

00:19:57.240 these

00:19:57.460 one

00:19:57.660 or

00:19:57.800 two

00:19:57.920 times

00:19:58.220 I

00:19:58.360 mean

00:19:58.480 I

00:19:58.620 raced

00:19:58.860 against

00:19:59.180 them

00:19:59.540 I

00:20:00.540 think

00:20:00.800 over

00:20:01.140 30

00:20:01.540 times

00:20:02.100 in my

00:20:02.540 high

00:20:02.720 school

00:20:02.880 career

00:20:03.200 at

00:20:03.480 big

00:20:03.760 championship

00:20:04.280 meets

00:20:04.620 and

00:20:04.780 so

00:20:05.020 those

00:20:06.380 one

00:20:06.600 or

00:20:06.740 two

00:20:06.880 times

00:20:07.220 I'm

00:20:07.440 grateful

00:20:08.740 to

00:20:09.140 have

00:20:09.340 had

00:20:09.540 those

00:20:09.840 opportunities

00:20:10.420 to

00:20:10.920 succeed

00:20:11.480 and

00:20:11.680 win

00:20:11.900 but

00:20:12.240 they

00:20:12.640 were

00:20:12.720 very

00:20:12.960 isolated

00:20:13.440 incidents

00:20:14.160 Megan

00:20:15.280 she

00:20:16.300 actually

00:20:16.900 lost

00:20:18.500 four

00:20:18.940 state

00:20:19.280 championships

00:20:19.960 in two

00:20:20.500 New

00:20:20.720 England

00:20:20.980 titles

00:20:21.560 amid

00:20:22.700 those

00:20:23.120 30

00:20:23.760 times

00:20:24.240 that

00:20:24.420 she

00:20:24.560 had

00:20:24.780 to

00:20:24.920 compete

00:20:25.240 against

00:20:25.540 the

00:20:25.680 males 0.81

00:20:25.860 so

00:20:26.100 Chelsea

00:20:26.380 is

00:20:26.520 too

00:20:26.680 modest

00:20:26.920 to

00:20:27.140 say

00:20:27.320 that

00:20:27.640 and

00:20:28.060 she

00:20:28.860 would

00:20:29.000 have

00:20:29.080 been

00:20:29.200 ranked

00:20:29.440 the

00:20:29.600 fastest

00:20:29.980 girl 0.91

00:20:30.360 in

00:20:30.520 all

00:20:30.700 of

00:20:30.820 Connecticut

00:20:31.200 except

00:20:32.040 for

00:20:32.300 the

00:20:32.440 fact

00:20:32.700 that

00:20:32.940 a

00:20:33.100 biological

00:20:33.540 male

00:20:33.900 put

00:20:34.120 that

00:20:34.300 position

00:20:34.740 what

00:20:37.260 did

00:20:38.220 that

00:20:38.440 do

00:20:38.680 to

00:20:38.820 you

00:20:38.940 you

00:20:39.120 know

00:20:39.200 your

00:20:39.360 mom

00:20:39.740 talked

00:20:41.280 a bit

00:20:41.620 about

00:20:42.020 you know

00:20:42.540 publicly

00:20:42.840 she said

00:20:43.540 that you

00:20:44.320 felt

00:20:44.660 sick

00:20:45.040 you would

00:20:45.280 feel

00:20:45.460 physically

00:20:45.980 sick

00:20:46.560 before

00:20:46.920 these

00:20:47.200 races

00:20:47.720 is that

00:20:48.780 so

00:20:49.220 and

00:20:49.520 why

00:20:50.160 there

00:20:50.760 there

00:20:50.780 there

00:20:50.800 was

00:20:50.940 definitely

00:20:51.300 a

00:20:51.860 really

00:20:52.060 big

00:20:52.400 mental

00:20:52.880 aspect

00:20:53.420 to

00:20:54.320 racing

00:20:56.100 against

00:20:56.500 them

00:20:56.740 I

00:20:57.040 think

00:20:57.380 a lot

00:20:58.020 of

00:20:58.160 track

00:20:58.400 athletes

00:20:58.760 can

00:20:58.960 agree

00:20:59.260 that

00:20:59.760 track

00:21:00.300 is

00:21:00.500 a

00:21:00.780 very

00:21:00.940 mental

00:21:01.400 sport

00:21:02.740 as well

00:21:03.240 as

00:21:03.400 physical

00:21:03.760 so

00:21:04.580 it

00:21:04.700 wasn't

00:21:04.980 just

00:21:05.360 that

00:21:06.020 you

00:21:06.240 know

00:21:06.320 I

00:21:06.480 wasn't

00:21:06.800 fast

00:21:07.180 enough

00:21:07.460 to

00:21:07.740 race

00:21:08.340 against

00:21:08.620 them

00:21:08.780 it

00:21:08.900 was

00:21:09.040 that

00:21:09.300 I

00:21:09.920 was

00:21:10.100 already

00:21:10.420 coming

00:21:10.740 into

00:21:11.040 the

00:21:11.220 race

00:21:11.540 knowing

00:21:12.420 that

00:21:12.700 I

00:21:12.920 couldn't

00:21:13.240 win

00:21:13.580 and

00:21:13.720 that

00:21:13.900 I

00:21:14.240 wasn't

00:21:15.260 going

00:21:15.400 to be

00:21:15.660 able

00:21:15.920 to

00:21:16.180 beat

00:21:16.420 them

00:21:16.720 and

00:21:16.860 so

00:21:17.140 I

00:21:17.500 already

00:21:17.860 had

00:21:18.160 this

00:21:18.380 huge

00:21:18.860 mental

00:21:19.640 block

00:21:20.140 on

00:21:20.380 me

00:21:20.600 and

00:21:20.740 I

00:21:20.900 couldn't

00:21:21.520 relax

00:21:22.040 I

00:21:22.220 couldn't

00:21:22.720 focus

00:21:23.160 on

00:21:23.380 what

00:21:23.520 I

00:21:23.660 actually

00:21:24.060 needed

00:21:24.600 to

00:21:24.780 do

00:21:24.940 in

00:21:25.040 the

00:21:25.120 race

00:21:25.280 because

00:21:25.500 I

00:21:25.660 was

00:21:25.800 so

00:21:26.240 like

00:21:27.340 blocked

00:21:28.140 by

00:21:28.400 this

00:21:28.680 idea

00:21:29.060 that

00:21:29.280 I

00:21:29.680 had

00:21:29.920 no

00:21:30.160 chance

00:21:30.620 to

00:21:30.800 beat

00:21:30.980 them

00:21:31.280 right

00:21:33.420 I

00:21:34.000 mean

00:21:34.140 it

00:21:34.280 would

00:21:34.480 be

00:21:34.700 that

00:21:34.960 would

00:21:35.140 of

00:21:35.400 course

00:21:35.760 get

00:21:36.060 in

00:21:36.180 your

00:21:36.340 head

00:21:36.740 I

00:21:38.480 can't

00:21:39.440 imagine

00:21:40.020 because

00:21:40.380 while

00:21:40.780 all

00:21:41.040 this

00:21:41.220 is

00:21:41.400 going

00:21:41.660 on

00:21:42.240 sadly

00:21:43.260 you're

00:21:44.460 being

00:21:44.660 called

00:21:44.860 a

00:21:44.980 transphobe

00:21:45.460 right

00:21:45.980 like

00:21:46.200 your

00:21:46.380 mom

00:21:46.720 for

00:21:46.920 pushing

00:21:47.220 back

00:21:47.660 you

00:21:47.880 guys

00:21:48.100 for

00:21:48.260 filing

00:21:48.660 the

00:21:48.920 lawsuit

00:21:49.540 the

00:21:50.180 knee

00:21:50.460 jerk

00:21:50.640 reaction

00:21:51.140 of

00:21:51.600 anybody

00:21:52.120 who's

00:21:52.500 been

00:21:52.700 advocating

00:21:53.280 on

00:21:53.560 behalf

00:21:53.840 of

00:21:53.940 the

00:21:54.040 trans

00:21:54.300 community

00:21:54.680 is

00:21:55.720 you

00:21:56.560 are

00:21:57.040 transphobic

00:21:57.960 and

00:21:58.260 this

00:21:58.520 lawsuit

00:21:58.920 is

00:21:59.120 transphobic

00:21:59.800 and

00:22:00.500 you've

00:22:00.700 got

00:22:00.820 a

00:22:00.980 race

00:22:01.320 in

00:22:01.500 this

00:22:01.720 under

00:22:02.340 these

00:22:02.620 conditions

00:22:03.100 how

00:22:03.360 is

00:22:03.520 that

00:22:03.700 affecting

00:22:04.100 you

00:22:04.560 it

00:22:05.320 was

00:22:05.480 definitely

00:22:05.760 hard

00:22:06.320 you know

00:22:07.340 it

00:22:07.520 took

00:22:07.720 me

00:22:08.120 a

00:22:08.280 while

00:22:08.620 to

00:22:08.920 kind

00:22:09.200 of

00:22:09.720 come

00:22:10.000 public

00:22:14.460 complaint

00:22:14.940 but

00:22:16.340 you know

00:22:17.560 when I

00:22:17.880 did

00:22:18.140 I

00:22:18.300 kind

00:22:18.620 of

00:22:18.740 just

00:22:18.940 tried

00:22:19.180 my

00:22:19.380 best

00:22:19.700 to

00:22:20.200 push 0.64

00:22:20.860 that

00:22:21.060 aside

00:22:21.620 and

00:22:21.820 kind

00:22:21.980 of

00:22:22.080 just

00:22:22.280 focus

00:22:22.680 as

00:22:22.960 much

00:22:23.140 as

00:22:23.260 I

00:22:23.400 could

00:22:23.740 on

00:22:24.460 racing

00:22:24.980 you

00:22:26.180 know

00:22:26.340 of

00:22:26.580 course

00:22:26.820 people

00:22:27.040 are

00:22:27.220 going

00:22:27.340 to

00:22:27.480 say

00:22:27.700 what

00:22:27.860 they

00:22:28.000 want

00:22:28.400 about

00:22:30.000 you

00:22:30.400 know

00:22:30.460 the

00:22:30.620 lawsuit

00:22:30.940 but

00:22:31.480 I

00:22:32.120 tried

00:22:32.400 really

00:22:32.660 just

00:22:32.940 not

00:22:33.280 to

00:22:33.580 focus

00:22:34.080 on

00:22:34.320 that

00:22:34.500 and

00:22:34.620 just

00:22:34.740 kind

00:22:34.920 of

00:22:35.020 focus

00:22:35.420 on

00:22:36.320 my

00:22:37.120 race

00:22:37.340 which

00:22:37.520 obviously

00:22:38.000 you

00:22:38.580 know

00:22:38.660 like I

00:22:38.920 said

00:22:39.180 huge

00:22:39.580 mental

00:22:39.880 block

00:22:40.260 but

00:22:44.460 high

00:22:44.620 school

00:22:44.800 career

00:22:45.080 was

00:22:45.320 the

00:22:45.460 lawsuit

00:22:45.720 filed

00:22:46.100 my

00:22:47.500 senior

00:22:47.820 year

00:22:48.240 okay

00:22:49.280 so

00:22:50.400 but

00:22:50.800 I

00:22:50.900 mean

00:22:50.960 it

00:22:51.020 was

00:22:51.100 tense

00:22:51.340 before

00:22:51.660 that

00:22:51.860 then

00:22:52.020 you

00:22:52.100 filed

00:22:52.320 a

00:22:52.480 lawsuit

00:22:52.780 and

00:22:53.040 it

00:22:53.360 goes

00:22:53.500 forward

00:22:53.680 and

00:22:53.780 we'll

00:22:53.880 get

00:22:54.060 to

00:22:54.320 what

00:22:54.700 happened

00:22:54.960 with

00:22:55.120 that

00:22:55.280 in a

00:22:55.460 minute

00:22:55.560 with

00:22:55.740 Kristen

00:22:56.020 so

00:22:57.580 do

00:22:58.300 you

00:22:58.480 feel

00:22:58.680 you

00:22:58.880 wound

00:22:59.140 up

00:22:59.260 at

00:22:59.340 a

00:22:59.440 great

00:22:59.600 school

00:22:59.860 you're

00:23:00.160 running

00:23:00.460 track

00:23:00.860 for

00:23:01.120 William

00:23:01.400 and

00:23:01.560 Mary

00:23:01.800 do

00:23:02.680 you

00:23:02.840 feel

00:23:03.140 like

00:23:03.420 in

00:23:04.040 the

00:23:04.200 end

00:23:04.520 you

00:23:04.700 were

00:23:04.840 hurt

00:23:05.040 by

00:23:05.220 this

00:23:05.560 I

00:23:06.400 do

00:23:14.460 able

00:23:14.680 to

00:23:14.860 measure

00:23:15.240 how

00:23:15.840 much

00:23:16.180 my

00:23:16.580 college

00:23:17.060 recruitment

00:23:17.500 was

00:23:17.960 impacted

00:23:18.520 by

00:23:19.600 having

00:23:20.720 biological

00:23:21.260 males 0.81

00:23:21.560 in my

00:23:21.880 race

00:23:22.280 the

00:23:23.320 one

00:23:23.680 race

00:23:24.580 where

00:23:24.940 Terry

00:23:25.360 Falls

00:23:25.600 started

00:23:25.980 and I

00:23:26.320 was

00:23:26.460 able

00:23:26.700 to

00:23:27.000 win

00:23:27.360 the

00:23:28.060 Connecticut

00:23:28.540 State

00:23:28.940 Open

00:23:29.240 in the

00:23:29.560 100

00:23:29.780 meters

00:23:30.200 I

00:23:31.400 ran

00:23:31.720 a huge

00:23:32.520 personal

00:23:32.980 best

00:23:33.500 I

00:23:35.140 qualified

00:23:36.040 for the

00:23:36.500 championship

00:23:36.900 division

00:23:37.360 at

00:23:37.580 nationals

00:23:38.280 I

00:23:38.900 went

00:23:39.100 on

00:23:39.320 to

00:23:39.500 win

00:23:39.700 the

00:23:39.860 New

00:23:40.000 England

00:23:40.400 100

00:23:40.820 meter

00:23:41.120 title

00:23:41.620 I

00:23:42.480 was

00:23:42.740 named

00:23:43.040 Connecticut

00:23:43.480 State

00:23:43.940 Athlete

00:23:44.320 of the

00:23:44.520 Year

00:23:44.740 there

00:23:45.040 were

00:23:45.160 so

00:23:45.340 many

00:23:45.660 opportunities

00:23:46.660 that

00:23:47.000 came

00:23:47.220 up

00:23:47.340 this

00:23:47.500 one

00:23:47.760 race

00:23:48.240 and

00:23:48.840 I

00:23:49.000 only

00:23:49.260 was

00:23:49.860 able

00:23:50.140 to

00:23:50.420 run

00:23:51.340 that

00:23:51.560 time

00:23:51.860 and

00:23:52.000 win

00:23:52.140 that

00:23:52.380 race

00:23:52.720 because

00:23:53.400 the

00:23:54.420 biological

00:23:54.880 male

00:23:55.340 that

00:23:55.720 had

00:23:56.220 continuously

00:23:57.680 beat

00:23:58.100 me

00:23:58.340 was

00:23:58.700 disqualified

00:23:59.200 and

00:23:59.440 wasn't

00:23:59.740 in

00:23:59.920 that

00:24:00.140 race

00:24:00.460 and

00:24:00.980 so

00:24:01.100 I

00:24:01.220 don't

00:24:01.380 know

00:24:01.580 what

00:24:01.820 would

00:24:02.060 have

00:24:02.160 happened

00:24:02.480 if

00:24:02.860 I

00:24:03.160 hadn't

00:24:03.440 had

00:24:03.760 to

00:24:04.320 race

00:24:04.500 against

00:24:04.820 them

00:24:05.040 all

00:24:05.200 those

00:24:05.400 years

00:24:05.580 what

00:24:05.840 other

00:24:06.120 times

00:24:06.620 or

00:24:07.140 opportunities

00:24:07.920 could

00:24:08.300 I

00:24:08.500 have

00:24:08.780 gotten

00:24:13.940 you

00:24:14.840 know

00:24:14.940 they

00:24:15.060 want

00:24:15.260 to

00:24:15.380 see

00:24:15.680 their

00:24:16.180 athlete

00:24:16.540 win

00:24:16.880 and

00:24:17.120 if

00:24:17.280 they

00:24:17.420 don't

00:24:17.960 see

00:24:18.160 you

00:24:18.340 cross

00:24:18.600 the

00:24:18.780 finish

00:24:19.020 line

00:24:19.220 first

00:24:19.720 you're

00:24:21.520 not

00:24:21.660 the

00:24:21.820 first

00:24:22.020 person

00:24:22.480 that

00:24:22.720 they're

00:24:22.940 going

00:24:23.220 to

00:24:23.480 divert

00:24:23.840 their

00:24:24.060 attention

00:24:24.440 to

00:24:24.820 what

00:24:25.520 do

00:24:25.620 you

00:24:25.720 make

00:24:25.920 of

00:24:26.020 the

00:24:26.120 fact

00:24:26.320 that

00:24:26.560 neither

00:24:28.080 Terry

00:24:28.600 nor

00:24:28.940 Andrea

00:24:29.460 is

00:24:30.800 running

00:24:31.260 track

00:24:31.740 in

00:24:31.900 college

00:24:32.320 is

00:24:32.580 that

00:24:32.740 true

00:24:33.040 I

00:24:33.820 believe

00:24:34.120 it's

00:24:34.400 true

00:24:34.780 so

00:24:36.080 how

00:24:36.540 do

00:24:36.660 you

00:24:36.760 square

00:24:37.020 that

00:24:37.420 right

00:24:37.880 with

00:24:38.140 where

00:24:39.440 you

00:24:39.760 are

00:24:40.040 and

00:24:40.300 how

00:24:40.680 dominant

00:24:41.080 they

00:24:41.280 were

00:24:41.440 in

00:24:41.540 high

00:24:41.700 school

00:24:41.960 and

00:24:42.200 the

00:24:42.520 theory

00:24:42.800 that

00:24:43.020 you

00:24:43.160 know

00:24:43.320 that's

00:24:44.360 winning

00:24:44.800 and

00:24:45.200 having

00:24:45.560 the

00:24:45.720 advantage

00:24:46.080 is

00:24:46.240 what

00:24:46.380 attracts

00:24:46.780 college

00:24:47.320 coaches

00:24:48.260 and

00:24:48.560 recruitment

00:24:48.980 yeah

00:24:50.020 I

00:24:50.300 don't

00:24:50.520 know

00:24:50.800 their

00:24:51.220 personal

00:24:52.420 reasons

00:24:52.900 for

00:24:53.240 not

00:24:53.420 running

00:24:53.700 track

00:24:54.280 I

00:24:54.500 do

00:24:54.660 think

00:24:55.020 that

00:24:55.420 it's

00:24:56.120 hard

00:24:56.400 for

00:24:56.640 coaches

00:24:57.260 you

00:24:58.620 know

00:24:58.940 to

00:24:59.300 I

00:25:00.080 think

00:25:00.260 the

00:25:00.400 recruiting

00:25:00.700 process

00:25:01.180 for

00:25:01.840 transgender

00:25:02.460 athletes

00:25:03.160 is

00:25:03.660 obviously

00:25:04.000 different

00:25:04.460 from

00:25:04.900 that

00:25:05.680 of

00:25:05.800 a

00:25:05.920 biological

00:25:06.320 female 0.86

00:25:06.960 a lot

00:25:08.200 of

00:25:08.320 the

00:25:08.440 cases

00:25:08.720 that I

00:25:09.060 know

00:25:09.220 of

00:25:09.380 in

00:25:09.560 college

00:25:10.080 are

00:25:10.360 from

00:25:10.920 athletes

00:25:12.200 starting

00:25:13.260 on the

00:25:13.580 males 0.81

00:25:13.780 team

00:25:14.140 and

00:25:14.300 then

00:25:14.500 transitioning

00:25:14.980 to

00:25:15.260 a

00:25:15.420 female 0.86

00:25:15.700 so

00:25:15.920 they're

00:25:16.080 already

00:25:16.340 there

00:25:16.820 but

00:25:18.580 definitely

00:25:19.180 you know

00:25:19.580 I'm

00:25:20.020 definitely

00:25:20.420 grateful

00:25:20.740 for like

00:25:21.120 all the

00:25:21.340 opportunities

00:25:21.800 that I've

00:25:22.480 gotten

00:25:23.320 in

00:25:23.600 college

00:25:24.020 yeah

00:25:25.260 all right

00:25:26.160 let me

00:25:26.420 bring in

00:25:26.900 Alana

00:25:27.320 so

00:25:28.020 Alana

00:25:28.300 you're

00:25:28.600 still

00:25:28.940 in

00:25:29.140 high

00:25:29.360 school

00:25:29.640 what

00:25:29.980 year

00:25:30.480 are

00:25:30.620 you

00:25:30.720 in

00:25:30.840 right

00:25:31.020 now

00:25:31.260 I'm

00:25:31.860 a

00:25:31.980 junior

00:25:32.260 you're

00:25:33.380 a

00:25:33.540 junior

00:25:33.800 you're

00:25:34.160 young

00:25:34.500 how

00:25:34.700 old

00:25:34.880 are

00:25:34.980 you

00:25:35.200 I'm

00:25:36.060 17

00:25:36.440 okay

00:25:37.220 so

00:25:37.620 you

00:25:38.300 same

00:25:39.480 sort

00:25:39.780 of

00:25:40.360 right

00:25:40.420 you

00:25:40.620 were

00:25:40.820 you

00:25:41.220 were

00:25:41.380 running

00:25:41.680 and

00:25:41.920 you

00:25:42.040 were

00:25:42.200 winning

00:25:42.680 I

00:25:42.960 mean

00:25:43.060 I

00:25:43.200 what

00:25:43.380 I

00:25:43.500 read

00:25:43.680 is

00:25:43.800 that

00:25:43.960 you

00:25:44.100 won

00:25:44.320 the

00:25:44.440 400

00:25:44.740 meter

00:25:45.120 at

00:25:45.900 the

00:25:46.000 2019

00:25:47.500 Outdoor

00:25:48.140 Northeast

00:25:48.520 Regional

00:25:48.980 as a

00:25:49.800 freshman

00:25:50.180 and

00:25:52.120 you

00:25:52.920 were

00:25:53.040 doing

00:25:53.280 really

00:25:53.560 well

00:25:53.780 I mean

00:25:53.960 that

00:25:54.100 your

00:25:54.280 wins

00:25:55.400 go

00:25:55.660 on

00:25:55.860 and

00:25:55.980 on

00:25:56.220 but

00:25:56.480 what

00:25:57.200 was

00:25:57.900 the

00:25:58.060 first

00:25:58.340 year

00:25:58.700 you

00:25:59.000 had

00:25:59.240 to

00:25:59.380 compete

00:25:59.780 against

00:26:00.520 somebody

00:26:01.580 who

00:26:01.740 was

00:26:01.860 a

00:26:01.980 trans

00:26:02.300 girl 0.91

00:26:02.560 so

00:26:03.320 I

00:26:03.520 competed

00:26:04.000 against

00:26:04.380 them

00:26:04.660 my

00:26:04.900 freshman

00:26:05.260 year

00:26:05.600 my

00:26:06.180 first

00:26:06.400 year

00:26:10.360 bigger

00:26:10.660 meets

00:26:11.020 like

00:26:11.380 states

00:26:11.860 and

00:26:12.300 the

00:26:12.600 New

00:26:12.800 England

00:26:13.000 regionals

00:26:13.600 and

00:26:13.880 those

00:26:14.120 were

00:26:14.260 obviously

00:26:14.640 the

00:26:14.860 meets

00:26:15.200 that

00:26:15.460 really

00:26:15.780 mattered

00:26:16.220 and

00:26:16.440 really

00:26:16.640 meant

00:26:16.900 something

00:26:17.340 so

00:26:18.240 it

00:26:18.380 was

00:26:18.480 really

00:26:18.660 frustrating

00:26:19.240 to know

00:26:19.740 that

00:26:19.920 like

00:26:20.100 me

00:26:20.340 and

00:26:20.720 all

00:26:21.000 the

00:26:21.180 other

00:26:21.440 biological

00:26:21.980 female 0.86

00:26:22.320 athletes

00:26:22.740 weren't

00:26:23.140 getting

00:26:23.340 the

00:26:23.520 spots

00:26:23.840 that

00:26:24.060 we

00:26:24.220 deserved

00:26:24.620 especially

00:26:25.100 because

00:26:25.500 it

00:26:25.680 was

00:26:25.780 at

00:26:25.920 these

00:26:26.140 meets

00:26:26.420 that

00:26:26.640 really

00:26:26.940 mattered

00:26:27.360 and

00:26:28.780 did

00:26:29.560 you

00:26:29.720 personally

00:26:30.220 lose

00:26:30.700 to

00:26:31.040 Andrea

00:26:31.740 and

00:26:32.120 Terry

00:26:32.360 yes

00:26:33.100 I

00:26:33.280 ran

00:26:33.460 against

00:26:33.800 both

00:26:34.200 both

00:26:34.620 of

00:26:34.760 the

00:26:34.880 athletes

00:26:40.360 some

00:26:40.720 people

00:26:41.540 have

00:26:42.560 said

00:26:42.920 in

00:26:43.140 response

00:26:43.440 to

00:26:43.600 all

00:26:43.780 of

00:26:43.880 these

00:26:44.000 complaints

00:26:44.460 everyone

00:26:46.380 has

00:26:46.720 advantages

00:26:47.200 you

00:26:47.920 know

00:26:48.100 like

00:26:48.540 I

00:26:48.940 think

00:26:49.080 the

00:26:49.180 other

00:26:49.320 side

00:26:49.540 said

00:26:49.880 LeBron

00:26:50.600 James

00:26:50.980 or

00:26:51.120 somebody

00:26:51.340 said

00:26:51.540 LeBron

00:26:51.860 James

00:26:52.160 kids

00:26:52.480 are

00:26:52.600 going

00:26:52.680 to

00:26:52.720 have

00:26:52.840 a

00:26:52.960 big

00:26:53.080 advantage

00:26:53.400 when

00:26:53.560 it

00:26:53.640 comes

00:26:53.820 to

00:26:53.980 size

00:26:54.480 and

00:26:54.720 access

00:26:55.340 to

00:26:55.700 elite

00:26:55.980 training

00:26:56.440 and

00:26:56.740 trainers

00:26:57.220 and

00:26:57.520 you

00:26:57.700 know

00:26:58.120 if

00:26:58.660 you

00:26:58.700 have

00:26:58.840 really

00:26:59.040 tall

00:26:59.280 parents

00:26:59.800 you

00:27:00.460 might

00:27:00.640 have

00:27:00.800 longer

00:27:01.100 legs

00:27:01.580 which

00:27:01.800 you

00:27:02.020 know

00:27:02.200 that's

00:27:02.900 what

00:27:03.260 they

00:27:03.400 say

00:27:03.580 like

00:27:03.840 everyone

00:27:04.360 has

00:27:04.660 advantages

00:27:05.140 so

00:27:05.540 you

00:27:05.700 can't

00:27:06.460 you

00:27:06.620 can't

00:27:07.060 sort

00:27:07.260 of

00:27:07.420 get

00:27:07.860 a

00:27:08.060 totally

00:27:08.680 equal

00:27:09.300 level

00:27:09.760 playing

00:27:10.180 field

00:27:10.480 I

00:27:11.220 think

00:27:11.520 that

00:27:11.880 the

00:27:12.340 advantages

00:27:13.020 that

00:27:13.320 biological

00:27:13.800 males 0.81

00:27:14.340 have

00:27:14.900 over

00:27:15.260 biological

00:27:15.620 females 0.96

00:27:16.060 is

00:27:16.580 just

00:27:16.880 it's

00:27:17.400 it's

00:27:18.240 a lot

00:27:18.580 like

00:27:18.800 for

00:27:18.980 example

00:27:19.160 I

00:27:19.400 have

00:27:19.700 a

00:27:19.920 twin

00:27:20.080 brother

00:27:20.400 and

00:27:20.740 he

00:27:21.020 plays

00:27:21.300 sports

00:27:21.660 but

00:27:21.860 he

00:27:21.980 doesn't

00:27:22.220 run

00:27:22.420 track

00:27:22.760 but

00:27:23.480 he

00:27:23.600 can

00:27:23.760 still

00:27:23.980 beat

00:27:24.180 me

00:27:24.300 in

00:27:24.400 a

00:27:24.500 race

00:27:24.800 and

00:27:24.920 I

00:27:25.020 think

00:27:25.220 that

00:27:25.460 just

00:27:25.700 shows

00:27:26.100 how

00:27:26.380 big

00:27:26.660 the

00:27:26.800 differences

00:27:27.120 are

00:27:27.500 because

00:27:33.840 my

00:27:34.320 brother

00:27:34.560 can

00:27:34.780 still

00:27:34.980 beat

00:27:35.180 me

00:27:35.420 even

00:27:35.740 though

00:27:35.900 he

00:27:36.040 doesn't

00:27:36.260 run

00:27:36.420 track

00:27:36.780 now

00:27:39.080 did

00:27:39.260 your

00:27:39.380 mom

00:27:39.580 read

00:27:39.760 an

00:27:39.880 op-ed

00:27:40.120 in

00:27:40.240 the

00:27:40.620 New

00:27:40.740 York

00:27:40.840 Post

00:27:41.180 I

00:27:41.900 think

00:27:42.240 so

00:27:42.580 yeah

00:27:43.320 okay

00:27:43.600 just

00:27:43.840 making

00:27:44.160 sure

00:27:44.540 because

00:27:45.020 I

00:27:45.480 read

00:27:45.720 it

00:27:45.840 and

00:27:45.940 it

00:27:46.000 was

00:27:46.100 amazing

00:27:46.480 and

00:27:46.740 it

00:27:46.820 was

00:27:47.020 pretty

00:27:47.500 spectacular

00:27:48.040 and

00:27:48.600 one

00:27:48.820 of

00:27:48.920 the

00:27:49.020 things

00:27:49.180 that

00:27:49.340 jumped

00:27:49.500 out

00:27:49.700 at

00:27:49.820 me

00:27:50.420 in

00:27:50.720 that

00:27:50.980 op-ed

00:27:51.360 it

00:27:51.480 was

00:27:51.600 funny

00:27:52.000 because

00:27:52.160 I

00:27:52.280 read

00:27:52.520 part

00:27:52.760 of

00:27:52.860 it

00:27:52.940 on

00:27:53.040 the

00:27:53.160 air

00:27:53.440 and

00:27:53.680 I

00:27:53.780 was

00:27:53.920 like

00:27:54.120 I

00:27:54.560 want

00:27:55.200 to

00:27:55.320 talk

00:27:55.540 to

00:27:55.660 them

00:27:55.920 like

00:27:56.200 I

00:27:56.340 want

00:27:56.680 to

00:27:56.780 book

00:27:56.960 them

00:27:57.280 because

00:27:58.800 she

00:27:59.120 made

00:27:59.440 one

00:27:59.700 of

00:27:59.820 the

00:27:59.940 points

00:28:00.180 I

00:28:00.280 mean

00:28:00.360 she

00:28:00.440 made

00:28:00.600 a lot

00:28:00.800 of

00:28:00.880 great

00:28:01.080 points

00:28:01.380 but

00:28:01.540 she

00:28:01.680 was

00:28:01.840 like

00:28:02.040 before

00:28:02.540 you

00:28:03.280 know

00:28:03.400 you

00:28:03.640 you

00:28:03.940 rip 0.82

00:28:04.160 on

00:28:04.360 me

00:28:04.640 as

00:28:04.840 sort

00:28:05.040 of

00:28:05.300 white

00:28:05.960 privilege

00:28:06.580 doesn't

00:28:07.280 understand

00:28:07.860 she

00:28:08.460 said

00:28:09.000 you

00:28:09.620 know

00:28:09.760 my

00:28:10.200 child

00:28:10.760 is

00:28:11.180 a

00:28:11.380 person

00:28:11.940 of

00:28:12.160 color

00:28:12.520 and

00:28:13.120 has

00:28:13.460 overcome

00:28:14.040 obstacles

00:28:14.960 and

00:28:15.900 made

00:28:16.300 it

00:28:16.500 and

00:28:16.780 has

00:28:17.020 been

00:28:17.320 making

00:28:17.780 it

00:28:18.040 as

00:28:18.260 a

00:28:18.400 track

00:28:18.780 and

00:28:20.120 field

00:28:20.520 star

00:28:21.200 and

00:28:22.160 this

00:28:22.420 isn't

00:28:22.780 fair

00:28:23.100 I

00:28:23.860 mean

00:28:23.980 is

00:28:24.120 that

00:28:24.460 because

00:28:25.080 you

00:28:25.180 know

00:28:25.240 we

00:28:25.320 hear

00:28:25.460 a lot

00:28:25.740 about

00:28:26.060 the

00:28:26.740 importance

00:28:27.120 of

00:28:27.320 encouraging

00:28:27.820 diversity

00:28:28.440 and

00:28:28.640 so

00:28:28.880 on

00:28:29.240 I

00:28:30.120 don't

00:28:30.260 know

00:28:30.440 it's

00:28:30.640 tough

00:28:30.820 to

00:28:30.980 unleash

00:28:31.340 white

00:28:31.600 girl 0.91

00:28:31.740 privilege

00:28:32.080 on

00:28:32.320 you

00:28:32.480 but

00:28:32.720 how

00:28:33.380 has

00:28:33.560 that

00:28:33.760 played

00:28:34.060 into

00:28:34.320 your

00:28:34.500 story

00:28:34.820 if

00:28:35.020 at

00:28:35.120 all

00:28:35.320 yeah

00:28:36.740 I

00:28:36.900 think

00:28:37.220 it's

00:28:37.480 really

00:28:37.820 it's

00:28:38.620 honestly

00:28:38.880 kind

00:28:39.160 of

00:28:39.580 funny

00:28:40.880 when

00:28:41.080 people

00:28:41.300 say

00:28:41.640 that

00:28:42.100 this

00:28:42.740 is

00:28:42.920 about

00:28:43.120 race

00:28:43.500 because

00:28:44.020 like

00:28:44.480 you

00:28:44.640 said

00:28:48.400 about

00:28:48.780 the

00:28:49.400 transgender

00:28:49.880 athletes

00:28:50.580 it's

00:28:50.960 about

00:28:51.280 the

00:28:51.560 CIAC

00:28:52.060 policy

00:28:52.660 in

00:28:52.900 Connecticut

00:28:53.240 and

00:28:53.580 it's

00:28:53.740 just

00:28:53.920 about

00:28:54.180 making

00:28:54.440 sure

00:28:54.820 that

00:28:55.460 we

00:28:55.600 can

00:28:55.760 protect

00:28:56.160 women's

00:28:56.560 sports

00:28:56.880 and

00:28:57.180 keep

00:28:57.440 women's

00:28:57.820 sports

00:28:58.160 women's

00:28:58.600 sports

00:28:58.980 CIAC

00:29:00.740 is the

00:29:01.560 Connecticut

00:29:01.940 body

00:29:02.320 that

00:29:02.560 governs

00:29:03.040 Connecticut

00:29:03.320 sports

00:29:03.760 yes

00:29:04.800 okay

00:29:05.980 and

00:29:07.320 so

00:29:08.320 tell

00:29:08.680 you

00:29:08.920 tell me

00:29:09.400 like

00:29:09.620 when

00:29:09.780 you

00:29:10.260 when

00:29:10.840 you

00:29:11.320 saw

00:29:12.220 you know

00:29:12.820 these

00:29:13.020 two

00:29:13.220 athletes

00:29:13.520 and

00:29:13.640 it

00:29:13.700 was

00:29:13.780 just

00:29:13.960 these

00:29:14.280 two

00:29:14.500 Andrea

00:29:14.840 and

00:29:15.040 Terry

00:29:15.300 yeah

00:29:16.140 when

00:29:16.600 you saw

00:29:16.960 them at

00:29:17.320 meets

00:29:17.620 and up

00:29:18.160 against

00:29:18.440 you

00:29:18.640 in

00:29:18.820 races

00:29:19.380 how

00:29:19.980 would

00:29:20.140 you

00:29:20.240 feel

00:29:20.480 I

00:29:20.880 felt

00:29:21.160 like

00:29:21.380 I

00:29:21.480 was

00:29:21.600 already

00:29:21.900 defeated

00:29:22.480 before

00:29:22.820 I even

00:29:23.080 got to

00:29:23.400 the

00:29:23.540 line

00:29:23.860 usually

00:29:24.800 you

00:29:25.620 feel

00:29:25.860 like

00:29:26.020 you

00:29:26.140 have

00:29:26.300 the

00:29:26.440 chance

00:29:26.840 to

00:29:27.180 win

00:29:27.440 even

00:29:27.640 if

00:29:27.800 you

00:29:27.920 might

00:29:28.060 not

00:29:28.220 be

00:29:28.500 seated

00:29:29.140 first

00:29:29.480 or

00:29:29.600 have

00:29:29.760 the

00:29:29.900 fastest

00:29:30.200 time

00:29:30.580 you

00:29:30.760 know

00:29:30.880 that

00:29:31.000 there's

00:29:31.180 a

00:29:31.300 chance

00:29:31.600 that

00:29:31.700 you

00:29:31.760 can

00:29:31.880 still

00:29:32.120 win

00:29:32.420 but

00:29:33.120 when

00:29:33.280 running

00:29:33.520 against

00:29:33.820 the

00:29:33.960 biological

00:29:34.340 males 0.81

00:29:34.920 all

00:29:35.840 biological

00:29:36.520 females 0.96

00:29:36.860 just knew

00:29:37.260 that we

00:29:37.560 didn't

00:29:37.780 have a

00:29:38.040 chance

00:29:38.280 to win

00:29:38.780 and it's

00:29:39.220 not really

00:29:39.580 about

00:29:39.780 winning

00:29:40.120 but it's

00:29:40.560 about

00:29:40.760 knowing

00:29:41.160 that you

00:29:41.840 got the

00:29:42.120 spot

00:29:42.420 that you

00:29:42.760 deserve

00:29:43.040 like

00:29:43.360 if you

00:29:43.700 get

00:29:44.020 fifth

00:29:44.280 place

00:29:44.600 and that's

00:29:44.920 the

00:29:45.060 spot

00:29:45.300 that you

00:29:45.540 deserve

00:29:45.860 because

00:29:46.220 it's a

00:29:46.520 level

00:29:46.640 playing field

00:29:47.240 then that's

00:29:47.920 the spot

00:29:48.180 that you

00:29:48.420 deserve

00:29:48.780 but knowing

00:29:49.880 that you

00:29:50.860 know I

00:29:51.180 trained for

00:29:51.880 20 hours

00:29:52.640 a week

00:29:53.000 and knowing

00:29:53.360 that I'm

00:29:53.640 not I

00:29:54.060 didn't get

00:29:54.340 the spot

00:29:54.740 that I

00:29:55.020 deserved

00:29:55.380 it was

00:29:55.800 really

00:29:56.040 frustrating

00:29:56.620 and upsetting

00:29:57.240 to me

00:29:57.740 what do you

00:29:58.400 make of

00:29:58.780 their lawyers

00:29:59.460 have said

00:29:59.900 in the

00:30:00.160 lawsuit

00:30:00.440 look

00:30:00.820 neither

00:30:01.140 Terry

00:30:01.540 nor

00:30:01.820 Andrea

00:30:02.160 is

00:30:02.440 undefeated

00:30:02.980 and

00:30:03.680 neither

00:30:04.140 have

00:30:05.080 dominant

00:30:05.860 race

00:30:06.800 times

00:30:07.220 among

00:30:07.980 high school

00:30:08.480 girls 0.98

00:30:08.800 nationally

00:30:09.380 you know

00:30:10.100 that

00:30:10.300 they're

00:30:10.860 beatable

00:30:11.260 by the

00:30:12.120 right

00:30:12.460 girl 0.91

00:30:12.920 cis

00:30:13.980 girl 0.91

00:30:14.260 you know

00:30:14.780 born a

00:30:15.520 girl 0.91

00:30:15.680 and identifies

00:30:16.180 as girl

00:30:16.520 her whole

00:30:16.860 life

00:30:17.140 by the

00:30:18.280 right

00:30:18.500 girl 0.91

00:30:19.020 they're

00:30:19.460 beatable

00:30:19.880 so what

00:30:20.740 do you

00:30:20.860 make of

00:30:21.080 that

00:30:21.320 I

00:30:21.720 just

00:30:22.000 think

00:30:22.340 that

00:30:22.600 you know

00:30:22.840 if you

00:30:23.080 see

00:30:23.360 these

00:30:23.620 races

00:30:23.960 you see

00:30:24.360 videos

00:30:24.800 of

00:30:25.220 the

00:30:25.840 biological

00:30:26.380 males 0.81

00:30:26.800 running

00:30:27.100 against

00:30:27.600 us

00:30:28.060 you can

00:30:28.440 just see

00:30:28.800 that

00:30:28.980 they're

00:30:29.220 so far

00:30:29.980 ahead

00:30:30.200 of us

00:30:30.580 and that

00:30:31.100 the majority

00:30:32.300 of us

00:30:32.660 just can't

00:30:33.140 reach their

00:30:33.480 times

00:30:33.900 and one

00:30:34.840 time that

00:30:35.260 Chelsea

00:30:35.540 did beat

00:30:36.300 one of

00:30:36.660 the

00:30:36.780 transgender

00:30:37.080 athletes

00:30:37.640 it's

00:30:38.120 because

00:30:38.620 the athlete

00:30:39.700 with the

00:30:40.060 top time

00:30:40.740 got

00:30:41.240 disqualified

00:30:42.180 because of

00:30:42.940 a false

00:30:43.280 start

00:30:43.660 so it

00:30:44.060 wasn't

00:30:44.460 it was only

00:30:45.040 fair

00:30:45.520 because the

00:30:46.900 athlete

00:30:47.180 wasn't allowed

00:30:47.680 to run

00:30:47.980 in the

00:30:48.180 race

00:30:48.520 and she

00:30:49.120 was only

00:30:49.400 able to

00:30:49.740 win

00:30:50.040 and she

00:30:50.840 lost so

00:30:51.320 many

00:30:51.620 titles

00:30:52.500 and so

00:30:52.960 many chances

00:30:53.480 to get

00:30:54.360 the spot

00:30:54.740 that she

00:30:55.020 deserved

00:30:55.360 I know

00:30:57.420 Chelsea's mom

00:30:58.080 basically said

00:30:59.220 even when she

00:31:00.340 wins she

00:31:01.200 loses now

00:31:01.980 because if

00:31:03.560 she loses

00:31:04.280 to a

00:31:05.400 trans girl

00:31:06.120 the other

00:31:07.520 side uses

00:31:08.180 it to say

00:31:08.700 see your

00:31:09.300 argument has

00:31:09.880 no merit

00:31:10.660 whatsoever

00:31:11.140 and I've

00:31:12.320 been reading

00:31:12.900 up about

00:31:13.440 these cases

00:31:14.060 now for

00:31:14.620 a week

00:31:15.320 plus

00:31:15.740 this is

00:31:16.380 the first

00:31:16.640 time

00:31:16.780 learning

00:31:17.040 that there

00:31:17.320 was a

00:31:17.520 false

00:31:17.720 start

00:31:18.080 in the

00:31:18.440 race

00:31:18.660 that

00:31:18.840 Chelsea

00:31:19.080 like the

00:31:19.500 media

00:31:19.680 doesn't

00:31:19.960 report

00:31:20.240 that

00:31:20.540 right

00:31:21.060 like it's

00:31:21.560 just

00:31:21.820 look it's

00:31:22.600 possible

00:31:23.020 but I mean

00:31:23.680 I will say

00:31:24.280 if they were

00:31:24.660 ranked fifth

00:31:25.580 nationally

00:31:26.100 then there are

00:31:26.620 there are at least

00:31:27.060 four girls

00:31:27.660 who are doing

00:31:28.160 you know

00:31:29.080 better than

00:31:29.620 they are

00:31:30.220 um

00:31:31.360 your point

00:31:32.440 is simply

00:31:32.880 it's not

00:31:33.360 that it

00:31:33.600 could never

00:31:33.960 be done

00:31:34.440 it's that

00:31:35.020 they have

00:31:35.480 such an

00:31:35.920 advantage

00:31:36.480 that you

00:31:37.340 can't say

00:31:37.900 just because

00:31:38.320 they lose

00:31:38.700 occasionally

00:31:39.180 the system

00:31:40.100 is fair

00:31:40.680 yeah

00:31:41.360 so now

00:31:42.240 have they

00:31:42.560 graduated

00:31:43.140 have they

00:31:43.500 have the

00:31:44.280 the two

00:31:45.220 trans girls

00:31:45.720 graduated out

00:31:46.420 of high school

00:31:46.840 yes they have

00:31:47.980 and now you're

00:31:48.540 back on a

00:31:49.260 level playing

00:31:49.740 field with

00:31:50.220 all cis girls

00:31:51.200 as of right

00:31:52.000 now I am

00:31:52.660 yeah so I

00:31:53.340 feel a lot

00:31:53.960 more confident

00:31:54.720 in my races

00:31:55.360 and I know

00:31:56.040 that I'm

00:31:56.820 able to

00:31:57.460 compete on

00:31:57.880 a level

00:31:58.060 playing field

00:31:58.660 but I do

00:31:59.360 know that if

00:31:59.800 a change

00:32:00.260 isn't made

00:32:00.920 then more

00:32:02.060 biological males

00:32:02.900 can start to

00:32:03.780 compete in

00:32:04.620 the female 1.00

00:32:05.140 category and

00:32:06.400 future girls

00:32:07.660 might have to

00:32:08.260 experience what

00:32:08.920 me and

00:32:09.260 Chelsea have

00:32:09.760 experienced

00:32:10.280 how's that

00:32:11.080 going for you

00:32:11.620 are you doing

00:32:12.260 you doing

00:32:13.120 well

00:32:13.500 yeah I'm

00:32:14.040 doing really

00:32:14.420 well it's

00:32:14.960 been hard

00:32:15.400 because of

00:32:15.840 COVID so

00:32:16.360 our season

00:32:16.840 is really

00:32:17.240 short and

00:32:18.160 like you know

00:32:18.900 there's a lot

00:32:19.220 of times we

00:32:19.620 have to

00:32:19.800 quarantine so

00:32:20.520 we're not

00:32:20.780 able to

00:32:21.120 practice but

00:32:22.020 I'm glad that

00:32:22.920 we're finally

00:32:23.520 starting to

00:32:24.100 get a season

00:32:24.600 you know the

00:32:25.480 White House

00:32:25.980 was asked

00:32:26.360 about this

00:32:26.840 at a press

00:32:27.280 briefing

00:32:27.660 Jen Psaki

00:32:28.260 the White

00:32:28.920 House spokesperson

00:32:29.720 you know

00:32:31.340 what are we

00:32:32.320 going to do

00:32:32.620 about this

00:32:33.080 this is a

00:32:33.600 real problem

00:32:34.200 right because

00:32:34.740 Joe Biden

00:32:35.240 as soon as

00:32:35.820 he got into

00:32:36.100 office he

00:32:37.080 came out

00:32:37.540 with an

00:32:37.860 edict saying

00:32:38.500 you can't

00:32:39.380 discriminate

00:32:39.680 against anybody

00:32:40.580 based on

00:32:41.160 gender

00:32:42.460 identity

00:32:43.120 and the

00:32:45.060 answer that

00:32:45.680 Jen Psaki

00:32:46.240 gave was

00:32:47.280 trans rights

00:32:48.680 or human

00:32:49.040 rights period

00:32:50.500 I mean that

00:32:51.100 was that was

00:32:51.860 just the answer

00:32:52.340 trans rights

00:32:52.940 or human

00:32:53.280 rights how

00:32:54.420 do you

00:32:54.640 respond to

00:32:55.080 that we

00:32:56.280 believe that

00:32:57.140 there's a

00:32:57.500 spot for

00:32:58.060 everyone in

00:32:58.640 sports but

00:32:59.480 it's just

00:33:00.160 about finding

00:33:01.240 out where

00:33:01.680 it's most

00:33:02.160 fair and

00:33:03.080 in the

00:33:03.480 track world

00:33:04.200 would you

00:33:04.560 say do

00:33:04.920 they have

00:33:05.740 supporters

00:33:06.240 or is

00:33:06.800 it I

00:33:07.100 mean what's

00:33:08.100 the dynamic

00:33:08.580 like yeah

00:33:09.540 I think that

00:33:10.080 they do have

00:33:10.680 supporters but

00:33:11.460 then there's

00:33:11.780 also a lot

00:33:12.340 of people who

00:33:12.960 feel like they

00:33:14.020 have to stay

00:33:14.520 quiet about it

00:33:15.360 so they don't

00:33:16.060 get in trouble

00:33:16.740 or lose their

00:33:17.740 job or something

00:33:18.660 like that so I

00:33:19.500 think a lot of

00:33:19.980 people are just

00:33:20.620 afraid to stand

00:33:21.560 up and say

00:33:22.340 that it's an

00:33:23.720 unfair situation

00:33:24.940 were you afraid

00:33:26.140 I was nervous

00:33:27.440 at first because

00:33:28.340 I'm very shy

00:33:29.140 but I realized

00:33:31.140 that I believe

00:33:32.680 that this is

00:33:33.300 right and I

00:33:33.860 love sports and

00:33:35.000 I know that I

00:33:36.200 want women's 0.96

00:33:36.800 sports to stay

00:33:37.440 women's sports

00:33:38.040 because I want

00:33:38.700 to go far

00:33:39.140 with track and

00:33:39.960 it's hard to

00:33:40.460 do that if

00:33:41.940 I'm competing

00:33:42.640 on an unlevel

00:33:43.160 playing field

00:33:43.820 have you had a

00:33:45.100 lot of fallout

00:33:45.900 because I know

00:33:46.540 you wrote a

00:33:47.160 piece and you

00:33:48.020 said I'm

00:33:48.580 quoting now

00:33:49.220 since the

00:33:50.040 lawsuit has

00:33:50.460 been filed

00:33:51.020 Selena who's 0.73

00:33:52.080 another girl

00:33:52.600 who's part of

00:33:53.100 it Chelsea and

00:33:54.020 myself and

00:33:54.720 our parents have

00:33:55.420 received heard or

00:33:56.300 read negative

00:33:56.820 comments such as

00:33:57.700 sore losers

00:33:58.280 transphobes

00:33:59.440 white girl 1.00

00:34:00.080 privilege suck

00:34:01.100 it up train

00:34:01.660 harder and

00:34:02.180 more we are

00:34:03.520 not any of

00:34:04.040 that the

00:34:04.740 complaint in

00:34:05.260 the lawsuit are

00:34:05.940 not about any

00:34:06.600 of that we are

00:34:07.720 focused competitors

00:34:08.500 who deserve a

00:34:09.140 fair shot at

00:34:09.720 victory as do

00:34:10.900 all female

00:34:11.460 competitors across

00:34:12.280 the country now

00:34:13.020 and in the

00:34:13.320 future so

00:34:14.720 have you received

00:34:16.920 a fair amount of

00:34:17.620 blowback from

00:34:19.020 people who want

00:34:19.680 to shame you out

00:34:20.680 of this lawsuit in

00:34:21.520 your position

00:34:22.100 yeah I have

00:34:24.100 received some

00:34:24.820 backlash but it's

00:34:25.800 mostly on social

00:34:26.820 media from people I

00:34:27.800 don't know from

00:34:28.520 people behind the

00:34:29.340 screen so all of

00:34:30.760 my like friends and

00:34:31.760 my teammates and

00:34:32.460 my family and

00:34:33.260 people in my

00:34:33.780 community support

00:34:34.580 what I'm doing

00:34:35.280 and you know I've

00:34:36.340 even like run into

00:34:37.240 people at the

00:34:38.680 mall and places

00:34:39.360 like that in my

00:34:40.280 in Danbury and

00:34:41.500 they've said that

00:34:42.020 they really support

00:34:43.360 what I'm doing and

00:34:44.080 they're glad that

00:34:44.660 I'm standing up for

00:34:45.420 female sports so I 1.00

00:34:46.380 think that's what

00:34:47.240 makes me realize I

00:34:48.760 need to keep

00:34:49.200 fighting and keep

00:34:50.080 sharing my story

00:34:50.900 good for you it's

00:34:52.580 very brave it's not

00:34:54.220 easy to do when

00:34:55.240 all the media

00:34:56.920 dominates with any

00:34:59.100 position other than

00:35:00.100 theirs right that we

00:35:01.480 need to support trans

00:35:02.400 people which we do

00:35:03.680 but the end of that

00:35:05.100 message is in any way

00:35:06.380 they deem appropriate

00:35:07.280 right even if it

00:35:08.280 hurts girls like 1.00

00:35:09.780 yourself it's hard to

00:35:11.580 stand up against that

00:35:12.480 and say I disagree

00:35:13.660 like there are ways

00:35:14.820 in which we need to

00:35:15.660 there are places in

00:35:16.700 which we need to

00:35:17.140 draw lines and and

00:35:18.540 protect other people

00:35:20.280 who also matter I 0.97

00:35:21.920 don't it must be

00:35:22.940 very frustrating to

00:35:23.980 you to

00:35:25.240 I to me it's only

00:35:27.080 there's there's only

00:35:27.960 one dominant voice

00:35:29.120 and it's trans rights

00:35:31.440 or human rights and

00:35:32.440 be quiet because you're

00:35:33.780 going to get called

00:35:34.300 nasty names if you

00:35:35.260 don't yeah it has

00:35:36.420 been very frustrating

00:35:37.380 but I know that what

00:35:38.460 me and Suna and

00:35:39.500 Chelsea are doing is

00:35:40.480 the right thing and

00:35:41.380 we just need to

00:35:41.920 continue to fight for

00:35:43.380 all female athletes 0.81

00:35:44.580 up next we're going

00:35:46.320 to talk to the girl's 0.98

00:35:47.240 attorney Kristen

00:35:48.480 Wagner and talk to

00:35:50.280 her about what the

00:35:51.040 law is what does the

00:35:52.500 law say what has the

00:35:53.460 Supreme Court said and

00:35:55.440 where is this likely to

00:35:56.420 go now that they've

00:35:57.360 lost at the trial court

00:35:59.380 level and then later

00:36:00.780 we're going to get to

00:36:01.380 our expert panel on the

00:36:03.620 physical differences

00:36:04.480 before transition after

00:36:06.640 transition and so on

00:36:08.240 but first this

00:36:09.240 Kristen that's where you

00:36:14.120 come in you're an 0.97

00:36:15.400 attorney with Alliance

00:36:16.740 Defending Freedom which

00:36:18.080 is great and been

00:36:19.380 filing for a long time

00:36:20.660 lawsuits that you know

00:36:22.200 the ACLU would never

00:36:23.160 take they're on the

00:36:23.780 other side they claim

00:36:24.780 they support human

00:36:25.660 rights once once a long

00:36:27.460 time ago they did now

00:36:29.080 it's just a political

00:36:29.780 organization but you

00:36:31.320 ADF steps in files this

00:36:33.600 lawsuit and what what

00:36:34.660 was the basis of the

00:36:35.600 lawsuit like what's the

00:36:36.400 claim the basis of the

00:36:37.600 claim is that it

00:36:38.240 violates federal law

00:36:39.320 there's a federal

00:36:40.340 statute that we refer

00:36:42.160 to as title nine and

00:36:43.400 it was passed in 1972

00:36:45.140 and title nine was

00:36:46.360 designed to ensure that

00:36:48.120 our daughters have

00:36:49.340 equal athletic

00:36:50.240 opportunities and

00:36:51.200 experiences that should

00:36:52.580 be every bit as real

00:36:54.120 and authentic and

00:36:55.160 competitive as the

00:36:56.680 opportunities that their

00:36:57.680 brothers are experiencing

00:36:58.700 and I think what you've

00:37:00.200 heard here is instead

00:37:01.140 they're getting lessons

00:37:02.220 in Connecticut on what

00:37:03.960 it means to lose and in

00:37:05.220 an unfair manner

00:37:06.220 now how do we how do we

00:37:07.680 factor in the fact that

00:37:08.820 now the Supreme Court has

00:37:10.000 said you can't

00:37:10.520 discriminate in

00:37:11.060 employment when it

00:37:12.560 comes to gender

00:37:13.660 identity then we have a

00:37:14.840 Joe Biden executive order

00:37:16.240 saying in schools

00:37:17.920 title nine which is

00:37:18.920 different from the

00:37:19.420 hiring statute in

00:37:20.720 title nine you can't

00:37:21.620 discriminate in

00:37:22.520 athletics against

00:37:24.340 somebody because of

00:37:26.220 their gender identity

00:37:27.160 how does that how can

00:37:29.520 how can schools comply

00:37:31.120 with that and and say

00:37:34.640 to trans girls that

00:37:35.780 they can't run on the

00:37:37.980 you know in the girls 0.98

00:37:38.860 league sports has always

00:37:40.640 been separated by

00:37:42.040 biological sex because 0.83

00:37:43.600 it's about the

00:37:44.860 difference in our bodies

00:37:45.780 and the physical

00:37:46.420 advantages that men

00:37:47.380 have over women and

00:37:48.340 the Supreme Court has

00:37:49.300 actually recognized that

00:37:50.560 in a decision that was

00:37:52.240 actually authored by

00:37:53.200 Justice Ginsburg and

00:37:54.980 you refer to the

00:37:55.860 Bostock decision which

00:37:57.360 involved gender identity

00:37:59.460 and sexual orientation in

00:38:01.380 employment but even in

00:38:03.240 that decision the

00:38:04.280 majority of the court

00:38:05.360 recognized that it

00:38:06.880 wasn't conflating sex

00:38:08.120 discrimination with

00:38:09.460 sexual orientation and

00:38:10.820 gender identity and I

00:38:12.520 think something else I

00:38:13.340 would put out about the

00:38:14.120 extreme nature of the

00:38:15.820 Biden administration's

00:38:17.080 order in really

00:38:18.320 betraying biological

00:38:19.480 women is that even the 1.00

00:38:21.160 Obama administration

00:38:22.060 recognized that title

00:38:23.580 nine is different that

00:38:25.140 again we separate sports

00:38:26.780 because of physical

00:38:27.660 differences and when

00:38:28.900 there are legitimate

00:38:29.620 differences between men

00:38:31.140 and women the law 1.00

00:38:32.380 should recognize those

00:38:33.460 and when we don't it's

00:38:35.060 actually women and girls 1.00

00:38:36.260 who are going to bear the

00:38:37.060 front of that harm like

00:38:38.300 Alana and Chelsea and so

00:38:40.380 just to be clear for the

00:38:41.120 audience at home we've

00:38:41.640 got title seven that

00:38:42.620 that governs hiring and

00:38:43.860 you can't not hire

00:38:44.880 somebody because they're

00:38:45.680 transgender the Supreme 0.56

00:38:46.620 Court just ruled in

00:38:48.220 Bostock but we haven't

00:38:49.780 had a Supreme Court

00:38:50.400 ruling on title nine

00:38:52.000 which governs the

00:38:53.160 schools not

00:38:55.000 discriminating you know

00:38:56.580 quote-unquote

00:38:57.020 discriminating against

00:38:58.120 transgender athletes

00:38:59.540 and but we do have an

00:39:01.460 executive order from Joe

00:39:02.360 Biden which is you know

00:39:03.620 less weighty than a

00:39:05.480 Supreme Court decision

00:39:07.320 but it certainly seems like

00:39:08.940 it might be going that

00:39:09.720 way I don't know I mean

00:39:10.560 that that case has yet

00:39:11.520 to be litigated until

00:39:14.520 until they do rule that

00:39:16.340 way you're still alive in

00:39:18.740 terms of your lawsuit

00:39:19.540 but it got bounced first

00:39:21.400 of all do you agree with

00:39:21.980 my my legal assessment

00:39:23.220 there have I gotten that

00:39:24.080 correct yes I agree with

00:39:26.420 that although I would I

00:39:27.340 think that the Bostock

00:39:28.200 decision the Supreme Court

00:39:29.320 employment decision that

00:39:30.380 you referred to even in

00:39:31.860 that decision itself it

00:39:33.240 it references that there

00:39:34.700 are differences when

00:39:35.940 there are differences in

00:39:36.780 the in the sexes that

00:39:38.040 those differences may need

00:39:39.220 to be accounted for

00:39:40.560 okay so you're still

00:39:42.200 alive you got your

00:39:43.000 lawsuit going it you

00:39:44.500 just got a night a bad

00:39:45.640 decision in April on

00:39:47.740 this case but it wasn't

00:39:49.440 as I understand it on the

00:39:50.780 merits the court was

00:39:52.080 basically saying the

00:39:53.240 lawsuits now moot because

00:39:54.860 the girls have graduated

00:39:57.620 from high school that the

00:39:58.880 plaintiffs have either

00:39:59.560 graduated or and or the

00:40:01.800 two trans girls have

00:40:03.720 graduated is that correct

00:40:05.160 yes you're right we waited

00:40:07.480 over 14 months from the

00:40:09.680 time we finished

00:40:10.440 briefing to get a

00:40:11.440 substantive decision by

00:40:12.480 this court and then the

00:40:13.880 decision wasn't

00:40:14.740 substantive he didn't

00:40:15.800 even address the merits

00:40:16.960 of the case what court

00:40:18.720 was it filed in it was

00:40:20.140 filed in federal court in

00:40:21.260 Connecticut okay and so

00:40:22.920 there's is there you are

00:40:24.020 appealing and you know

00:40:25.660 it's been a long time

00:40:26.500 since I was in law school

00:40:28.020 and practice law but I do

00:40:29.640 remember that even if a

00:40:31.820 case becomes moot right

00:40:33.120 because the girls are no 1.00

00:40:33.960 longer in high school

00:40:34.740 there was the old

00:40:36.740 exception to mootness

00:40:37.800 that was capable of

00:40:39.960 repetition but evading

00:40:41.120 review if a if a case is

00:40:43.860 capable of repeating

00:40:44.740 itself but it continues

00:40:46.780 to evade review because

00:40:47.820 it takes so long for them

00:40:49.500 to adjudicate this stuff

00:40:50.700 the courts might overlook

00:40:52.080 the fact that a case is

00:40:53.140 moot and hear it anyway

00:40:54.220 you're absolutely right

00:40:55.700 that's a great

00:40:56.240 recollection that is a

00:40:57.920 doctrine that applies

00:40:59.160 here and in addition to

00:41:00.780 that I think it's

00:41:01.500 networthy that Connecticut

00:41:02.520 has not rescinded the

00:41:03.880 policy in any way shape

00:41:05.220 or form and for purposes

00:41:07.420 of whether a lawsuit is

00:41:08.660 new the court looks at

00:41:10.280 what's essentially called

00:41:11.280 standing and if there is

00:41:13.600 any means by which the

00:41:14.980 court can provide any

00:41:16.100 kind of a remedy there's

00:41:17.740 anything they can do even

00:41:19.040 if it's partially to make

00:41:20.660 it right then the case

00:41:22.200 cannot be moved so if you

00:41:23.740 think about the situation

00:41:25.000 like with Chelsea there's 0.51

00:41:26.360 no way the case is new

00:41:27.480 those records need to her

00:41:29.800 records need to be set

00:41:31.040 right it needs to be made

00:41:32.360 right what has happened

00:41:34.460 to her and the court had

00:41:35.600 the power to do that so

00:41:36.800 we're hopeful and

00:41:37.900 confident and it will be

00:41:38.860 reversed on appeal

00:41:40.080 wait so is that the remedy

00:41:41.720 you're seeking correct the

00:41:42.760 records remove the scores

00:41:44.400 of the trans girls and and

00:41:46.240 elevate your plaintiffs to

00:41:48.640 the spots they otherwise

00:41:49.760 would have had

00:41:50.560 that is part of the remedy

00:41:52.320 obviously for someone like

00:41:54.140 Alana I mean she needs to

00:41:55.880 be able to compete on a

00:41:56.980 fair playing field and and

00:41:58.220 know that this policy which

00:42:00.020 is violating federal law is

00:42:01.620 struck down for those track

00:42:04.060 athletes that have

00:42:04.920 graduated like Selena and

00:42:07.100 Chelsea the remedy there is

00:42:09.080 they should be given those

00:42:10.060 state titles if they won

00:42:11.940 those state titles and they in

00:42:13.980 Chelsea's case she lost four 1.00

00:42:15.660 different state championships

00:42:17.200 because biological men moved 0.81

00:42:19.560 her off the podium and I just

00:42:22.660 want to be clear that I think

00:42:24.620 this was pretty cowardly don't

00:42:25.900 you think because the the federal

00:42:27.420 district court understood the

00:42:28.880 exception that I just noted to

00:42:30.420 mootness and I think you tell

00:42:32.280 me what you think because

00:42:33.000 you're much more intimately

00:42:34.120 involved but it feels to me

00:42:35.660 like they kicked it because

00:42:37.320 they're afraid because it's a

00:42:38.860 very ginger delicate issue and

00:42:42.560 they certainly didn't want to

00:42:43.820 be the one handing down a

00:42:45.300 ruling like the one you wanted

00:42:46.660 it is deeply concerning and

00:42:49.360 extremely unfair to these girls 1.00

00:42:51.500 I mean if you think about the

00:42:52.680 situation that Alana's in the 1.00

00:42:54.820 suggestion that the district

00:42:56.020 court made that well if another

00:42:58.340 athlete comes in and competes

00:43:00.980 against her she could just go

00:43:02.160 to court and get a quick

00:43:03.200 ruling well we've already

00:43:04.720 proven that's not true you

00:43:06.980 know these athletes these

00:43:09.120 female athletes shouldn't be 1.00

00:43:10.320 forced to have to wonder

00:43:12.140 whether they have to go into

00:43:13.160 court to protect their rights

00:43:14.620 and we know that by including

00:43:16.420 biological men in women's 0.75

00:43:18.020 sports we're actually excluding

00:43:19.520 women now let me ask you a 0.98

00:43:21.860 couple of questions that I

00:43:23.000 asked the girls what do you

00:43:25.240 make of the fact that neither

00:43:26.180 Terry nor Andrea is undefeated

00:43:29.000 and they say that neither has

00:43:31.520 dominant race times among high

00:43:33.380 school girls nationally they

00:43:35.280 say plaintiffs that you guys

00:43:37.380 listed the best 2019 outdoor

00:43:39.900 times for the 100 meter for

00:43:41.360 girls and the best times listed

00:43:43.160 for Terry and Andrea don't come

00:43:44.780 close to the best times on that

00:43:46.240 list for the cis girls who are

00:43:49.200 listed so they're basically saying

00:43:50.960 look they're not running in

00:43:52.200 college they didn't dominate

00:43:54.200 nationally they're not

00:43:56.060 undefeated and so if they had

00:43:58.380 this inherent advantage alleged

00:44:00.500 by the lawsuit those stats would

00:44:02.840 look very different they'd be

00:44:04.080 uncatchable and unbeatable well

00:44:07.000 title nine requires equal

00:44:08.680 opportunities and a level playing

00:44:11.140 field and so to say that sometimes

00:44:13.160 the girls win is not good enough 1.00

00:44:15.500 under federal law but even if it

00:44:17.060 even if that wasn't the case we

00:44:18.940 don't base our laws on exceptions

00:44:20.400 and and 10 to 50 percent there's a

00:44:23.820 10 to 50 percent performance gap

00:44:25.600 between men and women generally

00:44:27.040 and I think Megan something that

00:44:29.040 gets lost in this whole thing is

00:44:31.220 yes we're talking about

00:44:32.480 scholarships and medals and podium

00:44:34.520 spots and championships and

00:44:36.020 banners in the gym and bank

00:44:37.520 let's think of all the high school

00:44:38.780 experiences that we have but we're

00:44:41.700 also talking for many girls about

00:44:43.580 the basic opportunity to compete

00:44:45.600 every time a biological male is on a

00:44:48.520 podium it displaces a girl but 1.00

00:44:50.400 there's also a limited number of

00:44:52.000 opportunities to even be on a team

00:44:54.120 and what about the notion that

00:44:56.280 we're disconnecting thousands of

00:44:58.800 hours of training from success

00:45:00.940 that's wrong so I think it's a bigger

00:45:03.940 issue than just oh once or twice out

00:45:06.600 of 30 races once or twice Chelsea

00:45:08.700 won but that's not the issue that's

00:45:11.020 really a red herring what about the

00:45:13.480 fact that the NCAA and the

00:45:15.360 International Olympic Committee allow

00:45:17.600 transgender women to compete on the

00:45:20.560 women's teams they say has they have

00:45:22.080 to has to be after a period of

00:45:23.560 undergoing hormone therapy which

00:45:25.700 both of the trans girls in this case 0.96

00:45:27.660 did as well they underwent hormone

00:45:29.660 therapy but they say as long as they

00:45:31.520 do that and they set sort of a limit

00:45:33.640 like a bare minimum that they have to

00:45:35.220 be on hormones they can compete so how 0.99

00:45:38.020 are we going to get high schools to go

00:45:40.460 against what the NCAA and the IOC do

00:45:42.440 well first of all I would say that the

00:45:45.280 problem in the high school situation is

00:45:47.200 as we've heard they are allowing

00:45:49.040 biological males to compete as males and 0.98

00:45:52.440 then immediately switch over with no

00:45:54.340 testosterone suppressants at all but we

00:45:57.040 also know that the science tells us that

00:45:59.120 testosterone suppressants does

00:46:00.740 essentially next to nothing in terms of

00:46:04.160 leveling the playing field and that it

00:46:07.140 there's nothing that you can do there's no

00:46:09.220 amount of testosterone suppressants that

00:46:11.720 is really going to significantly change

00:46:13.980 muscle mass bone density even the size

00:46:17.560 of our hearts and our lungs and and the

00:46:20.040 just basic physical autonomy and anatomy

00:46:23.760 that we have that doesn't change through

00:46:25.580 testosterone suppressants and okay but

00:46:27.820 let me ask you because we're going to

00:46:28.660 have the doctors come on and debate this

00:46:30.140 but that there does appear to be a

00:46:31.860 difference with prepubescent and

00:46:34.300 postpubescent biological boys so if you

00:46:36.980 get a prepubescent boy who goes on hormone 0.63

00:46:39.600 blockers and then starts taking female 0.95

00:46:41.980 hormones if she is at a she has a far

00:46:48.040 less greater advantage and she may have 0.89

00:46:49.940 no advantage over girls like the 1.00

00:46:52.940 plaintiffs in this case then somebody who

00:46:55.740 was born male lived as a boy came into

00:46:58.720 puberty had the testosterone shoot up

00:47:01.000 developed the bigger muscles the longer

00:47:02.840 limbs you know the bigger heart and all

00:47:04.740 this stuff and then decided to transition

00:47:07.700 well first of all I would go back to

00:47:10.180 those who have gone through puberty

00:47:11.780 there are no amount of suppressants that

00:47:13.860 can undo the advantages and it's a safety

00:47:15.780 risk I mean we've seen that in multiple

00:47:17.600 sports already but let's just talk about

00:47:19.960 those who perhaps might have not gone

00:47:23.060 through puberty and started taking

00:47:24.500 prostitutes hormones or testosterone

00:47:27.240 suppressants the study suggests that

00:47:29.700 there still is a difference but more

00:47:32.920 importantly as the UK highest court has

00:47:36.100 just found it's unethical to coerce kids

00:47:38.560 to undergo life-altering treatment that's

00:47:41.520 likely going to result in sterilization

00:47:43.440 and when science actually tells us that

00:47:46.100 70 to 90 percent of these kids if they

00:47:48.560 receive appropriate treatment and

00:47:50.120 counseling they're going to live at peace

00:47:51.620 with their bodies so I don't think we

00:47:55.240 want to have eight and ten year old boys

00:47:57.900 which is the age we're talking about

00:47:59.440 here they're not competent to make a

00:48:01.680 decision that they want for the rest of

00:48:03.340 their lives to be a woman that's harmful 1.00

00:48:05.540 it's interesting in other words it's

00:48:07.580 creating another incentive for parents

00:48:09.960 who more and more if they consider

00:48:12.020 themselves like super woke or super

00:48:14.360 progressive on some of these issues

00:48:16.160 more and more they're not even going with

00:48:18.740 a girl or a boy upon birth they call them

00:48:21.340 babies and and they let the child decide

00:48:24.640 over time but your point is this would be

00:48:27.260 another incentive for a child raised like

00:48:30.180 that to choose boy if in fact they're a

00:48:33.420 biological girl sorry reverse that to 1.00

00:48:36.180 choose girl if they're a biological boy

00:48:37.900 because they might want to run on on the

00:48:39.920 other track team I mean that would be an

00:48:41.520 extreme thing to do but your point is

00:48:43.100 it's another incentive to use hormones 0.86

00:48:44.800 that really can be very damaging to

00:48:46.820 prepubescent children

00:48:47.800 absolutely and the longer we go the more

00:48:51.280 we're seeing that I mean Sweden has just

00:48:53.000 taken action as I referenced that the UK

00:48:55.280 high court has said that kids can't give

00:48:57.380 informed consent on this and I think it

00:48:59.940 also underscores the breadth of this

00:49:02.460 ideology because it's even being applied in

00:49:04.600 in the health care provider context

00:49:06.540 Alliance Defending Freedom has a case

00:49:08.900 right now involving Alan Josephson who was

00:49:11.140 a division chair of psychiatry for

00:49:13.640 adolescent and children at the University

00:49:16.060 of Louisville and he merely advocated at

00:49:18.920 a heritage foundation panel that watchful

00:49:21.660 waiting for precubescent kids might be an

00:49:24.460 appropriate response and he was fired from

00:49:27.420 his job and we're seeing laws passed that

00:49:29.600 are silencing health care providers who

00:49:31.460 have ethical concerns about rushing kids

00:49:34.860 into this life-altering treatment so I think

00:49:38.220 we need to just slow down and we certainly

00:49:40.120 don't want to create a situation where some

00:49:42.860 kid is thinking I should go ahead and say I

00:49:45.680 want to identify as a girl so that I can

00:49:47.640 participate in girl sports

00:49:49.120 oh my god this is so crazy for our school we

00:49:52.040 just we just went through one of those

00:49:54.360 educational sessions on how to keep your

00:49:56.420 kids off drugs off alcohol and so on is

00:49:58.380 very helpful actually but one of the points

00:50:01.120 the guy was making was keep in mind that

00:50:03.220 the teenage brain is not fully developed that

00:50:06.160 the frontal cortex which assesses risk is

00:50:10.780 not yet fully developed whereas the middle

00:50:12.940 brain really is much more developed which

00:50:16.360 responds to dopamine rushes right to like

00:50:19.040 yes they're snapping for me yes they're

00:50:21.040 they're clapping for me because I've said

00:50:22.540 I'm trans and the risks that might come with

00:50:25.900 some of these crazy surgeries and hormone

00:50:28.980 you know choices they they can't fully

00:50:32.580 appreciate them before that brain is fully

00:50:36.460 developed so you can see honesty in the

00:50:39.900 discussion when it comes to something like

00:50:41.360 keep your kid off drugs right but it doesn't

00:50:43.420 translate over to keep your kid from getting a

00:50:46.180 double mastectomy or from choosing a hormone

00:50:49.040 regime that will make her infertile before she 1.00

00:50:51.920 hits 18 you're spot on and instead of having

00:50:55.800 those open discussions those discussions are

00:50:58.160 shut down by frankly bullying and name calling and

00:51:01.500 shaming and silencing women in particular who are 0.94

00:51:04.700 raising concerns and I just I don't think that we

00:51:08.400 can we can allow that because these laws affect even

00:51:11.580 more than sports women's shelters are impacted by 0.96

00:51:14.500 them walker rooms dorm rooms as I talked about professors

00:51:18.180 are impacted by them health care providers it's just a

00:51:21.620 much bigger issue that we need to we need to talk about but

00:51:24.580 in the meantime ensuring fair competition is something

00:51:28.340 that title line promises and we want to hold the

00:51:31.460 government's feet to the fire on it what about the fact

00:51:34.380 that that no women's groups are supporting you

00:51:36.580 they never do well I wouldn't say no none um you know

00:51:42.820 that's been the the interesting side of this is actually

00:51:45.900 the more I would say radical feminists do support us and 1.00

00:51:49.320 have been some of our best allies um you know the women's 1.00

00:51:52.920 liberation front save women sports has also come in and

00:51:56.360 so those are women that you know personally as a more 1.00

00:51:59.260 conservative woman I wouldn't agree with them on a lot 0.99

00:52:01.500 of issues but man are we united on the danger that gender 1.00

00:52:06.280 identity ideology presents to women because it it is 0.99

00:52:10.420 significant and in multiple areas well you have people like

00:52:14.280 martina navratirola who you know was an icon in the sports 0.99

00:52:18.880 community and the tennis community for blazing a trail for

00:52:23.240 the lgbtq community coming out you know back before it was all 1.00

00:52:27.820 that fashionable and um you know being a great example and she

00:52:31.900 sort of came out and said this is insane are you really going

00:52:35.260 to let a trans woman compete against again it's cis women is 1.00

00:52:40.980 the but you know or you could just say biological women um in 1.00

00:52:44.080 like professional tennis because they'll get killed the the

00:52:48.200 biological women will get killed and there are lots of 1.00

00:52:51.420 examples of this there was there was um a case a long time

00:52:54.700 ago not that long but like where serena and venus took up uh

00:53:00.380 somebody offered to compete against them saying um they

00:53:04.160 said we'll play anybody who's outside the top 200 in the

00:53:08.560 the male tennis world and the guy who was 203rd said okay

00:53:13.520 i challenge accepted let's go he killed them it was crushing

00:53:19.100 they couldn't they couldn't it was like me playing against serena

00:53:22.500 that's how it went um so you know it's it's quite obvious

00:53:27.020 that she's right right that if this really elevates a meaningful

00:53:30.600 way to professional athletics the women can kiss their titles 1.00

00:53:33.880 and their money and their endorsements goodbye now that

00:53:36.360 hasn't yet happened but that's the risk she got dismissed

00:53:39.360 as a transphobe and spent sort of a long time trying to say

00:53:41.980 i'm not i'm not please let me make it up to you but still she

00:53:44.960 does have a group trying to say can we talk reasonably about

00:53:48.980 this can we be sensitive to people who are trans and still protect

00:53:53.360 biological girls and and the trans community is still dismissing her group 0.99

00:53:57.420 as transphobic awful can't talk about it so let me ask you

00:54:01.260 as a person of reason what is the solution because i feel for

00:54:06.460 these trans girls i really do they already have it 1.00

00:54:08.760 rough right when you're trans i mean you get you got a lot to deal with 0.99

00:54:12.060 where should they run you know like how how should they compete

00:54:16.220 in a way that would be fair to all involved i think the solution is to

00:54:21.100 ensure that when it comes to sports we we don't

00:54:24.500 we don't separate sports because of feelings we don't separate sports

00:54:29.140 um you know because of ideology or politics we separate them because of

00:54:33.180 physical differences so i think the solution

00:54:34.920 is that we can have co-ed teams and schools may want to move to having some

00:54:39.880 co-ed teams in certain sports where there are not safety issues

00:54:43.420 but by and large you should compete based on

00:54:47.520 your biological sex again because there's just 0.99

00:54:51.300 no amount of testosterone suppressants that can change the physical advantages

00:54:55.340 and the safety implications you know we've talked about um rugby for

00:55:00.240 example they're refusing to have those who identify

00:55:03.080 as female and who are male compete at all because they recognize that

00:55:08.260 so i mean i think that the safety issues are significant

00:55:11.020 and the testosterone suppressants don't do anything really to minimize those

00:55:15.440 issues in addition well are there are there safety issues i want to i want to

00:55:19.340 get your next point too forgive me but are there safety issues in track and field

00:55:22.580 where they're not you know it's not hand-to-hand combat like wrestling on a

00:55:25.900 mat or like rugby well that's where i actually was going was uh when you look at

00:55:30.860 even track for example the ncaa division two athlete cc tefler her performance 1.00

00:55:36.580 times actually improved in several track and field events after a year of cross-sex 1.00

00:55:42.920 hormones so you know the again the idea that it 0.99

00:55:45.900 takes away or makes it makes a level playing field is just not accurate

00:55:49.420 but megan i want to go back to the safety issues too because

00:55:53.460 so many of the sports it does matter and if you think we've had

00:55:56.940 cases or instances involving volleyball where girls have gotten concussions

00:56:00.960 obviously there's wrestling and weight lifting there's swimming

00:56:04.100 there's cycling we've had instances my own daughter had instances in fast pitch 0.99

00:56:09.980 and in soccer where a male is playing a catcher or a goalie 0.82

00:56:13.820 these are the real instances that are happening across the country

00:56:18.240 and i think it's on us to ensure that girls have that equal opportunity but 0.99

00:56:23.840 they're also safe when they're playing sports or as safe as we can make them

00:56:27.140 hmm that's interesting that's that's difficult then it gets really tricky

00:56:31.760 um yeah when you have to worry about natural physical advantages that make men

00:56:37.460 stronger certainly post puberty i just feel like the case is very clear

00:56:40.300 but we're gonna ask the docs um and you have to worry about like fast pitch that's a

00:56:45.400 good point i don't i feel like can't there be a way i don't know let me ask

00:56:49.400 chelsea and a lot of this like what do you girls think is what should we do with

00:56:54.320 trans athletes trans girls it's never the trans boy who's the issue it's so it's 0.95

00:56:58.540 99.99 of the cases the issue is when it's a biological male transitioning to

00:57:03.620 female and wanting to play with with the girls what what should happen to them 1.00

00:57:08.520 where how do we deal with them chelsea um there's a place for everyone in sports

00:57:14.060 um it just is where is it most fair and um the most important thing is to protect

00:57:20.140 the biological female category um you know we're not saying that these 0.98

00:57:24.320 transgender athletes can't participate in sports we just want to protect the 0.85

00:57:28.920 female category so that females have the same opportunities that their male 1.00

00:57:33.380 counterparts do would it work to create i mean i realize there's not that many

00:57:38.200 trans athletes but it would it work to create alas is alana

00:57:42.540 like a different category you know there's the boys league there's the girls

00:57:48.080 league and then there's the trans league i think that that would be a more fair

00:57:52.280 solution than the solution that we have right now which is to allow biological

00:57:56.660 males to compete in a biological female category would it work alana if you let 1.00

00:58:01.500 the trans girls compete against you in the races and the and the other you know 0.99

00:58:06.760 related track and field events and then put an asterisk behind their time or their

00:58:13.140 win so that you trying to get a scholarship into college would say yes i came in

00:58:18.720 third i lost to two trans athletes just so they know and they can make a decision

00:58:23.780 about what that means about your time personally for me i think that that would

00:58:28.980 still like affect my mentality while i'm racing i would still feel like even

00:58:34.480 though their times aren't necessarily going against mine that i would still feel

00:58:39.220 like it's unfair and i would still like see those athletes in front of me and kind of

00:58:43.800 realize how far ahead i mean that they are and i would still feel like i'm in

00:58:48.180 like the same solution i mean the same situation as i was before plus it doesn't

00:58:52.440 give you that feeling of crossing the finish line first you know and like being the

00:58:59.180 winner i mean at least this is what i imagine that feeling is like i never did

00:59:02.360 it but it must be wonderful is it wonderful yeah it's really great i don't know it's

00:59:10.460 like it's such a difficult situation and i do feel like i mean you girls are now just

00:59:16.120 recently out of high school are you alana in high school is are you at a high school

00:59:20.060 that is as encouraging of people to consider whether they're trans as we have here in new

00:59:26.260 york city like at our schools they're really it's almost like they're begging you to consider

00:59:30.840 it as an option available to you well i go to a very diverse school in my school and

00:59:36.100 it's very big my school is almost like 4 000 kids so it's very diverse and like a lot of

00:59:41.400 different people there so i think that um you definitely are encouraged to like be yourself

00:59:45.880 and express yourself how you'd like to the point i'm getting at is do you think we're going to see

00:59:50.460 more see the trans community grow i do think so and especially in sports because since the policy

00:59:57.220 that we have now is unfair and allows biological males to compete in the female category i think that

01:00:02.400 if a change isn't made then definitely more transgender athletes will start to pop up in 0.95

01:00:06.980 the female category i'll end it with you chelsea rounding back to the administration that now just 1.00

01:00:13.140 simply says about girls like you basically deal with it because trans rights are human rights and 0.53

01:00:18.780 you're on the wrong side what do you say i would say that you know women's opportunities 1.00

01:00:24.280 matter and i think they have been kind of dismissing um this issue by saying trans women are women

01:00:32.080 um and they're just ignoring the biological um reality um that trans women have a advantage over 1.00

01:00:41.980 biological women and it's really frustrating to hear them dismiss our stories um and say that 1.00

01:00:50.020 you know there's no issue and that we haven't been harmed because we have and um you know i hope that

01:00:57.500 our lawsuit can um kind of write what has been wronged well i admire you both of you girls i admire

01:01:05.660 your moms too i'm like it's pretty strong and uh as i said a lot of it was your mom's piece in the

01:01:11.240 post where i was like this is the first thing i saw that i was like whoa wait what she really brought

01:01:15.800 it home um so good luck and you know what win or lose i think this whole process of standing up for

01:01:23.440 what you believe in and challenging something you think is unfair is a worthwhile process for you and

01:01:28.840 and kristin good for you too because i know the crazy people at the southern poverty law center have 1.00

01:01:33.360 have deemed adf a hate group they've deemed everybody a hate group ben carson is a hate group

01:01:37.780 according to them um but you guys keep fighting and you often win it's disputes that you know sort of

01:01:45.460 these lawyers on the other side who always want to be seen as in the sort of correct uh pc position

01:01:51.420 would never take so good for you guys i'm glad you're there and i'm glad you're doing such good

01:01:55.540 work thanks megan all the best we'll stay following it coming up we're going to bring in our experts

01:02:01.940 can puberty blockers and or cross-sex hormones undo the natural physical advantages of one sex over

01:02:10.740 another we're going to get into it in a very thoughtful fascinating way i always know i'm

01:02:15.260 onto something when steve krakauer our executive producer sends me a little note in the middle of

01:02:19.900 the interview this is fascinating and i got one on this next segment so you're going to love it and

01:02:24.540 speaking of steve krakauer he's here because he's always he's always lurking he's always listening

01:02:30.120 it's literally his job and um it does sound creepy so it was fascinating was it not

01:02:36.760 i i know it really was i've never heard a conversation like that before it was timely

01:02:40.980 and important and and respectful and it was kind of perfect it's great it's like the conversation

01:02:46.340 our show was born to have but this is not why i bring you in i bring you in for a feature we hear

01:02:51.960 of the megan kelly show called asked and answered where we try to answer some of our listeners

01:02:56.980 questions they can be about the news they can be about life they can be about anything so what do we

01:03:01.620 have today yeah megan this was this was an interesting one you know we talk about the apple reviews a lot

01:03:05.580 but we haven't actually asked a question that we got in the apple reviews before but we wanted to

01:03:10.140 today because we thought it was a really interesting one this is from kaylin uh in the apple reviews who

01:03:14.820 says first of all that you have been a role model for her uh and she appreciates your strength and

01:03:19.220 intellect while maintaining your beauty and femininity i feel like a lot of women think to be empowered is 1.00

01:03:24.480 to be extremely masculine she says she said she read settle for more and about your divorce before you

01:03:29.280 met doug her question is this she says she's in a relationship with a very sweet extremely kind-hearted

01:03:34.920 man she finds him physically attractive as well as his kindness attractive but intellectually they

01:03:39.540 do not sync up she says she's really intellectually stimulated when she's with him in fact she finds

01:03:44.960 herself frustrated when she attempts to engage in a political or philosophical discussion and so she

01:03:50.880 wants to know is it crazy and careless of me that she wants a partner that can meet with her

01:03:55.800 intellectually and she says it's a capricious to give up a safe and sweet man in pursuit of a

01:04:00.680 relationship that is intellectually stimulating and challenging oh kaylin thank you for that that is

01:04:06.720 a sweet like i'm honored that you would even ask me to weigh in on that here's what i think it comes

01:04:12.100 down to your values like when you think of your top values as a woman and what you want in a man and 0.89

01:04:19.000 this can work the other way around too what are they because they're different for everybody not

01:04:23.340 everybody would put intellectual match in the top five some people would put that at number nine

01:04:29.180 right and they would put good partner good potential father funny good earner whatever it is

01:04:36.840 higher on the list so let's say your guy has got those top five i just mentioned and intellectual

01:04:44.880 firepower is farther down the list and and it's not really one of your top top priorities then i think

01:04:51.200 you've got your answer you don't need that everybody makes sacrifices nobody notwithstanding

01:04:55.580 we see in the movies nobody's got all 10 of the top 10 nobody's got all 20 of the top 20 we make

01:05:01.040 compromises right like what's really important to me like this one's a deal breaker this one's not

01:05:05.600 um and so you've gotta figure out where that ranks if it's number one he's probably gotta go

01:05:15.320 like i don't think we can compromise on number one like if you look at the list of top 10 things you

01:05:20.780 want to meet and the person's missing three six and 10 i think you could you could make that

01:05:28.060 relationship work you know what i mean but if he's missing if the three he's missing are one two and

01:05:32.420 three you gotta move on that's not gonna work long haul and i i just think like one of the things

01:05:38.160 that drew me to doug for sure yes he's very good looking um but was the fact that i think he's

01:05:46.460 smarter than i am uh and i love that i don't feel intimidated by that i think it's a turn-on

01:05:51.160 so and and that kind of turn-on can last until we're old and gray right like if you marry somebody

01:05:56.460 for looks forget it they don't hold just look around um unless you're some you know like weird

01:06:04.040 person like paulina portzkova or uh who's the other one who's constantly posting the bikini 1.00

01:06:09.060 photos of herself elizabeth hurley anyway normally the looks go and but i don't know so you got to

01:06:16.720 figure that out if if intellectual stimulation is what you really want if that's in your top

01:06:21.400 you know three or five and you're not getting it it may be a tough come to jesus moment for you

01:06:28.720 i will say that as somebody for whom that was definitely a requirement it's wonderful to have

01:06:35.800 it's wonderful to sit across the dinner table from somebody and be able to have enlightened

01:06:42.360 interesting conversation from which you learn right you're not always the information giver

01:06:46.740 you're the information getter and who whose base of knowledge is totally different from your own

01:06:51.680 right like doug's not in news doug is an author his love is literature and history and he's just so

01:06:58.520 much better informed than i am on so many other subjects so he learns from me and i learn from him

01:07:02.960 and that's what's really exciting right like that's what gets things like fiery i mean that's

01:07:09.280 maybe that's just saying we're a couple of geeks and uh that's what turns us on but i think beauty

01:07:13.820 fades uh i think funny is forever so that's a great thing to have um but it sounds to me like you

01:07:21.160 already know the answer like you already know what you want and you probably wouldn't have fired

01:07:26.420 this in to somebody like me having read my book if you didn't want me to say it's important right

01:07:33.700 we tend to seek out the advice from the people we know are going to give us the answers we want

01:07:36.680 so probably this whole exercise has already answered your question even before i uttered a word

01:07:41.880 and maybe my words have confirmed it for you um but do some soul searching and get really honest

01:07:49.300 about what the long term looks like for you and the person you're with now because it's a lot harder

01:07:56.420 once you've really committed it's a lot harder to undo once you've walked down the aisle i really

01:08:02.900 believe the true moment you get married is when you mail out the invitations that is the true moment

01:08:07.180 you are married very few people feel comfortable undoing it after that happens they should feel

01:08:12.480 comfortable you should not go through with it just because you mail the invitations um but it's so much

01:08:18.380 easier to undo now and and just another story on this i remember talking to my lady amy my therapist

01:08:24.460 when i was um getting divorced from dan and saying you know like well i don't want to say this because

01:08:30.220 it's mean i don't say that one because it's mean and she's the one who helped me realize saying your

01:08:34.280 true feelings is not mean just because the other person won't like them right meanness is saying

01:08:41.660 something with the intention of being cruel and landing a blow that's that's communicating

01:08:46.880 in your case i this isn't working for me because i don't think we're intellectually matched it's not

01:08:53.380 to say you're smarter he's dumber it's like we're not matched we're not interested in the same stuff

01:08:56.820 we don't fire off in the same way that's not mean that's honest and some things can be fixed and some

01:09:02.580 things cannot right if it's like you need to read the newspaper more because we have to be able to talk

01:09:06.740 to the about the news okay somebody could do something about that but like we're not built the same

01:09:12.220 intellectually and i think you should be more interested in life than you are well i don't

01:09:16.980 know that that's fixable anyway um i hope that's helpful in some way i love that you read the book

01:09:22.500 i love that you took the time to share something so personal with me and took the risk of sharing it

01:09:26.340 with our listeners too and hopefully this has been marginally helpful uh for you and maybe somebody

01:09:31.920 else out there lots of love caitlin good luck with it and if you too would like an appointment

01:09:35.820 with dr megan um you can just email in steve uh yes questions uh at devil may care media.com or

01:09:47.060 apparently you could just ask him in the apple reviews yeah i'm still reading the apple reviews

01:09:50.820 i love reading the apple reviews okay up next we are going to get to our experts on this issue and

01:09:57.120 these two have done their homework let me tell you who's coming uh we're going to have dr gregory brown

01:10:02.720 who's a tenured professor of exercise science at the university of nebraska kearney

01:10:06.440 doctor of philosophy from iowa state majored in health and human performance emphasis in biological

01:10:11.440 bases of physical activity very reasonable guy he's got real hesitations about whether you can undo

01:10:17.260 the advantages of biology also joining us is joanna harper joanna harper is a transgender woman who is a 0.84

01:10:26.220 medical physicist and actually an advisor to the international olympic committee competitive runner too

01:10:31.920 so she's got first-hand experience with some of this and these two joanna and greg have

01:10:37.700 an awesome debate which i promise you promise you you will love it is next right after this

01:10:46.720 joanna let me start with you as i understand it there's a big difference between biological males

01:10:58.740 who compete who want to compete in the girls leagues before puberty and who do puberty blockers

01:11:08.900 and cross-sex hormones without ever having gone through puberty versus post-puberty transitioners

01:11:16.460 is that correct it is correct although i would uh strongly prefer that transgender women not be referred

01:11:24.100 to as biological males um there is a strong indication that gender identity is at least largely if not

01:11:32.060 entirely biological and hence transgender women are never entirely biologically male so please don't use 1.00

01:11:39.140 that term yeah i got it i do my uh my plaintiffs in the first half of this show and their lawyer were

01:11:47.220 trying to find a way of distinguishing between the cis girls and the trans girls um and it's really tough

01:11:55.400 i mean the language you can't be entirely sensitive without spending four sentences each time you say it

01:12:01.300 uh so i'm i mean no offense and i've done plenty of segments where you know the language is precise it's a

01:12:07.380 short form just meant to encapsulate for the audience so let's just go back so there's a difference

01:12:12.640 between people who transition pre-puberty and post-puberty in terms of their physical advantages

01:12:19.440 over cis girls you agree absolutely okay and and you agree with that too greg i would say we really

01:12:27.000 don't know because there's just not been much research on long-term effects of the puberty blocking

01:12:34.180 drugs so we don't know how it affects the growth and development of a male individual who's transitioning

01:12:41.400 to female if they start at age 8 or 10 or 11 or whatnot so your your position is there may not

01:12:48.280 be as big a difference uh for somebody who prior to puberty um somebody again biological male or

01:12:55.520 somebody who is identified male at birth that there's not that big a difference potentially even

01:13:00.920 if that person starts on puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones before they ever hit puberty you think

01:13:05.800 it's still problematic for that person to run against girls or compete against girls i i do especially

01:13:11.980 given just the lack of science so we don't know what the effects are of those puberty blocking drugs

01:13:18.020 all right so then let's let's just start with post-puberty and see how that shakes out right

01:13:25.180 joanna is do you think it's true that that most boys most children who are identified male at birth

01:13:32.480 have a natural physical advantage over most girls post-puberty without any outside intervention

01:13:38.700 yes okay so do you think it's problematic when somebody who's like 15 and has reached puberty

01:13:47.840 decides i'm gonna now run against the cis girls without doing anything without taking any hormones 0.82

01:13:54.520 i i would suggest it depends on on what level they're competing at most uh children at that age or

01:14:01.600 adolescents at that age are going out for teams largely because their friends are on the team

01:14:06.720 uh and you know they're they they may want to win at the time of the competition but they're not

01:14:13.500 really that serious about sports and for those people i i don't think it's problematic but there are

01:14:20.560 are certainly high functioning athletes and any uh any trans girl who hasn't started hormone therapy

01:14:29.020 and who is a successful athlete in in the men or the boys competition uh prior to to transitioning

01:14:36.420 and all she does is social transition yes then then i would say that's problematic so how do we address

01:14:42.500 that in your and i should and i should say that you you are trans yourself and you are somebody who's

01:14:48.160 studied this and so you've you've lived this in addition and then you're an athlete so you've lived

01:14:52.500 that lived this in addition to studying it so what should happen for that child who who you just

01:14:57.820 described to make it fair again if we're talking about 15 um adolescents go through puberty at very

01:15:05.980 different rates and they also uh become athletes at very different rates but but if we're talking

01:15:12.800 about somebody who has gone through puberty and who is a successful athlete then it's probably

01:15:19.140 appropriate to require that person to be on hormone therapy before uh competing in uh in

01:15:27.680 in girls events and with a 15 year old that would probably mean uh gnrh agonist or so-called puberty 0.84

01:15:34.600 blockers because most clinics most states won't allow uh transgender children to go on cross-sex

01:15:43.240 hormone therapy prior to age 16 okay so it depends what the hormone therapy depends on the age of the

01:15:51.760 child so if it's mid-puberty or pre-puberty then they should have to show that they're on a puberty

01:15:57.540 blocker um in in my opinion yes yes yeah yeah that's fine i mean i know you studied this and

01:16:03.880 you've researched a lot of other studies so your opinion is why we have your expertise on this um

01:16:10.320 okay and so when they turn 16 should we be building into the law you know because the lawyer for the

01:16:19.000 girls was saying we shouldn't be incentivizing trans girls to take cross-sex hormones by by sort of 1.00

01:16:27.140 requiring that you know for them to compete she thinks that for a different reason than you think

01:16:31.100 that but what do you think of that right if we say and you stay on the puberty blockers and then at some

01:16:37.160 point you have to go on cross-sex hormones that creates an incentive for them to do it that maybe they 0.96

01:16:42.840 maybe they don't want they don't want to do that yet yeah and and that is is absolutely uh a problem

01:16:50.020 and and i understand that you know at 16 this is a huge step to take um but the difference in long-term

01:16:59.220 effects between puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones is is enormous uh and so there are some

01:17:06.600 very serious implications and and they should be considered very strongly and suggesting that uh

01:17:14.100 you know you have to go on these cross-sex hormones at 16 in order to play sports is it is problematic 0.92

01:17:21.040 in in in some ways but i think it should be recognized that there really are no ideal solutions to this and

01:17:29.780 and yeah um uh again if you're asking my opinion for for high functioning uh uh athletes in at age 16

01:17:40.360 yes this should be required do you know what happens to somebody i mean there must be a point at which

01:17:46.740 the doctor says you can no longer stay on puberty blockers right because what happens to a to a

01:17:53.180 someone who's identified male at birth who isn't sure who thinks they might be a trans girl um but decides

01:17:59.380 to do puberty blockers like how long can that continue before they're forced to come off of them

01:18:05.400 there are are um older men uh who take this the same drug for prostate cancer and sometimes they stay on

01:18:16.280 them for several years um but it's certainly less than ideal to have an adolescent on these drugs you

01:18:23.300 know for a long-term period of time um it's uncertain exactly you know what sort of side effects that there

01:18:33.320 might be um and so you know from a therapeutic point it's probably more ideal to to transition this child

01:18:44.200 to cross-sex hormone therapy but again you know if the child isn't ready uh if the parents aren't ready

01:18:52.640 uh you know there are a number of other factors to consider besides what's medically ideal

01:18:59.840 hmm it's so complicated it's so complicated and it's something that we really haven't dealt with

01:19:06.900 we're just figuring this out on the fly as we go um which is you know led to objections and hurt

01:19:12.920 feelings and stress on both sides i get that um all right so let's talk about because i really think

01:19:20.020 that the the pre-pubescent child is a that's a toughie that is a toughie um so let's talk about

01:19:26.320 the post-pubescent child the child the the child identified male at birth who decides that you know

01:19:32.620 they think that they are trans and they want to live their life as a female and um now they want to

01:19:39.940 compete in girl sports because that's pretty much i think what we're dealing with in the connecticut 0.80

01:19:43.840 legal case um why let me ask you greg why after being on hormones because the the lawsuit against

01:19:51.660 them says that they just they they just like quickly decided to transition and and sort of

01:19:57.460 jumped into uh female sports and their their side the eslu says that's not true they'd been living their

01:20:03.480 lives as females for a while prior and it wasn't spur of the moment that they had really been wrestling

01:20:09.480 with it for a long time um why shouldn't we let children like that compete in girl sports well 0.98

01:20:16.820 the bottom line is there are large differences in athletic performance between boys and girls you

01:20:25.400 know if we look at it about 11 years old the difference may be three to five percent but then as

01:20:30.800 we get into those later teenage years as puberty has had more effect we see differences of 10 percent

01:20:37.040 where boys are 10 percent faster than girls um they're 20 30 40 50 percent stronger in terms of

01:20:44.140 throwing or weight lifting or those types of things and so if they have not done anything to suppress that

01:20:50.660 then they are males competing in female sports irregardless of what their identity is because they

01:20:58.040 are still biologically males they've done nothing to alter their biology but don't most of these sports

01:21:03.740 organizations don't most of these sports organizations and greg require them to have been on some sort of

01:21:08.600 hormone you know suppression therapy or something it varies a lot from state to state whether it does

01:21:15.600 require that them to engage in some type of hormone suppression or cross-sex hormone use and it varies a lot

01:21:22.380 from state to state and it varies a lot on whether there's actually any enforcement of that whether they do

01:21:28.660 testing on it or whether it is just purely a written statement it could be from a parent it could be from a

01:21:34.720 doctor depending on the state and what the laws are and so it gets really complicated as far as that goes

01:21:40.180 so in some states you can you can just say i am a girl i identify as female and race away and you don't have

01:21:48.720 to prove any time on hormones i think that's actually what happened in the connecticut cases but in some states

01:21:54.600 that's possible yes yes in some states that's possible

01:21:58.660 okay so but what about the in the states where you do have to show some sort of hormone treatment

01:22:03.760 let's say for a year right that uh whether it's a 16 year old or a college athlete that that decides i

01:22:10.800 want to compete as a girl i i am a girl and i'm going to go on all the you know the cross-sex hormones 0.70

01:22:17.140 to try to make that as close to reality or an actual reality as as possible well if we look at the

01:22:24.960 research that's been published on this so far we have a paper from 2018 that looked at female or 0.92

01:22:33.060 sorry male to female athletes and after 10 months their strength was not reduced they still had the

01:22:42.060 hand grip strength that they had before they started with the transition and so a 16 or 17 year old boy

01:22:49.120 is stronger just the average 16 or 17 year old boy is going to be stronger than 95 of 16 or 17 year old

01:22:56.260 girls and even stronger than most adult women and so they would still have that advantage and strength 1.00

01:23:01.360 if we look at this in adults you know 20 year old 30 year old adults a year of cross-sex hormones two

01:23:09.580 years of cross-sex hormones the strength is only reduced by four to maybe nine percent and these are

01:23:16.820 individuals that are going to be anywhere from 30 to 60 percent stronger than women and so they'll

01:23:22.600 still have an advantage even with the suppression of testosterone and the administration of estrogens

01:23:28.420 what do you make of that joanna well first of all i believe that greg misspeaks when he talks

01:23:34.780 about transgender athletes all of these studies were uh these studies from 2018 and there were

01:23:41.240 more than one were on non-athletic transgender people and there is a substantial difference

01:23:48.020 between studying athletes and studying non-athletes certainly if we are talking about cisgender people

01:23:54.640 we would never rely on a study of non-athletes to make any decision about athletes in particular

01:24:03.340 when we talk about strength uh several of these studies found that there is a substantial uh

01:24:11.240 strength deficit that these uh trans women had compared to cisgender men even before starting

01:24:18.540 hormone therapy and and that's important to explain that the transgender women will have 1.00

01:24:24.840 the same levels of testosterone but there are sociological reasons why trans women uh would rather 0.99

01:24:33.440 starve themselves to look like models than to put on muscle to to be athletes and so this is the

01:24:40.460 population that these studies are looking at and and you know um i did a review of these studies

01:24:46.980 among other people here at loughborough university and and there's some useful data that can be gathered

01:24:52.720 from these studies but it's very very important to understand that that these are studies of

01:24:58.880 non-athletes and have very limited uh things to say about athletes one thing i will mention

01:25:06.940 uh and i absolutely agree with greg that um that that given the reductions involved it is going to be

01:25:15.960 absolutely true that trans women will have strength advantages over cis women even after hormone 0.70

01:25:23.640 therapy uh another reviewer of these studies uh hilton and lundberg suggested that uh that trans women 1.00

01:25:31.680 had a 17 percent grip strength advantage uh even after hormone therapy uh which sounds impressive

01:25:38.560 until you compare it to the 57 percent grip strength advantage that cis men have over cis women

01:25:44.400 so it's less than a third of the the strength advantage remains

01:25:49.160 what about that greg i mean that's pretty honest she's she's saying yes there there would be some

01:25:55.360 advantages notwithstanding hormone therapy and so on but i think the next piece of that argument so far as

01:26:01.560 i've read is life is full of unfairness not everything can be perfectly equal right like i was saying with

01:26:07.600 our girls earlier you know if you have two parents who are super tall you're going to have longer legs 1.00

01:26:12.400 you probably do better on you know the long jump who knows but you can't ever shoot for complete

01:26:18.600 perfection when it comes to equality on the on the playing field well you know that's that is a very

01:26:24.060 true statement but if we look at the difference between say a gold medal and a silver medal which is a lot of

01:26:31.160 times around 0.5 to 0.6 percent difference in performance if we look at the difference between

01:26:38.200 a silver medal and a bronze medal again it's 0.6 percent difference the difference between a gold

01:26:44.040 medal and no medal is typically less than two percent and so if we take a male individual with a 10 to 60

01:26:53.000 percent advantage over a female that i think most of us would say that that's unfair because they are male 0.96

01:26:58.920 if we take a male to female transgender individual and reduce their performance a little bit and they 1.00

01:27:07.180 still have as joanna said a 17 percent advantage i'd say we still say that's an unfair advantage compared

01:27:14.940 to what we would normally expect as far as competitive performance in sports go ahead joanna so grip

01:27:22.140 strength is only one aspect of uh athletic performance and there was a very interesting

01:27:28.320 study that came out of the u.s air force last year um where they looked at uh both uh they looked at

01:27:37.220 three fitness tests on uh transgender individuals uh one minute sit-ups one minute push-ups uh were two of

01:27:46.260 these tests and and these are very interesting tests because both of these tests rely partially

01:27:53.400 on strength partially on muscular endurance partially on technique partially on cardiovascular endurance

01:28:00.840 and in many ways i think that these tests are a proxy for the team sports where strength is part of the

01:28:07.780 equation but not the entire equation and and this air force study found that after two years of

01:28:13.980 hormone therapy the trans women lost their entire advantage in push-ups in one minute despite the fact 1.00

01:28:21.240 that other studies would show that trans women maintain strength advantages so in these more complex 0.99

01:28:28.260 uh activities like push-ups per minute and and perhaps many team sports it's entirely possible

01:28:36.740 that the advantage goes away despite the fact that the strength advantage doesn't go away

01:28:43.980 hmm let me ask you this um just and and you may know these studies but just as a quick search

01:28:51.260 suggested that uh in 2019 the journal of clinical clinical endocrinology it studied it was only 11 but it was

01:28:59.720 11 transgender women found that after a year of undergoing testosterone suppression

01:29:04.520 they experienced only a negligible decrease in strength of their thigh muscles only a five percent loss

01:29:11.800 of muscle mass then in 2020 sports medicine study found that strength lean body mass muscle size and bone density

01:29:19.080 are only trivially affected by testosterone suppression suggesting that you know a lot of these other advantages

01:29:29.100 don't go away just with you know by by suppressing testosterone

01:29:34.220 so the the 2019 study was a swedish study um and and as you say it is only 11 people um the the 2020 is probably

01:29:46.540 the review of hilton and lundberg that you're talking about uh and again these are all non-athletes uh and um so

01:29:56.940 we would never take data from studies of non-athletes of cisgender people to say anything about cisgender athletes

01:30:08.460 um i do acknowledge that that given the numbers there is definitely going to be a residual strength advantage

01:30:17.020 for uh trans women but but as the air force study showed that may not carry through to more complex 0.90

01:30:26.300 uh sports where strength is only part of the equation well if i may a couple of things there the

01:30:32.880 study you're talking about from sweden that's anna wick's paper

01:30:36.680 uh where they were using a very sophisticated technique to measure muscle strength

01:30:42.840 uh it's an isokinetic dynamometer which is very precise for measuring strength and so

01:30:47.660 that is a technique that is frequently used in athletes and in athletics to determine if there are muscle imbalances and things like that

01:30:55.000 um and so that's a that's a very good technique also in the paper with the air force individuals the authors acknowledge

01:31:02.760 that perhaps the transgender individuals reduced their training to meet their perception of what they should be

01:31:12.200 as a female and to minimize their male illness and so that could also partially account for why they reduced 0.99

01:31:19.580 their push-up sit-up performance oh that's fascinating that gosh it's like it's like covid where to turn

01:31:27.380 the actual scientific answers to figure this out i mean i think look anecdotally just talking to the two girls

01:31:33.580 you know sweet young girls who who had lost to the two trans female athletes in virtually every single race

01:31:40.280 and the only race where they didn't lose it was a false start by the trans um girls i think they would say 0.89

01:31:47.920 anecdotally it's impossible right like they they they couldn't do it and if you just look at the natural

01:31:53.220 advantages that cis boys have over cis girls to suggest it just goes away because of a year of home 0.94

01:31:59.120 hormone therapy hasn't been their experience at all right so like this is what you're up against joanna

01:32:04.720 right like there's like an anecdotal belief and it may be scientifically backed uh even you say to some

01:32:10.640 extent it it probably is that it isn't fair that you're that sort of cis girls are being kind of

01:32:18.300 screwed over in an effort to be overly accommodating to trans girls and we must we should instead be

01:32:24.660 looking for a different solution that is more fair to both groups what do you make of that well again in

01:32:32.200 connecticut they weren't required to to uh uh to undergo hormone therapy i have non-published data as

01:32:40.420 of yet from three uh sprinters that suggest the entire speed advantage for for sprinters does go away

01:32:48.820 um so um uh you know i i would say under different rules it would be far fairer the ncaa rules for

01:32:59.060 instance and and i would also suggest that um that uh four of the five girls involved with this lawsuit 1.00

01:33:07.540 two of the trans two of the cisgender girls and both transgender girls have already graduated high

01:33:14.140 school both cisgender girls were awarded athletic scholarships one to william and mary which is a

01:33:20.400 terrific school and neither of the transgender girls were awarded athletic scholarships so we know if

01:33:26.760 they tried for them um i i don't know for sure but i i do know that they were not tendered any offers

01:33:34.960 and and so um certainly we don't know the reasons though because we don't we don't know the grades you

01:33:41.600 know what i mean like that i see your point i take your point but i we need more information to figure

01:33:46.360 out why that happened like what were the relative grades of the two trans girls and the grades of the 0.98

01:33:50.580 cis girls and and did what did the trans girls do to try to you know be recruited and get attention and 1.00

01:33:56.980 did they want to go to you know certain colleges or not you know you never know um that those those

01:34:03.000 still need to be answered but i i do think it's interesting so so this is you're confirming then

01:34:08.360 because you're familiar with the case that the trans girls in the connecticut cases hadn't done

01:34:12.400 hormone therapy they just it was a social transition um no i do not have the medical records of the trans

01:34:21.500 girls and and i have uh some suppositions and i have some inside information but that's not the same

01:34:28.500 as as their medical records and so let me put it to you this way no copy got it point taken but

01:34:35.220 you are saying that if it's just a social transition at that age in the in the high school because that's

01:34:40.980 obviously where puberty happens late middle school high school um if it's just a social transition

01:34:46.320 there's no question that there's an unfair advantage by the the trans girls over the cis girls 0.99

01:34:50.420 again with accomplished athletes you know if we're talking about people who are

01:34:55.400 more testosterone won't make non-athletes into athletes but it will make athletes better

01:35:01.640 and so in this case where both of these trans girls were athletes yes i would suggest that uh it was

01:35:10.440 unfair competition so let's talk about the um the more uh my the more advanced level of sports right

01:35:18.620 like you accurately point out the ncaa the ioc they're allowing trans again it's usually trans

01:35:25.900 girls or trans women competing against cis women that creates the problem because the truth is trans 0.99

01:35:31.900 boys trans men haven't typically been able to compete against uh cis men effectively

01:35:39.980 so what what do you do you think let me start with with you on this um greg do you think it's fair

01:35:46.780 at the college and the ioc level to i think it's one year right one year of hormone therapy that they

01:35:53.360 have to be on to show that they've suppressed the testosterone to the level of you know a cis woman 0.99

01:35:59.420 right so do you think that's fair well i would say at this point no it's not because the research that

01:36:07.480 we have in and as joanna has stated these are not athletes but the information that we have both on

01:36:14.780 cisgender men compared to cisgender women and in these transgender individuals if we look at grip 0.97

01:36:21.360 strength these transgender individuals yes they're in the 20th percentile of strength compared to other 0.96

01:36:27.380 men meaning 80 percent of men are stronger than them but they are stronger than 95 percent of comparably

01:36:34.340 aged women right so that's the real question it's not really how they fare against cis men it's how

01:36:39.920 they fare against cis women you know women who are born female and identify as female their whole lives

01:36:45.360 how do they fare against them yeah yeah and so you know if we take that data and try and compare

01:36:51.420 apples to apples as much as possible it could be extrapolated that a trained male is going to 0.63

01:36:58.920 outperform a trained female even with testosterone suppression and again acknowledging that this is

01:37:05.220 taking from non-athletes and extrapolating with athletes but if we are going to use that as our only

01:37:10.260 standard of judgment we need to re-evaluate all of our rules that ban performance-intensive

01:37:16.060 substances because most of those have not been tested in competitive athletes hmm what about that

01:37:23.200 joanna we try so much to prevent you know doping in sports or at least on paper we say we do um

01:37:30.220 and because there is an understanding that levels of testosterone and so on could provide an athlete

01:37:35.760 with an unfair advantage that we need to cautiously guard against and yet you know it's it's the standards

01:37:42.500 seem to slide a bit when it comes to this issue so um virtually all international sports federations

01:37:51.180 require trans women to maintain uh female levels of testosterone for at least one year prior to 0.97

01:37:59.400 hormone therapy and um so so in terms of current testosterone levels there are no advantages for

01:38:09.740 trans women over cis women uh when it comes to international sports there are absolutely legacy effects

01:38:18.520 um but i would suggest that perhaps the best way to look at this is is by population studies and the

01:38:26.940 ncaa is a great example um 10 years ago they allowed trans women to compete uh against cis women based off one 0.99

01:38:37.060 year of hormone therapy and and that's no requirement for a specific testosterone level and so it's a

01:38:42.920 weaker rule than the international rule but but every year there are more than 200 000 women competing 1.00

01:38:49.680 in ncaa sports given the size of the the trans population approximately one percent we should be 0.94

01:38:57.360 seeing over a thousand maybe two thousand trans women competing every year in ncaa sports if they were 1.00

01:39:05.060 equally represented and yet the number of trans women competing in ncaa sports is is extremely small

01:39:12.360 we don't know precisely but it's probably fewer than 50 uh so 10 years two generations of collegiate

01:39:20.720 athletes have come and gone with this rule in place trans women are in no way taking over trans women are

01:39:28.660 hugely underrepresented in ncaa sports 10 years later greg you know i i don't know the numbers but i dare

01:39:39.400 say that if we go to the 2019 division two 400 meter national outdoor hurdles championship for women

01:39:46.340 there are probably eight women that would feel that they lost to a transgender athlete and that was very 1.00

01:39:54.960 meaningful to those eight women cisgender women and so again we come back to the idea is it fair

01:40:01.840 fair for all or only fair if it displaces a certain number of the population you know you think about

01:40:09.440 the natural event i'm thinking about somebody and i know joanna you were a competitive runner you think

01:40:15.120 about somebody like hussein bolt right i'm trying to pick somebody who you just you can get the image

01:40:19.880 in your head like super strong amazing world-class athlete and if hussein bolt said i'm trans

01:40:26.780 and i want to compete with the women and started taking um you know hormones cross-gender hormones 1.00

01:40:35.300 for a year and got his testosterone down to the appropriate level he would crush right like you

01:40:41.980 you don't dispute that way you'd kill everybody right so like that's the most extreme case that

01:40:46.600 i do you do that yes absolutely well because again i have data from transgender sprinters maybe not

01:40:54.480 quite as good as ussein bolt that they do lose 10 percent of their speed and so um if we took ussein

01:41:02.460 bolt and made him 10 slower he would not be the women's world record holder in the 100 meter dash 0.89

01:41:11.780 his time his world record is very slightly less than 10 percent uh faster than the women's world record

01:41:20.780 and so yes i absolutely say uh you know let's do this as a thought experiment and and if ussein

01:41:28.120 bolt were to do this he would not would not and i absolutely stand by this 100 percent would not

01:41:34.900 beat the women's world record in the 100 meter dash all right wait let me ask you a follow-up then

01:41:39.860 this is kind of a fun experiment because it gives you a visual right as opposed to just like this

01:41:44.040 untouchable image um let's say the rock right dwayne johnson decides to do weight lifting but

01:41:51.940 instead of being a great actor he decides to be a weight lifter and he's made amazing strides and

01:41:56.980 he's won all sorts of titles and then he does the same thing and wants to go over as a trans

01:42:01.200 female weight lifter against all the women the cis women who have been doing all along after a year 0.73

01:42:07.420 of hormone therapy he gets his testosterone levels down so this is a different skill right this is

01:42:12.800 strength and lifting and so on you're saying he wouldn't crush the female weight lifters well uh

01:42:19.680 let's let's call this person roxy um and uh so roxy um would be a lot bigger and so we have weight 1.00

01:42:30.800 categories in in uh sports like strength and so it probably wouldn't be right because roxy would be 1.00

01:42:38.760 way too big uh and so we would need to create a super extra heavy large super weight category and

01:42:47.600 there probably wouldn't be any cis women who would be big enough for that category isn't this happening 0.96

01:42:53.740 wait is joanne is this happening right now isn't didn't we just see this on an international in the

01:42:58.000 in the olympic competition um not yet but we probably will in tokyo um there is a weight lifter uh a new

01:43:08.500 zealand uh trans woman named laurel hubbard uh the the new zealand uh olympic team has not yet been

01:43:16.040 named but she will probably be named uh to the team um she was sixth in the world championship in 2019

01:43:25.060 her most recent uh high level international competition uh because of the olympic rules

01:43:30.840 that limits countries to to one per per country she has a a chance of of perhaps finishing higher than

01:43:38.520 sixth in in the olympics she has an outside shot of the medal so she's not gonna win but she's

01:43:45.400 competing right now as a as a trans woman as a woman in new zealand well okay and but she's

01:43:51.680 but she hasn't she doesn't win every time she loses to cis women yeah absolutely as i said she

01:43:58.320 was sixth in the 2019 world championships um that's that's a very good placing sixth in the world

01:44:05.760 how many athletes get to be sixth in the world uh and and and just to be clear she held a new zealand

01:44:13.540 record for 15 years but she was never sixth in the world among men and and so yeah i absolutely

01:44:20.260 acknowledge that she does better in women's weight lifting than she ever did in men's weight lifting

01:44:26.340 but she's not gonna win in the olympics um she's unlikely to medal she's got no such shot at it 0.99

01:44:34.460 but but she's she's not gonna win she's gonna do well uh you know again how many people make the olympics 0.99

01:44:41.360 and and so um does she have a strength advantage because of her former life yes is it an overwhelming

01:44:48.400 advantage no what do you make of that greg well i think one thing we need to consider here is that

01:44:54.600 laurel hubbard is 43 years old and to be sixth in the world in weight lifting at age 43 is unheard of

01:45:02.000 that's pretty good yeah yeah that's incredible if we go back and look at the olympics in 2016 2012

01:45:08.680 the oldest weight lifters were 34 36 years old and that's both men and women and so i think this

01:45:16.900 demonstrates again these legacy effects of being a man that laurel hubbard is experiencing and

01:45:26.200 benefiting from when competing against cisgender women what's the story because i i heard you greg on

01:45:31.420 another podcast and you mentioned the case of cc telfer what's that case so that is the um 2019

01:45:38.580 division two 400 meter hurdle that i was talking about and so cc telfer competed for two years at

01:45:45.260 franklin pierce university as a male as craig telfer and was 200 300 as far as national ranking

01:45:54.220 still pretty good still way faster than i could ever be and a very good athlete but then craig telfer

01:46:02.280 identified as female took the year off for the transitioning the hormone therapy came back as cc telfer

01:46:08.680 and then won the 400 meter hurdles at the national championship and so you know that's kind of

01:46:16.580 unheard of for an athlete to go from 200 300 to first place and and because cc then is running as a

01:46:26.200 female you know again this is just based on the times and what we know i don't know what cc's

01:46:32.520 transition was as far as all the details was in compliance with nc2a policy

01:46:38.680 yeah i see i see your point can i shift gears and ask you joanna so um are you comfortable talking

01:46:45.140 about um your your transition and being a competitive runner and how that affected you like what what your

01:46:51.480 experience was there yeah sure um so i started hormone therapy in uh 2004 um you know i i knew that

01:47:01.680 when i reduced my testosterone i'd be slower but i you know i thought it'd be sort of a gradual thing

01:47:07.100 and and that maybe over a 10 kilometer race i'd lose a minute or two um how old were you at this

01:47:13.720 point i was 46 um and and just by the way you've now outed my current age but um apologies

01:47:24.280 math friendly but anyway um i was 46 at the time and um uh so i i i thought i'd get you know a little

01:47:35.560 slower and but it would take a while but within weeks i was noticeably slower within nine months i

01:47:42.480 was running uh 12 slower and that's the difference between serious male athletes and serious uh female

01:47:48.840 sorry serious male distance runners and serious uh female distance runners so i had lost that complete

01:47:55.540 um male advantage uh within nine months and we've been talking a lot about strength but the the most

01:48:03.320 recent review from from those of us at loughborough uh showed that in study after study trans women go 1.00

01:48:11.100 from male levels of hemoglobin to female levels of hemoglobin within three to four months of starting

01:48:18.740 hormone therapy so that's a complete change there's no legacy effect uh and hemoglobin values are one of

01:48:27.560 the most important values in endurance sports not just distance running but but all endurance sports

01:48:33.360 and that's why i noticed this difference so quickly was was that my hemoglobin levels changed

01:48:40.220 very very quickly uh as do all trans women and there's there's no legacy effect there but but as an 0.91

01:48:48.240 individual as a scientist i i was uh a medical physicist at the time working in health care in the u.s

01:48:54.420 you know i was intrigued and so this led me down this path to become a researcher into trans athletes

01:49:01.720 because of my own personal experience so you lived 46 years identifying as male

01:49:10.220 i mean or at least having been designated male at birth and and appearing as a male forgive me for

01:49:15.600 not having the right language on that yes um i i certainly i i knew that i was a girl uh this

01:49:23.160 probably the same age that you knew you were a girl megan but i i hid it for years and years and

01:49:28.280 years and was extraordinarily unhappy uh because of it but um you know i i wanted a lot of things that

01:49:36.480 that trans people couldn't have when when i was young uh you know trans uh people could not be 1.00

01:49:42.900 openly trans and and you know go go to university and and become a medical physicist you know that

01:49:48.980 that was something that that you know i i couldn't dream of uh so you know i i hid who i was for most of

01:49:55.260 my life and and was you know sad about it but um uh you know finally i i i did uh decide that that i

01:50:04.580 need to make changes i mean good for you because that must have taken a lot of guts at 46 to come

01:50:10.320 out and say like it's it's not as you thought it was and i got a story to tell you especially at a

01:50:16.180 time when even even 10 years ago there was a much bigger stigma on on people who are trans than there

01:50:22.920 is today and that's a good thing you know i don't want anybody to mistake debates like this for

01:50:26.840 some wanting us to go back there right it's just everyone's trying to wrestle with

01:50:32.120 what does this mean right now that we're being more open which is good and accepting of people

01:50:37.140 who are trans what does it mean for the way we've been living and uh let me ask you another question

01:50:43.240 joanna because somebody um there is a an openly gay um progressive uh woman named katie herzog who

01:50:50.660 was on our show not long ago who had a great line about the trans activists saying get better people

01:50:56.740 right like she's not anti-trans she just doesn't want to be harassed by these anti-trans activists 0.98

01:51:02.640 who are so loud and so bullying people just shut down what are your thoughts on like how how sort of

01:51:09.320 i don't know antagonistic some of the trans spokespeople who i really believe do not actually

01:51:15.680 speak for the for the trans community writ large are in their approach you know i i would certainly say

01:51:22.220 it's extremely unfortunate that we have um you know we have people who are on both sides of of this

01:51:31.280 chasm where where um you know they're they're as you say there are trans activists there are some uh

01:51:38.820 there are some people who are um masquerading as caring about women's sports when they are are in fact

01:51:45.560 anti-lgbt people uh and and these two groups are standing on the opposite sides of a ravine and are

01:51:54.020 screaming at each other often on twitter and and it's not productive at all and and i would blame both

01:52:00.580 sides equally for um you know for this lack of productive uh discussion you know greg and i here we

01:52:09.740 clearly disagree but but we are engaging in civil discourse uh and and i would think that this is the

01:52:17.560 way that it it should be done with with people talking rationally and reasonably but unfortunately

01:52:24.340 in this argument it's not and as i say i blame people on both sides yes oh amen to what you just said

01:52:33.040 i mean that's one of our mission statements here at the show is to try to have open honest

01:52:39.500 and i say provocative conversations my little seven-year-old says evocative he doesn't he's

01:52:45.520 totally he's misunderstood but that's one of the whole purposes of our show's existence is to try

01:52:50.860 to have these conversations without yelling at each other and demonizing one another and so on

01:52:54.360 i mean what do you think greg do you think that she's right that there's a there's a faction opposing

01:53:01.440 trans athletes in sports in the way we've been discussing because it's it's sort of cover for 0.68

01:53:08.400 transphobia you know i don't know if i could speak on that the individuals that i know to my

01:53:15.860 best knowledge are not transphobic they think everybody should be loved respected cared for

01:53:22.040 they just have a difference of opinion and as joanna and i are showing this is the way it should

01:53:26.760 happen we can have a difference of opinion we can be respectful and we can even look at the same

01:53:31.600 science and come up with a different interpretation of that science but we can do it calmly and rationally

01:53:37.140 i think that is important that we are able to have these good conversations and you know look at

01:53:42.520 what are the facts and separate the facts from the hyperbole i guess so let me let me end it with this

01:53:51.140 is there is there any solution to this conflict um that other than the status quo right because

01:54:02.760 the states are split they're all over the board some states are banning trans athletes from running

01:54:07.540 in the um you know the as the gender that they identify with some states are mandating that it be

01:54:14.820 allowed i mean it's all over the place and eventually i think the supreme court will rule but

01:54:18.480 you know let's take the martin and never to roll a group's suggestion of you know like let's sit down

01:54:24.540 and talk as grownups is there a way of creating another league for trans people it seems to me as

01:54:31.080 a lay person commentator that there wouldn't be enough um is there a way of letting them run

01:54:38.480 with the gender with which they identify but still keeping it more fair for the you know cisgendered girls

01:54:46.580 um i'll start with you on that greg you know that is perhaps a possibility that maybe there's

01:54:52.700 in individual sports separate scoring of some way so transgenders are able to run with the gender they

01:55:00.480 identify with but their score is separate from the boys and separate from the girls and there's the

01:55:06.960 third category but that probably wouldn't work when we look at team sports basketball football even

01:55:14.420 wrestling you know that then gets to be a real challenge and i honestly don't know what the answer

01:55:20.480 to that would be i guess we need to hope that calm heads can prevail in school boards and in politics

01:55:27.520 and then come up with a reasonable solution as they consider the information that's brought to them

01:55:33.060 what about you joanna what would you say to somebody um like our our guest today chelsea um

01:55:40.700 chelsea mitchell who said she she'd been winning everything she she she had 20 conference

01:55:46.500 championship she had a perfect record over four years and it wasn't until two trans girls 1.00

01:55:52.880 started racing against her that she started to lose and she lost repeatedly and she said she knew

01:56:00.580 she knew she was the fastest girl in the race one of the fastest in the state but suddenly losses came

01:56:06.640 where they had never been to two girls who were trans um i i certainly think it's unfortunate that as i said

01:56:14.680 you know if i were queen of connecticut those would not be the rules that that would be in play

01:56:19.720 um but chelsea is is the girl i mentioned earlier who's now at william and mary and she is losing 1.00

01:56:26.040 regularly uh and so you know i i think it's unfortunate that chelsea didn't win more state championships i i i

01:56:33.680 think she deserved it um uh and i'm sorry that it happened and as i say if i were queen of connecticut

01:56:41.840 it wouldn't have happened um but uh you know she is moving on with her life she's she's at university

01:56:49.760 she's uh competing in in uh collegiate athletics uh but there's other chelsea's coming up behind her 1.00

01:56:56.720 that's what she would say that she's they're saying they're filing a lawsuit not just for themselves but

01:57:00.680 because there's going to be more and more of this as you know the the the case in connecticut was

01:57:07.060 was certainly somewhat of an outlier uh you know california has the same rules as connecticut and

01:57:14.460 uh 10 times the population and we haven't seen any cases in in california uh and so um you know

01:57:24.440 it did happen in connecticut and it could potentially happen otherwise but but um for a

01:57:32.260 number of reasons i i think that this is going to be a very small percentage of the time that that we

01:57:38.620 will see this there was um there was a trans girl in a neighboring state who again competed in track and

01:57:45.940 field she identified as trans but was not on hormone therapy and she decided to continue competing with 0.79

01:57:52.740 the boys because she thought that that was fair and so um you know that this idea that that we're

01:58:02.200 going to see this all the time it is just not going to happen and do you think is just i'd love to get

01:58:10.100 you to weigh in on the notion of us a third category you know like as greg said greg and i actually agree

01:58:19.460 on something here um but but perhaps in individual sports we could do that but it's not going to work

01:58:26.020 in team sports you know you have if you have three categories you've got 49 and a half percent of the

01:58:33.060 people in one category 49 and a half percent of the people in the other category and one percent of the

01:58:39.140 people in this third category and so there's there's just not the numbers for team sports maybe in

01:58:45.300 individual sports i'm so glad you guys came on and gave us this discussion thank you so much i'm i'm

01:58:53.720 very grateful to you both well megan thank you for the invitation i appreciate this opportunity this

01:58:58.800 has been wonderful it's nice to talk to you and nice to talk to joanna and and i feel the same way

01:59:03.140 greg i i enjoyed talking with you and thank you very much for inviting me here megan absolutely i hope

01:59:08.660 we get to do it again all the best to you all right so don't forget to go to apple reviews and

01:59:16.440 tell me what you thought of that debate loved it personally okay i'm i'm tainting the jury but you

01:59:20.940 guys will figure it out go there and let me know uh do not miss our next show on friday because we

01:59:25.900 have comedian ryan long i did not know ryan long until i started to see some of his more recent videos

01:59:32.260 and i was like okay whoever this is i'm in love with him i really need to know him more and can we

01:59:36.980 please book him because every time i see one of his bits i laugh out loud you're gonna know who

01:59:41.580 this is if you don't already um he did the one where it's like the guy who's supposed to be woke

01:59:47.120 versus the guy who's supposed to be racist and how their their language is identical they agree on

01:59:52.940 virtually everything totally clever um and then he did that one we played a clip of it of the modern

01:59:58.500 therapist basically telling all these young people that they're not to blame for anything it's really

02:00:03.280 the world that needs to change and that you know their their lack of drive and uh willingness

02:00:08.400 to work hard is not to be blamed on them it's really somebody else's fault there's a million

02:00:13.800 he's got like a 4.5 million views on how to break a man he's got 4.2 million views on the woke versus

02:00:23.180 racist thing on how the the woke and the racist agree with on everything and on and on it goes so

02:00:28.620 super popular you're gonna love him you're gonna laugh let's have a good time it's gonna be friday

02:00:32.960 see you then thanks for listening to the megan kelly show no bs no agenda and no fear

02:00:40.520 the megan kelly show is a devil may care media production in collaboration with red seat ventures

02:00:46.500 you

The Megyn Kelly Show - May 12, 2021

The Trans Athletes Debate, From All Angles： High School Girls Suing, Medical Experts, and More ｜ Ep. 101

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