The Megyn Kelly Show - Truth About Hegseth Smears and Leak Firings, and Shocking Details of Ellen Greenberg Case, with Steve Bannon and Nancy Grace ｜ Ep. 1054

00:00:00.600 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:12.080 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. I'm Megyn Kelly. Today we are bringing in Steve Bannon in just a

00:00:17.860 moment, but first I want to start with this news update because the story is kind of confusing,

00:00:22.280 so I laid it out for you, okay? It's about Pete Hexth and the knives are out for him. They've

00:00:28.780 not been out for him. They remain out for him, who NPR, that bastion of exclusive Trump White House

00:00:36.420 gets, is reporting maybe on his way out. They're reporting that Trump is looking for a replacement,

00:00:43.920 which Trump is denying. Now, why would NPR have a scoop like that about Trump, not matched by

00:00:51.240 Fox News or any other outlet? Ask yourself that. Here's how we got here. Someone at the Pentagon

00:00:57.740 has been leaking to the press about very serious matters, even top secret matters,

00:01:04.220 like the report that appeared on NBC News in mid-March revealing that the White House had

00:01:10.000 directed the Pentagon to draw up options to increase American troop presence in Panama to advance the

00:01:17.640 president's goal of reclaiming the Panama Canal. What was that doing on NBC News? The report was

00:01:23.980 very specific. It stated, quote, U.S. Southern Command is developing potential plans for partnering

00:01:31.100 more closely with Panamanian security forces to the less likely option of U.S. troops seizing the

00:01:39.340 Panama Canal by force, end quote, citing, quote, two U.S. officials familiar with the planning.

00:01:45.940 The Department of Defense began investigating those leaks and made it known in the press that they

00:01:53.960 would be using polygraphs to get to the bottom of who was behind them. Now, as with any time a

00:02:00.580 threat like that makes its way into the public eye via the news, one has to wonder, are they really

00:02:06.580 going to polygraph everyone or are they just setting some sort of a trap? For example, first person to

00:02:11.800 complain about the polygraph is likely someone you want to polygraph or at least look into. Now,

00:02:17.440 in the course of that investigation, Defense Secretary Hegseth wound up firing three of his top

00:02:22.640 aides on Friday. It happened. They were escorted out of the building. Those fired include some who had

00:02:28.860 been close to Secretary Hegseth before he became secretary, like senior advisor Dan Caldwell, who had

00:02:35.840 worked with Pete at Concerned Veterans for America for some nine years. Also fired Deputy Chief of Staff

00:02:43.120 Darren Selnick and Colin Carroll, Chief of Staff to the Pentagon's deputy secretary. A fourth staffer,

00:02:50.400 a press aide named John Elliott, also parted ways with the Pentagon, supposedly because he didn't want

00:02:55.920 to be second in command of the comms shop. But there's some real sour grapes with this guy. He ran

00:03:01.760 too political, first of all, a left-wing rag, to say the Pentagon is in disarray under Secretary

00:03:07.500 Hegseth and predicted that Hegseth will be fired by President Trump. Almost immediately after,

00:03:13.280 Don Trump Jr. took to X and made clear that this guy, Mr. Elliott, is not America First,

00:03:19.180 though he claims to be, and is officially exiled from the movement. He's not happy with this guy,

00:03:25.260 Elliott. The three alleged leakers, however, remain a bit of a mystery. Why would Pete's top aides,

00:03:33.220 including his friend Dan Caldwell, allegedly leak to NBC News about alleged war plans involving the

00:03:40.940 Panama Canal? And there were other leaks, too, like that Elon Musk went over to the Pentagon. There

00:03:45.300 were a few of them. It wasn't just the one. But this one would be top secret.

00:03:49.660 All we know for sure is that Dan Caldwell appears to be part of MAGA's more non-interventionalist

00:03:58.060 wing, which is fine. That's probably how Trump won the election in large part. There's absolutely

00:04:03.160 nothing wrong with being non-interventionalist. I think the Republican Party in general has had it

00:04:07.380 with the forever wars and the more bellicose nature of some of the parties. Certainly the neocons

00:04:11.900 have become otherized and almost enemies to that strain of the party. So there's nothing wrong with

00:04:18.780 Dan Caldwell feeling that way. And he does appear to feel that way. But the question is,

00:04:23.800 was that view abhorrent to the people who fired him? Mr. Caldwell seems to think so.

00:04:31.300 He went on Tucker's podcast last night with his first remarks since he got the ax. And in that

00:04:36.980 exchange, Caldwell suggests that he was forced out of the Pentagon, not because he leaked anything to

00:04:41.860 any member of the press, which he denies doing, but because he is anti-war with Iran due to his

00:04:49.600 experiences in Iraq. It started really pushing me to where I'm at now in foreign policy. Like,

00:04:57.440 we need to do something differently. And it kind of radicalized me in a certain way on this. And really,

00:05:06.380 there's an argument that you need to be, when you're talking about foreign policy,

00:05:11.520 you kind of need to be cold and detached. Like some people say that realists need to be cold

00:05:15.520 and detached. I don't necessarily buy that. But, you know, when I hear about launching

00:05:25.080 a new military operation, somebody talk about something, my first thought is,

00:05:29.620 what's it going to be like for the guys? What's it going to be like for the boys that are going to be in

00:05:34.460 front? Now, the suggestion implies that Secretary Hegseth, or those who suggested to Hegseth that

00:05:42.700 Caldwell be fired, feel differently than Caldwell does there. Though I can tell you myself, from many

00:05:49.440 conversations with Pete over the past six months, he is far from a neocon. We've talked all about it.

00:05:56.200 He was much more pro-war as much of the Republican Party was back during the Bush years. He signed up. 0.83

00:06:01.680 He left Princeton to go fight. I mean, he was in that mindset, which most of us were post 9-11.

00:06:08.380 That's why he volunteered and fought at Gitmo and in Iraq and in Afghanistan. But he's had a serious

00:06:15.400 change of heart from and thanks to those experiences, much like Caldwell. Pete is not a neocon.

00:06:23.080 Honestly, President Trump is the one making the most noise about bombing Iran. And Pete's job is to do 1.00

00:06:29.280 what President Trump tells him. Remember this from February with Trump?

00:06:33.600 You cannot allow Iran, or just about anybody else, by the way, but especially Iran, because they are 1.00

00:06:40.440 very militant. I mean, they're very, very militant. You can't allow them to have a nuclear weapon. But

00:06:45.240 there's two ways of stopping them, with bombs or with a written piece of paper. I think Iran would 1.00

00:06:52.220 love to make a deal, and I would love to make a deal with them without bombing them.

00:06:57.140 Okay. I mean, that's good. But Trump hasn't taken military action against Iran off the table. It's,

00:07:03.780 of course, what Israel wants. They want the green light for them to do it, which, of course, will draw 0.79

00:07:07.800 all of us into a military conflict with them and their supporters as well. This is one of the topics

00:07:12.520 of conversation that Caldwell and Tucker got into today. Well, I listened to it today, but it hit last

00:07:17.740 night. Well, we can confirm, based on our own reporting, that Mr. Caldwell did not have his

00:07:25.040 phone searched, nor was he polygraphed, before he was escorted out of the Pentagon. He told Tucker

00:07:30.700 that as well. But we do have to point out that those are not the only ways one can be discovered

00:07:35.860 as a leaker. One of the ways they used to track confidential information at my old law firm, for

00:07:41.120 example, was to make everybody log in before they could print a document. Do you have that at your

00:07:44.720 company, maybe? If you work with sensitive information, they make you do that. That was

00:07:49.020 one of the controversies over at the Supreme Court when they leaked the Dobbs decision. Remember,

00:07:52.700 they were like, don't they have this system already where nothing can be printed without

00:07:56.900 somebody logging in their ID number first? Anyway, nothing got printed at my law firm without a record

00:08:04.580 of who did it. That's just one possible way of finding a leaker, not to mention one's desktop

00:08:08.980 computer records or email records or possible intra-office comms between loose-lipped staffers.

00:08:17.440 So, you know, with all due respect to Mr. Caldwell, it doesn't really answer the question

00:08:20.920 definitively to say they didn't take his phone and they didn't give him a polygraph before they

00:08:24.940 fired him. We don't know what they did at the Pentagon that led them to believe Dan Caldwell and

00:08:31.440 those two others needed to go. Now we have more questions like will Caldwell and these other two

00:08:37.800 turn over their phones voluntarily to the Pentagon? Will they volunteer them? Will the other two,

00:08:43.480 you know, come forward and offer their own defenses? Will these three voluntarily return

00:08:48.660 any laptops or other electronics given to them by the Pentagon? Will they allow the Pentagon to search

00:08:55.860 their personal laptops? I mean, all of this can be obtained rather easily by a warrant, which may

00:09:02.500 well yet be heading Mr. Caldwell's way, as well as the way of his two now fired colleagues. Because

00:09:09.740 while Caldwell told Tucker he would likely already be under arrest if he'd been caught leaking, the truth

00:09:14.520 is that oftentimes, in fact, I think a lot of the times they fire the suspected leakers. They continue

00:09:20.260 their investigations because they don't want them having ongoing access to confidential information. So they

00:09:24.840 fire them. They continue the investigations. And then when and if they have enough to charge the

00:09:29.200 person, then comes the indictment, the handcuffs and the arrest, all of which could, I don't know,

00:09:33.580 but could potentially be in these guys' future. I mean, now is the time for these three to be

00:09:37.620 cautious. I was kind of shocked to see the one on Tucker's podcast. I mean, he's clearing, he's going

00:09:42.780 on offense saying I was fired from my Iran views, not because I leaked. We don't know whether that's

00:09:47.740 true. We just don't know right now. I mean, I can tell you this, when three people are accused of

00:09:52.580 participating in the same allegedly illegal scheme, one and only one has the opportunity to cut a deal.

00:09:57.920 One and only one has the opportunity to cut a deal. And the first one into the Pentagon to say,

00:10:02.800 choose me, is going to get a great one. Anyone after that could be looking at prison time,

00:10:06.660 potentially. If in fact, the Pentagon has evidence on leaking that it certainly seems to feel it does.

00:10:14.500 All right. Getting back to the main story, though, since those terminations,

00:10:17.400 it's been an all out assault on Pete Hegseth in the press. So when you read these hit pieces on Pete,

00:10:23.300 you have to keep that in mind. This isn't coming out of nowhere. He did nothing to these people.

00:10:29.120 He was running the Pentagon. Then somebody leaked top secret information to NBC News. Then they opened

00:10:36.320 up an investigation at the Pentagon to figure out who did it. And the next thing we knew, these guys got

00:10:41.780 fired. And now suddenly the field is flooded with hit pieces on Hegseth. The White House has made

00:10:47.780 clear they think it's these guys behind these. This is what happens when the entire Pentagon is

00:10:53.820 working against you and working against the monumental change that you are trying to implement.

00:10:58.240 And unfortunately, there have been people at that building who don't like the change the secretary is

00:11:03.820 trying to bring. So they are leaking and they are lying to the mainstream media. We've seen this game

00:11:08.300 played before. The secretary is doing a tremendous job and the president stands strongly behind him.

00:11:14.660 I mentioned that guy, Elliott. He wrote a direct hit piece under his own name,

00:11:18.600 Politico, arguing, quote, from leaks of sensitive operational plans to mass firings,

00:11:23.940 still pissed about Doge. The dysfunction is now a major distraction for the president.

00:11:28.780 So what is he talking about? He's talking about these leaks, which they investigated and just fired

00:11:32.440 three people, four. Elliott was not part of that firing. He's something else. And mass firings,

00:11:39.140 Doge. That's the dysfunction. What's the dysfunction? People leaked. And unlike in previous

00:11:45.800 administrations, Hegseth's trying to do something about it. And yeah, Doge hit the Pentagon,

00:11:50.780 same as it hit the other administrative branches. What's the dysfunction, Mr. Elliott?

00:11:56.580 And went on to say, try to play to Trump's vanity, saying the president deserves better from his

00:12:00.300 senior leadership. And he predicted Pete will be fired. Elsewhere, we have just been seeing the

00:12:06.380 drip, drip, drip of the chaos narrative, including news that Pete allegedly had a second signal chat

00:12:12.320 going about those Houthi attack plans. This one, not with all the, you know, administration officials,

00:12:19.060 but with people who are close to him, his personal advisors, meaning his brother who works with him at

00:12:24.440 the Pentagon now, his attorney who also works with him at the Pentagon, he's military, and his wife who

00:12:29.400 doesn't work with him at the Pentagon, uh, and would be a controversial person with whom to share,

00:12:34.660 you know, his Houthi attack plans, which again, the Pentagon is saying we're not classified.

00:12:40.880 And that could be because they would have, that would have to be because he had declassified them

00:12:45.100 prior to sharing them with anybody. Mr. Trump asked about all of this, all of this yesterday,

00:12:50.480 does second signal chat and the, uh, narrative around Pete made very clear. He stands by Hegseth.

00:12:57.400 Do you remain confident in the access? Do you remain confident in the access?

00:13:00.600 Oh, total.

00:13:01.340 President Trump, why, why do you even ask a question like that? We have recruitments that's at an all-time

00:13:07.320 high, the spirit in the armed forces is fantastic. Are you bringing up signal again? I thought they

00:13:13.000 gave that up two weeks ago.

00:13:14.240 There was a new report this weekend that he used in a separate chat that included some family members.

00:13:18.540 It's just all, it's all, uh, just the same old stuff from the media.

00:13:24.140 I said, that's an old one. Try finding something new.

00:13:27.760 Which is good because Pete is not a neocon. He's not a war hawk. He's not a chaos agent.

00:13:34.540 We live in one of the most dangerous times since the end of the Cold War. There's just no doubt

00:13:37.680 about it. You've refined it. But I've also, I'm also the product of two decades of war in Iraq and

00:13:41.380 Afghanistan, where my view shifted a great deal from where it was to where it is today, because you

00:13:47.640 would have to be a fool to look at the outcomes in Iraq and Afghanistan and think that what we

00:13:54.200 got out of them was beneficial to American national security interests. And that's not to take away 0.98

00:13:58.920 from every vet who gave everything. I was one of them. Those last vet, those last folks in Afghanistan,

00:14:04.520 the 13 we lost, the people who fought for the places that ISIS took back. Like that investment,

00:14:09.000 that fight, that mission is real. And I love all of it. But we have to be realists and clear-eyed

00:14:14.120 about what that intervention meant. The finite resources that we have, the debt that we have,

00:14:19.240 the threats that we have, the responsibilities our allies have to show in Europe if they want to

00:14:24.840 defend that continent. The reality of the outcome in Ukraine, Donald Trump's been very clear about

00:14:29.480 that, but that he wants to end it right away. He's a war fighter who has helped already the Army,

00:14:37.240 Navy and Air Force get on track for record recruiting years, who is eliminating woke from our armed forces,

00:14:42.120 who is restoring lethality to our military by making sure standards are uniformly high,

00:14:46.280 and much, much more. So here to help unpack some of this Republican on Republican violence is Steve

00:14:53.320 Bannon, host of Bannon's War Room. You know those rare occasions where you can actually sleep in,

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00:16:11.660 slash MK. Buy one, get one 50% off at the number threedayblinds.com slash MK. Steve, welcome back.

00:16:18.980 What do you make of all this? Well, you know, having worked in the Pentagon after I came off sea duty back

00:16:24.300 the first day that President Reagan came, I was there for, I don't know, three, three and a half,

00:16:29.280 almost four years. There's one thing about controlling that building and another thing

00:16:34.260 about being President Trump's senior national security advisor for the military. I think this

00:16:40.540 goes back, and I think Caldwell, people got to watch that Tucker interview. I think there's some

00:16:48.200 deep and disturbing truths in that. This is, I, and I think the leaks and all this stuff is, is,

00:16:55.240 is the, they're wanting us to chase rabbits here. The core of this to me gets down to,

00:17:02.060 you said Republican or Republican, Megan. I think it's almost even deeper than this. This is about

00:17:07.300 the America first national security policy and about how we've had been a neoliberal neocon

00:17:13.660 country for 40 or 50 years. This gets down to, I believe, this whole strategy in the Middle East 0.85

00:17:21.940 and, and people like Caldwell, who came from the Koch's defense priority, which essentially also

00:17:26.680 made Pete and transformed Pete. And years ago, they were looking to do that, transform him from a

00:17:32.740 Fox news host to someone who could go into senior levels of national security by giving him some of

00:17:39.260 these veterans groups and others that would promote him something over and above just a media figure.

00:17:43.660 Uh, I think it shouldn't be lost on anybody that this comes up. And I say this with total respect

00:17:50.580 for Tucker, who I respect. And I, I consider a friend and a colleague, um, that, uh, you know,

00:17:57.100 what our show and, and, and our part of the mega base were quite, or at least, at least two thirds

00:18:02.680 of our audience, 70% are very pro Israel in the defense, but we're very anti, uh, any type of

00:18:08.940 military conflict with Persia about these nuclear sites. I think this comes down to a fundamental

00:18:15.400 break, break between, between the defense priority guys and the Koch organization, which is much more

00:18:22.500 isolationist, much more bringing it all home versus people who are engaged, want to understand we have

00:18:28.380 to be engaged in the world. We have to have a national security policy, even around hemispheric

00:18:32.020 defense that is forward leaning, but we don't want to lead with military. We want to lead with

00:18:37.800 economic warfare and others. And I think that's where this rift is. It shouldn't be lost on in

00:18:41.980 your story, which I thought was a brilliant, uh, overview of this and bringing in all the elements,

00:18:45.820 you know, BB Netanyahu has come here twice in the last four or five weeks. One time president Trump

00:18:52.620 literally blew up the conversation with Trump, Gaza, which kind of came out of nowhere. And,

00:18:58.700 and cause BB was here to pitch the United States being a part of an active part of a, uh, a military

00:19:05.500 support for at least an air assault, maybe even a ground assault into Persia to take down, uh, their 0.99

00:19:11.620 nuclear facilities, which would be catastrophic from military view. If you know what the damage

00:19:16.140 assessment would be, he came back, you know, under the, under the headline of tariffs, but he was here

00:19:22.280 to make a second pitch because president Trump did not engage the first time. And president Trump

00:19:26.600 basically told him in front of the world, Hey, by the way, we're starting negotiations one-on-one

00:19:30.940 with no, uh, no, no participation of Israel, uh, with the Persians starting next week in Oman.

00:19:37.400 And now it's going to continue again in Rome, uh, you know, this weekend, uh, with which I'm sure

00:19:43.560 the president being there for the Pope's, uh, the Pope's, um, funeral may even participate or have

00:19:50.040 some sort of more direct involvement. So I think this gets down to, and I think we ought to get on the

00:19:55.240 table. It gets down to the situation with Israel and people like Tucker and Kurt Mills and other

00:20:00.100 brilliant people who I think the world of saying, Hey, for too long, we've had the tail wag the dog,

00:20:05.860 right? And president Trump and others who are supporters of Israel saying, Hey, look, this has to be

00:20:11.600 part of an American national security policy. And we have to have this. And I don't totally agree with

00:20:17.760 president Trump about a piece of paper, but it has to be something other than a military conflict. I

00:20:22.580 don't think it's lost on people that the Pentagon has been accused under Pete and with these guys

00:20:28.040 of not having detailed plans and support criteria ready to, to basically jump in here and have it.

00:20:36.020 They've, they've kind of slow walked it. And I think the reason they've slow walked it is that there is

00:20:40.300 this president Trump. And he said it again the other day in the, in the, in the press briefing,

00:20:44.620 the press avail on the oval that he wants peace. He wants a peaceful way to settle this. Uh, I don't

00:20:51.360 like the very, and he's got his top guy, Whitcoff on the negotiation. This, I don't like the V word.

00:20:56.460 I don't like verification. I think this has to be taken down piece by piece. And I think we have

00:21:02.440 to go up the escalatory ladder on economic warfare. Number one, my question is why are we allowing,

00:21:09.880 you know, they say 1.5 million, but it's really almost two and a half million barrels of oil a day

00:21:15.880 to leave Iran that funds the mullahs, uh, and goes through the Straits of Hormuz, uh, to, uh,

00:21:21.980 through Straits of Malacca to China. And it's 22% to 25% of China's, uh, output of which, oh, by the

00:21:28.360 way, we're engaged in an economic, uh, war right now. I think go up the escalatory ladder, uh, which

00:21:34.540 would say, Hey, I I've been in a carrier battle group, you know, off the coast of Iran for the hostage

00:21:39.540 crisis in the, in the Persian Gulf. We've got two carrier battle groups right now in the Red Sea,

00:21:44.780 keeping the Suez Canal open, just move one over, you know, over to in front of the Straits of Hormuz

00:21:50.020 and let's do a blockade, a naval quarantine of everything. And you'll, the mullahs will be gone

00:21:55.160 in a hundred days. Now you're going up the escalatory ladder, but I think all of this in

00:21:58.440 the Pentagon gets down to a major fissure on really our national security policy going forward.

00:22:05.520 And are we prepared to get sucked back into an open conflict in the, in the Middle East again?

00:22:10.440 I don't think you're wrong. And I, but I wonder who they're fighting.

00:22:14.780 I think they're fighting Trump, not Pete. You know, Pete is Trump's execute. Like Pete will do

00:22:21.380 what he is told to do. And Trump has had, he hasn't been as non-interventionalist as the,

00:22:27.760 that core strain of MAGA, right? Like he bombed Soleimani, his rhetoric around Iran has been

00:22:32.940 a lot more bellicose than I think some in the party would like to hear. We do not want saber rattling,

00:22:38.960 suggesting our boys are going to have to go fight a war against Iran at all, much less than have to

00:22:44.840 do it. But I think what, like my take on this story, this is my own opinion based on the facts

00:22:50.120 as I just laid them out, is that probably there is a strong anti-interventionalist strain within

00:22:56.920 the Pentagon. A lot of these, you know, and this guy Caldwell's former military too. He fought abroad

00:23:02.640 and saw horrible things. And I think a lot of those guys like Pete got to the place where they

00:23:08.000 do not want us to be too trigger happy. And so I'm not saying Caldwell leaked the, those top secret

00:23:14.940 documents to NBC news, but it certainly could have been him. And it looks like the Pentagon thinks it

00:23:20.800 was him. And if he were to do it, why would he do it? Well, because those documents were about

00:23:24.820 possible war down in Panama, possible use of armed forces in Panama. It's possible there is a strain

00:23:31.280 even within the Pentagon. That's even more to just make it easy to understand dovish than those in

00:23:36.580 charge and certainly more dovish than Trump. I, I, I see your analysis and I'm a disagree. And here's

00:23:42.320 why I think there's not, and this is about, this is why the promotions under Bush and Obama and

00:23:47.100 president Trump the first time with Madison, these guys, you know, we took, we took down the

00:23:51.680 caliphate, but, but remember the center of gravity of us foreign policy and military in the defense

00:23:57.560 contractors is big army, big operations in CENTCOM in the middle East. It shouldn't be lost you on

00:24:03.040 the chats. When you do on the signal chat, the one thing that jumps off the page at you is president

00:24:08.680 Trump is not engaged with these guys in a real time basis. Who is he talking to in a real time?

00:24:13.320 Go back and look at the chats. They're kind of throwing up ideas and Pete's getting them up to speed.

00:24:17.520 They're directly talking to combatant commander and CENTCOM on the Houthis thing. President Trump's

00:24:22.600 engaged directly with the combatant commander right there. CENTCOM. CENTCOM is the center of

00:24:27.160 gravity. This is why Obama failed on the pivot to Asia. All the pivot to Asia. Let me just keep it

00:24:33.600 simple for me, but keep it simple for me. Why would somebody, and again, with all due respect to again,

00:24:39.000 Dan Caldwell, who I want to underscore is denying that he leaked anything, but why would someone like

00:24:44.360 that leak the alleged war plans? I mean, the report was that Trump had asked the Pentagon to drop war

00:24:52.440 plans against the Panama, against the Panamanians, basically to retain the Panama. Why would they

00:24:57.940 leak that? Here's why. Because, because the strategic endeavor of president Trump is a hemispheric

00:25:02.720 defense. It's to get off the Eurasian landmass in a direct military conference. Look, you look at NATO,

00:25:08.780 you look at the Gulf Emirates in the Middle East, you look around to the Straits of Malacca,

00:25:12.620 the South China Sea, you look up to Korea and Japan. Around the rim of the Eurasian landmass,

00:25:16.940 where we fought all the wars of the 20th century, you have America. You have American commercial

00:25:21.780 relationships, trade deals, capital markets, but it's underwritten by an American security guarantee.

00:25:26.940 This is why we have a trillion dollar defense budget. This is why the kids, the sons and daughters

00:25:32.460 of the deplorables on two carrier battle groups in the Red Sea to keep the Suez Canal open for Europe.

00:25:38.620 What president Trump has said in Panama central to this, for the non-interventionists, or at least

00:25:43.500 to tone it down, we're going to shift to a hemispheric defense. And that hemispheric defense

00:25:47.880 is going to go from the Panama Canal, initially from the Panama Canal, which we're going to control

00:25:52.440 to block the Chinese and Russian Navy from meeting in Caribbean, all the way up to Greenland,

00:25:57.400 where we're going to block the Russian Navy from coming through Murmansk and Archangel,

00:26:01.660 coming down to the North Atlantic to basically put ballistic missile submarines off of New York

00:26:08.760 so they can launch in the United States and fast attacks down off of Norfolk and all of our ports

00:26:12.740 on the East Coast. Also, you talk about Canada and the Arctic, that's part of the hemispheric defense.

00:26:18.200 Pete Hex's first visit outside of Panama was to go to the three island chain, Hawaii, Guam,

00:26:24.360 and the Philippines to talk about the vast Pacific, as that is the natural defense of the United States.

00:26:29.700 President Trump's strategy is brilliant. And Marco Rubio's first trip as Secretary of State

00:26:33.240 was down to Panama. Go ahead, keep going. Panama. Yes, and hey, the guys in the Panama,

00:26:38.640 the defense contractors are smart people and they're tough. They ran Elon Musk out of there

00:26:43.200 in a second. He hasn't done anything about the Pentagon. These are the original gangsters, okay?

00:26:48.740 They're OGs and they said to go, hang on, the hemispheric defense is the way you cut the defense

00:26:53.280 budget down from a trillion dollars to $500 billion and really defend America. And then on expeditionary

00:26:58.880 forces, you can pick and choose wherever you go for that. But we're all for the Eurasian landmass.

00:27:07.820 Okay, but wait, but you got to help me because if that whole, if that, what you were saying ended

00:27:13.280 with and is, was, and Dan Caldwell is a neocon who doesn't want that. He wants, he doesn't want

00:27:19.740 defense department budgets to be slashed. He wants us to be more interventionalist in,

00:27:24.220 in Eurasia and he doesn't want us to be focused on Panama. But he's not, he's aligned with Tucker.

00:27:33.160 He's aligned with Tucker, but that's the people turfing him out. Remember he's the one turfed out.

00:27:37.720 Look, I'm not a huge Dan Caldwell fan originally. He's okay. He's one of these Coke guys, the defense

00:27:43.020 priorities, which are total isolationists and kind of support what I would call hemispheric defense.

00:27:48.220 The reason he was turfed out and they leaked, they leaked the, and I'm not so sure he leaked it

00:27:54.120 allegedly leaked, but the, the Panama war plans, I'm not so sure he actually leaked them. We'll

00:27:58.980 have to find that over time is they're trying to get rid of the Tucker, the people more aligned 0.94

00:28:03.780 with Tucker Carlson, the defense priority guys who Pete really came from that area. That's why Pete

00:28:08.560 sitting there going, you know, it's his chief of staff, these other guys, it looks like the

00:28:12.660 building's coming after Pete. I think this comes down fundamentally and what your audience

00:28:16.820 started to think of, there's two separate ways you can look at American national security

00:28:20.760 in the 21st century. President Trump is presenting a radical, but a plan that goes back to our

00:28:27.400 founders in the, in the Monroe doctrine and manifest destiny about you take care of the

00:28:32.540 Western hemisphere. If you secure the Western hemisphere with the vast Pacific, which is as

00:28:37.360 big as the Eurasian landmass as a defense. And you, and you take care of the Russian Navy from

00:28:42.960 the Arctic and from Greenland and from Panama, you've basically hermetically sealed the United 0.92

00:28:47.500 States. This is why he's also talking about a iron dome type thing or anti-ballistic missile.

00:28:52.640 Once you've done that, you've hermetically sealed the United States and probably had the potential

00:28:57.140 of cutting our defense budget by half. Okay. If you continue, and the plan of what the Pentagon

00:29:03.220 has is not sustainable. If you continue this madness of us being everywhere and having troops

00:29:09.040 everywhere and having, you know, from Ukraine to the middle East to everywhere, you're, you're,

00:29:13.480 you're going to bankrupt the nation. And I think that's the fundamental thing. And you're seeing

00:29:16.840 turmoil and Pete does not have control of the building. I'm a huge Pete fan. We, we went fixed

00:29:21.820 bayonets on Pete when he was almost tossed over for Ron DeSantis very early in the confirmation phase.

00:29:27.900 So our, our, our audience is a hundred percent back of Pete. We want Pete to stay, but this gets to

00:29:33.600 deeper and they're coming after Trump. That's why this is the deep state. Marco Ruby today had a

00:29:38.640 huge restructuring of the state department. You're going to see, and they leaked it on Sunday with

00:29:43.180 some false things. The deep state was the national security council, whether it's at DNI, whether it's

00:29:49.140 at CIA state department, or particularly the Pentagon is trying to put a siege mentality on president

00:29:54.720 Trump that he can't take any actions he wants to do to basically implement Megan, the America first

00:30:01.220 national security strategy. And this is a live fire exercise. They're out for Pete Hexeth. And I

00:30:06.340 think NPR is based on, I think Ron DeSantis is out there telling people you should have picked me at

00:30:12.400 first that who's you going to trade out Pete on. I'm in the bullpen. I'm ready to go. And the

00:30:17.540 Republican establishment would love that. Oh, wow. There's a, there is something coming in from

00:30:22.820 left field. That is, is Ron DeSantis, the source that NPR is basing. It's they're out looking for

00:30:28.920 others because Eric Erickson, a conservative commentator was all over X last night saying

00:30:32.760 he's hearing it too, from white house staffers. Um, I'm being assured it's not true. Uh, and Trump

00:30:38.700 himself on camera yesterday saying it's not true with, with no wiggle room, you know, Trump knows

00:30:42.940 how to leave himself a little wiggle room, but he gave a full throat throat endorsement of Pete.

00:30:46.840 I, I remain confused. I don't, I still don't get it. If Caldwell's the leaker of the Panama canal

00:30:52.820 attack plan news, that would be something that would be done by someone who is, I think,

00:30:58.620 extremely dovish, which he sounds like he is, but he, in that interview with Tucker sounded more

00:31:04.720 pro protecting Panama canal than getting involved in Iran. So it doesn't make sense to me that he's

00:31:10.960 the leaker to NBC. And that's a point in his favor. In any event, we'll find out eventually,

00:31:15.440 because we're going to know they, unfortunately, I think you're, I think, I think your summary was

00:31:20.440 brilliant. I think your summary is brilliant. And I think folks really ought to focus on this

00:31:24.200 because it gets to, if you see the way they're coming at president Trump to the judiciary and

00:31:28.960 the courts, the deep state, and this is my problem. When I hear Pete talking about, we're going to have

00:31:33.840 an investigation and light all this, and we're going to put it to DOJ. Hey, this thing right now

00:31:38.920 in DOJ should be number 20. I mean, people have to wake up. We have to have a sense of urgency right

00:31:44.480 now. We are burning daylight. We're 18 months away or however long away from the midterm elections

00:31:49.320 where if, if, if, if they raise $2 billion and flip a couple of seats in New York and California,

00:31:55.000 Hakeem Jeffries is going to speak at the house. They're going to impeach Trump in the first weeks

00:31:58.200 of, uh, of not going to remove him, but impeaching. We're going to get to this whole thing again.

00:32:02.680 And people are not at DOJ at FBI and others are not moving quickly enough and fast enough for the

00:32:09.000 sense of urgency and even CIA and DNI of taking down the deep state. These people are at war with

00:32:15.320 president Trump. What's happening to Pete Hegseth is part of that war and we have to stop it by

00:32:20.280 direct action. You just can't sit there and wish it away. And don't think that the election in

00:32:24.540 November means anything to these people. They're dug in now more than ever and understand they need to

00:32:29.520 get rid of Trump and they need to get rid of Trump ism. Mm-hmm. That's exactly right. They'd be

00:32:34.660 thrilled to get Pete Hegseth's scalp. Uh, they couldn't care less. They don't, they don't think

00:32:39.080 there's chaos. They don't think they don't care about any of that. They just want to scalp

00:32:42.680 anyone on team Trump will do sec def would be brilliant in their minds. That's all they care

00:32:48.060 about. And I think Trump should stand by him and not show them that he'll roll over, uh, based on

00:32:53.460 Politico and NPR, which doesn't sound like Trump to me. I think he will stand by him. And by the way,

00:32:59.520 we'll hear more. This is not going to be it. They're not done with Pete, especially these guys

00:33:02.940 who are now obviously going to be pretty bitter that they got fired. I'm sure we'll see more. So Trump's

00:33:08.440 going to have to be steely spined on Pete as he has been from the beginning. All right,

00:33:11.880 let's talk about what the Democrats have done. I mean, if you, if Trump had like drawn it up in a

00:33:18.080 like dark cigar smoke filled room, he couldn't have done much better than to get all these Democrats 0.85

00:33:23.060 running down to embrace this MS 13 gang member, wife beater, Abrego Garcia, but they're doing it.

00:33:28.800 The best video I saw online was, um, someone did it used AI to show Chris Van Hollen, Senator Van

00:33:34.040 Holland of Maryland dancing with the MS 13 guy, Abrego Garcia in like a waltz together.

00:33:40.860 Sometimes AI is used for good, but they're running down there to embrace him, Steve. And while we don't

00:33:47.940 know what's going to happen on the legal battle for Trump, he's had a setback with the Supreme Court

00:33:51.320 this past weekend, PR wise, politically, he's winning this, isn't he?

00:33:59.720 He's winning it, but I'm going to say it's a quite brilliant strategy. I think they're doing it because

00:34:04.440 this is not about the criminal gangs. Clearly they're embracing these people and the American

00:34:08.240 people are 80, 20 against that. But their overall strategic goal is not, is no mass deportations

00:34:14.580 under Biden's watch. We have at least 10 million illegal alien invaders here. If I was running their 1.00

00:34:20.720 operations, I kind of do the same thing is delay and deny block Trump on the most egregious. If they

00:34:26.660 can slow us down, Megan on MS and MS 13, if they can slow us down with the event as a whaling gang, 0.79

00:34:32.920 if they can do that, when do we actually get to the mass deportations? And here's what happens

00:34:37.480 on the deep state. You, you talk about exactly. First off, we'll wear him down. We'll change the

00:34:42.900 public. You know, the wall street guys come out and say, we need these guys for the economy. They

00:34:45.900 had 2% to GDP that the wages are low because of this there. They are most focused on the 10 million

00:34:52.760 because they want them here as essentially indentured servants, but also as voters. That's what we got

00:34:58.080 to keep the eye on the price. And honestly, they've slowed us down. They use the courts,

00:35:02.220 but let's talk about what happened in the courts. President Trump used the alien, alien enemies act

00:35:08.700 of 1798. One of the predicates of that is actually make the case for an invasion by a foreign power

00:35:13.880 and using these gangs. The deep state came out over the weekend with a national, uh, intelligence

00:35:19.340 estimate kind of leaked to the press to say, Hey, the community, you know, over at DNI, they're doing

00:35:24.800 this internal analysis and it doesn't support that at all. This is what's happening. I think

00:35:29.840 the Democrats are playing their cards smartly. Although for most people, they're sitting there

00:35:34.100 going, how can they embrace these guys? They're embracing these, the worst of the worst, the slowest

00:35:39.120 down and getting the worst of the worst out. Now they got us jammed up in court. They got president

00:35:43.520 Trump's, the energy, the attention, and nobody's talking about the mass deportations. You wait to the,

00:35:48.440 the bill comes up, uh, for the, the reconciliation where we're asking for $170 billion to rebuild the

00:35:56.280 infrastructure, the ice and the logistics to get people out of here. That's going to be another

00:36:00.260 firestorm. So I think we got to double and triple down. Uh, you're a lawyer. I'm not, I think there's

00:36:05.900 president Lincoln, uh, you know, uh, held up a habeas corpus in the civil war. General Washington

00:36:13.660 was all for it. And a couple of times, you know, after he became president about the situation we

00:36:18.340 have with the French revolution and some of the French people over here, I think you've got to

00:36:22.280 get much more on everything we're doing on taking down the deep state and going after this aspect of

00:36:27.660 it. I think we have to double and triple down. Now there can't be any retreat and no pushback.

00:36:32.540 And quite frankly, the courts have got us jammed up. And I think we've got to look at other

00:36:36.820 alternative methods. And I think there's got to be a challenge. There is a constitutional crisis

00:36:41.580 right now. My point is go maximalists on this and let's bring it to a head and let's bring it now.

00:36:46.600 So we can get to the mass deportations. Otherwise the Democrats are going to win. 0.94

00:36:51.560 Yes, I totally agree with that. We talked about the numbers just the other day. Uh, you know,

00:36:55.960 they were 10 and a half million before Joe Biden took over in this country. And now you've got the

00:37:01.140 center for migrant studies saying, well, now they estimate it's about 11.7, a way more than a million

00:37:05.300 came in under Joe Biden. In fact, CPB estimates it's more like 8.2 million. So now you're talking,

00:37:11.580 you know, to round up 20 million illegals here, 500,000 of which a little less are said to be

00:37:17.260 also, uh, extra criminals. You know, you're, you're a criminal if you came in here illegally, 0.51

00:37:21.700 but then committed other crimes. And that's what he's starting with. So they've been doing a good

00:37:26.500 job of stopping it legally, but how can Trump, I mean, Trump could in the Abrego Garcia case,

00:37:30.980 literally under the best, totally, um, what's the opposite of the straw man, stone manning,

00:37:38.500 uh, strong manning the other side's argument. I'm a strong man. The other side's argument,

00:37:42.540 the absolute best they can argue about Abrego Garcia is that he's entitled to be flown back

00:37:47.420 to the United States, brought in front of an immigration judge who can then say that gang you

00:37:52.180 were fearing in El Salvador is no longer. Therefore the, uh, suspension of removal to El Salvador is

00:37:59.320 lifted. And now you have to go back home. And then we fly him home. That is literally the best

00:38:03.980 case scenario for Abrego Garcia right now. And this is all this time and U S senators and energy

00:38:11.520 expended on this one man's case. Forget the fact that he's a gang member, allegedly forget the fact

00:38:16.200 that he's a white wife beater. It's all interesting, but it's irrelevant legally. All you have to prove is 0.99

00:38:20.500 that he was here illegally and deported, which he was, he was all that happened. He said, the court

00:38:25.380 said, but not to El Salvador. Cause he's convinced me he's going to get killed if he gets sent back

00:38:29.980 there. So all we'd have to do is fly back here, have a little hearing where they said, you know

00:38:33.740 what? That threat is no longer existent. You're going back home to El Salvador done. But the reason 0.57

00:38:38.460 they won't do it is what you just said, because you do that for the one they've won. The ACLU has won.

00:38:45.300 If we do that, if we're, and I don't like the fact he's been transferred from Seacott. I don't

00:38:51.800 like the direction of this so far. This is the worst of the worst. And look how the media has

00:38:56.380 embraced this and made this guy a hero. The reason is it's about due process. If in their concept of

00:39:02.460 these invaders, if we bring him back for that hearing, it's over, it's over, it's over for the 1.00

00:39:08.620 sovereignty of the country. It's over for the country. You're never going to get to the rest of

00:39:12.260 the criminal gangs. President Trump, I think, came on True Social today. Megan, look, you know

00:39:16.240 this a thousand times better than I do. I think he said the calculation that the ICE guys have done

00:39:20.620 is 200 years. You'd have 200 years to even get to the criminals, not even to the 10 million.

00:39:26.920 Just the due process hearings, you would have to have it over and over again. So I think we have to

00:39:31.760 take a hard line on this. I think Stephen Miller is 100% correct. I think we have to take a hard line

00:39:35.840 and I would like further action. I just think now's the time to do it. I do believe, and I think,

00:39:41.800 look, the Supreme Court to come out at one o'clock in the morning in the dark of night over Easter

00:39:48.720 weekend and put out a ruling and then have Justice Alito put out his opinion, which was blistering

00:39:55.020 to his colleagues. We have now, this thing's up at the Supreme Court and there's a civil war in the

00:40:00.540 Supreme Court. On the conservative side, not even talking about the progressive judges that we've

00:40:06.440 allowed, and these guys are now feeling empowered. You're going to have lawsuits on tariffs. You're

00:40:10.340 going to have lawsuits on every action President Trump's going to do. To delay is to deny. And

00:40:15.340 they're playing it masterfully. The Justice Department is overwhelmed because you only have

00:40:20.040 so many lawyers. Yes. This is, we have to lance the boil on this. Otherwise, the legal insurrection

00:40:26.700 of these neo-Marxist judges is going to win just by overwhelming us. And that's why I think it's more

00:40:32.480 and more direct and tough action. I just don't think anybody's account, other than the Trump

00:40:38.080 administration, but none of these courts, and we're not effectively making the point, I guess,

00:40:41.880 enough to the judges or the appellate court judges or the Supreme Court, that every single one of these

00:40:47.040 came into this country without affording anybody any due process. No hearing was held to allow them. 1.00

00:40:52.240 No application was filed to allow them. They just broke our laws. Why can't we just afford them

00:40:57.880 commensurate due process with that they afforded us in coming into the country? Shouldn't it be a

00:41:02.800 quid pro quo? It should be, it should be a match. If you fill out forms and we erroneously said you

00:41:07.420 can stay here and now we're trying to deport you, you get your full hearing. But if you broke our laws

00:41:10.880 to come here, why do you deserve anything before we get you out of here? Megan, you're arguing

00:41:15.700 law, constitutional law. You're arguing logic and the rule of law. This is, that's what I'm saying.

00:41:21.580 This is not about that. You can make all those arguments and they don't care.

00:41:24.660 Boesburg, look, on the unitary theory of the executive, where President Trump's the chief executive,

00:41:29.620 It's President Boesburg to you, Steve. Please show some respect.

00:41:32.340 No, but this is my point. He stepped in the middle of this, of President Trump's primary

00:41:36.720 responsibility being commander in chief of the armed forces and being commander in chief and

00:41:41.360 taking an oath to God about the national security of the United States. He stepped in the middle of

00:41:45.600 it and now is bringing criminal, is setting up a record of criminal contempt charges of which,

00:41:50.780 as you remember, I went to prison. They're trying to do the exact same thing around people around

00:41:55.060 President Trump. This is so obvious. This gets back to the Pentagon. Folks, you have to understand

00:42:00.640 this deep state. This just didn't occur overnight. This has been 40 or 50 years. All those generals and

00:42:06.580 field officers and civilians have been around forever as part of the deep state of the Pentagon.

00:42:11.060 They're just not going to have Pete Hexas come in with President Trump's ideas and a handful of

00:42:15.820 people and say, oh, this is terrific. Why didn't we think of this? The same way the judiciary. Look

00:42:20.760 at the radical nature of these judges. You're the lawyer. You're a constitutional lawyer. You know

00:42:25.340 how outrageous some of this has been. It's post-constitutional. That's what the American people

00:42:31.140 and particularly MAGA has to wake up, I think, even more to and say, hey, look, we're not playing by the

00:42:36.500 old rules here anymore because they're going to bury President Trump in that way. And that's why I think we

00:42:40.700 have to be even more aggressive and more outside the box. And I think this legal insurrection and

00:42:45.880 you see this at the Supreme Court of the United States to file something in the middle of the

00:42:50.320 night at one o'clock in the morning and then have Alito so furious that he puts out his own opinion,

00:42:56.060 which throws a couple of sharp elbows at people, his colleagues and the colleagues he was throwing

00:43:00.440 a sharp elbow at was that's the chief justice of the Supreme Court, Roberts. Right. So we're in it.

00:43:07.300 We're in it now voted to stop it either. Not one of the Trump justices voted. It's not that

00:43:12.820 they're obligated to vote on his side. It's just if you are a conservative justice and you're you're

00:43:17.820 opposing both Alito and Thomas, you've done something wrong. OK, I've got to get your reaction to

00:43:23.520 Letitia James finding herself on the wrong side of the law. Allegedly, the audience probably remembers

00:43:32.720 we reported this late last week, but now she's been referred to the DOJ by this housing investigator

00:43:39.120 for having allegedly filled out fraudulent forms and getting two different mortgages,

00:43:44.680 one out of Virginia, which she claimed reportedly as her primary residence, even though her primary

00:43:50.020 residence is in New York where she's attorney general and one out of New York where she claimed

00:43:55.620 allegedly for mortgage break purposes, that it was a dwelling that didn't have more than four

00:44:00.620 apartments when, in fact, it has five and she would have had to pay more in a mortgage if she had 0.64

00:44:06.000 been honest. And then he also alleged that back in 1990, 1983, she applied for a mortgage with her

00:44:13.580 father, claiming the two of them were husband and wife, allegedly as part of a scheme just to show

00:44:18.740 she has a long history of playing fast and loose with the facts in applying for mortgages, meaning she

00:44:23.580 thinks she's entitled to do something where the rest of us are not. So she finally spoke out to this

00:44:28.040 on Thursday, and here is what she said on New York Spectrum One.

00:44:34.120 Let me just say to all New Yorkers and to all Americans, the allegations are baseless. The allegations

00:44:40.880 are nothing more than a revenge tour. You know, as any good attorney, I will not litigate this case

00:44:48.040 in a camera. It's important that we will respond to these allegations at the appropriate time,

00:44:56.880 um, and in the, an appropriate way. Now she doesn't want to litigate cases on camera, Steve.

00:45:06.560 Uh, if those facts are the case, I hope the DOJ in the Southern district of New York,

00:45:11.480 uh, are moving rapidly to an, a panel, do a quick investigation panel and grand jury.

00:45:16.760 And let's get on with it. There's another thing about, let's just move off. And it looks

00:45:19.760 pretty straightforward, right? On the facts have been presented. She's presented no,

00:45:24.880 no counter facts about this. It looks pretty egregious. And I think it was done at the same

00:45:29.920 time that she was dropping these charges, these phony charges on president Trump.

00:45:34.080 So what's good for the goose is, is better for the gander. I would say, let's get on it and get on

00:45:39.080 it quickly. This is what I'm saying about, we got to have a sense of urgency. I would hope we would be

00:45:43.980 seeing if the facts are the case and you have to have an investigation, you would be seeing an

00:45:48.200 indictment pretty quickly. And, uh, and let's perp walk her into, uh, into federal court and, 0.99

00:45:53.760 uh, and see, she says, she's not going to do it. She's not going to do it on TV. That's fine.

00:45:57.520 We'll do it in a court of law, but get on with it. Right on. Um, the daily caller sent two reporters

00:46:02.720 down to Virginia or a down to Virginia where she claimed as her primary residence. Again,

00:46:07.700 clearly, obviously not. She's the AG of New York. She's required to live here just to see,

00:46:11.520 you know, like, is she here? Does she own this building? Is she, is this somehow her

00:46:15.120 primary residence? Here's how that went. Stop 35.

00:46:19.600 Hi there. I'm a reporter with the daily caller.

00:46:22.840 I'm sorry. My kids are out here. I understand. We, we, we mean, we mean the trouble. We're just

00:46:29.540 curious who, who the occupants of the home are because there's, that's none of your business.

00:46:35.060 Well, there are connections. There are connections to New York attorney general,

00:46:40.120 Letitia James. Are you related to Letitia James? Do you know her? You're trespassing. Go with the

00:46:46.160 house. Do you know Letitia James? Okay. No comment. Thank you, ma'am. Thank you, ma'am. You have a good

00:46:52.660 one. Be well. Be well. Hello there, ma'am. No comment. You're trespassing. No comment? Yeah,

00:47:02.060 you're trespassing. Okay. Who lives here? You're trespassing. Who lives here, ma'am? No comment. No

00:47:07.840 comment. Okay. It didn't sound like Letitia James to me, Steve. I know her voice pretty well by now.

00:47:16.660 She's also never shy about a camera. That'd be the first time she didn't want to jump in front of a

00:47:20.400 microphone, right? Megan? Okay. Absolutely. Speaking of people who love to be in front of

00:47:25.940 the microphone, your old pal, AOC, you've had very complimentary things to say about her in the past

00:47:30.700 and her ability to resonate with the crowd and the Democrats is making a run for it right now. 1.00

00:47:36.620 Fight the oligarchy tour. They're getting a lot of tens of thousands of people to watch AOC and Bernie.

00:47:44.000 And she's polling at the top of the Dem field right now. All the numbers are relatively low,

00:47:48.620 but she's at the top of it. I think she's right behind Kamala Harris in terms of their next 0.99

00:47:54.000 favorite. So what do you make of what she's doing right now and whether it sets her up for a possible

00:47:59.600 presidential run next time around? Let's talk about the substance in a second,

00:48:03.720 but the optics are clearly she, you know, a party that's dispirited and doesn't have,

00:48:08.420 you know, any way forward and really has no policies. She's out there as a dynamic personality. 0.97

00:48:13.460 She's putting some energy into it. First, the number one is you've got to get people

00:48:18.620 to kind of believe in something. Hey, we're going to fight for something. So in that regard,

00:48:22.380 I think she is energy because the, the, the, the geriatrics and the democratic party are not just

00:48:28.560 wrong on policy. They're, they're, they're beaten, right? You can tell that. And they don't have

00:48:32.440 response. Now you look at the substance of the fight, the oligarchy. I've never seen anything

00:48:36.900 more crassly, a bigger lie and phony. I have watched virtually every second of the speeches

00:48:44.400 of her and Bernie, because I am impressed by the crowds they are drawing. And this is just not all

00:48:48.500 Coachella. They've driven huge crowds in the middle of a beautiful Saturday in Los Angeles. They're

00:48:53.340 getting people there. Those people are thirsting for kind of populism. This is what the democratic

00:48:58.820 party abandoned. The bayoners, the democratic party in the credential class walked away from the

00:49:03.340 working class. Those people do want to fight the oligarchs. Unfortunately, everything Bernie and,

00:49:08.180 and, uh, and AOC saying these speeches has nothing really about tacking the oligarchs.

00:49:12.540 It's all this kind of green new deal and Gaza. It's, it's everything, but the heart of the matter, 0.94

00:49:18.300 the heart of the matter is president Trump's tariff policy. And what he's trying to do is bring

00:49:22.900 manufacturing jobs back here for the working class. If you look at the tax bill, everything's

00:49:28.020 everybody's talking about is president Trump is open to, and I think you're going to be shocked

00:49:32.100 to see that president Trump is not going to allow a snapback at the upper bracket. In fact,

00:49:37.720 I think he'll create a million dollar bracket and that bracket will be at 40%. He will actually tax

00:49:42.860 the wealthy in this entire tax plan. Something that Schumer and, and, and, and Pelosi and Biden

00:49:49.400 didn't do in the first hundred days when they had everything in 2021, they talked about it. It didn't

00:49:54.000 even come out of committee. President Trump will do it. The third thing is in federal court in

00:49:58.860 Washington DC working off Lena Kahn's great work when she was head of the FTC and abandoned by

00:50:05.120 Kamala Harris and abandoned by Joe Biden. You have Zuckerberg who has been a supplicant to

00:50:10.020 president Trump. You've had Zuckerberg there in court about breaking up the Facebook empire.

00:50:15.120 And we have Google in Northern Virginia and DC about breaking up their empire. Trump justice department,

00:50:21.340 Trump FTC breaking up the oligarchs, the Republican party under Trump, the MAGA movement is taking down

00:50:27.200 the oligarchs. AOC and Bernie are running around cosplaying populist.

00:50:32.960 Steve Bannon, the one and only always with a great take on things. Great to see you. Thanks for being

00:50:37.260 here. Megan, thank you so much. Appreciate you. Fascinating, right? My God, there's so much in

00:50:42.780 the news and you really have to buckle in to really digest it all. Next up, Nancy Grace is here and she is

00:50:51.420 going to tell us about possibly the most bizarre criminal case I have ever heard of. I do not

00:51:00.280 understand what happened here or how the system failed this family, but man, oh man, does she have

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00:52:14.140 I cannot wait to bring you the story. Okay. This is the most bizarre, disturbing case I have heard

00:52:23.840 in recent memory. It remains sort of unsolved. I mean, you'll see why I say sort of. More than 14

00:52:32.020 years after it happened. Ellen Greenberg was a 27-year-old bride-to-be. First grade teacher,

00:52:38.780 whole life in front of her, living in Philadelphia, loving family, whole bed, fiance whom she reportedly

00:52:45.600 loved. One night, that fiance, Sam Goldberg, returned home. They'd been in the apartment

00:52:51.720 together. She had gotten home early from school because it had been a very snowy day, so they

00:52:56.180 apparently let school out. She came home early. He was home too. They lived in a six-floor apartment

00:53:01.780 in this Philadelphia, nice apartment building. And he went downstairs to work out in the gym that was

00:53:09.560 in their apartment building. He came back upstairs and couldn't get the door open. Like one of those

00:53:16.360 latches, those latch locks was closed. He had been in the apartment with her some 45 minutes earlier,

00:53:23.300 and now it was latched, the latch lock from inside. So he starts banging on the door and he says he went

00:53:30.860 down to the doorman and enlisted help and so on. There's a dispute about whether that happened, but

00:53:34.800 net, net, he wound up breaking the door in, breaking the lock basically to get in and says that is where

00:53:42.340 he found his fiancee who appeared to him to be dead. Now he called 911. Nancy Grace is here and she's

00:53:52.040 going to bring, she's written an amazing new book on this, but listen to this. Okay. Because

00:53:56.280 he called 911 and it's a long call, but I'm going to play you the entire thing. We're going to bring

00:54:04.020 Nancy in and she's going to explain to us why this case has wound up being so bizarre and controversial,

00:54:11.360 but just listen to his 911 call.

00:54:13.280 I just, I just walked to my apartment. She's on the floor with blood everywhere. 1.00

00:54:22.780 What is the address?

00:54:24.180 4601 Flat Rock Road. Please come help now.

00:54:27.520 4601 Flat Rock Road.

00:54:29.520 5601 Flat Rock Road. Is this a house or apartment?

00:54:31.520 Oh, no. Oh, no. It's an apartment. Please, Harry, please.

00:54:36.520 Where is she bleeding from? 1.00

00:54:37.520 I don't know. I can't tell. She's...

00:54:39.520 Sir, you have to calm yourself down in order to get you some help.

00:54:43.520 I'm sorry. I'm sorry. She, I don't know. I'm looking at her right now. She, I don't,

00:54:49.520 I can't see anything. She doesn't, there's nothing broken. She's bleeding. Ally?

00:54:53.520 You don't know where she's bleeding from? Can't tell where the blood's coming from? 1.00

00:54:57.520 It's, I think her head. I think she hit her head, I think.

00:54:59.520 But it's not, but it's everywhere.

00:55:00.520 Okay.

00:55:01.520 It's everywhere.

00:55:02.520 You think she might have fallen? Do you know what happened to her?

00:55:04.520 She, she, she may have slipped. There's blood on the, on the table. Her face is a little purple.

00:55:09.520 Okay. Hold on for rescue for her. Stay on the phone.

00:55:12.520 What's wrong?

00:55:13.520 My, my, I just, my, I went downstairs to go work out. I came back up. The door was latched.

00:55:19.520 My, my fiance's inside. It wasn't, she wasn't answering. So after about a half hour,

00:55:24.520 I decided to break it down. I see her now just on the floor with blood. Like she's not,

00:55:28.520 she's not responding.

00:55:29.520 Okay. Is she breathing?

00:55:31.520 Look at her chest. I need you to calm down and I need you to look at her chest. 0.87

00:55:36.520 I don't think she, I really don't think she is.

00:55:38.520 Listen to me. Someone's on the way. Look at her chest. Is she flat on her back? 0.79

00:55:42.520 She's on her back.

00:55:44.520 Look at her chest and tell me if it's going up and down, up and down. 0.99

00:55:47.520 I don't see her moving.

00:55:49.520 Okay. Do you know how to do CPR?

00:55:51.520 I don't.

00:55:52.520 Okay. I can tell you what to do. Okay. Until they get there.

00:55:54.520 I want you to keep her.

00:55:55.520 Oh God.

00:55:56.520 Hello?

00:55:57.520 Yeah. Hi. Okay.

00:55:58.520 Are you willing to do CPR with me over the phone until they get there?

00:56:01.520 I have to, right?

00:56:02.520 Okay. So get her flat on her back, bare her chest. Okay. You want to rip her shirt off. 1.00

00:56:06.520 Okay. You need to feel down by her side.

00:56:09.520 Oh my God. Allie, please. 0.71

00:56:12.520 Listen, listen. You can't freak out, sir.

00:56:14.520 Okay. I'm trying not to. I'm trying not to. Her shirt won't come off. It's a zipper.

00:56:19.520 Rip it off.

00:56:20.520 Oh my God. She stabbed herself. 0.74

00:56:21.520 Where?

00:56:22.520 She fell on a knife. Oh no. Her knife sticking out. 0.89

00:56:25.520 Her what? 0.97

00:56:26.520 There's a knife sticking out of her heart. 1.00

00:56:28.520 Oh, she stabbed herself? 0.89

00:56:30.520 I guess so. I don't know where she fell on it. I don't know.

00:56:33.520 Okay. Well, don't touch it.

00:56:35.520 Okay. So I'm just going to let her down here now? I mean, what do I do?

00:56:38.520 No. I mean, you can't. If the knife is at her chest, it's going to be kind of hard for you to do CPR at this time.

00:56:43.520 Oh no. Oh my goodness. Okay.

00:56:46.520 Police with shot, Brita.

00:56:47.520 277.

00:56:48.520 Is someone coming here?

00:56:49.520 Yes, they are. You said 4601 Flat Rock, right?

00:56:52.520 Yes.

00:56:54.520 Okay. Someone's on the way. And the knife is still inside?

00:56:57.520 Is there what?

00:56:58.520 The knife is still inside of her? 0.94

00:57:00.520 Yes. I didn't take it out.

00:57:01.520 Is it her chest or what area is it? 1.00

00:57:03.520 It's in her chest. It looks like it's right. It looks like it's right in her heart.

00:57:08.520 Okay. Someone's on the way out there, okay? Just get to know.

00:57:11.520 Oh my God. Oh my God.

00:57:13.520 How old is she? 0.98

00:57:14.520 She's 27.

00:57:15.520 27. And there's no sign of life at all?

00:57:18.520 No. No. Please don't be. What?

00:57:22.520 You've been turned to her arm and tell me she responds to pain.

00:57:25.520 She's... Ellie! 1.00

00:57:28.520 She's not... Her arms... Her hands are still warm. I don't know what that means. But there's blood everywhere. I mean...

00:57:34.520 I know, but you can't. And the knife is still inside of her. How far? Can you see how far it went in?

00:57:38.520 It looks pretty deep.

00:57:40.520 Okay.

00:57:41.520 It looks... And it's a long knife.

00:57:43.520 Don't touch anything. Yeah, don't touch anything, okay?

00:57:45.520 I'm not touching anything. I can't believe this, though.

00:57:48.520 No, wait. It was just you there with her?

00:57:50.520 We... Yeah, we're the only ones here.

00:57:53.520 And she ran in the door. You said, latched it shut? 0.93

00:57:55.520 No, no. I went downstairs to work out. And when I came back up, the door was latched.

00:58:01.520 Oh.

00:58:02.520 Like, it was... You know, it wasn't like... You know, it was like locked from the inside.

00:58:06.520 And I'm yelling. And so I was...

00:58:09.520 Was your house broken into?

00:58:11.520 No, no, no, no, no.

00:58:12.520 So there's no sign of a break-in?

00:58:14.520 No, no sign of a break-in at all. I mean, there will be when you get here.

00:58:17.520 Because I had to break the latch, but... To get in.

00:58:21.520 Okay. 4601.

00:58:24.520 Unbelievable. That was her fiance, Sam Goldberg.

00:58:27.520 She would eventually go to the coroner's office where he would find she had been stabbed more than 20 times.

00:58:33.520 And the medical examiner ruled her death a suicide. A suicide.

00:58:42.520 Our next guest, Nancy Grace, has dedicated her life to finding answers in criminal cases. 0.98

00:58:48.520 And this is very much her latest project.

00:58:51.520 She's written a whole book about it.

00:58:52.520 It's called What Happened to Ellen? An American Miscarriage of Justice. 0.67

00:58:57.520 You can get it via audio.

00:58:59.520 I downloaded the audio this morning. She had sent me the book.

00:59:01.520 You can get the hard copy, too.

00:59:03.520 Nancy, welcome back to the show.

00:59:05.520 Take it from there.

00:59:06.520 Unbelievable.

00:59:07.520 Like, people do commit suicide, but 20 times they stabbed themselves?

00:59:13.520 Can you explain how?

00:59:15.520 First of all, thank you for inviting me.

00:59:17.520 I really appreciate it.

00:59:19.520 And on behalf of her mother and father, Josh and Sandy,

00:59:23.520 the only way to get justice in this case is to bring the feds in on the case.

00:59:28.520 And I'll explain why.

00:59:30.520 But just let it sink in.

00:59:32.520 Despite 20 knife wounds, 20 knife wounds, 11 bruises.

00:59:39.520 And catch this.

00:59:42.520 The textbook signs of strangulation.

00:59:45.520 I'm not saying, Megan, that she died.

00:59:48.520 The COD is not cause of death is not strangulation, but she was strangled.

00:59:52.520 There are bruise marks that are unrelated to the stab wounds on her neck and strap muscles like this.

01:00:00.520 See what I mean?

01:00:01.520 Here and here.

01:00:03.520 I can see them with the naked eye and the autopsy photos.

01:00:07.520 But listen to this.

01:00:10.520 When the then medical examiner, Dr. Marlon Osborne, first got Ellen's body, he ruled it a homicide.

01:00:19.520 Of course, she stabbed 20 times, including 10 stab wounds to the back, even slicing her dura, the protective sheath around the spine.

01:00:29.520 Yet she kept stabbing herself 20 times.

01:00:32.520 So naturally, he said, this is a homicide.

01:00:35.520 Wait for it.

01:00:36.520 Then, because police had already said, oh, yeah.

01:00:40.520 A lot from the inside.

01:00:41.520 This is definitely a suicide.

01:00:43.520 They go meet with the medical examiner, and this stinks to high heaven, the medical examiner, Marlon Osborne, a rep from the district attorney's office, a female prosecutor who has now gotten immunity about this, and members of the police department, Philly PD.

01:01:03.520 They all meet behind closed doors.

01:01:06.520 When the M.E. comes out, he goes, correction, it's a suicide.

01:01:11.520 Okay, what happened in 72 hours?

01:01:13.520 It was a homicide.

01:01:14.520 They have the meeting.

01:01:16.520 They never divulge what happened.

01:01:18.520 He comes out and goes, change my mind.

01:01:21.520 Oopsie.

01:01:22.520 And rules it a suicide.

01:01:24.520 Now, the parents of Ellen Greenberg have spent their life savings.

01:01:31.520 This is just before the wedding.

01:01:33.520 They've already booked the venue, gorgeous, the band, the food, the works.

01:01:38.520 It's all done.

01:01:41.520 She met Mr. Right.

01:01:43.520 Okay.

01:01:44.520 She was happy.

01:01:45.520 Why suicide?

01:01:46.520 They spent all their life savings.

01:01:49.520 They just sold their house, Megan, to try to get her name cleared that she did not commit suicide.

01:01:55.520 Wow.

01:01:56.520 So they sue the city, the cops.

01:01:59.520 They throw the book.

01:02:00.520 They sue them civilly.

01:02:01.520 They're picking the jury, and the M.E. is going to have to take the stand and divulge what happened

01:02:07.520 in that closed door meeting, why he changed his ruling.

01:02:10.520 Last minute, 11th hour, they settle the case.

01:02:13.520 Rather than tell the truth, he settles the case.

01:02:17.520 Where does that leave the case?

01:02:19.520 Pending.

01:02:20.520 And I'm telling you, Josh Shapiro, the now governor, and you know how I hate to talk about

01:02:25.520 politics because I don't want the crimes I report and investigate to be swayed by politics.

01:02:32.520 Josh Shapiro was the state AG at the time.

01:02:36.520 He was begged.

01:02:37.520 Look at this.

01:02:38.520 He's like, I don't see any evidence.

01:02:40.520 I agree with the police.

01:02:41.520 How could he say that?

01:02:43.520 He was this close to the Oval Office until the name Ellen Greenberg popped up in the

01:02:48.520 media, and suddenly he was off the roster of potential VP candidates.

01:02:53.520 Mm-hmm.

01:02:54.520 That's right.

01:02:55.520 That's how controversial this case is.

01:02:56.520 And now he's the governor.

01:02:58.520 So one of the, there's so many really interesting facts connected with this.

01:03:03.520 One of the damning facts against Sam Goldberg, who is, you know, obviously suspected by some

01:03:11.520 as having killed her.

01:03:13.520 He denies it forcefully and is disgusted that that's been alleged and has a strong statement

01:03:18.520 about mental health and how people don't understand it, but we're going to consider him because

01:03:23.520 obviously that's, that's what many people, including Ellen's family think happened that

01:03:27.520 he killed her.

01:03:28.520 But one of the things that is not a good fact for him is he did while I think while outside

01:03:35.520 the apartment trying to get in, or that's at least during the period he says he was out

01:03:40.520 there trying to get in, he made two phone calls or he made a phone call to a cousin who happens

01:03:45.520 to be a lawyer and that cousin's father who's a lawyer called him back.

01:03:51.520 So Nancy, that jumped out at me as like, why if your fiance is outside of apartment in

01:03:57.520 which, you know, you're non-responsive, why would he be calling a lawyer?

01:04:01.520 Can you explain what happened there?

01:04:04.520 Well, that jumped out at me as well.

01:04:08.520 However, I will say that at this juncture, when there hasn't even been a real investigation,

01:04:17.520 no luminol was used.

01:04:19.520 I would like to point out that no fingerprints were taken.

01:04:25.520 Her blood was smeared along the kitchen cabinet.

01:04:29.520 She was found sitting up in the kitchen floor, legs in the kitchen floor, back against the cabinets.

01:04:37.520 And there was blood smeared behind her as if she had been slammed against the cabinets and then landed where she was sitting. 0.64

01:04:46.520 This is devastating to the investigation.

01:04:50.520 There's something called that we call the wrong way blood.

01:04:56.520 When fire and PD got there, blood was dried, Megan.

01:05:02.520 She's sitting up, going horizontally across her face.

01:05:07.520 Impossible.

01:05:08.520 If you believe in Sir Isaac Newton findings in gravity, the blood would have gone like that.

01:05:13.520 Right?

01:05:14.520 Straight down.

01:05:15.520 It was dried this way, which proves at some point she had been lying that way for the blood to dry and then propped up, which is staging of the scene.

01:05:26.520 What I'm saying right now, all I want is an independent investigation.

01:05:31.520 I'm not ready to point a finger at anybody.

01:05:34.520 Nobody.

01:05:35.520 Yeah, sure.

01:05:36.520 I can speculate.

01:05:37.520 But I believe that that would hurt the investigation because what if down the line is somebody else and the state will be haunted by speculation.

01:05:48.520 So I think what we need right now is this case to be reopened for an independent investigation.

01:05:55.520 You just touched the tip of the iceberg.

01:05:58.520 There's the wrong way blood.

01:06:00.520 There are signs of strangulation.

01:06:02.520 You and I discussed the criminal statistics, the method and assessment of homicide and suicide.

01:06:08.520 It is highly unlikely, A, for a female to kill herself and destroy anything around the face and the head. 0.97

01:06:18.520 She might poison herself. 0.85

01:06:20.520 She might OD. 0.99

01:06:21.520 She might jump out a window. 1.00

01:06:22.520 She might use carbon monoxide, you know, in a car or an oven gas, but it's highly unlikely she would stab herself.

01:06:29.520 Now, in the rare event, a female does stab herself. 0.95

01:06:32.520 Through her clothing.

01:06:33.520 Through her clothing.

01:06:34.520 Right.

01:06:35.520 It wouldn't be 20 times.

01:06:36.520 When the fire department got there, Megan, they said she would have to be double or triple jointed to stab herself in the back that many times. 0.99

01:06:46.520 In the back.

01:06:47.520 And here is the coup de gras.

01:06:50.520 Now, here's the topper.

01:06:52.520 I hope you're sitting down.

01:06:53.520 You may need to lay down, Megan, to hear this.

01:06:55.520 Oh, boy.

01:06:56.520 Some of the wounds, according to experts, not me, experts, medical examiners, death investigators.

01:07:03.520 At least one, if not more wounds were administered post-mortem after death, after her heart stopped beating.

01:07:13.520 Why?

01:07:14.520 They did not bleed. 0.99

01:07:16.520 If you're dead and you're lying there and I stab you, it's not going to bleed because your heart's not pumping blood anymore. 0.66

01:07:24.520 At least one, if not two wounds were post-mortem, Megan. 0.99

01:07:28.520 It's impossible for this to be suicide.

01:07:31.520 Now, I do not imping perjury or nefarious intent on anyone yet.

01:07:40.520 I believe the cops got there.

01:07:43.520 They believed they just ate the story they were told that the door was broken in.

01:07:50.520 And maybe it was.

01:07:52.520 I don't know the answer to that yet.

01:07:54.520 I do know by breaking in a door, you destroy evidence if the door was locked or unlocked because the door is now broken down.

01:08:01.520 But they said when they got there that something was wrong when they first got there.

01:08:09.520 But they didn't use luminol.

01:08:11.520 They didn't make any measurements.

01:08:13.520 I have found out that on the bottom of her shoes, Megan, was covered in blood.

01:08:19.520 If she killed herself, why would that be?

01:08:22.520 I found that clumps of her hair covered in blood were between her legs where she was sitting, according to a rep for the family. 0.99

01:08:32.520 None of this equals suicide.

01:08:35.520 I think the cops did a shabby job.

01:08:37.520 The very next day, the apartment manager was asked if the fiance's family could come get items for the funeral.

01:08:45.520 She called the police and asked them, can they?

01:08:48.520 And they went, sure.

01:08:49.520 And she said, well, can I clean the apartment so it can be rented out again?

01:08:53.520 And they went, sure.

01:08:54.520 And they even gave her a cleaning, a crime cleaning specialist.

01:08:59.520 She sensed something was wrong.

01:09:02.520 And she videoed the apartment before and after the cleaning, which is kind of a way to preserve evidence.

01:09:09.520 And guess what?

01:09:10.520 The police lost the video.

01:09:11.520 I mean, you know, what else could they possibly do wrong?

01:09:16.520 And I think in a bid to cover up their mistakes, they started a lie.

01:09:21.520 Let me let me take a take a stab at a bad choice of words, but defending the suicide theory.

01:09:28.520 The people who believe it or who want us to believe it say she was on a couple of drugs, a sleeping medication and an anti-anxiety med.

01:09:37.520 She was seeing a therapist that she, by the way, the therapist said she did not complain about the fiance at all.

01:09:43.520 They seem to have a loving relationship for what it's worth.

01:09:46.520 And she had these, I guess, commonly prescribed medications to help her sleep and to help with her anxiety and the reported side effects.

01:09:55.520 They always list the side effects and they they tend to include suicidality.

01:09:59.520 You know, ninety nine point nine nine percent of the cases they don't cause that.

01:10:03.520 But the drug manufacturers put it on there as one of the possible risks.

01:10:07.520 And so the theory is that, though, you know, she she seemed happy and she seemed maybe a little anxious, but net net a happy person, something flipped.

01:10:18.520 And many of those wounds were superficial, like a testing, which could happen.

01:10:24.520 Somebody is like seeing what it would feel like and working up the nerve to actually do it.

01:10:28.520 And there was some question about whether I saw the testimony by that one expert saying, yeah, those wounds didn't bleed and therefore they were probably committed postmortem.

01:10:38.520 But then there was something on the other side saying she the same woman saying, but I can't be totally sure on that either, to be honest.

01:10:45.520 So that's the argument that she took her own life.

01:10:48.520 And of course, that she was in a locked apartment by herself.

01:10:52.520 There was only one other way out. There was that front door that was locked with a latch from the inside.

01:10:56.520 And there's only one other way out, which was the the deck leading off their patio.

01:11:00.520 But it was a snowstorm and the snow was totally preserved and unfootmarked at all.

01:11:04.520 So the cops reasonably did not believe anybody had come in or gotten out from there.

01:11:08.520 So it had to be. Didn't it didn't have to be her or her fiance?

01:11:14.520 It doesn't have to be anything.

01:11:18.520 But I can tell you this.

01:11:21.520 It's not suicide.

01:11:22.520 I will address each of the points you raised in order that you raised them.

01:11:27.520 Number one, sleeping meds and anti-anxiety meds.

01:11:33.520 She had just seen her therapist.

01:11:35.520 Why was she seeing a therapist?

01:11:37.520 She was seeing Dr. Ellen Berman because shortly before her murder,

01:11:42.520 she had called her parents, Josh and Sandy, and asked to move home.

01:11:49.520 To move out of the apartment she shared with her fiance.

01:11:53.520 Quit her job and move home. 1.00

01:11:56.520 She was teaching first graders.

01:11:59.520 She had always loved her job and indicated nothing otherwise.

01:12:03.520 Her father advised her, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

01:12:07.520 Don't quit your job in the middle of the year.

01:12:09.520 Finish out the term.

01:12:11.520 And then if you want to, then quit your job.

01:12:15.520 Why she wanted to move out of the apartment with Sam remains a mystery.

01:12:20.520 I don't know the answer to that.

01:12:22.520 But I do know that she asked her parents and one of her best friends, Debbie,

01:12:27.520 could she move in with them shortly before her death?

01:12:32.520 Her mother was like, what's wrong? 0.93

01:12:35.520 Why do you want to quit your job and move home with us?

01:12:38.520 You know what?

01:12:39.520 Before you do that, before you leave your job, I want you to see a therapist.

01:12:43.520 I'll find you a counselor.

01:12:44.520 And she did.

01:12:46.520 Dr. Ellen Berman.

01:12:48.520 Berman states specifically that Ellen had anxiety but was not suicidal.

01:12:56.520 Was not suicidal.

01:12:59.520 Hence the prescription for anti-anxiety pills and sleep meds.

01:13:04.520 She was having trouble sleeping.

01:13:06.520 She, Ellen, spoke to friends concerned about the effects of the anti-anxiety pill.

01:13:15.520 But what effect was she worried about?

01:13:17.520 Gaining weight before her wedding.

01:13:20.520 That was her concern.

01:13:23.520 The autopsy revealed she had a normal amount of the meds in her.

01:13:28.520 There was no OD.

01:13:30.520 I would also like to point out that the day of the murder, there was a blizzard,

01:13:35.520 a nor'easter, blew in.

01:13:37.520 Her first graders had to go home early.

01:13:39.520 Just before her death, it was questioned.

01:13:42.520 Why was she calling all these people on her phone?

01:13:44.520 Was she crazy?

01:13:46.520 The family contacted all those numbers.

01:13:51.520 She called every single student's family to make sure the child got home, each child.

01:13:58.520 Those were the phone calls on her phone.

01:14:00.520 The people contacted.

01:14:02.520 The parents said she was absolutely fine.

01:14:04.520 There was nothing wrong.

01:14:05.520 So explain to me.

01:14:07.520 In the one hour before her murder, she was on the phone making sure her children got home from school.

01:14:15.520 She was perfectly happy and bubbly on the phone.

01:14:18.520 And the 45 minutes it took for Sam to go work out, Sam Goldberg to go work out and come back.

01:14:26.520 That is not enough time.

01:14:28.520 I think a jury would agree for her to form the intent to commit suicide.

01:14:33.520 She was still in the kitchen where she was making a fruit salad for lunch. 0.88

01:14:38.520 And while she's supposed to be committing suicide with her right hand, when she was found, she still had a pristine white dishcloth in her left hand.

01:14:47.520 So, Megan, you believe in any world she could stab herself 20 times, including to the back of the spine, the top of the head, and hold on the other hand with a clean dish towel?

01:15:06.520 Right. 0.95

01:15:07.520 Right.

01:15:08.520 No, that did not happen.

01:15:12.520 The latching of the lock is very interesting because was it the kind of lock that we all have in the hotel rooms, you know, with a little chain or was it something more, you know, strong?

01:15:26.520 Not the chain.

01:15:28.520 It was the kind that you pull over like that.

01:15:33.520 Yep.

01:15:34.520 Okay.

01:15:35.520 And the person on the outside can open it like that much.

01:15:37.520 It was one of those.

01:15:39.520 Now, tests have been done that suggest the door was not broken in.

01:15:45.520 According to others, the door was broken in.

01:15:49.520 But I stand firmly on the forensic evidence.

01:15:53.520 The door broken or not broken is another can of worms.

01:15:58.520 But just on the physical evidence alone, and I'd like to point out that in the last months, the original medical examiner, Marlon Osborne, reversed.

01:16:11.520 And he says, this is not a suicide.

01:16:14.520 I'm now convinced it's not a suicide.

01:16:16.520 So you and I and the rest of the world and all the online haters can hash it apart as much as we want to.

01:16:25.520 But the ME that saw the body and multiple other MEs and medical examiners state it was not suicide.

01:16:31.520 So the original problem was from Marlon Osborne, who after his closed door meeting where the D.A. got immunity, changed it to suicide.

01:16:41.520 He's reversed. 0.65

01:16:42.520 Everyone is in agreement now.

01:16:44.520 It's not suicide.

01:16:45.520 So why is nothing being done?

01:16:47.520 Why aren't we looking for a killer?

01:16:49.520 Can I ask you a question about the fiance?

01:16:52.520 When he was he says he went down to work out, he came back up, the apartment door is latched.

01:16:58.520 And he's, you know, saying, hey, you know, he's sending her an increasingly annoyed series of texts inside.

01:17:06.520 And then he says he went down to the doorman and said, hey, I'm locked out.

01:17:11.520 She's got the latch closed.

01:17:12.520 And he claims the doorman was like kind of like, not my problem.

01:17:15.520 You're going to have to break it in if that's what you want, if you want to enter.

01:17:18.520 And that that's what he then did.

01:17:20.520 Went up there and and pushed up, push it open with his shoulder or his body.

01:17:24.520 Does does anybody verify any of that, Nancy?

01:17:27.520 Does the doorman back that up?

01:17:29.520 Did anybody witness the fact that he was locked out and pacing and trying to figure out what to do for that period of time, maybe like a 30 minute window after workout and before finding her?

01:17:39.520 Well, according to some reports, the doorman is Philip Hanton.

01:17:44.520 And he says the fiance came down and told him he needed to break in the door.

01:17:53.520 And Hanton said, I cannot leave this front desk.

01:17:56.520 I'm in charge of this and I can't go up there.

01:17:59.520 And I'm not going up there.

01:18:01.520 Now, according to some reports, the fiance said he did have a witness that watched him break down the door.

01:18:08.520 And suggested it was Philip Hanton.

01:18:11.520 It wasn't Philip Hanton.

01:18:13.520 And as of now, we have not uncovered any employee or anyone that went with him to watch him break down the door.

01:18:24.520 Hmm.

01:18:25.520 And do we have evidence that he did, in fact, go work out?

01:18:28.520 Is that in dispute?

01:18:31.520 I've seen the video of him going into the workout club.

01:18:36.520 It's downstairs like a workout room.

01:18:38.520 And according to the Greenbergs, rep coming out in about 45 minutes.

01:18:45.520 I've looked very carefully at him walking around because he then goes and gets some mail and he's looking at his phone.

01:18:52.520 It looks to me that there is sweat on the back of his shirt, but I can't tell from the black and white video.

01:19:00.520 But I can look at the timing.

01:19:02.520 He goes into the workout room and then comes out.

01:19:07.520 That much I do know.

01:19:09.520 And then do.

01:19:10.520 So he comes home, finds her.

01:19:11.520 She wasn't supposed to come home early that day, but she did because of the blizzard.

01:19:15.520 He's there.

01:19:16.520 He goes and works out 45 minutes, comes back up and she's dead.

01:19:21.520 And she's cold to the touch.

01:19:24.520 According to him in the 911 call, she's already cold in a warm apartment.

01:19:29.520 Now that takes a little bit of time right there for the body temp to go down. 0.62

01:19:35.520 But he says she was cold to the touch in a heated apartment in the kitchen.

01:19:46.520 That presents an issue for the medical examiner as to the time of death.

01:19:50.520 Why do I care about the time of death?

01:19:52.520 Because that rules suspects in or out.

01:19:55.520 According to the medical examiner now, this is no longer considered a suicide.

01:20:00.520 And what we're waiting on is a local D.A. to relaunch the investigation.

01:20:05.520 That has not happened.

01:20:07.520 I don't know why.

01:20:08.520 And really, gosh, you've covered so many of these.

01:20:12.520 I cannot trust the Philadelphia District Attorney's office because they've already screwed it up once.

01:20:18.520 I can't trust the P.A. authorities.

01:20:21.520 This has got to be handled by the feds.

01:20:24.520 There's just really no other alternative.

01:20:26.520 They never found the fiance's DNA on the knife.

01:20:30.520 This was a shoddy investigation.

01:20:32.520 No question.

01:20:33.520 But what I read in any event is that his DNA was not found in the knife and that he was not found with blood all over him.

01:20:39.520 I actually would have thought he would have had some blood on him just from that purported attempt at CPR that we heard him go through with the 911 operator.

01:20:46.520 But, you know, again, just because as I look at it, I don't understand how it could be anybody else.

01:20:53.520 I suppose there could have been somebody lying in wait in a closet and then they killed her.

01:20:58.520 And then when they ran out of the apartment, they slammed the door so hard that somehow the latch connected.

01:21:04.520 Maybe that's that's a possibility.

01:21:07.520 But if you go with the odds and you look at the fiance, it just doesn't like make sense to me that he.

01:21:16.520 I don't know. He came back up.

01:21:18.520 She had locked him out.

01:21:19.520 He allegedly broke down the door.

01:21:20.520 He says he locked down that he broke down the door.

01:21:23.520 And at that point, if he did something to her, would it would the murder have occurred then, Nancy?

01:21:28.520 Is that the if you're against the fiance in this hypothetical world, would that have been the moment of murder or prior to the workout?

01:21:36.520 I believe at this juncture speculating as to the identity of the killer will damage the investigation.

01:21:45.520 If you think about what the police did or did not do.

01:21:51.520 I'm not defending anyone or pointing the finger at anyone.

01:21:55.520 I got to get this case reopened.

01:21:58.520 But of course, they're going to look at the fiance.

01:22:02.520 But did the parents think it was the fiance?

01:22:05.520 The parents think she was a domestic abuse abuse victim.

01:22:08.520 And they point to those old bruises that were found, 11 bruises on her body that predated the date of her death.

01:22:15.520 Keep going. Sorry.

01:22:16.520 The police did not determine had there been visitors in the apartment.

01:22:21.520 Had there been visitors in the lobby?

01:22:24.520 Was there another access for visitors or intruders to get in?

01:22:28.520 Had there been delivery people?

01:22:31.520 Had she been stalked at school?

01:22:33.520 Did anyone follow her home?

01:22:35.520 Is there video surveillance in the parking lot or in the hallways or in the trash chute areas?

01:22:45.520 Had she had any complaints?

01:22:47.520 Had she had any threats?

01:22:50.520 I think that the investigation was so bad.

01:22:54.520 I remember a time when I was prosecuting.

01:22:58.520 There was this beautiful young pre-K teacher.

01:23:00.520 Her name was Julie Love.

01:23:03.520 And she disappeared.

01:23:06.520 And it was assumed that she was murdered.

01:23:09.520 And many people called for the fiance to be indicted.

01:23:14.520 It was obvious to everyone.

01:23:16.520 He did it. He did it.

01:23:17.520 Listen to this.

01:23:19.520 Years later, years later, like five or six years later,

01:23:23.520 a woman came into the PD, police department, APD, 0.98

01:23:27.520 and had been beaten horribly.

01:23:28.520 I saw it beating.

01:23:30.520 She said it was her boyfriend.

01:23:33.520 Emmanuel Hammons.

01:23:35.520 I still remember his name.

01:23:37.520 And she said, hey, hey, hey, I got something else for you.

01:23:40.520 He killed Julie Love.

01:23:42.520 There was no connection between them at all.

01:23:45.520 What really happened?

01:23:47.520 Emmanuel Hammons and some of his friends were driving along, 0.98

01:23:51.520 saw her, chased her, raped her, beat her, killed her, 0.99

01:23:57.520 threw her body away. 1.00

01:23:59.520 And you know what they found of her

01:24:00.520 when they went to where the girlfriend I directed them?

01:24:03.520 They found her glass eye.

01:24:05.520 Nobody even knew she had a glass eye. 0.99

01:24:07.520 A glass eye and a bone.

01:24:10.520 The remains of Julie Love.

01:24:12.520 And the DA, in his wisdom, had been goaded to try and indict the boyfriend.

01:24:18.520 He never did it.

01:24:19.520 Thank goodness.

01:24:21.520 Because someone else killed Julie Love.

01:24:23.520 That is a true story.

01:24:25.520 So I'm very careful about naming a would-be suspect,

01:24:30.520 because that's what it looks like now.

01:24:32.520 I don't know what it looks like,

01:24:34.520 because the police did not do their job.

01:24:38.520 So I need all the facts.

01:24:40.520 This has to be reopened.

01:24:42.520 I hear you.

01:24:43.520 And I don't want to reach a convenient conclusion.

01:24:45.520 I want to reach a true conclusion.

01:24:46.520 I want to reach a true conclusion.

01:24:48.520 But you've got to look at the fiancé, sure.

01:24:50.520 Like the husband, like the ex, like the boyfriend.

01:24:52.520 You always look at those closest to the victim, of course.

01:24:55.520 But here's what he says.

01:24:57.520 Sam Goldberg.

01:24:59.520 He gave this statement to CNN in 2024.

01:25:01.520 2024 is his first public statement.

01:25:03.520 He hasn't spoken at all.

01:25:04.520 This is as much as we could find.

01:25:06.520 When Ellen took her own life, it left me bewildered.

01:25:09.520 She was a wonderful and kind person who had everything to live for.

01:25:12.520 When she died, a part of me died with her.

01:25:15.520 Unimaginably, in the years that have passed,

01:25:17.520 I have had to endure the unimaginable passing of my future wife

01:25:20.520 and the pathetic and despicable attempts to desecrate my reputation and her privacy 0.81

01:25:25.520 by creating a narrative that embraces lies, distortions, and falsehoods 0.96

01:25:28.520 in order to avoid the truth.

01:25:30.520 Mental illness is very real and has many victims.

01:25:34.520 I hope and pray that you never lose someone you love, like I did, to a terrible disease

01:25:38.520 and then be accused by ignorant and misinformed people of causing her death.

01:25:42.520 If you're really writing a truthful story, dig deeper, 0.61

01:25:45.520 and please do some good by raising awareness for mental health.

01:25:48.520 Best.

01:25:49.520 SG.

01:25:50.520 So, he obviously believes she was mentally ill and that she took her own life

01:25:56.520 and really hasn't said anything other than that since we heard on that 911 call him saying

01:26:02.520 she stabbed herself, she fell on a knife, one of those two things.

01:26:06.520 I'm aware of that.

01:26:08.520 I believe in light of the fact that the original medical examiner has now stated that this is not a suicide.

01:26:17.520 There's really no other alternative other than this is a homicide.

01:26:22.520 Wasn't that a weird statement, Nancy?

01:26:25.520 Can I ask you?

01:26:26.520 The counterargument to that is that he just came out and did that to settle this case that the parents brought.

01:26:33.520 And he said he withdrew the suicide declaration, but he didn't say homicide.

01:26:38.520 He said something else, which is not, you know, it's kind of weak sauce.

01:26:43.520 And that will not exactly help a new prosecutor say, I want to take this on as a homicide case.

01:26:49.520 There are only a limited number of CODs, manners, manners of death.

01:26:54.520 And those manners of death are suicide, accident, natural cause, undetermined, and homicide.

01:27:04.520 It's obviously not natural.

01:27:05.520 She didn't die of a heart attack.

01:27:07.520 They've said it's not suicide.

01:27:10.520 Okay.

01:27:11.520 We're running out of things.

01:27:13.520 Not natural, not suicide.

01:27:15.520 It's clearly not an accident.

01:27:17.520 That leaves two alternatives only, undetermined and homicide.

01:27:24.520 He says it's not suicide.

01:27:27.520 He's not the only one.

01:27:29.520 Everyone is falling in line now and agreeing it's not suicide.

01:27:33.520 So unless everyone else is a medical examiner that has inspected the body and read all the

01:27:39.520 autopsy reports and every scintilla of evidence and no more than all these doctors, then it

01:27:45.520 is not suicide.

01:27:46.520 It is not accident.

01:27:48.520 It is not natural causes.

01:27:50.520 It's either homicide or undetermined.

01:27:53.520 It's homicide.

01:27:55.520 That it's not a leap of faith or logic.

01:27:59.520 So you need the federal DOJ to get involved here.

01:28:04.520 This is where we are now.

01:28:06.520 And I am not ready to point the finger at him or anybody else until we have the facts.

01:28:14.520 Now, you don't normally hear me say that.

01:28:17.520 Normally, I think I know exactly what happened based on the facts that we've got.

01:28:21.520 But the problem here is that we don't have the facts.

01:28:25.520 We don't have them because of the shoddy investigation.

01:28:28.520 It's got to be started at the beginning, the very beginning with what we've got left.

01:28:33.520 I remember having to restart a murder investigation that was tried when I was in law school.

01:28:40.520 It took all the way up to the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals, one step below the US Supreme Court.

01:28:45.520 It landed back in the DA's office because of, by the way, interlocking confessions, interlocking statements.

01:28:53.520 They had to be ruled out.

01:28:54.520 The whole thing had to be retried, severed the two defendants separately.

01:28:58.520 And I got it.

01:28:59.520 When I got to the evidence room, Megan, there were two pieces of evidence left.

01:29:03.520 An X-ray, which I couldn't make heads or tails of and didn't know who it belonged to.

01:29:08.520 And a hat that said, kiss my bass.

01:29:12.520 I had to start ground zero and work the case up.

01:29:17.520 Got a conviction, by the way.

01:29:18.520 Well, I mean, he did.

01:29:19.520 Of course you did.

01:29:20.520 The jury did the right thing.

01:29:22.520 And that is what is happening here.

01:29:24.520 And it's so easy to go.

01:29:27.520 Yeah, this means that.

01:29:28.520 That means this.

01:29:30.520 But that is not prudent in pursuing justice in this case.

01:29:37.520 What is prudent right now is that we get an independent investigator.

01:29:43.520 And the only clear cut path I see, Megan, is a fed. 0.98

01:29:48.520 And, you know, I don't like the feds either.

01:29:50.520 But there are only hope.

01:29:53.520 There are only hope now.

01:29:55.520 Shapiro is tainted because he's the AG that was embroiled at the beginning.

01:29:59.520 That washed his hands and turned the other way like Pontius Pilate.

01:30:03.520 That's him.

01:30:04.520 He did nothing.

01:30:06.520 You can't have anyone connected to the earlier ADA's office.

01:30:10.520 In fact, I ran down a then ADA who read the file and was waving the flag.

01:30:19.520 Guys, this is not a suicide.

01:30:21.520 This is not a suicide.

01:30:23.520 Everybody knew at the time it wasn't a suicide.

01:30:25.520 So where does that leave Josh and Sandy Greenberg?

01:30:29.520 In a lot of pain.

01:30:30.520 Mm-hmm.

01:30:32.520 Mm-hmm.

01:30:33.520 The book is called What Happened to Ellen?

01:30:35.520 An American Miscarriage of Justice.

01:30:37.520 We're going to take a break and be right back with Nancy Gray. 0.74

01:30:40.520 So I'm going to ask about another big case in the news right now.

01:30:43.520 The Brian Kohlberger case and wait until you hear what the judge just ruled.

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01:31:52.520 I'm Megan Kelly, host of The Megan Kelly Show on Sirius XM.

01:31:57.520 It's your home for open, honest and provocative conversations with the most interesting and important

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01:32:55.520 The Brian Kohlberger case right now is set for trial this August.

01:32:59.520 Finally, after all these years of delay and some strange motions being filed, I think, by

01:33:07.520 the defense so far without success in recent days.

01:33:10.520 First, defense attorneys for Kohlberger asked the judge, Hippler, two Ps, you say it fast,

01:33:18.520 it could be confused for another name.

01:33:20.520 Judge Hippler was not impressed with the motion to disallow any reference to the bushy eyebrows.

01:33:29.520 That his defense attorneys didn't want the roommate's description before she knew who Brian Kohlberger was when she was just describing the intruder.

01:33:37.520 She saw he was wearing a mask but recognized his bushy eyebrows.

01:33:40.520 The judge has said that will not be barred.

01:33:43.520 That's a matter for cross-examination.

01:33:45.520 Secondly, the defense wanted to bring up that he's on the autism spectrum in like opening so that it might explain away what they suggested were some of his odd behaviors, perhaps during the hearing or during the trial.

01:34:03.520 And the judge said, you're not bringing that in.

01:34:06.520 You can if you want to put them on the stand and talk about him being on the spectrum.

01:34:09.520 Great.

01:34:10.520 But you can't just offer testimony as the lawyers in order to explain away either his behavior in the court or any other behavior in this case.

01:34:19.520 And they also asked him if they could call an expert to talk about his alleged OCD because they said prosecutors may make arguments that Kohlberger was destroying evidence right before law enforcement arrested him.

01:34:34.520 And so they wanted to get around having him testify by having an expert take the stand and say that's his OCD because I guess everybody who's got OCD puts all of their garbage in little Ziploc baggies and then has the garbage disposed of in the neighbor's trash.

01:34:50.520 But this is defense attorney Ann Taylor doing whatever she can to zealously represent her client. 0.98

01:34:55.520 So what do you make of what do you what does all that tell you about where this case is for the defense?

01:35:00.520 First of all, it tells me, Megan, that they're between a rock and hard spot.

01:35:04.520 Now, the judge has ruled that they may not bring in evidence of alleged autism on Kohlberger's behalf in the case in chief.

01:35:15.520 This is a death penalty case. It is a bifurcated trial trial split into first is the guilt innocence phase.

01:35:22.520 And if he is found guilty, which I predict he will be there is in the second phase of the trial, which is the sentencing phase where the jury will decide whether he gets the death penalty.

01:35:32.520 Now, regarding autism, the defense wanted to bring in their theory that he has autism, although apparently none of the defense experts have stated thus far that he is autistic or under the spectrum.

01:35:51.520 None of them have said that.

01:35:53.520 None of them have said that.

01:35:55.520 They said they wanted to bring it in, as you surmised, because of his odd behavior.

01:36:02.520 What odd behavior, the judge says?

01:36:04.520 I don't see any odd behavior.

01:36:05.520 He just sits there.

01:36:07.520 So, therefore, that's irrelevant.

01:36:10.520 If it becomes relevant, then I will review your motion again if you choose to renew it.

01:36:17.520 But as of right now, the only way it would be relevant is if they noted quirky or odd behavior when he takes a stand.

01:36:25.520 So, if you want to bring it in then, sure, but he'll have to take the stand, because just sitting there, I don't see any relevance.

01:36:35.520 However, if there is a guilty verdict and it goes to sentencing, I believe the judge will relent and bring in, if there is any, any expert that says he is autistic, to diminish his capacity to commit a crime.

01:36:53.520 Now, will it diminish his capacity to commit a crime?

01:36:57.520 No.

01:36:58.520 That's a big N-O.

01:36:59.520 Why?

01:37:00.520 This guy is a PhD student.

01:37:03.520 He has made stellar grades.

01:37:06.520 He is actually teaching other students.

01:37:12.520 He is not going to be deemed incapable or incompetent to commit a crime.

01:37:19.520 In fact, he was obsessed with committing crimes.

01:37:22.520 You know about the questionnaires.

01:37:24.520 He would send violent felons under the guise of studying criminology.

01:37:30.520 How did you feel right before you did it?

01:37:32.520 How did you pick your victim?

01:37:34.520 How did you make your exit?

01:37:35.520 In other words, how can I get out of this without getting caught?

01:37:39.520 They're between a rock and a hard spot.

01:37:41.520 His, Brian Kohlberger's DNA is on the knife sheath in the snap button where you put the knife in and you snap the sheath shut under a dead body.

01:37:52.520 So, again, rock and a hard spot.

01:37:55.520 That's where they are.

01:37:56.520 Uh, Howard Bloom, who's been all over the reporting on this case, reports that Kohlberger's mother, Marianne, uh, his, his reporting is that she's encouraging her son to plead not guilty, notwithstanding all this evidence.

01:38:11.520 And that there might even be a movement of foot by Kohlberger's defense attorneys to somehow rest the decision to stay in the not guilty camp away from Marianne and Brian as we get to the trial and somehow convince this judge to let them enter into some sort of a plea bargain negotiation with the prosecution.

01:38:34.520 That, that Brian Kohlberger is apparently not capable potentially of making this decision, that the mother's overly influential, and that Ann Taylor, as a defense attorney, probably knows better about what's going to happen at this trial. 0.83

01:38:48.520 There's no world in which Ann Taylor can cut a deal for him without his consent, right?

01:38:52.520 No world.

01:38:53.520 No world.

01:38:55.520 Um, as far as a guilty or not guilty, no. 0.68

01:38:59.520 As far as a, um, not guilty by reason of insanity, which he's not insane, guilty, but mentally ill. 0.56

01:39:08.520 He's not mentally ill.

01:39:09.520 There's no way that she can usurp his ability to enter a plea, either guilty or not guilty, or an Alford, which is, I accept my sentence, but I'm not going to say I did it.

01:39:23.520 I don't know, frankly, if the state would even go along with a guilty plea for life without parole.

01:39:29.520 I'm not sure that they would do that.

01:39:31.520 They are hell bent on seeking the death penalty, and he's not going to plead guilty to the death penalty.

01:39:37.520 To me, that means you're going to trial.

01:39:40.520 Now, there is a way that the judge could enter a blind plea, which is there's no recommendation by the state, but I don't think they would do that either.

01:39:52.520 Because what if the judge said, okay, yeah, I'll take your guilty plea.

01:39:56.520 You're getting the death penalty.

01:39:58.520 So I don't think there's going to be a blind plea.

01:40:01.520 Ann Taylor cannot plead in his behalf without his consent.

01:40:06.520 So with the mother trying to convince him to stick with the not guilty, according to Bloom, who's written a book about the case, that is undue influence on the son, where the defense attorney wants to enter a guilty plea.

01:40:23.520 That's what he's saying.

01:40:25.520 What he's saying is we're on our way to a trial, which Nancy will be all over, and we're going to cover a lot, too.

01:40:30.520 Great to see you.

01:40:31.520 Buy the book, What Happened to Ellen Out Today, and support the Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

01:40:35.520 Nancy, thank you.

01:40:36.520 We're back tomorrow.

01:40:37.520 We'll see you all then.

01:40:40.520 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. 0.94

01:40:42.520 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - April 22, 2025

Truth About Hegseth Smears and Leak Firings, and Shocking Details of Ellen Greenberg Case, with Steve Bannon and Nancy Grace ｜ Ep. 1054

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