The Megyn Kelly Show - Tragedy in Texas： Another Deadly School Shooting, with Charles C.W. Cooke and Neil Heslin ｜ Ep. 329

00:00:00.480 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:11.280 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:15.220 Such a sad day. I know you're feeling it too.

00:00:19.280 It's happened again.

00:00:21.580 It's hard to believe it's happened again.

00:00:24.740 There's something different when it happens to children, when it happens inside of a school.

00:00:33.560 It's just every time you think, this has to be the last time.

00:00:37.800 We can't be living in this inhumane of a society, and yet you get proven wrong.

00:00:46.900 19 innocent elementary school children, elementary school children, and two teachers gunned down

00:00:53.240 while trying to learn.

00:00:56.280 Probably sitting there getting excited for the end of the year.

00:00:59.120 Summer's so close you can taste it.

00:01:01.280 There's an extra happy atmosphere inside of school these days, you know, amongst the teachers

00:01:07.020 and the students, right?

00:01:08.300 Can't you see it when you drop your own kids off right now?

00:01:11.580 And they went into their elementary school, just outside of San Antonio, Texas, and they

00:01:17.580 were murdered. 19 kids at a school in a truly evil attack, along with two teachers.

00:01:23.780 Evil. There's no other word for it.

00:01:26.440 It's a story that's become all too familiar in America.

00:01:29.100 A male, teenaged, loner, reportedly bullied from a troubled family, absentee mom, absentee

00:01:36.980 dad, posts disturbing content online, warning signs to those paying attention.

00:01:43.780 But who was, who was in this case, who then goes on to kill in cold blood, mercilessly.

00:01:50.900 Today, we're learning more disturbing details about this 18-year-old killer and how he managed

00:01:55.460 to obtain his guns.

00:01:57.440 We will not be naming him, consistent with my own longstanding policy, since studies have

00:02:02.540 shown that mass shooters typically desire infamy, and we declined to help, and others

00:02:07.020 in the media would do well to pay attention to that.

00:02:09.660 But before we get to all that, more on the lives taken yesterday in Texas.

00:02:13.840 It's almost too much to bear.

00:02:15.360 But what kind of a society are we if we brush past the innocent children who were killed

00:02:21.420 in an effort to go right to policy?

00:02:23.780 It makes it too easy for us, those of us who are still here, those of us who need to take

00:02:30.140 a hard look at what leads to something like this.

00:02:34.440 These little children were casualties in whatever societal sickness this is, and they deserve to

00:02:40.740 be remembered.

00:02:41.340 Like fourth grader Ameri Jo Garza.

00:02:46.000 Her grandmother spoke to the Daily Beast.

00:02:48.340 She appears to have spoken with a classmate of Ameri's, and says the gunman walked into

00:02:53.340 the classroom and told the children, you're going to die.

00:02:57.660 It's horrific.

00:02:59.600 This little girl did what she had likely been taught to do by the adults who loved her.

00:03:04.040 She called 911 for help, and the gunman shot her, as she did.

00:03:10.080 Her best friend was, oh, look at this little girl. 1.00

00:03:14.060 Her best friend was sitting next to Ameri and wound up covered in her blood.

00:03:18.600 Also among the dead, 10-year-old McKenna Elrod, a family friend posted online, sweet McKenna,

00:03:25.860 look at her, with her bright red headband, her sassy smile. 0.97

00:03:32.280 She looks like she knows something, doesn't she?

00:03:34.840 Her friend posted, sweet McKenna, rest in paradise.

00:03:37.840 My heart is shattered as my daughter loved her so much.

00:03:40.680 It's not just the family members who grieve.

00:03:43.160 It's everyone in the town, in the community, the friends, the family, the church members,

00:03:47.260 and now all of us.

00:03:49.940 Another family's burden, that much more horrific, because they are now being forced to bury

00:03:54.520 two children.

00:03:56.260 One is 10-year-old Annabelle Guadalupe Rodriguez.

00:03:59.760 Her desperate father spent much of the day searching for her until the worst news of his

00:04:03.660 life was confirmed.

00:04:05.340 Her cousin was also killed, but has not yet been named.

00:04:08.220 10-year-old Xavier Javier Lopez also died.

00:04:13.520 He's being remembered as a child who was bubbly and loved to dance with his brothers and his

00:04:18.500 mom.

00:04:19.940 8-year-old Isaiah Garcia's grandfather says he was the sweetest little boy he had ever

00:04:25.200 known.

00:04:26.180 They last saw each other over spring break and played football.

00:04:29.620 His grandfather says he could really catch the ball well.

00:04:33.660 And then there are the teachers.

00:04:35.220 Ava Morales, one of the first victims identified, a loving mother and wife who is said to have

00:04:41.880 been someone who lived life to the fullest.

00:04:44.620 Absolutely beautiful outside in this shot in front of the mountains, looking so happy.

00:04:50.500 And Irma Garcia, a mother of four.

00:04:53.100 She'd been nominated for Teacher of the Year not long ago.

00:04:56.960 There are more.

00:04:58.680 This is just a snapshot of some of the lives lost.

00:05:01.100 As the devastated community gathered, the Archbishop of San Antonio could be seen comforting families

00:05:07.320 outside the Civic Center.

00:05:09.120 One man there was heard sobbing into his phone.

00:05:12.080 She's gone.

00:05:14.260 Meanwhile, in Washington, the flag at the U.S. Capitol building was lowered in honor of

00:05:18.520 those killed.

00:05:20.240 We now know that the gunman was finally stopped by a Border Patrol agent who was nearby when the

00:05:25.720 shooting broke out.

00:05:26.460 We do not yet know the identity of that agent, but we understand he was injured in the fight.

00:05:32.440 We've also learned more about the events leading up to the attack and that police were on the

00:05:37.100 scene before the killer barricaded himself in a classroom.

00:05:41.100 Listen.

00:05:41.220 So what we do know is that the shooter was involved in a domestic disturbance with his

00:05:48.740 grandmother prior to the shooting at the school.

00:05:50.840 He did shoot his grandmother at that point.

00:05:52.920 He then fled in a vehicle and was in close proximity near the school where we got calls.

00:05:58.320 Local law enforcement at the Uvalde Police Department received a call of a crashed vehicle

00:06:03.280 and an individual armed with a weapon making his way into the school.

00:06:07.860 So at that point, we had local law enforcement, school officers, as well as state troopers

00:06:12.480 who were first on scene and were able to hear the actual gunshots inside the classroom.

00:06:18.260 They tried to make entry into the building.

00:06:20.140 They were met with gunfire by the suspect, by the shooter.

00:06:23.400 Some of those officers were shot.

00:06:25.260 So at that point, they began breaking windows around the school, trying to evacuate children,

00:06:29.980 teachers, anybody they could, trying to get them out of that building, out of that school.

00:06:33.500 What we do know at that point, the shooter was able to make entry into a classroom,

00:06:38.320 barricaded himself inside that classroom, and again, just began shooting numerous children

00:06:43.540 and teachers that were in that classroom, just began shooting anyone that was in his way.

00:06:47.860 At that point, we had a tactical law enforcement team arrive, made up of multiple federal officers,

00:06:53.320 local officers, as well as state troopers that were able to make forcible entry into that classroom.

00:06:58.260 They were met with gunfire as well, but they were able to shoot and kill that suspect.

00:07:02.260 As you just heard, the killer also shot his own grandmother prior to the attack on the school.

00:07:08.440 We are told, as of this hour, she is in critical condition.

00:07:12.520 That information eerily reminiscent of another mind-boggling school shooting, Newtown.

00:07:18.740 In that attack nearly 10 years ago, the gunman shot and killed his own mother

00:07:23.880 before going on to murder 20 six- and seven-year-olds at Sandy Hook Elementary and another six adults.

00:07:33.300 A little later in this show, we will be joined by Neil Heslin,

00:07:37.240 a father who lost his only child, Jesse, that day,

00:07:40.440 on what these parents are going through and how we can possibly help them.

00:07:44.040 But we begin today with Charles C.W. Cook, senior writer at National Review.

00:07:53.960 Charles, welcome back to the show.

00:07:56.500 It's truly almost too much to take in.

00:07:59.140 I know you have young children as well.

00:08:01.360 To spend time thinking about what the parents are going through is almost, it's incapacitating.

00:08:06.400 And yet, like, we can't jump right to the gun debate.

00:08:11.260 And that's what the lunatics online do, right?

00:08:15.000 That they jump right to the awful politics of it before spending a moment just reflecting on what is,

00:08:20.920 what does it say about humanity?

00:08:22.460 What does it say about America?

00:08:24.560 What does it make us reflect on, you know, as parents and citizens and humans, a moment like this?

00:08:30.700 Well, I think most people can't make head or tail of it.

00:08:37.120 I can't.

00:08:39.120 I mean, if you ask most people, whether they have kids or not,

00:08:44.620 whether they'd be prepared to hurt a child, and they would look at you funny.

00:08:50.080 If you ask most people whether they'd be prepared to hurt their grandmother,

00:08:54.860 they would look at you funny.

00:08:56.240 It's devastating.

00:09:00.820 It's also incomprehensible.

00:09:02.080 I suspect that's one reason people do jump right to policy, right to saying do something.

00:09:09.620 Because it's not an issue that you think, well, there but for the grace of God go I.

00:09:16.940 Perhaps we all think that in terms of being a victim.

00:09:20.140 But the number of people in America and in the world who would be capable of this or willing to do this is tiny.

00:09:27.820 And unfortunately, it does seem only to take one or two, more maybe, but this sort of event is rare.

00:09:38.360 And then we end up heartbroken.

00:09:40.000 But I think, you know, it's not just that it's devastating, it's that it's incomprehensible.

00:09:45.380 I have, as you say, small children.

00:09:48.060 I just, I mean, it's a strange thing that we've entered into this cycle.

00:09:54.760 Someone at some point started doing this, and then there are people who have copied it.

00:09:59.200 But it's not something that had occurred to human beings before a certain point.

00:10:03.980 And I think the rest of us would never have invented it, even in a novel or a movie.

00:10:12.740 So we don't really know how to think about it.

00:10:15.840 And then you look at the shooter and you think, monster, absolute monster, who has four fourth graders barricaded in a room and looks at these terrified children and says,

00:10:25.440 you're, you're about to die, and then starts killing them in front of one another.

00:10:30.140 Like, how does that person exist on this earth for 18 years without everyone around him knowing this is a potential murderer? 1.00

00:10:40.220 This is a sociopath.

00:10:41.540 This is someone who should be locked up, right? 0.69

00:10:44.220 And so we look legitimately to what was in his past.

00:10:48.460 What were the red flags?

00:10:49.720 Last week with the buffalo shooter, we saw prior to his racial radicalization within the past 12 months before he went on his rampage, we saw signs.

00:10:59.900 We saw the torture and killing of a cat that he seemed to enjoy that was especially brutal.

00:11:06.340 And these sociopaths often start with animals.

00:11:09.540 In this guy's case, maybe more will come out.

00:11:11.760 It's only been less than a day.

00:11:13.380 But so far, it's more of a, he was bullied, he had a lisp, his dad wasn't in the picture, his mom was on drugs, he lived with the grandma.

00:11:23.980 I mean, as much as I'd like to look at that, Charles, and say somebody should have found the signs, that's true of so many kids living in America who don't do this kind of thing.

00:11:33.020 You know, I'm looking for lessons, too.

00:11:35.100 I'm looking for things we can say, ah, that, we just won't do that again.

00:11:40.360 And then the next one will be prevented.

00:11:41.780 And so far, you know, I see a messed up family life, but not one that would have predicted this.

00:11:47.840 It's so hard to predict.

00:11:50.600 You know, I'm not religious, although I'm married to a woman who is.

00:11:56.780 I have a lot of religious friends.

00:11:58.860 But I do think that there is such a thing, however you want to define it, as evil.

00:12:03.480 There are some people who are just wrong.

00:12:05.600 And we know this from history.

00:12:06.640 And I don't think we can eradicate them or, you know, develop or evolve as a culture to the point at which they don't exist.

00:12:17.860 And as you say, how could you do this?

00:12:22.020 How could you go into this classroom and do this?

00:12:24.620 And frankly, how could you could you do it to a cat, let alone a human being?

00:12:29.700 And I don't know the answer to it.

00:12:31.160 And I do know these people exist.

00:12:32.640 And I do know we have to structure our society in some way to accept that really unpleasant fact.

00:12:38.520 Trying to find them, though, is really difficult.

00:12:40.640 And, you know, I am a classical liberal in my politics because I think that there are also a lot of risks in in trying to do that.

00:12:51.640 You know, you want to find a balance between having police and prosecutors and a zero tolerance tolerance policy towards criminals and sort of catching up all sorts of people who haven't done anything in in a dragnet.

00:13:06.500 And as you say, the characteristics that you just described are common to a lot of people who would never dream of doing this.

00:13:14.800 So, you know, what do you do?

00:13:16.520 And I'm afraid that I don't know.

00:13:19.940 And I suspect most of the people who say they know also don't know.

00:13:23.940 And that makes this more scary, not less.

00:13:26.100 See, I feel like I know on a guy who on the on the Buffalo shooter, on a guy who is displaying sociopathic tendencies and has expressed a desire to hurt a lot of people.

00:13:37.980 You know, a year before that shooting, he said he wanted to shoot up his school and himself and got flagged and did a day or two inside of a mental health facility before he convinced them he'd been joking.

00:13:47.780 But I do. I do feel like I know in that case, we really do need to have a facility into which we can send these people and they have to stay there and there will be an erosion of their civil liberties.

00:14:00.500 And that's just too bad.

00:14:02.300 That's just the way it's going to have to be.

00:14:03.980 But there will be a procedure in place to on a more macro level, protect their civil liberties.

00:14:09.840 It would have to be reviewed every two weeks to four weeks.

00:14:13.420 It can't just be reviewed by one person.

00:14:15.260 It has to be a panel of people who are satisfied that he's not no longer a danger to society.

00:14:20.040 And we need to build the facility, Charles, because it doesn't exist yet.

00:14:23.280 All we have right now is is jails and mental facilities that look like jails.

00:14:28.020 And we need I've said this before.

00:14:29.560 We need a facility into which a loving parent would send his or her own child someplace that.

00:14:34.660 You could live with having sent your own child.

00:14:36.860 OK, but that's secure.

00:14:39.100 But.

00:14:40.480 Even if we did that in my in my dream world where we take all this extra covid money and we build that.

00:14:46.180 This kid wouldn't have been in it.

00:14:48.300 Not not from what I've heard so far.

00:14:50.320 He and I hear he loved the the violent video games.

00:14:54.380 OK, so to millions of other people who would never do such a thing.

00:14:58.800 I'd love I'd love to say it was Grand Theft Auto.

00:15:01.560 Believe me, I would love to say that.

00:15:02.960 But let's get rid of that.

00:15:04.380 Great.

00:15:05.680 I've been covering these too long.

00:15:07.840 That's not it.

00:15:09.800 And in my experience that, you know, the would be shooter is attracted to those games and maybe perhaps likes to practice on them.

00:15:15.880 But that it doesn't make you a shooter.

00:15:17.480 Getting rid of them doesn't solve it.

00:15:18.740 This guy worked at a Wendy's where he reportedly freaked out some of the people was he was an odd guy.

00:15:28.540 According to the Daily Beast, a colleague at Wendy's told them he walked around with a pair of boxing gloves at the park.

00:15:35.000 He asked people to fight him.

00:15:36.380 He filmed it.

00:15:37.140 He, quote, menaced co-workers asking one of the cooks, do you know who I am?

00:15:41.500 She says he would be very rude toward the girl sometimes.

00:15:44.180 He would also send inappropriate texts to the ladies.

00:15:47.960 OK, again, you know, we've seen that.

00:15:50.980 He posted pictures of his guns.

00:15:53.780 He had been bullied because of his stutter.

00:15:55.440 His friend or cousin said she saw that herself and that he didn't want to go back to school after being mocked.

00:16:03.880 He wasn't very much of a social person after being bullied for the stutter.

00:16:07.960 Again, millions have been bullied far, far worse than it sounds like this kid ever got it.

00:16:11.960 And don't turn to this stuff.

00:16:13.660 He just give you another couple of things.

00:16:16.600 The Daily Mail says he was described as nice but quiet.

00:16:21.000 That those who knew him described him as growing, quote, increasingly violent as he became older, though I'm not exactly sure what that means.

00:16:27.660 They said at one point, according to his friend, he showed up one time with cuts all over his face, initially claiming he was scratched by a cat before admitting he did it to himself with a knife.

00:16:40.540 Definitely a red flag there.

00:16:42.340 He drove around with another friend at night sometimes and shot at random people with a BB gun. 0.99

00:16:47.800 Again, this is not normal behavior, but I can see that also being chalked up as he's a moronic teenager. 1.00

00:16:55.980 You know, he's an idiot teen. 1.00

00:16:58.000 He egged people's cars. 1.00

00:16:59.400 Same.

00:17:00.900 The post I mentioned posted the social media photos of automatic rifles that he wanted on his wish list.

00:17:06.220 That doesn't mean anything.

00:17:08.240 And so on and so forth.

00:17:09.680 So, you know, there's nothing here that makes me think he would go into my imaginary facility, but there's also enough there that makes me say, where was his mother?

00:17:20.480 Where were the school administrators?

00:17:22.120 Where was his where were the people who said we got to talk about this kid?

00:17:26.180 Yeah, so I broadly agree with you on the need to commit more people than we do.

00:17:35.180 I think we've gone too far in the other direction where we've come to see many mental health issues as a choice or an alternative way of looking at the world when they're not.

00:17:47.080 But as you say, you know, perhaps that picks up the shooter in Buffalo, but it probably doesn't pick up this guy.

00:17:57.500 And, you know, what he did is obviously evil, but it's also irrational.

00:18:04.620 It's something of a non sequitur in that you wouldn't anticipate it.

00:18:08.200 So, let's look at his bullying.

00:18:12.120 Let's see, he was bullied.

00:18:13.460 You could construct a circumstance in which he went after the person who had bullied him, but not a class full of unrelated 7 to 10-year-olds.

00:18:24.420 Right.

00:18:25.560 And that's another problem you have.

00:18:27.480 If you look at, say, murder investigations, the first thing the police do is say, well, who do we think could have done this and what motive could we find?

00:18:36.100 You know, were they angry with the victim?

00:18:40.320 You know, was the victim cheating with their wife or, you know, had they stolen from them?

00:18:46.280 But in this case, what's the link?

00:18:49.920 I mean, it's so beyond your imagination as a normal person that for a government or a mental health professional,

00:18:58.980 it's quite hard to make the various constituent parts add up.

00:19:06.680 And so we once again find ourselves sitting saying, what on earth just happened?

00:19:12.980 They've scoured his social media.

00:19:14.960 There was an eerie exchange with a young woman.

00:19:18.780 All we know about her is that she was a minor.

00:19:20.760 I think she was in another state.

00:19:22.420 Might have been California.

00:19:23.600 I can't remember.

00:19:24.200 Um, and he had, yeah, she lives in Los Angeles.

00:19:28.700 She claims to barely know this guy, but she posted screenshots of messages.

00:19:32.980 He sent her early Tuesday, right before the shooting, after tagging her in a picture of his rifles.

00:19:38.560 And in these exchanges, he said he wanted to share, quote, a little secret, L-I-L, little secret, and urged her to respond to him.

00:19:46.820 This happened before it went down.

00:19:48.820 And there's a picture of these exchanges where early that morning, it's, um, like, I can't read my own, right?

00:19:55.620 It's like 5.43 a.m.

00:19:57.140 He texts her, I'm about to.

00:19:59.700 And she writes back, about to what?

00:20:02.300 And he writes, I'll tell you before 11.

00:20:04.600 Good morning.

00:20:05.400 And she says, good morning.

00:20:06.540 And he says, I'll text you in an hour, but you have to respond.

00:20:10.180 And that's when he says, um, I got a little secret.

00:20:13.600 I want to tell you.

00:20:15.660 And he never, he never reveals it.

00:20:18.820 He goes and does it.

00:20:20.520 Now, of course, she knows what it is.

00:20:22.100 He had moved in with his grandmother a few months ago.

00:20:24.740 Um, she was apparently in the process, according to the Washington Post, of evicting the shooter's mother from a separate house, which the grandmother owned.

00:20:34.640 So there was family strife.

00:20:36.840 Uh, the mother was apparently on drugs, had a drug problem of some sort. 0.89

00:20:40.940 And the guns, Charles, which is where, of course, we, we're going to go next, were legally purchased.

00:20:47.680 Um, once again, we have people focusing on the guns used.

00:20:50.640 They were two AR-15s, which he bought, uh, I think it was on May 16th or shortly there.

00:20:56.040 He turned 18 on May 16th.

00:20:58.220 And within the past, you know, week or so, he bought these two guns.

00:21:01.720 They were legally purchased.

00:21:03.260 And again, a background check.

00:21:06.800 I, this kid wouldn't have been red flagged for anything.

00:21:09.620 He hadn't been, according to the cops today, he wasn't in trouble with law enforcement.

00:21:13.020 They, they were aware of the family because there'd been so many domestic disturbances involving the house that he shared with his mother prior to all this.

00:21:19.820 So they knew there was an issue there.

00:21:21.360 But that's not the same as he's a would-be shooter.

00:21:24.440 He's torturing animals.

00:21:25.460 You know, like, he hadn't been red flagged for anything.

00:21:27.340 So he would have passed a background check.

00:21:30.020 Like, I, I, I keep looking at all the gun laws, all the gun laws.

00:21:34.380 And you're the perfect person to talk to about this because I know you're very pro-Second Amendment.

00:21:37.120 And I'm, I'm not a big Second Amendment person.

00:21:40.740 I, you know, it's one of the amendments.

00:21:42.580 It's, it's a constitutional right.

00:21:43.760 I get it.

00:21:44.540 But I'm not like, so I'm, I'm more like I'm a mom.

00:21:48.040 If there's something that's actually going to protect my children, let's do it.

00:21:51.060 And I don't really care if it upsets the people at the NRA.

00:21:53.980 I couldn't care less.

00:21:55.920 However, having looked at them all, especially after Parkland and Newtown, having taken a hard look, I don't see the thing, Charles.

00:22:03.880 I don't see the thing.

00:22:05.320 As a lawyer, I want to see the thing.

00:22:07.540 I don't want to make an emotional decision.

00:22:09.000 I realize it's just like, do it all.

00:22:11.280 But realistically, show me the thing that's going to stop this kid, this next kid who looks like this kid from getting the guns. 0.67

00:22:18.060 And there's nothing to blame it on right here.

00:22:20.420 I don't know what would have stopped it.

00:22:22.020 Well, I don't either.

00:22:25.780 I mean, as you say, I come out at a pro Second Amendment position.

00:22:30.420 I didn't always.

00:22:31.980 You'll hear from my accent.

00:22:33.400 I didn't grow up in America.

00:22:34.400 And in fact, I used to have the opposite view, but I changed my mind.

00:22:39.660 And when something like this happens, I reset a little bit.

00:22:44.440 And my brain says to me, all right, well, maybe we should just go all out.

00:22:49.620 Maybe we should just do everything.

00:22:52.380 Yeah.

00:22:53.320 That's a human reaction.

00:22:55.420 You know, that's the reaction I had after 9-11, too.

00:22:59.340 Do whatever it takes.

00:23:00.780 But, you know, as you start to reason through what that is, you realize that that's not a plan and that you need to do something far more concrete.

00:23:11.020 And I tend to end up at the same place that I started.

00:23:17.320 You know, let's accept the fact that this is the only country where this happens regularly.

00:23:24.960 It's not the only country in which it happens, but it's certainly the only country in which it happens at this scale.

00:23:30.780 Well, the question you then have to ask is, well, then what?

00:23:34.380 You know, what is the difference between the United States and, say, Britain, where I'm from?

00:23:40.620 Well, about 400 million privately owned guns is the answer and a constitutional right to bear them.

00:23:47.680 I know people like to talk about the Supreme Court and they like to talk about the NRA.

00:23:51.900 But that's not the reason that we have that many guns and that support for the right to keep and bear arms is where it is.

00:23:59.200 It's not the reason that the people are the reason that it survives.

00:24:03.740 There is no appetite for that in Britain.

00:24:05.800 There is in the United States.

00:24:07.940 So you want to change that.

00:24:09.400 Well, what would that involve?

00:24:10.880 You have to amend the Constitution.

00:24:12.400 But once you've done that, you'd really have to confiscate all of them.

00:24:17.060 And it would be pretty traumatic, pretty violent.

00:24:20.060 It would yield all sorts of objections from civil liberties groups, I think, quite rightly. 1.00

00:24:27.480 So if we're going to do that, then let's say we're going to do that.

00:24:30.280 But we're not going to do that.

00:24:31.920 I think we all know that we're not going to do that.

00:24:34.040 And so what we're going to do will be far more modest.

00:24:37.300 And where I find this debate infuriating is that the more modest proposals that come up invariably have nothing to do with the problem that they are being suggested in response to.

00:24:52.320 I mean, we saw this yesterday.

00:24:54.780 President Biden said at his press conference, we need to do something.

00:25:00.500 We need to stand up.

00:25:01.600 We need to have the courage.

00:25:03.040 And then Chuck Schumer in the Senate introduced two background check bills that have absolutely nothing to do with this, that wouldn't have stopped this.

00:25:12.540 And those two background check bills will now be sold by the Democratic Party and the press as a solution to what happened.

00:25:21.340 And those who oppose them for whatever reason will be cast as the problem, as obstinate, as recalcitrant.

00:25:30.120 But, of course, they're not.

00:25:31.320 And I think what so irritates me about this is that we end up having this false debate in which the people who are skeptical about passing more laws are told that they don't care about the underlying problem.

00:25:47.620 And the people who are in favor of passing more laws, even if those laws have nothing to do with what happened, are cast as caring about it and as wanting to fix it.

00:25:57.600 When, in fact, that's actually not what's happening at all.

00:26:03.000 I think the people who say they don't know what to do are being admirably honest.

00:26:08.400 And it's not, I'm afraid, it's not the easy position to take.

00:26:12.640 It's actually terrifying to take that position.

00:26:16.860 To say this horrible, devastating thing happens and I don't really know what to do about it.

00:26:22.820 It's not comforting at all.

00:26:25.480 It's frightening.

00:26:26.420 But I'm afraid that is the conclusion that I have come to and I find myself in despair, but that's not a reason to, you know, back measures that really have nothing to do with this.

00:26:40.560 What's in the Schumer proposed background check bill and why is it not a good idea?

00:26:46.800 Well, there's two things.

00:26:48.160 The first one is to extend background checks to all transfers, even private transfers within the same state.

00:26:58.440 The second is to extend the period that the federal government can block you from purchasing a firearm if you come up on the flag list.

00:27:10.560 So on the first one, all commercial transfers of firearms and all transfers of firearms between two states are subject to a federal background check.

00:27:23.700 So if you go to a gun store, you need a background check before you can buy a gun.

00:27:28.300 Or if you live in Georgia and you sell a gun to someone in Florida, you need a federal background check before you can make that transfer.

00:27:35.500 If you transfer a gun to someone in Florida, you don't need to involve a background check.

00:27:43.040 Now, there are many states that have implemented their own background check rules.

00:27:46.880 So California, Connecticut, New York, if the people in those states transfer a firearm, then they need to use a background check.

00:27:54.600 But in most states, that is not the case.

00:27:57.380 The arguments against this are many.

00:28:03.880 One is the federal government doesn't have the authority to regulate intrastate private transfers.

00:28:08.420 Another is once you get into the details, and this is where the sticking point has been really with Toomey Manchin and its offshoots, it's quite difficult to determine what a transfer is.

00:28:18.460 So, you know, is a transfer me lending someone a gun to go hunting?

00:28:22.880 If it is, what does that do to families?

00:28:26.320 What does that do to friends?

00:28:27.300 Who gets excluded?

00:28:28.220 Does that make it useless?

00:28:29.620 The biggest objection is that if every single transfer in the United States is essentially recorded by the federal government, then we have a gun registry.

00:28:38.400 And, you know, gun registries are outlawed.

00:28:41.040 I'm not, you know, spitting at the mouth against this proposal.

00:28:44.080 I just don't see the point of it, given that this hasn't done anything.

00:28:48.400 No, name me one mass shooting where that was the origin of the gun.

00:28:51.660 Well, exactly.

00:28:52.260 That's exactly it.

00:28:53.940 So you end up bureaucratizing an awful lot of American life in pursuit of a policy that actually doesn't intersect with mass shootings, but is being sold on their behalf.

00:29:04.980 That's why that's stalled out.

00:29:06.840 The second one is defensible.

00:29:10.300 For example, you know, at the moment, if I go to a gun store and my name comes up on the flag list and they say, sorry, you can't have it, they have three days to investigate and confirm that I was not allowed to buy a gun.

00:29:23.940 Otherwise, I get the gun.

00:29:26.380 This is a simple due process requirement.

00:29:28.300 It's really no different than any other.

00:29:30.040 If the police arrest me and then they can't provide evidence that justifies my detention, then I get to go home.

00:29:37.080 You know, we can argue about how long that should be.

00:29:39.100 The Toomey Mansion bill actually would have reduced that to one day.

00:29:43.380 There are some proposals in Congress that would extend it to 10.

00:29:46.500 I think Chuck Schumas does that too.

00:29:48.520 You know, we could talk about 7 or 14 or 20 or 100.

00:29:51.440 But after a certain point, we are going to have a due process protection in place for the exercise of a constitutional right.

00:29:58.880 I think due process protections are really important.

00:30:01.680 So, you know, while I'm not, again, spitting fire over this, I don't see a particular need to change that away from 3.

00:30:11.540 And the one case that has ever intersected with this, which was the massacre in Charleston.

00:30:18.480 Yes.

00:30:18.880 And that wasn't quite as neatly connected to this as the people who wrote this bill say.

00:30:26.260 He said the allegation in that case is that that shooter who went into a predominantly African-American church and killed, I think it was 9, 10 people, that he had applied for the gun.

00:30:40.160 They had done the background check on him.

00:30:41.820 You know, he wanted the gun.

00:30:43.040 The three days went by and there had been no objection from the feds.

00:30:46.180 So they gave him the gun after three days.

00:30:49.400 Well, yeah, I mean, there are a number of problems in that.

00:30:51.340 The first one is that he should have been in the system in a more concrete way.

00:30:55.520 And he wasn't, which is a data entry problem.

00:30:57.960 And Congress has actually tried to fix that.

00:31:00.420 They passed this bill called the Fix NICS Act, which helps to plug that hole.

00:31:08.300 But the other reason it's not that neat is that he went and committed his horrendous murder spree about two months after that whole process.

00:31:18.980 So three days, 10 days, 20 days wouldn't have made a difference.

00:31:22.600 Again, I can see the argument for it.

00:31:24.140 But, you know, I can also see the argument for changing the amount of time police are allowed to hold suspects.

00:31:29.100 I just would point out that after a certain point, we're not going to allow the indefinite detention of human beings.

00:31:35.820 And we're not going to allow the indefinite suspension of their constitutional rights either.

00:31:41.440 The broader point here is that nothing that Chuck Schumer has introduced or plans to introduce have anything to do with what happened in Texas.

00:31:49.520 Right.

00:31:49.940 And yes, I am strongly opposed to draconian gun control because I think that it won't work.

00:31:56.280 I think there are just too many guns in circulation.

00:31:58.020 I think we'll end up with another prohibition.

00:31:59.800 But I would be far more comfortable with those who say do something if they just came out and said do something draconian.

00:32:07.260 Let's become Japan, South Korea, Britain. 0.97

00:32:10.260 I'm not trying to straw man them.

00:32:12.160 I'm not trying to pretend that's what they're arguing for.

00:32:14.600 I accept that it's not.

00:32:16.300 What I am saying is that pointing to what happened in Texas, which, you know, makes me want to cry right now on the show,

00:32:22.520 pointing to that and saying, therefore, we have to do insert non sequitur here is just not helpful.

00:32:29.140 It's not virtuous.

00:32:31.200 And it's it's a distraction from what from putting our focus on what might actually be the problem.

00:32:37.480 You know, I mean, I say this to my friends.

00:32:39.980 All of my friends are our New York City liberals.

00:32:42.160 You know, like most of them, not all.

00:32:43.320 Most of them are New York City liberals.

00:32:44.440 And all of us have been texting and we're all moms.

00:32:47.180 And my friends are like, F this.

00:32:49.860 You know, it should be a lot harder to get a gun.

00:32:52.480 Why is it so easy to get a gun in America?

00:32:54.880 You know, there can be barriers to it.

00:32:57.260 And I I continue to say, like, show me the thing that would that would have prevented it.

00:33:03.340 You can't.

00:33:04.060 And they're very focused on AR-15s.

00:33:05.840 I want to pick it up with you.

00:33:06.740 They're taking away the AR-15s.

00:33:09.280 The AR-15 is just a semi-automatic gun that's longer.

00:33:12.200 It's like, do you know how many semi-automatic handguns there are in America?

00:33:16.520 The Virginia Tech massacre, which remains the worst school massacre ever in American history,

00:33:22.080 involved a semi-automatic couple of them handguns like a Glock,

00:33:25.720 which no one's even proposing that we would get rid of and which would never be gotten rid of.

00:33:32.660 There's absolutely no appetite to get rid of a gun like that.

00:33:35.420 So it's like, OK, you can get rid of the what, 15 million AR-15s there are, maybe 20 at the month, 15, I think.

00:33:40.780 Like, that's not going to do it.

00:33:42.460 All right.

00:33:42.600 I want to talk about the specific guns and Joe Biden's renewed push for an assault weapons ban right after this.

00:33:54.100 Breaking news.

00:33:54.860 This just in from ABC News, speaking just a short time ago to the shooter's grandfather.

00:34:00.060 Keep in mind, the shooter was living with his grandmother.

00:34:02.260 One presumes the grandfather as well, though we don't know that.

00:34:04.660 The grandfather says the family had no idea that he had purchased two guns for his birthday, again, which was on May 16th.

00:34:12.560 Here he is speaking with ABC News.

00:34:15.120 Would he spend a lot of time in his room alone?

00:34:17.820 Yes.

00:34:18.520 Uh-huh.

00:34:19.400 Oh, sometimes he would go.

00:34:21.280 I'd take him to work with me.

00:34:23.060 Not all the time, but I would take him to work.

00:34:25.100 And it didn't seem like he went to school very often.

00:34:27.360 No.

00:34:27.600 Well, this past year, he didn't go to school.

00:34:30.240 He didn't graduate, but he didn't go to school.

00:34:32.320 Why?

00:34:33.200 I don't know.

00:34:34.760 You know, you tell them, you tell them, and they think they know kids nowadays.

00:34:38.600 They know everything.

00:34:39.700 Everybody says, yeah, he almost didn't talk very much.

00:34:42.100 No, he didn't talk very much.

00:34:43.280 Did he talk to you?

00:34:44.860 No, just when we go to work or here or there, you know.

00:34:48.220 Did you know that he bought those weapons?

00:34:50.200 No.

00:34:51.160 Like I said, I don't like weapons.

00:34:53.260 I cannot be around weapons.

00:34:55.000 Because you have a record.

00:34:56.420 Yeah.

00:34:56.620 And it's illegal for you to actually be around.

00:34:58.500 Yeah, that's right.

00:34:58.920 I cannot be around guns.

00:34:59.780 I hate when I see all the news, all those people that get shot.

00:35:03.960 I'm against all that.

00:35:05.240 I said, why do they let these people buy guns and all that? 1.00

00:35:08.540 Those stupid whatever they shoot. 1.00

00:35:11.000 And Rolando, when you heard about the shooting, what did you do? 1.00

00:35:14.540 Did you even know that it was your grandson?

00:35:16.120 No, the neighbor called me.

00:35:20.740 Oh, wow.

00:35:22.100 Good gracious.

00:35:23.400 Back with me now, Charles C.W. Cook, senior writer at National Review.

00:35:27.220 He said the grandmother who he revealed the shooter shot in the head, believed to be 66 years old, took the shooter for dinner to Applebee's to celebrate his 18th birthday.

00:35:39.180 Anyway, they didn't, again, they didn't know he had weapons.

00:35:42.360 The weapons were not allowed in the home, says the grandfather who had a past felony conviction and was not allowed to be in a home with firearms.

00:35:49.160 I don't know what's happening there, Charles.

00:35:50.840 Obviously, the grandparent's not paying enough attention and the kid's not going to school.

00:35:54.100 The kid's a loner.

00:35:54.760 The kid's not talking.

00:35:55.680 The kid's amassing an arsenal.

00:35:57.320 He didn't just have the two guns, the two AR-15s.

00:36:00.860 He had a ton of ammo.

00:36:02.640 So it was 375 rounds of ammunition, 5.56 ammunition, and this plate carrier, a kind of vest designed to carry bulletproof body armor, though there was no body armor inside of it, we're told, during the actual shooting.

00:36:17.760 I mean, you know, most parents would know if their kid had something like that going on in the room.

00:36:22.060 These grandparents didn't.

00:36:24.160 The grandfather confirmed what we reported earlier, which is he didn't live with the mother because they had problems.

00:36:29.420 So it doesn't illuminate anything.

00:36:32.280 It's just sort of interesting.

00:36:33.740 Meantime, you have Joe Biden, as he did after Buffalo, calling for the renewal of the assault weapons ban, which he's been pushing for years and years and years.

00:36:43.820 And he says it works.

00:36:45.640 He says he knows it works, that mass shootings went down when it was in place for 10 years.

00:36:51.980 And that's what we need again.

00:36:53.360 Here's just a bit more, not necessarily on that particular point, but on what Joe Biden's messaging was last night when he spoke to this.

00:36:59.720 The parents who will never see their child again.

00:37:05.260 Never have them jump in bed and cuddle with him.

00:37:11.740 Parents will never be the same.

00:37:13.640 To lose a child is like having a piece of your soul ripped away.

00:37:22.560 As a nation, we have to ask, when in God's name are we going to stand up to the gun lobby?

00:37:30.420 When in God's name we do what we all know in our gut needs to be done?

00:37:35.660 I am sick and tired of it.

00:37:40.100 We have to act.

00:37:42.660 And don't tell me we can't have an impact on this carnage.

00:37:47.280 The idea that an 18-year-old kid can walk into a gun store and buy two assault weapons is just wrong.

00:37:55.460 What in God's name do you need a solvent for except to kill someone?

00:38:02.980 Dura aren't running through the forest with Kevlar vests on for God's sake. 0.99

00:38:08.900 It's just sick.

00:38:10.880 For God's sake, we have to have the courage to stand up to the industry.

00:38:15.200 Where in God's name is our backbone to have the courage to deal with it and stand up to the lobbies?

00:38:22.740 What do you make of it?

00:38:25.460 The first thing I would say is that he did what I described earlier, which is imply that we all know secretly what to do, but that some of us refuse.

00:38:37.600 And therefore, this is an issue, a debate between people who care about it and people who don't.

00:38:46.840 That's wrong.

00:38:48.420 I think that infuriates people, and rightly so.

00:38:51.480 Whenever I hear him do that, I remember some of the excesses on the right after September 11th, where people would say, well, if you don't agree with our particular proposal as to what we need to do in foreign policy or counterterrorism or what you will, then you must not care about what happened in New York, which of course was not true and was deeply unfair.

00:39:13.780 So I think that framing is ugly.

00:39:17.040 On the specifics, so I think in the interest of fairness, it's true that if there were a so-called assault weapon ban, it's a totally misleading term, but I assume that it means AR-15 ban in Texas or federally, that the shooter would not have been able to buy two of them.

00:39:42.000 So let's stipulate that.

00:39:44.260 And let's also stipulate that if the same age rules applied to shotguns and rifles as applied to handguns, then he wouldn't have been able to buy any firearms.

00:39:55.040 In the state of Florida, all firearms have a 21 age limit.

00:40:00.420 In Texas, it's 18 for shotguns and rifles and 21 per federal law for handguns.

00:40:07.880 The problem that I see with that, and the problem I think a lot of people, including many now within the gun control movement as well, have come to acknowledge, is that getting rid of a particular subset of semi-automatic weapons from the purchase point doesn't solve the issue because people will just substitute out the gun that they use.

00:40:29.720 And we saw that, unfortunately, at one of the worst massacres in American history at Virginia Tech.

00:40:35.360 And you said earlier, you can do precisely the same thing with a Glock, and there is just no appetite whatsoever to ban handguns.

00:40:45.240 It has about 20% support in the United States.

00:40:48.080 So why would we focus on this, especially when it is true that when it comes to mass shootings, that mass shooters seem to have a bit of a fetish for the AR-15.

00:41:02.280 But it's not true that if you look at statistics in gun murders, that the AR-15, or indeed rifles, are much of a problem at all.

00:41:11.460 In fact, there are so few murders committed every year with so-called assault rifles, the FBI doesn't keep statistics.

00:41:20.240 There are actually more people in America killed every year with hands and fists and feet than with all rifles combined.

00:41:27.620 If you want to look at the problem in suicides and in murders, it's handguns.

00:41:32.940 And that was always the focus.

00:41:34.320 It's recently changed because these spectacular mass shootings that send us all reeling tend to involve rifles.

00:41:43.740 But they wouldn't if you changed the purchase rules.

00:41:49.100 So I just, you know, I think this is a red herring.

00:41:52.960 I think it is telling that even though it would directly address what happened, you know, Chuck Schumer didn't introduce a bill on this.

00:42:01.900 I think it is telling that support for banning so-called assault weapons have diminished over time.

00:42:09.480 It is statistically wrong to say that the 1994 ban that I think Joe Biden wrote did much of anything.

00:42:17.820 You know, study after study shows that it didn't, Columbine happened while it was in effect.

00:42:23.760 This is a very, very difficult issue.

00:42:25.840 I will just say for those people who are much more in favor of gun control than I am, it is obviously the case that the United States has a problem here in a way that many other countries don't because it is awash with guns.

00:42:40.600 I mean, that is clearly true.

00:42:42.660 This doesn't happen so often in England because the guns just aren't available.

00:42:47.700 The difference, though, is that there are already 400 million guns here in circulation.

00:42:52.240 That's the thing.

00:42:52.700 I just see no evidence that, you know, arbitrarily restricting which type you can buy, trying to ban the most commonly owned rifle in the United States.

00:43:02.960 I don't think that is going to make much of a difference.

00:43:05.660 It would if there were zero guns in the United States.

00:43:08.220 We'd be having a completely different conversation then.

00:43:10.980 But those guns exist.

00:43:13.680 And, you know, I don't think that's the solution here.

00:43:17.500 And no, I don't know what is.

00:43:19.480 Yeah, that's the thing.

00:43:20.500 This is the hand we've been dealt is that the guns are out there.

00:43:23.560 There are more guns in America than there are people in America, over 400 million by most estimates.

00:43:30.420 And the vast majority are semi-automatic pistols.

00:43:33.280 You know, I mean, people that's what people get for for self-defense.

00:43:36.400 They're not all using some old, you know, Western pistol from, you know, some movie set just because it's cool to hang on their wall.

00:43:44.420 They want protection.

00:43:46.420 And a lot of people who grow up or live like I do or have for most of my adult life in cities don't think it's necessary because they got a big police force.

00:43:54.980 And if you call 911, they'll be there.

00:43:57.100 And it's, you know, they just can't even imagine how people along the southern border or more rural communities are living genuinely worried about self-defense and the need to protect their families.

00:44:06.340 You know, God forbid, crime should arrive at their doorstep.

00:44:09.540 So there's all sorts of reasons why we are the way we are.

00:44:12.460 And it's written right into the Constitution.

00:44:13.980 And even if tomorrow there were a constitutional ban on all guns in America, good luck.

00:44:19.780 Good luck getting 400 million guns back.

00:44:22.160 So, yeah, I'm in I'm philosophically I'm in the same place.

00:44:25.720 It's like this is the hand we've been dealt.

00:44:27.300 We have to do something about it.

00:44:28.400 And yet this is the one of the really disturbing cases because I just don't see what could have been done.

00:44:33.520 Yes, it would have been nice if his parents and his grandparents had been better, more attentive.

00:44:37.000 If his school had been better, more attentive, you know, if the community had red flagged him in some way, if the guy who sold him the AR-15s had said seems like a little off.

00:44:47.760 You know, maybe there's some sort of a social media search that they do.

00:44:50.920 I who knows?

00:44:51.860 That doesn't seem plausible.

00:44:53.500 But those are all like the comfort checks we go through now at the airport with the shoes coming off.

00:44:57.800 Does absolutely nothing.

00:44:59.260 Makes someone somewhere feel better and really leaves us in exactly the same security position we would have otherwise been in.

00:45:05.920 I agree with you.

00:45:07.880 And, you know, we also have quite an interesting political landscape to deal with.

00:45:13.580 That's right.

00:45:14.360 In which conservatives broadly are strongly in favor of the Second Amendment and progressives are not,

00:45:23.400 but are also increasingly worried about what they call the carceral state, what they see as over-incarceration, as overzealous prosecutors,

00:45:35.060 as a school-to-prison pipeline that disproportionately affects people, in their view, who aren't white.

00:45:44.600 And I think the combination of those actually makes it very difficult to do anything.

00:45:49.220 Because, you know, on the one hand, you have people who aren't particularly invested in the Second Amendment.

00:45:55.900 They'll say, well, we need laws and laws and laws and laws to deal with this.

00:45:58.900 And, of course, conservatives say no.

00:46:00.300 But then those people don't actually want to enforce them.

00:46:02.600 And so you have this strange paradox where, for example, there's a Supreme Court court case pending at the moment in New York,

00:46:12.900 where you have progressive defense lawyers filing amicus briefs for the Supreme Court saying,

00:46:20.200 actually, we would like the gun laws in New York loosened because they have a devastating effect on my clients and their communities.

00:46:29.060 Right. And making this very different argument out of the other side.

00:46:31.960 I got to wrap, Charles, but thank you.

00:46:34.180 Thanks for being here today.

00:46:35.080 We really appreciate it.

00:46:36.780 Thanks.

00:46:37.780 When we come back, Neil Heslin, friend and Sandy Hook dad, will be with us.

00:46:43.340 We'll be right back.

00:47:13.340 Neil Heslin has been an example in dignity throughout his unwanted time in the national news.

00:47:25.200 He has, with class and love, honored the memory of his son in public and in private, despite his own personal pain,

00:47:32.100 and knows all too well the hell that certain Uvalde parents are going through today.

00:47:37.960 Neil, thank you so much for being here today.

00:47:40.700 Thank you, Megan.

00:47:41.360 I can't imagine what this brings up for you.

00:47:44.340 It must bring back so much.

00:47:47.180 Yeah, it does.

00:47:48.020 And clearly any of the mass shootings or especially school shootings, it opens up a wound that never really healed.

00:47:57.380 But this tragedy that happened yesterday, it really touched home or a little closer to the heart.

00:48:07.600 Not that they all don't, being that it was an elementary school, young children, it just, it was, I heard about it in the afternoon.

00:48:22.080 And then I, a little later in the evening, I heard more about it on the news and watching it on the news.

00:48:34.600 It just, it just, it just, uh, completely reminded me of Sandy Hook and almost like an instant replay of it.

00:48:43.240 Uh, the fact that the shooter, uh, killed his grandmother.

00:48:49.840 And just being in elementary school and just being in elementary school and breaching the entry and, uh, watching the, the news coverage of the, uh, the school and the, the response, first responders, it just all opened up the, that whole wound again.

00:49:12.980 And, uh, there's just no words for it, uh, these shootings, uh, and the school shootings that we, we come to expect, um, in society now.

00:49:24.520 And it's an awful thing to say, but it's a true fact.

00:49:28.300 They just keep happening over and over again.

00:49:30.820 And the tragedy that happened in Buffalo last week, it's, it's something we know that's going to happen again.

00:49:39.500 And, uh, I just want to say that my heart goes out to the families and the victims, uh, of the tragedy yesterday and, uh, also the community.

00:49:52.760 Uh, I know so firsthand so well what they're going through and just, just watching the news last night, family members waiting to see if their, their loved ones were at the hospital.

00:50:07.780 Or, uh, uh, that sense of not knowing it brought me back to the night at the firehouse, uh, in Sandy Hook that afternoon, not knowing if Jesse was a victim, uh, or if he was survived somehow.

00:50:29.460 Uh, sadly, uh, sadly, it did not.

00:50:33.440 And it, uh, just opened up the whole, for me, it opened up that whole tragedy again.

00:50:42.840 Yeah.

00:50:43.100 You know so well what I've been through and seen at first hand over the years, um, I just, uh, couldn't help but think, think about what these families are, have to deal with in the future to come.

00:50:59.500 Um, um, I pray to God they, they won't have to endure what we from Sandy Hook have had to endure, um, being a public tragedy.

00:51:10.500 Uh, my, my heart definitely goes out to them.

00:51:13.840 My thoughts and prayers are with the families and the victims and, um, the community.

00:51:19.080 They're going to need them.

00:51:20.700 They're going to need the thoughts and prayers of you and, and all of us right now.

00:51:24.720 I mean, I, I know your story well.

00:51:26.820 I know Jesse's story well, but if you, if you don't mind, I would like to take the audience through it a bit because.

00:51:33.860 I think there's some healing value to be had in understanding, uh, in what happened before to better understand what's happening now.

00:51:43.160 And I know the morning of December 14th, 2012, you had Jesse, you, you're divorced from Jesse's, uh, mom, you know, we're not with Scarlett, but you had him with you and you took him to a diner.

00:51:57.420 You had a nice morning.

00:51:58.940 I was talking earlier about how, you know, you drop your kids off at school and it's sort of a happy moment.

00:52:04.080 You're, yeah, they're going off.

00:52:05.340 They're going to be with their buddies.

00:52:06.820 In this case, it was right before the end of school.

00:52:09.180 In Jesse's case, it was shortly before the Christmas holiday.

00:52:12.720 And I know you remember well, the last couple of things he said to you and that they're so meaningful to this day.

00:52:19.860 I remember walking into the school that day, him holding my, my hand, well, my finger.

00:52:25.660 Uh, and, uh, walking across the parking lot, he had said, uh, it was good.

00:52:33.480 We, it was too bad.

00:52:35.160 We didn't get to do the, uh, injure bread, uh, house at, uh, Stu Leonard's last night.

00:52:42.340 And I said, that's all right, Jess, we're going to, uh, we're going to do them today at school.

00:52:47.600 And he said, no, we're not, it's not going to happen.

00:52:51.100 And I, we were supposed to go that afternoon into his classroom to make gingerbread houses.

00:52:59.660 And that week we'd gotten all the supplies and dropped them off to the teacher, I guess, jelly beans and tinfoil, cardboard.

00:53:10.800 Each of the kids had something to bring.

00:53:13.080 And, uh, he was right.

00:53:17.640 It never happened.

00:53:18.720 It wasn't happening.

00:53:19.960 And, uh, I remember him saying, giving me a hug that day and saying, uh, getting out of the truck.

00:53:27.620 It'll be all right, Dad.

00:53:28.920 Don't worry.

00:53:29.820 Everything will be okay.

00:53:32.000 And it was kind of out of the blue.

00:53:34.280 It wasn't anything that was extremely different than our, our normal, uh, chaos or problems or life problems.

00:53:48.840 And, uh, it was 904 when I walked through those doors and the bell rang and at 904.

00:53:58.720 And, uh, he said, uh, thanks, gotta go, hurry up.

00:54:04.340 Around the corner he went.

00:54:06.220 And he said, love you.

00:54:07.800 And, uh, that was his last words I, I heard from him.

00:54:12.860 And, uh, I sat in the parking lot probably till 20, 25 after, um, the hour, uh, doing some phone calls.

00:54:25.900 And I finished his hot chocolate and egg sandwich he didn't have.

00:54:31.240 And I pulled out of there.

00:54:32.820 I, I very well could have drove past the shooter when he was coming in.

00:54:38.240 It was within minutes.

00:54:40.840 And then shortly thereafter, there was a message, uh, that came over the cell phones and phones.

00:54:48.560 There was a shooting in Newtown.

00:54:52.180 Schools were in lockdown.

00:54:53.540 Then it said that there was a shooting in town, in, in a school.

00:54:59.880 The second message, the third message said it was at Sandy Hook Elementary School.

00:55:05.220 So we proceeded back to the school.

00:55:07.940 And, uh, I would guess in about a half, probably 40 minutes or so after, uh, after the shooting,

00:55:15.920 I arrived back there at the firehouse and, uh, the only way to describe it, it was like a war zone with state police, law enforcement, FBI, um, swap team.

00:55:31.560 Very chaotic, but very well organized on the responders' part.

00:55:38.600 There were a lot of students that were in the, uh, shortly thereafter, uh, coming into the firehouse that were in the school that they escorted out.

00:55:49.300 Uh, I don't recall what time that was exactly.

00:55:54.760 Um, of course, we looked for Jesse and never found him.

00:56:01.220 Um, but the, the information wasn't real clear.

00:56:05.700 It was, um, as to how many victims there were or if there was, how many were injured, how many were wounded.

00:56:15.420 I never gave up the hope that he would, uh, he would survive or he would, uh, he was, um, got out somehow.

00:56:30.520 And, uh, about 1 a.m. when we were notified or I was notified, confirmed as he was one of the victims.

00:56:39.180 Uh, but that was more, uh, less, uh, and it was a lot more to happen that day that sets to my mind, too.

00:56:47.520 Uh, you know, I, I know the families went through that yesterday.

00:56:52.420 I, I know, uh, I remember thinking a day, a day or two, the next day, I guess, was, uh, about having to plan a funeral for Jesse.

00:57:04.260 And, uh, I remember going to the funeral home.

00:57:09.180 Thinking to myself, how am I ever going to be able to afford this?

00:57:12.860 You know, knowing I had a, had to bury him, uh, didn't matter.

00:57:18.140 I was going to have, get it done.

00:57:19.680 And, you know, it was, walked in a funeral home and it was, uh, the funeral director said, explained what was available.

00:57:30.920 And said, uh, you know, there was so much, so it was services that were donated.

00:57:35.800 It was definitely, uh, it helped the situation.

00:57:42.040 But these, these families are going to go through the same thing.

00:57:45.660 Find a burial plot.

00:57:47.420 Um, I, I mean, it's just those little things that we, when we have these shootings or these tragedies, we never, people never share that with it.

00:57:58.980 It's, it's, it's always, we jump onto the agenda of gun control, the agenda of mental health.

00:58:05.120 Um, um, oh, these, these people's lives in this community are forever changed.

00:58:11.900 The victims' families' lives are forever changed, uh, void that never can be refilled or replaced.

00:58:22.080 And as, as time went on, you become a target for so many things.

00:58:28.460 People come out of the woodwork to exploit the tragedy, to solicit off the tragedy for financial gain.

00:58:35.920 And I, it breaks my heart to, to know that these families are gone.

00:58:42.720 I, I, I pray to God they don't, don't endure that.

00:58:45.580 And it doesn't happen, but it continuously happens over, over and over again.

00:58:51.920 It's a good point, Neil.

00:58:53.340 You know, when you lose a child in any circumstances, it's absolutely devastating.

00:58:57.140 But to then have to have your pain exploited and have the situation compounded by bad actors, which it has happened now repeatedly since Newtown, takes it to a whole different level.

00:59:13.140 And that's also sadly likely to be part of their story.

00:59:17.620 Political operators trying to push through agendas that they've long been pushing and using this to do it.

00:59:22.700 And also, you know, we have to talk about the insanity of yes, Alex Jones, who I know you are suing and want to default judgment against with some other Newtown parents, but just the community that's some bizarre fringe lunatic community that gets together to say, don't touch our guns.

00:59:45.020 Because the desire to take our guns is so big that a group of parents got together and faked this, that the, that the Newtown families had to endure that.

00:59:54.620 And other families since then have had to endure that by people who are so ardent in their fringe beliefs that they actually think a parent would do something like this.

01:00:06.220 And I know you've dealt with that firsthand.

01:00:08.240 I just saw all very true what you said, but you know, one of the things that really comes to light to me is within hours or days of the Sandy Hook tragedy, the United Way came forward and was raising funds and accommodating and collecting donations that came, were coming into the community.

01:00:34.060 And as time went on, it became a big fight.

01:00:40.740 People, donors thought that funds were going, would be going toward, to the families or directly needed in the community.

01:00:53.560 And they weren't, that wasn't the plan with it.

01:00:56.680 They really didn't have a plan.

01:00:58.320 And it took a lot of fighting by the families.

01:01:02.180 It took, uh, Ken Feinberg, an attorney, uh, come up with a plan as how to distribute those funds.

01:01:11.340 And it never worked out the way it should.

01:01:14.060 Um, but every, every tragedy and shooting that's happened after this, it has been the same thing.

01:01:22.280 These organizations come in and capital, try to capitalize off of these tragedies.

01:01:30.920 And yes, some of the funds do go to the victims and the community, but there's a large part of them that, that just never make it there.

01:01:39.560 Um, there are, um, there are a few funds that are set up, um, that a hundred percent of those funds do go to the, uh, the victims and their, and the families and the people who need.

01:01:53.900 One of them is the National Compassion Fund.

01:01:57.000 Um, and that I believe is the one that's in handling the donations in, uh, Buffalo.

01:02:04.740 Well, but, uh, that's good to know, that's good to know, because you don't, you never know your good hearted people want to help.

01:02:12.860 They don't know how to help.

01:02:14.060 They do tend to donate.

01:02:16.000 So it's good to know National Compassion Fund you like.

01:02:19.160 Yeah.

01:02:19.680 But when we have these tragedies, I'm sure you, Michelle, everybody, you know, our hearts are broken.

01:02:27.260 And our first thought is, how can we help?

01:02:31.960 Well, we'll send some, a donation.

01:02:34.520 Uh, and I just, uh, can't stress enough anybody that wants to help and has the intent of financially sending a donation.

01:02:45.120 Um, I'm not discouraging that.

01:02:47.260 Um, but just please make sure you know where, where that is going and that it will get to the, uh,

01:02:57.260 the people who need it, the victims or, or the, the families, the community.

01:03:02.320 No, it's a good caution.

01:03:04.600 And it's, uh, I know for a fact the National Compassion Fund is, it's, uh, 100% goes to the victims and the family and the ones in need.

01:03:15.860 Um, you know, you mentioned how immediately we go to gun laws and we go to mental health and we do like our forensic analysis of what needs to change.

01:03:25.780 And I think it is a coping mechanism, right?

01:03:28.000 To make us feel like we can control it.

01:03:30.160 We can make sure it doesn't happen again.

01:03:32.800 Things that we have proven unable to do.

01:03:35.300 So, you're in a unique position having lived this and the Newtown families have gone different ways and don't all feel uniformly about any one issue.

01:03:44.300 But how do you feel?

01:03:45.640 I mean, do you, do you have any particular insights 10 years later on how to prevent something like this?

01:03:53.240 Yeah, I have a lot of insight on it.

01:03:55.460 And, you know, I'll, I can share that, uh, uh, shortly.

01:04:00.140 But, you know, we, well, you have these shootings, whether these mass killings or murders, attacks, the weapon of choice always seems to be a gun.

01:04:13.800 Reason being, it's the most effective weapon to carry out these, these crimes.

01:04:21.140 Um, and most of them are semi-automatic, uh, weapons because they're most effective.

01:04:27.660 I do have a second amendment in this country, and, uh, that should be protected, and we, we shouldn't infringe upon that.

01:04:38.060 Um, the answer isn't to go and, and take all the guns away from people or ban, ban weapons.

01:04:46.000 Uh, there's definitely is a lot of room for improvement, whether it be through background checks, uh, which I fully support.

01:04:54.800 Um, you know, being more observant to, uh, red flag with people, I guess, uh, or individuals.

01:05:08.880 But the problem with this shooter in Texas or with that is he was 18 years old.

01:05:17.280 I, he probably did not have a criminal record, didn't show up, wouldn't show up on a criminal background check.

01:05:24.800 Um, I don't know where, how he obtained the gun, whether it was legally, illegally, um, but if it was through illegal channels, um, he would have never shown up probably with a criminal background.

01:05:40.680 That's how it looks.

01:05:41.380 But it looks like he did not have a criminal history and that he did purchase both firearms legally.

01:05:45.800 Well, that's, see, that's a, uh, so you can't say he fell through the loophole.

01:05:53.700 Uh, that could be a 40 year old individual too.

01:05:57.320 Um, I don't know what his mental state was.

01:06:01.620 Um, but we, you know, the things we need, need to address are the, definitely the background checks.

01:06:13.700 Um, is, is, is a, a key there.

01:06:17.660 Uh, uh, the, uh, mental health is something that should be addressed and how to incorporate the mental health into a background check.

01:06:30.480 And, and that's not something that's been able to get accomplished because the HIPAA laws prohibit that.

01:06:38.120 Mm.

01:06:38.800 Um, with the case with the schools, uh, how did this individual get in there?

01:06:45.700 I, I did hear he overpowered the law officer that was there.

01:06:49.140 I don't know if that was through a gunfight or how that happened.

01:06:54.140 Uh, but we are, we are being told at this hour, Neil, that the teachers and staff were banned from carrying guns at this school, uh, yet to be confirmed.

01:07:04.080 But that's the initial report as for the security officer.

01:07:07.540 Uh, yeah, initial reports are that he, he, the gunman overtook him.

01:07:10.580 Um, you know, he, he had a breach entry to get into the school.

01:07:15.440 I, I think, uh, centralized entry point in the front door, um, the ballistic proof glass, uh, ballistic proof entryway.

01:07:26.180 So those are all things that, uh, are very beneficial and a necessity.

01:07:33.460 Um, but our, our resource officers at these schools are only as good, only as effective as the training they have and the equipment they have.

01:07:46.960 Um, the presence, yes, it's a deterrent, but if you have an armed individual there,

01:07:56.180 a security personnel resource officer, that's a bigger deterrent and a much stronger deterrent to an armed gunman than an unharmed resource officer.

01:08:08.780 And you have a highly trained individual who is willing to engage with an active shooter or a, uh, an armed gunman.

01:08:18.720 And that's a lot bigger deterrent than for a gunman, knowing that they're going to be shot at and fired, fired back at.

01:08:27.920 Um, it's a whole different mindset when you're getting shot at and being, doing the shooting.

01:08:37.100 Um, so I, I fully support, um, resource officers in the school.

01:08:41.880 I know that's been a big controversy.

01:08:44.760 Um, but it's something that we have in society now, our, our airports, um, sporting events.

01:08:53.220 So, so, so many places we go, we have armed, armed security there.

01:08:57.620 Uh, even, uh, even synagogues now have armed security and have fortifications outside of them.

01:09:03.480 Sadly, they need them too, but the schools have not really been fortified, um, to the extent a lot of parents would like to see.

01:09:11.060 So I, I, I take your point.

01:09:13.540 Can I ask you, Neil?

01:09:14.760 Well, cause I think, you know, one of the things I, I'd like to know, um, is whether, like what your message is to the parents who are suffering down there.

01:09:24.920 You know, I, I know you didn't take down that Christmas tree that you and Jesse decorated together for four years.

01:09:32.920 Um, I just wonder whether there's a message.

01:09:36.860 There's a pretty tree there.

01:09:38.860 Yeah, go ahead.

01:09:39.600 The Christmas tree is, uh, the Christmas tree is down, um, uh, that, that I could take down after, uh, after so many years, five years, I guess, maybe a little more than five years.

01:09:55.720 Um, but it's, it's probably the last thing they want to hear, but, um, you know, uh, he, every, but we all get through it.

01:10:05.920 Uh, it's the worst thing in the world to lose a child.

01:10:10.240 Um, I wouldn't wish it upon anybody.

01:10:13.320 I, I didn't know how I was going to get through it.

01:10:17.080 I literally couldn't see any further than 10 feet in front of me.

01:10:22.160 I could see no light at the end of the tunnel.

01:10:25.980 Um, but it, there's a lot of support out there.

01:10:31.540 There, there's a lot of people, families and, uh, other individuals who have gone through what these, uh, this community is going through.

01:10:44.440 Um, and there's a lot of support there.

01:10:49.060 I, I'm here anyway.

01:10:51.400 I, I could support the, uh, the victims, families, the community, anything I could do.

01:10:57.680 Um, I, I'm here to do that.

01:11:02.280 Have you managed to find joy?

01:11:04.660 Uh, yeah, I, uh, I've managed to, to move on and be able to, I mean, I don't, I haven't forgot what happened.

01:11:14.380 It's, uh, forever etched in my mind, but I've, I've been able to move on.

01:11:18.980 Uh, uh, I, uh, first thing you have to do is accept what happened.

01:11:27.140 You can't change it.

01:11:28.580 You don't have to like it clearly.

01:11:30.440 Um, but you have to accept it.

01:11:33.520 And, uh, when you, when you, you're able to accept it, you can move forward.

01:11:39.980 Um, and, you know, I'm, I was 50 when I lost Jesse.

01:11:46.860 I'm 60 now.

01:11:48.820 And I have, uh, hopefully I have a few good years left, but, uh, no, I want to, want to enjoy what time I have left.

01:11:58.600 I, I don't want to quit feeling sorry for myself or feel like I'm feeling like I'm the victim.

01:12:06.480 Uh, I, I have the, the strength now and the knowledge, the ability, the ability to, to be a, be a support for people who are going through what I went through 10 years ago.

01:12:21.760 The other thing that happened in Sandy Hook, and hopefully it's not going to happen anymore, uh, is the conspiracy theories.

01:12:31.480 And, uh, the hoaxters that, uh, had derived out of, uh, after Sandy Hook, the Wolfgang Halviks, uh, Jim Spetzer, the Alex Joneses.

01:12:46.900 Um, and, you know, these people attack the victims' families and, and the dead, um, the victims, uh, at the weakest moment.

01:12:59.400 Um, and, uh, you, you have no resource and I don't know how to handle it.

01:13:08.200 Being called a liar for criminal intent and criminal purposes, uh, crisis actor.

01:13:15.660 Uh, I mean, these things are awful.

01:13:18.300 And, and, and, and when you, you, you've lost the most valuable thing in your life and then to be, have to deal with this harassment and it's just, it's an unspeakable sin and it's, it's, it's terrorism.

01:13:38.000 It's, uh, it's, uh, and fortunately I, I found the strength and, uh, the guidance to, uh, to stand up and fight for my rights.

01:13:51.920 And, uh, it seems like I've, I've made success with that.

01:13:58.160 And I hope that's despite, uh, deter it from other tragedies.

01:14:05.940 And, uh.

01:14:06.720 That's something we all need to be on the lookout for because the family should not have to deal with this.

01:14:11.000 They should not have had to file lawsuits against people harassing you over whether your son did or did not die.

01:14:18.560 It's unspeakably awful.

01:14:20.180 Definitely not about me.

01:14:22.180 I share my experience, but, um, you know, I've had a lot of support, um, across the board from people.

01:14:31.720 A lot of people reached out to me yesterday to see how I was handling this because they all saw the similarities of what happened in Sandy Hook.

01:14:39.420 But, you know, I share my story and what, what happened to me, but, you know, the focus in the sport needs to be on the people.

01:14:50.180 Of the community and the victims, families of the tragedy in Texas yesterday.

01:14:59.160 Um, not about the past tragedies, but they're the ones that need the help now.

01:15:06.260 And they're the ones that can use the help in the weeks and the months to come and years to come.

01:15:13.880 I'll end it with this, Neil.

01:15:15.960 Jesse left you the roadmap.

01:15:18.600 Of how he'd like you to live this life.

01:15:23.600 How, how I think he'd like you to heal and how he'd like you to live this life.

01:15:29.240 Didn't he?

01:15:30.280 He left you two notes.

01:15:33.060 Chalk board.

01:15:34.180 Chalk board.

01:15:35.180 And in his, um, his half-brother's.

01:15:39.060 Yep.

01:15:40.020 That's true.

01:15:41.500 Nurturing, healing, love.

01:15:44.460 And, uh, the message he left for his brother, uh, written on a piece of paper, was have a lot of fun.

01:15:51.400 Um, he definitely, uh, I, I never looked at it the way you, you just shared that, Megan.

01:15:58.000 But, uh, yeah, he did leave a roadwork, a roadmap for, for his message and, uh, say my, my roadmap wasn't quite that clear.

01:16:09.660 But, uh, you know, I've definitely acquired the tools over the years to, um, I, I think make a change, um, and the strength to go with that.

01:16:22.600 Uh, you know, I'm sure in the days, weeks, and months to come, we're going to see the gun control agenda ramp up.

01:16:32.760 And, um, especially with the, the, um, you know, where we're at with the, uh, political side of it now.

01:16:46.340 Um, um, I think you're going to be, she'd probably try to reintroduce bills for gun bans, a confiscation. 1.00

01:17:01.460 Um, I don't think we'll, we'll see much change or much success, sadly, with that.

01:17:08.480 Um, but I definitely support people who are out there to support their agendas and their beliefs.

01:17:19.680 Um, but I hope we, you know, we could, uh, at least improve the laws we have, um, address, strongly address the mental health issue.

01:17:31.500 Um, and, uh, improve the school security, uh, yeah, fortification.

01:17:41.360 And when we have these tragedies, we, you know, we have to, whatever failed there on the, the end of security of, of, and not to blame, uh, and I'm putting blame on the school or a resource officer or anything, but what we need to look at.

01:18:01.500 Because what failed that in this situation that enabled them to breach entry, um, we, we learned from, we have to learn from these tragedies.

01:18:13.420 And we can't bring back the people we lost or, or Jesse, or, and we just got to try to come up with things to prevent these tragedies, uh, and shootings.

01:18:25.080 In the meantime, I feel like we'll all do well, but especially the Texas families, nurturing, healing, love.

01:18:31.260 If we follow Jesse's words, it's an amazing message for him to have left on Scarlett's chalkboard and for her to have found after his passing, nurturing, healing, love.

01:18:42.680 Neil, thank you so much.

01:18:44.120 Thank you for being here and sharing your story with us.

01:18:46.480 All the best to you.

01:18:48.020 Yeah.

01:18:48.240 Thank you, Megan.

01:18:49.580 Yeah.

01:18:50.360 Have a good day.

01:18:51.460 You too.

01:18:53.220 Hmm.

01:18:53.480 My God, that man has just been, I'll never forget.

01:18:58.160 I, the first time I heard Neil, I was live on the air.

01:19:02.080 It was shortly after Newtown.

01:19:03.660 I was pregnant with Thatcher and he testified before Congress and had a picture of Jesse.

01:19:08.600 And was talking about the tragedy in the most compelling, gripping 20 minutes plus, maybe it was 60 minutes.

01:19:17.740 I remember we blew out the rest of the show just to listen to him.

01:19:20.900 And just so loving and kind and not angry, right?

01:19:28.200 Not, not angry.

01:19:29.540 Can like who, who in his position shortly after this tragedy in Newtown would defend the second amendment.

01:19:35.280 But he did, you know, and that's his view.

01:19:39.180 Not everybody feels the same.

01:19:40.400 It's, that's fine.

01:19:40.980 That was his point, right?

01:19:41.920 Everyone should be able to express their views and they're going to be all over the board and we should be respectful of them all.

01:19:46.520 And we should be open-minded.

01:19:48.700 Um, everything should be on the table.

01:19:50.500 I, I still think in, in the wake of a tragedy like this.

01:19:54.400 Thank you all for spending this day with me.

01:19:56.940 Um, I really am grateful and we'll, we'll talk more tomorrow.

The Megyn Kelly Show - May 25, 2022

Tragedy in Texas： Another Deadly School Shooting, with Charles C.W. Cooke and Neil Heslin ｜ Ep. 329

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript