The Megyn Kelly Show - The Value of Having Faith, Heaven and Hell, and Believing in Signs, with Father Mike Schmitz

00:00:00.420 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:11.220 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:14.540 Today we are thrilled to be speaking with one of the top podcasters in the world.

00:00:20.040 His show has topped the Apple charts with 750,000 average daily downloads in 2022.

00:00:27.820 That's huge. 350 million total downloads and counting, and 8 billion total listening minutes.

00:00:36.400 Any guesses who it might be? It might surprise you to learn that it is a Catholic priest.

00:00:43.360 Yes, Father Mike Schmitz is host of the wildly popular The Bible in a Year.

00:00:50.360 When he is not reaching his digital audience, he is busy serving as a chaplain for campus ministries

00:00:55.940 at the University of Minnesota, Duluth.

00:00:59.160 We're going to talk about his podcast, but we'll also dive into his personal story,

00:01:03.300 issues of faith, and divisive topics in the news.

00:01:06.680 It's a conversation that is sure to enrich all of us.

00:01:09.760 So excited to have Father Mike here.

00:01:15.680 Father Mike, welcome to the show.

00:01:17.940 Thank you a ton, Megyn. Thank you for having me. I'm really, really grateful.

00:01:21.260 You are also in the business of open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:01:26.460 I like that last word, and provocative conversations. Yes.

00:01:31.080 Every day, every conversation.

00:01:34.000 Let's talk for a little bit about how you became a priest. I find this fascinating.

00:01:37.420 About a year and a half ago, I had on my old priest, Father Jonathan, who I now, we used to call him FJ,

00:01:44.300 and now I call him FFJ because he's formerly Father Jonathan. He left the church, and he married a Good Morning America producer

00:01:52.540 who's also a friend of mine, Caitlin. So Jonathan and Caitlin are now happily married, and they have a little boy,

00:01:57.680 and life is grand. But learning his background of how he got into the priesthood would ultimately set the stage

00:02:03.520 for how he got out of it. And I'm always interested in how somebody chooses to spend their life in the priesthood

00:02:10.440 because it can be very enriching, but it's also limiting in some ways that many of us find totally foreign.

00:02:15.140 So what first drew you to it?

00:02:17.400 Yeah, that's funny. That's a great question.

00:02:19.420 Because it kind of, if I were to give you the answer, which I will, in a provocative way,

00:02:25.580 that it kind of says maybe a lot about me.

00:02:30.060 And so I guess I'll go back to, I grew up in northern Minnesota in a basically small town, 20,000 people.

00:02:37.040 Well, my dad was an orthopedic surgeon. My mom was a nurse, and then she was a stay-at-home mom for us.

00:02:41.640 I have six or six total of us siblings, and I'm the middle. So I have two older sisters, older brother,

00:02:48.120 me, then younger sister, younger brother. And, you know, we were basically, you know, as I said,

00:02:53.700 Catholic, and we had to go to mass every Sunday. I hated it. We had to go to Catholic school. I didn't

00:02:57.720 like it. I didn't get it. I didn't get it. I didn't see the point. And so, but the rule was that if

00:03:03.180 you had to go to mass, and if you couldn't, or if you were too, the only way to get out of mass is

00:03:07.620 if you were too sick to do anything else. And so, but there were times, I mean, I didn't like mass

00:03:12.020 so much. I didn't like going to church so much that I thought, that's a good deal. I will pretend

00:03:16.100 to be sick, get out of one hour of sitting there, basically, and then sit in my room by myself for

00:03:21.840 the entire rest of the day. And I'm like, yes, I'm winning. Like, so I really disliked it. But

00:03:26.380 everything changed at one point. I was about 15 or 16 years old. And it was this kind of

00:03:30.300 what I call a moment of grace, where it was just like, I just became aware personally of,

00:03:38.160 like, I knew the 10 commandments. I knew what like sin was. But all of a sudden, it was one of those,

00:03:42.440 like, oh my gosh, that's what I've done. And it was out of nowhere. I mean, there was, it was kind of

00:03:47.220 out of, yeah, out of the blue, where I just was like, oh my gosh, that's what I've done. That's not,

00:03:53.900 it's not just out there. That's in me. And I remember having this sense of, oh my gosh, I can't just

00:03:59.380 forgive myself. I need to be forgiven. I need a savior. All of a sudden it was like, bing, like,

00:04:03.500 oh, everything they've been telling me this whole time. Like, that makes sense. Because I've been

00:04:08.560 saying, they've been saying, oh, Jesus is your savior. Like, oh yeah. Okay. Now you've given me

00:04:12.980 the answer. I never had the question. And so my first thought was, okay, I need to pray and I need

00:04:18.440 to, I need to go to confession. And I didn't know how to pray. That's a whole nother story. But I knew

00:04:24.280 where the priest lived. And so it was 10 o'clock, literally 10 o'clock on a Tuesday morning. I got on my bike

00:04:28.660 and I rode over across town to where the priest lived right next to the church. And I knocked on

00:04:32.100 the door and he was there because as we know, priests only work one day a week. And, and he

00:04:36.940 answers. And, and I said, father, can I, can I go to confession? Sure. Come on in, sat down on the

00:04:41.220 couch. And I remember leaving that rectory, leaving that house. And I stepped off the front porch and I

00:04:46.840 had three super, that's absolutely clear thoughts. My first thought was, God, I'm so grateful. Thank you so

00:04:52.800 much. Cause I just, I was really interiorly weighed down and I was like, but you've just forgiven me. I,

00:04:58.100 I, I knew you may be new. My second thought was, um, God, if you want me to be a priest, I will hear

00:05:04.200 anyone's confession anytime they ask. And I, and again, this is from someone who until like a day

00:05:09.260 before it didn't even care about going to mass. So like, but I'm thinking my second thought, my first

00:05:12.980 thought, as I said, God, thank you so much. My second thought, if you want me to be a priest, I will hear

00:05:16.360 anyone's confession anytime they ask. My third thought was, oh, she's really cute. Like, you know, so that

00:05:20.880 began this like kind of, I don't want to say tortured because that's really dramatic, but it began a

00:05:26.800 dramatic, you know, rise and fall over my high school years and college years. I'm like, what is it that

00:05:32.520 God wants me to do? And so kind of to wrap it up, I went to a Catholic college, but not to a seminary. I

00:05:39.580 just wanted to study theology. Um, there I met this incredible woman and I was planning on getting married

00:05:44.860 to her. I graduated college and was a missionary in Central America for just one year. But when I was

00:05:50.420 there, it just became very, very clear. I was excited, so excited to get back and to start a life with this

00:05:55.220 woman, just incredible woman. Um, but when I was there, it just became very clear that God was just

00:06:01.360 inviting me to TV and just try to take that step to go to seminary. And I have to tell you that it was,

00:06:07.880 um, simultaneously one of the hardest moments in the sense of just a lot of sadness, like deep sadness

00:06:14.780 at the same time. Cause I was in love with this woman. I'm just like, absolutely, you know, love her.

00:06:19.840 But at the same time, there was a great spirit of joy of like, oh yeah, this is what I've been

00:06:24.500 praying for for the last 10 years. Ever since I was 15, I've been praying every day. God,

00:06:27.980 if you want me to be priest, just let me know. And here was the moment where you finally said, okay,

00:06:32.480 take this next step. Um, and so it was a great, it was, it was incredible because it was a moment

00:06:37.280 of again, sorrow, but also a moment of, uh, great peace and great joy of like, okay, this is the next

00:06:43.220 step. And there's more to the story. And, and sometimes when I tell that story, it sounds really

00:06:46.880 bad for her. Uh, she was taken care of. We can talk about that if you want, but that's kind of

00:06:50.780 taken care of. No, it's, it sounds heartbreaking for her. I can't imagine for our listening

00:06:55.820 audience. Father Mike is a very attractive man. Forgive me, Lord. Um, but I'm just saying

00:07:01.100 she must've been like, no, no, no, that's not what the Lord is saying at all. You've misread

00:07:05.980 his messaging. Right? No. And this is really important because I've talked to so many young

00:07:10.360 women and young men who's, you know, fiancees or girlfriends, whatever left for, you know,

00:07:15.260 some other kind of pursuit, like religious life, um, who have been, actually, I've been

00:07:18.980 talked to some people have been mad at me because their boyfriend broke up with them

00:07:22.060 to go to seminary. And I'm like, it's not my fault for, for, for this particular, uh, relationship.

00:07:28.460 She, I remember the very moment when I told her, uh, it was a Friday night. There was only

00:07:34.280 one phone in the village that I was living in. And it was seven o'clock at night. It was pitch

00:07:38.860 black because the power had gone out, except for the phones were still, were still live.

00:07:42.780 And, uh, and she knew something was up because we wrote to each other twice a day, every day.

00:07:46.740 I mean, just, we, I just really, really loved her. She loved me back, which was amazing,

00:07:49.940 but she could tell something was going on. And she said, let's talk on Friday. So here I am

00:07:54.640 sitting, sitting in the dark and the phone rings and I'm like, Hey, um, she's like, what's, so what's

00:07:59.220 going on? And I said, I, I think I'm going to go to seminary next year. And her first thought,

00:08:06.000 her, her first words where she said, she said, I knew that this was a possibility before we started

00:08:11.460 dating. And just like, it's okay. I knew it was a possibility and I'm just bawling. I'm literally

00:08:16.580 just my tears. And I'm just like, but I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. And she said, no, listen,

00:08:21.380 if this is what God wants for you, then this is what God wants for me too. Like if he's calling

00:08:26.060 you somewhere else, I know he's calling me somewhere else too. And that's one of the things

00:08:29.540 that I've come to this conviction of whenever there's someone discerning anything. And there's

00:08:35.020 the other person who's like maybe the casualty or the person who gets left behind or something

00:08:38.320 like this. I've come to the conviction that whenever I'm talking to someone, I have to

00:08:42.860 remind them, you are not an extra in someone else's discernment story. Like you're not an

00:08:48.040 extra in the story of how God is calling someone else because he's, he is also in your life.

00:08:53.360 He's also calling you somewhere. And, and she just, she, I remember at the time thinking, well,

00:08:58.820 you could pretend to be a little bit sad. I mean, here I am bawling. Um, but she was, she was

00:09:03.880 a strong one and I'm really grateful that she was. Did she go on to get married? Like

00:09:08.500 what happened to her? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She is married and she has at least one, one child,

00:09:13.200 maybe two. Um, and, uh, I think that I know that she is living a life that, that is really

00:09:20.900 blessed. So, and it just is full. And, and so, yeah, it's good. All right. So let me ask you

00:09:27.280 an indelicate question since I've already done this with FFJ. I feel like I can go there. Um,

00:09:32.220 did you come to know her in a way that would help you understand what you are now missing

00:09:36.880 as a priest, uh, with all the vows that you have to take, including abstinence?

00:09:42.980 Yeah, no, I, I think that there, I've learned so much, um, in the course of like, there are the,

00:09:49.920 are those relationships that I had before I went to seminary and had to just for me so much when it

00:09:55.860 comes to, okay. I, cause I, I counsel couples all of the time, which on the surface seems very strange,

00:10:01.520 when I do like marriage preparation classes, it's like, wait, you, why? Let's talk to the

00:10:07.560 single guy and you do, you help people prepare. And one of the things is, is I get to stand on

00:10:12.200 the outside and I get to encounter, I get to be brought into the inside of so many people's

00:10:17.260 relationships, not just one relationship, but like dozens and dozens and hundreds.

00:10:21.180 That's true. And so the part of that is like, oh, wow, I'm learning stuff all of the time. So

00:10:25.020 yes, from her and others that I had dated previously learned so much. And even since then,

00:10:30.460 when I'm, I'm getting, when I, whenever I'm invited into couples relationships, it's like,

00:10:35.440 oh my gosh, I can see just another aspect of here's the human hearts, especially when it comes

00:10:40.740 to romantic relationships, those human hearts that are just trying, they're trying to, they're

00:10:44.560 trying to love each other. And how, how crazy is it that the person that you want to love the most

00:10:50.800 sometimes can be the most difficult to love. And, uh, so just being brought into that has been

00:10:56.740 really, really, I did not expect that. Yeah. Helpful. Yeah. I can see that. I remember. Uh,

00:11:02.440 so I'm, I'm married to Doug, but before there was Doug, there was Dan. And I, so I had a first

00:11:07.900 marriage and, and we had to go through pre-cana and we had counseling with our priest. And, uh,

00:11:12.860 I remember him saying to me, so I was an aspiring, I was a lawyer actually when we got married and I had

00:11:17.060 a successful career. And my, my fiance, Dan was in medical school and was going to become a successful

00:11:23.980 doctor. And now the, the priest knew this. I was already a professional and my soon to be husband

00:11:29.780 was going to be. And he looked at me and he said, this is not, I don't know, year 2000. Uh, and he

00:11:35.180 said, now listen, when he gets home from work, you have to make sure, you know, if you've been all day

00:11:40.980 in the sweatpants and the t-shirt, like put on a little makeup, try to make yourself look a little

00:11:45.940 nice. You know, you want to, and I remember thinking, my God, this is the most sexist advice ever.

00:11:50.160 Can I tell you something father? And it is sex, but he was a hundred percent right. He was right.

00:11:55.660 I'm sorry, but it's true. It applies to both parties, but like you do have to, I think now

00:12:02.020 happily married to, to Doug, uh, for almost, well, 15 years now. Yeah. You do have to make an effort.

00:12:08.660 He wasn't totally wrong in the sentiment. Right. Yeah. Even, even if like, it was like,

00:12:12.860 wait a second, I'm coming home and Doug's meeting or Dan's meeting me like that kind of situation.

00:12:17.220 Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. But, but there's an element there too. I just, I come back to this where,

00:12:22.040 um, how, how careless we can become with each other. Um, especially again, in families, uh,

00:12:28.720 whether that be the husband and wife or parents and their kids, vice versa, is there's that sense of,

00:12:34.460 I don't know if you've ever experienced this. I know I have, but sometimes the people that I've said

00:12:40.060 the worst things to the people I've treated the worst are the people that I'm related to the people

00:12:44.860 that I, you know, share a roof with. And I just think, I remember my, my mom pointing this out

00:12:50.360 when I was, you know, pretty young, still she, she was exasperated. She said, how is it that I get

00:12:56.040 stopped all of the time by people saying like, Oh, your son, Michael is so nice. He is so gracious.

00:13:01.320 He's so kind to us, but you're so mean to us here at home. And I'm like, Oh man, that is true. Like,

00:13:07.760 yeah, I just, I don't like it. So it's funny. Cause I, I certainly can relate to that from my

00:13:13.320 family of origin growing up as a kid, which is what, you know, you're referring to when you were

00:13:16.660 a kid as a mother. I, I cannot relate. And I'll tell you just to distill it down into some one

00:13:22.040 little pearl of wisdom, Dr. Phil back in the day said something that really resonated with me. And I

00:13:28.080 think about it all the time when I'm having disagreements with my children or my husband,

00:13:31.200 and that was, how can you win when the person you love is losing? Yeah. So right on.

00:13:40.500 Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Because, because you know, you're not just, you're not just playing

00:13:44.180 this game for today. It's, it's, this is, you're here tomorrow and you're here next week and you're

00:13:49.640 here next month. And those little, those little cracks that you don't actually just like, let's

00:13:54.240 meet each other. But like, no, I won. Here's my, my point. They just, they build up.

00:13:59.360 Yeah. Especially with your spouse. Cause you know, with your kids, you can get frustrated,

00:14:03.900 but true anger, at least so far for me has been rare with your spouse. You know, of course they

00:14:07.600 can get under it. They can get on your last nerve. But if you just remember that, like I'm not winning

00:14:11.820 if I'm hurting this person I love more than anybody, how is that a win for me? You know,

00:14:16.580 it's like a temporary moment of victory, but it's empty and it's meaningless and it actually is very

00:14:21.000 self-sabotaging. So anyway, I, I like your point of like, you were out there and you did some

00:14:25.720 dating and you kind of understand going into it. Um, so, so since you become a priest, let me just,

00:14:31.500 I'm going to get off of this weirdness, I promise. But since you become a priest, since, um, I know

00:14:36.260 I've got this FFJ situation in my life, not to mention I'm obsessed with the Thornbirds. I've got

00:14:40.940 to imagine there's been some women in your life who've been like, yo, father Mike, I'm back again

00:14:47.560 for yet another confession. You're like, you were just here four times yesterday. Have you ever felt

00:14:52.380 that from, you know, any young women? Um, you know, it's, it's funny because, um, I, maybe I don't

00:15:00.180 think that I'm dense. Like, I think that I, I have a pretty good sense of people and pretty good sense

00:15:04.900 of, um, I have to say though, at the same time, um, I, I think that I also relatively good with

00:15:13.540 boundaries in that sense of, um, I mean, from the beginning, it's, it seems like that hasn't ever

00:15:20.380 really been a, I haven't been like this, you're making it sound like, you know, have you been

00:15:25.880 pursued by someone, um, only by strange people on the internet? I will say that, but otherwise in

00:15:31.640 person, in person, there are some really clear boundaries that I think it's just like, oh,

00:15:35.320 here's healthy. And if someone is kind of like interested, the boundaries are so clear that I

00:15:40.780 think it's like, I think it's shot down pretty quick. Again, I could be dense. I could just miss it.

00:15:46.400 But, uh, also one of the things that I I've noticed is this is right now. So I've been,

00:15:51.340 I've been on campus for 18 years. This is my 18th year of being on a college campus. And,

00:15:55.520 and so people, you know, ask like you just, just did Megan where it's like, so how about, you know,

00:16:00.460 these, these young women coming up and I'm like, here's something I realized two years ago. I,

00:16:06.860 it was in the middle of pandemic summer or something like this. And I got an email from a dad and he had

00:16:10.940 said, Hey, can we, my, my son's a junior in high school. He wants to take a look at UMD. Can he come up?

00:16:15.440 Like, absolutely. We had this interchange back and forth. And so we arranged to have them come

00:16:20.280 to the Newman house to kind of check it out. So they pull into the, into the parking lot outside

00:16:24.060 and he and his wife and three of their sons get out and they walk into the house. I'm like, well,

00:16:27.560 here it is, you know, it's pretty small place. And just this and this, at one point he says, um,

00:16:31.500 well, we were going to pass through by St. John's university, which is where I went to school

00:16:34.860 and pick up some, some, what they call Johnny bread. So the monks there bake bread. And it's kind

00:16:38.980 of a big deal in Minnesota. And I said, Oh my gosh, that'd be great. But, um, I went there

00:16:43.440 and this guy looks at me and he says, I know we were in the same class. I was like, Oh,

00:16:49.780 well, I had two thoughts. My first thought was you could have told me in this email exchange

00:16:54.320 that we were in the same class. Give me a heads up here. And his wife, he's like, yeah,

00:16:57.480 my wife and I, we were in the same, you and I, the three of us took the same senior thesis

00:17:02.560 class essentially. And then I'm looking at, looking at the two of them. My only thought

00:17:08.920 was, huh? So this is what we look like because I'm around 18 to 24 year olds all of the time.

00:17:17.820 And I can, in my head, start to keep just thinking like, yeah, yeah, I'm kind of roughly

00:17:21.600 that same age. And like looking at them going, no, we're the same age. I look like you. And it was

00:17:26.800 like, okay, there's a pretty big gap between, uh, me and the students that I serve. And it's,

00:17:32.220 it's a good gap. Maybe I'm more dense than I knew. Well, I guarantee you, you are a little bit more

00:17:37.220 dense than you knew because you, the, the student professor relationship is fraught with sexual

00:17:44.340 tension. It just is. And I've told the story before, but when I was in law school, I had this mad crush

00:17:49.520 on this dweeby little professor. He must've been about 115 pounds soaking wet. He had no hair

00:17:55.300 and he wore a sweater vest, Argyle sweater vest. Okay. That in no other world on earth would I

00:18:01.720 have been attracted to this man, but he was an authority figure and he was brilliant and he

00:18:05.520 lectured so well. And there's just no, no chance that this hasn't happened to you. It doesn't mean

00:18:10.160 these ladies have acted on it, but I'm just saying beware. And if you haven't seen the Thornbirds,

00:18:14.740 you need to go watch it. So what you're saying is Megan, you have a type. It's the sweater vest.

00:18:20.540 Well, no longer. Now my husband will never take off his Mickey Mouse shirt for some reason.

00:18:25.460 And I don't find that particularly attractive, but the guy inside of it works for me. Definitely.

00:18:30.820 Okay. So you decide to become a priest and, and how do you, were you always in Minnesota where

00:18:35.900 you're from? Did you ever have to move around and go to, you know, other places?

00:18:39.700 Yeah, that's pretty much all in Minnesota. Yep. So I went to a seminary in St. Paul and then

00:18:45.280 I got ordained and then moved up to actually my bishop and had assigned me here to the campus

00:18:50.980 right away. And, um, I'm really grateful what happened. This sounds bad now. Um, about two

00:18:55.920 weeks into it, one of our priests in our diocese unexpectedly died. And so they had to shift a bunch

00:18:59.920 of guys around and I was one of the shiftees. So I got shifted up to Hibbing, Minnesota, home of Bob

00:19:04.860 Dylan and Kevin McHale. Um, and so I got to be up there right down the street from Judy Garland's

00:19:10.080 birthplace. Those are our three famous people. Um, and, and, uh, and so I was up in Hibbing for

00:19:15.600 two years, um, Northern Minnesota, iron range. And that was so good for me to be in a parish

00:19:20.440 because I, I looked at my life and I was, I realized I've been in school ever since I was

00:19:27.260 preschool. And then throughout the one year off to be a missionary, that was it. But I taught in a

00:19:31.500 school and it was so helpful for me to actually be in a parish where there's people from infants to

00:19:37.640 the end of life. And, and that just, that grew me a lot. And so I'm really grateful for that.

00:19:43.020 But as soon as the Bishop could, he moved me back after two years, moved me back down to

00:19:46.420 University of Minnesota Duluth. And so I've been here ever since.

00:19:49.600 Does, does anybody go to Catholic mass in a campus? You know, it seems like young people are

00:19:54.560 more disaffected than ever when it comes to religion. So does anybody show up?

00:19:58.840 That's a good question. Um, because, uh, the, the statistics are pretty bad in the sense of,

00:20:03.960 um, I think it's eight, 80 to 90% of, uh, those raised Catholic, uh, abandoned the faith

00:20:11.440 as adults. And so on campus, that's, that's one of the reasons why I have such a love for being on

00:20:16.880 campus is because what I've found is those who've been raised Catholic don't necessarily have, um,

00:20:25.160 any anger toward the church. They don't necessarily have anything they really, really disagree with if

00:20:29.440 they ask the questions. What I've found is that they just haven't either had a chance to ask the

00:20:34.620 questions or they haven't had a chance to have someone who's like actually going to be willing

00:20:38.040 to like take the time and walk with them because yeah, we have hundreds and hundreds of students

00:20:43.320 every week who, who join us every single week, every, every day. And, and that's, I love being here.

00:20:49.560 And I know that at some point when they move me away to go to a parish, I will have to let go of that.

00:20:54.560 But, um, this is, I can't think of a better place, uh, to be doing ministry because I just,

00:21:00.500 it's such a crucial time. Maybe I'm crazy, but I have to tell you, I, and I am,

00:21:06.480 I don't know how to describe it. I don't want to call myself a lame Catholic,

00:21:09.640 but I wouldn't exactly say I'm on the road to sainthood either. Um, but I do go to church,

00:21:14.880 uh, every Sunday with my kids and my husband. And, uh, I have noticed an uptick in attendance over

00:21:20.380 the past year plus, I mean, in, at both my church in Connecticut and where we go on the Jersey shore

00:21:27.580 in the summer, it is standing room only. And I'm telling you five years ago, it was definitely not

00:21:34.220 this case this way. And I just, I wonder whether there's any backup for that on a larger basis.

00:21:40.320 I think there is because, um, one of the things, again, the, the statistics are from a couple of

00:21:45.900 years ago where it's, you know, these, this kind of being disaffected and, and there are,

00:21:50.580 there is, I can't argue with the rise of the nuns, right? N-O-N-E-S-S, those people who are

00:21:54.780 no longer religiously affiliated. That's a real thing. And, and so that's one of the things that

00:21:59.380 I think we've been trying to address. Um, but at the same time, I think slowly, and I don't want to

00:22:04.720 be too rosy about it, but I think slowly we've been, we've been addressing some things. And, um,

00:22:10.800 I also think you noticed in the last few years, I, I mean, you take, for example, the, the podcast,

00:22:17.380 um, I don't, I can't tell you how many people, not just young people, but people who are writing

00:22:23.220 to me 70, I'm father Mike, I'm 84 years old and I've been Catholic my whole life. I never understood

00:22:28.580 the Bible until I listened to the podcast, or I never realized here's what's what the depth that

00:22:35.340 we have been given. I've been going to mass every Sunday in my life. I never realized the depth

00:22:39.060 that would have been given until now. And I think there's this combination of renewed interest

00:22:43.620 in, in longing for, for something more meaningful and more substantial with an opportunity like this.

00:22:50.440 I think you're so right. That's actually what I get out of it too. And I don't know whether I just

00:22:55.080 wasn't paying attention when I went to CCD as a kid or whether I learned it all and I just forgot it,

00:23:01.500 but I don't remember really learning scripture as a young Catholic. And when you go to mass,

00:23:07.240 you know, some is red and then you get the homily, but like, I, I just feel like maybe

00:23:12.520 evangelical Christians immerse themselves in the Bible more than Catholics do. I'm not sure. What

00:23:17.600 is it? Yeah, that's a good question because I, because there is that, um, stereotype you might

00:23:23.260 say, or there's the cliche of like, I'm Catholic. I don't need to know the Bible, which actually,

00:23:28.120 if you go back to the beginning, one of the early church fathers named St. Jerome,

00:23:31.960 he had said this, this phrase that is very convicting for anyone who's ever said, listen,

00:23:37.380 I'm Catholic. I don't need the Bible. He said, ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ.

00:23:42.020 So that's essentially the equivalent of saying I'm Catholic. I don't need to know Jesus,

00:23:45.820 which is completely not what anyone would want to say. And so, and so I, but I think though,

00:23:51.500 that there is a potential, I mean, if you go to mass every Sunday at the end of a three-year cycle,

00:23:58.400 you will have heard something like 70% of the Bible. And so, so we do hear scripture as Catholics.

00:24:04.620 The problem is, I think we show up for mass during the week or during the weekend. And all of a sudden,

00:24:10.600 here's a reading from the book of the prophet Amos, like, great. Who's that? Who's that? All

00:24:15.420 of a sudden he's saying these words and like, I have no idea what he's talking about. We might get

00:24:20.280 something out of the gospel because kind of maybe more familiar with that. We kind of know the context

00:24:24.320 that has something to do with Jesus. But I, I, if we had the opportunity to do something like this,

00:24:29.660 where we listen to the whole story and we kind of get the story, even if I don't know exactly who

00:24:35.900 Amos is, I could say, oh yeah, but he was a prophet to the Southern kingdom. I remember there was like

00:24:40.800 two divided kingdoms and okay, he's telling them this and we get a little more context. Then all of a

00:24:45.940 sudden it's, it's the, the phrase, you know, the, the saying it comes alive. And I think that's

00:24:51.500 one of the things that can happen. But until that moment, it's like, man, it can seem a little dead

00:24:56.380 and dry. I really feel like the, the priesthood would benefit from the lesson I learned early on

00:25:00.940 in my broadcasting career, which is the people who know the backstory will forgive you a line or two

00:25:08.200 of explanation before you deliver the story. The people who don't know the backstory will be forever

00:25:13.520 grateful that you didn't assume they knew it before you started your reading.

00:25:17.680 Completely. Oh my gosh. I'm so glad you said it like that too, because there are times when I feel,

00:25:23.600 okay, I don't want to have to recover this or I don't want to bore you, but here's the backstory.

00:25:28.680 But just like you said, and you know, actually Megan, when it comes to like, even like you said,

00:25:34.100 being raised Catholic, I was talking with, with some people from the Archdiocese of Chicago last

00:25:38.600 week, cause they were, they just wanted to, they're, they're trying to do this initiative there

00:25:42.240 where they're improving, trying to improve preaching. And, and so they said, well, what are

00:25:47.380 some things that preachers need to know? And I wouldn't need, what do they need to do? Or what

00:25:51.000 did they basically ask me and said, what do you do? And I said, well, again, I, I don't claim to be

00:25:57.000 an expert, but here's what I do. The first thing is I never assume that I have the congregation on my

00:26:04.960 side that, that, you know, sometimes I don't know if you've ever been to mass and all of a sudden

00:26:09.500 the priest gets up and he just starts basically based, uh, kind of starting from all these

00:26:13.900 assumptions. First, the assumption is that, um, we think you have something to say. Well, I don't,

00:26:19.040 I don't assume that they think I have something to say. Second assumption is that you're assuming

00:26:23.680 we believe all the same things, same things you believe, or we're at the same place that you're at,

00:26:27.900 or that we see it the same way you do. And that sense of, okay, I don't even assume that they trust

00:26:32.540 me. And so there's a sense of, okay, I can't assume in any way, shape or form that they're on my side.

00:26:39.100 And so to start from there is to be able to say, okay, um, if I don't know that you're on my side,

00:26:46.260 how do I, how do we get to a place where we're having some common ground and then going somewhere?

00:26:50.140 And I think taking that kind of time. And I think I try to do it as a way to offer like respect.

00:26:55.920 If you're going to listen to me for the next 20 minutes, cause my homilies go a little long.

00:26:59.160 If you're going to listen to me for the next 20 minutes, then, um, I need to respect you and

00:27:04.240 earn your trust. Yeah. Cause I've listened to your, uh, your YouTube, your, your weekly,

00:27:10.040 weekly masses online at YouTube as well. And, uh, you have a separate podcast, which will give just

00:27:14.960 the homily. And I've listened to those too. And I appreciate it. Cause you do, you do the thing.

00:27:18.700 My brother's Pete Kelly, and he has a, he has a very good rule of conversation, which he unleashed

00:27:23.180 on our stepsister shortly after, uh, we were introduced to her and she was rambling on in some

00:27:27.740 pointless story. And he interrupted her. He's five years older and said in the middle of it,

00:27:31.860 why are you telling me this story? I did not. And you always tell us why you are about to tell us

00:27:40.740 this story. Like why, what I'm about to tell you matters. And now here, let me read to you from

00:27:46.060 the Bible. And now I'm going to tell you what you just heard and how it translates into your life.

00:27:49.980 That that's such a simple formula. More priests need to do that.

00:27:53.200 It is, except at the same time. So I got a call from my older brother once

00:27:57.860 and he left a message and he was, he was my brother. So I have a very driven set of siblings.

00:28:05.180 Um, three of them are doctors. Uh, the other two are in other fields that just involve a lot of,

00:28:11.680 a lot of drive. So this is the, he's in the military and is incredible, incredible man.

00:28:17.200 So he, um, he called me and he was hemming and hawing, which is very unusual for him.

00:28:21.320 He leaves this message. He's like, so, um, just coming back from mass. And I just,

00:28:25.260 I just, ah, I was thinking the father was, he was preaching and

00:28:29.300 at school, do they teach you how to preach? You're just so frustrated.

00:28:34.740 It's important.

00:28:35.460 I'm like, oh, okay. Um, so here's my brother. So I always think of my siblings

00:28:40.000 whenever I'm preaching, whenever I'm trying to get ready for a sermon or a homily, a talk,

00:28:44.500 I think, okay, what would Mark think here? What would Matthew think about this? If he,

00:28:49.180 if they showed up, um, they'd be like, cause he, I know, and you know, that we have to repeat things.

00:28:56.020 If we don't repeat things, people will forget them automatically. And so one of the things I

00:29:00.220 tried to do is have something that's repeated throughout that it's not overly redundant.

00:29:03.780 Like I'm not just saying the same point. I'm making a new point anyways. And he's like,

00:29:07.700 why do you say the same thing over and over again? I'm like, well, do you remember what it was?

00:29:11.780 Maybe that was effective. I don't know. I'm just going to, I rest my case.

00:29:14.560 So you got Mark, you got Matthew, you got Michael. I'm sensing a theme here with your

00:29:19.320 parents. Clearly you only with the boys. The girls are, are Beth, Amy, and Sarah. So.

00:29:24.500 Okay. No, no, you'll appreciate this because, um, we, we go to a parish, St. Michael's. And one of

00:29:30.100 the things they do at the end is they read, and I've never seen this at another parish where,

00:29:35.080 you know, you're named after one of the saints and you read, we read the prayer to St. Michael,

00:29:38.420 which I have to say is the most exciting part of the mass for my kids. And I, I have it here. I

00:29:44.760 don't know it by heart, but for the audience members, you're going to, you're going to see

00:29:48.140 why my kids love it. Here it is. St. Michael, the archangel defend us in battle, be our protection

00:29:53.800 against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him. We humbly pray. Oh, do thou,

00:29:59.880 Oh Prince of the heavenly hosts by the power of God cast into hell, Satan and all the evil spirits who

00:30:05.740 roam about the world, seeking the ruin of souls. Amen. Father Mike, it's good. It gets dark. It's

00:30:14.400 kind of exciting. And my kids really look forward to it. Yeah. You know that we, we pray that for

00:30:19.560 every at the end of every mass as well. And, um, that prayer actually comes from, I think it was

00:30:23.680 Pope Leo the 13th at one point. The story is that he had just gotten done saying, maybe you know the

00:30:28.380 story already, so I don't want to. No, I guarantee. Okay. So, so he, he, um, had just gotten done saying

00:30:34.040 mass as, as the Pope and he leaves and he leaves the sanctuary. He's going into this room off to

00:30:40.080 the side called the sacristy where you take all the vestments off and stuff. And, and he's in that,

00:30:44.740 that space between the sanctuary and the sacristy and he, and he collapses. And in this collapse,

00:30:50.760 he has this vision and this vision is something along the lines that he tried to put it into words.

00:30:55.960 He said that it was this vision of, um, that for the next hundred years, uh, Satan would have reign

00:31:02.560 over, over the world would have, would have some kind of sense of unique form of dominion over the

00:31:08.940 world. And he, he came out of this vision, came out of this trance kind of thing. And he walks over

00:31:14.740 to this piece of paper and he just starts writing down this, this prayer, um, knowing that, okay,

00:31:19.840 if this is what's going to happen, we have to invoke the help of the Lord. We have to invoke the help of

00:31:25.320 our guardian angels, including, especially St. Michael, um, the archangel. And, uh, what's

00:31:29.740 fascinating and in a tragic way is that was the last century of all the destruction that had

00:31:36.080 happened, not only in Europe, in Asia, throughout the entire world. Um, and so it's just kind of,

00:31:41.840 it, it, it seems to line up a bit. And so you're, I like, I, I resonate with your kids in that sense

00:31:47.680 of, okay, it reminds us like, okay, this is, um, the world is like, one of the things we believe

00:31:52.800 as Catholic Christians is the world is good. Um, but also it's been broken and the world is good,

00:31:58.080 but it's not, it's not a playground. It's more like a battlefield than anything. And so I like

00:32:03.280 to talk to you about the devil. I want to talk to you about the devil in hell. I've read some of what

00:32:07.000 you said on that. Um, and so we, we may very much need to be saying that, that prayer a lot more than

00:32:12.020 we do much, much more to discuss with father Mike, including some of the hot topics dividing our

00:32:16.000 nation today, including abortion. And what about all these attacks we've been seeing on these pro-life

00:32:20.040 clinics who attacks a pro-life clinic? I'm sorry, but it's insane. Uh, before we do though,

00:32:25.960 I want to bring you another of our memorable moments from the first two years when our two

00:32:30.320 year anniversary week of the Megan Kelly show. This one comes from almost exactly one year ago

00:32:35.980 when my pal Tucker Carlson came on in episode one 67, Tucker opened up about his mom in a way he rarely

00:32:44.740 has listen. Criticism from people. I, who hate me doesn't really mean anything to me. I think it

00:32:52.840 really doesn't. I care what the people I love think I care deeply. If my wife is upset with me, I, I, you

00:32:58.500 know, I can't even function because I care so much about what she thinks. And my children, same thing.

00:33:02.600 My close friends, I have a bunch of lifelong friends, people I work with. I feel that way about

00:33:07.420 them too. But like some random, you know, the ADL doesn't like me or something. The partisan who

00:33:14.160 runs it. Like, I don't care. Why would I care? I'm not giving those people emotional control over

00:33:19.300 me. I've been through that. I lived through that as a child. I'm not doing that again. Um, I got this

00:33:24.880 call, like she's dying and in, in this weird little town and set on a farm that she lived on in

00:33:30.540 Southwestern France. And, and she was basically French at this point, spent her life there. Uh, you should

00:33:35.900 go visit her. And so I call my brother and he's like, what? No, you know, my son's got a soccer

00:33:40.560 game. And I said, I feel the same way. I don't know this person. And actually this sounds cold

00:33:45.360 or whatever, but I had already kind of made my peace with this over many decades, over 35 years.

00:33:51.900 And I didn't fall apart at all. It was a fascinating episode. If you want to go back and listen to that

00:33:58.380 one, worth your time. If you haven't been downloading the Bible in a year, it's well worth

00:34:06.960 your time. And Father Mike actually has a new podcast that he's getting ready to release as well,

00:34:10.840 which we'll get to in just a little bit. It's about the catechism. I got to confess something

00:34:15.160 to you right here, Father Mike. I didn't even know what that was. I said to Abby, my assistant,

00:34:18.720 can you Google catechism? I don't know what that is. I gather it's a book about religion in general,

00:34:25.620 but I guess you'll be doing the one that's about the Catholic faith. Is there one catechism about

00:34:30.720 Catholicism? Right. You are correct. It is a book. And it is, yeah. So it is a summary of what

00:34:39.120 we believe as Catholics. So there have been a number of catechisms over the course of the last

00:34:44.180 2000 years. The most recent one was actually the big, this is the most recent universal catechism.

00:34:51.100 What I mean by that is where the whole church comes together and they say, okay, this is for the

00:34:55.220 whole world. And it becomes, it's really broad. It's really deep. The one previous was the

00:35:00.600 catechism of the council of Trent. So in the 1500s, and from that they made like, maybe you've heard

00:35:05.280 the term, the Baltimore catechism. So that was, that was, that was a term of Baltimore catechism

00:35:10.360 was, was a book that was, came out of Baltimore in the, I think early 1900s where they took the

00:35:15.020 teachings from council of Trent and made them more accessible so that you could teach from it. In fact,

00:35:19.300 so, but this one came out, I think in 1991, 1992, somewhere in there. And it's, it's, it's beautiful,

00:35:25.240 but it's a summary of all the Catholics believe. And so. Is it like, is it like the Bible for dummies?

00:35:30.220 Like what is, how does it differ from the Bible? Right. So, so the Bible is amazing. So, okay,

00:35:35.800 let me just share a little bit. I've been, I've begun recording the catechism because I have to get a

00:35:40.020 kind of a lead on it because it's dense. And the Bible was so easy. I mean, in, in, in, in comparison,

00:35:46.020 because the Bible is a story and yes, there's all the names and yes, there's some of the things

00:35:50.140 like, wait, what's going on here in this kind of situation? Trying to make sense of things.

00:35:54.380 The catechism is not a story. The catechism is, here's what we believe about that, that,

00:35:58.560 that, that going down the line. Right. So here's what we believe about how God reveals himself.

00:36:02.400 Here's what we believe about our response to God called faith. Here's what we believe about the

00:36:05.660 Trinity and it gets good, but it starts really, it's really dry at first, I have to say.

00:36:12.900 Mm-hmm. So you're, you're, you liven it up.

00:36:16.680 I hope so, but it's, it's, it's, it's been a learning process for me because again,

00:36:21.380 the, the, with the Bible, I'm like, well, especially if you, um, the first few episodes

00:36:26.100 of the Bible are, you know, the first chapter, couple of chapters of Genesis and Job, which

00:36:30.260 are things that I have been reading and praying about for years and years and years with the

00:36:35.200 catechism, the first couple of paragraphs, couple of days are like, oh, here's the introduction

00:36:39.280 to the catechism, which I'm like, okay, uh, awesome. I'm just hoping that people stick

00:36:45.480 around to like day 20. Cause that, by that point we're like, then we take off and then

00:36:49.080 it gets really, really good. But unlike the Bible, it, it's a little bit to warm up to.

00:36:54.040 Well, I have to tell you, I mean, I didn't know what to expect on the Bible, uh, in a year

00:36:57.920 because I really wasn't that familiar with scripture. You know, I couldn't quote it. I'm not somebody

00:37:02.540 who does a lot of Bible studying. Um, but I found it fascinating. And I've said,

00:37:06.320 I've told this story on the air before. I love crime podcasts. I'm, you know, one of those women

00:37:10.880 who I'm into crime and I love Dateline. And, um, I, I can have Dateline in, Dateline on playing

00:37:18.200 when my children walk in the room, but father Mike and Bible in a year, we're on Sodom and

00:37:23.180 Gomorrah. I'm like, when the kids, there's some R rated chapters in there. Did you, I don't know if

00:37:31.060 someone asked me about this last week, they said, when did you start putting in like the, uh,

00:37:35.120 like disclaimers at the beginning that by the way, if there's children present, you get,

00:37:39.560 because we had so many people writing, writing to us saying, okay, we were listening as a family

00:37:44.540 in the car and you started talking about, and I was like, oh shoot. So the Bible is not for kids.

00:37:50.540 A lot of incest. Yeah. And you're like, oh gosh, that's, and that's the thing that it takes so many

00:37:56.960 people by surprise is because think about even the story of Noah. And I mean, that's, that's in

00:38:02.180 virtually every children's, you know, picture Bible, every children's, whatever, like, oh yeah,

00:38:07.420 Noah and the ark and the flood and the, and the, and the rainbow. Okay. And the flood right in there,

00:38:13.780 like where everyone died. Yeah. That's part of the story. And it's one of those where I think

00:38:18.240 sometimes as adults, we're like, I remember hearing these stories as a kid where I just kind of passed

00:38:23.700 by as opposed to, wow, I really have to engage with the Bible is not a Hallmark. I always say like,

00:38:30.420 it's not the Hallmark channel. It is. Right. No, it's not. It's HBO. Especially the old

00:38:36.280 Testament. The old Testament was like, okay, buckle in, get ready. Yeah. Yeah. And I think

00:38:41.780 it treats us like people who actually live in the world, which is one of the things that I found

00:38:45.940 has been that when people, so I got a letter from this man, maybe two months in to when the podcast

00:38:52.860 first aired. And he had said that he was a committed atheist and that he had raised his children as

00:39:00.420 committed atheists. And that he read the Bible a couple of times, but he said, he started listening

00:39:05.300 to the podcast. And he said, I don't know what it was. Maybe it's the explanations. Maybe it's the

00:39:10.940 context that you're offering, but he said, I know I come to believe like I've come to, I can actually

00:39:16.920 profess faith in this God and in Jesus. And I'm like, this is incredible. But one, I think part

00:39:21.560 of that is, I think part of that is the Bible's written with the real world in mind. But oftentimes

00:39:29.360 we approach it as if the Bible is like a magical book or as if the Bible, again, is a children's

00:39:34.000 book and doesn't actually have anything to say to my brokenness or my broken family or, or the fact

00:39:40.160 that, okay, I thought I was called at one point, like, you know, to be belong to God, to be great.

00:39:46.500 But then I've got all these wounds. I've got all this failure, this string of failure in my history.

00:39:51.580 And you realize when you read the Bible, oh, that's, that's what all our history is. All of

00:39:56.180 our history is this promise, but then the string of failures, but in the middle of it is a God who

00:40:01.400 doesn't take back his promise. And I think that when people begin to approach that and realize

00:40:07.340 internalize it, then it's like, wait, this is actually about me. This, this isn't a foreign

00:40:12.540 book entirely, at least not the way I thought it would be.

00:40:15.460 No, you always end feeling a little bit more hopeful, a little bit better about yourself,

00:40:20.520 about your time here. That's one of the things I love about it is you learn a little bit

00:40:24.200 and just always feel a little better. I wouldn't say it's exactly the same as when you walk out of

00:40:27.640 mass on Sunday, but it's in that same general field. And we need a little hope in today's day and age,

00:40:34.040 given the news cycle, and especially as Catholics, I want to ask you about what we've seen since,

00:40:38.960 I guess we went back and looked, it wasn't just since the Dobbs decision was released that

00:40:42.640 overturned Roe versus Wade. It's actually been since the release of the draft of the Dobbs opinion,

00:40:49.980 which happened on May 2nd, about a month plus before the actual decision was released. Since then,

00:40:58.040 there have been criminal attacks on 63 pro-life organizations in 26 states in the District of

00:41:04.220 Columbia, including on June 7th, when arsonists firebombed and vandalized Compass Care Pregnancy

00:41:10.600 Services Medical Office in Buffalo. Also more than 30 Catholic churches attacked since the Dobbs leak.

00:41:16.660 This is so crazy. And in 17 of those, they made clear it was about abortion. What have you made

00:41:23.920 of this? And sadly, the media has ignored it for the most part.

00:41:28.840 Right. That's the part. That's the part that is shocking to me. If I step back, I get it. And in

00:41:38.060 the sense that if you feel under attack, then you want to lash out. So that part of it is, again,

00:41:45.880 obviously not condoning and not even saying like, this makes sense. But I can understand how someone,

00:41:50.820 if they're in a place where, wait a second, I've had this, what I consider to be a right to have an

00:41:55.240 abortion. And now it's being taken away, a right's being taken away from me. I get the idea that you'd

00:42:00.620 want to lash out. At the same time, I don't get the, I don't get the reality that you've, this might

00:42:07.080 be for many people. The first time they've heard of that is when you just mentioned it. And that part

00:42:12.120 of it makes no sense to me because here is clearly something that's clearly illegal. That's clearly

00:42:17.500 violent. That, that is what's going on in our world and in our country and our culture,

00:42:22.080 that that should be something that I would say is newsworthy and noteworthy. And to not report on

00:42:28.340 that is a, I think is, is there being dereliction of duty is, is I think what, what that would be

00:42:37.020 ultimately. You know, when I say, I understand it, I want to clarify. I don't know if you've seen

00:42:44.020 like the Louis CK has this bit about, about abortion and he, he kind of goes this line

00:42:50.760 where he says, you know, either I'll say it in my paraphrase, uh, either, either it's

00:42:58.780 no, it's just like going to the bathroom or it's a baby. Like easy. It's one of those

00:43:04.100 two. It's either just, no, it's a procedure, like going to the bed, no, no more, morally

00:43:07.480 significant than going to the bathroom or it's a baby. So he says, those people who are outside

00:43:12.480 of an abortion clinic who are praying or who are, you know, holding signs. Now, of course,

00:43:17.220 I think virtually every Christian, I know if you're Catholic Christian disavows, those people

00:43:20.520 who would resort to violence. That's absolutely. But, um, but those people are praying outside

00:43:24.580 abortion clinics would say like, you know, I don't want this to happen. Why? Because I believe it's

00:43:28.600 a baby. He has this bit about, you know, people are so like, why, why are they so, uh, intent

00:43:34.340 out there? Why are they so, so passionate about, out there? He says, because they believe

00:43:38.860 that it's a baby and you would expect them to be a little passionate and not just kind of like,

00:43:44.680 you know, whatever, whatever, do what you want. And I think there's something about that.

00:43:49.380 I can understand on the other side, if someone were to say, I believe that I have this right

00:43:54.340 and I believe this right is being stripped from me. So I'm going to react now, of course,

00:43:59.400 does it make sense? I mean, I don't want to be circular. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't,

00:44:03.740 it's because I think there's something, there's something about seeking to understand when you,

00:44:07.480 when we see this, what I don't want to say crazy behavior, when you see this behavior,

00:44:11.520 that is, I would say is clearly wrong. You'd say, but these are real people who are doing this

00:44:17.200 behavior. So that means I could do this. If like the circumstances were right. And I was convinced

00:44:23.260 of something that I know that whatever I've seen anyone do, that would be wrong, would be evil.

00:44:30.040 Well, I have the same kind of heart and I'm not maybe inclined toward that kind of thing,

00:44:36.580 but I always have to step back and say, okay, what would the circumstances be that would lead me to

00:44:41.500 do something like this? And unless, unless I really investigate myself, I will never be able to

00:44:45.520 talk with someone who would think that this would be the right thing.

00:44:49.420 That's the thing about you. You're, you're the least judgy priest I've ever heard. I mean,

00:44:53.060 I thought that judgment came with becoming a Catholic priest, that that's part of like the deal.

00:44:57.520 And you are the least judgy priest. You have, you know, your moral principles and you'll espouse

00:45:01.760 sort of what you think those principles are as taught by the Bible, as, as handed down by God.

00:45:07.460 But you are always looking for a way to be gracious to people, even in this circumstance we're talking

00:45:14.700 about right now. I mean, what, what's so crazy to me about the bombing of the pro-life clinics

00:45:17.660 is I, again, to, to say what you said, it's not that I understand the desire to go assassinate

00:45:24.680 Sam Alito. I don't, it's not like I support it, but at least logically I see the line. Okay. Like

00:45:31.840 he's the guy who was, it was a Kavanaugh, but Kavanaugh was part of the majority, but like a

00:45:36.340 pro-life clinic, they're probably not in favor of Roe versus Wade, but they're actually just helping

00:45:42.700 pregnant women who have chosen to have their babies. So what is even controversial about them?

00:45:47.560 You know, like who, what kind of sick, twisted person? It's not just a one-off, as I say, it's,

00:45:52.220 you know, 63 of these places got attacked in the past couple of months who like, it still makes no

00:45:57.180 sense. Right. Yeah, exactly. Because I, and I think that you, we can look at this and say

00:46:02.080 the, what has been the, I want to say demonization, cause that's very dramatic at the same time,

00:46:09.700 it might be the only appropriate word when it comes to people who are. So I would, I consider myself

00:46:16.260 pro-life shock. And I would say that, that what that means is, of course, I I'm pro the life of

00:46:23.600 the baby. I'm also pro the life of the mother. I'm also pro like post-birth help and assistance of

00:46:29.220 whatever we can do as a church. And we can do as Christians to help people who are helpless. I mean,

00:46:35.740 if you read the Bible, once again, it's who do you take care of? Okay. The poor, the widows,

00:46:40.260 orphans. Why? Because they need the help. And that's one of the things that is so important for us.

00:46:44.900 It's like, why do we help? Because someone needs it. And that's why I love the definition of mercy

00:46:50.180 being mercy is the love that we need the most and we deserve the least. And that's just,

00:46:57.240 that's for, for everybody. It's like, you don't qualify for my love. You just need it.

00:47:03.600 I like that. All right. Stand by. I'm going to squeeze in another commercial break and then

00:47:07.600 there's much more to discuss. Like I really want to get into yes, heaven, but also hell on the subject

00:47:13.780 of heaven. Do all good people go there? Is that, is that all you need to do? Just be a good person.

00:47:17.640 What does the Bible actually say? And what about end times? There are more and more people believing

00:47:22.120 we may be close. So we'll pick that up in just a couple of minutes. And don't forget folks,

00:47:26.940 you can find the Megan Kelly show live on Sirius XM triumph channel one 11 every weekday at noon East

00:47:32.680 in the full video show and clips by subscribing to our YouTube channel, youtube.com slash Megan Kelly.

00:47:38.940 If you prefer an audio podcast, follow and download on the Apple Spotify, Pandora Stitcher or wherever

00:47:43.920 you get your podcasts for free. Find our 325 shows there as well. All right, father, let me do me a

00:47:53.220 favor. Okay. Can I just ask a few dumb Catholic questions, stuff I've always wanted to know the

00:47:58.140 answers to, but I'm too embarrassed to ask my actual priest. I'd rather do it here in front of, you know,

00:48:03.340 many, many, many more people. Absolutely. There are no such thing as dumb questions,

00:48:08.320 only dumb answers. Okay. Well, this is going to show you what a lame again to use that Catholic.

00:48:13.860 I've been, um, quick answers. If you can, why did mass change? I grew up understanding, you know,

00:48:19.560 and also with you and now it's, and with your spirit, they changed all the language. If I didn't

00:48:23.920 go to mass for like 10 years, then I resumed again. I'm like, everything's changed.

00:48:27.100 Great question. So in the 1960s, they made mass in the vernacular, right? In the language of

00:48:33.780 whatever, wherever you were. And the translation they did was what you might call like a dynamic

00:48:38.560 equivalent translation. So it's kind of, kind of, sort of what the original language said.

00:48:43.580 And then they said, okay, that was the first translation or the update. And so maybe 10 years

00:48:47.880 ago, or maybe less than 10 years ago, they said, but actually a more accurate translation of the

00:48:52.540 original mass is this. And that's when they changed it. They said, we need to update these

00:48:57.120 things. They just, they kind of hastily translated in the sixties. And so they went through and took

00:49:02.540 their time and more accurately translated in the two thousands. Okay. I did not appreciate that,

00:49:08.340 but I'm, I'm, I got it now. I've got most of it. Consubstantial. Yes. When did, when did we start

00:49:13.520 putting our hands out to the side when we started saying the, our father, that's another thing. Like I,

00:49:17.780 I never put my hands out. We said the, our father now everybody does that.

00:49:20.220 Yep. Don't get me started, Megan. So we're not supposed to do that. That's a whole thing

00:49:25.060 that just kind of, it just, it was kind of invented in the last, I don't know, we'll say

00:49:29.180 10 to 40 years where, um, it's, that's actually, it's not, it's not a thing. Um, but some people

00:49:34.960 do it and it's, uh, it's actually, if you want to be like liturgically proper, meaning like proper

00:49:40.880 when it comes to like the mass and stuff is that, that you can do that when you pray, like not in the

00:49:45.780 mass, but in the mass, that's like the posture of the priest praise in and people bring in a

00:49:52.420 different posture. So, so if you don't like that, you are actually, your, your instinct is correct.

00:49:57.380 You already see you're more Catholic than you think. I feel better. All right. Now I've noticed

00:50:01.820 it. Um, like when we go to church over the summer at our, um, shore at the New Jersey shore, you know

00:50:08.720 how you put the kneeler down when the priest is doing the communion rights and getting communion

00:50:12.340 ready. Um, and you kneel and you stand and you, you know, we all just follow the old lady in the

00:50:16.820 front and do what she does, but except for there, except for there where they, everybody stands the

00:50:22.020 whole time. And so some of us who are, you know, we kneel, I can still kind of remember when to

00:50:27.560 kneel and when to stand, except nobody else is kneeling. They're all standing through the whole

00:50:30.780 thing. When did that happen? Why are people doing that? Once again, this is what they call like

00:50:35.900 liturgical accretion. So an accretion is like a barnacle on the side of the boat. Um, it's not part of

00:50:40.840 the boat. It's not supposed to be there, but it just, over time, people start doing this kind of

00:50:44.480 thing. And so there was a time again, following the 1960s where people said, well, rightly so,

00:50:50.760 uh, here as the people of God, we are actually, we share in what I call the kingdom priesthood,

00:50:55.920 meaning when you're baptized, you're anointed a priest, prophet, and King. So every baptized

00:51:00.780 Christian is anointed priest, prophet, and King. So you're meant to like participate in the mass by

00:51:05.560 like offering the sacrifice with the ministerial priest at the altar. And so they said, well, in that

00:51:10.220 case, we should be standing while he's doing his part. Cause we're showing that we're doing our

00:51:14.060 part too. Um, but that is not what the church asks us to do. The church asks that if we're in the

00:51:19.180 congregation that during from the technically from the Holy, Holy, Holy to the, uh, behold the

00:51:25.760 Lamb of God, we're supposed to be, or we're supposed to be kneeling. So you're once again, you were

00:51:30.600 right. Uh, this is the thing, Megan, you, you're already two for two. Amazing. There was an imprint

00:51:36.940 made that I didn't even know about. All right. Now, what about, um, when we show the sign of

00:51:41.780 the peace, when we do the peace sign to everybody and we used to actually shake hands and it was

00:51:45.600 nice. And then COVID came, we got rid of shaking hands. I got to admit, I'm surprised because I

00:51:51.060 don't generally like people. Um, but I miss shaking hands. I do. Are you think it's ever going to come

00:51:55.560 back? Yeah. Oh, we do it. Yeah. We started doing it again like a year and a half ago. So, uh,

00:52:00.980 I think it will. Is it up to each parish or what? Yeah. Usually the diocese has a policy. Um, so our,

00:52:07.220 our diocese, we said, yep, handshaking, whatever can happen, however long ago it was. And I think

00:52:12.380 they even might've said something along the lines of distribution from both a sacred body and the

00:52:17.500 precious blood, uh, as well. That was my next question. Okay. I was listening to you talk about

00:52:22.080 how to get into heaven, which is our next topic. And you listed four things that everybody must do.

00:52:27.740 And on the list was you have to take communion and you have to take the blood of Christ and the

00:52:31.980 body of Christ and the blood of Christ. And I know none of, no one's taken the blood of Christ in two

00:52:35.100 years now, thanks to COVID. It's not even offered. You can't get it even if you want it. So are we all

00:52:40.040 going to hell? Wow. I love it. Okay. You said quick answers. So let me, let me back up. Um, the four

00:52:47.540 things were, um, the scripture says very clearly, um, must be born of water and the spirit. So

00:52:52.460 baptism, that's John chapter three, John chapter six says, Jesus says, unless you eat my flesh and drink my

00:52:57.420 blood, you do not have eternal life. So be a Christ. Um, also, uh, if you profess with your

00:53:02.340 lips and believe with your heart, Jesus is Lord, you'll be saved. And then that's St. Paul. And

00:53:06.280 then Jesus also says, not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven,

00:53:09.640 but only those who do the will of my father in heaven. And, um, so those, those are four very

00:53:15.460 clear things in the new Testament for, um, they seem like conditions, right? Now, a couple of things,

00:53:21.140 a couple of caveats. One is the church has, has over the course of 2000 years has recognized that

00:53:28.100 of course, Jesus's words are completely true. So it's not like we're kind of equivocating on this,

00:53:33.240 but we also recognize that first Timothy says St. Paul's writing to Timothy. And he says,

00:53:38.960 we know that God wills all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth. So God doesn't just

00:53:44.220 like make some people and just discard them. Like we really care about you. Oh, you didn't,

00:53:47.920 you didn't become a Christian or you didn't get to, you know, even hear about Jesus too bad. No,

00:53:52.380 we believe that God wills all people to be saved. Um, we also know that at some point though,

00:53:57.800 there are some people who through no fault of their own don't know, or even through no fault of

00:54:03.680 their own, they may have heard, but never had the actual possibility of, um, actually saying yes

00:54:09.480 to this invitation. You know, we can think of people in far off countries. We can also think of

00:54:14.100 people in our own country, in our own town who've never even considered the reality of Jesus because

00:54:19.940 of any number of reasons. So what happens to them? The church has said that we believe that it is

00:54:26.620 possible. We hold out hope. This is the thing we hold out hope that those who through no fault of

00:54:31.480 their own do not know of Jesus or his church, but who by the promptings of grace, because we can only

00:54:36.520 get to heaven through grace, um, do the best they can essentially assisted by God. We hold out hope

00:54:42.860 that they too may enter heaven. And so there's this, the sense that the church says, okay,

00:54:48.020 here's what we know. Jesus said, these things are the kind of requirements for heaven. We also know

00:54:53.340 this, that there's people who had no chance of ever meeting these conditions. We also know God,

00:54:58.840 God's nature. We know God's goodness. We know that he wants everyone to come to knowledge of truth.

00:55:04.360 Therefore, we knowing that God is good and just, he will never punish a person or let them

00:55:10.140 experience a consequence that they didn't actually choose. That was no fault of their own because

00:55:13.340 he's good. Therefore, we hold out hope that in a way unbeknownst to us, uh, they too can be saved.

00:55:19.380 Does that make some sense? Mm-hmm. So it doesn't sound like he would hold the absence of blood of

00:55:24.580 Christ against us, given that we couldn't get it during COVID. Going back to that, that's the short

00:55:27.960 answer. We would say that, um, the full, the entirety of Jesus, body, blood, soul, and divinity is

00:55:33.080 contained in even one crumb of the Eucharist, even one drop of the precious blood. So you actually

00:55:38.260 technically are receiving body and blood, soul and divinity in every, every time we only receive

00:55:42.880 the body of Christ. It's the full Jesus. You'll appreciate this. I told the audience a couple

00:55:46.960 of weeks ago, we, we have a little guy, we have three kids and the little guy just made his first

00:55:50.840 communion last spring. And, uh, he's still very excited to go out there and get the communion.

00:55:55.420 And he came back to the pew afterward a couple of weeks ago and he goes, I really think it'd be

00:55:59.660 better with a little sea salt. Yes. That was, yeah, I do appreciate that very much.

00:56:07.620 I'm like, wait, why, why not? Why stop there? Why not just have like some guacamole or some hummus?

00:56:11.620 You can dip it in on your way back to the view. I actually, that was, that was a big thing for me

00:56:15.820 because after I had that encounter and went to confession, I talked about last hour. Um, the next

00:56:20.700 thing was I was reading a book that my mom had had in, in that, in the house. And one of the chapters

00:56:25.500 was on Holy communion was on the Eucharist. And I don't know if I was sick that day, but I did not

00:56:31.600 realize that what we realized is Jesus, the Eucharist is really Jesus. It's like, it's fully

00:56:37.340 him. And I was so blown away by this. And I remember going down to the kitchen where my siblings

00:56:42.340 were. I'm like, you guys, did you know that that's really Jesus? They're like, yeah. And they're

00:56:46.280 like, no, no, no, you guys, it's really him. They're like, we know like, no, you don't understand.

00:56:50.460 Like moron, we all went to Catholic school. You did too. What's, and I just, it blew me

00:56:55.400 away. So then next time I went to mass, I was, I remember being like, okay, you know,

00:56:59.260 body of Christ. Amen. I'm so excited. And then receive Holy communion. I was like, Hmm,

00:57:05.080 it's a little dry kind of a thing. And I was so disappointed because I thought,

00:57:09.020 I don't know what I thought. I think I thought that it would be like pop rocks. Like this is

00:57:13.460 really God, you know, kind of a thing. And, and it wasn't in, it took me a while to kind of process.

00:57:18.460 What is that? Where this, we really believe this. And yet here's my experience. And then I,

00:57:24.360 it was a moment of another moment of grace where I was thinking, I realized that when I would

00:57:30.060 imagine if I were living 2000 years ago and I was walking the streets of Nazareth, if I were to see

00:57:35.320 Jesus, I always just imagined that he would obviously be God. Like, you know, he'd be floating

00:57:39.300 six inches off the ground, light would be coming out of his hair. He says your name and you'd fall down.

00:57:44.540 But if, if I remember thinking like, wait a second, if I met Jesus and saw him, he wouldn't look like

00:57:52.000 God. He would just look like some guy, but he wasn't just some guy. He was fully God and fully

00:57:56.420 man and realized that's what the Eucharist is, is like, this is God, but he's hidden. And that just,

00:58:02.020 that, that just, that gave a lot of consolation to me because I was, I wanted some fireworks.

00:58:07.380 You know, that raises some questions I have about, I have about, about Jesus and, you know,

00:58:13.360 my Jewish friends who, one of my very good friends who is Jewish, I managed to drag her to

00:58:20.040 Christmas Eve mass one day and she was staying with me. We brought her. I'm like, it's beautiful.

00:58:24.720 You'll love it. Even though you might not totally believe everything you hear. And they were, of

00:58:29.060 course, they were talking about baby Jesus being born and so on and so forth. Anyway, she said,

00:58:35.020 it's not, it's not that we don't believe it's just, he was just a man. He was just a man. You know,

00:58:39.840 we don't see him as Christ. I said, I get it. I get it. But it does make me wonder because

00:58:44.660 Jesus was a historical figure. Obviously he actually did by anybody's estimation,

00:58:48.800 roamed the earth and his behavior was documented and it was written down and it's all laid out in

00:58:53.120 the new Testament. But my Jewish friends don't follow the new Testament. They kind of stop with

00:58:57.580 the old Testament. And, and I don't, I don't fully know how it goes from there. Do they reject the

00:59:03.140 stories about Christ, about Jesus Christ's behavior, about like the miracles he performed? Like how,

00:59:09.760 how does it get reconciled? Because he really was someone who was here. So it's, it's kind of

00:59:14.880 knowable. I mean, for a long time, there were people on the earth who had borne witness to what

00:59:19.000 he did. Right. Yeah, absolutely. And so I think every person it's, and this goes back to like the

00:59:23.740 heaven hell question too. Every person has their own story. They have the, we have our own biases.

00:59:28.560 We have our own like reasons why we either accept or reasons why we reject. And, and so I think what's

00:59:34.560 one fascinating thing is years ago, there was a rabbi just like, I can't remember his name. I wish I

00:59:39.940 could, um, this isn't a joke. There was a real rabbi. Um, and, and he was saying that the reason

00:59:46.260 why he reached, he, he, I think it was called the rabbi examines the case for Jesus. He wrote a book

00:59:51.000 and, uh, and he said, yeah, Jesus, he ticks all the boxes. He ticks all the boxes for the Messiah,

00:59:57.920 ticks all the boxes for even actually, maybe he is who he said he was, which is not just the Messiah,

01:00:01.600 but actually God. But then he got to this point. He said, but there's one thing Messiah was supposed

01:00:06.180 to do. And he was supposed to establish the kingdom. So to establish kingdom that would last

01:00:11.280 forever. And he said, I look around it. I don't see the kingdom in response to this. There was a

01:00:16.160 guy named Cardinal Ratzinger. It came Pope Benedict XVI who wrote a book called Jesus of Nazareth,

01:00:20.960 where he says, I mean, cause he respects this rabbi a lot. And he said, okay, here's, here's my

01:00:24.820 response. The response is he did establish a kingdom and that kingdom is the church. And it does exist

01:00:30.460 everywhere on every continent in every country around the world. And so there's that sense of like,

01:00:35.840 for this rabbi, he was like, yeah, Jesus ticks all of the boxes except this one. And I don't know,

01:00:40.340 I don't know if he's ever responded to Pope Benedict's book, but yeah, there's a lot of,

01:00:46.180 yeah, it's pretty compelling. Yeah. I don't, it's like, to me,

01:00:50.300 that's, what's comforting to me about Jesus is there were eyewitnesses to, you know, his time here

01:00:55.440 on earth. They wrote it down and it was, I don't, I guess you can't say it was uniformly accepted

01:01:00.520 based on the premise that I just offered, but it's one of the things that makes me believe,

01:01:05.640 you know, that there's a historical record of what he did when he was here because I'm a lawyer and

01:01:09.780 I'm a linear thinker and I like my facts and I like evidence. And then, you know, faith can be,

01:01:13.720 can play a role and must play a role, but I also like there to be a strong basis in fact.

01:01:19.020 Yeah. I think I would say without the, because Jesus is historical, Christianity is an historical

01:01:25.160 religion by its very nature. And, and even like you mentioned, there's a moment in St. Paul's

01:01:31.260 letter to the Corinthians where he basically says, he's writing to these people. These are people

01:01:34.820 in history, right? In the first century. And he's saying, okay, here's what happened. Jesus was

01:01:40.160 killed. Three days later, he rose. He appeared to, uh, Cephas. He appeared to the 12. He appeared to

01:01:45.900 me. He actually even says he appeared at one point to 500 people all at once. And he even says this

01:01:51.820 line. He says, um, some of whom have fallen asleep. Some have died, but most are still alive. And the

01:01:56.720 reason why he's saying this is because he's saying, go ask them, leave here in Corinth, just travel

01:02:01.640 down to the area of Jerusalem. You can talk to these people because they actually saw him.

01:02:06.980 Because the only reason we believe in the resurrection is because it was verified, right?

01:02:11.360 It was, there were witnesses who actually witnessed this and then were on to testify to what they had

01:02:16.380 actually seen. And that's one of the proofs. I think when I say proof, I don't mean like a

01:02:21.120 chemical proof, but I mean like a logical proof when it comes to the claim that Jesus is who he says he is.

01:02:27.900 We talked about having a little bit and how, how long gets in and it's, you know, we take

01:02:32.120 through it quickly, but the, the tough part is, you know, living, doing God's work on earth as a

01:02:39.440 human, not just being a good person, not just being kind to people who you like it. There's a

01:02:43.860 greater challenge and it's tougher than you think. I mean, I, the way you put it was, uh, I think you

01:02:49.820 were quoting the Bible, but it was like wide road to bad things and narrow, narrow path to

01:02:55.640 redemption. You can put it in the proper terms, but it's tougher than you'd think, which was kind

01:03:00.940 of disappointing, but also promising it because I'm still here and I can still work on it.

01:03:07.220 Yeah. Yeah. And also I would say too, I, I Catholics get a, get a kind of a bad rap for

01:03:13.060 thinking that we earn our way or work our way to heaven, which we don't believe. Um, all of this

01:03:17.380 is in the context of God wants to help us and God is helping us. It's called grace, right? And, um,

01:03:22.740 we can't even do these things without his help. And the great news is he is helping. He wants to

01:03:28.180 help. Again, first Timothy, God desires all men and women to be saved. He wants you. And that's one

01:03:34.640 of the big messages of Christianity. I think that even Jesus is saying, what's he say? He says,

01:03:39.040 do you think, do you think that he would ever forget you? Do you think that God would ever,

01:03:44.700 um, ignore your, I mean, if you're suffering, you're hurting, do you think that he doesn't care?

01:03:48.980 And Jesus goes on to say what he says, consider the lilies of the field, right? Consider the birds.

01:03:53.560 He says, not one of them falls to the ground without your father knowing about it,

01:03:56.940 about your father caring about it. And you are worth more than many birds. You're worth more

01:04:01.160 than many sparrows. There's something about the context of this whole thing that is,

01:04:05.100 okay, first of all, God wants you to exist. He loves you. He wants to help and he is helping.

01:04:12.760 Now, along those lines, here's this thing he's given a tool called baptism. So enter into that.

01:04:17.820 He's given this tool, Eucharist. If you do this, his will, his, his, um, is saying yes to him.

01:04:24.400 But that's the big key, right? Is, is that every one of us is free to say yes with God's help.

01:04:30.960 We're also free to say no. We're also free to be indifferent. And that's, that's the thing that

01:04:36.260 I just, I wrestle with so much, so much, even as someone who like fully, fully believes,

01:04:40.800 but we can live such a comfortable life sometimes that it's almost easier sometimes to be indifferent

01:04:46.100 to the big questions than it is to be like really preoccupied with the big questions and saying,

01:04:51.560 am I saying yes to God or not? I remember hearing the definition of a saint was, uh, a saint is

01:04:57.020 someone who says yes to God and then just never stops saying yes. And that seems doable to me.

01:05:02.580 Hmm. The opposite is, you know, hell. And I think I know many people who don't believe in hell,

01:05:10.120 though. I think they're in the minority because I think the polls show the majority of people do believe in

01:05:13.900 yes, heaven and actually hell as well. Can I ask you what your idea is of those two places? My,

01:05:19.280 my kids ask me all the time, what does heaven look like? Will we be together? Will we really,

01:05:24.400 will we get to see you? Will we get to meet our, our grandfathers, you know? And of course we all

01:05:28.920 take a shot at our ideas, but what's your idea of heaven? Yeah, no, that's it. See, I, uh, Dante,

01:05:35.780 right? He writes these three poems, the, uh, uh, sorry, Inferno, the Purgatorio and Paradiso,

01:05:42.540 right? The hell purgatory and heaven, uh, paradise. And everyone loves the Inferno and

01:05:48.920 Purgatorio, right? Everyone loves the Purgatory and hell because it's just a fascinating,

01:05:52.660 but the goal is to stay away from those. The goal is actually heaven. And yet how often do we

01:05:58.940 actually meditate on what would, what is heaven like? Cause we actually, God has given us

01:06:03.540 some insight into what heaven will be like. I think a lot of us imagine, um, that it's like

01:06:09.100 you float around on the cloud. And I remember, remember the far side by Gary Larson. So there

01:06:14.760 was one, one of my favorite, uh, little cartoons was, it was a split panel one and it was heaven

01:06:18.900 and hell. And it was, Hey, welcome to heaven. Here's your harp. And the one in hell was welcome

01:06:22.800 to hell. Here's your accordion. And it just always struck me as funny, but that's good. But heaven,

01:06:29.600 we picture it as just kind of floating around, right? Bouncing from cloud to cloud. Maybe you have your

01:06:34.300 harp. Maybe you're in a place of peace, which sounds great for maybe a day and a half or maybe

01:06:39.160 less than that. And so I don't know that we're passionate about what God has actually revealed

01:06:44.420 to us that heaven will be like. And here's a couple of things. One, God has revealed that, um,

01:06:51.200 we believe in this thing. We say it every Sunday in the Nicene Creed, we say, I believe in the

01:06:54.840 resurrection of the dead, the resurrection of the body that ultimately we get our bodies back.

01:06:59.040 And, and so in eternity, we, we have resurrected redeemed bodies and we actually know what those

01:07:04.700 will kind of sort of look like because we have pictures of, of Jesus. His resurrected body is

01:07:09.740 what it's, it's agile, right? It can go from Emmaus 12 miles away from Jerusalem to Jerusalem

01:07:15.240 in a moment. So that's what your body will be like. It can pass through walls. So that's what your body

01:07:19.920 will be like. It doesn't get sick or break down. That's what your body will be like. There's all these

01:07:24.040 like incredible power that comes from him. That's, that's what St. Paul says. He's the first fruits

01:07:28.800 of like what he has already. We will have, but those bodies then have to occupy space and time.

01:07:37.180 And so the idea behind this is, okay, if you love this planet, if you love the idea of

01:07:43.180 the solar system and the billions upon billions of galaxies that exist and the creative mind of God

01:07:49.400 that can create so much beauty, that's just this world. What St. Paul says is he says, but all creation

01:07:56.240 is groaning because it's, it too will be redeemed. What that means is those bodies, those resurrected

01:08:02.320 bodies that God wants us to have back in eternity, it will take a, occupy space, not just floating

01:08:08.760 around from cloud to cloud, but in a earth, on an earth, in a world or worlds that are just as real

01:08:15.680 and even maybe even more real than the one we're in now. And so that's even just a glimpse, right?

01:08:20.820 We have that, like, here's what we believe when we say that one phrase every Sunday, the resurrection

01:08:25.020 of the body, the resurrection of the dead. What we're saying is ultimately heaven will be,

01:08:30.660 I don't want to say earth on steroids, but like this, this amplified reality that I think

01:08:37.400 just like scripture says, we, I has not seen and here has not heard. We have not even,

01:08:42.000 has not so much as entered into the mind of man, what God has in store for us. Instead,

01:08:47.640 we think, oh, clouds, floating, robes, harps.

01:08:52.160 Right. That's not really what we want, what we aspire to exactly. And before we go to the dark

01:08:56.540 side, can I ask you, I had my friends on last Monday and it was a sad story, but ultimately

01:09:02.780 one of redemption and one of hope. They lost their 17 year old boy to myocarditis and it was sudden

01:09:10.680 and it was unexpected. They struggled for weeks and months to figure out what it actually was.

01:09:16.180 No signs of illness, just, just died suddenly. And, you know, events like that have many of us

01:09:22.300 asking why, why, why, why, why, why would God allow it? Why, why? And why when I, I pray every

01:09:27.680 week to God to look at over my children or I, I light a candle for somebody who's suffering,

01:09:31.620 you know, why do I do that? Because I believe there, there's the possibility of intervention.

01:09:35.820 There's the possibility of help. There's a possibility of steerage, you know, that,

01:09:39.640 that steering where you could design a good outcome. So there's that piece of it.

01:09:44.620 But the other piece of it is we talked to them about all the signs they've been getting from

01:09:47.820 Blake is the name of their boy. And I totally believe in the signs. I, having lost my father

01:09:53.860 at a young age, I believe if you ask for a sign, you get one. You could make the argument that

01:09:57.400 you're inventing them. I don't believe that. I, there's just too many in their case, in my case,

01:10:01.520 in so many cases of people who have lost someone and who believe in, in something more, you know,

01:10:05.700 in heaven. So do you believe in, in those signs? Are they coming from our lost loved ones?

01:10:10.820 Is that God's hand making it like, what is that? And, and then let's speak to the, you know,

01:10:17.060 what happened? Why, why do tragedies happen to begin with?

01:10:19.980 Man. Yeah. So there's two big questions. The big one is, is, is God, God or not? Right. And

01:10:27.080 is he good or not? Which is, it's a really big question we have to wrestle with. In fact,

01:10:31.820 I think St. Thomas Aquinas had said, um, the, the only real argument against God's existence

01:10:38.140 existence is that is the reality of suffering, the reality of evil, because if God is all good

01:10:42.620 and he's all powerful, then why is there suffering? He's either not all good, meaning he doesn't care

01:10:48.340 or he's not all powerful, meaning he can't do anything about it. And, um, unless there's another

01:10:52.720 option. And, uh, and I just think about, I go all the way back to the very beginning of the Bible,

01:10:58.120 all the way to the very end and realize, okay, so the very first, the very first sin, essentially,

01:11:03.920 well, no, okay. Eating an apple or eating the fruit. Right. And, and we think, well,

01:11:07.840 that's kind of silly. That was, you know, everything gets broken because we ate a piece

01:11:11.180 of fruit, but it wasn't that it was the big challenge was, do you trust him? Like, here's

01:11:16.940 this God who's made this world. He made it good. He made you good. He is good. He's revealed himself

01:11:20.420 as being good. And he's asked you, don't do this thing, but he's also given you freedom.

01:11:28.440 And in that freedom, um, we say, I'm going to do the thing. I know what you've said. I know what you

01:11:34.620 want. I don't care. I want what I want rather than trusting God. And this is, this is one of

01:11:39.660 those pieces that just is, um, that's what marks has marked our heart ever since then,

01:11:44.420 which is okay. Um, God, if you're good, then you want me to have the thing. And then, and if you

01:11:50.440 don't want me to have the thing, then you must be holding out on me. And so it's this, it's this

01:11:54.180 wound of trust. Um, beyond that is you think like, wait, wait, God, you could have just stopped

01:11:59.780 them. Why don't you just stop Adam and Eve from choosing this? Why don't you just stop me from

01:12:04.440 making that stupid decision? Why don't you just stop, you know, the illness from, from progressing.

01:12:08.900 And we recognize that God doesn't stop us from making choices. It doesn't stop us from us from

01:12:15.140 saying no, because for whatever reason, God has made it clear that it's more important

01:12:22.180 that we become people who are able to love than people who are simply safe.

01:12:30.160 And if I'm going to love, I, if I'm going to say yes, with all my heart, I have to also be able to

01:12:34.580 say no with all my heart. They're also, it's not really, it's also not really free. And so here's

01:12:40.080 God who doesn't want robots and he doesn't want a bunch of pets. He ultimately reveals, no, I want

01:12:45.900 sons and daughters who can live and love like me. And that means you have to be able to do it freely

01:12:52.920 and you also have to be able to risk something. And so, so we keep going back to this place of like,

01:12:57.500 about God, why don't you just take it away? Like take away the suffering, take away the pain.

01:13:01.200 And turns out that in the Christian revelation is God does something even more, even more profound

01:13:09.060 than removing the pain. He redeems the pain. Now that is one thing for you and I to talk about this

01:13:14.120 right now in the middle of a Tuesday, where it's just like, we might be free of some serious

01:13:18.200 suffering. It's a whole nother thing to talk with your friends who are in the midst of grief,

01:13:22.280 but that sense of like, what do you mean redeem the pain? Well, what is the central image of

01:13:27.800 Christianity? It is a cross. And on that cross is a body. And it's not just the body of a human being.

01:13:35.540 It's the body of God himself who took on a human body, who took on human nature. And in that body,

01:13:42.120 what did he do? He lived and he suffered. He let death overwhelm him. He let the feeling of

01:13:47.760 abandonment overwhelm him. He let it crush him. He actually let it kill him. And then he rose from

01:13:53.680 the dead. And so there's no way, I mean, even though our hearts can be breaking and our hearts

01:13:57.880 do break still, they still break up obviously. But even though that happens, one of the things we

01:14:04.880 recognize is we can never say, God, you have no idea what I'm going through. We can never say that.

01:14:09.720 We can never say, God, you have no idea what it feels like to fill in the blank because here's

01:14:14.920 God who's entered into the worst that human beings can go through. Abandonment, betrayal,

01:14:20.920 and suffering and death. And he said, I still choose you. And if he did it for any reason,

01:14:28.740 I think for redemption, obviously, but he also did it so that we could trust him.

01:14:33.020 And that, and that's the thing. It's like, I just keep coming back to this place of in that place

01:14:39.020 of grief. It's so hard to say what you would do, but right now I can say the reason why what God has

01:14:48.640 done with suffering is he's entered into it. So I can, I can say, God, when in my suffering,

01:14:54.280 when I'm on the cross, I know that I'm not by myself. You're with me.

01:14:58.100 Hmm. It's so hard to keep reminding yourself of that when tragedies come, you know, and it's,

01:15:05.400 it's one of the reasons why, like I was saying, signs mean so much. It's like, because we can't,

01:15:11.640 we can't see God. We can't see heaven. We can't see Jesus. And so it's like, well, we can, we can

01:15:16.600 see pictures, but, um, you know, it just seems like a reminder. It seems like a reach out. It just

01:15:21.020 seems like a tap on the shoulder. It seems like a warm embrace.

01:15:23.680 Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so that's why I, sorry to go back to that, that, that point, I, yeah,

01:15:28.780 they're kind of like winks, you know, my colleague used to tap on the shoulder or embrace or a wink

01:15:32.320 from heaven, that sense of, um, those little reminders that I know this is all you see,

01:15:38.880 but there's more, um, I, that this life is good, but broken, but there's more to this life than just

01:15:44.600 this life. And yeah, so I, I mean, you know, people talk about ghosts or people talk about, you know,

01:15:50.180 again, like you mentioned your father or, or, um, this young man, Blake, and, uh, I'm like,

01:15:57.020 yeah, that makes sense. Why? Cause we, we assert that they're not dead. Like we assert that yes,

01:16:01.940 here, their life on earth is over, but we know that they still exist. Like we know that they're

01:16:07.260 still alive. We know that their spirit, their soul is alive. And so if we're going to assert that,

01:16:13.020 then we also have to be open to the reality that, yeah, that, and there can be times when God allows,

01:16:20.060 um, those people to reach out in some way, shape or form.

01:16:24.180 Wow. This is so, it's so good to hear. Frankly, it's just so good to hear. There is of course a

01:16:30.620 dark side and it's not just hell. Uh, father Mike is warning against the Ouija board. I'm dying to talk

01:16:37.620 to you about this. Um, that's as good a tease as we're going to get. I'll pause it there. We're going to

01:16:42.320 pick it up there right after this break. Uh, before we go to break though, we were bringing

01:16:45.920 you a memorable moment from February of this year, episode two, seven, zero Dakota Meyer joined by

01:16:55.080 Rob O'Neill, two genuine American heroes. And Dakota told us the hilarious story of the time he

01:17:02.660 received, Oh, the medal of honor at the white house while intoxicated.

01:17:07.520 The white house ran out of beer. Uh, they, they ran out of beer at the ceremony and they had to

01:17:14.480 find a way to get more in, which it's not just going down to the seven 11 on the corner.

01:17:19.780 That was very risky by you. Speaking of your big risks. I mean, can you imagine if you would like

01:17:23.900 thrown up in the middle of the medal of honor ceremony would have been awful.

01:17:27.120 You know, sometimes I don't really think about those things. Uh, you know, I, uh, but I'll never

01:17:34.420 forget. I didn't realize how, so everybody went in to sit down. I didn't realize how drunk I was

01:17:39.480 until, you know, me, the president and, uh, you know, Michelle, we walked in after everybody was

01:17:47.960 in there together. And I'll remember walking in and I'm like, hi, I'm wasted.

01:17:52.700 It was so fun talking to those guys. Another great episode. Check out those archives. I think

01:17:59.640 you'll enjoy it.

01:18:03.260 I would see things behind the curtain that the public had no clue about. And I, I was shocked

01:18:16.740 that the general public does not have any clue of how certain things go now. People's business is

01:18:27.680 people's business, but what I can't, what would drive me nuts is like, you know, people magazine

01:18:34.080 couple of the year. And you're like, they're not a couple. He doesn't even like women. What do you,

01:18:39.260 what, what a sham? What, what a, Oh, you know, this, this one is just, you would see things,

01:18:47.440 certain people would come in and they'd be, it was disturbing. And, um, if it was my brother

01:18:55.300 or a friend of mine with hat, with some of the people I'd go, are you, is there something wrong

01:19:00.340 with you? Like there's some really disturbing wrong with you, but no one would say anything

01:19:05.120 because, Oh, well, you know, this one's a star. So good. So good. That was comedian Jim Brewer

01:19:11.940 back in November of last year and episode two Oh two in an interview. So compelling. It was one

01:19:17.340 of the few we had to keep going. Even after we were off the air at Sirius XM, we just had to,

01:19:22.280 we kept talking for another 30 minutes. Every single one of them is worth your time. You can find it on

01:19:26.760 all podcast platforms and YouTube as well. This is one of those two. I could talk to father Mike

01:19:32.060 Schmidt's all day long. We were just saying that during the break father. And we were also

01:19:36.820 questioning your assertion that no one's ever come on to you. I think three of the women on this show

01:19:42.180 are, are ready to do it as before you sign off. Okay. But I digress. All right, let's go back to hell.

01:19:51.340 Um, none of us wants to go there. We know it's paved with the road. Uh, the road is paved with good

01:19:55.860 intentions, but it may also be paved with your introduction of demons and evil spirits into your

01:20:04.020 life. And this is easier to do than the average Joe or Jane may realize. Hence the Ouija board

01:20:12.400 discussion. What is it? I have one of these. I bought it last Halloween. I've never opened it.

01:20:17.840 It's still got the saran wrap, you know, the plastic wrap around it. Right. And I think you're

01:20:21.640 going to tell me not to do it. I, you see, you keep your, you're right on every single time you

01:20:27.240 bring up, like, I'm not sure if I'm a good Catholic. I don't know stuff, you know, all this

01:20:30.300 stuff. This is great. You know exactly what I was going to say. So yeah, it's really fascinating.

01:20:35.220 Now, obviously, um, I am not someone who would say that, you know, a demon looks around every corner

01:20:40.160 or in every thing that people could say I was going to bring up. I think at this weekend, I was,

01:20:45.600 I was wondering, am I going to bring up Harry Potter when I, you know, preaching? Cause I,

01:20:49.200 I keep reading the books. They're just really well-written and a great story. So I'm not one

01:20:54.300 of those people who says like everything that looks like, you know, it could be demonic is

01:20:59.860 at the same time. The, the motivation behind the Ouija board is actually something where

01:21:06.040 I'm trying to contact spirits. Um, and someone could say, well, I'm trying to contact nice spirits

01:21:12.880 or good spirits. And the unfortunate thing we know about is that yes, when God created angels,

01:21:17.840 he created angels. They're good. They're beautiful. They're, they're in harmony with

01:21:21.000 him. But also we know that, um, a number of those said no to God. And so like we mentioned

01:21:27.760 in the prayer to Semi, Michael, the archangel, they prowl about the world, seeking the ruin

01:21:31.240 of souls. And there is an element where there's a danger. Now I, so a person who's reasonable

01:21:38.060 would say, but I'm just playing. And I would say, I completely understand that. And then I would

01:21:44.680 say at the same time, at the same time, um, you remember the movie, the exorcist, of course.

01:21:50.900 Yeah. How can you forget it? So that story is based off of two true stories. And, um, one

01:21:57.860 of the true stories is I believe about, if I can get the details, right. It's about a young

01:22:01.940 man who was at, you know, kind of like a birthday party, some kind of celebration of some sort

01:22:05.660 with kids. And they just busted out the Ouija board and just played for fun. But that was

01:22:10.840 an entry point, um, for what ultimately became a possession. And, uh, so I'm now, I'm no expert

01:22:17.880 when it comes to exorcism. I'm no expert when it comes to possession, but when you hear stories

01:22:22.080 like that enough, you realize, okay, there's some danger. Maybe I don't play with it.

01:22:27.300 Don't go there. So do you believe that there is a, that there is a hell and what, what would

01:22:32.900 get you there? You know, if we understand how you get into heaven now, but what would get

01:22:36.540 you into hell as opposed to just being resigned to purgatory? Yeah, that's a great question. So

01:22:41.280 purgatory is the doorway to heaven. So keep that in mind. If you get to purgatory, one

01:22:45.300 more step, you're in heaven. And that's a whole nother discussion that I think is worth

01:22:48.440 having, but, but, um, hell. So one of the things we have to recognize is that Jesus, the

01:22:55.400 one who loves us, the one who died for us, the one who, um, we know is patient with us and

01:22:59.760 compassionate. He is mercy himself. Jesus talks about hell more than any other figure in

01:23:04.800 the Bible. And so we have to understand that this is not just something that we've made

01:23:08.800 up. It's not something that, um, is like some Christians believe this, this, if we are paying

01:23:14.080 attention to Jesus and, and taking his, him at his word, then we realize that it is, um,

01:23:19.600 possible for us to choose. He's made it possible for us to choose God, which is awesome, but it

01:23:25.320 also is possible for us to say, no, I'd rather not. And so a couple of things that we, that

01:23:30.040 we, I mean, I love my buddy C.S. Lewis and C.S. Lewis in his book, mere Christianity, as

01:23:34.820 well as in the book, the screw type letters. Have you ever read either of those, either

01:23:37.800 of those books? I read mere Christianity after Spencer

01:23:40.040 Klavan came on and was singing its praises. It's amazing. I, it was, it was life-changing.

01:23:45.720 I learned so much. And of course his writing is just spectacular anyway. Oh, it is so good.

01:23:50.500 Um, he's so clear. And that's one of the things I love to, he takes complex ideas and he, he

01:23:57.000 can make them completely accessible to a normal human being like us. And, um, so C.S. Lewis talks

01:24:03.840 about this and he says, okay, well, based on what we know about God and based on what we know about

01:24:08.720 sin is okay. So my definition of sin is always, okay. It's never an accident because I can't sin

01:24:15.620 accidentally. It's, it's, it's always a choice. Um, it's never a mistake. It's something I know I

01:24:20.240 actually decided to do this. So sin, I would define it like this. It's when we say, God, I know what

01:24:26.340 you want. I don't care. I want what I want. And so it doesn't have to mean like someone got hurt.

01:24:32.020 It doesn't have to mean like it was really violent or really nasty. It can simply be, yeah, no, no,

01:24:36.280 God, I know what you want. I just want what I want. And so you go all the way back to that,

01:24:42.100 that first sin, you know, in Genesis chapter three, they were, it was very clear. They knew exactly

01:24:47.300 what God wanted to. Hey, just, you want to stay in relationship with me? Just don't eat this piece

01:24:50.620 of fruit. And that's why it can, that summarizes for, for all of us. Like that is what happens

01:24:55.660 every single time that I sin ultimate. I might not think of it this way, but ultimately what I'm

01:25:00.340 doing is I'm saying, God, I know what you want. I just don't care. I want what I want because of

01:25:06.600 that, because God has given us freedom. He actually gives us the it's radical freedom. He gives us the

01:25:13.920 capacity to get what we've chosen. And if I choose anything other than God, then I get it. And that sense

01:25:22.360 of, or if I say this, God, I don't choose you. I choose something else. I choose myself. I choose

01:25:26.860 whatever. Um, then we have the freedom that he actually respects our decisions so fully that he's

01:25:33.700 okay. I mean, again, not like he's like, okay, fine. As if he's impassionate or impartial to this,

01:25:39.040 because he loves us. He's, he's established that, but that's why C.S. Lewis says that hell is a door

01:25:44.380 locked from the inside that we sometimes imagine. Like here's, we send before the judgment seat of

01:25:50.460 God, you know, those, some of those phrases and like, as if God's saying, go to hell. And we're

01:25:54.760 saying, no, please not that C.S. Lewis reframes that. And I really, I think he reframes it according

01:26:00.720 to the Christian tradition. And he says that you'd be God. Essentially he could be begging for us.

01:26:06.360 Just say yes to me. Just let that lay down your pride, lay down whatever it is that's holding

01:26:10.340 you back from me and come into my presence. And we're like, no, I'd rather not. And we see this,

01:26:15.200 right. And he describes this. We've seen this in ourselves as children. We've seen this in other

01:26:20.120 children who would rather lock themselves in the room rather than just say they're sorry and come

01:26:25.180 down and have dinner. That sense of like, but that, but being fixed in that place of saying,

01:26:30.080 I'd rather be miserable. That doesn't seem like something that could get you into hell.

01:26:33.680 Like I think about the people who don't go to confession like me. I mean, I've gone,

01:26:37.880 but I had a very negative confessional experience. Um, my, my oldest child is 12 and on his first

01:26:44.320 communion, you know, they, the kids have to go to their first confession first. And, um,

01:26:48.700 I've told this story before. It's a crazy story, not to you, but to most people. Um, I sat,

01:26:53.340 it was face to face. Now here was my mistake, father. I was with a Franciscan. I later found out

01:26:59.080 I should have been with a Jesuit, but I sat in there and he asked me about my history. I had been 10

01:27:04.360 years since my last confession. And I told him I had been married once and got a divorce and I

01:27:08.800 didn't have an annulment and that I got remarried. Now I am the mother of three children and they're

01:27:13.180 raising them to be Catholic. And that's why we're here for my son's first communion. So he's chatting

01:27:18.320 and chatting, chatting, going on. I'm finally, I'm kind of like father, you got to kind of wrap it up.

01:27:22.360 Can I have my penance? Like how many our fathers, how many hair male hair men are going to get out of

01:27:25.700 here? And he says, well, it's complicated. Like, what do you mean? He's like, well,

01:27:30.780 you got married in a Catholic church. You didn't get an annulment. And so technically the church

01:27:36.860 views you as living in sin and I can't absolve you because you didn't get an annulment and you

01:27:45.400 don't, don't plan on leaving your husband. Right. I'm like, right. And he said, well, I said,

01:27:51.340 well, what are my options? And he said, well, a lot of people choose to live as brother and sister

01:27:58.860 in this relationship, which is just absurd. I'm like, okay, so you want me to ruin a good marriage

01:28:06.200 where we have a lovely, you know, and faith driven marriage and, you know, family. You want me to

01:28:13.640 ruin it by treating him as my brother, which I do still use on Doug Sunday mornings or Saturday

01:28:18.640 mornings. He rolls over. I'm too tired. My brother. Anyway, the long story to say, he kicked me out

01:28:26.480 without absolving me. I'm like, can't we just table the big sin over here? Just give me the

01:28:29.840 absolution for the, all the others. It's like, no, that's not how it works. Anyway, I remain

01:28:34.420 unabsolved. So I'm upset about that. So I'm a sinner. So if I die tomorrow, according to this guy,

01:28:40.100 I'm going to hell and maybe according to you, I'm not sure. I don't believe it.

01:28:44.880 Right. No, that makes sense. I mean, it makes sense that that would be like a horrible,

01:28:48.520 there are times where, okay, to back up, I would say that to have that experience is just the worst

01:28:58.080 because here you are going in like, okay, I'm approaching the throne of mercy, right? I'm

01:29:01.740 approaching the seat of mercy. I'm approaching this God who I've been told, and I do believe

01:29:05.700 that he loves me and he loves me in my brokenness. A hundred percent. Absolutely. But then to have that

01:29:11.360 heartbreak, I really do mean it like this heartbreak. I did cry. Yeah. I can't, I can't imagine.

01:29:16.400 I can't imagine how hard it would be, um, for anybody. Um, but to be able to say, okay,

01:29:22.820 here I am. And cause, because I, I imagine Megan, that there's an element to, of just,

01:29:28.720 I feel rejected. Um, and even the fact that you are still saying, no, but I'm still raising my kids

01:29:35.000 Catholic. I'm still going to mass. I'm still, you know, striving. I'm still doing my best.

01:29:40.480 That's incredible. And I would say that that is, that is a sign of what we would call like lively

01:29:45.940 faith. That's a sign of a faith. That's alive. Is that, okay. Because I had this bad experience

01:29:50.760 and because, okay, I was told some things that I really am wrestling with right now,

01:29:54.860 but I'm still coming back. I cannot commend you enough because that is, that's remarkable.

01:30:01.740 I can't imagine going through the heartbreak and then still saying, well, here we are on Sunday,

01:30:06.360 you know, um, but I imagine it. I, yeah, I can't imagine how much it must have pierced broken

01:30:11.640 your heart. Um, the other option essentially would be, maybe you mentioned this would be to apply

01:30:18.040 for a declaration of nullity for that first marriage. Um, I have looked into that. It is

01:30:23.520 the most intrusive document. I don't know if you've looked at these things, but it's like,

01:30:26.960 how many times did you in your former partner have said, it was like, it was so much information.

01:30:31.560 I'm like, Oh my God, I'm not giving all this information to a total stranger.

01:30:34.560 Yeah. And that makes sense too, because they're on the, on the flip side, while it is very, uh,

01:30:39.740 every person who participates in it has to go through like a really big, uh, kind of examination

01:30:44.140 of what was our married life like that in that first marriage, I've spoken with a lot of couples

01:30:49.820 who have, you know, individuals who have gone through the process and said, that was more healing

01:30:54.920 than I thought it would be because that's part of what the annulment process is meant to be.

01:30:59.280 It's meant to say, okay, let me go back. And as painful as it, as it could be, I mean,

01:31:03.840 go back there and like, let's walk through this story again. Can I just get a Jesuit

01:31:07.600 to absolve me? They're the easygoing priests.

01:31:13.620 Cause then the, ultimately the, the story would be this, the story is, um,

01:31:20.060 the Lord, here's what I would say. And this is not to, uh, here's what I know about you, Megan.

01:31:28.280 I know, I know that God loves you very much.

01:31:33.380 I know that I know that he's given you the gift of faith.

01:31:41.900 And I know you have a story. We all have stories. That's the thing. We all have a history,

01:31:45.840 but here's what I know. The God is a part of that story and your story isn't over yet.

01:31:51.840 There is this obstacle, but you have an incredible marriage now and you credible kids. And that is

01:31:59.840 real. And that's part of the story. That's again, it's not like saying it's not part of the story.

01:32:03.200 It's a hundred percent part of the story. And the invitation is not again, to have a marriage where

01:32:09.260 your brother and sister, I think that part of that story would be able to say, okay, can I,

01:32:13.980 can I apply for this declaration of nullity? Can I address this issue of this wound? I'm going to

01:32:20.360 imagine that the divorce was a wounding thing too. I can't imagine having so much hope in that first

01:32:25.620 marriage when it starts out. And then how am I having so much heartbreak when it ended?

01:32:30.200 But I do believe this. I do believe that the God who has, he has loved you, he still loves you.

01:32:34.880 And the one who you have faith in right now, I don't think this is the end of your story. I think

01:32:39.420 this would be a really good next step. Um, at the same time, I know that that's not, um,

01:32:46.000 it's not quick. It's not easy, but here's where I don't jump. Um,

01:32:50.600 we know that there are objective things for all of us that like, okay, this is a no,

01:32:57.500 you have to always not do this. Here's a yes. You have to always do this. And we fail at that,

01:33:02.640 but I can never jump and say, well, Jack, you did X. Therefore you're going to hell

01:33:08.600 because I don't know the story. I only know the surface of the story.

01:33:12.940 And I hardly even know that I know some details you just shared with me. Um, so I know there's

01:33:19.940 some, okay, objectively, here's what, here's where we're at right now. But also that's one of the

01:33:26.260 reasons why Jesus makes it very, very clear. He says, do not judge lest you be judged. You cannot

01:33:30.940 condemn lest you be condemned. Um, because you never, we never know someone's full story.

01:33:36.260 And I would say that, um, again, going back to this place and I just, I really mean this,

01:33:42.600 Megan, your story isn't over. And I believe that God wants to continue blessing you and your family.

01:33:49.100 And I think maybe one of, maybe one of those ways you can continue blessing you and your family is

01:33:53.460 that next step of the declaration of nullity. And again, I don't mean to be intrusive right now.

01:33:57.480 I'm so sorry that I'm like, I feel like I'm preaching, but I just, I, you brought it up. So

01:34:03.800 I feel, I feel like he blessed me today with this interview and just getting to meet you and hear

01:34:10.960 your thoughts and your explanations and Abby get those forms and you start filling them out. You

01:34:15.020 know what happened in the first marriage. Father Mike, thank you so much. Would you please come

01:34:21.620 back? I would love to continue the conversation. I would love to. I would love to. Awesome. All right.

01:34:27.380 And we'll make sure we'll promote the, uh, the catechism in a year. It hasn't yet launched,

01:34:32.420 but it's going too soon. All the best to you and to be continued. Really, really enjoyed that. I hope

01:34:38.740 you did as well. I think it's for everybody. Don't have to be Catholic to enjoy that. Just, you know,

01:34:42.300 his thoughts on the afterlife and so on. The vast majority of people do believe. Tomorrow we'll be

01:34:47.480 joined by somebody who left his quote religion altogether. And that is Mike Rinder, who was a

01:34:53.140 Scientologist and he was high up in Scientology. He was part of Sea Org.

01:34:57.380 Just like the grand poobah section of Scientology. He's out with a new book called A Billion Years.

01:35:02.820 It's about his life in the church, why he left. He dishes on celebrities like Tom Cruise, John

01:35:07.520 Travolta, and much, much more. Don't miss that tomorrow. See you then. Thanks for listening to

01:35:13.420 The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - September 27, 2022

The Value of Having Faith, Heaven and Hell, and Believing in Signs, with Father Mike Schmitz ｜ EP. 399

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