The Megyn Kelly Show - The Unabomber： A Megyn Kelly Show True Crime Special

00:00:00.000 When I found out my friend got a great deal

00:00:02.160 on a wool coat from Winners,

00:00:03.760 I started wondering,

00:00:05.440 is every fabulous item I see from Winners?

00:00:08.560 Like that woman over there with the designer jeans.

00:00:11.260 Are those from Winners?

00:00:12.780 Ooh, or those beautiful gold earrings.

00:00:15.260 Did she pay full price?

00:00:16.600 Or that leather tote?

00:00:17.600 Or that cashmere sweater?

00:00:18.500 Or those knee-high boots?

00:00:20.300 That dress?

00:00:21.080 That jacket?

00:00:21.740 Those shoes?

00:00:22.780 Is anyone paying full price for anything?

00:00:25.800 Stop wondering.

00:00:27.000 Start winning.

00:00:27.940 Winners.

00:00:28.520 Find fabulous for less.

00:00:30.580 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:32.520 Your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:41.680 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:43.440 Welcome to a very special Megyn Kelly Show episode.

00:00:46.520 This week we are taking a look back

00:00:48.460 at some of the most infamous true crime cases

00:00:51.360 in American history.

00:00:53.280 Today's show focuses on a twisted genius

00:00:56.060 who terrorized this country for nearly two decades.

00:00:59.420 Building and sending bombs so untraceable,

00:01:03.420 our best law enforcement agents could not figure out

00:01:06.400 who was behind the carnage.

00:01:09.200 The targets?

00:01:10.400 Universities, airlines,

00:01:12.520 and sometimes random other places

00:01:14.880 to throw off the investigators.

00:01:17.400 Three people ultimately were murdered,

00:01:20.020 nearly two dozen others injured,

00:01:22.520 in many cases severely.

00:01:23.960 That is until the feds finally got a break

00:01:26.700 in what would become known as

00:01:28.500 the Unabomber investigation.

00:01:31.000 The man behind the bombings

00:01:33.040 sent a 35,000 word manifesto

00:01:36.460 to multiple newspapers and TV stations

00:01:39.180 across the country,

00:01:41.060 claiming to explain his motives

00:01:42.580 and vowing to stop the attacks

00:01:44.720 if they would publish it.

00:01:46.860 They did.

00:01:48.660 And it caught the eye

00:01:49.880 of someone very unexpected

00:01:51.660 who ultimately flagged him

00:01:54.080 to the FBI.

00:01:55.960 On April 3rd, 1996,

00:01:58.660 Ted Kaczynski's reign of terror

00:02:00.240 came to an end.

00:02:01.960 Investigators arrested him

00:02:03.200 in Montana

00:02:04.000 at a primitive cabin

00:02:05.260 with no electricity or plumbing.

00:02:07.040 And there they found

00:02:08.660 a wealth of bomb components,

00:02:10.900 40,000 handwritten journal pages,

00:02:13.480 and one live bomb

00:02:14.900 ready to be sent.

00:02:17.140 Today, Ted Kaczynski spends his time

00:02:18.900 in a federal prison in Colorado,

00:02:20.680 put there in large part

00:02:22.280 thanks to my next guest.

00:02:24.960 Terry Turchie has been described

00:02:26.760 as the heart and spirit

00:02:28.180 of the investigation.

00:02:30.120 Between 1994 and 1998,

00:02:33.100 Terry directed the Unabomb Task Force,

00:02:35.800 as it was known,

00:02:36.760 that helped identify

00:02:37.740 and then arrest Kaczynski.

00:02:40.840 He retired from the FBI

00:02:42.180 in April 2001,

00:02:44.420 having served as the first

00:02:45.640 deputy assistant director

00:02:46.860 of the newly created

00:02:47.920 counterterrorism division.

00:02:50.360 His book is Unabomber,

00:02:53.160 how the FBI broke its own rules

00:02:55.000 to capture the terrorist

00:02:56.600 Ted Kaczynski.

00:02:58.360 Terry, thank you so much

00:02:59.320 for being here.

00:03:00.820 Megan, thank you very much

00:03:01.780 for having me.

00:03:02.800 It's a riveting story.

00:03:04.600 I've read your book

00:03:05.340 cover to cover.

00:03:06.280 I've watched a bunch of movies now

00:03:07.920 and TV series

00:03:09.340 on the Unabomber,

00:03:10.440 so I feel like I have

00:03:11.120 a decent handle

00:03:11.800 on how it all went down.

00:03:13.440 But my biggest takeaway

00:03:15.020 in reading your book

00:03:16.080 was how it was

00:03:18.560 a meticulous,

00:03:20.840 painstaking,

00:03:22.900 teaspoons-in-the-ocean effort,

00:03:25.540 bit by bit,

00:03:26.920 day by day,

00:03:27.680 week by week,

00:03:28.300 month by month,

00:03:28.840 year by year,

00:03:29.400 to put together

00:03:30.640 the evidence

00:03:31.560 that cumulatively

00:03:33.500 would ultimately

00:03:34.720 be used

00:03:35.480 to take this guy down.

00:03:37.040 Well, that's a really

00:03:37.880 good description, Megan.

00:03:39.300 And I think that description

00:03:40.860 also matches

00:03:41.760 the team

00:03:42.780 that eventually

00:03:43.400 came together

00:03:44.220 to make all of this happen.

00:03:46.320 And we often joke,

00:03:47.900 and of course,

00:03:49.020 back then,

00:03:49.440 we weren't joking too much.

00:03:50.660 We were really

00:03:51.280 serious

00:03:52.360 and usually stressed out.

00:03:54.480 But we really

00:03:56.100 look back on this

00:03:57.520 and think that

00:03:58.200 we were very fortunate

00:03:59.160 that all of the people

00:04:00.580 who were in all

00:04:01.280 of these places

00:04:01.860 at the right time

00:04:02.820 really played

00:04:04.460 an important role

00:04:05.220 in making this all happen.

00:04:06.700 And when I say that,

00:04:07.940 I'm thinking of

00:04:08.520 Jim Freeman,

00:04:09.300 the special agent

00:04:10.000 in charge of our office

00:04:11.080 in San Francisco,

00:04:12.000 who was in charge

00:04:13.120 of all the investigations

00:04:14.240 that San Francisco

00:04:15.200 did in the FBI there.

00:04:17.140 Max Knoll,

00:04:18.160 who was just

00:04:19.420 a tremendous,

00:04:20.660 awesome criminal agent

00:04:21.860 who never wanted

00:04:22.980 to be assigned

00:04:23.640 a Unabomb

00:04:24.220 and was pulled off

00:04:25.460 of his organized crime work

00:04:26.880 to go work there.

00:04:28.260 Joel Moss

00:04:29.040 and Kathy Puckett,

00:04:30.100 both of whom

00:04:30.560 worked with me

00:04:31.220 on counterintelligence

00:04:32.400 in San Francisco,

00:04:33.840 they volunteered

00:04:34.480 to come over

00:04:35.440 from counterintelligence

00:04:36.560 and work on this case.

00:04:38.200 And then, of course,

00:04:38.820 Director Free

00:04:39.560 and Janet Reno,

00:04:40.740 who was the Attorney General

00:04:41.740 at the time,

00:04:42.700 and someone named Molly Flynn,

00:04:44.240 who was an FBI agent

00:04:45.360 who played a major

00:04:46.580 and key role

00:04:47.380 in our Washington

00:04:48.120 Metropolitan Field Division.

00:04:50.280 So all of this

00:04:51.120 came together,

00:04:51.980 a number of agencies,

00:04:52.920 the Postal Inspection Service,

00:04:54.800 the FBI,

00:04:55.840 the ATF.

00:04:57.240 And I was really proud

00:04:59.780 to be able to serve

00:05:01.260 with that team

00:05:02.280 and on that team

00:05:03.200 and be a part of that.

00:05:05.020 And it's because

00:05:06.020 of so many people

00:05:06.960 and certainly those people

00:05:07.920 I mentioned

00:05:08.380 that so much of this

00:05:09.660 came together.

00:05:10.980 I love this character,

00:05:11.800 Max Knoll.

00:05:12.980 I mean,

00:05:13.200 I realize he's a real person,

00:05:14.780 but in the book,

00:05:15.640 I love him as a character

00:05:16.800 because he is

00:05:18.380 the constant naysayer.

00:05:19.700 He's the one saying,

00:05:20.600 this is BS.

00:05:21.940 You can't put together

00:05:22.700 a criminal profile

00:05:23.820 based on comparing

00:05:24.700 words of one thing

00:05:25.660 to words that sound similar

00:05:27.080 in another thing.

00:05:27.860 You need hardcore

00:05:29.020 criminal evidence.

00:05:30.540 That's how you make a case.

00:05:31.960 And almost to the end,

00:05:33.260 he had real doubts

00:05:34.180 about whether this was the guy.

00:05:36.160 But the kind of evidence

00:05:37.660 Max wanted

00:05:38.480 was it was so hard

00:05:40.940 to get

00:05:41.520 in the Unabomb investigation.

00:05:43.980 The guy,

00:05:44.760 I mean,

00:05:44.940 we now know

00:05:45.520 it's Ted Kaczynski.

00:05:46.620 He was so clever.

00:05:48.620 He was brilliant

00:05:49.800 in hiding his identity.

00:05:52.200 He was

00:05:52.520 at least a couple

00:05:53.820 of steps ahead

00:05:54.600 of you guys

00:05:55.380 on how you might

00:05:57.080 detect identity

00:05:58.000 and even actively

00:05:59.360 taking steps

00:06:00.200 to plant evidence

00:06:01.280 in his bombs

00:06:02.020 that he knew

00:06:02.960 you'd run down

00:06:03.800 to make it look like

00:06:05.180 it was accidentally

00:06:06.060 placed there,

00:06:06.840 but it was in fact

00:06:07.600 an attempt to mislead you.

00:06:09.900 He actually spent

00:06:11.160 just as much time

00:06:12.240 doing that, Megan,

00:06:13.220 just as you laid out

00:06:14.300 as he did

00:06:15.140 building the bombs.

00:06:16.580 For example,

00:06:17.360 at one point,

00:06:18.200 and of course,

00:06:18.680 we confirmed all this later.

00:06:20.380 We found this out

00:06:21.400 when we searched his cabin.

00:06:23.440 But at one point,

00:06:24.980 he was in the men's room

00:06:26.060 in the bus station

00:06:28.320 at the,

00:06:29.360 in Missoula, Montana,

00:06:30.740 and he found

00:06:32.200 a couple of hairs

00:06:33.080 on the floor.

00:06:34.160 And later,

00:06:34.680 he would put

00:06:35.340 those two human hairs

00:06:36.620 between layers

00:06:37.400 of electrical tape

00:06:38.340 in one of his bombs.

00:06:39.740 What was he thinking about?

00:06:41.240 Well, he was thinking

00:06:41.860 that when we found

00:06:42.860 the debris

00:06:43.520 in this terrible crime scene,

00:06:45.060 he would actually,

00:06:47.040 we would actually think

00:06:48.100 that it was someone's DNA,

00:06:49.540 probably the bomber,

00:06:50.680 when in fact,

00:06:51.260 it would have nothing

00:06:51.840 to do with this case.

00:06:53.560 He would use wood

00:06:55.260 and metals

00:06:55.980 in putting these bombs

00:06:56.940 together.

00:06:57.320 At one point,

00:06:58.100 the FBI lab referred to him

00:06:59.660 as the junkyard bomber.

00:07:00.940 And so he would file

00:07:02.900 down the metal

00:07:03.700 so he could eliminate

00:07:04.620 fingerprints

00:07:05.140 if he thought

00:07:05.700 there were any there.

00:07:06.620 He would sand the wood.

00:07:09.140 I mean,

00:07:09.420 he thought of everything.

00:07:10.880 He thought of disguises

00:07:12.040 when he would go purchase

00:07:13.220 and acquire

00:07:13.940 everything from junk

00:07:15.540 at a junkyard

00:07:16.240 to something he might buy

00:07:17.260 at a hardware store.

00:07:18.420 He would take the jackets

00:07:20.000 off of batteries

00:07:21.140 so that we couldn't trace

00:07:22.860 the batch of batteries.

00:07:24.280 So he was doing

00:07:25.380 everything he could think of

00:07:27.100 to try and deceive

00:07:28.540 and lead us

00:07:29.780 in another direction

00:07:30.760 and confuse.

00:07:32.460 And I think that

00:07:33.680 certainly worked

00:07:34.660 to his advantage

00:07:35.660 for those years.

00:07:37.040 Right, because it's not

00:07:38.180 in reading your book

00:07:39.100 and so on,

00:07:39.480 it's not like the FBI

00:07:40.280 was full of a bunch of fools

00:07:41.760 who just didn't know

00:07:42.360 what they were doing,

00:07:43.180 though there was

00:07:44.160 a lack of appetite

00:07:45.180 for a period of years

00:07:46.460 to really devote

00:07:47.240 all the resources

00:07:48.140 necessary toward this case

00:07:49.940 because he went quiet

00:07:51.280 for about six years

00:07:52.320 and so the FBI

00:07:53.000 kind of, you know,

00:07:54.160 maybe died, whatever.

00:07:55.840 It wasn't that the FBI

00:07:57.220 was a bunch of

00:07:58.220 Dunderheads.

00:07:58.740 It was that this guy

00:08:00.220 was clever

00:08:01.820 in a really disturbing

00:08:04.440 criminal way.

00:08:06.060 When I heard

00:08:06.660 your description

00:08:07.160 of the bombs,

00:08:08.340 the one just now

00:08:09.420 and the ones

00:08:10.020 you give in your book,

00:08:11.240 it occurred to me,

00:08:12.860 weirdly,

00:08:14.280 there was love

00:08:14.960 put into them.

00:08:15.840 Like, the guy loved

00:08:17.100 the bomb itself,

00:08:18.420 though he hated

00:08:19.140 anybody involved

00:08:20.900 in sort of the university

00:08:21.820 or industrial complex

00:08:23.100 and so on.

00:08:23.540 Like, we'll get into

00:08:24.300 the reasons he was doing it.

00:08:25.460 But he loved his bombs.

00:08:26.540 He was very, very careful,

00:08:29.560 very meticulous

00:08:30.440 in putting those bombs together

00:08:31.840 and would really take it hard

00:08:34.120 when he would later read

00:08:35.620 as he was doing his research

00:08:37.020 that the bomb

00:08:37.940 didn't function properly.

00:08:39.460 And you see that

00:08:40.240 in a number of these bombings.

00:08:41.600 He would later write something

00:08:42.980 to the effect that,

00:08:44.300 damn,

00:08:44.780 I messed this up

00:08:46.240 or I didn't do this right.

00:08:48.200 Really bothering me.

00:08:49.880 Really making me angry.

00:08:51.140 I've got to build

00:08:52.400 a lethal bomb.

00:08:53.780 And that's the way

00:08:54.380 he was thinking.

00:08:55.560 And to kind of add

00:08:56.620 to one of the points

00:08:57.880 you made,

00:08:58.860 we also didn't understand

00:09:00.320 at that period of time

00:09:01.620 as much as we thought

00:09:02.860 we did

00:09:03.400 about the lone wolf

00:09:05.020 serial bomber.

00:09:06.200 We simply hadn't

00:09:07.080 had many cases like that

00:09:08.660 and we hadn't really

00:09:10.440 shared information

00:09:11.300 or been trained

00:09:12.120 in that kind of thing.

00:09:13.220 So we had to

00:09:14.160 almost put together

00:09:15.080 our own training,

00:09:16.100 our own educational process,

00:09:17.760 not only for us

00:09:18.800 who were responsible

00:09:19.640 for the case,

00:09:20.720 but for everyone

00:09:21.600 who was touching it.

00:09:22.820 And so we actually

00:09:23.700 built that into this case

00:09:25.160 so that we could

00:09:25.760 all be thinking of

00:09:26.960 and learning

00:09:27.760 as we went along.

00:09:29.160 And also we wanted

00:09:30.080 to make sure

00:09:30.560 we could pass

00:09:31.260 all of this along

00:09:32.180 if in fact

00:09:33.320 it all came out

00:09:34.980 as it ended up

00:09:36.100 so that other people

00:09:37.320 would be able

00:09:38.240 to use some of this

00:09:39.300 and some of the things

00:09:40.040 we did later on.

00:09:41.400 Yes, I definitely

00:09:42.360 want to get into that,

00:09:43.160 like what was learned

00:09:44.040 because what's fascinating

00:09:45.740 about the story is

00:09:46.780 you spent all this time

00:09:48.400 trying to figure out

00:09:49.900 who this was.

00:09:50.620 What is the profile

00:09:51.440 of this person?

00:09:52.180 Kathy Puckett,

00:09:52.860 you mentioned,

00:09:53.840 who, you know,

00:09:54.360 tried to come up

00:09:54.900 with a psychological profile

00:09:56.000 of what he was

00:09:57.000 and what you could expect

00:09:58.300 and then, you know,

00:09:59.740 nuggets of information

00:10:00.540 and I wonder

00:10:01.160 because one thing

00:10:02.240 you don't get to

00:10:02.720 in the book

00:10:03.100 is once you find him,

00:10:05.580 how did it match up?

00:10:06.960 You know, like,

00:10:07.540 how'd you do?

00:10:08.720 I want,

00:10:09.020 that needs to be part two

00:10:10.060 but we can just

00:10:11.500 try to handle it live.

00:10:12.920 Okay, so let's just start

00:10:13.940 before we get to all that.

00:10:14.760 Let's go through

00:10:15.340 a little bit chronologically

00:10:16.580 because I think

00:10:16.980 that's probably the easiest way

00:10:17.980 of understanding

00:10:18.600 his crimes.

00:10:21.680 Start with this.

00:10:22.560 Why was it called

00:10:23.660 the Unabomb investigation

00:10:26.660 and why was he dubbed

00:10:27.780 the Unabomber?

00:10:29.640 Certainly.

00:10:30.260 Well, in the first few years,

00:10:31.920 the targets of his bombs

00:10:33.340 seemed to be

00:10:34.380 university campuses,

00:10:36.180 university professors

00:10:37.340 and airlines

00:10:38.940 and especially

00:10:40.120 the first four bombs.

00:10:42.060 So the FBI,

00:10:43.680 particularly on major cases

00:10:45.340 like this,

00:10:46.260 finds that it's helpful

00:10:47.300 to add some sort of title

00:10:49.660 such as we added to this

00:10:51.520 and they call this case

00:10:52.840 Unabomb

00:10:53.600 for UNA universities

00:10:55.860 and airlines

00:10:58.560 bombings.

00:10:59.680 So Unabomb

00:11:00.560 became the name

00:11:02.000 of this investigation,

00:11:03.080 major case

00:11:03.600 that it was.

00:11:05.420 And then

00:11:05.840 at some point,

00:11:07.320 someone,

00:11:07.800 I think back east,

00:11:08.680 started referring to him

00:11:09.920 as the Unabomber.

00:11:11.560 So Unabomb

00:11:12.420 and Unabomber

00:11:13.000 not only became

00:11:14.320 how we identified

00:11:15.340 with the case,

00:11:16.260 but it also really

00:11:17.880 stuck with the public

00:11:18.960 when they finally

00:11:19.860 started learning

00:11:20.580 about the Unabomber

00:11:21.720 and what was going on.

00:11:22.840 So that's how Unabom

00:11:24.560 came into existence.

00:11:26.320 I never knew that

00:11:27.140 until I started studying

00:11:28.040 for this interview.

00:11:28.740 I always thought it was

00:11:29.560 like uni

00:11:31.160 as in one guy,

00:11:32.820 uni bomber,

00:11:33.720 you know,

00:11:34.020 and I guess I just

00:11:35.080 never paid attention

00:11:35.720 to the spelling

00:11:36.260 or thought much about it.

00:11:37.160 It's universities

00:11:38.000 and airlines.

00:11:39.060 That's how it started.

00:11:40.720 Exactly.

00:11:41.320 Yes.

00:11:41.820 Fascinating.

00:11:42.380 Okay.

00:11:42.620 So first he starts off,

00:11:44.440 the first couple of bombs

00:11:45.760 were at universities

00:11:47.100 in Chicago?

00:11:49.420 Yes.

00:11:50.020 In fact,

00:11:50.480 the first bomb,

00:11:51.380 and we'll go back

00:11:52.360 and do this

00:11:52.820 however you would like,

00:11:53.720 but later on

00:11:55.080 when we assembled

00:11:56.480 as the ultimate team

00:11:57.620 that took this

00:11:58.800 to the finish line,

00:11:59.780 we went back

00:12:00.680 and reinvestigated

00:12:01.740 all of these crimes.

00:12:02.680 So we learned so much.

00:12:03.820 But the first bombing

00:12:05.220 was at the University

00:12:07.220 of Illinois

00:12:07.840 Chicago Circle Campus.

00:12:09.840 And essentially

00:12:11.120 a passerby,

00:12:12.520 a lady named

00:12:13.100 Mary Gutierrez

00:12:13.920 was walking

00:12:15.300 by there one day.

00:12:16.400 It's the science

00:12:17.240 and technology

00:12:17.960 parking lot

00:12:18.840 of the campus.

00:12:20.220 And she saw

00:12:21.100 a package

00:12:21.720 between two cars,

00:12:22.920 two parked cars.

00:12:24.080 She picked it up,

00:12:25.120 she looked at it,

00:12:26.040 and she took it home.

00:12:27.580 And it sat there,

00:12:28.800 you know,

00:12:29.040 with her children

00:12:29.660 on the floor

00:12:30.200 for a day or two.

00:12:31.220 She saw that there

00:12:32.120 was a return address

00:12:33.080 and there was also

00:12:33.960 a recipient.

00:12:35.320 The return address

00:12:36.300 was a professor

00:12:37.160 named Buckley Christ

00:12:38.460 at Northwestern University.

00:12:41.440 And the intended recipient

00:12:44.480 was a professor

00:12:46.500 at RPI

00:12:47.500 in Troy, New York.

00:12:50.020 So she eventually

00:12:51.560 called the police.

00:12:52.520 The police come

00:12:53.080 and get the package.

00:12:54.160 They took it

00:12:54.860 to Buckley Christ

00:12:55.660 because his address

00:12:56.640 was on there

00:12:57.200 as the return address.

00:12:58.500 He said,

00:12:58.880 I don't know anything

00:12:59.260 about that.

00:12:59.960 So it was opened

00:13:00.880 at school

00:13:01.880 by a police officer

00:13:03.080 named Terry Marker.

00:13:04.620 And he suffered

00:13:05.760 some injuries

00:13:06.260 because it turned out

00:13:07.080 to be a bomb.

00:13:08.180 So that was

00:13:08.920 the first device

00:13:09.940 the Unabomber

00:13:10.560 actually sent.

00:13:11.740 But at that point

00:13:12.680 in time,

00:13:13.300 it was not looked upon

00:13:14.800 as anything

00:13:15.400 other than another bomb.

00:13:16.780 Back in those days,

00:13:18.100 as you well know,

00:13:19.100 the Weather Underground

00:13:19.980 and all kinds

00:13:20.940 of other organizations

00:13:21.820 were committing bombings.

00:13:23.140 They were attacking police.

00:13:24.760 They were active

00:13:25.400 on universities.

00:13:26.720 So there was

00:13:27.280 a lot of activity.

00:13:28.460 So since this

00:13:29.840 didn't hurt anyone

00:13:30.840 and there wasn't

00:13:32.880 much to go on,

00:13:33.760 it just kind of

00:13:34.320 got lost in the shuffle

00:13:35.360 other than recorded

00:13:36.440 at the ATF lab

00:13:37.560 and the evidence

00:13:38.980 tucked away.

00:13:40.960 And, you know,

00:13:41.640 there are quotes

00:13:42.480 from the Unabomber

00:13:43.520 throughout the book

00:13:44.660 and I know a lot

00:13:45.980 comes from that

00:13:46.520 35,000 word manifesto,

00:13:49.100 but he was writing

00:13:50.340 letters from time to time.

00:13:51.960 Was he not

00:13:52.580 during the course

00:13:53.400 of the bombings?

00:13:55.180 Actually,

00:13:55.800 he only wrote

00:13:56.540 two letters.

00:13:57.320 The first letter

00:13:58.420 during the course

00:13:59.060 of the first 14 bombings.

00:14:00.780 The first letter

00:14:02.080 was actually

00:14:03.060 to Percy Wood,

00:14:05.340 who was the president

00:14:06.540 at the time

00:14:07.300 of United Airlines.

00:14:09.060 And in June of 1980,

00:14:10.500 he received a letter

00:14:11.720 from an individual

00:14:13.160 who identified himself

00:14:14.440 as Enoch Fisher.

00:14:16.300 And Enoch Fisher said,

00:14:18.060 look,

00:14:18.260 I'm going to be

00:14:18.800 sending you a book.

00:14:20.060 And the book

00:14:20.760 is called

00:14:21.300 Ice Brothers

00:14:22.000 by Sloan Wilson.

00:14:23.280 And this is a book

00:14:25.240 that you should

00:14:25.720 pay great attention to

00:14:26.720 because you make decisions

00:14:28.120 regarding the social

00:14:29.120 welfare of people.

00:14:30.640 And so when you get

00:14:31.600 the book,

00:14:32.220 think about that.

00:14:33.680 So Percy Wood

00:14:34.460 subsequently got the book.

00:14:36.020 He went to open

00:14:36.960 the package

00:14:37.600 and then open

00:14:38.540 the wrapping.

00:14:39.800 But essentially,

00:14:40.460 the book was hollowed out

00:14:41.680 and it was a bomb.

00:14:42.500 It was an explosive device.

00:14:44.320 And so this was

00:14:45.500 the fourth Unabomber

00:14:46.460 device,

00:14:47.000 by the way.

00:14:48.000 And that letter

00:14:49.780 was interesting,

00:14:51.920 but there wasn't much

00:14:52.860 they could do

00:14:53.340 with that either.

00:14:54.340 So that became

00:14:55.400 later on something

00:14:56.860 that actually

00:14:58.120 first got us

00:14:58.880 into the words

00:14:59.640 of the Unabomber.

00:15:00.440 And we'll talk about

00:15:01.120 that probably later.

00:15:02.320 But so that was

00:15:03.740 the first letter.

00:15:05.360 During one of the

00:15:06.460 Unabomber events,

00:15:08.000 as we started calling them,

00:15:09.380 of 1985,

00:15:11.100 he sent his second letter.

00:15:13.040 And that letter

00:15:13.760 was to an individual

00:15:15.420 named James McConnell.

00:15:17.420 James McConnell

00:15:18.300 was a professor

00:15:19.260 at the University

00:15:20.220 of Michigan.

00:15:21.560 And what the Unabomber

00:15:23.080 sent him

00:15:23.840 was a letter saying,

00:15:25.780 I'm a student.

00:15:26.980 I'm doing a thesis

00:15:28.160 on something called

00:15:29.360 the history of science.

00:15:31.000 And I'd like you

00:15:31.780 to consider being

00:15:32.580 my thesis advisor.

00:15:34.420 And that letter

00:15:35.600 was signed

00:15:36.200 Ralph C. Kloppenberg.

00:15:38.780 And of course,

00:15:39.640 this was in a

00:15:40.340 three-wing binder,

00:15:41.200 like it would be

00:15:41.960 some sort of

00:15:42.760 student's essay, maybe.

00:15:44.740 And when Professor

00:15:46.300 McConnell's assistant

00:15:47.400 went to open

00:15:48.740 that package,

00:15:50.100 it exploded,

00:15:51.120 just very similar

00:15:51.960 to the book

00:15:52.500 that Percy Wood received.

00:15:54.000 Again, we were fortunate

00:15:55.180 that they suffered injuries,

00:15:57.380 but certainly

00:15:58.080 they did not

00:15:59.160 suffer something critical

00:16:00.660 or die from

00:16:01.280 those explosions.

00:16:02.700 Those were the two letters

00:16:03.800 that the Unabomber

00:16:04.700 wrote between

00:16:05.840 1978

00:16:06.840 and around

00:16:08.340 1993.

00:16:10.600 In 1993,

00:16:11.880 all that changed.

00:16:12.920 when the Unabomber

00:16:15.020 started corresponding

00:16:16.120 with the New York Times

00:16:17.440 and eventually

00:16:18.320 with the New York Times

00:16:20.000 and several other

00:16:20.760 entities and people.

00:16:22.540 So,

00:16:22.880 that is kind of

00:16:25.020 how his letters

00:16:25.820 would evolve

00:16:27.500 over the years

00:16:28.520 between 78

00:16:29.780 and 93

00:16:30.620 and then subsequently

00:16:32.060 through 96.

00:16:33.620 And then later,

00:16:34.440 when you finally

00:16:34.980 started to figure out

00:16:35.880 who it was,

00:16:36.660 you managed to get

00:16:37.340 a treasure trove

00:16:38.240 of letters

00:16:38.740 between the Unabomber

00:16:40.760 and his family members,

00:16:41.840 which would prove

00:16:42.620 really helpful

00:16:43.400 and useful

00:16:44.060 eventually.

00:16:45.380 But,

00:16:45.740 so,

00:16:46.200 he's bombing universities,

00:16:49.000 he attempts

00:16:49.520 to bomb an airplane,

00:16:51.120 and this is still

00:16:51.940 back in the late 70s,

00:16:53.380 I gather,

00:16:54.080 but it didn't work.

00:16:56.100 Thank God.

00:16:56.700 Well,

00:16:56.900 it went off,

00:16:57.620 but it kind of fizzled,

00:16:58.940 and it didn't bring down

00:16:59.880 the airplane,

00:17:00.400 although it did cause

00:17:01.180 a lot of injuries

00:17:01.920 to the people

00:17:02.400 on board the plane.

00:17:04.380 You were,

00:17:04.720 you were so right,

00:17:05.720 Megan.

00:17:06.080 In 1979,

00:17:08.240 an American Airlines

00:17:09.240 flight,

00:17:09.660 444,

00:17:10.340 was leaving from Chicago,

00:17:12.140 headed for National Airport.

00:17:13.900 And,

00:17:14.400 the plane got up

00:17:15.300 in the air,

00:17:16.040 suddenly the pilot

00:17:17.120 and the passengers

00:17:18.640 felt this jolt.

00:17:20.520 The plane started

00:17:21.600 having some problems,

00:17:23.300 and it turns out

00:17:25.080 that there was a package

00:17:26.100 on board that plane

00:17:27.260 put in the mail stream.

00:17:28.800 The U.S. Postal Service

00:17:31.440 was actually able

00:17:32.920 subsequently to determine

00:17:34.880 the path

00:17:35.980 that mail package

00:17:37.660 had taken

00:17:38.340 when the bomber

00:17:40.060 put it in the mail

00:17:40.860 in Chicago.

00:17:41.760 So they were able

00:17:42.420 to trace a package

00:17:43.620 that a witness

00:17:44.340 had touched

00:17:45.000 and eventually

00:17:46.440 got on board

00:17:47.720 this flight 444,

00:17:49.820 and it turns out

00:17:51.460 the bomb

00:17:52.160 that he designed

00:17:53.020 had some deficiencies

00:17:54.420 with respect

00:17:55.160 to the explosives.

00:17:56.780 So when it detonated,

00:17:58.800 instead of blowing up,

00:18:00.620 it started smoldering,

00:18:02.080 and it started burning

00:18:03.120 in the cargo hold.

00:18:05.160 So as the plane

00:18:06.200 was getting closer

00:18:07.040 and, of course,

00:18:07.540 declaring May Day

00:18:08.380 and wanting an emergency landing,

00:18:10.000 it was diverted

00:18:10.840 to Dulles Airport

00:18:11.900 where they had the equipment

00:18:12.940 to deal with this.

00:18:14.080 When the plane landed,

00:18:15.680 the pilots were actually

00:18:17.040 prepared to testify

00:18:18.200 many years later

00:18:19.260 when we were ready

00:18:20.340 to start the Unabombers trial

00:18:21.860 that had they not

00:18:23.300 landed the plane

00:18:24.320 on the tarmac

00:18:25.120 when they did,

00:18:26.400 they were literally

00:18:27.260 minutes or seconds

00:18:28.700 maybe away

00:18:29.560 of the fire

00:18:30.820 in the cargo hold

00:18:31.900 burning through

00:18:32.820 the main hydraulic system.

00:18:35.260 They said

00:18:35.620 if that had happened,

00:18:36.360 the plane would have

00:18:36.940 fallen out of the sky

00:18:37.940 and everybody

00:18:38.400 would have been killed.

00:18:39.800 So this is one

00:18:40.920 of the reasons,

00:18:41.740 certainly,

00:18:42.140 that in 1979,

00:18:43.680 this became

00:18:44.400 a significant

00:18:45.160 major case.

00:18:46.660 It was a crime

00:18:47.180 aboard aircraft.

00:18:48.040 It was an explosive device.

00:18:49.380 And so we knew

00:18:51.200 from that point on

00:18:52.320 we had a real problem,

00:18:53.540 but it wasn't until

00:18:55.000 Chris Rone,

00:18:56.280 who was a laboratory

00:18:57.360 supervisor

00:18:58.680 and explosives examiner,

00:19:00.520 started looking at this

00:19:01.840 and he felt that

00:19:02.740 this is the first time

00:19:04.260 I've seen

00:19:04.720 this kind of

00:19:05.660 craftsmanship

00:19:08.600 in putting together

00:19:09.440 a bomb

00:19:09.860 because all bombers

00:19:11.620 do their bombs differently.

00:19:13.240 No two bombers

00:19:14.000 build their bombs

00:19:15.240 the same

00:19:15.760 and that goes

00:19:16.240 whether it's

00:19:16.720 an international terrorist

00:19:17.800 or a domestic terrorist.

00:19:19.380 They all do something

00:19:20.360 a little differently.

00:19:21.320 He had not noticed

00:19:22.300 this before,

00:19:22.900 but he thought

00:19:23.540 that the bomber

00:19:24.200 had to have

00:19:25.180 put together

00:19:26.040 other bombs

00:19:26.700 because it was

00:19:27.460 done so well.

00:19:28.520 So he sent out

00:19:29.680 a bulletin

00:19:30.340 to other law

00:19:31.120 enforcement agencies.

00:19:32.460 This is all

00:19:33.000 back in 1979.

00:19:35.560 And the ATF,

00:19:36.880 which had handled

00:19:37.680 the first two

00:19:38.400 unibomb devices,

00:19:39.820 again,

00:19:40.240 in that era

00:19:40.920 that we talked about,

00:19:42.480 actually responded

00:19:44.460 and said,

00:19:45.260 you need to see

00:19:45.900 these other two devices

00:19:47.200 because they kind of

00:19:48.120 sound like

00:19:48.580 what you're describing.

00:19:50.180 And Chris Rone

00:19:50.900 was then able

00:19:51.820 to say,

00:19:52.480 we have a serial

00:19:53.520 bomber at large.

00:19:54.980 So it was on

00:19:55.720 the third bombing,

00:19:56.780 the attack on the airplane,

00:19:58.480 that we knew

00:19:59.400 we now have

00:20:00.060 a serial bomber.

00:20:01.400 And shortly after that

00:20:02.440 in 1980,

00:20:03.060 we would have

00:20:03.580 the fourth device,

00:20:04.900 the attack on Percy Wood,

00:20:06.440 the president

00:20:06.900 of United Airlines.

00:20:08.940 Later in the investigation,

00:20:11.220 as the Unabomber

00:20:12.200 gets better

00:20:12.880 and more efficient

00:20:14.080 at making deadly bombs,

00:20:16.320 he will threaten

00:20:17.120 to take down

00:20:17.940 another aircraft.

00:20:19.960 And you can see

00:20:20.520 from Terry's description

00:20:22.060 why they took that

00:20:23.780 so seriously

00:20:24.680 and were so concerned

00:20:25.920 he could do it

00:20:27.600 and had the will

00:20:28.580 to do it as well.

00:20:30.080 There's so much more

00:20:30.800 to go over.

00:20:31.920 The profile

00:20:32.680 of the Unabomber,

00:20:33.760 what drove Ted Kaczynski

00:20:35.300 to do this?

00:20:36.200 How?

00:20:36.940 And how did the FBI

00:20:38.820 ultimately nab him?

00:20:40.820 Don't go away.

00:20:41.400 More with former

00:20:42.400 FBI agent Terry Turchie

00:20:43.760 on the Unabomber

00:20:44.820 investigation.

00:20:46.320 Terry,

00:20:53.000 let's fast forward.

00:20:54.060 So he tried

00:20:54.600 with the airplane,

00:20:55.300 he failed.

00:20:55.780 He continued bombing.

00:20:57.620 But it wasn't until 1985

00:20:59.740 that he had

00:21:01.540 his first kill.

00:21:03.160 He managed to kill

00:21:03.920 the first person

00:21:04.840 out of all those

00:21:05.680 he attempted to kill,

00:21:07.440 though he had wounded many.

00:21:09.000 So who was that

00:21:09.900 and what happened

00:21:10.520 with Hugh Scruton?

00:21:12.280 Yes.

00:21:12.600 In December of 1985,

00:21:14.440 the Unabomber

00:21:15.080 finally got what he wanted.

00:21:16.620 He wanted to kill someone.

00:21:18.500 And Hugh Scruton

00:21:19.300 was a businessman.

00:21:21.400 He ran a very successful

00:21:23.160 computer store

00:21:24.120 in an outside-type mall,

00:21:25.860 outdoor mall,

00:21:26.780 in Sacramento, California.

00:21:28.680 And he walked out

00:21:30.360 into the back

00:21:31.260 of the store one day

00:21:32.320 and saw what looked to him

00:21:34.200 like a road hazard, Megan.

00:21:35.640 And it was essentially

00:21:37.080 two-by-fours nailed together

00:21:38.720 with nails protruding

00:21:40.420 out of the wood.

00:21:42.720 And so his thought process

00:21:44.360 was this could hurt somebody.

00:21:46.180 Somebody could pull up here

00:21:47.200 with a car

00:21:47.760 and have some problems.

00:21:49.120 So he leaned over

00:21:50.740 to remove the road hazard

00:21:53.340 and to put it

00:21:54.020 in a nearby dumpster.

00:21:55.160 And at that point,

00:21:57.360 this was what we call

00:21:58.120 the passive device

00:21:59.080 as he broke the connection

00:22:00.820 between the ground

00:22:01.720 and that device,

00:22:02.980 the two-by-fours

00:22:04.000 were actually hollowed out

00:22:05.240 and the Unabomber

00:22:06.000 had built a lethal bomb

00:22:07.500 inside the wood.

00:22:09.500 And Mr. Scruton

00:22:11.300 just simply

00:22:12.660 took the full impact

00:22:15.060 of that explosion

00:22:15.940 and died outside

00:22:18.400 in the back of his store

00:22:20.680 from that device.

00:22:22.120 And it would be two years

00:22:24.560 before we would hear

00:22:25.520 from the Unabomber again.

00:22:27.120 But in 1987,

00:22:28.900 using the same model,

00:22:30.620 the same kind of plan

00:22:32.760 with the two-by-fours

00:22:33.920 even cut from the same

00:22:35.700 pieces of wood,

00:22:36.840 he made another similar bomb

00:22:38.720 and was involved

00:22:40.220 in placing it outside

00:22:41.420 of a computer store

00:22:42.540 called CAMS

00:22:43.680 on February 20, 1987

00:22:45.840 in Salt Lake City.

00:22:47.800 And this time,

00:22:49.360 as he kind of knelt down

00:22:51.120 to finish up

00:22:53.220 preparing the bomb

00:22:54.400 so that it would detonate,

00:22:56.200 one of the employees

00:22:57.660 of CAMS

00:22:58.560 named Tammy Floyd

00:22:59.720 was looking out

00:23:01.000 a back window

00:23:01.720 and she started yelling

00:23:03.200 that someone is out here

00:23:04.200 doing something

00:23:04.820 in the parking lot.

00:23:06.480 What happened

00:23:07.240 within minutes

00:23:09.260 is the son

00:23:10.240 of the owner of CAMS,

00:23:11.440 Gary Wright,

00:23:12.200 pulled up.

00:23:13.240 He saw this

00:23:14.220 and he thought

00:23:15.140 the same thing

00:23:16.080 because he would tell us later,

00:23:17.720 I thought it was

00:23:18.380 a road hazard.

00:23:19.040 I thought it was something

00:23:19.840 that would hurt someone.

00:23:21.180 So I went to move it.

00:23:23.000 But instead of kind of

00:23:24.400 leaning over the two-by-fours

00:23:26.800 when he went to pick them up,

00:23:28.380 he kind of knelt

00:23:29.600 and then kind of brushed

00:23:32.120 against it

00:23:32.900 before he actually

00:23:34.000 picked it up

00:23:34.640 or moved it.

00:23:35.620 And the bomb exploded,

00:23:37.120 but he was spared

00:23:38.280 the full blunt

00:23:39.240 of that explosion.

00:23:40.760 And so this is

00:23:42.460 when the Unabomber

00:23:43.380 was seen

00:23:43.960 with the gray hooded sweatshirt

00:23:45.580 and the aviator sunglasses.

00:23:47.020 So after all of these years

00:23:49.060 between 1978,

00:23:51.240 1987

00:23:52.120 and all these

00:23:53.340 starts and starts

00:23:54.260 on this investigation,

00:23:55.860 someone had finally

00:23:57.240 witnessed

00:23:57.880 this individual

00:23:59.020 who up until then

00:24:00.060 was a major mystery.

00:24:01.720 And this is when

00:24:02.400 everyone kind of

00:24:03.340 got involved.

00:24:04.060 I mean,

00:24:04.260 Reader's Digest

00:24:05.080 did a big story

00:24:05.960 on the composite.

00:24:08.360 They did a big story

00:24:09.720 on what he looked like

00:24:11.160 with the hooded sweatshirt

00:24:12.980 and the aviator sunglasses

00:24:14.200 that you're showing there.

00:24:15.040 And so they also

00:24:17.440 became very familiar

00:24:18.320 with that word Unabomber.

00:24:20.300 Later,

00:24:21.160 as we reinvestigated

00:24:22.860 all of this,

00:24:24.140 something else

00:24:24.840 significant happened.

00:24:26.180 And so I think

00:24:26.740 this is a good time

00:24:27.600 to tell you the story.

00:24:29.300 During the investigation

00:24:30.700 in 1987,

00:24:32.320 that witness

00:24:33.140 was interviewed

00:24:33.720 by the police,

00:24:34.680 by the FBI.

00:24:36.260 She had a really

00:24:37.220 good recollection

00:24:38.240 of what she saw

00:24:40.640 and what she was hearing.

00:24:43.420 So someone told her

00:24:45.620 along the way,

00:24:46.460 we thank the police officer,

00:24:47.620 to take notes

00:24:48.560 and make sure

00:24:49.700 those notes

00:24:50.340 were with her

00:24:51.000 and kept fresh

00:24:51.940 in her mind.

00:24:52.940 And somebody would

00:24:54.200 stop by later

00:24:54.940 and pick them up.

00:24:56.460 Well,

00:24:56.960 no one ever stopped by

00:24:58.080 to pick up those notes.

00:24:59.300 And even in

00:25:00.000 subsequent interviews,

00:25:00.900 no one asked

00:25:01.660 about those notes.

00:25:03.400 And so in

00:25:04.580 fast forward

00:25:05.960 to 1994,

00:25:07.880 Max Knoll

00:25:08.540 had reinvestigated

00:25:09.940 those two,

00:25:10.660 a couple of those events

00:25:11.900 that were related,

00:25:13.540 the CAMS bombing

00:25:14.960 and the Rentech bombing.

00:25:16.700 And so Max

00:25:18.480 was interviewing Tammy

00:25:19.640 and she mentioned

00:25:20.480 the notes

00:25:21.120 and he said,

00:25:22.080 wait a minute,

00:25:22.560 what notes?

00:25:23.900 And she went

00:25:25.600 and retrieved them.

00:25:26.440 She said,

00:25:26.800 these notes.

00:25:28.280 And so what appeared

00:25:30.280 to us

00:25:31.040 is that she was

00:25:32.320 never comfortable

00:25:33.140 with the initial composite.

00:25:35.400 So about that time

00:25:36.880 in San Francisco

00:25:37.820 in the Bay Area,

00:25:38.780 there was another

00:25:39.800 very, very significant

00:25:41.040 investigation

00:25:41.820 and that was

00:25:43.220 the disappearance

00:25:43.900 and subsequent murder

00:25:45.060 of Polly Klass.

00:25:46.920 And we ended up

00:25:48.880 having a major break

00:25:49.900 in that case

00:25:50.580 because, again,

00:25:51.440 Jim Freeman,

00:25:52.160 who was a special agent

00:25:53.100 in charge of the FBI

00:25:54.100 in San Francisco,

00:25:55.200 ran that as well.

00:25:56.900 And Jim ended up

00:25:58.580 bringing in

00:25:59.320 a artist

00:26:00.160 named Jeannie Boylan

00:26:01.400 to do a composite

00:26:03.000 of who somebody

00:26:04.220 had seen

00:26:04.900 in the vicinity

00:26:06.540 when Polly Klass

00:26:07.380 was,

00:26:08.900 when Polly Klass

00:26:10.060 disappeared.

00:26:11.280 And so it turned out

00:26:12.460 that that composite

00:26:13.460 was almost

00:26:14.080 a spitting image

00:26:14.900 of Richard Allen Davis

00:26:16.040 who was eventually

00:26:17.660 convicted

00:26:18.180 of murdering,

00:26:19.340 kidnapping

00:26:19.660 and murdering

00:26:20.320 Polly Klass.

00:26:21.560 So Jeannie Boylan

00:26:22.660 was contacted

00:26:24.400 by Max.

00:26:25.100 We said,

00:26:25.440 Max,

00:26:25.720 go find Jeannie.

00:26:26.860 See if she can do

00:26:27.860 a composite

00:26:28.520 this many years later

00:26:30.140 and sit down

00:26:30.820 with Tammy

00:26:31.340 and see if Tammy

00:26:32.740 would be more happy

00:26:33.720 and more satisfied

00:26:34.780 with whatever

00:26:35.520 Jeannie Boylan

00:26:36.160 comes up with

00:26:36.960 based on Tammy

00:26:37.940 Floyd's description.

00:26:38.720 So lo and behold,

00:26:40.740 she came up

00:26:41.880 with a composite.

00:26:43.380 You just showed it

00:26:44.560 and it was a composite

00:26:47.500 that Tammy Floyd

00:26:48.360 really, really liked.

00:26:49.680 She said,

00:26:50.060 that is the person

00:26:50.800 I saw

00:26:51.420 on February 20,

00:26:52.840 1987.

00:26:54.140 So eventually

00:26:55.380 we ended up

00:26:56.820 taking the other composite,

00:26:59.720 getting rid of that

00:27:00.660 and showing this.

00:27:01.880 It was introduced

00:27:02.480 by Jim Freeman

00:27:03.260 at a press conference

00:27:04.300 with the media

00:27:05.040 back in around

00:27:06.900 the end of

00:27:07.500 1994.

00:27:10.100 And it was

00:27:11.120 a major step

00:27:11.780 for us

00:27:12.180 and a major break

00:27:13.020 for us

00:27:13.400 because we had

00:27:14.660 a witness now

00:27:15.460 satisfied with what

00:27:16.680 she was trying

00:27:17.280 to articulate

00:27:17.820 and we had a composite

00:27:19.420 which we really

00:27:20.060 believed in.

00:27:21.880 And, you know,

00:27:22.220 now, of course,

00:27:23.080 we know what Ted

00:27:23.680 Kaczynski looked like

00:27:24.640 and I have to say

00:27:25.500 it's pretty striking.

00:27:27.220 This Tammy

00:27:27.740 did a damn good job.

00:27:29.480 You think about

00:27:30.120 eyewitness testimony

00:27:31.160 and how notoriously

00:27:32.420 unreliable it is,

00:27:33.500 but her,

00:27:35.180 if you pictured,

00:27:36.220 you know,

00:27:36.540 we'll show Ted Kaczynski

00:27:37.640 in the YouTube version

00:27:38.600 of this,

00:27:39.280 that guy was very scruffy

00:27:40.660 in sort of the perp walk

00:27:41.540 we saw him in

00:27:42.020 but you picture him

00:27:42.680 years earlier

00:27:43.340 with a hoodie

00:27:44.840 and the aviator glasses

00:27:47.480 and you could see

00:27:48.920 how accurate she was

00:27:50.560 and she went on saying

00:27:51.460 he's a white male,

00:27:52.720 I think he had

00:27:53.120 strawberry blonde hair,

00:27:54.120 he had a mustache,

00:27:54.840 he was on 5'10",

00:27:55.740 about 165 pounds,

00:27:57.080 a reddish complexion,

00:27:58.280 gray hooded sweatshirt,

00:27:59.140 aviator style sunglasses.

00:28:00.060 I mean,

00:28:00.920 this is an eyewitness

00:28:02.080 that's a dream, right?

00:28:03.320 It's like you don't

00:28:04.380 get a lot of these.

00:28:05.980 It was wonderful

00:28:06.780 and as you can imagine,

00:28:08.740 we were really buoyed

00:28:09.720 at that time

00:28:10.340 because when you're

00:28:11.160 years later

00:28:11.920 trying to put all this together

00:28:13.360 and you get a break

00:28:14.560 like that

00:28:15.060 and a witness like that,

00:28:16.300 it really is important.

00:28:17.800 One funny story though,

00:28:19.380 earlier we were talking

00:28:20.360 about Max Knoll

00:28:21.360 and you mentioned

00:28:22.860 the word brusque.

00:28:23.660 Well,

00:28:24.240 Max took Jeannie

00:28:25.240 out to Salt Lake

00:28:26.160 and sat down

00:28:26.800 with Tammy Floyd

00:28:27.540 but while Tammy Floyd

00:28:29.460 was articulating this

00:28:31.040 to Jeannie Boylan,

00:28:32.360 she had a daughter.

00:28:33.680 So Max was there

00:28:35.200 entertaining the daughter

00:28:37.900 by showing her

00:28:38.960 the Lion King.

00:28:40.280 So he was crawling around

00:28:41.540 on the floor

00:28:42.240 showing Lion King

00:28:43.740 while the business

00:28:44.800 was taking place

00:28:45.640 in the other room.

00:28:46.380 So, you know,

00:28:47.100 we do a lot of different things

00:28:48.360 but that was the call of duty

00:28:49.860 for Max

00:28:50.380 at that particular couple of hours.

00:28:51.740 That's amazing.

00:28:52.460 The senior respected FBI agent

00:28:54.060 trying to solve

00:28:54.620 a serial bomber case

00:28:56.080 out there

00:28:56.340 but this would have been

00:28:57.360 right up Max's alley

00:28:58.320 because he was like

00:28:59.100 hardcore evidence

00:29:00.480 not BS word comparisons

00:29:02.140 eyewitness pictures

00:29:03.620 like that's up his alley.

00:29:05.260 Okay, so

00:29:05.920 so while you're getting

00:29:07.860 the eyewitness ID

00:29:09.240 shorn up and so on

00:29:10.260 the FBI is trying

00:29:11.700 to gather data

00:29:13.540 like what

00:29:14.260 what can we figure out

00:29:15.240 about this guy?

00:29:15.760 We've had bombings

00:29:16.480 in Chicago.

00:29:17.560 We've had bombings

00:29:18.240 in California.

00:29:19.460 We've had bombings

00:29:20.240 in Utah

00:29:20.780 and you're trying

00:29:22.280 I mean

00:29:22.680 it sounds like

00:29:23.700 so simple in retrospect

00:29:24.760 once you know who he is

00:29:25.760 but it's

00:29:26.100 it truly is like

00:29:27.140 trying to find a needle

00:29:28.040 in a haystack

00:29:28.760 because yes

00:29:29.920 you can come up

00:29:30.380 with a profile

00:29:30.880 of somebody

00:29:31.340 who lived here

00:29:32.200 and then there

00:29:32.900 and then this third place

00:29:33.920 and this fourth place

00:29:34.640 but you don't know

00:29:35.900 when the person was born.

00:29:38.000 You figured out

00:29:38.760 he was probably

00:29:39.360 a college educated guy, right?

00:29:40.800 So like

00:29:41.160 how do you begin

00:29:42.760 and you talk about this

00:29:43.540 in the book

00:29:43.840 to create systems

00:29:45.800 that will

00:29:47.000 siphon down

00:29:48.180 the enormous

00:29:49.140 pool of people

00:29:50.140 who would fit

00:29:51.580 into those descriptions?

00:29:52.720 So when I first came over

00:29:55.340 Jim Freeman said

00:29:56.200 here's what I want you to do

00:29:57.340 this is the first thing

00:29:58.120 I want you to do

00:29:58.860 give me a proposed strategy

00:30:00.860 for how we're going

00:30:01.720 to address

00:30:02.360 exactly what you said

00:30:03.640 Megan.

00:30:04.340 So I went out

00:30:05.080 and I met with Max

00:30:06.040 I met with everybody

00:30:06.840 on the UTF

00:30:07.700 and started reading files

00:30:09.960 and then sat down

00:30:11.460 with everyone

00:30:12.040 the entire UTF

00:30:13.660 at that point in time

00:30:14.720 which was about

00:30:15.780 25-30 people

00:30:16.960 from those agencies

00:30:18.100 we talked about

00:30:18.940 and said

00:30:21.100 here's what I think

00:30:21.880 and here's what I've learned

00:30:22.680 and I'm going to articulate

00:30:23.500 this to the SAC

00:30:24.980 first of all

00:30:26.360 we need to reinvestigate

00:30:27.920 all of these

00:30:28.500 Unabomb crimes

00:30:29.360 one more time

00:30:30.540 only this time

00:30:31.800 we're going to do it different

00:30:32.920 we're not going to use

00:30:34.080 the FBI system

00:30:35.200 of lead offices

00:30:36.420 and auxiliary offices

00:30:38.200 and office of origin

00:30:39.320 what we're going to do

00:30:40.720 is send

00:30:41.660 Unabomb task force

00:30:43.600 teams

00:30:44.300 back to these offices

00:30:46.060 where all these

00:30:46.800 police departments

00:30:47.560 or the FBI

00:30:48.340 and the other agencies

00:30:50.060 ATF and Postal

00:30:51.060 had already done

00:30:51.760 investigation

00:30:52.260 and we're going to have

00:30:53.760 these teams

00:30:54.540 that are currently

00:30:55.280 on Unabomb

00:30:55.980 take a good

00:30:58.480 clean look

00:30:59.700 at all of these crimes

00:31:00.720 again

00:31:01.060 so secondly

00:31:02.340 I want everybody

00:31:02.960 to partner up

00:31:03.860 find a partner

00:31:04.940 because it's going to be

00:31:05.720 a long hard show

00:31:07.320 and so I want you

00:31:08.840 to get somebody

00:31:09.460 that you like being around

00:31:10.620 you're going to be

00:31:11.520 basically living

00:31:12.520 with these people

00:31:13.280 or with each other

00:31:14.460 so

00:31:14.800 they all chose up

00:31:16.360 sides

00:31:16.720 it didn't matter

00:31:17.300 if you were an ATF

00:31:18.120 FBI agent

00:31:18.900 it didn't matter

00:31:19.380 to me

00:31:19.640 what it was

00:31:20.540 just choose a partner

00:31:21.720 that if you're going

00:31:22.700 to go work out

00:31:23.360 in the morning

00:31:23.920 before you start

00:31:24.780 the day

00:31:25.120 fine

00:31:25.500 but the rest

00:31:26.460 of the day

00:31:26.900 you're going

00:31:27.200 to be

00:31:27.540 you're going

00:31:28.760 to be together

00:31:29.280 and maybe

00:31:30.240 late into the evening

00:31:31.440 even

00:31:31.680 so that's what

00:31:33.380 we did

00:31:33.840 and we started

00:31:34.640 the reinvestigation

00:31:35.640 but then

00:31:36.280 as we started

00:31:37.200 having tons

00:31:38.560 of new information

00:31:39.500 come in

00:31:40.020 we've talked

00:31:40.980 about the example

00:31:41.720 of the composite

00:31:42.880 well there was

00:31:43.760 tons of new

00:31:44.700 information

00:31:45.180 that we had missed

00:31:46.220 the first time around

00:31:48.380 and in subsequent

00:31:49.240 tries at this

00:31:50.740 so

00:31:51.580 we had to have

00:31:53.140 a way to sort it out

00:31:54.340 and we realized

00:31:56.320 at a certain point

00:31:57.220 as we were together

00:31:58.100 as the kind of

00:31:59.380 modern day UTF

00:32:00.180 in the 1994-96

00:32:02.400 time frame

00:32:03.000 that there was

00:32:04.540 a lot of

00:32:05.120 Unabomb myth

00:32:06.240 there was a lot

00:32:07.460 of fiction

00:32:08.120 there were a lot

00:32:09.760 of theories

00:32:10.380 and sometimes

00:32:11.520 those had crossed

00:32:12.420 the boundaries

00:32:13.080 and Unabomb myth

00:32:14.760 or fiction

00:32:15.640 had become

00:32:16.300 Unabomb fact

00:32:17.160 so we realized

00:32:18.600 this is toxic

00:32:19.680 and we're going

00:32:20.320 to have to

00:32:20.780 separate all this

00:32:21.780 so we created

00:32:23.320 something called

00:32:24.160 Unabomb fact

00:32:25.160 fiction and theory

00:32:26.120 and everyone

00:32:28.160 on the Unabomb task force

00:32:29.780 when we had

00:32:30.820 the first draft

00:32:31.720 of this document

00:32:32.560 received a copy

00:32:34.120 and every single week

00:32:36.340 when we brought

00:32:37.080 everything together

00:32:37.760 and we brought

00:32:38.260 everything together

00:32:38.900 by separate types

00:32:40.060 of meetings

00:32:40.620 that went on

00:32:41.680 all week

00:32:42.180 every week

00:32:42.700 we had to

00:32:45.340 be familiar

00:32:45.940 with

00:32:46.240 I mean it

00:32:46.560 was your

00:32:46.860 responsibility

00:32:47.660 I mean almost

00:32:48.360 your solemn

00:32:48.980 obligation

00:32:49.620 be familiar

00:32:51.100 with the most

00:32:51.940 updated version

00:32:53.140 of Unabomb

00:32:54.260 fact fiction

00:32:55.120 and theory

00:32:55.540 another thing

00:32:56.840 since you know

00:32:58.160 how the FBI

00:32:58.900 works Megan

00:33:00.020 we did something

00:33:01.100 that we hadn't

00:33:01.820 done before

00:33:02.400 either

00:33:02.700 and that is

00:33:03.460 whether you

00:33:04.740 were an FBI

00:33:05.520 agent

00:33:05.980 or you were

00:33:06.560 an FBI

00:33:07.040 analyst

00:33:07.480 or you were

00:33:08.300 an FBI

00:33:08.680 support employee

00:33:09.600 that did

00:33:10.340 something

00:33:10.660 in connection

00:33:11.200 with logistics

00:33:11.940 or the hotline

00:33:12.920 everybody

00:33:13.920 was expected

00:33:15.480 to be at

00:33:15.920 Unabomb meetings

00:33:16.740 everybody

00:33:17.460 had a seat

00:33:18.280 at the table

00:33:18.920 everybody's

00:33:20.020 opinion

00:33:20.500 and eyes

00:33:21.340 and ears

00:33:21.840 was important

00:33:22.600 and everybody

00:33:23.600 was encouraged

00:33:24.240 to speak up

00:33:24.940 because we

00:33:25.400 needed every

00:33:25.960 voice and every

00:33:26.640 brain we could

00:33:27.280 get

00:33:27.500 so that was

00:33:28.880 our guide

00:33:29.480 to those

00:33:29.980 discussions

00:33:30.600 the Unabomb

00:33:31.320 fact fiction

00:33:31.880 and theory

00:33:32.200 document

00:33:32.580 finally

00:33:33.080 to really

00:33:34.100 get to your

00:33:34.600 question

00:33:35.060 and the point

00:33:35.680 here

00:33:35.940 over all those

00:33:37.960 years of

00:33:38.420 investigation

00:33:39.080 all kinds

00:33:40.460 of agencies

00:33:41.080 assembled this

00:33:42.040 information

00:33:42.520 through all

00:33:43.040 kinds of

00:33:43.400 databases

00:33:43.860 none of

00:33:44.960 them were

00:33:45.300 compatible

00:33:45.840 so we

00:33:47.320 brought in

00:33:47.940 an outsider

00:33:48.640 the bureau

00:33:49.220 approved this

00:33:50.100 they brought

00:33:50.840 in an outside

00:33:51.640 consultant

00:33:52.220 who for one

00:33:53.540 year

00:33:53.880 from 1994

00:33:55.140 to the

00:33:56.280 I'd say

00:33:57.100 early summer

00:33:57.920 of 1995

00:33:58.980 took this

00:34:00.940 massive amount

00:34:02.140 of literally

00:34:02.920 millions of

00:34:03.880 bits of

00:34:04.360 data

00:34:04.760 put it all

00:34:06.320 together

00:34:06.780 in one

00:34:07.440 system

00:34:08.000 and

00:34:09.120 prepared it

00:34:10.420 so that we

00:34:11.200 could do

00:34:11.520 one thing

00:34:12.180 and that

00:34:13.060 was to

00:34:13.580 suddenly turn

00:34:14.340 Unabomb

00:34:14.800 into a

00:34:15.440 proactive

00:34:16.100 search

00:34:16.820 for Unabomb

00:34:17.900 suspects

00:34:18.680 who we

00:34:19.440 could tie

00:34:20.100 even when

00:34:20.700 we first

00:34:21.220 opened the

00:34:21.740 case up

00:34:22.380 to specific

00:34:23.720 geographical

00:34:24.440 areas

00:34:25.260 and we'd

00:34:26.140 never been

00:34:26.560 able to

00:34:27.000 do that

00:34:27.340 before

00:34:27.780 and that

00:34:28.380 was the

00:34:28.720 entire

00:34:29.240 purpose

00:34:29.820 of doing

00:34:30.380 this major

00:34:30.860 computer

00:34:31.240 project

00:34:31.680 and by

00:34:32.740 the time

00:34:33.520 that the

00:34:33.900 Unabomber

00:34:34.480 actually started

00:34:35.260 getting more

00:34:35.820 active

00:34:36.280 and corresponding

00:34:37.460 with us

00:34:38.360 we were

00:34:39.580 ready to

00:34:40.180 actually flip

00:34:40.880 the switch

00:34:41.620 got approval

00:34:43.300 from FBI

00:34:43.880 headquarters

00:34:44.360 for 24

00:34:45.220 7 operation

00:34:46.480 to then

00:34:47.920 send

00:34:48.340 analysts to

00:34:49.160 work in

00:34:49.600 San Francisco

00:34:50.200 during

00:34:50.780 around the

00:34:51.680 clock

00:34:51.940 and what

00:34:52.860 was really

00:34:53.320 ironic

00:34:53.780 is when

00:34:54.240 we asked

00:34:54.640 for terrorism

00:34:55.500 analysts

00:34:56.040 the bureau

00:34:57.040 said well

00:34:57.400 we don't

00:34:57.740 have

00:34:58.180 terrorism

00:34:58.760 analysts

00:34:59.220 but we'll

00:34:59.940 send you

00:35:00.320 all the

00:35:00.740 analysts

00:35:01.080 that we

00:35:01.400 can send

00:35:01.800 you

00:35:02.000 so that

00:35:02.600 you can

00:35:02.880 get this

00:35:03.260 job done

00:35:03.780 and staff

00:35:04.280 a 24

00:35:04.760 7 operation

00:35:05.720 and that's

00:35:06.440 exactly what

00:35:07.160 they did

00:35:07.580 so shortly

00:35:08.600 after that

00:35:09.480 and after

00:35:10.420 the attacks

00:35:11.100 in 1995

00:35:11.920 we began

00:35:13.480 the 24

00:35:14.920 7 operation

00:35:15.940 of developing

00:35:16.840 proactive

00:35:17.760 Unabombed

00:35:18.320 suspects

00:35:18.720 which would

00:35:20.280 eventually

00:35:20.920 teach us

00:35:22.820 so much

00:35:23.540 that when

00:35:24.320 the right

00:35:24.840 person came

00:35:25.680 along

00:35:26.200 it was

00:35:26.940 almost

00:35:27.220 miraculous

00:35:27.800 it just

00:35:28.400 all started

00:35:29.160 to fall

00:35:29.540 together

00:35:29.940 well it

00:35:30.920 was

00:35:31.080 fascinating

00:35:31.620 because

00:35:32.020 first of all

00:35:32.400 it's very

00:35:32.780 interesting

00:35:33.100 that this

00:35:33.480 is during

00:35:33.740 the Clinton

00:35:34.020 administration

00:35:34.560 and preceding

00:35:36.100 as well

00:35:36.380 we had

00:35:36.720 no

00:35:36.940 counterterrorism

00:35:38.160 force

00:35:38.900 going in

00:35:39.760 the FBI

00:35:40.200 and of course

00:35:40.860 we all know

00:35:41.400 what happened

00:35:41.760 at the end

00:35:42.180 of Bill

00:35:42.680 Clinton's

00:35:42.940 presidency

00:35:43.300 in the

00:35:43.580 beginning

00:35:43.800 of George

00:35:44.120 W.

00:35:44.420 Bush's

00:35:44.700 with 9-11

00:35:45.620 2001

00:35:46.140 we learned

00:35:46.700 a lot

00:35:47.240 in the ensuing

00:35:48.260 decade

00:35:48.820 about the

00:35:49.480 need for

00:35:50.100 that kind

00:35:50.640 of analysis

00:35:51.520 proactive

00:35:52.540 analysis

00:35:53.200 but I

00:35:55.120 one of the

00:35:55.740 things I

00:35:56.080 wondered

00:35:56.440 in sort

00:35:57.260 of watching

00:35:57.600 all this

00:35:57.840 unfold

00:35:58.220 was at

00:35:58.820 what point

00:35:59.540 did it

00:36:00.080 become

00:36:00.300 clear to

00:36:00.660 the public

00:36:01.220 that there

00:36:02.100 was a

00:36:02.420 Unabomber

00:36:02.940 because one

00:36:03.420 thing you

00:36:03.720 think about

00:36:04.280 is why

00:36:05.060 was anybody

00:36:05.900 opening a

00:36:07.500 package that

00:36:08.320 they weren't

00:36:08.800 certain was

00:36:09.940 safe and from

00:36:10.840 someone they

00:36:11.420 knew you

00:36:12.600 know past

00:36:13.160 bomb number

00:36:13.920 three right

00:36:14.700 like did it

00:36:15.780 need more

00:36:16.120 publicity were

00:36:17.000 we not

00:36:17.520 were we not

00:36:18.160 publicizing it

00:36:19.080 enough like how

00:36:20.120 could people

00:36:20.560 still be confused

00:36:21.420 into opening

00:36:22.640 unknown packages

00:36:23.320 I think one

00:36:25.700 of the big

00:36:26.140 problems was

00:36:26.920 that as

00:36:27.420 these

00:36:27.700 investigations

00:36:28.380 were proceed

00:36:29.100 right after

00:36:29.780 a bombing

00:36:30.240 people became

00:36:31.240 very familiar

00:36:31.880 with something

00:36:32.360 particularly after

00:36:33.100 Hugh Scrutton

00:36:33.800 was killed

00:36:34.300 was murdered

00:36:34.860 by the

00:36:35.220 Unabomber

00:36:35.700 and then

00:36:36.520 after 1987

00:36:37.800 when the

00:36:38.420 composite came

00:36:39.200 out and

00:36:39.700 places like

00:36:40.580 Reader's Digest

00:36:41.800 ran these

00:36:42.220 big articles

00:36:42.840 people were

00:36:44.560 tuning into

00:36:45.540 that but

00:36:46.340 then as

00:36:46.840 the leads

00:36:47.500 in the

00:36:47.780 investigation

00:36:48.300 would run

00:36:49.020 out

00:36:49.340 the contacts

00:36:51.380 with the

00:36:51.720 press would

00:36:52.100 kind of

00:36:52.400 stop and

00:36:54.180 and the

00:36:54.920 FBI would

00:36:55.440 become

00:36:55.780 distracted by

00:36:56.500 other things

00:36:57.220 and same

00:36:58.580 for the

00:36:58.920 Postal

00:36:59.260 Inspection

00:36:59.700 Service same

00:37:00.440 for the

00:37:00.760 ATF we

00:37:01.820 always had

00:37:02.500 one agent

00:37:03.400 his name

00:37:03.800 was John

00:37:04.360 Conway and

00:37:05.420 he's a he's

00:37:06.560 an amazing

00:37:07.000 guy because

00:37:07.780 during all

00:37:08.460 this time he

00:37:09.720 was still

00:37:10.140 assigned as

00:37:10.760 the case

00:37:11.260 agent for

00:37:11.800 Unabom and

00:37:13.000 at one

00:37:13.460 point in

00:37:13.900 time you

00:37:15.020 earlier had

00:37:15.860 mentioned that

00:37:16.640 break in

00:37:17.860 Unabom

00:37:18.300 activity

00:37:18.860 from 87

00:37:20.020 to 93

00:37:20.720 and that's

00:37:21.280 after he

00:37:21.680 was spotted

00:37:22.500 after he

00:37:22.920 was spotted

00:37:23.280 by the

00:37:23.620 eyewitness

00:37:23.940 Terry

00:37:24.320 exactly

00:37:26.480 and so

00:37:27.720 during that

00:37:29.080 time someone

00:37:30.160 at FBI

00:37:30.860 headquarters

00:37:31.600 actually told

00:37:33.380 John he

00:37:34.080 should close

00:37:34.840 the Unabom

00:37:35.440 case because

00:37:36.680 the Unabom

00:37:37.360 was probably

00:37:38.040 dead since

00:37:38.740 we hadn't

00:37:39.160 heard from

00:37:39.560 him for

00:37:39.860 years

00:37:40.200 and John

00:37:41.580 Conway

00:37:42.200 single

00:37:43.220 you know

00:37:44.400 singularly

00:37:44.880 working that

00:37:45.560 case with

00:37:46.600 no big

00:37:47.260 authority

00:37:47.740 helping him

00:37:48.760 at all

00:37:49.220 said look

00:37:50.280 that's just

00:37:50.960 a bad

00:37:51.580 idea

00:37:52.040 you cannot

00:37:52.840 close this

00:37:53.520 just because

00:37:54.060 we haven't

00:37:54.580 heard from

00:37:55.020 this guy

00:37:55.420 he cannot

00:37:56.620 be presumed

00:37:57.380 dead and

00:37:58.100 indeed he

00:37:58.860 was not

00:37:59.400 dead because

00:38:00.140 come along

00:38:01.120 June of

00:38:01.800 1993 there

00:38:03.360 were two

00:38:03.720 more bombings

00:38:04.420 within 48

00:38:05.220 hours and

00:38:06.220 3,000 miles

00:38:07.740 of one

00:38:09.060 another and

00:38:09.960 I want to

00:38:10.940 go back to

00:38:11.380 Kathy Puckett

00:38:12.460 for a minute

00:38:12.940 the behavioral

00:38:14.300 assessment

00:38:15.420 person and

00:38:16.720 she had

00:38:17.740 concluded

00:38:18.180 that and

00:38:18.800 I'm quoting

00:38:19.160 here from

00:38:19.480 your book

00:38:19.840 safety security

00:38:21.100 and secrecy

00:38:21.880 are of

00:38:22.360 paramount

00:38:22.880 importance

00:38:23.520 to the

00:38:23.880 Unabomber

00:38:24.340 he has a

00:38:25.120 strong sense

00:38:25.880 of self

00:38:26.260 protection

00:38:26.700 he would

00:38:27.480 have no

00:38:28.280 direct

00:38:28.680 connection to

00:38:29.340 either of

00:38:29.780 the individuals

00:38:30.400 targeted

00:38:31.240 saying that

00:38:33.200 would have

00:38:33.780 risked

00:38:34.280 exposure

00:38:35.040 his careful

00:38:37.040 and cautious

00:38:37.660 nature she

00:38:38.520 believed is

00:38:39.420 what drove him

00:38:40.140 underground after

00:38:41.120 having been

00:38:41.680 spotted by Terry

00:38:42.620 so in a way

00:38:43.360 that eyewitness

00:38:44.040 moment with

00:38:44.700 with Terry

00:38:45.340 could have

00:38:46.220 saved a lot

00:38:46.700 of lives

00:38:47.080 I mean

00:38:47.360 who knows

00:38:48.080 he might

00:38:48.900 have been

00:38:49.240 above ground

00:38:50.000 bombing for

00:38:50.560 all that time

00:38:51.140 but it took

00:38:51.880 seven years

00:38:52.340 before he

00:38:52.720 regained his

00:38:53.300 confidence

00:38:54.480 and what

00:38:56.620 was the

00:38:56.920 nature of

00:38:57.300 the bombings

00:38:57.820 in June

00:38:58.220 of 1993

00:38:59.000 in June

00:39:00.680 of 1993

00:39:01.500 after not

00:39:02.360 hearing from

00:39:03.000 the Unabomber

00:39:03.680 we heard from

00:39:04.380 him as you

00:39:04.860 said

00:39:05.180 simultaneous

00:39:06.020 bombings

00:39:06.860 the first

00:39:07.700 one was

00:39:08.240 directed at

00:39:09.060 a geneticist

00:39:10.140 Dr. Charles

00:39:11.560 Epstein

00:39:12.000 who lived

00:39:13.020 in

00:39:13.240 Timberon

00:39:13.600 California

00:39:14.060 and he

00:39:15.240 received a

00:39:15.780 bomb one

00:39:16.220 day in

00:39:16.820 his home

00:39:17.420 and the

00:39:19.400 device went

00:39:19.960 off when

00:39:21.080 he went to

00:39:21.500 open it

00:39:21.860 it was a

00:39:22.280 much smaller

00:39:23.020 compact bomb

00:39:24.380 it was about

00:39:25.360 the size of

00:39:26.040 a videocassette

00:39:26.960 as far as

00:39:27.500 a package

00:39:28.040 and later

00:39:29.620 we would see

00:39:30.380 the Unabomber

00:39:31.080 write that

00:39:32.100 I took the

00:39:33.160 time off

00:39:33.740 or while I

00:39:34.300 was taking

00:39:34.740 the time off

00:39:35.380 I perfected

00:39:36.740 or we

00:39:37.140 he always

00:39:37.620 referred to

00:39:38.380 Unabomber

00:39:39.200 as we

00:39:39.820 the terror

00:39:40.440 group

00:39:40.760 FC

00:39:41.080 and I

00:39:41.500 should

00:39:41.680 make sure

00:39:42.100 I say

00:39:42.380 that here

00:39:42.720 and we

00:39:43.940 perfected

00:39:44.820 a smaller

00:39:45.480 more lethal

00:39:46.140 bomb

00:39:46.620 that we

00:39:47.240 can put

00:39:47.580 in the

00:39:47.800 mail stream

00:39:48.360 and that's

00:39:49.660 exactly what

00:39:50.400 Professor Epstein

00:39:51.220 went to

00:39:51.720 open

00:39:52.080 and was

00:39:53.000 very very

00:39:53.540 seriously

00:39:53.940 injured

00:39:54.400 two days

00:39:55.900 later

00:39:56.280 on the

00:39:57.080 entire

00:39:57.860 opposite

00:39:58.580 coast

00:39:59.020 at Yale

00:39:59.420 University

00:40:00.020 a computer

00:40:02.180 scientist

00:40:02.740 Dr. David

00:40:03.420 Galerter

00:40:03.900 received a

00:40:05.020 bomb in the

00:40:05.400 mail

00:40:05.580 he was at

00:40:06.140 his office

00:40:06.640 at Yale

00:40:07.140 and when

00:40:07.900 he went

00:40:08.380 to open

00:40:08.720 his package

00:40:09.260 the same

00:40:09.860 thing

00:40:10.260 and right

00:40:11.900 after that

00:40:12.700 the New York

00:40:13.820 Times has

00:40:14.580 a letter

00:40:15.060 postmarked

00:40:16.160 before it

00:40:16.640 and before

00:40:17.500 those events

00:40:18.020 and they

00:40:19.220 get a

00:40:19.900 letter from

00:40:20.440 the Unabomber

00:40:21.000 the terror

00:40:21.500 group FC

00:40:22.120 as he

00:40:22.620 calls them

00:40:23.200 and it

00:40:24.020 says look

00:40:24.440 our group

00:40:25.320 is providing

00:40:25.880 you with

00:40:26.280 a number

00:40:26.700 this is

00:40:27.300 our own

00:40:28.100 secret

00:40:28.560 identification

00:40:29.160 number

00:40:29.740 the FBI

00:40:30.980 knows of

00:40:31.620 us

00:40:31.920 we're the

00:40:32.420 terror

00:40:32.680 group FC

00:40:33.320 now the

00:40:34.320 reason he

00:40:34.680 said that

00:40:35.220 is on

00:40:35.540 some of

00:40:36.020 the bomb

00:40:36.500 on the

00:40:37.500 in plugs

00:40:38.640 of the

00:40:38.940 pipes

00:40:39.300 and on

00:40:40.120 debris

00:40:40.480 in the

00:40:40.780 bomb

00:40:41.100 crime

00:40:41.980 seats

00:40:42.260 we had

00:40:42.840 found

00:40:43.380 embedded

00:40:44.420 on the

00:40:44.960 metals

00:40:45.440 the

00:40:45.840 letters

00:40:47.000 FC

00:40:47.360 so not

00:40:48.680 on all

00:40:48.980 the bombs

00:40:49.440 but on

00:40:50.040 some of

00:40:50.400 them

00:40:50.560 so we

00:40:51.200 knew

00:40:51.480 that

00:40:51.840 the

00:40:52.180 Unabomber

00:40:52.560 was also

00:40:52.980 going by

00:40:53.980 the

00:40:54.520 letters

00:40:55.120 FC

00:40:55.520 so

00:40:56.600 he told

00:40:57.780 the New

00:40:58.000 York

00:40:58.140 Times

00:40:58.420 this

00:40:58.760 and

00:40:59.680 of course

00:41:00.360 the New

00:41:00.660 York

00:41:00.840 Times

00:41:01.180 turned the

00:41:01.660 letter

00:41:01.880 over to

00:41:02.400 us

00:41:03.320 and now

00:41:04.140 we know

00:41:04.660 and this

00:41:05.200 was

00:41:05.360 significant

00:41:05.920 and it

00:41:06.780 certainly

00:41:07.080 was

00:41:07.300 significant

00:41:07.700 to the

00:41:08.580 then AG

00:41:09.280 Janet Reno

00:41:10.120 and FBI

00:41:10.640 Director

00:41:10.980 Free

00:41:11.220 both of

00:41:11.680 whom

00:41:11.780 were

00:41:11.900 relatively

00:41:12.300 new

00:41:13.180 on the

00:41:13.440 job

00:41:13.860 they

00:41:15.540 knew

00:41:15.900 that

00:41:16.240 the

00:41:16.400 Unabomber

00:41:16.860 now has

00:41:17.220 come back

00:41:17.640 to life

00:41:18.080 in a

00:41:18.400 big

00:41:18.600 way

00:41:19.120 we

00:41:19.760 hadn't

00:41:20.020 heard

00:41:20.220 from him

00:41:20.600 for all

00:41:20.940 those

00:41:21.120 years

00:41:21.460 now he's

00:41:22.580 back

00:41:23.000 now he's

00:41:23.840 killed

00:41:24.100 or almost

00:41:24.900 killed

00:41:25.160 two people

00:41:25.720 on each

00:41:26.260 coast

00:41:26.660 and so

00:41:27.820 we have

00:41:28.800 to really

00:41:29.180 get after

00:41:29.720 this

00:41:30.140 and so

00:41:30.920 they

00:41:31.480 ordered

00:41:32.040 that a

00:41:32.920 task force

00:41:33.540 be established

00:41:34.280 that it

00:41:34.980 be set up

00:41:35.480 in the

00:41:35.740 San Francisco

00:41:36.340 division of

00:41:36.940 the FBI

00:41:37.380 and they

00:41:38.320 sent FBI

00:41:39.580 officials out

00:41:40.620 from FBI

00:41:41.200 headquarters

00:41:41.720 to run

00:41:42.840 that task

00:41:43.600 force

00:41:43.900 so between

00:41:44.880 June of

00:41:45.520 1993

00:41:46.160 and around

00:41:47.620 April of

00:41:48.260 1994

00:41:48.960 eight or

00:41:50.420 nine FBI

00:41:51.040 officials were

00:41:51.980 running the

00:41:52.700 Unabom investigation

00:41:53.680 from San

00:41:54.720 Francisco

00:41:55.200 and this

00:41:57.140 is when

00:41:57.540 according to

00:41:58.040 your book

00:41:58.680 Max

00:41:59.080 Knoll

00:41:59.380 pulls

00:41:59.720 aside

00:42:00.060 some

00:42:00.260 top

00:42:00.640 FBI

00:42:01.480 officials

00:42:01.920 I

00:42:02.380 believe

00:42:02.940 it

00:42:03.080 was

00:42:03.220 at

00:42:03.360 a

00:42:03.460 meeting

00:42:03.640 where

00:42:03.800 the

00:42:03.900 director

00:42:04.220 free

00:42:04.540 was

00:42:04.720 present

00:42:05.060 and

00:42:05.360 says

00:42:05.860 the

00:42:06.380 truth

00:42:06.680 which

00:42:06.940 is

00:42:07.160 we're

00:42:07.600 not

00:42:07.800 getting

00:42:08.000 the

00:42:08.120 resources

00:42:08.480 we

00:42:08.680 need

00:42:08.980 loops

00:42:10.100 are

00:42:10.280 not

00:42:10.460 being

00:42:10.700 closed

00:42:11.200 this

00:42:11.680 needs

00:42:11.840 to be

00:42:12.020 taken

00:42:12.220 more

00:42:12.440 seriously

00:42:12.920 I

00:42:13.700 want

00:42:13.940 my

00:42:14.140 evidence

00:42:14.700 and

00:42:15.280 he

00:42:15.700 gets

00:42:15.860 taken

00:42:16.100 very

00:42:16.340 seriously

00:42:16.840 the

00:42:17.160 FBI

00:42:17.440 does

00:42:17.740 start

00:42:17.940 to

00:42:18.060 throw

00:42:18.240 resources

00:42:18.740 at

00:42:19.020 this

00:42:19.220 after

00:42:19.400 these

00:42:19.620 double

00:42:19.900 bombings

00:42:20.400 but

00:42:21.040 two

00:42:21.280 more

00:42:21.520 people

00:42:21.900 were

00:42:22.200 about

00:42:22.480 to

00:42:22.700 die

00:42:23.020 that's

00:42:23.440 where

00:42:23.520 we're

00:42:23.620 going

00:42:23.700 to

00:42:23.780 pick

00:42:23.920 it

00:42:24.020 up

00:42:24.160 with

00:42:24.320 Terry

00:42:24.600 on

00:42:25.240 the

00:42:25.380 unibomber

00:42:25.860 investigation

00:42:26.400 right after

00:42:26.820 this

00:42:27.000 quick

00:42:27.280 break

00:42:27.580 and

00:42:28.380 programming

00:42:28.840 note

00:42:29.100 for you

00:42:29.440 remember

00:42:29.820 that

00:42:30.020 you

00:42:30.100 can

00:42:30.240 find

00:42:30.520 the

00:42:30.660 Megyn Kelly

00:42:31.080 show

00:42:31.300 on

00:42:31.440 Sirius XM

00:42:32.140 Triumph

00:42:32.620 Channel

00:42:33.000 111

00:42:33.560 every weekday

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00:42:35.440 and the

00:42:36.120 full

00:42:36.260 video

00:42:36.520 show

00:42:36.740 and

00:42:36.860 clips

00:42:37.140 when

00:42:37.340 you

00:42:37.440 subscribe

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00:42:39.320 slash

00:42:39.580 Megyn Kelly

00:42:40.100 if you

00:42:40.820 prefer

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00:42:47.160 your podcast

00:42:47.800 and there

00:42:48.220 you will

00:42:48.500 find

00:42:48.820 our full

00:42:49.860 archives

00:42:50.400 over

00:42:50.680 200

00:42:51.260 shows

00:42:51.660 now

00:42:52.000 back

00:42:58.080 with me

00:42:58.340 now

00:42:58.520 Terry

00:42:58.780 Turchie

00:42:59.160 who directed

00:42:59.720 the FBI

00:43:00.180 task force

00:43:00.900 that helped

00:43:01.600 identify

00:43:02.060 and arrest

00:43:03.160 unibomber

00:43:04.140 Ted Kaczynski

00:43:04.940 the book

00:43:05.920 intersperses

00:43:06.600 bits of

00:43:07.240 Ted Kaczynski

00:43:07.880 manifesto

00:43:08.700 the unibomber

00:43:09.220 manifesto

00:43:10.500 in between

00:43:11.780 the crimes

00:43:12.240 and helps

00:43:12.600 us get

00:43:12.860 to know

00:43:13.260 him

00:43:13.560 and understand

00:43:14.460 him

00:43:14.880 to the extent

00:43:15.680 one can

00:43:16.200 there are

00:43:17.400 quotes like

00:43:18.040 this

00:43:18.740 quote

00:43:19.060 since committing

00:43:19.700 the crimes

00:43:20.240 reported

00:43:20.640 elsewhere

00:43:20.980 in my

00:43:21.320 notes

00:43:21.620 I feel

00:43:22.620 better

00:43:23.000 you can

00:43:23.740 see him

00:43:24.200 working

00:43:24.540 something

00:43:24.820 I'm starting

00:43:25.160 to feel

00:43:25.540 better

00:43:25.760 now that

00:43:26.080 he's

00:43:26.260 starting

00:43:26.460 to hurt

00:43:27.120 more

00:43:27.320 people

00:43:27.700 and kill

00:43:28.300 more

00:43:28.540 people

00:43:28.960 and

00:43:29.900 Kathy's

00:43:30.760 assessment

00:43:31.380 of him

00:43:31.920 was that

00:43:32.240 this is

00:43:32.560 a guy

00:43:33.020 who

00:43:33.860 wanted

00:43:34.460 to present

00:43:35.060 himself

00:43:35.500 as a

00:43:35.900 rational

00:43:36.320 revolutionary

00:43:37.080 attacking

00:43:37.880 the industrial

00:43:38.820 technological

00:43:39.940 system

00:43:40.500 that he

00:43:40.800 opposes

00:43:41.260 for the

00:43:41.840 good of

00:43:42.100 the public

00:43:42.600 she said

00:43:43.360 he's simply

00:43:43.920 seeking attention

00:43:44.700 for himself

00:43:45.460 she believed

00:43:46.000 he had

00:43:46.280 obsessive

00:43:46.680 compulsive

00:43:47.100 personality

00:43:48.380 that his

00:43:49.240 devices are

00:43:49.840 meticulous

00:43:50.360 a real

00:43:50.660 pride

00:43:51.160 in its

00:43:51.580 workmanship

00:43:52.160 she says

00:43:53.120 people like

00:43:53.720 this are

00:43:54.460 very organized

00:43:55.420 perfectionists

00:43:56.140 can be

00:43:56.440 very polite

00:43:57.260 may seem

00:43:58.060 very cold

00:43:58.720 to others

00:43:59.460 I would

00:44:00.360 later find

00:44:00.760 this interesting

00:44:01.320 Terry

00:44:01.660 myself

00:44:02.020 because

00:44:02.480 he probably

00:44:03.980 was

00:44:04.360 obsessive

00:44:04.760 compulsive

00:44:05.100 and a

00:44:05.380 perfectionist

00:44:05.940 but when

00:44:06.260 you guys

00:44:06.500 found him

00:44:07.000 he was

00:44:07.220 totally

00:44:07.560 unkempt

00:44:08.220 and disgusting

00:44:08.800 and smelled

00:44:09.380 bad

00:44:09.640 and hadn't

00:44:10.220 showered

00:44:11.040 and I

00:44:11.260 just

00:44:11.440 that was

00:44:11.960 one of

00:44:12.160 the things

00:44:12.440 that sort

00:44:12.660 of jumped

00:44:12.960 out at me

00:44:13.360 is like

00:44:13.640 oh how

00:44:13.960 how weird

00:44:14.860 you think

00:44:15.180 of that

00:44:15.380 you know

00:44:15.600 obsessive

00:44:16.160 you think

00:44:16.400 he'd be

00:44:16.860 you know

00:44:17.340 rigidly

00:44:17.780 clean

00:44:18.140 but anyway

00:44:19.120 sort of

00:44:19.640 to jump

00:44:20.260 back

00:44:20.700 you're trying

00:44:21.480 to figure

00:44:21.760 out a

00:44:22.040 psychological

00:44:22.460 profile

00:44:22.980 and now

00:44:23.400 you've

00:44:23.580 got the

00:44:23.860 full team

00:44:24.280 on it

00:44:24.540 now director

00:44:25.120 free

00:44:25.360 has stepped

00:44:25.700 in

00:44:25.920 janna

00:44:26.120 reno

00:44:26.400 has stepped

00:44:26.760 in

00:44:26.960 they're

00:44:27.200 listening

00:44:27.680 to you

00:44:28.100 guys

00:44:28.320 finally

00:44:28.760 giving

00:44:29.080 you the

00:44:29.320 resources

00:44:37.000 that be

00:44:37.400 take us

00:44:38.100 to

00:44:38.440 december

00:44:38.920 10th

00:44:39.380 1994

00:44:40.060 yes

00:44:41.540 it was

00:44:42.120 a terrible

00:44:42.860 day

00:44:43.340 jim

00:44:44.380 was

00:44:44.680 it was

00:44:45.080 a weekend

00:44:45.520 i got

00:44:46.280 a call

00:44:46.720 from

00:44:47.100 the east

00:44:47.680 coast

00:44:48.040 and there

00:44:48.320 had been

00:44:48.500 a bombing

00:44:48.980 in north

00:44:49.980 calwell

00:44:50.300 new jersey

00:44:50.840 and it

00:44:51.580 turned out

00:44:51.940 to be

00:44:52.380 at the

00:44:53.180 home of

00:44:53.520 thomas

00:44:53.820 moser

00:44:54.280 who was

00:44:54.680 a major

00:44:55.460 ad

00:44:55.700 executive

00:44:56.120 at the

00:44:56.680 firm

00:44:57.060 burson

00:44:57.420 marsteller

00:44:57.940 and he

00:44:59.660 had been

00:45:00.120 traveling

00:45:01.360 out of

00:45:01.820 the country

00:45:02.300 this was

00:45:03.440 near christmas

00:45:04.220 so the

00:45:04.840 family was

00:45:05.320 getting ready

00:45:05.760 to go

00:45:06.460 and

00:45:06.720 find a

00:45:07.600 christmas

00:45:07.900 tree

00:45:08.160 so he

00:45:08.960 was in

00:45:09.120 the kitchen

00:45:09.520 going through

00:45:09.960 his mail

00:45:10.420 and one

00:45:11.380 of the

00:45:11.600 things he

00:45:11.920 picked up

00:45:12.360 was this

00:45:12.760 package

00:45:13.220 that looked

00:45:14.240 like a

00:45:14.540 videocassette

00:45:15.180 and the

00:45:16.120 kids had

00:45:16.540 just left

00:45:17.260 the kitchen

00:45:17.740 when he

00:45:18.080 went to

00:45:18.380 open this

00:45:19.000 and this

00:45:19.740 was such

00:45:20.280 a terrible

00:45:20.860 lethal

00:45:21.300 bomb

00:45:21.800 that it

00:45:23.120 killed

00:45:24.200 mr moser

00:45:25.060 just about

00:45:26.360 instantly

00:45:26.840 and it

00:45:27.820 the shrapnel

00:45:29.320 from this

00:45:29.840 bomb

00:45:30.220 filled

00:45:31.060 you know

00:45:31.700 how people

00:45:32.240 will have

00:45:32.740 their frying

00:45:33.740 pans

00:45:34.260 over their

00:45:34.920 stoves

00:45:35.420 those kind

00:45:35.960 of

00:45:36.180 presentations

00:45:37.440 so some

00:45:38.360 of these

00:45:38.640 nails

00:45:38.940 actually

00:45:39.440 the force

00:45:40.220 of the

00:45:40.480 blast

00:45:40.880 drove them

00:45:41.920 through these

00:45:42.540 cast iron

00:45:43.660 skillets

00:45:44.420 and so

00:45:45.340 there was

00:45:45.900 debris

00:45:46.220 everywhere

00:45:46.740 i called

00:45:48.060 jim freeman

00:45:48.780 told him

00:45:49.640 what had

00:45:49.940 happened

00:45:50.340 told him

00:45:51.460 what we

00:45:51.820 were thinking

00:45:52.700 might be

00:45:53.680 going on

00:45:54.400 we couldn't

00:45:55.760 exactly say

00:45:56.680 or declare

00:45:57.160 it was a

00:45:57.520 unabomb crime

00:45:58.180 scene at that

00:45:58.740 time

00:45:59.040 but i

00:46:00.240 called tom

00:46:00.800 manol

00:46:01.300 in washington

00:46:02.420 dc

00:46:02.720 now at

00:46:03.080 the time

00:46:03.520 tom was

00:46:04.240 our main

00:46:04.960 laboratory

00:46:05.500 examiner

00:46:06.260 and tom

00:46:07.220 was this

00:46:08.020 fabulous

00:46:09.700 bomb

00:46:10.680 explosives

00:46:11.140 person

00:46:11.580 who not

00:46:12.540 only knew

00:46:12.900 unabomb

00:46:13.340 but he

00:46:13.700 could just

00:46:14.000 about talk

00:46:14.760 with his

00:46:15.120 eyes closed

00:46:15.640 about bombs

00:46:16.340 and explosives

00:46:16.960 and so

00:46:17.360 we asked him

00:46:18.380 to go

00:46:18.680 i'm sorry

00:46:19.800 was he the

00:46:20.500 postal service

00:46:21.160 guy

00:46:21.440 no he

00:46:22.640 was at

00:46:23.060 the fbi

00:46:23.580 lab

00:46:23.980 okay

00:46:24.260 and was

00:46:25.120 our fbi

00:46:25.600 lab examiner

00:46:26.360 who actually

00:46:26.820 had the

00:46:27.320 ticket on

00:46:27.820 unabomb

00:46:28.280 as far as

00:46:28.780 forensics

00:46:29.300 now

00:46:29.580 because all

00:46:30.880 of the lab

00:46:31.340 examinations

00:46:32.020 that had been

00:46:32.480 done all

00:46:32.880 those years

00:46:33.360 we folded

00:46:33.940 into just

00:46:34.660 the fbi

00:46:35.180 lab

00:46:35.600 so he

00:46:36.460 was kind

00:46:36.900 of in

00:46:37.120 the hot

00:46:37.440 seat when

00:46:37.860 there was

00:46:38.120 an explosion

00:46:38.800 so um

00:46:40.260 tom went

00:46:41.580 to new

00:46:41.920 jersey

00:46:42.260 he called

00:46:43.160 when he

00:46:43.420 got there

00:46:44.000 they got

00:46:44.640 him to

00:46:44.900 the house

00:46:45.340 in north

00:46:45.700 call well

00:46:46.180 he called

00:46:46.600 before he

00:46:47.120 went in

00:46:47.580 we had

00:46:48.300 to wait

00:46:48.660 a while

00:46:48.940 because after

00:46:49.500 an explosion

00:46:50.040 there are

00:46:51.040 significant

00:46:51.820 gases in

00:46:52.580 the house

00:46:52.940 there are a

00:46:53.340 lot of

00:46:53.640 things going

00:46:54.080 on you have

00:46:54.460 to be really

00:46:54.820 careful of

00:46:55.380 course and

00:46:56.180 so when

00:46:56.740 tom went

00:46:57.380 in there

00:46:57.920 uh he

00:46:59.340 almost came

00:47:00.060 out immediately

00:47:00.680 megan and

00:47:01.300 he got on

00:47:01.920 the phone he

00:47:02.440 said he

00:47:02.800 called me

00:47:03.100 back he

00:47:03.480 said terry

00:47:03.860 this is

00:47:04.160 unabomb

00:47:04.660 uh i saw

00:47:05.880 the fragments

00:47:06.800 on the

00:47:07.200 floor some

00:47:08.140 of the

00:47:08.480 switches that

00:47:09.460 are fragments

00:47:10.340 of switches

00:47:10.840 from this

00:47:11.440 bomb all

00:47:12.660 of this

00:47:13.080 has unabomb

00:47:13.860 written all

00:47:14.300 over it

00:47:14.740 so called

00:47:15.720 jim jim

00:47:16.260 came into

00:47:16.700 the office

00:47:17.340 called uh

00:47:18.780 and uh

00:47:19.520 dispatched

00:47:19.960 some of our

00:47:20.560 a couple of

00:47:21.040 our agents

00:47:21.520 and a postal

00:47:22.080 inspector to

00:47:22.900 new jersey

00:47:23.440 they would

00:47:24.380 work on

00:47:24.880 the ground

00:47:25.300 there and

00:47:25.780 help coordinate

00:47:26.340 the actual

00:47:26.840 investigation

00:47:27.480 and then

00:47:28.620 by monday

00:47:29.340 morning that

00:47:29.960 was on the

00:47:30.340 weekend by

00:47:30.840 monday

00:47:31.220 morning we

00:47:32.260 were having

00:47:32.740 conferences with

00:47:33.600 fbi hq uh

00:47:35.620 of course uh

00:47:36.660 this now really

00:47:37.580 raised the

00:47:38.140 temperature and

00:47:39.580 uh during one

00:47:40.500 of those

00:47:40.820 conferences someone

00:47:42.220 at fbi hq

00:47:43.560 said well

00:47:44.040 turkey you need

00:47:45.120 to be back in

00:47:45.800 new jersey uh

00:47:47.300 jim freeman

00:47:47.900 basically put his

00:47:49.460 finger on the

00:47:50.660 mute part of the

00:47:51.400 phone he goes

00:47:51.880 i'll answer that

00:47:52.720 question and

00:47:53.900 said no you're

00:47:54.460 not going back

00:47:55.200 to new jersey

00:47:55.760 told them i'm

00:47:56.640 not coming back

00:47:57.300 to new jersey

00:47:57.940 and about this

00:47:58.560 time uh max

00:48:00.340 said and another

00:48:01.160 thing uh you

00:48:02.980 you people don't

00:48:03.860 even know this

00:48:04.520 case you don't

00:48:05.300 even understand

00:48:05.920 some of the

00:48:06.460 leads were

00:48:06.840 working in the

00:48:07.380 case and so

00:48:07.920 that started us

00:48:08.960 down the road

00:48:09.640 of what you

00:48:10.560 mentioned at the

00:48:11.160 break before we

00:48:12.320 knew it a few

00:48:12.880 weeks or a

00:48:13.520 couple weeks uh

00:48:14.360 later director

00:48:15.440 free was on his

00:48:16.280 way to to see

00:48:17.300 us all at uh

00:48:19.360 the fbi in san

00:48:20.340 francisco and

00:48:21.480 of particular

00:48:22.140 concern and

00:48:23.320 kind of to show

00:48:24.080 you how things

00:48:24.580 can work in the

00:48:25.260 bureau he put

00:48:26.420 out the word and

00:48:27.140 he told the

00:48:27.560 sac you don't

00:48:28.560 need to be at

00:48:29.080 this meeting i

00:48:29.760 want to talk to

00:48:30.580 the unabomb

00:48:31.180 agents and the

00:48:32.800 people working

00:48:33.520 uh unabomb and

00:48:34.760 uh and terchi so

00:48:35.900 uh of course you

00:48:37.520 can imagine how

00:48:38.140 jim is feeling

00:48:38.760 about all this so

00:48:39.660 jim met him at

00:48:40.660 the airport uh

00:48:42.640 they had a

00:48:43.400 cordial meeting and

00:48:44.160 then we had a

00:48:44.760 meeting of all the

00:48:45.540 uh the brass from

00:48:46.580 the other agents

00:48:47.280 and then i found

00:48:48.860 myself it was like

00:48:50.180 all of a sudden

00:48:50.820 okay uh terry and

00:48:52.700 i are going to go

00:48:53.140 down and address

00:48:53.780 the unabomb task

00:48:54.620 force and i found

00:48:55.560 myself alone in

00:48:56.380 the hallway with

00:48:57.020 the fbi director

00:48:57.860 and walking down

00:48:59.280 the hall and and

00:49:01.160 and i referred to

00:49:02.460 him as director

00:49:02.960 free and he

00:49:03.880 immediately turns

00:49:04.660 and says uh

00:49:05.500 call me louie

00:49:06.420 oh boy and so

00:49:07.580 we walk in we

00:49:08.540 walk into the and

00:49:09.500 i i couldn't do

00:49:10.320 that i it was just

00:49:11.360 hard to say that

00:49:12.220 but anyway we

00:49:13.300 walk into the

00:49:14.020 office and the

00:49:15.120 utf is there and

00:49:16.940 uh you can

00:49:17.780 imagine or

00:49:18.700 probably maybe

00:49:19.660 you can't imagine

00:49:20.520 or maybe many

00:49:21.160 people and how

00:49:22.020 you feel when

00:49:23.620 the case is now

00:49:24.720 dramatically different

00:49:25.680 you've been

00:49:26.300 working to

00:49:27.140 identify and get

00:49:28.060 this person off

00:49:28.920 the street but

00:49:30.140 now on your

00:49:30.860 watch someone

00:49:31.800 else is murdered

00:49:32.820 and this now

00:49:34.720 is happening to

00:49:35.420 us it was our

00:49:36.880 absolute most

00:49:38.580 worst nightmare

00:49:39.440 and that's how

00:49:40.520 everyone felt i

00:49:41.660 mean everyone

00:49:42.320 was absolutely

00:49:44.180 depressed i mean

00:49:45.620 i think people

00:49:47.060 look at fbi

00:49:47.840 agents as well

00:49:48.620 they're the

00:49:49.400 professionals they're

00:49:50.220 going to get this

00:49:50.840 done one way or

00:49:51.700 the other we

00:49:53.040 were absolutely

00:49:54.240 devastated and

00:49:55.740 so this is the

00:49:56.880 backdrop as

00:49:57.940 director free walked

00:49:59.040 in to address all

00:50:00.040 of us so during

00:50:01.520 this conversation

00:50:02.620 and he was very

00:50:03.480 gracious and and

00:50:04.600 very nice and

00:50:05.640 and we had a

00:50:06.600 very good talk

00:50:07.460 but at some

00:50:08.240 point max said

00:50:10.220 look i have to

00:50:11.500 tell you there's

00:50:12.420 a lot of things

00:50:13.100 that are not

00:50:13.560 getting done

00:50:14.180 i've sent 62

00:50:16.100 questions off to

00:50:17.320 the fbi lab about

00:50:18.560 previous bombings

00:50:19.580 they've still never

00:50:20.540 been answered

00:50:21.200 terry's been on

00:50:22.380 the phone but

00:50:22.900 they're still not

00:50:23.780 answering our

00:50:24.240 questions uh we

00:50:25.960 are trying to do

00:50:27.020 certain things with

00:50:28.160 with leads and

00:50:29.260 with investigation

00:50:29.960 and many of the

00:50:31.380 special agents in

00:50:32.260 charge aren't

00:50:32.860 prioritizing this

00:50:33.860 exactly so so

00:50:34.940 let me just pause

00:50:35.680 you there let me

00:50:36.780 pause you there

00:50:37.240 because there's so

00:50:37.700 much to pick up

00:50:38.180 on because max

00:50:39.360 you know i won't

00:50:40.300 say lit a bomb

00:50:41.000 but lit a fire

00:50:42.440 uh as did the

00:50:44.040 your small group

00:50:45.360 and finally they

00:50:46.860 listened how they

00:50:48.540 caught the unabomber

00:50:49.960 right after this

00:50:50.720 break

00:50:50.920 so by the time

00:50:57.200 terry of that

00:50:57.880 meeting with fbi

00:50:59.120 director free and

00:51:00.520 max going off and

00:51:01.700 you and jim freeman

00:51:02.780 just trying to jump

00:51:03.520 up and down and

00:51:04.120 say you know we

00:51:04.820 need resources come

00:51:05.740 on like this is

00:51:06.620 inexcusable and he

00:51:08.060 listened and and

00:51:09.080 you got him um

00:51:10.500 the unabomber had

00:51:11.340 already just killed

00:51:12.380 another man he

00:51:13.840 would go on to

00:51:14.480 kill yet another

00:51:15.560 man uh gilbert

00:51:16.740 murray in sacramento

00:51:17.980 um and then he

00:51:19.660 would threaten to

00:51:20.280 bring down an

00:51:20.840 aircraft in flight

00:51:22.000 uh which you took

00:51:23.420 very seriously for

00:51:24.340 the reasons we

00:51:25.020 discussed earlier

00:51:25.880 so but the the

00:51:27.520 biggest and most

00:51:28.640 important break in

00:51:29.740 the case was about

00:51:31.660 to come when did

00:51:33.220 you first get word

00:51:34.160 of the quote

00:51:35.720 manifesto

00:51:36.720 so mr murray as

00:51:38.860 you mentioned had

00:51:39.560 been murdered in

00:51:40.760 um sacramento

00:51:41.840 california in

00:51:43.360 april of 1995

00:51:44.720 and just several

00:51:46.080 days after the

00:51:47.380 oklahoma city

00:51:48.040 bombing

00:51:48.420 so a number of

00:51:50.080 people were

00:51:50.660 concerned that

00:51:51.500 maybe the bombing

00:51:52.320 in oklahoma city

00:51:53.120 is connected to

00:51:53.760 the unabomber

00:51:54.240 well kathy was

00:51:55.520 very significant

00:51:56.260 there as well

00:51:56.940 because she

00:51:57.780 provided the opinion

00:51:59.180 that look

00:52:00.040 our guy is a

00:52:01.460 very meticulous

00:52:02.420 uh killer of

00:52:04.300 of individual

00:52:05.300 people i mean

00:52:06.120 he's he's sending

00:52:07.160 singular bombs to

00:52:08.700 people and he's

00:52:09.760 very careful in

00:52:10.580 doing it the

00:52:11.720 person who wreaked

00:52:13.780 havoc in oklahoma

00:52:14.900 is a mass murder

00:52:16.180 they're two separate

00:52:17.560 kind of people

00:52:18.320 and uh i worked

00:52:19.920 with kathy for a

00:52:21.080 long time so uh

00:52:22.760 whenever she had

00:52:23.640 an opinion like

00:52:24.300 that to me it

00:52:25.140 was uh as

00:52:26.020 close to gospel

00:52:26.980 as you were going

00:52:27.580 to get well the

00:52:28.540 fbi agreed with

00:52:29.540 that

00:52:29.840 so we were

00:52:30.960 able to maneuver

00:52:31.580 through that

00:52:32.080 because you can

00:52:32.540 get distracted

00:52:33.200 very easily in

00:52:33.940 something like

00:52:34.380 this so now the

00:52:35.260 bureau has two

00:52:35.860 major uh things

00:52:37.300 going on because

00:52:38.100 within days of the

00:52:39.460 oklahoma city

00:52:40.040 bombing uh we

00:52:41.880 have the death

00:52:43.080 of uh gilbert

00:52:44.120 murray at the

00:52:44.660 hands of the

00:52:45.100 unabomber another

00:52:46.200 terrible crime

00:52:46.940 scene tom manol

00:52:48.360 came out he

00:52:49.140 actually went to

00:52:50.000 oklahoma city to

00:52:51.480 gather evidence and

00:52:52.460 get things back to

00:52:53.240 the lab then he

00:52:54.440 came to san

00:52:55.120 francisco went up

00:52:56.060 to sacramento and

00:52:57.300 helped us with

00:52:57.920 that as well and

00:52:59.100 so all of this

00:52:59.880 is going on

00:53:00.700 and uh in the

00:53:02.080 wake of this the

00:53:03.220 unabomber starts

00:53:04.140 firing off more

00:53:05.860 letters and um

00:53:07.500 they went to the

00:53:09.060 new york times

00:53:09.840 eventually they

00:53:10.480 would go to bob

00:53:11.220 guccione at

00:53:11.980 penthouse magazine

00:53:12.940 they would go to

00:53:14.280 a couple of

00:53:15.020 nobel prize winning

00:53:15.980 scientists to a

00:53:17.400 university of

00:53:17.980 california professor

00:53:18.800 named tom tyler

00:53:19.860 and uh they all

00:53:21.280 have a little

00:53:21.640 different theme but

00:53:22.420 by and large the

00:53:24.100 unabomber wanted

00:53:24.880 the world to

00:53:25.620 know that uh the

00:53:27.900 terrorist group fc

00:53:28.900 has a manifesto and

00:53:30.680 we want it published

00:53:31.740 and uh if it's

00:53:33.620 published we will

00:53:35.460 desist from committing

00:53:37.400 acts of terror but we

00:53:39.800 will reserve the right

00:53:41.040 to commit espionage and

00:53:42.700 that that always was

00:53:44.440 interesting megan but i

00:53:45.440 have to tell you here

00:53:46.400 very quickly that a

00:53:48.200 number of years ago you

00:53:49.080 did a a interview of

00:53:50.780 william ayers a uh

00:53:52.200 radical weather

00:53:53.180 underground terrorist

00:53:54.220 and he said

00:53:55.540 something very

00:53:56.440 similar he reminded

00:53:57.760 you that look we

00:53:59.480 only went after

00:54:00.500 people and or after

00:54:01.880 property we didn't

00:54:02.960 go after people well

00:54:04.540 that is exactly what

00:54:05.840 the unabomber the

00:54:06.760 lone serial terrorist

00:54:08.060 was telling us years

00:54:09.180 later and i found the

00:54:10.880 mindset interesting

00:54:11.860 and and of course the

00:54:13.880 the question that is

00:54:15.140 begging there is that

00:54:16.060 look you can't

00:54:17.260 guarantee that you're

00:54:18.220 only going to damage

00:54:18.920 property you're going

00:54:19.740 to kill people and so

00:54:21.360 you must not care and

00:54:22.940 so that was where we

00:54:24.040 were at with the

00:54:24.680 unabomber and again

00:54:25.560 kathy weighed in and

00:54:27.180 she said something very

00:54:28.260 very interesting that

00:54:29.300 would factor into our

00:54:30.260 deliberations eventually

00:54:31.340 on what to recommend

00:54:32.780 about publication and

00:54:34.420 that is that the

00:54:35.740 unabomber will probably

00:54:37.280 not be able to stop

00:54:39.600 himself from sending

00:54:40.640 other bombs even if he

00:54:42.400 says he wanted to

00:54:43.480 this is something that

00:54:45.020 he does this is who he

00:54:46.740 is so getting a promise

00:54:48.680 or a pledge from him is

00:54:49.640 almost as useless as

00:54:50.940 as it can be so this

00:54:53.800 is the situation we

00:54:54.860 found ourselves in as

00:54:56.460 we were trying to

00:54:57.140 determine what to do

00:54:58.340 and as we then

00:54:59.840 received you know the

00:55:02.940 call from the bureau

00:55:03.840 what is going to be your

00:55:06.140 recommendation what are

00:55:07.460 you going to ask about

00:55:08.760 his the demand from

00:55:10.020 fc from the terror

00:55:10.980 group fc to actually

00:55:12.480 publish this manifesto

00:55:13.860 that's i mean so much

00:55:15.840 responsibility if you if

00:55:17.700 you don't publish it and

00:55:19.380 he bombs again there'll

00:55:21.080 be second guessing if

00:55:22.640 you do publish it and

00:55:23.900 he bombs again there'll

00:55:25.220 be second guessing and

00:55:26.160 it's like you've got

00:55:26.660 people's lives in your

00:55:27.500 hands here before i

00:55:28.960 forget terry just

00:55:29.540 quickly what what did

00:55:30.680 fc wind up standing

00:55:31.940 for

00:55:32.260 we're never really going

00:55:35.080 to be sure we uh we

00:55:36.860 never of course were

00:55:37.980 able to talk to the

00:55:39.100 theodore kaczynski about

00:55:40.200 it and uh there are

00:55:42.280 some uh suggestions that

00:55:44.000 it stood for freedom

00:55:44.760 club something like

00:55:46.260 that but uh nothing

00:55:47.940 certainly that helped

00:55:49.000 us on the trail of

00:55:50.440 trying to identify who

00:55:51.480 the terror group fc was

00:55:53.080 okay so you ultimately

00:55:54.820 decide um publish it

00:55:57.460 tell them to do it and

00:55:59.020 the the you really

00:56:00.640 thought in the end there

00:56:02.240 will be somebody out

00:56:03.340 there in reading a 35

00:56:04.960 000 word manifesto who

00:56:07.540 will recognize phrases

00:56:09.100 words ideas philosophies

00:56:11.800 that this guy holds so

00:56:13.420 strongly there's no way

00:56:14.480 he hasn't expressed them

00:56:15.480 to others and you did

00:56:18.100 it the the washington

00:56:19.280 post right printed the

00:56:21.600 manifesto you had fbi

00:56:23.360 agents staked out at the

00:56:25.140 various locations in the

00:56:26.440 relevant location where

00:56:27.260 you thought the unabomber

00:56:28.200 could possibly be

00:56:29.140 california watching no no

00:56:31.620 luck um but there was

00:56:34.060 there was luck in one

00:56:36.260 particular person

00:56:37.180 who read that manifesto

00:56:38.820 can we jump to that part

00:56:39.640 of the story sure we

00:56:41.140 can uh so between the

00:56:43.080 time of the publication

00:56:44.200 of the manifesto in on

00:56:46.080 september 20th or 19th uh

00:56:48.200 1995 and the middle of

00:56:50.160 february we received

00:56:51.880 probably close to 55 000

00:56:54.400 phone calls and tips uh with

00:56:56.680 people turning in you know

00:56:57.860 wives turning in their

00:56:58.820 husbands for the rewards

00:57:00.180 uh girlfriends turning in

00:57:03.340 boyfriends and all that

00:57:04.520 thing but by this time we

00:57:06.660 really knew a lot about the

00:57:08.380 unabomber uh in fact the

00:57:09.940 behavioral science unit said

00:57:11.180 look you basically solved the

00:57:13.040 case you just don't know the

00:57:14.240 guy's name and uh we're all

00:57:16.780 looking at each other like well

00:57:17.940 that would be hopeful wouldn't

00:57:18.940 it so uh when we got the

00:57:21.040 manifesto and we recommended

00:57:22.780 eventually publication it was

00:57:25.020 based on the idea that uh i we

00:57:27.800 we had a lot of meetings as i

00:57:29.280 mentioned to you and i mentioned

00:57:30.760 in one of the meetings that i i had a

00:57:32.400 high school teacher his name was

00:57:33.640 larry lawson and he taught

00:57:35.260 creative writing and uh

00:57:37.240 ironically i stayed away from

00:57:38.520 math and tried to stay into

00:57:39.760 stuff like creative writing and

00:57:41.180 in high school and uh and he

00:57:43.360 told us no two people write

00:57:45.160 alike and uh so we talked about

00:57:48.080 that and so we said look we know

00:57:50.160 so much about unabom we need to

00:57:52.600 recommend uh now that there's one

00:57:54.960 piece we're lacking this

00:57:56.440 manifesto could now be be the

00:57:58.260 thing that gives us that piece and

00:57:59.860 so we need to recommend

00:58:01.280 publication and so um off we

00:58:03.960 went uh jim freeman and uh

00:58:06.920 kathy pocket and myself to louis

00:58:10.280 free we had a meeting with all the

00:58:11.900 bureau brass there briefed the case

00:58:14.740 and said we recommend publication of

00:58:17.840 the unabom manifesto in the

00:58:18.940 washington post we went across the

00:58:20.700 street to the ag did the same

00:58:22.900 thing they approved it and it was

00:58:25.560 published on the 19th and by

00:58:27.360 february uh 14th we got the call we

00:58:30.880 needed and uh it was essentially

00:58:33.220 like all things unabom it came it

00:58:35.820 didn't come easy it was a uh on the

00:58:38.540 overhead speaker system there was a

00:58:40.600 paging uh anybody from the unabom

00:58:42.780 task force can you pick up on such

00:58:44.500 and such a line well joel moss who

00:58:46.840 was the supervisor of the suspect

00:58:48.360 squad listened to this uh paging for

00:58:51.100 about three tries and finally he puts

00:58:54.040 down what he's doing he picks it up

00:58:55.860 because he obviously hoped somebody

00:58:57.840 else would answer it he's up to his

00:58:59.300 eyeballs and alligators with uh

00:59:00.960 thousands of unabom suspects and he

00:59:03.800 gets on the phone with another agent

00:59:05.280 molly flynn in washington metropolitan

00:59:07.300 field office she has received a 23

00:59:10.480 page essay from uh an individual an

00:59:13.880 attorney named anthony besagli in

00:59:16.060 washington anthony besagli had dealt

00:59:18.180 with the fbi before he'd had a client

00:59:20.380 approach him who gave him this and they

00:59:22.440 were worried that someone close to

00:59:24.580 them could be the unabomber but they

00:59:26.520 wanted to find out a little bit before

00:59:28.680 they volunteered who they were so um

00:59:31.560 molly flynn sent the essay to the bureau

00:59:34.920 uh in the bureau lab looked at it and

00:59:37.920 they came back and said this isn't typed

00:59:41.060 on the unabomber's typewriter and that

00:59:43.360 was it well she didn't stop there she

00:59:46.260 thought wait a minute you know this is

00:59:47.900 what we're all about so uh she called the

00:59:51.660 san francisco utf she ends up getting a

00:59:53.820 hold of joel moss she starts explaining

00:59:56.400 this joel listens for a while he said

00:59:58.220 get it to me right away he immediately

01:00:00.300 understood the significance or potential

01:00:02.320 significance of what of some of the

01:00:04.460 passages she read so he came to my

01:00:07.220 office after he had a fax copy of this

01:00:08.960 and after he and kathy had talked they

01:00:10.960 said let's go to lunch i said i can't i

01:00:12.800 i'm committed to going to lunch with jim

01:00:14.440 and joel literally your boss jim freeman

01:00:16.760 three of us had worked together a lot he

01:00:18.820 grabs me by the arm we go to lunch and i

01:00:21.420 cancel out on jim well we end up sitting

01:00:23.780 there when jim freeman comes into the same

01:00:25.480 place for eating and so you stood me up

01:00:28.360 for your friends here huh well we had the

01:00:31.520 the the talk about the 23 page essay

01:00:34.300 started reading it that night and uh our

01:00:38.040 world had changed forever you you could not

01:00:40.680 read the 23 page essay believe in the

01:00:43.500 strategy we were following and not believe

01:00:46.180 that this was the golden ticket

01:00:48.240 there were phrases that he used in both

01:00:53.100 what turned out to be letters to his

01:00:56.760 brother and in the manifesto that were

01:00:59.960 just too identifiable and unique to him

01:01:03.820 ted kaczynski it was chilling i took it

01:01:07.640 home that night to hold my copy and my

01:01:09.700 wife was watching television and i was

01:01:12.160 laying on the couch in the family room

01:01:13.620 and uh i just jumped out of the couch and

01:01:16.940 headed into the den to get my copy of the

01:01:19.120 manifesto because in the 23 page essay

01:01:22.020 there was a phrase the sphere of human

01:01:24.720 freedom well that exact phrase was in the

01:01:27.380 you know about manifesto and i went and i

01:01:29.520 started looking at other things at that

01:01:31.020 point in time i called joel i called

01:01:32.680 kathy and uh i went back in and i i just

01:01:35.820 told my wife i'm gonna i'm gonna go on in

01:01:37.540 and work some and uh and i just said i

01:01:40.460 think we might have found the unabomber and

01:01:42.220 that's all i said to her and and the next

01:01:44.460 morning of course our entire discussion now

01:01:47.600 turns to the 23 page essay and the

01:01:50.580 manifesto as it turned out david kaczynski

01:01:54.520 ted's brother was married to a woman named

01:01:58.840 linda and she would later describe the

01:02:02.880 genesis of her suspicion as between the two

01:02:04.820 of them she apparently was the first to

01:02:06.480 suspect that it was ted david's brother

01:02:08.600 uh you write in your book she was in paris

01:02:10.720 in august 1995 when she read an article

01:02:12.820 about the unabomber in an international

01:02:14.460 edition of a newspaper her anxiety grew as

01:02:17.820 the unabomber was described as a loner

01:02:19.840 probably from chicago check check who had

01:02:23.760 likely lived in utah and northern california

01:02:26.160 check check linda had never met ted but

01:02:29.420 this was consistent with her knowledge of

01:02:31.020 him uh and it goes on from there and then

01:02:33.780 it had excerpts of the manifesto which

01:02:36.360 seemed a lot like ted's letters to her

01:02:38.600 husband that you go on to say that one of

01:02:41.900 the things she realized was that she and

01:02:45.960 david had been asked by ted kaczynski david's

01:02:49.940 brother for money a couple of times and he'd

01:02:53.080 been living like a hermit in the middle of

01:02:54.420 montana in some cabin so they were a little

01:02:56.300 puzzled by why he would need money anyway but

01:02:58.260 they were they deduced that he used their

01:03:01.700 money to make bombs they were mortified

01:03:04.780 exactly and especially the last two bombings

01:03:08.280 in november of 94 he'd asked for a thousand

01:03:10.960 dollars and in december of 94 he asked for

01:03:14.020 two thousand dollars and so of course we had

01:03:16.600 the december 94 event involving mr moser

01:03:19.640 and then the follow-up mr murray in 95 so

01:03:22.640 it was just uh frightening to to think that

01:03:27.080 they they were absolutely right and we felt

01:03:29.560 really badly that uh that could be the case

01:03:32.040 but in fact that's what it turned out to be he

01:03:34.440 was getting money from them to finance those

01:03:36.420 last two bombings

01:03:37.380 now another phrase in the um in the writings

01:03:41.260 that matched uh that there was a comparison

01:03:44.160 between he would write you can't uh eat your cake

01:03:48.320 and have it too which is a reversal of the saying

01:03:51.560 the saying is you can't have your cake and eat it

01:03:53.100 too and he reversed it and and what like where did

01:03:56.940 you see that how did that come together

01:03:58.180 yes eventually we would see that in in several

01:04:00.840 places but that showed up in the um the manifest

01:04:04.900 the um the 23 page essay and it showed up when we

01:04:08.860 went to visit wanda and uh his mom and she had uh

01:04:13.320 information and all kinds of things in a steamer trunk

01:04:16.880 that theodore owned and he had left it with her many

01:04:19.860 years earlier and said i don't want it anymore do

01:04:22.300 whatever you want well she kept it all these years

01:04:24.480 so it was essentially abandoned property and uh we went

01:04:27.880 into the steamer trunk and found written on a a draft

01:04:31.220 of uh of the essay you can't eat your cake and have it too

01:04:35.180 and so all of these things start coming together

01:04:37.740 and uh they're just too many of these um coincidences i guess you

01:04:43.320 could call them but it was all about words it was all about

01:04:47.160 language and and so earlier when we uh when you and i spoke and we talked

01:04:51.900 about those two early letters the ralph kloppenberg letter and the

01:04:56.040 history of science and then the enoch fisher letter that had prompted us to do a

01:05:00.960 project and we had a number of investigative projects that we worked on

01:05:04.320 and one of those projects had to do with uh interviewing professors at

01:05:08.440 universities so we had become in fact joel had become our expert on the

01:05:12.500 history of science and we found that there were um 44 american universities

01:05:17.800 and colleges across the country that enrolled 400

01:05:21.360 people in the uh the discipline history of

01:05:24.680 science none of us had ever heard of it and we just wanted to mark this

01:05:28.320 territory not to forget it so he actually went joel actually went to a

01:05:32.220 history of science convention one year in new orleans

01:05:34.500 and i guess that was a big splash they loved having the fbi there it was very

01:05:38.680 exciting but he was there to learn about what history of science means so

01:05:44.080 all of this is fresh on our mind when theodore kaczynski shows up

01:05:47.640 as a suspect and lo and behold when we go to start doing all the basics that we

01:05:53.140 always did with any suspect and one of them was to get all their

01:05:56.300 school transcripts lo and behold there's a course that

01:05:59.800 theodore took early on in harvard or university of michigan

01:06:03.720 called history of science the introduction to history of science

01:06:06.640 science so he had a creative side and he would pull on that when uh he was

01:06:10.820 putting together these bombs or putting together ideas

01:06:13.100 so this is how all of these things uh whether they were phrases or uh those

01:06:19.280 kinds of things from the investigation or passages from the manifesto

01:06:23.600 or passages from the um 23 page essay that matched the manifesto

01:06:28.320 all of this started falling together and these pieces became the the foundation the

01:06:34.980 building block of this search warrant the thing is

01:06:38.140 this was not dna this was not fingerprints this was not eyewitness stuff

01:06:43.540 this was words and so doj said knock yourself out but this

01:06:49.560 this is a probable cause and of course our response was wait a minute

01:06:53.560 this is as good as any of the things you just mentioned almost because

01:06:58.400 first of all this is all we have but knowing all of this and seeing every day

01:07:04.320 more stuff was coming together i mean there was no question

01:07:07.020 more and more of these pieces were coming together

01:07:09.320 we always would do a timeline and one of the things david was able to do

01:07:14.420 eventually is he gave us uh well over a hundred envelopes

01:07:18.280 with postmarks on them they represented the envelopes that the letters between

01:07:22.940 he and ted that he had received from ted

01:07:25.020 had had received over 30 years he kept all of that

01:07:28.860 and we had thus a timeline during the entirety of the unabomb series of events

01:07:34.120 and we only ended up finding one contradiction in that entire uh 16 years

01:07:40.680 using all these postmarks and all the other things we used

01:07:43.920 so it was all falling together and we kept going back and saying no

01:07:48.680 we're close to having what we need to get into that cabin

01:07:52.640 and we need to do it and um doj uh was not sold

01:07:58.300 and eventually it took the fbi director louis free

01:08:02.760 and the attorney general to simply bypass all the advisors and committees set up

01:08:08.440 to uh give us advice about this it took the two of them

01:08:11.920 to say uh look we trust the utf we trust the people on it

01:08:16.720 we've been following this case we know this case like the back of our hand i mean

01:08:20.300 janet reno would carry around her uh copy of fact fiction and theory

01:08:24.420 and you had to be careful if you were talking to her because she'd listen

01:08:27.480 and then you go wait a minute isn't this part of theory for her

01:08:30.840 and so uh she was that into this case and of course

01:08:34.320 director free was was really into it from day one but

01:08:37.400 so that was the kind of relationship we now i mean we're almost

01:08:40.760 it may be that they're high level government officials

01:08:43.880 but everybody as we said at the beginning everybody was at the right

01:08:48.140 for us was the right person in the right spot

01:08:52.020 at the right time and and you know the egos had been

01:08:55.580 tossed to the floor uh the emotion you could you could show your emotion

01:09:00.100 uh i mean it was it was amazing i mean i look back on it now and as i'm talking

01:09:05.160 to you i almost have chills because

01:09:06.460 it wasn't like people might think uh the attorney general the director of the fbi

01:09:11.820 the the sac of san francisco the agents we were all equal in this boat and uh if

01:09:18.280 we didn't help each other we were all going to drown in it

01:09:21.400 and uh i think that's at some point that became

01:09:25.280 the reason that we were successful in bringing all this together

01:09:28.780 hence the the piece of the title about breaking the rules

01:09:33.340 the um they got their search warrant this group uh not the arrest warrant they got

01:09:38.620 the search warrant which wasn't all they wanted but it was good enough as it would

01:09:42.800 turn out and wound up uh in the snowy mountains of montana

01:09:47.480 um tons of agents waiting for ted kaczynski there was a whole

01:09:52.620 ruse as you can imagine had to be executed very carefully so that no one got hurt

01:09:57.140 understanding this is a bomb maker inside of this cabin

01:09:59.360 suspected but for very good reason uh and eventually

01:10:03.120 they would have to affect that arrest under circumstances they never foresaw

01:10:08.660 we pick it up there right after this

01:10:10.740 so now you go out to the mountains of montana the middle of nowhere

01:10:18.300 and you've got to start putting the the pieces in place for you know what you

01:10:23.160 hope will be an eventual arrest and the what i the question i had in

01:10:26.420 reading your book were you talking about you know now you got to start

01:10:28.580 interviewing the locals you get some important locals on your side

01:10:31.780 you you start interviewing bus drivers because ted kaczynski only has a bicycle

01:10:35.660 so how is he getting from the middle of nowhere down to sacramento

01:10:39.200 into utah wherever he's going there's got to be a way so you got to find bus

01:10:42.680 drivers you got to figure out routes taken you got to see

01:10:44.640 where did he stay what are the do we have any receipts let's get the bank

01:10:47.700 accounts let's build a case a case that max would love

01:10:51.000 to show um actual proof that this guy has been in the places we suspect he's been

01:10:56.020 during the relevant time frames and what i kept thinking reading how you guys had to do

01:11:00.120 this was a just arrest the damn guy you know it's

01:11:02.780 him right like you can't do it that way and b weren't you worried someone was

01:11:08.520 going to leak either you know outside you know to to

01:11:13.000 random people who might spread it but or b to to ted kaczynski like how could you

01:11:17.460 assure yourself that people weren't friends with him or maybe they just

01:11:21.580 blabbed to somebody some random person like the fbi contacted me they asked me

01:11:24.640 all these fun questions they think if there's some guy in the woods and then word

01:11:27.500 would get out you know how do you control that me and everything you said

01:11:30.460 was so right on uh we were we were worried about so many things that that

01:11:35.340 was the most stressful time of this entire investigation there could be leaks

01:11:39.900 he could have something in the cabin that eventually is going to hurt somebody

01:11:43.680 uh he could get on a bus and place another bomb or mail another bomb all these

01:11:49.080 things are going on our on in our minds and so we had to try to deal with each of

01:11:53.080 these contingencies so uh what we did is that uh around i don't know it was

01:12:00.120 probably around the third week of february uh called max max was on leave at

01:12:04.980 the time i said we're sending you to uh montana i know you don't think much of

01:12:10.200 uh theodore kaczynski as the unabomber but you're the guy that has to be in

01:12:14.900 montana all the time to take care of and manage the small team we're going to send

01:12:19.540 with you and uh we need you to go to those hotels motels try to try to somehow

01:12:25.700 place this guy out of that cabin start interviewing people um and of course all

01:12:31.780 this has to be done discreetly and uh we can't even mention the word unabomb

01:12:35.920 so uh max of course being max he he he came right back he goes into montana buys all

01:12:42.900 his winter clothes and uh and sets about doing what he has to do

01:12:47.140 and he and i talked several times every day uh and uh he directed a team of

01:12:53.380 about three people which would start to grow almost every day after we first got

01:12:57.860 started but in that time a lot of things happened and we needed all these things

01:13:03.480 for our search warrant max was able to go pay a visit to butch gearing it was on

01:13:09.040 the butch gearing lumber mill property that theodore kaczynski and his brother

01:13:12.580 david has had actually purchased the house or the the land for the the cabin

01:13:17.740 that kaczynski built in 1971 so max went and had a talk with

01:13:23.020 gearing to learn about the unabomber or you know you learn about kaczynski

01:13:26.800 and uh gearing was uh where as we said wearing the team jersey after that he he was

01:13:32.320 willing and ready to help and provide whatever kind of information or help to

01:13:36.280 us we needed so that was kind of uh uh secured so then uh max was able to

01:13:42.740 develop jerry burns jerry burns became just vitally

01:13:46.080 important everybody's heard of the u.s forest service

01:13:49.240 very few people know that the u.s forest service has their own special agents and

01:13:53.580 and law enforcement and uh i've worked with so many of these people over the

01:13:57.220 years and they're really really good well jerry burns was uh

01:14:00.900 uh absolutely amazing and so we befriended him and and kind of put the

01:14:05.880 team jersey on him his supervisor agreed that he didn't need to know what jerry

01:14:09.920 was doing on behalf of the fbi but jerry was briefed on everything he was

01:14:14.200 brought into the whole unabombed picture of this

01:14:16.240 and uh so he was able to be a goal might of information about kaczynski because he

01:14:20.680 was always running into him out into kaczynski out in the forest

01:14:23.780 that was important the ssra the senior supervisory resident agent

01:14:29.320 in helena montana was an individual named tom mcdaniel

01:14:33.120 he was amazing and and was there every step of the way with us

01:14:37.320 and then finally bernie hubley bernie was the assistant

01:14:41.000 u.s attorney in the district there and lo and behold

01:14:45.040 our luck again bernie hubley was a former fbi agent

01:14:48.780 so he was brought into this and almost fell over on a bar stool one day when

01:14:53.540 max briefed him and said here's why we're here

01:14:55.760 and uh we're here because in your territory it's so crazy

01:14:59.120 it's crazy to think about like these guys being like wait what the unabomber

01:15:03.140 like the most notorious criminal in the country right now at large

01:15:06.180 so okay eventually i gotta skip ahead because i there's so much more important

01:15:10.440 things to get to so you do get your search warrant it

01:15:13.280 wasn't easy but but just long story short on that so much of the that

01:15:17.220 painstaking fbi work went into it and it wasn't a guarantee that you were

01:15:21.800 going to get it but all those years and hours of of collective effort

01:15:25.620 paid off you got the warrant you go to execute the search warrant

01:15:29.700 jerry who you mentioned the local who ted knew and he was important he was

01:15:34.400 the front man and then there are two other guys who went

01:15:37.080 to knock on the door with a ruse about we need to check your property line and it

01:15:40.680 was something jerry ted kaczynski had to see jerry's face otherwise

01:15:43.320 he wouldn't have opened that door he would have been suspicious

01:15:45.800 so he was critical and lo and behold he was home ted kaczynski and you you got

01:15:51.880 him you grabbed him um he said he was going to go back in he would show you the

01:15:54.860 property lines he's going to go back in and grab his coat and no he was not

01:15:57.600 going to grab the coat the fbi grabbed him pulled out a six hour that was the

01:16:01.520 end of his attempt to go back in the house and he was not placed under arrest

01:16:06.520 but taken to another cabin where questioning began and i have to ask you you

01:16:13.260 know after all this effort right he's in this cabin you've got him you and your

01:16:19.120 team and like what are you thinking at this

01:16:22.160 point you know because the pictures do show this disheveled crazy

01:16:25.780 looking mountain man who looks just like he hasn't seen a brush or a shower in 20

01:16:31.140 years like what are you thinking well max couldn't wait to take a bath i mean he

01:16:37.700 he already felt really dirty he wanted to get away from here take a shower as soon as

01:16:41.520 he could but he would end up being with kaczynski just about the rest of the day

01:16:45.100 and end of the night at about one o'clock uh i was thinking more of what we had to

01:16:49.940 do next i i mean it was almost like uh okay that part of this is over and now we

01:16:57.540 can breathe a little easier but not really because we've got a lot of work to

01:17:01.540 do so now we start bringing in everybody else all these evidence response teams

01:17:05.480 and uh and then we call the bureau but now the bureau is saying well you you don't

01:17:10.960 have anything but a search warrant what are you doing well we're taking him out

01:17:14.880 and putting him into another cabin to be on ice here for a while while we decide

01:17:19.020 what to do and of course our plan was to take him up the mountain and over to

01:17:22.660 helena and um and of course doj said you can't do that you can't arrest this man

01:17:28.700 well we're not gonna let him go back in the cabin and so by late that night after

01:17:34.520 hours of debating that occurred back east we'd already taken theodore kaczynski into

01:17:40.240 helena he was in the car with max and tom and

01:17:43.140 paul wilhelmis a postal inspector uh they took him into helena to get him

01:17:47.160 booked at the jail eventually uh and jim and i were following him up the

01:17:51.520 mountain and into helena and we were uh eventually on the phone with the

01:17:56.020 director and and he's getting kind of a a lot of information that i'll i'll call

01:18:01.120 it what it was it was fiction from doj people that that had no no they had no

01:18:06.480 clue of what they were talking about and so people were a little concerned are you

01:18:10.400 making an arrest that you can't make but by about midnight uh howard shapiro the

01:18:16.920 fbi chief legal counsel got on the phone with me i said just let me go through

01:18:21.160 everything that's going on in the other room and lo and behold he said i don't need

01:18:25.760 to hear anything else i'll brief the director do what you're doing and get

01:18:29.140 this person locked up and we'll we'll deal with the rest of this tomorrow and

01:18:32.480 that's exactly what happened you uh eventually after sort of de-rigging

01:18:38.160 the house and making sure it was safe to enter and there were all sorts of

01:18:41.380 things you gotta you gotta read terry's book to hear like the painstaking

01:18:44.780 efforts to make sure that it was safe but you you get into his cabin and this to

01:18:50.500 me is where it all comes together 20 years of clue gathering would match up

01:18:59.680 with what you found in that cabin forget enough to make an arrest now we're

01:19:05.040 talking we need enough to put this man away for the rest of his life and it was

01:19:10.680 all there you know i think about let me just give you one i think about um terry the the um

01:19:18.120 right the eyewitness is that tammy tammy sorry tammy the eyewitness who had given

01:19:22.900 us the aviator sunglasses and all that back at the one bombing years ago now nobody ever

01:19:27.080 made an eyewitness nobody ever matched that picture up with ted kaczynski and said i know

01:19:31.700 that guy so okay did she really make a difference a hundred percent because tell us about some

01:19:37.760 of the things she described that you found in ted kaczynski's cabin well of course the infamous

01:19:43.980 portrait of the uh aviator sunglasses and the guy wearing the gray hooded sweatshirt and lo and

01:19:49.760 behold there in the cabin were aviator sunglasses and gray hooded sweatshirt hanging up on a on a hook

01:19:56.260 over in the corner to the left as you were facing from the outside uh we found a live bomb on the second

01:20:02.640 day of the search wrapped and ready to mail ironically it had a return address of the seattle fbi office

01:20:09.960 and so he was getting ready to taunt us again uh we we we saw across the cabin remember the cabin

01:20:17.240 nine by twelve in size and then it had a loft so uh across from where we were looking through this

01:20:23.680 the only door of the cabin uh were all kinds of containers cartons and bottles some were labeled

01:20:29.700 they were labeled with explosive uh or ingredients that you could use to make explosives and in fact

01:20:35.380 the unabombers early bombs had some of these combinations uh like potassium chlorate and sodium

01:20:41.360 chlorate and things like that uh we found a oatmeal container quaker oatmeal container with uh pre-made

01:20:48.120 switches that he had already made ahead of time so he could literally reach onto the shelf and pull off

01:20:53.480 a switch that he might use in a bomb he wants to construct we found thousands of pages of typed or

01:21:00.580 handwritten notes and we found a uh autobiography of of him he had he had literally uh laid out his

01:21:10.180 entire life uh in all of these notes and we also found admissions and or confessions to all 16 unabomb

01:21:20.020 devices now what in fact we did find with about 500 pages of those uh admissions is that he had taught

01:21:28.080 himself spanish and he wrote those admissions and confessions in spanish so now we had to get on

01:21:34.300 the phone and start assembling every fbi spanish speaker we had so that we could get those translated

01:21:41.500 and stop any bombs that might now still be in the maelstrom so we we have all these things still

01:21:48.140 going on because of this guy's nature and personality one question i wanted to ask you having read the book

01:21:55.220 was you one of the queries one of the one of the oddities was the fbi uh agents analyzing the case

01:22:03.540 before you knew who it was believed that um the forensic experts they said the unabomber is melting scrap

01:22:11.540 aluminum for his more recent bombs he would need an electric powered kiln to do that and he ted kaczynski

01:22:20.100 only had like a wood burning stove in there he had no electricity and so did we ever solve the mystery

01:22:27.140 of how he melted scrap aluminum with just a wood burning stove which the forensic experts said he

01:22:33.400 could not do well they may have said he could not do it but we've all all learned about experts and uh

01:22:40.820 the experts were simply wrong and he had the potbelly stove and he had a big fire pit dug in front of the

01:22:46.280 cabin and uh he melted his own aluminum the hard way and that's how he was meticulously making these

01:22:53.620 bombs and i know we knew this from the manifesto but we haven't really gotten into it in this

01:22:58.380 interview but from the manifesto and the materials he found in his cabin and the interviews with his

01:23:03.000 brother david and so on because ted was not talking he clammed right up what what do we know about

01:23:09.720 why about the reason for his terror campaign over 20 years yes he actually goes into that and he says

01:23:18.820 people are going to uh give a number of motives to what i'm doing uh but i'm doing this because i'm

01:23:27.400 getting personal revenge i'm doing this because i'm angry uh there was really no rationality to

01:23:34.540 uh all of these things that look so organized like like he might have had an anti-technology beef of

01:23:40.840 course he kind of did but it was all when you get down to it when you think of airlines he was mad

01:23:46.840 because the uh the planes flying over the wilderness area where he lived made too much noise so then he'd

01:23:53.340 write i'm i'm embarking on a plan to get even and this is kind of how he was thinking and uh as kathy

01:24:00.460 had said early on uh this is about anger it's about what a person like this a serial killer

01:24:08.160 a serial criminal uh has welled up inside them they are angry and uh certainly theodore kaczynski

01:24:15.840 was angry and so he wrote about his anger he wrote about personal revenge as a motive and uh he gave

01:24:22.660 other motives of course but this is what it all came down to for him anger and revenge at what he

01:24:29.000 thought were slights against him all right we'll get into you know more about his past in one second

01:24:35.040 but before we get to that he there's a reason why he was not um facing the death penalty by the time

01:24:43.300 you got your hands on him and he would have to face justice can you explain just with the criminal

01:24:47.620 trial what happened because you didn't have to try him and there was a reason why death was not on the

01:24:52.560 table in the lead up to this uh david had requested that we have some sort of deal where he will help

01:25:00.580 us but there will be no death penalty well of course we had to say no to that we couldn't talk like that

01:25:04.900 uh with anybody before any kind of trial so ultimately there was death penalty attached to

01:25:10.680 the indictments that uh or the trial process in both sacramento and had we gone there new jersey

01:25:16.560 uh on the main cases uh that we were we were indicting him on uh but at some point in time uh

01:25:24.220 right before the trial jury was to come in uh and and we were going to start the trial he just kind of

01:25:32.100 threw it in you know he didn't want to plead guilty at all to anything they tried to um have a

01:25:37.880 conditional plea where we would uh you know kind of take his plea but he could appeal things all his life

01:25:45.460 he said no and finally they said well look if you um if you take the death penalty off the table

01:25:51.840 you know we'll plead guilty unconditionally to all of these crimes and that's exactly what happened

01:25:57.040 and that happened literally i mean the beginning of that happened literally minutes before the judge

01:26:03.300 had kind of read his final words and and told the courtroom okay i'm going to bring in the jury

01:26:08.640 and all of a sudden you know kaczynski basically threw something or made some noise they were done

01:26:15.440 the attorneys got up the whole thing was over that day and uh within an hour we were told he's he

01:26:21.800 wants to plead guilty i mean so terrified about the thought of having his own life taken from him

01:26:27.020 and of course not a shred of concern or care for the lives he took and and the people he maimed and

01:26:34.580 you know i think about those poor children and that wife um of poor um thomas mosser who had to run

01:26:42.080 into that kitchen after they heard a bomb go off and see the remains of their loved ones i mean like

01:26:46.180 and ted kaczynski's worried of course to the end about himself and what he might have to go through

01:26:52.100 um has he ever spoken terry has he ever given an interview or you know done anything other than

01:26:59.640 the manifesto to help people understand no not really he's he's turned down most interviews i think

01:27:06.300 he eventually might have spoken with someone briefly i uh but i'm not sure i i remember vaguely

01:27:12.220 at some point he might have but uh he certainly is not talking to us he um uh he has developed or he

01:27:19.800 had developed i think a relationship of some sort with timothy mcveigh before he was executed uh and

01:27:26.600 of course he's on uh he's at the supermax and i think right down the row from him is eric robert rudolph

01:27:34.040 another loner uh serial bomber from the olympic bombing of 1996 so uh he's really never talked

01:27:41.600 he's really never said much and uh i don't think he plans to say anything he's never talked at all

01:27:46.640 uh since then to his brother and of course he hadn't talked to his brother for years before that

01:27:51.560 right he would he cut off his brother and his mom and i think his dad was alive for some of that

01:27:58.040 um unclear why that the brother married a college professor when it was a question about whether he

01:28:04.060 was he was upset about that he didn't like universities as we covered earlier um and yet

01:28:10.200 the brother loved him david kaczynski loved his brother ted and really seemed to wrestle with that

01:28:16.340 phone call he made after reading the manifesto and you know again he tried to bargain for his brother's

01:28:22.080 life but knew he had to do the right thing i mean he's he's really kind of an unsung hero in the whole

01:28:26.680 thing because even though we have so many fbi agents working tirelessly around the clock for years to

01:28:32.320 catch the guy boy oh boy you know a lot of people would say i wouldn't i wouldn't do it wouldn't turn

01:28:37.020 my own brother in i'd do something else uh but he did the right thing and he and in large part you know

01:28:42.400 he he played a major role in in apprehending the brother okay the profile of ted kaczynski is where i want

01:28:48.420 to pick it up next because i read some crazy stuff about this guy and i would love to go through some

01:28:54.500 of it with you not it wasn't in your book but i want to understand ted kaczynski a bit better and

01:28:59.980 lessons learned now that now that you can look back on your investigation and know who it is

01:29:04.620 what would you have done differently okay we're gonna pick it up there with terry churchy

01:29:08.260 on the unabomber investigation next

01:29:10.220 so an important piece of the story is who was this guy like what turns you know some normal

01:29:20.280 american who by all accounts didn't have an extraordinarily odd childhood into a serial

01:29:26.080 killer that's what ted kaczynski is a serial killer so um let's just start with what do we

01:29:31.480 know about his you know one through 20 about that period of his life sure well his brother kind of sums

01:29:37.300 that up the best i think because he thought a lot about that and he would constantly remind us

01:29:42.160 we came from the same family we were raised in the same way by the same people i don't even

01:29:49.300 understand how he can attach certain meaning and value to some of the things he was taught in the

01:29:54.540 way he was raised that he talks about that's what he would say about ted i don't understand how we

01:29:59.400 could come from the same family because my recollections and memories of growing up

01:30:03.340 are nothing at all like his i have no idea how he got these notions

01:30:08.000 and therein i think lies the problem for us uh in future cases and in trying to identify or prevent

01:30:16.560 some of these types of things i think it's very difficult to figure out uh how to see these people

01:30:21.880 ahead of time how to how to uh figure out how one person is going to be fine and how another person

01:30:28.240 becomes a serial terrorist i i don't know if uh we're even close to that kind of uh assessment

01:30:35.300 right now i know we've tried to articulate things that were missed and uh yet they're only um on the

01:30:43.560 surface like uh someone acted a certain way in school or didn't get along with anybody or was

01:30:49.880 constantly angry uh kathy says that uh and she did a major study we one of the things we did to try to

01:30:56.160 answer your question is uh when i went back to the bureau at the end of my career uh we got the

01:31:01.320 money and we brought kathy back to do a study on loan serial bombers and she concluded that these are

01:31:08.960 people who are trying to make a mark in society they want to be known uh they fail at being known

01:31:15.020 they fail at group identity they cannot become part of a group they simply cannot socialize to where

01:31:20.680 they can become part of any kind of group so uh what they start to do is create their own group

01:31:27.080 thus the unabomber created theater kaczynski created the terror group fc and then they seek

01:31:32.740 this uh major type of event uh like a bomb in a terrible tragedy to get traction and be known and so

01:31:40.260 uh that's about as close as we can get but she based that on a number of serial killers and a number

01:31:46.580 of people because we don't have many serial bombers of course uh but there are certainly uh very similar

01:31:52.920 patterns going on there so we passed that study along uh to the uh to the bureau i mean that it was

01:32:01.480 bureau property we passed it along to use in the future and in fact it was used uh initially when

01:32:08.240 they were trying to deal with the anthrax case because if you recall there was a real wave a very strong

01:32:14.440 wave initially that the anthrax attacks on the east coast had to be committed by an international

01:32:20.880 terrorist it just had to be and uh kathy and i at the time were in the lawrence silvermore lab we'd

01:32:26.740 retired we were working there and the bureau actually called and they said we have a meeting coming up

01:32:31.440 and we're trying to be the voice in the wilderness telling the entirety of the rest of the government

01:32:36.760 that the fbi thinks the anthrax attacks are domestic terrorism and we would hate to see them go off

01:32:43.700 in a different direction and you know end up attacking iraq or something based on this and

01:32:48.660 right so that's the kind of thing that can happen in the kind of discussion that we were literally

01:32:53.600 having after that study and um and after we had left so just a couple of items he was brilliant he

01:33:02.220 what i read that he skipped two grades uh he went off to harvard at age 16 um he graduated with a phd

01:33:11.560 in mathematics in 1967 he would go on to teach mathematics at the university of california at

01:33:17.120 berkeley of course we would see you know bombings in california and the universities there abruptly

01:33:21.980 returned to chicago to live with his parents um and then he wound up purchasing this land in montana

01:33:29.040 and living in this cabin now i also read online that he was at one point he considered himself

01:33:36.120 trans and actually went to seek the operation or at least psychiatric affirmation of that is that true

01:33:45.340 i think there's some discussion in his journals of uh something like that uh to be honest i don't uh

01:33:54.760 i didn't pay a lot of attention to that uh at that time but uh i think he wrote something very

01:34:01.400 similar to that yes and there was never a woman in the picture from what i read i never hear anything

01:34:06.000 about this girlfriend that girl no ex-wife like no women there weren't and he was very disappointed

01:34:13.800 and bothered by that and in fact so disappointed that he put an ad in a newspaper in the uh san

01:34:20.800 francisco bay area in the oakland berkeley area and um the ad is probably the reason he never got what

01:34:26.520 he wanted he said he was uh individual seeking a squaw uh someone who could live a wilderness life

01:34:32.940 and essentially be told what to do and he said he was shocked takers he was he was he was shocked in

01:34:41.540 his journal because then he wrote it and i'm shocked no one responded so i i mean maybe i'm so smart in

01:34:50.120 some ways and not so smart in other ways now what about um there was some reporting that when he went to

01:34:55.900 harvard they did this experiment it was voluntary to take part in it but he was a young kid when he

01:35:00.860 started i mean 16 is very young to be at university um he participated in it was some sort of an

01:35:05.800 experiment to see how well you handled stress and criticism given to you like on a loop about you

01:35:12.500 about your writings and and some theorized this may have been a turning point you know like somehow it

01:35:18.680 drove him crazy what do we know about that well megan we know that's a theory he never says much

01:35:25.440 about it there's a there's another kind of companion thing that he was involved in some

01:35:29.440 unbeknownst to him some secret kind of experimental testing that the cia was doing in some places

01:35:35.440 using students uh but he doesn't really look at any of that as the reason uh that these things happen

01:35:43.080 he himself says people are going to describe all kinds of motives and all of these things to me

01:35:50.200 as the reason i'm doing this they're all wrong i'm doing this because i'm angry and i'm revengeful

01:35:57.820 and this is how i'm going to get even and that's really the strongest thing we have to go by everything

01:36:04.320 else pretty much falls back into the old fact fiction and theory but there's so many people out

01:36:10.040 there now because you know they have access to a lot of his uh library of journals and documents and

01:36:15.080 things and so now everybody is going to weigh in on what theodore kaczynski must be thinking but

01:36:20.160 as you mentioned does he take questions and does he get involved in discussions and

01:36:24.360 sadly in some ways the answer is no we'll never know for sure what's what's he what he's thinking

01:36:29.260 he hated technology he hated advancement he wanted rural caveman type living and really hated anybody or

01:36:36.180 anything that pushed for i would say now 21st century type advancements and i can't imagine what the

01:36:42.800 what the ted kaczynski of the bombing years you know 1998 minus 20 would have thought of twitter and

01:36:50.520 jeff bezos and bill gates and all of it uh i mean i'm sure i i know but so so final point looking back

01:36:58.080 now at the investigation and then comparing it against the real killer what what do you think were the

01:37:05.640 the biggest lessons learned i think the biggest lessons learned are uh kind of almost contrast with

01:37:12.660 each other first of all you have to follow the basics you can't overlook things that you would

01:37:18.020 do in any case whether it's a bank robbery case or anything else you have to follow the basics and get

01:37:22.380 them recorded and then uh remember what is important as you're doing that and at the same time you can't

01:37:28.680 be tied to a system which doesn't move fast enough to keep up with what you're trying to do and in this

01:37:35.300 case when you've got a bombing and then you could have another bombing and another bombing uh you've

01:37:39.820 got to be getting that information out and distributed and then assessing it uh a lot for a long time in all

01:37:46.540 kinds of cases the biggest criticism of the fbi is that it has all this information its biggest weakness

01:37:52.640 is it uh it doesn't really know what it uh what it has and uh because it has so much and so uh that is

01:38:00.320 what we try to overcome and uh so you have to be doing that but then the the other significant thing

01:38:05.520 that i think uh you see all through this and i think today it is true and it will always be true and

01:38:11.360 it was true before i ever became an fbi agent um we are nothing without the public without the help of

01:38:19.400 the public without the trust and support of the public and if we lose that and uh we can debate

01:38:26.120 how people may feel today if we lose that we're in trouble and that ought to be at the forefront of

01:38:32.540 every mind who runs the fbi works in the fbi at any level that if you lose that trust with the public

01:38:39.540 and you don't trust them to help support you and help you with these cases then you've got some big

01:38:45.080 problems law enforcement in a constitutional republic in a free country is about the people

01:38:51.480 and it's about teaming up with those people the fbi used to have an old pamphlet it was called

01:38:57.260 cooperation the backbone of law enforcement and by golly uh that was the basis of all of our media

01:39:03.860 of everything we did and if i had to do over i would have done it faster in greater quantity uh

01:39:10.260 and and by golly uh i would be educating everybody who ever walked into law enforcement

01:39:15.960 that it's about you and the public and they've got to trust you and you've got to depend upon them

01:39:20.840 and that's that's the kind of relationship we have with david yeah and that's where we are today

01:39:25.860 boy oh boy i have things changed since uh you were solving this case and have things

01:39:31.880 and how they need to change back the fbi is seen very differently now and you know what reading how

01:39:36.620 the media worked with you guys on the leaks and trying to protect the public made me think about

01:39:41.080 how the media has changed too and not for the better uh so appreciate your hard work you're

01:39:46.440 telling the story uh it's an honor to know you terry i hope you can come back too thank you megan

01:39:51.560 you too thank you very much on behalf of every other work this case all the best to you thanks

01:39:56.720 for joining us today download the megan kelly show on your podcast youtube.com slash megan kelly to

01:40:01.200 watch it thanks for listening to the megan kelly show no bs no agenda and no fear

The Megyn Kelly Show - December 22, 2021

The Unabomber： A Megyn Kelly Show True Crime Special ｜ Ep. 227

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