The Megyn Kelly Show - True Dangers of Men in Women's Prisons, as Trump Drives Change - Deep Dive with Maddy Kearns ｜ Ep. 989

00:00:00.440 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:12.040 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:14.980 In today's AM bonus episode, the ramifications of Trump's executive order,

00:00:20.480 defending women from gender ideology, extremism, and restoring biological truth to the federal government

00:00:26.200 are being celebrated all over the country, and certainly right here at the MK Show.

00:00:31.320 Female prisoners also have reason to celebrate. Men cannot be housed in female prisons any longer. 0.82

00:00:39.580 And thank God, because one journalist recently detailed a shocking story of one female inmate's

00:00:47.060 journey and trial over being housed with men, and it completely underscores how just and needed

00:00:54.740 Trump's order was and how disgusting Obama, Biden, and Harris were in insisting that this be allowed

00:01:03.440 to happen. Maddie Kearns is associate editor now at The Free Press, and she joins me now.

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00:01:57.500 Maddie, good to see you again. How are you doing?

00:01:59.680 I'm doing well. Thanks for having me.

00:02:01.820 Okay. So tell us a story. Start with the opening. Who is the prisoner and what happened to her?

00:02:07.960 Sure. Her name is Rhonda Fleming. She's serving a 27-year sentence for Medicare fraud in the federal

00:02:14.300 prison system. And she's been in there since 2009. So before the Obama era policy got into play. And 1.00

00:02:23.360 really since then, she's been housed with multiple men in various federal prisons throughout the

00:02:29.900 country. And she's been trying to protest this. She's been trying to fight for women-only spaces 1.00

00:02:34.980 in prisons for a long time. She had a lawsuit that was unsuccessful in 2017. The Trump administration,

00:02:42.040 first time around, did roll back some of this stuff, but they certainly haven't been as forceful

00:02:46.680 as they've been this time. And then she just had this recent lawsuit against the Biden administration,

00:02:52.080 which once again allowed much more permissive policies. And that lawsuit was held in district

00:02:59.200 court in Florida on the 14th of January. And the judge ruled against her and found that her claim

00:03:06.180 that being housed with two men violated her constitutional right to bodily privacy. He found

00:03:13.040 that this wasn't persuasive because she did have access to some shower curtains and partitions in the 0.96

00:03:19.600 restrooms and so on. And so he ruled against her. Now, I spoke to her lawyer on Friday and he said to me,

00:03:26.200 well, we're hoping that she won't have to appeal or at least that the appeal won't all depend on the

00:03:31.340 appeal because hopefully Trump will come in and change the policy. And it looks like he got his

00:03:36.140 wish because we broke the story on Sunday that that is exactly what Trump has done with his new

00:03:41.900 executive order. So who was defending the lawsuit, the Bureau of Prisons, the Federal Bureau of Prisons?

00:03:49.460 That's right. So it was Erica Strong was the warden at Tallahassee, the federal prison in

00:03:55.300 Tallahassee. And she was she was being she was in her official capacity as a representative for the

00:04:01.240 Federal Bureau of Prisons. So it was a lawsuit against the Federal Bureau of Prisons.

00:04:06.280 And so was it the feds? Was it the DOJ representing the Federal Bureau of Prisons?

00:04:11.960 Yeah, so it's exactly it goes up to the DOJ. And so this was this was a policy from the top down.

00:04:18.920 And so it started under Obama in 2012. The Department of Justice under Obama issued this

00:04:25.760 transgender prisoner's offender manual. And in that they said, you know, we don't have to base

00:04:31.260 this on on sex. We can base this on gender identity. And that's regardless of what they 0.96

00:04:37.400 called, quote unquote, genital status, if you can believe that. And so, yeah. So so that obviously

00:04:43.820 just resulted in men, men who hadn't even gone undergone hormone treatment necessarily or even

00:04:49.260 surgeries being housed in women's prisons. And I should say, Megan, it's not just men. It's men who

00:04:55.220 are criminals. And according to the Bureau of Prisons own data, half of these men in women's

00:05:01.900 prisons are sex offenders. So it's you know, it's really just a recipe for disaster.

00:05:08.100 And there have been cases of assault and rape.

00:05:10.940 Yes, there have there. There was there's a case in California. So California, this is talking

00:05:17.580 about the state prison system. So they've got their own laws and they have essentially a

00:05:22.800 self-ID law, which just allows any prisoner and any male prisoner to just declare themselves

00:05:28.620 a woman. And then they are entitled. And the entitlement is a big problem here. They're 1.00

00:05:32.920 entitled to be housed in a women's prison. And there was a really terrible case of a man

00:05:38.480 who allegedly raped and impregnated fellow inmates. There's a lawsuit going forward just

00:05:45.300 now under represented by the Women's Liberation Front. They're a radical feminist organization 1.00

00:05:51.200 who are opposing this. And they're hoping that they can they can get, you know, all the way

00:05:56.160 through with this. And, you know, because ideally, this would eventually go to the Supreme Court,

00:06:00.300 because at the moment, Trump's executive order affects the federal prison system.

00:06:05.420 But federal prisons are only there's only 29 of these are federal prisons. The rest are 143 state

00:06:12.020 prisons. And they can really do what they like, as we're seeing in California with these really

00:06:16.400 quite devastating consequences. And even at the federal level, if we don't get a Supreme Court

00:06:22.440 ruling or a ruling from a higher court, it could just get reversed under the next president unless Trump

00:06:28.020 changes the law, which hopefully he will. He's got four years. I mean, this was an immediate

00:06:31.500 way to address the issue. And, you know, I think there actually is public support now

00:06:36.760 to stop this. If you look at the latest polls, they're overwhelmingly on the side of reason,

00:06:41.060 even amongst Democrats. So I actually think there is the opportunity for legislation here.

00:06:46.000 But I don't know. The Democrats tend to be very cowardly on these issues. So what we'd really like 0.93

00:06:50.860 to see is a law passed by Congress and signed by Trump that puts this executive order into

00:06:55.640 permanent place. But short of that, a court ruling, especially from the Supreme Court,

00:06:59.960 would be ideal. So the law fair that's happening does matter. So what happens now? So she lost,

00:07:06.240 by the way, what do we know the background of the judge who didn't think it was a big deal and

00:07:11.000 thought she could just protect herself with a shower curtain? 0.56

00:07:13.580 Yeah, I mean, I don't know too much about his background, so I don't want to sort of speculate,

00:07:17.720 but I think it'd be safe to say he's he's maybe got like a more liberal record on some of these

00:07:22.260 issues. And I think the lawyer also said, you know, it wasn't it. I think maybe Rhonda,

00:07:27.940 the plaintiff got a little nervous and there were some, you know, discrepancies between her

00:07:32.060 deposition and her the evidence she gave in court. So I think it wasn't like the dream day in court

00:07:37.220 they've been hoping for. But even still, yeah, I mean, the fact that that he ruled against her is

00:07:42.580 obviously quite a statement. It should be a very easy case, you would think, especially, you know,

00:07:47.180 most Americans can see this for what it is. I did think it was very interesting that Erica Strong,

00:07:51.480 the warden of Tallahassee prison said in her statement, you know, this is really about

00:07:56.560 Rhonda Fleming not wanting to be housed with prisoners she views as different to her.

00:08:01.340 And you think, wow, like we're not just talking about, you know, just thinking like, oh, I don't

00:08:06.980 like that woman. She's too tall or I don't like that woman. She's too fat. We're talking about 1.00

00:08:11.120 an objective, recognized difference here, right, between male and female. And the fact that this has

00:08:17.300 been like framed as being a sort of subjective thing is really, really troubling. And I think

00:08:23.120 that is one thing, you know, with Trump's executive order, it's going to take time to

00:08:27.420 implement. There's going to be a lot of litigation from, you know, LGBT activists. And I'm sure a lot

00:08:32.320 of these transgender inmates are going to sue if anyone tries to move them out of the women's prisons. 0.86

00:08:37.380 But what it does do is it clarifies this very question. It says, no, wait a minute here. We are

00:08:42.440 pointing to something objective. We're pointing to facts. We're pointing to biological sex,

00:08:49.780 you know, the only kind of sex that there is. And so this is what we need to be rooting our laws

00:08:56.000 and our policies in in order to keep women safe. You know, what's interesting is now it's Pam

00:09:01.940 Bondi's potentially DOJ. You know, I don't think she's not going to have any trouble getting confirmed

00:09:06.380 and it's Trump's government. So the DOJ has the prerogative not to pursue, you know, appeals in

00:09:16.180 certain cases or fight back on the Bureau of Prisons in certain cases. So I would imagine if

00:09:22.200 Ronda filed this lawsuit, you know, under President Trump, you might not even get a DOJ objecting to

00:09:28.680 it. You might she might just win. She could get potentially even a declaratory judgment that she 0.92

00:09:32.560 had the right not to live with men behind closed bars. But but where it will be trickier is where

00:09:39.740 the trans person sues to say, I have the right to go in. Then Pam Bondi will go into court and say, 0.95

00:09:45.760 no, you don't. We have a new federal policy. So there will be court decisions coming out,

00:09:50.860 probably in droves now. By the way, this guy was an Obama appointee. But we're going to start to see

00:09:55.200 a bunch of court decisions now. And I think this is probably generally the beginning of a big case

00:10:00.380 going up to the Supreme Court, which is what the trans community doesn't want, 1.00

00:10:03.800 not with six three conservative to live. They don't want it as well, because I think the policy

00:10:09.000 is fundamentally indefensible. It's obviously dangerous. It's demonstrably dangerous to women 1.00

00:10:14.720 to have convicted male felons housed with them. We've seen the results of this. You know, like I said,

00:10:21.980 half of them, at least in the federal system, half of them are sex offenders. I mean, come on,

00:10:26.020 that's just like, and I should mention as well, you know, I interviewed a former jailmate of Rhonda's

00:10:32.400 who's now released, but they spent some time together and became close friends. And she was

00:10:36.400 telling me, you know, she said she'd been raped before going into prison. She said this is very

00:10:40.980 common in prison that a lot of women who get into a life of crime have been sexually abused. And so if 1.00

00:10:47.620 you just imagine, you know, talk about cruel and unusual punishment, just being in a confined space

00:10:54.280 with men who may have assaulted other women, could potentially assault you. You've been assaulted

00:10:58.920 in the past. I mean, that's just, you know, it's really unjust on just so many levels.

00:11:04.520 It's a nightmare. So do you know how Rhonda's feeling in the wake of Trump's EO?

00:11:11.340 Well, it was very, very difficult to get in contact with Rhonda. As you might imagine,

00:11:15.960 the president weren't all that keen on her talking to journalists. I did manage to speak to her. I

00:11:22.100 won't say how exactly, but I wasn't able to consult with her after the trial. But I know

00:11:26.940 that her lawyer is thrilled at this result. Well, not the result of the case, of course, but

00:11:32.380 thrilled with Trump's policy. And I think it certainly is a morale boost for a lot of women

00:11:37.920 who have been trying to fight about this for years. And I think the other thing as well is,

00:11:43.100 you know, the American public have really woken up to this issue in a big way. But actually,

00:11:48.620 prisons is a fairly, you know, it's fairly small fish to a lot of people because, you know,

00:11:53.580 they're thinking about sports. They're thinking about what's going on with children. They're not

00:11:57.900 necessarily thinking about women's prisons. It's a kind of niche population. And so that's, 1.00

00:12:03.600 it's been all the harder for them to get people to pay attention, get people to care. And I think

00:12:08.300 that, you know, they're hopeful that with the change of administration, with this new

00:12:12.980 focus on it, that they're going to get some attention and rightfully get the public behind them.

00:12:19.020 It's amazing when you think about it, you know, you think about all the, all the attacks on Trump

00:12:26.560 when it comes to women, you know, I mean, that's, I made my debate question to him about the things 0.99

00:12:31.440 he had said about women at that point as a celebrity. But of course, then all hell was

00:12:37.040 unleashed against him with the, after the Access Hollywood tape and all these women coming forward 0.99

00:12:42.020 to say this, that, the other thing about Trump, E. Jean Carroll, whatever that was. And who,

00:12:47.100 like, has Obama, has Biden, have they even arguably done more for women than Trump who passed the

00:12:55.080 anti-sex trafficking law, who on his first day in office signs the sweeping executive order to

00:13:00.800 protect female prisoners, not exactly the most popular group in America, not to mention girls in

00:13:07.760 sport, not to mention women in their private spaces, you know, throughout university system. 1.00

00:13:12.220 So like he just a sweeping protection of women and women's rights for which he will get no credit

00:13:19.200 at all, Maddie.

00:13:21.140 Yeah, it's interesting, Megan. I'm from the UK and I know this issue has played out slightly

00:13:26.620 differently over there. And there's been a lot of feminists and voices on the left who have been 1.00

00:13:31.440 very critical of the transgender policy agenda. And a lot of them are saying, you know, they don't

00:13:37.000 particularly like Trump, but they're saying, you know, you've got to hand it to him. Like,

00:13:40.560 where was our side when we needed them? Like, it's really been him that's delivered this

00:13:45.560 and protected women and unexpectedly, perhaps, or ironically even. But you're right. I mean,

00:13:52.180 it's kind of the results do speak for themselves. And it's hard to imagine how that executive order

00:13:57.320 could have been written more strongly or more clearly.

00:13:59.820 It's just beautiful.

00:14:02.260 Yeah, it just completely made it, you know, that look, we're, we're going to talk about

00:14:06.200 sex. That's what our policies and our laws should be rooted in. We're not even going to like waste 0.99

00:14:10.900 ink on this gender identity stuff. It's just not relevant. It's not relevant to what we're

00:14:15.900 dealing with. We're dealing with women's sex based rights, women's sex based protections,

00:14:19.840 and we are going to uphold that. And I think it was, like I say, you know, a big morale boost

00:14:24.600 for for a lot of women, not just in the United States, but everywhere.

00:14:27.940 Yes, you could see, we talked about how it was May Mailman of the Independent Women's Forum who

00:14:33.400 drafted that with the help of a lot of others. And, you know, even before May got to it,

00:14:37.820 it's just, there's so many women and others, you know, I'm thinking about like Billboard Chris, 1.00

00:14:41.660 who have spent large portions of their past 10 years fighting against this insanity. And even,

00:14:50.160 you know, I think about Kelly J. Keene, who's got, you know, all the merch, like woman, adult,

00:14:54.860 human, female, which is exactly the definition used by Trump's EO. Like everyone just had a hand

00:15:00.640 in it. You know, you can see, I can see the fingerprints of so many women fighters 0.59

00:15:03.660 in this EO, which is going to change women's lives for the better. Eventually, I have no doubt 1.00

00:15:09.340 we'll get to the children. He didn't start with that, which is, you know, the procedures for the

00:15:13.760 children. But the polls are showing that the American populace, including Democrats, are against

00:15:17.080 puberty blockers for children too. So we're winning. We're winning on all of this. And if we can win

00:15:21.560 with prisoners who, again, with all due respect to Rhonda, are not the most popular crowd,

00:15:25.960 you know, as you say, it's a smaller crowd and it's not the most popular crowd because they're

00:15:29.540 lawbreakers, then we can definitely eventually win with kids. I'll give you the last word on it,

00:15:34.560 Maddie. Yeah, no, I think that's exactly right. I've been reporting on this since 2018. And it's

00:15:39.940 actually amazing just how far it's come in terms of public awareness, in terms of, you know,

00:15:46.520 people just having the confidence to say, actually, you know, heck, I'm going to use

00:15:51.620 sex-based language. I mean, I know you had this moment yourself, Megan, where you just thought,

00:15:55.420 you know what? Game's over. I played nice. It didn't work out. I'm going to, I'm just going

00:15:59.020 to say what I think. And I think that has been so powerful. And so many people now are just free

00:16:04.540 and feel free to speak the truth. And that in itself just changes a lot of minds.

00:16:09.460 Oh, it's true. Women's liberation. Maddie Kearns, a pleasure to see you. I hope you come back on

00:16:17.440 soon. Thanks so much, Megan. All right. All the best. And we are back next with Ruthless. Don't

00:16:23.700 miss the fellas. See you then. Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear. 0.87

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The Megyn Kelly Show - January 23, 2025

True Dangers of Men in Women's Prisons, as Trump Drives Change - Deep Dive with Maddy Kearns ｜ Ep. 989

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