The Megyn Kelly Show - Trump Makes Greenland Case in Davos, and Explosive New Busfield Details, with RealClearPolitics, Dave Aronberg and Mike Davis ｜ Ep. 1235

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00:00:45.700 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:47.540 Live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:57.420 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:58.920 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:01:00.580 Today on the program, a can't-miss legal panel.

00:01:02.760 I mean, we have a lot to go over with the legal panel in our second hour.

00:01:05.940 The judge overseeing Timothy Busfield's alleged child sex abuse case,

00:01:09.760 releasing Busfield from jail pending trial.

00:01:13.800 We'll do a deep dive on the new evidence that has emerged

00:01:16.900 about the parents of the children who are making the accusation.

00:01:22.240 And it is not good for the prosecution.

00:01:25.620 The defense lawyers got up there yesterday and said these parents,

00:01:28.920 they're not just like fraudsters, they're actual con men.

00:01:32.800 And I have to tell you, they're right from what I've seen, in my opinion.

00:01:37.540 That doesn't mean the boys are necessarily lying.

00:01:40.120 You cannot attribute the parents' fraud to the two children.

00:01:44.680 But this is a devastating development for the prosecution.

00:01:49.400 These parents, the father is a convicted fraudster.

00:01:53.880 He served time for fraud.

00:01:56.320 He was disbarred.

00:01:58.020 These are bad, bad, bad facts for the prosecution.

00:02:01.940 None of this was disclosed.

00:02:03.240 And there are other issues that have come up with the case.

00:02:05.260 And we'll take a fair look at it, as we always do.

00:02:07.700 With our legal panel, Dave and Mike are here.

00:02:10.160 And boy, do they have their hands full with what's happening in Minnesota as well today.

00:02:13.580 First, though, President Donald Trump once again shows up at the World Economic Forum in Davos

00:02:18.320 to completely mock other world leaders.

00:02:21.300 It was such a tour de force.

00:02:22.940 It was amazing to watch.

00:02:25.120 He delivered a show as only Donald Trump can.

00:02:28.500 He spared no one, not even the leaders of Switzerland, which is where the conference is.

00:02:34.900 I mean, everyone.

00:02:36.200 He had it for everyone.

00:02:37.920 It was like, boom, boom, boom.

00:02:40.100 And you over there in the back, what are you laughing at?

00:02:42.240 Here's one for you.

00:02:43.580 The main headline of the speech was the president, for the first time, explicitly saying

00:02:48.240 that America will not use force to take Greenland.

00:02:54.180 OK, he's saying that for the first time.

00:02:56.280 I won't do it.

00:02:57.660 But he says that in order to defend Greenland, which he says Greenland must have a defense,

00:03:04.040 which he does not believe Denmark can do.

00:03:06.020 The U.S. has to, has to actually own it.

00:03:10.400 Watch.

00:03:10.640 You probably won't get anything unless I decide to use excessive strength and force where we

00:03:16.800 would be, frankly, unstoppable.

00:03:19.860 But I won't do that.

00:03:22.420 OK, now everyone's saying, oh, good.

00:03:26.680 That's probably the biggest statement I made because people thought I would use force.

00:03:31.340 I don't have to use force.

00:03:32.440 I don't want to use force.

00:03:33.360 I won't use force.

00:03:34.220 All the United States is asking for is a place called Greenland.

00:03:39.440 And all we're asking for is to get Greenland, including right title and ownership, because

00:03:47.500 you need the ownership to defend it.

00:03:49.860 You can't defend it on a lease.

00:03:51.500 Number one, legally, it's not defensible that way, totally.

00:03:58.040 And number two, psychologically, who the hell wants to defend a license agreement?

00:04:03.820 I mean, good point.

00:04:07.300 And it went on from there.

00:04:08.660 I have so many great soundbites that I want to show you.

00:04:10.840 It's just Trump was in rare form this morning.

00:04:13.640 Tom Bevin, Carl Cannon and Andrew Walworth watched it there with Real Clear Politics and

00:04:18.000 also on the Megyn Kelly channel on Sirius XM Live every morning at 11 a.m. Eastern.

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00:05:27.520 Guys, welcome back.

00:05:28.740 How's it going?

00:05:29.800 I don't know.

00:05:30.940 I thought the president was highly entertaining today.

00:05:34.900 And to me, this is like Trump in full flourish.

00:05:38.680 This is the guy who at the, I don't know, it was like one of those economic summits first term,

00:05:44.500 and he grabbed the guy from Montenegro and shoved him, shoved him to the back

00:05:48.880 because the United States president wanted to be in the front row.

00:05:52.580 That was him, Tom.

00:05:53.920 He was, it was that guy today.

00:05:55.520 Like, you over there, you wouldn't even exist if it weren't for us.

00:05:58.820 And you'd be speaking German if it weren't for us. 0.98

00:06:01.560 And what are you laughing at over there?

00:06:03.040 I got something for you, Switzerland.

00:06:04.860 Your, your former prime minister is annoying.

00:06:07.440 It was, it was, I really enjoyed it.

00:06:11.280 And I have to say, I think I'm in the minority right now, but not for long.

00:06:14.740 I agree with him on Greenland.

00:06:16.200 He's actually convinced me on that.

00:06:17.540 I'm not so big on the Venezuela thing, and I certainly don't want to invade Iran. 0.90

00:06:21.260 But on Greenland, he's gotten me.

00:06:22.800 I can explain why.

00:06:23.660 But your thoughts overall, Tom, to kick it off on where we are and that soundbite in particular.

00:06:28.240 Yeah, this was, this was something by Trump.

00:06:31.600 And I did not see his press conference yesterday.

00:06:33.840 I was traveling back from Arizona.

00:06:34.980 And so I didn't see that.

00:06:36.500 It didn't get good reviews.

00:06:37.640 Apparently, he just sort of rambled on and on.

00:06:39.400 This one, he stayed on script pretty much.

00:06:42.060 I mean, he always goes off script to a certain degree, right?

00:06:44.020 But he did, he explained the rationale for why it's important for not just the United

00:06:50.300 States, but also Canada, which he took a shot at Mark Carney, the prime minister of Canada

00:06:54.800 as well, but also for Europe.

00:06:57.520 And he also said, and I thought this was interesting that, you know, when he was talking about Europe,

00:07:03.580 he said, listen, we want a strong Europe.

00:07:05.720 His, you know, we want you to be strong so you can defend yourself.

00:07:09.800 And we want you to be successful.

00:07:11.240 And in order to do that, you have to change these policies that you've had in place for

00:07:14.600 40 years that have weakened you as countries, mass immigration and energy being the two specific

00:07:20.040 ones that he mentioned.

00:07:21.140 But on Greenland, he did, he did explain sort of the rationale for it.

00:07:24.560 Now, whether you agree with it or disagree with it, I think it's clear, though, that Trump

00:07:27.900 sees this as a matter of national security interest for the United States moving forward.

00:07:34.600 And I was going to say urgently, and maybe it's not urgent, but I think to Trump, it is.

00:07:39.340 I mean, he's only got a couple more years left in office.

00:07:41.580 And he sees this as part of, I think, his legacy in terms of defending the United States.

00:07:47.980 And he talked about the Golden Dome and all that.

00:07:49.620 So it definitely was, I think, classic Trump and fairly entertaining stuff from him.

00:07:57.280 Here's a little bit more of what he said on Greenland on explaining why he wants it.

00:08:00.820 Sot 4.

00:08:01.160 Would you like me to say a few words of Greenland?

00:08:06.900 I was going to leave it out of the speech, but I thought, I think I would have been reviewed

00:08:11.660 very negatively.

00:08:14.800 I have tremendous respect for both the people of Greenland and the people of Denmark.

00:08:20.580 Tremendous respect.

00:08:22.460 But every NATO ally has an obligation to be able to defend their own territory.

00:08:27.140 And the fact is, no nation or a group of nations is in any position to be able to secure Greenland

00:08:34.920 other than the United States.

00:08:37.140 You know, everyone talks about the minerals.

00:08:39.700 There's so many places.

00:08:40.680 There's no rare earth.

00:08:42.640 No such thing as rare earth.

00:08:44.660 There's rare processing.

00:08:45.720 But there's so much rare earth.

00:08:48.960 And this to get to this rare earth, you got to go through hundreds of feet of ice.

00:08:55.740 That's not the reason we need it.

00:08:57.260 We need it for strategic national security and international security.

00:09:04.100 And that's the reason I'm seeking immediate negotiations to once again discuss the acquisition

00:09:09.360 of Greenland by the United States.

00:09:11.520 Here's just a little follow-up here in SOT 6.

00:09:15.660 So we want a piece of ice for world protection.

00:09:19.920 And they won't give it.

00:09:21.400 We've never asked for anything else.

00:09:23.560 And we could have kept that piece of land.

00:09:28.100 And we didn't.

00:09:29.100 So they have a choice.

00:09:31.560 You can say yes.

00:09:33.320 And we will be very appreciative.

00:09:35.840 Or you can say no.

00:09:38.320 And we will remember.

00:09:39.680 So, Carl, he's putting it online saying we want it.

00:09:44.320 It's actually not for rare earth minerals.

00:09:46.640 It's for national and international strategic and security reasons.

00:09:51.100 And the real explanation around this has been, you know, if you look at Greenland on a map,

00:09:56.900 you will see that thanks to global warming, we've had the entire sort of ice sheath around it melt away.

00:10:04.580 And it's far more accessible by people like Russia and China than it ever was before.

00:10:10.780 And if you pursue Trump's reasoning on the Monroe Doctrine, not in our hemisphere, that was coined by our fifth president,

00:10:18.740 that we're responsible for what happens in our hemisphere, which Greenland is.

00:10:22.060 And this one's been exposed in a way it wasn't 30 years ago, and that we actually have to take responsibility for it.

00:10:28.860 Because it's, you know, it's right above our evil top hat, Canada, and also to the right a little.

00:10:35.360 That's Michael Knowles' term for Canada.

00:10:37.820 That we have to take responsibility for it.

00:10:39.760 So what do you make of it?

00:10:40.980 I don't believe any of it.

00:10:42.140 I don't think it has anything to do with national security.

00:10:45.340 And I don't even think it's because of all the minerals.

00:10:48.260 I think Donald Trump wants a feather in his cap.

00:10:51.440 He wants it like, you know, Seward's Folly.

00:10:54.860 We got Alaska for, what, $7 million.

00:10:56.600 I think he wants Greenland because he, for the same reasons he renamed the Kennedy Center after himself.

00:11:02.340 I think he wants to acquire this territory.

00:11:05.160 It is rich in minerals.

00:11:06.460 And this, but this thing, Megan, you know, Tom and Andy, I don't think, feel strongly about this as I do.

00:11:13.840 I don't think they agree with me at all, actually.

00:11:15.520 But this idea that you go, you ridicule these people or shame them or threaten them because we liberated Europe from the Nazis.

00:11:26.920 You know, Russians lost 20 million people.

00:11:28.860 We shouldn't forget that, liberating Europe from the Nazis as well. 0.64

00:11:32.600 But it sets on its head Americans' idea of itself in the world.

00:11:40.080 It was General Mark W. Clark, World War II general, who said, you know, pointed out, we didn't go to Europe for conquest.

00:11:46.620 We went there to free these people from Nazi tyranny and protect the world, protect ourselves.

00:11:52.740 And he said, and all we ever asked for was a place to bury our dead.

00:11:55.580 That's the only territory we wanted.

00:11:57.480 Colin Powell said the same thing.

00:11:58.800 If you Google it, people Google will tell you Colin Powell said it.

00:12:02.040 But he was actually quoting Mark Clark, General Clark.

00:12:04.900 Now Trump comes along and said, no, sorry.

00:12:07.680 You guys would be speaking German if it wasn't for us. 1.00

00:12:10.860 And we had this territory and we want it back.

00:12:13.340 It's really ours.

00:12:14.980 It's like the most un-American thing. 0.64

00:12:17.860 It's like a New York insult comic turned real estate man turned politician.

00:12:23.340 Another word for it is true.

00:12:25.160 It's true.

00:12:26.180 I've said my piece.

00:12:27.040 It's like what?

00:12:29.100 No, I appreciate it, too.

00:12:30.060 I appreciate the counter point of view, because I got to tell you, like, we'll talk about the polls later.

00:12:35.240 And I know Trump's losing the independents and he's starting to lose them by a lot.

00:12:38.300 He's got overwhelming Republican support and he doesn't have any Democrat support.

00:12:42.380 He's starting to really slide with independents.

00:12:44.500 And my mom is an independent.

00:12:46.200 My mom is kind of a lifetime Democrat, but she did vote for Trump.

00:12:49.800 And she's she's in that independent group that's starting to slide.

00:12:53.180 And she sounds a little bit like you.

00:12:55.000 So, like, I appreciate the POV because there are a lot of people who have it.

00:12:59.120 So it's important to be exposed to it and understand how how Trump is affecting some people.

00:13:03.820 I mean, I think, Andrew, like the there's a real question about whether Europe is what it used to be and and how closely tied we ought to be to Europe.

00:13:15.260 It's not your granddad's Europe.

00:13:17.600 It's just not.

00:13:18.580 I mean, they're turning into an authoritarian group of countries themselves.

00:13:23.340 They are literally arresting people in Germany and the UK for thought crimes, for thinking the wrong thing and for tweeting the wrong thing.

00:13:35.760 I mean, it's getting genuinely scary over in Europe.

00:13:38.500 And so, like, people say, oh, we shouldn't be aligned with Russia.

00:13:42.220 We should be aligned with Europe.

00:13:43.820 It's like Europe is doing its level best to get closer and closer to what Russia is when it comes to free speech every day. 0.96

00:13:52.680 They're the ones making themselves less like what we first aligned with, with the influx of migrants and the changing on civil liberties and free speech. 1.00

00:14:02.700 And I think Donald Trump is looking at them saying amidst all this, you want us to pay for your defense, which is effectively what we do through NATO.

00:14:10.780 Those days are over.

00:14:11.740 And if they're not over, we want something for it.

00:14:15.840 And maybe it's a higher tariff, whatever.

00:14:17.940 But actually, what I'm telling you I want is Greenland.

00:14:21.140 And what I really want is for you to just stay the hell out of it.

00:14:24.200 Stay out of it.

00:14:25.020 We'll stay in NATO.

00:14:26.200 We'll continue paying the bills.

00:14:27.680 You all said you'd raise it to five percent, but you're not, in fact, doing that.

00:14:31.000 It's the United States price tag.

00:14:33.720 We all know that.

00:14:34.680 We're the ones responsible for defense.

00:14:36.440 If Germany gets attacked, if France gets attacked, it's the United States that will swoop in to save them. 0.67

00:14:41.160 Everyone knows that.

00:14:42.720 And now we have a president who's saying we'll do it, but we actually do want something in return.

00:14:48.420 And what we want right now is a country called Greenland, a territory.

00:14:52.580 And the reason we want it is, OK, he says not rare earth.

00:14:55.460 I accept that.

00:14:56.220 But strategic importance to the United States.

00:14:58.400 And we have an eye on our two main adversaries, Russia and China, in a way we didn't have to up there.

00:15:04.880 Well, I think I can buy part of that, but I do question whether the strategic importance of Greenland, in his mind, is really what's at stake here.

00:15:14.360 Because Greenland is important, but it's not that important.

00:15:17.800 And everything that we want to do in Greenland, we could do without acquiring the territory.

00:15:22.340 And the idea that somehow legally we would not defend it.

00:15:25.720 Well, we defend bases, U.S. bases all over the world that are in all different countries.

00:15:31.900 And we do have this thing called Article 5 with NATO, which says we're going to defend France and Germany and the other NATO countries.

00:15:38.860 So I'm not sure he's on firm ground legally when he says we need it in order to defend it.

00:15:43.980 But I do think that, and we played on our show Howard Lutnick's bite, which I thought was very revealing, where he talked to your point that Europe has followed this path of globalization and globalization has been a failure.

00:15:57.640 And that, to me, is the theme of the administration at Davos.

00:16:04.980 And I think that's a powerful theme.

00:16:06.400 And I think that Lutnick, in particular, because he made the point, he said, why would you go in the direction of electrification and trying to be sort of carbon neutral by 2030 if you don't even make your own batteries?

00:16:21.080 It was sort of like, oh, yeah, that's a really good way to put it.

00:16:24.560 So I think that message to Europe, we'll see if it gets through.

00:16:29.540 The other thing that he said, to your point, Megan, is he said that he knows that the U.S. will come to defend Europe.

00:16:37.020 He's not so sure that the opposite is true.

00:16:42.100 And that makes you think as well.

00:16:45.700 I mean, would France and Britain come to our defense?

00:16:49.600 It's a question that's worth asking.

00:16:51.200 So here he is a little bit more on that, Andrew, where he spoke to the changes in Europe and sought one.

00:17:00.180 Certain places in Europe are not even recognizable, frankly, anymore.

00:17:04.620 And I love Europe and I want to see Europe go good.

00:17:07.520 But it's not heading in the right direction.

00:17:10.540 In recent decades, it became conventional wisdom in Washington and European capitals that the only way to grow a modern Western economy was through ever increasing government spending, unchecked mass migration and endless foreign imports.

00:17:27.080 The consensus was that so-called dirty jobs and heavy industries should be sent elsewhere, that affordable energy should be replaced by the Green New Scam. 0.97

00:17:37.120 And that countries could be propped up by importing new and entirely different populations from faraway lands, very foolishly followed, turning their backs on everything that makes nations rich and powerful and strong.

00:17:54.260 So, Tom, what do we think the point of that was?

00:17:57.460 I agree with every word he said, but what is the point of saying that at Davos?

00:18:03.580 Well, I mean, I agree with it, too.

00:18:05.240 And I thought that was probably the strongest part of the speech.

00:18:08.920 And it goes back to what Andy said.

00:18:10.060 You know, we put this clip of Howard Lutnik saying, you know, listen, he's called globalization is a failure.

00:18:19.100 Now, that might be too strong of a word, but but certainly the argument that he's making that the United States is is pursuing a different path now that is going to put American workers first and is going to put American security first.

00:18:33.960 And I know, by the way, Europe, you should think long and hard about adopting these policies yourself because it will help make you stronger.

00:18:40.740 And you've been pursuing these policies for 40 years, which have made you weaker.

00:18:44.760 I mean, Trump went on this riff about windmills and how the more windmills they have in a country, the worse it is.

00:18:51.320 We have it. Hold on. Let me interject it quickly.

00:18:53.540 But hold your thought, because I do want to hear the back end.

00:18:55.680 Sot 3 here.

00:18:57.480 There are windmills all over Europe.

00:19:00.380 There are windmills all over the place. 1.00

00:19:03.520 And they are losers.

00:19:05.100 One thing I've noticed is that the more windmills a country has, the more money that country loses and the worse that country is doing. 0.99

00:19:15.020 China makes almost all of the windmills.

00:19:18.420 And yet I haven't been able to find any wind farms in China.

00:19:21.840 Did you ever think of that?

00:19:23.000 It's a good way of looking at it.

00:19:24.200 They're smart.

00:19:24.900 China is very smart.

00:19:25.940 They make them.

00:19:26.500 They sell them for a fortune. 1.00

00:19:28.480 They sell them to the stupid people that buy them. 1.00

00:19:31.520 Other than that, I think they're fabulous, by the way. 1.00

00:19:35.100 Go ahead, Tom.

00:19:38.280 It's classic Trump.

00:19:39.200 I do want to fact check him on the wind farms in China and see how many there are.

00:19:44.160 Well, there's wind farms all over Texas, Tom.

00:19:46.220 I mean, well, yeah, of course.

00:19:47.880 They exist?

00:19:48.380 Yeah.

00:19:48.860 Well, of course, under Joe Biden, they were subsidized.

00:19:51.080 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1.00

00:19:51.160 But they're a fucking nightmare, excuse me. 1.00

00:19:52.880 They're a nightmare. 1.00

00:19:54.020 Those wind farms are disgusting.

00:19:56.540 They barely get, like, the light in the studio on. 0.97

00:20:00.180 And they're an eyesore. 0.56

00:20:01.640 And they're killing the whales. 0.99

00:20:03.400 They really are.

00:20:04.100 Go look at Michael Schellenberger's documentary on it.

00:20:06.520 They kill the whales.

00:20:06.620 They kill the birds.

00:20:07.220 They're terrible for sea love.

00:20:08.000 I mean, they're really actually not very good on a variety of levels.

00:20:11.700 But they're toxic.

00:20:12.800 Those huge blades.

00:20:14.020 They're as long as an air, like a 747 aircraft.

00:20:17.280 And there are multiple of them on each windmill.

00:20:19.380 One falls into your water.

00:20:20.840 Your summer's effed.

00:20:22.160 Your kid's not going into the ocean.

00:20:23.860 It's, like, broken toxins everywhere.

00:20:26.600 For what?

00:20:27.260 So, like, you can, the same as, like, me blowing air in this studio.

00:20:31.980 It's barely any energy.

00:20:34.100 It's a nightmare.

00:20:35.060 Sorry.

00:20:35.680 I've got strong feelings on windmills.

00:20:36.440 I was going to say, how do you really feel about windmills?

00:20:38.420 Go keep going.

00:20:38.960 Windmills, Megan.

00:20:39.760 Jeez.

00:20:39.840 Because I spend my summers at the Jersey Shore.

00:20:42.260 And we've been dealing with this for years now.

00:20:44.480 So I've become a bit of an expert on them.

00:20:46.480 And they're really, truly a nightmare for the environment.

00:20:48.860 Like, you may think that they may help with global warming.

00:20:51.160 Let me tell you something they don't help with.

00:20:52.480 The environment, the existing Earth, is completely toxified and polluted by windmills.

00:20:58.220 And for what?

00:20:59.420 We're the coal captains of the world.

00:21:01.620 We have tons of oil.

00:21:02.880 We have so many wonderful natural resources that we can tap into.

00:21:06.000 That is more than, like, blowing like a little desk fan at the expense of our wildlife and our sea life and our vistas up and down the beautiful east and west coasts of America.

00:21:16.240 Sorry, Tom.

00:21:16.760 That's okay.

00:21:17.380 You triggered Megan, Tom.

00:21:18.640 You know, a couple of decades ago, I remember when it dawned on me when Ted Kennedy was like, you know, all the liberals were like, we've got to have wind.

00:21:28.880 We've got to have these wind farms. 0.89

00:21:30.480 And Ted Kennedy was like, you're not putting this thing off of Martha's Vineyard, you know?

00:21:33.920 And I was like, oh, okay.

00:21:35.500 Yeah.

00:21:36.000 I wonder why.

00:21:37.880 So anyway.

00:21:38.400 And look what happened.

00:21:39.240 Look what happened two summers ago.

00:21:41.140 A windmill collapsed.

00:21:43.000 It had some sort of a problem.

00:21:44.160 And the blades fell into the water and the people in Nantucket and Martha's Vineyard were affected and couldn't swim.

00:21:51.720 And the kids were, like, not able to go in the water.

00:21:54.180 It's just like taking a toxic stew, dumping it into your ocean, and then putting your three-year-old in it.

00:22:00.940 It's a no.

00:22:01.900 I mean, I already lived that swimming in the Hudson River at my grandparents' boatyard in the 1970s.

00:22:07.700 I could have been at NASA, okay?

00:22:10.060 But because of that, I wound up sitting at this desk trying to save the next gen.

00:22:15.960 That is great.

00:22:17.680 Well, that was quite a digression, I must say.

00:22:19.660 What were we talking about?

00:22:21.260 No, look.

00:22:22.060 Well, he's right about the windmills.

00:22:23.360 That's the point.

00:22:24.180 And he was attacking Europe on energy.

00:22:26.020 Exactly.

00:22:26.520 And he is right about the windmills.

00:22:27.940 But it speaks to this idea that, again, the message of the Trump administration going to Davos, in addition to speaking about Greenland, was, hey, we're pursuing policies that are different from what you guys have all been pursuing here at the WEF and all your Davos elites for the last 40 years.

00:22:46.140 And we've come here to say those policies have failed, and the proof is in the pudding.

00:22:51.820 If you look at growth rates across Europe and birth rates across Europe and mass migration and all of the welfare that they, all the money they spent, we talked about this on our show a little bit.

00:23:00.900 You can see the pendulum is now swinging back in the other direction in places like Denmark and Sweden and some of those countries who have, who are, these are not populous countries necessarily.

00:23:10.740 And they've imported all of these migrants from Northern Africa, have completely changed the nature, the landscape, and the culture. 1.00

00:23:19.240 And so I think this is a message that deep down in their hearts, they already know, a lot of Europeans already know that they've been on the wrong track.

00:23:27.080 And as I said, Trump is saying, and I think he said, I'm Scottish and German, and I was derived from Europe.

00:23:33.680 And we want Europe to succeed.

00:23:35.760 We want Europe to be strong and prosperous, and we will be great partners with you, but you need to be sort of get your own houses in order.

00:23:46.100 And I think that message, it resonates.

00:23:49.000 It resonates, I think, at home with Americans, but it also resonates with a lot of people abroad.

00:23:53.680 Yeah.

00:23:54.360 Here's a little bit more on the energy point, Sat, too, where he hits them for relying on others for energy in Europe.

00:24:01.000 Here in Europe, we've seen the fate that the radical left tried to impose on America.

00:24:07.820 They tried very hard.

00:24:10.080 Germany now generates 22 percent less electricity than it did in 2017.

00:24:15.400 And it's not the current chancellor's fault.

00:24:19.900 He's solving the problem.

00:24:21.640 He's going to do a great job.

00:24:22.840 But what they did before he got there, the United Kingdom produces just one third of the total energy from all sources that it did in 1999.

00:24:31.700 Think of that, one third.

00:24:33.940 And they're sitting on top of the North Sea, one of the greatest reserves anywhere in the world.

00:24:39.860 And this is, and we've heard this from him for a while, Carl, because he's very proud of bringing down gas prices here in America.

00:24:48.420 With the drill, baby, drill, you know, all options are on the table and has been touting, as he hit his one-year mark in the second term, how gas prices have fallen even below $2 in some places.

00:25:01.580 I mean, it's really, it's remarkable.

00:25:04.440 Speaking of my childhood, when I learned how to drive back in 1987, I remember it was like a big deal of the gas prices, if you could find one that was under $1.

00:25:15.580 Now, that was like 40 years ago.

00:25:18.600 Oh, my God.

00:25:19.460 Not quite, but like four decades ago is about $1 a gallon.

00:25:24.160 And Trump's talking about under his energy policies, in more and more places, it's under $2.

00:25:28.700 And in several places, it's just over $2 a gallon.

00:25:32.040 That is huge.

00:25:33.720 And he's standing up there, all these European leaders saying, you could have the same if only you didn't pursue this obscene climate change agenda, which is holding you back and as a result, holding us back in our partnership with you.

00:25:46.720 Yeah, I think that's right, Megan.

00:25:48.260 I don't want to agree with you, but I do.

00:25:50.980 So the thing is, though, this, you know, we used to hear this.

00:25:57.900 When Trump was first elected, I moderated a panel, RealClear did an event.

00:26:02.040 I think American Petroleum Institute was the sponsor.

00:26:04.400 And because it was RealClear, I said, okay, you can have some petroleum guys there, oil, gas, coal.

00:26:09.360 Let's get some, I won't mention windmills, Megan, but I'll mention solar.

00:26:14.760 Solar.

00:26:15.340 Thank you.

00:26:15.620 And, you know, straight out conservationists and nuclear.

00:26:20.160 And the nuclear guys were amazing because they looked like they'd had a reprieve.

00:26:23.880 The global warming, my beef with the global warming scare always was this.

00:26:29.300 If you really believed all these things you were saying, you would champion nuclear power.

00:26:33.480 And they never did.

00:26:34.220 They opposed it.

00:26:35.000 Same people.

00:26:36.020 Groups like NRDC that really should know better.

00:26:38.720 And it was partly cultural.

00:26:40.500 You know, they came from the left and there was no nukes.

00:26:42.480 I understood the coalition politics element of it.

00:26:45.320 But if you really believed in global warming was a threat, you would favor, you would have all of the above.

00:26:50.860 And they would say all of the above, but they didn't really mean it.

00:26:53.020 They meant all of the above except natural gas, coal, and, you know, fossil fuels.

00:26:59.280 But they didn't also want nuclear.

00:27:01.380 Germany and these countries, they've stopped building nuclear power plants.

00:27:04.120 They've taken coal fired.

00:27:05.260 That's crazy.

00:27:05.960 They've taken coal off.

00:27:07.220 What is China doing?

00:27:08.680 I don't know about China and windmills.

00:27:10.920 Again, Tom's right.

00:27:12.060 You have to fact check Trump.

00:27:13.120 He just sort of wings it sometimes.

00:27:14.840 But I know.

00:27:15.580 Our information is they do have windmills in China and I presume wind farms.

00:27:19.860 I think it's a question of scale.

00:27:21.340 Like how many.

00:27:21.940 But they're also building.

00:27:22.740 They're building nuclear power plants.

00:27:24.580 They're building coal fire plants.

00:27:26.220 China really is doing all of the above. 0.97

00:27:28.100 And if you cared about the economy and the environment, because you have to care about both,

00:27:33.340 you would favor these other sources, the disfavored sources, particularly nuclear power.

00:27:38.340 And what Trump is talking to these guys, you know, he has his own way of speaking.

00:27:41.840 What he's telling Europe is use some common sense for Germany to take these plants off

00:27:46.640 of offline and not build nuclear power plants and then have to buy gas from Russia while

00:27:51.780 they're trying to oppose Russia.

00:27:53.660 You know, it's not it's it's a mess of governance.

00:27:57.060 And what he's really saying to them, I think, is, you know, roll up your sleeves, get to work,

00:28:01.160 do good for your economy.

00:28:02.520 Quit being so politically correct.

00:28:04.160 Quit being hamstrung by, you know, your ideology or what's the fad of the moment.

00:28:09.520 He's talking to them like he's a business guy.

00:28:11.700 And I think that that's a message they probably need to hear.

00:28:15.140 And most people in Europe probably want to hear.

00:28:17.780 He you know, Andrew, when I listened to the speech today, what he was it was it was very

00:28:21.580 much in line with that speech J.D.

00:28:23.460 Vance made when he was over there and speaking to our European counterparts like you got to

00:28:27.540 stop this.

00:28:28.100 You got to stop with the open borders and the mass migration.

00:28:30.660 You got to stop with the free speech crackdowns like if we're going to have this longstanding

00:28:34.260 partnership where we're BFF, some special relationship, start acting like it, like start

00:28:39.080 behaving like something that is familiar to us.

00:28:42.080 And to me, this was Trump completely doubling down on that with a different a different

00:28:45.600 slightly different angle.

00:28:46.620 He mentioned those things.

00:28:47.380 But his his overall message to me was stop with the freeloading like those those days are

00:28:53.200 done.

00:28:53.880 You know, you had the president of the European Union stand up yesterday and say, oh, well,

00:28:59.000 you know, I guess times are changing.

00:29:00.600 And while we're really nostalgic for the way it used to be, we have to accept it.

00:29:04.800 And we're going to have to just like lean into our independence here in Europe.

00:29:08.080 And he had all these leftists like crying a tear like, oh, he's broken up our BFF relationship

00:29:12.640 with Europe.

00:29:13.500 And it's no Trump is looking at them saying, no, you're the leech friend who always makes 0.99

00:29:18.480 me pay when we go to the movies.

00:29:20.340 Everything we do, we have dinner.

00:29:22.080 I pay.

00:29:22.820 We have drinks.

00:29:23.480 I pay.

00:29:24.400 You go to the movies.

00:29:25.080 I pay you.

00:29:26.640 And by the way, I'm not even asking you to pay when we go to the movies.

00:29:30.400 I'm just asking you to not object when I go into the radio shack and steal that radio.

00:29:37.280 Kind of where where we are.

00:29:39.620 Let me give you a little flavor as he's he takes a shot at Canadian Prime Minister Mark

00:29:46.700 Carney, who kind of ripped on us yesterday, saying we stand with Greenland.

00:29:49.980 We stand with Denmark.

00:29:50.860 And here was Trump today in side eight going to be defending Canada.

00:29:56.100 Canada gets a lot of freebies from us, by the way.

00:29:58.740 They should be grateful also.

00:30:00.120 But they're not.

00:30:00.780 I watch your prime minister yesterday.

00:30:03.260 He wasn't so grateful that they should be grateful to us.

00:30:07.280 Canada.

00:30:08.440 Canada lives because of the United States. 0.75

00:30:10.760 Remember that, Mark, the next time you make your statements.

00:30:15.860 OK.

00:30:16.740 OK.

00:30:17.040 Yeah.

00:30:17.380 Thoughts?

00:30:17.720 Well, I mean, I guess a couple of things.

00:30:21.880 To me, like, you know, to understand Trump, you sort of have to go back to the art of the

00:30:25.840 deal.

00:30:26.300 And if you look at this sort of chain of events, you go from Venezuela, where he uses military

00:30:32.380 force and he talks a lot about oil.

00:30:35.380 And then he turns around and he has the whole world sort of focused on the idea that he's

00:30:40.740 going to use military force in Greenland to go after strategic minerals, right?

00:30:46.860 Because it follows.

00:30:47.880 It makes sense.

00:30:49.020 But what he's really doing is sort of he's amassing leverage is what he's doing.

00:30:55.120 And I think that's the way you sort of have to look at what he does.

00:30:57.860 Always think of, like, what leverage is he deriving from this latest action, even if you

00:31:03.680 don't understand it in the moment.

00:31:05.540 So today he goes there and he says, or he says, look, I'm taking, I'm not, it's not about

00:31:11.360 strategic minerals.

00:31:12.600 And I'm taking military force off the table.

00:31:15.640 And the market booms.

00:31:16.960 The market's up about 500 points, I think, right now.

00:31:19.180 And everyone has this sigh of relief.

00:31:22.580 And all of a sudden we seem to be in what now is the new normal, which is it seems okay

00:31:27.580 that what we're negotiating for is to take over a piece of territory that belongs to another

00:31:33.160 country.

00:31:33.860 But everyone kind of sighs, you know, sighs with relief at that.

00:31:38.480 So he's moved.

00:31:40.420 I don't want to call it, you know, four-dimensional chess or any of that.

00:31:43.760 But he certainly has moved the conversation in the direction he wanted it to go.

00:31:47.700 And that's where we are.

00:31:49.180 And to your broader point about Europe, I think, I think the message there is, and I

00:31:54.500 think Tom alluded to it, it's not just that we don't want you to be the freeloader anymore.

00:31:59.020 You would be better if you got your act together.

00:32:01.740 That's like saying to a friend, look, you know, you really should stop drinking.

00:32:05.180 You ought to wake up in the morning and do some exercise because that's what's good for

00:32:08.820 you.

00:32:09.340 It's good for me that you're no longer, you know, that I no longer have to pay for the

00:32:12.600 popcorn, but it would be better for you if you actually got him on your two feet and,

00:32:17.360 you know, manned up and, you know, took care of your economy, closed your borders,

00:32:21.480 provide your own people with your own energy and control your destiny.

00:32:27.200 That's what he wants America to do.

00:32:28.720 It's like to put it in terms of Trump to do.

00:32:30.400 Trump might understand.

00:32:31.400 It's like looking at the, you know, the girlfriend who's gained a hundred pounds.

00:32:36.320 Like, I'd love for you to lose the pounds. 1.00

00:32:38.920 I'd love for you to get back down to like a size four to six. 0.92

00:32:43.240 And then we can go out together again.

00:32:45.420 We can be seen together again.

00:32:46.960 You don't have to be my girlfriend who's in the dark bar anymore. 0.97

00:32:49.540 Like, I want to show you off.

00:32:51.100 I love it.

00:32:52.120 And Europe's like shoving, you know, processed food into its mouth.

00:32:56.560 Like, what do you mean?

00:32:57.780 What's wrong with us?

00:32:59.760 There was this moment.

00:33:01.240 I actually think it was kind of funny because, well, he's getting ripped for it.

00:33:06.080 But I had a different take here.

00:33:07.820 He kept confusing Iceland for Greenland.

00:33:10.720 He kept saying Iceland instead of Greenland.

00:33:12.980 Here's a bit of that in Sat 7.

00:33:15.360 Until the last few days when I told them about Iceland, they loved me.

00:33:19.620 They called me daddy, right, last time.

00:33:24.460 Very smart man said, he's our daddy.

00:33:27.200 He's running it.

00:33:28.260 I was like running it.

00:33:29.260 I went from running it to being a terrible human being.

00:33:31.640 But now what I'm asking for is a piece of ice, cold and poorly located, that can play a vital role in world peace and world protection.

00:33:45.680 With all of the money we expend, with all of the blood, sweat, and tears, I don't know that they'd be there for us.

00:33:53.500 They're not there for us on Iceland.

00:33:56.120 That I can tell you.

00:33:57.360 I mean, our stock market took the first dip yesterday because of Iceland.

00:34:00.680 So Iceland's already cost us a lot of money.

00:34:04.420 But that dip is peanuts compared to what it's gone up.

00:34:07.960 In response to which everybody in Iceland was like, what?

00:34:11.560 Leave us out of it.

00:34:12.700 Please.

00:34:13.860 Well, you know, Megan, in geography school when I was a kid, the teacher once told me, how do you differentiate Iceland from Greenland?

00:34:23.020 Iceland is green and Greenland's icy.

00:34:25.520 So I think.

00:34:26.760 That's right.

00:34:27.260 Iceland, ironically, is the nice warm one.

00:34:29.500 That's the one, you know, if we're talking about like tourism, that would definitely be the one we prefer.

00:34:33.400 What were you going to say, Tom?

00:34:34.020 Do you think he scared the bejesus out of people in Iceland? 0.94

00:34:37.960 Totally. 1.00

00:34:38.720 I think Iceland's like, oh, shit. 1.00

00:34:40.660 Exactly. 1.00

00:34:40.940 This is a Greenland problem. 0.65

00:34:42.880 No, I was going to say.

00:34:43.820 But I mean, it's a natural.

00:34:44.540 And it sent everybody on the left screaming, you know, 25th Amendment.

00:34:47.760 We've got to, you know, evoke the 25th Amendment.

00:34:50.320 Trump can't remember Iceland from Greenland.

00:34:52.000 Meanwhile, I have to say that's a very easy one to confuse.

00:34:55.980 I mean, he's talking about a block of ice, which is what Greenland is.

00:34:58.840 It's one huge hunk of ice, slightly less hunky right now because of all the melting, as I pointed out.

00:35:04.180 So he went after Canada's PM.

00:35:08.900 He got into it a little bit with Macron, who stood up there yesterday in these weird blue glasses.

00:35:15.680 And there was a lot of speculation online about whether Brigitte had taken another shot at him.

00:35:20.580 Remember, we saw her smack him getting off of their plane that time.

00:35:24.820 It was very weird.

00:35:25.700 And let's not forget, I mean, these two are very bizarre.

00:35:29.500 Like, she was almost 40, and he was a 14-year-old in her class when she fell in love with him.

00:35:37.140 I mean, it's very effed up, his relationship with Brigitte Macron.

00:35:41.080 So here he is in these weird glasses at the Davos summit, and many people were speculating why, of course, there's got to be a reason he wouldn't just wear those for his speech.

00:35:53.000 So it was one of those things that's kind of on the nose, but, well, literally on the nose, but that we had no explanation for.

00:35:58.880 And Trump, God love him, because truly any great TV producer, and at heart that's what Trump is, will mention the elephant in the room, right?

00:36:07.120 I mean, just as a quick aside, when Anna Nicole Smith went to the U.S. Supreme Court and I did my package for Brit Hume's show, special report, I did not mention how stunning and transformed she looked.

00:36:17.980 She had lost like 40 pounds.

00:36:19.740 And he pulled me aside, and he's like, you've got to mention that.

00:36:22.180 He's like, that's what everybody's noticing.

00:36:24.200 All the audience is looking at this new, like even more stunning Anna Nicole Smith.

00:36:29.200 You didn't call attention to it, like, and everyone's thinking it, like right behind their frontal lobe.

00:36:35.040 And it's your job as the reporter to say the thing.

00:36:37.220 And Trump says the thing.

00:36:38.860 So here's Trump on Macron in Sot 10.

00:36:41.880 So when I called up Emmanuel Macron, I watched him yesterday with those beautiful sunglasses.

00:36:51.180 What the hell happened?

00:36:54.040 And I like him.

00:36:55.400 I actually like him.

00:36:56.520 Hard to believe, isn't it?

00:36:57.560 And I said, Emmanuel, you're going to have to lift the price of that pill to $20, maybe $30.

00:37:07.320 Think of that.

00:37:07.860 That means it's a doubling.

00:37:09.760 A doubling of prescription drugs.

00:37:14.880 Might be a tripling.

00:37:15.860 Might be a quadrupling.

00:37:17.420 It's not easy.

00:37:18.720 No, no, no, Donald.

00:37:19.700 I will not do that.

00:37:21.460 I said, yes, you will, 100%.

00:37:23.520 He said, no, no, no.

00:37:26.740 And if you don't, I'm putting a 25% tariff on everything that you sell into the United States

00:37:32.380 and a 100% tariff on your wines and champagnes, no, no, Donald, I will do it.

00:37:38.800 I will do it.

00:37:41.040 It took me, on average, three minutes, a country, saying the same thing.

00:37:47.320 You will do it.

00:37:47.900 They all said, no, no, no, I will not do it.

00:37:51.240 You're asking me to double the cost of prescription. 0.89

00:37:53.700 I said, that's right, because you've been screwing us for 30 years. 0.85

00:38:01.200 There he is. 0.87

00:38:02.020 He's talking about prescription drugs and how he, one of the hardest things that he had

00:38:06.120 to negotiate was, RFKJ just said this is the toughest thing of his first year, was to change

00:38:11.300 the drug policy here to make us most favored nation with our drug companies and American

00:38:17.900 drugs that we're selling to France for $10 a bottle and we're selling to Americans for

00:38:24.640 $300 a bottle, which Trump and RFKJ took on.

00:38:29.060 And that's Trump giving us some of the backstory of how he handled it.

00:38:31.960 With the foreign leaders, like, I'm sorry, but your price is going to go up and our price 1.00

00:38:36.880 is going to go down.

00:38:38.120 There's still going to be a huge imbalance in your favor, but we're going to do something

00:38:42.300 to make it a little bit more even.

00:38:43.860 That is the shoot it into my veins stuff that could win Trump the midterms, notwithstanding

00:38:50.920 these terrible numbers that we mentioned earlier, right?

00:38:54.100 Like, that's it right there.

00:38:56.120 People love that stuff, I think. 0.94

00:38:57.680 Hearing how he's fighting for us, France gets screwed, not Iowa. 0.84

00:39:03.320 Thoughts?

00:39:04.120 Well, Megan, you're a lawyer, so I want to know what you think of this, because when

00:39:08.540 I watched that tariff part very carefully today, and he, I had two reactions, they're

00:39:14.500 opposite.

00:39:15.080 One is, he said that the president of, head of Switzerland, I don't know if it's a president

00:39:20.260 or a prime minister.

00:39:21.020 Well, I'll get to that.

00:39:21.800 I have this.

00:39:22.260 Yeah, he said, you know, okay, she kept saying, but we're a small country, and he was so irritated

00:39:27.120 by her, he raised her tariff from 30% to 39% just because he was pissed off.

00:39:33.680 And I thought, okay, if I'm on the Supreme Court, he's just giving me permission to say

00:39:38.380 he can't raise tariffs.

00:39:39.480 But then, as he went on, you realize he's using tariffs, it's not an economic, he's conducting

00:39:46.060 foreign policy there, and in a very direct way.

00:39:49.440 And, you know, the Supreme Court is reluctant to interfere with the president's right to

00:39:53.400 do foreign policy.

00:39:54.300 So, I was wondering which of those you thought would be more, would the Supreme Court notice,

00:39:59.280 would they notice those two sort of opposite?

00:40:01.780 So, I don't think they're going to notice.

00:40:03.600 He's made that argument.

00:40:04.700 They've, 100%, they've made the argument before the Supreme Court, which, for the listening

00:40:08.020 audience, they are deciding whether Trump single-handedly manipulating tariffs is constitutional

00:40:13.140 or whether this is something he needs congressional approval on.

00:40:15.640 They made the argument that he's using them as a foreign policy tool, which is uniquely

00:40:20.800 the function of the executive.

00:40:22.820 I'm sorry to tell you, I think Trump's tariff regime is going to get struck down.

00:40:26.640 I do not think he has any real hope of the Supreme Court upholding it.

00:40:30.860 I hope I'm wrong.

00:40:31.860 But the argument did not go well for the government.

00:40:34.320 And I do not think Trump's tariff power is going to last much longer.

00:40:38.980 And the real question, in my mind, is what does that mean for all the tariffs he's already

00:40:44.000 negotiated, manipulated?

00:40:47.740 You know, like the Supreme Court, nine justices aren't going to get involved in figuring that

00:40:53.660 out.

00:40:54.020 So, I don't know what happens.

00:40:55.340 That was one of his arguments to the court, too, is like, well, they have to stay in place

00:40:59.140 because we've already done it.

00:41:00.440 And if we have to undo all this stuff, it's going to be a disaster.

00:41:03.240 And so, well, maybe Congress will do its job and get back involved in a way that they

00:41:13.560 should be in the first place.

00:41:14.940 Pollyanna over here on third base. 1.00

00:41:17.200 We have all kinds on our show, Megan.

00:41:20.320 I love that about you guys.

00:41:22.500 We do have the Switzerland soundbite, which, I mean, it might have been my favorite soundbite

00:41:26.460 of the whole thing.

00:41:27.660 It was like an aside he decided to tell us about his dealings with the no longer prime 0.98

00:41:35.200 minister of Switzerland.

00:41:37.080 She just left in December.

00:41:38.740 And now there's a new guy there.

00:41:39.860 But here's, listen to this.

00:41:41.620 So they come in, they sell their watches.

00:41:44.580 No tariffs, no nothing.

00:41:46.000 They walk away.

00:41:46.760 They make $41 billion on just us.

00:41:52.620 So I said, no, we can't do that.

00:41:54.680 But I brought it up to 30%.

00:41:56.580 And the, I guess, prime minister, I don't think president, I think prime minister called

00:42:03.560 a woman.

00:42:05.940 And she was very repetitive.

00:42:09.300 She said, no, no, no, you cannot do that, 30%.

00:42:12.540 You cannot do that.

00:42:14.020 We are a small, small country.

00:42:16.340 I said, yeah, but you have a big, big deficit.

00:42:19.180 You may be small, but you have a bigger deficit than big countries.

00:42:22.940 He said, no, no, no, please.

00:42:24.120 You cannot do it.

00:42:24.940 Kept saying the same thing over and over.

00:42:26.740 We are a small country.

00:42:28.280 I said, but you're a big country in terms of, and he just rubbed me the wrong way.

00:42:33.720 I'll be honest with you.

00:42:35.720 And I said, all right.

00:42:37.780 Thank you, ma'am.

00:42:38.720 Appreciate it.

00:42:39.720 Do not do this.

00:42:41.100 Thank you very much, ma'am.

00:42:42.280 And I made it 39%.

00:42:43.880 And then all hell really broke out.

00:42:47.420 And I reduced it.

00:42:48.520 Because I don't want to hurt people.

00:42:51.400 I don't want to hurt them.

00:42:53.180 I realized with that, I don't know, I was so, because she was so aggressive. 1.00

00:42:57.560 And I realized in that conversation that the United States is keeping the whole world afloat.

00:43:04.880 There it is.

00:43:07.880 By the way, I guess it's the president, not the prime minister.

00:43:10.520 Yeah.

00:43:11.500 Corinne Keller Sutter is out.

00:43:13.900 Her term ended in December.

00:43:15.000 Now there's a new guy.

00:43:15.600 But there it is.

00:43:16.980 I realized in that conversation that the United States is keeping the whole world afloat.

00:43:23.580 I mean, if you could sum up the whole speech in one line, I think that's it.

00:43:28.620 Like, he's done.

00:43:29.340 The freeloading days are over, and we want something now.

00:43:34.440 And the price that he's asking for at the moment, I mean, we talked about other prices he exacted.

00:43:38.900 Like, yo, France, you're going to have to pay a bit more for these medications so that we pay a little less. 0.99

00:43:44.800 And you're so dumb to rely on all this, like, wind farm energy. 0.98

00:43:48.860 And why don't you get more self-sufficient? 0.99

00:43:50.640 So then you wouldn't be so dependent on Russia, Germany.

00:43:53.600 But what he's really saying is, I want Greenland, and I kind of want it now.

00:43:57.940 And that leads me to the unexpected hero of the week, Mort Halperin.

00:44:06.540 You guys may or may not have heard him.

00:44:09.740 You know the last name.

00:44:11.440 And his son happens to be a very famous journalist by the name of Mark, who has his own podcast called Next Up with Mark Halperin.

00:44:19.280 And it's on the MK Media Podcast Network.

00:44:21.100 And Mark had his dad, Mort, on his show last week.

00:44:24.900 And his dad, I think, is 92.

00:44:27.720 And at first, I, like you, I'm like, why is he putting his dad on to talk about the foreign policy issues of the day?

00:44:33.300 Well, it turns out his dad is a pretty famous foreign policy expert who worked for the Johnson, the Nixon, and the Clinton administrations, actually in government roles, I think both at Pentagon and at state, if I'm not mistaken, and knows a thing or two about foreign policy.

00:44:49.500 And in particular, NATO in our history with NATO and the United States role in NATO.

00:44:54.840 We played this on AM Update the other day.

00:44:57.320 Listen to Morton Halperin on the Greenland issue.

00:45:02.660 At the end of the day, our alternative is not to use military force.

00:45:06.680 Our alternative is to leave NATO.

00:45:08.600 And our position has always been, we will tell you what we need to remain in the alliance.

00:45:14.200 And you will tell us whether you're prepared to do that.

00:45:17.180 And if you're not, we won't be able to stay in the alliance.

00:45:20.040 That's perfectly reasonable.

00:45:21.460 Perfectly reasonable.

00:45:23.780 And this is obviously a Democrat.

00:45:25.120 He's connected with the open society.

00:45:26.800 Like, this is not a right-leaning guy.

00:45:28.680 And he went through on Mark's show some of the examples.

00:45:31.800 Like, at the beginning of NATO, the U.S. wanted the Germans to rearm.

00:45:35.860 And the rest of Europe did not want that at all, given what they'd just been through in World War II.

00:45:40.560 They did not want it.

00:45:41.520 They were forced to agree to it.

00:45:42.800 The U.S. said, we'll only do NATO, the formation of it, if we're allowed to put nuclear weapons in Europe.

00:45:48.640 The Europeans didn't want nuclear weapons in Europe.

00:45:51.080 We said, you will agree, or we're not doing it.

00:45:53.480 They did it.

00:45:54.540 He had multiple examples of where we, as the big dog of NATO, said, we understand you don't want it. 1.00

00:46:00.880 We don't give a shit. 0.98

00:46:02.220 It's happening because we're the most important member of NATO. 0.99

00:46:05.640 So that plus the Don Rowe Doctrine make me say, I get it. 0.95

00:46:11.260 And Trump is out there like, you're a bunch of freeloaders.

00:46:13.860 This is what we want. 0.61

00:46:15.400 Stop complaining and just give it to me.

00:46:17.760 So do we think it will happen?

00:46:20.540 Okay.

00:46:20.780 We've fleshed out some of the arguments for and against.

00:46:22.980 Do we think it's going to happen as a result of today or Trump in general?

00:46:27.500 Tom?

00:46:28.700 Do I think that we are going to purchase Greenland?

00:46:32.040 We get Greenland.

00:46:33.140 Yeah.

00:46:33.520 I do not think that that is going to happen.

00:46:37.200 I would probably peg it at like a 20% chance, which is not nothing, but I think the odds are still against.

00:46:44.660 I take the opposite.

00:46:45.840 I'll take the 80% chance by the time Trump leaves office.

00:46:48.580 As I say, we have Greenland.

00:46:50.660 It's a territory.

00:46:51.600 It's not going to be a state.

00:46:52.880 Nobody wants them to have voting rights as Americans. 0.99

00:46:55.280 What do you say, Carl?

00:46:56.120 I think it's going to blow up on our face and Greenland is going to end up as an independent country with a government that resembles Mom Donnie's cabinet in New York City.

00:47:05.640 Oh, good God.

00:47:06.880 Oh, man.

00:47:09.580 Okay.

00:47:10.420 Andy?

00:47:10.900 Well, I will say that Mort Halpern is a very prominent foreign policy expert, and it's great that he's still with us.

00:47:20.760 I'm glad to hear that, and I'm glad that he's still talking.

00:47:22.780 I would say it's a bigger chance today than it was yesterday.

00:47:29.860 I think that I'd give it about a 33 and a third percent chance.

00:47:34.960 I think it's a one.

00:47:35.860 Okay.

00:47:36.320 Three.

00:47:36.720 I actually think that some sort of, you know, there's some sort of agreement somewhere between statehood and where we are now that we end up.

00:47:47.420 I think it'll change for sure.

00:47:48.900 Who do you think, Megan? 0.98

00:47:49.920 So we got 80.

00:47:50.860 I say 80 percent chance by the end of – yeah.

00:47:54.520 We're going to get it.

00:47:55.600 We're getting agreement.

00:47:56.820 Yeah, I really feel sorry about it.

00:47:57.660 But when you say we're getting it, how are we getting it?

00:48:00.340 We're getting it.

00:48:00.720 Like Puerto Rico?

00:48:01.600 What's it going to be?

00:48:02.260 We're going to negotiate.

00:48:03.000 We're going to negotiate.

00:48:03.860 We're not taking it over by military force, but Trump is going to scare them to the point where they give it to us because it's just easier because we're footing all their bills.

00:48:11.820 They want the free dinners, and they want the free movie tickets, and they want the popcorn.

00:48:14.700 Are they giving it to us, or we're buying it, right?

00:48:16.580 We're going to pay for it, right?

00:48:17.680 We're buying it.

00:48:18.440 We're going to buy it.

00:48:19.800 I'll tell you something.

00:48:20.460 And he'll come up with something that's 100 percent.

00:48:22.060 I'll tell you something that's 100 percent.

00:48:22.340 You're saying $7 million we paid for Alaska?

00:48:25.700 No.

00:48:26.840 Unfortunately, I don't think it's that cheap anymore.

00:48:28.360 But he'll find some way to say to the American people that we're not exactly paying for it.

00:48:32.200 You know, he's going to use the Venezuelan oil money, something like that.

00:48:35.500 Keep going, Andy.

00:48:36.320 Here's 100 percent.

00:48:37.340 However it turns out, Trump will take credit for it, and it will be a great victory.

00:48:41.580 Wow.

00:48:42.660 Whatever the outcome.

00:48:43.520 I mean, it would be Trump's credit.

00:48:45.420 I mean, then nobody else would have been able to push this through.

00:48:48.160 But I think he's going to do it.

00:48:49.320 So you've got 80 from me, 20 from Tom, 33 and a third from Andy, and zero, it blows up

00:48:54.720 in our faces from the optimistic Carl Cannon.

00:48:57.280 If it does happen, Megan, I am looking forward to staying at Trump Tower and playing the golf

00:49:02.160 course in Greenland.

00:49:03.020 That's going to be a lot of fun.

00:49:05.440 Let's go.

00:49:06.000 We'll ride a dog sled together, Tom.

00:49:07.500 All right.

00:49:10.320 Let me ask you, finally, a political question, which is those polls.

00:49:15.060 They're not good.

00:49:17.000 Just a couple of CNN polls.

00:49:18.880 His overall job approval now at 39.

00:49:21.400 But what they show is that his approval rating amongst independents is now at 29.

00:49:25.440 It was at 29 in October, too.

00:49:27.220 So it's not exactly falling.

00:49:28.680 But they're not feeling so rosy about the Trump presidency.

00:49:31.520 And those who say they're extremely enthusiastic to vote in the midterms are all Democrats.

00:49:37.980 The lopsidedness of enthusiasm and readiness to vote in November is alarming, I think, for

00:49:44.920 anybody who likes Republican rule, shall we say.

00:49:49.580 So is there any chance we turn this around?

00:49:51.800 It's not tomorrow, but it's, you know, 10 months away.

00:49:56.160 So I would say that Republicans have about six months, if that.

00:50:01.900 I mean, these days we're so tribal, like a lot of people have already decided who they're

00:50:05.300 going to vote for, right?

00:50:06.180 Republicans are locked in for Trump.

00:50:07.560 Democrats are locked in.

00:50:09.140 Or I should say Republicans will vote for Republican in the midterms.

00:50:12.900 And Democrats will vote for Democrats.

00:50:14.740 And as you mentioned, Democrats right now are way more enthusiastic than Republicans are.

00:50:18.600 And then the question is, is there movement among independents, right?

00:50:22.500 Can Trump and Republicans win back some of the independents before they actually go to

00:50:28.840 the polls?

00:50:29.360 I think the answer is yes.

00:50:31.600 And I think they've got about six months to do it.

00:50:33.320 Trump has been promising, Mike Johnson has been promising, hey, you know, the one big

00:50:36.860 beautiful bill is just kicking in.

00:50:38.200 Just give us some more time.

00:50:39.620 Trump just complained about his PR folks the other day, right?

00:50:42.780 Which is, you know, when your poll numbers are bad and Biden did this, I mean, Obama did

00:50:49.660 this, it's always like, it's a messaging problem.

00:50:51.780 It's not a policy problem. 0.99

00:50:52.840 It's just, you know, our message is, you know, voters are too dumb to understand or we're 0.99

00:50:56.560 just not getting through to them. 0.99

00:50:59.020 There's a-

00:50:59.600 It's not a good sign.

00:51:00.340 No, that's not a good sign.

00:51:01.260 And I think Republicans-

00:51:02.460 But I have to say, part of me thinks it might actually be true in Trump's case, because

00:51:06.560 he does have a good story to tell.

00:51:07.800 I think there's a reason he's out there now personally telling it.

00:51:10.920 I agree.

00:51:11.160 Gotta run.

00:51:11.460 Love you guys.

00:51:12.100 Thanks for being on the MK Channel.

00:51:13.940 To be continued, up next, our legal panel with Dave Ehrenberg and Mike Davis.

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00:53:27.960 All right, there's a lot to get to on the legal front today.

00:53:31.520 Including, can Don Lemon be prosecuted over the outrageous protest at the Minnesota church on Sunday?

00:53:39.940 What about the others who are there?

00:53:41.940 What charges are going to be brought against them?

00:53:44.960 And what do we make now of the charges against Timothy Busfield

00:53:48.520 after having learned more about the shady past of the two little boys' parents?

00:53:54.720 Not the two little boys, but their parents.

00:53:57.400 All right, we're going to get into all of it today with our MK True Crime contributor, Dave Ehrenberg,

00:54:02.440 who you can find on Substack at Dave Ehrenberg.

00:54:05.280 And Mike Davis, founder and president of the Article 3 Project.

00:54:09.900 I'm so happy to have you guys here.

00:54:11.700 There's a lot to dig into on just those few matters.

00:54:14.980 Okay, let's just start with the, I mean, I thought it was an act of terrorism what we watched in that church on Sunday.

00:54:21.620 I don't call it a protest.

00:54:22.740 It wasn't a riot exactly.

00:54:24.440 It was more of like an act of terrorism targeting innocent people minding their own business who had done nothing and trying to scare them.

00:54:34.320 Yeah, there's a little bit of it.

00:54:35.800 Even Don Lemon admits on the tape that he saw little children frightened and scared, didn't care.

00:54:44.440 Neither did the protesters who clearly wanted to scare the people there.

00:54:48.540 And what we heard Kristi Noem say last night on Fox, Mike, or no, it was on maybe Newsmax, was you're going to see arrests within hours.

00:54:57.500 Now, before I officially toss it to you, a lot of people saying they're taking too long.

00:55:02.840 Pam Bondi, Harmeet, Harmeet runs civil rights. 0.61

00:55:06.120 Pam Bondi is, of course, the overall AG.

00:55:09.120 It's taking too long.

00:55:10.200 But when you're in federal court, when you're the DOJ, you have to bring charges with a criminal complaint and a warrant.

00:55:18.920 And that requires a judge's signature.

00:55:21.940 This happened on Sunday.

00:55:23.720 Courts are closed.

00:55:24.600 Monday, courts were closed because of MLK Day.

00:55:27.500 Which gives them Tuesday to possibly get all this stuff ready, cross all the T's and dot the I's, because this is going to be challenged and scrutinized.

00:55:36.360 And there's going to be 10,000 ACLU-type groups looking to poke holes in whatever they file.

00:55:41.800 So it is important that they be very careful here.

00:55:44.940 But I think today is the day, Wednesday, that we'll probably see arrests.

00:55:49.240 And if not today, then tomorrow.

00:55:50.260 You take it from there, Mike Davis, because I have a feeling you're more in the loop than I am.

00:55:54.400 Well, I think that Attorney General Pam Bondi and Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights, Harmeet Dillon, along with Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche, FBI Director, Cash Patel, they have all made it crystal clear that people who terrorize church services, people who trespass into Sunday services, disrupt the service.

00:56:22.260 They're going to face federal criminal charges.

00:56:26.920 And there are two federal statutes that are directly on point here.

00:56:31.380 There's the federal FACE Act passed in 1994 by Bill Clinton to protect both abortion clinics from obstruction and as a compromise for Republicans to get the 60 votes to get this passed in the Senate.

00:56:48.160 They also passed the FACE Act to include houses of worship.

00:56:53.180 So that is a federal crime to obstruct churches, to obstruct synagogues and mosques.

00:57:00.100 And it's very clear that that's what Don Lemon and his co-conspirators, his modern-day Klansmen, did when they went into this Minnesota church and disrupted the service.

00:57:14.140 Don Lemon actually went up to the pulpit and disrupted the pastor during the middle of the service.

00:57:20.820 This is a slam-dunk Facebook Act violation.

00:57:24.580 It's also a violation of the Ku Klux Klan statute, 18 U.S.C. Section 241, Conspiracy Against Rights, when you have a mob of people going into churches to disrupt the churches because of their Christian faith, because of their race.

00:57:45.440 And Don Lemon made it very clear in his so-called reporting, that's why he did it.

00:57:52.560 That's why his co-conspirators did it.

00:57:55.960 He's also going to face charges under the Klan statute.

00:57:59.880 I'm with you, Megan.

00:58:01.200 I wish that Don Lemon would have been charged under the Klan statute on MLK Day. 0.67

00:58:07.440 It would have been so rich.

00:58:08.920 But the grand juries are not in service on federal holidays.

00:58:12.720 Yes. So we looked into it, and it does appear to me, Dave, that the likely charges coming are going to be exactly what Mike just said.

00:58:23.520 It's not just going to be the FACE Act.

00:58:25.500 It's not just going to be the Klan Act. 0.78

00:58:27.580 It's going to be both.

00:58:29.460 And if you charge both, then you have the effect of basically raising the FACE Act from a misdemeanor to a felony.

00:58:37.820 If you use the Klan Act, you can charge a felony.

00:58:40.200 And there was just case law out of the 11th Circuit, which oversees where you are, down in Florida.

00:58:45.580 This, of course, happened in Minneapolis.

00:58:47.360 But it's persuasive, and it's not binding out of the 11th Circuit over Minnesota, but it's persuasive,

00:58:53.660 saying that the violation of rights under the Klan Act can be, like you can charge somebody with violation of rights under the Klan Act,

00:59:01.980 if they have violated the FACE Act.

00:59:04.960 So if they have obstructed physically or intimidated anyone attending a religious service,

00:59:12.440 that can be the predicate violation for a violation of the Klan Act,

00:59:18.220 which raises what would otherwise be a misdemeanor to a felony, potentially up to 10 years in jail.

00:59:24.700 I mean, no one is really expecting that to be the penalty, but it does make this a lot more serious than a misdemeanor,

00:59:29.960 which could be more of a slap on the wrist.

00:59:31.740 Your thoughts on it?

00:59:32.840 Megan, good to be back with you and Mike.

00:59:34.480 And thank you, by the way, for your nice words.

00:59:36.380 I heard them on a previous show about me, that I'm one of the good liberals,

00:59:41.660 although I don't consider myself a liberal, sort of a centrist, but I appreciate the nice words.

00:59:45.300 Thank you.

00:59:47.020 It was all heartfelt.

00:59:47.940 Thank you.

00:59:48.280 Well, I disagree with my friend, Mike.

00:59:50.640 I know that surprised you, but when it comes to the Ku Klux Klan Act,

00:59:54.100 and then we can talk about the FACE Act,

00:59:56.060 but the Ku Klux Klan Act has to face the Supreme Court decision from 1983.

01:00:01.000 It's called Bray v. Alexandra Women's Health Clinic.

01:00:04.900 The issue is you have to show that they blocked the church because they had animus towards Christians.

01:00:13.860 And Justice Scalia was the one who wrote for the majority in that opinion.

01:00:16.980 He said that the opposition to abortion, this was an abortion clinic case,

01:00:21.360 opposition to abortion did not equate to animus against women.

01:00:24.340 So the Ku Klux Klan Act did not apply.

01:00:26.780 The protesters targeted women only because they were the ones obtaining abortions.

01:00:30.020 The goal was to stop the activity, not to hurt the class.

01:00:32.800 So if you apply that here, that the reason why they were there was not because they hated Christians,

01:00:38.780 it was because they went after David Easterwood.

01:00:40.980 He is the pastor of that church who is also an ICE guy.

01:00:44.160 He's like high up somehow in ICE in that area.

01:00:46.980 If Easterwood had been on a golf course, they would have protested there.

01:00:50.200 So I don't think you can show the animus against Christians there.

01:00:53.760 I think that the Ku Klux Klan Act does not apply.

01:00:56.120 You could have trespass.

01:00:57.700 You could have disorderly conduct.

01:00:59.260 But I don't think there's a federal crime here.

01:01:00.500 You definitely have trespass.

01:01:01.440 Yeah, and I agree.

01:01:02.560 You have trespass, dead to rights.

01:01:04.720 But that's a state crime.

01:01:05.720 Right.

01:01:05.820 And we probably aren't going to see a state prosecutor that wants to pursue it.

01:01:09.540 So we have to stay in federal lane if we actually want to get these folks charged.

01:01:13.560 Mike Davis, this is an interesting argument, though, about is there animus by the protesters,

01:01:19.300 so-called, against the church?

01:01:20.880 I know you've raised this.

01:01:22.980 Their number one protester, Don Lemon, seems to have served Pam Bondi up a beautiful dessert 1.00

01:01:27.820 on a silver platter here with the following comments because he can't keep his stupid mouth 1.00

01:01:34.280 shut. 1.00

01:01:35.100 He decided to go talk all about his great feet on the Angry Leftist Ladies podcast and said

01:01:42.320 a couple of things about these churchgoers.

01:01:44.820 I'm going to play 31 and 32.

01:01:46.780 Listen.

01:01:47.640 Jesus turned the tables over in the temple, right?

01:01:51.280 He flipped the tables because he was tired of them not doing what they're supposed to do

01:01:56.380 in his father's house and not living up to the tenets of Christianity.

01:02:01.800 And so, you know, it is surprising to me if it is true that this person somehow works for ICE.

01:02:09.560 And also, it is true that they're not understanding now of the protesters is that they're doing

01:02:15.660 the exact opposite of what Christianity is supposed to be about.

01:02:18.440 I think that there is, obviously, there's racism, and the whole point of it is that they're

01:02:22.320 detaining people on the streets because of accents and the color of their skin, and they're

01:02:27.360 also targeting people of color and black people as well as brown people.

01:02:32.420 So there is a certain degree of racism there, and there's a certain degree of entitlement.

01:02:35.960 I think people who are, you know, in religious groups like that, it's not the type of Christianity 0.99

01:02:40.520 that I practice, but I think that they're entitled, and that entitlement comes from a

01:02:45.800 supremacy, a white supremacy.

01:02:47.660 And they think that this country was built for them, that it is a Christian country, when

01:02:51.060 actually we left England because we wanted religious freedom.

01:02:54.000 It's religious freedom, but only if you're a Christian and only if you're a white male, 0.76

01:02:57.580 pretty much.

01:02:58.420 And so, yeah, absolutely 100%, but it's an intimidation tactic.

01:03:04.120 Okay, Mike, thoughts? 0.99

01:03:05.340 Don Lemon is probably the dumbest person on television right now. 0.98

01:03:10.880 He just admitted to his criminal intent under the Klan statute when he made it very clear 0.99

01:03:17.560 that they were going into that church because they are Christians, A, and B, because they're

01:03:23.400 white Christians.

01:03:24.000 So you have religious bigotry and racial bigotry, which makes this fall squarely into the Klan statute.

01:03:31.700 Don Lemon, he is, if I'm not, if I were a betting man, I would put everything on the line that

01:03:42.320 Don Lemon will be indicted under the FACE Act and the Klan statute under felony charges.

01:03:48.560 Now, remember under the FACE Act as well, it is a class A misdemeanor up to one year in

01:03:54.580 jail for first-time offenders, but if there is repeat offenders or if there is violence as part

01:04:02.400 of the FACE Act violation, it becomes a felony.

01:04:05.800 So he could face two felony charges.

01:04:08.320 If you are threatening people inside the church like they did, you saw the terrified child.

01:04:14.500 I don't think any jury is going to be...

01:04:16.120 Does he have to do it, Mike?

01:04:17.560 Does he have to do the threatening?

01:04:19.040 No, it's part of the conspiracy.

01:04:20.780 Everyone who's involved with the conspiracy is responsible for the conspiracy. 0.95

01:04:25.600 So I think Don Lemon is totally screwed here.

01:04:30.300 You know, he's the non-lawyer, non-attorney Don Lemon is going out there telling people what 0.97

01:04:36.660 the law is. 1.00

01:04:37.660 He's trying to cover his ass. 0.99

01:04:39.560 It's not going to work. 1.00

01:04:40.640 Pam Bondi and Harmeet Dillon are almost certainly going to indict him. 0.90

01:04:44.900 He did something very dumb, Dave, and it was the same thing that Timothy Busfield did.

01:04:50.640 He spoke out about his alleged crime in a way that no lawyer would have wanted him to. 0.94

01:04:57.100 Timothy Busfield spoke directly to police and made a bunch of admissions that came back in

01:05:01.440 his face yesterday.

01:05:02.940 And Don Lemon, speaking with the angry lady, made a bunch of admissions there about targeting 0.99

01:05:09.360 these churchgoers for a specific reason, that they're doing the exact opposite of Christianity, 0.98

01:05:16.580 that he believes they target people of color, they're racists, they're white supremacists, 0.94

01:05:22.700 they have a sense of entitlement, that they don't practice Christianity the way I practice 0.96

01:05:27.720 Christianity.

01:05:28.240 That's what he actually said on camera.

01:05:30.380 I mean, it went on and on.

01:05:31.500 He like, it's not enough to say he tripled down.

01:05:33.840 He like quintupled down on this messaging, which is not great for his defense lawyer.

01:05:39.160 Well, I watched the interviews that he had on his channel, and he was showing people on

01:05:43.200 both sides of this debate.

01:05:44.920 And I didn't get that he was anti-Christian.

01:05:47.160 He may have said they have a different interpretation of the religion as I do.

01:05:50.400 But Justice Scalia himself said that protesting an activity like ICE enforcement is not the same

01:05:56.580 as hating a class of people.

01:05:58.580 They were chanting slogans like justice.

01:06:00.540 They were chanting slogans like ICE out.

01:06:02.960 They weren't chanting anti-Christian slogans.

01:06:05.400 So I don't think they can get there on this, in fact, to prove this case beyond a reasonable

01:06:08.840 doubt.

01:06:09.520 The one thing I agree with, Mike, is that I do think that they'll all be indicted because

01:06:13.500 we saw this with the Trump administration going after James Comey and Letitia James.

01:06:18.260 But I think it'll meet the same fate where it'll get dismissed before it ever gets to a

01:06:22.100 jury.

01:06:22.700 One last thing on this.

01:06:24.720 Just for Don, just to be clear, are you talking about just for Don or you're saying all the

01:06:28.900 protesters?

01:06:29.440 There's no criminal charges against all the protesters.

01:06:31.220 I think against Don, it's weaker than the others because he is a journalist.

01:06:34.480 I think the others, I think they'll all be charged.

01:06:37.340 But I don't think you can get the federal crimes here.

01:06:39.600 I think they could be convicted of trespass and disorderly conduct.

01:06:43.680 But those are low-level misdemeanors.

01:06:45.360 You're right.

01:06:45.720 They're state charges, not federal charges.

01:06:47.400 I don't see them being convicted of either the KKK Act or the FACE Act, which is what 0.94

01:06:53.380 we mentioned earlier, which is supposed to protect houses of worship because also they

01:06:58.560 didn't block people from leaving.

01:07:00.000 They were chanting.

01:07:00.780 They really made people uncomfortable.

01:07:03.940 But the standard is in the Eighth Circuit, which is a conservative circuit, that you've got

01:07:07.740 to block people from leaving.

01:07:09.400 It's like chaining yourself to an abortion clinic.

01:07:11.360 That's a no-no.

01:07:12.360 Chanting outside of abortion clinic?

01:07:14.120 That's free speech.

01:07:15.560 No, no, no, no.

01:07:16.700 Okay, just so we know what the statute says.

01:07:19.420 I'm going to give it to you, Mike, but let me just read the statute in part, the FACE Act,

01:07:22.700 18 U.S. Code, Section 248.

01:07:26.020 Whoever, by force or threat of force or by physical obstruction, intentionally injures,

01:07:31.940 intimidates, or interferes with, or attempts, attempts by, again, this is by force or threat

01:07:39.200 of force or physical obstruction.

01:07:41.780 You can do it by any one of those means.

01:07:43.420 You can use force against the people, you can threaten to use force against them, or

01:07:47.440 by physical obstruction, if you do, by any of those means, if you attempt to intimidate,

01:07:53.540 injure, or interfere with any person who is trying to exercise their First Amendment right

01:07:59.920 of religious freedom, you're done.

01:08:02.680 You're, like, you're guilty.

01:08:03.980 So that's the question.

01:08:06.040 Did they, by force, by threat of force, or by physical obstruction, intimidate or interfere

01:08:15.420 with someone exercising their First Amendment right of religious freedom?

01:08:20.700 I mean, Mike, to me, that is so clear.

01:08:22.680 It's so clearly a yes.

01:08:23.920 It's crystal clear.

01:08:25.260 When Don Lemon, the agitator, went up to the pulpit and stopped the church service and

01:08:31.940 argued with the pastor during the middle of the church service, I don't think you can

01:08:36.540 get more facey in the Face Act.

01:08:39.380 Like, he was literally in the pastor's face under the Face Act.

01:08:43.000 So I think the Face Act is squarely on point here, and so is the Klan statute. 0.75

01:08:51.840 And he was told, specifically by the pastor, they don't want to talk to you.

01:08:57.380 Like, he made perfectly clear, the church pastor made perfectly clear to Don Lemon, who emerges

01:09:02.540 their spokesperson, they want you out of here.

01:09:05.540 The people don't want you here.

01:09:06.880 And the pastor screamed from the pulpit through his microphone, this is wrong.

01:09:11.380 This is immoral.

01:09:12.120 He wanted them out.

01:09:13.560 He made all of them aware of that.

01:09:15.240 And they continued to terrorize the group.

01:09:17.600 So, I mean, you tell me.

01:09:19.040 No, they didn't, like, hold people down, Dave, but they were blocking the aisles.

01:09:23.200 We saw that quite clearly.

01:09:24.400 They came in a mass of them and blocked the aisles, overtook the front where the pulpit

01:09:30.060 is, to the point where people felt intimidated and were in tears.

01:09:33.660 Did those people feel totally free to leave?

01:09:35.260 They just decided to stay there crying?

01:09:36.700 Well, people left.

01:09:38.340 And as far as whether they-

01:09:40.200 Some did.

01:09:40.520 Right.

01:09:40.720 And some just sat there crying.

01:09:42.200 Well, it's an important factual point here as to whether they did block the ingress and

01:09:49.000 egress.

01:09:49.400 That's important because the term physical obstruction, that's the key here.

01:09:53.080 And that is defined in the statute.

01:09:55.180 If you look at subsection E4, it says the term physical obstruction means rendering impassable

01:10:01.660 ingress to or egress from a facility or rendering passage to or from such a facility unreasonably

01:10:08.600 difficult or hazardous.

01:10:09.560 So you've got to show that they've made the service more than just uncomfortable.

01:10:13.980 You've got to show that they've made movement impossible or hazardous.

01:10:17.380 That's not what Don Lemon did.

01:10:18.840 As far as the protesters, I don't know.

01:10:21.180 Hold on.

01:10:21.600 The Biden Justice Department imprisoned for years 75-year-old Christian men and women who

01:10:30.260 went into abortion clinics and prayed, right?

01:10:33.080 If you can throw elderly Christians in prison for praying in an abortion clinic, you can 1.00

01:10:40.620 put Don Lemon and his fellow Klansmen in prison for what they did at that church last Sunday. 0.97

01:10:46.240 Remember, this is the same Minnesota where you had a trans terrorist go shoot people inside 0.85

01:10:53.820 of the church of the Catholic church.

01:10:56.840 I can't remember which one it is.

01:10:57.940 I'm a bad Catholic.

01:10:58.940 But I said...

01:10:59.380 Asensione.

01:11:00.160 Asensione. 0.99

01:11:00.840 So yeah, there was a trans terrorist who just lit up that church and killed two children 0.97

01:11:06.700 and injured many others, right?

01:11:08.520 So I think people were certainly in reasonable fear for their safety when Don Lemon and his

01:11:14.500 fellow Klansmen barged into that church, stormed into that church, and disrupted it the way

01:11:19.060 that they did.

01:11:19.820 They need to go to prison.

01:11:22.180 Yeah.

01:11:22.880 I mean...

01:11:23.680 Go ahead, Dave.

01:11:24.260 There is a case in the Eighth Circuit.

01:11:26.140 Eighth Circuit is tough on the government on this one because it's the Dinwiddle case.

01:11:31.760 What circuit is Minnesota?

01:11:33.420 I don't remember.

01:11:33.840 Eighth Circuit.

01:11:34.200 Eighth Circuit.

01:11:34.660 Yeah.

01:11:35.020 It's got that right.

01:11:35.640 It's Eighth.

01:11:35.960 Okay.

01:11:36.100 So within the Eighth Circuit, this Dinwiddle case from 1996, they said that there's a distinction

01:11:42.020 between physical blockades and aggressive speech.

01:11:45.020 So you got to show it's a physical barrier.

01:11:47.320 So if they were physically blocking them from leaving, the parishioners, then yes, that would

01:11:52.400 be a crime.

01:11:52.880 But that's not what it appears to be.

01:11:54.720 And that would be a factual dispute.

01:11:56.280 Also, as far as Mike, I don't know of any peaceful protesters outside of abortion clinics

01:12:01.420 who are not blocking people that were locked up and put in prison.

01:12:05.860 Okay.

01:12:06.420 And by the way, though, it's not just physical obstruction.

01:12:08.760 It's also threat of force.

01:12:11.260 And there'll be an argument about what that means and what was perceived by those audience,

01:12:16.780 by the people who are the congregants.

01:12:19.060 Because take it away from Don Lemon for a second.

01:12:21.820 That guy, William Kelly, was extremely aggressive in the faces of the churchgoers, screaming at

01:12:29.460 the top of his lungs.

01:12:30.700 I mean, screaming in their faces.

01:12:33.160 I don't know.

01:12:33.460 Do we have it?

01:12:34.040 Do we have it?

01:12:34.560 Do we have some of that here?

01:12:35.420 I think it's, is it SOT45?

01:12:39.000 Is that him in the church?

01:12:39.980 We have a bunch of William Kelly.

01:12:41.540 But the point is, you can absolutely see this guy and some of the more aggressive so-called

01:12:48.000 protesters in there reasonably putting people in fear of their safety.

01:12:52.280 And I think there'll be an argument that they did feel there was a threat of force being

01:12:55.500 used against them by this extremely aggressive, unhinged man.

01:12:58.720 Yep.

01:12:59.040 But by the way, if I could say, I think that this was a huge miscalculation by these protesters.

01:13:04.360 First off, I disagree with their tactics, but also look at what we're talking about

01:13:08.860 now.

01:13:09.080 Instead of the debate over the shooting itself of Renee Good, this has given Republicans a

01:13:14.060 good talking point.

01:13:15.380 And so I think that's a total miscalculation by this group.

01:13:18.460 And I think that they should rethink their tactics.

01:13:21.140 But also, when you talk about that standard of threat of force, it's got to be something

01:13:27.160 more than just chanting. 0.97

01:13:28.660 Like they have to chant sort of, we will burn this church or we will hurt you. 0.98

01:13:31.860 It was more than chanting, Dave. 0.96

01:13:33.780 It was more.

01:13:34.460 They went in, they infiltrated the service.

01:13:36.920 They stood up at a certain time.

01:13:38.760 They rushed to the front of the church, the most holy part, the altar, you know, where

01:13:43.220 they keep the communion.

01:13:44.440 And they turned on the congregants and started chanting at the top of their lungs, some screaming

01:13:50.220 in their faces, an unhinged guy.

01:13:53.040 And then their religion got attacked.

01:13:54.880 They got attacked on an individual basis for what they're doing there.

01:13:58.060 Why are you here?

01:13:58.960 Why aren't you out there at the facility where the feds are?

01:14:02.680 Like aggressive confrontations person by person.

01:14:05.520 That is not the same as we quietly stood up.

01:14:08.720 Here's just an example of that guy, William Kelly.

01:14:10.380 Just here's one.

01:14:11.040 As you can see, all these pretend Christians, all these comfortable white people who are living 0.99

01:14:16.960 lavish, comfortable lives while children are dragged into concentration camps.

01:14:21.800 You're living real life, nice lives with your lattes, doing absolutely nothing for your

01:14:26.460 Latino and Somali brothers and sisters. 0.99

01:14:29.140 You are a fake Christian. 1.00

01:14:30.940 Why are you not standing with your Somali and Latino communities? 0.98

01:14:34.760 Why do I not see you out at Whipple every day protesting this attack on humanity? 0.99

01:14:39.780 You're sinners. 0.99

01:14:40.780 You're pretending to be Christians. 1.00

01:14:42.420 But we know you live an easy life, don't you?

01:14:44.680 Living real comfortable while children are dragged into concentration camps.

01:14:49.080 You're all living real comfortable, aren't you?

01:14:51.800 Shame on you.

01:14:52.720 Following them as they try to leave.

01:14:53.580 Do something.

01:14:54.280 Stand with the Somalis.

01:14:55.720 Stand with the Latinos.

01:14:57.440 Quit ignoring this injustice. 0.99

01:15:00.560 And also, Dave, calling them fake Christians and sinners.

01:15:04.080 It's really not great for your side.

01:15:06.440 Oh, that's why I think they miscalculated it here.

01:15:10.000 I mean, that is a mistake, what they did.

01:15:11.980 They should not have done that.

01:15:13.500 Those tactics are going to turn people off all across the country.

01:15:16.980 But it does make it look like it's about religion.

01:15:20.420 And you can easily see an argument on that the people felt threat, that there was a threat

01:15:25.640 of force.

01:15:26.100 The guy's following them out of the church.

01:15:27.700 He's screaming at young teenagers as they try to get away from him.

01:15:31.520 It's really not that hard to prove threat of force.

01:15:33.340 It's race and religion. 0.86

01:15:34.580 But in the Dinwiddle case I mentioned, the Eighth Circuit said that aggressive speech,

01:15:40.220 and that's aggressive speech, is protected unless it crosses the line into a true threat.

01:15:44.840 I didn't see a true threat of violence there.

01:15:46.620 I saw aggressive speech.

01:15:48.580 And so I don't think they're going to be able to get a conviction here.

01:15:51.140 Can I just, can I point this out?

01:15:52.800 You may be right.

01:15:53.400 Can I point this out?

01:15:54.360 I think they've got a very good shot.

01:15:55.900 Go ahead, Mike.

01:15:56.240 This is outrageous.

01:15:57.240 Like, what Don Lemon did is the most outrageous thing you can do.

01:16:00.560 You're going into a Christian church on a Sunday and scaring the hell out of everyone, 1.00

01:16:05.560 including the kids.

01:16:06.700 And you're doing it because of their Christian faith.

01:16:08.780 And you're doing it because of their race. 1.00

01:16:10.740 And they say that very explicitly because Don Lemon is so stupid that he would actually 1.00

01:16:16.360 say this. 1.00

01:16:18.040 This is unacceptable behavior.

01:16:21.220 Not only is it bad political judgment, like Dave says, this is felonious conduct.

01:16:26.480 Remember, the Biden Justice Department put 75-year-old Christian women in prison for praying inside

01:16:34.300 of abortion clinics.

01:16:35.240 Outside of abortion clinics, they put a young black mother in prison for 41 months for praying 0.99

01:16:43.020 and obstructing an abortion clinic.

01:16:45.620 This behavior last Sunday was much more egregious than that.

01:16:50.560 It was. 0.87

01:16:51.200 Imagine if this were a mosque or a black Christian church instead of a white Christian church. 0.84

01:16:57.360 And the left would be effing outraged.

01:17:00.400 Or even Mike Davis with a MAGA hat.

01:17:03.020 Like, I would be strung up by now.

01:17:05.320 Picture the worst possible example.

01:17:08.240 And it just makes it so obvious.

01:17:09.340 You have a bunch of skinheads going into a temple or going into a mosque and getting in 0.99

01:17:14.900 the face saying, you're fake Muslims. 1.00

01:17:16.460 You're fake, following their children as they rushed to leave to get away from these nutcases, 0.99

01:17:21.600 following them right up to the side of the van as they tried to slam the door closed, 1.00

01:17:25.660 saying, you're sinners, you're fake, and attacking their religion and screaming at them 0.95

01:17:31.060 inside the church, outside the church, while their ringleader is saying, trauma is part of 0.97

01:17:36.580 the process.

01:17:37.700 Trauma is what protests are all about.

01:17:40.300 Not his, not Don Lemon's, but the children, with kids crying inside the mosque or the temple.

01:17:45.440 Are you kidding me? 0.99

01:17:46.380 This would be a fucking no-brainer. 0.99

01:17:47.900 Just because it's Christians, we have to bend over backwards to find a way out for them. 1.00

01:17:51.200 It's bullshit. 1.00

01:17:52.500 And there's a new sheriff in town, all right? 1.00

01:17:54.360 And his name is Donald Trump.

01:17:55.560 And Pam Bondi and Harmeet Dillon, they've had it.

01:17:58.440 There will be, there will be criminal charges coming, I'm sure, either today, tomorrow,

01:18:02.280 or Friday.

01:18:03.100 Be patient, MAGA, because it does take a while to cross the T's in federal court.

01:18:07.080 It is not as easy as it is in state court.

01:18:09.900 But I'm telling you, the charges are coming.

01:18:12.240 And I have to say, I don't know.

01:18:14.340 I mean, do I really know what a Minneapolis federal court judge is going to do?

01:18:17.040 I don't.

01:18:17.800 You could be right, Dave, that this judge is going to be sympathetic or read the law the

01:18:21.180 way you say it should be read and throw these charges out.

01:18:23.600 But we have to see them brought.

01:18:25.980 They must be brought.

01:18:28.320 Because MAGA has sat back too long and watched its favorite members get dragged across the

01:18:34.760 coals, starting with President Trump himself.

01:18:37.140 And they've had it.

01:18:38.180 They've had it.

01:18:39.160 I mean, if you were the state prosecutor, and you were a state prosecutor up until very,

01:18:44.180 very recently down in Florida, would you charge them with anything under state law?

01:18:47.700 You know, there is a Minnesota law that makes this illegal to go in the house of worship

01:18:52.300 and do what they did.

01:18:53.680 So I would charge that under the state law.

01:18:55.980 Not sure if it's a misdemeanor or felony under state law, but I think it's just a misdemeanor,

01:18:59.740 which is why they want the federal government to come in and impose these more serious laws. 0.63

01:19:04.040 But like I said, I think you can get them on the trespass and disorderly conduct.

01:19:08.260 And I wish those protesters, those people who claim to be pro-Palestinian protesters who

01:19:13.180 went into synagogues and protested while people were praying, I wish they would have been 1.00

01:19:16.940 charged with crimes.

01:19:18.080 I haven't seen that either.

01:19:19.700 So all this stuff is really distasteful.

01:19:22.360 But as far as whether it's a federal crime, I don't see it.

01:19:24.240 But it's more than that.

01:19:25.500 I just don't see it as a felony.

01:19:26.660 Yes, they should be.

01:19:28.500 OK, I get it.

01:19:29.440 I accept that.

01:19:30.280 I mean, I don't agree with it, but I totally accept your position as the one that will be argued.

01:19:34.360 Here's the other thing.

01:19:35.840 If I were one of those parents, Mike Davis, with the children crying next to me in those

01:19:42.320 pews, I would sue Don Lemon for intentional infliction of emotional distress.

01:19:46.100 He knew it.

01:19:47.320 He's on camera repeatedly endorsing it.

01:19:50.180 We played the bit yesterday of him outside the church as they're fleeing, saying trauma

01:19:55.300 is part of the process.

01:19:56.720 Trauma is part of protests.

01:19:58.360 Sorry, not his.

01:19:59.860 The children fleeing.

01:20:01.100 He was enjoying it.

01:20:01.980 But here's SOP 30.

01:20:04.460 Is it 30?

01:20:05.280 Hold on.

01:20:05.560 No, no.

01:20:05.880 Sorry, I think.

01:20:06.680 Yeah, yeah, it's 30.

01:20:07.380 Here's SOP 30.

01:20:08.100 Watch this.

01:20:09.060 This is the beginning of what's going to happen here.

01:20:11.120 When you violate people's due process, when you pull people off the street and you start

01:20:15.460 dragging them and hurting them and not abiding by the Constitution, when you start doing

01:20:21.920 all of that, people get upset and angry.

01:20:24.140 And if you remember what the civil rights movement was about, the civil rights movement was about

01:20:30.640 these very kinds of protests.

01:20:33.260 And for some reason, in our modern era, people think that in order to have protests, you've

01:20:37.760 got to be cordoned off to a certain area and what time you can protest.

01:20:45.940 There's nothing in the Constitution that tells you what time you can protest.

01:20:51.860 You can protest at any time.

01:20:52.980 That's the whole point of it, is to disrupt, to make uncomfortable.

01:20:56.260 And that's what they're doing.

01:20:57.740 And that's what I believe when I say everyone has to be willing to sacrifice something.

01:21:01.920 You have to make people uncomfortable in these times.

01:21:04.580 If you see how uncomfortable people, uncomfortably, and how harsh people are being treated on the

01:21:10.740 streets, you have to be willing to go into places and disrupt and make people uncomfortable.

01:21:16.520 That is what this country is about.

01:21:21.140 Okay, all of that's going to be used against him in the criminal case.

01:21:23.880 All of it, Mike Davis.

01:21:24.900 But I think you have a strong case if you're a parent of one of those crying children,

01:21:28.300 or if you yourself are traumatized on the heels of a sencion, where these kids,

01:21:32.760 they don't know what hands up, don't shoot is.

01:21:34.180 They have no idea who Michael Brown was, or Ferguson, Missouri, or how that's a lie.

01:21:37.940 All they see is a bunch of strangers hijack their Sunday service and start screaming about

01:21:43.300 shooting and hands up.

01:21:45.020 That's what these kids do. 1.00

01:21:46.380 Then they see their friends trying to flee and getting chased by fucking nutcases like 1.00

01:21:51.000 William Kelly. 1.00

01:21:52.100 And that's what they went through.

01:21:53.640 And so I doubt William Kelly has two nickels to rub together in between his ears or otherwise.

01:21:58.200 But Don Lemon does.

01:21:59.040 And I would 100% sue him civilly for intentional infliction.

01:22:04.980 What do you think?

01:22:05.660 Absolutely.

01:22:06.360 I watched that with Don Lemon, and he makes my blood boil. 1.00

01:22:11.160 That guy is a fucking monster. 1.00

01:22:13.520 Not only should he be put in federal prison for many, many years, he should be bankrupted, 1.00

01:22:19.300 like you said, Megan, for intentional infliction of emotional distress.

01:22:22.940 There's also a federal civil cause of action under our federal civil rights statutes when

01:22:29.840 you go after people, when you target people like Don Lemon and his fellow Klansmen did there

01:22:35.200 because of their Christian faith and because of their white race.

01:22:40.700 There needs to be no mercy for Don Lemon because he has shown zero remorse.

01:22:46.580 Like you said, he's tripling and quadrupling down on his felonious misconduct. 1.00

01:22:52.660 He's an asshole, and he needs to go to prison. 1.00

01:22:55.100 He needs to be bankrupted. 1.00

01:22:56.960 Yeah.

01:22:57.580 I look forward to watching that process play out.

01:22:59.540 All right.

01:22:59.680 We have more to discuss.

01:23:00.480 We've got to get into Busfield.

01:23:01.560 Quick break.

01:23:02.420 Then we'll do that.

01:23:03.140 Don't go away.

01:23:03.860 Mike and Dave, stay with me.

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01:24:01.500 Dave Ehrenberg and Mike Davis are back with me now.

01:24:08.240 So we've got to talk about what happened in the Timothy Busfield bail hearing yesterday,

01:24:12.860 where he was granted bail and was not held in state custody pending his trial on charges

01:24:19.640 of alleged child abuse, alleged child molestation.

01:24:22.500 Two little boys, ages seven at the time, 11 today, alleged, twin brothers, alleged that

01:24:29.540 he molested them, that he fondled one outside of his clothing and that with the other one, 0.97

01:24:36.140 it was less of a fondling, more of like inappropriate touching, but one explicitly having his private 0.93

01:24:42.020 genitalia touched, he claims, by Timothy Busfield, who was the kid's director on this show, The 0.94

01:24:48.520 House Cleaner, I think it was called.

01:24:50.380 In any event, he's denied the charges.

01:24:53.640 And then when the arrest warrant was issued for him on last Friday out of New Mexico, he

01:24:59.800 took a total of five days.

01:25:01.380 He didn't turn himself in Albuquerque, New Mexico until Tuesday.

01:25:05.380 And now we know that he was driving cross country and he was working with a lawyer to take what

01:25:10.480 they say is a legit polygraph that he says he passed, sit with a sexual assault evaluator

01:25:16.240 to assess just how threatening he may or may not be to children, and issue a statement on camera

01:25:21.660 to TMZ, which we have already addressed as having signs of deception, per Phil Houston,

01:25:26.380 the human lie detector and CIA agent of 25 years who invented their deception detection methods.

01:25:33.780 Now, we said at the time we had not heard his defense, and now we're getting a look at it,

01:25:38.780 because his lawyers came in both guns blazing to try to get him bail.

01:25:43.020 And the most shocking allegation, pretty much everything they alleged in his defense,

01:25:48.000 we kind of knew, but we did not know that the parents of the two boys are a couple of,

01:25:55.900 as the defense lawyers, I'm sorry, adequately said, con men.

01:26:00.320 The mother and the father both appear to be serial fraudsters, which, let's face it,

01:26:07.520 changes the outlook of this case, changes the likely outcome,

01:26:10.660 and changes how we need to view the allegations themselves.

01:26:14.640 I'm going to give you guys just a little bit from the defendant's opposition to the state's

01:26:20.260 motion to hold Busfield without bail.

01:26:22.420 They say the dad has been, he's a former attorney who was convicted of federal conspiracy and wire

01:26:29.960 fraud and was later disbarred following the prosecution for a multi-million dollar scheme

01:26:35.260 in which he used his law license to deceive vulnerable victims for profit.

01:26:40.060 He pleaded guilty, so there's no question he did it, to conspiracy to commit wire fraud arising from

01:26:44.680 a mortgage modification enterprise that defrauded more than 1,500 homeowners of approximately $6 million.

01:26:50.780 It happened, I believe, during COVID, where he was taking advantage of vulnerable people.

01:26:55.460 This is as an officer of the court, where he has a duty to, you know, be, an extra duty to be ethical and honest.

01:27:01.680 The children's mother, they write, has an equally disturbing history.

01:27:05.840 She has had multiple civil judgments entered against her, and not just civil judgments like you had a car accident

01:27:10.900 and, you know, whatever, or like you punched somebody.

01:27:14.720 It's judgments that relate to her honesty.

01:27:18.100 So it's all, like, potential, it's all very relevant for fraudulent and dishonest behavior.

01:27:24.860 She was sued in 2011 by somebody to whom she sold her Bentley for $91,000.

01:27:33.000 The guy took possession of the Bentley, but she never transferred him the actual title.

01:27:37.620 And then she had the vehicle unlawfully repossessed and then traded the Bentley in and got a Porsche

01:27:44.940 instead, which she registered in her mother's name.

01:27:47.900 Then a complaint came against her, and apparently they are alleging that there was a judgment against her.

01:27:54.380 And then in addition, there were judgments against her for over $400,000 for unpaid gambling debts

01:28:01.320 in which she allegedly wrote bad checks to MGM Grand in one other casino trying to pay for it. 0.99

01:28:08.300 But the checks were bad.

01:28:09.900 So, I mean, this is like, if all this is true, it's alleged by Busfield in his response.

01:28:14.660 It was stated in court yesterday.

01:28:16.640 The prosecutor did not take it on at all, saying it's not true.

01:28:20.220 These are lies.

01:28:21.020 So it's not a case of mistaken identity from the look of it.

01:28:24.280 This is deeply problematic.

01:28:26.080 Now, I don't know, Dave, I'm going to start with you on this because, again,

01:28:28.820 you're just coming off of yours as a state prosecutor.

01:28:32.080 So you would be, you know, the guy saddled with this revelation of your two minor plaintiffs in a child sex abuse case.

01:28:41.180 It's not like the children have been found guilty of fraud.

01:28:45.260 I don't know that it even gets admitted, to be honest, right?

01:28:49.020 Because it's like the whole defense is going to be the children were coached by the parents.

01:28:53.160 The initial statements that they gave to an investigator were that they weren't molested.

01:28:57.800 Then a year later, it changed to, yes, I was molested. 0.81

01:29:01.220 And they're going to say that that's because of these con man parents. 0.80

01:29:04.960 But is it admissible when the parents are fraudsters and the children are alleging sex abuse?

01:29:10.500 I think, Megan, for the defense, they're going to lean into the motive here for the kids to lie at the behest of their parents.

01:29:20.180 Because there's also a report during the internal investigation that the mother was found to have said something to the effect of if the twins did not get their contract renewed for the show, that she would get Timothy Busfield.

01:29:35.140 And so, yeah, she was going to get her revenge on him.

01:29:37.960 Right.

01:29:38.240 So in that sense, her past and a history of fraud and shakedown schemes and things like that could be relevant here.

01:29:46.100 So the judge is more lenient to allow the defense to pursue motive than they would to allow the prosecution to expose prior bad facts about the defense.

01:29:57.120 So that's why I think that it could come in, because that's how you have a fair trial.

01:30:02.500 You have to flush out whether there was a motive to lie, especially because these kids are minors.

01:30:06.720 And they originally said to investigators that there was no inappropriate touching and then later changed their story.

01:30:12.800 They played that on his defense lawyer, played audio of the boys initially denying that Busfield had inappropriately touched them.

01:30:26.520 Here it is in SOT 50.

01:30:28.900 And you know what's right and wrong, right?

01:30:31.460 You know, where people can't touch, where people can't.

01:30:34.300 Yeah, you know that, right?

01:30:36.180 Does Tim ever do that?

01:30:38.480 No, he's never touched me.

01:30:40.440 Never touched you?

01:30:41.460 Yeah.

01:30:42.800 In the, in like, you know, your private areas, right?

01:30:50.420 Never did that?

01:30:51.320 Never.

01:30:53.120 Okay.

01:30:56.660 Let's go on, Your Honor, to defense exhibit AA.

01:31:01.340 This is five minutes later, separate, the boys were separated.

01:31:06.660 The same, the same police officer, this time speaking to SL.

01:31:11.100 Out of the presence of his brother.

01:31:13.680 So, you know what's right and wrong, right?

01:31:17.660 Yeah.

01:31:18.060 You don't know when he could touch your private areas?

01:31:20.960 Yeah, but he doesn't touch them.

01:31:23.480 Doesn't touch your private parts?

01:31:24.840 Okay.

01:31:28.000 That's not, Your Honor, a failure to disclose.

01:31:30.260 That's an express denial.

01:31:34.580 That's, Busfield's a defense attorney, Mike.

01:31:36.500 But the problem, the problem there is, of course, that little kids who are molested often do an express denial when they're first asked about it.

01:31:45.280 There's a lot of shame associated with it.

01:31:47.460 So, I mean, that's not as probing as, like, a lay witness might think.

01:31:52.160 Like, it is very frequent that an abuse victim initially denies it.

01:31:56.340 But the parent's background, as somebody who, I think, Timothy Busfield is a creep, an absolute creep.

01:32:01.740 And we've learned he's even more creepy than we knew because we learned about two other females who have come forward complaining about him at yesterday's hearing.

01:32:09.880 But that doesn't necessarily mean he's a child molester.

01:32:12.240 So we really do need to look at the credibility.

01:32:14.720 I mean, yes, of the boys, but they're little ones, you know.

01:32:17.680 But these parents, is it relevant?

01:32:19.220 Yes, I mean, I would say this.

01:32:22.440 Look, I've had friends who are sexually abused as kids, and it destroys them for the rest of their lives. 0.92

01:32:29.660 There's nothing worse you can do than sexually abuse a kid. 0.94

01:32:33.260 And I personally think you should bring back medieval punishment for the people who sexually abuse kids. 0.99

01:32:39.040 I know the Supreme Court says we can't have the death penalty anymore for child rape.

01:32:43.320 I think the Supreme Court should reverse that now that Justice Kennedy is no longer on the Supreme Court. 0.95

01:32:47.740 I think these people should be brutally and publicly executed to people who abuse kids.

01:32:52.940 But we also have the presumption of innocence. 0.97

01:32:56.300 And we also have sexual abuse allegations that have been weaponized for political or financial reasons many times in our past. 0.96

01:33:05.940 I saw this when I ran Justice Kavanaugh's Supreme Court hearing as the chief counsel for nominations when six bullshit allegations were brought against Justice Kavanaugh. 0.98

01:33:17.220 So I am very leery about these allegations, particularly when you have these shady-ass parents who look like they have a financial motive. 0.96

01:33:27.140 It looks like it was a shakedown here that they, when they, what Dave just said, when they said if they continue this contract, these allegations go away. 0.97

01:33:37.100 If you're a parent and your kids are sexually abused, you don't give a damn about some contract.

01:33:41.500 You want to make sure that someone who's sexually abusing the kids are arrested and held accountable.

01:33:48.220 Well, they're saying they didn't know at the time that the kids were employed by the show that the parents did not know.

01:33:53.020 The kids went to, they got examined by a doctor.

01:33:58.300 The doctor saw evidence of grooming.

01:34:00.960 The doctor called in to the police.

01:34:03.380 The police interviewed the children.

01:34:04.880 They denied it.

01:34:05.580 You heard that.

01:34:06.780 But then the parents put the children into therapy and the therapist, a year later, now the other side says it was right after Warner Brothers denied their claim and did an independent investigation and said, guess what?

01:34:17.080 You're not getting anything.

01:34:18.400 You're not getting any money.

01:34:19.440 But a year later, the boys said to the therapist that they were touched.

01:34:22.720 The therapist, who would typically have an ethical obligation to mention if she thought the boys had been coached by the parents, did not say that.

01:34:30.060 The prosecution was quick to point that out.

01:34:32.040 The prosecutors would, too, have an obligation to say if they thought the boys were groomed by the parents or were not groomed, manipulated by the parents into saying that they'd been touched when they hadn't been.

01:34:42.700 And obviously, the prosecution believes these boys.

01:34:46.020 But, yeah, it's the timing of it.

01:34:48.720 It's not ideal.

01:34:49.480 And, Dave, the reality is in a sexual abuse case like this involving children, they're very hard to make anyway.

01:34:56.060 There's almost never a witness.

01:34:57.300 There's not a witness here.

01:34:58.780 Now the story has changed because the boys initially in the Warner Brothers investigation appear to have said that this happened when it was just Busfield in the room with them.

01:35:08.340 But they pointed out the defense did.

01:35:10.100 I didn't hear the prosecution respond to this exactly.

01:35:12.600 Yesterday they pointed out, oh, no, now it's the room was filled.

01:35:16.800 No, there were lots of people there, but he just managed to sort of sneak it in.

01:35:19.720 But it's like the prosecutor claimed, oh, we never said that nobody was in the room.

01:35:23.720 But the defense said, yes, they did.

01:35:24.920 And they read a transcript of the Warner Brothers investigation where they claimed initially that nobody else had been in the room.

01:35:29.600 All these contradictions undermine their credibility.

01:35:32.480 Right.

01:35:32.680 Witnesses are really powerful here.

01:35:34.620 Normally it's a he said, they said.

01:35:36.240 But here you've had the show's director of photography, a guy named Alan Caudillo, who testified that the children were never left alone with adults on the set.

01:35:45.480 And he also said that it was the parents who frequently encouraged the children to hug the adults.

01:35:51.440 So all of that is relevant.

01:35:53.640 And that the adults felt uncomfortable with it.

01:35:55.600 Like Alan testified.

01:35:56.820 I didn't I didn't appreciate that.

01:35:58.320 I didn't want some guy sending a seven year old over to hug me when clearly the kid didn't want to do it.

01:36:03.040 Right. But again, that kind of suggests what was his father up to?

01:36:07.040 Was he trying to get like some sort of lay of the foundation for a claim that like people on this set were inappropriate?

01:36:15.420 Right. Well, that's why these cases are so hard.

01:36:17.540 You're dealing with minors.

01:36:18.560 You're dealing with repressed memories and you're dealing with contradictory statements.

01:36:23.460 So they're naturally tough to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.

01:36:26.880 And then you add the specter of the defendants past where it could go either way.

01:36:33.460 Right. Because he's been accused of misconduct with teenagers in the past.

01:36:38.700 And yet perhaps you could argue the parents knew about that and knew this was the weak spot for him.

01:36:45.200 And when they said, apparently, according to a witness, that they were going to get him if their kids did not get renewed and then they didn't get renewed.

01:36:52.460 And perhaps that's the way they got him because they knew about his past allegations against him.

01:36:56.480 So this is a convoluted mess right now.

01:36:58.760 That's why the judge allowed the defendant to go home instead of staying in jail pretrial.

01:37:03.960 And that's why it's going to be hard to convict him beyond a reasonable doubt.

01:37:08.300 I have to say, I would have let him go home, too.

01:37:10.320 I just feel like now having heard the defense, I'm not persuaded it didn't happen.

01:37:15.180 I'm really not because I don't impugn the children because of their parents' fraud.

01:37:20.860 But there's enough defense evidence that this case suggesting this case could go away or certainly result in a not guilty that I don't think it's fair to hold him in jail pending trial.

01:37:30.940 He's not allowed to have any contact with children.

01:37:32.820 But, you know, there's there is more to the story, Mike, because Timothy Busfield got on the phone with the police on November 3rd.

01:37:43.260 Melissa Gilbert was on the phone and admitted that he would playfully tickle the boys on set.

01:37:51.220 And also, after admitting that and admitting that they had taken the children out to dinner and given them Christmas gifts, then said, I don't remember these boys.

01:38:02.100 Now, he directed them for two and a half years.

01:38:04.940 So that's why I referenced earlier he did what you're not supposed to do, right, which is talk to the cops.

01:38:10.460 Even if you're innocent, don't talk to the cops.

01:38:12.380 I think most defense lawyers say, keep your mouth shut.

01:38:14.300 I'll do your talking for you.

01:38:15.280 But he did do those things, according to the police.

01:38:19.540 And then he looked guilty as hell in his TMZ video.

01:38:23.360 I mean, he just reeked of dishonesty to me and to Phil Houston's AI tool, which is accurate 97 percent of the time in detecting lies.

01:38:33.680 And then we're going to take a quick break.

01:38:35.620 But on the back end, we'll talk about the serial abuse of teenage girls, which is not, of course, the same as a seven year old boy.

01:38:43.980 But it is a pattern of abuse. 0.97

01:38:46.140 So I don't want to be too harsh on these children just because the parents appear to be absolute losers. 0.91

01:38:54.100 Yeah, I mean, you're exactly right. 0.99

01:38:57.100 This is a tough case because you have shady ass parents. 0.99

01:39:01.900 You have a story that's changed, but you have a guy who appears to be a creep. 0.97

01:39:06.780 So this again, there's a presumption of innocence in this country.

01:39:12.020 This man, like every other criminal defendant, deserves the presumption of innocence.

01:39:19.160 But this is a very, very messy case.

01:39:23.300 And the prosecutor tried to address, you know, the business about the parents' backgrounds just by saying the parents have troubles, but we can't impute those to the boys.

01:39:35.040 I mean, that was really her defense, which is probably the only defense you can go with.

01:39:37.980 But it's amazing to me.

01:39:39.640 I mean, you tell me, Dave, in the next 30 seconds, would the prosecutor have known about the parents' history at the time they brought these charges?

01:39:48.000 Not necessarily.

01:39:49.040 That's why the defense hires their own investigators.

01:39:51.540 And they probably found that out after the fact.

01:39:54.140 So I don't blame prosecutors for moving full speed ahead on this.

01:39:58.240 I would, too.

01:39:58.800 But then when you find this out, you're like, oh, boy, that's not something naturally you would find out on your own until you did more digging.

01:40:06.080 If you were in this position and you found that out after you filed, what would you do?

01:40:09.980 I would question the case.

01:40:11.440 I would make sure I would look up, get all the discovery I could.

01:40:15.320 And if I believe that because of this and other things that I could not get a conviction beyond a reasonable doubt, I wouldn't file the case or I would dismiss it.

01:40:24.360 OK, stand by.

01:40:25.400 There's another piece to talk about right after this break.

01:40:27.360 Don't go away.

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01:42:26.340 Hey everyone, it's me, Megyn Kelly.

01:42:30.580 I've got some exciting news.

01:42:32.780 I now have my very own channel on Sirius XM.

01:42:35.940 It's called the Megyn Kelly Channel, and it is where you will hear the truth, 0.76

01:42:39.020 unfiltered, with no agenda, and no apologies.

01:42:42.080 Along with the Megyn Kelly Show, you're going to hear from people like

01:42:44.340 Mark Halperin, Link Lauren, Maureen Callahan, Emily Jashinsky, Jesse Kelly,

01:42:48.920 Real Clear Politics, and many more.

01:42:51.400 It's bold, no BS news.

01:42:53.540 Only on the Megyn Kelly Channel, Sirius XM 111, and on the Sirius XM app.

01:43:02.580 Back with me now, Dave Ehrenberg, host of MK True Crime,

01:43:05.800 and Mike Davis, founder of the Article 3 Project.

01:43:08.560 I do want to offer what the prosecutor was saying, because I want to be fair to these

01:43:15.680 two young boys.

01:43:16.740 She pointed out that it was November 2024 when the doctor first raised concerns of abuse.

01:43:24.560 What we know from the police complaint is that the parents had heard that Timothy Busfield had

01:43:30.480 a history of being inappropriate with underaged women, and that prompted them to start asking

01:43:38.840 questions, which eventually brought them into the medical center with their boys.

01:43:43.600 The doctor interviewed the boys, and the doctor, based on his interview with the boys,

01:43:48.160 said they need to be evaluated for potential child sexual abuse.

01:43:52.840 The police interviewed them.

01:43:54.380 You heard the excerpts of the boys saying, no, he didn't touch me.

01:43:57.240 And then I gave the chronology of what happened after there.

01:44:01.160 They've started getting therapy.

01:44:02.540 The therapist said the one boy allegedly was having nightmares.

01:44:05.600 It came out that court hearing yesterday that allegedly, according to the defense,

01:44:10.040 the boy had told the therapist he was just waking up several times in the middle of the

01:44:14.380 night because he was hot or cold, I think hot.

01:44:17.700 And the father was the one who said he's having nightmares.

01:44:20.660 So the defense is suggesting the dad's trying to like layer up the kid's injuries.

01:44:24.680 And the suggestion is that they're fake.

01:44:27.460 I don't know what's true.

01:44:30.140 But in any event, the contact with the therapist went on.

01:44:32.740 And ultimately, the therapist said that the boys changed their story and that the one said

01:44:37.320 he had been physically touched, you know, inappropriately, his genitals had been touched

01:44:42.800 by Timothy Busfield.

01:44:43.720 And the other brother did not go that far, which, you know, I did think the prosecutor

01:44:48.380 raised several times yesterday that that's actually inures to their benefit.

01:44:51.120 If this is just some money grab, two is better than one.

01:44:53.880 You get paid higher if both boys have been molested.

01:44:56.960 And they did not allege that.

01:44:58.900 The one boy whose name begins with a V said it didn't go that far.

01:45:03.080 The one boy whose name begins with an S said, indeed, it did. 1.00

01:45:06.620 And that Timothy Busfield molested him by touching, forgive me, his penis and his bottom. 0.99

01:45:14.520 They went on to say it's normal for children to deny it. 0.98

01:45:18.060 And the questions asked, she said, by that first police officer did not comply with best

01:45:23.080 practices.

01:45:24.520 She said the kids continue to show signs of abuse and continue to disclose they should

01:45:30.220 not be tarred with their parents' past.

01:45:31.620 She said it's very difficult to coach children at that age.

01:45:34.600 And even though they gave, even though it's, it's, it's tough to, to coach children, she

01:45:41.380 said they, they managed to actually come out and tell their stories and they gave details.

01:45:46.500 And then she points to, oh, then she says the therapists know about coaching.

01:45:50.880 She would have put that in her note.

01:45:52.400 She didn't.

01:45:53.040 Same with the doctor.

01:45:53.740 Doctors know about coaching.

01:45:54.860 He would have put that in his note.

01:45:56.100 These are people who know these boys who have spent many hours with them in the case of the

01:45:59.700 therapist.

01:46:00.140 They did not sense coaching.

01:46:01.740 They thought that these were real complaints.

01:46:03.900 And then she got into, um, defendant's admission.

01:46:09.320 Timothy Busfield admitted, and I pulled back up the complete, the police complaint.

01:46:13.820 Um, according to the police, he admitted the following.

01:46:17.500 He writes, I did ask Timothy if he ever had any physical contact with these boys and if he

01:46:21.200 ever picked them up and tickled them.

01:46:23.740 Timothy said it was highly likely that he would have.

01:46:27.140 Timothy said it was a playful environment like he wanted.

01:46:29.380 I'm sorry, right there.

01:46:30.940 This is why I'm not ready to completely rule him out despite these weird parents.

01:46:35.060 I know, I know if I ever said to you, Dave Ehrenberg, did you ever pick up somebody else's

01:46:40.660 boy in a professional setting and tickle him?

01:46:44.700 You easily would say, hell no.

01:46:48.400 Every man knows not to do that, whether he's directing them in a film or not.

01:46:53.260 It's a very strange answer.

01:46:55.120 Can we agree on that?

01:46:55.980 Yes, he's 68 years old, so he's a little different generation than, but I don't know

01:47:00.440 anyone who just does that normally, um, and anyone who did, maybe that was like three generations

01:47:04.640 prior where that was okay.

01:47:07.160 It's not okay.

01:47:08.000 It hasn't been okay for a long time.

01:47:09.840 Also, it is true that when he was accused of improper conduct, they were not children,

01:47:15.180 they were teenagers, but he did pay out $150,000 to a 17-year-old girl, uh, it was relating

01:47:23.180 to costs and, uh, fees after an unsuccessful countersuit, but there is some past conduct

01:47:30.580 here that could become relevant in a trial where they could bring it up as what's called

01:47:35.160 Williams rule in Florida.

01:47:36.640 Every state has it where it doesn't have to be a conviction.

01:47:38.620 It just can be if it's like his MO, a pattern of conduct.

01:47:43.000 And so that's where it could come back to hurt him.

01:47:46.020 So it is a messy case, Megan, but our conversation here by no means means that he is not guilty

01:47:52.600 of this.

01:47:53.020 We just don't know.

01:47:54.000 And the fact that it's messy makes it harder for prosecutors.

01:47:57.220 Yeah.

01:47:57.760 I mean, well, my, my obligation as a reporter is to bring the audience updated information

01:48:01.940 when I get it.

01:48:02.540 And this is certainly worth them considering in deciding what they think of this case.

01:48:06.540 Here's the other thing from the police affidavit.

01:48:08.240 He says, Timothy then stated, I don't remember those boys.

01:48:12.280 No, I don't.

01:48:13.600 I don't actually.

01:48:14.600 I don't remember if it happened.

01:48:17.120 I don't remember overtly tickling the boys ever, but it wouldn't be uncommon for me.

01:48:21.640 So now he's gone from, he's directed them in his show for two and a half years and

01:48:25.920 had social engagements with them.

01:48:27.460 And Melissa's bought them presents too.

01:48:29.640 And I probably did.

01:48:30.740 It's highly likely that I tickled them too.

01:48:32.840 I don't remember them.

01:48:34.060 What, like what boys?

01:48:35.760 Okay.

01:48:36.380 That too is highly sketchy.

01:48:38.440 And then I do want to get into the other alleged incidents of abuse and tell me what you think,

01:48:44.860 Mike Davis, because what we learned is that Mike mentions there was a 17 year old girl

01:48:50.400 who accused him, who accused him of molesting her physically and sexually in some way.

01:48:58.640 And she sued him and he countersued, he sued her law firm because they were trying to get

01:49:05.520 $150,000 in fees and costs.

01:49:07.720 And he lost, he said that they had defamed him and he lost that defamation claim.

01:49:12.580 He did have to pay the money and he settled with a 17 year old.

01:49:16.560 Okay.

01:49:17.060 We don't really know much about that.

01:49:19.540 Maybe it was a money grab.

01:49:20.440 I don't know.

01:49:21.720 Then there was a 28 year old who alleges that they went out to a movie together and that

01:49:26.880 in the movie theater, he took what was a kiss and turned it into a physical sexual assault, 0.97

01:49:33.780 shoving his hands down her pants, grabbing her genitals. 0.98

01:49:36.880 She was like squirming to get away from him. 1.00

01:49:39.540 She wanted nothing to do with him to the point where she went to the police.

01:49:43.880 Okay.

01:49:44.180 The police said, we can't really make anything out of this.

01:49:46.720 Cause it's like, he said, she said, and you were on a date with him, something to that

01:49:49.560 effect.

01:49:50.580 That's, that's a lot.

01:49:51.660 I mean, I don't like the average guy doesn't have somebody turning like a movie kiss into

01:49:56.080 something that results in a phone call to the cops, but there's that one.

01:49:59.760 Then there is, um, this other report that, that they read.

01:50:06.340 There are two other reports.

01:50:07.280 One is like a, eh, from an assistant who worked for both Melissa and Timothy recently that 0.52

01:50:12.960 suggests he's kind of a douche bag.

01:50:15.100 But then there was a new one by name, by an actress named Claudia Christian, who is out 0.89

01:50:20.880 there.

01:50:21.140 Actually, I Googled her.

01:50:21.900 And if you look at her face, she's, she looks kind of familiar.

01:50:24.140 I think she's a fairly successful like character actress, um, who back in 1991, I think it was,

01:50:31.440 cause that's when they started a movie together.

01:50:32.720 She and Timothy Busfield were working together, alleges that when she was 16, he, he came

01:50:39.380 for her too.

01:50:40.660 Here's the prosecutor describing those other two incidents, SOT 48.

01:50:47.180 State's exhibit five is from the defendant and his wife's personal assistant.

01:50:54.700 They worked, um, I believe through the, um, May of 2017 until 2019.

01:51:02.640 And she, um, mostly describes how the defendant was inappropriate, intimidating, um, that there

01:51:13.160 was a lot of, you know, this position of authority that we've kind of seen play out in this case

01:51:18.380 case and all of the other victims that have come forward, um, and had made comments to

01:51:26.040 her about, um, the way she acted and that he might have a crush on her if, if she continues 0.90

01:51:33.940 that behavior.

01:51:35.280 Um, so there was concerns of inappropriate conduct with her as well.

01:51:41.940 State six, Claudia Christian, who is an actress.

01:51:50.920 She has reported that when they were filming the strays, the defendant and her, she was already

01:51:58.560 casted as an actress and during, during the show, they were running lines, which was common

01:52:07.580 and they went to his trailer.

01:52:10.680 She stated that once she got there, he was alone.

01:52:16.300 And after, almost immediately after she entered his trailer, he forcibly grabbed her and threw 0.98

01:52:22.880 her against the wall, um, and started kissing her and he had an erection. 0.99

01:52:28.900 Okay. 0.83

01:52:29.620 So that's Claudia, um, Christian who went on the record, apparently with the prosecutor

01:52:34.960 would have been 1991 by my math.

01:52:36.920 She would have been 26 when that happened to her.

01:52:39.600 So we've got a 28 year old on a date.

01:52:41.140 We've got a 26 year old on set with him.

01:52:43.060 We've got a 17 year old who, uh, he accused of defaming him when she accused him.

01:52:48.440 And instead he had to settle that case and pay her lawyers $150,000.

01:52:52.800 And then there's a 16 year old girl who's come forward as well.

01:52:56.880 She was 16 when this happened to her, who claims he molested her when she was auditioning

01:53:03.100 at his children's theater.

01:53:05.260 Um, and it was so significant.

01:53:08.980 Hold on a second.

01:53:09.880 I have the allegations here.

01:53:11.760 Um, in a seven page filing, New Mexico, New Mexico prosecutor said the law enforcement,

01:53:16.600 they received a report Tuesday from the, from her father who said Busfield kissed his 16 year

01:53:21.600 old daughter and touched her intimate parts several years ago.

01:53:25.280 And that when the father went to him, Busfield quote begged the family to hold off and reporting

01:53:30.400 the alleged misconduct, uh, to the police.

01:53:33.920 If Busfield got therapy, uh, the father was himself a therapist and so agreed to that.

01:53:39.580 So that's a 16 year old girl whose dad is on the record.

01:53:42.120 It's a 17 year old girl who got a settlement and her lawyers did too. 0.72

01:53:45.500 It's a 28 year old girl who said she was on a date.

01:53:48.000 This happened to her in a movie theater. 0.91

01:53:49.500 And then there is Claudia Christian, who I guess would have been 26 when she says she

01:53:55.160 went into his trailer.

01:53:56.120 He molested her through her against the wall and started grabbing her. 1.00

01:54:00.120 Okay.

01:54:00.560 That's four, um, payouts in a couple of them, one case and agreed therapy that he got.

01:54:08.580 And now we have these boys.

01:54:10.800 So all of this look has me, I got the same questions you guys have about these parents,

01:54:16.100 but Timothy Busfield is a creep and Melissa Gilbert is gross too, because this whole thing

01:54:22.280 started it for me because she was out there trying to suggest that I downplayed the abuse 1.00

01:54:26.680 of women because I was making the distinction about whether Jeffrey Epstein technically legally

01:54:32.080 qualified as a pedophile. 0.72

01:54:33.600 If his thing was 15 year olds versus if it were, you know, five year olds and legally that

01:54:39.180 definition only applies to an attraction to prepubescent girls. 0.98

01:54:42.660 Meanwhile, she knows full well, her husband was out there allegedly molesting a 16 year

01:54:49.680 old, a 17 year old, a 26 year old, a 28 year old.

01:54:54.020 And she's out there trying to cloak herself in this sort of sort of moral, um, you know,

01:54:59.380 glory, uh, when she knows full well that he's done all those things, or at least settled

01:55:04.440 the cases.

01:55:04.840 And on top of that, when she's doing it knew he'd been accused by these seven year old

01:55:08.920 boys, they're now 11, but the abuse allegedly happened between seven and nine. 0.94

01:55:12.520 All of it is speaks to her and her husband's disgusting hypocrisy, but it also could be

01:55:17.820 pattern evidence, Mike Davis, that potentially could get admitted some of those claims. 0.84

01:55:22.260 Yeah.

01:55:22.780 I mean, generally under our criminal procedures, you could not bring in propensity evidence,

01:55:28.220 meaning, uh, you can't, if someone robs a bank, you can't bring in prior bank robberies

01:55:34.520 to show that they are likely to, or they have a disposition to rob banks.

01:55:39.220 That is generally not permitted.

01:55:40.600 But as Dave talked about, you have MO evidence or modus operandi evidence.

01:55:45.060 If you show that you rob banks wearing a clown outfit, uh, you can bring that in generally

01:55:51.660 under MO evidence.

01:55:52.640 That's not propensity evidence.

01:55:53.860 That shows that's how you go about doing these bank robberies.

01:55:58.040 That's, uh, and so it's, uh, it shows evidence that you committed this bank robbery.

01:56:02.420 So the distinction between propensity and MO evidence generally with sex crimes.

01:56:07.360 And I, I think this would apply in New Mexico.

01:56:10.140 I'm not licensed in New Mexico, but I, I, I think the same rule applies in New Mexico with

01:56:15.060 sex crimes, you can bring in propensity evidence.

01:56:17.660 Uh, so, uh, this would all get admitted or it probably would get admitted.

01:56:22.940 It's if, uh, if this, if this case goes to trial and it would be very damning for him

01:56:27.760 if the jury heard this evidence.

01:56:30.380 Megan, this is the key to the case.

01:56:32.500 It's whether you can bring in that MO evidence, the prior bad acts.

01:56:36.460 It does not bode well for the prosecution.

01:56:39.020 When you look at the words from judge Murphy, when he ordered Busfield's release, if you look

01:56:43.760 at his order, he said this, there is no evidence of a pattern of criminal conduct.

01:56:50.280 There are no similar allegations involving children in his past.

01:56:55.420 So that tells me at least for now that the judge is skeptical of the prosecution's pattern

01:57:00.360 argument that he is separating.

01:57:02.720 But also he did say, I mean, I listened to the whole hearing and he, what he said was

01:57:06.100 that have been tested in a legal forum.

01:57:09.240 Like he he's talking about no one's no criminal convictions with respect to these other women.

01:57:13.060 Well, if he was only talking about convictions, then, then that is good for the prosecution

01:57:18.480 because you don't have to have a conviction to bring in past bad acts.

01:57:22.460 But it did seem like he was differentiating as you did in that whole Epstein controversy

01:57:27.840 between a young child, a seven year old and a, in this case, a 17 or 16 year old.

01:57:34.540 So yeah.

01:57:35.640 Oh, Doug and I were laughing because the irony of, of Melissa Gilbert's attack on me is she

01:57:41.000 should have been leaning into that defense.

01:57:42.500 She should have been like, yeah, there's a big difference between the teenagers and the, 0.91

01:57:46.080 and the young ones, because of course that's what her lawyers are going to argue on Timothy

01:57:50.360 Busfield's behalf and trying to keep all this evidence of him molesting teenagers and women

01:57:55.160 in their twenties out, out of the jury's purview.

01:57:58.220 Uh, but unlike Timothy Busfield, I actually do think there's a serious problem in molesting

01:58:03.900 15 year olds.

01:58:04.760 I just didn't think it legally qualifies as pedophilia, which is true.

01:58:09.760 Um, okay.

01:58:11.020 Last but not least, Riley Gaines gets attacked.

01:58:14.440 The reason I'm raising this, Dave, is because you told me last time you were on that you

01:58:17.080 actually went to school with the disgusting Scott Wiener, who's running for Nancy Pelosi's

01:58:24.000 seat is a state legislature and legislator in California.

01:58:27.220 But now he's running for Nancy Pelosi's seat and even California.

01:58:30.320 I know how left they are.

01:58:31.100 They have to stop it.

01:58:31.980 You have to say no.

01:58:33.120 You, I'm sorry, but you cannot vote for this man. 0.87

01:58:35.200 He gets online to attack Riley Gaines as a quote, weird grifter. 0.96

01:58:41.060 Who's mad. 0.86

01:58:42.020 She tied a trans swimmer for sixth place and the ad that she's doing for milk. 1.00

01:58:46.980 These creepy people keep one upping themselves.

01:58:50.000 So he's calling Riley Gaines weird and creepy in response to which I tweeted out a photo of Scott

01:58:57.040 Wiener on the public transit in California wearing stiletto, hot pink heels.

01:59:04.700 Hello, California.

01:59:06.340 This is what you want in your U.S. congressman.

01:59:09.420 Bad enough.

01:59:09.960 He's a state legislator.

01:59:11.100 Now you're going to put him.

01:59:11.900 Can we see the picture, please?

01:59:13.260 Show it to the audience or he's parading.

01:59:15.560 All right.

01:59:15.740 We're going to add it parading around there in his high stiletto heels.

01:59:18.380 And then all these other audience members started to pile on with other disgusting pictures 0.90

01:59:23.220 of Scott Wiener, which you can't unsee of his disgusting naked body with weird little 0.88

01:59:28.080 like, I don't know what this is, his tie. 0.86

01:59:30.900 He's parading around without his shirt on.

01:59:33.440 I'm not sure what we're dealing with here, Dave, but we don't need any more weird, creepy

01:59:38.360 to use his words.

01:59:39.440 And I'll use my own.

01:59:40.760 Perverts in the U.S.

01:59:43.500 Congress. 1.00

01:59:44.180 He's a pervert. 1.00

01:59:45.060 That's my opinion. 0.96

01:59:46.600 So this is your friend from school, law school or college?

01:59:50.560 Both.

01:59:50.840 I knew him in both.

01:59:51.800 He was I knew him better in college.

01:59:54.060 I didn't know him well, I must say, but he was a campus activist.

01:59:57.300 And so everyone knew Scott Wiener.

01:59:58.860 He was the head of the LGBTQ group on campus, and he made it known he was out and proud.

02:00:04.380 And I knew him a little bit then in law school.

02:00:07.800 He was much quieter, at least I must say this.

02:00:11.180 I had respect for his principles.

02:00:12.680 He seemed like he had principles.

02:00:15.600 And the same was true when he was in the state Senate.

02:00:17.840 He believed in what he was saying, I thought.

02:00:20.100 And he actually, because he was born into a religious Jewish family, that he believed

02:00:24.880 in the state of Israel.

02:00:27.300 And now what's crazy is that after he got razzed at a hearing, at a campaign event, because

02:00:33.660 he said that it was not a genocide, Israel's defensive war against Hamas, then he decided

02:00:38.720 to switch.

02:00:39.280 So he literally compromised everything he's been saying and believed in for his entire

02:00:43.240 career and switched overnight to gain votes.

02:00:45.880 So that, to me, makes him no better than any other self-obsessed politician who just

02:00:51.720 looks at the next election rather than the next generation.

02:00:54.280 So I don't put any stock in anything he says.

02:00:57.320 I'm done with that guy.

02:00:58.680 And he should get all the criticism that's leveled his way. 0.84

02:01:01.920 Yes, I'm sorry, but he absolutely strikes me as a creepy pervert who we absolutely should 0.81

02:01:08.780 not let into the U.S. House of Representatives.

02:01:10.760 Mike Davis, any thoughts on Scott Wiener?

02:01:12.420 Do you know of this guy?

02:01:13.620 I've seen him online. 0.99

02:01:14.640 I would say this as a highly partisan, lunatic Republican. 0.95

02:01:19.940 I love the fact that Democrats are going to put this new boogeyman or actually boogeywoman, 0.96

02:01:26.480 if he's wearing stilettos, in the House of Representatives.

02:01:29.580 Unclear.

02:01:30.020 He will.

02:01:30.580 He's definitely not a woman, but he could be a wannabe.

02:01:32.640 But boogeywoman Scott Stilettos, I love that the Democrats may put this guy in the House. 1.00

02:01:39.100 He will be the number one political target for Republicans.

02:01:43.720 We will run against this Scott Wiener every election.

02:01:46.760 So as a partisan Republican, yes, if we're going to get some goofy Democrat in San Francisco,

02:01:52.800 we'll take this guy.

02:01:55.180 Just think of all the renewed New York Post headlines we'll get that we

02:01:59.340 had to say goodbye to once Anthony Wiener was out of the news.

02:02:02.360 Wiener, out! 1.00

02:02:03.400 You know, there were so many, so many great ones by the Post.

02:02:07.120 It was endless.

02:02:08.660 So that will be our one comfort if he winds up winning.

02:02:11.260 Guys, thank you.

02:02:12.040 Thanks for sticking around over time.

02:02:13.620 Always great to have you.

02:02:14.640 Thank you, man.

02:02:15.080 Thank you.

02:02:16.300 Okay.

02:02:16.780 And we are back tomorrow with Allie, Beth, Stuckey, and more.

02:02:19.900 We'll see you then.

02:02:20.620 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. 0.94

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The Megyn Kelly Show - January 21, 2026

Trump Makes Greenland Case in Davos, and Explosive New Busfield Details, with RealClearPolitics, Dave Aronberg and Mike Davis ｜ Ep. 1235

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