The Megyn Kelly Show - Tucker Carlson on Michelle Obama, Newsom and AOC, and Fentanyl Crisis in America, with Billy Baldwin and Dr. Robert Marbut

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00:00:31.000 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:42.360 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:45.820 Today, officially marking President Trump's 100th day in office.

00:00:51.000 What a whirlwind.

00:00:51.960 The White House is branding it 100 days of promises made, promises kept,

00:00:56.780 with the President's biggest accomplishments centered on immigration.

00:01:00.000 And the border, and how.

00:01:03.140 Also, Michelle Obama is once again out there whining about what a victim she is.

00:01:10.480 This time, she's trying to suggest that her daughters could be arrested in the middle of the night

00:01:15.100 and deported along with some random illegals.

00:01:18.560 At least, that's how I read her comments.

00:01:20.320 That seems like as good a place as any to kick off the show, as we're joined today by Tucker Carlson.

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00:01:59.440 Great to see you, Tucker. How are you?

00:02:02.980 You're making me laugh, Megan.

00:02:04.920 I hadn't read that.

00:02:06.020 It's unbelievable.

00:02:06.240 I'm grateful to be here.

00:02:07.780 Michelle Obama, you go to Princeton for free, and you're just—

00:02:12.120 By the way, I can't imagine that she qualified on the merits to go to Princeton.

00:02:16.900 But you have everything handed to you for free, and you're just enraged at the country?

00:02:22.140 There's a deep lesson here, actually.

00:02:24.420 Yes.

00:02:25.300 Let me play the soundbite, because it's even worse than you're imagining.

00:02:28.780 Like, yeah, she went on this guy Jay Shetty's podcast, and he asked her something about her greatest fear as of late, and here's what she said.

00:02:37.120 This current climate for me, it's, you know, what's happening to immigrants.

00:02:42.820 You know, so it's not the fear for myself anymore.

00:02:46.560 I drive around in a four-car motorcade with a police escort.

00:02:50.600 I'm Michelle Obama.

00:02:52.400 I do still worry about my daughters in the world, even though they are somewhat recognizable.

00:02:57.180 So my fears are for what I know is happening out there in streets all over the city.

00:03:03.620 And now that we have leadership that is sort of indiscriminately determining who belongs and who doesn't, and we know that those decisions aren't being made with courts and with due process and, you know, that it's being made like this cop that pulled my brother over when he was 12.

00:03:22.780 You don't look like somebody that belongs, you know, I can determine just by looking at you that you're, you know, you're a good person or you're not a good person.

00:03:34.960 And knowing that there's so much bias and so much racism and so much ignorance that fuels those kind of choices, I worry for people of color all over this country.

00:03:47.080 And I don't know that we will have the advocates to protect everybody.

00:03:52.140 And that makes me, that frightens me.

00:03:55.700 It keeps me up at night.

00:03:57.780 How do you feel comfortable going to work, going to school, when you know that there could be people out here judging you and who could upend your life in a second?

00:04:08.320 Um, that, you know, that, that, that's who I worry for right now.

00:04:16.040 There's so much in there, Tucker.

00:04:17.560 I'll let you take a swing at it first.

00:04:19.740 Well, I mean, my first response is it feels so antique.

00:04:23.680 It feels so 2017.

00:04:26.340 It's like literally nobody cares.

00:04:28.760 Nobody cares at all.

00:04:29.980 All of those talking point people of color under attack.

00:04:32.900 No, they're not.

00:04:33.500 They're coming here by the millions because this is the safest country for everybody, no matter what your color is, um, or it was in any case.

00:04:41.360 Um, so like, that's just so old fashioned.

00:04:46.240 I mean, it's really like you expect her to say, let me fax you my thoughts on this because it's just like, she's so out of it.

00:04:52.660 The second thing, um, is that like, we always beat up on, you know, rich white ladies because they're the most disruptive force in America.

00:04:59.840 But that's unfair.

00:05:00.920 It's not, it's not about color.

00:05:02.620 It's, there's something about the people with the most, um, in our country.

00:05:07.740 That's really poisonous.

00:05:08.660 They're the unhappiest or the most restless.

00:05:10.800 They're the most self-involved.

00:05:12.580 Um, they're the least generous.

00:05:14.360 They're the most annoying.

00:05:15.220 And, and it's not just a gender thing.

00:05:17.060 It's men too.

00:05:17.880 But there's something about America at this moment where the unhappiest people are also the most privileged.

00:05:24.600 And I think it does tell you something deep about accumulating money or worshiping money.

00:05:28.460 It like doesn't fill the empty space at all.

00:05:31.080 It doesn't, you know, Larry Fink is a miserable person in real life despite having billions of dollars.

00:05:36.200 And of course, you know, personally, and I do too, a lot of deeply unhappy billionaires, way more unhappy than the guy fixing your air conditioning.

00:05:43.940 So there is like, it's, it's, it's a theological principle that I think is worth saying out loud.

00:05:49.960 Worshiping money, worshiping power, organizing your life so you get more of both does not give you peace or happiness.

00:05:58.180 In fact, it seems to produce the opposite people like Michelle Obama, who's drowning in Lake Mead.

00:06:05.100 I mean, Michelle Obama is literally going down for the third time into this pool of self-involvement.

00:06:10.720 And you just, you don't think she's going to come up again.

00:06:13.240 Like she's dying of affluence, privilege, and self-obsession, obviously.

00:06:19.260 Everything she says is negative.

00:06:22.860 We've been watching clips from her podcast over the past couple of weeks.

00:06:27.200 Everything she says is negative.

00:06:29.080 I mean, you would never know you are hearing from a woman who is first lady for eight years, has become probably a billionaire by this point, is out on David Geffen's yacht every other summer.

00:06:40.900 Her estate in Martha's Vineyard, her daughters who went to these Tony schools.

00:06:45.240 You would think you were listening to somebody basically like the wife of a George Floyd.

00:06:50.760 And she's never gotten over whatever grievance she had growing up.

00:06:56.020 I love how the soundbite begins.

00:06:57.920 Okay, it's not to fear for myself.

00:07:00.140 I drive around in a four-car motorcade with a police escort.

00:07:03.980 I'm Michelle Obama.

00:07:06.440 Unbelievable, right?

00:07:07.840 Who talks about themselves that way?

00:07:09.780 Even if you are Michelle Obama.

00:07:11.800 Barack Obama doesn't talk about himself that way.

00:07:14.060 It's just like the hubris.

00:07:15.820 And then this is the part that jumped out to me more than any other.

00:07:18.520 I do still worry about my daughters in the world, even though they are somewhat recognizable.

00:07:25.620 In other words, she's worried that as mixed-race girls, they're going to get picked up like Kilmar Abrego Garcia, an MS-13 gang member, and whisked off to El Salvador.

00:07:37.480 That is what she's saying, Tucker.

00:07:39.760 And you know what?

00:07:40.580 I think she is lying there at night thinking that.

00:07:43.140 That's what she thinks of America.

00:07:44.800 Of course she is.

00:07:46.020 Of course.

00:07:47.120 But she's just so miserable, and it's obvious, and always has been.

00:07:51.280 And I do think maybe another – so you look at something like that, and you're like, okay, what are the lessons for me?

00:07:55.620 You look at other people's lives, and they either go up or down.

00:07:58.480 They succeed or they fail, and you try to take important lessons for yourself in your own life.

00:08:02.480 And one of the lessons that I've always thought Michelle Obama's life presented to the rest of us is take some time to focus on your marriage.

00:08:09.360 If you're happy in your marriage, you know, you can feel it, you can smell it, you know, you're emanating a kind of peace, a tranquility, you know, you're going home to a spiritual fortress, you know what I mean, with your spouse.

00:08:21.140 And people who have deeply unhappy marriages and all of it – you know, everyone's been through periods of unhappiness, and you know there's nothing more destabilizing than that.

00:08:30.420 And you do feel like for the grasping, climbing, you know, acquiring class, of which she's a charter member, like there's no time to focus on this one person in your own home or maybe even your own children.

00:08:43.240 Like they're all about, you know, I want to deal with Netflix, and I want a Kennedy Center Honors Award, and me, me, me, me, me, me, me.

00:08:49.960 And they sort of miss the point, which is in a normal life, your marriage is the core of everything.

00:08:56.900 A happy marriage produces happy people and happy children.

00:08:59.300 And I just don't think she spent a lot of time on that.

00:09:02.160 I mean, she really dislikes her husband.

00:09:04.520 Super obvious.

00:09:05.440 I'm not just saying that to be catty.

00:09:06.740 I feel – I think I'm trying to feel compassion for her, but her hostility toward the guy is like unbelievable.

00:09:12.560 And it's been obvious since –

00:09:12.960 Everything she says is negative.

00:09:15.260 About him, for sure.

00:09:16.360 How long have we known each other?

00:09:17.880 I can't even think of one negative comment you've ever made about Susie.

00:09:21.860 I almost never say negative things about Doug.

00:09:24.400 Yeah, exactly.

00:09:25.280 It's not like they're perfect.

00:09:26.020 It's just like when I think about him, I don't immediately go to whatever is negative.

00:09:29.980 I go to what's positive and what I love about him, and there's a ton.

00:09:32.220 Well, actually, last time I saw you, you said – you were off camera telling me how great Doug is.

00:09:39.060 I mean, that's just a fact.

00:09:39.780 I remember it really vividly.

00:09:41.180 In fact, I told my wife about it.

00:09:42.340 No, that's – those are the markers of actual success.

00:09:47.120 Is your marriage happy?

00:09:48.500 Are your children thriving?

00:09:50.140 Are your relationships solid, like the people around you in your orbit?

00:09:54.000 And you feel like in her case, boy, the answer is no, but it's not just her.

00:09:58.300 I mean, she's like a freak show, and it's easy to make fun of her, and I enjoy it.

00:10:02.400 But I do think it's a whole class of people who are afflicted with the same kind of restlessness and rage and emptiness, and they're the ones wrecking our society.

00:10:13.020 It's not the people at the bottom.

00:10:14.220 It's the people at the top, and they have gone way off the rails, and she's like a perfect example of it, in my opinion.

00:10:20.680 Well, you know, this is a good lead into Governor Pritzker of Illinois.

00:10:26.780 I mean, talk about excesses, right?

00:10:29.700 All the seven sins are walking all over him.

00:10:33.540 You just take a look at him.

00:10:34.760 It's like you can see multiple of them.

00:10:37.460 And he's out there now.

00:10:38.560 I mean, I guess he fancies himself a contender for 28 and has decided to ratchet up the rhetoric.

00:10:43.900 It wasn't enough for him to try to trans all of our children, he and his weird family.

00:10:47.180 But this is his latest messaging as he went through New Hampshire this past Sunday.

00:10:53.900 Stop 12.

00:10:56.060 Never before in my life have I called for mass protests, for mobilization, for disruption.

00:11:03.400 But I am now.

00:11:17.180 I mean, he's looking at us like we're a couple of Twinkies.

00:11:42.300 I'm afraid.

00:11:44.420 Yeah, I mean, sorry, it took me a second.

00:11:49.580 I mean, there's a guy, there's another man in misery, you know what I mean?

00:11:53.800 An inherited money person who has never achieved anything and who is inflicting his own personal torment on the rest of us.

00:12:01.400 But he says, I've never called for disruption.

00:12:03.260 It does raise the other question I always have about the people running everything, which is what have you built?

00:12:07.700 What have you created?

00:12:08.780 What have you improved?

00:12:09.780 I mean, it is a binary.

00:12:11.500 We're either in, you know, this life on this planet making things better or making them worse, building or destroying.

00:12:16.780 What have you done for the state of Illinois, which is bankrupt?

00:12:20.480 There's been an exodus of normal people, people with jobs, people with families.

00:12:24.560 They're on the west coast of Florida right now.

00:12:26.540 Like that state is wrecked.

00:12:28.180 It's not all his fault, of course.

00:12:29.720 But why don't you tell me three things you've done to improve Illinois?

00:12:32.280 There aren't any.

00:12:32.920 So for him to say, I've never called for disruption before, it's like, that's actually all you've done.

00:12:37.740 All you've done is advocated for the destruction of children and families for the transing stuff through advocate for the destruction of your state through, you know, your total mismanage of it.

00:12:47.860 It's like, how could someone like that or Gavin Newsom or anyone else with a track record, an unbroken record of destruction with a straight face say, hey, give me a bigger job?

00:12:57.280 Like, I just think the whole thing is deranged.

00:12:59.340 We should hire on the basis of achievement.

00:13:01.140 We should reward people on the basis of achievement across the board, whether it's getting into Princeton, whether it's becoming president.

00:13:08.180 Like, if you have no record of achievement, I'm sorry, we're not going to consider you, period.

00:13:14.240 What do you make of what Gavin Newsom is doing right now with this podcast?

00:13:18.340 Because I've said I don't I'm against conservatives going on his podcast because I think it's helping him train for 2028.

00:13:26.660 I don't think we should help him.

00:13:27.820 I agree.

00:13:28.540 I agree completely.

00:13:29.660 I didn't think that I know.

00:13:30.820 Obviously, I know Gavin Newsom.

00:13:32.780 I text with him occasionally.

00:13:34.900 I am from the state of California.

00:13:36.840 I'm from originally San Francisco.

00:13:38.820 So I have relatives who know him.

00:13:40.180 And, you know, so I'm I've been with Gavin Newsom for a long time.

00:13:43.780 I know his ex-wife.

00:13:45.680 And I was have been bothering him for years.

00:13:48.040 Like, you should come on my show.

00:13:49.480 And he was kind of open to it.

00:13:51.100 And then he whips around.

00:13:51.780 He's like, no, you should come on mine.

00:13:52.760 I was like, oh, I would love to because I would love to debate him about what he's done to my state.

00:13:56.440 And then I watched a parade of people go on, some of whom are good friends of mine, by the way, conservatives go on a show.

00:14:03.460 And I realized and I'm not attacking them at all.

00:14:07.020 I almost did.

00:14:07.780 But then I realized, oh, wait a second.

00:14:09.880 This is like this is not the point of this is not to have a real conversation or to answer questions.

00:14:16.440 The point of this is to rehabilitate.

00:14:17.960 And I would say of Gavin, like he's legit smart.

00:14:21.400 I don't think there's anything at all at the core other than misery, another deeply, deeply unhappy person who, you know, we should be rooting for him to get his life together.

00:14:31.440 But someone who kind of externalizes everything, you know, there's nothing at the center.

00:14:35.780 And so everything is about the public display, a truly wounded, screwed up person, like on a very deep level, not joking, but also a talented person who will say anything, which in politics is an advantage.

00:14:48.400 If you will just if you're willing to say anything, I mean, there's things that you will not say many of them because you don't believe them.

00:14:53.760 And maybe, you know, I'll speak for myself, like there's sometimes where I've got strong views on something and I'm like, you know, you should just shut up and keep that to yourself because you will just alienate everybody.

00:15:02.680 And like, you don't need to express everything that you think.

00:15:04.640 I tell myself that a lot because I have some views that are super unpopular.

00:15:07.660 OK, but I will never say something that I don't believe.

00:15:11.640 That's got to be the line.

00:15:13.160 But there's no line at all with him, like none.

00:15:16.780 And so, wow, it's kind of hard.

00:15:18.900 It's kind of hard.

00:15:19.720 You'd be like, you know, Gavin Newsom, you just robbed a liquor store.

00:15:22.600 He's standing with a gun in his hand, you know, a fistful of 20s.

00:15:25.420 And he's like, no, I didn't.

00:15:26.680 You did.

00:15:27.420 And you're like, what?

00:15:30.520 It's postmodern.

00:15:31.820 It's very hard to debate someone like that.

00:15:34.600 You know, you know what I mean?

00:15:36.240 So you don't see him as the Dems great white hope from California for 2028.

00:15:41.540 He's pretty white.

00:15:42.760 I mean, it's the anti-white party.

00:15:44.620 Like they hate white people.

00:15:46.720 They've been systematically disenfranchising white people from the country they were born in.

00:15:51.860 They say that out loud.

00:15:52.980 That's what diversity is.

00:15:53.880 It's everybody but white men.

00:15:55.680 So I'm not whining about it.

00:15:57.000 I'm just noticing that.

00:15:58.820 Much more comprehensive than Jim Crow ever was.

00:16:01.560 And so for the party that did that, that set up this Jim Crow system, anti-white system,

00:16:06.260 to nominate another white guy, I mean, maybe.

00:16:09.220 But I think they'd be much happier with AOC.

00:16:13.220 I don't take her that seriously.

00:16:16.480 I'm not really sure what I think.

00:16:18.100 I think what is likely to happen, yeah.

00:16:21.380 Someone's going to come out of nowhere who's got native talent.

00:16:24.880 I continue to believe even in the Democratic Party, you have to have talent to succeed.

00:16:29.720 I felt that Bernie Sanders had a lot of talent.

00:16:31.800 I don't agree with him, of course, but I did think he had a lot of talent.

00:16:35.100 And then it turned out he was a fraud also.

00:16:37.380 But someone like Bernie Sanders, I think populist economics is very popular, actually.

00:16:42.440 Conservatives don't want to admit it, but it is popular.

00:16:44.500 So someone who comes out and attacks the credit card companies, attacks the endless war,

00:16:49.640 basically does kind of trump on the left, that person could easily get elected.

00:16:55.180 I don't think the race stuff has a future.

00:16:58.360 Well, the problem with AOC is there is a kind of unseriousness about her.

00:17:04.320 I think she's an amazing performer.

00:17:06.200 I think she's attractive.

00:17:07.800 I think she's different.

00:17:09.500 I think she's got a ton of talent.

00:17:10.880 I'm actually not criticizing AOC.

00:17:12.540 I'm complimenting her sincerely.

00:17:14.560 But I think she's too much about herself.

00:17:18.260 And I think that it takes enormous self-discipline to get through a presidential campaign.

00:17:23.140 And I don't know that she has that.

00:17:24.920 And I also think the Israel thing is tough.

00:17:27.040 It's tough for anybody running in that party.

00:17:29.740 You know, a lot of rank and file Democrats are genuinely mad about the Gaza thing.

00:17:34.520 Donors obviously are on a different page.

00:17:36.540 So it's a fundamental split in that party.

00:17:39.660 And I'm not exactly sure how that's resolved.

00:17:42.380 And I'm not sure that she can walk that line.

00:17:46.540 And who will be on the opposite side?

00:17:48.240 Will it be President Trump for a third term?

00:17:50.060 Because he hasn't totally ruled it out.

00:17:52.840 Even with his interview he just gave to The Atlantic, he said,

00:17:55.920 oh, you know, that would be a norm shattering.

00:17:57.940 But maybe I'm about the shattering.

00:17:59.680 He seems to just be toying with people on this.

00:18:01.720 But I think we both think it's probably going to be J.D., don't you think?

00:18:08.400 Well, I would say with some certainty.

00:18:11.360 As of today, I mean, boy, things are so dynamic.

00:18:14.100 It's like hard even to know where things are going a lot of the time.

00:18:17.280 But, you know, if the Republican Party still has standing in the eyes of voters,

00:18:22.100 and I think it will a couple of years from now, J.D. is the obvious.

00:18:27.000 I mean, he's the most articulate explainer, I think, of Donald Trump's ideas.

00:18:32.260 He's the most powerful and effective vice president in my lifetime, for sure.

00:18:38.940 And he has managed to do that while remaining completely loyal on the same page as Donald Trump,

00:18:44.980 not undermining him.

00:18:46.120 I mean, that's always the tension between president and vice president.

00:18:49.280 You know, the vice president has his own aspirations,

00:18:51.880 and so he's sort of subtly undermining the president.

00:18:54.680 That has not happened at all, and I don't expect that it will.

00:18:58.580 So, yeah, I mean, I think J.D. is the obvious.

00:19:01.380 I mean, it's certainly not going to be Nikki Haley.

00:19:02.920 Like, let's be real.

00:19:03.800 Right.

00:19:04.460 That was tried and failed.

00:19:05.660 What did you think of the—I haven't spoken to you publicly since then,

00:19:08.780 but what did you think of the scene with J.D. and Trump and Zelensky in the Oval?

00:19:15.040 Well, I thought it was amazing.

00:19:16.860 I thought it was amazing.

00:19:18.040 I mean, I'm frustrated because I think that Zelensky is an enemy of the United States,

00:19:21.520 and I think his government has tried to assassinate a number of people.

00:19:26.300 I don't think that I know that, including some people who are well-known on the conservative side.

00:19:32.380 So I think it's a really, really dark government.

00:19:35.180 It's banned the largest Christian denomination in Ukraine

00:19:38.440 that has sold a lot of the weapons that we have sent them to all kinds of dark groups,

00:19:43.800 including Hamas and the Mexican drug cartels.

00:19:45.820 Like, I think it's an outlawed government that does not represent Ukrainians.

00:19:48.860 He's not an elected president. He has no—he has no moral claim to run that country at all.

00:19:54.580 So, you know, I'm always a little distressed when he's treated as a legitimate president, which he's not.

00:19:59.860 But, you know, that said, he was in the Oval.

00:20:02.520 Like, that was not—you know, I didn't have any control over any of that.

00:20:05.180 I didn't want to be in the Oval in the first place.

00:20:06.620 Like, hey, why don't you stand for election?

00:20:08.380 And when you win, then we'll treat you like a head of state.

00:20:10.600 But you're not a head of state because he's not.

00:20:12.340 So that's my personal view.

00:20:13.860 But given that, I was thrilled to see Donald Trump.

00:20:18.560 I think that was genuine peak.

00:20:20.240 Like, we just sent you billions and billions of dollars.

00:20:22.400 You stole a lot of it.

00:20:23.540 How many houses do you have, Zelensky, by the way?

00:20:25.480 Do you have a house in Miami?

00:20:26.760 Do you have one in France?

00:20:28.100 Like, what—you know, let's actually do an audit of your personal finances

00:20:31.940 and of Budinov and all the people around you, and, like, let's find out where the money went.

00:20:35.840 That's never been done.

00:20:36.660 It's never going to be done because a lot of Americans have gotten rich from it, too.

00:20:39.820 As I know you know, it's a money laundering scheme.

00:20:41.700 But with that all in mind, and, of course, the president knows all that,

00:20:44.920 for Zelensky to be like, well, you owe me more money or else big problems for you.

00:20:49.240 I mean, I think that just exploded Trump's brain.

00:20:52.620 Like, I think he was genuinely outraged.

00:20:55.560 How dare this guy talk to me?

00:20:57.600 This, you know, dictator of a client state talk to me that way.

00:21:01.940 So, you know, I hope that U.S. policymakers will keep that in mind going forward.

00:21:08.200 This guy is not our ally at all.

00:21:09.600 He's trashing the United States constantly, constantly, trying to split Europe from the United States.

00:21:15.320 Oh, my gosh.

00:21:16.080 And there are so many people in the national security state who are so vested in this

00:21:20.540 and who've gotten rich from it that they won't admit it.

00:21:23.360 And the whole system is, like, on autopilot.

00:21:25.320 Like, Zelensky runs Ukraine.

00:21:26.720 Ukraine is our ally.

00:21:28.200 Russia is our enemy.

00:21:29.020 It's like, what?

00:21:30.260 We just waged a three and a half year war against Russia without congressional approval.

00:21:34.300 The United States has been fighting a war, as we speak, is fighting a war against Russia.

00:21:38.280 Yes.

00:21:38.560 No American voted for this.

00:21:40.120 Most Americans don't want it or can be like, why are we fighting Russia again?

00:21:43.240 Why are they our enemy?

00:21:44.280 Because a small group of people hates Russia for reasons that they never say out loud.

00:21:48.180 That has a lot to do with the reemergence of Christianity in Russia.

00:21:51.400 They hate that.

00:21:52.040 And they've roped the rest of us with our tax dollars into supporting this war that we lost.

00:21:59.140 We lost the war.

00:22:00.500 And we degraded U.S. authority and military power in the process.

00:22:04.640 We pushed Russia into a permanent alliance with China.

00:22:08.600 It's been a disaster for the United States.

00:22:10.600 And nobody has admitted that, said that out loud.

00:22:12.760 And they haven't even changed course.

00:22:14.380 And so it's extremely frustrating to watch.

00:22:17.620 So what do you think is going to happen now?

00:22:19.520 Trump's, his messaging just this week and Marco Rubio's messaging this week has changed

00:22:23.440 to be a little bit more, they're still kind of hopeful, but they sound somewhat exasperated.

00:22:29.700 Like, look, we're not in this for much longer.

00:22:32.460 If you guys can't work this out, we're out.

00:22:34.160 This is your conflict, which basically means Ukraine's effed because we know the Europeans

00:22:38.080 won't step up in the way the United States did.

00:22:40.580 So it's over.

00:22:41.400 I mean, it's, I think it's really playing the Trump card on Ukraine.

00:22:44.180 Like, you will take the deal under the terms we've said are acceptable, or you're on your

00:22:48.520 own, which means your loss, which has already happened, will be official, pronounced, and

00:22:53.780 actually could get even worse.

00:22:56.760 I mean, I think it's really dangerous to do it this way.

00:23:00.540 I think we should have cut off Ukraine day one, forced a settlement of our choosing in

00:23:04.420 conjunction with the Russians who won.

00:23:06.140 So in the end, let's be totally honest, the winner sets the terms.

00:23:08.980 Like, that's just a fact.

00:23:09.760 We could try and guide those terms, but we're not in a position of absolute authority in

00:23:14.120 Eastern Europe right now.

00:23:14.920 It's just a fact.

00:23:15.640 I wish we were, but we're not.

00:23:17.400 So, but I do think the longer this goes on, the higher the incentive for Zelensky and the

00:23:21.940 people around him to drag the rest of the world into this, to commit some serious atrocity

00:23:27.260 in Moscow.

00:23:28.300 And by the way, I was there, I saw with my own eyes, they sent a drone in and attacked

00:23:33.440 the Kremlin.

00:23:34.540 And of course, the Russians didn't want to admit that because they don't want to admit that

00:23:38.100 their capital city is vulnerable to attack.

00:23:40.260 But that's a fact.

00:23:40.980 I saw it on fire.

00:23:42.440 And every Russian I asked denied that it was happening.

00:23:44.740 I was like, wait, there's a look at that.

00:23:46.480 But that was Ukrainian drone.

00:23:47.960 And there've been a bunch of them.

00:23:49.220 And those are American drones.

00:23:51.640 So the United States under Joe Biden attacked the Russian capital.

00:23:55.620 Like, this is so crazy.

00:23:57.140 And the Russians for their own, who are not always honest about things to be on, you know,

00:24:01.240 to be clear, they have downplayed that because there are a bunch of different complicated

00:24:06.820 reasons.

00:24:07.440 But that's all true.

00:24:09.020 And so the Zelensky government has incentive to do more of that.

00:24:13.080 And you could really see this thing getting completely out of control.

00:24:16.160 And like, why wouldn't China, North Korea has already sent troops onto the battlefield

00:24:20.040 in Ukraine.

00:24:20.720 Why wouldn't China do that?

00:24:22.200 So you could have a scenario where the United States American advisors, we have a million

00:24:27.540 Americans fighting in that war, as you know, if they lie about it, but it's true, they're

00:24:30.780 in Ukraine fighting.

00:24:32.660 And European troops, NATO troops and Ukrainian troops are fighting Chinese troops.

00:24:38.040 Well, you know, this could get out of control super fast.

00:24:40.960 Everyone thinks, oh, I know how this is going to go.

00:24:43.080 And like, this is what's going to happen.

00:24:44.980 Like some Rube Goldberg set up.

00:24:46.620 And then this is going to happen.

00:24:47.520 That'll happen.

00:24:47.940 It's like, dude, you have no idea what's going to happen.

00:24:50.340 You don't know what you're having for dinner tonight.

00:24:51.760 The future is not under our control at all.

00:24:54.500 And so anyone who tells you like, here's how it's going to go is a liar or dumb.

00:24:59.320 These are dynamic situations and they could go in a crazy, unanticipated direction.

00:25:04.640 If there's one lesson of history, it's that.

00:25:06.480 So you want to shut down the fighting as fast as you can.

00:25:09.980 And I really hope they will.

00:25:12.220 I don't want to put you on the spot, but you did pique my curiosity with the, they've

00:25:16.620 tried to have people assassinated in leadership positions or like, do you mean Trump?

00:25:23.440 Do you mean, are you talking about yourself?

00:25:24.780 I couldn't, I couldn't quite glean what you were intimating on that one.

00:25:27.820 I mean, I would just say that, um, I don't know that they've been responsible, uh, for

00:25:34.980 an assassination attempt on Donald Trump.

00:25:37.080 I can't prove that.

00:25:37.680 I think it's very obvious that the Ukrainians were involved in the attempted assassination

00:25:42.300 on the golf court, golf course in Florida this fall.

00:25:45.240 That guy definitely had some contact with Ukraine for sure.

00:25:48.240 Well, he was in, he was in Ukraine.

00:25:49.880 He was in Ukraine.

00:25:50.880 And he was asking them for members of Congress, ballistic missiles or rocket propelled grenades.

00:25:56.820 Yes, that's exactly right.

00:25:58.480 And I think there are others who were the target.

00:26:01.480 I mean, I know for a fact, there were others who were a target of assassination attempts

00:26:05.980 by the Ukrainian government.

00:26:07.400 And by the way, just to be clear, the Ukrainian government, like the U S government, like every

00:26:10.980 government has factions within it.

00:26:12.720 It doesn't mean if one part of the government does something that everyone, the rest of the

00:26:16.520 government knows it's doing it.

00:26:17.540 I mean, there are, it's complicated.

00:26:19.100 Did the CIA kill Kennedy?

00:26:20.920 No, but it's pretty clear that, you know, James Angleton was aware of it, who worked at CIA.

00:26:27.120 So it's like, it's, it's more complicated.

00:26:29.080 I don't mean to oversimplify anything, but it's, it's a, it's a fact that you elements of the

00:26:35.740 Ukrainian government have tried to assassinate a bunch of people.

00:26:39.160 And so there you go.

00:26:42.120 And I, and I think starting with, with the, with the now president and I, and I'm not

00:26:46.260 exactly sure why we haven't gotten to the bottom of that.

00:26:48.880 Um, I've been, you know, encouraged it on my show.

00:26:51.200 I think, I think we do need to get to the bottom of it.

00:26:53.420 I don't know where that investigation is.

00:26:55.360 I don't know where the Butler Pennsylvania investigation is.

00:26:58.640 I mean, there are so many obvious unanswered questions.

00:27:01.260 We know more about Kilmar Abrego Garcia than we know about that shooter in Butler, Pennsylvania.

00:27:07.140 I know, I know more about Dr. Jill Biden's college career than I, which is like totally

00:27:13.500 useless information, by the way, than I do about two assassination attempts on the now

00:27:18.320 president.

00:27:18.840 So I think it's very strange.

00:27:20.660 I, I'm not withholding something I know.

00:27:22.900 I really don't know why.

00:27:24.340 Um, I do think the president is instinctively opposed to talking about those attempts.

00:27:31.820 I think he thinks it diminishes him or makes him seem like he's complaining or I, I, I don't

00:27:36.920 know exactly what the reason is, but as an American, I think it's fair for the rest of

00:27:42.080 us to ask like, what was that?

00:27:43.780 You can't have a democracy if the, if the head of state lives in fear of assassination,

00:27:48.740 you just, you can't because no one can think clearly or make, you know, wise decisions

00:27:53.720 under the threat of death.

00:27:54.920 So we need to get that, um, settled, I think soon.

00:27:59.240 Well, while we're, while we're on the subject of foreign policy, let's take a, let's take

00:28:02.700 a minute on the Houthis and Iran.

00:28:06.160 Yes.

00:28:06.820 Uh, and that, you know, that's a loud war machine too.

00:28:10.180 I mean, there is definitely a faction of people who would love to see the green light on either

00:28:14.460 us hitting Iran or just backing Israel and it hitting Iran and the Houthis are backed

00:28:19.960 by Iran.

00:28:20.580 So that was playing with fire.

00:28:21.860 I understand why we did it totally, but you know, I, I just wonder, I haven't heard

00:28:25.580 you speak directly to that attack or the language that we've been hearing around Iran, even

00:28:30.020 by the president.

00:28:30.540 Like, I don't want to bomb them.

00:28:32.300 I'd much rather chat, but you know, it's an option, which I know you're against.

00:28:36.480 So can you talk about that a bit?

00:28:38.820 Well, I think, I mean, look, just in an ideal world, I think Iran is a threat to Israel.

00:28:42.960 I think it's a threat to the Gulf States.

00:28:45.860 All six of them were allied with those countries.

00:28:48.200 I think they've been really good partners for us.

00:28:49.880 And so it's on a defense of Iran to ask the question, can we actually do this?

00:28:54.040 I mean, there are all kinds of things that you want to do.

00:28:56.680 The question is, am I capable of doing them?

00:28:59.260 Do I have the power to affect the change I seek?

00:29:02.040 And in the case of Iran, you know, it's not at all clear.

00:29:05.500 What is clear is that any strike on Iran could potentially, because the future as noted is

00:29:10.820 hard to predict, could potentially spin into a much wider, potentially global conflict.

00:29:16.600 But even in the short term, there are massive, massive downsides.

00:29:19.840 So there are, what, six Iranian nuclear facilities that we know about or we talk about in public

00:29:24.520 anyway, and all six of them are on the Gulf, the Arabian Gulf or the Persian Gulf, depending

00:29:28.480 on what side you're on.

00:29:29.280 But they're on the Gulf.

00:29:30.220 Well, the water supply for every country in the region comes from the Gulf through desalinization.

00:29:34.800 So if you blow up a nuclear site and you pollute the Persian Gulf, then you've got six of the

00:29:41.800 richest countries in the world with no water.

00:29:44.380 And at least one of them has thought this through and has been building giant reservoirs

00:29:48.660 for seawater, for drinking water, but they're only a couple of weeks supply.

00:29:52.980 So like the second point you make is that a huge percentage of global energy goes through

00:29:58.380 that piece of water, you know, out through the Straits of Hormuz and then to the West, to

00:30:03.260 Europe and the United States and to the world.

00:30:05.080 And so if you shut that down, you're looking at global oil price, you're looking at $25

00:30:10.560 a gallon gasoline, right?

00:30:12.580 So that's the fastest, most destructive kind of inflation that percolates down through the

00:30:16.940 whole economy because the price of energy determines the price of pretty much everything

00:30:20.820 because energy makes civilization possible.

00:30:23.140 So that's a really big downside.

00:30:25.000 I'm not saying it's not, you know, it's not a question of like, are you happy that Iran

00:30:29.300 might have nukes?

00:30:30.440 I'm not happy that Pakistan has nukes.

00:30:32.660 There are also, there's at least one other country that clearly has nukes that nobody

00:30:35.760 says out loud.

00:30:36.420 I'm not talking about Israel, but there, you know, it's a, it's a more complicated world.

00:30:40.960 Like France has nukes.

00:30:42.700 Is France doing deals with other countries that guarantee nuclear protection for other

00:30:47.860 countries?

00:30:48.540 Probably, you know, so there's proliferation is, is a lot more profound a problem than I

00:30:54.060 think people understand.

00:30:54.980 So, but anyway, no one wants Iran to have nukes.

00:30:57.000 No one in the Gulf does.

00:30:57.940 Israel doesn't.

00:30:58.640 Trump doesn't.

00:30:59.260 I don't.

00:30:59.700 You don't.

00:30:59.980 Nobody wants Iran to have nukes.

00:31:01.040 The question is, how do we stop that?

00:31:04.020 And I don't really think it's about nukes.

00:31:06.140 I think it's about regime change in Iran, that this government is hostile to the West,

00:31:10.620 hostile to Israel primarily, but also to the United States.

00:31:13.320 They are.

00:31:14.140 And we would like a new government there that can be our friend.

00:31:17.000 Now there's a long history in Iran going back to 1954, where the U S government did affect

00:31:23.440 regime change.

00:31:24.860 As you know, in fact, the guy in charge that lived on my street as a kid, former CIA officer,

00:31:29.280 Roosevelt.

00:31:30.500 And that didn't work well.

00:31:33.060 And that got us tonight, the Shah and then to 1979 and then the Islamic Republic ever since.

00:31:36.940 So like we, it's hard to affect regime change in countries you're not from.

00:31:41.660 It's hard to know what the consequences will be.

00:31:43.940 We've tampered in that country extensively.

00:31:45.520 It hasn't worked at all.

00:31:46.520 It's been counterproductive.

00:31:47.600 And that's also true of neighboring countries, Iraq, Syria right now, Libya.

00:31:53.140 I mean, just name the country, like regime change is hard to pull off.

00:31:55.860 Okay.

00:31:56.420 So anyone telling you regime change, and there are a lot of people paid liars in Washington

00:32:00.640 who are telling you that like, oh, well, just regime change.

00:32:04.860 So there's a huge, lots of people hate the religious authorities in Iran.

00:32:07.980 I think that's true.

00:32:08.660 Seems to be true, but that's not the same as, oh, we're going to throw in a pro-Western government

00:32:13.640 and everything's going to be fine.

00:32:14.680 Like, show us where you've done that before.

00:32:16.780 Oh, you've never done it before.

00:32:17.520 No, I've been joking that.

00:32:18.280 In fact, when they talk about regime change in Russia, they think they're going to get

00:32:21.660 Jeb Bartlett in there after Putin.

00:32:23.860 Like, hello.

00:32:25.000 Oh, dude.

00:32:25.780 Oh, dude.

00:32:27.040 The largest country in the world that's 25% Muslim that, you know, Putin is a moderate.

00:32:32.680 Putin is the most pro-Western person I've dealt with in Russia.

00:32:35.820 I mean, I'm just telling you, like, whatever, I'm not defending Putin, though I think you

00:32:39.840 can make a case he's done a great job for Russia.

00:32:41.760 No, but you're making the case you don't know what's coming next.

00:32:44.700 And yeah, look at the terrorism threat from within Russia.

00:32:47.620 I mean, he's clamped down on that just the way you'd want to happen in your country.

00:32:50.960 I think we can say that anybody at a think tank or a publication or a federal agency who

00:32:57.540 blithely talks about regime change in any country should be disqualified from talking

00:33:02.160 about anything foreign policy related ever again.

00:33:04.960 If you had a hand in the Iraq war, if you had a hand in the Syria disaster, if you had

00:33:08.540 a hand in killing Gaddafi, if you had a hand in Afghanistan, if you lied about what happened

00:33:13.600 on 9-11, and that's pretty much everybody in D.C. in the foreign policy establishment,

00:33:17.380 you can no longer participate in the decision-making process about where to send arms and money around

00:33:23.220 the world because you are disqualified.

00:33:24.980 Your track record is so repugnant.

00:33:27.180 We're not going to throw you in jail, though you clearly deserve it.

00:33:29.440 We are instead just going to take you out of the conversation because you were demonstrably

00:33:33.520 unqualified to get us into new wars because you screwed it up last time.

00:33:37.780 I don't think that's a terrible standard.

00:33:39.200 That's a really straightforward standard.

00:33:40.700 And I feel angry about it because I spent my whole life there.

00:33:43.800 My dad worked for the federal government in the foreign policy sphere.

00:33:46.680 And so I just grew up with this stuff and I know the people.

00:33:50.620 And I know that none of them has ever apologized or changed his thinking, repented.

00:33:56.940 And the baseline requirement in my house as a father is you can do whatever you want.

00:34:01.520 You can screw up as badly as you want.

00:34:03.000 I will always love you no matter what you do.

00:34:05.080 But you have to admit fault and you have to try to change.

00:34:08.620 That's called repentance.

00:34:09.660 That's like we should make that a absolute unyielding requirement for our leaders.

00:34:15.100 If you screw up, if you admit it and try to get better, we still love you.

00:34:19.280 But if you refuse to do that, we're never trusting you again.

00:34:21.420 And that's our entire foreign policy establishment.

00:34:23.240 And so for those people, and by the way, it's not just that they're like arguing for regime

00:34:27.880 change in Iraq.

00:34:28.580 They're not.

00:34:29.460 They're not.

00:34:30.160 They don't.

00:34:30.680 They're not even honorable enough to say what they want out loud.

00:34:33.780 And anyone who raises questions, I'll speak from great experience on this topic.

00:34:39.280 I've never said word one about what's happening in Gaza.

00:34:42.300 OK, I have views on it.

00:34:44.260 I'm not impressed at all.

00:34:45.920 But I've like tried to pull back because it's not my country.

00:34:48.360 OK, so I'm just looking at it from an American perspective.

00:34:51.400 I don't want my country to be further weakened, my fellow citizens to die yet again, my federal

00:34:59.060 treasury to be drained yet again on behalf of an idea that's clearly stupid.

00:35:04.320 Like, I think it's important to say, wait a second.

00:35:06.740 Is this a good idea?

00:35:07.740 Can we actually do what you say we can do?

00:35:10.080 For doing that, I have been attacked as a tool of Iran.

00:35:14.660 I'm a freaking Episcopalian.

00:35:16.160 I am not Shiite as a tool of Qatar.

00:35:18.860 It's like one of our closest allies in the world.

00:35:21.020 The largest American air base in the Middle East is in Qatar.

00:35:23.960 They're a close ally of ours.

00:35:26.100 And all of a sudden it's like, oh, you're taking Qatari money.

00:35:29.120 I've never taken a dollar.

00:35:30.140 I've never taken a dollar from any government.

00:35:32.600 I mean, are you joking?

00:35:33.560 And these are people who are acting on behalf of a foreign government telling me that I'm

00:35:37.880 unpatriotic.

00:35:38.600 And I try not to get like crazy angry about it, but it's hard because you see these people,

00:35:45.560 you know, Ben Shapiro or these shills like come out and like attack you personally because

00:35:50.120 He was bashing you just this week.

00:35:52.760 But it's what what's so infuriating is like I'm 56 in two weeks.

00:35:57.800 So I've watched this.

00:35:59.020 I was in Iraq.

00:35:59.880 Like I'm not an expert on anything and I would never claim expertise or try not to claim

00:36:03.380 expertise I don't have.

00:36:04.520 But just I have a good memory and I was there for a lot of this stuff and I have unresolved

00:36:09.380 rage for the reasons I just explained.

00:36:11.780 No one's apologized.

00:36:12.620 No one's repented.

00:36:13.320 No one's changed.

00:36:14.540 And so to attack me is I'm selling out my country, which is the only thing I care about.

00:36:19.400 I don't have another passport.

00:36:20.640 I have no plans to go anywhere.

00:36:21.680 I could.

00:36:22.240 I could certainly afford to move some other country.

00:36:24.440 I'm not.

00:36:25.240 I live directly across from my parents grave and I'm never leaving.

00:36:28.240 So to attack me as a shill for another country, when you yourself are shilling for another

00:36:33.220 country, it's almost too much for my tiny brain to deal with, actually, how much better

00:36:38.860 it would be if someone like Ben Shapiro, who's smart and I don't think Ben Shapiro is like

00:36:43.120 evil, I'm not attacking him as a person.

00:36:45.260 But how much better would it be if he could just sit and say, OK, here's what I think

00:36:49.340 would happen if we joined an attack on Iran or stop lying to me and telling me that we're

00:36:55.360 going to defeat the Houthis.

00:36:56.800 The whole point of getting involved in a war with the Houthis is to suck us into a war with

00:37:01.140 Iran.

00:37:01.620 Like, I know that because I know a lot about this topic.

00:37:05.000 So don't patronize me and lie to me.

00:37:07.360 Just be straightforward and say, I think we can affect regime change in Iran.

00:37:11.820 Here's how we can do it.

00:37:12.640 And then I could say, well, here are my concerns.

00:37:14.960 But instead, it's like, oh, you're weak.

00:37:17.800 You know, you don't love America.

00:37:19.160 I don't love America.

00:37:20.680 Really?

00:37:22.760 It's too much.

00:37:23.840 I can't deal with it.

00:37:25.100 Obviously, forgive me.

00:37:26.700 I can't remember exactly what he was saying, but he was definitely suggesting that you were

00:37:30.520 I can't remember.

00:37:32.420 I just saw it in passing in a headline.

00:37:33.760 So I don't want to do something about the Russia.

00:37:35.780 I'm a peacenik.

00:37:37.140 Well, I mean, what's wrong with being a peacenik?

00:37:38.500 Oh, frankly.

00:37:40.480 I mean, I'm not.

00:37:41.280 Great.

00:37:41.820 It's kind of the time for peaceniks after 20 years of endless war and a lot of blood and

00:37:45.940 treasure sacrificed for very little results.

00:37:48.260 Well, I kind of feel that way.

00:37:50.000 And I it's hard for me as someone who's like carried a 38 in his pocket for many years to

00:37:54.440 think of myself as like some hippie peacenik or something.

00:37:57.300 But I do think that Christianity, unique among the world's religions, certainly among the

00:38:02.760 monotheistic religions, has a real problem with violence.

00:38:06.380 Like I just have been reading the New Testament.

00:38:08.540 I'm hardly a theologian.

00:38:09.560 I'm not an expert.

00:38:10.800 Consult other sources.

00:38:12.400 Don't take my word for it.

00:38:13.560 But like it's pretty clear in the Gospels that when Peter pulls out the sword, it cuts

00:38:18.020 off the ear of the guy who's arresting Jesus and Jesus scolds him and heals the slave's ear.

00:38:22.860 It's like that's a pretty clear sign that our religion does not condone violence.

00:38:28.140 And I don't understand why nobody says that.

00:38:31.160 But that is my read of it.

00:38:32.960 So I do feel like there's a religious impulse behind my views also.

00:38:36.840 But there's the practical concerns that I just listed.

00:38:39.760 But on the Russia thing, it's like nobody asked me whether I thought Russia should be

00:38:44.860 our enemy.

00:38:45.460 I'll tell you, no.

00:38:46.820 I think people are really mad that they were not mad at Russia before.

00:38:50.540 They were not mad when the Soviets ran it.

00:38:52.160 They weren't mad when the drunk Boris Yeltsin ran it.

00:38:54.200 They were mad when Putin took over in 2000 and started refinancing the Russian Orthodox

00:38:59.480 Church.

00:38:59.880 I do think that was upsetting to a lot of people in the West.

00:39:04.440 And I think, whatever, that's their view.

00:39:06.800 That's not my view.

00:39:07.740 I think that's good.

00:39:08.640 I think Christian countries are good.

00:39:10.420 And I think that, you know, I'm not moving to Russia.

00:39:13.380 I don't speak Russian.

00:39:14.960 I have kind of nothing to do with Russia, actually.

00:39:17.120 But I definitely don't think it's the most threatening country in the world to us.

00:39:20.500 I think we should be allies with Russia.

00:39:21.960 I think that's in our interest.

00:39:23.600 So to to say like, oh, you like Putin.

00:39:27.160 Well, OK, first of all, I'm an American citizen.

00:39:28.820 I can like anyone I want.

00:39:30.440 OK, it's not doesn't mean I'm unpatriotic.

00:39:32.600 Actually, I would have questions about the patriotism of anybody who wants to get us into

00:39:37.100 a war that's going to kill more Americans that we can't win and that serves no obvious

00:39:40.780 purpose.

00:39:41.160 So like the whole way of debating it drives me bonkers.

00:39:44.320 It's like personal.

00:39:46.080 It's attacking people's character.

00:39:48.200 It's attacking their loyalty to the nation.

00:39:50.340 I thought that's what the left did.

00:39:51.760 And it's also, by the way, in favor of censorship, like, oh, I don't know if you should platform

00:39:55.780 people with those views.

00:39:57.320 What?

00:39:57.580 That's ridiculous.

00:39:58.520 First of all, I don't acknowledge the word platform is not a verb.

00:40:01.700 It's not a verb.

00:40:02.500 It's a noun.

00:40:03.220 It's something you stand on when you dive into a swimming pool.

00:40:06.080 It's not a verb.

00:40:07.420 Stop stealing my nouns and making them into verbs.

00:40:10.760 You douchebag.

00:40:11.400 Yes, it stops stealing pronouns that already have a meaning and trying to give them new

00:40:16.700 meaning.

00:40:17.180 They, them is taken.

00:40:18.180 It's not available to you confused people.

00:40:21.560 Sorry.

00:40:22.080 Wow.

00:40:23.080 No, it's good.

00:40:23.880 It's a fine tear.

00:40:25.500 I got a lot of places I could go with that.

00:40:29.120 But what you said is also true about what's happening in Gaza.

00:40:32.060 You know, I've been very pro-Israel on this show after the 10-7 attack, and then I haven't

00:40:36.660 been following the day-to-day, you know, bombing campaign.

00:40:39.260 But I have noticed, and I've talked to Glenn Greenwald on the program about it a lot,

00:40:43.600 that, you know, the people who have problems with what Israel is doing too often get the

00:40:49.780 knee-jerk, you're an anti-Semite.

00:40:51.500 And that's not okay either.

00:40:53.440 You know, it's like, it is totally fine to criticize Israel and to think that they've

00:40:57.860 gone too far and that they've been too, you know, non-judicious in this retaliatory

00:41:02.240 campaign.

00:41:02.700 That is, you cannot dismiss anybody who feels that way and who is really critical of how

00:41:07.620 Israel's handled itself as an anti-Semite.

00:41:09.900 But that gets, you know, that gets collapsed too into like one of those narratives one cannot

00:41:14.240 espouse.

00:41:14.760 You are not allowed to say that, just like you are not allowed to have a different view

00:41:18.340 of Putin and this war, you know, this proxy war that we've entered to against him.

00:41:22.360 Um, it's, it's actually, it's a very powerful slur.

00:41:28.120 Um, it has a much more immediate effect on my life that, you know, they called me for

00:41:32.580 years a racist or whatever.

00:41:34.240 Okay.

00:41:34.980 You know, if I was racist, I would just say so.

00:41:36.180 Literally all over the New York Times.

00:41:37.900 Yeah, yeah.

00:41:38.460 I'm a racist.

00:41:38.880 They're so disappointed they couldn't bring you down.

00:41:39.940 It's like that.

00:41:41.380 I didn't really care.

00:41:43.140 Um, you know, I have a lot of Jewish friends, like real friends, not, not people I know, but

00:41:47.040 like actual friends.

00:41:48.780 And, um, so I don't want to be called that because it's not true.

00:41:52.540 And, and that's a very tough thing to call somebody.

00:41:55.740 And all of a sudden I, you know, the last thing I want is a fight over Israel.

00:42:01.760 I just don't, by the way, I do think way too much headspace in this country and too much

00:42:05.480 public debate is devoted to foreign countries.

00:42:07.420 Like I want to know how we're going to fix the roads in this country and lower the suicide

00:42:11.780 rate a little bit in the OD rate.

00:42:13.560 I think you should be worried about the drug cartels.

00:42:15.320 Just, just, just quickly.

00:42:16.400 There are lots of things we're not talking about.

00:42:17.700 In our last half hour today, we're going to be talking about, um, the fentanyl crisis

00:42:21.760 because it's the national fentanyl awareness day and it's the number one killer of our

00:42:25.360 young people.

00:42:25.900 The number one killer of our young people.

00:42:27.360 It's killed more people than all the wars since the world war two forward has killed in

00:42:33.140 America.

00:42:33.520 And we're just kind of like, Oh, I mean, until Trump really, we weren't paying much attention

00:42:36.940 to it at all.

00:42:38.920 Yeah.

00:42:39.280 I mean, and I think all of us, I know a couple of people have died from it and, and I'm not

00:42:43.180 unusual.

00:42:43.740 I think everyone knows people who died from it.

00:42:45.560 So it's, it's, it's literally like the worst thing that's happening in the United States.

00:42:49.840 And, you know, the fentanyl's killed more Americans than Iran has.

00:42:53.980 So on some level, it's like, I resent the hijacking of my concern by a foreign country.

00:42:58.700 I mean, I do.

00:42:59.500 And I think, look, I spent a lot of time in foreign countries.

00:43:01.800 I think foreign policy is super interesting.

00:43:03.360 It matters to the United States.

00:43:04.280 The world matters.

00:43:05.080 I mean, I, I'm not an isolationist in any sense.

00:43:07.960 I'm actually in more foreign countries than most people by a lot, you know, but I do think

00:43:13.220 fixing the United States is the main priority for Americans.

00:43:15.580 And so that bothers me, but on the question of Israel, it's like, I like Israel.

00:43:18.700 I've been there a number of times, take my family there on vacation.

00:43:21.400 They're going again soon.

00:43:23.100 We're Christians.

00:43:23.900 They want to go to Jerusalem.

00:43:24.820 I got it.

00:43:25.680 So, and I have a million friends who both live in Israel and who love Israel.

00:43:29.800 So I don't want to have a fight about Israel at all, just at all.

00:43:33.420 So I've really tried not to have that fight.

00:43:36.480 And, but I don't want the United States to enter in another unwinnable Middle Eastern war.

00:43:41.920 I just really, really don't, especially now we don't even have the ammo for it.

00:43:44.700 So whatever, there's a lot.

00:43:45.960 But anyway, I have been like attacked in ways that are so crazy that I, and it's totally

00:43:51.440 coordinated from Israel.

00:43:53.320 So I finally, the other day I called someone I know in the Israeli government.

00:43:58.060 There are like some great people in the Israeli government.

00:44:00.200 I called one of them and I said, you know, stop this.

00:44:02.980 Like, I am not your enemy.

00:44:04.380 You have, you don't think you have enough enemies?

00:44:06.820 What?

00:44:07.500 You have like real enemies.

00:44:09.160 I've gone out of my way.

00:44:10.720 And by the way, it's our weapons being used.

00:44:13.160 No, I know you have in Gaza.

00:44:14.600 So I have every right to say you have a dispute with your neighbor and you want to get, you

00:44:19.620 know, medieval on him.

00:44:20.760 Do it on your own dime.

00:44:22.100 Do it with your own weapons.

00:44:23.240 I'm not paying for that.

00:44:24.500 That's a totally fair position as an American taxpayer who pays like way more than a share

00:44:28.280 in taxes.

00:44:28.700 Like I have a right to do that.

00:44:30.020 I haven't done that because I don't want to fight, but I've been attacked anyway.

00:44:34.440 And these creepy people taking direct orders from a foreign government are attacking me

00:44:38.600 on the internet and I wouldn't care except this specific slur affects my personal life.

00:44:43.580 Like a really old friend of mine, 35 year old friend, I can't believe what they're saying.

00:44:47.560 Is this true?

00:44:48.600 Is it true that I'm an anti-semit?

00:44:50.040 No.

00:44:50.660 Of course it's not.

00:44:51.740 What are you even saying?

00:44:53.700 So, um, so they've gotten to me.

00:44:55.720 So that's made me upset.

00:44:56.500 So I called up and I was like, you guys got to stop.

00:44:58.440 We're not doing that.

00:44:59.560 I've, you know, I'm almost 56.

00:45:01.720 I know how the world works.

00:45:03.240 Please stop.

00:45:04.760 Well, and I was like, you, if you think I'm your main enemy in a world that really hates

00:45:11.400 you, I mean, they're right about that.

00:45:12.640 A lot of people really do hate Israel.

00:45:13.880 I'm not one of them.

00:45:14.840 If you think I'm the problem, you're going off the deep end.

00:45:18.520 You're insane.

00:45:19.740 Like I am showing restraint at the only thing I've done one segment on the whole topic and

00:45:25.240 it's on Christians in the Holy land.

00:45:27.000 I am a Christian.

00:45:28.220 My family's been Christian for, you know, whatever a thousand years.

00:45:31.060 I have a right to say this and Christians in the Holy land are mistreated by, by Muslims

00:45:37.500 and by Israel and in the West bank and in Gaza.

00:45:42.000 And I have a right to say, I don't think that us tax dollars should be used to mistreat

00:45:46.640 Christians.

00:45:47.000 And by the way, my real contempt is not for Israel.

00:45:50.040 It's for the American evangelical preachers who ignore this, the Christian Zionists who

00:45:54.640 think it's okay to blow up a church because they're weird theology, which is like demonstrably

00:46:00.120 not in the new Testament.

00:46:01.560 I can just tell you it's not there.

00:46:03.600 I don't know where they came up with this.

00:46:04.620 It's not there.

00:46:05.160 It's not what it says, but whatever.

00:46:06.820 I'm mad at them.

00:46:07.840 I did one segment on that.

00:46:09.360 And all of a sudden I'm like a Holocaust denier or something.

00:46:13.060 So anyway, I called up and I said, you guys got to pull back on this stuff.

00:46:16.240 It's crazy.

00:46:17.920 And again, I'm the wrong target and I don't think it really had any effect, but I did

00:46:23.900 do that because it's like, I, why would I want that?

00:46:27.340 I just don't want to go to Iran.

00:46:28.320 How does it make its way to you, Tucker?

00:46:30.920 Cause I know you wisely avoid the internet as much as possible.

00:46:34.860 Um, because people I know usually get, I get texts from people who were like, Oh, you know,

00:46:41.840 is it, do you really had a Holocaust denier on your show?

00:46:44.560 What?

00:46:45.440 No.

00:46:46.060 I mean, I was in a meeting.

00:46:47.680 So it comes to you personally.

00:46:48.860 Right.

00:46:49.240 Okay.

00:46:49.560 With the well-known person who's like, who I like, who's like, my wife wanted me to ask

00:46:54.400 you, why did you have a Holocaust denier on your show?

00:46:56.840 And I was like, I don't even know what the hell he was talking about.

00:46:59.200 And it's just layers of propaganda rather than look.

00:47:02.320 And I'm not, I hate it when people whine about being attacked.

00:47:05.060 I almost never do it.

00:47:06.680 I'm just in this specific case, I think we are being robbed of the debate that we need

00:47:14.640 over our foreign policy, over foreign influence on our politics, which is absolutely profound.

00:47:21.100 And it's not coming from Russia.

00:47:22.260 It's coming from Israel.

00:47:23.400 It's profound.

00:47:24.600 You can't even say that out loud because why?

00:47:26.760 And I feel like none of us can have an honest, non-hateful, non-crazy, non-antisemitic, just

00:47:33.820 a straightforward conversation about sovereignty.

00:47:37.220 Like, can we make decisions that are in interest or not?

00:47:39.660 And about what the wise course is.

00:47:41.960 And by the way, I think you should listen to other countries, including Israel and Canada

00:47:45.860 and France and every country.

00:47:47.480 Like, what you do has an effect on other people and you should hear them out.

00:47:50.940 I'm not saying you shouldn't.

00:47:52.480 You should.

00:47:53.080 And I would include Israel in that.

00:47:54.160 But I'm merely saying we should talk openly and not leave it to the crazy people.

00:48:02.480 Responsible, normal, non-hateful people should have an open conversation about what the right

00:48:08.340 next steps are.

00:48:10.200 And the risks.

00:48:10.560 All kinds of different theaters and the risks.

00:48:12.700 That's exactly right.

00:48:13.480 And you can't.

00:48:14.100 Do you think?

00:48:14.380 Because all of a sudden you've got Ben Shapiro being like, oh, you're sucking up to Putin.

00:48:17.980 You're anti-Semitic.

00:48:19.060 It's like, son, sit this one out.

00:48:21.380 You have no idea what you're talking about.

00:48:22.800 You're a child, actually.

00:48:24.980 And you're reading talking points that discredit you.

00:48:27.780 I think Ben is smart.

00:48:28.780 He probably has interesting things to say.

00:48:30.500 But when you are unwilling to criticize a foreign government at all, it tells the rest

00:48:36.100 of us what you're saying isn't real.

00:48:37.900 Like, will you criticize the U.S. government every day?

00:48:41.380 Are you kidding?

00:48:42.060 My dad worked for the U.S. government.

00:48:43.480 And I'm willing to criticize every—it's all I do is criticize the U.S. government.

00:48:47.160 Yeah, he's a lot of talking.

00:48:47.780 But you're not going to criticize a foreign government?

00:48:49.260 What are you talking about?

00:48:50.460 Who wrote these rules, man?

00:48:52.360 And you're going to try and shut me up by calling me a hater when I'm not?

00:48:56.300 And if I were, I would just say so?

00:48:57.900 I don't think that's going to work.

00:48:59.500 Yeah.

00:48:59.840 No, it didn't work when the New York Times tried to do it to you on the racist claim,

00:49:03.100 or to me for that matter.

00:49:04.200 And it can't work on an anti-Semitism charge either.

00:49:07.060 Like, we have to.

00:49:07.720 We have to be able to talk about Israel and Iran.

00:49:10.940 Very honestly, the ups and downs and the, I mean, severe risks of this strategy that

00:49:15.940 many are pushing.

00:49:17.080 Though the question is whether Trump is listening.

00:49:19.180 All right, we've got to squeeze in a break.

00:49:21.220 The one and only Tucker Carlson.

00:49:22.260 He's so interesting, isn't he?

00:49:23.220 And I haven't even scratched the surface of my list.

00:49:25.280 So we'll come back and we'll scratch some surfaces.

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00:51:11.740 Three women, one mission.

00:51:14.860 They all find me very inspirational.

00:51:16.700 Yes.

00:51:18.160 Limited training.

00:51:19.880 Right, left, right, left.

00:51:23.560 Their dream, to inspire humanity.

00:51:26.760 Or at least grab a few good selfies.

00:51:33.300 This Friday on the Megyn Kelly Show, the launch of Blonde Origin.

00:51:38.680 I don't appreciate when people call it a ride.

00:51:40.460 It's not a ride.

00:51:41.420 It's a mission.

00:51:42.260 There's nothing frivolous about what we just did.

00:51:45.740 Blonde Origin.

00:51:48.140 Where weightlessness and cluelessness collide.

00:51:52.640 I'm inspirational!

00:51:56.760 Oh, that is so awesome.

00:52:00.020 You're going to the Middle East and I'm going to space.

00:52:03.880 No, I just love that.

00:52:06.800 I can't see any video, so I'm just hearing it.

00:52:10.580 Like, what's this?

00:52:12.020 That's awesome.

00:52:13.460 We've got to tune in on Friday when we have our official response to the

00:52:17.560 ridiculousness of that Blue Origin space flight where we crowned six new

00:52:22.840 astronauts.

00:52:23.460 Astronauts, you may have heard, they have a difficult time calling themselves

00:52:27.100 astronauts because they're not.

00:52:29.500 But we had so much fun mocking them.

00:52:32.840 And let's just say we took it to New Heights, the mockery.

00:52:36.240 I love it.

00:52:37.200 It's not a ride.

00:52:37.840 It's a mission.

00:52:39.000 It's so good.

00:52:40.440 Okay.

00:52:41.200 I want to start with this.

00:52:43.020 Mark Halpern was on the show recently, and he had something interesting to say

00:52:48.220 about you, and it had the ring of truth.

00:52:51.620 I know he's been on your show, too.

00:52:52.900 Take a listen to what he reported here on the show.

00:52:57.280 Do you think Pete Hegseth will survive this, and will he survive as defense secretary?

00:53:04.640 Because it's very clear some group of people that's pretty loud is out to get him.

00:53:12.660 Yeah.

00:53:13.040 So I've got what I call the Trump board of directors, okay?

00:53:17.620 And the board of directors is Tucker, Charlie Kirk, and Don Jr.

00:53:22.580 And if the board of directors support something, I think generally it happens.

00:53:27.600 And I believe all three of them, I know all three of them have been supportive.

00:53:33.220 Confirm or deny?

00:53:33.980 Well, no one tells me when the meetings are.

00:53:38.960 No, of course not.

00:53:40.040 I'm not on a board of directors.

00:53:43.220 It means informally that you're like the top advisors on the outside.

00:53:47.380 No, my gosh.

00:53:48.940 I don't like it when people exert influence secretly.

00:53:52.920 It's better just to say out loud exactly.

00:53:55.400 Because what happened, and I've seen it obviously my whole life, is that people become power

00:54:00.060 worshipers really quickly.

00:54:01.280 It's in all of us to kowtow to power, to worship power, to want power.

00:54:05.680 And that's our destruction.

00:54:07.120 So I'm wary of all of that.

00:54:09.420 I mean, I love Trump.

00:54:10.640 I've always, you know, I mean, I've definitely gone through phases over the last 20 plus years

00:54:16.400 of knowing Trump.

00:54:18.280 But no, I, you know, there's no one who's more entertaining, fun to be with, whose instincts

00:54:23.060 are, they're just incredible.

00:54:24.720 He's like, he's an incredible person.

00:54:26.420 You don't, obviously he's an incredible person.

00:54:28.200 So I really like Trump so much and, but I try and say, I try to, probably don't always

00:54:33.380 succeed, but I try to say exactly what I would say in private, in public.

00:54:37.440 I just try to be transparent, both so I don't have to keep track of different storylines

00:54:41.660 or lies.

00:54:42.240 And also because I just feel better.

00:54:44.120 It's just good to be open about everything.

00:54:45.840 Um, I do think Pete is under attack.

00:54:48.440 I, I love Halperin by the way.

00:54:50.100 Um, he's really smart and he's, he's launching his own podcast today.

00:54:54.000 It's called, uh, up next with Mark Halperin.

00:54:57.500 And, uh, that's part of our new MK media podcast network.

00:55:00.720 Sorry.

00:55:01.160 Next up.

00:55:01.600 Next up.

00:55:01.920 I love that.

00:55:02.860 No, I didn't even know.

00:55:03.660 I'm, I'm going to text him right now.

00:55:05.060 He's, but anyway, I think his analysis is totally right.

00:55:07.540 There is a group.

00:55:08.280 I think it's partly ideological that would very much like to see Pete out.

00:55:12.760 I'm on this, you know, I'm of course close to Pete and known Pete a long time.

00:55:16.000 We had the same job.

00:55:17.040 I know you are as well.

00:55:18.800 And so I'm strongly for Pete, but I do think that a lot of the drama at the staff level in

00:55:24.840 the Pentagon, some of it's just the product of the fact that Pentagon is a snake pit,

00:55:28.240 very complicated place to work.

00:55:30.220 I said to Pete recently, I was like, there's no way I could ever, I couldn't run that place

00:55:34.820 for one day.

00:55:35.380 I mean, I'm just, I'm in awe of anyone who can run the Pentagon.

00:55:38.620 So I think that's part of it, but there's also an ideological motive here.

00:55:43.140 And Pete is like sensible.

00:55:45.140 He's rooted in the experience of the troops.

00:55:46.880 He is of course loyal to the president.

00:55:49.420 He understands the president's vision and it would be a lot easier, I think, to have like

00:55:54.800 a crazed neoconservative Senator run the Pentagon.

00:55:59.020 If you wanted a war with Iran, I do think that's part of it.

00:56:01.960 And I, so I don't understand a lot of what's happening there.

00:56:05.180 I do know Dan Caldwell pretty well, who's one of the, um, the aides, one of the senior

00:56:11.400 aides who was fired.

00:56:12.780 Yeah.

00:56:13.100 And I'm completely convinced.

00:56:15.220 I think the evidence proves that Dan Caldwell did not leak classified information to NBC

00:56:20.240 news.

00:56:20.540 That's a lie.

00:56:21.140 I was told that by somebody who I trust, by the way, who I think was telling me the

00:56:24.720 truth.

00:56:24.940 He believed it also, but that was out there.

00:56:27.940 Everyone heard that.

00:56:29.020 He photocopied information or took a picture on his phone, texted it to this reporter at

00:56:33.420 NBC, broke federal law.

00:56:35.020 That's a crime to do that.

00:56:36.740 Undermine the president, et cetera, et cetera.

00:56:38.480 Well, that was, that that's not true.

00:56:39.640 He didn't do that.

00:56:40.760 And moreover, not only did he not do that, there's no evidence that he did it because

00:56:43.920 they never took his phone and they never polygraphed him.

00:56:45.940 So the whole thing was one of those classic Washington.

00:56:49.600 I think of it as like getting attacked by a swarm of bees.

00:56:52.520 Like you're just going along, you're walking through the woods and all of a sudden you

00:56:55.660 step on a hive and they're just flying up your shorts.

00:56:57.540 They're on you.

00:56:58.020 You can't think straight.

00:56:59.020 All you know is pain.

00:56:59.960 And, and that's how they get people like this stuff will appear out of nowhere.

00:57:04.280 All of a sudden you'll just hear so-and-so's bad.

00:57:06.340 He did something really wrong.

00:57:07.360 I don't know all the details, but he's, he's done.

00:57:09.820 And, and then the, the five minute hate begins and the person's destroyed.

00:57:13.200 That's what happened to Dan Caldwell.

00:57:15.020 And, but the question is why wasn't personal because Dan Caldwell was a check against the

00:57:21.160 enormous pressure that the Pentagon and the white house are receiving to engage in a war

00:57:27.020 with Iran and also to destabilize Pete.

00:57:30.320 I mean, he'd worked with Pete for over 10 years.

00:57:32.280 They were concerned veterans for America together.

00:57:35.120 So he knew him well.

00:57:36.220 And so to take away all the people that the secretary knows well and trusts and replace

00:57:41.960 them with, you know, sinister lifers who are never telling the truth about anything.

00:57:47.420 I do think, again, I don't have any special knowledge.

00:57:49.820 This is just my outside analysis as someone who's a student of bureaucracy, the federal bureaucracy.

00:57:54.620 I think that's what happened.

00:57:55.700 I, so after you guys, after you sat with Dan Caldwell, which was a great interview and

00:58:00.580 it hit last Monday, everybody should listen to it.

00:58:02.600 We wound up speaking with one of the other guys who got fired, uh, Colin Carroll, and

00:58:08.100 he had a different take on it.

00:58:09.340 His take was, I mean, he didn't put it in this exact way, but he said, you know, they're

00:58:14.700 having these fights with this Joe Casper, who's Pete's chief of staff.

00:58:18.420 They couldn't get along with this guy.

00:58:20.000 He couldn't get along with them.

00:58:21.280 Like pretty much all three of them.

00:58:22.700 It sounded like maybe he felt threatened by them.

00:58:24.580 He denies that he says, the office was running fine.

00:58:26.960 Just look at the results.

00:58:28.160 But they seem to say this guy was an obstacle that they were trying to get around.

00:58:31.540 And I think they think he was out to get them and he thinks they were out to get him and

00:58:38.400 they think he had a heavy hand in setting it up to look like they were the leakers.

00:58:44.060 And I don't know exactly whether that's true or not, but obviously those three were walked

00:58:47.920 out the door and he was walked out of his position.

00:58:50.620 He's no longer the chief of staff, but the whole thing has the unfortunate effect of making

00:58:55.500 Pete's top inner circle look like it's in disarray.

00:58:58.480 And I'll say this, we both like Mark a lot.

00:59:01.020 So his podcast is called Next Up.

00:59:02.780 It's going to premiere today.

00:59:04.960 And he, I believe, has a bit of news.

00:59:07.840 He's going to be breaking on Pete.

00:59:09.920 And it doesn't sound like it's necessarily going to be all that positive.

00:59:13.880 So we'll have to tune in.

00:59:14.760 Even I don't know exactly what it is.

00:59:17.080 So we'll have to tune in to find out.

00:59:18.240 But I'll ask you the same question I was asking there.

00:59:21.000 Do you think he will survive this?

00:59:22.860 Because, you know, there are a lot of people out to get him and you don't know, right?

00:59:28.320 So far, outwardly, Trump's been saying he stands by him, but you just never know how

00:59:32.600 much of this he wants to wade through.

00:59:36.000 Well, of course, I have no idea what Halpern's going to say.

00:59:39.040 And he's been, as he does, actively reporting on this.

00:59:42.300 I have not been.

00:59:43.220 So I'm sure he knows a lot more than I do.

00:59:45.140 So I don't want to get, you know, over my skis and make yet another bad prediction, which

00:59:49.840 I've done for 30 years.

00:59:52.320 Well, Putin will never invade Ukraine.

00:59:54.680 OK, that was one of my bad predictions.

00:59:56.880 But excuse me.

00:59:59.020 But my sense as of, you know, last time I was paying close attention, talking to people

01:00:04.700 is that Pete, Secretary Hegseth, did have the full support of the president.

01:00:10.500 And, you know, both because I think he loves Pete as a person.

01:00:15.300 I know I do.

01:00:16.260 He's just a good guy.

01:00:17.920 And his wife was my producer, who I love, Jen.

01:00:21.000 And so I and I think Trump feels the same way about them.

01:00:23.840 Pete has a lot of friends.

01:00:24.640 People like Pete.

01:00:25.520 He's a good man.

01:00:26.960 But also because I don't think you want to lose a key cabinet secretary 100 days in.

01:00:32.420 I don't think that's a good precedent at all.

01:00:34.460 And for what?

01:00:36.000 And for what?

01:00:36.740 You know, it's like that's exactly for what?

01:00:38.480 Because there were staff squabbles?

01:00:41.200 Yes, exactly.

01:00:42.160 No, I think that's exactly I think it's exactly right.

01:00:44.580 And but here's what I and and what I don't know, Colin, I've heard he's an amazing person

01:00:50.660 and a patriot and a man of bravery and integrity.

01:00:53.340 And I believe all of that.

01:00:54.540 And I'm sure that, you know, staff squabbles and fights with the chief of staff, Joe Casper

01:00:59.060 played a huge role in all of this.

01:01:00.740 But my specialty is on, you know, the bigger questions, the ideological questions.

01:01:05.240 And I just can't confirm, since that's the world that I live in, that there is huge pressure

01:01:10.340 on a bunch of cabinet secretaries, particularly on Pete Hegseth, to go along with this war

01:01:16.860 with Iran.

01:01:17.440 Like that is priority one right now for a bunch of different reasons, partly because of where

01:01:21.980 American troops are on rotation in the Middle East or happen to be a lot of them right

01:01:25.680 now, partly because there's a belief that Iran's air defenses have been neutralized to

01:01:29.980 some extent and maybe for other reasons.

01:01:32.500 So there's a lot of pressure right now.

01:01:35.000 And so that is a factor in every big decision that's made, you know, and and I would just

01:01:41.860 say that's a shame because we have a lot of I mean, that's those are all fair questions.

01:01:45.200 Should we bomb Iran?

01:01:45.960 Like that's a real conversation.

01:01:47.220 We should not ignore the conversation.

01:01:48.740 But as you just said earlier about fentanyl, like this country has a lot of problems.

01:01:52.860 And Donald Trump was elected by grateful voters who wanted those questions to be addressed.

01:01:58.480 And so I just hope as we debate problems in other countries, we also reserve time to fix

01:02:04.700 our own.

01:02:06.320 Well, on that front, as we hit the 100 day mark, it's incredible what Trump has done at

01:02:09.800 the border.

01:02:10.820 And I don't think anybody's complaining about what he's done at the border.

01:02:13.540 Even the Democrats aren't really saying anything negative about what he's done at the border.

01:02:17.040 They're focused on the deportations, which is equally as important.

01:02:21.500 I mean, we've got at least 10 million illegals to get out of this country and we are being

01:02:26.880 stymied at every turn by a media and the left who are hand in hand determined to stop it,

01:02:32.740 even with the so-called worst first policy that Tom Homan is pursuing under Trump.

01:02:37.860 We're going to start with not just those who are here illegally, but those who have committed

01:02:40.820 additional crimes or gang members, et cetera.

01:02:43.280 And you've seen what the media has been doing to Trump on that front.

01:02:45.880 It's been ridiculous.

01:02:46.680 But I wonder what your thought is as Trump battles all this, because we saw the first

01:02:52.260 potential drop in polling this week for Trump, even on immigration.

01:02:57.540 That New York Times poll showed for the first time he was underwater on his support for his

01:03:03.300 immigration policies.

01:03:04.760 And overall, he's getting polled.

01:03:06.540 Like today, there was one that just dropped from NPR slash PBS slash Marist, 1400 and change

01:03:12.580 people.

01:03:14.260 Overall, they gave him a grade.

01:03:16.580 The majority said a D or an F. 52% said he gets a D or an F. 23% gave him an A. 17% gave

01:03:23.720 him a B. 8% gave him a C. But the way this shakes out, Tucker, is 80% of Democrats gave him

01:03:28.480 an F. 89% D or F. Republicans, 83% gave him an A or a B. And it was really the independents

01:03:35.760 that drove the poll toward the negative for Trump.

01:03:38.780 And really, the reason that happened is because 35% he gets an A or a B. And 55% said he gets

01:03:44.620 a D or an F. So you've got a 20 percentage point difference in the independents on whether

01:03:48.700 he's doing a good job or a bad job.

01:03:50.180 If you look at the number of people polled, 1400 and change again, that's about 450 independents.

01:03:56.000 So call it like 85 independents are in that swing.

01:03:59.720 You've got 85 people polled who are independents of that, which swung this number, you know,

01:04:03.920 sort of dramatically.

01:04:04.720 Now all the press will run with, oh my God, he's being rejected by everybody.

01:04:08.040 Look at these terrible numbers.

01:04:08.920 He's a D or he's an F.

01:04:10.400 And they will certainly try to say it's these deportations.

01:04:13.000 And they will also say it's tariffs.

01:04:14.780 So your thoughts on all that?

01:04:17.280 I think tariffs are a completely separate category where I'll just say I'm hoping for

01:04:22.640 the best, but uncertain as to how this is going to play out.

01:04:26.120 And I'm not qualified even really to guess.

01:04:28.260 But of course, same.

01:04:29.100 Thank you for your honesty.

01:04:29.860 And I'm rooting, rooting for the, oh yeah, well, I don't, I don't want to clown myself

01:04:34.900 further by talking about things I don't understand.

01:04:37.360 Right.

01:04:37.820 It's just, that's not my area.

01:04:39.380 So, um, but, but immigration, you know, I feel like I know more about him from a state

01:04:43.540 that was destroyed by it completely.

01:04:45.440 Gavin Newsom didn't destroy California.

01:04:47.100 Mass immigration destroyed California.

01:04:48.700 It's a completely different population than the one I grew up with.

01:04:51.100 And it's not better.

01:04:51.980 It's much worse.

01:04:52.980 So that's the story around the world.

01:04:54.740 It's the story of Sweden, where my ancestors came from.

01:04:57.220 It's a story of great Britain, where my other ancestors came from.

01:05:00.100 It's a story of all Western Europe, France, Spain.

01:05:02.940 These countries have been destroyed by mass immigration.

01:05:05.920 That's not a guess at this point.

01:05:07.200 Like the results are in, we know.

01:05:09.340 And so from my perspective, the real number in the United States is unknown.

01:05:14.240 I spoke to a federal official recently who told me that in real numbers, probably closer

01:05:17.320 to 50 million illegal aliens living in the United States right now.

01:05:21.960 So my, that leaves me confused.

01:05:23.900 So you are watching in real time, a digital prison being built around the rest of us on

01:05:29.040 the basis of facial recognition and quote, real IDs, where you can't conduct any business.

01:05:34.380 You can't travel without verifying you are who you say you are.

01:05:37.360 Okay.

01:05:37.680 That's the point of this.

01:05:38.620 It's for our safety.

01:05:39.680 But somehow we can't even know who lives in this country with facial recognition and

01:05:44.480 real IDs.

01:05:45.140 The federal government intrudes into every decision you make in your personal life, but

01:05:50.300 somehow they're totally incapable with all of that technology of telling us how many

01:05:54.840 non-citizens are living here illegally.

01:05:57.260 I call bullshit on that.

01:05:58.860 That's a lie.

01:05:59.860 And I also wonder, like, what is the, the apps, the aggregate number of deportees in the

01:06:06.080 last hundred days?

01:06:06.960 If it's under a million, I'll just say I'm disappointed.

01:06:09.340 And I say this is somebody who voted for Trump, who loves Trump.

01:06:11.140 I like Tom Homan, but like, what is this?

01:06:14.280 The scale of this, because this country is so large, is opaque to most people.

01:06:19.320 They don't understand that our country was just completely changed forever.

01:06:23.320 And it's not acceptable.

01:06:24.660 I mean, I happen to live in a place that's really been affected by, by immigration, by

01:06:28.360 refugee resettlement, which is, I think, a worse problem than illegal immigration, by

01:06:32.480 the way, because at least illegal immigrants are showing a willingness to, you know, put their

01:06:37.780 own butt on the line to get a better life.

01:06:40.080 There's something about that that everybody admires.

01:06:42.580 I don't admire anything about a church group, Catholic charities or the million Protestant

01:06:47.880 groups that move refugees from some refugee camp in Africa into my community where they

01:06:54.020 languish, commit welfare fraud, commit crime.

01:06:56.400 I'm not even attacking them.

01:06:57.600 Like, I feel sorry for them, too.

01:06:59.400 You know, you were just living in Sudan or Somalia, and now you're living in Minneapolis

01:07:03.080 or Portland, Maine.

01:07:03.880 It's like, I feel sorry for you.

01:07:06.140 No one really cares about the effect on you or your family, obviously.

01:07:09.460 But the net effect on the people who live there is terrible.

01:07:12.960 I can verify that.

01:07:14.320 And no one even mentions it.

01:07:16.000 It's like truly destroying the United States is the largest crime ever committed against

01:07:20.380 us.

01:07:21.120 I am not a racist.

01:07:22.480 I'm not even insecure about it anymore since I've been called it so much.

01:07:25.400 It's not in my heart.

01:07:26.580 I'm not a racist.

01:07:27.720 I am a nationalist who loves this country and has no other.

01:07:30.660 And that is a true, true attack on the United States.

01:07:36.980 And I think we need more resources, more seriousness, and higher numbers.

01:07:41.980 Like, get back to me when you deport five million people.

01:07:44.300 This just hit.

01:07:45.000 Yeah.

01:07:45.740 As we were speaking, Bill Malugian of Fox News knew.

01:07:50.080 ICE announces they've deported 65,682 illegals in the Trump administration's first 100 days

01:07:57.140 and have arrested 66,000 and change illegals, 75 percent of whom have criminal charges or

01:08:04.400 convictions.

01:08:05.420 So that's we've arrested about 66,000 and we've deported 66,000.

01:08:12.340 So that's a best case scenario of getting rid of or getting custody over about 120,000,

01:08:17.920 Tucker.

01:08:18.280 And that's not great.

01:08:19.640 It's not great.

01:08:20.580 They've been stymied at every turn.

01:08:22.920 The local officials haven't allowed it.

01:08:24.640 You just do it.

01:08:25.420 The courts, the ACLU.

01:08:27.040 But I mean, how any I have to say even this, you're like, we're waiting on our big, beautiful

01:08:30.800 bill so President Trump can get funding for his initiatives.

01:08:34.700 It's Tom Homan's been jumping up and down saying, I have no place to put the people.

01:08:37.780 Like, you know, they do have some certain time where we have to lock them up before

01:08:41.320 we can ship them out while they get their, quote, due process.

01:08:43.940 He's like, I'm running out of beds.

01:08:45.400 Like, I need I need help.

01:08:46.620 That's what he's been saying.

01:08:47.520 But what do you think of that?

01:08:48.200 Because that's why is it incumbent on us?

01:08:50.840 First of all, stop refugee resettlement in the United States.

01:08:54.020 It's destroyed a lot of communities.

01:08:55.860 It's destroyed communities I'm very familiar with.

01:08:58.400 Destroyed them forever.

01:08:59.940 So stop that immediately.

01:09:01.320 We have no moral obligation.

01:09:02.420 Take a single new refugee and we shouldn't, period.

01:09:05.380 Second, Mexico.

01:09:07.800 One word, Mexico.

01:09:08.940 Mexico, a country that exists because of our largesse, because we move so much manufacturing

01:09:13.060 in Mexico.

01:09:14.140 I mean, you know, Monterey, Mexico, which is the economic engine of Mexico, wouldn't

01:09:17.400 wouldn't be so if it weren't for the United States.

01:09:20.840 And so we have a lot of leverage over Mexico.

01:09:22.520 By the way, they're, you know, they're sending us drugs.

01:09:25.160 We're sending them jobs.

01:09:26.180 And they're also sending us refugees and illegal immigrants from all over the world.

01:09:29.840 How about we just move a million people to Tijuana tomorrow and say, you deal with it.

01:09:34.980 You did this to us.

01:09:35.780 You deal with it.

01:09:36.480 And it was intentional.

01:09:37.440 The anti-American sentiment, not among ordinary Mexicans who are honestly some of my favorite

01:09:42.260 people.

01:09:42.880 I grew up next to them.

01:09:43.920 Awesome people.

01:09:44.840 But their leaders hate the United States.

01:09:46.580 They always have since the Mexican Revolution.

01:09:48.940 That's why Leon Trotsky sought refuge in Mexico.

01:09:51.240 There's a reason.

01:09:51.960 Because the leadership of Mexico is extremely anti-American, extremely ideologically left

01:09:58.700 wing, full atheist, by the way, in a Catholic country.

01:10:02.240 It's a super dark management structure in Mexico and always has been, honestly, since

01:10:07.200 the Aztecs.

01:10:08.060 And they have no choice.

01:10:12.220 They're the country that we should be applying pressure to.

01:10:14.620 So here are our legal aliens that walked across your sovereign territory to get into our country.

01:10:20.600 You deal with them.

01:10:21.440 And you cut the deal with Guatemala.

01:10:23.080 And you cut the deal with Honduras or Peru.

01:10:25.620 What do you make of all the due process?

01:10:27.580 Due process?

01:10:27.940 We have to give them due process before we, you know, this is the United States.

01:10:30.240 We have to give due process before we kick them out.

01:10:32.160 Really, I'm for due process.

01:10:34.380 And I am for due process specifically for me.

01:10:38.980 I'm an American citizen.

01:10:40.540 American citizens pay for this system.

01:10:42.420 Their ancestors built this system and they deserve its fruits.

01:10:45.960 And the first among them is fairness and due process.

01:10:48.360 They're basically the same thing.

01:10:49.940 So that I'm not that concerned whether someone who broke a law, my law, to get into my country

01:10:55.340 and is taking welfare from my pocket gets due process.

01:10:59.120 I'm not that concerned.

01:10:59.800 Second, after three years of getting a daily lecture about democracy and how it dies in

01:11:04.640 darkness, democracy, democracy, what is democracy?

01:11:06.280 Democracy is the idea that the people in a country run the country.

01:11:08.900 They make the big decisions.

01:11:09.740 They own it.

01:11:10.740 They're not slaves or serfs.

01:11:11.880 They're shareholders in this enterprise called America.

01:11:14.080 And they have a say.

01:11:15.420 So now those same people are telling me that some appointed unelected federal judge gets

01:11:20.160 to invite 7 billion people into my country and there's nothing I can do about it.

01:11:25.200 Yeah, I don't think so.

01:11:26.640 I'm not playing along with that.

01:11:28.320 I'm totally for balance of power.

01:11:30.040 I'm for the current system as envisioned, which, by the way, is going away.

01:11:32.840 It's not sustainable with this population.

01:11:34.800 Let's be honest.

01:11:35.760 It's not.

01:11:36.240 Nobody cares about the Constitution anymore.

01:11:37.580 I do because I'm a legacy American.

01:11:40.120 But none of the newcomers, the 50 million people who just got here, they don't care

01:11:43.280 at all.

01:11:43.600 Why would they?

01:11:44.280 It's not their heritage.

01:11:45.920 It's mine.

01:11:47.040 So you're going to lecture me about that and then tell me that we can't stop anybody

01:11:51.120 coming here on our dime who just feels like coming here?

01:11:54.540 I'm ignoring you.

01:11:55.600 I'm literally ignoring you.

01:11:56.660 What are you going to do about it?

01:11:57.940 That's how I personally feel about it.

01:11:59.260 Because at the end of democracy, you're violating the people's will through your appointment,

01:12:06.940 your appointed power, not your elected power.

01:12:09.580 Power does not derive from the population.

01:12:11.160 It derives from the appointment that you got.

01:12:13.140 And you're making the central decision in our society.

01:12:16.140 I don't think you are.

01:12:17.540 So how do they speed it up?

01:12:19.300 I mean, Trump's done so much Alien Enemies Act and he expanded expedited removal and we're

01:12:25.880 back to remain in Mexico and he has home and not like, how does he speed it up?

01:12:29.640 The first thing you do is just say not anyone who's a non-citizen, a non-citizen of the United

01:12:36.100 States is ineligible for any federal benefit.

01:12:38.760 That means no public schooling.

01:12:40.560 That means no food stamps or SNAP.

01:12:43.820 That means no housing vouchers.

01:12:45.640 That means no benefit designed for American citizens can go to a non-citizen.

01:12:51.760 You want those benefits?

01:12:52.820 Become a citizen.

01:12:53.980 And if you're not a citizen, you get nothing.

01:12:55.660 Why would you?

01:12:56.560 How can you use?

01:12:58.080 How are we sitting here and watching every small hospital in the United States is going

01:13:04.020 under right now because people who have no right to be here are using the emergency

01:13:08.160 room.

01:13:08.440 Bring your kid to an emergency room outside of some tiny gated rich community and you will

01:13:13.760 find out that the whole system is collapsing under the weight.

01:13:17.080 I'm sure they're all good people.

01:13:17.980 I'm not even attacking them.

01:13:18.820 Like they're doing what I would do.

01:13:19.980 They're using the available largesse to help their families.

01:13:22.320 I get it.

01:13:23.520 We're the criminals here.

01:13:24.640 We're allowing this.

01:13:25.660 So you just say now on executive order, no non-citizen period can receive federal benefits,

01:13:33.840 period.

01:13:34.360 The president can control that.

01:13:35.780 And then we'll find out who's here for a better life and to bootstrap his way to success

01:13:42.280 and who's here because there's just a lot of free stuff from a very weak, overindulgent,

01:13:48.540 generationally wealthy country that has lost track of reality.

01:13:52.100 And the reality is open borders in a welfare state cannot coexist.

01:13:56.220 And we'll find out.

01:13:57.680 We'll find out.

01:13:58.240 We definitely have to make greater progress than this because, I mean, it doesn't get

01:14:03.840 easier as time goes on.

01:14:05.040 That's not enough.

01:14:05.820 130,000 or so in the first 100 days is underwhelming.

01:14:09.480 Let me ask you about you.

01:14:10.920 Every time I chat with you, you're all over hell and gone.

01:14:14.380 I don't know where you are.

01:14:15.400 So describe your life these days.

01:14:20.540 Well, I'm hoping to go fishing this afternoon.

01:14:23.620 Are you currently up north or down south?

01:14:26.460 Yeah, yeah, no, I'm up in northern New England where, you know, we had a day on Sunday that

01:14:33.060 was so ugly, slate gray skies, 40 degrees, drizzle, no buds on any tree at all, and salt

01:14:43.380 and sand on the roads from winter.

01:14:45.540 And everybody looking kind of like, I just spent the last three months inside by the

01:14:49.900 wood stove drinking coffee brandy.

01:14:51.720 Like people just look like they've been through a war, as they do in cold climates in the spring.

01:14:55.660 And I thought to myself, this is still the prettiest place on earth.

01:14:58.800 I've been everywhere in the world, and this is the prettiest.

01:15:01.180 Even on this, the ugliest out of 365 days, it's still the prettiest place God ever made.

01:15:06.240 So I'm just really grateful to live where I do.

01:15:08.660 And I've been here a long time, and I'm really thankful.

01:15:10.880 I've had a lot of foreign travel.

01:15:13.260 Here I've been like lecturing Ben Shapiro about how you need to care more about America.

01:15:17.600 And I'm like in all these other countries.

01:15:19.100 So I understand that I'm a hypocrite, and I am.

01:15:23.940 I view it from where I sit as like adult education.

01:15:27.320 I feel like you're pursuing a whole new education for yourself now that you have the time to do it.

01:15:31.400 Well, you certainly get a different perspective.

01:15:33.560 I mean, I have to say, you know, I've been to every state more than once, most of them a lot.

01:15:37.660 I really know America pretty well.

01:15:39.360 I've traveled my whole life since I was a child, and I've just seen a lot of stuff.

01:15:42.920 And I continue to think it's the, you know, you don't need to fly first class on Emirates to see the world.

01:15:48.420 You can literally get in your truck and just drive 100 miles, and you just learn a lot of stuff.

01:15:52.180 I mean, yesterday I was visiting a friend in another state I was driving, and I see this church.

01:15:57.700 Clearly it's an Episcopal church.

01:15:59.040 Like it's obviously I know the design of our churches, and there's no sign.

01:16:02.480 So I pull up in front, and I walk in, and it's totally empty.

01:16:05.660 The pews have been taken out.

01:16:06.720 The altar's gone.

01:16:08.120 There are no banners hanging from the ceiling.

01:16:09.640 And I'm like, this is an abandoned stone Episcopal church.

01:16:13.400 And I've been thinking about it ever since.

01:16:15.040 Like the denomination I grew up with has totally collapsed because they forgot that God is the power that, you know, gets people in the pews on Sunday.

01:16:22.520 Like, right, you give up God, your church collapses.

01:16:25.280 That's like, I just drove 80 miles yesterday, and I learned that.

01:16:29.180 Like that expanded my head a little bit.

01:16:30.920 Fly to Saudi Arabia for two weeks like I did this winter.

01:16:33.400 Just go someplace new and see stuff, and you just understand more.

01:16:37.580 And the last thing I'll say is like the main lie of the moment that we live in, the generation we live in, is that the truth is accessible on your phone.

01:16:45.800 That like if you Google enough, you'll get to the truth of things, and that is just itself a lie.

01:16:49.780 Like that's a total lie.

01:16:51.940 And to some large extent, it's a control device designed to make you think things that aren't true and to lead you astray.

01:16:57.480 And the antidote to that is to put down your phone, smell things, see things, feel things.

01:17:04.600 Like go places, meet people, you know, take a deep breath through your nose.

01:17:09.000 I'm a big sniff guy.

01:17:10.340 I'm on Joe Biden's side that way.

01:17:12.220 I really believe in the olfactory sense is the most revealing.

01:17:15.400 When I sniff every person I meet, I never put anything in my mouth that's smelling it, not one time in my whole life.

01:17:20.240 I really believe in that.

01:17:21.940 I'm going to pay attention to whether you smell me the next time I see you.

01:17:24.900 Oh, I've sniffed you many times in a totally harmless way that would not threaten Doug at all.

01:17:30.080 But I just sniff everybody.

01:17:31.260 I really believe in that because you learn a lot about someone by smell and vibe.

01:17:36.020 And that's just real.

01:17:36.720 I'm hardly a hippie, okay, but that's just a fact.

01:17:40.200 No, I've heard you talking about that before.

01:17:41.840 And you can't smell anything on the internet.

01:17:42.960 Yes, it's totally real.

01:17:44.360 I can identify my whole family by smell.

01:17:46.400 My wife at least.

01:17:46.920 Yeah, I've heard you say like each child.

01:17:49.840 A hundred percent.

01:17:51.140 I know their smell instantly.

01:17:52.740 And my wife, I mean, I'm literally like a wombat or something.

01:17:56.800 If you are downwind, like I know.

01:18:00.420 Sorry, excuse me.

01:18:01.800 That's impressive because they say females have a greater sense of smell than men have.

01:18:06.460 So if you're that keen in your sense, then you're even more evolved than the average person.

01:18:12.100 I'm less evolved.

01:18:13.300 Way less evolved.

01:18:13.880 Sipping his nose up right now.

01:18:16.220 Okay, so that's good.

01:18:17.340 All right, your point is get out there.

01:18:19.520 Get touch grass, all that.

01:18:20.760 And on that front, you've been a big MAGA person in that you helped launch Casey and

01:18:28.620 Callie Means, who are basically the right hands of RFKJ right now.

01:18:32.240 Not to mention RFKJ himself had a huge hand in his comeback and ascension to this position.

01:18:37.560 So how are you doing on that front?

01:18:39.440 Because I do hear you talk about your love, yes, of Susie, but also of a woman we know

01:18:44.640 as Little Debbie.

01:18:46.100 And I, I don't, are you practicing what you're preaching?

01:18:49.720 Oh, my garbage food intake?

01:18:52.120 Yes.

01:18:52.860 No.

01:18:54.260 And I've been on the road for so long.

01:18:56.620 I mean, you can't imagine.

01:18:58.780 There are countries in which like the three meal program is just the beginning.

01:19:02.060 I mean, there are countries, particularly in the Middle East, where it's like, would you

01:19:06.160 like some more hummus and pita bread?

01:19:07.820 How about some dates?

01:19:08.860 And I just, I mean, I have, I quit drinking.

01:19:11.640 I quit smoking cigarettes.

01:19:12.920 I quit drugs.

01:19:14.260 I feel like I've, I've quit deodorant.

01:19:16.480 I mean, like I'm totally straight edge about everything.

01:19:20.020 Okay.

01:19:20.580 Yeah.

01:19:20.780 But I just have a huge weakness.

01:19:22.680 I was thinking about that this morning.

01:19:23.800 I was in my sauna and I'm like, I gotta, I gotta stop eating garbage.

01:19:27.280 Uh, so no, that is definitely one of my huge problems.

01:19:30.880 My other problem is I just want, as someone who is really, really hoping above all things

01:19:36.600 for grandchildren, I want the vaccine schedule to change for kids.

01:19:40.620 I, I just think it's really, I don't know why that hasn't changed.

01:19:43.840 I think it will too.

01:19:44.720 I haven't complained, but I just, if you're asking like my view of it and what I want,

01:19:48.980 I, I want that because I'm going to have grandchildren and I'm, I think going to really

01:19:53.760 care about them more than anything.

01:19:55.200 And I don't want them injected with all that stuff at all.

01:19:59.300 Like, I think, I mean, I really think Bobby Kennedy, he definitely, I mean, he, he said

01:20:03.780 he had all of his kids vaccinated, but he wishes he had more information.

01:20:07.200 That's what he keeps saying.

01:20:07.920 He just wants us to have more information before we make the same decision with our

01:20:11.300 kids or our grandkids.

01:20:12.460 And what's wrong with that?

01:20:13.560 Why, why shouldn't we know?

01:20:15.220 Like this one's, this one's there to prevent a sexually transmitted disease in your one hour

01:20:20.440 year old, right?

01:20:21.760 We should know.

01:20:22.380 Well, that's it.

01:20:24.900 It's just, there's, there's a lot of coercion in healthcare.

01:20:27.960 And I just watched this firsthand with a, with a dying parent.

01:20:31.660 And there's, and I think everyone I've ever met, like doctor, especially the nurses, like

01:20:35.700 they're all great people.

01:20:37.140 They're motivated by the right impulses.

01:20:39.140 I think I would not, I don't think they're bad at all.

01:20:42.180 I really admire and love them, but I think the system they work within pushes toward certain

01:20:47.720 protocols, like with serious vehemence.

01:20:50.420 It's like, well, that's what we do.

01:20:51.760 You know, like this person needs, you know, an opiate and it's like, well, he doesn't want

01:20:56.000 it actually.

01:20:56.980 Well, he needs it.

01:20:57.820 Or this child needs a vaccine.

01:20:59.460 Well, I don't think we're going to do that.

01:21:01.460 Cause I don't think my one day old is going to get an STD.

01:21:04.200 Well, we, you know, I think there needs to be more respect for choices.

01:21:10.280 Like you should be allowed to turn down certain treatments or prophylactics without being lectured

01:21:16.720 by somebody.

01:21:17.980 Like, I think that's really important because for information providing, I think that's

01:21:22.020 what's been kept from us on the vaccines.

01:21:24.140 They don't, they don't share to this day.

01:21:26.100 They're not really making a thing out of the myocarditis that is so common with young teenage

01:21:31.480 boys who take the umpteenth COVID booster like that we know, cause we're in this ecosystem,

01:21:36.540 but this is not something that they promote or want us to know about.

01:21:39.700 And that's kind of been the theme of our whole discussion today.

01:21:41.920 Like, why can't we talk about it?

01:21:44.100 Why can't we talk about the risks when it comes to Iran?

01:21:46.160 Why can't we talk about potential Israeli overreach when it comes to the war in Gaza?

01:21:51.420 Why can't we talk about the downsides of vaccines?

01:21:53.860 Why can't we talk about immigration without being called names like this?

01:21:58.120 It's a theme.

01:21:59.200 And it, to me, it just gets to the tools that the left used to try to stifle conversation

01:22:03.060 or arguments that might undercut their favorite things.

01:22:06.540 And it's just, their day is over, Tucker.

01:22:08.740 And it's over.

01:22:10.140 Our day is here where we get to talk about it all.

01:22:12.140 It has a, amen.

01:22:13.360 And it has a counterproductive effect.

01:22:14.860 And I see it in myself.

01:22:16.600 Like, I'm not going to allow myself to become a bigot on the question of Israel, period.

01:22:20.700 I'm just not going to allow it.

01:22:21.680 I know that that's a risk.

01:22:22.780 I see other people fall prey to that.

01:22:24.260 I'm not doing that, period.

01:22:26.260 So that's not going to happen to me.

01:22:28.140 But I do see it happening on medical questions and science questions

01:22:33.180 because I was attacked so viciously for asking questions about the vaccine during COVID.

01:22:38.880 And I find myself driven to, like, an extremist position.

01:22:41.780 Like, I'm just not going to the doctor, ever.

01:22:43.980 I'm not going to the doctor.

01:22:44.620 I get cancer.

01:22:45.220 I'm not taking chemotherapy.

01:22:46.480 That's crazy.

01:22:47.640 But I feel that in myself because I'm reacting against unfair attacks on my character just

01:22:53.820 for asking, I thought, pretty normal, low IQ questions.

01:22:57.140 Just very simple questions.

01:22:58.060 And I am responding to that because every action has an equal and opposite reaction, like, in life as in physics.

01:23:05.760 And we need to check ourselves to make sure that we're not becoming crazy.

01:23:09.920 And I just know on health care questions, I have become crazy.

01:23:12.880 Like, I'm not putting – I don't know what is wrong with fluoride, but it's not in my toothpaste.

01:23:17.760 I'm not – like, I've really gone, like, to the far extreme.

01:23:21.000 Like, I'm not – if a doctor tells me to get a shingles vaccine, well, he wouldn't because I don't go to the doctor.

01:23:25.320 But let's say I went to the doctor and he's like, get a shingles vaccine, I would, like, raise my fingers in a cross and, like, back away slowly.

01:23:31.080 I don't even know what a shingles vaccine is.

01:23:33.520 I'm just saying –

01:23:34.400 Okay, I am too vain to avoid that.

01:23:36.980 Like, I got the shingles vaccine because my – well, we had a family member who got shingles.

01:23:41.160 She got it in her eye and then at the tip of her nose and she got scarred from it.

01:23:46.200 It was – I was – I'm too vain, Tucker.

01:23:47.720 You know, I'm all Maha all the way, but it's not going to stop my Botox and my makeup and my hairspray.

01:23:54.540 And we could go on.

01:23:55.780 Maybe I'm not Maha.

01:23:57.080 I actually come to think of it.

01:23:58.140 I love that.

01:23:59.240 We all do what we can.

01:24:00.340 That's just what I love.

01:24:01.420 You're an honest person.

01:24:02.900 That's the only thing we should be shooting for is honesty, I think.

01:24:07.020 Well, I'm honestly very happy to see you.

01:24:09.580 Thanks for coming on.

01:24:10.780 All the best.

01:24:11.440 See you soon, I hope.

01:24:12.360 Great to see you.

01:24:13.440 Thank you.

01:24:14.140 See ya.

01:24:14.700 Ah, the best.

01:24:15.860 Tucker Carlson, everybody.

01:24:16.820 Check out his show.

01:24:17.920 I'm sure you have already, but, of course, he's crushing it and just one of the most important voices in the American conversation today.

01:24:24.280 Thank God for him.

01:24:25.420 Up next, I mentioned it with Tucker.

01:24:27.540 It is Fentanyl Awareness Day.

01:24:29.700 And there are some facts I saw in this documentary that our next guests are going to talk to you about that I had no clue about.

01:24:38.220 And I've covered this kind of story for many, many years.

01:24:41.640 And honestly, there was one particular moment, believe it or not, where I thought to myself, the rehabilitation of Vivek Ramaswamy, who got pummeled on making this point, and he was right.

01:24:54.340 That's next.

01:24:55.020 Let's be real.

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01:26:52.780 I'm Megan Kelly, host of The Megan Kelly Show on SiriusXM.

01:26:58.300 It's your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations with the most interesting and important political, legal, and cultural figures today.

01:27:06.340 You can catch The Megan Kelly Show on Triumph, a SiriusXM channel featuring lots of hosts you may know and probably love.

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01:27:57.420 Today, as we mentioned, is National Fentanyl Awareness Day, and this is a real one.

01:28:02.500 Honestly, this is not one of those made-up things where it's like, whatever, I don't know what this is.

01:28:06.160 I don't have time.

01:28:06.720 This, we do have to pause and think about, to remember those who have been lost, but think about the solutions to this problem so we can prevent these unnecessary mass deaths of our young people.

01:28:20.940 It is a true crisis in this country.

01:28:23.900 Fentanyl overdose is the leading cause of death in Americans ages 18 to 45.

01:28:29.840 I mean, that's the vast swath of living that we do, 18 to 45.

01:28:35.740 You're young.

01:28:36.800 You're vibrant.

01:28:37.440 You have it all in front of you at that age, and it's the leading cause of death right now.

01:28:43.900 This issue cuts close to the bone for me personally.

01:28:47.480 As I've shared with you before, my sister had an opioid problem through no fault of her own.

01:28:53.220 Honestly, she was prescribed this stuff by doctors back in the, you know, era where the doctors were saying to patients, it's not addictive, which is not the same thing as fentanyl.

01:29:02.920 Fentanyl is far more dangerous.

01:29:04.100 Frankly, it's more lethal, but it's a similar road.

01:29:07.100 And then my dear friend, Eric Bolling, who you guys know from Fox News and who's been on this program many, many times, lost his beautiful son, Eric Chase, right after he went off to college from a pill that he thought was a Xanax that was laced with fentanyl, which is extremely common.

01:29:27.960 And Eric, on one of our very first episodes where we didn't even have video, it was audio only, spoke to what happened.

01:29:35.460 Come home from what restaurant?

01:29:37.100 I'm sorry, love.

01:29:43.100 I can feel it.

01:29:47.400 That's right.

01:29:48.540 So we get the call that he had, he had taken what he felt was a Xanax that he bought on campus and it was laced with fentanyl that he didn't know he passed.

01:30:07.100 That's awful.

01:30:08.420 It's the story for too many young Americans and their devastated families who are left to try to pick up the pieces and forge on.

01:30:16.680 This is why we are featuring today a new documentary called Fentanyl Death Incorporated.

01:30:22.820 It's only an hour long and it's so worth your time.

01:30:26.100 It's shining the light on just how dire and far reaching the fentanyl crisis in America really is.

01:30:31.800 Here's a bit from it.

01:30:33.740 Watch.

01:30:34.040 This is fentanyl.

01:30:37.040 This is your brain on fentanyl.

01:30:39.880 This is your friend's brain that was doing fentanyl with you.

01:30:44.360 This is the guy down the street also doing fentanyl.

01:30:47.820 These are your kids who thought they were taking a Percocet they got from a friend who got it off the internet.

01:30:51.600 But the pill was laced with fentanyl.

01:30:53.300 Now they're unconscious and unresponsive.

01:30:55.900 This is the Mexican cartels.

01:30:57.800 This is the Mexican cartels working with Chinese chemical companies to make pills by the millions.

01:31:02.520 Destabilizing the border to traffic enough fentanyl to kill the entire population of a country many times over.

01:31:08.180 This is the ports of British Columbia where chemicals to make fentanyl are smuggled in by the tonnage.

01:31:12.440 And Canadian super labs are producing fentanyl to export to countries around the world.

01:31:15.760 These are gangs and drug dealers near you haphazardly mixing fentanyl powder with other chemicals like xylozine,

01:31:22.000 which is a horse tranquilizer, causing the user's skin to fall off.

01:31:25.820 But hey, at least the high lasts longer.

01:31:30.300 Joining me now, Dr. Robert Marbet, producer of the documentary, along with Billy Baldwin, actor and narrator of the documentary.

01:31:37.980 Guys, welcome to the show.

01:31:39.660 Thank you so much for being here.

01:31:41.280 It's such a heavy subject and it's such an important one.

01:31:44.880 And I could not believe the numbers.

01:31:49.040 Can I just start with this?

01:31:50.500 Dr. Robert, I'll start with you.

01:31:52.680 The problem, you showed about 28 minutes in the documentary.

01:31:56.580 We all think about the southern border.

01:31:58.280 All our focus is on the southern border.

01:32:00.500 And I mentioned in the tease how Vivek Ramaswamy was right about something because at a presidential debate,

01:32:04.720 he said the northern border.

01:32:06.260 And he said we need to watch the northern border because of fentanyl.

01:32:09.240 And people mocked him because it was like the northern border.

01:32:12.200 But you guys make the point in this documentary, it's actually also the east coast and the west coast.

01:32:17.200 It's the entire border that is being attacked by bad actors trying to flood our country with this poison.

01:32:24.100 We have a problem with all of our borders.

01:32:28.460 But a lot of people forget the U.S.-Canadian border is the longest land border between any two countries in the world.

01:32:35.420 So it's not just Blaine to Maine.

01:32:37.600 It's also the western frontier of Canada and the eastern side of Alaska.

01:32:42.700 We have porous borders or have had porous borders all around.

01:32:49.140 And it's not just the southwest borders, the northern border, and it's our ports of entry, especially on the waterways.

01:32:57.120 Exactly.

01:32:57.760 So don't think for one second, just because we're in better control of the southern border right now, that this problem is under control.

01:33:03.860 It's not.

01:33:05.080 And one of the things you learn from the documentary, Billy, is that it doesn't take much at all.

01:33:10.520 It's like a grain of salt that can make its way into a pill you thought was, like in Eric Bolling's son's case, a Xanax or like a Percocet or something that young people in particular might be taking, just, quote, to take the edge off or just maybe to get a temporary high.

01:33:25.620 It only takes a minuscule amount to kill.

01:33:28.280 Well, first of all, I mean, first of all, thank you so much, Megan, for having me.

01:33:32.640 And, you know, I know Eric indirectly through some college buddies of mine on Wall Street.

01:33:38.040 And I'm getting chills and a little bit clumped just hearing him, you know, his son didn't die in vain.

01:33:46.760 And the work that's going on right now, the loss of his son will save thousands and thousands of lives moving forward because we have programs that are working.

01:33:56.680 We do have solutions.

01:33:57.820 There is hope.

01:33:59.720 But, you know, right now we have 4.2% of the world's population.

01:34:04.420 We consume 38% of the world's fentanyl.

01:34:07.400 We have 66% of the global deaths from fentanyl.

01:34:11.740 A sugar packet, a sweet and low packet, has enough fentanyl in it to kill 500 people in a sugar packet you get in your coffee in the morning.

01:34:21.740 More people have died from fentanyl since 2019 in four and a half years than every casualty we've taken in World War II, Vietnam, Korea, Desert Shield, Desert Storm, Afghanistan, Kosovo.

01:34:37.960 Every casualty we've had, we had 58,000 plus die in the 15-year campaign in Vietnam, 58,000 plus.

01:34:46.060 We had 100,000 die last year alone.

01:34:49.680 Oh, my God.

01:34:50.580 We had double Vietnam in one year.

01:34:54.740 And this sounds like I'll say many controversial things that will probably make you very happy, Megan, with my position on this issue.

01:35:03.460 But, you know, it's kind of a blessing.

01:35:09.700 This is a hard thing to say, but it's a blessing that it's not just happening in super uneducated, poor Appalachian families or in Compton and in Watts.

01:35:20.900 The founder of YouTube, who's a multibillionaire, her son was at Berkeley a year and a half ago, 18-year-old freshman, same exact thing happened.

01:35:30.500 And in our documentary, you have a woman who said her girlfriend never did drugs.

01:35:34.980 She woke up one day, had a couple glasses of champagne at a sorority party or something, had a little bit of a hangover.

01:35:40.080 They said, here, take this.

01:35:41.240 This will make your hangover go away.

01:35:42.780 She took it.

01:35:43.340 She went back to bed to sleep above her hangover.

01:35:45.740 Never did drugs in her life.

01:35:47.240 And she never woke up.

01:35:49.060 And this is, it's such a national absolute catastrophe at this point with the numbers that it's got everybody's attention.

01:36:00.500 On the right, on the left, in the news media, everybody.

01:36:03.540 If you had to look at it, Doc, and say, you know, what's causing this?

01:36:07.700 My takeaway from watching the documentary, again, and it's called fentanyldeathincorporated.com, and it's going to be hitting soon.

01:36:15.540 I would say it's the Chinese who are providing these precursor ingredients, the Mexican cartels, which then take it the next level and very haphazardly put together a pill that's meant to resemble something that won't hurt you, but could not care less that it will kill you.

01:36:32.700 And then that 38% that Billy just mentioned of Americans who are, these are deaths of despair or decisions of despair to take pills, you know, in a lot of cases, not in all, but to take pills that you don't know the, you know, provenance of, to try to reach for a high on like a minute's notice for getting something from a stranger and taking enormous risks with your life.

01:36:54.080 Your thoughts?

01:36:55.860 This whole crisis really got going only 15 years ago.

01:36:59.900 This is a real recent deal.

01:37:02.120 And we have to understand, it really starts with, in the United States, with the Purdue Pharma crisis and scandal.

01:37:09.340 Yes.

01:37:09.820 Bad, bad actors.

01:37:12.440 We had millions of people on prescriptions.

01:37:15.440 We had hundreds of thousands addicted.

01:37:17.240 And when all the lawsuits happened and all the prescriptions stopped getting handed out, doled out, what happened was the Mexican cartels with China backfilled that supply in as quick as 90 days.

01:37:32.680 They, they, they, they're horrible people, horrible actors, but they're incredible entrepreneurs.

01:37:37.960 And they saw a market that was now not being served and they came in and backfilled it immediately.

01:37:45.180 And it would, and I think, and I went to China for three weeks on the movie, both research and shooting.

01:37:51.780 And I think in the beginning for China, it was about the money in the very, very beginning.

01:37:56.540 But now they've realized they can make money, not spend any of their own and destabilize their number one adversary while making money.

01:38:06.460 And so they had this unholy alliance between the Chinese Communist Party and the Mexican cartels.

01:38:13.880 And now it's moved up to Canada and now you have the biker gangs in Canada backfilling what the biker gangs, they're starting to backfill what the Mexican cartels were starting to do at the beginning.

01:38:28.180 You know, it's really crazy because Trump has been in the news for the tariff wars, I mean, for everything, but the tariff wars.

01:38:34.820 And one of the things he was saying about Canada was, I want them to crack down on the fentanyl crisis.

01:38:39.320 And I have to admit, a lot of people just kind of laughed at him. It's like, Canada is not the problem. Hello, it's Mexico.

01:38:45.460 But it wasn't until I saw your film that I was like, oh my God, actually, Canada is a huge part of the problem, Billy, because these cartels got smart and they realize, especially under Trump now, that the southern border is going to be more difficult.

01:39:01.260 And because we're so close with Canada, we've kept that much more porous.

01:39:04.260 Canada is not only a problem for America. Canada is a problem for Canada. Vancouver is a war zone right now.

01:39:12.460 Vancouver looks like Portland. I mean, it's really, really, really getting bad up there.

01:39:16.520 And you have to remember, this border, as Dr. Marvitt said, is the longest land border between two countries in the world.

01:39:22.140 Plus, we have the U.S. border to the north, not including Alaska.

01:39:25.320 And we have patrols that are literally in kayaks, on ATVs, on mountain bikes, and they can't cover it all.

01:39:36.080 Many of the people on the northern border that are working for border patrol are processing people being deported on the southern border.

01:39:43.320 They're doing paperwork. The northern patrol is doing the paperwork for people that are guarding the border in the south.

01:39:48.780 So we need to beefing up the northern border. And as you said, this is not going to be addressed only on the supply side.

01:39:57.700 The current Mexican president and previous Mexican president will tell you we can take out one or two cartels and five or six will grow back as long as the demand is there.

01:40:07.600 And if we're 4% of the world's population consuming nearly 40% of this drug and the profit is there,

01:40:13.840 if you take care of one cartel, someone else is going to come in from the Gulf of Mexico or they're going to come in from Cape Hatteras or they're going to come in on a kayak.

01:40:23.560 I mean, right now, as you saw in the documentary, there is a park in B.C. called Peace Arch Park.

01:40:30.020 And the beauty of our relationship with Canada is they want people to walk through the arch of the park and go to the other side of the border

01:40:35.480 and put down a blanket and not have a barbecue, have a picnic there.

01:40:39.580 And that's the beauty of our of our open border. Well, guess what? People are coming to that border with a backpack on.

01:40:45.600 They walk across the border. They get in an Uber. They go to Spokane or Seattle or Portland with 5000 hits of fentanyl.

01:40:53.800 And that's how it's getting across the border through Peace Arch Park.

01:40:57.800 And the film documents also at the southern border how they are very clever, the cartels.

01:41:01.720 They will intentionally send people to sneak across the border, which they know will attract the border patrol.

01:41:08.060 And they know exactly how many border patrol agents there.

01:41:10.060 They are to this area over here on the left, leaving open the area on the right and relatively unpatrolled.

01:41:15.760 And that's where they'll send across the carriers with the fentanyl, because the whole thing is a decoy to really get the drugs across the border and into the country.

01:41:23.840 That's much more lucrative for them than just, you know, sending whatever, getting paid to get people into the country illegally.

01:41:29.800 So it's extremely sophisticated. And not only we didn't even talk about yet, the cargo ships that come in, huge, huge cargo ships.

01:41:40.440 We check less than one percent of these. I think it's even lower than that.

01:41:43.960 And many of them have boxes and boxes of this stuff. So we're just it's coming in from all angles.

01:41:50.000 And Doc, you go through in the film how this thing a originated, how it came about, because it like wasn't a thing in the recent past.

01:41:58.860 It was it's a relatively new phenomenon. And also just for those listening at home, the fact that Narcan will not save you from a fentanyl overdose.

01:42:09.360 I think most people think it can. That's that drug they want you to have around in case somebody O.D.'s at a frat party or whatever.

01:42:15.440 Narcan will not be of any use to you if somebody O.D.'s on this drug.

01:42:20.000 And what we're starting to see now is fentanyl is getting mixed with so many different things like, of course, tranquilizer, even meth.

01:42:30.780 And so you have a high and a downer at the same thing. And it's really wreaking havoc on your heart.

01:42:37.120 And what we have to think about is things like Narcan are purely a short term fix.

01:42:43.500 And it will not fix the long run. It will not fix the intermediate.

01:42:47.820 And unless we start thinking about treatment and recovery and not getting addicted in the first place, Narcan will just postpone the death to another day unless you start getting the treatment and the recovery going.

01:43:02.340 And in the United States, we have really made it easy to get high and hard to get treatment rather than making it easy to get treatment and hard to get high.

01:43:12.560 That's one of the stunning things. Bill, you watch this film and we've covered it as a new show.

01:43:18.240 City after city has provided like clean needles or even a nurse who will be with you when you inject your drug or take your drug to make sure you don't die.

01:43:26.320 And you make the point over and over, you can find that very easily in the United States, finding treatment and rehabilitative systems or spots much, much harder.

01:43:37.280 And if you do find a place that's like a drug rehab that really works, they tend to be exorbitantly priced.

01:43:44.020 Most people can't afford them. It's just incredibly hard to get help.

01:43:47.740 Yeah, I think the the the left policies over the last 15 years of of no harm and low harm were very, very well intended that they haven't produced the results that they had hoped.

01:44:00.700 They have to course correct. Ironically, the the providing a safe place to get high was not a left policy.

01:44:08.180 That was the police department that didn't want to spread their resources out over many, many different places, say, in Portland or in Spokane or in Sacramento.

01:44:17.740 And they wanted to provide this so they can monitor it and control and make sure they were keeping people alive.

01:44:23.880 That was a policing tactic. But low bar and no bar is a big problem because they in California and in Portland and Seattle, they were talking about providing housing.

01:44:34.300 Well, it's great when you take a mentally ill addict who's homeless and provide housing.

01:44:38.980 You've checked one box. They're no longer homeless, but they're still mentally they're still mentally ill and they're still addicted to fentanyl.

01:44:46.240 So, you know, it leads us to when I have this conversation and I say it's going to require the kind of services that Dr.

01:44:53.580 Marbitt's providing for his haven of hope in San Antonio that services twenty seven hundred people with a success rate of over 70 percent, getting people on their feet, off out of the system, off the services, totally self-sufficient, totally independent.

01:45:08.380 And when I talk about 360 degree universal care, they're like, whoa, that sounds incredibly expensive.

01:45:15.440 How are we going to how who's going to pay for that? And I say you're already paying too much for not enough results.

01:45:21.700 Right now, you call 9-1-1. Fire department, police department, sheriffs, paramedics respond.

01:45:28.320 You pay. They go to the emergency room. You pay. They get admitted. You pay.

01:45:32.580 They go into the legal system, judges, lawyers, courtrooms. You pay. They get incarcerated. You pay.

01:45:38.240 Let's go downtown Main Street. We were in Seattle.

01:45:41.700 This gentleman, 21 year old kid blessing was overdosing. They hit him with Narcan, revived him.

01:45:48.260 They hit him with paddles, got his heart started again. He vomited.

01:45:51.760 He turned around and said to the fire department, get lost. I don't want your help.

01:45:55.020 That was right in front of the wharf in Seattle, the original Starbucks store.

01:45:59.720 And he was laying on the ground in front of the Nike store.

01:46:02.480 You have to say, how does that how is that affecting tourism, commerce, small business administration, property values?

01:46:10.260 They're all declining in northwestern cities. And we have to course correct.

01:46:14.360 We have to provide these universal services, 360 services, because you're already paying too much to not get enough results.

01:46:26.100 And Marvin, maybe you want to jump in here with some of the results of the care that's going on at Johns Hopkins and with CityGate and with you at Haven for Hope.

01:46:35.480 Think about this case with Blessing that Billy and I saw.

01:46:38.700 We had four firemen arrive. We had two EMS arrive. We had two sheriff people arrive.

01:46:47.180 We had three local downtown ambassadors arrive. These are all taxpayer funded people.

01:46:53.080 And they worked on them, got them alive enough. And then he refused treatment. He refused going.

01:46:59.340 And so that's why places like John Hopkins in Baltimore has a program with the Helping Up mission.

01:47:06.400 And they're working together.

01:47:08.480 So you have a secular university and a faith-based Christian mission working together.

01:47:14.480 And they're having phenomenal success.

01:47:16.880 So we know how to do this and we know how to do it right.

01:47:20.940 But it takes time.

01:47:22.340 It's not going to be you're not going to take somebody who's been addicted to drugs for 20 years and do it in a 28-day program or a 14-day program.

01:47:31.480 You need multiple months. But in the end, it's much more cost-effective to get success in real treatment and real recovery than the short-term expenses of Band-Aids that are the police department, the fire department, emergency room, emergency department, and the court systems.

01:47:49.680 Let me ask you this, doc. I don't understand totally because people can take fentanyl without dying.

01:47:56.520 I remember, you know, 15 years ago, I think my mom had a back surgery and they gave her a fentanyl lollipop.

01:48:03.260 And this is before that word meant anything to anybody.

01:48:06.240 You know, I was like, what's that? But boy, she was flying high.

01:48:09.120 And so it's not like if you just touch fentanyl or taste fentanyl, you'll die.

01:48:15.960 But what's happening? Like, is it corrupted fentanyl that's going into these pills?

01:48:20.060 Like, because I use the term OD on fentanyl, which that's not exactly it.

01:48:23.940 Like just a small, tiny amount of one time with fentanyl can kill you.

01:48:28.940 There's a huge difference between medical-grade fentanyl, like a cancer patch for stage 3, stage 4 cancer patients, or the lollipop post-surgery.

01:48:41.140 Or candidly, medical fentanyl has made heart surgery possible.

01:48:46.860 I mean, it's perfect because it slows your heart rate down. It slows your breathing down.

01:48:51.460 So fentanyl for open heart surgery is critical.

01:48:53.900 But the difference is when you're in those situations, they're highly regulated, and the dosing is very, very precise and done with precision.

01:49:06.540 And when you're in a medical situation, you have multiple people monitoring you.

01:49:11.200 The problem with street-level fentanyl, illicit fentanyl that's on the street, there is no regulation.

01:49:17.540 And so they make this batch not in a white-glove lab.

01:49:21.240 It's done in a jungle, a back alley, a burnout bus, and you don't know what you're getting.

01:49:28.000 It's a mix. It's not equal at the same time.

01:49:31.120 You might get part of the batch that has a lot of fentanyl, and the other part has none of it.

01:49:36.160 And so street-level illicit fentanyl is totally different than the fentanyl you get in a hospital.

01:49:43.540 Megan, can I jump in with something?

01:49:43.880 And then on top of that, they mislabel it.

01:49:45.680 Yeah, go ahead, Billy.

01:49:46.200 You know, getting back to this kid, Blessing, he was gone.

01:49:52.120 He was flatlined.

01:49:53.080 They revived him.

01:49:54.000 He vomited and turned over and said, I refuse your help.

01:49:58.180 And the reason they do this is not just because the high is so good.

01:50:02.420 They do this because the way they feel emotionally, psychologically, and physically when they're not on the drug is so terrifying.

01:50:08.960 It's so painful to them that they would rather risk their life.

01:50:13.740 We were speaking to the fire department in Spokane, and they had a 911 call for the same person six times in one day.

01:50:22.800 And this leads me to something that's radical that I'm going to say that doesn't sound very left because they talk about the freedom, the freedom, the freedom.

01:50:30.000 Someone does have the freedom to get high.

01:50:31.440 Someone does have the freedom to be homeless.

01:50:32.700 Someone has the freedom to do drugs, and if they overdose and they die, that is free.

01:50:37.240 But not when it costs you and me, the taxpayers, money.

01:50:40.860 That's not freedom for us to have to pay for the emergency room and for incarceration and for all the different ways in which this is affecting our lives.

01:50:47.300 So I've done conservatorships before.

01:50:49.860 A definition of a conservatorship is a threat to your life and others or you harm yourself or others.

01:50:58.180 Clearly, this kid, Blessing, was a threat to himself and others overdosing and flatlining on the street.

01:51:05.180 Clearly, he was a harm to himself and others.

01:51:07.340 I am suggesting, and I'm not an expert, I want to leave it to the professionals, the paramedics, the lawyers, the doctors,

01:51:14.640 all of those people that have the nonprofits that have their sleeves rolled up and they're getting their hands dirty,

01:51:18.840 literally in the encampments, like I did for a long time, but the encampments and the shelters,

01:51:24.220 I want to give them the ability to take conservatorship out of the courts.

01:51:29.900 And if Blessing says, no, I'm not going, and a fireman and a paramedic and a sheriff or a cop or a nonprofit say,

01:51:37.480 you're going.

01:51:39.280 And that person is taken against their will because they are clearly a threat to themselves and others

01:51:44.700 and they have clearly harmed themselves.

01:51:47.380 And if you put it in the court system, it's a ticking clock, it's a ticking bomb

01:51:50.820 where you're waiting for them to potentially harm somebody else.

01:51:53.600 So I don't know how long they should be held.

01:51:56.340 But a 72-hour hold is probably not long enough from what I've learned.

01:52:00.420 So if they're held five, seven, ten days and they can get to a more detox, clear-headed position

01:52:06.780 where they say, you're right, I do need the services, I do need the help,

01:52:10.800 I'll go into a three- or four-month program.

01:52:13.320 Or if they say, no, I want to go back on the streets,

01:52:15.580 at least they've done it from a more sober, clear-headed perspective.

01:52:18.980 And I'm wondering if we should take the conservatorships as a pilot program,

01:52:22.880 take it away from the judges and the lawyers in the courtrooms

01:52:25.720 and put it in the hands of people that know far better than they do.

01:52:28.360 That makes perfect sense because you point out in the documentary

01:52:31.380 that you actually can't detox off of fentanyl on your own.

01:52:37.900 You actually must have medical assistance there, doc.

01:52:41.380 So why would we be taking the word of an active addict to fentanyl for anything on the street?

01:52:47.920 Why wouldn't there be a mandatory, no, you're going into mandatory detox

01:52:51.820 where for five to seven days, whatever the appropriate period is,

01:52:55.680 we will get you off this drug and then we can talk about what comes next.

01:53:00.260 We have some people from Seattle in our documentary who address this.

01:53:04.820 They say if you were to go and go on a bridge and say you're going to commit suicide

01:53:11.020 and get ready to jump and somebody calls 911

01:53:14.920 or you get one of those bridge phones that they call, the police come,

01:53:18.920 they don't just sit there and take you off the bridge and say,

01:53:21.600 well, are you okay, you promise not to jump, we'll leave you right there and then roll on.

01:53:26.560 They take you there.

01:53:28.640 Why is that not different with fentanyl?

01:53:31.080 Because we know fentanyl is so deadly now.

01:53:34.840 You will not meet somebody who is a fentanyl addict that's been on fentanyl for over 18 months.

01:53:40.640 Most addicts die within eight or nine months.

01:53:43.700 A few will make it out to 18 months.

01:53:46.200 So why would we not treat you like a jumper?

01:53:49.660 Why wouldn't we treat you like we need to take you in?

01:53:52.380 We need medical detox because that's the only way you're going to get down.

01:53:57.240 And after you go, and we're not talking years of holding,

01:54:00.760 we're talking five, six, seven, eight, nine days.

01:54:04.020 Get past that medical recovery and then have an honest conversation,

01:54:08.840 a clear-headed conversation about what do we need to do for treatment and recovery?

01:54:13.880 Because Billy and I have gone in multiple cities around this country with police departments,

01:54:19.960 and we roll up on these fentanyl desks.

01:54:23.200 They're literally dead on the street, and they get them recovered, they get them back,

01:54:27.700 and they refuse to go in and treatment.

01:54:31.340 And they're not in a place mentally to make a clean-headed decision to say,

01:54:39.620 I want to go in for treatment.

01:54:40.620 In the film, some of these people have taken a fentanyl version that's mixed with this horse

01:54:45.240 tranquilizer, which literally makes their skin peel off of their bodies.

01:54:52.180 And you show pictures of people this is happening to.

01:54:54.920 This is not a person who is in a position to make the right decisions for his wellness.

01:55:00.260 But back to the other issue, too.

01:55:02.120 I wanted to ask you this, Billy.

01:55:03.360 When I was at NBC, I interviewed this family, the Savage family.

01:55:08.080 And they had, I think, four boys, and the two oldest boys were 18 and 19.

01:55:13.440 And they did not OD on fentanyl, but they came back from college.

01:55:17.980 The one came back from college.

01:55:19.020 I think the other was a senior in high school.

01:55:20.700 She waited up for them.

01:55:21.980 They got home at midnight.

01:55:22.980 And unbeknownst to her, they had, prior to leaving this party, both taken a pill that

01:55:29.780 they thought was like a Xanax or something like that.

01:55:32.720 And it was an opiate, an opioid of some kind.

01:55:36.380 And it killed them both.

01:55:38.780 And this poor mom woke up the next morning thinking her kids were safe asleep.

01:55:42.800 She had seen them home from the party, only to wake up the next morning to find out her

01:55:46.560 18 and 19-year-old boys.

01:55:48.600 I know.

01:55:49.160 It's horrific.

01:55:50.260 But one of the things she said to me was, I'm a nurse.

01:55:54.460 And her husband was there, too.

01:55:55.760 And they said, we talked to our boys about drugs, about all the dangers.

01:56:01.640 You know, we were aware of the dangers, but we hadn't thought about this.

01:56:07.440 Like a friend gives you a pill at a party and you should not trust it.

01:56:13.380 Or you're at a friend's house and they take a bottle out of their mom's medicine cabinet.

01:56:17.820 Yeah, I, I, I, my friends laugh when I say this, because I say to my children all the

01:56:23.960 time, when I was in college, someone would walk up and you'd, I went to Binghamton and

01:56:28.860 you'd have people from Albany and from Cornell and from Syracuse come to visit for the weekend.

01:56:33.100 And somebody would walk up, that was your buddy, but their friends from Syracuse and Albany would

01:56:37.120 walk up, somebody would light up a joint and say, yo, you want to hit?

01:56:40.800 They'd start passing it around.

01:56:41.840 And I said to my, my children, those days are over.

01:56:45.020 You literally put your drink down and you go to the bathroom, you come back and the

01:56:48.380 drink's still there, throw it out.

01:56:50.200 You'll make yourself another drink.

01:56:51.400 Those days are over.

01:56:52.680 And when I have this sort of bring your own stash mentality, my kids are like, oh, great

01:56:57.200 parenting there, Baldwin.

01:56:58.680 But I know, I know the kids are going to do some of this that they're going to have.

01:57:02.600 They're in college.

01:57:03.240 My kids go to USC.

01:57:04.260 They're going to, they're going to have a beer.

01:57:06.900 They're going to have a cocktail.

01:57:07.780 They're going to have a tequila.

01:57:08.440 They're going to have a joint.

01:57:09.180 You just have to be, be very, very careful.

01:57:12.040 Another point I wanted to touch upon, which I think is important, Megan, is the criminalization

01:57:16.320 of this.

01:57:17.120 When generations ago, when my father's generation, when people got in trouble, judges would say,

01:57:23.960 I'm going to give you a choice.

01:57:25.200 You got five years in, you got, you got five years in jail or you got five years in the

01:57:28.600 army.

01:57:29.660 Do you choose?

01:57:30.400 You go to the, and it would depend on the type of crime, all sorts of variables, but they

01:57:34.140 gave them a choice to either go to prison or to go into, into the service.

01:57:38.440 To rehabilitate turned a lot of lives around.

01:57:42.380 We have to raise this from a misdemeanor to a felony.

01:57:45.460 We have to get a lot of this into drug court.

01:57:47.600 And we have to say to a lot of these people, you're going to prison for two years, not just

01:57:51.920 dealers, repeat offenders that are users.

01:57:54.220 You're going to prison for two years, or you're going to a government paid for facility.

01:57:59.900 The government will pay for it.

01:58:01.120 You choose six months in rehab or two years in prison.

01:58:04.740 You're going to one or the other.

01:58:05.880 You're not going back out on the street.

01:58:06.960 They have to change the legality of this.

01:58:09.940 By the way, what years were you at Binghamton?

01:58:11.860 Can I ask that?

01:58:13.020 81 to 85.

01:58:14.800 Oh yeah.

01:58:15.120 You're a little before my time, but I was at Syracuse.

01:58:16.680 I was at Syracuse in 88 to 92.

01:58:19.380 My mother, my father, and all four of my grandparents graduated from Syracuse.

01:58:24.600 Oh, nice.

01:58:25.380 Go orange.

01:58:26.140 All right.

01:58:26.420 Well, so I was not offered a joint by you because we weren't in the same place at the

01:58:30.560 same time.

01:58:31.180 But let's not pretend nobody ever offered you a joint, okay?

01:58:34.120 Because I know that you went to Syracuse.

01:58:35.280 I've been offered.

01:58:36.400 But can I say something?

01:58:37.320 My audience knows I've never tried a drug.

01:58:39.080 I mean, I've done alcohol, but that's it.

01:58:40.880 No drugs.

01:58:41.640 I don't know.

01:58:41.940 I'm sort of a Pollyanna, I guess, in that lane.

01:58:44.380 But doc, I mean, even more so now.

01:58:46.600 I mean, I'll talk to my kids about this too.

01:58:48.620 Like, you can't take a pill.

01:58:50.400 You can't take a thing.

01:58:51.340 You think you're not taking fentanyl.

01:58:52.640 You think you're taking like a muscle relaxant or something to take the edge off before a big exam.

01:58:56.040 What you're really taking is your life in your hands.

01:58:59.440 And you had Tom Wolfe there in the bumper right up in the front there.

01:59:05.720 Seventy percent of all street-level drugs now have some part of fentanyl in it.

01:59:11.840 And when you're talking about two grains of salt equivalent can kill anybody,

01:59:17.540 or one grain of rice can kill 15 people of equivalent of fentanyl.

01:59:23.440 So we have to realize how potent these drugs are, especially fentanyl.

01:59:28.880 And the idea that we legalize fentanyl across large, many states across the country legalized

01:59:35.820 fentanyl, either by statute and said, we're no longer going to prosecute,

01:59:40.820 or by prosecutors choosing not to prosecute.

01:59:45.000 The good news is, even in states like California, this was sort of lost in the presidential election.

01:59:51.200 But the voters of California voted to override the California legislature and say,

01:59:57.680 we're now going to start recriminalizing high-end and high-volume, really potent drugs and high-volume drugs.

02:00:05.340 And the citizens of California overrode their legislature two to one,

02:00:10.780 saying, we want to get back and recriminalize this.

02:00:14.200 This idea of misdemeanor or saying, we're never going to prosecute for something as powerful as fentanyl.

02:00:22.120 Just, it was nutty.

02:00:24.060 It failed.

02:00:24.900 I know it may have been well-intended, but it did not work.

02:00:29.100 All right.

02:00:29.700 So last but not least, fentanyldeathincorporated.com.

02:00:35.080 But when they go there, the movie's not yet posted.

02:00:38.020 When is it actually going to be posted?

02:00:39.540 Because now they're going to want to watch it.

02:00:40.620 So it'll be coming out.

02:00:42.880 Warner Brothers is our partner in this project, and they'll be able to see it streaming this coming summer.

02:00:49.700 And Warner Brothers will be pushing it out on multiple platforms.

02:00:53.820 Okay.

02:00:54.160 Well, we'll give it another push when it hits.

02:00:56.000 You guys let us know.

02:00:57.020 This is too important.

02:00:58.040 And I really appreciate you doing this.

02:01:00.980 I'll just say this before you go.

02:01:02.240 Well, to you in particular, Billy, we've had some actors who get behind a cause of one sort or another, and they won't come on the show because they think I'm a conservative or my audience is more conservative.

02:01:14.720 And I find it just shameful because conservatives have kids, too, and they have addiction problems, too.

02:01:19.840 And I really respect the fact that I'm sure we disagree on virtually all matters political, but that you came here anyway out of respect to my audience.

02:01:29.620 Well, I'm thrilled that you had me.

02:01:31.680 I'll come back again.

02:01:32.700 And you should know that Marbert and I thought we would disagree on everything, and we were making a scripted feature on homelessness called No Address.

02:01:39.120 And we sat in the lobby on the set and in the lobby, and all we did was discuss issue after issue after issue where we thought we were on opposite ends of the spectrum, and we realized that 80% of it we agree on, 10% is negotiable, and 10% we'll never agree on.

02:01:54.620 And we live in this world where we're being driven apart, where we have more in common.

02:01:58.780 There's more consensus.

02:02:00.440 There's more agreement than people realize on controversial issues.

02:02:06.580 Yeah, as you proved here today.

02:02:09.700 Thank you.

02:02:10.040 Thank you both.

02:02:10.580 Easy to work on mental health.

02:02:11.780 Easy to work on homelessness, mental health, and fentanyl.

02:02:14.560 Trickier to work on the Second Amendment or campaign finance reform or something like that.

02:02:18.740 But you'd be surprised how much we have in common on that issue, Megan.

02:02:23.560 Well, and one day we have to talk about the fact that you went to high school with the accused Long Island serial killer.

02:02:30.680 Seventh grade through twelfth grade, yes.

02:02:33.080 Rex Hewerman was.

02:02:35.180 How?

02:02:35.380 I was class president.

02:02:37.340 He'd see me and say, how you doing, Billy?

02:02:38.700 Rex, what's going on?

02:02:39.460 We were in classes together.

02:02:40.980 My lifeguard stand at Tobey Beach was 500 feet from that burial in Gilgo.

02:02:48.160 Oh, my God.

02:02:49.000 Did he seem normal?

02:02:51.160 Yeah.

02:02:51.520 Yeah.

02:02:51.660 He sort of ran with a group of kids that didn't, they were like AV squad guys.

02:02:57.080 They were like tech geeks before the internet.

02:02:59.600 Yep.

02:03:00.100 Yeah.

02:03:00.260 He ran with a group of guys like that, very bright, and yeah.

02:03:03.120 I got to just ask you, like when you heard the story, did your jaw drop?

02:03:06.880 Were you like, what?

02:03:09.340 Yeah, it's funny.

02:03:10.500 One of my friends from Mass People sent this to me and goes, you're not going to believe this breaking story.

02:03:14.360 And I put out a tweet that said, I just woke up this morning to find out that Rex Hewerman, the Gilgo Beach killer, was my, not my friend or my buddy or anything, but my classmate that I knew for six years.

02:03:23.800 And that got a lot of interest.

02:03:27.560 People were reaching.

02:03:28.120 It was very stunning because people said, did you see it coming?

02:03:30.340 And I absolutely did not see it coming.

02:03:32.320 Absolutely did not see it.

02:03:33.460 Oh, my gosh.

02:03:34.000 He wasn't a super loner.

02:03:36.420 He wasn't a person that you would ever suspect it was like, you know, harming animals in his backyard or in his bedroom.

02:03:43.500 Nothing like that.

02:03:44.400 Nothing like that.

02:03:45.380 Some of his best friends were my neighbors where I grew up in Massapequa.

02:03:48.160 And there were guys that they did get bullied a little bit, some of those guys, but I don't know where it all went off the rails and where it went wrong.

02:03:56.800 I don't know.

02:03:57.900 Tragic.

02:03:58.380 You never know.

02:04:00.180 Guys, thank you again so much.

02:04:01.840 Again, I want to tell the audience, go check it out.

02:04:04.340 Fentanyldeathincorporated.com and think about what we talked about today.

02:04:07.980 Have that tough conversation with your kids, even if you think you've already had it, and with your friends, and with everybody you possibly can.

02:04:14.320 Because too many people think they know and they don't.

02:04:17.260 All the best to you guys.

02:04:18.540 God bless.

02:04:19.300 You too.

02:04:22.120 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show.

02:04:24.340 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - April 29, 2025

Tucker Carlson on Michelle Obama, Newsom and AOC, and Fentanyl Crisis in America, with Billy Baldwin and Dr. Robert Marbut ｜ Ep. 1060

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