The Megyn Kelly Show - Trump Picks His VP, and Jack Smith's Election Interference, with Victor Davis Hanson and Jonathan Turley

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00:00:31.160 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:42.280 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:45.820 It's debate week. Yes, we are getting a general election debate this Thursday, Thursday night.

00:00:52.500 The 2024 campaign is officially on. Yeah, it's been on. I realize that, but this is it.

00:00:58.120 I mean, this is in earnest. All that other stuff we did was just build up

00:01:01.740 as, you know, what else was there to talk about other than who's going to take over as

00:01:05.820 the leader of the free world. We've got so much to discuss today.

00:01:09.720 I've been off for a bit, as you know, went on vacay with my family.

00:01:13.140 Finally, we went to Scandinavia. We went to Sweden, Norway, and Denmark, a place I've never

00:01:20.820 been before. And it was very eye-opening for me. More on that later. But we have a first-time

00:01:27.520 guest on the show next hour, not a first-time interviewee of yours truly, my old pal Jonathan

00:01:32.440 Turley of Fox News. He teaches at GW Law School, George Washington University Law School. But he's

00:01:38.780 going to be here. He's got a new book out, and we'll discuss that. It's on free speech,

00:01:42.060 plus the latest on the Trump trials and the Supreme Court decisions we expect this week.

00:01:46.220 But we begin with Victor Davis Hanson, author of The End of Everything, How Wars Descend

00:01:53.420 into Annihilation. Go buy it if you haven't yet.

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00:02:29.940 Victor, welcome to the show.

00:02:31.900 Thank you.

00:02:32.340 It's funny, like, how wars descend into annihilation. I'm just thinking, when I was over in Scandinavia,

00:02:37.220 we were talking, you know, like, Sweden used to be this epic power. And now, you know,

00:02:43.860 in Denmark, they talked all about, like, the turf wars between Denmark and Sweden. And now it's like,

00:02:49.980 no one really cares that much. I mean, Denmark, I mean, they're very proud of the fact that

00:02:56.120 they have very low crime and they have almost no terrorism. And no one's interested in attacking

00:03:01.640 them. And like, they have a king, their king rides his bike, uh, to work in the morning and

00:03:07.260 rides his kids around and has no security concerns. And that all sounds lovely, but I couldn't help but

00:03:15.040 think, you know, one of our tour guides said to us, we chose during World War II to be occupied.

00:03:21.560 I couldn't help but think you chose, like, there are certain responsibilities that come with being

00:03:29.960 the leader of the free world. That's us. And we weren't really able to sit out World War II. And the

00:03:36.960 truth is, the reason they're not speaking German there is us. And, um, it's just a very different

00:03:42.960 way of life and very different upsides and downsides to the way these countries have come to where they

00:03:48.360 have. I, you're an expert on all this stuff. So I, I'd love to get your take. Yeah. Well,

00:03:53.440 I'm Swedish. So I have a, my, my, uh, father's side. We're all Swedes. I heard you talking about

00:04:00.120 that on your podcast. My brother's name is Nels Hansen. Um, my nephew is leaf Hansen. So they went

00:04:06.980 full Swedish, but, uh, they always said Swedes were, they always told us that Swedes were Danes with

00:04:12.400 their brains blown out because, uh, we like, we like to drink, I guess. I don't drink. My brother's

00:04:18.120 drink, but, um, any of the case drinkers in Denmark, the drinking age in Denmark is 16.

00:04:24.360 This, the Danes, uh, uh, there's a community right near where I'm speaking called Kingsburg that was

00:04:29.920 founded by my great grandfather and grandfather and other Swedes from Lund. And then there's a

00:04:35.400 Danish community. Um, and the Danes all said the Swedes were stupid and workaholics and the Swedes

00:04:41.480 all said the Danes were crafty and clever. I don't know what was true, but there was a lot of rival.

00:04:47.080 In World War II, they were very different though. Um, Sweden was neutral, but it actually sent,

00:04:53.320 it supplied about 90% of Hitler's iron ore and they even gave them free transportation across

00:04:58.600 the Baltics. So they were actively collaborating with Hitler until at least 1944. Then they got scared

00:05:05.880 and cut him off. The Danes were overrun in three days, uh, in 1940, but, you know, Megan,

00:05:13.080 they were one of the only European, uh, countries that actively tried to protect Jews and get them

00:05:20.600 out of the country and away from the Nazis. And they did a really good job of that. The Norway,

00:05:25.720 the Norwegians fought of the three, they fought very fiercely. They, uh, they were overrun and

00:05:31.320 they tied down to Russia, uh, German division through the whole war, about 30,000, 40,000 troops.

00:05:38.760 Hitler could have used anywhere else. He needed them in North Africa. He needed them in Italy.

00:05:43.160 He needed them, but he didn't dare take them out of Norway. And so that was, they were very

00:05:48.440 different. The Norwegians were the toughest of all of them. Sweden has a really, I think it's a pretty

00:05:52.720 valuable NATO member. It's got one of the best, uh, per capita arms industry that the, and the Finns do.

00:05:59.120 So when they both joined NATO, the Finns brought the best artillery of the NATO powers, at least in,

00:06:05.040 in terms of quality and per capita platforms. And the Swedes have the Saab, uh, fighter platform and,

00:06:12.080 and they're right on the border with Russia. So, uh, you know, they were always neutral and now they

00:06:17.240 got scared after Ukraine and, and they really want to be muscular members because they're afraid

00:06:22.440 they're next. And when we were there, we saw, uh, French boats patrolling in Sweden as a result of

00:06:28.220 the NATO membership. And those, I'm not surprised about the Norway, uh, thing. Cause they're,

00:06:33.560 you've got that Viking heritage. You know what I mean? I will say, and I'll show you some pictures

00:06:37.760 later, but truly one of the most beautiful places on earth, like all three of these places,

00:06:43.640 but especially those fjords or as Abby kept calling them the Fajord. I'm trying to see if

00:06:48.760 she can get wifi on a Fajord. Anyway, those beautiful bodies of water, uh, ensconced between

00:06:55.200 three mountainous regions. Um, they used to be glaciers. And if you, if you can ever go,

00:07:01.000 it's a long plane ride, but my God, well worth your time. Okay. So anyway, let's get back to

00:07:05.200 news domestically because I've missed talking about it. And I have been listening to your show,

00:07:08.860 which I love, uh, the debate. Let's talk about the big debate. Yeah, it is going to happen on

00:07:14.340 Thursday, barring some crazy circumstance where somebody bails at the last minute and Trump wisely

00:07:22.020 is finally not playing down expectations for Joe Biden. Uh, finally trying to hedge a little on just,

00:07:29.960 you know, what he might be dealing with. He is reportedly not doing debate mock sessions with

00:07:36.060 anybody. He did before where Chris Christie, uh, played his opponent, Joe Biden, but reportedly he's

00:07:42.580 not doing that this time. And Joe Biden is doing that. And I do think just given reality, I don't

00:07:48.560 think this is a mistake by Republicans, but just given reality, the stakes could not be lower for a Joe

00:07:54.440 Biden performance, right? For a, for him to emerge victorious, he's just going to have to not die

00:08:00.860 during the 90 minutes. But what do you think? I think it's kind of like the state of the union,

00:08:06.620 right before the state of the union, he had been stumbling again. He was at his low point and they

00:08:11.820 did the same thing. They put him on, they put a lid on everything for about five days. And then he came

00:08:18.680 out and, you know, when you talk about his cognitive challenges and Adderall and all these jokes, you

00:08:24.280 get all these neurologists, maybe you've talked to them, they call you or they write you and they give

00:08:28.900 you a whole menu of pharmaceuticals or neutrosils that can help him. And, uh, I think that's what

00:08:35.860 happened in the state of the union. He wasn't coherent, but he was animated. He was angry. He was fiery

00:08:40.440 for an, over an hour and a half. So I expect the same thing. I don't, I think he'll come out. He'll,

00:08:47.080 he'll want to show everybody he's muscular. He'll have to stand and he will yell and that kind of

00:08:52.640 mean grimace. And if Trump can just keep quiet, just keep calm and just talk about what the Biden

00:09:01.080 record is versus what his record was and what his plan will be, I think he'll do fine. But, uh,

00:09:06.560 it's in a weird way, Megan, they've kind of slanted, as you know, that the rules of the debate

00:09:13.100 because, um, they have, but I don't think it's going to help Biden because cutting the mic,

00:09:18.960 I think helps Trump in a weird way so that he can't interject the idea. They stand for,

00:09:24.340 I think they're going to stand if I'm right. If I remember correctly for an hour and a half,

00:09:28.480 I think that helps. And then the idea that all of these, especially Jake Tapper have this record of

00:09:35.380 sort of overt bias or dislike of Trump, I think we'll actually, he'll be on his best behavior.

00:09:42.120 If he is not, people will notice it and empathize with Trump. So if he can keep calm and I think

00:09:48.860 he'll do well, but if he goes out like he did in the first debate, and I don't think it's going to

00:09:53.680 be as easy to do that under this platform. The other thing is really quickly, we've never had,

00:09:58.820 you know, we don't really talk about why we were debating at all. We've never had a debate before

00:10:03.280 in the history of these debates when neither of the candidates has been nominated. And it's obvious

00:10:08.480 that this is some kind of stress test for Joe Biden, that if he doesn't do well, there's going

00:10:13.660 to be talk that he'll get off the ballot and they'll be able to have both the convention and put

00:10:18.000 another person's name on most states in time. Whereas if he had debated in October, it would

00:10:23.580 have been too late. So the pressure is on Biden, but it's kind of self-induced by his own party.

00:10:28.740 Mm hmm. Yeah, no, that's that's what's fascinating. The Daily Mail had a piece on this saying

00:10:33.980 they'd spoken with some top dem operatives who are saying that really is the purpose that if Joe

00:10:39.300 Biden falls down at this debate or if his poll numbers continued cratering, this is a few days

00:10:45.820 ago now, this would at least this early debate date give them a chance on the dem side to sub

00:10:51.840 somebody else in. But at the same time, they're making plans to nominate Joe Biden virtually even

00:10:58.400 prior to the Democratic convention, which is seen by some as a move by the Biden allies to lock him

00:11:05.660 in and make sure he cannot be subbed out no matter what happens. I am fascinated to talk about what's

00:11:12.460 happened in the polling since I was last on the air live two weeks ago, because there has been

00:11:18.760 some erosion for Trump with independence in the wake of that conviction. And you can see the argument

00:11:27.860 by the Dems that everything is going to plan, that Joe Biden's not the ideal choice, but he beat Trump

00:11:34.160 once before. He'll beat him again by running on Trump's personality as opposed to his own accomplishments,

00:11:40.200 Joe Biden's and that all he really needs to do on Thursday is irritate Trump, like do like just keep

00:11:48.800 poking him because Trump's goal is to try to maintain some sense of dignity and strength, but not

00:11:56.540 pettiness. And if Joe Biden just keeps needling him, Trump has some sort of a nasty meltdown that

00:12:04.140 causes interrupting Trump to come back and the numbers with women start falling, et cetera. What do you what

00:12:09.820 do you think of that plan? I think that's mostly right. Absolutely. And I think he'll call him a

00:12:15.060 convicted felon or it'll be January 6th, abortion, destruct destroying democracy and you're a felon and

00:12:23.740 all that. But one thing about the polls, you know, the Fox poll had Biden on the national level up to

00:12:30.100 and then the Rasmussen poll came out and you probably saw that one that just came out. And in that

00:12:36.280 Biden was down when it was a head to head, I think nine. And with the three, a tripartite field, he was

00:12:42.940 down by seven. And I think that that was revealing because we've all been watching these stories, the

00:12:49.040 black community, the Latino community, young people, independents, that they had been drifting, that the

00:12:54.780 never Trumpers were kind of dead enders. Now, nobody listened to them, that these big fat cats were starting to

00:13:00.660 come back to the Republicans. And yet that wasn't reflected in the national polls. It wasn't the state

00:13:06.960 polls. When you look at Georgia, Arizona or Nevada, and to a lesser extent, maybe Wisconsin and

00:13:14.700 Pennsylvania. And then you had these huge leads in Iowa, 18 and almost dead even in Minnesota.

00:13:21.740 So I was trying to figure out, all of us were trying to figure it out. And then when this

00:13:25.660 latest Rasmussen came out, it kind of made sense that Trump is actually, I think, doing a lot

00:13:31.820 better than the Fox poll suggested. Because you couldn't have all these constituencies that are

00:13:37.300 starting to change or are starting to evolve toward Trump and have that not reflected in some sort of

00:13:43.080 poll. They were reflected in the state, as I said, but they hadn't been the national. I think a lot of these

00:13:47.240 polls were just oversampling or reflecting these huge blue margins in New York, Illinois, and

00:13:52.980 California. But I don't think that it's even on the national poll. I think Trump's got a four or five

00:13:59.100 point lead. That Philadelphia rally was very, I mean, I don't want to get into that because the same

00:14:04.320 thing happened in 2020. He had enormous rallies and then Biden had these cars honking like a drive-in

00:14:11.360 movie set or something, and he won. But I do think that Trump is a lot stronger now than he was in 2020,

00:14:19.040 both as a candidate and support and financially. Well, and here's what's crazy. You look at the

00:14:24.320 polling, and yes, there's definitely been an erosion, or at least according to the most polls,

00:14:28.840 at the national level for Trump amongst independents. Not huge, but significant since

00:14:34.980 the verdict. But in the battleground states, he's still ahead of Joe Biden in all of them. And the fact

00:14:41.660 that it's even possible that Trump could win Minnesota, Michigan, Wisconsin, not to mention

00:14:50.000 Nevada. I mean, Nevada's certainly not a lock for any Republican running. And Trump's playing Nevada

00:14:55.960 very brilliantly. This, you know, no more taxes on your tips pitch is very good politics, especially

00:15:03.380 in Nevada. I mean, I'm sure it's designed to get to win Nevada. Anyway, all of that is very interesting.

00:15:10.400 However, when I was reading my research for today, the single biggest thing that stood out to me

00:15:17.920 among all the news updates that my team put together for me was something that was a piece of old news.

00:15:24.480 At this time during the 2016 race, Hillary Clinton was up in the polls over Donald Trump,

00:15:31.800 5.8 percentage points, almost six percentage points. So we love to read these tea leaves,

00:15:39.580 but they honestly tell us almost nothing. Like at some point you, you're almost just going on

00:15:46.180 instinct. You can feel the shift in the electorate. You can feel the mood of the country. You can,

00:15:51.640 and maybe you'll be right. Maybe you won't, but we obsess over these numbers as if they really are

00:15:57.280 meaningful. And yet Hillary Clinton up by almost six points at this point, 16.

00:16:02.720 And I think that's absolutely right. I remember the 1980 race, you could feel something was going

00:16:09.640 on. And yet the polls had Carter and Reagan almost even. In fact, I went back and looked at the Gallup,

00:16:15.480 the second to the last Gallup poll in mid-October had Carter ahead by six points. And they only had

00:16:21.500 one debate. And it was very similar to this race. There was the third party, John Anderson. Carter wouldn't

00:16:26.600 debate him. He wanted him off, tried to get him off the debate, tried to get him off the ballot. Reagan

00:16:31.440 debated him. He took only 7% of the vote eventually. But people were kind, they were getting sick of the

00:16:38.700 Iranian hostages. They were disappointed about the failed rescue. There was this hyperinflation. There was

00:16:44.680 this oil problem. And then there was a stagflation. And then you had Carter, and he was berating the

00:16:52.660 people, just like the Biden people. He was angry. And he was, you know, the so-called Malay speech,

00:16:58.200 it's your fault. And then Reagan was just sort of, I'm going to do it. There won't be hostages

00:17:03.200 when I'm president. Don't worry. They will not be there. I'll tell you that. And we're going to deal

00:17:07.620 with it. We're going to get the country back. We're going to make America come back, come home

00:17:11.940 America. And everybody laughed at him. He's never been a fit. He's just a buffoon. He doesn't know what

00:17:16.880 he's doing. He didn't have a really great debate against John Anderson. Maybe he lost that debate.

00:17:24.080 And then the second one with Carter, I thought he did pretty well. But he just kind of said,

00:17:28.820 you know, he really, Carter gave all his staccato facts and data as he did. And he'd say,

00:17:34.660 there you go again. There you go again. And people didn't, the polls didn't catch up that people were,

00:17:41.720 they were tired of being lectured. They were tired of, you can't do this. America's through.

00:17:47.500 We have this age of limitations. You've got to turn down your thermostat. We can't get the

00:17:51.980 hostages back. We don't dare try another rescue. This was a mistake. We warned you.

00:17:57.200 And Reagan was saying just the opposite. We're going to do this. We can do this. We're Americans.

00:18:01.320 And people waited a long time. And then finally, it was almost like a tidal way. They just said,

00:18:06.280 you know, I'm done with Carter. I'm just, I don't care what my affiliation, I'm going to vote for this

00:18:10.760 other guy. And I think there's some of that going on right now. Well, this is why Joe Biden will not be

00:18:16.900 arguing his record in these final months of the campaign. That's that's, he's not going to win

00:18:22.160 on that. He's got to make it about Donald Trump and Trump's character. And he's already starting

00:18:28.140 to do that. We saw, um, as Trump is now marking, at least in the polls, historic numbers with black

00:18:35.200 voters. The Biden campaign is fighting back. That is the one thing. I mean, the Democrats cannot lose.

00:18:42.420 They they're starting to see Trump erode their margins with women. The Dems are going to win

00:18:49.740 women, but it matters by how much because Trump's going to win men. So it really matters by how much,

00:18:56.320 um, they have started to erode with young voters. The Biden campaign has though. They're making inroads

00:19:03.820 with seniors, but the one thing they will not allow to bleed out is the black vote because that is

00:19:10.180 really the core of the democratic vote. And therefore they're now releasing, um, this ad,

00:19:15.700 which goes all in on calling Trump a convicted criminal. Listen here. It's not one

00:19:21.160 in the courtroom. We see Donald Trump for who he is. He's been convicted of 34 felonies found liable

00:19:29.840 for sexual assault and he committed financial fraud. Meanwhile, Joe Biden's been working,

00:19:36.620 lowering healthcare costs and making big corporations pay their fair share. This

00:19:42.040 election is between a convicted criminal who's only out for himself and a president who's fighting for

00:19:48.600 your family. So there's that. On top of that, we expect perhaps we might hear Joe Biden directly

00:19:58.280 call Trump a convicted felon for the first time at the debate, did it behind closed doors, but will

00:20:03.940 he do it on the, for the first time publicly on the debate stage? And, uh, one third piece of

00:20:09.260 information to add to the analysis, Victor, and that is this guy, Harry Enten over at CNN, who's, um,

00:20:15.880 all about the polls, who has been tracking how Trump is doing with black voters and can't believe

00:20:23.000 his eyes. Watch. I keep looking for this to change, to go back to a historical norm, and it's simply put

00:20:30.900 has not yet. I keep looking for signs that this is gonna go back to normal, and I don't see it

00:20:36.140 yet in the polling. Look at black voters under the age of 50. Holy cow, folks. Holy cow. Look at this.

00:20:42.540 Joe Biden was up by 80 points among this group back at this point in 2020. Look at where that margin

00:20:47.620 has careened down towards, it's now just, get this, 37 points. I just never seen anything like

00:20:54.760 this. I'm like speechless because you always look at history and you go, okay, this is a historic

00:20:59.540 moment. So to your point of you can feel something happening, I mean, you can feel something happening

00:21:06.720 with black voters, and that one is being reflected in the polls, and it's causing a panic among team

00:21:12.260 Biden. Yeah. I'm not sure that commercial works, though, because 60 percent in most polls feel that

00:21:19.180 the prosecutions were somewhat politically tainted, or a lot politically tainted, and then about 50 percent

00:21:25.840 think the Biden family is culpable. So when you have him with his picture as a convicted felon,

00:21:31.480 there's gonna be a lot of people who say, yeah, but it was political, and even Robert Hurst, to the

00:21:35.380 degree they know about that, said he was culpable, and there's gonna be a disequilibrium in how the

00:21:41.060 law is applied, and when, if that, if that's part of the package to appeal to young black men, and they

00:21:47.280 see that Trump with this convicted felony, and the Biden is kind of lording it over, I don't think that's

00:21:52.560 gonna work either, because they feel that this, a lot of the social justice system is weighed in certain

00:21:57.580 ways, and I don't think that's a wise strategy. It brings the larger question, though, Megan, you can see

00:22:02.800 that he doesn't have a national unity, and he doesn't, you mentioned the issues, but he doesn't say

00:22:07.620 Americans like what I did in the border. Americans like the inflationary, or the inflation reduction

00:22:14.460 act. Americans like what I did in Afghanistan. They like I'm pulling away from Israel. They like

00:22:21.160 we're, you know, that we're more sensitive to crime, and we're not just gonna fund the police.

00:22:26.900 I don't think he's gonna, as you said, he's not gonna run on that. So in lieu of that, besides the

00:22:31.620 negative campaigning, he's sliced up the electorate, and he's saying, well, I can still win. I can give

00:22:40.260 the public purse to student loan amnesties. Then I can give amnesties. Then I can drain the

00:22:46.940 strategic petroleum reserve. Then I can work with Obrador to police the border better. Then I can

00:22:52.880 job on the Fed so that they're going to lower interest rates. Then I can give amnesty for this

00:22:58.300 particular subset of illegal aid. And I'm gonna, you know, the student loan, all of that together

00:23:04.640 will give, I don't think it works. I think the more that he does that, people say you're doing

00:23:09.000 this for your own, I don't know, your own political agendas at the expense of all of us. Because they

00:23:14.600 all have downsides, that particular pandering. But that's what they're doing. Instead of just saying,

00:23:20.020 I'm going to win over the majority on what I did and what I'll do, it's, I'm going to give this group

00:23:24.820 and that group and this group and these people and those guys something right before the election

00:23:29.640 that I would never do before any other time, except this year. The, the, um, the black vote

00:23:37.280 is absolutely critical, obviously to Joe Biden's reelection and Harry Enten wasn't kidding around.

00:23:43.200 Um, Biden has dropped among the women, as I pointed out, but he's really slid with the black and the

00:23:50.760 Hispanic women, which I mean, that's the net. I can just imagine them having to deliver that news

00:23:55.680 to Joe Biden. You know, you, you are losing the very core constituency. You've always counted on

00:24:00.640 and always believed you could take for granted. Um, he has fallen Joe Biden, 18 points with black

00:24:07.480 women since the 2020 election, 18. He has fallen 12 points with Hispanic women since the 2020 election.

00:24:16.660 Uh, Kellyanne Conway saying, uh, days ago, the, the reason is Joe Biden and the Democrats seem to

00:24:24.660 only talk to women from the waist down. That's I've never heard it put so well. Yeah, well, that that's

00:24:33.060 true. And, uh, that, that I just also a stereotype that say women understand inflation better than men

00:24:39.540 because they tend to do the shopping or they are more sensitive to grocery prices. And that's true too.

00:24:44.820 And then of course, a lot of suburban women, especially in places where I live in California,

00:24:50.600 especially Los Angeles and San Francisco, when you talk to people who say, I don't like to walk out

00:24:55.160 at night, I can't walk down market street. I don't go down to downtown. They're all women,

00:25:00.660 professional women. And I think there's a lot of them that think Joe Biden and what he represents had

00:25:06.540 a lot to do with the destruction of the safety and security in urban America. That'll help a little bit.

00:25:12.120 But, uh, the other thing is Joe Biden always does better when as all candidates, but especially him

00:25:19.660 when he's even or a little ahead in the polls. And then he, he feigns out on the old Joe Biden from

00:25:25.680 Scranton, uncle Joe. But when he started, we saw him in the primary and he was down. That was when he

00:25:31.480 started to hear corn pop and Hey fat and lying dog-faced pony soldier. Or when he feels that the

00:25:38.880 MAGA is starting to increase, you get that phantom of the opera speech about semi-fascist,

00:25:43.400 ultra MAGA, the screaming out. And if Trump can at least seem like he's ahead and put Joe Biden on

00:25:51.680 the defensive and then Joe Biden, they're telling Joe Biden, you've got to go after Trump. You've got

00:25:56.940 to go after his criminality, supposedly. You've got to go after his business. You've got to go after

00:26:00.800 his crew. Then that's where he does not do well because you look at that face and it gets, it gets

00:26:06.900 contorted. He grimaces. It's almost reptilian. He gets really angry. And that's, that's what I think

00:26:13.140 that turns off people just as much as his cognitive lapses and hiatuses is when he gets angry and he,

00:26:18.960 and he's mean, he looks mean spirited. You know what I mean? And, and, uh, and that's when he gets

00:26:24.500 confused too. The angrier he gets, that's when he starts to have these word salads that you can't

00:26:29.720 translate. But if Trump keeps Tom in the debate and Biden feels that he's got to do something or

00:26:35.480 go after him, then he gets, he shows, he, I guess what I'm trying to say, he was never uncle Joe from

00:26:41.140 Scranton. He was always had a mean streak in him, even before these cognitive lapses. I remember,

00:26:46.540 you know, he dropped out of the 2008 race because he said Barack Obama was the first clean black.

00:26:52.480 And then he got angry in the 88 race about all the plagiarism and lying about his education.

00:26:58.180 And he always got angry. And, um, uh, I just don't, you know, I'm not underestimating. He did beat

00:27:06.880 Paul Ryan in the debate, but that was a different Joe Biden. He beat probably beat Sarah Palin in the

00:27:12.280 debate earlier, but those, that was a very different Joe Biden. And even very different Joe Biden.

00:27:18.480 Yeah. And I think if they, but then Trump raised that issue with Paul Ryan, he, he spoke with our

00:27:22.960 pals over at the all in podcast. Um, and he, he raised this point. He was lowering the expectations,

00:27:28.700 sorry, raising the expectations on Joe Biden's performance. Cause he doesn't want people to

00:27:33.740 have a zero, uh, expectation of Biden. And he mentioned that thing with Paul Ryan. Take a

00:27:38.980 listen to SOP three. You have a prediction for the debate next week. What's going to happen?

00:27:44.100 Well, all I can say is this. I watched him with Paul Ryan and he destroyed Paul Ryan,

00:27:49.060 Paul Ryan with the water. He was chugging water at a left and right. I didn't think a human being

00:27:52.900 would be able to drink so much water at one time and he beat Paul Ryan. So I I'm not underestimating

00:27:59.140 him. I'm not underestimating him. We, it is what it is. Uh, I assume he's going to be, uh,

00:28:04.940 somebody that will be a worthy debater. Yeah, I would say, I think I don't want to underestimate him.

00:28:12.040 Very smart. By the way, here's a, here's a bit of that debate he's referring to between,

00:28:15.800 uh, Joe Biden and Paul Ryan. It has never been done before. It's been done a couple of times.

00:28:21.780 It has never. Jack Kennedy, lower tax rates, increased growth. Ronald Reagan. Oh, now you're

00:28:25.600 Jack Kennedy. Ronald Reagan. With all due respect, that's a bunch of malarkey.

00:28:32.660 Mm-hmm. So he, as you point out though, Victor, Joe Biden, he's not even the same man

00:28:40.220 as he was since 2020. Nevermind back when he was debating Paul Ryan. It's just, he,

00:28:46.960 I don't think he's capable of that. No, he's not. He could. And that all in podcast, I watched that.

00:28:54.860 Joe Biden couldn't do that for five minutes. And, uh, those guys would never have voted for Trump in

00:29:01.240 2016 or 2020. And, and when I looked at the, I was curious, I didn't realize the last two months,

00:29:08.600 Trump has either matched or exceeded the Biden fundraising. A lot of it came from the conviction,

00:29:13.160 but there's just things that are so different this time around. And you've got tech people

00:29:17.920 and capitalists that are very, that don't like Trump personally and feel felt that it was socially

00:29:24.680 taboo kryptonite, even to mention you were going to vote for him. And now they're openly coming out

00:29:30.160 and saying they're going to vote for him and they're going to give money to him.

00:29:32.780 And that's new. That's a lot that that's new. And it's because they look at this as an existential

00:29:38.840 vote. They don't look at the personalities. They just look, they just, these tech guys and a lot of

00:29:44.080 very wealthy people, especially never Trump Republicans. They say, I don't really care

00:29:50.820 anymore about tweets. I don't, this is an existential vote. This border is not sustainable.

00:29:55.880 10 million people is not sustainable that we don't even know who they are.

00:29:59.520 What happened in Afghanistan, turning on Israel, that's not sustainable.

00:30:04.440 It's not sustainable with the crime in our downtown. It's not sustainable with the lawfare.

00:30:10.920 None of this, if we vote for this, we're going to get it. There's going to be no check on it. It's

00:30:15.140 going to be coming back in spade. We cannot do this. And I've talked to a lot of these guys and they,

00:30:21.720 I think a lot of them are not going to talk about it, but they're going to give money or vote for Trump.

00:30:26.020 And, uh, I, I, I knew they wouldn't in 2016 and 2020. The other thing is you don't really hear

00:30:32.900 these prominent Republicans anymore as you did in 2020, the Bill Crystals, the David Frums,

00:30:38.680 George Wills, um, all these guys that come out and they weigh in and everybody's, Oh my God,

00:30:45.740 the traditional Republican, everybody, they either have embarrassed themselves because they have no,

00:30:50.900 they either have to vote for this nihilistic, destructive agenda that we've suffered through

00:30:55.400 the last three and a half years, or they, they've gone full democratic. I mean, they're no different

00:31:00.440 than the left. And so that's different. That wasn't true before people listened to them. They said, wow,

00:31:07.800 these were the stalwarts of the conservative movement and they, they can't vote for Trump.

00:31:12.480 So there, there's something in the air that's, it's different this time around. And a lot of it will

00:31:17.740 depend on these, I suppose Jack Smith. And if we have some, uh, startling new indictment or conviction

00:31:25.500 or Alvin Bragg tries to put him in jail, but even then history shows from these convictions that it

00:31:31.520 does not hurt Trump and occasionally it helps him. So that you're making such a good point. I saw just

00:31:36.440 this morning on, on X, um, I think it was Steven L. Miller who posted, uh, a Bill Crystal then and now

00:31:44.080 side by side, Bill Crystal, who you point out, you know, editor of the weekly standard formerly

00:31:48.840 used to be a God of conservative thought and became a never Trumper to the point where now

00:31:53.900 he's completely crossed over. And he, it was meaningful at first to have somebody like that

00:31:58.680 put the nose up at Trump and say, no. And this guy, he, he pointed out that Crystal today on the

00:32:04.740 anniversary, uh, of Dobbs, it's the two year anniversary of Dobbs reversing Roe versus Wade

00:32:09.260 overturning, um, saying this is Bill Crystal. Okay. The conservative conservative Stalwart,

00:32:16.980 uh, formerly saying this is how Democrats should play it today. That, that, uh, Trump is directly

00:32:24.800 responsible for the overturning of Roe that, you know, taking away the constitutional right to

00:32:29.800 abortion. And so, and of course he, he puts next to it, a screen grab of Crystal with a headline of

00:32:36.200 his own in an earlier writing, Roe must go that they have no credibility with conservatives or

00:32:43.000 right-leaning voters anymore. And, and the whole, you don't have to be a politico to know that,

00:32:48.100 to know that names like, uh, Steve Schmidt, Nicole Wallace, uh, Bill Crystal are lefties. Now they're

00:32:56.060 not, they don't speak for conservatives. No, they're not conservatives. In 2016, Bill Crystal

00:33:01.860 was pontificating that he was going to help pick, remember a third party candidate. He even mentioned

00:33:07.240 people like David French. He thought he had that influence. In 2020, he was saying, you know, I'm,

00:33:13.160 I'm a real conservative, but Joe Biden is a decent guy and he's going to unite the country and he's

00:33:17.640 moderate. And all of that fell apart. And now all he can do, and he reflects a lot of the subsidies

00:33:23.460 that go to the platforms he works on, the bulwark, for example, a lot of left-wing money goes there,

00:33:27.980 but they're not conservatives. And it brings, and when they start to tell people what to do,

00:33:32.780 everybody who said, thanks, that follows them or used to follow and say, wait a minute,

00:33:37.940 we believed you at one time. You were the one that were to the right of us. You were telling them no

00:33:43.160 compromise. You were telling us that they just are destroying the country that left. You were the

00:33:47.900 one that raising money for yourself. You had the weekly standard day in and day out. You were

00:33:52.260 beating that drum. And now all of a sudden it was all fake. It was all what? Just because you're

00:33:57.940 your belief in, in, you know, your pro-life beliefs because Trump like that, that got you

00:34:05.260 off of believing abortions murder. How exactly? Here's the tweet, by the way, he tweeted out Biden

00:34:09.940 campaign message on the second anniversary of Dobbs can be pretty simple. It's because of Trump

00:34:14.140 judges that Roe versus Wade was overturned. If Trump gets to pick more judges, more freedoms will

00:34:18.960 be at risk. No more Trump judges, which means we cannot elect Trump president. And the earlier

00:34:25.800 headline headline in 1998, which was a position he maintained for years thereafter was Roe must

00:34:33.400 go in the Washington examiner. Uh, it's just, I mean, it's just absolutely transparent to anybody

00:34:39.380 that it's about their personal grudges with this man that have deranged their thinking on the issues

00:34:44.900 who like, who goes the other way, who grows up pro-life and then at age 70 becomes pro-choice,

00:34:51.800 but a never Trumper, right? Just like it only a never Trumper goes there. All right. I want to

00:34:58.860 get to a couple of other things with you. Um, first, just another point on that all in podcast,

00:35:02.940 uh, G Jason Calacanis. I I'm sure I butchered the last name Calacanis. He's been on our show.

00:35:09.900 He's one of the all in, uh, hosts and he's, I think it's fair to say the most left, um, host on

00:35:16.180 there. Trump won him over. And I guarantee he doesn't like Trump. When he came on our show,

00:35:22.680 he's the only guest in history that I've called a prick to his face. Um, but I said it lovingly,

00:35:27.400 Victor, he wound up getting a little wooed by Trump. Take a listen.

00:35:32.400 J Cal, what are your, what are your big takeaways?

00:35:35.240 Well, I'm undecided, as you know, we had a limited amount of time with him and obviously,

00:35:40.200 I'll just say it, just say it. You like him. You didn't, you were to say it,

00:35:43.900 just say it because it's written all across your face. Just say you like him. You're confused.

00:35:48.180 I have some questions. No, he crushed your questions. You asked great questions and he

00:35:54.280 just dealt with them head on. Just admit it. You like him. You like him.

00:36:01.300 He's smiling. He's laughing. I told you you'd like him. I told you you'd like him.

00:36:08.280 That's the thing about Trump. You know, I've said before, if he wants to charm you,

00:36:11.060 you're going to be charged. Yeah, I think, and that's a good point, but, uh, getting back to all,

00:36:17.560 all of this, it just, it's kind of banished the whole idea of never Trump. There's now either

00:36:22.300 people who are going to vote for this, this agenda, and there's going to be people who are

00:36:26.380 going to vote against it. And that's as simple as that. And the people who are going to vote for

00:36:29.840 are hardcore progressives and diehard Democrats and Bill Christ. And the other thing is we never talk

00:36:36.420 about, but if you and I had this conversation in 2016 or 14 or 12, we would be telling, you would

00:36:45.260 be asking me, or I would be commenting back to you. Did you see what Bill Christel wrote in New

00:36:50.380 York Times? Did you see what George Will wrote in the Washington Post? Did you see what David Frum

00:36:55.060 said the other day? Did you see what Jonah Goldberg said on Fox? And that's all gone now. It just

00:37:01.080 vanished. And I think a lot of this animus and invective and virulence comes from the fact they

00:37:06.880 think, what happened to me? I was at the zenith of my conservative career. I had grants, I had money

00:37:12.080 coming, and I had foundations. I'm John Bolton. I had a huge pack. And all of a sudden, that guy did it.

00:37:19.000 He, I was principled. I was idealistic. And he, he's a scoundrel. I couldn't make people. They're all

00:37:24.540 suffering from false consciousness. And now Donald Trump destroyed my career. And I'm going to get

00:37:30.880 back at it. And that's how that, that's kind of reductionist, but that's how I think what happened.

00:37:35.360 I totally agree with that analysis. 100%. This is one of the reasons why, you know, I like some of

00:37:42.520 the more, I think, reasonable voices on the right who definitely don't like Trump, but are able to

00:37:48.620 analyze his policy soundly and fairly. They don't like him. You wouldn't look to them for advice on

00:37:56.240 whether Trump's a great person necessarily, because they're not objective on him,

00:38:00.240 but they can analyze his policies. But the people you mentioned are not in that boat. Okay. Let me

00:38:05.060 take a quick break and we'll come back. There's, we've got to talk about this other incident in the

00:38:09.000 media talking about these illegal immigrant crimes. These illegal aliens are here murdering

00:38:16.280 and raping 12 and 13 year old girls. And I'm sorry. It's a new low, even for them. MSNBC

00:38:24.860 is laughing about it. We'll show you the clip next.

00:38:31.440 So Victor, before we get to what happened with these illegals, um, I want to spend a minute on

00:38:36.320 Trump and the veep stakes on the Republican side, Trump telling NBC news at that Philadelphia campaign

00:38:43.580 stop where he just got tons of crowds and so much enthusiasm. This is like the heart of the

00:38:48.640 Democratic party, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, Joe Biden's 2020 campaign headquarters were in this

00:38:54.060 city. He's been there at least five times this year. Trump went and crushed. You never know about

00:38:58.620 crowd size, et cetera, but it happened anyway. Um, he told NBC in Philadelphia, he has decided

00:39:05.500 quote in my mind, uh, who he will make his vice presidential running mate and says the person most

00:39:14.540 likely will be at Thursday's debate against Joe Biden. By the way, we will be doing live coverage of

00:39:22.160 that debate right here on Megan Kelly, uh, show youtube.com slash Megan Kelly. If you want to see

00:39:28.020 our live reaction right after, um, now there is a report in puck news, uh, by Tara Palmieri that the

00:39:36.260 veep stakes on the Republican side is turned into a proxy fight between Tucker Carlson and Rupert Murdoch

00:39:44.580 that Rupert wants more establishment types along the lines of maybe a Doug Burgum that he would be fine

00:39:53.740 with Marco Rubio. His number one love is Glenn Youngkin, governor of Virginia and Tucker is good

00:40:01.140 friends with, I can confirm, uh, JD Vance and JD Vance is ready to accept the America first baton from

00:40:08.980 Trump, uh, in a way, arguably those others are not. And the reporter makes the point that, um,

00:40:17.860 this is why this sort of proxy fight we've seen some Murdoch publications, not so kind to JD Vance,

00:40:26.620 not hugely fans of him apparently. And it didn't remind me of this exchange that made headlines the

00:40:32.380 other day where Brett bear had on JD Vance. And this is a completely fair line of inquiry, but ask JD

00:40:38.620 about his original back in 1615 thoughts on Trump. Watch. You know, Senator, this is an

00:40:47.760 evolution. And I know you've been asked about this before about past comments that you've made

00:40:52.500 about Donald Trump. Um, you've said, I've never, I'm a never Trump guy, never liked him, terrible

00:40:58.440 candidate, idiot. If you voted for him might be America's Hitler, might be a cynical, a-hole cultural

00:41:05.100 heroine, noxious and reprehensible. Those are things that the left is going to come after you

00:41:10.020 and they're probably going to be put in ads. Should you be chosen as the VP pick? How do you deal with

00:41:15.420 them now? Yeah, well, I think the simple answer is you've got to respect the American people enough

00:41:19.580 to just level with them. Look, uh, I was wrong about Donald Trump. I didn't think he was going

00:41:23.240 to be a good president, Brett. He was a great president. And it's one of the reasons why I'm

00:41:26.800 working so hard to make sure he gets a second term. I think you should, when you, when you're wrong

00:41:31.020 about something, you should change your mind and be honest with people about that fact.

00:41:36.240 What do you make of it, Victor? And whether this is a proxy fight and whether JD Vance could

00:41:40.580 still be chosen, notwithstanding calling Trump, America's Hitler. Well, I, you know, there,

00:41:47.680 it works both ways. The left was, uh, and when he said that about, uh, I know JD a little bit,

00:41:56.000 but you remember he had just done this book about growing up in Appalachia,

00:42:01.500 hillbilly allergy or whatever. And the left loved it. They loved it because it was, it was,

00:42:07.320 uh, uh, it wasn't just empathetic to the working class. It was also self-critical

00:42:13.560 and self-critical of pathologies that made people in Appalachia, uh, stuck in poverty and the left

00:42:20.440 then thoughts. And then he was, they kind of canonized. It was a bestseller. They,

00:42:24.880 they made a movie out of it. They just embraced him. And in that period, I think he reflected that.

00:42:30.820 And then when he started to change a little bit in 2016, after that, they just turned on him

00:42:37.840 and they despise him now. And I think he, he was wrong. And I remember talking to him in that period.

00:42:44.320 At one point I met him and the first time I met him and, uh, he was very polite about it. He just

00:42:50.260 said that he disagreed with Trump. He didn't like him. I didn't know he'd called him the other things,

00:42:54.660 but it's always better to be transparent on the larger. And I think he's doing that. Um, but

00:43:00.800 Brett bear is exactly right. They're going to have a lot of tough commercials about that.

00:43:05.220 I think when you look at all these candidates with Trump, I think people are not going to go

00:43:10.860 with a typical, this person balances them racially or gender wise, or this state or that state,

00:43:17.780 they're going to look for somebody because both vice president candidate, if Biden should get the

00:43:23.900 nomination, both are septuagenarians and he's an octogenarian Biden. And people are going to say,

00:43:29.960 we want somebody that we can rely on. And that's going to, and that's not Kamala Harris. We don't

00:43:36.480 want a Kamala Harris. We don't want anybody on the Republican side. Not that there would be any,

00:43:41.640 but we want somebody who has experience. And the other thing that's really important,

00:43:46.240 you, you've got to have somebody who genuinely likes Trump and knows both his strengths and

00:43:52.860 weaknesses, his foibles, his occasional, you know, slanders or whatever, his toxic tweets,

00:43:59.800 and, and, and can, can put that in perspective, given what he's done for the country and his law.

00:44:05.520 And, uh, I think that feels comfortable with him. So when I don't see that big, maybe you would

00:44:13.180 disagree with me, but I don't really see that big difference between JD Vance, Glenn Youngkin,

00:44:19.920 Marco Rubio, Doug Birkin, in the, in the ability to run the country. I think they're all able to do

00:44:25.940 that. Maybe the others have a little bit more executive experience than JD, but they're all,

00:44:31.260 I think they genuinely like, or they've come to like Donald Trump. They're not going to be

00:44:35.720 leaking about him. If he were to be elected, they're not going to whine, say, Oh my gosh,

00:44:39.900 you don't know what it's like to work. There's not going to be an anonymous on their staff.

00:44:43.700 That's very, very important. Pence had that for a while, but I, at the end, you, you got the

00:44:49.400 impression that although he was capable and he was very loyal to Trump and Trump in many ways was not

00:44:55.780 nice to him or didn't treat him well, but you got the impression that his Christianity, his morality,

00:45:02.340 it just couldn't stomach Donald Trump. And that kind of exuded that. And then after, you know,

00:45:08.100 January 6th and that, that came out very strongly. And if it came out so strongly that I don't know

00:45:14.600 if he's going to vote for Donald Trump. And that tells me that when he was vice president, he had

00:45:19.720 to suppress that all the time. And he did a good job of that, but there was a natural antipathy for

00:45:25.480 who Trump was or what he represented or his behavior. And I don't get, I don't sense that

00:45:30.660 with any of the people, whether they're Murdoch or Tucker people, I feel like they all, for one

00:45:37.100 reason or another, they feel they're at the 11th hour of this country. And they look at Trump and

00:45:41.660 they say, this guy is the only person who on the, of all the available alternatives that's got the

00:45:47.980 agenda last time, they've got the agenda to work. And more importantly, he's indestructible,

00:45:52.960 you know, and I'm going to support him. And I don't really give a blank blank if he says something or

00:45:59.100 that because it's the countries at stake. And, and you, you have to have that solidarity at this

00:46:05.140 point and you have to have somebody who is very articulate. And when you listen to JD,

00:46:10.500 the way he handled Brett Bart, or I've been really amazed how well-spoken Marco Rubio is recently.

00:46:16.660 I know that he had drank water in that, that reply to the state of the union that time, but

00:46:20.900 he's really developed into a skill. I love that that's his sin. He drank water.

00:46:26.300 Yeah. How are we going to get past it? But no, he, the problem wasn't the water drinking. It was

00:46:30.600 that he didn't instill confidence. It's like, you just looked at him and like, I don't think he can

00:46:34.320 do it. Remember Chris Christie kind of destroyed him. He's based on his feet. Here's my, here's my

00:46:40.920 own take on it. I love JD Vance, like really love JD Vance and think he's such a good, good man.

00:46:46.380 We would be so lucky to have him in public service, whether it's as vice president, president or

00:46:50.360 Senator for a long, long time. And I think one thing that will be appealing about him to Trump

00:46:54.780 is he's young. You know, we, I've discussed it with the audience before, like the Willy Wonka

00:46:58.520 approach to successorship, you know, that I can't bring in a grownup who already has all their views

00:47:05.040 already formed and cemented. I need somebody on whom I can make an impression with my own view of how to

00:47:10.180 do things. And I think JD is young enough and hasn't been in a public service long enough that he would

00:47:15.540 qualify as someone who could take that baton from Trump and let his own views be very Trumpified.

00:47:20.980 It's already happening. Marco Rubio has got the same problems JD does in terms of past criticisms

00:47:26.960 of Trump. Marco Rubio was standing. I was the one cross-examining these guys while they were on the

00:47:31.680 stage back in 16 and beyond, right? Like he said a lot of negative things about Trump too. So he's also

00:47:37.580 going to get hit. He's not a solution to that problem. Doug Burgum might be, and Trump likes business

00:47:43.340 leaders and he loves billionaires and Burgum's very successful. And he does give me the feeling

00:47:48.000 he could run the country, but would he actually be loyal to Trump when the chips were down? And I

00:47:53.120 think Trump is, you know, he wants somebody who he can control a little bit more than a billionaire

00:47:58.100 like Burgum who doesn't need any of this. You know, he, he might be tough to control if I think from

00:48:03.580 Trump's perspective and Tim Scott might have none of these problems exactly, but I have a feeling

00:48:10.980 that Trump is not going to pick Tim Scott because Tim Scott has been so obsequious to Trump, like so

00:48:18.520 over the top. And I know Trump loves praise and all that, but I think it's undermined Tim Scott's

00:48:23.700 credibility and strength in the eyes of the voters. And Trump sees all this stuff better than anybody.

00:48:32.260 He's a great reader of people and their reactions. And I think he's kind of helped himself with Trump,

00:48:37.580 but at the same time, hurt himself in the veep stakes, which leaves us where I have no idea if

00:48:42.780 I, if I had to put money on the ones I just mentioned, um, I think I'd go with JD or Marco.

00:48:50.060 Marco's got the Florida problem too. One of them is going to have to move out of Florida because

00:48:53.520 under our constitution, you can't have both the vice president and the president running from the

00:48:57.360 same state. All right, standby. I do have to squeeze in one other break. When we come back,

00:49:00.380 we got to talk about these illegals and what happened on MSNBC. VDH stays here. Don't go away.

00:49:07.580 Victor, Joe Biden continues to try to, I don't know, split the baby by offering amnesty to

00:49:17.020 hundreds of thousands of people. Uh, these so-called DACA, um, undocumented spouses could be eligible

00:49:24.320 to stay and get, uh, benefits 50,000 children under the age of 21. They're easing work, uh, visa

00:49:31.800 processes and so on. He's basically saying you don't have to be deported if you're an undocumented

00:49:38.380 spouse or child of somebody who's here lawfully. Right. Um, which is such BS. I have to tell you,

00:49:45.300 I have a nephew. He is American. He went over to Korea. He taught little kids for several years.

00:49:52.580 He met a Korean woman. He married her. They have a child with dual citizenship. My nephew moved back to

00:49:59.060 America with his son who has American citizenship. They cannot get the mom over here. Of course they're

00:50:06.680 doing it legally, but they can't. She wants a, she wants a green card. She wants a permission to work

00:50:11.460 here. She's a lawyer. She can't get in. She can't get in to be with her son and her American citizen

00:50:16.960 husband. Um, but these illegals can because Joe Biden only favors those who do things unlawfully.

00:50:24.620 Uh, you have to break the law and then seek amnesty. And then that makes you somehow more

00:50:29.440 sympathetic. Anyway, he's doing that at the same time. He's trying to sound hawkish, um, on the

00:50:35.900 border and coming up with all sorts of new rhetoric on how he's going to crack down with these executive

00:50:40.520 orders, which are utterly meaningless. All right. Against that backdrop, because this is a massive

00:50:44.820 campaign issue, we see not one, but at least two. And there are multiple crimes that have happened

00:50:51.060 against young girls, young adolescent girls over the past two weeks. And I'm just going to take two,

00:50:55.600 uh, in the news, which Trump is just crazy. If he does not bring up at this debate there,

00:51:01.020 someone needs to answer for what's happened to these young girls. It's like what happened to Lake

00:51:05.780 and Riley. Marjorie Taylor green said, say her name at the state of the union. Somebody should say that

00:51:10.620 at this debate. It needs to be Trump in Houston, Monday, June the 17th, Jocelyn Nungari age 12

00:51:18.720 was murdered. She was, according to the mayor there walking, uh, she was at a convenience store

00:51:26.320 and was talking to her 13 year old boyfriend on the phone. She had sneaked out of her family's

00:51:30.540 apartment. The kids do that. And the boyfriend told investigators, he could hear her talking with

00:51:36.200 two people who we now believe may have lived in the same apartment complex that the young girl did.

00:51:41.420 And, uh, they left the seven 11. Then the three of them walked to a bridge and investigators say

00:51:49.580 she was strangled to death. The mayor says, uh, that she was raped on this young girl age 12

00:51:58.720 by these immigrants, illegals from Venezuela, Johan Jose Rangel Martinez, 21 and Franklin,

00:52:08.140 Jose Pena Ramos, 26, who sneaked into El Paso, Texas, Texas in May and March respectively,

00:52:14.720 and were caught. They caught them and then released them of course, which they do with virtually every

00:52:23.700 single one that they catch. And they went on to rape this girl. Both have now been caught and

00:52:29.400 charged with capital murder. Secondly, there was a little girl in the state of New York. She was just

00:52:36.700 13 and she was raped by an illegal immigrant. And this has come into the news. Um, because the,

00:52:48.700 given the, the nature of, you know, what happened, she was, she was picked up by this guy and raped

00:52:53.680 in a park in Queens. He was from Ecuador, Christian Giovanni Inga Landi, 25 years old from Ecuador.

00:53:00.960 He first came into the country in 2021. He was captured by the border control. He was released as

00:53:06.400 well. This guy was ordered to leave by immigration in 2022, but never did. He held the teen, the victim

00:53:13.000 in a teen boy at knife point before tying them up and sexually assaulting this young girl. It's the

00:53:18.100 second case that they were discussing on MSNBC of the 13 year old girl in New York, Joy Reed and her

00:53:25.120 guest, Pramala Jayapal, Democrat from Washington, member of the squad. And the reason they think the

00:53:31.800 rape of this young 13 year old girl is relevant is because Fox chose to headline it and headlines like

00:53:43.460 Fox's are what's leading people to wrongly on the demand Republican side want deportations of

00:53:52.540 illegals. Now it's not the rapes and the murders. It's the misleading Fox headlines,

00:53:59.680 which wasn't misleading at all, or just the headlining of it at all. That has them upset.

00:54:06.500 Look at this clip.

00:54:08.920 Soon Biden announces legal protections for undocumented spouses. You have citizen CNN's

00:54:13.420 banner said Biden announces new protections for some undocumented spouses. Here was Fox's banner,

00:54:18.440 migrant arrested for raping 13 year old New York.

00:54:20.280 Yes. And so I think that's part of the problem is that you have a lot of fear mongering.

00:54:26.800 That's it's they're able to laugh about it, Victor. They think it's kind of funny. It's so

00:54:30.900 funny. The fear mongering tell it to this little girl's father. Last point who said to the New York

00:54:37.700 post, it turned my world upside down. The healing process has yet to begin. My mind is really swirling

00:54:44.660 with all of the anger I have right now. When asked about his daughter's state, he simply replied,

00:54:50.020 you can't even imagine. Let's just leave it at that. But they think it's funny over at MSNBC

00:54:55.120 that they chose to highlight her condition at Fox News.

00:54:59.380 Yeah, this goes on. You know, I wrote a book, Mexifornia, 20 years ago, and it was happening

00:55:04.860 then. And I got really criticized for it because they said, you're an alarmist. That's not that bad.

00:55:09.760 But these people, Jory Reid is a multimillionaire. She's protected by her zip code or influence.

00:55:16.100 Same thing with the squad. Same thing with Kamala Harris. Same thing with Joe Biden. Same thing with

00:55:20.380 Nancy Pelosi. Same thing with Gavin. All the architects or Chuck Schumer of these policies,

00:55:26.120 it's all predicated on one thing. They live in areas or they associate in areas or they have

00:55:32.540 resources that this doesn't happen to them. It never happens to them. And it's not just the murders,

00:55:38.060 which is horrific. It's the assault. It's the rape. And, you know, where I live, Megan,

00:55:46.100 we had the cartels execute five people last year. They went into a house and just wiped them out.

00:55:53.280 And when I go, I mean, it's the little things. I pick up the Fresno Bee every day and there's a hit

00:55:59.420 and run with horrific traffic accidents and the person leaves the scene of the accident. It's a mess.

00:56:06.300 Half the half the accidents in Los Angeles County, the perpetrator leaves, the responsible party leaves

00:56:13.340 the scene. And if you if you lived on my boulevard and you drive to town one day and you see 15 people

00:56:21.300 stripped down to their boxer shorts and SWAT teams are there and then you ask them later what happened.

00:56:28.060 Well, it was gun running. It was trafficking. It was drugs. They're all illegal. And then they're all

00:56:34.800 back. Or if you're walking on your property and you turn around, you know, you turn a corner and

00:56:40.740 you've got a freezer, you've got car seats and you've got a ton of trash and it's all in Spanish.

00:56:47.200 And you ask yourself, this is an environmental desecration. You call the authorities and they say,

00:56:53.440 don't call us. Don't call us. So what I'm getting at is all of the fallout from this insane policy of

00:57:01.060 open borders falls on people that these elites who were the architects never experienced. And they

00:57:07.340 don't care. They're very callous, cruel people. They don't care about the detritus and the damage

00:57:13.520 that they do to other people. And the problem is when you have an ideology where an immigrant says

00:57:20.340 to themselves, I'm going to intentionally, the first thing I'm going to do is break the law by

00:57:25.600 illegally entering the United States. The second thing I'm going to do is illegally reside in the

00:57:31.500 United States. And the third thing I'm going to do illegally is find some type of ID or illegal

00:57:37.500 means to perpetuate what I had done prior. Then that creates an ideology and mentality that I am

00:57:44.620 protected. I'm exempt for whatever reason. These crazy Americans will punish the legal immigrant.

00:57:50.200 They'll make it, but not me. And therefore, if I have a bunch of, if I have a used dryer, I'm just

00:57:56.420 going to go out in the country and dump it. If I go to the local supermarket and I have six different

00:58:03.200 EBT cards or WIC cards, that's fine. Or if I'm going to drive and I happen to hit somebody, I'm just

00:58:08.960 going to leave the old clunker and take off. It creates a mentality. And everybody understands that.

00:58:15.060 And Joe Biden, the fact that he created this surge with 8 to 10 million people, and only now is his

00:58:25.820 election looms. Is he even trying to do something, both pandering and then feigning that he's trying to

00:58:32.120 close the border? But it reflects about this amorality of these people. They don't care.

00:58:37.800 They don't care about anybody but their own little sense that I am progressive and I am so nice to

00:58:44.980 people and I'm compassionate. But I've got to show you the next soundbite because that's exactly right.

00:58:50.840 Simone Sanders is a woman who worked for Bernie Sanders when he was running and then went on to work

00:58:58.340 for Joe Biden's reelection and then for the White House for a stint and now hosts her own show on

00:59:04.720 MSNBC. They're over there talking about these cases, how illegals murdering Americans. And she

00:59:15.540 doesn't like the use of the term illegal. Look at this.

00:59:20.880 What are they doing now? Which people? The folks, the 11 million, 20 million,

00:59:26.260 whatever you want to deport. A lot of them are committing crimes like murdering the 12-year-old

00:59:29.640 girl in Houston. In fact, that's one out of 11 million. What is the difference between an

00:59:35.360 illegal immigrant who unfortunately engages in that activity? And we don't like that. I want to be

00:59:41.320 clear. We don't do certain illegal. Yeah, we don't. Undocumented. Undocumented. Undocumented.

00:59:49.080 That's the head of the Heritage Foundation talking to former Republican Michael Steele. I mean,

00:59:55.100 they say he's still a Republican, but he used to run the RNC. Michael Steele gets chastised

01:00:00.040 in asking questions about the murder of this 12-year-old girl we just discussed and uses the

01:00:07.080 term for her perpetrator, illegal immigrant. And that's where she saw fit to jump in. You're not

01:00:14.300 allowed to refer to this murderer as an illegal. That's offensive to this person. Victor, I can't.

01:00:24.720 I don't know what to tell you about it. All I know is that both Simone and Michael Steele,

01:00:30.480 if they lived in the real Grand Valley, if they lived in rural Fresno County, if they lived in the

01:00:36.560 inner city of Chicago, if they lived in Los Angeles County, and they had to deal with this problem

01:00:43.020 every single day, the least of their worries would be undocumented, illegal. And what does she prefer?

01:00:52.060 Undocumented? Did she really believe that these people just forgot their documents and now they're

01:00:57.140 undocumented? They never had any documents. They never had any intention to get any documents.

01:01:01.540 They didn't want any documents when they came across. They came across because they felt that

01:01:07.360 there's a bi-coastal elite that's guilt-ridden and feels good about themselves when they open the

01:01:12.940 borders at other people's expenses that they never see, they don't care about, and they deprecate and

01:01:18.420 call illiberal when they have to deal with the consequences of these people's abstract ideologies.

01:01:24.420 And you know what? And that's why you're seeing a big surge for conservative candidates, not among

01:01:30.960 so-called white people, but among Mexican Americans and black people who have to deal with this.

01:01:36.940 And what's really weird just in finishing, Megan, is the Simone Sanders and the Michael Steele's and the

01:01:44.060 Joy Reid's, they are becoming to the black community exactly what the white elite became to the deplorables,

01:01:52.700 the irredeemables, the dregs, the chumps, the clingers. In other words, they're out of touch,

01:01:58.400 this bi-coastal black elite, wealthy, privileged, left-wing with the people in the inner city and the

01:02:05.200 average things that black people have to go through. The same thing is true with Latinos. The Latinos that

01:02:11.500 you see on TV that pontificate and are absolutely ideologically identical to the white elite privilege,

01:02:18.280 they have no resonance anymore with, it doesn't work anymore to say all these people are racist and we're your

01:02:24.160 champions. Trust us. No, they don't trust them. They think they're elitist and they never have to suffer what they,

01:02:30.540 the implementation of their policy and what falls on others. And that's one of the reasons that this whole black

01:02:35.640 Latino dynamic is starting to change. It's also got a class element to it. A lot of Latinos and blacks are feeling that

01:02:43.080 they have the same concerns as the white middle deplorable class and they feel that they have been

01:02:49.420 shortened and betrayed by their elites just as that white deplorable class has been by the Republican

01:02:55.960 Romneys and that part of the Republican Party and, of course, the left. And that's what they don't

01:03:01.480 understand. And they say, you know, blacks are never going to vote conservative. They're never going to vote for

01:03:06.000 Trump. There's going to be more than they ever have that will do that because of this class concern.

01:03:10.860 These people are really disreputable people. They're so selfish and callous, this elite

01:03:18.300 bi-coastal class. It really drives me crazy to listen to them.

01:03:22.140 No, no. And nor is there anything wrong with calling them illegal immigrants. That's exactly

01:03:26.200 what they are. They broke our laws to be in this country. They are here unlawfully. They are not legal

01:03:31.620 immigrants. They are illegal immigrants. There's an important distinction. And while you may not be able

01:03:36.340 to say that on MSNBC here on the Megyn Kelly show, you can say it all day long. Illegal,

01:03:41.700 illegal, illegal. That's what they were. Illegal. And they're going to understand the context and the

01:03:46.860 consequences of being illegal as a person here in America very, very soon when they face charges for

01:03:54.380 capital murder of a 12 year old. Victor, thank you. Always a pleasure speaking with you. Great to see you.

01:03:59.620 Thank you, Megan. We're back with Jonathan Turley next.

01:04:04.300 I'm Megan Kelly, host of the Megan Kelly show on Sirius XM. It's your home for open,

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01:05:01.940 Details apply. We are on Supreme Court watch this week as the justices consider two key cases that

01:05:13.500 could make or break the prosecutions against former president Donald Trump. I have to tell you,

01:05:18.000 I was very relieved. This stuff did not come out while I was on vacation. I wanted to be with you

01:05:21.180 when they hit and now I will be. It comes as a series of hearings in the classified documents case

01:05:26.440 out of Florida is going on right now and things are getting very interesting down there. Could Jack

01:05:31.500 Smith be booted off of this case as Trump's prosecutor? All this as former president Donald

01:05:38.320 Trump is just weeks away from learning whether this New York judge, Judge Mershon will sentence him

01:05:44.540 to prison in connection with the business records case. We've got the perfect guest to discuss this

01:05:51.040 and much more. You may remember his frequent appearances on my old Fox News shows and he's all over

01:05:55.860 Fox News these days as well. Today, though, it's his first time here on my current show.

01:06:01.880 Jonathan Turley is author of the brand new book, The Indispensable Right, Free Speech in an Age of Rage.

01:06:09.780 He's also a George Washington University law professor. Professor Turley, welcome back to the

01:06:14.420 show. Welcome to see you. Hi, Megan. It's great to see you. Oh, it's great to see you. I remember coming

01:06:19.580 to see you at your offices when I was just a young cub reporter. And I think I've had you on every show

01:06:25.500 I've ever had since maybe not the NBC, but everything other than that. So wonderful to see

01:06:30.840 you. And I think well-timed on this book. So what I want to get into it and I want to get into some of

01:06:36.460 the things in the news that are relevant to it. But why? Just explain why now? Well, that's a great

01:06:41.200 question because this book is 30 years in the making. I've been writing about free speech for

01:06:46.180 30 years in law reviews. These are like mini books. I am litigating in the area of free speech,

01:06:52.800 but I didn't want to publish a book until I could present a sort of comprehensive understanding of

01:07:00.020 what free speech is, but also what we need to protect free speech. And the subtitle as an age

01:07:06.800 of rage is something I've said before, but this isn't our first age of rage. In fact, this country

01:07:13.320 was born in rage. The Boston Tea Party was an act of rage. And we have struggled since then in how we

01:07:22.140 deal with rage rhetoric, how we deal with free speech. And what's interesting is when I went back

01:07:28.800 and I really took us back to the beginning and at the start of this republic, we did it right.

01:07:35.460 There was a moment of clarity that was truly revolutionary. The framers defined free speech as a natural

01:07:42.460 right, a right that belongs to us as human beings, not bestowed upon us by the government.

01:07:48.380 And that was captured in the language of the First Amendment, which is still the most revolutionary

01:07:54.080 statement of free speech in the world. There's a movement among law professors and others to amend

01:08:00.680 the First Amendment. One law professor said, it's just excessively individualistic. And this movement's

01:08:07.900 gaining steam. In fact, when my book was released, two anti-free speech books were written by law

01:08:13.940 professors saying that we have to get away from rights because these rights are interfering with

01:08:20.180 what we want to do for social and racial justice. Well, that's the fight that we are going to have to

01:08:28.080 bring. That is the opposition we face. And what happened early in the republic is that that clarity was

01:08:35.820 lost within a few years as U.S. judges re-embraced the sort of British Blackstonian view of free speech,

01:08:44.400 that it's something that we only tolerate when it's to the advantage of the democratic system.

01:08:52.020 And that allowed for endless trade-offs and the denial of free speech. And so today we are living,

01:08:58.560 in my view, the most anti-free speech period in our history. Joe Biden is the most anti-free speech

01:09:05.460 president since John Adams. But we are facing an alliance now of media, corporations, academia,

01:09:14.680 that, and Congress, and the government, that has never assembled before against free speech.

01:09:21.080 And that's what makes it so dangerous. I couldn't agree more on every word of that. I want to get

01:09:26.640 into what's happening to Trump, but you mentioned academia, and this is a good headline to kick it off.

01:09:30.700 Something extraordinary happened, even for Harvard. Out of Harvard, just today, this is breaking via

01:09:38.280 Forbes, the Harvard dean, Lawrence Bobo, a Harvard dean, he's the dean of social science over there,

01:09:45.780 and he has written that any faculty who criticize the university too severely should be subjected

01:09:55.040 to sanctions. Now this guy happens to have been one of Roland Fryer's biggest critics. Our audience may

01:10:02.440 remember Roland Fryer was the black professor at Harvard who dared to go open-minded into the question

01:10:09.760 of whether police really are guilty of bias in their interactions with black suspects, in particular when

01:10:17.240 it comes to shootings, and concluded that there's not evidence of that, that the numbers just don't

01:10:22.820 support it. And he soon thereafter lost his funding for his research lab at Harvard. They blamed it on

01:10:29.580 some false Me Too allegation that was trumped up against him. It was obvious. And he was ruined

01:10:34.400 there. He's still there, but he's been completely hamstrung, or at least he was until recently. In any

01:10:40.740 event, this guy Bobo writing, it's outside the bounds of acceptable professional conduct for a faculty

01:10:46.880 member to excoriate university leadership. He says, as the events of the past year evidence sharply

01:10:53.520 critical speech from faculty, prominent ones especially, can attract outside attention that

01:10:58.300 directly impedes the university's function. I'm happy to report that some, like Steven Pinker, who's a

01:11:04.640 more reasonable professor over there, came out and said this is downright alarming that such a stunning

01:11:10.360 argument would come from a dean who currently wields power over hundreds of professors without indicating

01:11:15.720 that he would refrain from implementing his views by punishing the faculty he oversees. He's coming

01:11:20.940 under some scrutiny. But to your point, Professor Turley. Absolutely. I wrote about Bobo, Dean Bobo's

01:11:29.680 statement on my blog. And of course, it is horrific. But it is not in any way a departure from the norm.

01:11:39.860 I have an entire chapter on higher education in the book. And it details all of these circumstances

01:11:45.640 is, you know, in most universities, they have eliminated, they purged every Republican,

01:11:51.020 conservative, and libertarian member of the faculty. These are self-reported surveys. And according

01:11:57.520 to one, 40 percent of the schools they looked at didn't have a single Republican. And so the funny

01:12:03.540 thing, of course, is that Dean Bobo doesn't have to worry because most faculties now run from the left

01:12:08.600 to the far left. So very few people actually speak out against universities. But this is in many ways

01:12:15.880 consistent with what we've seen for over 30 years. I'm a bit of a dinosaur. You know, I write in free

01:12:22.620 speech and I believe in the original idea of free speech. Now it's in vogue. If you want to get

01:12:29.100 published, you have to say that the First Amendment is a tragedy. Free speech is dangerous and harmful.

01:12:34.480 That's how they've raised these kids. We've raised a generation of speech phobics who believe that

01:12:40.620 you shouldn't have to hear opposing views. And now you have a Harvard dean that says, you know,

01:12:46.220 I could punish you for speaking out against me and other administrators. It goes against everything

01:12:52.760 we believe in as academics and as intellectuals. But that is the culture now of intolerance that we live

01:13:00.480 in. You write in the book in chapter 28, the conversion of college campuses from bastions

01:13:06.140 of free speech to the current ideological echo chambers is arguably the greatest threat facing

01:13:13.440 free speech. Completely agree with that writing. We are raising a generation of speech phobics who

01:13:19.700 have been taught that speech is harmful and that speech is protected according to its inherent value or

01:13:25.200 costs in a democratic system. This narrow view of free speech has been embedded in the minds of these

01:13:30.040 students from an early age. They've been insulated from opposing views. And I would submit, you tell

01:13:36.120 me, that is what leads to a sitting Supreme Court justice, Ketanji Brown Jackson, saying in one argument

01:13:43.180 to a litigant, my biggest concern is that your view has the First Amendment hamstringing the government

01:13:50.660 in significant ways. It's like, oh, right. Your concern is totally valid. That's why it was written

01:13:59.260 in there. No, it's a shocking statement. You're absolutely right, Megan, to bring that up. And, you

01:14:05.060 know, the impact on our campuses has been chilling. I have to tell you, I don't think I'm naive, but if you

01:14:12.320 would ask me 30 years ago when I started to teach whether higher education would ever be this

01:14:18.480 intolerant, this orthodox, I would have said you were crazy, that that's not why we went into teaching.

01:14:24.800 But I don't feel as bad for people like myself. We're a dwindling number. And I've had probably

01:14:30.960 the longest running cancel campaign in history ever since I testified in the Clinton impeachment.

01:14:36.980 But I really feel sorry for my students. You know, I talk in a book when I was at University of

01:14:42.000 Chicago as an undergrad. I loved every minute of it. It was like the Star Wars bar scene. It was

01:14:48.400 like every different view you could imagine was on campus. And I loved it all. I loved listening

01:14:55.300 to people who I thought were absolutely insane. But I love to see how they could look at something

01:15:01.220 that I was looking at and see something completely different. That is no longer the case. I mean,

01:15:07.300 students today hear largely the same view from the left or the far left. Opposing views are not

01:15:15.460 tolerated. People are canceled. Even a federal judge at Stanford was shouted down. That's part of this

01:15:23.100 new culture that you shouldn't have to tolerate opposing views. And the result is that they really

01:15:29.140 didn't have the education that you and I had when we were able to make our own choices and look at the

01:15:36.620 sort of smorgasbord of different viewpoints. Now, as I say in the book, it's a happy meal

01:15:42.980 that's prepared by the faculty and nobody's particularly happy.

01:15:48.480 Yeah, right. Exactly. So what's some of this is manifesting in the lawfare against former

01:15:55.400 President Donald Trump, whose trials you've done such an amazing job of covering. I love your blog. I go

01:16:00.280 there all the time. It's dot org, Jonathan Shirley dot org. Don't forget. Sometimes you get caught up

01:16:04.680 if you do dot com. And he's in it up to his neck today because down in that Florida case, the Mar-a-Lago

01:16:11.660 case regarding his documents and whether he turned them over or didn't and whether he should have had

01:16:16.920 them in the first place. There is some interesting stuff happening. I want to talk about whether Jack

01:16:21.520 Smith might get booted. But first, let's talk about the free speech angle on the docket today,

01:16:25.680 because the prosecution down there is trying to gag Trump. They're trying to gag him. They're saying

01:16:34.000 that he shouldn't be free, for example, to speak about the FBI and its raid on Mar-a-Lago because

01:16:42.520 they say Trump's characterization of the FBI's policy. This is via CNN about the use of deadly force

01:16:49.100 during that search could lead to threats and harassment against the FBI. Here's their evidence,

01:16:55.460 Jonathan. On Friday, the feds made a filing that said a supporter of Trump called an FBI agent and

01:17:03.880 said if Trump wins reelection, agents are going to be thrown in jail. If he doesn't win, agents are

01:17:09.080 going to be hunted down, slaughtered in their own homes. We're going to slaughter your whole effing

01:17:13.120 family. OK, a very clear threat. Who made it again? Some supporter of Trump. Some rando made a threat

01:17:22.820 against an FBI agent. And now because of that, they want Trump to be silenced in this case to the point

01:17:31.260 where, like the New York case, he won't be able to talk about it should Joe Biden raise it in a debate

01:17:37.220 on the campaign trail or when just trying to defend himself and be critical of FBI overreach. What do

01:17:44.200 make of it? Well, it's bizarre. And I'm sure you face this. Many of us receive death threats from

01:17:50.780 people on the left, but it's rarely covered by the media. They even threaten the life of my dog. And

01:17:57.260 Luna is a golden doodle, for God's sake. Who threatens a golden doodle? I can understand a

01:18:01.880 shih tzu, but a golden doodle? Who threatens that? But, you know, what is really amazing about Jack

01:18:08.320 Smith is that he has always followed Oscar Wilde's rule that the only way to be rid of temptation is

01:18:13.960 a yield to it and has always been his undoing. You know, he was reversed or unanimously by the Supreme

01:18:19.720 Court. He never shows any sense of restraint in litigation and he's not doing it now. I've also

01:18:27.000 written about that gag order that you described, Megan. It's ridiculous. It is basically gagging

01:18:33.260 a presidential candidate for talking about an entire department of the government of criticizing the

01:18:41.680 department. It is so far afield from what the purpose of a gag order is. And I've been a critic

01:18:48.360 of gag orders for over 30 years. I've never liked them. I believe they are a limit on free speech.

01:18:55.560 Hopefully, Judge Cannon is going to swat this down. But now I just wrote a column just was posted a few

01:19:02.280 minutes ago on the New York Post about these attacks on Judge Cannon that are vicious on every

01:19:08.640 single network. Now, many of these same media outlets were experiencing vapors when anyone

01:19:15.200 criticized Judge Mershon in Manhattan and said, how dare you question the integrity of this judge?

01:19:22.940 And now they are just piling on Judge Cannon because she allowed Trump a hearing on the

01:19:30.100 constitutionality of Jack's misappointment. That's that's the level of hypocrisy now is really

01:19:37.360 overwhelming. I know it's dark. And then the Florida case is driving them nuts because Judge

01:19:43.600 Aileen Cannon has been fair. She hasn't been overly friendly to Trump, but she's been fair.

01:19:49.020 She hasn't been a Judge Mershon or a Judge Angeron, and it's driving them crazy. So we'll see. And by the

01:19:56.020 way, I do want to say something to my audience right after Trump got found guilty in that,

01:19:59.460 you know, hush money, whatever documents case with Stormy Daniels.

01:20:05.260 There was a report and I quoted CBS News at the time or CNBC, and I said, this is just CNBC. I

01:20:10.960 haven't yet confirmed this, saying that the gag order has been lifted. And I said, I want to find

01:20:15.440 out whether that's true. And it has not been lifted. And even in the New York case, they're arguing that

01:20:20.480 Trump should remain gagged, I guess, indefinitely through the pendency of his appeal. So that would

01:20:27.740 take us all the way easily through the debates and the election. So in both cases, he has to just be

01:20:34.920 quiet about the the jury. He can't come out now like any normal defendant and say the jury was biased

01:20:41.620 against me. You're not allowed because you're Trump. Yeah, we think of the implications of that. You know,

01:20:47.260 you have this single judge sitting in Manhattan with a throttle control over what the leading

01:20:53.340 presidential candidate can speak in the election. And he's keeping a gag order after the verdict is in,

01:21:00.460 the jury is out, and we're just awaiting sentencing. So there is no justification for the gag order. But he's

01:21:09.980 just using it now gratuitously to silence this presidential candidate. That's what we've become.

01:21:16.700 And I have to hand it to a couple of people on the other side that said, wow, this is pretty much

01:21:21.880 out there. But most of them haven't. Because you can't, as a legal analyst, you can't say anything

01:21:28.320 that might be deemed as positive to Trump. So they're watching this abuse occur in Manhattan,

01:21:34.360 and they're not saying a thing. And that's what we've had in higher education. You know, we've had

01:21:39.400 many facts that have written me recently about they're being attacked because of the Gaza,

01:21:44.040 Palestinian protests. But these same academics have been silent for 20 years as their colleagues

01:21:50.360 have been fired and investigated. And suddenly they're discovering the value of free speech.

01:21:55.780 You have to, unfortunately, someone has to pursue you before you realize the importance of the rule

01:22:01.120 of law. You know, when we flew back in from our vacation, when we flew in from Denmark just two days

01:22:07.120 ago, we had to go through customs, right? And we have global entry. So you go with global entry where

01:22:14.000 you just look at the camera and it sees your face and then your face comes up in front of the guard

01:22:18.180 and the guard tells you you can go in or you can't. And all four of my family members, my three kids and

01:22:24.660 my husband, their faces came right up. Mine, when it took the photo, it said, see agent. And I go,

01:22:29.360 great. So I get in the long line to go see the, I see the agent, my family's through. And, uh, I say,

01:22:35.240 it said to see agent. And he goes, get in the line. Like I was just in the line. He's like, get in the

01:22:40.460 line. Okay. I go back to the line. I get back up. I'm like, it said, see agent. He goes, you need

01:22:45.440 another picture. Like, okay. All right. Could have told me. Okay, fine. So I go, I get another picture.

01:22:50.000 I go back up. I, this time I do cut the line. Cause now I've been up there twice. And he's like,

01:22:55.180 you have to wait, wait until what? I don't know. Just wait. Okay. So I have to wait. And I'm

01:23:00.580 getting frustrated. My family's waiting there. Okay. Finally, he's like, it's not in here. It's

01:23:04.740 I'm like, what, what should I do? You tell me what to do, sir. He gets very angry, starts yelling at

01:23:09.980 this other woman, follow the path. The woman doesn't even speak English. She's like, what path,

01:23:13.960 what path? Any who the bottom line. And the reason I'm telling you the story is what I was dealing with

01:23:19.180 there is a man who was drunk on his own limited power. He was given a little bit of it by the TSA or

01:23:24.680 whomever empowered him to be a customs agent at JFK. And he needed it. His little ego needed it.

01:23:31.020 And he needed to put this other woman in her place for stepping out of line. And I guess me,

01:23:34.700 because he couldn't find my face on the screen, which my son later did over his shoulder saying

01:23:39.200 she's right there. And then he had to let me through. And that's what's happening with judge

01:23:43.880 Mershon. The fact that he would try to extend the gag order past the verdict to when the jury is back

01:23:51.960 home. We don't even know the jury's identity. The papers haven't been reporting it. They haven't

01:23:57.280 been giving interviews. So even now, Trump can't come out and be like at this debate,

01:24:01.820 it was a bunch of partisan Democrats from a place that went 87 percent for you, Joe Biden. That's why

01:24:07.900 they did what they did. He could get in trouble on appeal. Democrats salivating every day on MS and CNN

01:24:13.940 about how if Trump doesn't want jail time, he better feel really sorry about those gag order

01:24:20.500 violations that he did. He needs to not do it. He needs to feel sad about it. He needs to be

01:24:26.000 apologetic for saying anything about the jury and it's partisan. I mean, that's what you have a man

01:24:30.680 drunk on his own power. Jonathan, what do you make of it? Well, I think you're you're right that in the

01:24:36.000 sense that there's no reason for this gag order to continue. So he's he's doing it for some other

01:24:41.160 reason. That gag order also keeps him from talking about Colangelo, who came from the Biden Justice

01:24:47.420 Department to help lead this case. That's a legitimate issue to talk about. Now, I'm not

01:24:53.140 saying that everything Trump has said has been established, but this is an election turning on,

01:24:59.700 in part, the weaponization of the criminal system and the Biden administration. These Democratic

01:25:05.500 district attorneys have fulfilled the narrative. They've proven it. That's what Manhattan was.

01:25:10.320 Manhattan was a raw political prosecution. We can debate Mar-a-Lago. You know, there are issues

01:25:16.800 there which are pretty difficult for the president. But Manhattan is a straight up political prosecution.

01:25:23.220 Even CNN senior legal analyst said this would never have occurred outside this district.

01:25:29.460 And he was right. Of course, he was immediately shut up. But I it's obvious to every one of us what is

01:25:37.020 occurring. You cannot plausibly argue that that case would have been brought against anyone other

01:25:42.560 than Trump because it had never been brought before. I mean, they never zapped a misdemeanor like

01:25:47.620 this. Not only do we have to listen to, you know, Ellie Honig, the CNN political analyst, but take a

01:25:53.200 listen to the former governor of New York, Andrew Cuomo, who sat with Bill Maher the other night and said

01:25:58.640 this. The attorney general's case in New York, frankly, should have never been brought. And if

01:26:04.520 his name was not Donald Trump and he wasn't running for president from the former AG in New York, I'm

01:26:09.820 telling you that case would have never been brought. And that's what is offensive to people. And it should

01:26:15.580 be because if there's anything left, it's belief in the justice system. The two trials in New York,

01:26:22.600 New Yorkers said 66 percent said the justice system is politicized. And there's nobody in New York who

01:26:32.760 likes Trump. And you want to talk about a threat to democracy. When you have this country believing

01:26:38.320 you're playing politics with the justice system and you're trying to put people in jail or convict

01:26:43.820 them for political reasons, then we have a real problem. Wow. How about that? Yeah. And, you know,

01:26:50.980 it's funny because Cuomo, I adored his father and Cuomo is a case of in the movie, The Bronx Tale,

01:26:56.360 they talked about wasted talent. I, in some ways he is, it took his own being pursued. I, and a lot of

01:27:04.200 things that were done in the Cuomo cases, I criticized because I felt that they had not given him a due

01:27:10.320 process. I felt that the, that many of these cases were handled in alarming ways, but it took that

01:27:17.340 experience for Cuomo to become a voice of clarity. He was not that way in the Kavanaugh confirmation

01:27:24.560 proceedings where he demanded Kavanaugh take a lie detector test. I, and, but it is an unfortunate

01:27:32.880 aspect to both law and free speech that you, many people require the denial of those things to

01:27:40.240 appreciate them. Hmm. I'll talk to Cuomo once he apologizes more full-throatedly and actually takes

01:27:46.580 ownership for killing 15,000 senior citizens in New York, including my dearest friends in-laws,

01:27:52.560 Janice Deans. Um, but on that point he, he raised a good issue and he's right. I mean, for him to have

01:27:57.740 said that is significant because he's of the left and he gets it. And even the left is having to admit

01:28:03.240 it. Judge Judy said the same to Chris Wallace over on CNN. All right, let's talk about what's

01:28:07.880 happening to judge Cannon because our mutual friend and colleague, Andy McCarthy has a long piece

01:28:12.380 up on national review.com right now, suggesting Jack Smith may get booted out of this Mar-a-Lago

01:28:19.620 prosecution because of the way that he was appointed. Trump's lawyers raised the case that this is the

01:28:29.780 way Jack Smith was appointed. A special counsel was a violation of the constitution's appointments

01:28:35.140 clause, uh, which says that the president is the one who shall nominate by and with consent and advice

01:28:43.320 of the Senate, um, any basically officer of the United States. Um, and he goes on to say that Jack

01:28:51.860 Smith was not chosen or appointed by the president. He was appointed by Merrick Garland. And there may be

01:28:59.460 a serious problem with his selection in this particular case that actually Andy says has a

01:29:05.100 very good chance in his view of succeeding. So do you agree that there's a real chance here? Jack

01:29:11.920 Smith could get bounced off of that prosecution. Yeah, I wrote about this today because a lot of the

01:29:17.020 criticism was about that hearing and the argument from the left, including an MSNBC legal analyst,

01:29:23.900 uh, gave the, gave judge can in a lecture, uh, saying, stay in your lane girl. Uh, you should

01:29:30.640 never have given a hearing. Other courts have ruled against this. And yes, every other courts have ruled

01:29:36.080 against us, but there's no controlling authority for judge cannon. This has never gone to the Supreme

01:29:42.020 court. So what she's doing is normally viewed as good judging. She's allowing the party to make the best

01:29:48.600 argument, including by the way, two former attorneys general, uh, who are there as amicus.

01:29:53.260 And to create a record so that this can be appealed potentially to the Supreme court. And what they're

01:30:00.440 arguing is not frivolous. And MSNBC, CNN are portraying this, like it's some kooky idea. It's not

01:30:09.080 the constitution says clearly that you need to be appointed, uh, or nominated and then confirmed by

01:30:15.960 us attorney. Uh, you have to either have that type of confirmation or you have to have an appointment

01:30:20.720 pursuant to a statute. Neither of that is present here. The independent counsel act expired. And so

01:30:28.660 what the department of justice is saying is that despite the act expiring, they can basically

01:30:34.080 circumvent, uh, the need, not the need for confirmation in the Senate. And this is precisely

01:30:40.420 why the framers wanted confirmation. Would Jack Smith have been confirmed as a type of special U S

01:30:46.960 attorney. Um, not sure about that. You know, he was reversed unanimously by the Supreme court that

01:30:54.140 would have bothered a lot of, of senators. Uh, but the question is why have this system where to be a

01:31:01.620 U S attorney, you've got to go through vetting. You've got to be, uh, not just nominated, but

01:31:05.960 confirmed or Garland can just pick a guy off the street. According to his claim of authority,

01:31:12.960 he could pick anyone. He could pick his barber and make him a special counsel. And you can't say

01:31:19.660 anything about it. That doesn't stick well with the language of the constitution. So while the odds

01:31:26.200 are against the Trump team, because these previous arguments, those judges summarily dismissed these

01:31:32.740 issues. I mean, they didn't, most of them did not grant a hearing. They decided on the, on the

01:31:37.260 pleadings and judge cannon is simply allowing oral argument to occur in this case.

01:31:42.960 And yet everyone is attacking her for doing it.

01:31:47.640 It's, it's really crazy. I, if he goes, it, the case doesn't necessarily go away,

01:31:53.140 but he's in real jeopardy now. And I know the thing about Merrick Garland is remember when we

01:31:59.280 used to think he would have been a decent choice for Supreme court, given the others that Barack Obama

01:32:05.580 was considering, right. It was like on a relative field. Okay. Merrick Garland seems like he wouldn't

01:32:10.360 be that extreme. I see him very differently now. And I read your piece the other day saying,

01:32:15.140 I think it was called the corruption of Merrick Garland. I mean, that you too see serious problems

01:32:20.740 in the way this guy has approached his role. Yeah, absolutely. You know, I, I actually called

01:32:25.920 for a vote in the Senate on Garland. I felt that he was entitled to it. I enthusiastically supported

01:32:31.260 his nomination for attorney general. And I was wrong. I mean, I hate to say it, but he's not

01:32:38.780 the Garland that most of us thought we were getting. He does. He seems to be adrift in his

01:32:44.180 own department. He's, he's not taking responsibility. He's washing his hands of everything happening in

01:32:49.720 these investigations, including that gag order from Smith. The attorney general should at a minimum

01:32:57.240 say, you know what, we don't do that. Okay. We don't do gag orders to keep people from criticizing

01:33:02.380 us. And when Jack Smith said, you know, I don't think I have to follow the DOJ policy, uh, on trials

01:33:08.680 before an election. I'm, I think I could take this trial through the election. Garland was totally silent

01:33:14.220 instead of saying, you know, here's a flash for you, Gordon, you're still part of the justice department

01:33:19.200 and you are going to honor that policy. But Garland is just absent without leave. And it's a great,

01:33:26.260 it's a great disappointment to me because I think as, as a person, he's a nice and well-meaning

01:33:31.200 person. Uh, but, uh, he is a, a, an empty suit right now at justice. Yeah. I haven't forgiven him

01:33:39.280 since domestic terrorist. Uh, that was just so insane with the parents who are speaking past their

01:33:44.700 three minutes and then got a label like that thrown around in discussing their behavior. Um, one of the

01:33:51.660 things that you point out in the book, and I love this is how the, the trickiest examples as it always

01:33:58.800 has been are the ones that muck up people's clear views of free speech. And there's been no better

01:34:07.080 example of that over the past few years than January 6th, which just in flames tempers and incites

01:34:16.180 the left in particular, anybody who has a dissenting viewpoint on it. Well, in the news this week

01:34:23.840 is a soundbite of Nancy Pelosi. And I found this very fascinating because she in the soundbite is

01:34:33.040 taking responsibility for not having secured the Capitol. And we know this because a Republican

01:34:40.980 controlled house subcommittee obtained the footage recorded by her daughter, Alexandra Pelosi,

01:34:46.160 on January 6th, 2021. And per that, uh, now GOP controlled committee, the January 6th select committee

01:34:56.860 had this same footage, but did not release it publicly. Here's the soundbite.

01:35:04.660 We have responsibility, Terry. We did not have any accountability for what was going on there.

01:35:12.320 And we should have. This is ridiculous. You're going to ask me in the middle of the thing when

01:35:18.500 they've already breached the, the, uh, inaugural stuff that, that, uh, uh, should we call the Capitol

01:35:26.480 police? I mean, the, uh, National Guard? Why weren't the National Guard there to begin with? I take

01:35:32.680 responsibility for not having them just prepare for more. Pretty extraordinary that that's now coming

01:35:40.100 out raises some serious questions about the January 6th committee and its commitment to transparency

01:35:45.340 and honesty. But you write a bit about January 6th and free speech in the books. Tell it, take us there.

01:35:51.920 Well, first of all, I, I agree with you. Uh, you know, I was critical of January 6th because they

01:35:56.560 could have been so much more, uh, but Pelosi of course did not allow the Republicans to pick

01:36:01.480 the members on that committee departing from tradition. And the result was that they presented

01:36:07.000 this univocal one-sided narrative. They would even remove whenever they quoted, uh, or played the tape

01:36:15.400 of Trump. Uh, they would not allow the public to hear him say, go peacefully to the Capitol. They even

01:36:21.440 got a producer from ABC to, to, to create this whole production. And we now know that they withheld

01:36:29.300 evidence. Uh, for example, they knew that the secret service driver was denying that the infamous scene

01:36:38.860 of the president trying to grab control of the presidential limo was completely absurd. And yet

01:36:45.120 they did not tell the public. They got witnesses to, to recount that false story all the time, knowing

01:36:52.520 it was false. And we also know, of course, that, uh, national guard troops were offered to Congress

01:36:59.140 and Pelosi and others turned them down. But when I write about January 6th in the book, and there's a

01:37:04.600 large amount of it in the book because it does capture the, the difficulty in dealing with free

01:37:10.160 speech, but it also allows us to see the path forward. You know, I was doing the coverage on

01:37:15.980 January 6th. I disagreed with the president's speech. I disagreed with his view of what Pence could do

01:37:21.300 legally. Uh, and I also disagreed with aspects of the election, uh, fraud allegations, but that

01:37:28.020 doesn't matter. The president had every right to give the speech the way he did it. In my view,

01:37:34.620 it's entirely protected speech, which is why I oppose the prosecution in DC, uh, by Jack Smith. I think

01:37:42.800 that he is prosecuting the president in part for speech protected by the first amendment.

01:37:48.040 Let's keep talking about January 6th because I, I mean, I, I completely agree with you,

01:37:52.440 president Trump. I didn't agree with his analysis and I didn't agree with his behavior after he lost

01:37:57.380 the election, but January 6th, Jose hold a special place for the free speech censors who really don't

01:38:06.140 want any free and fair conversation of it happening. Look at the blowback, even, you know, on Fox or even

01:38:12.040 within Fox, I won't ask you to criticize Fox to go because you go on there. When Tucker Carlson tried to

01:38:16.740 air other tapes of what happened that day, it just seems to be such a third rail. And so on the larger

01:38:22.540 point, what does this tell us about free speech in America? Why is it that like, they can't hear it?

01:38:29.660 They can't hear the other sides. I can't hear Nancy Pelosi say this kind of thing.

01:38:34.800 Well, it's interesting. I, when I was doing the coverage outside the Trump courthouse in Manhattan,

01:38:39.540 I was sitting next to a, a NPR reporter and she was practicing her lines, including constantly

01:38:46.880 referring to insurrectionists at, on January 6th, this is a reporter and January 6th wasn't an

01:38:52.880 insurrection as I go into in the book. It wasn't even close to an insurrection. It was a riot. It

01:38:57.460 was a protest that became a riot during the, during the coverage. I remarked before the violence

01:39:02.760 occurred, I just remarked, I've never seen the Capitol so lightly protected because our cameras went over

01:39:09.260 and it showed main entrances with just three bicycle cops. And I'd never seen it so light.

01:39:16.540 And I was not surprised when they breached the Capitol because of how they had prepared. Remember,

01:39:24.620 it was just that previous summer that riots occurred at the White House where National Guard had to be

01:39:30.860 called out. There were more people, more law enforcement injured outside the White House than there was on

01:39:37.840 January 6th. And yet they didn't put up the fencing used at the White House until after the riot was

01:39:44.900 over. And so what the book says is, look, punish people who committed property damage, punish them for

01:39:52.200 their conduct, not for their speech. That's the line of difference. Now, sure, speech can be a crime

01:39:59.960 sometimes. If you have a conspiracy to commit a crime, that's speech. But you have to establish

01:40:06.540 the crime itself. And so, for example, they use seditious conspiracy, which is something that I

01:40:12.560 argue in the book, we should just take off the books entirely. It should not be a crime. We've,

01:40:18.360 we've had a sedition addiction in this country since the founding of the Republic. And it punishes

01:40:24.340 speech. Seditious conspiracy is an effort, is another way of saying to obstruct a proceeding,

01:40:30.160 but they charge these people with that crime. So charge them with it. Don't try to create a speech,

01:40:36.940 you know, a parallel speech crime by calling it seditious conspiracy. So it is an important thing

01:40:43.700 for us to look at. It shows how we can deal with conduct without trying to criminalize speech.

01:40:50.720 Speaking of conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding, that is one of the cases that's

01:40:57.400 pending before the U.S. Supreme Court right now as a different group of January 6th protesters,

01:41:02.120 not Trump, try to challenge this claim, this case against them saying that's not a real claim that you

01:41:08.240 can bring, that you've expanded this claim well beyond what you can do as a Congress. And we're

01:41:14.820 waiting for a ruling on that. We're waiting for a ruling on whether, well, I mean, a president can

01:41:20.060 claim some sort of immunity, but how much and, you know, in what role we're waiting on that opinion.

01:41:26.600 Any thought on what's likely to happen in those two cases, which really could affect Trump directly?

01:41:31.840 Yeah, as you know, we can hear this week on one or both of those cases. I expect they're going to

01:41:35.920 add at least another day for opinions. I think we have like 14 remaining. They usually don't release

01:41:42.280 that number on the final day. The Fisher case is actually the case I think is most important.

01:41:48.580 Uh, Fisher is the case involving a January 6th defendant who's challenged the, the charge of

01:41:55.080 obstruction of a official proceeding. The interesting thing about the array of hundreds

01:42:00.300 of cases by the department of justice is they were sort of like a, a, a roulette player who would

01:42:05.860 only bet on red. I mean, every single case was that charge and it occupies the majority of charges.

01:42:14.280 If it goes against them and Fisher, all of those cases collapse, including charges pending against

01:42:21.040 president Trump. I think that there is a chance that indeed they may lose that case, uh, because

01:42:27.100 the underlying statute was designed after the Enron scandal. It was designed for the destruction of

01:42:33.360 documents. And it's now being used to include anything that might interrupt the proceeding. And

01:42:40.280 the justices made mincemeat out of the government. They said, well, what if there's a protest in the

01:42:46.280 rotunda and members can't get to the floor? Isn't that obstructing an official proceeding? And the DOJ

01:42:53.360 didn't have an answer for that. So we'll see how that goes. The immunity question obviously could have

01:42:59.000 a huge impact on that one. It was a very interesting oral argument. Unlike the coverage, which has been

01:43:06.340 absurd, the justices I thought did a really darn good job. I thought on both sides, they really

01:43:12.420 were trying to get this right. Uh, you, one of the justices said, look, we're going to do the right.

01:43:17.300 This one for the ages, because the court has avoided this question for decades and they want to get it

01:43:23.900 right. But I think the court had sticker shock on both sides. They didn't like the absolute privilege

01:43:31.300 arguments of the Trump team, but they also didn't like the lower courts absolutism. It basically gave

01:43:38.540 presidents nothing. And so there's a good chance that they may say, look, we want a more nuanced

01:43:44.580 approach here. And if this was a speech that came out of official duties, um, then it might be privileged.

01:43:52.880 The problem is that judge Chunkin was all on board in DC with Smith in trying to get a trial before the

01:44:01.320 election. And I look, I handle cases in DC. I've never seen a case move this fast. It's like the rocket

01:44:08.420 docket as we call it over in Virginia, but this is DC, which is the opposite. And she was doing all she

01:44:16.100 could to get a trial of Trump before the election. But there was a cost to that. She didn't create much of a

01:44:22.480 record because she was going so fast. So if they say, look, we want to see if this is an official,

01:44:28.680 these are official acts, they've got to send it back. And she's got to actually hold hearings.

01:44:33.480 The very thing people are criticizing Canon for, she's going to have to do serious hearings and create

01:44:40.040 a record that would make it hard to try Trump before the election. That's right. But she,

01:44:45.600 Jack Smith or whoever is, uh, could potentially drop the rest of the claim against Trump after an

01:44:56.080 adverse ruling to him by saying, okay, I'll only try you on the things your counsel admitted

01:45:00.740 you're not immune for. And that could fast track it again, potentially we'll see. I don't know. He

01:45:06.400 doesn't seem to me like a man who's willing to drop any piece of his claim, but we'll find out soon.

01:45:11.040 Okay. Uh, you made a good point the other day that I want to ask you about because as a long time

01:45:14.600 court watcher and you know, one of the best things I ever did at Fox was for three years,

01:45:18.380 I was the Supreme court correspondent and I got to sit. Oh, thank you. But I, I loved getting to sit

01:45:24.740 in that courtroom for a living and just listen to the lawyers on their toes doing battle with these

01:45:32.780 great legal minds and watch the justices when they're really fired up. And this is back in the

01:45:37.580 day when Scalia was up there and there was nobody better to watch and learn from. And you have

01:45:43.560 defended the court, which is under a coordinated attempt to delegitimize it right now by the left

01:45:49.340 because they don't have, they don't control it right now. I mean, the right didn't do this to

01:45:54.460 the court when the left had the majority of seats, but now the left is used to controlling everything,

01:46:00.180 media, corporations, academia, and so on. So they're upset. And you pointed out something I

01:46:05.660 thought was a great point the other day while I was on vacay, the Supreme court upheld the bar

01:46:10.620 on guns to those who are under domestic violence, restraining orders, eight to one in a decision

01:46:17.300 written by chief justice, John Roberts. Um, the Supreme court struck down a ban that was administered

01:46:23.980 issued by the Trump administration on bump stocks in a six to three vote. The Supreme court preserved

01:46:29.840 access to the abortion pill in a unanimous decision. And your point was people are missing the fact

01:46:38.200 because we get so focused on the most divisive cases that actually the majority of Supreme court

01:46:43.740 decisions are decided overwhelmingly in unison by the justices. And they're not five, four decisions

01:46:52.060 that are split right down the middle. The court generally can work together and whatever their

01:46:57.700 ideological approaches are can come to the same conclusion on the vast majority of issues that

01:47:03.200 come before it. Absolutely. And you know, when I, I, I teach a Supreme court class and I speak about

01:47:09.500 the Supreme court around the country. And one of the things that I do when I speak to groups is,

01:47:14.300 is to try to educate them that everything they've read about the court is wrong. That if you look at

01:47:20.180 the mainstream media, they portray this as a hopelessly divided ideological court and totally

01:47:27.360 dysfunctional, it's entirely nonsense. I mean, the vast majority of cases are unanimous or near

01:47:33.940 unanimous, but also the ones that are not, if you look at the last two weeks, the mix wasn't right

01:47:39.280 down the line. You had Kagan and Sotomayor joining conservatives in different cases. Uh, it's,

01:47:47.300 it's ridiculous. I mean, the, these justices are trying to get it right. I disagree with them on times

01:47:52.480 at times, but they are not dysfunctionally ideological. Uh, they get things done. Now,

01:47:59.440 does that mean that the, they don't break along a six, three line? Sure. They do. There are some

01:48:04.580 cases like that, but by the way, that's not so upsetting. These justices are trying to have a

01:48:11.420 consistent jurisprudential approach. And yes, that means they can be more predictable in a few of these

01:48:17.360 cases each year. But when I, I testified in favor of Gorsuch's confirmation. And I remember, I think

01:48:23.320 it was Senator Whitehouse, uh, it was either that or another hearing. He said, you know, how can you

01:48:28.600 support people like Gorsuch professor? Um, they're just robots. They just vote five, four, five, four,

01:48:35.260 five, four. It's always the same five professor, always the same five. And I said, Senator, you seem to

01:48:41.200 forget the four on the other side. It's always those four too, in those cases, but you don't view

01:48:46.220 them as robotic or ideological. You view them as right. Right. So it's so transparently dumb,

01:48:54.060 uh, to these attacks on the court, but I've never seen a period like this. The left has turned on the

01:49:00.900 court. Uh, they've supported court packing. The president didn't even come out against court packing

01:49:05.780 until midway in his term. If you remember, he refused when this issue was one of the big issues

01:49:12.320 in the presidential campaign. He refused to say how he felt about it because he said, I'm not going to

01:49:18.300 give you that. Well, really? I mean, cause it, it says something about your fealty to the constitution.

01:49:25.660 They turned on the court because they no longer control it. And they turned on free speech. The ACLU

01:49:32.140 used to be known as a leftist group. I mean, a left wing group that most Democrats supported and

01:49:38.400 donated to. And, um, they fought for free speech, no matter what the issue was. They, they thought

01:49:44.040 the KKK had the right to go out there and say what it wanted to say. And only now is everything getting

01:49:48.760 redefined. That's why this book is very important. I mean, it's, it's genuinely important. It's called

01:49:54.980 the indispensable right free speech in an age of rage. I misspoke earlier. It's actually

01:50:02.120 available right now. The wall street journal calls it a learn, a learned embracing book,

01:50:08.580 rigorously detailed and unfailingly even handed. That's that describes you to Jonathan Turley

01:50:14.640 saying, uh, ultimately though, despite the grim recounting of the assaults on free speech,

01:50:19.560 uh, yours is ultimately a buoyant book. It is buoyant. I think they've nailed you learned bracing,

01:50:27.580 rigorously detailed, unfailingly even handed, and despite some grimness on recounting the problems,

01:50:34.040 ultimately buoyant. That's you. Yes. Unfortunately, as, as, as I've gained weight with age, I'm too

01:50:41.440 buoyant. Uh, but I, if I, the book cannot be used for life-saving purposes and in water situations,

01:50:48.820 but I, I do recommend it otherwise. Definitely. I loved every minute of it. It's great to see you

01:50:55.340 again. Thanks so much for coming on. I hope to see you, Megan. Great to see you too. All right.

01:50:59.940 Don't forget indispensable, the indispensable, right. Free speech in an age of rage. We'll be

01:51:05.120 back tomorrow with Howard bloom on his new book about the Brian Kohlberger case and those Idaho

01:51:11.280 murders. Uh, this is his first big interview here on the podcast lane and he's getting, I mean,

01:51:18.780 the daily mail, everybody's trying to rip copies of this book, not, not rip, like criticize. I mean,

01:51:24.420 rip it before it's out because they wanted to steal it off the back of a truck. So they'd get the first

01:51:28.440 previews. You'll hear about it in detail for the first time here when Howard joins us tomorrow. Don't

01:51:34.540 miss that. Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - June 24, 2024

Trump Picks His VP, and Jack Smith's Election Interference, with Victor Davis Hanson and Jonathan Turley ｜ Ep. 819

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