The Megyn Kelly Show - Trump Convicted - Now What？ Expert Legal Analysis, with Aidala, Eiglarsh, Dershowitz, Geragos, Aronberg, Davis, and Holloway｜ Ep. 807

00:00:00.520 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:11.380 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:14.560 Former President Donald Trump found guilty on all 34 counts, as you know by now,

00:00:19.260 by a New York City jury late Thursday afternoon.

00:00:23.040 What does that mean for him now, for the legal system, and for America,

00:00:28.920 meaning the rest of us? I shared some of my thoughts last night in a bonus episode,

00:00:33.340 which you can find on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, and all the podcasts and video platforms.

00:00:37.880 Today, we have perhaps the most impressive legal panel ever assembled. I'm not kidding.

00:00:42.780 You're going to hear right here from Alan Dershowitz, Mark Garagos, Mike Davis, Dave Ehrenberg,

00:00:49.160 and Phil Holloway. But we begin with two Kellys Court all-stars and originals.

00:00:54.980 Martha, Arthur Idalla, trial attorney and managing partner for Idalla, Bertuna, and

00:00:59.260 Caimans, and host of Arthur Idalla Power Hour. And Mark Eiglarsh, criminal defense attorney for

00:01:04.760 Eiglarsh Law, which you can find at speaktomark.com.

00:01:11.080 Guys, welcome back to the show. So they did it. They went ahead and did it. And now Trump is

00:01:16.260 officially, as you might have heard, all over CNN and MS, a convicted felon.

00:01:21.660 So, Arthur, let me start with you as the New York trial attorney. What's going to happen to him now?

00:01:28.420 Well, right now, his lawyers should be preparing a substantial sentencing memorandum. I mean,

00:01:34.040 I did a state sentence yesterday, like moments before this verdict. And it's a little like 25,

00:01:41.660 30, but Trump maybe a 50-page, like, this is your life, Judge Machant. These are all the reasons

00:01:46.820 why a disposition, which we would be asking for, of a conditional discharge, meaning there's no jail,

00:01:55.200 there's no probation, there's no community service, there's no fines. The fact that he went through

00:02:00.000 this experience was punishment enough for the crime that was committed. And conditional discharge,

00:02:06.600 the condition is don't get rearrested over the next five years, and you'll have no further problems.

00:02:12.140 If you do get rearrested in the next five years, you come back and you answer to the court, and the

00:02:16.400 court can adjust the sentence appropriately. We would create the statistics from the state of New

00:02:21.880 York about e-felony convictions, what the median sentence is. I believe you're going to find that

00:02:28.060 it is a non-jail sentence. If it is, it's very, very, very low. You add in that, forget about the

00:02:34.520 president of the United States, you add in a 77-year-old businessman, never in trouble in his life,

00:02:39.760 you convince the judge that jail is ridiculous, probation is a waste of time, effort, energy,

00:02:45.680 and money, and that really nothing should happen. Simultaneously, you're filing a notice of appeal,

00:02:51.480 and you're preparing the appeal to the Appellate Division, First Department. That whole process of

00:02:56.840 the appeal there will take probably right around one year. Arthur, we did a quick search to see what

00:03:03.880 we could find out about Judge Mershon and his sentencing. And here's just a couple of things that

00:03:09.380 we found. Former Manhattan assistant DA Stuart Meisner to Politico. Trump would likely, or Mershon

00:03:16.180 will likely sentence Trump to a term of incarceration. I don't think much, but I think

00:03:22.160 it would be included just to show that no one's above the law. Then there's Peter Tillam, New York

00:03:28.860 defense lawyer, former ADA in New York County DA's office in Manhattan. Judge Mershon is not known

00:03:35.060 as a draconian sentencer. He's not known to be the toughest sentencer in the building. I don't think

00:03:41.620 he'd want to start with this particular case. And then there's Ron Kuby, a veteran New York criminal

00:03:46.520 defense attorney, who says Judge Mershon is known for being a harsh sentencer when it comes to

00:03:52.520 white-collar crimes committed by people who have wealth and privilege and power. It's substantially

00:03:57.480 likely that Mershon will sentence Trump to jail or prison time. So this is where you practice,

00:04:02.540 this isn't, this is your bread and butter, this courtroom. What do you think? Well, I think

00:04:06.540 it's true. He does not have kind of all of the above. I don't, I think ultimately he's not going

00:04:11.820 to give him jail time. He's not known as being a draconian sentencer, but he's not known and being

00:04:17.320 as an easygoing guy either. Let's take it a step before that though, Megan. Alvin Bragg asks for jail

00:04:24.580 here, which I'm assuming he's going to. It's going to go down as one of the most critical statements

00:04:29.440 I've ever seen. This is an administration, the Bragg administration that ran on and has functioned

00:04:35.620 as the alternatives to incarceration. Everyone deserves a second chance, anything but jail

00:04:42.020 on violent crimes, on crimes of people who are predicate felons, meaning they already have a

00:04:47.100 felony conviction. All of a sudden in this lowest level paper crime, he asks for jail. It is beyond

00:04:53.800 preposterous, but I don't think, look, Mershon showed his cards a tiny little bit during

00:04:59.420 the ag order hearings where he said, I know you're the former president. I know you're the presumptive

00:05:06.980 nominee. I believe he said, I don't want to put you in jail. So if he's smart, he finds a creative

00:05:14.020 community service alternative where Donald Trump could use his money and his status to make New York

00:05:20.120 a little bit of a better place while he hurts Donald Trump or makes a little bit of a lesson

00:05:24.920 out of the exposure of it. This is a guy, Mark, Judge Mershon, sorry, Alvin Bragg,

00:05:32.240 who, when he came to office, promised that he wasn't going to prosecute marijuana misdemeanors,

00:05:40.220 prostitution, fare evasion, and instructed prosecutors in his office to avoid seeking jail time

00:05:47.560 for crimes including robbery, assault, and gun possession. There was such a revolt in the city

00:05:54.980 after that, and two cops got killed, gunned down in the prime of their lives, that he had to reverse,

00:06:02.100 he had to backtrack after blowback from the NYPD on that letter. But he didn't want his DAs,

00:06:08.940 his ADA seeking jail time for robbery or assault. So how is Alvin Bragg going to saunter into this

00:06:17.560 courtroom and try to get jail time for the former president of the United States on the falsification

00:06:23.160 of business records? I hope he doesn't. Look, the goal here in this case, in every case,

00:06:30.680 is justice. I love Aristotle's definition of justice, like cases being treated alike. One would argue

00:06:38.380 there's nothing like this. But the truth of the matter is, you can plausibly analogize this case

00:06:43.260 to the other 70-something-year-old first-time offenders. They've never been in trouble before

00:06:49.960 in the legal system. This is their first go-around. This is a white-collar, non-violent offense.

00:06:58.020 I think that in most cases, you would find that the state would ask for probation. Everything Arthur

00:07:04.780 said is accurate. I think it would be very hypocritical to come in and ask for his liberty

00:07:08.900 to be stripped. And also, one other thing, I don't see how they carry that out. I mean,

00:07:13.860 no one really has said exactly how that would work. But he's not going to leave his Secret Service guys

00:07:20.440 behind. And they're not going to remain unarmed. So what, they're going to bring guns into a jail

00:07:26.100 to sit by a cell? Like, that just doesn't make any sense.

00:07:29.220 Can we talk about probation? Yeah, go ahead, Arthur. And then we're going to talk about probation after

00:07:33.560 your point. About the jail part of it. Because during the trial, there was a possibility, right,

00:07:39.620 when he was violating the gag orders. The Department of Corrections, as I believe has already,

00:07:44.500 or I've been told, identified a section of the prison, if he was sent, believe it or not,

00:07:49.960 if he was actually sent to Rikers Island. You know, during the court, they'd be able to keep him in the

00:07:54.960 courthouse, and there are secure facilities there where they could keep him. But after,

00:08:00.880 if the judge actually sentences him to, let's say, three days in jail, which basically means he's got

00:08:05.380 to do a day, they would just find, or they've already identified, like, a private area where he

00:08:11.160 could be. But he would be without his phone, without TV, you know, all of those things.

00:08:15.700 What about Secret Service? Where are we sitting in the service? In the cell next to him?

00:08:19.880 Yeah, no, probably sitting right outside the cell, making sure no one's going to bother him,

00:08:24.340 no one's going to arrive. No guns, no weapons to protect the president.

00:08:28.200 He would be poured out of his mind. That would be really his punishment,

00:08:31.660 because the last time he didn't have a TV, a phone, a newspaper,

00:08:34.820 well, maybe they would give him a newspaper, seriously, or a book,

00:08:37.580 and he would have to sit there for 24 hours.

00:08:40.800 Let's talk about probation. Probation, now, this is, okay, discussed on the Daily,

00:08:49.040 the New York Times, I mean, the left-wing press, you can actually hear the smiles through the

00:08:53.180 reporting on podcasting and on radio. You can hear the smiles. They're so, go ahead and listen.

00:08:59.640 I dare you to listen to NPR's Up First today. They were giggling like a bunch of middle school

00:09:05.380 girls at a pool party. I mean, it was absurd. Here's the New York Times, the Daily, saying,

00:09:12.700 often people on probation have to meet with their probation officer and tell them what they are

00:09:18.800 doing for work. So if he is elected as president, he will have to meet with a probation officer

00:09:24.900 and explain to him, I'm president. Now, does anyone think that's actually going to happen? They go on

00:09:32.840 to say people on probation are not supposed to associate with known felons. So what's going to

00:09:38.340 happen? The probation officer is going to be like, Steve Bannon can't come in here, sir. He's out.

00:09:42.180 Peter Navarro, out. No. You and Michael Cohen having it out, man to man, out. You can't associate

00:09:48.300 with known felons. Sure, sure. And pointing out you have to tell probation officers your known travel

00:09:54.540 plans. And so now you have, you actually have speculation in the press, Trump would be elected

00:10:00.840 as president and he would not be allowed to travel as our world. This is, I'm sorry, this is left-wing

00:10:08.920 fantasy land. So you don't have to just let them know your travel plans. You have to get approval

00:10:14.500 from the Department of Probation to travel plans. But listen, Judge Michon, if he does sentence him

00:10:21.880 to probation, he has the ability to alter all of those, all of those qualifications, all of those

00:10:29.480 recommendations, the standard operating things. And look, I just had a guy and the judge said,

00:10:35.380 I said, Judge, he travels to New Jersey, Connecticut and Rhode Island for work. Okay,

00:10:39.060 I'll mark the papers. He's allowed to do that without checking in. So if he did ever sentence

00:10:43.980 him to probation, which is such a ridiculous idea, what a waste of time, effort, energy, and money. 0.74

00:10:49.640 But if he did do that, he would have to be, he would have to lose his mind, Judge Michon,

00:10:54.200 to keep that travel restriction on the books. And if he did, I would pray to God that the Department

00:11:00.500 of Probation of the city and state of New York would be smart enough to say, okay, Mr. President,

00:11:06.900 you could travel wherever you want. Just have someone on your staff, let us know where you are.

00:11:12.120 Here's what we're going to get, Mark. We're going to get a probation officer who says, Mr. President,

00:11:18.520 this will be, you know, in July. You can travel wherever you want, except Wisconsin, Michigan,

00:11:24.960 Pennsylvania, Colorado. Other than that, you're good.

00:11:31.560 Right. And now that I'm done listing the states you can't go to, can I get a urine sample?

00:11:36.480 Right, right, right, right, right, right. Realistically, Mark, realistically, you're

00:11:41.540 advising Donald Trump at this point. I was being realistic about the urine sample,

00:11:44.520 by the way. Oh, my God. I mean, that's one thing I don't think Trump does. He likes Sudafed,

00:11:48.300 but he doesn't do drugs. My clients be in the cup. They have to go in the cup for them.

00:11:52.900 Yeah, yeah. Meanwhile, that's the one detail Stormy Daniels didn't share but wanted to,

00:11:58.000 the in-depth description of Trump's private parts. Apparently, even Judge Michon had his limits.

00:12:03.660 Um, so what would you be telling him to expect on July 11th when he actually gets sentenced?

00:12:10.980 Well, expect that he finds just a little humility just for a second, because the guy that he is

00:12:16.720 taking shots at every single moment is the one who can sentence him to immediate custody and make that

00:12:24.820 happen. So the first thing I would do is say, look, it's been fine up till now or not fine,

00:12:29.660 but okay, we've accepted up until now. But as we go into court, this is the one opportunity where

00:12:35.080 this guy's making a decision. Assuming he hasn't already made the decision months ago,

00:12:39.960 let's just, just, you know, try to be humble. Let's present the mitigation and let's see what

00:12:44.880 he does. You're sweet. Then he'd say, Mark, you're fired. Try to be humble. That's not what he's

00:12:51.160 going to do. Go ahead, Arthur. Let's just play that out. Cause I know you got all these great

00:12:54.960 guests coming on, but I don't know how much of them have actually been in this exact situation.

00:13:00.040 It's very unique in New York. So let's say he sentences him to three days in jail,

00:13:05.020 three months, whatever it is. Immediately you say to Mershon, your honor, and my client be held

00:13:12.020 in the back. So he's got to leave the courtroom once the judge leaves the bench and allow me the

00:13:16.860 opportunity to go to the appellate division. This is the one and only time in the court process in

00:13:22.780 the state of New York, you get to pick your judge. So if the 20 some odd judges in the appellate

00:13:27.480 division, you already have a judge lined up and you say, judge, my client's being sentenced at 11

00:13:33.720 o'clock. I would like to have a tentative appointment with you at 1 PM or 1 30. We come over and see you

00:13:39.420 then if there's a period of incarceration, the judge says, yes, you run over there with the prosecutor.

00:13:46.300 You have some paperwork. You have to show the judge at the appellate division,

00:13:50.980 the likelihood of success at the appellate level. So you can't go in there with some frivolous

00:13:56.460 documents. You can't say, oh, he's president. You can't do this. You have to say, judge,

00:14:00.820 look at these unique circumstances never done before. You cannot let this guy go to jail for

00:14:06.100 three minutes, let alone three days, because by the time his appeal gets perfected, there's no

00:14:11.680 redress. He can't get those three days back. And more likely than not under those circumstances,

00:14:16.840 because you get to pick the judge who's going to be a reasonable judge, the judge will stay the

00:14:21.500 prison time until the appeal is over. So this jail time thing will get put on the side

00:14:27.380 until the appeal is totally perfected. And if he loses the appeal at both the appellate division

00:14:32.460 and the court of appeals, if they allow him to go up there, then he would have to do his three days in

00:14:37.080 jail. And there'd be good cause. And could he appeal to the court of appeals right away if the

00:14:40.680 appellate division, like let's say the appellate division judge says you don't have to, you don't

00:14:44.720 have to do the jail time. Can the prosecutor take it up to the court of appeals right away?

00:14:49.180 No. If the appellate division, if the appellate, he has no redress after that Trump does. If the

00:14:54.980 appellate division denies him and says you got to do the three days, he cannot go to the court of

00:14:58.960 appeals. I don't see a way for him to go to the federal court. He's just, that's just done. But if the

00:15:04.560 judge does say you don't have to do the jail time right now until the appeal is over, there's nowhere

00:15:08.440 for the prosecutor to go. And if he loses his overall appeal at the appellate division, it is

00:15:12.900 not automatic that he gets to go to the court of appeals. Either a court of appeals judge has to

00:15:18.400 invite him up, or if there's a lower court judge who's in the dissent, that that lower court judge

00:15:23.600 can send him up. I mean, I just don't see any way this doesn't ultimately get resolved by an

00:15:30.580 appellate court, whether it's the New York State Court of Appeals or the U.S. Supreme Court.

00:15:34.560 But none of that matters because the election will have taken place.

00:15:38.320 Megan, I am not as confident as you on that issue. But let me just say, Arthur mentioned that,

00:15:44.640 you know, the chances, what would be his chances of staying that sentence? I think that they're

00:15:51.680 great. I think that there's more than just he's the president, keep him out. I think all you have

00:15:56.020 to do is raise that one issue about the jury instructions. They were either correct or they

00:16:01.020 weren't. And that issue alone, I think, would serve as the basis to grant him a stay. And so

00:16:07.940 he doesn't serve the sentence. And even before that, are you allowed for the first time to take

00:16:13.080 a misdemeanor out of the statute of limitations and concoct this new system to figure out an underlying

00:16:18.460 crime? Yeah, Frankenstein. It's a Frankenstein charge. But wait, but Mark, so what would you be

00:16:23.320 telling, because I want to talk to you about this. So what is expected of him? Like an allocution?

00:16:28.660 What does he what does he need to say when he goes in for sentencing? Because what we all expect

00:16:34.120 him to say is basically F off. You're corrupt. This is outrageous. Go ahead and do your thing. 1.00

00:16:41.440 The truth is, I just went into generic, you know, 30 years of experience mode. It doesn't apply to

00:16:46.800 Trump. And it and it would look it would look hollow anyway, you know, and insincere if all of a

00:16:51.620 sudden in front. So I take it back. Truth of the matter is, you know, keep doing what you're doing.

00:16:56.100 Um, it's not going to make a difference. The judge already, I think, has decided what he's

00:17:00.720 going to do. Doesn't matter, you know, how many letters of of, you know, character or recommendation

00:17:05.540 you get. Doesn't matter. I think this judge has decided what that is. We'll wait and see. I still

00:17:11.300 think it'll be non non jail. I think Mark is 100%. I think Mark's 100% correct. Under normal

00:17:17.740 circumstances. You mentioned the term allocution. Allocution is only when you will plead guilty and

00:17:22.700 you accept responsibility. Here, he's not accepting responsibility. He's been found

00:17:26.680 guilty after a trial. So he doesn't have to accept responsibility. He can stand there and say,

00:17:31.680 judge, I know what the jury said. And we were, we'll never say that. I know what the jury said.

00:17:36.640 I'm innocent. I didn't do anything wrong. I had no intent to cook any books or do anything.

00:17:41.720 I did have an intent to shut up, Stormy Daniels, about something that I'm telling you didn't happen.

00:17:46.480 But that's that. Your sentence is going to be whatever it should be.

00:17:49.140 I think this whole system stinks. I don't think I had a fair chance. I think these jurors were

00:17:53.840 against me from the get go. And you know what, judge? I think you were against me from the get

00:17:56.840 go. But you're going to sentence me, whatever you're going to sentence me, and we'll take it

00:18:00.120 from there. That's exactly what he's going to say. Arthur. Arthur's like, like, like he's looking

00:18:06.960 at his script already. That's exactly. I want to agree with you on something. And I hate to say this.

00:18:13.120 I hate to say this. I agree with you. It's not that easy with this appeal because Megan,

00:18:17.760 the appellate division is appointed by the last four or five governors, all the Democrats,

00:18:23.540 Cuomo, Spitzer, Patterson, Hochul, they're going to have a lot of pressure on them not

00:18:28.500 to reverse this. When you get to the court of appeals, they have shown a lot of courage.

00:18:33.020 They've shown a lot of guts. So maybe that could happen. But in the last case I did that went to

00:18:37.620 the court of appeals, it took four years from the date of conviction or the date of sentence,

00:18:41.760 I should say, to the date of reversal. So, you know, this is a long road to hold.

00:18:46.460 So nothing's going to happen fast. I don't know. It's not going to happen fast, Megan. I don't

00:18:51.400 know if you really, really meant it or whether it was more like hopeful when you said, oh,

00:18:55.900 this is definitely because I saw you say that. I went I said out loud to my kids. I go, Megan's

00:19:00.200 Megan's not right on this one. I don't think it's guaranteed to be overturned. In fact, many of the

00:19:06.580 things that happened during the trial and I've just been the victim of this many times where you go,

00:19:11.020 this is definitely going to be reversed. And then at best, they'll say, yeah, it was error.

00:19:17.580 The judge shouldn't have done this, but it's harmless error. We're going to let it go.

00:19:21.620 No, it's not going to be upheld. You guys, it's not for multiple reasons. Number one,

00:19:25.640 you're right. The state constitution of New York was violated. It is not OK to just incorporate by

00:19:31.360 reference the entire criminal law. If he tried to falsify the business records by unlawful means that

00:19:38.080 that's how we got the dead misdemeanor resurrected up to a felony, because he said they violated the

00:19:43.360 New York election law, which says you can't win an election or try to win an election by unlawful

00:19:49.180 means. And that unlawful means is so amorphous as to effectively incorporate by reference all federal

00:19:56.460 law and all New York state law, whether it's New York state tax law, federal election law, New York state

00:20:03.780 business record law. That's all the foundation of Alvin Bragg's case. So he's admitting that those

00:20:08.680 two words, unlawful means are actually an incorporation by reference of all law. That's

00:20:14.060 not OK. That violates the New York state constitution, which requires specificity when first so that

00:20:20.940 future defendants know what the law is and is not. It's going down. Mark my words. And that's the

00:20:27.500 argument. That's a great argument. That's one of them. That's one of them. But you're saying that the

00:20:32.380 court's not likely to take it. I'm saying they're going to take it and they're going to strike it

00:20:35.520 down on New York state constitutional grounds. In addition to the due process arguments, you may

00:20:40.440 be right for that reason, but they also may find just the opposite. And then that becomes law.

00:20:45.660 No, I don't think they find the opposite. Megan, by the way, I'm going to make this personally,

00:20:49.260 Megan, you know who agrees with every word that just came out of your mouth? My father. He said,

00:20:53.540 how do you defend yourself? He said, it's creating a false document to commit a crime in the book.

00:21:02.740 Right. You're going to defend yourself against every single crime in the penal law.

00:21:06.080 It seems so unfair. It seems so unfair. And as trial lawyers, I'd lose my mind. You know,

00:21:12.160 you mentioned the other day, Arthur, about a bill of particulars. Why couldn't they have nailed that

00:21:17.560 down and found out in advance these are the three options? And then throughout the trial,

00:21:22.240 the defense could have then fought against those three and not been allegedly surprised.

00:21:26.220 Mm hmm. But Greg said at the press conference when he was asked several times,

00:21:31.580 what is the underlying crime? And he said, the Constitution, the laws of the state of New York

00:21:36.200 do not obligate me to tell you what they are. And that is true.

00:21:40.420 Right. It's true in a burglary case, which is in the state, which yes. But in a burglary case,

00:21:46.560 which is in the statute of limitations, which is already a felony, you don't have to be unanimous

00:21:51.040 on what the underlying crime is that you went into the house for. But this is not that case.

00:21:56.020 It's a misdemeanor out of the statute of limitations. It should be a higher standard

00:22:00.800 that needs to be reached. The jury should have had to be unanimous about what that underlying crime

00:22:06.540 was. And we don't know if it was four, four, four, three, two, nine, three, whatever. And to me,

00:22:12.280 I think Megan's right. That is a violation of state and federal.

00:22:16.760 So we're clear. So we're clear to minimize the hate mail. I agree with each of you. And I like that

00:22:22.920 argument. I just don't have the same. You sound like RFK Jr. He came on the show yesterday,

00:22:27.360 reversed himself on every position as soon as I pushed back on him.

00:22:30.100 I didn't reverse it. I'm saying I don't have the confidence in the appellate court. This isn't

00:22:34.160 how Mark Eichler feels. I don't know that it's as certain and a slam dunk reversal as you're saying.

00:22:41.120 That's all I'm saying. The reason why I fear Megan,

00:22:43.580 I'm on record. But here's the only reason why I'm pushing back about the certainty. And I'm a little

00:22:48.100 scarred. Five Appellate Division judges heard the Weinstein case and seven Court of Appeals

00:22:54.840 judges heard it. Only four agreed that it was egregious behavior by the trial judge.

00:23:00.160 The Appellate Division, it was five, nothing to affirm it. There was no problem with having all

00:23:04.440 these other people testify. It was no problem having these crazy other things come in if he

00:23:08.620 testified. Five to nothing. And then at the Appellate Division-

00:23:12.580 I get it, but there's also the U.S. Supreme Court. There's also the U.S. Supreme Court,

00:23:16.160 which is not going to see this the same way as the New York State Appellate Division.

00:23:20.600 They're going to understand what a Frankenstein it is and how this defendant was not afforded due

00:23:25.300 process under the federal constitution or, as I just pointed out, the state. They're going to see it.

00:23:29.900 They're going to see it clearly. I actually think every single one of the conservatives will see it.

00:23:33.080 I think it'll be a 6-3 decision. It doesn't matter for electoral purposes. The election comes in

00:23:38.140 November. There's zero chance anything happens before then. But I'm just saying, ultimately,

00:23:41.800 this is going to be reversed and I have zero doubt about it. Here's Trump and what I think he's going

00:23:46.820 to sound like talking to Judge Mershon on July 11th during the sentencing. This may have been a

00:23:52.640 preview. He had a presser this morning at 11 a.m. Sot 2. There's never been a more conflicted judge.

00:23:59.700 Now, I'm under a gag order, which nobody's ever been under. No presidential candidate's ever been

00:24:04.500 under a gag order before. I'm under a gag order, nasty gag order, where I've had to pay thousands

00:24:11.620 of dollars in penalties and fines and was threatened with jail. So I'm the leading person for president,

00:24:18.180 and I'm under a gag order by a man that can't put two sentences together, given by a court. And

00:24:25.400 they are in total conjunction with the White House and the DOJ, just so you understand. As far as the

00:24:30.900 trial itself, it was very unfair. We weren't allowed to use our election expert under any

00:24:40.120 circumstances. You saw what happened to some of the witnesses that were on our side. They were

00:24:46.300 literally crucified by this man who looks like an angel, but he's really a devil.

00:24:52.500 I literally, literally crucified. I don't know what a nasty gag order is. I'm not sure. But see,

00:25:00.280 this is where Trump shoots himself in the foot. We don't know that Biden is involved with this judge

00:25:06.660 and the White House is involved. That's where he loses credibility. He could just say that this judge

00:25:12.320 is one of the only judges in the courthouse who made a donation to Joe Biden's campaign in

00:25:18.100 violation of the judicial ethics rules. So you know where he stands. Everything I just said

00:25:23.120 is accurate. He could just say that and that casts the truth on the judge.

00:25:28.380 That's right. And there was a pretty extraordinary piece, you guys. I know we've been talking about,

00:25:33.360 Arthur, how you've been going on CNN. And there is a former prosecutor there named Ellie Honig, 0.96

00:25:38.420 CNN contributor who's writing in New York Magazine today. These are left-wing media. And

00:25:45.080 pointing out how ridiculous these charges are and saying, um, prosecutors got their man for now, 0.87

00:25:54.040 at least, but they also contorted the law in an unprecedented manner in their quest to snare

00:25:59.880 their prey and goes on to say things like this judge donated money, a tiny amount, $35,

00:26:07.580 but in plain violation of a rule prohibiting New York judges from making political donations of any kind

00:26:13.040 two, a pro-Biden, anti-Trump political operation, including funds that the judge earmarked for,

00:26:22.000 quote, resisting the Republican Party and Donald Trump's radical right-wing legacy.

00:26:29.660 And he very fairly points out, would folks have been just fine with the judge staying on the case

00:26:34.620 if he had donated a couple of bucks to reelect Donald Trump, MAGA forever?

00:26:39.720 Absolutely not. Very fair point by Ellie Honig. This is amazing that he was allowed to stay on,

00:26:46.540 that he didn't recuse.

00:26:47.280 I didn't know about that donation. That is the image of impropriety at a minimum.

00:26:50.580 I was surprised he didn't recuse himself.

00:26:52.820 MAGA, I just want to say a word about Ellie Honig. Through this whole thing,

00:26:55.980 this media blitz I've been going through, he's one of the highlights of everyone I've met.

00:27:00.780 I met a lot of new people. And he's a quality lawyer, and he's a quality individual. And you

00:27:06.640 know where he works and what journal he was writing for. And it takes some courage to write

00:27:11.780 what he wrote, and he should be complimented for that.

00:27:14.280 I have to say, I've enjoyed Ellie Honig's coverage. I actually do find him, to be fair,

00:27:19.160 even prior to this piece. And I don't say that about most people. So kudos to him. But he went on

00:27:26.260 to say as follows. The DA's charges against Trump push the outer boundaries of the law and due

00:27:32.160 process. That's not on the jury. That's on the prosecutors who chose to bring this case and the

00:27:36.760 judge who let it play out as he did. And he talks about how he inflated the charges, how he incorporated

00:27:44.740 by reference these three other possible crimes and so on. And he actually said, many have called

00:27:52.120 this a zombie case. It's better characterized as the Frankenstein case, cobbled together with

00:27:57.320 ill-fitting parts into an ugly, awkward, but more or less functioning contraption that just might

00:28:02.540 ultimately turn on its creator. I hope that's true. I think Alvin Bragg has disgraced himself.

00:28:09.060 That's what I think. He's disgraced himself by using the law to get a political enemy instead of

00:28:14.520 to get justice. You guys are the greatest. Thanks so much for being a part of this show since it's

00:28:19.400 done and even prior to. Martha, you guys are the greatest. Thanks for being here.

00:28:23.300 Real quick, ask Dershowitz or someone how this case gets to the United States Supreme Court,

00:28:28.180 just logistically, because I know through the New York state system, but I don't know how

00:28:32.860 SCOTUS actually gets it. And one of those great guests will have the answer. And as a consumer,

00:28:37.540 I'd like to know. He's up next. Thank you for teeing up my next panel very, very nicely. See you guys.

00:28:44.700 Thank you so much, Maggie. Bye. All right. Up next, Dersh and Mark Garagos return.

00:28:51.300 But I'm out there and I don't mind being out there because I'm doing something for this country and

00:28:56.200 I'm doing something for our constitution. It's very important, far beyond me. And this can't be

00:29:02.540 allowed to happen to other presidents. It should never be allowed to happen in the future. But this

00:29:08.800 is far beyond me. This is bigger than Trump. This is bigger than me. This is bigger than my presidency.

00:29:13.120 So we're going to be appealing this scam. We're going to be appealing it on many different things.

00:29:19.460 He wouldn't allow us to have witnesses. He wouldn't allow us to talk. He wouldn't allow

00:29:22.800 us to do anything. The judge was a tyrant. So we will continue the fight. We're going to 0.73

00:29:29.340 make America great again. Very simple. Because everybody saw it was a rigged deal. It was a

00:29:33.620 rigged trial. But we're going to make America great again. We're going to make it better than ever

00:29:39.580 before. November 5th. Remember, November 5th is the most important day in the history of our country.

00:29:47.900 Hmm. Welcome back to The Megyn Kelly Show. That was Donald Trump this morning speaking out for the

00:29:54.360 first time about this jury verdict in full. Joining me now, Alan Dershowitz, professor emeritus at Harvard

00:30:00.360 Law School and author of Get Trump, and they did, and Mark Garagos, managing partner of Garagos and

00:30:06.620 Garagos and host of the Reasonable Doubt podcast. Guys, welcome back to the show. So Alan, let me pick it

00:30:12.400 up where we just left off with Arthur Idala and Mark Eiglarsh, where Arthur said, would you please

00:30:18.040 ask Professor Dershowitz how it is that Trump could get this case, if he needs to, to the U.S. Supreme

00:30:25.880 Court and passed what will be a heavily weighted Democrat bench at both levels, an immediate appellate

00:30:31.980 and court of appeals in New York. He should make an appeal to the New York Court of Appeals, asking them

00:30:38.820 to bypass the appellate division, because he's not going to get justice in the appellate division.

00:30:42.840 The appellate division are Manhattan judges that are elected, and they don't want to have to face

00:30:47.900 their families and say, we're the judge who will allow Trump to become the next president of the

00:30:52.380 United States. They don't want to be Dershowitz. They don't want to be treated in New York the way

00:30:57.640 I have been treated in Martha's Vineyard in Harvard and New York, because I defended Donald Trump.

00:31:02.480 So they should skip the appellate division, go to the New York Court of Appeals, ask for an expedited

00:31:07.300 appeal. In the meantime, prepare for an expedited appeal in the United States Supreme Court and say

00:31:13.560 that this was a rush to try to get this case a verdict, a conviction before election, and the

00:31:19.820 Supreme Court of the United States has an obligation to review this case before the election so that the

00:31:25.160 American public knows whether or not Donald Trump is guilty or not guilty of these made-up crimes.

00:31:31.960 You know, this is worse than Stalin and Lavrenti Beria. Lavrenti Beria said to Stalin,

00:31:39.100 show me the man and I'll find you the crime. Bragg tried to find the crime, but he couldn't because

00:31:45.260 his predecessor couldn't find the crime. The U.S. attorney couldn't find the crime. The FEC couldn't

00:31:50.140 find the crime. So he did worse than what happened in the Soviet Union. He made up a crime that didn't 0.83

00:31:56.760 exist. And he charged a political opponent with it. This will create a terrible precedent for how local

00:32:04.240 DAs will become involved in trying to influence not only local elections, but national elections as

00:32:10.440 well. Let me ask you a follow-up. Our audience probably knows that you're a famous criminal defense

00:32:16.800 attorney and Harvard law professor, but really you're one of the most famous appellate lawyers in the

00:32:21.460 country. And that's where we are now. So if you had to consult with Team Trump on grounds for appeal,

00:32:29.820 not the everything but the kitchen sink approach, which I know you take, but like your top three

00:32:34.820 favorites in this case, what comes to mind? Number one is Stormy Daniels. The New York Court 0.88

00:32:43.060 of Appeals recently held that the Weinstein, Harvey Weinstein, certainly not a popular defendant,

00:32:49.100 that his conviction had to be reversed because the court allowed the introduction of too many salacious

00:32:56.120 other accusations that really had nothing to do with the trial and also threatened to put in

00:33:03.980 other material if he took the witness stand. So the first thing I would do is try to piggyback on the

00:33:09.580 New York Court of Appeals reversal of the Weinstein case and talk about how he improperly admitted

00:33:16.540 Stormy Daniels, particularly the details, the positions they took during sex, the kind of

00:33:22.700 aftershave he used, the pajamas that he wore and the lack of birth control. Yeah, even more. Right. Even

00:33:31.180 more. If he took the witness stand, that would be number one. Number two, I think would be the failure

00:33:37.620 to give an instruction on the missing witness. The way the judge and the prosecution handled Alan

00:33:45.860 Wieselberg really denied the defendant the right to a presumption that the only reason he wasn't called

00:33:53.620 was because he would not have corroborated the very important testimony, lying testimony, of Michael Cohen.

00:34:02.180 So those would be the two things. I would also focus on change of venue and the fact that the

00:34:08.980 crime was manufactured. There are so many issues that are good, even a minor technical issue. The

00:34:16.020 judge closed the courtroom to the public. I was there. I was a witness. He didn't throw me out,

00:34:21.140 but he threw out the media. And, you know, the Sixth Amendment doesn't say partially public trial.

00:34:26.820 It says a completely public trial. So I would emphasize that as well, although it would be hard to show

00:34:31.380 prejudice from that. But there are there are some. This is a winnable appeal. This is an appeal that

00:34:36.260 a first year law student could win if the defendant's name wasn't Donald Trump and it wasn't New York.

00:34:40.740 You know, Megan. I completely agree with that. Go ahead. Yeah, go ahead, Mark.

00:34:43.940 Let me jump in for one second, because I don't know if Alan will remember, but Alan and I and Harvey

00:34:51.140 actually got on a call. And I won't talk about the substance of the call, but it was the Saturday.

00:34:56.100 No. The Saturday before he got remanded. And I will tell you that when you compliment Alan as being,

00:35:05.220 he's far and away the the appellate lawyer for the ages, but he correctly predicted what would

00:35:12.980 eventually happen in that case. Wow.

00:35:15.620 Before Harvey went into custody, he went into custody in 36 hours later, but he correctly predicted.

00:35:22.100 Alan's point about the Weinstein reversal, I would go one step farther, because that opinion also said

00:35:31.540 that and excoriated the then trial judge, who's no longer on the bench in New York. He excoriated him

00:35:39.620 for telling Harvey that if you take the stand, this Molyneux evidence is going to come in, meaning the

00:35:46.660 other acts evidence basically freezing the defendant from taking the stand. This judge in this case did

00:35:55.140 the exact same thing. It's almost like he read the opinion and said, I'm going to commit the exact

00:36:00.420 same error in this case with Donald Trump that just got reversed in Harvey Weinstein.

00:36:05.380 And the reason he did it is because he knows the defendant in this case name is Donald Trump and

00:36:12.260 courts don't reverse convictions of Donald Trump. There's a special law for Donald Trump, which is why

00:36:18.740 I named my book Get Trump wasn't my title. That's the title that was devised by Bragg. He ran on that

00:36:26.340 principle. They know prosecutors and judges know the law doesn't apply to Donald Trump because the goal is

00:36:32.980 to make sure he doesn't become the next president of the United States.

00:36:37.300 So what here's a little bit of Alvin Bragg, by the way, because now we're all looking forward.

00:36:41.700 Not not like happily looking. We're looking to the date of July 11th where sentencing will happen.

00:36:48.180 And prior to then, both parties are going to submit a recommendation on what they think

00:36:52.340 Donald Trump should get. Obviously, the defense is going to want no jail time. And I don't know whether

00:36:56.260 they're going to want any any punishment at all. They'll probably say what he's been through

00:36:59.780 already is punishment enough. And the D.A., will he recommend jail time? Will this D.A. who ran on

00:37:07.220 a promise to get Trump, will he say this man should be put in jail? He was asked about whether

00:37:14.180 he would object to a stay of enforcement if Trump gets a jail sentence at a press conference he held,

00:37:23.540 I think, last night. So in other words, they were he was he was asked, OK, if he gets a jail sentence,

00:37:28.020 would you object to staying the jail sentence, you know, while he appeals this and runs for president?

00:37:32.980 And here's as much as Bragg would say in Sat 13. If a jail sentence is in the cards, it is likely

00:37:40.420 that Trump and his attorneys would seek a stay on enforcement of that sentence pending appeal.

00:37:46.500 If that were the scenario, would your office object to staying saying the sentence?

00:37:54.180 I'm going to let our words in court speak for themselves when we get to the sentencing matter.

00:38:00.180 I'm not going to address hypotheticals. They raise arguments. We'll respond. And I think your question

00:38:06.260 really underscores an important point. This is an act of ongoing matter, right? We have other phases of this

00:38:10.980 going ahead. We will continue to do our speaking about this matter about issues like that.

00:38:16.740 That's what he said. He asked if he would seek jail time to go ahead, Alan.

00:38:20.420 Let me tell you what I think he's going to ask for. He's going to ask for a jail sentence,

00:38:24.260 a prison sentence of two years, but suspended. The fact that he'll impose a two year sentence

00:38:31.780 will create a symbol and a message that this is somebody who deserves jail time,

00:38:37.380 but he's going to say he has no prior convictions. So we wouldn't object to a suspended sentence.

00:38:44.260 But I don't think he's. Explain what that means. Explain what that looks like.

00:38:48.340 A suspended sentence simply means that he was sentenced to prison, but the judge suspended

00:38:54.260 the sentence and said, I'm going to allow him not to be convicted, but there would be something

00:38:59.540 hanging over his head. It would be like a probation. Not to be incarcerated.

00:39:02.660 But yeah, not be incarcerated. But but it would send the message that this is a guy

00:39:08.980 who deserves to be in prison for this. I don't think he's going to just say, yeah,

00:39:13.540 just let him go loose with a fine. He's going to do something more than that. Now,

00:39:17.380 the appellate courts, even the appellate division will say the sentence that he's not a flight risk.

00:39:22.580 He's not running away anywhere. He's not a danger unless you think his election is a danger.

00:39:27.940 That's not the kind of danger that I think the statute has in mind. So it would be say he's not

00:39:32.660 going to prison pending the election that I guarantee you. You know, it's interesting,

00:39:37.940 Alan, because I hadn't thought of a suspended sentence. I had thought maybe 30, 60 or 90 and

00:39:43.700 then stay it pending the appeal. The suspended sentence is interesting because then does he if he

00:39:50.980 doesn't win the election and he gets convicted in one of the other jurisdictions, would that trigger?

00:39:57.060 I know there's arguments against it, but would that trigger the the impossession of the sentence?

00:40:02.660 And so that that's almost diabolical in the way that it's executed.

00:40:08.180 That's a good question. Well, what about all these probation restrictions that we're reading about

00:40:11.620 now? One of which we didn't get to is a convicted felon generally cannot have a security clearance

00:40:18.900 and not forget whether he wins. The tradition in this country is in the last I can't remember the

00:40:24.500 period of times last six to eight weeks prior to the election. Both parties, the sitting president,

00:40:29.780 if he's running for reelection and his challenger, both start getting security briefings and get a

00:40:34.740 security clearance just to maintain a seamless transition of power depending on who wins.

00:40:40.260 And so now is he prohibited from that? Do you guys know the answer to that?

00:40:44.500 I would suspect under I would suspect. No one's seen this before. Of course,

00:40:50.820 this is unprecedented. Sorry, go ahead. I would suspect under SIPA, he's not eligible. My

00:40:55.780 immediate reaction is, can he not vote? Is he unable to vote for him? We looked that up. We have the

00:41:01.380 answer to that. So generally in Florida, convicted felons cannot vote. But if you're a citizen of another

00:41:06.740 state living in Florida, you know, your driver's license, whatever, then they'll follow the other

00:41:12.580 state's law. And we assume that Trump is a citizen of New York state. And if that's the case, then he

00:41:18.900 can vote because New York, New York lets you vote even if you're a convicted felon, so long as you're

00:41:23.300 not incarcerated on election day. Why is he out of New York? He is now president and probably a citizen of

00:41:32.180 Florida. Right. He might have become a citizen of Florida given the tax situation right between New

00:41:36.900 York and Florida. So I don't know if he can show. I don't I'm not sure how high the threshold is to

00:41:43.540 get your foothold in New York. Maybe at this point he'd probably prefer not to vote and say he's a

00:41:49.620 Florida resident than say he's New York and have to pay the taxes. Go ahead, Ellen. If I were Donald

00:41:54.580 Trump's political adviser, I would say he should be prohibited from voting and he should make a

00:42:01.460 speech saying I'm being stopped from voting. You have to vote in my stead. I want everybody out

00:42:08.260 there to cast a vote for me because I can't vote. I would turn that into a political advantage. I mean,

00:42:14.820 his one vote doesn't matter, but he could make political hay out of it. Look, there's also an

00:42:21.380 irony, isn't there, Alan and Megan? Because part of the left movement is to let convicted felons

00:42:31.380 vote. And now he could embrace that just as he did criminal justice reform saying that.

00:42:43.540 Hold on, Alan. OK, go ahead. You're talking about Professor Lawrence Tribe. Go ahead.

00:42:48.340 I'm saying I know him for years. He could come up with a constitutional argument that says all

00:42:53.300 convicted felons should vote, but not Donald Trump. He'd find an exception in the Constitution

00:42:58.500 for Donald Trump because he always interprets the Constitution to come out in favor of his

00:43:04.260 own political views, unlike me and unlike me. So here's where we are. Here's where we are in

00:43:08.260 almost June of 2024. We have likely the Republican Party saying convicted felons ought to be able to

00:43:16.180 vote. And we have the Democrat Party saying it's wrong to charge gun crimes based on false applications for

00:43:24.900 the gun in the Hunter Biden case. Everything is on its head. I can't keep up. All right. Let me go to

00:43:32.020 our old pal Lawrence O'Donnell and his thoughts about this prosecutor, Alvin Bragg Satin.

00:43:39.300 For reasons that will never make sense in my memoirs, I decided today to spend the day at Alvin

00:43:46.900 Bragg's alma mater. When Alvin Bragg graduated from Harvard College, the school newspaper,

00:43:52.980 the Harvard Crimson, ran a profile of him. And the title of that profile in his last week of college

00:43:59.860 was the anointed one. And you finished that article, as I did a year a year ago, thinking,

00:44:07.540 yeah, that's the right title. That's that that's who this guy is. And people of Manhattan who elected

00:44:12.820 him. That's what they saw. They saw somebody who was dedicated to doing this job and doing it

00:44:19.700 flawlessly and so profoundly modestly. Thoughts on that was a profoundly modest judge and prosecutor alike.

00:44:32.260 This judge, this this prosecutor is one of the worst, most unethical and prosecutors I've ever seen.

00:44:41.460 Not only that, I remember him when he was at Harvard. He brought Professor Jeffries to speak to the

00:44:47.140 Black Law Students Association. Jeffries was a notorious anti-Semite. So even when he was at 0.82

00:44:53.620 Harvard, he didn't have the best record in the world. He was well liked. He was somebody who

00:44:59.780 thoughtfully balanced one position against the other. But his actions in bringing a criminal charge here

00:45:07.460 are akin to the actions of Stalin and Beria and will create a precedent for all American prosecutors in

00:45:13.700 the future. That if you want to get O'Donnell and other people to praise you, just prosecute your

00:45:19.220 political opponents, make up crimes, get the right jury, get the right venue, get the right judge,

00:45:24.820 and you will have your political career enhanced. This is going to send the most dangerous message

00:45:30.660 to every local prosecutor in the United States. It's going to change the nature of prosecution.

00:45:36.260 You know, I never favored the election of prosecutors. That was Andrew Jackson's contribution

00:45:41.540 to American democracy, electing judges and electing prosecutors. It's the worst thing that ever happened

00:45:47.220 to American justice. And I think that Bragg is the worst manifestation of the worst thing that happened

00:45:53.460 to American justice. Elected prosecutors using partisan politics to weaponize the criminal justice system. 0.92

00:46:01.380 We are now the shame of the world when it comes to how prosecutors decide which cases to prosecute.

00:46:08.900 This would never happen in Germany. I'm talking about current Germany. It would never happen in 0.98

00:46:14.420 England. It would never happen in most Western democratic countries. It happened in the United

00:46:19.380 States because we have- Can I ask you a question on that? Let me ask you a follow-up on that,

00:46:22.580 Alan. What should happen to Alvin Bragg? You know, I looked just this morning, just for kicks,

00:46:27.220 you know how Lawrence O'Donnell just went back to Harvard to worship at the altar of Alvin Bragg.

00:46:32.260 I pulled up grounds for disbarment. What are they? This is something the three of us never had to

00:46:38.740 worry about. Here's a few. A felony involving moral turpitude, forgery, fraud could get you disbarred.

00:46:48.100 A history of dishonesty could get you disbarred. As well as any pattern of violation of the

00:46:56.020 professional code of ethics. I look at this man who very clearly ran for office on a promise to get

00:47:01.220 one man, as you pointed out, show me the man and I'll find the crime. And who put together this,

00:47:08.180 earlier I called it a Russian nesting doll of legal complaints against him. You know, 0.98

00:47:13.540 you just had to keep opening and opening until you found a little one on the inside. Oh, it's a felony.

00:47:18.260 Who I think was dishonest from the start about his good faith belief that an actual felony had taken

00:47:24.180 place here. And I actually would like to see Alvin Bragg lose his license to practice law. I don't

00:47:30.020 think he does this profession any honor. What are your thoughts on it, Alan?

00:47:35.380 I don't think he should be disbarred. I think he should be investigated. And we should see whether

00:47:40.500 there's more to it than this. I think I don't want to weaponize the bar complaints too. There's an

00:47:46.820 organization called the 65 project, which is trying to disbar every lawyer who ever defended Donald

00:47:52.340 Trump, even filed a charge against me in Massachusetts. And, and they're going after

00:47:58.020 every possible lawyer. And I don't just don't want to see the weaponization of the disbarment.

00:48:02.900 I do. I disagree with you there, Mark. You're going to have to mediate this.

00:48:07.140 See, I was with you. I was with you, but I I'm done now. Wait, let me just, so my, I'm,

00:48:13.060 there's only one way to teach these rabid Democrats who have done this to Trump the lesson

00:48:18.180 about how terrible this is for America. And it means we're going to have to take off the gloves

00:48:23.140 and we're going to have to fight UFC style. Now it's not going to be the boxing with the proper

00:48:28.180 protection. It's going to get ugly. And that's the only way they'll learn. No, you be quiet. Let

00:48:32.740 Mark answer one. Go ahead, Mark. I was going to just build on something here

00:48:37.620 about the local prosecutors or whatever. I mentioned the other day when we were on

00:48:41.780 that, and I saw last night, Mark Levin talking and going crazy. I remember Mark Levin

00:48:48.180 as one of the people who was kind of pursuing Bill Clinton during Whitewater. And I find it

00:48:53.220 kind of ironic because we were complaining then, Alan included, about the Whitewater and this, the

00:48:59.780 independent counsel and what Ken Starr was doing. And we said, wait until the shoe is on the other

00:49:05.220 foot. You're going to see it. And instead of Richard Allen's Skype, we now have George Soros. And

00:49:10.900 instead of an independent counsel, we've got a local prosecutor. What's going to end up happening is,

00:49:16.020 in my humble opinion, you're going to have, and I'll give you an illustration of what Alan's talking

00:49:21.140 about. You're going to have some local county prosecutor who is going to sit in front of a grand 1.00

00:49:27.700 jury and ask for Joe Biden to get indicted. You're going to have a local county prosecutor who's going

00:49:32.500 to ask that Ali Mayorkas gets indicted. And you're going to start seeing county prosecutors in red

00:49:38.420 states doing the exact same thing. And we're going to have this yin and yang pendulum swing,

00:49:44.100 which by the way, the U.S. Supreme Court started talking about in their oral questioning when they

00:49:50.020 were talking about the absolute immunity as to- That's the only way through this morass.

00:49:56.180 It's going to get worse before it gets better, because it will never get better. And the

00:50:01.060 Democrats will keep doing this. Look how many times they've indicted or sued Trump, just Trump alone,

00:50:06.820 until they have skin in the game. Republicans have tried to say, oh, the system, no. That fails.

00:50:14.580 It's on now. We have to stop pretending that we had the legal system that you two and I grew up with.

00:50:21.700 It's different now. Go ahead, Alan.

00:50:24.100 Two constitutional wrongs don't make a constitutional right. I think the Republicans-

00:50:28.260 Yes, they do. Keep going. Sorry.

00:50:31.060 The Republicans did a terrible thing by trying to impeach, by impeaching Mayorkas. Mayorkas didn't

00:50:36.660 commit an impeachable offense. This was just tit for tat. Trump didn't commit an impeachable

00:50:41.460 offense. They went after him. That was wrong. And then they went after Mayorkas.

00:50:44.420 What was wrong with tit for tat?

00:50:46.100 What was wrong with tit for tat?

00:50:46.820 Marcus pro bono, if he had asked me to, in front of the Senate. And I would defend

00:50:51.780 any Democrat who Republicans tried to target in a tit for tat, yin-fi-yang approach. My approach is

00:51:00.020 no wrongs instead of two wrongs.

00:51:01.860 I couldn't agree more because if you watch this pendulum swing, it's inevitable that that is what's

00:51:11.220 going to happen. And I guarantee you, if I can bet, I will bet you that there is going to be a

00:51:18.260 county prosecutor within less than a year who's going to do the exact same thing.

00:51:23.220 Right on. He's going to get favorable coverage right here at the Megyn Kelly show. Because it's

00:51:27.300 on. The norms have been broken. We can't just sit back and let them do this to Dershowitz and let

00:51:32.580 them do it to Trump and sit there highbrow like, oh, we would never. They're just going to keep

00:51:37.220 on as long as Donald Trump or his descendants or MAGA remains. But even beyond, they tried to

00:51:43.060 convince us Mitt Romney was the devil incarnate. It's going to continue happening because now they've

00:51:49.620 succeeded. I agree, but you fight a lack of principle with a principle defense. You don't get

00:51:56.100 down into the gutter with them and allow the pendulum. You know who we need? No, I, you know,

00:52:02.020 I thought I'm going to utter words. I never thought I would utter in my life. You know, we need Steve

00:52:06.820 Bannon. That's how I feel today. Bring it on. Get somebody who knows how to fight dirty. Calling the

00:52:14.580 shots. We're losing. They're taking out our people. This is about the presidency and the future of the

00:52:20.740 country. And this jerk from Harvard, the anointed one, with the help of Judge Marchand just started 0.99

00:52:27.460 doing it. He might have done it. We don't know how independents are going to react to this convicted 1.00

00:52:31.380 felon thing. Listen to this. Listen, this is the messaging they're going to hear. Hold on. My team 0.73

00:52:35.460 cut some media reaction and the craziness on the convicted felon. Oh, okay. Well,

00:52:41.060 here's Keith Olbermann. He's always good for a laugh. Convicted felon. Donald Trump has been found

00:52:49.300 guilty and guilty and guilty and guilty guilty guilty and guilty guilty guilty and guilty and 0.94

00:52:57.940 guilty guilty ish guilty adjacent guilty ask also guilty and illty gay guilty guilty guilty guilty guilty 0.73

00:53:06.580 very guilty repeatedly guilty incredibly guilty extra guilty extra large guilty extra crispy guilty diet

00:53:14.020 guilty lemon scented guilty family size guilty tartar control guilty and lastly not not guilty

00:53:24.020 I nominate him for the first tax audit it's on that's my that's where I am emotionally and mentally

00:53:29.860 today you guys I don't know what can be done but do we just sit back and try to whack a mole all these 0.81

00:53:35.460 cases against trump because if they go forward it's not going to get any better for him from here this

00:53:40.100 was the case he should have won we are now living in an age of left-wing mccarthyism i grew up during

00:53:46.500 right-wing mccarthyism and the answer is not to become mccarthyites the answer is to fight with principle

00:53:53.300 not whack a mole but to try to persuade the american public that fighting this fight by imposing wrong

00:54:01.700 upon wrong is not the right approach most americans are are decent middle of the road people who want

00:54:08.980 to vote for leaders who will not engage either in left-wing or right-wing mccarthyism uh eisenhower did

00:54:15.860 a great thing when he stood up against mccarthy as a republican and many others did the right thing but uh

00:54:22.180 i i still have trust in principle and i can tell you this i'm going to live my life based on principle i'm

00:54:28.260 not going to submit to the uh extremes of the other side and do what they've done i simply won't do it

00:54:34.660 myself i'm too old to change i was brought up with principles i live my life with principles

00:54:40.420 and i'm gonna die a principled man i hope it's so annoying alan not anytime soon 0.84

00:54:47.940 no not anytime soon well that's i mean i know that's true i've known you for a long time i know 0.64

00:54:52.660 it's true but it's annoying because i just i'm so tired of this i'm so tired of these disgusting 0.85

00:54:57.700 tactics by these bare knuckle brawlers over on the left side you know on everything um and they 0.92

00:55:03.460 just keep succeeding at it and the right just has its righteous indignation and all of its big losses

00:55:10.820 and i'm tired of it all right so last prediction what's going to happen mark is there going to be

00:55:15.860 jail time and if there's not jail time what three days whatever could be like then what is trump likely

00:55:21.620 to get i i even though i'm very intrigued by allen's suspended sentence uh prediction i i still think

00:55:31.460 you're going to see 30 60 or 90 it's going to be stayed and i think it's a very smart idea that you

00:55:39.300 go because i've watched both the oral arguments at the intermediate stage for um weinstein and then

00:55:46.100 uh the um uh the uh court of appeals there which is the highest court in new york and i thought after

00:55:53.620 the intermediate stage i don't know alan if you watched it but i thought they were going to reverse

00:55:58.100 at that stage if you had seen what they basically eviscerated the prosecution but they ended up affirming

00:56:04.740 the conviction he had to go to the court of appeals it was divided four to three i think they need to

00:56:09.700 just kind of uh leapfrog go straight to the court of appeals and then they may get they may get some

00:56:16.580 traction if the u.s supreme court weighs in because the u.s supreme court decision if they don't remand

00:56:23.300 it for factual findings um could could sway a lot of this there's some arguments i can see where the

00:56:31.220 court of appeals may have to weigh in so i don't think he's going to jail the supreme court just as a

00:56:38.180 reminder the supreme court held last last june we've got to pull up the decision take another

00:56:41.860 look at it but they held last june that you cannot have a an amorphous generalized intention to defraud

00:56:47.780 against the general public in the criminal statutes they they don't want that and the

00:56:52.420 judge wrote that right into his jury instructions so that's contrary to what the u.s supreme court has

00:56:57.460 held that's just one of the many grounds and this supreme court is not a bunch of hard partisan hacks

00:57:04.500 like we might see on the new york state appellate division and if it gets there and i believe i

00:57:09.860 happen to believe the new york state court of appeals is still a real legitimate honest court i don't

00:57:17.220 think they're all part of the reverse harvey weinstein that took a lot of guts and it was all the women 1.00

00:57:23.860 it was all the the female justices who reversed it go ahead alan well but it was a four to three 0.75

00:57:29.540 decision four to three decisions could easily go the other way look my clear prediction is that on

00:57:35.700 november 5th donald trump will be out of prison and will be running for president without being in

00:57:41.460 prison that's my one prediction he's not going to prison pending the election after that it depends

00:57:48.180 so much on what bragg seeks and and whatever bragg seeks i think uh judge marchand will grant and so

00:57:56.660 it'll either be a suspended sentence or a symbolic weekend sentence or a probationary sentence but uh

00:58:04.340 it won't just be a fine oh that's here's what's really terrifying if if if trump loses the election

00:58:12.980 if trump loses this election there's nothing to protect him from jack smith or fanny willis jack smith

00:58:19.860 times two and then he loses the election he's going to go around complaining again that he lost the

00:58:25.860 election and this time he may have a basis for the complaint the last time i know 100 percent

00:58:31.460 and what i want to actually no but alan but the point i'm trying to make here the point i'm trying

00:58:35.940 to make here is is he going to do better with a jury in dc this trial is is a reminder of what's waiting

00:58:47.860 for him and on those two federal cases he's going to jail if he gets convicted on one of those he's going

00:58:55.140 to jail and that's what's really scary no i disagree he loses the election he's going to have to sit for

00:59:00.820 those trials and he's going to be sent to prison go ahead alan the florida case the florida case is

00:59:06.020 a smoking cigarette butt that is it's smoking because he did wave a classified paper in front

00:59:11.940 of somebody who was unauthorized just the way president biden waved the classified paper in front of his

00:59:17.540 biographer and said this is classified be careful with it but he won't get jail time for that but he might

00:59:23.700 very well the obstruction well there's also the obstruction charge down in the mar-a-lago case

00:59:30.820 yeah but i don't think you'll get convicted on that obstruction and last time i looked i don't even think

00:59:36.100 that those are calls under the sentencing guidelines so yeah but he's the january 6th case he will get

00:59:44.900 yeah i agree with that i agree with i agree he'll get jail time you're saying mark

00:59:49.380 disagreeing about something this is getting boring we're which i know i'm disagreeing with you

00:59:55.700 i'm partnering up with steve bannon for the next debate okay that's a fair fight two guys

01:00:03.940 is a fair fight abigail finin will never allow it she's still mad about our little dust up during the 1.00

01:00:11.060 trump first run guys thank you thanks for being here thank you thank you okay president biden has

01:00:19.780 just spoken to the trump conviction we will play that next when dave mike and phil join us on this

01:00:27.780 illegal smorgasbord of expertise and talent for you on this important day don't go away

01:00:33.460 i'm megan kelly host of the megan kelly show on sirius xm it's your home for open honest and

01:00:41.620 provocative conversations with the most interesting and important political legal and cultural figures

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01:01:36.660 joining me now mike davis founder and president of the article 3 project dave ehrenberg state attorney

01:01:42.500 for palm beach county florida and host of true crime mtn on youtube and phil holloway legal analyst and

01:01:48.740 host of inside the law the legal all-stars continue thank you guys so much for being here

01:01:55.460 um let me get your reactions first to this verdict last night mike davis i'll start with you

01:02:00.340 it was uh it's an outrageous verdict but predict it uh and it was part of a partisan corrupt and rigged

01:02:07.220 process this this criminal can this there was a guilty verdict this this judge will convict and

01:02:12.980 sentence that will get overturned on appeal the issue is that will not get resolved before the

01:02:17.620 election and that that's what this is all about this is election interference by joe biden and his

01:02:22.980 allies and his aides dave i know it won't surprise you megan that i'll disagree with my friend mike

01:02:31.380 this was a predictable uh verdict but i do think that it's clear that presidents do not communicate

01:02:39.940 directly with state attorneys if any white house had communicated with the state attorney it would be me

01:02:45.380 because i oversee mar-a-lago i can tell you i don't even get invited to a white house holiday party

01:02:51.460 so you know you can try to blame no no i i'm obviously not on anyone's list uh and especially

01:02:58.100 now that i go on your show i'm totally bringing you to the megan kelly show christmas party this year but

01:03:01.460 keep going it'll be the only one i get invited to megan thank you and and as far as the uh the outcome

01:03:07.620 it was um as we discussed previously it was pretty predictable because i do think that todd

01:03:13.460 blanche trump's lawyer made a couple crucial errors i think trump's best defense would have been

01:03:18.180 yes these were reimbursed on some michael cohen and so what you can count them as legal fees when

01:03:23.060 you reimburse a lawyer slash fixer so there's no intent here to commit a crime but todd blanche

01:03:29.220 undid that in his opening statements i have to say i like that phil your reaction well great to be with 0.99

01:03:35.860 you again as always you know they say garbage in garbage out the the verdict being the garbage that 0.88

01:03:41.860 came out of this trial was directly related to a number of things for example uh the judge who 0.99

01:03:48.340 has his own legal reasons why he should have recused himself uh notwithstanding any bias he

01:03:55.140 personally might have he should have recused himself due to the financial conflicts of interest with his

01:03:59.460 daughter but he also has his own personal bias he should have recused himself for those reasons uh he

01:04:04.980 donated money okay to the to the anti-trump uh pro-biden thing before the trial and then you 0.50

01:04:11.460 had all of these ridiculous rulings that uh culminated with this ridiculous jury instruction

01:04:18.420 that allowed the jury to be non-unanimous megan on one of the essential elements of the offense the

01:04:24.420 so-called other crime what was it and we still and megan we still do not know because the verdict

01:04:31.140 form did not lay it out in that way so we don't yet know what exactly this jury agreed on and what

01:04:37.380 it may have disagreed on and those three um possibilities for other charges were things that

01:04:43.140 were never even charged in the indictment so you have a garbage in you have a garbage out and that's 0.98

01:04:48.420 what this verdict is it's garbage you know speaking of that uh donation that the judge made you raised 0.98

01:04:54.100 this the other day mike um so the judge he donated 35 in violation of this rule prohibiting new york 0.96

01:05:01.940 judges from making political donations and he made it to a group he earmarked it for quote resisting

01:05:07.780 the republican party and donald trump's radical right wing legacy mike and dave we talked about this the

01:05:13.540 other day the democrats right now the chairman of the senate judiciary committee dick durbin is trying

01:05:19.300 to get samuel alito to forced to recuse himself from deciding these two cases j6 and immunity that

01:05:26.900 are up before scotus right now because his wife flew a flag a flag that was on george washington's

01:05:33.140 ships saying no that's too much that poses a an appearance of impropriety but this is fine for this

01:05:39.700 judge the judge to have donated money to the resist the republican party and donald trump's radical

01:05:45.700 right wing legacy group mike well that's a problem that was clearly an illegal campaign contribution

01:05:52.980 by a judge under new york law that got him reprimanded by the new york court system we found out

01:05:58.500 we found that we just found out he got reprimanded many months ago about this but guess what that didn't

01:06:04.580 deter this corrupt democrat juan mershon whose adult daughter lauren mershon is raising millions of

01:06:12.500 dollars off of this unprecedented criminal trial over which her father presided requiring his recusal

01:06:20.900 under new york statute he didn't recuse uh instead he he retaliated against president trump with an

01:06:27.700 illegal unconstitutional gag order how about that one dave you you didn't like the flag being flown

01:06:34.100 outside of alito's we talked about appearance of impropriety does it create an appearance of

01:06:37.860 impropriety for the sitting judge over the first trial of a new york of a former president to have

01:06:42.740 donated to the resisting the republican party and donald trump's radical right-wing legacy group

01:06:49.140 well it was 15 but yeah i i i concede that well it's 35 dollars with 35 money yeah you're my but

01:06:56.820 whatever so what he did it shows his bias well the thing is he did go to the state ethics commission to

01:07:03.860 see if he needed to step down from the case and the commission said no i only wish sam alito would

01:07:08.980 do the same thing but oh that's right the supreme court gets to make its own rules and decide chief

01:07:13.620 justice john roberts tomorrow and say what do you think and he would say you're good no no no

01:07:17.700 he would say you're good you're right about that he actually did he checked the supreme court ethical

01:07:22.260 guidelines and he he cited that in his letter to the senate where he checked with the supreme court

01:07:28.980 ethical guidelines he's actually required not to recuse under the supreme court's ethical guidelines

01:07:34.660 because there is a presumption that supreme court justices do not recuse because of the appearance of

01:07:41.140 bias because you don't want parties playing games to get justices to recuse because there are only nine

01:07:47.780 justices and you can't substitute them like you can substitute the lower court justice or judges it's

01:07:52.980 just amazing that we can have an appeal to heaven flag cause the left to want these justices off the

01:07:58.500 supreme court cases but an actual donation to a far left group that says its whole mission is to

01:08:05.940 resist donald trump and his radical right-wing legacy no problem okay go right ahead and preside

01:08:11.220 over the very first trial ever criminal trial for a former president all right speaking of presidents

01:08:16.580 our current president decided to weigh in on this from the white house ill-advised in my view just stop

01:08:22.260 stop stop stop you represent us all when you're in that house and when you are the president stop it

01:08:27.620 we remember when we used to have presidents who didn't comment on criminal cases just zip it zip

01:08:32.340 got a whole lot of for you but here's what he had to say before i begin my remarks i just want to

01:08:38.180 say a few words about what happened yesterday in new york city the american principle that no one is above

01:08:46.660 the law was reaffirmed donald trump was given every opportunity to defend himself it was a state case

01:08:54.340 not a federal case and it was heard by a jury of 12 citizens 12 americans 12 people like you

01:09:04.180 like millions of americans who served on juries this jury is chosen the same way every jury in america

01:09:10.820 is chosen it was a process that donald trump's attorney was part of the jury heard five weeks of evidence

01:09:18.820 five weeks and after careful deliberation the jury reached a unanimous verdict they found donald trump

01:09:27.060 guilty on all 34 felony counts now he'll be given the opportunity as he should to appeal that decision

01:09:36.260 just like everyone else has that opportunity that's how the american system of justice works 0.62

01:09:41.620 and it's reckless it's dangerous it's irresponsible for anyone to say this was rigged just because they

01:09:51.060 don't like the verdict our justice system has endured for nearly 250 years and it literally is the

01:09:59.140 cornerstone of america our justice system the justice system should be respected

01:10:04.580 and we should never allow anyone to tear it down yeah and that's exactly what he did phil that's exactly

01:10:13.060 what he did this president in the federal cases hit through his ag and these two state prosecutors in

01:10:21.140 your locale with fanny willis and up in mind with alvin bragg your reaction to the president yeah guess

01:10:27.700 what mr president we didn't have to wait for the verdict to know it was rigged we watched it in real

01:10:32.500 time being rigged day after day after day we watched as acting justice mershawn repeatedly would

01:10:39.940 sustain the objections of the prosecutors before the objections even got out of their mouth and

01:10:44.500 without offering the other side an opportunity to weigh in and we watched every day as justice mershawn

01:10:50.820 gave ridiculous jury instructions that did not require their unanimity on an essential element of the

01:10:56.740 offense and we watched in real time as this judge let this prosecutor take this trial all the way to 0.84

01:11:03.380 the end without even naming what the so-called other crime was they were trying to hang around

01:11:08.900 the neck of the defendant this is all in violation of due process it's all in violation of donald trump's

01:11:14.660 constitutional rights and this is not even to mention allowing in all of the irrelevant testimony 0.64

01:11:20.100 from witnesses like stormy daniels and to and to build a case on a convicted felonious liar such as

01:11:26.420 michael cohen it's reprehensible it's reprehensible of bragg it's reprehensible for this judge it's

01:11:31.380 reprehensible for joe biden to stand there and tell me that i've got to take this and i've got to respect

01:11:36.420 it i don't have to respect any jury verdict when it is built upon a card of lies yes i agree with you um

01:11:45.140 dave what do you make of the president remember do you know what i'm saying remember when we used to

01:11:49.460 not have presidents do this you know you the president of the united states did not feel the

01:11:54.340 need to weigh in on criminal cases and i would say especially when it's your opponent in the

01:12:01.140 presidential election stay out of it that you're working for us for the entire country don't speak

01:12:09.940 about this from the white house am i wrong am i missing something here well i think you may be

01:12:15.780 fighting the last war megan i think we're way past that point i mean donald trump called for his

01:12:20.100 opponents be locked up and as president he tried to pressure the attorney general to do something

01:12:25.620 about his opponents so this is not new anymore you know this has been going on for a while so i don't

01:12:31.540 take umbrage that biden talked about it you know i don't think he's going to spend a lot of the

01:12:35.460 campaign talking about it if he continues to do so from the white house then i'd have more of a

01:12:39.540 problem but i don't have a problem with him just making a reaction statement the next day

01:12:44.660 we'll see how much further he goes okay but just for the record trump has definitely said some

01:12:50.260 outrageous things however i was there and i covered barack obama who was the first

01:12:55.380 that i know i mean i definitely my tenure as a journalist began when w bush was president he never

01:13:02.740 did this it was barack obama on the trayvon martin case who for the first time felt the need to weigh

01:13:07.380 in on a private matter and now we're at the point where we have joe biden as he's running for president

01:13:11.460 about to be elected calling kyle rittenhouse a white supremacist for which there was no evidence

01:13:16.580 and none of that panned out no apology from him to kyle and now it on and on it goes it's not appropriate

01:13:22.340 i want them to stop doing this um now the campaign they're not even trying to seem highbrow about

01:13:28.660 convicted felon donald trump but here's how they sounded uh mitch landrew uh he was the but he is

01:13:35.220 the biden campaign co-chair this morning on morning joe take a listen sat six it's a very sober moment

01:13:41.460 for the country and a very sad moment for the country for all of the people in america to have

01:13:46.500 a president or an ex-president uh become a convicted felon that's nothing for anybody to have a lot of joy

01:13:52.100 about and as a consequence lord uh of that trial uh donald trump is now a convicted felon you can

01:13:58.180 have a guy that's a convicted felon that has been found liable of defamation sexual abuse and business

01:14:03.380 fraud uh and now uh a convicted felon who thinks about himself and of course every word that comes

01:14:09.700 out of his mouth thinks about uh revenge uh against people who dare cross him or you can have joe biden

01:14:15.140 who wakes up every day thinking about the american people mike it's a very sad and sober moment for

01:14:23.300 convicted felon donald trump who's a convicted felon in case you weren't aware he was convicted of a

01:14:27.940 felony well i hope these by these biden democrats including president biden keep doing this and they

01:14:34.500 keep celebrating their pyrrhic victory here because i don't think they understand how much they have

01:14:39.860 outraged the american people they have poked the bear i am getting inundated with phone calls text

01:14:46.820 messages dms uh emails donations to article three project when we're not even soliciting donations

01:14:54.580 on this matter it is overwhelming what i'm hearing from people and these these aren't my fellow trump

01:14:59.620 supporters these are people who are tired of trump trump they're sick of trump they even don't like

01:15:05.060 trump right but they are all in now because they see what happens with this trial in new york that it

01:15:10.660 is a corrupt partisan rigged process and they they don't find it except that this is acceptable in

01:15:16.740 america dave that's the thing to me this feels almost like a brett kavanaugh moment where it that moment

01:15:25.300 made a lot of people republicans and it brought back into the fold a lot of republicans who didn't like

01:15:31.220 trump but what they did to kavanaugh was it activated many people and this moment seems like it's doing

01:15:39.700 the same thing like i am like mike i am getting the same amount of incoming to me people people are

01:15:44.260 stopping me on the street uh wanting me to know how they feel and saying they're that nothing can stop

01:15:49.540 them from voting for donald trump now and then they all start with like i'm actually don't i don't

01:15:53.140 really even love the guy do you think that that's something that the democrats have factored in right

01:16:00.100 do you think they thought it would be this would contain any backlash i don't know how much they

01:16:06.740 thought about that i i can tell you this megan i run into different circles and i'm experiencing the

01:16:13.060 same on my side where there's a new energy that didn't exist before democrats were sleepwalking

01:16:18.820 through this campaign they were not enthused about joe biden they were uh bedwetting as we like to do

01:16:24.820 thinking we're gonna lose and then all of a sudden there's a spring in their step they're fired up and

01:16:29.060 i wonder if this is the type of thing to light a fire under the base to bring the base home

01:16:32.900 to joe biden we'll see but in the end this is going to be decided this election by that small

01:16:36.660 number of swing voters in those few swing states and how they will react to this is still up in the

01:16:42.420 air phil this is what trump posted last night uh on his truth social it was before he'd really

01:16:51.380 spoken in earnest to it but this was sort of his messaging and i think his mood right after this

01:16:56.980 happened sat five this is the final battle with you at my side we will demolish the deep state we

01:17:03.860 will expel the warmongers from our government we will drive out the globalists we will cast out the 1.00

01:17:09.700 communists marxists and fascists we will throw off the sick political class that hates our country we 0.99

01:17:16.500 will rout the fake news media and we will liberate america from these villains once and for all 0.96

01:17:27.700 it reads join president trump's fight for america and he reported himself this morning phil that

01:17:32.660 just in the overnight he'd received over 40 million dollars or almost 40 million dollars i'm sure it's

01:17:38.340 over 40 now in donations he said almost all of them small small money donations so the amount of

01:17:45.140 people who would have had to have donated the website crashed there is real enthusiasm right now and it's

01:17:51.940 not just from core maga no i think it's because americans eat whether they like him even if they don't

01:17:58.500 like him megan they have lived vicariously now through him because they have seen that this trial was

01:18:05.380 unfair from the very beginning they've seen how it was weaponized and the criminal justice system

01:18:10.900 basically pointed like a double barrel shotgun aimed directly at one specific citizen so they've

01:18:16.900 experienced that when i have handled in my own career cases involving people who were innocent

01:18:22.260 outright innocent yet they were charged very very serious things you know they oftentimes would say to

01:18:27.700 me i had no idea that the system could be used like this and now a lot of america is feeling

01:18:35.140 that same feeling because they're living this through donald trump they see what's going on

01:18:39.780 they recognize that it's partisan they recognize that it's not fair and so they've turned a lot of

01:18:44.820 people who might not otherwise be on the maga train so to speak they've brought them over to where

01:18:50.100 they can be you know what i'm gonna have to support this guy because what has happened to him

01:18:54.260 is wrong so absolutely it's motivating people who did not necessarily like trump or maybe not even

01:18:59.940 considered voting for him before now but now they will mike i feel strongly and just had a fierce

01:19:06.580 debate with alan dershowitz and mark garagos about this that it's time to fight it's let's fight the

01:19:11.620 way they fight let's take off the gloves let's go ufc hardcore let's start indicting their people i'm

01:19:18.100 sorry but if this is how we're going to do it then we're going to have to do it like this until we can

01:19:22.900 restore sanity to the legal process and i'll give you a suggestion just out of nowhere about who we

01:19:28.900 could start with can we please run sought seven thank you thank you so much anything going on today

01:19:40.100 yeah that's hillary clinton last night in new york what do you think i 100 agree with you megan and

01:19:55.300 that's the exact approach i ran with the kavanaugh confirmation when i was the chief counsel for

01:20:01.300 nominations i i ran what i called the dead chicken strategy and uh when i did my clerkship on the supreme

01:20:07.460 court briefly to help gorsuch get set up all the all the clerks meet with all the justices for lunch

01:20:13.300 you have like speed dating with the eight other justices in our lunch with justice clarence thomas

01:20:18.260 was my best and most memorable memorable because he talked about growing it growing up on the farm in

01:20:23.780 georgia when dogs killed chickens you wrapped those dead chickens around those dogs necks and as those

01:20:30.820 chickens rotted around those dogs necks those dogs lost the taste for chicken and republicans

01:20:37.220 need to do the same thing with these biden democrats on this law fair and they need to

01:20:41.540 give these biden democrats a healthy dose of their own medicine with their own indictments and their

01:20:47.300 own investigations uh and uh i i think after maybe four years of the trump 47 justice department

01:20:55.140 doing that working with republican prosecutors and republican juries and deep red uh republican areas

01:21:02.420 republican judges corrupt republican judges hopefully that donated to president trump like the democrats

01:21:08.100 are doing to uh like like the democrats are doing to trump now once democrats get a healthy dose of

01:21:13.700 their own medicine with the dead chicken strategy i bet you they'll think long and hard before they do this

01:21:19.140 again i feel like you should put clarence thomas in touch with christy noem for the sake of her

01:21:26.180 future chicken eating dogs i think we could save a lot of by the way it's literally every other day

01:21:32.020 that i say to stradwick you behave or you're going to the christy noem ranch that's your next move off you 1.00

01:21:36.900 go okay but i wouldn't i'm only joking i joke because i love phil where do you stand on it because i

01:21:43.220 understand dershowitz was saying i'm a man of principle and i'll die a man of principle and i'm never

01:21:47.860 going to play the left's games that's mccarthyism we don't beat it by becoming them i just feel like 0.82

01:21:53.060 that that's a yesteryear mentality it's on but i mean we've we've crossed a barrier that's on

01:21:59.780 you cannot do it we're in a new the rubicon has been changed and so we have to change the way we

01:22:05.700 fight or we're going to keep losing and by we i mean sane people who miss the real america

01:22:12.820 well listen let's put it this way megan i understand the point you're making uh you and

01:22:16.900 i probably are going to see this one a little bit differently and that's okay we can still be friends

01:22:20.500 but i don't believe in the organization of the justice system for political purposes not in any

01:22:26.180 circumstances it was wrong when it happens to donald trump this would have been wrong if it

01:22:30.420 were directed at joe biden or if it were barack obama or even bill clinton and it would be wrong

01:22:35.700 for people to go and find things that they can charge their political opponents with just as a

01:22:42.020 way to get even i can't support that how else do we get them to stop phil how else do we we don't want

01:22:47.060 that either mike doesn't want that and i don't want that but the only way to make it stop is to do

01:22:53.060 it temporarily to make them feel the pain so that we can get back to normal and what you do is you

01:22:59.060 find the people that are the perpetrators of this the uh juan mershawns the alvin braggs and you find

01:23:04.980 the ways that they have violated not only their professional ethics maybe they violated some criminal

01:23:09.380 laws and you use those things that they have done and you punish them for it through this through

01:23:15.140 the mechanisms that exist you've got bars i think it's an all it's an all-in that's an all-in i said

01:23:20.100 i think i said this on exit last night i think alvin bragg should be disbarred he should be disbarred

01:23:24.420 any man who would do this to our justice system for political purposes to a former president and the

01:23:28.340 likely nominee for the republican party has no business being in charge of people's futures and

01:23:34.180 liberty mike what do you make of it i i think you should be more than disbarred i think he should be

01:23:39.620 behind bars and there is a federal criminal civil rights statute it's called 18 well it's 18 usc 241

01:23:48.820 and 18 usc 242 these deal with conspiracy by government officials to violate someone's

01:23:56.740 constitutional rights and we've seen that over and over again with soros funded manhattan d.a alvin bragg

01:24:04.020 former obama obama and biden senior political appointee matthew colangelo and this democrat

01:24:11.460 corrupt judge juan marchand remember this judge just happens to be randomly picked for all of these

01:24:18.260 trump related cases he got picked for the trump organization criminal trial he got picked for

01:24:23.220 trump's trial now he got picked for steve bannon's trial he's an acting justice on the supreme court he's

01:24:28.420 like the forrest gump of this lawfare against trump in new york he just happens to show up at the key

01:24:33.620 times it's not random that's like a one in fifteen thousand percent one in fifteen thousand chance

01:24:38.740 that juan marchand ends up on all three of these trump related cases he's obviously being selected

01:24:43.780 his daughter is raising millions of dollars off of this she's getting very rich off of this he is

01:24:49.060 corrupt he's violating trump's civil rights with his illegal gag orders with this jury instruction that

01:24:55.460 he knows violates ramos versus louisiana a supreme court decision from 2020 this rigged process this

01:25:02.420 partisan process he should be behind be behind bars alvin bragg should be behind bars everyone

01:25:07.540 who was involved with violating trump's civil rights under 18 usc 241 and 242 should be behind bars

01:25:15.300 and they better watch it that phil's clapping they better watch it because trump really could win

01:25:20.980 this election i mean look this is kind of a bs poll to be honest i i have no idea i've never heard of

01:25:25.300 the daily mail uh poll it's not the daily mails but it's jl partners and they pulled 403 small sample

01:25:32.980 size likely voters we do check these polls to make sure if they're legit this has barely been rated by

01:25:37.940 538 it's got 1.6 stars out of three and only two polls analyzed okay so for what it's worth but that

01:25:43.300 thing that sort of snap poll showed that there was a slight bump for trump in the voting public in his

01:25:51.220 favor after this conviction now that's again take it for what it's worth but we are going to have to

01:25:55.380 watch these polls in the days and weeks to come to see whether this is a kavanaugh moment where the

01:25:59.620 republican party is galvanized and even leaners you know the so-called independents who are leaners

01:26:04.580 toward republican or toward trump whether they come on board or whether it's the opposite effect you know

01:26:09.860 it's the democrats who are enthused as dave just said and leaners start leaning all the way away and back

01:26:15.780 to biden because they don't they don't like the words convicted felon and they actually take this

01:26:21.380 seriously we just don't know what the truth is i will say this and i'll give it to you dave judge

01:26:26.420 mershon is taking it on the chin by the right but the left including this man could not be more

01:26:35.540 laudatory let's place at 17.

01:26:38.260 judge juan mershon who is an absolute gentleman to see him on that stand is to see poetry it's to see

01:26:49.700 a masterful judge who was quick with decision making he was absolutely judicial perfection and

01:27:01.780 the jury had tremendous respect for him as did i which is what kept me off of all my social media

01:27:08.020 that and dania of course the jury respects judge mershon and i believe a lot of the antics that went

01:27:15.300 on in the courtroom whether it was by blanche or by donald himself with the eye closing you know the um

01:27:22.820 leaning back the total disregard for the jury i don't think he engendered any positive feelings by anyone

01:27:31.220 that of course was to steal a term convicted felon michael cohen on msnbc last night what are your

01:27:36.980 thoughts dave on this judge well just to go back what we're talking about earlier about his donations

01:27:43.300 you know it's this new york state commission on judicial conduct they said in an advisory

01:27:48.340 opinion last may that these modest political contributions made more than two years ago

01:27:53.620 cannot reasonably create an impression of bias or favoritism in the case before the judge

01:27:58.420 so he did check with the commission they gave him a clean bill of health to go forward with it now

01:28:03.620 as far as what happened at the trial he made rulings on both sides and donald trump decided

01:28:08.980 he was not going to testify he had every ability to costello was the one key witness and that was a

01:28:14.180 mistake to put him on and he got in a fight with the judge that was not a good look so there are a lot

01:28:18.420 of missed opportunities for the defense it wasn't just like you have one judge and they railroaded

01:28:22.660 donald trump they had a lot of evidence the the jury took nine hours they asked a lot of questions and

01:28:27.860 in the end they made the decision based on the facts and the evidence one of the jurors

01:28:32.500 got their information entirely from true social and x so it wasn't like all bunch of antifa members

01:28:37.940 on the jury well that was not true we looked that up we looked that up because i thought oh my god is

01:28:43.780 there a secret secret trumper on the jury that would be big but no actually what he said was that

01:28:48.820 he gets his news from everywhere including twitter and on twitter he sees everything including some of

01:28:55.860 trump's truth social posts so that is as you know not the same as being on true social and actually

01:29:02.420 getting your news from true social um i want to spend one more minute on michael cohen who's

01:29:07.540 probably the most gleeful man in america today here's what he tried to tell rachel maddow in sat 21

01:29:12.900 about himself the strategic necessity of you staying cool and having that same affect and everything how

01:29:20.340 hard was it not hard at all it's the media that wants to portray me as this sort of uh bombastic

01:29:27.460 character it's really not we've all heard bombast from you but you've heard it from my maya culpa

01:29:32.980 podcast or political beatdown podcast it's a um it's a persona for it um i can't go with intelligence

01:29:41.860 so i have to go with bombastic right that's a persona i mean literally every reporter in news

01:29:49.220 left center and right has a terrible story about michael cohen berating them swearing at them

01:29:56.180 threatening them and since he raises the maya culpa podcast which now he says is all acting it's just a

01:30:02.340 persona here's a bit from it in sat 22. so i want to thank the manhattan district attorney's office

01:30:08.820 and their fearless leader alvin bragg he is about to get a taste of what i went through and i promise

01:30:15.540 you it's not fun picturing donald trump being led through the booking process getting fingerprinted

01:30:22.500 having his mug shot taken fills me with delight and sadness all at the same time sadness i say because

01:30:30.420 what an embarrassment it is to the office of the presidency to have a former president of the united

01:30:36.500 states handcuffed and mug shot it before the entire world

01:30:43.060 that is that is the only man who was able to say that donald trump explicitly agreed to this

01:30:49.540 so-called scheme the scheme which is totally legal by the way but that's the only man mike and the

01:30:53.780 jury seemed to say yeah you know what we like him we believe him well does that surprise you megan

01:31:01.380 when you have a jury pool that voted 87 percent for joe biden and then this corrupt judge and

01:31:09.140 partisan prosecutor alvin bragg and biden operative matthew colangelo further rigged the jury selection

01:31:16.180 process where they bounced the three people in manhattan who followed trump on truth but they didn't

01:31:21.860 bounce people who followed biden on social media remember with michael cohen he is a disbarred

01:31:27.700 attorney he's a serial perjurer he's a convicted felon he admitted to the during this trial he 0.90

01:31:34.180 embezzled sixty thousand dollars from president trump and this goofball was raising money on tick 0.98

01:31:41.540 tock during the trial trashing trump so i don't think that rachel maddow giving him kisses the first 1.00

01:31:47.380 guy she's kissed in her entire life should be doing this after this guy's raising money on tick 0.85

01:31:52.420 tick tock trashing trump i really like here's my question for you dave when is michael cohen getting

01:31:58.260 getting arrested again he admitted to grand larceny on the stand and by the way i didn't realize this

01:32:05.460 but so he stole that 60 grand right that 30 000 whatever he was reimbursed around this red finch

01:32:10.260 payment but he he stole 420 000 divided by two 210 000 we're all lawyers so i know you guys are doing

01:32:19.140 the math with me he stole 210 000 because trump reimbursed him double these payments that he

01:32:26.020 thought michael cohen had made and so that he could pay taxes on them and be made whole but what i heard

01:32:33.620 in the closings was he did not file his tax returns he did not have taxes taken out of the 420 i believe

01:32:43.700 based on what i heard he's got 420 000 sitting in a pot right now so anyway my point is when is he

01:32:50.580 getting arrested dave he admitted to a massive felony under oath on the stand yeah you're referring to the

01:32:58.180 red finch where he did some work to help trump in a poll and then he pocketed the money and that

01:33:06.580 was a confession to a crime but there has to be a statute of limitations here and i think that's what

01:33:10.660 bars the prosecution of him was it done by all unlawful means that include violating the federal

01:33:16.100 election act or tax law because i had no way around that time bar problem you know i'm glad you brought

01:33:22.580 that up because my friends phil and mike have been bringing up that uh jury instruction just to make

01:33:28.420 it clear they did have to find beyond a reasonable doubt unanimously that they uh the defendant violated

01:33:34.340 falsification of business records and it led to a second crime and they made clear the state did that

01:33:39.060 it was that new york conspiracy to influence an election crime that ought to be unanimous the part

01:33:43.860 that was not unanimous were the two words we discussed this last time unlawful means what were

01:33:48.500 the unlawful means and the judge allowed the jury to have different unlawful means and how about this

01:33:52.900 i agree with with you i think that that is grist for an appeal because when you allow the jury to say

01:33:59.780 all right we're going to lean on federal campaign finance laws i don't know if you can do that in a

01:34:05.060 state prosecution or lean on tax laws is it a tax violation when the state is made whole although what

01:34:13.860 you're telling me now is that if michael cohen never paid the taxes uh maybe there is a tax violation

01:34:18.340 but it wouldn't be trump's tax violation because he did pay him for the taxes oh yeah i mean that's

01:34:24.020 the problem go ahead phil the look the grand jury never charged donald trump with anything related to

01:34:31.060 those three statutes that the judge finally determined were the ones that they could choose from

01:34:35.700 they have to find probable cause to believe that he committed a crime and that means each and every

01:34:40.340 element of the crime it's not how the prosecutor or how or how the judge interprets the uh the

01:34:46.660 indictment oh i'm sure the grand jury must have meant this crime that crime or the other crime no

01:34:51.380 that's not how it's supposed to work you're supposed to have a grand jury indictment they're supposed to

01:34:55.380 say specifically what you as the defendant did wrong so that they can specifically put you on notice

01:35:01.460 what you specifically need to defend at trial it's called due process it's called the fifth amendment

01:35:07.060 it's called the sixth amendment right to fair trial and it it's wrong for a a judge to allow a case to go to a

01:35:14.660 jury under these circumstances and it's so far outside the norm that those of us in the legal

01:35:21.060 field most of us we're just sort of scratching our heads wondering are we just living in the twilight

01:35:25.220 zone here when you have a judge that's going to allow something like this to go forward uh you know

01:35:30.500 it's just reprehensible you can't just have a grand jury uh do an indictment and leave it so vague that

01:35:36.580 the the judge and the prosecutor just sort of get to fill in the blanks later when it comes to time to

01:35:40.900 charge the jury that's not how it works you literally can't mean dave you've you've been on

01:35:45.220 this show before we've had andy mccarthy on here he found this new york state constitutional provision

01:35:49.860 that prohibits incorporating by reference the rest of the penal code you're not allowed to do that and

01:35:56.500 why because it doesn't give the defendant due process it doesn't give him notice of what he could

01:36:01.140 be charged with when he's deciding how to behave as a citizen of new york state he doesn't know that

01:36:06.500 that you could actually wind up a felon if you violate federal election law or try to that's

01:36:13.700 what they were saying here he attempted to violate federal election law and therefore if you do the

01:36:18.900 books wrong you could be elevating a misdemeanor to a felony because that could be brought in by a

01:36:24.660 state prosecutor against you even though the feds have exclusive jurisdiction on federal election claims

01:36:29.460 that what appellate court is going to say yeah you're good that that's fair to the defendant

01:36:36.780 no i think there's a real chance this could be overturned on appeal for the reasons you say but

01:36:41.640 make it clear they did make it uh obvious in the indictment that this was about falsification of

01:36:47.620 business records they mentioned other potential crimes but i will grant phil's point that i think

01:36:52.440 they should have for the sake of transparency specifically mentioned what the second crime was what we found

01:36:57.820 out later was that it was that state law that obscure state law that said you cannot conspire

01:37:02.780 using unlawful means to influence an election and that was the second statute under new york law it's

01:37:07.920 my understanding you don't have to set that out in the indictment you can just reveal later on which

01:37:12.640 they did but the part that i think it is able to be appealed that i think they have a good appeal on

01:37:18.260 is the two words unlawful means what were the unlawful means and the judge did give three options for

01:37:24.380 the jury and i'm not sure that's going to fly with the high court in new york no because mike how could

01:37:31.160 the jury in any world understand federal election law when almost no one understands it antonin

01:37:41.040 scalia is on record as saying i have no idea it's too confusing the and the feds the federal election

01:37:46.980 commission has exclusive jurisdiction to enforce those claims for this very reason and yet they didn't hear

01:37:52.860 from an expert they heard michael cohen backdoor the fact that he settled a that he was found guilty

01:37:57.880 pleaded guilty to such a claim david pecker non-prosecution agreement on such a claim and

01:38:02.980 no one explained federal election law to them except for the judge in a one-liner which was wrong which

01:38:08.660 misstated the law on campaign finance yeah and the federal election commission along with the

01:38:15.240 manhattan u.s attorney and the the prior manhattan da cy vance and even brag himself declined to bring

01:38:20.780 these charges before colangelo went to brag's office from the biden justice department and i would say

01:38:25.780 this i think dave my good friend dave makes our point for us that even a democrat elected district

01:38:32.960 attorney is saying that this case has a very strong chance of getting reversed on appeal because of that

01:38:40.860 due process problem where they didn't allege the second crime well i would say if a democrat elected

01:38:47.820 district attorney thinks that why the hell would anyone bring this novel charge against a former

01:38:54.300 president who happens to be the leading presidential candidate unless it is a rock solid case if if

01:39:01.400 president trump had a dead person bleeding in his trunk i can understand why you would bring criminal

01:39:07.220 charges in that case you don't bring criminal charges on novel untested legal theories like

01:39:12.640 they've done here with alvin bragg and matthew colangelo and this corrupt judge juan mershawn whose

01:39:18.060 daughter's making a lot of money off of this case that's the thing i just can't get by yeah go ahead dave

01:39:24.060 sure just to set the record straight with my friend mike uh i don't necessarily think it's a strong

01:39:30.120 chance on appeal i think it's a decent chance on appeal i i would change the adjective there but also i i still

01:39:36.240 don't have an issue with the fact that they did not specify the second crime in the indictment i don't

01:39:41.300 think they need to my issue is that by unlawful means they allow the jury to adopt finance campaign

01:39:47.960 finance laws at the federal level a tax violation which may not even exist i think that's the best

01:39:53.360 chance on appeal i wouldn't say it's strong but i think it's pretty decent i i do i just do not

01:40:00.720 believe this is true um i think the instruction on federal election law was very clearly wrong

01:40:07.060 and once again they got into the subjective thought that was in the defendant's head there

01:40:12.860 was evidence allowed on that over and over you know what was the reason for these payments was it

01:40:17.080 you know more to help uh him win the election or was it more to keep this a secret from stormy

01:40:21.340 and that was ultimately reflected in its own way in the jury instructions and i go back to brad smith

01:40:26.060 find me a smarter election law lawyer than brad smith and i will listen i i await that person

01:40:30.940 and him saying brad's got the election law totally wrong former chairman of the fec who's been out

01:40:36.040 there appointed by bill clinton saying the following and i you know we've played his sound bite but i'll

01:40:39.580 give you more brad smith because he's a very interesting guy no one's freaking rebutting him i mean

01:40:43.400 like great show me how wrong he is i i google it all the time as this audience knows here's what he

01:40:49.740 said in a piece that was posted in the um i think it was posted in the washington examiner that's

01:40:53.440 where i read it and it's entitled brad smith what i would have told the trump jury you know he was

01:40:58.700 banned from speaking ultimately the judge said okay you can put him on he can only define a couple of

01:41:03.900 terms and team trump said what's the point of that okay so no but he wanted to tell the jury and he says

01:41:09.560 as follows we would have liked to flag um okay whatever he's picking up another thought we would

01:41:16.260 have talked about what this phrase means for the purpose of influencing an election and explain to

01:41:25.040 the jury this is not a subjective test like what was my intention it is an objective test so hiring

01:41:34.400 campaign staff is for the purpose of influencing an election renting space for your campaign office

01:41:39.300 buying ads maybe doing polling printing up bumper stickers travel to campaign rallies renting venues for

01:41:45.680 campaign rallies all of these things exist only because you are running for office but under the personal

01:41:51.660 use rules of campaign finance laws a lot of things candidates do running for office are not considered

01:41:58.920 campaign expenditures which is what the government was arguing these hush money payments to stormy and

01:42:06.180 care mcdougall were campaign expenditures that needed to comply with the limitations under law he says so a lot of

01:42:13.760 these things that candidates do running for office are not considered campaign expenditures things like

01:42:18.360 paying for a weight loss program or a gym membership nicer clothes teeth whitening all that sort of thing

01:42:24.600 it may be true that you do those things in part to help yourself get elected you might not do them

01:42:31.720 otherwise but they are not obligations that exist simply because you are running for office lots of people

01:42:39.660 people do these things this notion of personal use and i would have talked about this and the idea that

01:42:46.700 what a campaign expense is is an objective test not a subjective one phil it's just to me so it's a tragedy

01:42:55.600 that the jury didn't know any of this and this is why i don't really hold this jury responsible for this

01:43:02.260 i hold judge mershon and alvin bragg responsible for this yeah oh sorry go ahead go ahead phil

01:43:10.580 no i i look mershon and bragg are the two people that are responsible for this and to our point of our

01:43:16.720 discussion earlier when i said we shouldn't necessarily retaliate by having uh now republicans

01:43:22.700 go after uh democrat politicians and and indict them for political reasons but what we can do is we can police the

01:43:30.400 people who are responsible for things like this we can find out how it is that that uh justice

01:43:36.520 mershon has all of the cases that are related to trump some kind of funny business is going on there

01:43:42.060 that can be investigated that can be rooted out and if people need to be punished then things can

01:43:47.440 things can happen to punish them you've got ethics uh violations by prosecutors you've got ethics

01:43:52.880 violations by judges those things can be aggressively gone after and absolutely if the people that are

01:43:59.460 responsible for creating these situations in the first place they are the ones who need to pay the

01:44:05.320 price and if they violated some kind of federal law in doing it then so be it they can they can have a

01:44:10.780 federal indictment to stand for what they've done but uh but i don't think we can go around and

01:44:15.640 retaliate necessarily for political purposes uh but when it comes to how you have a trial that is is run

01:44:22.460 the way mershon ran this trial it absolutely rose to the point early on that it was so unfair that the

01:44:30.100 entirety of the way he ran his court i think was a violation of procedural due process and i certainly hope

01:44:36.520 that the courts of appeal that look at this will see it for what it is unfortunately that may take several

01:44:43.000 years can i just say megan i think neither mike nor i are suggesting that we just invent crimes but i

01:44:51.900 think you know stalin like show me the person and i'll show you the crime i bet all four of us have

01:44:56.560 committed some sort of a violation you know i was joking the other day that what's this has been

01:45:01.240 reduced to for trump is he pulled the tag off the mattress i mean i've done it i'm not gonna lie i've

01:45:06.920 pulled that tag right off it's annoying and so you could come after me yeah you know if you really

01:45:11.500 wanted to i'm saying if this is if this is where we are where we're just going to pick the most

01:45:16.860 threatening person from the other side's party and try to find some crime to wrap around them

01:45:21.100 then this is the gutter we're going to have to live in temporarily in order to save the country go ahead

01:45:25.440 dave yeah megan the expert that you cited as you remember i was on with him and to counter him i said

01:45:33.140 well what about the john edwards prosecution and his response was well yes that is the exception and i

01:45:39.020 think the judge got it wrong in allowing that to go forward so even if he was allowed to testify

01:45:44.460 there's it's not foolproof you know there's at least one court that found the opposite and allowed

01:45:49.940 the john edwards prosecution to go forward so that's why i i think that look bottom line is if

01:45:55.280 donald trump didn't want this to happen he should have either adopted a different defense or should

01:46:00.620 never have paid off the uh the his lawyer to pay off the adult film star that's crazy talk

01:46:06.580 you were right on the first point about he should have tried the case differently but it's not true

01:46:11.980 and it's so unfair to say so dave under this theory i had a big debate with dan abrams about this last

01:46:16.520 night on news nation so under this theory if you're running for president and some loser comes out of

01:46:21.640 the woodwork and says i'm gonna tell everybody i had an affair all right let's say it's not true 0.51

01:46:25.080 let's say it's just some money grab i'm gonna tell everyone we had an affair you cheated on your 1.00

01:46:28.960 family your wife whatever and you so you cannot pay her off in advance of an election because you're

01:46:36.060 now required to air all of your dirty laundry in front of the public or you've committed a crime

01:46:41.020 well you can't have someone else pay her off that would be an unlawful contribution to your campaign

01:46:47.240 you could perhaps do it yourself but you can't have someone else do it and that's the problem here why

01:46:52.480 not there's a campaign violation why not no it's not because hush money payments objectively under the

01:46:58.640 objective standard not the subjective one that is wrongly used here are paid all the time raise your

01:47:03.560 hand if you've ever signed an nda we've all signed ndas we've all i mean everybody everybody signed

01:47:09.620 one everybody's had one signed everybody's gotten sued if you have two minutes in the professional

01:47:14.180 sphere as a lawyer as a successful business executive you're either going to get sued or

01:47:19.080 you're going to sue somebody and ndas happen in hush money whatever you want to call it it's a 0.73

01:47:23.160 it's a contract where it's like shut the hell up about your weird allegations and i'll give you 0.69

01:47:27.880 some nuisance value to go away well the campaign finance limit at the time was twenty eight hundred

01:47:33.740 dollars that's the problem when michael cohen uh gave stormy dandles 130 000 donation we're talking

01:47:40.700 around each other we're talking around each other yeah but a campaign donation whether it's a campaign

01:47:44.500 contribution is determined by brad smith by his objective test and you you all your only answer

01:47:51.460 to that is john edwards which means right one federal district court we talked about this

01:47:55.440 found the opposite and in a case in which john edwards was not convicted and no one else and yet

01:48:02.380 you discard the actual experts testimony and testimonial everywhere dave that this is the law and that

01:48:10.860 that judge got it wrong well the appell court determined whether it's a law that's mr smith's

01:48:16.960 opinion because when i confronted with john edwards he was like well they got it wrong so and the law

01:48:22.000 is not that clear and when the law says if it's meant to influence an election then it's a violation

01:48:27.140 it's clear it's clear all right uh you know i have a friend dave from law school her name is donna

01:48:33.400 she listens to this show every day and at the end of the show every day she's a democrat she sends me 0.88

01:48:39.760 a note and she says almost every time you're on dave is a good sport and i feel the same you are a good

01:48:47.240 sport thank you for coming on and giving us the alternate view and taking all the arguments when

01:48:51.480 you're kind of one man against three today yes she's a big fan as i know our mike and phil you guys

01:48:58.400 we appreciate it today and every day so i'm with dave on everything just about everything to deal with

01:49:05.240 israel but just not on this stuff he may be part of my and i need to move to florida and get a

01:49:10.940 prosecutor job part-time i'm gotta be nice look at this see we're all coming together in the end

01:49:18.500 lots of love guys thanks for coming on we'll see you soon thank you and thanks to all of you for

01:49:22.940 joining me today and all week what a week my god please tell me how you feel are you feeling the

01:49:28.960 kavanaugh way right like hot coals to get to the polls now on november 5th or are you one of those

01:49:36.040 leaners i mean i know my audience is kind of an interesting polling sample because i know i have

01:49:40.380 a lot of like deep maga who absolutely love trump and no matter what they're voting for him and i know

01:49:45.140 i have a lot of democrats too who are not hard left but soft left um and i wonder if you were thinking

01:49:52.020 about voting for trump does this matter to you email me okay email me megan m-e-g-y-n at megankelly.com

01:49:59.240 and while i have you should go to our website which is megankelly.com and you'll see some of the great

01:50:04.760 content that's been on fire for us this week making the rounds including that contentious

01:50:10.160 interview i mentioned with dan abrams who's also a pal and of the left he says he's a centrist

01:50:16.960 i think he's of the left uh anyway thanks to all of you we appreciate it and we're back on monday

01:50:22.440 with the ej's love them and for the first time ever the three of us will be in person i've actually

01:50:29.200 never have i met emily jashinsky in person i don't think i have i've seen eliana we did that debate

01:50:35.220 together anyway that's what's happening this monday hope you tune in have a great weekend

01:50:39.600 thanks for listening to the megan kelly show no bs no agenda and no fear

01:50:45.480 you

The Megyn Kelly Show - May 31, 2024

Trump Convicted - Now What？ Expert Legal Analysis, with Aidala, Eiglarsh, Dershowitz, Geragos, Aronberg, Davis, and Holloway｜ Ep. 807

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