The Megyn Kelly Show - Tucker and Lemon Firing Fallout, and Dark Brandon Returns, with Victor Davis Hanson, Emily Jashinsky, Michael Moynihan, and Vivek Ramaswamy ｜ Ep. 536

00:00:00.000 Now streaming on Paramount Plus.

00:00:02.960 Someone is trying to frame us.

00:00:04.960 Until our names are cleared.

00:00:06.960 We're fugitives from Interpol.

00:00:08.960 Like Bonnie and Clyde with better snacks.

00:00:11.960 Espionage?

00:00:12.960 You still as good a shot as you used to be?

00:00:14.960 Better.

00:00:16.960 Is there love language?

00:00:18.960 We like to walk that fine line between techno thriller

00:00:20.960 and romantic comedy.

00:00:22.960 We make up our own rules.

00:00:24.960 NCIS Tony and Ziva.

00:00:26.960 Now streaming on Paramount Plus.

00:00:30.000 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:32.000 Your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:42.000 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:43.000 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:45.000 It has been a wild 24 hours since we were last together.

00:00:49.000 Joe Biden made it official.

00:00:51.000 He's running for re-election.

00:00:52.000 Dark Brandon is back.

00:00:54.000 And the firing of Tucker Carlson and Don Lemon on the same day

00:00:58.000 continues to cause heads to explode.

00:01:00.000 We're learning a bit more about the details behind at least one of those.

00:01:05.000 Actually, both of those.

00:01:06.000 We're going to get to it all with a great lineup of guests, including the man who some say

00:01:10.000 is at least partly responsible for Don Lemon's demise.

00:01:14.000 I want to, I think, break some news for you.

00:01:18.000 Tucker Carlson hasn't actually been fired.

00:01:20.000 He's still an employee of the Fox News Channel.

00:01:24.000 What happened was Suzanne Scott called him.

00:01:27.000 She's the CEO on Monday morning and said he was not going to be allowed to do any more shows

00:01:35.000 and that he had been kicked out of his company email.

00:01:39.000 And now they're going to have to negotiate an exit.

00:01:44.000 Some reporting to me suggests that she said it's going to be an amicable parting.

00:01:51.000 Right.

00:01:52.000 Isn't it completely catching Tucker off guard?

00:01:56.000 But Tucker's not fired.

00:01:58.000 That's my information that he still needs to negotiate the exit and that right now he's

00:02:04.000 not free to launch a podcast or a digital show or negotiate with other employers at all

00:02:10.000 because he's still under contract.

00:02:13.000 They pulled his show off the air.

00:02:15.000 They also fired his executive producer, Justin Wells, and though he tried to find out why

00:02:21.000 they wouldn't tell him, they refused to tell him why.

00:02:24.000 I mean, to me, that's just so disheartening.

00:02:27.000 He's been at the at the company for years.

00:02:30.000 He'd been in the prime time for seven years and saw Fox News through one of the most difficult

00:02:37.000 times in its history, the immediate era post Roger Ailes, where they didn't know left from

00:02:42.000 right.

00:02:43.000 They really didn't have strong management leading the company, and they had lost two

00:02:48.000 of their biggest stars, Bill O'Reilly and me, at least at that time.

00:02:53.000 So Tucker takes over.

00:02:55.000 It's a huge order, you know, that he was given and he did it.

00:02:58.000 He smashed the ball out of the park and he took a lot of risks and he was heterodox.

00:03:03.000 He was he pushed against the orthodoxy on so many different things.

00:03:06.000 And typically Fox News like that.

00:03:09.000 So why?

00:03:10.000 Why now?

00:03:11.000 What was it that led them to treat their number one star with such disdain?

00:03:16.000 I mean, dripping disdain to the point where he can no longer access his email.

00:03:21.000 He doesn't get to tell his own team.

00:03:23.000 He doesn't get to say goodbye.

00:03:24.000 I mean, it's absolutely disrespectful to him.

00:03:27.000 And unlike Don Lemon, he hadn't been immersed in controversy after controversy inside the

00:03:34.000 building against his own colleagues.

00:03:36.000 Yes, the leftist media had been coming after him repeatedly.

00:03:39.000 And in the case of Dominion, to some extent, lawyers, though he wasn't their primary focus.

00:03:44.000 So what was it?

00:03:45.000 What would make your own company turn against you like that?

00:03:49.000 The Fox News audience is clearly mad and I don't blame them.

00:03:52.000 It'll be interesting to see what the ratings were for the 8 p.m.

00:03:55.000 hour last night.

00:03:56.000 Brian Kilmeade hosted it.

00:03:57.000 It's a rotating cast for now.

00:03:59.000 And we'll see what they decide to do there.

00:04:01.000 It's not Brian's fault.

00:04:02.000 I mean, here's Brian.

00:04:03.000 FYI, here he is in a moment where he is kind of acknowledging what happened.

00:04:07.000 I'll just play the 14 seconds.

00:04:08.000 It's not 21.

00:04:09.000 Hi, everybody, and welcome to Fox News tonight.

00:04:11.000 I am Brian Kilmeade.

00:04:12.000 As you probably have heard, Fox News and Tucker Carlson have agreed to part ways.

00:04:17.000 I wish Tucker the best.

00:04:18.000 I'm great friends with Tucker and always will be.

00:04:21.000 But right now it's time for Fox News tonight.

00:04:23.000 So let's get started.

00:04:24.000 Kilmeade's a sweet guy and he's a company man.

00:04:27.000 He's I'm sure he wasn't thrilled to be asked to do that show.

00:04:32.000 And that particular day.

00:04:34.000 But he did it.

00:04:35.000 He's a loyal employee.

00:04:37.000 And Fox News is banking on its audience, not leaving it on its audience, being more in

00:04:40.000 love with the Fox News brand than they were with Tucker.

00:04:43.000 And we'll see.

00:04:44.000 We'll see whether or not that's true.

00:04:45.000 But I just think the way they handled it was disrespectful and gross.

00:04:51.000 And I think Tucker Carlson deserved better.

00:04:53.000 I certainly hope that he uses Brian Friedman, my old lawyer, to get the remainder of his

00:05:00.000 contract.

00:05:01.000 The Wall Street Journal reporting that Tucker was making around 20 million dollars a year

00:05:05.000 and that they will pay him out on his deal.

00:05:08.000 I don't know when it expired, but he was in the process reportedly of negotiating a renewal.

00:05:12.000 So they should pay him out and they should let him out of his non compete so he can go out

00:05:16.000 there and get his voice on the air now when his audience will most be missing it.

00:05:21.000 Joining me now to discuss both media shakeups, the one at Fox, the one at CNN.

00:05:26.000 And by the way, NBC Universal Universal fired its head head honcho as well for an alleged

00:05:32.000 affair with an underling is the brilliant Victor Davis Hanson, senior fellow at the Hoover

00:05:37.000 Institution and host of the Victor Davis Hanson show.

00:05:41.000 Victor, welcome back.

00:05:42.000 I know you've been on Tucker's show many times and on other Fox News shows.

00:05:47.000 Let me just ask you.

00:05:48.000 I haven't heard it.

00:05:49.000 Your reaction to the news about him?

00:05:51.000 Well, I was supposed to go on there tomorrow night, so I had been talking to the producer

00:05:55.000 each week I go on and I was shocked because there was no adequate explanation.

00:06:01.000 And he's the lead in.

00:06:02.000 So when you have a lead in that anchors the subsequent shows and he's getting all of this

00:06:08.000 and his his audience had gone back up way back up, then it has to be something egregious.

00:06:14.000 But so far, I mean, there's been leaks that, oh, he said he bought Ray Epps, but and he said

00:06:20.000 that Ray Epps was involved.

00:06:23.000 But Ray Epps said right on the air, you know, we've got to go into the Capitol.

00:06:26.000 We've got to go in the Capitol.

00:06:27.000 I orchestrate.

00:06:28.000 All Tucker did was quote him verbatim.

00:06:30.000 And the words speak for themselves.

00:06:32.000 And then these other things about the voting machines.

00:06:35.000 Well, we saw that Tucker was pretty critical.

00:06:38.000 So they haven't and whatever narrative that keeps coming out, there's not any substantial

00:06:44.000 evidence that that narrative is going to convince people.

00:06:47.000 And it's kind of deja vu because I think that, you know, Arizona could be legitimately

00:06:53.000 called or not.

00:06:54.000 That's not the question.

00:06:55.000 But if you're a center right show and you're the first to call Arizona and you see these radical

00:07:00.000 things on the board, you might just want to take a deep breath and see what the consensus

00:07:05.000 is before you get out ahead of the pack.

00:07:07.000 So that got people angry and then people doubled down.

00:07:11.000 And I think a rule and you know better than I do, you don't attack your base.

00:07:16.000 So Tucker has become a spokesman for conservatives who feel that a lot of people are afraid to

00:07:22.000 say things that they know is true.

00:07:24.000 And they turn into him every night for him to be explicit and candid and take the heat

00:07:30.000 for them.

00:07:31.000 And then he articulates something.

00:07:33.000 And it's pretty tough sometimes, but I don't think it's unfair or inaccurate.

00:07:37.000 And so to silence that voice, you're going to get back to, I think they're

00:07:43.000 going to have a large defection from the audience.

00:07:46.000 And I'm somebody who really supports Fox News because I feel there's no other outlet with

00:07:53.000 that reach.

00:07:54.000 So they have, I guess what I'm saying, Megan, is they have responsibilities beyond just the

00:08:00.000 corporate level.

00:08:01.000 They have responsibilities to traditional America to offer them an alternative voice if

00:08:06.000 it's done professionally and candidly.

00:08:08.000 And he does that.

00:08:09.000 And to take that away without an adequate explanation is going to, I think, alienate a lot of people.

00:08:16.000 And we've seen that before.

00:08:17.000 And it took months to regain the confidence of their loyal supporters.

00:08:21.000 So that's what I hear.

00:08:23.000 I hear all these people, you know, and as a guest, I don't know what's going on, but

00:08:26.000 people will call you and say, what's going on?

00:08:29.000 And where's our Tucker?

00:08:31.000 And what can we do?

00:08:33.000 And then when you have the left leading up to this, like AOC saying he should be off and

00:08:38.000 he should be silenced.

00:08:39.000 And we got to get that guy off.

00:08:41.000 And Schumer, everybody was attacking him.

00:08:43.000 And then he's off.

00:08:44.000 It also empowers that leftist narrative that they have veto power over the media in particular.

00:08:50.000 And this follows the FBI with Twitter.

00:08:52.000 And so everybody is saying, why is the left controlling the free flow of information?

00:08:57.000 And why do people in the conservative side allow them to influence?

00:09:01.000 Whether that's true they influence or not doesn't matter.

00:09:03.000 That's the impression.

00:09:04.000 So it doesn't.

00:09:05.000 I know.

00:09:06.000 I can't find a world in which I believe that Fox bowed to the AOCs of the world. 0.56

00:09:11.000 I don't think they did, but.

00:09:13.000 I can find one in which they bowed to the more establishment Republicans who have also

00:09:17.000 been after Tucker for quite some time and and maybe made a decision to move the channel

00:09:22.000 back to that more establishment type programming.

00:09:25.000 I don't know that that's what they're doing, but I could see at least that happening.

00:09:28.000 I will say my my reporting also has led me to learn from a source close to the Murdoch's

00:09:35.000 that it was Rupert's decision and that it was reportedly a personal decision, that it

00:09:40.000 was not necessarily for any reason other than Rupert's personal feelings.

00:09:43.000 And I don't know exactly what that was based on.

00:09:46.000 But what you're seeing now in places like media.com, they're reporting this was a decision

00:09:51.000 made by Lachlan Murdoch and Suzanne Scott.

00:09:53.000 And that's not true.

00:09:54.000 This was a decision made by Rupert, as of course it would have to be.

00:09:57.000 But now I've been told that by a source very well positioned to know it came from the big,

00:10:02.000 big boss himself.

00:10:03.000 Of course, Lachlan and Suzanne are throwing themselves on the sword because they never

00:10:06.000 want the old man to have to take the responsibility for something like this.

00:10:09.000 And he somehow turned on him.

00:10:11.000 And I don't I don't know why he turned on Tucker because he'd been supporting him through

00:10:16.000 controversy after controversy, which you're going to get if you're in the prime time of Fox

00:10:21.000 News.

00:10:22.000 And you're really going to get if you're Tucker, who's totally fearless.

00:10:26.000 It's interesting, Victor, to me that it happened.

00:10:29.000 And by the way, some reporting that the decision was made on Sunday night.

00:10:32.000 It wasn't.

00:10:33.000 It was made on Friday night.

00:10:34.000 That's that's my information.

00:10:36.000 Friday night.

00:10:37.000 What happened?

00:10:38.000 Tucker went and gave a speech at the Heritage Foundation.

00:10:41.000 And, you know, it was steeped in messaging we've heard from Tucker, you know, before that

00:10:46.000 night.

00:10:47.000 But I did think it was kind of interesting, his messaging that night about good and evil

00:10:51.000 and with some religious tones in it.

00:10:54.000 Let me give you a sample.

00:10:56.000 It's Sot 20.

00:10:58.000 If you want to know what's evil and what's good, what are the characteristics of those?

00:11:03.000 And by the way, you know, I think the Athenians would have agreed with this.

00:11:06.000 This is not necessarily just a Christian notion.

00:11:08.000 This is kind of a, I would say, widely agreed upon understanding of good and evil.

00:11:13.000 What are its products?

00:11:15.000 What do these two conditions produce?

00:11:19.000 Well, I mean, good is characterized by order, calmness, tranquility, peace, whatever you want

00:11:28.000 to call it, lack of conflict, cleanliness.

00:11:33.000 Cleanliness is next to godliness.

00:11:36.000 It's true.

00:11:37.000 It is.

00:11:38.000 And evil is characterized by their opposites.

00:11:42.000 Violence, hate, disorder, division, disorganization, and filth.

00:11:49.000 So if you are all in on the things that produce the latter basket of outcomes, what you're really

00:11:57.000 advocating for is evil.

00:11:59.000 That's just true.

00:12:00.000 By the way, it's a rhetorical device by Tucker that I love.

00:12:04.000 That's just true.

00:12:05.000 I love that he said, it does make you accept whatever he says.

00:12:09.000 And that particular statement is true.

00:12:11.000 But I do wonder, you know, sitting here today, I don't know the answer.

00:12:15.000 What was the last straw for Rupert?

00:12:17.000 Yeah, I don't know either.

00:12:20.000 But I think one of his unique characteristics is that he is willing to attack the corporate

00:12:29.000 right.

00:12:30.000 He brings on people like Glenn Greenwald.

00:12:32.000 He brings on people like Robert F.

00:12:33.000 Kennedy.

00:12:34.000 They're not traditional conservatives.

00:12:35.000 Not all the time.

00:12:36.000 Sometimes they are.

00:12:37.000 Sometimes he brings in all of those guests.

00:12:39.000 And then just when you think that he's a just when you think that he's a mouthpiece because

00:12:45.000 he's on Fox for conservative view, he'll attack Mitch McConnell or Paul Ryan, who's on the

00:12:50.000 board.

00:12:51.000 So I think in their way of thinking, he can say anything, anytime, anywhere about anyone.

00:12:56.000 And sometimes that can be disturbing, but that's what wins him his loyal audience.

00:13:03.000 And you saw there that he's talking in philosophical terms, historical terms.

00:13:07.000 And so the way he looks at the news, it's not necessarily if I attack this person, will

00:13:15.000 somebody from the RNC call me up?

00:13:17.000 Or will this person get angry and not, you know, say something about?

00:13:21.000 He doesn't care.

00:13:22.000 He's at a point in his life, he doesn't care.

00:13:24.000 And that's liberated him.

00:13:25.000 And people sense that.

00:13:27.000 So they feel that he will tell them what he feels.

00:13:30.000 And and what what does he feel?

00:13:32.000 He feels that corporate America is joined the woke.

00:13:37.000 And so and the woke wouldn't have been successful had there not been Romney like people on the

00:13:42.000 McCain right of the Republican Party.

00:13:45.000 Yeah.

00:13:46.000 That was at the protests.

00:13:47.000 Absolutely.

00:13:48.000 Or.

00:13:49.000 Yeah, exactly.

00:13:50.000 And or Antifa, they were not willing to stand up for their generations past.

00:13:54.000 The dead who created this country, the values and the Republican traditional conservative

00:14:00.000 movement wasn't doing that.

00:14:01.000 And yet the people who were doing it was Donald Trump.

00:14:04.000 And yet he didn't.

00:14:05.000 He didn't come off as a Trump megaphone.

00:14:07.000 He was critical of Trump in many ways.

00:14:09.000 So I don't think people could categorize him as easy as they thought.

00:14:13.000 That's what drove his former neoconservative colleagues at the weekly, the defunct weekly

00:14:20.000 standard or the Bulwark.

00:14:21.000 They absolutely despised him because he was liberated.

00:14:25.000 He didn't.

00:14:26.000 He didn't react.

00:14:27.000 Usually when people speak as candidly as he does and they say something that that really

00:14:32.000 hits home, then they backtrack or they tweet.

00:14:35.000 I didn't mean it or I was misquoted or but he doesn't.

00:14:38.000 No.

00:14:39.000 And so that made him that made him both a big target, but it gave him an enormous credibility

00:14:44.000 and affection for his audience.

00:14:46.000 And I can tell you, just being on a show each week, I'd have people come up and say,

00:14:51.000 they didn't say, congratulations, you're doing a good job.

00:14:54.000 They said, I wish you could tell Tucker what a good job he is.

00:14:59.000 And so he had a loyal audience and that loyal audiences, you know, better than I am not

00:15:03.000 a media person, but that undulated and that wave rippled throughout the entire evening shows.

00:15:11.000 All of them.

00:15:12.000 Oh, yeah, he was.

00:15:13.000 Of course, he was a great lead in for Hannity.

00:15:15.000 If his numbers go down, the entire primetime will go down as well.

00:15:20.000 I will say this.

00:15:21.000 I did some digging and found out from sources who are in a position to know that there is

00:15:26.000 no pending sale of Fox and they don't even have anybody looking under the hood or kicking

00:15:32.000 the tires right now.

00:15:33.000 But the Daily Mail is reporting that Carlson has told people he believes his show is being

00:15:40.000 taken off the air because the Murdoch children intend to sell Fox at some point.

00:15:45.000 Now, what's interesting to me about that, Victor, is that would make sense.

00:15:50.000 That to me actually would make sense.

00:15:52.000 You've got Rupert right now, who's got four, I think, voting shares.

00:15:55.000 You've got Lachlan, James, Elizabeth and Prudence, his four older children, each of whom has

00:16:00.000 one voting share.

00:16:02.000 You know, there's a question about who's going to take over.

00:16:05.000 He wants it to be Lachlan.

00:16:06.000 But when Rupert goes, it's unclear how those other three are going to align.

00:16:12.000 James and Rupert James and Lachlan hate each other.

00:16:15.000 They don't speak in the two older female sisters are anybody's guess. 0.55

00:16:20.000 Elizabeth's been more liberal, but she was also seen with Rupert at a sporting event recently

00:16:25.000 and Lachlan was there, too.

00:16:26.000 So we don't know.

00:16:27.000 It's very much like succession.

00:16:28.000 The reason I raise all of this is if the children are eyeing a sale of Fox News, it might

00:16:33.000 be easier without Tucker for the reasons that we've been discussing.

00:16:37.000 And Tucker, while a juggernaut ratings wise, was not a juggernaut advertising dollars wise

00:16:44.000 because the left was effective in pushing its boycotts of him.

00:16:47.000 You know, I disclosed on the air, I think yesterday when I was hosting the 9 p.m., I was told that

00:16:53.000 my show made 100 million dollars a year in advertising.

00:16:56.000 And that was back in 2015, 2016.

00:16:59.000 So it would be higher now if, you know, assuming I'd stayed.

00:17:03.000 Tucker's show, I'm sure, wasn't making anywhere near that because of the boycotts, the nonstop

00:17:08.000 media matters, sleeping giants boycotts that these advertisers bent the knee to hobbling

00:17:15.000 the income of that of that particular hour in a way that is really unfair and gross.

00:17:20.000 And so but the reason I'm saying all this is I could see some decision by the board or

00:17:24.000 by the Murdochs to say long term, we can put somebody in there who gets 70 percent of his

00:17:29.000 ratings and maybe we earn even more money in that hour because the advertisers will come

00:17:33.000 back and then we can sell the channel and F Tucker and F his audience.

00:17:39.000 We made you and helped you fall in love with him.

00:17:41.000 We don't care.

00:17:43.000 And to me, that's kind of one of my main takeaways.

00:17:46.000 Don't trust them, because as soon as you fall in love with somebody, they don't care whatever

00:17:51.000 their consideration considerations are.

00:17:53.000 They'll they'll yank the host and they won't even have the decency to tell you why or tell

00:17:58.000 him why.

00:17:59.000 Yeah, well, I think the problem is what you put your finger on.

00:18:03.000 It's not an isolated episode so that the viewer says this is episodic.

00:18:08.000 Now you and Bill left and then there was it was down and then they worked hard to build

00:18:14.000 it up. And then all of the conundrum about the election really spiked Newsmax and they

00:18:19.000 lost about a third of their audience for a while.

00:18:21.000 So there was that second episode.

00:18:23.000 And now there's this third.

00:18:25.000 And so what a viewer wants is he wants a predictability.

00:18:29.000 He comes home.

00:18:30.000 He goes to work.

00:18:31.000 He's he's exposed to woke all day.

00:18:34.000 He hears it everywhere.

00:18:35.000 He looks at the NBA.

00:18:36.000 He looks at the Oscars.

00:18:38.000 It's everywhere.

00:18:39.000 But he just wants a sanctuary, a monastery of the mind that he can relax or she can relax

00:18:44.000 and be reassured she's not crazy.

00:18:46.000 So they go to Fox.

00:18:47.000 But if Fox cannot offer that continuity and that reinsurance because of these these periodic

00:18:54.000 radical transformations that also suggest that there are other reasons, maybe they're

00:18:59.000 not or maybe they are, about why people leave that may be ideological beyond just the corporate

00:19:05.000 bottom line, then it can't offer that reassurance.

00:19:08.000 So when you think that, well, maybe the children want to buy it.

00:19:11.000 Well, who would buy it?

00:19:13.000 The people who would buy it would be conservative, I think, because the other market is kind of

00:19:19.000 saturated.

00:19:20.000 I don't think there's a market for a Romney.

00:19:23.000 No offense for Mitt Romney, but a Romney or Mitch McConnell station, I don't think it's

00:19:28.000 going to get anybody left or right in that cable market.

00:19:31.000 So it's going to be sort of a conservative group.

00:19:34.000 And then when they look at it, they think, well, I know Tucker may not have got the revenue

00:19:40.000 dollars I would need, but that is somebody that is the anchor for the whole evening that

00:19:45.000 does be become.

00:19:46.000 And just to add to that, Victor, he drives audience and audience matters when you go to

00:19:52.000 the cable subscribers and say, pay pay us three cents more for the Fox to have the Fox News

00:19:58.000 channel on your lineup.

00:19:59.000 Look at the numbers we draw.

00:20:01.000 So it's not like Tucker was brought no value.

00:20:05.000 I'm just saying in the ad dollars.

00:20:06.000 No, it doesn't.

00:20:07.000 But for sure.

00:20:08.000 He drove numbers subscription.

00:20:10.000 It would be if I used an old because I'm an old man.

00:20:13.000 If I said it would be like the San Francisco Giants trading Willie Mays in his prime and

00:20:19.000 then saying buy the Giants now because because of what?

00:20:22.000 And people would say, well, the corporation is not it's not maximizing its base.

00:20:27.000 So I don't I don't think it would have as much value if I were the Murdoch children and

00:20:34.000 I wanted to sell it.

00:20:35.000 Then I would if I was angry at Tucker, I would hold my nose and be quiet.

00:20:39.000 And and then I would make sure that he had a big audience and support him.

00:20:43.000 And then I would sell it.

00:20:44.000 But I so I think what I'm getting that I'm not informed at all, but it seems to me and

00:20:50.000 that happens a lot in the corporation.

00:20:52.000 You saw it with Disney.

00:20:53.000 People make decisions and emotional parameters sometimes, and they don't think it through

00:21:01.000 even the smartest people.

00:21:03.000 Elon Musk said on Tucker's interview, he said, I I guess I I'm very smart guy, but I paid 40

00:21:10.000 billion.

00:21:11.000 I did buy Twitter.

00:21:12.000 But he said, I paid 30 trillion billion dollars more than I needed to for Twitter.

00:21:18.000 So people make decisions that are not always what they do.

00:21:22.000 And if I were the people at Fox and I'm not and and I own a great deal to go on there with

00:21:29.000 the host.

00:21:30.000 But I think I would just take a cooling off period and then I would have a press release

00:21:34.000 that there was a misunderstanding and we are going to work through this and Tucker will

00:21:40.000 be on in two or three weeks.

00:21:41.000 I don't know if Tucker would do that, but that's what I would do if I were the the I

00:21:45.000 know he might.

00:21:46.000 Victor, he might.

00:21:47.000 I think I think Tucker was truly stunned that at the decision.

00:21:50.000 I think he thought they were working toward a contract renewal in good faith and doesn't

00:21:54.000 know where this came from.

00:21:55.000 But you do have the left celebrating this.

00:21:58.000 I mean, it was to the point yesterday where on Twitter it almost looked like Tucker, God

00:22:02.000 forbid, had died.

00:22:03.000 People were all the conservatives were posting like when I was down and out, Tucker invited

00:22:08.000 me to Thanksgiving dinner when nobody would platform my book because it was too controversial.

00:22:12.000 Tucker put me on.

00:22:13.000 OK, now take a deep breath.

00:22:14.000 Tucker is alive.

00:22:15.000 He's OK.

00:22:16.000 He's going to be fine.

00:22:18.000 But the left, their messaging was the same in a different way.

00:22:22.000 Like ding dong.

00:22:23.000 The witch is dead was essentially what they said.

00:22:25.000 We played the video clip yesterday.

00:22:27.000 Look at the difference.

00:22:28.000 I mean, so you have somebody like Chris Matthews.

00:22:31.000 Excuse me.

00:22:32.000 Chris Wallace, who's on there, who's got from a famous name.

00:22:35.000 He does a good job.

00:22:36.000 But then he is angry and lets it be known that Fox, he feels is too far right for his professional

00:22:42.000 integrity or something.

00:22:44.000 And so he leaves voluntarily.

00:22:46.000 But maybe there were ratings problems.

00:22:48.000 Who knows the story?

00:22:49.000 There were.

00:22:50.000 But yeah, there were.

00:22:51.000 He wasn't he wasn't resonating.

00:22:53.000 So he lost his his base or his audience.

00:22:55.000 But my point is that when those people leave, they act as if they're not forced out, but

00:23:02.000 it's their own private choice or it's our own volition.

00:23:07.000 But when you have a conservative, they always leave, it seems to me, because people are

00:23:13.000 doing something to them.

00:23:14.000 And that's not good.

00:23:15.000 In other words, Chris.

00:23:16.000 And Fox, like allowing Tucker to get drawn and quartered in the public square.

00:23:19.000 I mean, just absolutely.

00:23:20.000 He left with more telling, leaking it to Dylan, to Dylan Byers, who broke the story.

00:23:25.000 Yes.

00:23:26.000 Within 10 minutes of telling Tucker.

00:23:28.000 I know.

00:23:29.000 Why would you have Chris Matthews, Chris Wallace's departure done with more calm and professionalism

00:23:37.000 than Tucker Carlson?

00:23:38.000 Because he much better.

00:23:39.000 He better represented your market.

00:23:41.000 He was more loyal to Fox.

00:23:43.000 And I don't get that.

00:23:45.000 And so I think it's reflective that Fox is in a difficult position because the Republican

00:23:56.000 Party has bifurcated.

00:23:57.000 And whether they like it or not, we're never going to go back to a John McCain, Mitch McConnell,

00:24:05.000 Paul Ryan, and John Mitt Romney messaging, you know, a flexible, porous border.

00:24:12.000 All we care about is capital gains cuts.

00:24:15.000 We don't, we just have, you know, any type of libertarian trade policy.

00:24:19.000 If China beats us, well, we're going to get more competitive and that's good. 1.00

00:24:24.000 And that's over with.

00:24:25.000 It's now not a party of the very rich.

00:24:28.000 It's a party of the upper middle class to the lower middle class.

00:24:31.000 And I think a lot of people like the Disney people or American Airlines or all of these

00:24:38.000 corporate people can't quite adjust to that yet.

00:24:41.000 Because in some ways, if you look at the congressional districts by income or you look by zip code,

00:24:48.000 it's just overwhelming that the Democratic Party is represented by the very wealthy.

00:24:53.000 And they outspend Republicans two or three to one.

00:24:56.000 And so for somebody, somebody in a conservative show has to reflect the new Republican Party.

00:25:04.000 And that's going to be, by definition, very suspicious of corporatism and one world ism and globalism and all of that stuff at the expense of the people in East Palestine, for example.

00:25:18.000 So if somebody, if Biden or Buttigieg won't go to East Palestine, then somebody is going to champion that. 0.54

00:25:24.000 And that had traditionally not been a Republican.

00:25:26.000 It is now.

00:25:27.000 So you have to have people in the Fox community that represent that new base of support.

00:25:34.000 It's growing.

00:25:35.000 And sometimes if I may add, not just that people who aren't just glomming on, you know, like Tucker was able to give voice to those people, because even though Tucker has a privileged background, I would be the first to tell you that he just got it.

00:25:50.000 He just gets it.

00:25:51.000 He's an avid reader.

00:25:52.000 He's consumed news for long enough that he understands where the factions lie.

00:25:56.000 And he's very anti elitist.

00:25:58.000 I think others over there drafted behind Tucker and would wait for Tucker's messaging before they then change their own messaging.

00:26:04.000 It'll be interesting to see if they can do it without him.

00:26:08.000 Can I ask you, though, about AOC?

00:26:10.000 Because what we hear from the left these days is we're not cancel culture.

00:26:14.000 We're not pro cancel.

00:26:15.000 There is no cancel culture.

00:26:16.000 There's no cancel culture.

00:26:17.000 I give you AOC and her little online video on Tucker yesterday.

00:26:23.000 Tucker Carlson is out at Fox News.

00:26:27.000 Couldn't have happened to a better guy.

00:26:30.000 I also kind of feel like I'm, like, waiting for the cut scene at the end of a Marvel movie.

00:26:36.000 And then you see, like, the villain's, like, hand reemerge.

00:26:41.000 De-platforming works.

00:26:43.000 And it is important.

00:26:46.000 Yeah.

00:26:47.000 De-platforming works.

00:26:49.000 And it is important.

00:26:50.000 Here's a want to be Marxist.

00:26:53.000 And every time she's on film, it's either she's posing as if she's a Hollywood celebrity or she's fixing her makeup or she's in some designer dress.

00:27:01.000 She's about as Marxist as I don't know. 0.89

00:27:04.000 She's a big phony and she has zero credibility among American people. 1.00

00:27:08.000 And it's innate to the whole woke movement. 0.96

00:27:11.000 The woke movement never is.

00:27:13.000 It has no popular support in the sense of 51 percent want the transgender agenda.

00:27:20.000 They want the six and a half million illegal entries.

00:27:22.000 They love what happened in Afghanistan.

00:27:24.000 They want a blank check in Ukraine.

00:27:26.000 They don't have that support.

00:27:28.000 They do have it in the institutions and the institutions are corporate America, K through 12 academia, Silicon Valley.

00:27:35.000 And they love people like that.

00:27:38.000 But she's not a revolutionary. 1.00

00:27:39.000 She's not a she has no popular support.

00:27:42.000 She's an artifact of a bicoastal, bankrupt, upper middle class, wealthy elite. 1.00

00:27:49.000 And so that's what she's catering to. 0.94

00:27:51.000 But all of these left wing movements, whether they're Bolsheviks or Jacobin or the 60s, intrinsic to them, they have to be authoritarian.

00:28:00.000 They all are authoritarian because they cannot trust the will of the people because people, whether it's Nicaragua or Cuba or Venezuela or the EU and Brexit, people get sick of it.

00:28:11.000 It's contrary to human nature.

00:28:12.000 And so they have to be cancel culture.

00:28:14.000 And if we had an ACLU like we used to have in the 1950s or 60s, they would have been speaking out against all of these suppressions of free speech on Twitter and everything.

00:28:25.000 But we have none of them anymore.

00:28:27.000 They're all become Jacobin, Marxist, Bolsheviks. 0.96

00:28:30.000 And I'm not trying to exaggerate.

00:28:32.000 So I think that it's intrinsic.

00:28:34.000 It's it's part of their DNA to suppress free speech because that that suffocates their position, transparency and open debate.

00:28:43.000 You saw that with Don Lemon in his last debate when he was interviewing the presidential candidate, the new guy, and he couldn't couldn't debate him.

00:28:51.000 All he had to revert to was, I'm a black man.

00:28:54.000 I'm a black man as a black man. 0.78

00:28:56.000 And that was just a retreat into nihilism.

00:29:00.000 He had no arguments because there were no arguments to make that were not based on our superficial appearance.

00:29:06.000 That's incidental, not essential to who we are.

00:29:09.000 But I'm sure you're all broken up about, you know, what morning show are you going to watch now, Victor?

00:29:13.000 Now that Don's gone.

00:29:14.000 They're very different cases, aren't they?

00:29:16.000 One person walks away with three and a half million audience and the other has basically 150 or 200.

00:29:23.000 And and one person is being sued, I guess, by a female who says his cast was unfair to her.

00:29:32.000 I don't want to prejudice that case.

00:29:34.000 But Tucker is not that way.

00:29:35.000 He's never said anything that were sexist or misogynist on there.

00:29:39.000 John Lemon has.

00:29:40.000 Yeah.

00:29:41.000 And he it's very funny that he had no audience and he was overtly misogynist.

00:29:47.000 Yeah.

00:29:48.000 Tucker, who's being sued or his staff is by women for something that it's not apparent on the air from Tucker.

00:29:55.000 And he's very successful.

00:29:57.000 And yet they're trying to collate the two.

00:29:59.000 Yeah.

00:30:00.000 Tucker was very brilliant on CNN to kind of package it.

00:30:03.000 Tucker used some nasty words about Sidney Powell, which he admitted to and we're in writing, but it's a different story than you're actually diminishing the chances of one of the first female presidential candidates entirely by saying you're past your prime because you're 51 years old.

00:30:15.000 That's just the latest example we could keep going on.

00:30:17.000 Don and his diva like behavior and abuse of his colleagues and blah, but we could keep going.

00:30:21.000 Victor, thank you for coming on with your input.

00:30:24.000 Thank you, Megan.

00:30:26.000 Coming up, two of our favorites join us with more reaction to the breaking news.

00:30:30.000 Emily Jashinsky and Michael Moynihan with their thoughts on Don Lamont.

00:30:34.000 And we'll show you the reaction from the CNN hosts, his his co-hosts this morning.

00:30:39.000 Here with more reaction to the media world shakeup, Emily Jashinsky, culture editor at The Federalist and Michael Moynihan, co-host of The Fifth Column podcast.

00:30:51.000 Guys, my read of the various reporting on this, I mean, it's all over the board.

00:30:57.000 Everybody claims to know why he was fired.

00:30:59.000 Nobody knows why Tucker was fired.

00:31:00.000 That's that's what you can glean.

00:31:02.000 I'll tell you my own reporting.

00:31:04.000 It was Rupert's decision and it was some sort of personal reason.

00:31:08.000 It was Rupert's opinion that he should go, not not necessarily because of a sale, but there could be one potentially down the road in the offing.

00:31:15.000 But I'll just give you some flavor. NPR, David Spoken Flick, saying I've spoken with three people with knowledge of Fox's ouster of Tucker.

00:31:22.000 They say his digital exchanges captured by the Dominion legal team echo the suite of concerns alleged by his ex producer, Abby Grossberg, that his show's workplace was defined by sexism and bigotry.

00:31:34.000 I don't believe that for one second. I don't believe the Abby Grossberg thing had anything to do with Tucker's ouster.

00:31:42.000 I reject that, although it's absurd how this woman and her legal team are trying to act like they got him fired. 0.92

00:31:48.000 I mean, it's just if you read that, they're like, this is a first step in accountability toward Abby.

00:31:53.000 Oh, come on. If you think he was fired over that, you're nuts. 0.99

00:31:56.000 I guarantee you he talked to Abby Grossberg maybe once to say hello to this person when she joined his team and never again. 0.98

00:32:01.000 I guarantee you. OK, Brian Stelter quoting The Washington Post.

00:32:07.000 The Washington Post. Dozens of communications from Carlson and other Fox personnel remain out of public view, redacted at the request of Fox attorneys in the Dominion lawsuit.

00:32:15.000 But they've been seen by talks top Fox executives suggesting that there are far more damaging exchanges in there by Tucker about people in management.

00:32:23.000 That is a possibility. I am open minded to that, that they he said some bad things about executives that tick people off.

00:32:29.000 Daily Beast. Lachlan Murdoch and Suzanne Scott made the call on Friday night again.

00:32:36.000 No, it was Rupert to can him in his show. Thanks largely and surprisingly, in part to vulgar comments he made about Sidney Powell,

00:32:46.000 as evidenced by the discovery in the Dominion case and Tucker's lawsuit or deposition in which he admitted to calling her the C word and said he was embarrassed about it.

00:32:55.000 Zero chance. No way. There is zero chance Fox fired him because he used that word about Sidney Powell.

00:33:03.000 It just didn't happen. No, no, I reject that. OK, let me just move on. Wall Street Journal.

00:33:09.000 Now that's owned by Rupert. So now we're getting closer to the possibility of at least what Fox wants the messaging to be.

00:33:18.000 Carlson, whose contract was renewed in 2021, found out he's being let go about 10 minutes before the network announced his departure.

00:33:25.000 Let's see. I had it here someplace, but I think they, too, were saying revelations in the Dominion lawsuit caught them off guard and so on.

00:33:36.000 So I I still don't know the answer, you guys, but let's just spend a minute on this Abby Grossberg, who is alleging toxic work environment. 1.00

00:33:44.000 She worked for Tucker, as far as I can tell, one month.

00:33:47.000 She was hired on his team in August and then she got deposed in in September and fired, fired because as soon as she got deposed by Dominion, she came out saying Fox twisted my words.

00:33:58.000 They made me work with a lawyer who tried to change my testimony. I'm filing a lawsuit against you. And Fox is like, oh, you revealed a bunch of privileged information.

00:34:05.000 You're fired. Anyway, what's your take on where we stand today? Emily, start with you.

00:34:10.000 Yeah, that's really interesting. Really interesting point.

00:34:12.000 The idea that these hardened media executives had retreated to their fainting couches after hearing Tucker use the C word about Sidney Powell is just unbelievable to the point of laughable.

00:34:23.000 Right. Exactly. Exactly. And my interpretation of all this is that it's it's a it's their excuse to get rid of somebody who they found politically to be a problem for them.

00:34:35.000 They didn't want to sort of be backing the populist message. And I know Victor Davis Hanson talked a little bit about that earlier.

00:34:41.000 I think that's really what it is, is that like Rupert had had enough to your reporting, Megan, and all of this after the Dominion decision snowballs into giving him a really convenient excuse to just say we're done.

00:34:53.000 We're done. It's over. Tucker Carlson obviously had there are a couple of things were in any normal workplace.

00:35:00.000 You know, if a man is using the C word and it comes out and, you know, discovery or whatever.

00:35:04.000 Yeah, you get reprimanded, reprimanded. But this is the top person on their network.

00:35:09.000 Let's not act like a human, a human resources dispute is all Fox needed. That was just a bridge too far for them.

00:35:17.000 Now, you know, he's he's insulting the executives. Everybody who's worked in journalism knows there should always be a hostile relationship between the business side and the news side.

00:35:26.000 That's not unfamiliar to Fox whatsoever. So to act like all of this, you know, this was just the final straw for them, I think is ridiculous. 0.96

00:35:33.000 But I do think it's the final straw in terms of having a convenient excuse to get rid of somebody that they they're sort of politics.

00:35:41.000 They were no longer comfortable espousing or supporting as a network.

00:35:45.000 That's the best guest, the best guest that I have. But it's it's very strange to see it.

00:35:50.000 Fox leaking to the media and getting closer and closer to what their perspective is on this, because I don't think it's actually the truth.

00:35:57.000 Here's just the background, as I understand it, on this producer.

00:36:01.000 She worked for Maria and she wound up complaining. 1.00

00:36:06.000 I couldn't fact check Maria because we were understaffed. 1.00

00:36:09.000 OK, that that's no excuse. You're a producer.

00:36:12.000 You can fact check. Fox News has a lot of resources, including this huge resource called The Brain Room, which was fact checking the Sidney Powell claims.

00:36:19.000 You didn't need to do it yourself. So that to me sounds already like somebody who's got some sour grapes about her experience and is trying to blame somebody else for something she fell down on.

00:36:28.000 I'm not excusing Maria here, but I'm not excusing Abby Grossman Berg for the behavior either.

00:36:33.000 Go call The Brain Room. They did fact check Sidney Powell.

00:36:36.000 So then here's what happened. She joined Fox News in 2019. 0.87

00:36:39.000 She worked for Maria in August of 2022.

00:36:41.000 She started to work with Tucker's team in September of 2022.

00:36:45.000 She sat for her first deposition in the Dominion case.

00:36:48.000 Then she filed a lawsuit in March.

00:36:51.000 So what's that? Six months later, March 20th, 2023, she filed a lawsuit against Fox saying your lawyer tried to strong arm me at that deposition into saying nicer things about the staff than I wanted to say.

00:37:04.000 They made me run cover for people like Tucker.

00:37:07.000 And it was misogynistic because they were trying to hang me and Maria out to dry.

00:37:13.000 And this is a misogynistic place.

00:37:15.000 And I've been taping people.

00:37:16.000 And apparently she's going to air some of her tapes later today on MSNBC. 0.65

00:37:19.000 And as far as I can tell, Tucker has never even met this person.

00:37:24.000 So whatever misogyny she was subjected to, I suppose, could have been amongst his staff.

00:37:29.000 But Moynihan, the idea that that's what led Rupert to cut ties with Tucker, his number one star, is laughable.

00:37:38.000 I mean, it's laughable.

00:37:40.000 I'm literally laughing.

00:37:41.000 It's laughable. 0.92

00:37:42.000 If you know anything about Rupert Murdoch, I mean, even the most sort of baseline stuff about how the man built his empire, you know that he's not a fool. 0.88

00:37:51.000 And he's not someone that will, you know, crumble to a 20 odd year old woman who worked there for a month.

00:37:58.000 And by the way, who is taping people?

00:38:00.000 Is that a normal thing that should one expect to be taped by a new hire who then is going to sue you a few months later for misogyny and various other things?

00:38:09.000 It literally makes no sense.

00:38:10.000 But when, you know, it's a mugs game to try to figure out why Tucker got fired.

00:38:15.000 Right.

00:38:16.000 But one of the things I think is quite revealing about it is when I've been kind of consuming all of this stuff for the past 24 hours, it shows you kind of in a way why you can't trust the media.

00:38:26.000 Because I don't think this is deliberate.

00:38:28.000 I don't think people are doing this deliberately.

00:38:30.000 People are very willing to run with sources who work inside the News Corp building, say they know something, just to be first.

00:38:38.000 Because you have, like, mainstream people from The Wall Street Journal to The Washington Post to the LA Times to every, you know, web publication like The Daily Beast, giving you a different story.

00:38:49.000 We know this is what happened.

00:38:51.000 And it's all rather different, isn't it?

00:38:53.000 So who does one trust?

00:38:54.000 And now you transpose that to other things.

00:38:56.000 You're like, well, geez, when they're trying to get stories out really quick.

00:39:00.000 I mean, is this what it's always like?

00:39:02.000 Not a lot of fact checking.

00:39:03.000 We're just trying to rush it out there and say, this is why Tucker was fired.

00:39:06.000 Look, I saw one the other day that Tucker quit because he couldn't air a story about this Ray Epps character.

00:39:13.000 I mean, and this was from somebody that I normally trust, too.

00:39:16.000 But this is the wild thing about this is that when it's compacted like this and you see the kind of how the sausage is made.

00:39:23.000 You're like, man, that's one math problem with 50 different answers.

00:39:28.000 And that's kind of worrying.

00:39:29.000 Well, that's what's I mean, to me, it's like this Daily Beast report is the one saying his the vulgar comments he made about Sidney Powell.

00:39:35.000 Now, the Daily Beast, that's a that's a left leaning publication that has zero sources inside Fox who would be in a position to answer why Rupert made this decision.

00:39:44.000 Right. So that's probably why they wound up with such an absurd theory that it was the Sidney Powell name calling that got him fired.

00:39:53.000 The Wall Street Journal is Rupert's publication and their reasoning.

00:39:56.000 They said it was because the executive saw more Tucker correspondence in the course of the Dominion lawsuit than the rest of us saw that ticked off Rupert and other executives.

00:40:07.000 Well, they've been in possession of that for months, for months and months and months.

00:40:11.000 And, you know, all indications were that they were on their way to renewing Tucker's deal.

00:40:15.000 And I know Tucker had a personal meeting with Rupert Murdoch very short time ago that went well.

00:40:21.000 So, you know what?

00:40:23.000 What changed?

00:40:24.000 He had already been alerted to the negative comments, if any, in that I just don't buy any of these excuses.

00:40:30.000 Something else happened.

00:40:31.000 Something else is going on to explain this termination.

00:40:34.000 And I don't exactly know what it was, but I do want to talk about the absolute meltdown over it in the media.

00:40:41.000 This is a montage that was put together of some of the most extreme reactions.

00:40:45.000 You guys might enjoy watching this.

00:40:47.000 It's top 15. 0.98

00:40:49.000 The worst thing about it is that Tucker, to me, was always a dumb person's idea of what a smart bigot sounded like. 0.90

00:40:56.000 He arguably has done more on cable television to spread the gospel of hate, fear and paranoia than anyone since radio propagandist Father Coughlin in the Nazi era of the 1930s. 0.72

00:41:08.000 And as a result, whomever succeeds Tucker Carlson in Fox's coveted 8 p.m. time slot will be contending with an audience that has grown accustomed to watching the man who curated the most racist show in the history of cable news.

00:41:23.000 This doesn't mean that Fox is going to course correct, are they?

00:41:26.000 Because there's a whole hell of a lot of other people at Fox that need to go also.

00:41:30.000 OK, that's what went ahead.

00:41:35.000 Father Coughlin.

00:41:36.000 Same thing.

00:41:37.000 That's what Rachel Maddow said, too.

00:41:38.000 Yeah.

00:41:39.000 Yeah.

00:41:40.000 Father Coughlin and Rachel Maddow just did a very bad podcast that references Father Coughlin.

00:41:45.000 So I know she knows what she's talking about because Father Coughlin was a radio priest from Michigan who was a raving anti-Semite.

00:41:53.000 I mean, first, he was a big supporter of the New Deal. 0.93

00:41:56.000 And then he quite outspokenly said Jews are controlling the world and they're ruining the world. 0.84

00:42:01.000 If you think there's a parallel between Tucker Carlson and someone who was effectively a like a Nazi, like a real Nazi, saying that the Jews controlled the world. 0.93

00:42:09.000 That is the wildest thing I have ever seen.

00:42:12.000 I mean, this is an expectation from MSNBC.

00:42:15.000 But, Megan, I have a bone to pick with you. 0.90

00:42:18.000 Because when this happened, I said, I have to listen to Megan's show yesterday.

00:42:22.000 So what do I do?

00:42:23.000 Pottering around the house.

00:42:24.000 I listen to your show. 1.00

00:42:25.000 And you do something that no one else does that intrudes upon my life with the fucking view. 1.00

00:42:32.000 I have avoided this thing for so long and I only come across it on your damn show. 0.99

00:42:37.000 And this woman, I don't even know her name, but she starts singing. 0.99

00:42:41.000 Anna Navarro.

00:42:42.000 Hey, goodbye.

00:42:43.000 Yeah, Anna Navarro, who is like one of these conservatives that was a conservative for five minutes so she can be a conservative on the view. 1.00

00:42:50.000 And I thought I was thinking about this and I said, this is the funniest, most deranged thing in the world.

00:42:55.000 It's almost as if, you know, if Steph Curry was going to be traded from the Golden State Awards.

00:43:00.000 People say, oh, he's done.

00:43:01.000 He's out of basketball.

00:43:02.000 No, he's on a different team now.

00:43:03.000 You're not getting rid of him.

00:43:04.000 Three and a half million people watch him and they love him.

00:43:08.000 Do you believe that he's gone?

00:43:10.000 And they're like, and now he won't have any influence.

00:43:12.000 Like, oh, just like Ben Shapiro has no influence and Joe Rogan has no influence whatsoever.

00:43:17.000 Like none.

00:43:18.000 Well, OK, by the way, because I knew you were coming, I baked this cake for you from today's view, Moynihan.

00:43:24.000 Watch and enjoy.

00:43:26.000 I am stunned because I don't, and I hate that people are comparing Tucker's firing with Don's

00:43:33.000 firing.

00:43:34.000 That's all equivalency.

00:43:35.000 And just to put a button on it, Don, yes, said some things that were sexist and I think

00:43:45.000 ageist.

00:43:46.000 He apologized for them and received formal training.

00:43:49.000 He has been on the air for a long time fighting bigotry, whereas Tucker has been fomenting bigotry.

00:43:54.000 Exactly.

00:43:55.000 So there's a big difference there. 0.99

00:43:56.000 And yes, he did say some dumb things. 0.61

00:43:58.000 And apologized, and Tucker never apologized for anything. 0.82

00:44:00.000 But I only know if you're concerned that somebody is a misogynist, why would you put them with two women to do a show?

00:44:11.000 If you feel that way, if you feel that concern.

00:44:16.000 It's CNN's fault.

00:44:18.000 The misogyny is CNN's fault.

00:44:20.000 Good Lord.

00:44:21.000 I mean, listen, whoopies, she was raising a good question because according to Variety, he has a long history of misogyny at CNN.

00:44:29.000 Why did they put him with those two co-hosts? 1.00

00:44:31.000 But she's too stupid to actually figure out, oh, wait a minute. 1.00

00:44:34.000 He actually might have a long history of misogyny. 1.00

00:44:36.000 Go read the reports.

00:44:38.000 And the big difference, by the way, that they were, Sonny was talking about there.

00:44:43.000 Actually, the really big difference is one is very good at his job and the other is very bad at his job.

00:44:49.000 And popular.

00:44:50.000 Yeah, exactly.

00:44:51.000 And it took CNN a really long time to fire the guy who was bad at his job.

00:44:56.000 And Fox News took what seems like a pretty quick opportunity to get rid of the guy who's really good at his job.

00:45:02.000 And I'll let listeners because they're smart enough to distinguish between what might be the difference there.

00:45:07.000 It could have something to do with their politics.

00:45:09.000 But it's just so funny to hear them cheerleading the ouster.

00:45:13.000 And by the way, I we take for granted, like because everyone here knows that, of course, the media repeats these awful things about Tucker Carlson that are not based in fact night after night.

00:45:22.000 Even if you don't like Tucker Carlson, even if you agree with you, don't agree with him to smear him as a racist along the lines of Father Coughlin.

00:45:30.000 I mean, just unbelievable. But they're repeated uncritically on MSNBC and CNN.

00:45:35.000 And it's just no big deal that you're smearing someone baselessly as an act like a virulent anti-Semite racist bigot.

00:45:43.000 And it's just a shrug. And they just take their plaudits for it and move on.

00:45:47.000 I want to get back to him like virtue signal points for it.

00:45:50.000 I want to get back to Father Coughlin one second.

00:45:52.000 But can we just spend one minute, Wayne Hanna?

00:45:55.000 Don Lemon apologized and received formal training.

00:46:00.000 He went to the camp.

00:46:01.000 It's like Maoist China.

00:46:03.000 He's been reeducated in about 48 hours.

00:46:06.000 And now he's fine.

00:46:07.000 Look, the thing about that is, like, that's not the reason you should fire Don Lemon.

00:46:12.000 Don Lemon, honestly, you should fire Don Lemon because he's bad at his job, as Emily said, I agree.

00:46:17.000 And it's reflected in the numbers.

00:46:19.000 I mean, it is a false equivalent.

00:46:21.000 3.5 million to, what, 200,000?

00:46:23.000 Yes.

00:46:24.000 Not the same thing.

00:46:25.000 Literally, under 300,000.

00:46:26.000 That's what his morning show drops.

00:46:28.000 What did he have, the eight o'clock slot?

00:46:30.000 And then he's put into the morning and he can't produce anywhere.

00:46:33.000 If he was producing, I think they'd be a little more forgiving. 1.00

00:46:35.000 But the idea that he said something stupid, like, look, cable news is about saying stupid things. 1.00

00:46:40.000 Many things are stupid. 1.00

00:46:41.000 I mean, media exists for stupid things, right? 1.00

00:46:43.000 Many things are stupid. 1.00

00:46:44.000 We enjoy this. 1.00

00:46:45.000 And Don Lemon has said some really stupid things. 0.99

00:46:47.000 And I was reminded the other day, I was talking to my friend and the friend of the show, too, Camille Foster. 0.99

00:46:52.000 And I said, do you remember when he said that the missing plane was eaten by a black hole?

00:46:57.000 It was like, oh, yeah, yeah, this is maybe guy is not great at his job.

00:47:01.000 And that was the first indication to me.

00:47:03.000 Yeah. 0.99

00:47:04.000 And by the way, to those dumb asses over at The View, he did not apologize. 0.99

00:47:07.000 He sent out a Twitter attempt at an apology. 0.99

00:47:10.000 He never said anything on the air apologizing to Nikki Haley or the millions of women that he did offend with that comment.

00:47:17.000 So maybe you need a little reeducation.

00:47:19.000 And the camp didn't work because we just showed the soundbite of him dismissing his co-anchor, Poppy Harlow, on the air yet again.

00:47:26.000 She was trying to give a nice goodbye to Vivek Ramaswamy.

00:47:29.000 And he she she had to jump in like, no, no, we're moving on. 0.71

00:47:33.000 Goodbye. It's over.

00:47:34.000 He's just unlikable.

00:47:36.000 And eventually CNN got it.

00:47:39.000 I want to give Poppy Harlow an amazing amount of credit because it forced me to watch that clip when he was fired with Vivek.

00:47:47.000 And in the middle of this ridiculous, horrible interview, it's not a good interview.

00:47:52.000 There is a moment where you can see Poppy Harlow picks up her phone and starts texting, which was the best response. 1.00

00:47:59.000 You can actually see that she's just like, this is ridiculous. 0.78

00:48:02.000 I can't even believe I'm on television with these people. 1.00

00:48:04.000 This is ridiculous. 0.98

00:48:05.000 I love that. 0.96

00:48:06.000 But, you know, that's a good example of why I should be fired.

00:48:09.000 It's an absolutely awful interview.

00:48:11.000 Emily said texting Chris Licht.

00:48:13.000 Just just putting the sound on speaker.

00:48:15.000 Don's on one again.

00:48:16.000 Save me, please.

00:48:17.000 Save me, please.

00:48:18.000 Or Chris Cuomo.

00:48:19.000 By the way, by the way, so Don was off the show for like a week and the ratings went up.

00:48:25.000 Now, this is not a way to keep your job.

00:48:27.000 This is true. 1.00

00:48:28.000 You can't both be an ass and have shitty ratings. 0.99

00:48:32.000 And then when you're off, have the ratings go up and think you're going to keep your job. 0.99

00:48:35.000 But his statement yesterday was like, I am stunned.

00:48:37.000 I had no warning.

00:48:38.000 And then we learned today he had plenty of warning.

00:48:40.000 So on the subject of Don Lemon and his co-hosts,

00:48:46.000 they here.

00:48:47.000 Here's a little sample of Poppy and Caitlin.

00:48:50.000 I mean, grinning ear to ear this morning when they made their announcement that Don was no longer with CNN.

00:48:57.000 As you may have heard yesterday, CNN parted ways with anchor Don Lemon in a statement.

00:49:02.000 CNN CEO Chris Licht thanked Don for his contributions over the past 17 years.

00:49:07.000 Of course, Don was a big part of the show over the last six months.

00:49:09.000 He was one of the first anchors on CNN to have me on his show.

00:49:12.000 That's something I'll obviously never forget.

00:49:14.000 I agree with Chris.

00:49:15.000 We wish him the best.

00:49:16.000 Yeah, we certainly do.

00:49:17.000 Don was one of my first friends here at CNN.

00:49:19.000 I'm so thankful to have worked alongside him and for his support for nearly 15 years here.

00:49:24.000 And I wish him all good things ahead.

00:49:26.000 Our priority is you, the viewer.

00:49:28.000 We're grateful you welcome us in your home each morning.

00:49:31.000 Yeah, just you can just tell they're in a good mood there.

00:49:35.000 It's a happy day.

00:49:36.000 Yeah.

00:49:37.000 And there's nobody.

00:49:38.000 I mean, if you read reports in Daily Mail and elsewhere, there's no one shedding any tears that Don has gone.

00:49:42.000 No one.

00:49:43.000 Well, they had also clearly been leaking against Don, both of them, to page six and other tabloids for a very long time.

00:49:49.000 And to your point, Megan, about media just being disgusting, like that is it on a silver platter.

00:49:54.000 That is what you need to know about media.

00:49:55.000 Exactly.

00:49:56.000 And by the way, I think the first person to give Caitlin a job in journalism was Tucker Carlson.

00:50:00.000 Tucker Carlson.

00:50:01.000 Yeah, that's right.

00:50:02.000 And by the way, she, Caitlin Collins, dumped Jay Suarez, her agent at UTA, because he was Don Lemon's agent, too.

00:50:14.000 That happened about six weeks ago, according to The New York Post.

00:50:18.000 And that was a smart move, because when you have an agent who's got loyalty to the person you're worrying with and not to you, which is the suggestion here, you shouldn't stay with that agent.

00:50:29.000 So this was the writing was on the wall for a while here.

00:50:33.000 And, you know, you can tell that there's nobody there at CNN who's shedding any tears about Don's departure.

00:50:40.000 We'll see what he does. I think it's a totally different situation for him.

00:50:44.000 I think Tucker will have a huge career no matter where he decides to go next.

00:50:47.000 It'll probably be independent.

00:50:48.000 And I don't think Don Lemon will at all.

00:50:49.000 I really don't.

00:50:50.000 I think he's going to be like, you know, we talked about Moynihan when you guys were on last week.

00:50:53.000 The Chris Cuomo project podcast and how he alleged he bumped up to some next somebody in his car.

00:51:00.000 Yeah, people jamming it in the streets of Manhattan, just in with their tops down listening to Chris Cuomo.

00:51:07.000 It's such a lie.

00:51:10.000 The weather's getting warm. How fun is this?

00:51:11.000 Was it Andrew Cuomo?

00:51:13.000 Yeah, it was it was it was the lesser known Steve Cuomo.

00:51:18.000 That's going to be Don's future.

00:51:21.000 Yeah.

00:51:22.000 Well, look, look, he doesn't have an audience.

00:51:24.000 He's a guy on TV.

00:51:26.000 That's different. Right.

00:51:27.000 I mean, you know, it reminded me of is it reminded me of another person who had been fired a long time ago at CNN was.

00:51:34.000 And was and now I'm forgetting his name, the man who made the supposedly anti-Semitic Rick Sanchez.

00:51:40.000 Whatever happened to Rick Sanchez?

00:51:41.000 I mean, he was he had a big show that had decent better numbers than Don Lemon had.

00:51:45.000 And he was fired for for, you know, a couple of dodgy comments and never heard from him again.

00:51:50.000 I mean, I think people aren't clamoring for Don Lemon's opinion on things.

00:51:55.000 I mean, he can barely formulate a sentence.

00:51:57.000 You had a clip before of a guy on MSNBC. 1.00

00:52:00.000 And this is like the oldest, most boring thing that one can say is it's a stupid person's idea of a smart person. 1.00

00:52:06.000 That's actually a thing that stupid people now say because it's repeated like this mantra. 0.99

00:52:11.000 But that's actually ridiculously untrue about Tucker. 0.99

00:52:14.000 I mean, I have known Tucker for a long time.

00:52:16.000 I disagree with him on a lot of things these days.

00:52:19.000 We were a lot closer when he was like a fellow at the Cato Institute, referred to himself as a libertarian in an interview with me a long time ago, even tried to hire me at one point.

00:52:26.000 And he's gone much more to the populist right direction.

00:52:29.000 So I disagree with him on a lot of things, a lot of things.

00:52:31.000 But the guy is really whip smart and he's a great writer.

00:52:34.000 And everyone acknowledges this when he used to write for George Magazine, Talk Magazine, Mainstream, The New Republic, incredible stuff.

00:52:42.000 And people don't remember that the most famous thing in George W. Bush's election campaign in 2000 was the Carla Faye Tucker thing.

00:52:49.000 When Carla Faye Tucker, who was on death row in Texas, Bush mocked her. 0.99

00:52:53.000 That came out because of a profile that Tucker Carlson wrote and was a very, very good one.

00:52:58.000 And this guy's really bright. He writes all those monologues and everything himself.

00:53:02.000 Don Lemon in that Vivek interview could barely formulate a sentence. 0.97

00:53:07.000 He was saying, well, you don't talk to a black man like this. 1.00

00:53:10.000 It's like, by the way, Vivek has, you know, pretty dark skin.

00:53:13.000 I guess maybe you're saying a cultural thing. I'm not sure.

00:53:15.000 But that is the level of argument that you get from him.

00:53:18.000 Yeah, that's exactly right.

00:53:19.000 And I love the fact that that that montage ended with Ali Velshi saying, oh, Tucker built the most racist show on television.

00:53:25.000 I will never forget Roger Ailes used to use Ali Velshi as the example of what not to do on television about why I think it was CNN at the time he was there was failing.

00:53:37.000 Like, look at that guy. Look how bad he is.

00:53:40.000 He's such a joke. And here now he's at MSNBC still getting zero ratings just by running around calling everybody a racist, Emily. 0.95

00:53:48.000 And no, that's actually really interesting, because I think what Ali Velshi does is a very bad impression of Don Lemon. 0.94

00:53:53.000 And it seems like he was the Don Lemon model of how to anchor on CNN, which is to be excessively smug, but also excessively ignorant.

00:54:01.000 A wonderful combination that is sure to draw viewers night after night.

00:54:05.000 But it works for this like tiny little audience. And you can see that's all they're able to draw in either at MSNBC or CNN.

00:54:12.000 MSNBC obviously gets a little bit more of it because they're willing to at least be slightly honest sometimes and say they're outright liberal.

00:54:18.000 But it is so it's so unappealing. I can't imagine sitting down at a television set and watching Ali Velshi just condescend to like 90 percent of the country day after day or Don Lemon.

00:54:32.000 And that's the thing that Don Lemon doesn't have anything to take with him because he's not interesting.

00:54:37.000 And he kind of used to be slightly more interesting when he used to talk about race in a way that he thought would get clicks.

00:54:43.000 And if he if Tucker Carlson had said any of the things Don Lemon had said back then, he actually would have been canceled maybe.

00:54:50.000 But it's just like he's completely uninteresting.

00:54:53.000 He has nothing worth listening to to say because he's allowed himself to be beaten into this just useless gray vanilla cable TV blob where you just are like a factory of anti-Trump and anti-Tucker and anti-conservative commentary. 0.93

00:55:10.000 So that that Jason Johnson was in the first part of that clip saying he's like what you were saying when he had he's like a dumb man's vision of what a smart man sounds like what a smart bigot sounds like that condescension. 1.00

00:55:22.000 Like if you like Tucker, you're a dumbass bigot. 1.00

00:55:25.000 You're stupid. 1.00

00:55:26.000 And the only reason you like him is because he shares your dumbass bigotry. 1.00

00:55:29.000 That's what he was saying. 0.98

00:55:31.000 And to parlay on what you said with that comment, Moynihan, what you just said, Emily, about the condescension of Don Lemon, who shares exactly that worldview of Jason Johnson.

00:55:40.000 We pulled just a short montage of some of that some of that piece of Don, which was a massive turnoff.

00:55:46.000 He used to be more reasonable. That's when I knew him back in 2014, 15.

00:55:50.000 And then he went super woke. And I do believe broke is about to follow.

00:55:55.000 Here's a little bit. Twenty seven.

00:55:57.000 The people who ate and abetted Trump are stupid. 1.00

00:56:00.000 They've lived in several red states. 1.00

00:56:02.000 There are a lot of friends who I had to really get rid of taking down the statues and crime is rising as they defund police.

00:56:08.000 Oh, my gosh, it's so bad.

00:56:10.000 You voted for Trump.

00:56:11.000 You voted for the person who the Klan supported.

00:56:15.000 You voted for the person who Nazis support. 0.58

00:56:19.000 If you're not going to get vaccinated, you don't want to social distance.

00:56:22.000 You don't want to wear a mask.

00:56:23.000 Then maybe you don't want to go to the hospital when you get sick. 0.98

00:56:26.000 We have to stop demonizing people and realize the biggest terror threat in this country is white men. 0.66

00:56:34.000 We have to stop coddling people when it comes to this and the vaccine saying, oh, you can't shame them. 1.00

00:56:40.000 You can't call them stupid. You can't call them silly. 1.00

00:56:43.000 Yes, they are. 0.98

00:56:44.000 The people who are not getting vaccines, who are believing the lies on the Internet instead of science.

00:56:50.000 It's time to start shaming them. What else? Or leave them behind.

00:56:54.000 Weirdly, Emily, his transition to morning TV didn't really work.

00:56:58.000 They weren't able to forget all that in the new more Republican leaning CNNs.

00:57:02.000 Weirdly, they had a memory. 0.97

00:57:04.000 Just imagine waking up in the morning and drinking your coffee, sipping your coffee and just being told the entire country is full of racist bigots.

00:57:12.000 Like that's nothing invigorates you for a hard day at the office, quite like being implicated in widespread racism and bigotry.

00:57:19.000 And with him, it's like I can't even believe some of that stuff is real because, again, it's so it's such bad journalism that in another era it would have stopped right away.

00:57:30.000 I mean, people acting like that would have stopped right away.

00:57:32.000 But it was rewarded time and time and time and again at CNN because they just looked past all of it.

00:57:39.000 And his I mean, with Chris Licht, obviously, I think it's interesting.

00:57:42.000 He hired what Zucker's ex mistress immediately to do PR for him, Don Lemon.

00:57:47.000 Don did. Don Lemon did.

00:57:48.000 Yeah. And it's it's so interesting because it shows that he was very much in the Zucker brand, the Zucker mold.

00:57:54.000 And when that was when the time was up on the Zucker mold, the time was up on Don.

00:57:58.000 You're so right.

00:57:59.000 It took a little bit longer.

00:58:00.000 But no, that's a great point. All those clips were during the Jeff Zucker era.

00:58:04.000 That was primetime Don Lemon who failed as well.

00:58:07.000 That was a disaster of a show.

00:58:08.000 And that's why he was so upset when Jeff Zucker got fired. 0.97

00:58:11.000 That's when he went on the air and reminded everybody I'm a black gay man, black gay man. 0.99

00:58:15.000 Just in case you forgot who's sitting in this slot, black gay. 1.00

00:58:18.000 Thanks to Jeff Zucker. 0.99

00:58:19.000 He's the one who put me here.

00:58:21.000 Hint, hint, Chris Licht.

00:58:22.000 And Chris Licht came in and is trying to change CNN.

00:58:25.000 And I don't think it's going to work, but good for him for at least trying.

00:58:28.000 And he's dealt with this.

00:58:30.000 He's got to deal with this, this hangover, right, of like all these nightmare comments and so on,

00:58:35.000 and decides to move him out of primetime.

00:58:37.000 Yes.

00:58:38.000 But out the door should have been the next stop.

00:58:40.000 And instead, he moved him to the mornings, which, of course, was a disaster waiting to happen.

00:58:44.000 It didn't work.

00:58:45.000 The co-hosts hate him, according to the post and all the all the stuff.

00:58:48.000 And now, Moynihan, what we get the Daily Beast, I mocked their reporting on Fox saying it was about Sidney Powell.

00:58:53.000 But they are of the left.

00:58:54.000 And I'll bet you they have they have some good sources at CNN.

00:58:56.000 And this is what they report on Lemon.

00:58:58.000 Lemon.

00:58:59.000 His fate had been sealed for weeks, people with knowledge of the matter told us, because remember, he claimed in his statement yesterday I was blindsided.

00:59:06.000 I had no idea this was coming.

00:59:08.000 His fate had been sealed for weeks and he was keenly aware of his coming exit, calling around over the last week for a crisis communications specialist to help out.

00:59:19.000 He ultimately decided, as Emily just pointed out, on Alison Gallist, who previously ran comms for CNN and resigned from the network two weeks after former CEO Jeff Zucker was fired for not disclosing his relationship with her.

00:59:31.000 Well, I mean, come on, Alison Gallist was also forced out of CNN after she'd been humiliated. 1.00

00:59:36.000 She'd been promoted up the line of PR over other deserving women at a time when she was screwing the boss. 1.00

00:59:42.000 So, yeah, that can lead to problems if you stay in your post and then try to run comms.

00:59:47.000 That's who he hired.

00:59:48.000 So he knew it was coming.

00:59:50.000 His feigned indignation yesterday was an act.

00:59:52.000 And CNN has already said we wanted to talk to you directly.

00:59:55.000 We would have let you say goodbye, say goodbye in the air.

00:59:58.000 Instead, you threw a hissy fit with your little Twitter statement like, I can't believe this.

01:00:03.000 Yeah.

01:00:04.000 Do you know who else knew it was coming?

01:00:06.000 Anyone who read the New York Post.

01:00:09.000 It was like, has he not been fired yet?

01:00:12.000 I can't believe he hasn't been fired yet.

01:00:13.000 I love, by the way, that montage because it has one of the greatest, you know, three second clips where he says we really have to stop the demon demonization in this country.

01:00:25.000 You know, the problem is white people. 0.98

01:00:28.000 Did he actually just say it like that? 0.98

01:00:30.000 Is he that unaware of what he just said?

01:00:33.000 It's like that person probably probably shouldn't be on TV.

01:00:36.000 But like Chris Licht.

01:00:37.000 Like, look, I actually appreciate the fact that he's I mean, I don't think he's been successful at it so far, obviously, because you don't put Don Lemon from a failing show at eight o'clock into the morning show.

01:00:46.000 I mean, like if you have bad players in the team, you don't shuffle them to different positions.

01:00:50.000 You trade them.

01:00:51.000 You get new players.

01:00:52.000 And I think that's probably what they need to do at this point.

01:00:54.000 But, you know, like I appreciate the idea of trying to make CNN kind of trend a middle path, because in the past, when I was in a hotel room and that's essentially like you make is the only time I watch cable news.

01:01:07.000 I would turn on CNN because I just, you know, was, you know, my job is to be a jerk about politics and I want to hear someone talk about it, you know, down the center.

01:01:17.000 I would turn on CNN. 0.98

01:01:18.000 But look, there's after Donald Trump, there's diminishing returns of that kind of constantly beating the drum about how psychotic his supporters are, how psychotic he is, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

01:01:30.000 I think the reason that people like someone like Joe Rogan is that it's contemplative.

01:01:35.000 It's long.

01:01:36.000 We were told a long time ago, like when you're doing a podcast, make it quick.

01:01:40.000 People have very short attention spans in the internet there.

01:01:42.000 And it turns out people like three hours of Joe Rogan because he has interesting people on.

01:01:46.000 He asked very probing, searching questions.

01:01:48.000 He's willing to be wrong about things.

01:01:50.000 You see a guy with Don Lemon. 1.00

01:01:51.000 He is so sure about himself in such a clumsy, dumb way. 0.99

01:01:55.000 That's like off putting to a lot of people. 0.99

01:01:57.000 Partisans love it, I guess.

01:01:59.000 But that's not the recipe for like a successful TV show.

01:02:02.000 I don't think it's so true.

01:02:03.000 And what is it like often wrong?

01:02:04.000 Never in doubt.

01:02:05.000 And Tucker is the opposite.

01:02:08.000 I would say sometimes wrong, always in doubt.

01:02:11.000 Tucker is so self-deprecating when he talks about himself and the many things he's gotten

01:02:15.000 wrong and the many times he's learned from his mistakes.

01:02:18.000 You fall in love with the guy.

01:02:19.000 I mean, you see he is not what the media tells you he is.

01:02:23.000 And yet back to Father Coughlin, look, listen to Rachel Maddow.

01:02:29.000 She's lost her mind. 0.92

01:02:31.000 Somehow she managed to rope in Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Glenn Beck.

01:02:37.000 And Tucker into this montage.

01:02:41.000 You'll see it.

01:02:42.000 Watch.

01:02:43.000 Something like a quarter of the entire population of the United States was listening to him on

01:02:49.000 the radio every week.

01:02:52.000 Until they weren't.

01:02:53.000 His name was Father Charles Coughlin.

01:02:55.000 When he started explicitly telling his followers, I choose the road of fascism.

01:03:02.000 That was awkward for his bosses at the church.

01:03:04.000 The next closest sort of one shadow of that guy's influence was this guy who in the late

01:03:12.000 1980s started an AM radio career.

01:03:15.000 At his height, he really seemed like his potential was limitless.

01:03:18.000 Until it didn't.

01:03:19.000 Then after him, there was this guy who also built a fast-growing audience.

01:03:24.000 But at the Fox News Channel, he was their fastest-growing star, which they must have been very happy

01:03:28.000 with at Fox News until they weren't.

01:03:32.000 Then it was this guy.

01:03:33.000 This guy actually was the biggest host that Fox ever had.

01:03:36.000 He was the most dominant voice in right-wing television ever.

01:03:41.000 Until he wasn't.

01:03:42.000 Now there's this guy.

01:03:44.000 Their latest, biggest thing.

01:03:47.000 And he's out today as well.

01:03:50.000 He's been fired.

01:03:51.000 Over time, whoever the dominant figure is gets smaller and smaller and smaller over time.

01:03:57.000 Dominance inside conservative media doesn't tend to cross over into any other kind of

01:04:03.000 major influence.

01:04:06.000 Ugh.

01:04:07.000 God.

01:04:08.000 Right?

01:04:09.000 Oh, now, why is that, Rachel?

01:04:11.000 Because you lefties control the media and you control Hollywood and you control sports

01:04:18.000 and you're trying to take over corporate America.

01:04:20.000 But when voters go to the polls, the country's 50-50.

01:04:25.000 So you can dismiss conservatives in this country as powerless all you want.

01:04:31.000 But there's a reason they took back the House.

01:04:34.000 And there's a reason they could very well take back the Senate and possibly the White House

01:04:38.000 next time around.

01:04:39.000 And your people will not always be in control.

01:04:41.000 And by the way, you stepped down from your show.

01:04:44.000 You can only do a show on Monday nights now and are far less powerful with your voice

01:04:47.000 than you ever were before, too.

01:04:49.000 Just the smug, disgusting satisfaction and to compare those conservative giants, Emily, 1.00

01:04:55.000 to Father Coughlin is absolutely disgusting. 1.00

01:04:58.000 She's shameful. 0.99

01:04:59.000 I was surprised she didn't hit for the cycle and bring Hitler in, too, actually, because 0.98

01:05:04.000 it seems like that's where she was going with it.

01:05:06.000 And again, like this stuff gets repeated on primetime MSNBC.

01:05:09.000 Nobody has to apologize.

01:05:10.000 And of course, Tucker was subject to how many boycott attempts by really well funded,

01:05:15.000 well coordinated left wing groups that pulled advertisers were successful at pulling advertisers

01:05:20.000 off the air.

01:05:21.000 People are not doing that to Rachel Maddow.

01:05:23.000 And if they did, it wouldn't be covered positively in corporate press like it was every time someone

01:05:27.000 came after Tucker.

01:05:28.000 And by the way, Tucker and Rachel Maddow previously used to have pretty nice things to say about each

01:05:33.000 other.

01:05:34.000 They were both at MSNBC at the same time.

01:05:35.000 He gave her her start.

01:05:36.000 I think he gave her her first on air appearance.

01:05:39.000 And what's interesting about that is it's such a sad case study in the arc of American media,

01:05:45.000 because Rachel Maddow, like Tucker, used to be very thoughtful, contemplative.

01:05:49.000 The word Michael uses perfect because also, Megan, you mentioned how he's self-deprecating.

01:05:53.000 He actually was always self-deprecating.

01:05:55.000 He was just at the Heritage Foundation on Friday night talking about how he completely changed

01:05:59.000 his views on a lot of things when he realized that he was wrong.

01:06:02.000 And he did that on a show night after night.

01:06:04.000 Rachel Maddow still hasn't said a word about what she got wrong during the Russia collusion

01:06:08.000 hoax that I'm aware of in really serious contemplative fashion.

01:06:11.000 And so you used to have way more thoughtful, good faith interactions in American media.

01:06:17.000 You used to have Buckley, William F. Buckley, bringing Gore Vidal on, hosting debates between,

01:06:22.000 you know, Phyllis Schlafly and Betty Friedan or whoever it was. 0.94

01:06:25.000 And that used to be a fixture of American media.

01:06:28.000 We used to really appreciate that.

01:06:29.000 But now you can never envision Tucker Carlson and Rachel Maddow sitting down,

01:06:34.000 hashing out these conversations.

01:06:35.000 Why?

01:06:36.000 Well, it's not the fault of Tucker Carlson.

01:06:37.000 It's the fault of Rachel Maddow and everyone who controls these corporate media networks, 0.91

01:06:41.000 believing that Tucker Carlson is a racist, saying that he had the most racist show ever on American television,

01:06:47.000 repeating that uncritically in all of these platforms.

01:06:50.000 New York Times, NBC doesn't matter.

01:06:53.000 And that's the problem is fundamentally they are the roadblock to that healthier media

01:06:58.000 and they're trying to profit off of it and it's not working.

01:07:00.000 Yes, it's so well said.

01:07:02.000 I just like the amount of hatred by people on like the hard left is coming out right now. 0.75

01:07:10.000 And it's absolutely disgusting.

01:07:11.000 You've got to go, you know, to the Father Coghlan place in the wake of Tucker being fired.

01:07:16.000 Like that's that's where you want to go.

01:07:18.000 Even Keith Olbermann was saying similar things, comparing Tucker to a Nazi.

01:07:23.000 He also, for good measure, decided to tweet about me because I said Tucker is going to be better off without Fox

01:07:29.000 and said something to the effect of you got fired from Fox and NBC.

01:07:33.000 What would you know about it?

01:07:34.000 So, first of all, you misstate the circumstances of my departure from NBC, sir.

01:07:37.000 That's all I'm allowed to say about it.

01:07:39.000 And as for Fox, there were widely reported facts that I was offered 100 million dollars to stay there.

01:07:45.000 But the record is very clear that I left voluntarily because I wanted to raise my family.

01:07:50.000 Something you don't know anything about because no one would marry you and you have no children. 0.84

01:07:54.000 You have a cold, lonely life in which you become a bitter, bitter man.

01:07:58.000 Something I wouldn't know anything about because my life is joyful and I've managed to raise my own children.

01:08:02.000 And someday I hope you have that pleasure.

01:08:05.000 But I don't have high hopes it's going to happen.

01:08:07.000 But Moynihan, does he have a job?

01:08:09.000 No, he's got a podcast.

01:08:11.000 What he does have is a podcast that nobody's listening to that we crush.

01:08:16.000 So in any event, the but the bitterness.

01:08:19.000 And that brings me to Joy Reid, who is equally angry.

01:08:22.000 She's got to be the next to go. 1.00

01:08:24.000 I mean, we'll see.

01:08:25.000 But here was her messaging on Tucker's fall.

01:08:28.000 No grand send off for Tuckums. 1.00

01:08:31.000 No final show for him to sign off with his viewers.

01:08:34.000 It's almost hard to believe that just months ago, Tucker wielded so much power.

01:08:40.000 Kevin McCarthy traded him 40,000 hours of exclusive January six footage in his hostage deal to become speaker.

01:08:49.000 Yet today, Tucker has officially achieved something that I don't think anyone else in our industry can claim.

01:08:56.000 Being let go by all three major cable news networks, MSNBC.

01:09:01.000 Yes, he used to work here.

01:09:02.000 He arguably has done more on cable television to spread the gospel of hate, fear and paranoia than anyone since radio propagandist Father Coughlin in the Nazi era of the 1930s. 0.96

01:09:15.000 Doesn't she hate gays? 0.99

01:09:18.000 Isn't that the person who had a whole blog? 0.98

01:09:20.000 No, no, no, no.

01:09:21.000 Megan, I'm not going to let you spread misinformation about an account that was brutally hacked.

01:09:26.000 We still haven't found the perpetrator.

01:09:28.000 OJ is looking for the hacker. 0.97

01:09:30.000 But yeah, she was hacked to say that she didn't like gay people.

01:09:34.000 Like, look, actually, Joy Reid, I think I had done a radio thing with her on Sirius, you know, maybe eight years ago.

01:09:41.000 And she was a very different person.

01:09:42.000 I mean, she was a person of the left.

01:09:44.000 But this cartoonish thing, it was quite funny.

01:09:47.000 They accused Tucker of this.

01:09:49.000 And, you know, I again have to reiterate when what Emily was saying, you know, Tucker and Heritage said he changed his mind when he realized he was wrong.

01:09:57.000 I think the things that he says he was wrong, but he was actually right before.

01:10:00.000 He's probably wrong about now.

01:10:01.000 But the thing I like about Tucker is that, you know, I can have that debate with him.

01:10:06.000 I'm sure if I ran into him, we could have a spirited discussion about it.

01:10:10.000 Enjoy that echo chamber of Joy Reid's show.

01:10:13.000 And on MSNBC, I'll give you an example of this.

01:10:16.000 I saw an episode of Tucker's show that made my veins pop.

01:10:19.000 I was so annoyed by it.

01:10:20.000 But he had a guest on, and they were talking about American foreign policy.

01:10:24.000 And look, it sounded like Noam Chomsky on Fox News.

01:10:27.000 But you know what?

01:10:28.000 I was actually happy about it.

01:10:30.000 I'm like, oh, we'll talk about it on the fifth call, and I'm glad that this is being aired.

01:10:33.000 I'm not somebody who wants views to be, you know, suppressed, and they say, oh, no, no, no, Tucker's gone.

01:10:40.000 The ideas aren't going anywhere.

01:10:42.000 You have to win on the battlefield of ideas rather than saying, well, he's gotten fired.

01:10:46.000 It's all over.

01:10:47.000 Where did those 3.5 million people go?

01:10:49.000 And by the way, that montage of people saying, oh, you know, he's done.

01:10:53.000 These people disappear.

01:10:55.000 Well, that's partially true in the sense that, you know, a band that was popular in 1980 and playing stadiums is probably playing clubs now.

01:11:03.000 And that does happen, but not now.

01:11:07.000 I mean, you think that if Tucker is going to take this audience and leave it, he's going to have more people.

01:11:12.000 I saw this article in the San Francisco Chronicle this morning, like, oh, he's all done.

01:11:15.000 He had this huge audience.

01:11:16.000 And look, they just, you know, axed him.

01:11:19.000 Good luck, Tucker.

01:11:20.000 Bye.

01:11:21.000 Same thing.

01:11:22.000 You don't think that he could parlay that like Ben Shapiro into a much bigger audience.

01:11:27.000 You can do this stuff on demand.

01:11:28.000 Huge.

01:11:29.000 You don't have to watch it at 8 o'clock.

01:11:30.000 You don't have to TiVo it or whatever the hell people do now.

01:11:32.000 You can just call it up.

01:11:33.000 He's going to have like, you know, he's got three offers.

01:11:36.000 What, you know, Ben Shapiro's made one.

01:11:38.000 Glenn Beck has made one.

01:11:39.000 All these these conservative networks.

01:11:41.000 Newsmax.

01:11:42.000 Chris Reddy made him one.

01:11:43.000 He's not going to be without a home.

01:11:45.000 And he's going to have a big audience because someone like Tucker, as I said before, in comparison

01:11:50.000 to Don Lemon, they have an audience that follows them because they're following Tucker.

01:11:55.000 Look, the thing is, Tucker will probably have fewer people over the age of 65 watching him.

01:12:02.000 That's true.

01:12:03.000 Sure.

01:12:04.000 The digital world is much younger than the cable news world.

01:12:06.000 But he will have huge numbers just like I do, just like you guys do.

01:12:11.000 Millions of people watch this show every week.

01:12:14.000 Millions of people.

01:12:15.000 And that that's power.

01:12:17.000 And while Rachel Maddow may not be watching the show or the fifth column or the Federalist,

01:12:22.000 millions of other people are taking in these products voraciously because they're looking

01:12:27.000 for alternate voices to the ones they hear like hers on MSNBC.

01:12:31.000 And frankly, like the things they've they're hearing on Fox News that they've been hearing

01:12:36.000 forever.

01:12:37.000 The thing that made Tucker special was he was different.

01:12:39.000 Now they're back to the same.

01:12:41.000 You know, it's I like a lot of these guys.

01:12:43.000 I'm just saying it's a it's an old formula.

01:12:45.000 It's not the way of the future.

01:12:47.000 And so just because Rachel Maddow doesn't hear Glenn Beck and Bill O'Reilly doesn't mean

01:12:52.000 they don't still hold enormous influence, especially Glenn, who's got a whole media empire that

01:12:57.000 he built.

01:12:58.000 It's just shows their little liberal elite circles, Emily, that they never leave, that

01:13:03.000 they think these people have just washed up and gone away.

01:13:05.000 All right.

01:13:06.000 Like, OK, sure.

01:13:07.000 Yeah.

01:13:08.000 Don Lemon, by the way, that montage, he sounds like someone who's never met an actual Trump

01:13:12.000 supporter in the wild that isn't like a CNN person who he's having on a show to dunk

01:13:17.000 on.

01:13:18.000 I think that's an important point.

01:13:19.000 And also this idea, this argument that Fox News is tantamount to mind control.

01:13:24.000 Right.

01:13:25.000 Like it has manipulated millions of boomers into pulling the lover for Trump and becoming

01:13:29.000 racist populists is like completely wrong and also completely insulting.

01:13:34.000 It also tells you what they think of their own audience, by the way, that they are just

01:13:38.000 manipulating your feeble minds with their propaganda, that that's what television is.

01:13:43.000 It's where you do mind control and it's just like clockwork orange. 1.00

01:13:46.000 You can change the entire country and turn them all into like completely stupid sheep with 1.00

01:13:52.000 your propaganda on TV. 1.00

01:13:53.000 That's not to say it isn't powerful.

01:13:55.000 But if anything, Tucker was following the audience.

01:13:58.000 He learned like a lot of people did and like a lot of people didn't in 2016 that there was

01:14:02.000 some stuff going on between the coasts and that people had different ideas, for instance,

01:14:07.000 about American foreign policy than the neoconservatism.

01:14:09.000 The Republican Party wouldn't breathe a word against and you would rarely hear disagreement

01:14:14.000 with on a place like even Fox News primetime, you know, Bill Riley, Sean Hannity.

01:14:19.000 And he picked up on that and learned from it.

01:14:22.000 And so it's if anything, he's the one that was following the audience.

01:14:25.000 So you can bet a whole lot of people will follow him in ways that they're not going

01:14:29.000 to follow Don Lemon or that they wouldn't follow Rachel Maddow.

01:14:32.000 So last question.

01:14:33.000 What does this mean for Fox?

01:14:35.000 You know, they've weathered storms in the past.

01:14:38.000 Tucker is a unique talent and the audience is mad.

01:14:41.000 So what do you think, Moynihan?

01:14:43.000 What does this mean for Fox?

01:14:44.000 I mean, it can't mean anything good in the short run.

01:14:48.000 And they haven't been great and talent developments.

01:14:52.000 I mean, they've had a lot of the people that have been there for a long time.

01:14:55.000 And some of them are great.

01:14:57.000 I mean, like my friend, Greg Gutfeld, who, you know, I think Roger saw this actually had

01:15:02.000 a show called Red Eye that was on at 3am.

01:15:04.000 And at that point, by the way, at 3am, he was beating CNN.

01:15:07.000 And then I think the nine o'clock and eight o'clock spots at 3am.

01:15:10.000 And I used to do a show all the time.

01:15:11.000 And Greg was obviously a talent.

01:15:13.000 And now his show, which is what, 11 o'clock or something like that,

01:15:17.000 is beating all the late night comedy shows because it's not,

01:15:20.000 it doesn't feel like you're being lectured to in school and it's a little looser.

01:15:23.000 But, you know, if they, if they could manage to kind of get somebody else like Greg,

01:15:27.000 I mean, I know some people have suggested Greg move over,

01:15:29.000 but that show is way too successful for them to throw it out the window

01:15:33.000 and have him try to inhabit that eight o'clock spot.

01:15:36.000 And I know that Roger really liked him, but I think there's a lot of, you know,

01:15:39.000 young people out there.

01:15:40.000 I would say if they want to kind of, you know, be back in the game in a way,

01:15:45.000 and I think they're going to be out of the game for a little bit with this,

01:15:47.000 because Tucker was their biggest, biggest property.

01:15:49.000 I mean, the five being the second one.

01:15:51.000 I think you look outside to where the other people are,

01:15:54.000 where the kind of internet people are and say,

01:15:56.000 who are the great talents here?

01:15:57.000 And maybe try to just, you know, call someone up from the minors

01:16:00.000 and just give them a spot on the, in the big show.

01:16:03.000 Like, you know, NBC did with Conan O'Brien in like 1992.

01:16:06.000 That was what I would do if I were Fox at this point,

01:16:09.000 not sort of recycle somebody from inside.

01:16:12.000 What they're up against is they don't have Roger anymore,

01:16:15.000 who is a great talent scout and a great talent developer.

01:16:17.000 And he, I said this yesterday, but he told me that Gutfeld was the only one

01:16:21.000 he could put in for O'Reilly when O'Reilly's out and get a number.

01:16:24.000 But now you're not going to pluck him from his show and turn him into the new O'Reilly,

01:16:29.000 the new Tucker and his solo position.

01:16:31.000 That would be a waste.

01:16:32.000 They might try some harebrained scheme of moving his 11 o'clock show to eight.

01:16:36.000 Remember when I left the nine, remember for the, for the short term,

01:16:39.000 they moved the five to 9 PM.

01:16:41.000 That was their first move and it didn't work because it's weird.

01:16:45.000 It's, it's weird.

01:16:46.000 Yeah.

01:16:47.000 So they got smart and they moved it back to five.

01:16:49.000 That was when they had that show with like Eric Bolling and other people on at five,

01:16:53.000 the independence.

01:16:54.000 I can't remember what it was anyway.

01:16:56.000 Then they got rid of that show.

01:16:57.000 They moved the five back to five and Tucker went to nine and then O'Reilly got fired

01:17:02.000 and they moved Tucker to eight.

01:17:04.000 Um, so I don't know, like their history.

01:17:07.000 Isn't so great at being able to figure out, Oh, there's a slot.

01:17:10.000 This is exactly how we should fill it.

01:17:12.000 I don't think the answer if they care or anybody cares what I think is moving

01:17:15.000 Gutfeld's current show to AP though.

01:17:18.000 I do think if they hadn't launched that evening show, he would have been the next best choice.

01:17:22.000 He would have been a great choice to put in that slot.

01:17:24.000 Now.

01:17:25.000 I don't know what they're going to do because they don't know how to develop talent.

01:17:27.000 Emily.

01:17:28.000 I'll give you the last word on it.

01:17:29.000 Yeah.

01:17:30.000 I think, uh, you know, this, these are all holdovers from the Ailes era and in the post

01:17:34.000 Ailes era, um, it's, you know, a real struggle, I think for Fox news.

01:17:38.000 And I also to, to find someone that's actually capable of holding that hour.

01:17:42.000 And I think one of the biggest situations here is like, if this is indicative of a pattern

01:17:46.000 at Fox news of them for legal reasons, whatever clamping down on populist voices that make people

01:17:52.000 in the C-suite uncomfortable, then they're in a really difficult, then they're actually in,

01:17:57.000 I think business trouble.

01:17:58.000 And you sensed how deep they thought the business trouble was just in the there.

01:18:02.000 They were worried about competition from Newsmax and one America after that Arizona call.

01:18:07.000 I mean, it was strange to see how panicked they were about that stuff.

01:18:10.000 So if this is indicative of a pattern that continues, I think they're in real trouble.

01:18:14.000 If they find someone Tucker-esque, um, they might not be able to put up the same numbers,

01:18:18.000 but it will show that they have a commitment to giving voice to, to sort of populists and

01:18:22.000 real conservatives around the country and can still continue down the same path.

01:18:26.000 Um, but if they're, if they're not committed to that, I think they're in serious business trouble.

01:18:30.000 It's, it's one of those things like I learned from 17 years at Fox.

01:18:35.000 Yes.

01:18:36.000 The relationship between the host and the audience is important.

01:18:38.000 And they did a good job back in that era, at least a picking people who would resonate

01:18:41.000 with the Fox news audience.

01:18:43.000 But one of the things that makes you watch Fox news, you may not even know it is the flashy

01:18:48.000 graphics, the pace of the programming, the story selection, you know, the content you're

01:18:53.000 getting and the reporters who will come on and update you on, you know, what they've been

01:18:58.000 out covering.

01:18:59.000 All of that is part of the Fox news machine and it explains a lot of the success and it

01:19:03.000 will still be there.

01:19:04.000 It'll still be there at eight o'clock too.

01:19:06.000 So I think the smart bet would be on Fox news.

01:19:09.000 Um, they've done it before.

01:19:11.000 They could do it again.

01:19:12.000 The audience is loyal.

01:19:13.000 They don't know why they love Fox and find it so compelling, but they do.

01:19:16.000 Um, but I think for sure, short, short term, probably the audience is going to make

01:19:21.000 them suffer, uh, and try to send them a message.

01:19:23.000 Not quite Bud Light ask, but some sort of message.

01:19:26.000 Uh, guys, thank you so much for coming on.

01:19:28.000 Great to see Emily.

01:19:29.000 You too, Michael.

01:19:33.000 Joining me now, author of the brand new book, Capitalist Punishment.

01:19:37.000 How Wall Street is using your money to create a country you didn't vote for.

01:19:41.000 Vivek Ramaswamy.

01:19:42.000 He's also a 2024 GOP presidential candidate.

01:19:45.000 Vivek, great to have you back.

01:19:47.000 Welcome back to the show.

01:19:48.000 It's good to be on Megan.

01:19:49.000 How are you?

01:19:50.000 Good.

01:19:51.000 We almost covered this exchange last week because it was so contentious and unpleasant,

01:19:56.000 but in the end, we have had enough of down lemon.

01:20:00.000 And so has CNN apparently.

01:20:02.000 Um, so you went on CNN because you've said very openly, you'll go on anywhere.

01:20:07.000 You're running for president.

01:20:08.000 You'll talk to anybody.

01:20:09.000 And it didn't go particularly well.

01:20:11.000 Here's a little bit about you challenge of Don challenging you on your appearance at

01:20:17.000 the way.

01:20:18.000 And Don Lemon takes issue with your opinions on this issue because you're not a black man.

01:20:24.000 You said something about American history and race. 0.97

01:20:27.000 And I guess you're not allowed to opine on that unless you have black skin. 0.98

01:20:30.000 According to Don Lemon, here was a bit of that. 0.55

01:20:32.000 You're telling of history is wrong.

01:20:35.000 What part of the history was wrong?

01:20:37.000 What part of the history was wrong?

01:20:38.000 The Civil War was fought.

01:20:39.000 You're making people think that the Civil War was fought for black people, only for black

01:20:42.000 people to get guns and for black people to have rights. 0.91

01:20:44.000 The Civil War was fought for black people in this country to get freedoms.

01:20:47.000 A noble mission.

01:20:48.000 Black people secured their freedoms after the Civil War.

01:20:51.000 It is a historical fact, Don.

01:20:53.000 Just study it.

01:20:54.000 Only after their Second Amendment rights were secured.

01:20:56.000 You are discounting the reconstruction.

01:20:58.000 You're discounting a whole host of things that happened after the Civil War when it comes

01:21:02.000 to African-Americans, including the whole reason that the civil rights movement happened.

01:21:06.000 It's because black people did not secure their freedoms after the Civil War.

01:21:09.000 And that things turned around.

01:21:11.000 People tried to change the freedoms that were supposed to happen after the Civil War.

01:21:14.000 And you know how they got it?

01:21:15.000 They got their Second Amendment rights and they actually got the NRA played a big role

01:21:18.000 in that.

01:21:19.000 But today, Don, the NRA did not play a big role in that.

01:21:21.000 That is a lie.

01:21:22.000 That's a lie.

01:21:23.000 That's not.

01:21:24.000 The NRA did not play a big role in that.

01:21:25.000 This is just historical fact.

01:21:26.000 It's not historical fact.

01:21:27.000 We didn't even include the best part where he basically says, you know, he's he basically

01:21:32.000 suggests he has a higher claim to the argument because of skin color and went on to diminish

01:21:39.000 you.

01:21:40.000 I don't know what kind of race you are. 0.99

01:21:41.000 What you're back.

01:21:42.000 I mean, it was actually really offensive the way he ended that interview with you.

01:21:46.000 And then his colleague came on.

01:21:49.000 Actually, we have this cut to his colleague came on to try to give you a nice goodbye.

01:21:53.000 And that upset him, too.

01:21:54.000 Here's more.

01:21:55.000 The part that I find insulting is when you say today black Americans don't have those

01:21:59.000 rights after we have gone through civil rights revolution.

01:22:02.000 You are sitting here telling an African American about the rights and what you find insulting

01:22:06.000 about the way I live, the skin I live in every day.

01:22:09.000 Here's where you and I have a different point of view.

01:22:11.000 And I know the freedoms that black and white, that black people don't have in this country. 1.00

01:22:14.000 And that black people do have. 0.90

01:22:15.000 Well, here's where you and I have a different point of view.

01:22:17.000 I think we should be able to express our views regardless of the color of our skin.

01:22:20.000 We should have this debate without me regarding you as a black man, but me regarding you as

01:22:24.000 a fellow citizen.

01:22:25.000 That's what I think we should say.

01:22:26.000 That you're sitting here, whatever ethnicity you are, explaining to me about what it's

01:22:30.000 like to be black in America.

01:22:31.000 Whatever ethnicity I am, I'll tell you what I am.

01:22:33.000 I'm an Indian American.

01:22:34.000 I'm proud of it.

01:22:35.000 But I think we should have this debate.

01:22:36.000 Black, white doesn't matter on the content of the ideas. 0.52

01:22:38.000 You should do it in an honest way and in a fair way.

01:22:41.000 And what you're doing is not an honest and fair way.

01:22:43.000 We appreciate you coming on.

01:22:45.000 With due respect, Don, I look forward to continuing that conversation.

01:22:47.000 We'll continue the conversation.

01:22:48.000 Thank you so much.

01:22:49.000 Thank you.

01:22:50.000 That you are explaining what it's like to be black in America.

01:22:55.000 That's not what happened.

01:22:56.000 You were not trying to speak on behalf of black people.

01:22:59.000 You were talking about America's history.

01:23:01.000 And the reason I go through that exercise, Vivek, is they are there are several reports out today

01:23:07.000 that that was the last straw for CNN management.

01:23:10.000 If you watch the longer clip go on, you will see Poppy Harlow trying to give you a nice goodbye, 1.00

01:23:16.000 saying we'll talk about China the next time you come on.

01:23:18.000 We'll get more into depth on your policies.

01:23:20.000 And Don Lemon clearly wanted to move right on saying goodbye.

01:23:24.000 It's it's over.

01:23:25.000 You know, move on.

01:23:26.000 So what do you make of the fact that you may have had a role in CNN's ultimate decision to get rid of him?

01:23:32.000 I think I did.

01:23:34.000 And I think that that's a net positive.

01:23:36.000 Look, I actually want to be really clear about this.

01:23:39.000 It all comes down to what the mission of your organization is.

01:23:42.000 If CNN's mission is to advance a woke progressive orthodoxy,

01:23:46.000 Don Lemon is a perfectly fine host to have on air to cut off guests,

01:23:50.000 to tell people they can't speak based on the color of their skin,

01:23:53.000 because that does represent a worldview that exists in the country.

01:23:56.000 So if that's aligned with your mission as an organization,

01:23:59.000 that's a perfectly sensible decision to keep that person.

01:24:01.000 But what Chris Lick, the new CEO of CNN, who I've met, who I've had an open exchange and dialogue with,

01:24:06.000 you know, number of number of weeks or months ago, if he means what he says,

01:24:10.000 and it sounds like he does, that they want to be moved towards being a more open platform for diverse views.

01:24:15.000 Then I don't think that type of host actually makes sense in that organization.

01:24:19.000 So to me, it's not just about cancel culture in the other direction and saying that,

01:24:23.000 hey, Don Lemon, it's a good thing he's fired.

01:24:25.000 The question is, what's your purpose as an organization?

01:24:27.000 And if CNN's purpose is to air multiple different perspectives on air,

01:24:31.000 then I think that you can't have TV hosts who tell guests, whoever they are,

01:24:35.000 that they can't speak or express an idea about post-Civil War reconstruction history in America

01:24:41.000 without thinking about what their skin color or race is first.

01:24:45.000 The good thing about me, Megan, is I didn't take particular offense to that exchange.

01:24:48.000 I actually found it really useful. I'm glad we did it.

01:24:51.000 It was a little bit awkward to be on set in the Larry David sense of awkward, but that's okay.

01:24:55.000 I can handle that. That's not a problem for me.

01:24:58.000 I think it's actually really important that we surface some of these dogmas and unspoken expectations

01:25:04.000 that have otherwise been simmering beneath the surface of American discourse.

01:25:08.000 I'm all in favor of actually speaking those hard truths. Let those boil over.

01:25:13.000 I think we need to do that as part of our, let's just say, national self-therapy to get to a place where

01:25:19.000 it's not the way that other guests might have approached it to say that,

01:25:22.000 well, because Don Lemon is black and we're talking about a sensitive issue

01:25:25.000 relating to the history of African-Americans in this country, I'm going to tread around that differently.

01:25:29.000 I did not. I spoke to Don Lemon the same way I would have if he were white or any other race.

01:25:33.000 It doesn't matter.

01:25:34.000 But what was amazing was he had the nerve to call you out on that as though it were improper,

01:25:40.000 that you as a brown-skinned man didn't have a working knowledge of U.S. history 0.94

01:25:47.000 when it comes to American black people enough to opine on it while sitting across from a black man.

01:25:54.000 I mean that there was some sort of racial hierarchy that would have required you to defer to his opinions about America's history, about historical fact.

01:26:07.000 So that is what the theory of intersectionality, as you well know, is all about.

01:26:10.000 There's a hierarchy of whether you're an oppressor or whether you're oppressed.

01:26:14.000 And if you're lower on that hierarchy, according to that set of rules, you have to either step up and stand up and speak or step back,

01:26:21.000 as they say in their language of the woke movement, to step back and not speak to give the person of the lower rung on that ladder the chance to speak.

01:26:29.000 I reject that worldview.

01:26:30.000 I think we're all co-equal citizens.

01:26:32.000 Everyone's voice and vote counts equally in the open debate and marketplace of ideas.

01:26:37.000 But in the case of Don Lemon, I was on set with him, Megan.

01:26:40.000 I can tell you what I actually saw happening was that his head exploded a little bit when there were two conflicting ideas that I brought to the fore.

01:26:47.000 And I didn't want to talk about the NRA speech particularly.

01:26:49.000 They're the ones who brought it up.

01:26:51.000 They put an excerpt of my speech up, asked me to respond to it.

01:26:53.000 So I did.

01:26:54.000 The two conflicting ideas were, one, if you're in Don Lemon's headspace, civil rights are a good thing.

01:27:00.000 Second Amendment rights are a bad thing. 0.75

01:27:02.000 That's just an ossified worldview.

01:27:04.000 And part of what I taught him, it's part of history.

01:27:07.000 It's part of American history.

01:27:08.000 We just got to go study it, is that actually the civil rights of black Americans were never secured until they actually enjoyed Second Amendment protections.

01:27:16.000 In fact, part of the black codes that were passed in the Reconstruction era were designed to take guns and gun ownership rights away from black Americans.

01:27:25.000 That's not an accident.

01:27:26.000 The Dred Scott decision, which preceded the Civil War, Chief Justice Taney famously and ignominiously said that part of the reason black people couldn't be citizens in this country is because it would give them the right to own guns.

01:27:39.000 So this is fundamental stuff, even in Supreme Court doctrine.

01:27:42.000 I was exposing that history, but that made Don Lemon's head explode because to him, Second Amendment bad, civil rights good. 0.51

01:27:48.000 And I'm committing some sort of cardinal sin by mixing the two together.

01:27:51.000 When it's just a fact of history that actually one was fundamental to securing the other.

01:27:55.000 And the audience should know that Vivek went to, in addition to his success on Wall Street and so on, went to Yale Law School.

01:28:01.000 I mean, he graduated from Yale Law School.

01:28:02.000 So you know the law.

01:28:03.000 You were prepared for a debate or a discussion on that.

01:28:05.000 But the irony is, if he actually expected you to seed the arguments to him because he's a black man and you're not, he shouldn't have had you on the show. 0.93

01:28:15.000 He should have just looked into the camera and offered his own opinions on all these matters.

01:28:19.000 He invited you to be interviewed on his program and then got upset when you actually offered your view and explained why you made the claims about gun rights and so on.

01:28:30.000 And so his intersectionality approach doesn't work.

01:28:33.000 If you want that, go be a pundit.

01:28:36.000 Don't be an interviewer on a national cable show.

01:28:39.000 Yeah, I tend to agree with you on that, Megan.

01:28:41.000 And my whole point is I actually go to these forums precisely because right now there's two alternatives.

01:28:46.000 I present a third.

01:28:47.000 Alternative number one is you go on there, but you have to actually follow the orthodoxy.

01:28:51.000 You have to effectively bend the knee quietly without saying it.

01:28:54.000 Acknowledge that when you're talking about certain subjects to people of a certain race that you have to tread around it.

01:28:59.000 I don't do that.

01:29:00.000 Option number two is you do that.

01:29:02.000 You come out looking like a villain, which is how they're ready to portray you.

01:29:05.000 I pick a third path.

01:29:06.000 Let's be dignified.

01:29:07.000 Let's actually stick to our arguments without compromising on our principles, but do it unapologetically in a way that surfaces the actual tension underneath that implicit assumption that other people don't talk about.

01:29:18.000 And I think it would be a mistake here to just focus on Don Lemon.

01:29:21.000 I mean, he's, I think, look, I think there's better models for how to succeed in your career as a journalist in staying close to the truth than following Don Lemon's path.

01:29:30.000 But it's not all about him.

01:29:31.000 He's representing a worldview.

01:29:33.000 I mean, take Congresswoman Ayanna Pressley of the squad. 1.00

01:29:36.000 She's not a journalist.

01:29:37.000 She's in Congress. 0.91

01:29:38.000 But she basically said the same thing even more concisely than Don Lemon did a couple of years ago when she said, we don't want any more black faces that don't want to be a black voice. 0.99

01:29:48.000 That's an exact quote.

01:29:49.000 I don't fit her description of what counts as a brown voice because I reject the premise that your skin color ought to predict anything about the content of the ideas you're allowed to espouse.

01:30:04.000 That is true racism.

01:30:05.000 That is definitional racism to say that I can predict something about the content of your ideas based on the color of your skin.

01:30:11.000 And yet that's become quietly accepted in much of mainstream culture in America.

01:30:17.000 I will say, Megan, though, I'm optimistic.

01:30:19.000 I think the fact that we're having this conversation on the back of CNN making the decision to actually remove Don Lemon from air, hopefully replace him with somebody who's a more thoughtful journalist.

01:30:28.000 I do think I'm actually quite optimistic that we're a domino effect, a hair's trigger away from a national revival that rejects this woke orthodoxy that's been an assault on American excellence.

01:30:40.000 You saw it from Netflix about a year ago after the Dave Chappelle controversy.

01:30:44.000 I think this is a good move that Chris Licht has taken at CNN.

01:30:47.000 I think if we keep our optimism alive, right, I think a lot of that woke woke ism that has infected institutions over the last several years, people are hungry for something new.

01:30:55.000 I think it's up to conservatives in this country.

01:30:57.000 This is why I feel called to do it, to lead the way with an affirmative vision of our own, not just being victimized by the victimhood culture, but by actually leading the way with our own vision.

01:31:07.000 Well, we've heard people like Joy Reid explicitly say about black people in America who have heterodox views on this whole woke ism their skin folk, but not kin folk.

01:31:16.000 That's you know, that's how they dismiss anybody who sees things the way you do, but happens to be a black man or a black woman. 0.92

01:31:23.000 It's absolutely disrespectful and it's racist.

01:31:26.000 I do want to ask you, first of all, did you have that conversation with Chris Licht, the new head of CNN, took over for Jeff Zucker after that exchange with Don Lemon on the air?

01:31:35.000 It was before it was beforehand. I was I was I thought it was my place to leave them be.

01:31:41.000 I think there was a lot of discomfort after that, and they were very respectful of the people who had booked me right after I was off air.

01:31:47.000 But I left that. Well, let me show you the ending. Let me show the audience the end.

01:31:50.000 The very, very last part where he, Poppy tried to save it.

01:31:53.000 I mean, this is what you do when you're a co-anchor. I've been there with something tense happens.

01:31:57.000 You try to diffuse the tension a little, keep things nice with the guest before they leave and say nice goodbye, which she attempted to do.

01:32:04.000 And he was clearly irritated by her and he always lets his irritation show.

01:32:08.000 This is one of the reasons why that morning show is a disaster.

01:32:10.000 They have record low ratings and his co-hosts very clearly can't stand him.

01:32:16.000 But here was his last parting remark in the whole exchange to Poppy.

01:32:22.000 We appreciate you coming on with due respect, Don. I look forward to continuing that conversation.

01:32:26.000 Well, thank you. The conversation. Thank you so much.

01:32:28.000 Thank you, Poppy. We'll talk about China. Yes.

01:32:30.000 You come back. Oh, thank you. Much to say on declaring independence from China. 0.95

01:32:34.000 OK, something you can add on now. Thank you. Thank you.

01:32:39.000 Mm hmm. So we can move on now, please.

01:32:42.000 And so the reports are that they'd had it between his reported diva moments and his sexist remarks.

01:32:50.000 The Nikki Haley thing, there's a report this morning, I think it's in the Daily Mail, talking about how so many staffers at CNN were actually really ticked off and offended by saying, you know, Nikki Haley's passed her prime.

01:33:01.000 Sorry, a woman's passed her prime when she's out of her 20s, 30s, maybe at age 40 and on and on. 1.00

01:33:06.000 There's lots of examples. Don Lemon not liking women. He doesn't doesn't like women.

01:33:10.000 That's my opinion. It seems pretty clear.

01:33:12.000 He blames everything on women. Anything goes wrong on the set. 0.65

01:33:15.000 Interruption. It's the woman's fault. Trust me. That's his M.O. 1.00

01:33:18.000 Blame the woman. And so I do wonder, Megan, there's a funny connection there just to just to briefly draw it.

01:33:24.000 So he's a man who feels particularly totally free to talk about when women are or are not in their prime and to criticize women for being women,

01:33:31.000 but somehow believes that if you're not black, you can't actually even make a comment about supposed war history.

01:33:35.000 Right.

01:33:36.000 There is a certain rich irony in that if you observe it.

01:33:38.000 That's how the woke are. They have a weird hierarchy that you really have to be immersed in it to totally understand it.

01:33:42.000 So after that moment when they said goodbye to you, Vivek, what was that? What was it like?

01:33:46.000 It's always kind of fun to get a behind the scenes, you know, wrap up of what happened on set after something like that.

01:33:50.000 Yeah, so I had a nice exchange with Poppy. I felt bad for her, to be honest, because I think she had been sidelined in the conversation. She was trying her best. So I told her, look, we have conversation China later on. I walked off. I went out of my way to really be thankful to the producers and those who are on set as well. I think it was awkward for everyone there. So I tried to do my part to bring a lighthearted tone and say they're doing great work and to keep up the keep up the beautiful set. That's what I think I told them, which is a

01:33:55.000 nice looking set, I guess. Okay. And then I left and you know what they were very decent about it afterwards. I think they reached out to my parents and I think they're doing great work and to keep up the keep up the beautiful set. That's what I think I told them, which is a nice looking set, I guess. Okay. And then I left and you know what, they were very decent about it afterwards. I think they reached out to my parents.

01:34:24.000 Afterwards, I think they reached out to my people who, who did the scheduling to, you know, effectively apologize for that interaction, but I don't need apologies. I think that this is good actually for our country to be able to air this kind of underlying tension in our discourse.

01:34:37.340 It's so crazy. It shows the craziness. It's like something to somebody saying to me, like women didn't actually, they got the right to vote, you know, in 1920, but they didn't actually get their power until 1970. And me saying, no, actually the data show that in the 1960s, they were really coming of age. And, and somebody being like, no, actually the data show that in 1970s,

01:34:54.000 74, that's when it started. And me being like, you're a man. I'm a woman. Shut up. People do that. Shut up. People who say that kind of stuff. It's ridiculous. Thank you for calling it out and giving us a good, good example of how they operate.

01:35:06.840 Now you mentioned something because it crusading against these woke, you know, pushes in corporate media, in corporate America and so on has been a big issue for you. This is one of the reasons why I love what you're doing.

01:35:19.040 Um, there's an update in the whole Bud Light disaster today, which is just, I think spectacular. So of course their stock price fell in the wake of the boycott after they partner with trans activist or trans person, Dylan Mulvaney and, um, their core audience and core, you know, purchasers revolted across America saying, what are you doing? We don't want you dabbling in this stuff. Just service our beer for the love of God. Shut up and service the beer.

01:35:45.540 And they try to be quiet. It failed. Their stock price was dwindling and their sales were dwindling. Then their stock price went a little back up. And the people who are against you on the woke stuff, Vivek said, oh, it went back up. Ha ha ha. But the real question was, how about the sales? How about the sales? The stock's going to do what the stock's going to do. Well, how are they doing on the sales of Bud Light? Well, now we have an answer to that. And by the way, they, um, they saw these numbers before we did that the people at Bud Light, uh, the reading from the New York post today, Bud Light has a number of sales. 0.99

01:36:15.540 Bud Light has suffered a staggering sales hit following its disastrous marketing tie-up with transgender influencer Dylan Mulvaney. The latest data showing a 17% drop in sales. 17. It only went down, I think, 8% or 6% in the first week after the controversy. And now, uh, it's, it's, uh, almost triple that the drop in sales and probably going to go up even more.

01:36:40.240 They've now put this, the woman who made the decision, we're told, uh, Alyssa on, uh, leave of absence, though it was clearly not her idea. And I don't think she's ever coming back as well as her boss also on a leave of absence. And I think this is a huge victory.

01:36:57.020 I'd like to see them fight. I think they're fired. So I'm taking the W. Um, however, I think this is a, an inflection point in these, in the battle that you've been fighting and, um, yours truly as well, to a lesser extent to get these corporations to stay in their lane and just do their thing. Sell your beer, sell your facial cream, but stop trying to wokeify America.

01:37:16.620 Yeah. That's what makes America great is that we have a system of capitalism that is insulated, or at least historically has been from partisan politics. First of all, that makes companies more successful. Bud Light's just one example among many. Megan, that's what the whole book is about. The capitalist punishment book that I'm putting that's out today.

01:37:36.040 That is about why companies are more successful when they are not encumbered by these environmental and social agendas. But there's something even more fundamental than that, Megan, which is that actually Tocqueville, Alexis de Tocqueville, he made this observation about America. We're a diverse, divided democratic society. We're not supposed to last for more than a couple of generations, unless there are these apolitical spaces that bind us together, that literally bring us together. Bud Light is, is liquid fuel that brings people together.

01:38:06.040 At football games at parties across the country. It's uniting. When that itself becomes politicized, that's really the beginning of the end of the American experiment. If we lose those apolitical sanctuaries that are supposed to hold us together. And Tocqueville said that back then too, is America requires what he calls these intermediate institutions. Capitalism is the biggest of those. And so for me on a personal level, it's not just because I think it makes companies less successful, though that's definitely true. And we see that example on display here.

01:38:34.400 It's that it makes America and our constitutional republic itself less successful. It won't survive if we don't have those spaces where we can come together across the divides of identity politics or partisan politics. I'm with you, Megan. I think that we are at a potential turning point here.

01:38:52.300 I think people, you know, the woke, woke movement, what it did is the analogy I sometimes have used is, it's like when young people are hungry for a cause. They tell them you satisfy your moral hunger by going to Ben and Jerry's and ordering a cup of ice cream with some social justice sprinkles on the side. I mean, effectively, that's been the culture for the last several years.

01:39:11.700 I think that you don't satisfy a moral hunger with fast food. You sort of get that hit initially, but then that starts to fade away and you still realize you're still hungry. Hungry for something more substantial, purpose that you derive from something other than corporate virtue signaling.

01:39:28.440 And that's the opportunity in front of us for the conservative movement. Can we fill that void with a vision of American identity that's actually more powerful, that dilutes the woke agenda to irrelevance?

01:39:39.860 That's a question of whether the conservative movement can rise to that occasion or not. That's why it used to be in this presidential race.

01:39:45.020 The way it used to be in this country.

01:39:46.480 The way it can be. And the way it can be.

01:39:48.300 How? How? How? How? How? How? That's the problem. Like, I'm with you. 100% with you. But how on earth are we going to get these young people to get back to that? I mean, yeah, teaching civics. What? We're going to force them to go back to church? That's up to their parents. Americans are moving away from religion, away from more children, away from civics. It's depressing. But how can a president push us back?

01:40:09.860 In that direction. Look, I think part of this is, and there are many hats to wear here. One is a policymaking hat, and I can come to that. But some of this is through the kind of leadership and national character that you set. I don't think we have had a president in this country since Reagan who tied the what, what we're doing, the motions we're going through, to the why, to the principles that actually set the country into motion.

01:40:31.900 And I reject this political worldview that both parties seem to espouse, that human beings are somehow just these biological automatons walking around, and we're supposed to bean count them to see how they'll vote.

01:40:42.720 I believe in the power of persuasion. I think people are, especially young people, Megan, are hungry to be led.

01:40:49.040 I went to, you know, we've done these bus tours for the last few days. I was in New Hampshire on a bus tour. I was in Iowa on a bus tour. South Carolina's a bus tour later this week.

01:40:56.460 We stopped at college campuses on these bus tours. I went to one, New England College in New Hampshire, where I was told that other Republican candidates didn't want to show up at some of these college campuses.

01:41:07.140 Well, you don't know why? It's because they're going to get the kinds of questions that I got, which aren't that different than interaction with Don Lemon on set.

01:41:13.020 But the thing about, unlike Don Lemon, who's making, you know, was making millions of dollars while claiming to be a victim, the difference with young people on these college campuses,

01:41:20.060 they don't really believe the stuff they're fed and spewing back. They're hungry. They're lost.

01:41:25.760 And I think if we can fill that void with even a sense of leadership, talking about understanding that our worst hypocrisies as a nation are actually our best evidence that we have ideals at all, 0.81

01:41:36.260 because to be a hypocrite, you at least had to have those ideals.

01:41:39.420 I think we bring these people along, Megan, because here's the other thing about being 21 years old or 19 years old. 0.98

01:41:45.180 You want to stick it to the man. You want to stand up to the system and be a hippie and be countercultural.

01:41:50.060 That's what made the woke movement popular in the first place, is that that was sticking it to the system of the people who are in power.

01:41:56.320 Well, now we've come full circle where what began as a challenge to the system has become the system.

01:42:02.420 I think we can actually tap into young people's desire to be heterodox.

01:42:06.580 You don't want to be heterodox? Call yourself a religious conservative on a college campus.

01:42:10.140 See what that does to you. And I think it takes a certain voice.

01:42:13.260 And I think it takes us. I'm 37. I'm the first millennial to ever run for president as a Republican.

01:42:17.380 But I want to use these attributes to reach that next generation.

01:42:21.300 I'm actually optimistic that that opportunity is sitting in front of us just through persuasion alone.

01:42:25.980 On policy, I could give you a lot of my ideas on how to do it.

01:42:28.140 But actually, I think this other cultural character is almost more important.

01:42:31.620 And then the policies just follow naturally from that.

01:42:33.880 I am. I'm gleaning.

01:42:35.280 It's almost like you don't feel our current president has this ability.

01:42:40.960 But Vivek, perhaps it's because you have not seen his announcement rally that he held today with thousands of people cheering him on.

01:42:49.840 So, oh, wait, that didn't happen.

01:42:51.700 He announced that he's running for reelection on videotape.

01:42:56.320 And the message was, well, I'll let you react.

01:43:00.440 Here's a bit of it.

01:43:01.080 You know, around the country, MAGA extremists are lining up to take on those bedrock freedoms.

01:43:11.760 Cutting Social Security that you paid for your entire life while cutting taxes for the very wealthy.

01:43:17.140 Dictating what health care decisions women can make. 0.99

01:43:19.820 Banning books and telling people who they can love.

01:43:23.560 All while making it more difficult for you to be able to vote.

01:43:26.200 When I ran for president four years ago, I said we're in a battle for the soul of America.

01:43:31.420 And we still are.

01:43:34.040 I feel uplifted and optimistic about America.

01:43:36.680 How about you?

01:43:37.960 Well, that really sounds like a man who says he wants to deliver national unity by labeling his opponents.

01:43:44.660 People disagree with him as MAGA extremists.

01:43:47.300 You know, Joe Biden said he wanted to run on a vision of national unity.

01:43:50.620 If he was going to deliver it, it would have happened already.

01:43:53.280 By the way, the single most unifying, he had his chance.

01:43:55.620 It was teed up for him.

01:43:57.180 He had his chance to unify this country.

01:43:59.120 You know how he could have done it?

01:44:00.460 Is when Donald Trump was arrested and indicted by Alvin Bragg, a member of Joe Biden's political party.

01:44:06.120 If Joe Biden had said what I said at that same time, as somebody who was also running against Trump, that this is a politicized prosecution, it's persecution.

01:44:12.800 And even though you shouldn't elect Trump, you know what?

01:44:15.480 This is wrong and we should not arrest our political opponents.

01:44:18.820 That was his moment for national unity.

01:44:21.500 I don't think he cares about that.

01:44:22.740 But here's the thing that's deeper, Megan, and I think it's the joke and the farce in all of this that we may as well call out.

01:44:27.980 Joe Biden's not really the one running for president.

01:44:30.260 Let's just call that for what it is, right?

01:44:31.700 He's over twice my age and then some, but it's not even the age thing.

01:44:36.060 It's his cognitive deficits.

01:44:38.280 They're not a bug.

01:44:39.360 They're a feature for the managerial class who would rather have a hollowed out husk in the White House. 0.71

01:44:46.660 They're almost needling the American people.

01:44:48.960 They're almost needling the citizens of this country, laughing, saying, you know how much we rule you as the managerial class, the three-letter acronomists, bureaucratic soup in Washington, D.C.

01:44:58.820 We can put that guy up, barely mentally competent, present even as a human being.

01:45:04.160 That's who we can put up, and we're still going to run the show for you.

01:45:07.920 That's what this really is.

01:45:09.380 And so when I see myself running against Joe Biden in this race, I'm not running against Biden.

01:45:13.720 I'm running against a puppet like the Wizard of Oz, the front man, for a managerial class that's behind it.

01:45:19.580 That's really the heart of what's going on, and we might as well see that for what it is.

01:45:23.520 And it's also why the DNC, by the way, doesn't want to have debates, because they want to make sure the front man for that managerial class isn't subjected to debate from the likes of RFK or Marianne Williamson or anybody else.

01:45:34.600 And so I think it's worth seeing through the farce that somehow this is about Biden and his failure.

01:45:39.100 He's just the stooge who's the front man at the end of it.

01:45:41.880 Let's get to what's behind it.

01:45:43.020 That's really what we're up against.

01:45:43.700 And they're going to allow it.

01:45:44.740 I mean, they're going to allow it.

01:45:45.560 They are saying that they're not going to be debates, so RFK Jr. is not going to get the shot to go after Biden, never mind Marianne Williamson or whoever else.

01:45:53.140 Might try to throw their hat in the ring.

01:45:55.020 But meanwhile, this is what they're up against.

01:45:57.240 NBC News poll released Sunday.

01:45:59.040 Should Biden run again?

01:46:01.820 70 percent say no.

01:46:04.460 Only 26 percent say yes.

01:46:07.680 You look at the numbers.

01:46:10.580 OK, this is the Biden voters from 2020.

01:46:14.360 Only 53 percent of them think that he should vote again or run again.

01:46:17.960 Only 53 percent.

01:46:18.940 He barely has a majority of the people who voted for him last time who won him again.

01:46:22.600 And amongst young people, 18 to 34 year olds, 76 percent say do not run again.

01:46:30.560 We've had enough of you among Democratic primary voters who say he should not run.

01:46:35.340 The answers are he's too old.

01:46:38.060 He's ineffective. 0.99

01:46:39.500 There's a mental health problem. 1.00

01:46:41.100 He's forgetful. 0.99

01:46:42.240 He's not as sharp as he needs to be.

01:46:43.800 We need someone younger.

01:46:45.100 By the way, Trump did not do well in this poll either.

01:46:46.980 But right now we're on Biden.

01:46:48.900 And what you are saying is reflected in the polls of his own party.

01:46:54.820 But he is running again.

01:46:57.180 Dark Brandon is back.

01:46:58.560 That's how he chose to make his announcement.

01:47:00.340 And not only is he not going to debate, Vivek, he's he's going back down to the basement.

01:47:03.820 The fact that this is on tape and he didn't have the ability to stand in front of a camera

01:47:09.880 live and say these comments, never mind actual people and make his own re-announcement.

01:47:17.280 That's it.

01:47:17.960 As we get news reports, he's at a record low for press conferences and interactions with

01:47:23.040 reporters, one on one interviews.

01:47:25.200 He can't talk to anybody.

01:47:27.040 I literally think he might be at the point where he cannot.

01:47:31.160 It's it's it's not will not any longer.

01:47:33.400 He cannot.

01:47:34.400 And we're really approaching crisis, a crisis point here.

01:47:39.160 I mean, the fact that this is a form of elder abuse, that's just a cost of doing business

01:47:43.320 for the managerial class.

01:47:44.640 Same reason they want John Fetterman in one of those U.S.

01:47:46.940 Senate seats.

01:47:47.500 Right.

01:47:48.240 I don't even blame these people at all.

01:47:50.380 I feel bad for them.

01:47:51.540 They're being used by a managerial bureaucracy that actually this is how it works.

01:47:55.960 And it's spitting in the face of their own base, by the way.

01:47:59.080 Right.

01:47:59.260 This is the managerial class versus the everyday citizen.

01:48:02.120 That's the struggle across the American and Western landscape today.

01:48:05.240 It's even beyond America.

01:48:06.320 It's definitely true, even within the Democratic Party, as you pointed out.

01:48:10.240 But, Megan, I think that if you look at those numbers and take them seriously, this is the

01:48:14.400 opportunity of a generation for the conservative movement, for the Republican Party to rise to

01:48:19.140 the occasion and actually deliver what Ronald Reagan did in 1980, a landslide election.

01:48:25.280 He did it in 1884.

01:48:26.700 Again, a landslide election that's the single most unifying thing that could bring this country

01:48:31.340 together.

01:48:32.200 So I'm running this campaign, not even on Republicans versus Democrats.

01:48:35.660 It's about whether you're pro-American.

01:48:37.460 Do you believe in the ideals that set the country into motion?

01:48:40.220 Free speech, open debate, rule of law, self-governance over aristocracy, merit.

01:48:45.640 Who would have ever thought about that idea?

01:48:47.740 Versus a culture that wishes to apologize for the existence of a nation founded on those ideals.

01:48:53.520 View it that way, it's not 50-50 anymore.

01:48:57.120 It's easily 80-20 in our favor.

01:48:58.940 And I think half the 20 are young people younger than me who never learned those ideals in the

01:49:02.980 first place.

01:49:04.620 1980 can be a small landslide compared to what 2024 can be if we in the conservative movement

01:49:10.760 in the Republican Party actually step up and capture that opportunity.

01:49:14.880 I'm in this race because I'm worried that's not the direction we're heading.

01:49:19.220 Okay?

01:49:19.700 Yeah.

01:49:20.220 As a 37-year-old, a millennial, somebody who's with a division, that's what you need to do. 0.56

01:49:23.380 Let me squeeze in a break and we'll come back and we'll talk about the gorilla and how you

01:49:28.180 get past the gorilla, the 800-pound gorilla in the room, because you are not the only one

01:49:32.900 running for president and in particular for the GOP nomination.

01:49:36.160 Stand by.

01:49:36.540 Vivek stays with us.

01:49:37.420 And I'm also going to ask him about his thoughts on Tucker's termination at Fox News.

01:49:43.160 And Vivek went on the 8 p.m. hour last night.

01:49:49.860 So the gorilla Vivek is Donald Trump.

01:49:53.040 He's already been president, which definitely gives him a leg up going into this contest.

01:49:58.360 And some have been critical of you running it all, saying, if you're not going to take

01:50:03.060 on Donald Trump directly and tell us why you're better than he is, not just, you know, younger,

01:50:07.900 but why are you a better choice?

01:50:09.900 Then what's the point of this?

01:50:11.880 Oh, I have been, Megan.

01:50:13.020 I think a lot of those people are thin-skinned supporters of certain other candidates who

01:50:16.120 actually suffer from thin-skinned themselves, can take on criticism very poorly.

01:50:20.300 My view is if you can't take the criticism, you shouldn't be sitting across the table

01:50:23.180 from Xi Jinping.

01:50:24.420 But I've absolutely been very clear about why I'm in this race vis-a-vis Donald Trump versus

01:50:29.340 Donald Trump.

01:50:30.580 Look, Trump went as far as he was going to go.

01:50:32.300 I'm an unapologetic America first conservative.

01:50:35.600 I think I can take that America first agenda even further than Donald Trump did.

01:50:40.560 Because to put America first, we need to rediscover what America is.

01:50:45.840 And I tell grassroots audiences across the country this, Megan, America first does not

01:50:50.220 belong to Donald Trump.

01:50:51.580 It doesn't belong to me.

01:50:52.600 It belongs to the people of this country.

01:50:54.720 Reagan actually ran on an America first agenda.

01:50:56.760 It wasn't born in 2016.

01:50:59.280 It was born in 1776.

01:51:01.160 And the reason I think I'm going to go further-

01:51:04.180 Beyond the rhetoric, it's specific.

01:51:05.560 Yeah.

01:51:06.280 Sure.

01:51:06.660 So look, affirmative action.

01:51:07.920 I push Trump's people on this.

01:51:09.780 Why didn't you end race-based affirmative action? 1.00

01:51:12.120 That's something that a US president can do.

01:51:15.160 Lyndon Johnson started it by executive order.

01:51:17.520 You can end it by executive order.

01:51:19.060 What they told me was that was a political hill they didn't want to die on.

01:51:22.960 Well, I'm not afraid of touching that one.

01:51:24.780 I've said on day one, I would end executive order 11246.

01:51:28.480 That's the end of a national cancer on our soul of affirmative action. 0.72

01:51:32.360 The climate cult.

01:51:33.440 Not just talk about time horizons.

01:51:35.420 I'm wholesale against the anti-carbon measurement framework itself.

01:51:39.040 And I'll run the federal government accordingly.

01:51:41.440 You know, Trump will put Betsy DeVos on top of the Department of Education. 1.00

01:51:44.720 I like Betsy DeVos plenty. 1.00

01:51:46.360 You don't reform an administrative agency top down.

01:51:48.680 You have to be willing to shut it down, which is why I said I would abolish the Department

01:51:53.580 of Education.

01:51:54.760 Trump's been saying that more recently.

01:51:56.860 He's been saying that and people have been saying, why didn't you do it when you were

01:51:59.100 president?

01:51:59.660 Yeah, keep going.

01:52:00.740 Yeah, I mean, exactly.

01:52:02.120 So look, I think, and this gets to the why, which I'll get to in a second, Megan, but

01:52:05.380 there's plenty of contrast.

01:52:06.860 Not just build the wall.

01:52:07.780 Use the military to secure that wall.

01:52:10.040 Secure the border itself.

01:52:12.100 And I think there's a strong legal case for why you absolutely can use the US military to

01:52:16.800 secure our own border, even though the defense establishment recoils at that idea.

01:52:21.580 So you want to ask for contrast?

01:52:22.880 I've been unafraid about saying it, is that I think I will go further with the America

01:52:28.140 First agenda than Donald Trump did because I'm doing it based on first principles and

01:52:33.920 moral authority, not just vengeance and grievance.

01:52:37.960 And that's not a stylistic difference.

01:52:39.980 That's an effectiveness difference.

01:52:42.140 That's why Reagan was able to do what he did over the eight years from 1980 to 1988.

01:52:47.280 I think I can do the same thing eight years starting in 2024, January 2025 when I take

01:52:51.920 office.

01:52:52.880 But I will tell you this, that is something that the America First base, the Trump base

01:52:57.560 is actually hungry for and open to.

01:53:00.100 And that's how I think I'm demonstrating that contrast to not only go further with the agenda,

01:53:04.500 but also to unite the country in the process.

01:53:08.360 And I'm in this because I think I'm the single candidate in either party who has our last

01:53:13.120 best chance of unifying this country, not just on show up in the middle and saying, let's

01:53:19.160 hold hands and compromise and sing kumbaya.

01:53:21.400 Certain other candidates might want to do that.

01:53:23.340 I think we deliver national unity by embracing the radicalism of the ideals that set America

01:53:30.120 into motion, stand on principled footing.

01:53:32.460 And the other side will come after me, but I won't make it as easy for them to do that

01:53:35.840 as Donald Trump did for himself.

01:53:37.660 I will be living many of the values that I preach about, family values, belief in God.

01:53:42.780 We're unapologetic about these things.

01:53:44.720 But when you lead with moral authority, I think you get to go further and unite the country.

01:53:50.120 And it is a little bit of a laughable narrative.

01:53:51.800 I think it's pushed by a lot of DeSantis' people because Ron DeSantis has very thin skin.

01:53:55.320 He won't talk to people who disagree with him.

01:53:56.880 And so if you're criticizing DeSantis, then he's jealous that I'm not criticizing Trump.

01:54:01.560 To the contrary, I will talk very openly about why I believe I'm the best candidate.

01:54:05.820 But just because I differentiate that from DeSantis doesn't mean that I won't differentiate

01:54:09.140 that from Trump or any other candidate either.

01:54:10.960 That's been a laughable talk track.

01:54:12.820 Yeah.

01:54:13.100 One of those critics who I think does like DeSantis a lot is our friend Charles C.W.

01:54:17.180 Cook.

01:54:17.400 He comes on the show a lot, but he is not your fan, as I know you know.

01:54:21.700 He wrote now he did reel me in with the beginning of his column because he referenced Pride and

01:54:26.040 Prejudice, which, you know, pretty much every woman I know absolutely loves.

01:54:29.180 And he was comparing you to Mr. Wickham.

01:54:32.060 Oh, Vivek.

01:54:33.540 He was comparing you to Mr. Wickham.

01:54:35.200 He is a Brit himself, Charles C.W.

01:54:36.580 Cook.

01:54:36.780 Now he's an American.

01:54:37.700 And he said, I first became aware of Vivek Ramaswamy at an event in 2021, like Jane Austen's

01:54:42.140 Mr. Wickham from Pride and Prejudice.

01:54:44.440 He said you did the following, which was a line from Mr. Bennett, Elizabeth Bennett's dad,

01:54:51.360 as portrayed here in the 1995 version of the movie Pride and Prejudice.

01:54:55.500 Listen.

01:54:57.200 He's as fine a fellow as ever I saw.

01:55:00.160 He symphys and smirks and makes love to us all.

01:55:04.160 Symphys and smirks and makes love to us all.

01:55:06.400 That was the BBC version, which is amazing.

01:55:09.380 I watched that whole thing on videotape.

01:55:10.840 I have all the tapes are like 10 of them.

01:55:12.460 Well worth your time if you're ever homesick.

01:55:14.320 Okay.

01:55:15.100 Anywho, his point is as follows, Vivek.

01:55:17.680 And I'm not trying to just rub your nose in a nasty column, but I've heard people raise

01:55:21.520 this criticism and I know you have thick skin.

01:55:22.940 He says, Vivek, he's not really running for president.

01:55:26.860 He hasn't really given up his job.

01:55:28.940 He's transitioned into another one.

01:55:30.580 He's not really thinking about what it means to be an American.

01:55:32.740 He's building a ginormous mailing list.

01:55:34.620 He's not really selling a vision that I have personally developed, quote unquote.

01:55:37.800 He's running as Donald Trump's obsequious press secretary.

01:55:41.360 That's an as, not a to be.

01:55:43.680 As a candidate, Ramaswamy is not running to be Donald Trump's press secretary.

01:55:47.560 He is running as Trump's press secretary.

01:55:51.560 Ramaswamy seems set to become the first contender for president in American history whose approach

01:55:55.240 to the race is to sell the virtues of the frontrunner better than the frontrunner can

01:55:59.560 himself.

01:56:00.620 And he goes on to say as follows.

01:56:02.620 It was inevitable that at some point a talented entrepreneur would come along and truly industrialize

01:56:07.420 the process.

01:56:07.980 And so it has come to pass.

01:56:09.220 Ramaswamy 2024 by the book, the ETF and the imminent show on Fox Business weekdays at 7

01:56:16.360 p.m.

01:56:17.080 Eastern time.

01:56:18.200 Your thoughts on it.

01:56:19.780 I think it's pretty funny.

01:56:20.880 I don't know the guy.

01:56:21.680 I think I think it's an embodiment of why the National Review brand of conservatism has

01:56:25.440 actually gone the way of irrelevance that it has in this country, because the sense of

01:56:29.320 respect that I exhibit in this race that he mistakes for being for one man about Donald

01:56:33.780 Trump is actually for the people of this country who I'm running to serve.

01:56:37.520 OK, so I think that the disrespect, the quiet condescension, I think there's a wing of the

01:56:42.140 Republican Party, frankly, that looks at the MAGA voter the way that much of the Democratic

01:56:46.620 establishment looks at black people. 0.99

01:56:48.640 Shut up, sit down, do as you're told, because we're going to do better for you than you know 1.00

01:56:51.660 how to do for yourself. 0.99

01:56:52.980 And I think that Charles Cook, I don't know the guy, but based on his writings, I think

01:56:56.020 seems to embody that worldview of of old school Republicanism that I think is long out the

01:57:01.640 door.

01:57:02.200 And I think that I have to confess, I only read the first.

01:57:04.540 Thanks for reading me the rest, because it seems so far off the mark.

01:57:07.240 I decided it wasn't worth my money to pay for the paywall to see the rest of that article.

01:57:10.760 So I got something out of that exchange that you just delivered.

01:57:14.120 Look, for me personally, this is table stakes for getting into race.

01:57:17.480 You're running for U.S. president.

01:57:18.820 You better be willing to take the heat and take a little bit of criticism or else you

01:57:21.980 shouldn't be asking the American people to sit across the table from autocrats abroad. 0.74

01:57:25.580 It's my main issue with DeSantis is I think that he he refuses to take that heat.

01:57:29.840 I'll take that heat.

01:57:30.440 I have no problem with it.

01:57:31.820 But I think here's the here's the thing.

01:57:33.080 I mean, the first part of our conversation, I don't know if that sounded very much like

01:57:35.660 a press secretary for Donald Trump to you, Megan.

01:57:38.120 I'm drawing a contrast on why I will take this much further than Donald Trump ever did.

01:57:42.740 And I'm what are the differences?

01:57:44.340 And I've heard you say differences with between you and Trump before.

01:57:47.000 Yeah, I think Charlie, I love Charlie and I love National Review.

01:57:49.500 But I do think that they're definitely more drafting behind DeSantis right now.

01:57:53.500 They're not necessarily Trump fans.

01:57:54.860 And yeah, of course, you haven't won them over so far.

01:57:57.900 Yeah, DeSantis loves that.

01:57:58.920 I mean, he's we could talk about DeSantis separately.

01:58:01.040 That's beside the point.

01:58:02.140 Well, let's let's do that.

01:58:03.240 Let's talk about him because he was in the news yesterday.

01:58:05.380 Yeah, go ahead.

01:58:05.820 Just to finish this.

01:58:06.820 The most funny part about that is I think that you quoted the price of the books, a book

01:58:10.300 for twenty seven.

01:58:10.900 I know if you think I'm making money off books, that tells you exactly or that you're

01:58:16.860 making my money.

01:58:17.840 I do want to say, can I just say this analysis?

01:58:20.260 So you've never told me how much you're worth.

01:58:21.580 But there are definitely reports that it starts with a B.

01:58:24.920 And I will say in our own past history, without really even knowing each other, more than

01:58:30.920 once, Vivek through other people has reached out to me to help people who have come on this

01:58:35.240 show who have been canceled or hurt by cancel culture or had their their lives ruined doing

01:58:40.780 I'm not even going to embarrass you by telling the stories, but extraordinary acts of kindness

01:58:45.080 for these people who are in trouble.

01:58:46.520 So I know it's not about money for you.

01:58:48.540 I know that it is a heartfelt situation for you.

01:58:50.960 So, you know, and I'll tell Charlie that when I talk to him.

01:58:52.960 OK, yeah, that's OK.

01:58:54.240 Yeah.

01:58:54.600 Well, we can spend a minute on DeSantis.

01:58:56.680 Yeah, sure.

01:58:57.320 There was this he's going to lie.

01:58:58.400 He's going to he'll learn to love.

01:58:59.900 Trust me.

01:59:01.500 The DeSantis was in the news yesterday for this kind of weird exchange.

01:59:04.520 And I don't totally understand what happened with it.

01:59:06.640 But he looked a little deer in the headlights.

01:59:08.980 It's more of a clip for you, too.

01:59:10.380 So our listening audience, try to use your imagination to picture him kind of blinking and looking

01:59:14.240 a little off when he was asked in Japan about I think it was Trump's criticisms.

01:59:19.900 Here's here's a bit.

01:59:20.760 SOT 11.

01:59:22.600 Governor, I'll show you falling behind Trump.

01:59:25.160 Any thoughts on that?

01:59:26.480 Guys, I'm not I'm not a candidate.

01:59:28.480 So we'll see if and when that changes.

01:59:32.300 The polls show you falling behind Trump.

01:59:34.340 So what's your response?

01:59:35.200 And he just very sort of weird moment with the facial expression.

01:59:39.180 What do you what?

01:59:39.980 What do you think is going on in that?

01:59:40.820 Because it went totally viral yesterday.

01:59:43.020 I think there's a lot of insecurity.

01:59:44.720 I mean, look, I actually shared a stage with Ron DeSantis once at an event.

01:59:48.680 You know, we both spoke.

01:59:49.660 I was on my Woke Inc. book tour.

01:59:50.960 He was the main speaker.

01:59:51.840 People came to hear him, not me.

01:59:53.460 But I was also on that stage.

01:59:54.900 And, you know, I got a standing ovation.

01:59:56.420 He got a more muted response.

01:59:58.160 He left and stormed off stage.

01:59:59.620 He was supposed to stay for the dinner.

02:00:00.840 He didn't.

02:00:01.300 And I got coached afterwards.

02:00:02.740 Be careful not to upstage him again.

02:00:04.880 It's the kind of thing that you look.

02:00:06.300 I think he's been quite a good governor, actually.

02:00:08.700 Look, I think Kristi Noem did a fantastic job on COVID.

02:00:10.940 I think Ron DeSantis followed her lead, did a great job, too.

02:00:13.940 He's somebody who actually does a good job of following other people's great ideas and

02:00:19.040 executing them.

02:00:19.740 And that's not a criticism.

02:00:20.800 That's a compliment, actually, to be able to see other people's great ideas.

02:00:25.460 You don't have to be the visionary.

02:00:26.400 You can be the executor.

02:00:27.320 I think that's part of what's made him a successful governor.

02:00:29.160 I think that we live in a moment in American history now, though, where we need not only

02:00:34.060 somebody who can execute, but somebody who can actually be a visionary in the White House.

02:00:38.260 Because we have an entire generation that needs to be inspired around what it means to

02:00:43.380 be American.

02:00:44.260 And I think if you're the guy who's going to say, I'm not going to talk to NBC News because

02:00:47.500 they're not nice to me, I go toe-to-toe with Chuck Todd.

02:00:50.520 I've done it just like I did with Don Lemon.

02:00:52.480 I have no problem with that.

02:00:53.360 I won't go to a college campus because the script isn't set about what kinds of questions you're

02:00:57.740 going to get, won't tell you whether you got the second COVID shot or not.

02:01:01.560 I think you're not suited to sit across the table from Xi Jinping, actually, with a spine

02:01:06.280 and represent American interests at the top job.

02:01:09.780 And so I think that a big part of this is he's doing a fine job, a great job, I would

02:01:13.540 say, where he is.

02:01:14.660 We require many foot soldiers in this national revival.

02:01:17.820 Governors are important to do this at the state level.

02:01:20.640 But when you have the combination of thin skin without actually having real vision of your

02:01:25.220 own, I think that that actually just falls a little bit short of what we need in this

02:01:29.560 country.

02:01:30.160 And very honestly, Megan, I tried to squint and see every way from Sunday to really get

02:01:35.060 excited about, you know, maybe this is a guy I can get behind because there's easier ways

02:01:39.240 to do this than to spend gobs of our family's money and the time and the sacrifices we make

02:01:43.960 traveling across this country.

02:01:45.920 Life was good, starting businesses and writing books, raising a three-year-old and a 10-month-old.

02:01:50.040 But when I see that vacuum, I don't think Ron DeSantis is going to be anything close to

02:01:56.140 a Ronald Reagan leading a national revival.

02:01:59.120 I think he could be a good troll of the left. 0.59

02:02:01.200 I think he's an excellent troll of the left at times. 0.81

02:02:03.280 But I think when we're looking for a leader of a nation that's going through a national

02:02:06.760 identity crisis, that just ain't it.

02:02:09.160 And I think that when we're thinking about putting the country first, we can't have somebody

02:02:13.080 whose ego needs to be massaged and thin skin need to be managed because the world, it's 0.90

02:02:17.440 it's the rule of the jungle on the global stage, which Xi Jinping or otherwise, I think

02:02:21.420 we need someone with an actual spine.

02:02:23.320 Some of these plans are outlined in capitalist punishment.

02:02:26.380 And the way the what I love about the way Vivek writes is it's very easy to understand.

02:02:29.700 He makes it like clear for people like me who don't have a lot of time to pour over

02:02:32.660 the book at night and we're tired.

02:02:34.020 And so he is he's very pithy, but his ideas come across very clear.

02:02:37.420 And you can learn a lot about what's happening with this ESG nonsense and his plan to stop it.

02:02:41.660 But in the time we have left, I've got to ask you about Tucker Carlson, because now there

02:02:44.720 are jokes going around that you are like the Grim Reaper.

02:02:47.480 You were set to go on Tucker's show last night.

02:02:49.340 You were on Don Lemon's show last week.

02:02:51.680 And you did.

02:02:53.000 You didn't know Tucker was going to get fired, but you did go on last night.

02:02:56.000 So how how did it go?

02:02:58.000 And was that uncomfortable for you?

02:02:59.740 It's it wasn't Kilmeade's.

02:03:01.280 Here's the here's the the meme Don Lemon.

02:03:04.060 It's like Don Lemon with the door and blood coming out.

02:03:05.960 Tucker Carlson with door open and blood coming out.

02:03:08.080 And then there's Vivek as the Grim Reaper knocking on the third door.

02:03:11.680 Who's behind the third door?

02:03:12.740 Joey Reed.

02:03:13.280 Who's there?

02:03:15.000 I think that I think that that was true for Don Lemon.

02:03:18.300 Tucker's a friend.

02:03:19.040 Look, I respect the heck out of the guy, Megan, because the thing I respect most about him

02:03:23.360 is he's willing to buck any orthodoxy, even in the GOP.

02:03:27.800 I was just watching.

02:03:28.760 I don't watch the shows.

02:03:29.760 I don't watch TV super often, but I happen to be watching it last week.

02:03:32.640 And there's someone from PETA that was on the show.

02:03:34.920 I respect that, right?

02:03:36.480 There's somebody who he disagrees with on a lot of things, but there's something he found common

02:03:40.000 cause and agreement with.

02:03:41.340 He was talking about the cancellation or even the political arrest of some black nationalists

02:03:45.060 who he surely does not agree with on a lot, but was saying, you know, it's interesting

02:03:49.080 how the left used to be the party that said, the movement that said, I will defend to the

02:03:53.540 death your right to say it, even if I disagree with you.

02:03:56.040 I think Tucker Carlson is probably one of the best embodiments of that in America today.

02:04:00.820 And so, look, I think he's a friend, but at the end of the day, I don't know what went

02:04:05.020 down there.

02:04:06.020 I do think that whatever it's going to be that he does next, I mean, there were some people

02:04:10.000 were asking me yesterday if I thought he should enter the presidential race.

02:04:13.040 I said, that's a decision for, I can tell you from first personal experience, you should

02:04:16.800 do that only if you are called to actually do it.

02:04:20.040 But yeah, but my point is whatever he does, I'm sure he's going to have a continued positive

02:04:25.100 impact on the discourse of the country.

02:04:27.300 In the meantime, I think that we're going to each have to continue speaking truth.

02:04:30.600 And I had a good conversation with Brian yesterday about why I think the, you know, the 2024

02:04:35.380 election is teed up for success if we step up and capture it.

02:04:38.740 But you raised such a good point on the left's old message.

02:04:40.800 I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.

02:04:43.660 Contrast that with AOC.

02:04:46.000 Deplatforming works.

02:04:47.500 I mean, my God, what a shift on the left.

02:04:50.220 That's why it's important to have voices like yours out there.

02:04:52.060 Vivek, thank you.

02:04:52.920 Thanks for the book.

02:04:53.620 Thanks for coming on.

02:04:54.400 Again, the new book is called Capitalist Punishment.

02:04:58.480 It's out today.

02:04:59.220 If it's anything like Vivek's other books, it's going to be a bestseller and well worth

02:05:02.920 your time.

02:05:03.620 Great to see you, my friend.

02:05:05.320 Thank you, Megan.

02:05:05.900 Appreciate it.

02:05:09.220 Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show.

02:05:11.100 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - April 25, 2023

Tucker and Lemon Firing Fallout, and Dark Brandon Returns, with Victor Davis Hanson, Emily Jashinsky, Michael Moynihan, and Vivek Ramaswamy ｜ Ep. 536

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript