The Megyn Kelly Show - Trump Associates Raided, and Victimhood in America, with Sharyl Attkisson and Vivek Ramaswamy

00:00:00.620 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:11.660 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show and happy Monday.

00:00:16.300 How's your Monday going so far? You know, at least we're getting it over with.

00:00:19.000 That's the bright side. Here in Connecticut, it's kind of rainy. It's kind of like,

00:00:23.540 it's just overcast. That's how it looks. Overcast is almost worse than rain, isn't it?

00:00:27.740 It's just sort of like a bummer. Anyway, it's nice to be doing the news with you and be talking about

00:00:32.220 what's going on. Let me start with this. Can I tell you? Last week, we celebrated our one-year

00:00:36.480 anniversary on Sirius. The podcast launched two years ago, but the radio show launched one year

00:00:41.940 ago. And the partnership with Sirius, as it turns out, has some lovely perks. Like they invited me

00:00:48.940 and my husband this past weekend to the Apollo Theater and we saw Pearl Jam. And it was

00:00:57.140 unbelievable. My God, they were so good. Eddie Vedder is unbelievable. He's incredible. He

00:01:05.820 hasn't lost a step. And we thoroughly enjoyed ourselves. And I'll tell you, one of the best

00:01:11.160 parts of it was the guys right in front of us because they take the most ardent fans. And as you

00:01:17.800 know, if you listen to Sirius XM, they engage in like a competition or a lottery and you have to call

00:01:22.240 in and so on. And if you get the tickets, if you're lucky enough, you get great tickets. I mean,

00:01:26.620 there's not a bad seat in the house at the Apollo Theater. But these guys, and it was actually very

00:01:32.080 nice, I will say of Sirius, because these guys won these tickets in March of 2020. But then, as you

00:01:37.780 know, that concert would have had to be canceled, right? Because everything was canceled in March of

00:01:42.060 2020. And they were telling me, the guys right in front of me, they just assumed Sirius forgot about

00:01:46.820 them. You know, two years later, Pearl Jam comes back. They're like, okay. And the guys,

00:01:51.600 this one guy, CJ, right in front of me, diehard fan. This is his 32nd concert of Pearl Jam. He's

00:01:56.960 like, I knew they weren't going to call. So I just kept calling, trying to win again. And he couldn't

00:02:01.340 get through that time. He didn't win this time. And then his phone rang and he just assumed,

00:02:04.860 you know, it was like a solicitation or it was like, hey, where's your money for your bill?

00:02:09.720 And the guy from Sirius is like, don't hang up. This is something good.

00:02:13.560 He's like, what is it? He says, you, we want to give you your tickets. They're common.

00:02:17.020 Anyway, so there was this guy right front and center, CJ and his buddies. And they made the

00:02:22.280 thing even better because, you know, when you're around that kind of almost a religious fervor in

00:02:26.840 a good way for a band or a show of any kind, it's contagious, right? And the dancing and that just

00:02:33.980 like they knew every lyric and the whole thing start to finish was totally enjoyable. It was a

00:02:40.100 reminder to me to get out and see live music more and of how much I love Pearl Jam. My God,

00:02:45.140 it's so good. Learned, heard a lot of new music of theirs. There was one period where

00:02:48.960 they had to reboot the computer. They had some sort of an issue. And, um, that was my favorite

00:02:54.500 part. Eddie Vedder just got out there and acapella, you know, unplugged, started singing

00:02:59.840 really good songs. And the one I'd never heard before anyway, enough about that. But I just

00:03:05.120 wanted to tell you Pearl Jam is amazing. Loving the partnership with Sirius and get out there

00:03:09.020 and see some live music because it is like church in a way. You stand, you sit, you sway,

00:03:13.580 you sing with your fellow human beings and you feel just a little bit more connected than you did

00:03:18.520 before. Um, in any event, let's put that connection aside and start to bashing others.

00:03:26.540 The nature of news. No, just kidding. But there is some, some new darkness to talk about. And that is

00:03:32.100 the weirdness surrounding the feds and Donald Trump right now. It's getting, it's getting even

00:03:37.600 weirder. Uh, Steve Bannon, who's in his own separate world of pain right now, thanks to the

00:03:43.980 New York state attorney general, he got pardoned on these charges by Trump, but that doesn't,

00:03:48.880 that doesn't mean that the locals, the state officials can't come after you. And that's what

00:03:52.260 he's dealing with right now and an alleged fraud, but he was giving interviews about it, uh, last

00:03:57.620 Friday. And he alleged, he alleged that nearly three dozen Trump associates that day or within

00:04:04.200 recent days had also been targeted by the FBI via subpoena, via search warrant. This isn't the kind

00:04:11.520 of thing that people always run to the cameras to report. So we don't know what the numbers are,

00:04:16.260 but Harmeet Dillon, frequent guest of this program, brilliant lawyer. She verified it in part on Tucker

00:04:21.840 that same night saying she had at least three clients who were swept up in this thing.

00:04:26.240 So we don't know how big the numbers are or what the feds are up to or what specific thing they're

00:04:31.880 targeting, but it seems to relate to election denials and quote unquote fake electors and push

00:04:40.920 back over January 6th with Harmeet, which Harmeet is pointing out in the media. That sounds like a

00:04:45.620 first amendment issue. You're allowed to have whatever belief you want. You know, you can, you can come up

00:04:50.060 with cockamamie plans on elections that are never implemented and that's your business.

00:04:55.340 So this is somewhat troubling and it's relates to the trouble that's been around President Trump

00:05:02.500 and his reaction to the election. Meanwhile, it comes amid wild speculation about Trump and his

00:05:08.560 current whereabouts and why we, we think we know where he is, but why is the question? He was spotted

00:05:14.940 near Washington DC late yesterday and the internet has lost its mind. They think the guy's going to jail.

00:05:22.220 That's what they think. All right, we're going to get into all of this in just one second.

00:05:26.060 A little bit later in the show, we're going to be joined by Vivek Ramaswamy.

00:05:29.400 His new book brilliantly analyzes how our society has fallen into a state of victimhood,

00:05:35.100 perpetual victimhood, and how, guess what? That doesn't end well for the victims.

00:05:39.140 You may be the victim today, tomorrow you won't be, and he's got thoughts on how to solve it.

00:05:43.480 But we start today with Cheryl Atkinson, an investigative reporter and host of Full Measure

00:05:49.960 with Cheryl Atkinson.

00:05:55.300 Cheryl, so good to have you back on the program. How are you doing?

00:05:57.880 Thank you. Good to be here, Megan.

00:05:59.800 Great to see you. So the media is a flutter. I guess I should say social media is a flutter right

00:06:06.920 now about President Trump being spotted on the runway. I want to get it right in any event. He's

00:06:14.440 tweeting about it right now at Dulles. Okay. He's spotted on the runway at Dulles Airport,

00:06:20.760 and he had his white golf sneakers on or tennis sneakers of some sort, and he didn't look like

00:06:29.060 President Trump normally looks like in his suit. So cue the Twitter lunatics who are like,

00:06:34.640 he's surrendering himself right now. He's in Washington to surrender himself to the federal

00:06:38.460 authorities. Meanwhile, today he tweets out from his offices saying he's at the Trump Tower down in

00:06:44.240 that area. And hold on, this is exactly what he said. Working today at Trump Washington, D.C. on the

00:06:51.280 Potomac River. What an incredible place. Hasn't responded to this video. And so we have no idea what's

00:06:56.920 going on, but Cheryl, the Twitterati has him arrested and surrendering right now to Merrick Garland on God

00:07:03.060 knows what. You know, I think if one thing we've learned, it's that all the leaks about Donald Trump,

00:07:09.120 particularly the ones where he was about to be arrested, indicted, you know, taken as a Russian

00:07:15.080 spy, the tape recordings that supposedly had him saying things that he never said. I think we learn

00:07:20.880 that more often than not, in fact, up until now, almost every time, what is said or what is

00:07:26.900 leak turns out not to be true. So it signals to me when you hear a leak of something that's pretty damaging

00:07:32.700 against Donald Trump from prosecutors or prosecutorial authority, it usually means to me they're trying

00:07:38.920 to make the most out of something because they know in the end they're not going to have anything, but they

00:07:42.580 want to create the swirl and the bad publicity and sort of this chatter in the meantime, because I think

00:07:47.900 they think they can get something out of that.

00:07:50.380 Mm hmm. There's not I mean, so far as we can tell, there's absolutely nothing going on. And President Trump has no

00:07:55.280 obligation to tell us why he's in the D.C. area. It could be for a medical appointment, for all we

00:07:59.760 know, and maybe doesn't want to broadcast it out to the world because it's none of our business because

00:08:03.700 he's not the sitting president anymore. Be nice if we could get some more transparency into the

00:08:07.780 current president's well-being. That's a different matter, however. So it's just for me, it's an

00:08:13.300 interesting just look at the media and social media in particular about how they can get something

00:08:19.340 going out of nothing, out of nothing. Right. And also, Cheryl, as you know, as you just point out,

00:08:25.500 this is wishful thinking. This is this is just the latest chapter in this is going to be the thing

00:08:31.200 that brings Trump down. Right. It's their wishful thinking of now the downfall begins. The cuffs will

00:08:37.240 be on soon. Well, don't you think prosecutors, if you step back and not study this from a minutiae

00:08:45.360 standpoint, but step back and say, haven't they lost all moral and ethical authority to prosecute

00:08:53.320 Trump and those around him based on their recent past, what they've done? I mean, they've never

00:08:58.700 cleaned house after we know they were on the wrong trail, leaking false information. The FBI attorney

00:09:04.900 that doctored a document, and yet they never got anybody else around it who also knew about that,

00:09:11.420 didn't speak out when it became public. House has never been cleaned. And that same core group is

00:09:16.620 still going after Trump and anybody surrounding him. And in the big picture, it seems to me that

00:09:21.580 the whole thing lacks moral authority and and also legitimate justice authority because of the recent

00:09:28.280 past. I don't know how you would get an independent person that could look at this instead,

00:09:32.740 because look what happened when Mueller was appointed. People hoping that was an independent

00:09:36.620 investigation turned out not to be. But I think that there's very little credence behind anything

00:09:42.180 going on now. That's exactly it. That that's why. And I don't know what Trump actually had down at

00:09:48.820 Mar-a-Lago and what he didn't. And I I've listened to lawyers that I respect, like Mike Davis, say

00:09:53.460 whatever he had, he could have it. He can as long as they were duplicates and not the actual

00:09:58.720 originals. He was allowed to have whatever he wanted and he was allowed to declassify whatever

00:10:04.060 he wanted. And this is all made up. And I've heard other lawyers I respect say, no, he crossed lines.

00:10:09.160 He shouldn't have had those documents. It's problematic. But Merrick Garland shouldn't be

00:10:13.760 doing this for some of the reasons you just outlined. And then there are lawyers on the left

00:10:17.600 who are like full bore. Get him. He's a criminal. You know, he's a spy and so on. I'm not exactly sure

00:10:24.660 where I fall legally on that. But I'm with you on the even if this is the worst of the worst and he

00:10:29.780 didn't have the right to have the documents down there, they've lost the moral authority to do it.

00:10:34.000 They truly have been persecuting the guy for the past five or six years. And I'm done giving them

00:10:39.400 the benefit of the doubt. Well, they certainly don't deserve the benefit of the doubt. And I think

00:10:44.660 this is the problem that comes with them not addressing problems as they go. We can go back decades.

00:10:50.520 Actually, we can go back to the spying on me, the spying on others that took place that the

00:10:56.200 Department of Justice never took care of to this day. My case against the government is in discovery.

00:11:01.500 They're still defending the guilty agents instead of saying this is wrong. Let's root it out. Let's

00:11:06.640 issue an apology and make sure it doesn't happen again. So decades of not cleaning up their business

00:11:12.540 and giving false information to Congress and doing things that are unethical and illegal

00:11:17.180 have led to where we are today, where there is at least half of the country that has

00:11:22.540 no faith in the credibility of our top justice officials. And also when you go down to the state

00:11:28.960 level and you see what crimes or alleged crimes they're prosecuting and paying attention to versus

00:11:33.220 the ones that they're not. I know there are so many people saying this is not a balanced sense of

00:11:39.240 justice in any respect going on in this country right now. So, you know, they've lost people have lost

00:11:45.100 faith in their institutions, including the top prosecutors in this country.

00:11:49.560 Let's talk about what Steve Bannon's claiming is going on now, separate and apart from his

00:11:53.420 prosecution, which he's going to have to deal with, with, you know, the New York State Attorney

00:11:56.720 General. The huge sweep, you know, the dragnet trying to get all these Trump associates caught up

00:12:04.660 in the criminal justice system because they had questions about the January, sorry, the 2020 election,

00:12:10.640 November 2020 election. That's, that's potentially deeply problematic as well. Here's what Steve said

00:12:17.580 on Charlie Kirk's show on Friday.

00:12:21.100 There were 35 senior members of MAGA, uh, Republicans supporters of Donald Trump, uh, that

00:12:28.200 were role, you know, the FBI rolled in on, right. When they didn't need to do it. Remember all these

00:12:32.780 people have lawyers, all their lawyers are very well known. No, the Jack booted Gestapo has got to show up

00:12:37.900 their door and, uh, and make a big display of this. The FBI is the Gestapo right now. I know they hate

00:12:43.480 when I say that, but they're the Gestapo. We're not going to back off call them the Gestapo because

00:12:46.740 they have Gestapo like tactics. Okay. Now I don't know whether that's true or not. I have no idea

00:12:53.700 what he's basing that on. And even though Steve Bannon's connected to MAGA world, that doesn't mean

00:12:59.060 everybody calls Steve Bannon when they get a subpoena, you know, like, I don't know how he would know

00:13:02.980 those numbers. But as I pointed out earlier, Harmeet Dillon, she does represent a fair amount

00:13:08.360 of folks connected to this, you know, Trump inner circle. And she confirmed that she had at least

00:13:13.520 two or three clients who received subpoenas or search warrants or something along this. So

00:13:17.880 something's going on. And, um, again, related to what we don't know, a federal grand jury,

00:13:24.240 according to the Washington post sent subpoenas on Wednesday to a wide range of former campaign

00:13:29.820 and white house staffers asking for information about the save America pack. According to people

00:13:36.240 who spoke on condition of anonymity, this, they described the subpoenas as broad seeking all

00:13:42.500 documents and communications about opening the save America pack and every dollar raised and spent.

00:13:48.920 At least one of the subpoenas also demanded information about the plan to submit slates of

00:13:53.820 phony electors quoting here, claiming Trump won pivotal states, including all communications with

00:14:00.380 several key lawyers and advisors, including Giuliani, Boris Epstein, Bruce Marx, Victoria Tunsing and

00:14:06.780 Joseph DeGeneva. At least one, two, three of those are lawyers. I don't know about Bruce, uh, Boris. No,

00:14:13.720 I don't think. And, uh, the Washington post concludes this week's subpoenas were also the latest

00:14:18.780 science that justice has intensified its own parallel probe into January 6th. Again, this is

00:14:25.740 troubling. This is troubling. If it's fraud, if it's financial fraud, that's one thing. Fine. Get

00:14:30.480 them. I don't care who you are, Republican or Democrat. Sick them if they're committing a financial

00:14:33.980 fraud. However, if we are once again, criminalizing the belief that Donald Trump won, that's a different

00:14:40.260 story. Well, you know, we only have recent history to go by. And based on that, this sure looks like

00:14:48.720 political enemies of Donald Trump are going after him and everybody connected to and surrounding him

00:14:55.420 prior to him potentially announcing his next run for president. And I've spoken to some old time

00:15:00.700 FBI officials. These are people who worked under various administrations over the decades who say

00:15:07.520 there was a time when they would stay way far away from anything that potentially looked political. Even

00:15:13.760 if they thought there was something there, they would be so careful and tread so lightly. So as

00:15:18.600 not to be accused of or appear as though they're doing some sort of political prosecution or

00:15:23.740 investigation, that's all been thrown out the window. I mean, it appears exactly like that. So

00:15:28.980 even if there is a there there, people will ask the question, well, have they ignored similar alleged

00:15:34.940 infractions by other people if they weren't surrounding Trump? And are they treating and handling this the

00:15:40.280 same way that they have or would treat anybody else? And the answer so far has been absolutely not.

00:15:45.620 So I think this is a problem for them aesthetically, even if there is something there, it's going to

00:15:52.300 be a hard sell to a great number of people in the American public based on what the FBI and

00:15:58.020 intelligence agencies have done in the past few years. Well, I also think it's a it's very important

00:16:03.400 if Steve Bannon stole funds from donors and misuse them. OK, go after him. And then let's make very

00:16:11.820 sure that when we have a Republican administration again, we do the very same thing to all the Democrat

00:16:18.880 fundraisers who are misleading their donors because in no way am I defending this practice. But this has

00:16:25.720 been going on in Washington for time in memoriam. And great. Let's crack down on any alleged fraud,

00:16:32.820 but it must be bipartisan. And I really hope the Democrats who are really enjoying what's happening

00:16:37.820 to Steve Bannon have their checkbooks completely balanced and their accounting completely in order

00:16:44.640 because turnabouts fair play. I think Vivek Ramaswamy, he's going to come on and say the Republicans

00:16:49.480 can't use all the same tactics that the Democrats use because, you know, somebody's got to take the

00:16:54.940 high road. I don't know if I agree. Maybe it is high road to just go after everybody who's got

00:17:00.280 accounting issues. But my point is, be careful what you wish for. Well, you know, we'll see,

00:17:06.280 I suppose. But even when Republicans run things, it seems to me, if you're talking about I used to

00:17:11.620 not believe in what they call the deep state, I now do. The deep state of it fairly consistently

00:17:17.060 controlled. And I think they were universally, by and large, anti Trump, even those who may have been

00:17:24.560 pro Republican, you know, Trump would have a position where his enemies were among Democrats

00:17:30.080 and also among Republicans, my view, because he was not elected by or beholden to the big money

00:17:36.260 interests that we're used to having the direct pipeline to the president of the United States.

00:17:40.160 They didn't have the same access. They didn't want Trump in power. So there this giant campaign

00:17:45.580 was launched against him in part because of that. And I think that's an issue of what's been at play.

00:17:51.140 Mm hmm. Meanwhile, the vice president of the United States has very good news. And I wanted

00:17:57.080 to ask you about this because I know you've recently been to and done an in-depth report

00:18:01.540 on the border. Yes, I know. The dog does not like the vice president. I understand. You're not alone,

00:18:06.900 sweetheart. He's adorable, by the way. So Kamala Harris goes on meet the press and like like the

00:18:16.700 Homeland Security Secretary not long before her pronounced that the border is secure. Here's

00:18:23.040 what she said. This is SOT6. Would you call the border secure? I think that there is no question

00:18:31.120 that we have to do what the president and I asked Congress to do is the first request we make

00:18:37.240 pass a bill to create a pathway to citizenship. The border is secure, but we also have a broken

00:18:47.360 immigration system, in particular over the last four years before we came in, and it needs to be

00:18:52.400 fixed. We're going to have two million people cross this border for the first time ever.

00:18:55.520 You're confident this border is secure?

00:18:56.760 We have a secure border in that that is a priority for any nation, including ours and our administration.

00:19:08.480 But there are still a lot of problems that we are trying to fix, given the deterioration that

00:19:15.580 happened over the last four years. We have a secure border in that that is a priority for any nation.

00:19:23.120 What? So we don't. It's a priority, but we don't actually have one. Good for Chuck Topp for at least

00:19:30.760 pushing back a bit. And then she tries to blame whatever problems are there on Trump. For all of

00:19:38.160 Trump's controversies, not securing the border isn't really one you can lay on him. Go ahead,

00:19:43.820 Cheryl. What do you think? What do you make of it having just been there?

00:19:45.540 Well, I go to the border a couple of times a year just to see what's really going on. I just got back

00:19:49.880 from Eagle Pass, Texas, where I interviewed. Usually I interview the officials from these areas

00:19:55.380 in the border towns. Primarily, they are Democrats and Hispanic. And they would say and did say these

00:20:00.900 statements that claim the border is secure are delusional. It's objectively false. You can see that

00:20:07.900 they're overrun in their own words. They can't handle the influx. They have begged for visits from

00:20:14.840 Vice President Harris, from Biden, from any representatives that would come and take a look

00:20:20.020 and try to provide some assistance. I've never seen the border this open. Well, that makes sense

00:20:24.480 because this is a record setting time. But in all my visits to the border, the border kind of has a

00:20:30.360 personality. It changes a lot based on policies that are at play and what's going on from the highest

00:20:36.080 level in Washington, D.C. And this is just unbelievable. But I hate to harp on these stories from the poor

00:20:43.980 illegal immigrants because I know that's only a piece of this problem. But I spoke in great detail

00:20:50.620 to the Venezuelans and others who are coming here now and making these perilous trips and how they

00:20:56.720 have to cross through a jungle to get through Colombia and are almost all attacked by what they

00:21:03.640 call the indigenous peoples who now have a pipeline in the jungle that they rob and rape people. I heard

00:21:09.860 stories that I believe from the illegal immigrants saying that they watched 12-year-olds getting

00:21:14.580 raped, that when the men interfered and tried to protect the girl in one case, the men were raped.

00:21:20.680 These people are robbed, so then they don't have the money to pay the checkpoints of the cartels to be

00:21:25.260 allowed to progress to the Mexico-U.S. border, so they have to keep working. Family members may be

00:21:30.800 kidnapped and tortured until they can come up with additional money to pay the cartels. We are making the

00:21:35.780 cartels rich beyond our wildest imagination by allowing all of this. And then hundreds of them

00:21:42.020 have drowned and died, a record number, trying to cross into the U.S. once they get that far. It is a

00:21:47.480 disaster in every sense of the word for them, for the border towns, and for the United States. I urge

00:21:54.260 people, if they're interested, go to fullmeasure.news. My story that I aired on Sunday on my TV program

00:22:00.420 lays out all of this in great detail and has the video evidence, too. Well, and one of the things

00:22:06.660 addressed is, where's the wall and where's the effort to stop the people from walking into the

00:22:14.560 town? Like, why aren't we trying to stop that anymore? Because Border Patrol's not.

00:22:22.700 You know, one of the interesting things I found, I was there to see how the Texas state efforts were

00:22:28.600 working because Texas deployed 1,400 National Guard troops and all kinds of rangers and resources of

00:22:35.620 their own. And they've built 100 miles of their own barrier at their own expense to try to secure

00:22:41.660 the border. What did I learn? All of that money and effort simply goes to help process those who come

00:22:47.900 in because they don't have the authority legally to turn them back or arrest them. They have to turn

00:22:52.940 them over to Border Patrol. So all of that effort has resulted not in turning anybody away or

00:22:58.400 quelling the numbers, but in a helping hand, as it was called when I did an interview with an

00:23:03.560 official there, all the resources just providing more hands to process more people to come into

00:23:08.980 the United States. We have that. Actually, we have a soundbite from that. And again, we should check

00:23:13.840 it out at fullmeasure.news as well. But here's a bit. This is soundbite 8 from Cheryl's reporting.

00:23:18.060 So there's nothing that can be done technically right now to keep the numbers down, to keep people

00:23:25.720 from coming. No, ma'am. They have a free open range coming across the river right now. Do they

00:23:31.600 climb over the fence? No, they let them through. Border Patrol lets them through? Yeah. Like right now,

00:23:38.220 they've still got places where they haven't finished the fence. And they got gates. They let them

00:23:43.060 through. I've never seen anything like that. This has been here all my life. What do you attribute

00:23:50.000 that to? Mr. Biden. They're just letting them in. I'm very disappointed in the federal government,

00:24:01.000 to be honest. And I've opened the invitation to anyone in the administration, whether it be

00:24:06.840 president, vice president or one of his representatives to please come to Eagle Pass,

00:24:12.820 Texas. We are part of the United States. Here in Eagle Pass, you know, before our local firefighters

00:24:18.780 would have to deal with around 20, 25 drownings a year. Now they're dealing with over 30 drownings a

00:24:25.500 month. You know, pulling babies out of the water is not normal. My God. And can we just hear again,

00:24:34.220 this is the vice president of the United States who's been placed in charge

00:24:37.160 of securing the border. Here's her take on what's happening. Listen to it one more time.

00:24:43.300 Would you call the border secure?

00:24:45.940 I think that there is no question that we have to do what the president and I asked Congress to do is

00:24:53.060 the first request we make pass a bill to create a pathway to citizenship. The border is secure,

00:25:02.600 but we also have a broken immigration system in particular over the last four years before we

00:25:08.000 came in and it needs to be fixed. We're going to have 2 million people cross this border for the

00:25:12.060 first time ever. You're confident this border is secure?

00:25:16.220 We have a secure border in that that is a priority for any nation, including ours in our administration.

00:25:25.380 But there are still a lot of problems that we are trying to fix, given the deterioration that

00:25:32.880 happened over the last four years. What specifically? I mean, truly, what what is she talking about?

00:25:39.400 What did Trump do to make the border less secure? Her answer is basically what we need is amnesty,

00:25:45.160 which doesn't decrease immigration across the southern border. And we need to get rid of Trump,

00:25:52.440 which we did. Right. So she's blaming the four year four years prior. And it's secure in that it's

00:25:57.760 a priority. There's zero evidence that it's a priority. He's trying to undo the ability to turn

00:26:02.680 people back under the covid regulation right now. The only reason he hasn't done that is because of

00:26:06.080 the courts. You know, Trump's last year in office, those numbers came way down. They were still bad,

00:26:12.880 but something like four hundred thousand border encounters. Biden's first year in office,

00:26:17.300 one point two million. We're working on two million already this year with time left in the fiscal

00:26:23.040 year. And I can tell you, based on my investigation, one of the biggest immediate things that would make

00:26:28.360 a difference and did make a difference under President Trump was that remain in Mexico policy,

00:26:33.420 which said that if people wanted to claim asylum, they would wait for their court date in Mexico.

00:26:38.440 And Mexico agreed to that to take them. And that immediately stopped a lot of traffic because

00:26:43.360 nobody wants to go through what these poor people go through and pay the thousands of dollars and risk

00:26:48.660 their lives only to have to sit in Mexico. So immediately there was an effect with people not

00:26:54.280 trying to come and risk their lives and pay the cartels to come to the United States.

00:26:59.260 So that's that's a huge. People ask me what could be done. That is something that would have an

00:27:04.180 immediate impact based on what we've seen in the recent past that has made a big difference when

00:27:09.700 President Biden decided to stop that program. That's what Stephen Miller really believed in as

00:27:13.720 well. He was on the program saying that that was incredibly effective, the remain in Mexico.

00:27:18.300 Now you've got the Arizona governor, the Texas governor shipping busloads of immigrants to places

00:27:25.040 like Washington, D.C., Chicago, New York. And it's really been amazing to see the Democratic

00:27:30.980 politician reaction to this from those running these cities, which, like Chicago, declared itself a

00:27:36.940 sanctuary city. So what's its problem? Why doesn't it why doesn't it want all of these illegal

00:27:42.060 immigrants? You're supposed to say you love them. It's fine. You know, when they're down in Texas,

00:27:46.340 it's fine. When they're actually in Chicago on Mag Mile, they feel differently. There was the D.C.

00:27:52.340 council member who said, oh, what do you say? She's turning us into a border town. They're turning us

00:27:58.600 into a border town. Oh, how do you like it now? I mean, that's the whole point. Like, how do you see

00:28:03.840 federal policy when you are a border town, when you don't have the protection of the mass heartland

00:28:11.800 between you and this problem? Well, to me, it only makes rational sense to place the illegal

00:28:18.660 immigrants or the illegal border crossers who are waiting for a court date. It only makes sense to

00:28:23.340 place them in the sanctuary cities that have said that that they are welcome. I mean, that just

00:28:28.420 makes common sense to me. So it's hard to understand why they're so upset by it. But I will also tell

00:28:34.340 you, I spoke to for a story that will be airing soon, quite a few of the illegal border crossers who

00:28:40.520 came in, most of them from Venezuela, as it happens right now. And they want to go to these big cities.

00:28:46.960 I thought Texas was just sending them there or maybe kind of convincing them to go there. But when I

00:28:52.480 ask where they want to go, they say, New York, Chicago, big cities like that. And I asked why

00:28:58.920 it's well, something they've heard of, they know, they have friends and family who are already here

00:29:03.540 that they want to be around. So a lot of them want to go to the big cities. And for years,

00:29:07.900 as I've covered the border, and I've spoken to officials from towns along the border, they have

00:29:12.280 said exactly this, Megan, that every state in this country is technically a border town or becomes a

00:29:19.160 border town because they don't stay in Arizona and Texas. They fan out throughout the United States.

00:29:25.420 The numbers are no longer, as you know, insignificant when we're talking about millions

00:29:29.160 of people over a couple of years going to key regions and areas in this country. That is something

00:29:35.460 that's going to be felt in terms of resources and impact on schools and jobs and pretty much everything.

00:29:42.980 I'm telling you, if you are a Republican politician and you really want to stop this problem,

00:29:49.160 your main goal right now should be to get all of those people somehow working for Republican

00:29:55.760 politicians, for Republican policies. That is the only way the Democrats will crack down on this

00:30:00.940 problem. The only way to convince the Democrats to stop this because it's not crime that they may

00:30:08.500 commit or that may be committed against them. The loss of life with the drownings or the rapes

00:30:13.600 against these young girls. They don't care. All they care about is votes. And I'm telling you,

00:30:19.420 if I were a Republican politician, I'd say, great, let's do amnesty. And then I get every Republican

00:30:23.560 working for me to get these people registered Republicans and the problem would stop. Cynical,

00:30:28.880 but and somewhat humorous, tongue in cheek, but not a hundred percent. Cheryl, stand by. So much more

00:30:34.020 to get to. I want to talk about what happened with this Duke volleyball player who now who has accused

00:30:41.340 BYU fans of calling her the N word. The story has fallen apart and those in support of this player

00:30:49.260 are doubling down. So we'll get to that in just one second. Cheryl, Randy Weingarten is at it again

00:31:01.120 in an incredible burst of dishonesty, which she's been on a runoff lately when it comes to her role

00:31:07.680 and the teachers union's role in keeping schools closed during the pandemic. Whereas my kids made

00:31:13.460 me watch this movie Me Time over the weekend, which was hysterical with Kevin Hart, Mark Wahlberg,

00:31:19.940 the big pandy. That's how they referred to it during the big pandy. Okay. She tweets out yesterday.

00:31:27.240 Teachers want to teach. We have always known in-person is best. In the midst of great uncertainty,

00:31:36.120 we fought for safe in-person schooling. Now we're focused on helping kids recover and thrive,

00:31:43.880 regardless of what is thrown at us. That is who teachers are. Okay. Then she goes on to add

00:31:51.880 in this article that's being written about her. The charge of being pro-closure is complete

00:31:58.800 bullshit, she says, blaming Trump for not reopening the schools. She says this charge is completely

00:32:06.160 false and it's the kind of propaganda and demonization that they like to do. Pointing out

00:32:12.560 her union, the AFT first released reopening guidelines in April, 2020, including stipulations

00:32:18.260 like six feet of space, blah, blah, blah. We did the best we could. Okay. And then she goes on,

00:32:23.380 by the way, to add, I understand what the right wing is doing here. They hate public schools and

00:32:27.940 they hate unions. They always have. Okay. So this is just a blatant lie. Just a fact check. This is a

00:32:35.920 lie. We all lived it. Those of us who wanted to see the schools open for our children know exactly

00:32:40.880 who's to blame. And she is very high on that list. Here's just a couple of things. Okay. A couple of,

00:32:47.200 um, a couple of fact checks for yahoo.com that did a piece on her and a good example on how

00:32:54.560 cross-examination of a source who's misleading you might work. Um, September, 2020,

00:33:00.960 Weingarten said schools need guidelines like mandatory face coverings and strict social

00:33:05.060 distancing rules to reopen safely. If community spread is too high as it is in Missouri and

00:33:09.860 Mississippi, if you don't have the infrastructure of testing, if you don't have the safeguards that

00:33:13.500 prevent the spread of viruses in the school, we believe that you cannot reopen in person. Okay.

00:33:18.000 No one can prevent the spread of viruses period, right? So she's basically saying they cannot

00:33:21.920 reopen period January, 2021. She said along with the New York state United teachers president

00:33:26.960 joint statement, New York must return to remote learning. We have a moral duty to follow the

00:33:32.540 science and reopening. That's why New York schools should immediately go to remote learning. She goes

00:33:37.040 on the positive positivity triggers for a closing must be upheld. If they're exceeded, we must close

00:33:42.800 buildings and then redouble our efforts to crush community spread so they can reopening. She goes on

00:33:47.640 and on lobbying the CDC to tighten their policy on school reopenings. She thought they were too liberal

00:33:51.820 managing to include an opt out for schools in high transmission areas time and time again, Cheryl,

00:33:58.260 she was on the side of closing the schools, making them go remote unless they could meet impossible

00:34:05.640 standards that she knew very well they could never meet and that the children were the ones who would

00:34:11.580 suffer. And now she has the nerve to look us in the eye and tell us it was Trump. She was in favor

00:34:17.060 of reopening all along. Well, one of the most successful and incredible propaganda feats among many,

00:34:23.980 I think, in the last couple of years was this transformation. Because in the very beginning,

00:34:29.140 even government scientists and public health officials who later turned around were saying

00:34:34.000 kids were at least risk of having any serious effects that we really didn't need to worry about

00:34:40.060 them. We didn't need to shut the schools. That would be harmful. And the independent scientists who

00:34:44.860 proved to be more correct in the long run than many of these other public health officials

00:34:48.680 said that the schools never should have been shut down. We would have all been better off

00:34:52.780 if they had remained open. So there was this turnabout all of a sudden that happened in the

00:34:58.100 course of really just a couple of week period where all of the dialogue publicly went from saying

00:35:03.780 kids need not worry to all of a sudden kids were at this huge risk and we had to be frightened and

00:35:09.540 scared for the children. And out of that was born, of course, the school closings and a lot more.

00:35:14.540 I will point out, Megan, there are a lot of places that didn't shut the schools down. And I visited some

00:35:20.000 of them and did stories on them that had no ill effects or certainly nothing worse than what

00:35:25.340 happened when people shut the schools down. And yet they stayed open and didn't do the harm to the

00:35:31.560 kids. And there was no effort, it seemed to me, from some of these other school systems to look at

00:35:36.380 those results and see how much harmful disease did or didn't spread so that they had some hard facts

00:35:41.620 to go on. But there are places in America that didn't shut down their schools and did quite well.

00:35:46.420 Mm hmm. And now she because she was one of that crowd saying kids are resilient. They'll be fine.

00:35:54.320 Kids are resilient as though them not being a bunch of whiners who even necessarily have the words to

00:36:00.480 express how being socially alienated, being forced to wear the masks all the time, being forced to undergo

00:36:08.280 vaccines that they didn't need and so on. They didn't even have the words half of these kids to

00:36:12.560 express how it was damaging them as though their silence meant something for her side. She now comes

00:36:18.600 out and says, kids need a sense of joy. What they need right now, what's keeping me up at night

00:36:24.520 is, is that this year needs to be as joyful and as normal a year as possible. They need a sense

00:36:32.380 of normalcy. Some of us knew that all along. And she was a massive impediment to our ability to bring

00:36:42.920 that to the children. And it wasn't because we didn't care about their safety as their mothers.

00:36:48.460 It was because we understood that she was following some weird political line that had her supporting

00:36:54.580 teachers in Chicago who were totally able bodied, refusing to teach, even when the far left mayor

00:37:03.440 there said, get back into the classroom and do your jobs. And especially with kids of underprivileged

00:37:10.920 neighborhoods, black, brown kids, get in there and teach them. And these totally fine teachers who she

00:37:16.140 supported were out there dancing, Cheryl, doing interpretive dance to show us how they couldn't

00:37:22.080 possibly return to the classroom because it was just too risky to their health. We have the video

00:37:27.120 because I love it. Here it is.

00:37:32.440 Make it make sense.

00:37:38.100 Safety

00:37:38.500 is essential.

00:37:43.420 Oh my God.

00:37:44.060 Keep our students

00:37:46.100 and our teachers

00:37:48.220 safe.

00:37:52.080 They wouldn't go in.

00:37:56.280 They danced.

00:37:57.160 They wouldn't go in.

00:37:58.000 And people like Randy, that's her union, supported them.

00:38:01.660 And now she wants to lecture us about how the kids need normalcy and joy.

00:38:05.860 Well, and to try to dial back from all of that,

00:38:09.060 I fairly recently have seen kids

00:38:11.580 doing outdoor cross-country running,

00:38:14.340 wearing masks.

00:38:15.820 And I think some of them are wearing them

00:38:17.340 voluntarily now, not even required to do so.

00:38:19.860 How do you dial back from the fear

00:38:21.940 that was instilled in children needlessly

00:38:24.920 and then suddenly you turn around and try to tell them

00:38:27.640 or convince them that none of that was necessary?

00:38:30.280 I think that's going to be really hard to dial back from

00:38:33.200 for a lot of kids whose lives have been changed by the rhetoric

00:38:36.180 and the false information, really,

00:38:38.300 that was put out in some cases by public health officials.

00:38:41.240 Our pediatrician, who's as mainstream as they come,

00:38:44.460 told us that is dangerous.

00:38:46.440 Do not let your child run outdoors wearing a mask.

00:38:49.360 Period.

00:38:50.140 I haven't let it happen yet

00:38:51.440 and I wouldn't let it happen.

00:38:52.360 I don't think people, other people should let it happen.

00:38:54.140 That's insane.

00:38:55.720 All right.

00:38:56.300 Speaking of young people making big mistakes,

00:39:00.160 this BYU-Duke game

00:39:04.120 has turned into a massive national story

00:39:06.160 and there's just been an update.

00:39:07.300 So there was a BYU versus Duke University women's volleyball match

00:39:11.780 on August 26th, not quite a month ago,

00:39:16.140 a couple of weeks ago, actually,

00:39:17.540 and a Duke player reported hearing the N-word yelled at her,

00:39:21.660 she is black, while she served,

00:39:24.220 coming from the student section during two different sets.

00:39:26.820 So she says it happened repeatedly.

00:39:31.580 Let's see.

00:39:33.000 Okay.

00:39:33.120 So Lisa Pamplin tweeted that her goddaughter,

00:39:38.240 Duke outside hitter Rachel Richardson,

00:39:40.100 was called a racial slur every time she served during the match.

00:39:44.020 And Rachel Richardson has come out now

00:39:45.760 and said she was the one who allegedly heard this against her.

00:39:49.600 Lisa Pamplin has been her biggest supporter.

00:39:52.180 That's the godmother.

00:39:53.340 She also said Richardson was, quote,

00:39:54.960 threatened by a white male

00:39:56.640 who told her to watch her back going to the team bus.

00:40:00.000 Richardson's father said a student was yelling racial slurs

00:40:03.680 towards his daughter,

00:40:04.760 but was allowed to remain at the match.

00:40:06.800 BYU initially apologized to Duke,

00:40:09.120 banned the student,

00:40:10.240 who was accused of yelling the racial slurs,

00:40:12.400 and then Rachel Richardson later posted a three-page slide

00:40:15.380 describing the incident on Twitter

00:40:16.800 with a hashtag,

00:40:18.300 more than a volleyball player,

00:40:20.460 talking about how her fellow African-American teammates

00:40:23.000 and she were targeted,

00:40:24.380 they were racially heckled,

00:40:25.620 and they felt unsafe.

00:40:27.560 Both the officials and BYU coaching staff

00:40:30.140 were made aware, she says,

00:40:31.460 but failed to take the necessary steps

00:40:34.160 to stop the behavior.

00:40:36.040 So the officials and the coaching staff.

00:40:38.060 Then she goes on to say the BYU athletic director,

00:40:40.400 he did the right thing.

00:40:42.720 He was quick to act respectfully and genuinely.

00:40:46.200 He's at the forefront of ensuring

00:40:47.320 the BYU athletic staff and players

00:40:49.280 undergo education now

00:40:51.260 and training to better handle

00:40:53.720 and prevent the racist, ignorant,

00:40:56.180 and asinine behaviors

00:40:57.140 that were exhibited by their fans during the match.

00:40:59.940 So now the players and the staff,

00:41:02.620 according to her,

00:41:03.200 have to undergo training

00:41:05.580 to better handle racist fans.

00:41:08.880 Well, guess what?

00:41:09.940 BYU did a comprehensive investigation.

00:41:11.900 They spoke with the man

00:41:12.580 who allegedly yelled the racial slurs.

00:41:14.240 They looked at every single video

00:41:15.480 they could get their hands on.

00:41:16.420 They watched the man during the entire time

00:41:18.040 this young woman was serving.

00:41:19.080 Both times, all times.

00:41:21.020 They spoke with witnesses,

00:41:22.400 black, white, everyone.

00:41:23.660 They spoke with Duke fans

00:41:24.520 who were right near the guy.

00:41:26.160 Exhaustive.

00:41:27.420 And they say,

00:41:28.960 the video shows this banned fan

00:41:30.580 scrolling his phone and not talking

00:41:32.080 during Richardson's serving

00:41:34.740 when she said the Rachel taunts began.

00:41:38.560 They did not find any evidence

00:41:40.760 of racial slurs being yelled

00:41:44.060 at this woman whatsoever,

00:41:46.060 nor toward any Blue Devils player.

00:41:48.360 That's the Duke mascot,

00:41:49.860 basically saying this didn't happen.

00:41:52.360 She was either confused

00:41:53.280 or she made it up,

00:41:54.720 but it didn't happen.

00:41:56.480 They've apologized to the fan now

00:41:58.260 who was, you know,

00:41:59.820 being said to be the perpetrator.

00:42:02.760 And everybody's standing by their story.

00:42:05.540 The woman hasn't backed down.

00:42:07.100 Her aunt has come out.

00:42:08.200 The godmother has come out and said,

00:42:10.000 I expected this.

00:42:11.680 You know, of course,

00:42:12.280 they're going to stand by

00:42:13.340 and they're not going to recognize racism

00:42:14.740 when it's right there.

00:42:15.360 Like, there's no more fact finding, Cheryl.

00:42:18.240 It's just, no, I believe it.

00:42:20.620 And even though the evidence shows

00:42:23.240 it did not happen,

00:42:24.600 we can't let go of the narrative.

00:42:27.040 Well, the canonization of people

00:42:29.500 who claim to be victims of something

00:42:31.220 has led to more people,

00:42:32.800 I think, claiming to be victims of something.

00:42:35.240 And they're rewarded for it,

00:42:36.820 whether or not it's true or not.

00:42:38.520 In the end,

00:42:39.280 let me read you a couple of examples,

00:42:40.540 which I put on my website.

00:42:43.180 A week before Trump was elected,

00:42:45.160 Hopewell Missionary Baptist Church

00:42:46.580 in Mississippi was torched

00:42:47.840 and the words Vote Trump

00:42:48.900 found painted on the outside.

00:42:50.980 Mayor condemned the incident

00:42:51.940 as a hate crime,

00:42:53.360 but skip ahead that

00:42:54.660 that it turns out to be

00:42:56.900 that that was a staged attack

00:42:59.140 to look like an attack

00:43:00.680 by Trump supporters

00:43:01.700 staged by a member of the church

00:43:03.760 who happened to be black.

00:43:05.180 The day after Trump was elected,

00:43:06.940 there was an incident

00:43:07.680 in North Carolina

00:43:08.780 made national news.

00:43:09.700 Hispanic students found

00:43:10.620 a hateful note

00:43:11.240 written on the classroom whiteboard

00:43:12.840 reading bye-bye Latinos.

00:43:15.060 After the story made national news,

00:43:17.000 it was learned that a Latino student

00:43:18.720 wrote the message on the board.

00:43:21.380 He was upset about

00:43:22.140 the results of the election.

00:43:23.440 I have a whole list of these.

00:43:25.540 Sadly, the assumption

00:43:27.340 almost has to be today

00:43:28.760 that when somebody claims

00:43:30.140 to be a victim

00:43:30.840 of something like that,

00:43:32.360 absent clear evidence,

00:43:34.040 you have to consider the possibility

00:43:36.300 that it's not true

00:43:37.240 because so often it's not.

00:43:39.920 And again, like you say,

00:43:41.500 people standing by their story

00:43:43.220 in the face of lack of evidence

00:43:46.180 or evidence to the contrary,

00:43:48.500 you know,

00:43:49.540 it's just a sad time, really.

00:43:52.220 Yeah, it is a very sad time.

00:43:53.800 And meanwhile,

00:43:54.160 this godmother

00:43:54.840 has had so many,

00:43:57.860 so many racist,

00:43:59.340 racist tweets of her own

00:44:00.880 calling white people

00:44:02.620 crappy ass crackers

00:44:04.200 and they're scary

00:44:05.440 talking about,

00:44:07.320 it was about the

00:44:08.420 Uvalde shooting

00:44:09.440 saying,

00:44:10.660 faux news,

00:44:11.800 breathing a sigh of relief.

00:44:12.700 It's not a white kid.

00:44:13.660 You poor white mother effers

00:44:15.520 can't take it.

00:44:17.560 Ain't watching this

00:44:18.780 Cracker Barrel bullshit.

00:44:21.200 Why does CNN

00:44:22.340 constantly interview

00:44:23.100 these dumbass white women?

00:44:25.520 I mean, I could keep going.

00:44:27.020 Like this,

00:44:27.820 this,

00:44:28.320 this is the person

00:44:28.980 who's speaking

00:44:29.540 on behalf of the alleged victim.

00:44:32.140 And by the way,

00:44:34.020 they,

00:44:34.380 they did find

00:44:35.260 that,

00:44:35.860 um,

00:44:36.800 the students

00:44:37.480 who were yelling

00:44:38.280 screamed at every Duke player

00:44:39.820 as college kids do

00:44:40.820 at all the ball games,

00:44:42.020 trying to distract,

00:44:42.880 trying to make you

00:44:43.360 not make it.

00:44:44.820 And,

00:44:45.340 um,

00:44:45.560 not a racial slur,

00:44:46.960 but they were reportedly

00:44:48.880 yelling

00:44:49.420 the Duke players

00:44:50.800 first names.

00:44:51.720 Like if you were up there,

00:44:52.820 they'd be like,

00:44:53.480 choke,

00:44:54.900 Cheryl,

00:44:55.520 you know,

00:44:55.880 you can't do it,

00:44:56.600 Cheryl,

00:44:57.040 you stink.

00:44:57.980 And there was one

00:44:59.240 whose name was Nikki.

00:45:01.180 Nikki.

00:45:02.500 And so there's some speculation

00:45:04.260 about whether she

00:45:05.420 heard Nikki

00:45:06.780 and instead

00:45:08.040 mistook that

00:45:09.060 for the N word

00:45:10.200 in some crazy way.

00:45:11.880 But look,

00:45:13.700 when they come to you

00:45:15.000 and say,

00:45:15.380 look at all the videos,

00:45:16.580 we have video

00:45:17.460 of the people

00:45:17.940 you say were doing it.

00:45:19.220 He's literally

00:45:20.080 scrolling his phone

00:45:20.760 the whole time.

00:45:21.980 There is no one,

00:45:22.920 including black Duke fans

00:45:24.760 who were seated,

00:45:25.700 who seated

00:45:26.060 right next to these people

00:45:27.360 who heard what you heard.

00:45:29.180 Okay.

00:45:29.500 So it didn't happen.

00:45:32.040 You're going to have

00:45:32.620 to get over it.

00:45:33.600 We understand you believed it.

00:45:34.860 We're going to accept

00:45:35.420 that you had a good faith belief,

00:45:36.680 but no,

00:45:37.760 you can't do that.

00:45:38.440 And the media,

00:45:39.440 Cheryl,

00:45:39.880 as usual,

00:45:40.700 is no better.

00:45:42.200 Looking at how the media

00:45:43.360 handled this,

00:45:44.700 like in the

00:45:45.360 Jussie Smollett story,

00:45:47.780 they just ran with it.

00:45:49.240 They loved it.

00:45:49.960 And what they did

00:45:51.320 was assume it was true

00:45:53.160 and continue repeating

00:45:55.280 what an awful racist

00:45:56.500 incident had happened

00:45:57.820 at,

00:45:58.900 you know,

00:46:00.480 from BYU,

00:46:01.520 MSNBC.

00:46:02.480 Racism on display

00:46:03.260 at Brigham Young Friday

00:46:04.200 fits a historical pattern.

00:46:06.960 USA Today's

00:46:07.820 race and inequity editor,

00:46:09.700 Mike Freeman,

00:46:10.560 he wrote that

00:46:11.380 Richardson was a hero

00:46:12.440 surrounded by a lot of people

00:46:13.540 who failed her.

00:46:15.020 ESPN

00:46:15.620 said that

00:46:16.860 Richardson endured

00:46:17.640 racial abuse

00:46:18.420 from the fans.

00:46:19.620 She has the term

00:46:20.440 anti-racist

00:46:21.080 in her Twitter bio,

00:46:21.780 by the way.

00:46:22.500 The media piles on

00:46:23.400 because they

00:46:23.960 love stories like this.

00:46:27.080 Well,

00:46:27.200 the accusations,

00:46:28.480 the false accusations

00:46:29.600 are themselves

00:46:30.860 racist in nature

00:46:32.180 and certainly

00:46:33.300 deserve some sort

00:46:34.260 of mitigation

00:46:34.720 or apology

00:46:35.420 when it's revealed

00:46:36.220 that they were not true.

00:46:38.300 And yet,

00:46:38.700 it's hardly ever

00:46:39.720 followed by that

00:46:40.520 kind of response.

00:46:42.260 Mm-hmm.

00:46:42.780 Yeah,

00:46:42.940 the media won't be

00:46:43.620 apologizing the same way

00:46:45.100 this godmother

00:46:45.920 won't be apologizing.

00:46:47.600 And so she's just

00:46:48.740 going to continue

00:46:49.240 saying it happened.

00:46:50.300 And this poor guy,

00:46:51.320 who was accused,

00:46:52.820 is going to have

00:46:53.360 to live under this.

00:46:54.120 If I were this guy,

00:46:55.020 I'd be filing a lawsuit

00:46:56.100 ASAP.

00:46:57.660 Cheryl,

00:46:58.060 thank you so great,

00:46:58.960 so much.

00:46:59.380 It's been so great

00:47:00.060 speaking with you

00:47:00.620 and seeing you again.

00:47:02.220 Thank you for having me.

00:47:04.140 We're going to have

00:47:04.700 more on victimhood

00:47:05.440 coming up

00:47:05.920 by the guy

00:47:06.420 who's literally

00:47:06.920 just written the book

00:47:07.640 on it,

00:47:07.960 Vivek Ramaswamy.

00:47:09.260 And remember,

00:47:10.160 you can find

00:47:10.600 The Megyn Kelly Show

00:47:11.340 live on SiriusXM

00:47:12.420 Triumph Channel 111

00:47:13.540 every weekday at noon east

00:47:14.780 in the full video show

00:47:15.600 and clips

00:47:15.980 by subscribing

00:47:17.000 to our YouTube channel,

00:47:18.160 youtube.com

00:47:18.980 slash Megyn Kelly.

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00:47:22.280 go ahead and follow us

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00:47:26.820 your podcasts

00:47:27.340 for free.

00:47:28.620 And there you'll find

00:47:29.340 our full archives,

00:47:30.560 more than 385 shows.

00:47:32.940 Our next guest is

00:47:38.500 Vivek Ramaswamy,

00:47:39.980 tech entrepreneur

00:47:40.680 and author of the new book

00:47:42.060 Nation of Victims,

00:47:44.260 Identity Politics,

00:47:45.780 The Death of Merit,

00:47:47.140 and The Path

00:47:47.900 Back to Excellence,

00:47:49.720 which is out tomorrow.

00:47:51.420 Please support Vivek

00:47:52.880 and buy this book.

00:47:54.600 Welcome back to the show,

00:47:55.520 Vivek.

00:47:55.760 Great to have you.

00:47:56.700 Good to be on, Megan.

00:47:57.280 How are you?

00:47:58.500 I'm very well.

00:47:59.780 It's not that you need

00:48:00.800 the money,

00:48:01.280 it's that the viewers

00:48:02.540 need to listen

00:48:03.380 to the message.

00:48:04.380 That's what's important

00:48:05.540 because you outline

00:48:06.660 the problem brilliantly,

00:48:09.060 brilliantly,

00:48:09.860 calling people out

00:48:10.740 on their nonsense

00:48:11.200 and sort of diagnosing

00:48:13.040 how we got here

00:48:14.400 and how it needs to stop,

00:48:17.200 how it needs to stop.

00:48:18.160 Give us an overview.

00:48:19.340 So my basic thesis

00:48:20.300 in the book

00:48:20.680 is I actually pick up

00:48:21.560 where I left off

00:48:22.500 my last book,

00:48:23.520 Woke Inc.,

00:48:24.200 which was about

00:48:25.320 the curious merger

00:48:26.440 of political and social agendas

00:48:27.980 with corporate America's interests.

00:48:29.540 But the conclusion

00:48:31.220 I came to the end of the book

00:48:32.000 is it takes two to tango, right?

00:48:33.600 Companies cannot get away

00:48:35.080 with politicizing their agendas

00:48:36.460 if their customer bases

00:48:38.120 don't ultimately want

00:48:39.160 to go along with them.

00:48:40.740 And so what I do

00:48:41.160 in the new book

00:48:41.620 is I ask the question

00:48:42.660 of what's actually going on

00:48:43.780 in our culture.

00:48:45.140 And I think where I left

00:48:46.140 Woke Inc. off

00:48:46.740 was with the idea

00:48:47.840 that there is a vacuum

00:48:48.960 of national identity

00:48:50.420 in America.

00:48:51.380 There is a hunger

00:48:52.280 for purpose

00:48:53.400 and meaning

00:48:53.920 and identity

00:48:54.520 that isn't filled

00:48:55.720 by the cheap fast food

00:48:57.820 that corporations feed us.

00:48:59.140 But what can we fill

00:49:01.120 that void with instead?

00:49:02.860 Well, right now,

00:49:03.300 the case I make in the book

00:49:04.140 is victimhood narratives.

00:49:05.960 One's identity as a victim

00:49:07.220 has become America's

00:49:08.620 new national identity.

00:49:10.360 Black victims,

00:49:11.400 white victims,

00:49:12.820 liberal victims,

00:49:13.660 conservative victims.

00:49:15.040 As a first generation American,

00:49:16.460 I see it in second generation

00:49:17.740 Asian Americans

00:49:18.660 and Indian Americans too.

00:49:20.180 Victimhood has become

00:49:21.080 America's new national identity.

00:49:22.900 It's a currency.

00:49:24.020 It's like a currency

00:49:24.960 that's trading at a bubble

00:49:26.060 and people are cashing in

00:49:27.460 while the bubble is trading

00:49:28.300 at an all-time high.

00:49:29.840 But the case I make

00:49:30.560 in the book

00:49:31.060 is that what we really need

00:49:32.520 is to fill that void

00:49:33.500 with a different

00:49:34.880 national identity instead,

00:49:36.260 a national identity

00:49:36.960 based on the shared

00:49:38.020 pursuit of excellence.

00:49:40.060 It is the reason

00:49:40.680 why most immigrants

00:49:41.440 come to this country.

00:49:42.360 It is the reason

00:49:42.880 why my parents

00:49:43.740 came to this country.

00:49:45.240 But the path

00:49:45.940 from one to the other

00:49:46.880 is a complicated one

00:49:48.180 and it runs through

00:49:49.260 some uncomfortable places.

00:49:51.000 And that's a big part

00:49:51.900 of what it took

00:49:52.800 a book to explore.

00:49:54.400 And that's why

00:49:54.940 I chose to write it.

00:49:56.260 I didn't think

00:49:56.600 I was going to write

00:49:56.980 a second book this soon,

00:49:58.140 but I think of it

00:49:58.820 as a sort of sequel

00:49:59.640 to Woke Ink,

00:50:00.780 asking ourselves

00:50:01.620 how we can fill

00:50:02.500 that vacuum

00:50:03.080 of national identity

00:50:03.900 with something

00:50:04.900 more meaningful

00:50:05.620 that doesn't just

00:50:06.340 criticize the poison,

00:50:07.840 but hopefully dilutes

00:50:08.900 it to irrelevance

00:50:09.900 by filling it

00:50:10.560 with something

00:50:11.000 I think far more rich

00:50:11.940 and meaningful instead,

00:50:13.540 which is this

00:50:14.160 shared national identity

00:50:15.600 that I propose built

00:50:16.540 on the shared

00:50:17.340 pursuit of excellence.

00:50:18.940 I'm thinking about

00:50:19.380 Sheryl Sandberg

00:50:20.100 and her book Lean In,

00:50:21.260 which encouraged people

00:50:22.160 to work hard

00:50:22.960 and go for it

00:50:23.640 and make sure

00:50:24.580 you have a seat

00:50:25.080 at the table

00:50:25.520 and don't just say

00:50:26.400 like, oh, I can't

00:50:27.480 or, you know,

00:50:28.180 force yourself

00:50:28.600 to raise your hand

00:50:29.420 and be the one.

00:50:30.480 And then Michelle Obama

00:50:31.360 coming out and saying,

00:50:32.380 you know, basically,

00:50:33.080 you know, that shit

00:50:33.680 that doesn't work.

00:50:34.900 Like sort of speaking

00:50:36.320 that pushing back

00:50:37.100 on behalf of people

00:50:38.340 of color, like,

00:50:39.560 OK, rich white lady,

00:50:40.760 you don't understand

00:50:41.780 that that doesn't work.

00:50:42.540 Meanwhile, Sheryl,

00:50:43.380 I think her dad

00:50:43.860 was an orthodontist.

00:50:44.700 It wasn't like she was

00:50:45.460 she couldn't pay

00:50:46.260 her family bills

00:50:46.880 when she was growing up,

00:50:47.620 but she's gone on

00:50:48.180 to become one of

00:50:49.700 the richest women

00:50:50.340 in the world.

00:50:51.080 Thanks for her own

00:50:52.080 hard work.

00:50:53.040 All right.

00:50:53.220 And with all due respect

00:50:54.120 to Michelle Obama,

00:50:55.120 she wound up

00:50:55.940 at Harvard Law School.

00:50:57.720 She was Princeton undergrad.

00:50:59.200 She was at a white shoe

00:51:00.460 firm in Chicago.

00:51:02.040 She did pretty well

00:51:02.760 for herself in America, too.

00:51:05.140 But, you know,

00:51:06.200 she sort of tried

00:51:07.000 to push back

00:51:07.620 on the push for excellence

00:51:08.580 being like it's harder

00:51:10.200 if your skin

00:51:11.780 is a certain color.

00:51:13.540 Well, the problem is

00:51:14.500 it's what I call

00:51:15.240 kind of the Heisenberg

00:51:16.200 principle in quantum physics.

00:51:18.240 It's the social

00:51:19.160 equivalent of that.

00:51:20.160 So what does the Heisenberg

00:51:21.060 principle in quantum physics say?

00:51:22.800 It says that you can't

00:51:23.600 measure a phenomenon

00:51:24.720 like the spin of an electron

00:51:26.060 while also actually

00:51:28.280 not changing the way

00:51:29.840 the electron itself spins.

00:51:31.340 So the two are

00:51:32.080 inextricably linked

00:51:33.360 to one another.

00:51:33.840 This is what we learned

00:51:34.420 from in quantum mechanics.

00:51:35.900 The principle

00:51:36.340 in the social world

00:51:37.400 is effectively

00:51:38.040 you cannot at once

00:51:39.760 describe the social world

00:51:41.500 without actually affecting

00:51:43.000 the way that social reality works.

00:51:45.380 And so that's a long way

00:51:46.480 of saying that

00:51:46.940 when we describe ourselves

00:51:48.220 as victims,

00:51:49.440 victims defined

00:51:50.220 in the form of

00:51:50.800 racial identity politics

00:51:51.880 or gender identity politics

00:51:53.760 or even partisan politics

00:51:55.020 that actually contributes

00:51:56.560 to the world you create.

00:51:58.580 And so in some ways

00:51:59.320 what Michelle Obama says

00:52:01.480 may become true

00:52:02.640 because the people

00:52:03.400 who listen to her

00:52:04.060 and she herself

00:52:04.660 think of herself that way

00:52:06.020 and they are a victim

00:52:06.740 of their own self-conception,

00:52:09.440 of their own vision,

00:52:10.400 of their own identity.

00:52:11.660 And I think if you deny

00:52:12.640 yourself human agency,

00:52:14.080 then indeed you lack

00:52:14.960 human agency.

00:52:16.120 It's not because

00:52:16.580 somebody else shackled you though.

00:52:17.760 It's because you were

00:52:18.320 shackled by your own

00:52:20.080 psychological need

00:52:21.540 to view yourself

00:52:22.820 as a victim.

00:52:23.640 So one way or another

00:52:24.640 as I say in the book,

00:52:26.080 we see ourselves

00:52:26.660 as victims of one another

00:52:27.620 but the reality is

00:52:28.540 we're victims of ourselves.

00:52:30.540 And I think it's the

00:52:31.220 question of human agency

00:52:32.960 that's at the heart

00:52:33.780 of the book,

00:52:34.200 at the heart of identity

00:52:34.960 is to say that

00:52:35.720 either you are

00:52:36.680 an immutable agent

00:52:38.240 on a tectonic plate

00:52:39.440 of group identity,

00:52:40.640 a prisoner of whatever direction

00:52:42.020 that tectonic plate moves,

00:52:43.380 or you're an agent

00:52:44.440 that can define for yourself

00:52:46.240 your destiny in the world

00:52:47.780 through your own hard work,

00:52:49.400 your own commitment,

00:52:50.660 your own dedication.

00:52:52.160 That's the path, right?

00:52:53.200 That's the case for identity

00:52:54.280 I make in the book.

00:52:54.920 It's the case for American identity

00:52:55.980 I make in the book.

00:52:57.260 I think that's actually

00:52:58.000 the vision that unites us

00:52:59.620 or once united us

00:53:00.500 as Americans.

00:53:01.440 I think it can be so again,

00:53:03.180 but the path to get there

00:53:04.420 isn't going to be easy

00:53:05.080 from where we're starting today.

00:53:06.480 Well, while I'm on Michelle Obama,

00:53:07.580 she's kind of a good example

00:53:08.540 of all this

00:53:09.140 because she,

00:53:10.500 so she claimed

00:53:12.580 that she was the victim of racism

00:53:13.820 sort of infamously

00:53:15.540 while she was first lady.

00:53:17.260 She said that she was in a store

00:53:18.740 and that somebody

00:53:19.900 didn't recognize

00:53:20.620 that she was the first lady

00:53:21.700 and thinking she was a staffer

00:53:24.520 at what was like a Walmart

00:53:25.940 or something like that,

00:53:27.220 asked her to get the person

00:53:28.760 something off the top shelf.

00:53:30.420 Meanwhile,

00:53:31.280 it's Michelle Obama is tall

00:53:33.300 and she described this woman

00:53:34.320 as short

00:53:34.880 and it was completely reasonable

00:53:37.100 that the person saw

00:53:37.960 a taller person

00:53:38.900 and said,

00:53:39.240 hey, would you help me out

00:53:40.000 as many of us have done over time?

00:53:42.860 And Michelle Obama

00:53:43.500 had already told that story

00:53:44.780 in a funny, lighthearted way

00:53:46.340 and apparently forgotten,

00:53:47.600 not claiming to be the victim

00:53:48.900 of racism

00:53:49.820 on a late night show.

00:53:51.380 But she got in front of

00:53:52.360 one of the historically

00:53:53.640 black college audience

00:53:54.660 for a graduation speech

00:53:55.620 and told it like,

00:53:56.580 I too am a victim.

00:53:58.340 I have been the victim of racism.

00:54:00.120 And the media

00:54:00.940 on the right wing start,

00:54:02.020 you know,

00:54:02.160 are like who had long memories

00:54:03.540 were like,

00:54:04.340 no,

00:54:05.660 you can't get away with that.

00:54:07.000 And honestly,

00:54:07.740 remember,

00:54:08.080 she she had some negative pushback

00:54:10.300 because she said

00:54:11.760 when her husband

00:54:12.360 got nominated

00:54:13.080 or when he won,

00:54:13.920 it was the first time

00:54:14.540 in her adult life

00:54:15.660 she was truly proud

00:54:16.440 of her country.

00:54:17.220 And even on Friday,

00:54:19.020 Vivek,

00:54:19.380 even on Friday,

00:54:20.240 Thursday or Friday,

00:54:20.860 whichever it was,

00:54:21.380 when they unveiled

00:54:22.020 the Obama's official portraits,

00:54:24.760 you know,

00:54:25.360 his his painting and hers,

00:54:27.040 even in that setting,

00:54:28.400 she's been first lady twice.

00:54:30.380 Her husband was reelected.

00:54:31.720 He was elected.

00:54:32.220 He was reelected.

00:54:32.940 People want her

00:54:33.680 to be the next president

00:54:35.400 in large numbers.

00:54:37.360 She had to go there

00:54:38.560 about herself

00:54:40.040 and our country.

00:54:41.760 Here she is.

00:54:42.280 This is SOT 13.

00:54:44.620 So for me,

00:54:45.720 this day is not just about

00:54:47.560 what has happened.

00:54:49.200 It's also about

00:54:50.580 what could happen

00:54:51.760 because a girl like me,

00:54:54.780 she was never supposed

00:54:56.780 to be up there

00:54:57.880 next to Jacqueline

00:54:58.880 Kennedy and Dolly Madison.

00:55:01.500 She was never supposed

00:55:02.780 to live in this house

00:55:04.040 and she definitely

00:55:05.220 wasn't supposed to serve

00:55:06.560 as first lady.

00:55:09.040 To me,

00:55:09.840 it felt unseemly to go.

00:55:11.500 It's an America bash.

00:55:12.460 That's what it is.

00:55:13.020 It was on Wednesday.

00:55:14.180 Well,

00:55:14.640 the thing that she misses

00:55:15.560 is that the woman

00:55:17.120 that looks like her

00:55:18.100 did live in the White House

00:55:19.520 for eight years.

00:55:20.500 And at some point,

00:55:21.460 there may have been

00:55:22.320 a point in our history,

00:55:23.420 somewhere measured

00:55:24.200 in centuries

00:55:25.280 plus decades ago,

00:55:27.000 where that may have been

00:55:27.820 an appropriate conversation

00:55:28.940 to reckon with the past.

00:55:30.480 But at some point,

00:55:31.520 we ultimately have to engage

00:55:33.380 in mutual forgiveness

00:55:34.840 and decide that

00:55:35.680 we are going to move on.

00:55:36.820 That's actually the heart

00:55:37.300 of the case I make in the book.

00:55:38.500 The path from victimhood

00:55:39.640 to excellence

00:55:40.700 runs through forgiveness.

00:55:42.880 And that's uncomfortable terrain

00:55:44.000 for a lot of people,

00:55:45.320 but it's very difficult

00:55:46.080 to give up your status

00:55:47.820 as a victim.

00:55:48.940 So there's a game theory

00:55:49.840 problem here even.

00:55:50.860 I don't mean to be

00:55:51.700 too philosophical about this,

00:55:52.980 but one of the cases

00:55:54.220 I make in the book

00:55:54.740 is Immanuel Kant

00:55:56.040 actually talked about

00:55:57.300 a paradox of fishermen

00:55:58.640 where at the end of the day,

00:56:00.780 if you want to fish,

00:56:02.060 if you have a community

00:56:02.580 of fishermen,

00:56:03.140 if you overfish,

00:56:04.580 everyone ends up

00:56:05.320 with less fish.

00:56:06.500 But every fisherman

00:56:07.660 still has an incentive

00:56:08.980 to be able to overfish himself.

00:56:11.640 But his reason

00:56:12.480 for not doing it

00:56:13.380 is that ultimately

00:56:14.480 the whole community

00:56:15.240 would suffer

00:56:16.040 if he took advantage

00:56:16.800 of that for himself.

00:56:18.160 I draw an analogy

00:56:19.280 to the tales of victimhood

00:56:21.300 that we now tell

00:56:22.220 because when somebody

00:56:23.020 gets a competitive advantage

00:56:24.380 from seeing themselves

00:56:25.580 or describing themselves

00:56:26.660 and holding themselves

00:56:27.460 out as a victim

00:56:28.060 through an affirmative action program

00:56:29.580 to get into college,

00:56:30.480 whatever the case may be,

00:56:31.600 everyone loses out.

00:56:33.080 Our national identity

00:56:33.980 is the air is sucked out of it.

00:56:36.360 The size of our economic pie

00:56:37.780 is reduced.

00:56:38.260 So everyone is left

00:56:40.140 as a net loser

00:56:41.040 in the collective

00:56:42.100 when we each individually

00:56:43.300 describe ourselves

00:56:43.960 as a victim.

00:56:44.800 But when you have

00:56:45.360 the incentive structure

00:56:46.180 culturally that's been set up

00:56:47.320 that at the end of the day,

00:56:48.280 victimhood is what

00:56:48.920 gives you cultural power.

00:56:50.560 It is what gives you

00:56:51.300 cultural relevance.

00:56:52.260 Sometimes it actually pays

00:56:53.260 literally,

00:56:53.960 quite literally,

00:56:54.520 financially

00:56:54.800 to be a victim,

00:56:56.240 then it's a collective

00:56:57.620 action problem

00:56:58.240 where everyone

00:56:58.860 has an incentive

00:56:59.660 to describe themselves

00:57:00.420 as a victim.

00:57:01.360 But at the end of the day,

00:57:02.520 it's our national identity

00:57:03.920 and the decline

00:57:05.140 of our nation as a whole

00:57:06.160 that we see

00:57:06.940 as the net result

00:57:07.820 of that game theory problem.

00:57:10.040 And so there's numerous ways

00:57:11.660 to surface this.

00:57:12.360 And you see it,

00:57:12.880 by the way,

00:57:13.100 it's not just Michelle Obama.

00:57:14.100 You see Kamala Harris.

00:57:14.960 I was even just listening

00:57:15.640 to that clip, Megan.

00:57:16.440 I was remembering the moment

00:57:17.340 where she was in that debate

00:57:18.520 with Joe Biden

00:57:19.260 and described herself

00:57:20.480 as that girl

00:57:21.960 in the context

00:57:22.840 of busing

00:57:23.580 and desegregation.

00:57:25.520 People forget

00:57:26.120 this is a woman

00:57:27.020 whose two parents

00:57:27.960 were both tenured professors

00:57:29.680 in the United States

00:57:31.380 and her own

00:57:32.640 academic achievements,

00:57:33.480 unfortunately,

00:57:34.600 did not match up

00:57:35.380 to actually what

00:57:35.960 the cards that she was dealt

00:57:37.700 is, you know,

00:57:38.600 that wasn't supposed

00:57:39.520 to be a woman

00:57:40.640 that ended up

00:57:42.440 in the White House.

00:57:42.940 Michelle Obama says,

00:57:43.780 look at Kamala Harris.

00:57:44.740 That was supposed to be

00:57:45.800 a woman that actually

00:57:46.520 was well-educated

00:57:47.320 and performed academically well

00:57:48.680 like her older sister

00:57:49.460 did going to Stanford Law School.

00:57:50.540 I mean, unfortunately,

00:57:52.300 Kamala could not actually

00:57:53.140 step into those same shoes herself

00:57:54.360 so she had to invent

00:57:55.500 this victimhood narrative

00:57:56.560 instead,

00:57:57.600 reinventing the idea

00:57:58.200 as though she weren't

00:57:59.340 children of two tenured

00:58:00.700 professors of liberal arts

00:58:02.020 universities,

00:58:02.700 of top tier liberal arts

00:58:03.420 universities.

00:58:03.960 And so, you know,

00:58:04.860 one of the things

00:58:05.200 that I talk about

00:58:06.240 in the book,

00:58:06.680 you were just talking

00:58:07.200 about the Duke-BYU

00:58:08.100 example earlier,

00:58:09.080 that's going to get

00:58:09.720 dismissed soon

00:58:10.320 as a conservative

00:58:10.920 talking point.

00:58:12.140 There's just a small

00:58:12.900 fake hate crime hoax

00:58:14.380 that was dismissed

00:58:15.200 as a conservative

00:58:16.340 talking point.

00:58:17.500 Actually, in the first

00:58:18.220 chapter of the book,

00:58:18.840 one of the things

00:58:19.220 I detail is

00:58:19.840 how many countless

00:58:21.040 examples we have seen

00:58:22.620 of these alleged

00:58:23.860 hate crime hoaxes

00:58:25.120 of academics

00:58:26.040 who claim to fake

00:58:27.580 their race,

00:58:28.280 who claim to be one race

00:58:29.460 but not be another.

00:58:31.120 This is an epidemic.

00:58:32.380 And I think the question

00:58:33.340 we have to ask

00:58:33.920 is not to just

00:58:34.460 partisanize it

00:58:35.140 and point fingers,

00:58:36.380 but just psychologically.

00:58:37.660 What is going on

00:58:38.600 in the national psyche

00:58:39.580 that makes this

00:58:40.420 not a one-off incident,

00:58:41.880 but a repeatable pattern,

00:58:43.440 a psychological epidemic

00:58:44.860 of people going

00:58:45.580 to the full length

00:58:46.260 of falsely reporting

00:58:47.440 what happened to them

00:58:48.700 as a victim

00:58:49.540 of a hate crime

00:58:50.220 or falsely reporting

00:58:51.380 their racial identity?

00:58:52.640 It's an interesting

00:58:53.380 moment to take a step

00:58:54.360 back and just reflect

00:58:55.180 on what is it

00:58:56.300 in our national psyche

00:58:57.240 and our collective

00:58:58.200 incentive structure

00:58:58.900 that we've set up

00:58:59.600 that causes this type

00:59:00.920 of behavior

00:59:01.280 to repeat itself

00:59:02.160 over the last several years.

00:59:03.840 It's hate.

00:59:04.120 They prefer the fakers

00:59:05.180 to the people

00:59:06.360 who actually glom

00:59:09.380 onto something

00:59:10.040 that's real

00:59:10.620 and start cutting

00:59:11.440 off their breasts

00:59:12.380 to seem special.

00:59:14.420 You know,

00:59:14.620 I mean,

00:59:14.900 they're not actually trans,

00:59:16.340 but they're going

00:59:16.700 to say they are

00:59:17.360 because they think

00:59:17.880 they're going to get snaps

00:59:18.740 if they're trans.

00:59:19.540 Like, I'd rather somebody

00:59:20.600 just fake it.

00:59:21.360 Like, I'm black.

00:59:21.920 Yes, I am.

00:59:22.500 What do you mean?

00:59:23.140 You know,

00:59:23.460 that works better.

00:59:24.820 I prefer neither,

00:59:25.500 but I can see

00:59:26.500 where you're coming from.

00:59:28.140 So one of the things

00:59:29.300 I discovered, Megan,

00:59:30.040 though,

00:59:30.960 in the culture

00:59:31.560 we live in right now,

00:59:32.860 it is very difficult

00:59:33.960 to persuade someone

00:59:35.400 of a point of view

00:59:36.360 that they do not

00:59:37.120 already hold.

00:59:38.020 So one of my methods

00:59:39.460 that I try to bring

00:59:40.180 to bear in this book

00:59:40.940 to accomplish that otherwise,

00:59:42.640 for me at least,

00:59:43.280 lofty goal

00:59:43.880 is to actually look

00:59:45.140 to history.

00:59:46.500 History dating back

00:59:47.300 to the U.S. Civil War,

00:59:48.240 heading to the Reconstruction Era,

00:59:50.300 heck,

00:59:50.500 even going back

00:59:51.000 to Roman history.

00:59:51.820 And one of the stories

00:59:52.780 I tell in the book

00:59:53.480 is the story

00:59:54.960 of Septimius Severus.

00:59:56.320 Okay, so he was famously known,

00:59:58.100 I studied him in high school

00:59:59.280 as the Black Emperor.

01:00:01.140 That's what he was known as.

01:00:02.440 Turns out,

01:00:03.000 it was only in the last,

01:00:03.960 half century

01:00:04.740 that he started actually

01:00:05.780 becoming described

01:00:06.900 as the Black Emperor

01:00:08.020 where there was a TV series

01:00:09.320 that they were launching

01:00:10.400 that said,

01:00:11.200 it was the advertisement

01:00:11.940 for the TV series

01:00:12.700 was the first Black man

01:00:13.960 to walk England

01:00:14.860 came not as a slave

01:00:16.660 but as a conqueror.

01:00:17.980 And then they got people

01:00:18.640 all riled up

01:00:19.340 about this Black conquest

01:00:21.440 of this Black Emperor.

01:00:23.080 In reality,

01:00:23.820 if you go back

01:00:24.380 to the Roman era,

01:00:25.100 to the era

01:00:25.380 of his contemporaries,

01:00:26.800 people could see,

01:00:27.560 they had eyes,

01:00:28.280 they could see

01:00:28.640 he was dark-skinned,

01:00:29.940 but they never thought of him

01:00:31.320 as a Black Emperor,

01:00:32.360 any different

01:00:33.140 than the color

01:00:33.740 of someone's eyes

01:00:34.660 or the color

01:00:35.600 of someone's hair.

01:00:37.140 Now, the funny cherry

01:00:38.260 on top to this story though

01:00:39.620 is that actually,

01:00:40.780 he happened to be

01:00:41.740 one of the worst emperors

01:00:43.800 in a very long time.

01:00:45.260 He enslaved

01:00:45.820 a lot of people

01:00:46.560 in Africa.

01:00:47.420 He was brutal

01:00:48.020 as a tyrant

01:00:48.920 and he needed to do it

01:00:50.200 because he had devalued

01:00:51.360 the currency so much

01:00:52.700 that he needed

01:00:53.420 to plunder

01:00:53.980 other places

01:00:54.800 in order to actually

01:00:55.740 replenish the silver

01:00:56.940 that had otherwise

01:00:57.520 been diluted

01:00:58.100 in the denarius,

01:00:58.760 the Roman currency.

01:00:59.960 So one of the things,

01:01:00.800 okay, we can talk

01:01:01.240 about that incident,

01:01:01.940 that's pretty interesting,

01:01:02.940 but I hope

01:01:03.820 that's a way

01:01:04.300 of bringing insights

01:01:05.820 into the present

01:01:06.560 to say that,

01:01:07.020 look, we can actually

01:01:07.520 talk about what is

01:01:08.180 important about this guy,

01:01:09.440 what his accomplishments

01:01:10.180 might have been

01:01:10.760 and what his failures

01:01:11.440 might have been

01:01:11.980 if we stop having

01:01:13.200 to describe him

01:01:13.900 as the Black Emperor

01:01:14.860 because then we're

01:01:15.440 committed to one narrative

01:01:16.780 that is a product

01:01:18.180 of our anachronistic

01:01:19.940 retrospective view

01:01:21.520 through racial identity

01:01:22.740 when, in fact,

01:01:23.780 the Romans didn't see

01:01:24.540 someone through

01:01:24.900 the color of their skin.

01:01:25.780 They saw them

01:01:26.200 as the basis

01:01:26.640 of either being citizens

01:01:27.640 or not of that nation.

01:01:29.220 Not like they didn't

01:01:29.680 have a hierarchy,

01:01:30.660 but it was a hierarchy

01:01:31.300 based on national identity

01:01:32.460 rather than racial identity.

01:01:34.180 And so my hope

01:01:35.180 is we can use

01:01:35.940 our study of history

01:01:37.400 to at least be a way

01:01:38.960 to break through

01:01:40.100 the otherwise seemingly

01:01:41.740 codified barriers

01:01:42.900 in our dialogue

01:01:43.500 where you can,

01:01:44.180 very rare anymore,

01:01:45.780 persuade someone

01:01:46.540 who already has,

01:01:47.640 who had a different

01:01:48.080 point of view

01:01:48.720 any more so than

01:01:49.740 you can at least,

01:01:50.540 you know,

01:01:51.040 galvanize the people

01:01:51.800 who already agree with you.

01:01:52.700 And one of my goals

01:01:53.280 with this book

01:01:53.780 is to, you know,

01:01:55.180 hopefully do something

01:01:55.700 that I'm not sure

01:01:56.460 I was able to do

01:01:57.100 with Woke Inc,

01:01:57.840 which is to convince

01:01:59.040 someone on the other side.

01:02:00.860 I hope history

01:02:01.760 is a tool

01:02:03.080 and a vehicle

01:02:03.460 to get there

01:02:03.920 with this one.

01:02:04.920 You know,

01:02:05.040 we'll see if that's

01:02:05.580 successful or not.

01:02:06.400 Well, I think the discussion

01:02:07.040 of Rome in the book

01:02:07.780 is very interesting

01:02:08.380 and I definitely

01:02:09.260 want to get to that

01:02:09.860 just to touch on two things

01:02:10.860 before we leave them.

01:02:12.720 The BYU Duke investigation.

01:02:14.860 Now I mentioned

01:02:15.400 the aunt,

01:02:16.120 the godmother,

01:02:17.000 the aunt Richardson's

01:02:17.860 godmother,

01:02:18.740 Lisa Pamplin.

01:02:20.420 She,

01:02:21.040 she refuses to accept

01:02:22.640 BYU's finding.

01:02:23.460 So now they've done

01:02:24.540 a comprehensive investigation.

01:02:26.620 And again,

01:02:27.140 BYU's initial instinct

01:02:28.180 was to apologize.

01:02:29.820 They felt awful.

01:02:30.660 They believed her.

01:02:31.760 But they said,

01:02:32.260 we're going to investigate

01:02:33.120 to be fair.

01:02:34.580 And this comprehensive investigation

01:02:36.960 has found that it didn't happen.

01:02:38.020 There's absolutely

01:02:38.380 no evidence of it

01:02:39.200 to the contrary.

01:02:40.680 So she comes out

01:02:41.640 and says,

01:02:42.460 BYU's statement

01:02:43.280 does not change my position.

01:02:44.700 In fact,

01:02:45.040 the statement

01:02:45.400 and the findings

01:02:46.140 are in keeping

01:02:47.140 with what I

01:02:48.020 and many others

01:02:49.200 anticipated.

01:02:49.920 Keep in mind,

01:02:50.860 Vivek,

01:02:51.200 this godmother,

01:02:52.120 Lisa,

01:02:52.880 likes to refer

01:02:53.540 to white people

01:02:54.040 as crackers

01:02:54.560 and has got several,

01:02:55.860 several racist tweets

01:02:56.680 of her own,

01:02:57.160 which now she's made

01:02:57.760 her account private.

01:02:59.240 Daily across America,

01:03:00.260 she continues,

01:03:01.300 the burden of proof

01:03:02.680 in instances like these

01:03:04.500 involving people of color

01:03:05.540 as well as marginalized people,

01:03:06.920 economically disadvantaged people

01:03:08.140 and disempowered people

01:03:09.440 is shifted unfairly

01:03:12.560 and without hesitation.

01:03:14.560 She feels the burden

01:03:16.120 of proof

01:03:17.000 was shifted

01:03:17.740 upon her goddaughter

01:03:19.940 who,

01:03:20.580 so far as I can tell,

01:03:21.620 wasn't required

01:03:22.180 to do much,

01:03:23.420 if anything,

01:03:24.180 in this investigation.

01:03:25.620 They just sat

01:03:26.600 and reviewed

01:03:27.040 hours and hours

01:03:27.800 of videotapes,

01:03:28.500 talked to everybody

01:03:29.060 who was nearby.

01:03:30.120 Maybe they took

01:03:30.620 her testimonial as well.

01:03:32.200 But the point is

01:03:33.680 she crosses her arms

01:03:35.080 and says,

01:03:36.020 no,

01:03:36.680 no.

01:03:37.240 And if it comes out

01:03:37.940 against me,

01:03:38.620 you've unfairly shifted

01:03:39.840 the burden of proof

01:03:40.660 on me.

01:03:42.260 So one of the things

01:03:43.680 that I reject wholesale

01:03:45.440 is this post-Foucault worldview

01:03:47.840 of defining

01:03:49.000 all human relations

01:03:50.140 in terms of power structures,

01:03:51.700 okay?

01:03:51.960 And she used the word

01:03:52.500 disempowered.

01:03:53.600 So I reject that worldview.

01:03:54.840 But in this situation,

01:03:56.240 if you're going to embrace

01:03:57.640 a power structure-based

01:03:59.140 description of what happened there,

01:04:01.080 the disempowered person

01:04:02.500 was actually the person

01:04:03.580 who was accused.

01:04:04.960 There's no doubt about it.

01:04:06.260 And that might be different.

01:04:07.180 30, 40, 50, 60 years ago,

01:04:08.720 a century ago,

01:04:09.720 the tables may have been turned

01:04:10.660 in a very different direction.

01:04:11.540 But today,

01:04:12.120 in the year 2022,

01:04:13.320 there's a little doubt

01:04:13.940 in my mind that the person

01:04:14.800 who was in the disempowered

01:04:16.000 position was no doubt

01:04:17.700 the accused.

01:04:18.700 And even still,

01:04:19.980 with the tilt

01:04:21.120 of that investigation

01:04:22.000 and BYU's initial posture

01:04:23.260 going into it,

01:04:24.280 already ruining

01:04:25.100 that person's life

01:04:25.900 in many measures,

01:04:26.700 still could not find

01:04:27.520 a shred of evidence

01:04:28.220 to support it.

01:04:29.540 What does it remind me of?

01:04:30.720 It reminds me of

01:04:31.320 at the end of

01:04:31.900 the Jussie Smollett case,

01:04:33.380 okay?

01:04:33.640 So this is a guy

01:04:34.440 who faked a hate crime hoax.

01:04:36.760 The prosecutors initially

01:04:38.520 actually closed off the case

01:04:40.120 because it looked

01:04:40.800 like it smelled really rotten,

01:04:42.160 but actually had to be reopened

01:04:43.900 by federal prosecutors.

01:04:45.220 Speaking of Michelle Obama,

01:04:46.000 by the way,

01:04:46.520 I can't resist bringing this back in.

01:04:48.300 She was a friend

01:04:49.000 of Jussie Smollett's

01:04:49.800 and it was an acquaintance,

01:04:51.240 a chief of staff,

01:04:51.960 I believe,

01:04:52.720 of Michelle Obama

01:04:53.360 who contacted

01:04:54.260 the initial prosecutors

01:04:55.640 in the case

01:04:56.180 to get them to drop charges.

01:04:57.720 It was only after

01:04:58.340 President Trump

01:04:58.860 then directed federal officials

01:05:00.260 to reopen the investigation

01:05:01.840 that any of this

01:05:03.040 even came to bear,

01:05:03.860 came to light.

01:05:04.720 We found a guy

01:05:05.340 who literally

01:05:06.520 was paying

01:05:08.400 two other black men,

01:05:09.840 with one of whom

01:05:10.780 he had a homosexual

01:05:11.280 intimate relationship,

01:05:12.560 to pose as white supremacists.

01:05:15.500 That is how hard it is

01:05:16.480 to find a white supremacist

01:05:17.480 to beat up a famous Hollywood actor

01:05:18.780 is to have to pay them

01:05:20.420 to be able to,

01:05:21.060 and you have to be

01:05:21.300 in an intimate relationship

01:05:22.020 with one of them.

01:05:23.000 But the funny thing,

01:05:23.620 the cherry on top is,

01:05:24.740 so I don't know

01:05:25.440 if that's the full extent

01:05:26.180 of what happened here

01:05:26.720 in the BYU case or not,

01:05:28.200 but the part that reminded me of it

01:05:29.780 is when the godmother's quote

01:05:31.080 you described

01:05:31.640 reminds me of the defense attorney

01:05:33.220 in the Smollett case

01:05:34.840 who at the end of the case,

01:05:36.140 she was losing really badly.

01:05:37.660 I mean,

01:05:37.760 the trial was embarrassing,

01:05:39.040 if you're in the defense side here,

01:05:42.140 this is Jussie Smollett

01:05:42.960 is defendant

01:05:43.360 for faking the hate crime hoax,

01:05:45.260 that she then claims racism

01:05:47.160 on the part of the judge

01:05:48.640 who she claimed

01:05:49.820 began to lunge at her

01:05:51.760 because she was a woman of color

01:05:53.500 in the courtroom.

01:05:55.140 You remember that?

01:05:57.120 It's amazing how this story,

01:05:58.760 if that were a one-off incident

01:05:59.940 that I don't think

01:06:00.500 it would be worth talking about,

01:06:01.580 right?

01:06:01.800 A lot of people

01:06:02.900 do a lot of stupid things.

01:06:04.120 They're not all worth commenting on.

01:06:05.740 This is different.

01:06:07.080 This is part of a pattern

01:06:08.860 that repeats itself.

01:06:10.580 And I think it's more interesting

01:06:11.840 if we bring this up

01:06:12.720 not to embarrass

01:06:14.160 or call out

01:06:15.020 any particular individual

01:06:16.160 from a partisan perspective,

01:06:18.200 from Michelle Obama

01:06:18.780 to Kamala Harris

01:06:19.500 to this attorney,

01:06:20.760 to this godmother.

01:06:22.060 It's more interesting

01:06:23.540 if we're just curious

01:06:25.600 about what is the psychological,

01:06:28.320 pathological state of mind

01:06:30.200 of an entire country

01:06:31.140 that produces

01:06:32.400 this same narrative

01:06:33.860 time and again.

01:06:35.320 And one of the things

01:06:36.180 that's uncomfortable

01:06:37.180 for some of us on the right,

01:06:38.560 I don't know how you feel

01:06:39.260 about this, Megan,

01:06:39.720 is that I actually see

01:06:41.520 that pathology

01:06:42.900 spreading to the right,

01:06:46.360 actually,

01:06:46.720 through the narratives

01:06:47.240 of white victimhood identity

01:06:48.860 or conservative victimhood identity.

01:06:50.520 And that's how,

01:06:51.320 I think that's how

01:06:52.240 the woke left wins

01:06:53.340 is not with a bang,

01:06:55.120 but with a whimper,

01:06:56.260 where, you know,

01:06:56.840 I think conservatives

01:06:57.320 fall into the narrative

01:06:58.100 of saying,

01:06:58.560 well, you're a victim.

01:07:00.300 Well, guess what?

01:07:00.660 I'm an even bigger victim

01:07:01.800 and we're going to fight

01:07:02.480 out the victim of the Olympics.

01:07:05.120 Wait, I have to say,

01:07:06.280 but just one other point,

01:07:07.080 because let's get into that next.

01:07:08.560 But just one other point,

01:07:09.540 because you mentioned

01:07:10.180 how you list in the,

01:07:12.160 I think it's the first chapter

01:07:13.260 of the book,

01:07:14.320 cases like Rachel Dolezal,

01:07:16.660 where people pretend

01:07:17.520 to be sort of

01:07:19.560 a marginalized group,

01:07:20.740 a member of it,

01:07:21.560 in order to get

01:07:22.220 the same status.

01:07:23.000 And you mentioned one

01:07:23.900 who I'd never heard of,

01:07:24.960 just so people know,

01:07:25.780 this is a book full

01:07:26.840 of interesting nuggets

01:07:27.820 like this one.

01:07:29.360 Neuroscientist

01:07:29.760 Beth Ann McLaughlin,

01:07:31.700 founder of Me Too STEM,

01:07:34.980 I guess like everything

01:07:35.940 gets Me Too'd,

01:07:36.940 Me Too STEM organization,

01:07:38.880 used a similar excuse

01:07:40.960 or tactic

01:07:41.460 when she admitted

01:07:42.420 to having created,

01:07:44.040 this is amazing, Vivek.

01:07:44.960 Do you want to tell

01:07:45.440 the story of what she did?

01:07:46.200 Do you remember?

01:07:46.560 Do you want me to just read it?

01:07:47.320 I actually got the,

01:07:48.340 I was just opening up

01:07:49.300 to the page myself,

01:07:50.160 but you go ahead.

01:07:50.600 You've got the page.

01:07:51.140 Go for it.

01:07:51.400 It's amazing.

01:07:52.180 Okay.

01:07:52.440 When she admitted

01:07:53.420 to having created

01:07:54.860 a fake Native American

01:07:57.400 adjunct professor

01:07:59.260 to defend her,

01:08:01.340 Beth Ann,

01:08:02.040 on Twitter.

01:08:02.940 So she didn't pretend

01:08:04.560 to be the Native American

01:08:05.520 like Elizabeth Warren.

01:08:06.700 She created a fake

01:08:08.260 Native American friend

01:08:09.700 to defend her on Twitter.

01:08:12.620 McLaughlin's followers

01:08:13.820 became suspicious

01:08:15.480 that her defender

01:08:16.960 was not real.

01:08:18.840 When?

01:08:19.480 Do you want to tell us

01:08:20.040 what Beth Ann decided to do

01:08:21.700 to her fake Indian friend?

01:08:23.780 So this is during the pandemic.

01:08:25.140 So she created a Zoom memorial

01:08:27.420 for her fake friend

01:08:28.760 who she had managed

01:08:29.600 to kill off

01:08:30.400 with COVID-19.

01:08:33.000 And Megan,

01:08:33.680 this is part of the book

01:08:34.480 where there are literally

01:08:35.400 like seven examples

01:08:36.360 of these back-to-back.

01:08:37.720 I mean,

01:08:37.880 this is not a one-off incident,

01:08:39.960 right?

01:08:41.020 The Jussie Smollett thing,

01:08:42.240 you bring that up,

01:08:42.880 they'll say that's

01:08:43.260 a conservative talking point.

01:08:44.660 By the way,

01:08:45.260 questioning his narrative

01:08:46.040 immediately after

01:08:46.740 was victimizing

01:08:47.500 the victim all over again,

01:08:48.980 talking about it afterwards,

01:08:49.840 a conservative talking point.

01:08:51.360 This isn't a conservative

01:08:52.400 or a liberal issue.

01:08:53.260 This is,

01:08:54.300 it's a bizarre

01:08:55.500 pathological state of mind

01:08:57.880 that just repeats itself.

01:08:59.540 I kid you not,

01:09:00.500 actually,

01:09:00.720 in the editing process,

01:09:02.040 we had to cut

01:09:03.220 about half of the cases

01:09:04.860 that I initially

01:09:05.540 included in Texas,

01:09:06.220 which is too many of them

01:09:07.200 to include.

01:09:08.540 Something's going on

01:09:09.480 in the country.

01:09:10.220 Something's in the water.

01:09:11.760 So you talk about

01:09:13.720 these institutions

01:09:14.420 in the first book

01:09:15.500 and in this book

01:09:16.240 and how sort of

01:09:18.560 they've been taken over

01:09:19.660 by people who are

01:09:20.600 just committed

01:09:21.180 to this victimhood

01:09:22.440 and it's very tightly

01:09:23.700 related to this DEI

01:09:25.000 initiative that we see

01:09:25.900 getting pushed

01:09:26.640 from corporate America

01:09:28.140 to education.

01:09:29.680 Last week on the show,

01:09:30.740 we talked about

01:09:31.400 Trinity School

01:09:32.200 and some of these

01:09:33.660 public schools as well

01:09:34.700 that James O'Keefe

01:09:35.400 has been getting on camera,

01:09:37.140 certain teachers

01:09:37.760 or administrators

01:09:38.400 from them

01:09:39.020 talking about how

01:09:40.000 at Trinity School,

01:09:40.820 the woman wanted to hire,

01:09:42.140 she was joking,

01:09:43.700 but to even have said

01:09:44.980 the thought,

01:09:45.680 a serial killer

01:09:46.520 to come take out

01:09:47.440 the white boys

01:09:48.180 at her school

01:09:48.620 who she thought

01:09:49.100 were horrible,

01:09:49.800 especially the conservative

01:09:51.040 white boys

01:09:51.640 who she wanted dead.

01:09:53.040 It's not funny

01:09:53.700 and I've had a kid

01:09:54.840 in a school

01:09:55.320 just like Trinity

01:09:56.040 in New York City

01:09:56.640 where they had teachers

01:09:57.440 who are insane like that

01:09:59.200 when it comes to

01:09:59.680 identity politics,

01:10:01.480 although I love

01:10:02.960 most of our teachers

01:10:03.780 at Collegiate,

01:10:04.320 I'll tell the truth.

01:10:05.440 It was the administrators

01:10:06.380 who started pushing

01:10:07.100 this nonsense.

01:10:08.020 In any event,

01:10:08.440 at Trinity,

01:10:08.840 we covered it.

01:10:09.780 There were some people

01:10:10.760 who came to me

01:10:11.300 and said,

01:10:11.680 MK,

01:10:12.700 don't pretend

01:10:13.180 that it's an individual

01:10:14.140 school issue.

01:10:15.360 You know,

01:10:15.580 the National Association

01:10:18.180 of Independent Schools,

01:10:19.620 they're pushing this.

01:10:21.060 You can't even join now

01:10:22.300 unless you submit

01:10:22.960 to their DEI agenda.

01:10:24.800 Same is true

01:10:25.520 at the college level

01:10:26.380 and there was a tweet

01:10:27.700 that I saw you tweeted about

01:10:29.120 that also caught my eye

01:10:30.540 on Twitter

01:10:30.900 that brings home the point.

01:10:32.640 All right,

01:10:32.840 this is about Ohio State

01:10:34.680 and what it's doing now

01:10:36.100 to address racism

01:10:37.560 and racial inequality.

01:10:38.820 Let's just give an example

01:10:39.680 of what we're dealing with here.

01:10:42.740 This is a guy named

01:10:43.640 John Saylor

01:10:44.500 who's a fellow

01:10:45.020 at the National Association

01:10:45.920 of Scholars

01:10:46.400 who had a whole thread

01:10:47.660 on what Ohio State's doing.

01:10:48.840 Okay.

01:10:49.460 They recently released

01:10:50.520 the report

01:10:51.140 from their Task Force

01:10:52.060 on Racism and Racial Inequities,

01:10:53.760 which recommends

01:10:54.460 far-reaching changes

01:10:55.480 throughout the university.

01:10:57.300 They'll likely be adopted.

01:10:59.060 The first step

01:10:59.760 is to create

01:11:01.100 a university-wide DEI plan.

01:11:03.180 Okay, of course.

01:11:04.120 They want increased

01:11:04.900 mandatory DEI,

01:11:06.260 diversity, equity,

01:11:06.840 and inclusion training

01:11:08.140 throughout the university.

01:11:10.000 Also,

01:11:10.620 they want added

01:11:12.200 DEI metrics

01:11:13.400 to promotion

01:11:14.420 and tenure evaluations.

01:11:16.320 So,

01:11:16.740 I don't know

01:11:17.360 how you're supposed

01:11:17.820 to get into the DEI group

01:11:19.240 if you're not already

01:11:20.040 for your tenure application,

01:11:21.740 but okay, good luck.

01:11:23.540 They are doing things

01:11:25.560 like at the College of Engineering,

01:11:27.000 they've already added

01:11:27.860 a DEI assessment

01:11:28.760 to annual reviews

01:11:29.660 and removed mandatory

01:11:30.820 ACT and SAT math scores.

01:11:32.520 Those are gone.

01:11:33.580 College of Education

01:11:34.540 and Human Ecology

01:11:35.720 has issued

01:11:36.480 a Racial Justice

01:11:37.500 and Equity Action Plan

01:11:38.440 promising a curriculum overhaul

01:11:40.140 and department-level DEI plans.

01:11:42.580 The university

01:11:43.380 began a massive hiring initiative

01:11:45.020 aimed almost exclusively

01:11:46.460 at faculty

01:11:46.940 whose research addresses

01:11:48.040 diversity,

01:11:49.440 equity,

01:11:49.740 and inclusion.

01:11:51.020 Every faculty job

01:11:52.180 listed by the College

01:11:52.900 of Arts and Sciences

01:11:53.920 includes this statement.

01:11:55.660 Over the next few years,

01:11:56.560 the Ohio State University

01:11:57.480 is committed

01:11:57.880 to welcoming

01:11:58.380 350 new faculty hires.

01:12:00.700 Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

01:12:01.640 We want people

01:12:02.200 who are committed

01:12:03.260 to equality

01:12:04.420 and inclusion.

01:12:05.800 Diversity statement.

01:12:07.040 I could go on, Vivek.

01:12:08.220 It's exhausting.

01:12:09.980 It's exhausting,

01:12:10.880 but it's required now

01:12:13.140 to be an independent school,

01:12:14.540 to be a public school,

01:12:15.600 to be a university,

01:12:16.600 to get anybody

01:12:17.720 to apply to you.

01:12:18.880 We could go on.

01:12:20.100 It's the source

01:12:20.840 of our national decline.

01:12:22.040 I mean, that's ultimately

01:12:23.120 the case I make

01:12:23.860 in the book

01:12:24.560 is that, look,

01:12:26.060 at the end of the day,

01:12:26.920 China actually believes

01:12:28.400 in hiring based on merit.

01:12:30.240 So the American culture

01:12:31.380 of meritocracy

01:12:32.420 has left oceans

01:12:34.140 to lift up places

01:12:35.140 like China

01:12:35.860 while it's their

01:12:36.760 Maoist victimhood complexes

01:12:38.260 that have in turn

01:12:39.180 come back

01:12:39.720 and left oceans

01:12:40.360 to depress

01:12:41.280 the United States.

01:12:42.620 So true.

01:12:44.220 I mean, this is

01:12:45.180 a very pragmatic effect.

01:12:46.420 And in some sense,

01:12:47.340 Megan, I'm actually

01:12:47.960 weirdly optimistic

01:12:49.800 that it will be

01:12:51.000 the rise of China

01:12:51.800 that forces a reckoning

01:12:53.280 here in the United States

01:12:54.320 to revive

01:12:55.240 the pursuit of excellence,

01:12:56.280 not because we wanted to,

01:12:57.460 but because it was necessary

01:12:58.660 for our very self-preservation

01:13:00.780 because that's what's going to

01:13:01.440 come back down to

01:13:02.600 when we ask ourselves

01:13:03.760 20 years from now,

01:13:04.700 what were we doing

01:13:05.860 when we were selecting

01:13:07.220 our engineers

01:13:08.080 and our doctors

01:13:09.020 based on DEI quota systems

01:13:11.460 rather than based on SAT scores

01:13:13.560 or MCAT scores

01:13:14.800 or ACT scores

01:13:15.600 or based on their competence.

01:13:17.360 And if you want

01:13:18.000 any further evidence

01:13:18.780 for this,

01:13:19.200 not a lot of people

01:13:19.860 talk about this, Megan,

01:13:20.660 but let's talk about,

01:13:22.180 let's just take one

01:13:22.740 of these stories

01:13:23.400 all the way through

01:13:24.300 of a student, okay,

01:13:25.640 who then to get into college

01:13:26.860 did not have to take

01:13:27.640 the SAT or ACT math

01:13:29.040 that was forgiven

01:13:29.820 and you're filling

01:13:30.600 a quota system into college.

01:13:32.240 Then that person

01:13:32.920 goes to law school

01:13:33.860 where they have

01:13:34.500 the same systems again.

01:13:36.260 Now, or the,

01:13:36.780 oh, let's take medical school

01:13:37.620 as an example

01:13:38.060 where the MCAT

01:13:39.500 may be evaluated differently

01:13:40.840 on the base of race.

01:13:41.780 So now you have already

01:13:42.760 twice selected, okay?

01:13:45.120 You already have

01:13:45.500 a 400 point differential.

01:13:46.720 That's a lot on the SATs

01:13:47.980 for people who aren't familiar

01:13:48.640 with it between the average

01:13:49.760 Asian score required

01:13:51.060 to enter a top school

01:13:51.720 versus the average Black students

01:13:52.900 score required

01:13:53.660 to enter a top school.

01:13:54.560 You already got it

01:13:55.000 on college once.

01:13:56.400 Double count number one

01:13:57.540 is then you do the same thing

01:13:59.340 in medical school.

01:14:00.620 Double count becomes

01:14:01.460 a triple count

01:14:02.200 when you do the same thing

01:14:02.980 with USMLE step one,

01:14:04.760 which is the test required

01:14:06.320 to get your medical certification.

01:14:08.420 The first of three steps

01:14:09.180 required to get

01:14:09.560 your medical certification,

01:14:10.200 which just switched

01:14:10.860 to pass fail recently,

01:14:12.220 again, on account

01:14:13.260 of racial equity.

01:14:15.020 So you now count it thrice over.

01:14:16.760 So there was a really,

01:14:18.200 there's a really interesting story

01:14:20.680 that I saw published recently,

01:14:22.040 which found that

01:14:23.560 among residency programs,

01:14:25.780 there was rampant racism,

01:14:28.080 supposedly,

01:14:28.560 amongst engineering,

01:14:31.380 amongst the fellows

01:14:33.060 and amongst the attending physicians

01:14:35.140 who were cutting

01:14:36.420 the Black residents

01:14:38.920 at a higher rate

01:14:40.320 than white residents.

01:14:41.940 So I wrote a note

01:14:42.760 to the author of this story.

01:14:44.420 It relates exactly

01:14:45.040 to the kinds of themes

01:14:45.580 I talk about in my book.

01:14:46.320 I thought it was fitting

01:14:46.760 to ask the author.

01:14:47.600 Have you considered

01:14:48.480 the possibility

01:14:49.260 that perhaps what's happening

01:14:51.320 when these residents

01:14:52.340 are actually responsible

01:14:53.240 for treating patients

01:14:54.320 in the hospital,

01:14:55.480 that the thing

01:14:56.080 that might be happening

01:14:56.820 is that they're cutting out

01:14:57.940 the residents

01:14:58.560 who are underperforming,

01:15:00.300 who correlate

01:15:00.880 with the very residents

01:15:02.120 who scored most poorly,

01:15:04.200 starting with their SAT

01:15:05.140 to their MCAT

01:15:06.060 to their USMLE

01:15:07.040 that were underprepared

01:15:08.420 for their jobs.

01:15:09.200 Might that be

01:15:09.980 a different explanation

01:15:11.260 for what's happening

01:15:12.000 rather than systemic racism

01:15:13.720 which suddenly popped up

01:15:14.980 only in the residency

01:15:16.260 part of the system

01:15:16.920 when Black residents

01:15:18.020 were being systematically cut

01:15:19.040 at a higher rate

01:15:20.180 than white residents?

01:15:20.980 I kid you not,

01:15:21.660 she hadn't thought

01:15:22.520 of that possibility.

01:15:23.620 So this is somebody

01:15:24.120 who was earnestly curious.

01:15:25.500 She's like,

01:15:25.680 I'm going to have to study that.

01:15:26.440 That's a really interesting point.

01:15:27.700 Oh my God,

01:15:28.260 it's so on the nose.

01:15:29.620 Which is staggering.

01:15:30.940 But this is the tortured framework

01:15:33.760 within which we live

01:15:34.520 that any racial disparity

01:15:36.000 has to be attributed

01:15:37.800 to some type of invidious

01:15:39.480 form of intention

01:15:40.960 without recognizing

01:15:42.140 that actually we created

01:15:43.320 the very system

01:15:44.180 that selects for that type

01:15:46.200 of apparently disparate behavior.

01:15:48.560 At the end of the day,

01:15:49.280 how are we going to figure this out?

01:15:50.460 It's going to be

01:15:50.820 how many lives are lost

01:15:51.960 at the bedside?

01:15:53.980 How much less competitive

01:15:55.040 are we going to be?

01:15:56.120 In the semiconductor industry,

01:15:57.580 in any other area

01:15:59.140 of technology

01:15:59.680 where we're going to be

01:16:00.340 quickly falling behind China

01:16:01.520 and other parts of the world?

01:16:02.940 I hope it doesn't come to that

01:16:04.200 before we wake up.

01:16:05.160 But at the end of the day,

01:16:05.820 we may be so far down the path

01:16:07.360 that one of the things

01:16:08.120 I predict in the book,

01:16:08.920 and this is part of

01:16:09.480 when I trace the parts

01:16:10.480 of Roman history as well,

01:16:12.000 you know,

01:16:12.120 the optimistic part of this,

01:16:13.220 Megan,

01:16:13.300 is that we often think

01:16:14.860 about the fact

01:16:15.340 that there was one fall of Rome.

01:16:17.180 You know,

01:16:17.300 I think the optimistic

01:16:17.960 silver lining here is

01:16:19.100 actually that's a false

01:16:19.920 narrative of history.

01:16:21.160 There were many rises

01:16:22.200 and many falls of Rome.

01:16:23.900 And I think for the folks

01:16:24.620 who say that we're now

01:16:25.720 at the fall of the

01:16:26.420 American experiment,

01:16:27.280 I would say not so fast.

01:16:29.020 I hope that there will be

01:16:29.820 many rises and many falls

01:16:31.040 before our experiment is done.

01:16:33.120 But we're going to have to,

01:16:34.340 we're going to have to have

01:16:34.940 something that wakes us up.

01:16:36.260 And usually it's either a war,

01:16:38.040 the rise of a rival,

01:16:39.480 an economic calamity

01:16:40.580 or collapse.

01:16:41.300 But whatever that shock

01:16:42.480 to the system may be,

01:16:43.980 I hope it doesn't come to it,

01:16:45.340 but I predict it might

01:16:46.280 before we have that kind

01:16:47.620 of wake up call

01:16:48.320 that revives

01:16:49.120 our defining culture

01:16:50.520 of excellence

01:16:51.280 and merit in this country.

01:16:52.940 Yeah, because you're

01:16:53.660 also predicting,

01:16:54.560 guess what?

01:16:55.300 We may not be Rome.

01:16:56.840 China may be Rome.

01:16:58.320 We may be playing

01:16:59.340 a bit part.

01:17:00.360 And that may become

01:17:01.440 all too clear very soon.

01:17:03.040 We'll pick it up there

01:17:03.580 because I love the discussion

01:17:04.800 about Rome in the book.

01:17:05.920 It was very illuminating to me

01:17:07.440 and I don't really love

01:17:08.660 our supporting role.

01:17:09.540 I hope it's not China,

01:17:11.920 but we'll pick it up there

01:17:12.660 in two minutes.

01:17:13.680 Don't go away.

01:17:14.120 More with Vic

01:17:14.720 right after this quick break.

01:17:15.980 So let's spend a moment

01:17:20.800 on Republican victimhood,

01:17:22.380 which we touched on

01:17:23.500 a minute ago.

01:17:24.680 I try to stay objective

01:17:26.820 on these things,

01:17:27.620 but, you know,

01:17:28.500 maybe I'm not.

01:17:29.800 You'll tell me.

01:17:31.200 I actually see

01:17:32.240 a lot of these Republicans,

01:17:33.620 forget election deniers,

01:17:35.020 that's a thing

01:17:35.540 in and of itself, okay?

01:17:36.700 But like,

01:17:37.620 I see them as like

01:17:39.400 actual victims.

01:17:40.380 I really do think

01:17:41.120 that the Republicans

01:17:41.720 have been wrongly silenced

01:17:43.720 and excluded

01:17:44.600 from the public square,

01:17:45.720 whether it's media

01:17:47.060 or, you know,

01:17:47.720 having their voices silenced

01:17:48.680 or social media.

01:17:49.900 Hollywood,

01:17:50.380 they can't get any

01:17:51.160 sort of, you know,

01:17:51.980 purchase whatsoever.

01:17:53.480 Corporate America now

01:17:54.520 doesn't like their worldview.

01:17:56.400 You're considered a bigot

01:17:57.300 if you're pro-life.

01:17:58.680 You know,

01:17:58.820 it could go down the list

01:17:59.520 and it's not to say

01:18:00.660 that there's no racism

01:18:01.480 on the side of the wokesters

01:18:02.540 or sexism

01:18:03.520 and all that stuff.

01:18:04.640 I acknowledge

01:18:05.180 that that still exists

01:18:05.980 in the country.

01:18:06.520 It's just nowhere near

01:18:07.340 as massive and widespread

01:18:08.840 as they claim.

01:18:10.040 So I won't say

01:18:10.560 that they're fakers

01:18:11.280 when they have their claims

01:18:13.020 of victimhood.

01:18:13.660 I just think

01:18:14.160 there are a lot of fakers

01:18:15.720 who are sort of glomming

01:18:17.000 on to a dark past history

01:18:18.820 to try to make the problem

01:18:21.020 seem much worse

01:18:21.620 than it is.

01:18:23.000 But I know,

01:18:23.500 so where am I going wrong?

01:18:24.800 Because I know

01:18:25.120 you have an issue

01:18:25.600 with Republicans.

01:18:26.200 I don't think you're going wrong,

01:18:26.860 Megan.

01:18:27.140 I mean,

01:18:27.400 there's 11 chapters

01:18:28.400 in the book.

01:18:29.160 One of them is dedicated

01:18:30.320 to conservative victimhood.

01:18:32.320 I think that,

01:18:32.900 you know,

01:18:33.360 the ratio,

01:18:34.380 is it asymmetric

01:18:35.680 in the world

01:18:36.120 the way that you,

01:18:36.920 the way that exactly

01:18:37.760 that you described?

01:18:38.420 I think absolutely it is.

01:18:39.340 I mean,

01:18:39.460 I've been a vocal critic

01:18:40.500 of woke culture

01:18:41.720 through Woke Inc

01:18:42.840 and my other work

01:18:43.540 over the course

01:18:43.960 of the last year.

01:18:44.460 But if I'm writing a book

01:18:45.080 about victimhood culture,

01:18:46.100 it was going to be incomplete

01:18:47.740 without putting a finger

01:18:48.800 on,

01:18:49.260 I think,

01:18:49.440 a rising tide of,

01:18:51.520 you know,

01:18:51.680 if you want to frame it

01:18:52.700 in a racial lens,

01:18:53.400 which I prefer not to,

01:18:54.260 but the counterpart

01:18:55.460 to black victimhood

01:18:56.320 is,

01:18:56.860 I think,

01:18:56.960 a rising narrative

01:18:57.700 of white victimhood.

01:18:58.980 And I think

01:18:59.180 a conservative victimhood

01:19:00.180 responds to liberal victimhood

01:19:02.020 as well.

01:19:02.780 I think it would have been incomplete

01:19:03.980 without staring at that problem

01:19:05.940 with clear eyes.

01:19:06.760 And I think that there's two ways

01:19:07.760 to take this discussion.

01:19:08.860 One is a relative case

01:19:10.820 for justification

01:19:11.660 for victimhood,

01:19:12.580 which is,

01:19:13.640 I think,

01:19:13.760 an interesting place to go.

01:19:15.540 I think where I prefer

01:19:16.660 to go with the discussion

01:19:17.460 is where we move from here,

01:19:19.860 whether or not

01:19:20.680 you have a legitimate grievance.

01:19:22.920 What does one do

01:19:23.980 when everyone has a grievance

01:19:25.700 emanating in 360 degrees,

01:19:27.820 in a 360-degree direction?

01:19:29.980 I think that that puts us

01:19:31.040 in a permanently,

01:19:32.420 it's an ossified place.

01:19:34.100 We're effectively flash frozen

01:19:35.980 in a web of,

01:19:37.600 tangled web of victimhood.

01:19:39.200 And the case I make

01:19:40.060 in the heart of the book

01:19:41.020 is a case for forgiveness.

01:19:44.080 The path from victimhood

01:19:45.740 to excellence

01:19:46.800 runs through forgiveness.

01:19:49.140 And at the end of the day,

01:19:49.880 I see a greater opportunity.

01:19:51.880 Why do I write that chapter?

01:19:52.500 I see a greater opportunity

01:19:53.400 for the Republican Party,

01:19:54.700 for conservatives

01:19:55.460 to be the party,

01:19:57.220 the only one

01:19:57.960 of the two major parties

01:19:59.400 that defines itself

01:20:01.040 based on

01:20:01.760 the unapologetic pursuit

01:20:03.160 of excellence,

01:20:03.760 based on the rejection

01:20:04.660 of victimhood identities,

01:20:06.560 based on the revival

01:20:07.420 of meritocracy.

01:20:08.440 And I trace in that chapter

01:20:09.520 many of the ways

01:20:10.520 in which, look,

01:20:11.360 I think a lot of the

01:20:12.460 industrial victimhood narratives,

01:20:14.760 white victimhood narratives,

01:20:16.800 populist conservative

01:20:17.680 victimhood narratives

01:20:18.500 are grounded

01:20:19.340 in some real

01:20:20.600 economic realities.

01:20:22.240 Look, there are

01:20:22.720 some policy choices

01:20:23.680 we have made

01:20:24.260 in this country

01:20:24.840 over the course

01:20:26.060 of the last couple

01:20:27.080 of decades

01:20:27.560 that Donald Trump

01:20:28.280 had his finger out correctly

01:20:30.080 on the finger

01:20:30.660 on the pulse of.

01:20:31.400 Look, did free trade

01:20:32.600 grow the size

01:20:33.360 of the overall economic pie

01:20:34.560 globally?

01:20:35.300 It did.

01:20:36.160 Was it arguably

01:20:36.820 the right policy course

01:20:37.960 for the United States

01:20:38.580 to have taken

01:20:38.980 at a certain point in time?

01:20:40.300 Absolutely it was.

01:20:41.640 But it also contributed

01:20:42.820 to a world

01:20:43.520 in which the dollar

01:20:44.620 was the reserve currency

01:20:46.040 of the world.

01:20:46.680 That's a good thing

01:20:47.440 for many,

01:20:47.940 it is for the United States

01:20:49.160 for reasons I can get into.

01:20:50.460 But one effect

01:20:51.160 of the dollar

01:20:51.700 being the reserve currency

01:20:52.540 of the world

01:20:53.040 is that that makes

01:20:54.300 United States exports

01:20:55.700 incrementally higher

01:20:56.760 than the actual

01:20:57.500 market clearing price

01:20:58.400 would have made them

01:20:59.040 if you didn't have

01:21:00.240 the dollar

01:21:00.620 as the reserve currency

01:21:01.560 of the world

01:21:02.020 where there's

01:21:02.860 a certain base

01:21:03.800 including manufacturers

01:21:04.620 in the United States

01:21:05.300 who are left

01:21:06.220 holding the ban.

01:21:07.600 You layer on

01:21:08.280 subsidies to knowledge

01:21:09.320 based industries

01:21:10.020 through intellectual property

01:21:11.000 in my former industry

01:21:11.880 in biotech

01:21:12.720 for that matter.

01:21:13.700 That's again

01:21:14.160 a subsidy

01:21:14.840 from manufacturing industries

01:21:15.980 to knowledge based industries

01:21:17.080 and then you look

01:21:17.620 at disproportionate representation

01:21:18.720 in the military,

01:21:19.420 whatever.

01:21:20.080 There are strong facts

01:21:21.420 to justify

01:21:22.360 a strong case

01:21:23.420 for conservative victimhood

01:21:25.180 even in the dimensions

01:21:27.000 that I just described

01:21:27.960 economically

01:21:28.500 that go beyond

01:21:29.340 the elitist discrimination

01:21:31.660 that you laid out.

01:21:33.360 But where from here

01:21:34.460 is the question

01:21:35.280 that I ultimately

01:21:35.800 come to, Megan,

01:21:36.580 is do we want

01:21:37.600 to prove a point

01:21:38.500 or do we actually

01:21:39.700 have a nation

01:21:40.480 left at the end of it?

01:21:42.080 And I make a case

01:21:43.080 for the revival

01:21:43.940 of a shared national identity

01:21:45.860 because without that

01:21:46.800 we're just a bunch of,

01:21:48.180 you know,

01:21:48.940 we're just a bunch

01:21:49.520 of human automatons,

01:21:51.120 pounds of flesh

01:21:51.900 roaming the plains

01:21:53.460 of North America.

01:21:54.820 I get it.

01:21:55.320 But we're talking

01:21:57.220 about tactics right now.

01:21:58.320 We're talking about tactics.

01:21:59.360 OK, so why

01:22:00.920 like we've been

01:22:01.860 having this debate

01:22:02.500 at Nation

01:22:03.140 and Nationwide

01:22:04.020 and on the show

01:22:04.700 as well about,

01:22:05.960 for example,

01:22:06.400 cancel culture,

01:22:07.800 which I know

01:22:08.220 you're 100% against

01:22:09.420 and you've defended

01:22:10.160 a lot of people

01:22:10.660 who have been swept up in it.

01:22:13.380 Why not fight fire with fire?

01:22:15.020 Why not go after

01:22:16.220 the cancelers?

01:22:17.280 Why not celebrate

01:22:18.020 when Chrissy Teigen

01:22:19.080 gets canceled

01:22:19.700 because she celebrated

01:22:20.780 the downfall of everybody

01:22:22.280 on the right

01:22:22.920 who went down?

01:22:23.480 Like, here's a taste

01:22:24.380 of your own medicine.

01:22:25.160 How do you like it

01:22:25.980 when one of yours goes down?

01:22:27.640 Who's Chrissy Teigen

01:22:28.600 going to try to cancel now?

01:22:30.220 No one, right?

01:22:31.200 Like, how are we going

01:22:32.700 to get them to see

01:22:33.400 the error of their ways

01:22:34.440 without fighting fire with fire?

01:22:36.320 I see the appeal

01:22:37.060 of fighting fire with fire.

01:22:38.440 I just tend to find

01:22:39.440 that water is often

01:22:40.560 more effective

01:22:41.200 than fighting fire.

01:22:42.420 And at the end of the day,

01:22:44.480 you know,

01:22:44.820 if we engage

01:22:45.460 in this victimhood Olympics

01:22:46.700 that I was referring to earlier,

01:22:48.020 this oppression Olympics,

01:22:49.020 victimhood Olympics,

01:22:50.720 there is no gold medalist

01:22:52.300 in the end.

01:22:53.160 It is America

01:22:53.840 that loses as a nation.

01:22:55.920 And at the end of the day,

01:22:57.080 it's going to fall on someone.

01:22:58.580 We have a vacuum of leadership.

01:23:00.360 I think the best fighting chance

01:23:01.580 is for conservatives

01:23:02.200 in this country

01:23:02.760 to lead the way

01:23:03.700 to filling that void

01:23:05.460 of national identity

01:23:06.560 with something

01:23:07.340 far more meaningful

01:23:08.260 than just an impeachment

01:23:09.760 of the other side

01:23:10.640 by hypocrisy.

01:23:11.380 Because I can tell you

01:23:12.320 from the couple of years

01:23:13.200 of doing that myself,

01:23:14.360 I mean,

01:23:14.560 I'm talking to myself

01:23:16.180 and preaching to myself

01:23:17.060 as much as you're

01:23:17.900 preaching to anyone else.

01:23:19.020 If I look at even much

01:23:19.980 of what I didn't walk in

01:23:20.780 was impeachment by hypocrisy.

01:23:22.320 Where does that leave us?

01:23:23.640 Are we actually

01:23:24.160 that much better off

01:23:25.220 as a nation

01:23:25.920 without laying out

01:23:27.680 a path forward?

01:23:28.520 And so I make some cases

01:23:29.760 for some provocative ideas

01:23:30.640 in the book.

01:23:31.180 A revival of civic duty.

01:23:33.500 I think that we talk

01:23:34.400 a lot about freedom

01:23:35.280 and liberty

01:23:35.740 and I talk a lot about

01:23:36.840 reviving the path

01:23:37.960 to excellence

01:23:38.600 through the system

01:23:39.180 of free market capitalism

01:23:40.200 where everyone can

01:23:41.420 be the best version

01:23:42.480 of their individual self.

01:23:43.620 But I think we're missing

01:23:44.740 half the discussion

01:23:45.620 if we don't also talk

01:23:47.260 about the revival

01:23:48.200 of civic duty

01:23:49.500 and civic identity

01:23:50.440 and the revival

01:23:51.120 of the idea

01:23:51.600 of what it means

01:23:52.220 to be a citizen

01:23:52.920 and the obligations

01:23:54.040 and civic duties

01:23:54.920 that come with that.

01:23:56.040 The title of the book

01:23:56.860 is entitled

01:23:57.560 A Theory of Duty.

01:23:59.220 It's a play on John Rawls'

01:24:00.860 famous A Theory of Justice.

01:24:02.800 That was a North Star

01:24:03.900 for much of the liberal movement

01:24:04.960 for much of the latter

01:24:05.800 20th century.

01:24:06.540 I think that

01:24:08.060 A Theory of Duty

01:24:09.100 might be

01:24:09.740 as I call in the book

01:24:10.800 to borrow from an expression

01:24:12.080 of David Hume

01:24:12.740 our missing shade of red

01:24:14.780 in the conservative movement.

01:24:16.480 It is easy

01:24:17.280 to tear something down.

01:24:18.900 It is a lot harder

01:24:19.920 to fill

01:24:20.600 what we've torn down

01:24:21.820 with an affirmative

01:24:22.440 new vision instead.

01:24:24.260 I don't promise

01:24:24.960 to have

01:24:25.480 how could I

01:24:26.520 to have all the answers

01:24:27.740 in this particular book

01:24:29.440 but I do think

01:24:30.440 that that's at least

01:24:31.000 the conversation

01:24:31.800 we need to start

01:24:32.520 having more

01:24:33.200 on the right

01:24:33.880 or else

01:24:34.340 the thing

01:24:34.880 that we actually

01:24:35.400 care about

01:24:35.940 preserving

01:24:36.620 and having a nation

01:24:37.440 left at the end of it

01:24:38.300 we may have won

01:24:39.120 the argument

01:24:39.600 on the

01:24:39.980 what should we say

01:24:42.980 the fallen shackles

01:24:44.520 of a Pyrrhic victory

01:24:45.820 and I think that

01:24:46.960 at the end of the day

01:24:48.000 that's not what I think

01:24:48.740 any of us want

01:24:49.400 in our capacity

01:24:50.040 not as conservatives

01:24:50.740 but as Americans

01:24:51.500 that's going to have to start

01:24:52.740 at some point

01:24:53.280 I figured we might as well

01:24:54.020 start today.

01:24:55.400 What you mentioned

01:24:56.200 forgiveness

01:24:56.700 you know

01:24:57.140 how does

01:24:57.980 you write in the book

01:24:58.520 about a young

01:24:59.940 Indian friend of yours

01:25:00.900 who had like

01:25:01.760 the greatest grades

01:25:02.480 and the perfect SATs

01:25:03.760 and got rejected

01:25:04.520 from everybody

01:25:05.120 I mean for all

01:25:05.820 the top institutions

01:25:06.700 how does this person

01:25:08.460 forgive

01:25:08.760 how does this person

01:25:09.660 become part of the solution

01:25:10.900 like what

01:25:11.380 what is that person

01:25:12.560 supposed

01:25:12.920 elaborate on the story

01:25:13.940 if you don't mind

01:25:14.480 and then tell us

01:25:15.180 what

01:25:15.300 what is that person

01:25:16.180 supposed to do

01:25:16.520 he's a young guy

01:25:17.780 entering college now

01:25:18.800 so he's a guy

01:25:19.880 who had whatever

01:25:20.400 I forget the exact score

01:25:21.680 1550 let's call it

01:25:22.860 in the SAT

01:25:23.320 and above 4.0 GPA

01:25:24.760 call it a 4.5 plus GPA

01:25:26.920 great extracurricular

01:25:28.460 activities appear to be

01:25:29.500 a good writer

01:25:30.180 and there's

01:25:31.300 and I'll preface this

01:25:32.140 by saying as best

01:25:32.760 somebody can tell

01:25:33.300 there's nothing wrong

01:25:33.880 with this kid

01:25:34.500 applies to 15

01:25:35.740 of the top 30

01:25:36.640 universities in the country

01:25:37.980 gets rejected

01:25:38.800 from every single

01:25:40.040 one of them

01:25:40.700 now put yourself

01:25:41.920 in the shoes

01:25:42.400 of somebody

01:25:42.840 who's getting

01:25:43.280 that rejection

01:25:43.980 one after another

01:25:45.080 I mean at a certain point

01:25:46.580 the question is

01:25:46.980 what's wrong with me

01:25:48.140 and we've set up

01:25:48.940 the system to work that way

01:25:50.000 because Harvard

01:25:50.940 for example

01:25:51.480 my alma mater

01:25:52.060 and I think

01:25:53.300 one of the worst

01:25:53.660 perpetrators

01:25:54.120 of this anti-Asian

01:25:55.320 discrimination

01:25:55.740 has set itself up

01:25:57.300 to justify

01:25:58.060 and meet the standards

01:25:59.080 of historical

01:25:59.540 affirmative action laws

01:26:00.360 to say that

01:26:00.880 they're not

01:26:01.500 discriminating based

01:26:02.240 on race

01:26:02.760 they're just using

01:26:03.720 other attributes

01:26:04.500 like personality scores

01:26:05.800 it's your personality

01:26:06.540 it's amazing

01:26:08.320 it's actually just codified

01:26:09.500 you thought you were

01:26:10.380 making the problem better

01:26:11.120 you made it 10 times worse

01:26:12.420 and it's the same thing

01:26:13.780 they did with respect

01:26:14.400 to the so-called

01:26:15.240 Harvard's words

01:26:16.180 not mine

01:26:16.700 the Jewish problem

01:26:17.840 that Harvard had

01:26:18.760 only decades ago

01:26:20.480 and so

01:26:21.240 at the end of the day

01:26:22.220 put yourself in the shoes

01:26:23.020 of this kid

01:26:23.460 you know

01:26:24.080 it's not the end of the world

01:26:24.720 he's gonna get into

01:26:25.160 a perfectly fine state school

01:26:26.280 he's gonna go on

01:26:27.040 and get a great education

01:26:28.280 and live a normal life

01:26:29.540 well

01:26:29.960 look

01:26:30.620 if you're in his shoes

01:26:31.260 he's still the same talent

01:26:32.440 that should have gotten

01:26:34.040 into one of the nation's

01:26:35.060 top schools

01:26:36.100 maybe we can even

01:26:37.160 reinvent our definition

01:26:38.080 of what it means

01:26:38.740 to be a top school

01:26:39.760 the top schools

01:26:40.540 or the schools

01:26:40.980 that we call the top schools

01:26:42.360 30 years ago

01:26:43.020 aren't meritocratic institutions

01:26:44.220 why on earth

01:26:45.160 should the places

01:26:45.860 that I went

01:26:46.280 Harvard and Yale

01:26:46.860 be permanently

01:26:48.280 crowned

01:26:49.700 as the top schools

01:26:50.740 for the next century

01:26:51.400 when they're not actually

01:26:51.940 behaving that way

01:26:52.660 good question

01:26:53.260 so what do we do from here

01:26:54.980 part of

01:26:55.360 it's not just forgiveness

01:26:56.200 and some sort of passivity

01:26:57.340 and some sort of

01:26:58.060 you know

01:26:58.380 you know

01:26:58.900 I'm not

01:26:59.280 I don't aim to be

01:27:00.340 a theological figure here

01:27:01.780 by my mind

01:27:02.800 that's beyond my pay grade

01:27:04.580 but I mean

01:27:04.960 in terms of

01:27:05.820 I use forgiveness

01:27:06.560 more as a self-interested

01:27:07.720 form of that forgiveness

01:27:08.900 that's the sort of

01:27:09.620 Kantian case

01:27:10.480 the Immanuel Kant

01:27:11.660 self-interested rationality

01:27:13.600 people miss that

01:27:14.320 Immanuel Kant's version

01:27:15.760 of the golden rule

01:27:16.580 came not from

01:27:17.440 a belief in Christ

01:27:18.940 or a belief in God

01:27:19.780 but a belief in

01:27:20.960 cold-hearted rationality

01:27:22.660 that rationality demanded

01:27:24.080 that you treat others

01:27:24.940 as you want to be treated

01:27:25.840 because that's ultimately

01:27:27.460 what empowers him

01:27:28.320 to say that

01:27:28.740 you know what

01:27:29.020 I might have gone

01:27:29.440 to that state school

01:27:30.060 but you know what

01:27:30.440 the state school

01:27:31.060 might actually become

01:27:32.140 what it means

01:27:32.700 to have gone to a good school

01:27:33.640 because they were smart

01:27:34.300 enough to accept me

01:27:35.040 and I was smart enough

01:27:36.240 to be able to work hard

01:27:36.960 and still make my own way

01:27:38.220 in this world

01:27:38.780 and so that story

01:27:40.060 is still yet to be written

01:27:40.940 so the story isn't over yet

01:27:42.340 but I would prefer

01:27:43.580 to see it go in that direction

01:27:45.000 through the revival

01:27:45.760 of meritocracy

01:27:46.540 through new structures

01:27:47.740 through new institutions

01:27:48.640 rather than to wallow

01:27:50.720 in one's own victimhood

01:27:51.940 and expect recompense

01:27:53.880 or sorrow

01:27:54.500 as a consequence

01:27:55.640 yeah the answer

01:27:56.640 is to reject victimhood

01:27:57.980 at every turn

01:27:58.520 by the way

01:27:59.060 tell that guy

01:27:59.540 if he wants a job

01:28:00.260 in media to call me

01:28:01.120 when he's done

01:28:01.600 with his state school

01:28:02.500 be happy to talk to him

01:28:04.940 so that leads us to

01:28:07.240 what if we don't

01:28:08.100 what if we go

01:28:09.040 the wrong way

01:28:10.020 what if we stay

01:28:10.820 wallowing in victimhood

01:28:11.840 I mentioned this

01:28:12.660 the other day

01:28:13.040 I heard a great quote

01:28:13.940 in a book

01:28:14.420 I'm reading

01:28:14.980 it was

01:28:17.580 suffering is universal

01:28:19.180 victimhood is a choice

01:28:20.320 and so if we decide

01:28:23.580 to choose victimhood

01:28:24.520 more and more

01:28:25.660 and more on both sides

01:28:26.740 we wind up changing

01:28:28.760 the whole American experiment

01:28:29.960 we find out

01:28:30.980 very soon

01:28:31.800 we were never Rome

01:28:33.920 we were something else

01:28:35.480 entirely

01:28:36.080 we were Carthage

01:28:38.000 which I

01:28:38.920 I didn't go to Harvard

01:28:40.660 so explain Carthage

01:28:41.720 and how we might be Carthage

01:28:43.680 instead of Rome

01:28:44.300 and China might be Rome

01:28:45.280 well so I draw

01:28:46.780 an extended

01:28:47.320 allegory in the book

01:28:49.280 between the Punic Wars

01:28:50.700 between

01:28:51.260 between Rome and Carthage

01:28:53.120 the two great empires

01:28:53.940 of their day

01:28:54.520 we indulge ourselves

01:28:56.080 by asking ourselves

01:28:57.020 whether we were Rome

01:28:58.360 Greg Popovich

01:28:59.980 of the San Antonio Spurs

01:29:01.300 famously said

01:29:02.320 you know

01:29:02.640 in a way that was supposed

01:29:03.460 to be a critical

01:29:04.600 assessment of America

01:29:05.420 that we might be Rome

01:29:06.240 referring to the fall

01:29:07.000 I think I say in the book

01:29:07.740 because the Roman Empire

01:29:08.460 lasted thousands of years

01:29:09.800 we should be so lucky

01:29:11.100 as to be Rome

01:29:12.200 we might actually be Carthage

01:29:13.600 one of the other empires

01:29:14.520 that Rome went on to defeat

01:29:15.800 at many points

01:29:16.900 along the way

01:29:17.480 this was one of them

01:29:18.420 and one of the

01:29:19.720 one of the islands

01:29:21.060 that drew them into conflict

01:29:22.020 was Sicily

01:29:22.640 I worry that Taiwan

01:29:24.000 might be our modern version

01:29:26.000 of Sicily

01:29:26.840 and that if

01:29:27.920 you know

01:29:28.280 there's the famous

01:29:29.000 thought experiment

01:29:29.880 of Thucydides trap

01:29:31.160 Graham Allison popularized it

01:29:32.540 which said that

01:29:33.060 effectively when you have

01:29:34.260 an empire in decline

01:29:35.740 another rising empire

01:29:36.760 they're inevitably

01:29:37.480 destined to enter

01:29:39.200 into physical conflict

01:29:40.620 well that maps on

01:29:42.000 pretty well to where we are

01:29:42.900 not only with Rome and Carthage

01:29:44.040 you know a couple thousand

01:29:45.060 years ago

01:29:45.480 but with America

01:29:47.160 and China today

01:29:48.320 and so I do spend some time

01:29:49.720 going into the book

01:29:50.260 into some detail

01:29:51.040 on what's at stake

01:29:52.220 I mean

01:29:52.680 why does China care

01:29:53.900 about invading Taiwan

01:29:54.640 it's not just about

01:29:55.720 national pride

01:29:56.340 it's not just about hubris

01:29:57.280 people

01:29:57.560 this is not

01:29:58.480 Putin invading Ukraine

01:30:00.200 people miss this

01:30:01.280 about Xi Jinping

01:30:01.940 they're playing a long game

01:30:03.740 Taiwan

01:30:04.600 is the

01:30:05.840 mothership

01:30:07.200 of the global

01:30:08.420 semiconductor industry

01:30:09.720 Taiwan Semiconductor Company

01:30:10.820 and many other

01:30:11.740 Taiwan

01:30:11.960 TSMC

01:30:12.800 as well as many

01:30:14.200 other companies

01:30:15.040 in Taiwan

01:30:15.700 these are the world's

01:30:16.680 leaders

01:30:16.940 in producing

01:30:18.080 the semiconductors

01:30:18.920 that power

01:30:19.840 our iPhones

01:30:20.600 that power

01:30:21.180 our computers

01:30:21.580 that power

01:30:21.960 our refrigerators

01:30:22.800 that power

01:30:23.540 our modern

01:30:24.080 way of life

01:30:24.800 and the United States

01:30:26.280 is decades behind

01:30:27.740 China has

01:30:28.380 for their part

01:30:28.980 been decades behind too

01:30:30.220 so people forget this

01:30:31.480 is you know

01:30:32.380 as much as

01:30:32.840 we might worry about

01:30:33.580 the Chinese revival

01:30:34.400 of meritocracy

01:30:35.160 and they don't have

01:30:35.720 DEI over there

01:30:36.560 that's a competitive

01:30:37.080 advantage for them

01:30:37.760 and their engineers

01:30:38.380 you know

01:30:39.040 they do have

01:30:39.340 a command and control

01:30:40.060 system

01:30:40.500 that doesn't

01:30:41.000 actually work

01:30:41.520 to spawn

01:30:41.920 innovation either

01:30:42.520 but one of the

01:30:43.000 things they do have

01:30:43.780 increasingly is

01:30:44.680 military might

01:30:45.500 they might use

01:30:46.480 that I predict

01:30:47.200 starting

01:30:47.780 actually next month

01:30:49.080 starts the clock

01:30:49.980 Megan

01:30:50.340 I've long said this

01:30:51.540 Xi Jinping

01:30:52.300 takes his third

01:30:53.440 term

01:30:53.920 unprecedented third

01:30:54.880 term

01:30:55.220 as leader

01:30:55.940 of the Chinese

01:30:56.340 Communist Party

01:30:56.940 it's a two-term

01:30:57.540 system otherwise

01:30:58.180 he wasn't going

01:30:59.200 to rock the boat

01:30:59.920 before that

01:31:00.520 he wasn't going

01:31:00.980 to take the risk

01:31:01.500 of going to Taiwan

01:31:02.060 before that

01:31:02.620 but I think the

01:31:03.500 window between

01:31:04.040 next month

01:31:04.700 and say January

01:31:05.420 2025

01:31:06.000 when the next

01:31:07.320 U.S.

01:31:07.580 president could

01:31:08.100 take office

01:31:08.620 that's the

01:31:09.560 window we're

01:31:10.160 talking about

01:31:10.660 here

01:31:10.900 when I think

01:31:11.960 China is likely

01:31:12.520 to make a move

01:31:12.960 for Taiwan

01:31:13.360 and that I think

01:31:15.200 may call America's

01:31:16.580 bluff over the

01:31:17.440 course of the

01:31:17.960 last several years

01:31:18.860 our bluff

01:31:19.580 militarily

01:31:20.200 I go through

01:31:21.020 some naval

01:31:21.480 analysis in

01:31:22.140 terms of

01:31:22.480 comparing our

01:31:22.920 strength of our

01:31:23.440 navy versus

01:31:24.380 China's and

01:31:25.060 comparing how

01:31:25.500 that might come

01:31:26.000 to a head

01:31:26.420 over Taiwan

01:31:27.180 but even our

01:31:28.380 educational bluff

01:31:29.320 in terms of

01:31:29.980 whether or not

01:31:30.400 we were prepared

01:31:31.120 with the technical

01:31:31.840 and technological

01:31:32.520 talent and prowess

01:31:33.560 to be able to

01:31:34.380 compete in a

01:31:34.820 world where China

01:31:35.520 has full control

01:31:36.460 of the global

01:31:36.820 Senate conductor

01:31:37.280 supply chain

01:31:37.920 rather than

01:31:38.740 the United

01:31:39.100 States

01:31:39.640 and so

01:31:40.140 what's at stake

01:31:41.360 what if we

01:31:41.940 don't what if

01:31:42.600 we remain

01:31:43.220 committed to

01:31:43.720 victimhood

01:31:44.140 that's our

01:31:44.900 path to

01:31:45.400 a millennium

01:31:47.140 from now

01:31:47.560 being a bunch

01:31:48.240 of maybe

01:31:48.620 five centuries

01:31:49.820 from now

01:31:50.140 maybe two

01:31:50.520 centuries

01:31:50.800 from now

01:31:51.120 being a bunch

01:31:51.800 of Chinese

01:31:52.120 slaves that

01:31:52.580 look like

01:31:52.840 the ones

01:31:53.120 in Shenzhen

01:31:53.580 today

01:31:54.000 Shenzhen may

01:31:55.080 be a preview

01:31:55.500 of what's

01:31:55.840 to come

01:31:56.160 in the

01:31:56.560 state of

01:31:56.840 Indiana

01:31:57.100 or the

01:31:57.400 state of

01:31:57.640 California

01:31:58.100 I say

01:31:59.500 that to

01:31:59.720 be provocative

01:32:00.220 but not

01:32:00.720 because it's

01:32:01.480 actually so

01:32:02.000 preposterous

01:32:02.640 and at the

01:32:03.320 end of the

01:32:03.620 day

01:32:03.820 I said this

01:32:05.100 before I'll

01:32:05.400 say it again

01:32:05.700 it may be

01:32:06.520 necessity

01:32:07.060 that compels

01:32:08.080 us to

01:32:08.800 actually get

01:32:10.240 our act

01:32:10.540 together

01:32:10.860 to revive

01:32:11.660 merit

01:32:11.980 to revive

01:32:12.440 that shared

01:32:12.800 pursuit of

01:32:13.460 excellence

01:32:13.900 I hope

01:32:14.680 that my

01:32:15.060 book

01:32:15.320 or other

01:32:16.160 speakers

01:32:16.620 on this

01:32:17.060 topic

01:32:17.380 I hope

01:32:18.180 efforts

01:32:18.580 through the

01:32:18.900 private sector

01:32:19.480 like what I'm

01:32:19.900 trying to do

01:32:20.240 through strive

01:32:20.840 in our

01:32:21.080 economy

01:32:21.460 through others

01:32:22.280 I hope

01:32:22.620 brave leaders

01:32:23.040 who step

01:32:23.400 up in our

01:32:23.700 different

01:32:23.900 institutions

01:32:24.400 can compel

01:32:25.560 a better

01:32:26.580 return to

01:32:27.180 our path

01:32:27.620 towards excellence

01:32:28.680 in the meantime

01:32:29.400 but if it's

01:32:29.940 not going to

01:32:30.320 happen

01:32:30.600 organically

01:32:31.280 it's going

01:32:32.000 to happen

01:32:32.380 out of

01:32:32.900 necessity

01:32:33.300 and I

01:32:34.100 predict

01:32:34.580 that that

01:32:35.000 biggest

01:32:35.320 catalyst

01:32:35.760 that I

01:32:36.100 can see

01:32:36.320 in the next

01:32:36.620 couple of

01:32:37.000 years

01:32:37.280 is the

01:32:37.860 rise of

01:32:38.220 China

01:32:38.500 particularly

01:32:39.140 catalyzed

01:32:40.300 by its

01:32:41.080 intentions

01:32:41.540 coming to

01:32:42.040 a head

01:32:42.460 through its

01:32:42.960 invasion

01:32:43.380 or else

01:32:43.840 a blockade

01:32:44.400 of Taiwan

01:32:44.860 which is

01:32:45.260 going to

01:32:45.420 hit us

01:32:45.680 here at

01:32:45.980 home

01:32:46.240 far harder

01:32:47.100 than

01:32:47.540 Vladimir Putin's

01:32:48.280 invasion of

01:32:48.760 Ukraine

01:32:49.000 ever did

01:32:49.460 I mean

01:32:50.980 if God

01:32:51.560 forbid we

01:32:51.960 ever find

01:32:52.340 ourselves

01:32:52.620 in a

01:32:52.880 military

01:32:53.140 conflict

01:32:53.520 with China

01:32:53.960 we'll be

01:32:54.340 well served

01:32:54.840 if we can

01:32:55.220 do more

01:32:55.520 than just

01:32:59.400 well

01:33:00.280 they don't

01:33:01.180 have as

01:33:01.460 many people

01:33:01.940 of color

01:33:02.340 or trans

01:33:03.000 soldiers

01:33:03.940 as we

01:33:04.360 do

01:33:04.540 so we

01:33:04.880 should

01:33:05.080 well

01:33:05.420 no

01:33:05.740 Vivek

01:33:06.860 you have

01:33:07.040 a way

01:33:07.220 of shining

01:33:07.580 a light

01:33:07.860 on all

01:33:08.140 these

01:33:08.300 issues

01:33:08.600 that's

01:33:09.220 unlike

01:33:09.460 anybody

01:33:09.820 else

01:33:10.080 it's

01:33:10.280 nice

01:33:10.500 and

01:33:10.680 clear

01:33:11.060 I'm

01:33:11.460 sad

01:33:11.720 we didn't

01:33:11.960 even

01:33:12.120 get to

01:33:12.380 the

01:33:12.500 ESG

01:33:12.940 corporate

01:33:13.440 war

01:33:14.040 that

01:33:14.240 Vivek

01:33:14.520 is

01:33:14.660 single

01:33:14.860 handedly

01:33:15.140 fighting

01:33:15.480 but buy

01:33:16.440 the book

01:33:16.840 and support

01:33:17.400 him

01:33:17.620 for reasons

01:33:18.120 that should

01:33:18.460 be

01:33:18.600 obvious

01:33:18.920 to you

01:33:19.200 having

01:33:19.400 listened

01:33:19.680 to him

01:33:20.040 this

01:33:21.580 just

01:33:21.840 in

01:33:22.060 breaking

01:33:22.380 news

01:33:22.800 CNN

01:33:23.160 reporting

01:33:23.720 that

01:33:29.400 golf

01:33:30.020 so

01:33:32.080 everyone

01:33:33.280 who freaked

01:33:33.800 out

01:33:34.160 can

01:33:34.440 sim

01:33:35.140 the

01:33:35.380 mer

01:33:35.660 calm

01:33:36.860 down

01:33:37.320 he's

01:33:38.080 golfing

01:33:38.600 not

01:33:39.040 getting

01:33:39.260 indicted

01:33:39.640 what a

01:33:41.080 shock

01:33:41.360 listen

01:33:42.080 before we

01:33:42.480 go

01:33:42.580 I want

01:33:42.780 to give

01:33:42.920 you a

01:33:43.100 preview

01:33:43.340 of what

01:33:43.660 we have

01:33:43.880 coming up

01:33:44.240 this

01:33:44.400 month

01:33:44.620 on the

01:33:44.820 show

01:33:44.960 because

01:33:45.200 we have

01:33:45.480 some

01:33:45.620 great

01:33:46.020 ones

01:33:46.280 to

01:33:46.440 celebrate

01:33:46.700 our

01:33:46.860 two

01:33:47.080 year

01:33:47.260 anniversary

01:33:47.640 as a

01:33:47.980 show

01:33:48.240 and

01:33:48.380 our

01:33:48.480 one

01:33:48.660 year

01:33:48.820 on

01:33:48.960 Sirius

01:33:49.240 we

01:33:49.680 got

01:33:49.840 Malcolm

01:33:50.240 Gladwell

01:33:50.800 on

01:33:51.100 Thursday

01:33:51.720 his

01:33:52.360 first

01:33:52.580 time

01:33:52.760 on

01:33:52.840 the

01:33:52.920 show

01:33:53.100 since

01:33:53.320 our

01:33:53.440 move

01:33:53.580 to

01:33:53.700 Sirius

01:33:59.400 excited

01:33:59.680 for

01:33:59.840 that

01:34:00.060 cannot

01:34:00.420 wait

01:34:00.780 it'll

01:34:01.380 take

01:34:01.580 place

01:34:01.760 live

01:34:02.180 in

01:34:02.380 person

01:34:02.620 at

01:34:02.780 the

01:34:02.880 Sirius

01:34:03.160 XM

01:34:03.440 studios

01:34:03.980 later

01:34:04.660 this

01:34:04.860 month

01:34:05.040 we're

01:34:05.200 going to

01:34:05.340 celebrate

01:34:05.580 our

01:34:05.760 two

01:34:05.920 year

01:34:06.080 anniversary

01:34:06.460 with

01:34:06.820 a

01:34:07.160 guest

01:34:07.360 like

01:34:07.580 British

01:34:07.980 Bridget

01:34:08.540 Phetasy

01:34:09.020 who's

01:34:09.380 not

01:34:09.540 been

01:34:09.680 on

01:34:09.860 since

01:34:10.000 December

01:34:10.340 2020

01:34:10.740 everybody

01:34:11.120 loved

01:34:11.360 that

01:34:11.500 interview

01:34:11.800 old

01:34:12.580 pals

01:34:12.880 like

01:34:13.060 Ben

01:34:13.320 Shapiro

01:34:13.720 Dave

01:34:14.040 Rubin

01:34:14.420 Rubin

01:34:14.900 will be

01:34:15.180 back

01:34:15.420 just

01:34:15.620 a

01:34:15.780 taste

01:34:16.100 of

01:34:16.240 what

01:34:16.340 we've

01:34:16.520 got

01:34:16.760 stored

01:34:17.500 up

01:34:17.680 for

01:34:17.800 you

01:34:17.880 you

01:34:17.900 you

01:34:17.980 gonna

01:34:18.180 love

01:34:18.520 it

01:34:18.660 please

01:34:18.960 subscribe

01:34:19.360 in the

01:34:19.580 meantime

01:34:19.980 youtube.com

01:34:21.060 slash

01:34:21.260 Megan

01:34:21.500 Kelly

01:34:21.820 or

01:34:22.020 anywhere

01:34:22.380 you

01:34:22.580 get

01:34:22.720 your

01:34:22.860 podcast

01:34:23.220 for

01:34:23.420 free

01:34:23.720 we'll

01:34:24.040 talk

01:34:24.240 tomorrow

01:34:24.560 thanks

01:34:27.260 for

01:34:27.400 listening

01:34:27.680 to

01:34:27.860 the

01:34:27.980 Megan

01:34:28.160 Kelly

01:34:28.400 show

01:34:28.780 no

01:34:29.240 BS

01:34:29.660 no

01:34:30.040 agenda

01:34:30.420 and

01:34:31.080 no

01:34:31.280 fear

The Megyn Kelly Show - September 12, 2022

Trump Associates Raided, and Victimhood in America, with Sharyl Attkisson and Vivek Ramaswamy ｜ Ep. 389

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