The Megyn Kelly Show - July 31, 2026


The Trials of Claus von Bülow: Science on Trial — Ep. 4 | MK Confidential


Episode Stats


Length

26 minutes

Words per minute

149.19

Word count

4,017

Sentence count

259

Harmful content

Misogyny

5

sentences flagged


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
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00:01:00.000 It is the spring of 1985.
00:01:04.020 In a hospital bed in New York,
00:01:05.820 a woman named Sunny Von Bulow has been unconscious
00:01:08.720 for more than four years,
00:01:11.000 and she is never going to wake up.
00:01:13.480 90 miles away in Rhode Island,
00:01:15.520 the man a jury once said put her in that coma
00:01:18.620 is preparing to stand trial for a second time.
00:01:21.980 Sunny's children speak as she cannot.
00:01:25.600 She's serving a life sentence.
00:01:27.720 She'll never open her eyes again or recognize anybody.
00:01:31.460 She'll never talk to her children.
00:01:32.980 She'll never see her grandchildren.
00:01:35.140 Three years ago, a Rhode Island jury found Klaus von Bülow guilty of trying to murder his wife.
00:01:41.600 A year ago, a higher court threw out that verdict.
00:01:45.000 Klaus, now free on bail, his first conviction erased, wants one thing and says so to anyone with a camera.
00:01:54.040 Here he talks to Kiro Eyewitness News.
00:01:57.180 I admit to great fatigue and suffering during the last three years,
00:02:01.540 and there are moments when I just wish it would go away.
00:02:04.440 So there's a dichotomy, but I want to get exonerated.
00:02:10.720 Exonerated is the word he keeps using.
00:02:13.540 Not released on a technicality, but rather cleared by a jury out loud.
00:02:19.300 Now Klaus is back where he started, facing the same two counts of attempted murder.
00:02:24.280 but with a new direction for the defense courtesy of the Dershowitz team in a new courthouse in
00:02:30.700 Providence with a jury that has never heard the case. If this jury convicts the appeal that freed
00:02:37.500 him will have bought him nothing and he will likely spend the rest of his life in prison.
00:02:42.720 This time the defense will not just argue that the state cannot prove its case but that there
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00:04:09.820 For the retrial, Klaus von Bülow has a new lead lawyer, and he is nothing like the elegant
00:04:16.900 defendant he represents. His name is Thomas Puccio. He made his reputation as a federal
00:04:23.200 prosecutor who ran the FBI sting operation Abscam, in which agents posed as wealthy Arab
00:04:29.340 businessmen to expose political corruption and put multiple congressmen in prison.
00:04:34.340 He is not a society lawyer. He is blunt and combative, a street fighter. Puccio takes over
00:04:42.720 the courtroom and Alan Dershowitz, who won the appeal, moves into the background. Puccio's plan
00:04:49.000 is the opposite of the first trial, the one that had been about money, a mistress, and an oceanfront
00:04:56.200 mansion. Puccio strips all of it away and tries the case as a single question of medicine. What
00:05:04.360 actually put Sonny von Bülow into a coma? And as before, Klaus von Bülow will not take the stand.
00:05:13.180 But moving into the background is not the same as stepping away. Years later, Dershowitz would
00:05:18.760 describe just how much of the second trial ran on the work he and his students had already done.
00:05:26.200 The whole retrial was based on our work.
00:05:29.460 In fact, my two main research assistants from the law school, Joanne Crispy and a guy from the medical school,
00:05:37.720 they sat with the trial lawyer and fed him all the information.
00:05:42.140 So I was very centrally involved in the trial.
00:05:45.480 I spoke to the legal team every single day.
00:05:49.020 And out of the courtroom, another figure is fighting for Klaus von Bülow and fighting the loudest.
00:05:55.060 Her name is Andrea Reynolds. She's Hungarian-born and glamorous, and still married to her television
00:06:02.680 producer husband. Andrea has known Klaus and Sonny socially for years, but she and Klaus did not
00:06:08.660 become lovers until after his first trial had ended. That timing matters. The mistress the
00:06:15.380 state built its motive around at the first trial was a different woman, the actress Alexandra
00:06:20.440 Isles. Reynolds entered the story only afterward, so the companion the cameras now catch at Klaus's
00:06:28.000 side was never part of the love and money case Rhode Island prosecutors once put to a jury.
00:06:33.840 Andrea Reynolds does not do subtle. She courts the reporters covering the case, dines with them, 1.00
00:06:40.460 drives them around, and calls their editors when the coverage displeases her. Barred from the 0.98
00:06:45.800 courtroom, she watches the live feed from inside the CNN truck and slowly takes over the booth 0.78
00:06:51.380 until the network finally asks her to leave. It is Reynolds who decides Klaus needs a warmer face
00:06:58.820 for the retrial, that the cold, aristocratic figure the first jury saw was half the reason
00:07:04.600 they convicted him. She runs the campaign to clear his name like a military operation. 0.99
00:07:10.840 Andrea's own husband, watching all of it from the outside, offers the driest verdict of the whole affair.
00:07:17.680 If Klaus has to marry Andrea, he will wish he had been convicted.
00:07:22.260 On April 7th, von Bülow, his daughter Cosima, and his girlfriend Andrea Reynolds arrived at the Biltmore Hotel.
00:07:30.060 The next day, when von Bülow showed up at the courthouse for the first day of jury selection,
00:07:34.020 a small army of print and broadcast journalists from around the world
00:07:38.240 surrounded him as he made his way into the building.
00:07:41.400 It takes nine days just to seat a jury, eight women and four men, 0.92
00:07:46.400 and Judge Corinne Grand orders them sequestered,
00:07:50.300 kept together in a hotel, cut off from the outside for the length of the trial.
00:07:55.820 Before a word of testimony, they are loaded onto a bus
00:07:58.600 and driven to Newport, Rhode Island to walk through Clarendon Court itself.
00:08:03.340 the oceanfront mansion where both comas happened.
00:08:07.180 The press follows, filming the entire thing,
00:08:10.060 rising above the grounds in bucket trucks
00:08:12.140 while helicopters circle overhead.
00:08:15.620 And Klaus, who has not set foot in the house
00:08:18.820 in more than four years, steps onto the grounds,
00:08:22.600 sees the dogs he used to walk,
00:08:24.640 and for a moment, his composure breaks.
00:08:28.320 He weeps briefly, then he collects himself
00:08:32.060 and goes inside with the jury. To see what Puccio is up against, remember what convinced
00:08:38.380 the first jury. The state's medical case rested on a simple, powerful chain. When Sunny was
00:08:45.860 admitted for her comas, her blood sugar was dangerously low. And after her final coma,
00:08:52.000 the lab reported an enormous amount of insulin in her blood. Low sugar, high insulin, which the
00:08:59.200 state said could only mean insulin from outside her body, from a needle. To get there in the first
00:09:06.260 trial, the prosecution had called Dr. George Cahill of Harvard, the man other doctors called
00:09:11.840 the expert's expert on blood sugar. Cahill told the jury that only injected insulin could explain
00:09:18.880 what the lab found. Doctor, do you have an opinion based upon your review of the records
00:09:24.620 and based upon your experience and your training and based upon a reasonable degree of medical
00:09:29.100 certainty as to whether or not the insulin was endogenous or exogenous. Like all the data that
00:09:36.280 I've looked at, it would be exogenous. And when the defense suggested Sonny's barbiturates and
00:09:41.980 drinking might have caused a coma on their own, Cahill did not give an inch. Asked whether
00:09:48.620 barbiturates can cause a coma, he answered, they certainly can, but not with a blood sugar of 29,
00:09:53.940 sir. It was clean. It was confident. And the first time around, it helped produce a sentence
00:10:01.080 of 30 years in prison for Klaus von Bülow. Puccio's team goes after that chain one link at a time,
00:10:09.320 starting with the image everyone carried out of the first trial, the small black bag from
00:10:14.880 von Bülow's closet and the used needle inside. It looked like a murder weapon, but one of the
00:10:21.920 young lawyers Dershowitz recruited, a Harvard law graduate named Joanne Crispy, says the bag was
00:10:28.900 never really the heart of the case. Here she is with journalist Bill Curtis on American Justice.
00:10:35.620 Well, a lot of people, you know, outside the case, think of the encrusted needles in the black bag
00:10:42.840 or the black bag itself as the smoking gun. The black bag was not the smoking gun in this case.
00:10:48.940 The smoking gun in this case was the 216 insulin level in Sonny von Buehler's blood.
00:10:56.900 216. That's the number on which this entire case rests.
00:11:02.440 An insulin reading so high, the state's doctors said it could only mean insulin from outside her body, from a needle.
00:11:11.140 Hold on to that 216 number, though, because the defense will.
00:11:15.580 When Dershowitz, Crispy, and the team pulled the laboratory's own records,
00:11:19.840 they find something the first jury never heard.
00:11:23.460 The lab had run that same blood sample for insulin more than once
00:11:27.040 and had gotten wildly different answers.
00:11:30.580 One reading came back at 216.
00:11:32.620 Another came back at zero.
00:11:35.560 A third at 350.
00:11:37.800 One sample tested again and again three vastly different results.
00:11:44.020 To the defense, a number that cannot be reproduced is not evidence of anything
00:11:47.740 and should never have gone to a jury as the truth.
00:11:52.080 Then there is the needle itself, its tip encrusted with insulin.
00:11:57.720 The prosecution in trial one said that residue tied the weapon to the crime.
00:12:03.200 The defense now says the residue tells the opposite story.
00:12:07.180 Dershowitz would later illustrate the argument on television with a glass of soda.
00:12:12.400 We did it with a turkey skewer and a glass of milk, but you can do it with anything.
00:12:18.160 If you stick something in a liquid, like my finger in this glass of soda,
00:12:22.720 and you just let it dry, you see the liquid goes to the very tip and is encrusted in that way.
00:12:31.880 And that's the way the insulin was found on the needle in this case.
00:12:35.820 If, on the other hand, what you were to do was to take a needle and inject it,
00:12:40.460 The liquid would spread all throughout.
00:12:43.780 A needle pushed through skin wipes clean as it goes in, the defense argues.
00:12:49.320 A needle dipped in insulin and left dry collects it at the very tip.
00:12:55.240 To the defense, the incrustation is not proof the needle was used on Sunny.
00:13:01.160 It's a sign the needle was dipped, staged to look like a weapon.
00:13:06.200 And the team goes one step further.
00:13:08.700 They put the testing itself to the test.
00:13:11.960 Labs are just people.
00:13:14.000 And scientists are just people.
00:13:16.180 And people make mistakes all the time.
00:13:19.120 So we decided, first of all, to test the lab.
00:13:21.660 What we did is we sent them several needles.
00:13:25.800 One had insulin.
00:13:27.560 One had saline solution.
00:13:29.680 One had barbiturates.
00:13:31.200 One had combinations.
00:13:32.900 And we wanted to see what the test results would be.
00:13:35.720 And they came back.
00:13:36.960 And many of them came back saying insulin when there was no insulin.
00:13:41.940 So there were false positives.
00:13:43.920 Then the defense calls a witness who had testified for the prosecution the first time around,
00:13:49.140 Dr. Janice Galitis, the Newport physician who saved Sonny's life during her first coma back in 1979.
00:13:57.020 This time, Galitis tells the jury that in his own judgment,
00:14:01.440 that first coma was not caused by insulin at all,
00:14:04.740 but by Sonny's airway closing and her aspirating while unconscious.
00:14:10.140 And the doctor testifies to something even more damaging,
00:14:13.520 that before the first trial, he had given the prosecutors that very opinion
00:14:18.160 and that they told him not to volunteer it on the stand.
00:14:22.900 If even one of Sonny's two comas was not an insulin injection,
00:14:27.620 the state's elegant chain begins to come apart.
00:14:31.420 This second jury also never hears the prosecution's clearest motive.
00:14:37.100 At the first trial, the state told a story of love and money.
00:14:41.620 First and foremost, a mistress pressing Klaus to marry her.
00:14:45.680 More on that in a minute.
00:14:47.420 Klaus's other alleged motive, the roughly $14 million, equivalent to about 48 million bucks today,
00:14:55.300 He stood to inherit under Sonny's will versus what he would get if he divorced her.
00:15:01.540 This time, Judge Grand bars the family's banker, Morris Gurley, from telling the jury about the money at all.
00:15:08.280 Her ruling is narrow, and at the time, it is one of the most criticized decisions of the trial.
00:15:14.500 Grand finds there is no foundation connecting financial gain to the specific acts the state alleges.
00:15:21.280 that, in her words, there is not a suggestion anywhere
00:15:24.660 that financial gain drove the defendant to do what the state says he did.
00:15:29.620 To let a jury hear the $14 million anyway, she reasons,
00:15:33.800 would invite them to convict on a motive rather than on evidence.
00:15:38.640 And because Klaus again does not testify,
00:15:41.840 the prosecution never gets another opportunity
00:15:43.960 to introduce the inheritance evidence in rebuttal.
00:15:47.740 The motive that anchored the whole first trial, the idea that Sonny's fortune gave Klaus a reason to want her dead, is a story this second jury simply never hears.
00:16:01.120 And now the jury hears about the Q notes.
00:16:04.000 In our last episode, Alan Dershowitz pried loose the interview notes that the family's own lawyer, the former Manhattan prosecutor Richard Q, had kept from the defense for years by claiming they were privileged.
00:16:17.360 At this trial, those notes finally come out in open court.
00:16:21.780 The defense argues that in the earliest interviews taken within days of Sonny's coma, the insulin that would become the center of this entire case went unmentioned.
00:16:32.800 And that the account changed over time, hardening into the version eventually presented to the first jury.
00:16:41.580 Q has always answered that omission means nothing, that he simply did not write down everything he was told.
00:16:48.520 This jury gets to weigh both.
00:16:51.300 To Dershowitz, the notes were the entire case.
00:16:55.020 The notes proved that there was no insulin and that there never was insulin.
00:16:59.540 And look, I don't...
00:17:01.580 How?
00:17:01.940 They had descriptions of what was found every time the maid looked into the little case, and there was no mention of anything even resembling insulin.
00:17:13.680 The prosecution's other pillar was the mistress, Alexandra Isles, the soap opera actress the state had cast as Von Bulo's reason to kill in the first trial.
00:17:23.620 She has fled the United States rather than face a second trial, purportedly to visit her mother in Ireland, telling a former lover of hers that she has no intention of returning to testify.
00:17:36.460 For most of the second trial, Sonny's children remain remote figures, staying out of sight.
00:17:42.440 But upon hearing this news, that their stepfather's former mistress is not coming back to testify, Alexander and Allah step forward in a blaze of publicity.
00:17:52.360 At a New York news conference, they appeal for Alexandra Isles to return and testify,
00:17:58.160 and they speak as they have all along for the mother who cannot speak for herself.
00:18:04.060 Klaus von Hulow, as a defender, is entitled to a fair trial.
00:18:08.540 But as a victim, so is our mother.
00:18:11.940 Our mother has been deprived, in effect, of her life.
00:18:15.700 Please don't let our mother be deprived of justice.
00:18:18.940 Alexandra Isles realizes that her greatest star turn is upon her.
00:18:24.320 She ends her months of European seclusion and returns to Rhode Island to take the stand against her former lover.
00:18:32.180 Even when Alexandra was starring on the TV show Dark Shadows, she never made such a dramatic entrance.
00:18:39.560 Demurely, yet firmly, she takes the stand at the second trial
00:18:43.700 and describes a 1980 phone call in which Klaus von Bülow confides in her
00:18:48.760 that he stood by and watched as his wife slipped deep into a coma.
00:18:54.780 He watched her, knowing that she was in a bad way all day,
00:19:01.380 and watched her and watched her, and finally,
00:19:04.940 when she was on the point of dying he said that he couldn't go through with it and he called and
00:19:12.620 saved her life. It is testimony that cuts both ways. In the same account Klaus watches his wife
00:19:19.860 sink toward death and does nothing and then at the last moment calls the help that saves Sunny's
00:19:26.420 life. The prosecution hears a near confession. The defense hears the opposite. A man who could
00:19:33.360 have a woman who tried to kill herself die and instead rescues her. But Puccio is not satisfied
00:19:41.800 with turning Alexandra's account into a rescue. On cross-examination, he turns it back on her.
00:19:49.220 Well, you're saying that you wrote a letter saying that you wanted a cocaine patient.
00:19:53.280 Can you not have been in love? I doubt it, but you do some crazy things.
00:19:58.480 Iles concedes that even after the first trial, she had written to Klaus asking to continue the relationship.
00:20:05.940 That's Puccio's point.
00:20:08.160 A woman who truly believed this man had tried to murder his wife would not have kept writing to him, wanting to be with him, asking him back.
00:20:16.960 After weeks of experts and lab reports and blood chemistry, the lawyers sum up.
00:20:22.460 Puccio zeroes in on the heart of the prosecution's case, the maid.
00:20:27.460 He turns the jury back to Maria Schralhammer, Sonny's devoted maid of 23 years and the state's star witness in both trials.
00:20:37.460 Puccio argues that if Maria had really seen what she later swore she saw, she would not have stayed quiet about it.
00:20:45.460 it. The prosecutor, Mark DeSisto, gives the jury the other picture, the one the state has believed
00:21:07.540 from the start. He loads his needle and syringe with insulin. He goes to his wife and you see
00:21:13.980 the intent. What's he thinking? And he finds the spot. And now he's pressing the plunger in.
00:21:20.140 And what is he thinking? As that insulin is released into her body, what is he thinking?
00:21:25.020 Can you see it? He's pressing the plunger down and the insulin is going in and it's releasing
00:21:30.120 all the tension. He's going to be with malaging proteins. He doesn't have to find a journal.
00:21:36.320 The case goes to the jury, and the waiting begins.
00:21:42.280 These 12 people have now been sequestered for roughly eight weeks,
00:21:46.520 kept together in a Providence Holiday Inn,
00:21:49.340 apart from husbands and wives and children, the entire time.
00:21:53.560 By now, the trial has disrupted not only their lives,
00:21:56.720 but the lives of the people waiting for them back at home.
00:21:59.200 We've been married 36 years,
00:22:01.220 and I don't think we've ever been separated in five days.
00:22:04.040 It's been a long while.
00:22:05.400 On June 10th, 1985, after roughly eight weeks of testimony and four days of deliberation,
00:22:13.260 the jury comes back into courtroom number eight in Providence, Rhode Island,
00:22:17.420 and the clerk reads the two charges.
00:22:20.900 Mr. Powell, we're on the charge of the defendant committed.
00:22:24.080 On December 27th, 1979, the crime of assault, contention, murder, body of crime, guilty or not guilty?
00:22:30.760 Not guilty.
00:22:31.400 Not guilty on both counts.
00:22:53.040 Andrea Reynolds, the woman who spent three years
00:22:55.280 fighting to free him, begins to cry.
00:22:58.620 Klaus von Bülow convicted three years earlier
00:23:01.360 and sentenced to 30 years in prison,
00:23:04.540 walks out of the courthouse a free man.
00:23:07.560 That evening, Klaus sits down with Newswatch 10
00:23:10.340 for his first interview since the acquittal.
00:23:13.180 When he is asked what he thinks actually happened to his wife,
00:23:17.000 his answer is not triumphant.
00:23:20.940 I don't know.
00:23:22.500 I know that I'm totally convinced by the medical picture.
00:23:27.100 I know I didn't do anything.
00:23:29.500 An acquittal is not the same as innocence.
00:23:34.060 A jury has found only that the state did not prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt.
00:23:38.980 It has not found that no one harmed Sonny von Bulow,
00:23:42.860 and it answers none of the questions at the center of this case.
00:23:46.840 Dennis Roberts, the Rhode Island attorney general who prosecuted the first trial,
00:23:51.500 makes this distinction.
00:23:53.460 It's important, I think, for our viewers to note that being found not guilty
00:23:58.300 because there is a reasonable doubt, is a long way from being found innocent.
00:24:03.360 The trial judge, Corinne Grand, will say privately that, in her view,
00:24:07.840 it was not even a close case, that Klaus simply did not try to kill Sonny.
00:24:13.460 Sonny's children see it the other way around.
00:24:16.280 The day of the verdict, they step up to a bank of microphones.
00:24:19.900 We are disappointed with the jury's verdict,
00:24:22.320 but we know that this jury was not permitted to hear all of the evidence
00:24:25.460 that was admitted at the first trial.
00:24:26.980 At the start of the second trial, the jury had toured the darkened halls of Clarendon Court, walking the layout of the alleged crime scenes.
00:24:36.160 While that jury is out deliberating, Sonny's children, Ala and Alexander, invite journalist Dominic Dunn, who had known Sonny since she was a debutante and has covered the whole affair, to spend the night at Clarendon Court.
00:24:51.580 He finds Sonny's bedroom kept exactly as it was the night of the second coma.
00:24:56.980 He finds the twin beds pushed together and made up with Sonny's porto sheets.
00:25:02.240 An old photograph of Klaus looking almost noble in a silver frame on his side of the bed.
00:25:08.980 And in a closet beside her evening gowns, the Christmas presents from 1980,
00:25:15.940 still wrapped, the festive paper gone faded and limp.
00:25:20.720 One from Sonny's oldest friend, one from her dead mother.
00:25:24.900 On Klaus's bedside table, there is a handsome box.
00:25:30.420 Dominic Dunn opens it.
00:25:32.700 Inside are cartridge shells, and underneath the shells, a used syringe.
00:25:39.700 Dunn thinks about that box for a long time afterward.
00:25:43.960 Twelve strangers saw Clarendon Court for an afternoon as evidence.
00:25:48.560 A reporter sees what it has truly become.
00:25:52.240 The night of the verdict, Klaus von Bülow can go anywhere he likes.
00:25:57.200 He's a free man, acquitted of the crime that made him famous.
00:26:01.740 Ninety miles away, in a room on the tenth floor of a New York hospital,
00:26:06.920 his wife Sunny lies exactly as she has since that second Christmas in 1980.
00:26:12.300 Her hair washed and set twice a week, and she will stay that way for the next 23 years,
00:26:18.960 like a doll
00:26:20.540 primped and perfectly
00:26:22.840 quaffed, well looked after
00:26:25.080 and all but dead
00:26:27.000 confined to a life of
00:26:28.960 no mobility nor consciousness
00:26:31.160 she is
00:26:33.240 the silent center of a case the jury
00:26:35.120 just decided without
00:26:36.980 deciding anything about how she
00:26:38.900 in fact got there
00:26:40.840 next time
00:26:42.840 Sonny's children have one
00:26:45.100 more arrow in their quiver
00:26:46.900 and Klaus von Bulow begins his next life an ocean away.
00:26:52.740 I'm Megan Kelly, and this is MK Confidential.