The Megyn Kelly Show - The Truth About UFOs and UAPs, with Lue Elizondo and John Greenewald

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00:00:30.000 when i found out my friend got a great deal on a wool coat from winners i started wondering is every

00:00:36.360 fabulous item i see from winners like that woman over there with the designer jeans are those from

00:00:42.180 winners or those beautiful gold earrings did she pay full price or that leather tote or that cashmere

00:00:48.320 sweater or those knee-high boots that dress that jacket those shoes is anyone paying full price for

00:00:54.840 anything stop wondering start winning winners find fabulous for less welcome to the megan kelly show

00:01:02.440 your home for open honest and provocative conversations

00:01:06.320 hey everyone i'm megan kelly welcome to the megan kelly show oh today ufos or now as we call them

00:01:21.100 uaps that's the new term unidentified aerial phenomena which i mocked the other day but have

00:01:28.400 now come around to and you'll understand why in a minute we've got two great guests for you um we've

00:01:34.520 done our screening so we're going to make sure that these are legit guys who have done actual research

00:01:38.700 uh on this thing right doesn't mean it come it's an alien thing right it means there's something

00:01:44.120 unidentified in the air that has been spotted repeatedly by the u.s military and what is it

00:01:51.180 who's it from russia china another planet our planet what us the u.s military what is it that's an honest

00:01:58.240 question to ask you don't have to be wearing a tinfoil hat to honestly want an answer to that and

00:02:04.120 there have been too many sightings of the things to say this is just made up it's some guy on you know

00:02:08.360 hallucinogens uh on his grandma's couch that's not what is happening here so we're gonna get into

00:02:14.100 it today and i'll tell you it's funny because we were just talking about this steve krakauer our ep

00:02:18.000 and abby everybody was like i'm so excited for today's show and i was like we'll see you know

00:02:22.420 i'm open i like i'm medium excited i've totally turned now totally now having done the interview

00:02:29.700 and having like read up i'm so into this uh these guys were really smart and really credible

00:02:35.780 and brought their facts and brought me on a journey of just intellectual exploration and

00:02:41.680 possibilities and with their feet in reality this is not pie in the sky stuff anyway without further

00:02:47.640 ado i'm gonna introduce you to who's coming on and you will enjoy it and learn for yourselves

00:02:51.280 uh number one is luis elizondo goes by lou lou elizondo and this guy served our country honorably

00:02:58.280 for 20 plus years in our military uh in afghanistan in the middle east in guantanamo he was running our

00:03:03.920 military intelligence operations worldwide and then he was tapped by our government to run

00:03:10.080 a group called the advanced aerospace threat identification program a tip and that is a

00:03:17.580 secretive pentagon unit that studied ufos or again uaps and he did it for years he was on 60 minutes

00:03:25.000 recently talking about it he's been on other media talking about it but you know the cat's out of the

00:03:29.400 bag and lou is unleashed in a way that's really helpful so he starts us off and then we're going

00:03:34.840 to get to a guy named john greenwald who's ceo of the black vault inc and the black vault inc is

00:03:42.320 something that is born of his many many many many many foia requests to different government agencies

00:03:49.640 over the years this is a guy who's got an insatiable appetite for information he's now i think 39 years

00:03:55.800 old and he has been trying to create an archive of more than 2 million pages about our government

00:04:03.400 this is not like i think they did this this is john asks for information on ufos and this is what they

00:04:08.740 sent in this area in that area from this department from that department and it's not all ufos but a lot

00:04:14.360 of it and he's come to his own conclusions he's done his own investigation and he'll also bring us some

00:04:18.640 of the history you know what is area 51 what was roswell what was that and what are the reports about

00:04:23.500 ufos from the 1940s and 50s that may have a through line to what we're hearing today what we're seeing

00:04:30.400 on camera thanks to these fighter pilots as recently as 2015 you're gonna love this show

00:04:36.560 all right so we'll get to them one minute first this

00:04:38.560 ma'am how are you i'm great how are you you know there's an old military saying that any day above

00:04:49.860 ground is a good day and i definitely uh subscribe to that if only it were that easy

00:04:55.940 so you are an interesting guy you you have been through it let me start with thank you for your

00:05:02.680 service to our country which has been vast and diverse according to what i read can we just start

00:05:07.500 with a little bit about you where where are you from originally yeah sure so uh south florida my

00:05:13.220 my father was involved in the u.s backed operations in the bay of pigs and so my father was a political

00:05:19.440 prisoner and as a result my my family came to this country in exile and so i grew up the son of a

00:05:26.660 of a cuban immigrant um worked uh was was instilled with a strong work ethic after attending uh college

00:05:34.560 university of miami i decided to join the united states army um i guess from a very early age i was

00:05:40.780 always instilled with that that sense of service and and try to pay back for the opportunities that

00:05:45.920 that my family was given so so i enlisted in the uh in the united states army had an opportunity to

00:05:52.320 to go in as an officer uh but instead i uh you know i i guess maybe i'm old-fashioned but but i think in

00:05:59.940 order to to lead you first need to know how to follow so i i decided to enlist and uh i was in the army

00:06:05.920 for a little bit uh i was i spent some time in uh in in asia and then i was recruited into a special

00:06:13.320 activities program and the rest is pretty much history i spent my early career as a as a

00:06:18.600 counterintelligence special agent primarily focusing uh on counter espionage and technology

00:06:23.700 protection and then uh later on into to counterinsurgency counter guerrilla operations uh and supporting

00:06:30.540 counter narcotics out of latin america uh after 9-11 of course my whole world changed like

00:06:35.920 pretty much everybody else's and my focus was then on counterterrorism primarily and so i spent

00:06:41.760 a good portion of my career over in the middle east and and afghanistan and then in 2008 when i came

00:06:48.900 back here i was here in in washington dc for a little while i was asked to uh to be part of a really

00:06:55.720 small nuanced group of people uh at the time it was called a tip it didn't mean anything to me

00:07:00.380 um i was asked to set up a counterintelligence and security effort for them and so so i did um

00:07:06.840 and it was very uh very quickly then i realized that we're we were really dealing with with now

00:07:12.680 what everybody knows which is which is ufos um in 2010 so who who gave you the call or if you're

00:07:18.560 allowed to say to say hey i have a new mission for you in 2008 you know i'll tell you miss kelly it

00:07:24.040 was it was surreal looking back uh almost almost out of a hollywood movie two people had i was

00:07:29.720 working in a undisclosed location in crystal city and uh two people i had one of my my uh colleagues

00:07:35.980 come up and says uh hey hey lou i've got two people here uh to see you which isn't unusual i mean you do

00:07:41.600 a lot of work in the government with other other agencies and a female and a male walked in and they

00:07:47.060 asked me a few questions uh and they said hey look we hear you have a background in this and that and

00:07:51.440 this and that yeah yeah and uh they said hey we'll be back to talk with you now of course

00:07:55.940 immediately what goes through your mind is you know uh oh what did i do now right what did i do

00:08:00.780 right right right you know some people come in in suits and you know it's never very good uh but in

00:08:06.400 reality they they came back the week later and uh they asked me a few more questions and they said

00:08:11.440 hey listen um uh we'll have one more meeting with you but we have somebody who would like to meet

00:08:15.500 with you uh we we think we we may need someone with your skill sets um so i agreed to take the

00:08:21.360 next meeting and the last meeting occurred in a in another undisclosed location in the national

00:08:26.960 capital region and i met uh i met this gentleman who was who was literally a rocket scientist um i mean

00:08:34.200 he he just exuded this this this this high degree of intelligence uh wasn't particularly animated

00:08:40.820 very much just the facts which is something i can appreciate and he uh he finally said look you know

00:08:47.080 you come highly recommended you've got the great skill sets that we're looking for um uh how do you

00:08:52.240 and then he asked me just bluntly what do you what do you think about ufos and uh and was that the

00:08:56.760 first time anybody had mentioned ufos to you in the first time yes ma'am so you have a light bulb

00:09:01.820 moment there like oh my gosh now well actually you know i don't know if he was kidding i don't know if

00:09:07.400 he was trying to to do some sort of mental assessment to see if maybe i was prone to you know flights of

00:09:12.400 fancy so i i i told him the truth i said you know sir i i don't think about ufos and he said well what

00:09:19.200 do you mean you don't you don't believe in them i said no sir it's not that i believe in them or i

00:09:22.420 don't believe in them i just simply never had the luxury to to really to really think about them i'm

00:09:27.420 not particularly a science fiction fan uh i've never had really much time to to get involved in in

00:09:32.500 the topic so i really don't have an opinion either way and he said to me well uh that's great i'm glad

00:09:38.940 your your objective but don't let your your personal bias um you know interfere with with

00:09:44.940 the ability to collect data and it was at that point that i realized that this program was was

00:09:50.000 was pretty special little program and through time weeks i i realized that that what these folks were

00:09:55.820 doing was really looking at at ufos um and that was a bit of a an eye-opener for me for sure

00:10:02.640 i'll bet and so so did he how did he explain the mission so uh well actually it was a culmination

00:10:09.520 of him explaining the mission he had a mission briefing um which seemed uh something out of out

00:10:14.960 of really like i said a hollywood movie i couldn't believe my eyes but then when i saw the funding line

00:10:19.340 and who was involved i i realized this is very legitimate and i knew some people that were already

00:10:24.720 involved with the effort tangentially and these were very serious people uh these were were some of

00:10:30.340 the best in the field and so i i obviously at that point i recognized that that this was real this

00:10:35.560 wasn't a joke um this wasn't uh some sort of rogue operation it was a fully sanctioned effort and it was

00:10:41.360 reporting directly to to dia some very interesting findings and a lot of the people that worked in the

00:10:47.420 effort were some of the finest uh astrophysicists and and if you will nuclear physicists and and

00:10:55.180 everybody from the scientific community had this incredible track record and i'm the new kid

00:11:00.160 coming in and i was really quite frankly blown away by the level of expertise and dedication that had

00:11:06.120 managed to to be in this effort now is this the harry reed program it is indeed ma'am yes so so

00:11:13.100 senator harry reed along with uh this was a i think what's important to note here is that this was a

00:11:17.580 bipartisan effort um a lot of people like to spin things unfortunately as as we both know in washington

00:11:24.080 as being you know a political thing this wasn't uh we had the support of of senator harry's uh of

00:11:29.720 harry reed uh senator stevens senator inua and even even uh former astronaut john glenn and they were

00:11:37.580 they were convinced that this was a topic they had i guess received enough threat reporting that

00:11:42.360 there were these incursions over over controlled u.s airspace and over uh sensitive military installations

00:11:48.240 well it's interesting because you mentioned stevens and you're talking alaska you're talking hawaii

00:11:53.040 you're talking nevada you know these these are states you hear mentioned uh in the same breadth

00:11:58.340 as ufo sightings for whatever reason so it's probably not too surprising that they would have

00:12:03.620 said yeah let's do it and they managed to find 22 million dollars that wasn't taxpayer funded so it

00:12:07.540 wasn't from the taxpayer somehow you know well and interestingly enough stevens had his his own

00:12:12.120 sighting you know back when he was a pilot so a lot of these gentlemen were all you know veterans

00:12:17.420 these aren't uh these are very i think rational minded individuals um you know senator inua literally

00:12:22.960 gave his his his arm for this country and and they all looked at this and said yeah this is this is

00:12:29.020 important um and again you know i i'm certainly not going to speak on behalf of any of these these

00:12:33.580 these senators but they were all convinced that this was a topic at least worth exploring and and so

00:12:40.020 you know so you you're mentioning like the aerial physicist and all this so what what did you think

00:12:44.540 your role was because you had a different kind of background mine was very simple mine was to to

00:12:49.160 establish the counterintelligence and security portfolio uh because of the sensitivities of the

00:12:53.620 program the fact that they were trying to to to up the uh if you will or increase the level of of

00:12:59.360 security for this effort its profile meant that there was a very specific concern for

00:13:05.260 adversarial penetrations um russia china um if you will trying to collect on what we were doing

00:13:12.220 and that was a wait a minute let me just ask you do you mean trying to prevent russia and china from

00:13:17.240 seeing what your group was doing or you were the man responsible for figuring out whether these crafts

00:13:22.680 were from russia or china no no my my job was to stop the russian uh intelligence services from finding

00:13:30.680 out what we knew what we were doing so it was a defensive counterintelligence effort uh looking at

00:13:36.520 our operational security and looking at our personnel security and looking at our cyber security portfolio

00:13:42.840 pretty much any way that the enemy can if you will um sneak into your house our job was to my job was

00:13:49.600 to come up with programs uh to to make that much much more difficult hmm that's challenging especially

00:13:57.360 when it comes to the chinese but the russians too they're very good at getting into our business and

00:14:01.580 spying on us in ways that we don't expect and we haven't anticipated very sophisticated and it wasn't

00:14:07.020 for about two years from 2008 to 2010 that was my responsibility and it wasn't until 2010 that i was

00:14:13.860 asked to actually take over the effort to head up the advanced aerospace threat identification program

00:14:20.680 or you just call it a tip correct yes okay so now you become in charge of this is the ufo unit right

00:14:29.960 this is the unit that's trying to figure out what you can ufo that term connotes aliens but it it

00:14:37.400 shouldn't it's an unidentified flying object we don't the whole point is it's unidentified we don't

00:14:41.800 know if it's an alien thing we don't know if it's a russian thing we don't know if it's a u.s military

00:14:45.020 tech thing but the point is to figure out what might it be and and this is a very unusual effort because

00:14:51.680 it's sort of on the books it's being a bi it's a bipartisan sponsored thing and you have the official

00:14:57.060 imprimatur of the u.s government saying go get them lou tell us what these things are this is an honest

00:15:02.580 look trying to figure out what these things are yes ma'am in fact you know we we were very non-emotional

00:15:08.440 about it um you know we we all went to work every day the same i think what's important here is that

00:15:13.800 when when i was running the program the same level of rigor and the same methodologies we apply to

00:15:19.600 hunting terrorists and spies were the same thing that we were doing to hunt ufos it wasn't really a matter of

00:15:25.480 these hey these are ufos look we've got an intelligence problem here there's something

00:15:29.580 that's flying around in our controlled u.s airspace and there's really not a whole lot we can do about

00:15:33.560 it we don't know what it is and whatever these things are frankly can outperform anything in our

00:15:38.080 current inventory so from that perspective it is a certainly a national security issue now we

00:15:42.600 we chose to use the term uap vice ufo and i know some people find that a little bit uh uh if you

00:15:49.420 will disingenuous but it's really not buzzkill yeah i know well but you know there was there was two

00:15:54.780 reasons for that uh and and the first is that uh there is a lot of uh stigma as you know as a

00:16:00.580 reporter as as as frankly one of the one of the best reporters out there that and a journalist that

00:16:05.460 there are certain topics that are lightning rods and ufos in particular it's got a lot of stigma and

00:16:11.040 taboo associated with it the first thing we think about are tinfoil hats etc and it tends to be a fringe

00:16:16.600 topic um so that's one of the problems but two we're not even sure if the term ufo is even accurate

00:16:21.800 anymore it is unidentified but the term flying is something that is is very specific to flight

00:16:27.540 and there are four fundamental forces uh which is thrust lift drag and weight and when you understand

00:16:34.040 those forces you you can develop wings and control surface and you fly these things that we're seeing

00:16:39.480 miss kelly don't don't seem to have any of that they don't have any of the associated technology

00:16:44.240 that we we we have to employ in order to to fly we have wings and we have jet engines and whatnot

00:16:51.140 rudders ailerons elevators these things don't have any of those they don't have any wings they don't

00:16:55.980 even have any obvious signs of propulsion they don't even have cockpits that we can see there's

00:17:00.140 no rivets in the skin so to say that they're flying may not even be accurate yes they are in our

00:17:05.920 atmosphere but we don't know if they are employing the same even the same type of technology

00:17:10.420 that we associate with flying they may be using something completely and different something

00:17:14.800 radically different than what what we normally associate as as as you know technology used to

00:17:20.980 fly i like that okay that actually makes sense so the hence the change from unidentified flying

00:17:26.740 object to unidentified aerial yes that we can agree on phenomena and yes we can agree on that too okay

00:17:33.800 so i accept now i did i am one of the ones who mocked uap but i'm i'm adopting it i i'm with you now

00:17:39.460 okay so you're there blank slate open-minded guy this isn't your background you were not a tinfoil

00:17:45.820 hat person you know communicating with the the great beyond telling tales of alien abductions in

00:17:51.120 your youth this was not you you're a military guy like all right i'm gonna do what my country asked

00:17:54.500 me to do um let me get after it and so how did that start did you did you interview because you know

00:18:01.100 most of the sightings that it seems you guys took a hard look at were from military pilots these are

00:18:06.960 people who honorably served our country these are not lunatics these are not people who just seem to

00:18:12.020 have some inherent desire to mess with our government these are pilots they're serious men and women so

00:18:18.080 did you interview them or what how did you start getting to the bottom of what you needed to know

00:18:21.540 yeah we did actually uh we we did we conducted quite a few interviews in fact and and i think

00:18:27.260 you know there people will say well why did you only interview military well there's two reasons for

00:18:31.720 that first of all because of the title 10 authorities and i'm not going to you know

00:18:35.120 unfortunately i'm not going to bore your audience with the details but there are certain restrictions

00:18:39.480 and limitations that is is placed on the department of defense and the intelligence community when it

00:18:45.820 involves u.s persons information and by the way these rules are in place to protect average americans so

00:18:51.600 so their personal information isn't isn't uh if you will used in an inappropriate way there were some

00:18:57.900 times in the past where the intelligence community kind of abused its power and so congress mandated that we

00:19:03.700 we we make sure that we we we don't do that again and so um civilians have a lot of of obviously

00:19:09.860 identifying information we focused on military pilots for that reason and contractors and whatnot

00:19:15.340 but also there's a there's a high degree of training that goes in behind let's say a top gun pilot

00:19:21.540 these folks are the best of the best they are trained observers and they are trained to identify

00:19:26.800 the difference between an su-22 a mig-25 and f-16 and a european tornado from 20 miles away

00:19:33.660 i mean these folks have literally a second and a half to decide if that that aircraft is friend

00:19:38.620 or foe because the the rule of the sky is that he who fires first wins and so these pilots are highly

00:19:45.240 trained and then furthermore miss kelly what you have are these these these trained observers

00:19:50.220 critically looking at these objects and getting an eyewitness account but it's furthermore backed up

00:19:55.400 on gun camera footage and other electro optical devices and further backed up by radar data sometimes

00:20:01.460 multiple radars and so if this was a jury and you were trying to present evidence you now have three

00:20:07.340 separate collection sensors the human being being one of those that are all reporting the same

00:20:12.720 information at the same time under the same circumstances of the same thing and if you were

00:20:18.240 to present that to a jury i think you know the in this case the jury would have to convict where

00:20:22.500 we're well beyond reasonable doubt now um first off please call me megan uh but let's so let's talk

00:20:29.620 about it because the first one i see that's you know been cited um most publicly is is what happened

00:20:34.960 on the in 2004 with the uss nimitz and and what one of the things that jumped out to me about that

00:20:41.360 incident and this is a guy david fravor that he's a graduate of the top gun naval flight school

00:20:46.440 flying at his wing is lieutenant alex dietrich a woman um these are legit people i mean this is like

00:20:52.100 they seem to me like the best of our best and they had an incident but one of the things about

00:20:57.160 their reporting that jumped out to me was that there was advanced new radar on a nearby ship

00:21:02.500 the uss princeton that had been detecting quote multiple anomalous aerial vehicles and the advanced

00:21:09.120 new radar is pretty interesting right because it's like was there a moment was it 2004 where we did

00:21:14.700 something to our technology whether it was the one on the uss princeton or our infrared abilities

00:21:21.180 which i know came come into play in 2015 that improved our ability to see things that for our

00:21:27.660 planes and our radar to see things that our naked eyes cannot yes absolutely what a thoughtful question

00:21:33.520 megan yes so i think what people don't understand is that the government spends billions of dollars

00:21:38.040 each year in research and development always trying to stay one step ahead of the of the adversary

00:21:42.600 and in this case the spy one radar when it was fielded was one of the the most comprehensive

00:21:48.680 and sophisticated radars on the planet in fact the person who operated those radars specifically on

00:21:54.780 the uss princeton was a gentleman named kevin day who was also believe it or not a top gun graduate

00:22:00.800 but this but but for the radar school and in the words of kevin day he said it was literally

00:22:05.780 raining ufos they saw them on the scope and by the way this is a radar system the spy one radar that

00:22:12.640 can can can see a baseball at 80 000 feet and so these things were seen coming in from 80 000 feet

00:22:18.540 presumably from low earth orbit and all of a sudden dropping within a second 50 feet over the water

00:22:25.140 and hovering and then popping back up again and what's more interesting here is it's not just

00:22:29.960 the the the super sophisticated spy one radar we had e2 hawkeye in the air that was also picking

00:22:36.380 picking this up on radar there were multiple what's what's that what's e2 hawkeye so the e2 hawkeye is

00:22:42.120 think of a um think of a quarterback on a football field the e2 hawkeye is a airborne radar system

00:22:49.160 that provides if you will uh command and control for these aircraft what they do is it's a flying

00:22:56.320 radar system that can pinpoint the enemy and then you can vector in fighter planes to go and uh and

00:23:02.920 go and take a look and these things are they're very sophisticated uh these the e2 hawkeye is a um

00:23:09.580 it's it's kind of like a combat controller if you will for those who may have been in the military

00:23:14.380 it's just an extra layer of radar that provides you yeah it's like a radar assist fidelity it is

00:23:20.000 correct that's a great way to great way to look at it and so again you know you had all these

00:23:24.600 different radar systems looking at it you had pilots seeing it you had gun camera footage and you had

00:23:30.180 this long history over several days of these of these objects uh being seen over catalina island

00:23:36.580 there's even some eyewitness testimony as well on board some of the ships that actually saw these

00:23:41.440 things and so uh it was very compelling and of course when the pilots came back they received the

00:23:47.360 same treatment as as everybody else who who's reported these things and they were ridiculed

00:23:51.660 people were making fun of them they played x-files they were mocked and i'll tell you if you ever get a

00:23:55.800 chance to talk to alex dietrich or or dave fravor they they are heroes and these are i've often told

00:24:00.540 people these are a rare breed of people um they are are one of the few types of human beings that

00:24:05.800 actually run towards danger not away and so alex and and dave were were very frustrated uh but they

00:24:12.580 weren't the only ones there were other people that were ridiculed and there were other people that

00:24:15.960 that really um had a had a tough time trying to to report this information back then and i'll give you

00:24:22.260 some their their their incident again 2004 and you they are they seem very like very serious people

00:24:27.920 they were featured on 60 minutes they've been on cnn with anderson cooper i've watched them i've

00:24:32.500 assessed their credibility for myself they do not seem like anything close to nuts um but that that

00:24:38.040 sighting in 2004 was prior to the establishment of of atip so there really wasn't even any place for

00:24:44.620 them to go they just got mocked as they knew they would be but to their credit they they did what they

00:24:48.820 were told to do which is go investigate and then they came back and said what they saw um it wasn't

00:24:53.440 until later that the government said you know what let's just why stigmatize this why don't we actually

00:24:58.100 take a hard look into it but they're on the record assessment of what happened in the air

00:25:03.240 um off the coast of san diego is really it's shocking and here's one of the questions i have

00:25:10.500 and i want to get into that because chronologically i think this will make sense you might be surprised

00:25:14.940 to know that this goes back much further but there was an incident in the exact same part of the waters

00:25:19.840 with the uss uss boxer between 1998 and 99 so a lot of people know about the print about the nimitz

00:25:27.780 incident because now it's it's picked up in the media but there are these incidents are occurring

00:25:33.580 all the time and for me it's shocking that nobody in the beltway wanted to do anything about it they

00:25:39.660 were okay spending money trying to figure out what these things were as long as we didn't tell anybody

00:25:44.140 what the results of our findings were it was uh it was perplexing did we have the fancy radar back in

00:25:49.840 98 99 we we had fancy radars we did not have the spy one radar but we did have other other

00:25:55.920 capabilities and and enough so where we could we we had the advantage over our adversaries so uh it was

00:26:03.040 enough that even in 98 99 i mean we we could certainly see these things coming coming out of the water

00:26:10.120 into the water uh we had that capability so there there was so let me ask you this if they if they

00:26:15.160 lock on to one of these targets and they see they see one of these things flying through the air like

00:26:18.820 the two like dave and and alex did in 2004 um have we been able to determine if we get to the spot

00:26:27.040 where the craft is whatever it is the flying the aerial phenomenon is something there physically do we know

00:26:34.740 is if something is touchable you know palpable material or whether it's just imagery oh no it's

00:26:42.100 definitely a real object for sure uh that's that's not even in question anymore these are these aren't

00:26:47.720 uh tricks of the camera they're not artifacts uh or lens flare these are real objects objects that can

00:26:54.060 be seen and objects that can be measured and objects they have mass ostensibly be touched yes they

00:26:59.820 have mass which is very perplexing because what we're seeing the maneuvers that they can do the

00:27:04.180 instantaneous acceleration the hypersonic velocities you know for anything that has mass now you start

00:27:09.440 getting into a physics problem let me let me put that into context if i may just very briefly

00:27:13.440 um we do have objects that can for example go very fast hypersonic velocity um and to put that

00:27:20.420 into context the sr 71 blackbird can do about 3200 miles an hour but if it wants to take a right hand

00:27:27.460 turn it takes about half the state of ohio to do that and what we are seeing are objects that are not

00:27:33.560 doing 3200 miles an hour but possibly 8 000 9 000 13 000 miles an hour in our atmosphere and somehow

00:27:42.180 able to execute not only right hand turns but 180 degree turns instantaneously so the g-forces that

00:27:50.160 would be experienced on something like that are are truly no pun intended astronomical we're talking

00:27:55.280 about g-force that would would be well beyond the healthy limitations of anything biological to withstand

00:28:00.700 and even from a material science perspective um would absolutely just obliterate if you will any

00:28:06.320 type of of known aircraft that we have to in order to perform maneuvers like that so these guys said

00:28:12.760 fravor david fravor came back and said um we we flew out to investigate after the uss princeton had been

00:28:19.180 detecting multiple anomalous aerial vehicles uh they said that they'd been descending 80 000 feet in less

00:28:24.380 than one second which you know think about it our our 747s that we fly on you know from a to b that

00:28:31.200 they go up 30 000 feet and the thought of them flying all the way down to the ground in one second

00:28:37.340 is incomprehensible never mind 80 000 feet so that's what they were reporting they flew out to investigate

00:28:42.520 they said they found an area of roiling white water so in the water they're seeing like a churn the size

00:28:48.380 of a 737 in an otherwise calm blue sea they said um they saw an object that was a tic-tac shaped object

00:28:55.980 about 40 feet long and oval jumping around erratically staying over the wave disturbance but not moving in

00:29:02.980 any specific direction when fravor got closer he said it came up it it came to him as if to meet him

00:29:08.600 halfway and then accelerated away like nothing i've ever seen he said it was jumping around like a ping pong

00:29:14.360 ball um had no markings had no wings had no exhaust plumes he said when it got right in front of me it

00:29:20.360 just disappeared seconds later the uss princeton reacquired the target 60 miles away 60 miles okay

00:29:28.860 within seconds another crew briefly locked onto it before it zipped off again and all of this is backed

00:29:36.020 up by uh his his the other pilot uh alex dietrich so is that it like is that the first time somebody

00:29:45.420 has gotten that specific on seeing a craft that looked like this and behaved like this no i you know

00:29:52.400 it's this is what i think is so so intriguing i think most people would be surprised if we have

00:29:57.420 docked government government documentation uh not civilian eyewitnesses but military eyewitnesses

00:30:02.660 where these reports go back to the 1950s but rather than being described as a flying white tic-tac

00:30:08.640 they're described as a white white flying butane tank or a white flying throat lozenge and so

00:30:15.660 obviously we're describing these things based upon our you know our current genre to to compare things

00:30:21.980 to like tic-tac mints and whatnot but these what i think what's so perplexing here is that we continue

00:30:27.120 to see these things over and over and over again and they're reported through official government

00:30:31.880 channels to the point where there were actually at some point these mini task forces these mini

00:30:37.160 investigative bodies that were created specifically to try to figure these things out because they are

00:30:42.040 over many cases controlled u.s airspace or sensitive military installations particularly nuclear facilities

00:30:48.960 which of course is very very uh concerning for us it's it's so these guys got mocked and they talk

00:30:56.640 openly about how they went back and everybody's like oh sure and they were playing men in black for

00:31:00.400 you know that's sort of the thing to do to show that you're not you're not a tinfoil hat you're

00:31:04.960 one of the cool kids you dismiss this as nonsense as opposed to just being open-minded how the hell

00:31:09.540 do we know we're so smart we're we've got it all figured out sure we know bullshit we don't know

00:31:14.120 anything so we got to we got to keep an open mind and let the experts like you at least take us down

00:31:19.040 the road of discovery it's amazing to me when people they're so smug they think they they know

00:31:24.060 everything they know nothing they haven't worked with aerospace engineers they haven't talked to rocket

00:31:27.620 scientists they haven't gone and interviewed these fighter pilots like you have so you you nothing is

00:31:33.340 done or or said officially about this incident with the nimitz for five years until you come across the

00:31:39.460 story and you investigate and i'm sure one of the first things you want to see is data but backup what

00:31:47.360 what proof is there as opposed to just eyewitness accounts and did you find any but we did ma'am and

00:31:54.060 and let me if i can just correct the record we had some outstanding men and women in atip that were

00:32:00.420 were responsible also for for collecting this information helping us assess it and analyze it

00:32:05.740 triage it catalog it and finally uh have some sort of of of conclusive product that allowed us to to

00:32:13.420 really determine if this is something that is foreign adversarial or this really some sort of beyond

00:32:17.940 next generation technology you know you you said something very i think very interesting and very

00:32:23.300 important and you said that a lot of people will tend to laugh at this and they find it kind of

00:32:28.060 silly you know there there's something as a human being we all have which is this cognitive dissidence

00:32:33.140 and as human beings it almost seems to be part of of the human condition that when we are presented

00:32:38.820 with information that goes against our own personal preconceived narrative the very first thing we do

00:32:45.960 is reject it and if you've ever talked to somebody about something serious perhaps a cheating

00:32:51.660 spouse or you know a really bad prognosis in medicine the very first reaction is i don't believe it which

00:32:58.400 is normal that's a normal human reaction to have and i think what's so important about this topic is

00:33:04.480 as people begin to get more information uh hopefully they they rather than comport the facts around their if

00:33:14.500 you will around their opinions i think it's more important that we we conform our opinions around

00:33:21.740 the facts and i think you're starting to see that and i will tell you too major major kudos for you

00:33:27.860 and a few of your other brave journalists because i do know there's great risk in reporting this

00:33:32.840 in the media and i will tell you that i think you you folks are approaching this perfectly fair objective

00:33:39.140 just the facts um that's that is why we are seeing i think um a lot of progress over the last three

00:33:46.660 years because there are very respectable journalists who who know how to do real journalism and and

00:33:52.580 they're reporting the facts and they're asking the right questions so my hats off to you um thank you

00:33:58.780 thank you i feel like we've done nothing i mean it's been it's been guys like you who have taken the

00:34:02.960 helm and then it's helpful to have you know the u.s senate marco rubio and others saying we want a real

00:34:09.420 report now this is like we've been toying around with this long enough let's take a hard look into

00:34:13.640 this and and apparently we're about to get said report any day now here in june but i it's hard to

00:34:20.380 totally dismiss this no matter how much of a skeptic you may be when i've seen the video you know it's

00:34:25.860 like this is an audio podcast but you can just google it and you will see um video not from the 2004 nimitz

00:34:32.760 uh encounter but from there are two 2015 videos of encounters uh where other pilots and the new

00:34:40.040 york times did extensive reporting on this based on video that was leaked to them but now we've all

00:34:44.500 seen it where the you can hear the reaction of the pilots of our fighter pilots saying oh look at it

00:34:49.700 it's rotating look at that thing hold on i'll play um one and then and then the other listen sure

00:34:54.340 there's a whole fleet of them look on the assa my gosh

00:34:58.680 they're all going against the wind the wind's 120 knots west

00:35:03.880 so that was number one and what what is that what is the significance of saying they're all going

00:35:18.780 against the wind the wind is 120 sure so first of all it's not a balloon you know because balloons

00:35:24.700 first of all it's not a balloon megan because balloons don't go against the wind balloon balloons

00:35:28.920 are buoyant devices and they follow the prevailing wind two uh is the altitude but three you have the

00:35:35.000 orientation of the craft doing something that craft shouldn't be able to do that have wings

00:35:39.580 and then fourth there's a whole bunch so a bunch of these things that they're seeing so i think what's

00:35:44.620 important here whenever we look at a video it's very easy to just jump in and be dismissive and say

00:35:49.120 yeah i don't see anything there but what's important to know here is that there's a there's a whole

00:35:53.860 there's a whole uh if you will amount of there's a whole context that occurs before the video and and

00:36:00.860 that occurs after the video that people don't realize and what you're what you're hearing are the

00:36:05.940 pilots saying look there's a whole bunch of these up here this isn't just some stray weather balloon

00:36:09.820 that you know was released uh and and kind of wayward now in the sky these things are coordinated

00:36:16.060 they're being choreographed there's some sort of intelligent control that is that is behind the the

00:36:22.400 choreography of these things in the sky and they are behaving in a way that is is atypical of of a

00:36:30.100 normal aircraft or a balloon or a drone or a cruise missile or you know any technology you want to you

00:36:36.900 want to insert there it's it's something that is is truly baffling and and that's not the only one

00:36:41.760 there are many other videos many other other pictures and photos that exist but there's also

00:36:46.600 reports and data from radar and this is also not just a u.s phenomenon this is what concerns me as a

00:36:52.660 counterintelligence guy that we have russia and china that are also having these same issues look

00:36:57.540 china just came out and announced they have their own uap task force and they're using artificial

00:37:01.820 intelligence russia during glasnost in the fall of the of the berlin wall for about five years there

00:37:07.760 was this little bit of a romantic period between the u.s and russia where they were sharing all their

00:37:12.960 ufo information with us and you know what they had the same problem we did so this is this is a global

00:37:18.660 issue and they were seeing some of the trends and patterns we were and there are some there are some

00:37:23.660 some reports out there from from very senior senior russian generals uh that were completely

00:37:30.160 forthcoming with with the american government saying yeah these are okay but could that could

00:37:34.180 that be an attempt to throw us off right like oh yeah we saw them too but meanwhile it's them

00:37:39.220 they because this is one of the theories that china or russia is they're way ahead of us and they've

00:37:44.740 somehow developed this crazy hypersonic weaponry which you're going to explain to me what that means

00:37:50.220 that this is the term i read um that's way more advanced than anything we could do and so they're just

00:37:54.920 going to go along with oh yeah it's so weird we had it we had it too but meanwhile it's them

00:37:58.820 yeah no such a great argument megan and this is one that that we've we've had to address before and

00:38:04.260 let me if i can for just briefly here walk walk through the logic trail on this so for for many

00:38:10.020 many years there were really three options to this this argument this issue and the first one was

00:38:14.900 it's some sort of secret u.s technology and we're just not coordinating amongst ourselves

00:38:19.000 uh the next argument was well this is some sort of foreign technology some sort of adversarial

00:38:25.040 technology that has leapfrogged ahead of us and then the third option is well we're dealing with

00:38:29.340 something completely and entirely different well our government for the first time and frankly this

00:38:35.020 has been going on now for 30 years with with discussions such as tr3b and whatnot but for the

00:38:40.660 first time our government has come out for the record and said succinctly and officially this is not

00:38:45.720 our technology period so so that is now off the table that argument entirely so then the other two

00:38:51.900 options are okay well that leaves either it's adversarial technology or it's something else

00:38:57.200 let's break that down for just a moment we have documentation substantiating these sightings going

00:39:03.120 back at least to the late 40s and early 1950s over some very sensitive u.s facilities

00:39:09.160 if to to imagine for a minute where we were technologically just won world war ii

00:39:15.420 and there is a country that has developed secretly somehow technology that is possibly a thousand

00:39:22.800 years ahead of us and they started exercising this technology employing this technology in 1950 now

00:39:30.820 if that was the case countries like china that spend a billion dollars if not more a year

00:39:36.780 stealing our technology just to keep to to have a competitive advantage or or russia i think we would

00:39:44.180 have probably seen this technology field it and some sort of combat theater uh and i think it would

00:39:50.200 have been very very hard to keep this secret because countries like that's actually one of my questions

00:39:54.960 that's actually is there evidence that the chinese have data on our military training or something else

00:40:00.880 that they shouldn't that would be gleanable from observing those those fighter pilots off the coast of

00:40:06.460 virginia or the east coast or the russians and that's my concern too has if if if the since china and

00:40:13.500 russia are looking we know that they are looking into this topic they've admitted it openly if that's

00:40:18.400 the case then are they ahead of us in understanding this technology and let's let's go back to this

00:40:23.920 discussion where you said if if some sort of possibly and i think it's a great question some country has

00:40:28.680 managed to leapfrog us technologically imagine the intelligence failure this would mean for our

00:40:34.560 country that for 70 years there has been an adversary despite the billions of dollars we put into

00:40:40.380 our 18 intelligent members of the intelligence community somehow remained under the proverbial

00:40:45.520 radar and has managed to not only develop this technology but furthermore deployed over controlled

00:40:51.600 u.s airspace and there's not a thing we can do about it i think to me that's terrifying i think

00:40:57.380 that would be an intelligence failure that would eclipse 9-11 by by by probably we see china and

00:41:04.380 russia making so many like so bigger and more meaningful technological and military and economic

00:41:12.280 leaps and bounds ahead of us you know like wouldn't we be left in their dust at this point if they had

00:41:16.700 this kind of technology to spy on us right we in fact more importantly you would yes you're right but

00:41:21.680 also you would need to invest the the the millions and millions of dollars in in nuclear technology to

00:41:27.980 keep pace with the united states because you have a disruptive technology now in your arsenal

00:41:32.260 where any weapon the united states has is completely meaningless so you would not have to spend all

00:41:37.500 this money on your defense because you've got that secret weapon so again it just it doesn't make

00:41:42.780 sense from an intelligence perspective nothing about that particular argument that it's russian or china

00:41:48.940 makes sense now is it possible of course it is we can't completely rule it out and this is why we

00:41:54.380 have said for the record all options must remain on the table until they're no longer on the table we

00:41:59.820 don't want to go down prematurely down any rabbit holes but there are these are options for sure

00:42:04.900 on the on the topic of our government saying the one thing and apparently this is what this june

00:42:09.420 report is going to say is like there's not much conclusive in this june report that that the senate

00:42:14.220 ordered um but the expected report is going to say there's no evidence that it's alien technology well

00:42:20.620 we knew that but we can't rule it out okay not helpful that doesn't advance anything but then they're

00:42:25.080 going to say the one thing we can tell you is that it doesn't originate from the american military or

00:42:29.540 other u.s government tech this is the only definitive finding in the classified intel report

00:42:33.280 that that is being generate generated um so it's not government tech which of course is going to

00:42:38.220 make a lot of people say well then it's 100 government tech if they if they're willing to go on the

00:42:43.180 record and say it's not ours they're probably just saying that to cover up the fact that it's 100

00:42:47.800 percent ours and they're just trying to you know head fake us well i i think that's that would be

00:42:53.120 very dangerous and frankly illegal because you don't lie to congress um that's a big no-no and you

00:42:58.820 definitely don't lie to the director of national intelligence and the secretary of defense if those

00:43:03.780 type of uh efforts were going on and and under the nose of these of these department heads uh and they

00:43:11.620 lied to their leadership that's illegal that that that's a rogue operation and we do know that there

00:43:17.260 are rules and regulations title 50 for the intelligence community title 10 for the department

00:43:21.740 of defense that makes it illegal to be running these type of operations with appropriate without

00:43:26.920 appropriate oversight so if that's the case then then we've got bigger problems on our hands because

00:43:32.660 that means somewhere the chain of command has broken down and there are people uh doing things

00:43:37.760 unilaterally um under the guise of u.s uh authorities that are frankly illegal and so i even have

00:43:46.260 former presidents like barack obama speculating about it and presumably if it were u.s program

00:43:51.880 that was super top secret he would he would just be quiet he wouldn't be well look at right he said

00:43:59.600 he said he was briefed and he wanted he was trying to get this stuff uh released at the unclassified

00:44:04.920 level uh but he just ran out of time you don't you don't release information about your own secret

00:44:10.460 tech if you want to keep it secret again that argument it's just it just doesn't make sense because

00:44:15.680 you have senior people in the government to include uh former director of of uh cia john

00:44:21.200 brandon and even wolsey now uh former dni rackliff all coming out saying yes we we know these things

00:44:27.640 are there if they were our secret technology i don't think that you would you would have people

00:44:33.060 being so forthcoming about this that's that's not how you keep something secret right and you

00:44:38.020 certainly don't fly it over populated u.s cities what you do is you you fly them out of area 51 at

00:44:43.000 these test ranges so your your secret not secret technology stays secret up next we're going to

00:44:48.680 talk about the first-hand account from former navy pilot lieutenant ryan graves his squadron began

00:44:54.700 seeing these uaps hovering over restricted airspace off of virginia beach and uh he said they saw them

00:45:02.820 every day for at least a couple of years he is on the record with this and we're going to get into

00:45:08.620 that uh with lou ask him what he makes of it and um talk about why why we need to be paying attention

00:45:15.720 to this why these sightings are the equivalent of you waking up in the morning in a locked house

00:45:23.260 finding somebody else's muddy boot prints all over your living room floor that's 60 seconds away

00:45:29.380 there was another guy who's gone on record graves i think is his last name ryan yes ma'am great great

00:45:38.040 human being and his he had an interesting contribution to all of this i thought so this guy

00:45:42.840 um he said look he was part of a second incident in 2015 and actually we have some audio tape of that

00:45:50.580 let's play that first okay so graves um is somebody who says uh he's a now former navy pilot lieutenant

00:46:11.400 ryan graves his squad began to see these uaps hovering over restricted airspace southeast of

00:46:16.220 virginia beach in 2014 when they updated their jets radar uh making it possible to zero in with

00:46:21.900 infrared cameras once again um he said pilots training off the atlantic coast uh off the

00:46:27.660 atlantic on the east coast see things like this quote all the time he says quote every day for at

00:46:31.500 least a couple of years we saw this and he says um look it could be russians could be the chinese but

00:46:37.520 in talking about what happened out there and then that tape just just so people know what they were

00:46:43.220 saying was whoa got him you can see the infrared locking in on this thing uh it's a fast moving

00:46:47.720 target oh my gosh dude wow look at that thing you can hear their their wonder and what the hell this

00:46:52.640 is even though these are trained pilots who as you point out can can spot you know a mig and so on from

00:46:57.900 all this distance away they know what it is they said that um the objects had no visible engine

00:47:05.260 or infrared exhaust plumes but could reach 30 000 feet and hypersonic speeds he said with the speeds we

00:47:12.440 observed 12 hours in the air is 11 hours longer than we would expect given the energy required to

00:47:18.660 keep an aircraft in the air like they were going so fast they should have been out of if it were

00:47:22.980 something we understood they should have been fallen out of the sky in an hour but they they stayed up

00:47:27.520 there for 12 hours straight he said the object showed up at 30 000 feet at 20 000 feet even sea level

00:47:33.180 they could accelerate they could slow down they could hit hypersonic speeds one pilot set his plane to merge

00:47:38.720 with one of the things flying a thousand feet below it he said he should have been able to see it with

00:47:42.200 his helmet cam but he couldn't even though his radar was telling him it was there a few days later a

00:47:47.540 training missile on his jet locked onto the object his infrared cam picked it up as well but he said

00:47:52.080 i couldn't see it visually then later with his eyes uh saw a craft fly between him and his wingman

00:47:58.420 east of virginia beach saying something flew between them right past the cockpit a hundred feet apart

00:48:03.140 uh over the atlantic he said it looked like a sphere encasing a cube and graves said this convinced me

00:48:09.820 this was not a drone this was not a government a u.s government technology because the government

00:48:16.520 would not have flown such a thing with fighter pilots training in that area it wouldn't have

00:48:20.880 endangered our own people uh like that so that's actually pretty persuasive to me that

00:48:26.500 well our government wouldn't be doing wouldn't have been doing that you know something else megan too

00:48:31.420 that most people don't know not only is ryan graves a phenomenal fighter pilot he happens to be an

00:48:37.120 aerospace engineer so you know this is somebody who looks at things very critically very scientifically

00:48:43.500 he understands aircraft uh probably better than most people you know frankly in the united states

00:48:51.080 not only does he know how to fly them but he also knows how they work from a physics perspective

00:48:55.600 so when someone of that caliber tells you what they're observing um you know that's that's even

00:49:02.040 another degree of of credibility and not only credibility but you know i i take take their

00:49:08.440 opinions on what they're seeing i take it to heart because it's being backed up by electro-optical

00:49:13.880 data it's being backed up by radar data it's not just one time seeing something it's it's multiple in

00:49:19.420 fact to the point now where if you talk to people on on certain boats like the recent incidents on the

00:49:24.340 u.s omaha and the uss kid um you know half of the sailors will will laugh when you ask them this

00:49:30.340 question they're like oh you're talking about the ufos yeah we see them all the time i mean it's

00:49:34.980 kind of like the worst kept secret at this point and and you're absolutely right it's it's it's you

00:49:40.180 know when you have an elected if i'm not going to go into details but if you have an elected official

00:49:43.920 you know i know sometimes they laugh and going back to this where you had said that sometimes people

00:49:47.740 will laugh i don't think it's funny that there are aircraft flying over a restricted u.s airspace

00:49:53.720 you know there's a reason why we have controlled airspace and and look at washington dc can you

00:49:58.220 imagine if these things were trying to buzz the white house or the capitol building i i don't

00:50:02.520 think it'd be a laughing matter anymore and and let's not forget that these these pilots are

00:50:07.000 encountering these things not too far off the coast of washington dc so i i i think we do need to look

00:50:13.860 at this are they lou might they be might they be buzzing that was one of my questions if if you can't

00:50:18.840 always see them with the naked eye you can only have the infrared pick them up what maybe they are

00:50:23.480 outside of the white house or over the capitol or right outside of my building in midtown manhattan

00:50:27.900 how do we know they're not megan we don't and that's that's the problem here and this is why i

00:50:33.140 think folks like marco rubio are doing a tremendous job politics aside this is a non-political issue

00:50:39.820 and he's made that very clear and some other leaders now in the senate have decided to come forward

00:50:44.380 step forward and and follow his lead because they're just as just as interested and concerned and

00:50:50.140 curious about this um and i i think that takes a lot of i think i think that takes a lot of courage

00:50:55.520 because they have a lot to lose the same thing that that it goes with journalists you know politicians

00:51:00.540 have a lot riding on the line and the last thing they want to do is be perceived as being uh you know

00:51:05.960 mentally incompetent or or or crazy and so but wait but but wouldn't we have actively by this point

00:51:13.320 tried to figure out whether these crafts whatever they are were near the white house or the capitol

00:51:18.520 building or the pentagon like wouldn't we have unleashed this infrared technology in those areas

00:51:22.800 to know you know i i have to be very careful to speak on behalf of the government um i'm no longer

00:51:28.700 working for the u.s government uh in a in a civilian capacity um as a government civilian so i i don't want

00:51:36.880 to answer on behalf of what the government might or might not be doing or the task force certainly it is

00:51:41.860 a concern for for me and i suspect it's a concern which is for for the congress which is why you have

00:51:48.060 this 180 day report uh that is that is now due because it is a concern and possibly even for the

00:51:54.400 department of defense because now you have a dod inspector general evaluation an official evaluation

00:52:00.480 underway on how the pentagon has handled this this topic over the last three years so i i do i think

00:52:06.640 people share your concern i think there's this this underlying realization that uh-oh maybe we drop the

00:52:13.320 ball here and we probably need to start taking a better look at this hmm i mean because that's

00:52:19.020 what's really interesting right if they're everywhere if they're not just bothering our military or over

00:52:24.060 the seas on the atlantic coast or the pacific coast because you know the the 2004 incident was off of san

00:52:29.200 diego you know if they're all across the united states and if they're observing and on a ubiquitous

00:52:37.460 way then it's highly alarming and then it's like wait what on earth could how large is it how vast is

00:52:45.120 it how look what exactly do they know and who are they right because it's like right from your

00:52:51.520 observations these are not manned crafts right like there's no evidence that we perceive that somebody's

00:52:57.900 flying these things well we don't have evidence that that that a human is because the the forces inside

00:53:04.500 the technology seems to be beyond our our grasp and therein lies another another perplexing question

00:53:10.480 you know again megan you you say something that i think is very interesting in your audience

00:53:14.940 i think i suspect there may be a few in your audience saying well we don't have enough data to

00:53:19.160 know if this is a threat or not and and you know what that's a valid that's a valid point but if i may

00:53:24.040 share a quick analogy with you um megan yeah i know you said you you live in manhattan and i'm not

00:53:29.320 going to ask you where but may i ask you the question uh do you do you lock your front door

00:53:34.460 at night before you you you retire for the evening and go to bed yes okay and i think most people do

00:53:40.260 just i know i know i do and most people i think will probably do that as a just out of out of due

00:53:45.020 diligence and caution and some might even go a little bit further lock your windows make sure

00:53:49.700 they're secure at night and even turn on your alarm let's say one morning you wake up to have a nice

00:53:54.340 hot cup of coffee or tea downstairs and as you walk downstairs there are muddy boot prints in your

00:54:00.380 living room carpet and that weren't there the night before and despite uh you and by the way

00:54:06.500 nothing's been taken no one's been hurt nothing's out of place but despite you locking the doors and

00:54:10.980 the windows and turning on the alarm the night before there are now muddy boot prints in your living

00:54:15.620 room so my question to you is is that a threat and i think most people would respond by saying well it

00:54:22.460 could be if it wanted to be so i better figure out how those boot prints how those boot prints got into

00:54:26.640 my living room this is the same thing when it comes to u.s controlled airspace we have a responsibility

00:54:32.500 in our national security apparatus to protect and defend our national borders that is that is part of

00:54:38.500 our charter and when you have something that can fly if you will uh inside your home or in this case

00:54:45.480 the united states or controlled u.s airspace we don't know what it is we don't know how it got there we have

00:54:50.680 no idea how it operates and yet there it is i think most people would agree at that point it's a

00:54:57.280 national security issue threat well maybe not is it displaying any type of overt hostilities i don't

00:55:03.800 know but from a national security perspective for us to determine if something is a threat there's

00:55:08.300 really two two parts of a calculus it's very simple it's capabilities versus intent well we have now

00:55:15.200 seen some of these capabilities through the five observables but we have no idea of its intent

00:55:21.500 so there's no way we can say definitively one way or the other that it's not a threat so i think we are

00:55:27.640 we are doing the right thing by looking into this topic i mean of course i'm thinking of like the movie

00:55:33.600 independence day that there will be a day in which the crafts have enough information that they do

00:55:39.420 whatever it is they're planning on doing if there is some central planning that's the worst case scenario

00:55:43.900 that this is some you know some other some other planet that some some being from another planet

00:55:49.000 operating crafts that you know they mean to come interfere with we little earthlings at some point

00:55:55.680 is that possible is that well let me is that on the table sure well i don't know in the way the

00:56:03.020 hollywood portrays it but let me give you some real scenarios uh first of all talking about the nimitz

00:56:08.140 when that tic tac uh was engaging dave fravor and all of a sudden disappeared over the horizon

00:56:14.060 within five seconds when they reacquired the target 60 miles away do you know where that target was

00:56:20.480 where the tic tac was it was at the at the cap point this is a for dave fravor and his crew this

00:56:26.740 this tic tac somehow anticipated where dave fravor and alex dietrich were supposed to be in their

00:56:33.700 aircrafts for their for the next waypoint and that by the way so explain that to me that i don't know

00:56:38.980 what a cap point is so that this is where dave and alex were about to go yes this is a pre-arranged

00:56:44.520 location that is inside the aircraft's avionics that is a it's secure uh it's encrypted and in

00:56:52.160 essence um this is when you're flying an aircraft you have these pre-designated points that you're

00:56:57.140 going to go to and that's not broadcast it's not like on a radio system where everybody knows where

00:57:01.380 you're supposed to go that that's that's very sensitive information that's that's how you

00:57:05.260 prosecute a war and yet somehow this thing anticipated 60 miles away within five seconds

00:57:11.820 where dave fravor and alex were going to be in fact the the nimitz popped back on the radio and said sir

00:57:17.160 you're not going to believe this but this thing is waiting for you at your cap point so that is you're

00:57:22.420 talking about some next level technology furthermore we have absolute government reporting on these things

00:57:28.320 interfering with our nuclear strike capabilities now think about that for a moment imagine one of

00:57:33.400 these things flying over a nuclear silo and and and disabling our ability to defend ourselves and even

00:57:41.220 more scary in russia they had incidents where these things actually turned them on so this is well it

00:57:48.220 isn't yeah this is this is this is my frustration because this information is already known to the u.s

00:57:54.560 government why why have we waited this long to start looking into this topic taboo and stigma aside

00:58:01.360 i i think certainly we need to look at this from a national security perspective what can i can i just

00:58:07.060 ask you um some specifics on that cap point thing so how long would it take a fighter jet like the one

00:58:12.680 um that fravor and alex were flying to get 60 miles well at supersonic speeds which is mach 1

00:58:20.780 you're looking at roughly 760 some miles an hour at sea level uh it takes you probably about six seconds to fly

00:58:28.380 one mile when you are when you're traveling uh at those speeds um this went not one mile but it went 60 miles

00:58:37.320 in the same time so you're looking at speeds that are that are exceedingly faster than anything we have and

00:58:45.360 furthermore um you're looking at it without any type of signature there's no sonic boom there's no

00:58:51.400 contrail uh there's it's just here now and now all of a sudden boom it reappears 60 miles away

00:58:59.460 how do we know how do we know it was the same craft that reappeared 60 miles away maybe it was you know

00:59:04.280 if they saw so many in 2015 they were saying there's so many maybe it was a twin well it's certainly

00:59:10.220 possible uh but the the princeton radar and the e2 hawkeye were fairly convinced it was the same

00:59:16.380 one they were tracking it uh and they were they were putting all of their effort if you will into

00:59:21.220 tracking this this one object so uh there is a a comprehensive investigation on the nimitz incident

00:59:26.940 actually i think some of it some of it may even be public at this point i don't know for sure

00:59:31.540 uh but you can see for yourself the the the information in the summary there is a comprehensive

00:59:37.420 summary on this that is i think got leaked online um and and this is is now uh unclassified

00:59:43.980 well can you explain what what is hypersonic weaponry if we're gonna entertain for a bit

00:59:49.820 longer the russians and the chinese and not some alien body you know otherworldly body whatever

00:59:57.000 something not domestic or you know known to us already as a as an established government

01:00:01.660 what is hypersonic weaponry sure so hypersonics is defined by those speeds of mach 5 or above so mach 1

01:00:11.200 is is is speed of sound um so five times the speed of sound now we do have aircraft and we have do have

01:00:19.380 some some weapon systems that that can go that fast and so do our adversaries but but there's not a

01:00:24.720 whole lot of them and these things fly in very straight lines because you can imagine at that speed

01:00:29.780 think about being in the 747 you mentioned earlier when you want to when you want to turn right into

01:00:35.760 albuquerque you know it's it's a slow steady turn um because anything too sharp you're gonna start

01:00:42.320 pressing uh your your passengers up against uh up against the wall um well the same holds true with

01:00:48.440 this if as i said before if you want to go ahead and and do a right angle turn in an sr 71 doing

01:00:55.040 3200 miles an hour it takes you roughly the state of you know half the state of ohio to do it um so

01:01:01.460 these things are not doing 3200 miles an hour they're doing 6 000 8 000 13 000 miles an hour and

01:01:08.820 they're doing it in low earth atmosphere so what does that mean well lower at low earth atmosphere

01:01:14.480 to a to a to a fast moving object might as well be water it's it's very dense we as human beings don't

01:01:20.180 experience air if you will as being dense but but it actually is it's it's it's it's it's a quite

01:01:25.400 dense solution and you have these big aircraft that's why airplanes can fly because that that

01:01:30.080 density if you will uh there's a there's a difference on the wings between the top side and the bottom

01:01:35.300 side and you have lift but if you want to go that fast um you have to have very special technology to

01:01:41.960 do it and furthermore uh there are our signatures and the signatures include uh for example heat

01:01:47.880 ablation off the front of the aircraft you talk about atmospheric ionization the stripping of the

01:01:52.920 electrons that's why when the space shuttle comes in you have this plasma on the bottom of the

01:01:58.120 spacecraft that is because the friction is is literally ionizing the air beneath the spacecraft

01:02:04.440 as it's coming in these don't have any of those associated signatures there's no there's no atmospheric

01:02:10.780 ionization there's no heat ablation there's no contrail there's no sonic boom there's just nothing

01:02:16.060 and for us to to to understand that is really a different paradigm if you will of of where we are

01:02:25.700 today because everything we have that can go fast first of all it can't go that fast certainly not in

01:02:31.760 low earth atmosphere and second of all always has an associated signature and we're just not seeing

01:02:37.340 those signatures all right so the sixty four thousand dollar question then do you believe these are

01:02:43.320 crafts being controlled from some entity beyond earth so megan that is a an absolute great question

01:02:52.380 as well and if i may just for a moment because i want to be i want to be comprehensive with this

01:02:56.940 answer and i don't want to simply say yes or no as human beings we are we are what scientists often

01:03:03.560 call cardiosocial animals and what that means is for the first you know nine months of our existence

01:03:08.800 or whatnot we're spent in our mother's womb and we hear our mother's heartbeat and as a result of that

01:03:13.840 we tend to look at things in extremes and if you if somebody were to ask you are you hot or are you cold

01:03:19.460 you know uh up or down left or right good or bad black or white um we tend to look at things like that

01:03:25.940 in a very binary sense because we're human beings but in reality mother nature in the universe

01:03:31.900 isn't isn't a doesn't work off binary uh it's far more complex and so i've often told people this

01:03:38.560 could be from outer space it could be inner space or the space in between and what do i mean by that

01:03:43.360 well we now know through through quantum physics that the universe is far more complex than we ever

01:03:48.280 thought and the bottom line is that we are now recognizing there are realities all around us

01:03:53.840 that we don't as a human being we can't interface with for example if you were to go out on a starry

01:03:59.460 night and look at the beautiful sky you'd see a lot of pretty stars but if you take a radio telescope

01:04:05.100 and look at that same sky all of a sudden everything looks different you're now seeing an infrared and

01:04:09.780 ultraviolet now you're seeing nebulas so so there there are realities all around us you and i having

01:04:15.320 this very conversation there are wi-fi signals coursing through your body there's amfm signals there's

01:04:20.520 radar signals coming in from the airport there's cosmic radiation coming in from the cosmos and there's

01:04:25.140 neutrinos coming in from the sun just completely bathing us and yet we can't interact with it and

01:04:31.140 the reason is because we have only five fundamental senses if you will to judge our reality in our

01:04:36.320 universe and so it's not it's in essence to make this short 99 of the universe we can't even see or

01:04:44.320 interact with and yet it's real so is it possible that these are these things are from outer space

01:04:49.780 sure but it's just as possible that these things could be just as natural to earth as we are and

01:04:54.960 we're just not a point now technologically where we can interact maybe these things are from under

01:04:59.200 the ocean and and this is why i think we need to approach this topic with all options on the table

01:05:04.240 until they're no longer on the table we have to be careful to go down that rabbit hole prematurely that

01:05:09.820 these are from outer space because it could be but it could also be something very different one of

01:05:15.880 my colleagues said something that i think is very interesting we spend millions of dollars each year

01:05:21.860 trying to find microbial life on mars a lot of money is spent through the seti program to to search for

01:05:28.860 technosignatures radio technosignatures by the way in our own milky way but this earth has been here for

01:05:35.260 a really long time is it possible that some sort of intelligent life found us first and i think these are

01:05:41.040 all possibilities we we have to and at the end of the day it could be foreign and adversarial too so

01:05:45.640 you know to come back to if you will earth so to speak forgive the the pun here um it could very

01:05:51.420 well be a terrestrial explanation and this is why it's so important we have a a conversation about this

01:05:56.440 it has to include not only our national security apparatus and our intelligence community but i think

01:06:01.040 it needs to include faa and noaa i think we need to bring in nasa they've stepped up to the plate

01:06:05.940 thank goodness i think yeah they're doing that yeah i think academics and scientists we all need

01:06:11.440 to have part of this conversation because it may be a much bigger much more profound question just

01:06:17.520 simply it's either from earth or not you're you're that was a fascinating answer first of all but

01:06:24.960 second of all your your notion that maybe they found us first you know we're all trying to explore

01:06:30.180 mars maybe they've they've already found us and maybe they've been here for a long long time

01:06:33.520 reminds me of all the guff i give my husband doug for watching all these shows on ancient aliens

01:06:38.060 because i mean if it involves world war ii and aliens he will watch it if like i come out of the

01:06:43.900 bathroom after washing my face at night and he's just surfing guaranteed that's where he's gonna land

01:06:49.200 and it's fun to mock but he's like now you take me seriously when he saw me doing all my research for

01:06:54.720 this because who the hell knows but i love the the notion that look yes could be could be from

01:07:01.000 another planet some sort of controlled force from another planet but it could be some sort of force

01:07:05.760 from our own planet which we purport to understand but do not megan the universe is wondrous and complex

01:07:13.380 you know there were many times in our this is not this is maybe a paradigm moment for us now and i'll

01:07:19.120 just i'll just say this um this is not new to to human beings we have faced these pivotal moments in

01:07:25.720 our in our in as a species whether it was first crawling out of the cave and looking at the sun

01:07:31.600 or standing on a on a sandy beach and looking at the horizon and it took one person to say you know

01:07:36.640 what i'm gonna sail over the horizon and everybody of course said well there's sea monsters out there

01:07:42.380 the world is flat you're gonna fall off and it turns out you know that that that we are here because

01:07:47.940 someone took that chance and and it turns out that there are sea monsters there there are there are great

01:07:53.120 white sharks and there's blue whales and there's a giant squid of the pacific but we now realize

01:07:57.440 they're not really monsters they're just they're just part of part of our our world part of our

01:08:01.980 environment part of nature part of our reality and maybe it turns out this is very much the same thing

01:08:07.080 maybe we're standing on a sandy beach yet again looking to the horizon and this is simply just another

01:08:12.400 horizon for for for our species oh it's it's exciting to think about i want to pick up on one of the

01:08:20.640 things you mentioned because this is kind of cool to think about that possibly this could all be ocean

01:08:25.760 based that it's funny because a couple days ago my little seven-year-old came home and said mom do

01:08:29.940 you know that we only know five percent of our ocean we're only familiar with five percent of our oceans

01:08:35.420 and of course my response was where'd you learn that right it's like some stupid youtube thing or is

01:08:40.280 that in school she said she's right yeah okay i believe it and and that is the theorist some believe

01:08:46.760 that there's a reason this keeps happening over the oceans because there's some sort of a force a base

01:08:53.120 a power deep down in the oceans and the things are coming up from there as opposed to down from

01:09:02.060 the atmosphere what do you what do you make of that it's certainly a possibility again all options on the

01:09:07.420 table there is certainly anecdotal information that suggests there there is a relationship between

01:09:11.560 between bodies of water and these these uap uh we we have seen that there are some theories now that

01:09:17.360 are that are being looked at uh you know pretty diligently um i your daughter's absolutely right

01:09:23.040 we know more about the surface of the moon than we do our own oceans um it's it's it's very deep

01:09:29.300 it's very hostile environment the pressures are enormous and uh you know we we've if we're lucky if

01:09:36.220 if once a decade we could we can send something down to the deepest parts of our oceans like the

01:09:40.500 mariana's trench um it's just it's just it's too hostile down there and if we do go down there

01:09:46.860 we're down there for about a minute and a half and we've got to come back up so um it is certainly

01:09:51.860 possible and this is again why we need to get our best and and brightest to to look at this because at

01:09:58.820 the end of the day your your seven-year-old daughter might have a better answer or son i'm sorry

01:10:03.640 your seven-year-old son may have a better answer than than than we do in the department of defense

01:10:09.040 and and you know this is why i swim in the pool lou this is why i stick to the pool i can see

01:10:15.420 everything that's down there i'll tell you megan we actually have ufo free zones at my house um

01:10:20.200 because of my work in this for so many years um there are are places in the house that if i go into

01:10:26.220 i literally have to turn off my phone and i cannot utter the the three letters of ufo or uap um at all

01:10:32.900 well let's so let's talk about being able to utter that stuff and not because there's another piece of

01:10:37.940 this story that's a little bit more political that i confess i don't know that much about but

01:10:42.300 maybe you can educate me in my audience um first of all how is it that you and these fighter pilots

01:10:49.400 you know graves and the others and i know that you you eventually teamed up with christopher

01:10:54.780 mellon who is the deputy assistant secretary defense for intel under clinton and w um and and

01:11:01.220 this is the guy who acquired those three navy videos uh and i i think leaked them to the new york times

01:11:06.500 so how is it that any of this is able to be discussed openly right like why are you allowed

01:11:13.520 to talk to me well because i haven't violated my non-disclosure agreement i still have it you

01:11:18.900 haven't saying all this stuff is okay no ma'am i have i haven't still have my ts security clearance

01:11:23.920 um i have to be very careful of that in order to first of all and what the american people should

01:11:28.600 know is that the classified information is classified for only two reasons and that's to

01:11:33.780 protect sources and methods and in fact it is illegal for the u.s government to classify things

01:11:38.380 to save it from embarrassment or to try to hide money or operations or activities or um it's it's

01:11:45.220 there are very few exceptions where the government can keep something truly secret from the american

01:11:49.940 people uh and i won't go into those right now but when i was in the atip program look you you can't

01:11:56.720 classify physics you can't classify mathematics and you can't classify the fact that there's something in

01:12:02.420 our skies that we don't know what it is that's not a classifiable thing that you can do um we we know that

01:12:10.860 north korea has has uh nuclear capabilities we know the fact that there are terrorist organizations

01:12:16.540 out there that that are trying to to hurt us uh these are things that you can't keep secret because

01:12:22.760 there's no authority to do so there is a very strict adherence to what we call an original

01:12:27.340 classification authority an oca and also a security classification guide if you want to prosecute

01:12:34.000 somebody for let's say edward snowden for example for leaking information you first have to prove

01:12:39.360 that the information being leaked is classified and in order to prove that it's classified it has to

01:12:44.480 fall within a classification guide so nothing that i have discussed with you or anybody else in public

01:12:50.440 violates that security classification they haven't come after you at all then they're not oh no they

01:12:55.160 have no they're they have for sure there's some people that are very upset with me for sure they

01:13:00.000 have tried to to question that well because i think i've made their their their life very uncomfortable

01:13:07.180 there's a lot of scrutiny going on it was just revealed that my my uh my emails uh they're supposed

01:13:13.220 to be retained for for indefinite period of time were recently destroyed by the pentagon um there is

01:13:19.900 definitely an active campaign effort within certain elements of the pentagon and let me let me

01:13:25.140 be clear here and just and just to reiterate before you before you make that point just to

01:13:28.380 reiterate your program advanced aerospace threat identification program was a secretive pentagon

01:13:34.260 program studying these uaps so it when you say the pentagon and your emails this is that's who you

01:13:39.780 were working for so go go ahead yes there are elements that were classified and there were elements

01:13:43.920 that were were not classified um but let me let me just be clear here that the pentagon writ large in the

01:13:49.760 department of defense is an amazing organization full of amazing human beings that just want to do

01:13:55.140 they're loyal and you know they they they have kids they take to soccer and they pay their mortgages

01:13:59.900 and they're true patriots they've sacrificed for for their fellow fellow citizens but there are some

01:14:06.320 elements in the pentagon and i think the the dod evaluation ig evaluation will probably root some of

01:14:11.900 this out at some point there are certain pockets of uh within the pentagon that have confused

01:14:16.880 responsibility uh for privilege and it is my understanding that they have have gone above and beyond to try

01:14:24.260 to discredit me and try to uh if you will jeopardize my security clearance but why would they do that

01:14:30.500 help me understand what what the motivation is why are they mad well uh because it's it it doesn't

01:14:37.520 usually turn out well for people who decide to break rank um i was i was very successful in the pentagon

01:14:43.300 uh all my value i was atop of my game i was managing uh two very sensitive portfolios um and uh you know

01:14:52.040 i decided to to leave the department ironically enough i i left the department out of loyalty not disloyalty

01:14:58.440 but it was i think um by by some people in the pentagon they were very upset they were very upset that i decided

01:15:05.780 to have this conversation the way i did and i don't think so even though you were allowed to talk about it

01:15:10.860 they didn't want you to of course yeah because it's embarrassing now i mean look what the pentagon's

01:15:16.060 doing now right this since the last three years they've had to acknowledge the videos are real

01:15:19.640 that uaps are real that they have established a uap task force that classified briefings are

01:15:25.380 provided to congress there's now 180 day report that's due to congress and the american people at

01:15:30.500 the unclassified level uh other countries are getting on board now wanting to work with us um you know

01:15:35.980 that was done by force the pentagon under its own volition at least the certain elements in there

01:15:41.400 i don't think we're very receptive to this and you know now they're put in a position where they are

01:15:46.780 some of them anyways are begrudgingly being forced to to look into this topic so so walk me through it

01:15:54.060 because now my understanding was you were doing the program 2008 2010 you started running it 2012 the

01:15:59.440 funding was eliminated so just quickly did it stop then in 2012 absolutely not and this is one of the

01:16:05.900 the the statements misstatements that some people have made in the pentagon and they've painted the

01:16:10.800 pentagon in a corner which now they have to find a way out but there were a lot of things that that

01:16:15.680 were said that just are simply not accurate or or true um the program continued till the day i left

01:16:22.120 in october 2017 yeah in fact there was a second tranche of funding that that came through from senator

01:16:28.080 reed i think it was about 10 million uh the problem was is that the language was was was a little bit

01:16:33.880 too vague and it wound up being taken by another office uh in the usdi to to do some other work

01:16:39.940 not related to uaps but we continue to to work in fact all the the effort you see now and the recent

01:16:46.020 information on go fast and the gimbal video and the uss roosevelt all occurred after uh the pao office

01:16:52.760 said that atip was shut down look we we never received orders to shut down when you are a soldier you

01:16:58.700 are asked to guard your post and you guard your post until you are given orders that relieve you

01:17:03.260 well those relief orders never came and i was still briefing senior leadership till the day i left the

01:17:08.340 pentagon so it's very distant ma'am i i left the pentagon because i i have my frustration i i had the

01:17:15.880 honor and privilege to serve with a gentleman named jim mattis this is a person if if you ever have a

01:17:21.040 chance to meet him which i'm sure you probably have um he is he is he's absolute national treasure for

01:17:27.320 our country uh he is a scholar he is a warrior he's a hero and i worked with him in afghanistan

01:17:33.640 very closely and and the one thing i learned about this man is that he is a man who wants more

01:17:38.280 information and not less and when i was at the pentagon and he became the secretary of defense

01:17:43.020 and i was in my position um i i he needed to be briefed he needed to be briefed that you know real

01:17:48.960 taxpayer money was being spent on this on this portfolio we're having real findings and furthermore we

01:17:54.720 were having people in the field i would literally receive an email i remember very clearly from from

01:17:59.920 very one senior navy official saying lou we we need your help we've got these things all over the ship

01:18:05.000 can't keep people below deck forever what you know what what do we do and so i kept briefing the seniors

01:18:10.980 but they did not want to brief general mattis and i suspect hindsight being 2020 they were trying to

01:18:17.840 protect him this is a man who's got an incredible reputation very serious and i think they were worried

01:18:23.580 about that if the media were to find out he was briefed on ufos it could hurt it could hurt him

01:18:29.760 it could hurt the department and what we were trying to do also there was it was a new administration we

01:18:35.040 didn't have all our senior leadership in place at the time the problem is that this this topic is not

01:18:40.760 like a topic of fine wine where the longer we keep a cork on it the better it gets this is a topic in my

01:18:46.300 opinion that's like rotten maybe vegetables in your refrigerator and the longer it stays there the more

01:18:51.080 it's going to smell and i thought it was a liability that that that the boss wasn't being

01:18:55.100 informed he needed to know and so ultimately i resigned because i knew they wouldn't be able to

01:19:00.720 stop my resignation memo so i i addressed my resignation memo directly to him in hopes that

01:19:06.320 he would finally be able to know the serious nature of this program and that that something needed to be

01:19:11.620 done was that the first i don't know damn to break in bringing this all out public because

01:19:17.720 i didn't really know the story that well of christopher mellon hooking up with you and then

01:19:21.820 mellon taking these declassified videos and leaking them to the new york times so that they would write

01:19:27.340 an article that ultimately would help make it acceptable to talk about i mean if that times

01:19:31.680 article hadn't come out talking about these videos in 2015 and the nimitz no four maybe we wouldn't have

01:19:37.180 this this report coming out maybe marco rubio wouldn't have paid attention so it all flowed in a way that

01:19:43.200 was helpful for the public knowledge but is that is that how it got started you did a resignation memo

01:19:48.720 you connected with mellon he leaked the videos and you know bob's your uncle you know honestly i was

01:19:55.680 ready to go work at walmart uh when i resigned um you know i left a lot behind because i i believed in

01:20:02.340 in in what i was doing and i suspect that that mr mellon feels the same way i if you ever have a chance to

01:20:09.420 to meet mr mellon you will you will very quickly realize he's he's not your average bear um he he is

01:20:16.260 he's truly by definition a brilliant human being he's very humble uh and uh he's he's just he's one

01:20:24.600 of the greatest strategic minds i've ever had a chance to work with and believe me i've worked with

01:20:29.340 with quite a few um and so when i left he said hey lu you know why don't we why don't we think about

01:20:35.820 working together if you are this committed to the cause which i know you are uh let's see if we can

01:20:41.820 if we can work together and and and go private and work together to try to bring awareness to this

01:20:47.580 topic and so that's when i joined a small if you will motley crew of individuals uh and uh spent a

01:20:54.380 couple years with a little organization called uh to the stars academy and um you know we i think

01:21:00.040 we're able to to to move the ball forward incrementally and then uh later on chris and

01:21:05.120 i decided with a few others to to to go in a different direction and we're still still pushing

01:21:11.160 pushing this this conversation at the end of the day megan it's it's really not up to me to to tell

01:21:17.200 average americans my my fellow americans my you know my neighbors and my friends what to think about

01:21:22.980 this my my job is simply very simple collect the information and then provide it to the jury and let the

01:21:28.980 jury make a make an informed decision um and you know again at this point i think yeah the pentagon

01:21:34.720 keeps trying to keep things out of evidence and we want to see the evidence but of course when when

01:21:39.020 it comes to a court of law you have to establish a you know a basis for the evidence that it's

01:21:42.580 reliable and so on a foundation but that's what you put a pilot in for to say this is how it went

01:21:46.980 down and these are my witnesses and this is the this is my radar picture let's so so question to you

01:21:51.680 because it does seem like there's been some fallout it seems like um i know that you you had said i think

01:21:58.640 it was on tucker that the pentagon was waging a smear campaign against you and that there's

01:22:03.640 separately there's an you mentioned this to me there's a department of defense ig investigation

01:22:09.480 that's where you investigate yourself the inspector general of your particular administrative agency

01:22:14.560 investigate something that you know you allegedly did wrong within dod so is that what what is the

01:22:21.520 ig investigating at dod their their laxity on this and also why do you believe there's a smear campaign

01:22:28.600 against you like i know you say that they're not happy you spoke up but what are they doing to you

01:22:33.240 sure okay so uh the first question is as far as the ig evaluation there's there's several things going

01:22:39.340 on in parallel right now there's an ig evaluation that uh was i think self-initiated probably at the

01:22:46.100 beheads of some people uh in in the congressional committees um i think there are enough people

01:22:52.000 right now in the pentagon that realize there's going to be some some hard questions being asked

01:22:55.600 here very soon and and they better have answers uh and that is specifically why do you keep flip-flopping

01:23:01.160 on this issue why do you keep keep saying yes and no and yes and no and first a tip was about ufos then

01:23:06.040 it wasn't about ufos okay now it is kind of about ufos and you know whatnot so i think that's that's

01:23:12.480 one piece of it the other piece is that i have initiated my own uh without going into detail um

01:23:18.380 uh ig we'll call it a review um because i i it's up to the the inspector general if they want to make

01:23:25.380 this an inquiry or an investigation so i i've i've lodged my own if you will request for a review on

01:23:31.200 very specific um actions that the pentagon it been let me let me rephrase that individuals in the

01:23:38.120 pentagon have taken against me um i i can't go into a lot of detail but to keep this very general

01:23:44.320 um they have said for the record uh several times initially they they admitted that i was part of the

01:23:50.720 program and then they started to about two years ago start to change their opinion and say well you

01:23:55.940 know lou really didn't have anything to do with it nothing to see here folks stop asking us questions

01:23:59.600 um and it wasn't until senator reed came out and and for the record said actually lou was in charge

01:24:05.240 of the program he did a great job uh and etc etc because of course he was a program sponsor

01:24:10.360 um that people realized that the pentagon hasn't been forthcoming and the last month alone there's

01:24:16.220 been a barrage of articles that have come out that have not only um shown the pentagon elements in the

01:24:22.800 pentagon have taken adverse action against me try to question and get me in trouble with my security

01:24:27.080 clearance uh but but furthermore now they have deleted all my emails um so despite uh keeping my

01:24:35.040 emails for for uh indefinitely as they are supposed to do uh because of specific categories of

01:24:41.740 information that i fall into um they're now deleted um so all my emails all my correspondence allegedly

01:24:47.700 are just gone and so hillary clinton blackberry situation yeah no yeah it seems yeah it seems kind

01:24:55.320 of odd and uh you know it's funny because i wrote a lot of emails to a lot of people so i suspect a lot

01:25:00.660 of those emails are still out there floating around um but anyways yeah there you go there's there's been

01:25:06.080 some specific uh actions taken against me and i i look i don't hold the whole pentagon responsible i

01:25:11.420 told you the pentagon in my opinion is a phenomenal organization and and and 99 of the time it just does

01:25:17.400 a phenomenal bang-up job but this there are some individuals who are are are particularly upset with

01:25:24.580 the way i left the department of defense i was i was threatened when i left i had certain individuals

01:25:29.300 tell me they were gonna uh call me crazy and they were gonna take my security clearance um it was it

01:25:34.980 was it was tough you know they did not want me to have this conversation and open i think they were

01:25:38.840 afraid of the stigma and taboo and this getting out that we were we were running a ufo program keep in

01:25:44.660 mind we spent decades after blue book telling the american people we didn't have a ufo program now we have

01:25:50.300 to come back and do a complete course reversal and say well oh actually yeah we did and think about the

01:25:56.140 liability right there's there's another issue here that if it turns out that these people are correct

01:26:02.800 who have been reporting these things and for whatever reason they were taken off flight status

01:26:06.800 because they were deemed psychologically unstable or they've lost their security clearance maybe

01:26:11.260 maybe lost a marriage maybe maybe a broken family maybe maybe wound up even being homeless

01:26:16.420 can you imagine the liability that would be incurred if it turns out that these people were correct and

01:26:22.840 were doing the right thing all along i can't even imagine project blue book was the the popular name

01:26:30.460 uh out of a trifecta of projects aimed to tackle the ufo topic by the u.s military there's there's

01:26:36.320 thousands and thousands of pages on it we're actually going to get into that with our next guest but

01:26:39.700 um this isn't as i understand it this is a sort of the older effort to look into ufos by the u.s

01:26:46.700 military um long before your uap project um but i i want to understand whether you think now given

01:26:56.560 the efforts that you say the pentagon is undertaken to smear you as somebody who's trying to speak

01:27:01.500 honestly about this we should be putting any stock into the report that's coming out in june because

01:27:07.080 this is what happened was the u.s senate decided the intel community uh committee ordered the director

01:27:13.640 of national intelligence and the secretary of defense to deliver a report on these uap sightings

01:27:19.460 by should come out by june 25th so should we put any trust in that given that there seems to be a

01:27:27.260 desire not to speak openly about it well i i've said this before megan it takes sometimes longer to

01:27:32.660 remodel your household kitchen than it does to put 180 day report to comprehensively inform congress by

01:27:39.740 the way at the unclassified level if this is a threat i mean we have to now go back 70 years i

01:27:45.800 mean let's look at the last time we had to do something like this the 9-11 commission report

01:27:49.880 it took almost three years to put that together yeah they're putting it together pretty quickly

01:27:54.220 well and of course we had covet right so how many of these people were even at work the last

01:27:59.000 six months to even do this work so i i think you know what's surprising to me is that it's still

01:28:04.440 uh an under it's an underfunded undermanned effort um we are i think we're trying to to plug this hole

01:28:13.140 now in the dam with a band-aid and and i don't think it's sufficient and i think the report is going

01:28:19.520 to probably come out and say yep there's some things out there we don't know what they are

01:28:23.140 we know it's not our technology it could be adversarial it could be something else uh and we're

01:28:29.500 going to need more time i i hope i hope that that we out of result of this 180 day report we realize

01:28:36.760 that we really need a far more enduring capability something far more comprehensive more representative

01:28:43.260 of a whole of government approach maybe maybe like a national laboratory think of this as a perhaps

01:28:49.000 a manhattan project but but hopefully for peaceful purposes i i do think that there is a tremendous

01:28:54.960 opportunity here on on you know one side of the argument can you imagine uh leapfrogging 100 000

01:29:02.340 years of human technical evolution all in all in one generation and and that's not far-fetched because

01:29:08.200 we saw that with the apollo missions we saw that with the great space race against then soviet union

01:29:13.260 where as a result of the space race you had over 6 000 separate industries come out as a result of that

01:29:20.740 we had led light bulbs we had cat scans we had all these things come out that really helped and

01:29:26.140 benefited humanity and continue to to help us so you know i i don't think it's all doom and gloom i think

01:29:32.600 we need to to approach this topic sensibly i think once we get rid of the tinfoil hats and and the silly

01:29:39.600 you know if you will water cooler talk about about you know aliens and stuff like that you know maybe we

01:29:46.840 can have a more serious conversation of what this really is and at the end of the day it may turn

01:29:51.320 out that you know some of that water cooler talk was accurate but but we're not going to know unless

01:29:55.660 we we decide to have a conversation and i i think i i want to commend you and i want to commend other

01:30:01.020 journalists because i know it's it's tough i know you're taking a risk believe me ask me how i know

01:30:05.880 because i took the same risk uh to have this conversation but i i do think i think history is going to look

01:30:11.160 back and smile upon you and and others who decided to to make this uh at least part of the conversation

01:30:18.200 and i think your audience has a lot to do with this as well because your audience if they're listening

01:30:23.700 to this that means that they're at least tangentially interested to some degree uh at least superficially

01:30:29.700 and that's good that curiosity should never be stifled my my recommendation to your audience is is to ask

01:30:36.400 the questions don't be afraid of it don't worry about the stigma and the taboo uh let's let's not

01:30:40.840 worry about that you know there was a time in the military i grew up as a product of the military

01:30:44.960 it seems silly now but you know of course we had this whole issue about gays in the military nobody

01:30:49.920 really at least no one i i worked with ever really cared um and it's not an issue anymore um i i think

01:30:55.820 once we remove the the the social stigma and taboo from this topic i think people are going to realize

01:31:02.440 that there's real science there there's there's there's really some good opportunity there and yes some

01:31:08.180 of it may be a little bit terrifying but remember the first time we we sailed over the horizon

01:31:12.260 that was pretty terrifying too um this is just part of our our our journey i think as a species

01:31:18.900 lou elizondo thank you so much it's been a pleasure megan it is truly my honor and privilege thank you so

01:31:25.980 very much thank you to you thank you to your wonderful audience uh happy to do this anytime thank

01:31:31.640 you for everything all the best and yes to be continued yes ma'am anytime john greenwald is

01:31:38.260 somebody who takes his information directly from the federal government and they have produced

01:31:42.600 millions of pages to him over the years on ufos or uaps so what have they said and what are john's

01:31:50.420 conclusions about what they're saying now that's next hey megan how are you i'm great how's it going

01:32:00.660 it's going good thank you i'm really excited about this thanks for having me me too okay please treat

01:32:06.000 me like the um dumb dumb i am when it comes to the history of this subject in our in our country we you

01:32:13.160 know we just finished up with lou elizondo who's talking about the military sightings and the more

01:32:16.940 recent stuff and the pentagon and so on but the history of it i'm i'm pretty clueless on i've heard

01:32:23.500 all the area 51 reports and why is always coming out of nevada and it's you know these sightings are

01:32:28.620 always in places where there's never a witness right like that's about as much as i know about

01:32:32.200 the history of this issue so you are a guy who just decided you're an information gatherer you're like

01:32:38.300 me you're a seeker and when you were very young you started hitting the government up with foia

01:32:43.200 requests to different government agencies just seeing what you could find out about things that

01:32:48.520 i guess struck your fancy was it always in the area of ufos or you know uaps what have you

01:32:55.120 you know when i started i was 15 and yes it was ufos but one of the toughest lessons i had to learn

01:33:02.980 with the u.s government especially with the freedom of information act is they take their time

01:33:07.640 and so what i did was i was just curious i never had any you know experience or anything like that

01:33:14.320 i just wanted to know the truth behind ufos but while i was waiting for documents to come because

01:33:19.500 they don't come overnight i was tackling every government secret you can imagine and here i am

01:33:24.560 25 years later uh there's more than 2.4 million pages that i've received from the u.s government and

01:33:32.620 yes ufos will always be one of my uh personal interests and fascinations but i pretty much

01:33:39.040 deal with everything so let me start broad on that do you believe i mean i think ufos are a

01:33:45.280 confirmed phenomenon whatever whatever you want to say they are uaps they exist there have been a lot

01:33:49.500 of reports of people seeing them whatever they may be but what do you believe is the source of these

01:33:55.060 things so after tackling again for 25 years any government secret you can imagine i've probably

01:34:02.280 tackled it what's fascinating to me is ufos has always been the most difficult but also the most

01:34:08.760 easily proven cover-up by the true definition of the word out of anything that i've tackled and i

01:34:15.300 think that that's what keeps me going after all this time in that the government has no explanation

01:34:21.280 for what this phenomena is we know it's real i mean again that doesn't mean it's alien but rather

01:34:26.820 the phenomena whatever it is is a mystery to the u.s military and to the u.s government that's not

01:34:32.940 conspiracy theory talk either that is by their own evidence that they will give you and so what i did

01:34:40.600 for for for this time is try and see exactly what they would give me what evidence do they have does it

01:34:48.920 prove the whole this is explainable there's nothing to the ufo phenomena whatever it may be or is there

01:34:55.140 something more and my conclusion is undeniably there's something more you can conclude it's

01:35:01.240 highly classified there are provable incidents where the u.s government and the intelligence community

01:35:06.940 will not legally give out information on ufos because if they did they consider it a threat to

01:35:12.780 national security classified at the highest levels top secret uh and again when you when you hear what

01:35:19.060 they say at a press podium over the years and that there's you know nothing to it and roswell's

01:35:24.600 explainable and project blue book which is what they kind of blanket called their investigation through

01:35:30.180 the 1940s 50s and 60s we did the investigation there's nothing to it well that's fine but the evidence

01:35:37.020 doesn't support what they have claimed for decades the evidence as espoused in their own documents

01:35:43.460 that you've been able to obtain that's correct yeah and i always stress that that there's nothing

01:35:49.040 leaked behind anything that i that i used to conclude that this is all stuff that in some cases fought for

01:35:56.200 years and years under the freedom of information act but it is all stuff that i got firsthand from the

01:36:02.140 u.s government or the u.s military why wouldn't they just be classifying anything that they thought

01:36:06.420 proved the existence of a problematic craft right why wouldn't it all have classified stamped on it and not

01:36:12.320 turned over to somebody like you in a foyer request that's a great question and and the answer to that is

01:36:18.500 a lot of it is still classified a lot of it does have that that top secret stamp on it that they will

01:36:24.980 not release the national security agency is a prime example that i have written proof that i have fought

01:36:30.080 for years and years now to get material from them and although i do have a stack of hundreds and hundreds

01:36:35.500 of pages from them on the ufo phenomena most of which should not exist if you listen to what they say

01:36:42.300 at the press podiums they still have a small stack of top secret material that they will not give

01:36:48.540 and again i fought for that for years uh the last being about how do you know it exists do they have

01:36:53.460 to do they have to tell you we have documents one through one thousand being withheld because

01:36:58.480 classified that's correct no you nailed it so they have to tell you when they deny something some

01:37:04.120 agencies will be a little bit more detailed than others but they will tell you we have either x amount

01:37:09.440 of pages or we are denying the material and they don't tell you how many pages uh for this reason

01:37:14.960 and this reason and that reason and again depending upon the agency some will tell you what the

01:37:19.820 classification is in the case of the national security agency they put it in black and white

01:37:24.640 it is top secret material uh it is 100 exempt from disclosure and they will not give it the topic

01:37:33.100 thought was what specifically so you know what what are they saying that in response to uh in a request

01:37:38.480 for ufo information so what you do with the foie is you try not to be too specific because you can

01:37:44.800 lose what you're going for but you also in turn can't be too too broad because then they'll reject it

01:37:50.720 so you have to kind of skirt the middle and so in this particular case i was going for all ufo information

01:37:57.520 that was collected by the national security agency so again you can you can get a hundred uh quite a

01:38:04.060 few hundreds of of pages i think the exact total is 900 and change but you can download all of those

01:38:09.760 uh many of which are still blacked out from top to bottom but in addition to those there are also

01:38:16.020 ones that are top secret that they will not release at all not a single word that they will release so

01:38:23.040 those are exempt and that they put in in detail in their letter to me hmm now you mentioned project

01:38:29.940 blue book uh touch on this very briefly with lou as well so this this as i understand it is the old

01:38:36.160 let's investigate whether we have ufos and what they are project by the u.s military you know but

01:38:40.900 decades and decades ago and there's a guy who did he run it dr hynek uh who i know you wrote about in

01:38:48.740 your book can you tell us what what was project blue book and who was dr hynek what happened with him

01:38:53.020 sure so project blue book is kind of the umbrella name for three different studies project sign

01:38:58.860 project grudge and ultimately project blue book 1947 to 1969 they did over 12 600 cases

01:39:06.400 and by the end of that 22 or so year study only 701 or so they claim 701 remained unidentified

01:39:15.560 dr j allen that's correct so it was headed by the u.s air force so around the late 1940s there was a

01:39:22.720 lot of uh problems there was a lot of issues when it came to people seeing these things in the skies

01:39:28.320 they couldn't explain it and neither could the military so that was kind of the the very nutshell

01:39:33.100 version of how it started because they needed to figure it out uh we were you know post world war ii

01:39:39.000 uh we were uh heavy tensions with the soviet union so we were fearful the the general public was fearful

01:39:46.420 so the military had to figure this out and as time went on that they had dr j allen hynek he was the

01:39:52.460 chief scientific advisor because the the military brass that was heading the program they knew that

01:39:58.860 they weren't qualified to look at this stuff the material they weren't scientists so they brought in

01:40:04.680 uh various consultants the most famous and and the top essentially the top scientist was dr j allen

01:40:11.640 heineck what's very interesting about him is that when he went in uh through the years he was very

01:40:18.180 much a skeptic he was out there essentially debunking everything in in news media stories he would do the

01:40:24.180 essentially press tours and he would speak on behalf of the u.s air force and say there's nothing to

01:40:30.180 this but we're continuing to investigate as the time went on he flipped he had seen enough on the inside

01:40:37.320 to eventually start pushing for reopening past cases and and this is all supported by documentation

01:40:43.620 uh to reopen past cases that they had closed because he felt that they weren't doing their due

01:40:48.920 diligence and by the end after 1969 he was so convinced that the phenomena was real he um after

01:40:57.300 the the project blue book closed came out started his own ufo organization and essentially was a full

01:41:03.960 turn from skeptic to believer so that to me sorry i was just gonna say one case that you wrote a book

01:41:11.060 about in your book that that really turned him was a was a 1964 encounter in new mexico what happened

01:41:18.920 there yeah so that was the socorro new mexico case and this was uh in 1964 where a police officer

01:41:25.420 uh in new mexico by the name of lonnie zamora uh was on a actual high-speed chase nothing related to ufos

01:41:33.220 and while chasing uh whomever he was chasing saw a craft of some kind ended up uh breaking off the

01:41:41.260 chase and pursuing this this craft he as the story goes had pulled over had seen this craft come in

01:41:49.900 land uh some some distance into a field that that he was looking at and he saw two beings come out of

01:41:58.600 this craft and walk on the ground then go back in the craft takes off and leaves well that sounds

01:42:05.220 like a pretty crazy story but to add to it what happened was they went out to the field where this

01:42:11.100 craft had landed they found impressions in the dirt they found scorch marks from the propulsion system

01:42:17.880 so whatever it was it was a three-dimensional object that that landed in this field and was there i mean

01:42:26.260 there was no there was no uh physical disproof of what he was saying meaning it wasn't a hallucination

01:42:33.600 rather there was physical proof of what he was saying which fully supported his story the the uh

01:42:41.240 air force investigated they could not identify what the craft was here we are in 2021 we still don't have

01:42:48.000 an answer and uh the police officer actually just recently died in the last five years or so

01:42:53.800 so he he was convinced that this was something much bigger and to dr j allen hynek after his

01:43:00.880 investigation ultimately determined there was much more to that case and the air force essentially just

01:43:06.780 didn't want to deal with it they wanted to explain ufos rather than investigate ufos and so that to me

01:43:15.960 that whole era was more about calming the nerves of the general public rather than actually figuring out

01:43:23.020 the mystery well it seems like the nerves were significant in the wake of roswell which also

01:43:28.500 happened in new mexico um i don't know 15 20 years prior to this right it was 1947 that's sort of the

01:43:36.180 beginning of when people i don't really understand roswell i just know people are like roswell and

01:43:40.040 it's supposed to be code for like lunatic ufo person right like i don't know what the hell roswell

01:43:45.100 is about or area 51 can you explain those sure uh sadly i don't know what the heck it's about either

01:43:50.280 and i don't think the general public will ever ultimately know what happened in roswell and what

01:43:55.260 i mean by that is you know here we are decades and decades later and although there's a lot of

01:44:01.200 uh pop culture popularity about it there's a lot of rumors about it there's even a lot of witnesses

01:44:06.200 uh many of which though have have died off but that came forward through the years and said that

01:44:11.140 there was a crash of a flying saucer there were alien bodies uh and essentially that was the dawn

01:44:16.920 of the ufo cover-up now will we ever ultimately prove that likely not i mean in the late 90s when

01:44:23.660 the air force was pushed yet again for them to explain it because as they were changing their

01:44:29.900 stories none of which lined up they changed their story about four different times over the decades on

01:44:34.720 roswell the most recent in 97 and at the end of the day during these investigations and trying to

01:44:40.780 again address the issue it was determined that many of the documents surrounding that incident

01:44:46.840 were destroyed anyway so with with that fact that was uncovered by the gao with that fact how do you

01:44:54.140 ever really come to a conclusion so you either believe the witnesses or you don't at this point

01:44:59.720 who basically said that a ufo crashed on their farm uh right and that the sheriff he contacted the

01:45:06.760 military and and then what happened according to you know whatever reports we have gleaned yeah when

01:45:12.720 jesse marcel who was the military officer who went out there essentially the original report that was

01:45:17.900 written was that they captured a flying saucer at roswell army airfield so it crashed on this person's

01:45:23.980 farm they went out they did this huge uh essentially debris pickup and that was the original first day one

01:45:32.120 press release within about 24 hours that was completely changed and they said it was a weather balloon

01:45:37.640 and that military officer jesse marcel uh had come out years later and said no i was essentially

01:45:44.200 forced to take those pictures what we saw was not a weather balloon this was something much much

01:45:49.380 different uh the the there's a famous photograph of him posing with the wreckage and the question mark

01:45:56.320 is was that the wreckage that they had went out and and retrieved and uh and he had said no

01:46:02.980 over the years his his story uh pretty much stayed consistent that the debris had uh what he kind

01:46:10.020 of described as uh characters or hieroglyphics on it so there was some type of writing that they

01:46:15.700 couldn't decipher it was definitely not a weather balloon so you have those types of witnesses that

01:46:21.140 were actually there sadly marcel has passed away but his daughter is still around she still talks about

01:46:27.300 what you know what um uh what he had seen and and uh and so when you when you look at that you realize

01:46:34.480 there is much more to the story but will we ever 100 definitively come to the conclusion it was alien

01:46:41.040 at this point probably not it's a lot of fun but i but i for me i view it as a stepping point

01:46:47.740 to then look at other possibilities and essentially how that cover-up unfolded after roswell because

01:46:54.040 the evidence proves that they wanted to cover this phenomena up alien or not it doesn't matter

01:47:00.220 but there was a concerted effort to cover it up why you're you know you ask a great question and

01:47:07.240 and there's there's a couple ways to look at it if it truly is connected to extraterrestrials and i'm not

01:47:13.180 here to say 100 i'm convinced but if it is that is a huge national national security problem because the

01:47:20.940 moment that america who is number one on the planet technologically military across the board i mean

01:47:27.580 we're the best of the best when we then come out and admit that we are not number one anymore that

01:47:34.060 these ufos are coming and going wherever and whenever they want that in itself will create a

01:47:40.120 1940s or 1950s type hysteria with the general public and i and i truly believe that because we feel safe and

01:47:47.720 secure within our borders but if all of a sudden if if there's this admission that there is something

01:47:53.260 else out there that we just can't control that that we don't we don't have any idea how to handle

01:47:58.480 it uh that that to me i think is one of the biggest potential national security risks the other part of it

01:48:06.260 is they may not know if or if not it's extraterrestrial and that's really being bantered about

01:48:12.280 right now because of a recent uh new york times article but let's say they truly are clueless

01:48:18.460 which i actually lean towards this uh not to be too disrespectful yeah exactly uh so that the fact

01:48:26.640 that they're just clueless about it extraterrestrial or not who knows chinese russian or not who knows

01:48:31.860 if they really don't know that in itself is a national security risk because all of a sudden again

01:48:38.480 you're taking that top dog on the planet and realizing okay we're being out outmaneuvered

01:48:44.120 outperformed uh this this technology whomever is wielding it is above and beyond us and that in

01:48:51.300 itself is a risk so they have to tackle this in in numerous different ways depending upon what the

01:48:57.040 phenomena truly is they have to look at it at different ways because at the end of the day all of

01:49:02.900 those all of those possibilities truly are a national security risk whichever way you slice

01:49:08.500 it or dice it so it's a very very sensitive topic with them uh and and um i mean i kind of feel it

01:49:15.880 shouldn't be uh but it is well so while we're on the subject of okay we've done the two new mexico

01:49:22.060 uh incidents but can we talk just for a minute about area 51 in nevada which is supposed to be

01:49:27.260 this is a u.s military site where supposedly you know there's a guy named bob lazar who's described

01:49:33.720 as a conspiracy theorist he says he was hired to reverse engineer a flying saucer there um some say

01:49:39.900 we buried a ufo there honestly i as somebody who comes to this totally fresh faced on it i have no

01:49:45.940 that sounds like lunacy but what the hell do i know what what do you think you know the bob lazar story

01:49:51.780 and i know i'll get hate mail for saying this i truly believe that that's more just a legend than a

01:49:56.800 myth versus versus he was actually out there working on a flying saucer i mean his backstory

01:50:02.860 says that there were nine alien saucers out there and you know his story's been around for decades

01:50:08.000 the problem with it is and i'll sum it up this way when you talk about a highly classified situation

01:50:14.360 like that or program which let's face it if they've got captured alien aircraft or spacecraft

01:50:18.500 you know darn well that that's going to be the most classified thing within our military's arsenal

01:50:24.080 at least at the very top you can't just go around talking about that and have nothing happen now

01:50:31.200 there's rumors about his you know identity being deleted and this and that but there's never been

01:50:36.260 any proof of that and he's nothing's ever happened to him you know he's out there doing lectures and

01:50:42.000 conferences and television series using his real name you know i mean it for me that doesn't make sense

01:50:48.200 you look at someone like edward snowden um support his action or not it doesn't matter when you take

01:50:54.240 classified information and you throw it out there into the cosmos so to speak and just let anybody

01:51:00.160 access it there's a problem with that there there truly is i mean there's a reason why uh leakers

01:51:05.960 like that uh largely live locked up and you know neutral zones because they want them back you know they

01:51:13.820 they want to prosecute and so when you have stories like this which are talking about an obvious

01:51:19.720 very classified situation if it were true and they're just doing it willy-nilly and getting paid for

01:51:25.620 doing lectures and stuff like that to me that's a huge problem and and and i use i very much use

01:51:33.180 history to kind of prove or disprove situations like that and history shows that if if he really was

01:51:40.160 talking about a highly classified program he likely wouldn't be around talking about it for long i

01:51:46.460 mean i truly believe that there would be you know yeah because you do have you do have nuts out there

01:51:51.500 you know you've got nuts i've seen them on youtube talking about how they got abducted by the aliens

01:51:55.300 and they lost their virginity to some alien hologram at age i was like oh my god so it's hard that those

01:52:01.460 are the kind of reports that give an attempt to honestly understand these uaps a bad name right it's like

01:52:09.920 yeah you can you can say that's crazy town and still be open-minded to our military fighter pilots

01:52:17.640 saying i'm telling you that that wasn't man-made or you know that's as far as i know humans don't have

01:52:24.560 the technology to create what i encountered out there one after the other it's not like some one

01:52:29.340 lunatic who's always had mental health problems came forward off as his f-16 and said that it's like

01:52:34.080 one after the other so as you're somebody who's sort of followed the strain over the decades with

01:52:40.360 your foyer request trying to figure out what the government actually has in its files you see the

01:52:44.640 current reporting the 2004 nimitz the 2015 incidents what do you see as the as the through strain you

01:52:51.300 know between all those reports in the last couple of of years what i see is the the the through line

01:52:58.220 with that is that it very much echoes the 40s 50s and 60s highly trained military personnel and and

01:53:06.300 and outside of military also but are experiencing a phenomena that still to this day cannot be

01:53:12.240 explained that to me is the through line the press statements that i talk about you know and you

01:53:17.700 juxtapose that with actual evidence they they want you to believe that everything is explained but the

01:53:23.580 evidence shows that through the 40s 50s and 60s it was not same to this day those videos that were

01:53:30.120 captured the video i should say in 2004 and then the videos in 2015 i i got the navy to go on the record

01:53:36.820 for the first time about those those videos saying that whatever the objects were the navy had no idea

01:53:43.460 what they were and that was a huge revelation i mean that story ended up going viral simply because

01:53:49.840 the military was never talking like that in the last quite a few decades since the close of 1969

01:53:55.700 it was pulling teeth to get that evidence pried loose from the intelligence community and you name a

01:54:03.140 federal agency i was going after information from it it was like pulling teeth now they're commenting on

01:54:09.500 it and the question mark is why like where are we going with this and and that is a real

01:54:15.100 unwritten chapter of this saga that has gone on for 70 plus years and it's all going to hinge on

01:54:21.420 this report that's coming out hopefully at the end of this month um but to go back to your question

01:54:27.240 that through line is highly trained uh highly intelligent people are seeing this still to this day

01:54:33.340 the people that we trust defending our freedoms and our country the men and women that are up there

01:54:38.480 are seeing this and no matter what alien or not you can see a i don't want to say fear because i

01:54:45.220 don't want to make it seem disrespectful that they're scared but rather there's a concern that

01:54:50.700 they're up there and so are these objects and they have no idea what they are and they're performing in

01:54:56.500 ways that they can't say oh well that's another f-18 oh hey look at that that's a that's a must be a

01:55:02.900 law enforcement drone you know that they're not able to quickly identify it so that that i believe

01:55:09.340 is reinforcing decades and decades of cases and witnesses that truly have seen a nuts and bolts

01:55:16.060 something that cannot be explained well that's exactly right because that's that lieutenant alex

01:55:21.520 dietrich who was the one who flew with a david fravor in the of the 2004 uss nimitz um she said

01:55:28.640 it concerned me that i didn't know how to defend against this thing right it's like

01:55:32.900 she was on the record this is a very serious woman saying like you know one of the thoughts i had was

01:55:38.020 i don't recognize it and how do i defend against it of course because she said she's a fighter

01:55:41.600 okay the conclusion to our episode is right after this don't go away

01:55:46.100 in your book you talk about how a lot of these sightings have been around uh nuclear plants nuclear

01:55:57.520 facilities nuclear storage facilities and you talk about how in the 60s and 70s there were many many

01:56:02.880 people would describe what they saw as um i'm just quoting from you now mostly round though reports

01:56:11.920 of oval cigar shaped and pencil shaped objects no sound reported in association with any of these

01:56:19.360 um sometimes the reports were red lights or green lights how do you see all that comparing to the

01:56:26.700 reports we've gotten more recently yeah minus the red lights and green lights i think you're leaning

01:56:31.640 towards potentially more of a conventional aircraft obviously with you know faa nav lights and stuff

01:56:36.860 like that but everything else that you mentioned are very much uh in relation to what's being talked

01:56:42.540 about today today the big buzzword is tic-tac you know the the fighter pilots uh david fravor and

01:56:49.500 and alex dietrich describe this object as a tic-tac well that obviously is new verbiage to describe a ufo but

01:56:57.000 but in the past they've used cigar shaped you know very similar shape no signs of propulsion in many

01:57:03.900 of the cases no sound like you mentioned so those are characteristics that are nothing new that those

01:57:11.100 have gone back for decades on cases that cannot be explained so when you look at at then that technology

01:57:19.960 whatever it is and the fact that we haven't after all these decades caught up in learning what the top

01:57:27.340 secret explanation for it was meaning if this was some kind of drone that was being tested or other

01:57:34.400 type of stealth aircraft or whatever it might be generally we hear about it after 30 40 or 50 years of

01:57:41.300 development i think the going formula is the general public is is roughly about 50 years behind

01:57:47.360 hearing what they're actually testing and developing and you look at the b2 stealth stealth bomber and

01:57:53.760 the f-117 that's about true you know they were they were developing that for decades and decades

01:57:58.420 flying stuff like that at area 51 and then we learn about it decades after they're they're made that's

01:58:03.920 interesting so after all these years when you talk about the cigar shaped ufos and what uh dietrich and

01:58:10.720 and fravor saw in 2004 we don't have an explanation yet and in in i think i broke the story in

01:58:17.160 2019 but uh in late 2019 and the u.s navy is going on the record saying yeah we have no idea what the

01:58:23.420 heck these things are uh that's huge because they could have said uh we can neither confirm nor deny

01:58:30.280 and that's called a glomar response essentially that's their that's their safety fallback if it is

01:58:35.780 a highly classified piece of technology and they can't talk about it a lot of times they'll give a

01:58:40.880 glomar response which means we can neither confirm nor deny but in this case in the dietrich and

01:58:46.100 fravor case in 2004 and the other videos in 2015 navy's going on the record saying yep those are

01:58:52.700 unidentified we have no idea what they are it's like wait a minute what that that to me was one of the

01:58:58.600 biggest shocks i think in the last 25 years for me personally because that that generally is not

01:59:05.620 their uh that's not their mo that that's not what they do they either neither confirm nor deny or

01:59:12.660 just outright you know classify it so what do you i mean having studied this right i mean what do you

01:59:20.220 think the science shows is the most likely scenario i mean obviously the most likely scenario would be

01:59:28.260 is it a you know piece of classified technology off the coast of california where the nimitz encounter

01:59:33.280 took place you know you have a navy installation where i know that they test uh classified technology

01:59:40.000 of of uh of quite a few different types over the years is there a connection there i don't know

01:59:46.000 uh you know that so the most likely of course occam's razor you can't just jump to alien right

01:59:53.040 off the bat i mean you need evidence to support that but the fact that the military is going on the

01:59:58.260 record saying hey we're clueless we have no idea what these things are then you couple that with the

02:00:03.420 highly trained pilot saying hey after all these years we have no idea what the heck that stuff could

02:00:08.700 have been and they're out there on the record that to me is really intriguing that to me warrants further

02:00:15.540 scientific study and investigation because we're only talking about one or two cases uh here uh well

02:00:23.860 three or four but we're only talking about a handful when the new york times wrote their story if it's

02:00:29.720 accurate there's over 120 cases that they are studying for this report and where i'm going with that is

02:00:37.180 there is so much more to this story than the general public knows yeah it's not just going to be these

02:00:44.000 couple of military pilots who happen to catch it on video that's the only reason we're paying attention

02:00:48.380 because finally thanks to the technology we they got it on video thanks to infrared technology and we

02:00:53.240 trust our pilots it's not some random truck driver in the middle of nowhere saying i swear i saw it you

02:00:59.520 know this is it's tough to dismiss all of these very credible people um who had similar experiences

02:01:06.080 in different places over you know the course of let's say 10 years but i i do think i'd love to

02:01:12.540 ask you to put it in perspective for us because in your book you talk about the human crafts that we

02:01:18.940 know are not capable of the reporting of the reported behavior that we're seeing and so this is why

02:01:25.540 people just if you're looking at the raw data you need to pay attention because so far as far as we

02:01:29.760 know not russians not chinese not americans because our our militaries who point out is not saying

02:01:34.220 that's not our tech we are not technologically capable of doing that yet we can't do it because

02:01:39.520 it's so extraordinary what they're seeing and you're talking in the book about chuck yeager

02:01:42.980 breaking the sound barrier can you can you put some meat on those bones about you know the

02:01:47.520 extraordinary speeds and so on that we're seeing yeah what i did uh in in part of the book was look

02:01:53.040 at the documented on radar with visual sightings so again that's something that that a witness saw

02:01:59.040 but also was backed up on radar they were going at speeds faster than the records that we were setting

02:02:05.020 meaning whatever this phenomena was it was being documented not only with the human eye because we

02:02:11.160 can always make mistakes but also radar confirmations going beyond what we were capable of doing so again

02:02:20.520 looking at history looking at that documentation gives even more credibility to someone like fravor and

02:02:27.740 and and ryan graves and those that have that have come forward the fighter pilots that have recently

02:02:33.240 come forward that they are seeing technology that's outpacing and maneuvering them as well

02:02:39.000 that is a phenomena that has not been solved yet is it china or russia and that's that's those are

02:02:46.780 kind of the the buzz countries that we keep going and hearing all about sure maybe but at this point

02:02:52.920 i highly doubt it because i think that after all these years uh of bantering about this in the media

02:02:59.860 somebody would say something or leak something that says all right look this is this is probably what

02:03:06.260 you guys were seeing in 2004 but nothing has really come close at all and there's been a lot of analysis

02:03:12.900 on the videos and there's you know they're often referred to as skeptics and debunkers and they go well

02:03:17.920 we think this is glare or this is this or that or a balloon and that's all fine but regardless i go back to that

02:03:25.140 120 plus case number where let's just say maybe one or two of these cases yeah they were mistaken yeah it was a

02:03:32.820 balloon that's fine there's still too much overwhelming evidence to just put this aside

02:03:38.260 and i think that that that in itself again stretching back into history and being supported

02:03:43.820 by actual evidence this is a phenomena that's been around for a long time and it's one that they

02:03:49.340 just cannot explain yeah i um i know you pointed out that it wasn't until november 2004 that nasa broke

02:03:56.320 a new record with their x-43 jet aircraft hitting speeds of uh about approximately 7 300 miles per hour

02:04:03.180 7 366 miles per hour and our last guest is saying some of these uh miles per hour of these recent jets

02:04:11.380 were estimated to be 13 000 you said some reports put it at 27 000 miles per hour i mean we're we set

02:04:18.220 a record with 7 300 and if these are going 27 000 miles an hour you can just see there's such a delta

02:04:26.100 between our very very best and we've got the best in the world versus what these things are estimated

02:04:31.900 by trained pilots to have been doing so so what that leads me to the report that we're expecting as

02:04:38.520 somebody who's been studying this and getting the foyer requested documents and so on when you found

02:04:42.520 out that you know now the senate intel committee was ordering this report a serious report though

02:04:47.620 in a very short amount of time were you like yes finally or were you like oh right they're not going

02:04:53.200 to come up with anything in six months uh both actually uh yes of course i was excited because

02:05:00.080 this mandated the intelligence community to actually say something what they're going to say is anybody's

02:05:07.140 guess i have my fear about what's going to happen but i also have my excitement i do hope that that

02:05:13.360 there will be something of note that will be revealed but but again it's it's anybody's guess

02:05:18.900 at this point though part of me being very skeptical wonders what's going to happen here as the due date

02:05:27.820 rapidly approaches and i think i said this late late last year i think it'll be late how late it will

02:05:34.640 be i don't know uh blaming covid has been pretty much a fallback for for the u.s government uh and

02:05:41.900 on everything that's right so you know will they pull that card uh maybe and and and delay it uh i've

02:05:49.340 been uh working on a couple different stories and i've been reaching out to the dni's press office trying

02:05:54.060 to see okay look are you guys scheduled this on time is there a certain day that you're planning

02:05:59.220 what's your distribution uh and essentially i i can't get answers to any of that they they respond

02:06:05.320 but but not answering any of that other than they are working on getting the report and fulfilling

02:06:12.740 the the committee's request uh that's essential i'm paraphrasing there but that's essentially what they

02:06:18.240 say no date no distribution method uh nothing one interesting thing because a lot of people are

02:06:25.100 talking about this and again it stems from that new york times article the white house was asked this

02:06:29.580 the other day in their press briefing room and um jen pisaki had responded that the report's not done yet

02:06:36.940 nor were their conclusions drawn yet so that was kind of an interesting revelation that here we are you

02:06:43.560 know approaching mid-june on the month that it's due by month's end and if the report's not done and

02:06:49.060 no conclusions are drawn does that mean it's going to be on time i'm not sure so i kind of feel the

02:06:53.820 writing is on the wall that they'll delay it but hey i i truly hope i'm wrong on that one i mean

02:06:59.380 according to the reports you know thus far because it it seems to me that the new york times

02:07:04.060 they got the leaked conclusions so they're trying to get out ahead of this they're trying to sort of

02:07:08.400 set the expectations we can report it we can expect a report that basically says

02:07:12.580 yeah not sure can't rule anything out can't rule anything in it didn't come from us that's the one

02:07:21.760 big headline it's not american military or u.s government tech but then you know the question

02:07:25.840 is do we believe that i understand they're not supposed to lie to us but like do we believe that

02:07:29.640 because they do lie to us sometimes um but they're never going to come out and say it's alien

02:07:34.860 spacecraft and and we shouldn't really be expecting that until unless and until we actually

02:07:39.500 can capture one of these things and actually you know manage to get our hands on it and we all take

02:07:44.120 a look at it as a country and say oh my god let's get let's put our best and brightest on it yeah you

02:07:49.800 know i i will say just to be a little bit of an optimist even if they said that that man we have no

02:07:54.460 idea what it is and they pull that card that to me is actually encouraging to be honest with you to

02:07:59.840 the general public it's going to be like a big letdown and a big dud uh but for me who's been

02:08:05.540 involved with it for so long they have been so adamant about saying that there's nothing to the

02:08:11.140 phenomena if they have come around to finally admit well the phenomena is real we're investigating it

02:08:17.060 or possible we don't know right and then there's a lot of possibilities here that to me is actually an

02:08:22.480 encouraging development as snoozy as that result would sound uh and again i think the public will be

02:08:28.220 generally let down if that is the case but for me that's encouraging because if they if they put it

02:08:33.860 on the record the the the snoozy conclusion like ah we have no idea that that we we've looked at that

02:08:40.420 120 cases and we don't know i don't believe there's any scenario after a conclusion like that where they

02:08:48.640 could not fund an ongoing effort to continue investigating the phenomena whatever it is because when you

02:08:57.740 end in a question mark like that and within that question mark there is an entangled national

02:09:04.160 security risk a potential national security risk that these objects are encroaching onto sensitive

02:09:10.500 installations technology and outmaneuvering our our military and there's witnesses to back all of that

02:09:16.900 up if you end it with we don't know i don't see any scenario where they go oh okay well let's not

02:09:23.640 really care about it then like i just i don't see that i think that from a national security concern

02:09:28.940 they will say we need to fund this alien or not it doesn't that's not a question anymore it doesn't

02:09:35.140 matter uh i mean it does to to us obviously but to the national security uh risk that part doesn't

02:09:42.860 matter the risk is what matters alien or not it doesn't matter and so that's why i think it's an

02:09:49.020 encouraging development because then moving forward they will say fine 120 plus cases you guys still

02:09:54.940 can't figure this out over the course of however many years those 120 cases span and you guys can't

02:10:00.820 figure it out then fine here's x amount of dollars figure it out because i do think that there will be

02:10:07.200 enough then public pressure to go to the marco rubios and and the mark warners of the uh of the senate

02:10:14.460 and say we as your constituent want answers and we demand it and i think then the popularity will

02:10:21.420 be so high and the demand will be so high they'll have to fund it i don't see a way out of it if

02:10:26.860 that's their conclusion because not knowing is not an acceptable status quo and now we have nasa saying

02:10:33.780 we want to work with you too we're we're on it too we're into it which is helpful it's you know what's

02:10:39.940 exciting about it is it's just the beginning john you know it's not the beginning for you but this

02:10:45.040 could be just the beginning of a real real concerted effort to figure this stuff out and um thank you for

02:10:51.960 all of the good work you've been doing on it over the years you're a fascinating guy i want to check

02:10:55.420 it out the black vault uh and and all of your documents are posted there we can search for

02:11:00.340 ourselves right we can like everything you've gotten is publicly available to us everything's free

02:11:06.000 publicly available there's 2.4 million pages to read on pretty much every government secret topic

02:11:11.440 you can imagine and uh all obtained from the freedom of information act do you find time for

02:11:16.480 for fiction in your life or are you like my husband doug with the ancient aliens on the history channel

02:11:21.220 in all your free time you know i i as much as i sometimes i'll i'll watch movies that's about as far

02:11:27.260 into fiction as i go when it comes to this kind of research stuff i'm hardcore non-fiction

02:11:31.560 documentation evidence driven i love it i love it thank you so much for being here you're very

02:11:37.020 welcome it was an honor thank you so much all right well don't forget to go and give us a review tell us

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02:12:00.360 topic um anyway and give me a five-star review while you're there if you feel so inclined and

02:12:05.620 don't forget our next show because we have a woman who you're going to want to meet her name is alice

02:12:11.160 marie johnson better known as the woman kim kardashian helped get out of jail under trump but it's such a

02:12:16.280 crazy story she was sentenced to life plus 25 years for basically she she describes it as acting as a

02:12:24.600 telephone drug mule like she was helping drug dealers connect with drug distributors which she

02:12:30.340 realizes was criminal she takes full responsibility for it but it's non-violent she had never had a

02:12:35.100 criminal record she lived an upstanding life and they threw her away in jail and threw away the key

02:12:40.640 locked her up and threw away the key and how she dealt with it how she got out and the lessons she

02:12:46.860 learned and the moment she walked out of federal prison and what was happening with the women are

02:12:52.240 already like in the prison cheering for her will bring a tear to your eye and a chill down your

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The Megyn Kelly Show - June 16, 2021

The Truth About UFOs and UAPs, with Lue Elizondo and John Greenewald ｜ Ep. 116

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