The Megyn Kelly Show - Tuesday's Red Wave and the Kyle Rittenhouse Trial, with Victor Davis Hanson, Jonna Spilbor, and Arthur Aidala

00:00:00.500 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:11.380 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. We have a big show for you

00:00:15.400 today, the fallout from Virginia still being felt, not just Virginia, but many states nationwide.

00:00:20.860 As President Biden and the media weigh in on how that state and so many other districts went so

00:00:27.900 red so fast. Plus, we've got new information on vaccines and vaccine mandates today, and the

00:00:34.940 Kyle Rittenhouse trial gets underway. We have our all-star legal panel here a bit later to talk

00:00:40.220 about that, along with the latest in the Alec Baldwin case. The Armorer has just put out a

00:00:44.500 statement, and Alec Baldwin is tweeting now again. So we'll get to all that. But first, we have

00:00:49.680 Victor Davis Hanson, author of The Dying Citizen, who is back with us. This is Dr. Fauci, right at

00:00:56.420 this moment is testifying before a Senate hearing again today, and he just had another contentious

00:01:02.820 exchange with Senator Rand Paul, which we are going to show you in one second. Victor, great to have

00:01:07.900 you. Before we dive into what's going on between Rand Paul and Dr. Fauci, let's talk about Tuesday and

00:01:14.860 your takeaway, because as the audience now knows, it's not just about what happened in Virginia. It's

00:01:20.000 about people voting Republican up and down the ballot, writing in candidates to avoid socialists,

00:01:27.720 voting for Republicans like Ed Durr in New Jersey, the guy who unseated this very powerful Senate

00:01:35.240 Democrat, State Senate Democrat in New Jersey, with $153 spent total on his, I mean, they just voted

00:01:41.520 Republican. And your takeaway from them doing that was what?

00:01:44.980 Well, they were all in blue states, weren't they? Whether they were initiatives or local races or

00:01:51.120 statewide races, whether it's New Jersey or Minneapolis or Virginia, or even the law and

00:01:59.740 order mayor that was really running as a conservative in New York in comparative terms. So I think we're

00:02:06.100 starting to see that people have concluded that wokeness that was an abstraction on the national level

00:02:11.840 is done two things. It's making life impossible to live, whether that on the national level means you can't

00:02:18.620 afford out here in California $5 gas or your natural gas bill, I just got mine, it's double $4 for natural gas

00:02:27.680 per cubic thousand feet. And when you look at you can't buy a car, you can't buy your shelves are empty. You don't

00:02:35.380 want to walk out Los Angeles or San Francisco at night anymore. So what I'm getting and there is no border, it's not

00:02:41.200 porous, Megan, there is no border, it doesn't exist. And we're starting to see people who are bussed into my

00:02:45.820 community from the border. So people are concluding that on the national level, it's not viable. And

00:02:53.300 that's what the polls show, but it's filtering down to the local level. So wokesters that are the

00:02:59.800 versions of the Biden administration are everywhere. And they're trying to advance those agendas and they

00:03:04.620 affect people's lives, whether it's the schools that have these transgendered issues or critical race

00:03:10.680 theory. And people are saying, this isn't political. This is whether America continues to exist and it

00:03:16.900 makes it possible to live. And with high inflation and high energy prices and an open border and a

00:03:25.740 collapsing foreign policy, it looks like a complete systems collapse. And then when they ask for answers,

00:03:31.420 they say, wait a minute, this wasn't Katrina. This wasn't the Gulf War. This wasn't the old Iranian

00:03:37.460 oil boycott. All of these problems were self-induced. We decided not to pump oil. We asked Putin

00:03:44.440 and Saudi Arabia to do it instead so that we didn't have to get our hands dirty, but they would.

00:03:49.860 We didn't have suddenly, you know, the wall collapse on the border. We did that on the border. We did that

00:03:55.820 with critical race. We ginned up this racial animosity, we being the government. And so people, when they

00:04:01.440 get angry and they ask for answers, and it's basically two things, you're a racist for asking

00:04:07.000 and Donald Trump's responsible. But in case of Trump, he hasn't tweeted. He's barred. He's been

00:04:14.240 given a great gift by social media. He can't communicate. So people are thinking, well, he's

00:04:19.920 not tweeting this crazy stuff. So I just remember that his agenda was better than Biden's. And so a lot

00:04:26.340 of things are happening. It's in flux right now. But I think the woke wave has broken. It's at peak

00:04:31.920 woke and we're going on the downside. It's so true. It's they took away Trump's sort of worst

00:04:37.960 characteristic, you know, his impetuousness, his thin skin nature, which he communicated through

00:04:43.560 Twitter. And you're right. While it's left standing is sort of the vague memory of some of those things

00:04:48.580 and policy and contrasted with our current policies. It's it's doing pretty well. I wonder what you

00:04:55.360 think, because to me, it was almost like a reality check where if you turn on the news, if you watch

00:04:59.720 Hollywood movies or television shows, if you watch sports, if you watch the NBA, MLB, NFL the past year,

00:05:07.880 we all we've gotten is the same kind of messaging. You know, these woke warriors telling us how bad

00:05:13.420 America is and how we finally need to come to terms with it. And that what's being shoved down our kids

00:05:19.000 throats in school is not it's not CRT. It's just, you know, benign history lessons about

00:05:25.060 slavery, about Jim Crow and anybody who tells you the opposite is lying to you. And the schools are

00:05:31.280 doing their best to get open and the teachers are trying hard. That's been the messaging. And it's

00:05:36.860 been very much a don't believe your lion eyes kind of messaging back to American voters who know this

00:05:43.360 isn't true. They've been feeling it. So going into Tuesday, I wondered what what's real? Who's going

00:05:52.540 to have the final verdict here? The ones who are on the television all the time telling us not to

00:05:57.860 believe the lion eyes or the real voters who may say one thing in front of their corporation or,

00:06:03.800 you know, be too afraid to take a bold stance even at the school board meeting or by liking a post

00:06:09.820 on Facebook because they could get in trouble, but are going to do what's in their heart and what

00:06:14.820 they know to be right when they're in those ballot boxes. Yeah, I think what it shows is that the echo

00:06:21.280 chamber that you're talking about this 360 degree, I guess you'd call it panopticon that just we're

00:06:27.560 surrounded by it really doesn't have popular support by that. I mean, there's enormous influence in the

00:06:33.540 media, in academia, K through 12, what we saw in Virginia, the corporate boardroom, professional

00:06:39.660 sports, foundations, the traditional network news, PBS, but they don't represent the majority of the

00:06:47.080 people. So they, as you said, they created a false impression that this was the future and everybody

00:06:52.140 had agreed on it. But when people, you know, sat home and contemplated, they said, wait a minute,

00:06:57.660 there was no mandate in that election. It was 50-50 in the Senate. The House has a thin margin.

00:07:04.280 It looks like there's going to be a correction in two years. And I don't have to take this anymore.

00:07:09.660 And again, we're not talking about Idaho or Oklahoma or Tennessee. We're talking about places like New

00:07:15.340 Jersey and Virginia and Minnesota and New York. So this is the bluest of the blue places. And even

00:07:21.620 there, people said, this isn't political for me anymore. It may have been political in the start,

00:07:27.040 but now it's just simply question is where they're going to have America or we're going to have

00:07:31.960 something that I don't know what it is, but it's not America that I know. It's not based on the

00:07:37.580 constitution. It's not based on our customs and traditions. It's not based on the majority of

00:07:41.900 support of the people. And it won't work economically, culturally, politically, socially, it doesn't work.

00:07:49.640 And the chaos is there for all of us to see it. And when they get press, these are very liberal people,

00:07:55.620 we're told, that believe in free speech and let it all hang out and do your own thing. They don't.

00:08:00.940 They call in Merrick Garland to sic the FBI on people, or they have weaponized the IRS, or they get

00:08:06.840 the Pentagon to enact the chain of command, fast track, or the woke agenda. So people also said,

00:08:13.620 these Silicon Valley people, these people in the Pentagon, James Comey and the FBI, these are not liberals.

00:08:18.880 This isn't Frank Church investigating the CIA in the 1970s as a Democrat. These people are,

00:08:25.900 I don't know what we're going to call them. Historians might say they're Jacobins, but they're

00:08:30.340 neo-Bolsheviks. They do not want any objections. They do not want any cross-examination because they

00:08:37.860 don't have a majority support. They rely on institutional support that they can control

00:08:44.300 and bully. And they have great wealth and influence at their back, but they do not have 51 percent of

00:08:49.600 the people. For, you know, several years now, I mean, since Donald Trump came onto the national

00:08:54.920 scene as a politician, but certainly over the past year since Joe Biden became president,

00:08:59.640 we've been told that basically anybody on the right is a racist. Certainly if you voted for Trump,

00:09:04.720 you're a racist. And now, of course, in Virginia, if you voted for Glenn Youngkin, you're a racist.

00:09:10.560 If you voted for the lieutenant governor there, Winsome Sears, who's a black woman,

00:09:16.200 you're still a racist because she's white adjacent. She's sort of become white in the eyes

00:09:20.520 of the left. You can sort of morph into whiteness, even if you're black, basically by being a Republican

00:09:26.340 or even a white supremacist, if your name is Larry Elder and so on. To me, it almost is starting to

00:09:31.580 have, I mean, before it was obviously untrue, but to me, in the wake of what we've seen on Tuesday,

00:09:37.020 it's starting to feel pathetic. And I'll, Gravian does these great mashups, super cuts of

00:09:43.840 the liberal media and what they say and sort of the narrative. They're very effective super cuts

00:09:49.320 because they really do gather, quote, the narrative, capital T, capital N. You'd think

00:09:54.420 that a memo goes out, but having been in the media at ABC, at NBC, at Fox, I can tell you there is no

00:09:59.560 massive memo that goes out telling you how to start talking about things, whether you're in your left

00:10:03.540 wing or right wing media. But most people on the left are in the same ecosystem and they just

00:10:08.820 believe it. So they don't need a big memo. And so Gravian captures some of that here. You tell me

00:10:14.000 to me, it's just starting to feel kind of sad and desperate. Listen. Yeah. Voters do have anxiety

00:10:20.640 about a changing America, right? That it is blacker. It is browner. You've got the Republicans

00:10:26.560 yelling like, hey, look, the black and brown folks are coming for us. Some Republican candidates

00:10:31.480 are perfectly willing to use race as a motivating factor for their base that has gone on for decades

00:10:39.080 and it happened this year. Race is just the most palpable tool in the toolkit. It used to be of the

00:10:44.940 Democratic Party back in the day when there were Dixiecrats and now of the Republican Party. This is

00:10:48.860 about the fact that a good chunk of voters out there are OK with white supremacy. Let's call a

00:10:54.700 thing a thing. Your thoughts, Victor? Translated, that means that this woke takeover is very careful

00:11:01.900 that people will not support it any longer by their indifference. They never supported it actively.

00:11:07.000 But passively, I guess they did by not objecting to it. What do we mean by that? That we mean

00:11:11.940 of universities massively hiring people to be really commissars, diversity, equity, inclusion people,

00:11:19.740 or to give preferences in hiring by race or to be disproportionate in racially selecting actors

00:11:28.360 or roles. In other words, it's not just proportional representation of the past. It's disparate. It's

00:11:34.320 sort of repertory ideas that we're going to have so many. We're going to have 20% or 30% of African

00:11:39.460 Americans who weren't commercials to make up for this, but it's just engineering. And the beneficiaries

00:11:44.380 of it are, we don't talk about class, Megan, but all the people that you show, they're very affluent

00:11:50.820 people. Don Lemon, just to take an example, is very affluent. LeBron is very affluent. The Obamas are

00:11:56.680 affluent. They're all privileged. And the people I work with in the university of all different ethnic

00:12:01.120 backgrounds that are woke are very privileged. This was a top-down elite squabble for people who said,

00:12:08.580 I want more airtime. I want a better role. I should get this. I'm a Jesse Smollett. I wanted to get

00:12:13.220 this role. Or, you know, I want to have four classes in the morning and not in the afternoon.

00:12:20.360 It's a squabble. It's not, you can see from the elections, it's not a grassroots, bottom-up,

00:12:26.700 populist demand that we do this stuff. And I think that's really hurting them. They don't talk about

00:12:32.600 class at all. But when you, as we said earlier, I think in a broadcast, when you have Oprah talking

00:12:37.540 to Meghan Markle and then Obama's weighing in on it or lecturing people, they all have something in

00:12:44.020 common. And that is they're from the very, very elite. And it doesn't sound convincing that they're

00:12:50.100 victimized. And that's why the lieutenant governor was so, Winston Cleary was so convincing because she

00:12:59.700 said, I'm very privileged. I'm very happy to be in America. It's the greatest thing that ever

00:13:06.720 happened. And then there's this empirical evidence they just don't deal with. Two million people

00:13:11.280 destitute, the majority in their definition, not white, but risking their life to break into the

00:13:17.500 United States, which is supposedly a toxic, racist place where they would have no future. They know

00:13:22.580 that's not true. They know that what their whole agenda is, is to bully, bully, threaten, cancel,

00:13:31.480 topple, deface, rename. And then therefore, they'll say, well, you give me the following concessions

00:13:39.160 and we'll stop. Of course, they'll never stop. They only get more bolder the more that you appease

00:13:43.920 them. And so they don't have a rational agenda. They don't have one that appeals to the majority of

00:13:50.220 people. And they're not going to stop me again. I think there's a lot of pundits after the election

00:13:55.620 said, well, they're going to make a correction. And I think I said on Fox, I don't think they will.

00:14:00.080 I think they're going to say, you pointed out, I think, that if you lost in Virginia, it was because

00:14:06.680 there was racism or it didn't matter or Virginia is always the opposite of what Washington is doing

00:14:14.060 or there was voter suppression. But they're never going to say, we have a message that's

00:14:19.520 extremist that alienates our own independent and mostly liberal voters. And we better change or

00:14:26.180 we're going to end up like George McGovern or something. I think they're going to go over the

00:14:31.460 cliff. And we're all divided, aren't we? We think, well, maybe they should just keep doing this for

00:14:38.320 two years. But look at the damage they did in 10 months. And some of these some of this damage is

00:14:44.620 not collateral. It's institutionalized. Yeah, I don't want to go on. I don't want to go on.

00:14:50.200 Institutionalized, but it's actually in the school setting, whether it's the covid mandates and

00:14:53.980 restrictions or the CRT and the trans and the highly sexualized lessons they're giving them.

00:14:58.960 It's abusive. It has to stop. It has to stop yesterday. And I do feel like in the latter lane,

00:15:04.640 either we're going to stop them, you know, at the voting box or the they're going to just get the

00:15:11.340 lesson after a night like Tuesday and realize it's not in their political fortunes. It's not

00:15:17.260 good for their political fortunes to keep doing as they've been doing. I don't know. I guess it

00:15:21.680 depends on where you fall on the Democrat ideological scale. It seems like if you are there still moderates

00:15:27.640 in the Democratic Party, if you were more moderate, you might be taking a correction from Tuesday night as

00:15:32.760 your lesson and say, you know, like it sound like James Carville saying you've got to go to woke

00:15:36.780 detoxification. This is an insane thing to be incorporated into Democratic politics. We need

00:15:42.260 to distance ourselves from these far left luxury, you know, scolds or not. Because to me, most of the

00:15:50.340 Democrats, even if they're moderate, are beholden to the to seeking the love and approval of the

00:15:56.520 wokesters in their party and will not willingly cross them because they don't have the stomach for being

00:16:01.820 called the names. Yeah, I think that's true. And I think that things are very vulnerable. You

00:16:07.040 notice how sensitive they are when people say you're racist. You're the one that's tribalizing

00:16:11.480 America. You're the one that's saying our superficial appearance is everything to our persona. It's not

00:16:16.440 incidental, according to you. And that's why you, you know, we're, we're all black, black, black,

00:16:21.400 or Latino. We're not just people. And then second, you're very wealthy people. You're very privileged.

00:16:26.020 You've had a lot of opportunities, and you're doing quite well. And those are two charges that

00:16:31.540 they just plead from. They don't like the idea that anybody would ever suspect them of being

00:16:36.660 illiberal and racist or privileged and elite. And I think people have to keep making those charges

00:16:43.240 because that's what they really, really don't like. The other thing is that we're getting the

00:16:48.100 stages of reaction to woke. At first, it was bewilderment. People said, my God, nobody's serious

00:16:54.800 about this. You don't defund the police, or you don't just end the border and make it, you know,

00:17:00.580 northern Mexico and the United States, one country. You don't do that. Or you, you, nobody in their

00:17:06.120 right mind would, would tell fractures and horizontal drillers when we're energy independent

00:17:10.760 and we're doing so well without having to worry about Middle East oil that we're going to go back

00:17:16.160 and cut 2 million barrels plus out of development. But, so they were bewildered. And then they got kind

00:17:22.200 of fearful and said, wow, these people destroy careers. They make you have this indoctrination

00:17:29.940 training at work. Friends that you know won't speak out. And now they're angry. And I don't know

00:17:38.000 what falls after angry, but they want this to end. And they're going to vote, they're going to protest,

00:17:44.880 and they're not going to stop. And I think the left is terrified because they have, as I said earlier,

00:17:49.840 it's a minority of you. And I think if everybody will just kind of transcend, it used to be that

00:17:54.840 we were living in a monastery of our minds. A lot of people said, I don't watch the NBA anymore.

00:17:59.580 I'm done with it. I don't watch network news. I'm done with it. I don't go to the movies and get

00:18:03.840 that Hollywood crap anymore. I'm done with it. I don't really want my child to go to a prestigious

00:18:10.700 school anymore because I know what's going to happen when they come home for Christmas.

00:18:14.080 But now, and they kind of drop out of popular culture. They don't listen to particular types

00:18:19.460 of music. They don't know. Now I think they thought, you know what? Passive resistance wasn't

00:18:24.380 enough. I've got to get mobile. I was speaking to some women's group this last week in Seattle

00:18:30.660 and Los Angeles and in Central California. I have never seen, Megan, so many bright, active

00:18:37.480 women and not all white women, Asian women, Hispanic women. And I'm talking in the age group of 60 to

00:18:44.660 85 who are angry and they are organized and they had enormous people come out. And I've never seen

00:18:53.780 it my entire life, how angry they are. I've never seen it either, just in my own friend group,

00:18:58.540 most of whom are liberals, just because I've been living in New York for the past 20 years.

00:19:01.980 There's angry, red-pilled secret meetings, organization, finding ways to fight back,

00:19:09.200 celebrating these electoral results, even though they may still be registered Democrats.

00:19:13.680 And then they turn on the news and they're told this was all a conservative push. This is like

00:19:19.600 conservative racists who made this happen and oblivion to the fact that, no, independents have

00:19:25.300 rejected the Biden agenda. A lot of Democrats have rejected the Biden agenda. The working class,

00:19:30.940 you look at those, the white women who put Glenn Youngkin over the top, most of whom 75% were

00:19:38.120 without a college. If you, if you were a white woman without a college degree, you went, they went

00:19:41.660 75% for Glenn Youngkin. Is that because they're racist or is that because they're the ones who

00:19:47.960 couldn't get private tutors when the Virginia schools were closed for an entire year? Are they're

00:19:53.560 the ones who had to sit there with their kids in the class masked all day and had no alternatives?

00:19:58.220 They're the ones who can't stock their shelves and who actually shop at the dollar store and see

00:20:03.060 that it's now $1.50. And so they can't run from the downside of these policies. And by the way,

00:20:09.280 they live in a very pro-military state that certainly wouldn't like, have liked to see what

00:20:14.620 happened in Afghanistan and the national embarrassment of America, you know, international

00:20:18.580 on that kind of a stage. And instead, so they go in the ballot box and they have their say,

00:20:23.600 Victor, and what they see the next day on the news is you're all racists. It's the Don Lemons

00:20:29.260 again of the world, the millionaires looking at them from their high poaches or perches saying,

00:20:34.460 you're racists. And to me, I sit back and I say, great, keep, keep saying it. That's perfect.

00:20:40.880 I think, I think that's the attitude everybody has to mock it. It's incoherent too. I was talking

00:20:45.300 to some soldiers from the Central Valley and they don't know what to make of it because they've had

00:20:53.700 COVID and they have high antibody levels and they're going to have to get a discharge if they

00:21:00.220 don't get the two Moderna, the Pfizer vaccinations, even though they're told that with high antibodies

00:21:06.260 from a recent case of COVID, it's not such a good idea to get vaccinated. And yet when they look at

00:21:11.880 people coming in from Afghanistan, 2 million people across the border, the same government

00:21:16.540 says, all you non-citizens are going to be exempt from mandates, but all you soldiers who have COVID

00:21:24.200 and you have probably higher antibody levels and people, you're going to be vaccinated.

00:21:29.100 And even, and they, and we don't care because that's just the way it's going to be.

00:21:33.220 And so they've lost respect for the institutions, very dangerous because while this is happening,

00:21:38.420 there are people like Vladimir Putin who gave one of the most bizarre surreal lectures I've

00:21:44.240 ever heard. And he basically said, we went through Bolshevist. He's very cynical. He's happy about

00:21:49.940 this. And he said, we went through it. It destroys the institutions. We've suffered through it for 50

00:21:55.400 years. And if you want to go ahead and do it, this is great. Go ahead and do it. And then we've had

00:22:00.100 the Chinese who were bizarre as well in their reactions. And they think, you know, rather than Putin

00:22:06.800 egging them on, we'll just kind of, in saying it's ridiculous, we'll say it's great. So every

00:22:12.620 time you mentioned to the Chinese, what happened about the gain of function virus that leaked from

00:22:18.260 your lab? Or why didn't you tell people that were traveling all over the world from Wuhan that they

00:22:23.440 may infect people before the travel ban? They say one word, you're racist. You're racist. You hate

00:22:29.080 Chinese because you're racist. And so what I'm getting at is it's not just, it's not sustainable in the

00:22:34.900 United States, but it's been a gift, a gift for our existential enemies abroad, both Russia and

00:22:41.700 China. Now Iran is pumping oil like crazy and in violation of the embargo. And we're not doing

00:22:46.780 anything about it because we think, well, it's going to be more oil in the market. Maybe that'll,

00:22:51.160 that'll get the price of the gas down before the midterms next year. So it's, I think everybody just

00:22:56.600 says we have lost our collective minds. You know, I get a lot of friends overseas. So do you. And when

00:23:01.640 they email or call and they're not, they're not just conservative, they're liberals or moderates and

00:23:08.280 said, what has happened? You guys are gone crazy. And I say, well, you know, it's kind of like the reign of

00:23:14.060 terror in 1793 or the save them, which file this massive pet rocks, hula hoop craze. It's a massive

00:23:20.680 stereo. And maybe it'll, it'll subside if we stop it, but they, they can't, they're very worried about it.

00:23:26.900 There was a burst of reality on, on Tuesday night. I want to ask you about the COVID thing.

00:23:31.860 We'll squeeze in a quick break here, but that's where we'll pick it up because to what extent were

00:23:36.820 people voting against these restrictive COVID policies or are trying to object to how the

00:23:41.900 Biden administration has handled this crisis? It's one of the interesting questions and it's

00:23:46.280 actually, it's timely because Rand Paul is cross-examining Anthony Fauci right now about his

00:23:52.780 denials on the United States funding gain of function research, research where you make a virus

00:23:57.740 more transmissible or more dangerous. And it's fiery as always. We'll show you what just happened

00:24:03.880 right after this quick, quick break. More with Victor Davis Hanson in one second.

00:24:13.420 So let's talk COVID for a minute, because it seems to me that underlying a lot of these results on

00:24:19.280 Tuesday was a frustration with this administration and how it's handling the pandemic. It's, it's,

00:24:25.560 it's vaccine mandates, it's refusal to acknowledge natural immunity. It's punishment of the working

00:24:32.200 class guys, you know, the firefighters, the cops, even the teachers who helped get us through the

00:24:36.580 pandemic, um, with firing them or, you know, benching them without pay. If they won't get the

00:24:42.320 vaccine, even if they've got a valid medical exemption or religious exemption or natural immunity,

00:24:46.980 something they account for in Europe, but we've decided doesn't exist inexplicably here in the

00:24:51.320 United States. We just choose to totally ignore it. And all of this plays out against the backdrop of

00:24:56.100 how does it, how did this thing get started? The total unwillingness of our Intel agencies,

00:25:01.860 they had issued a three page summary months ago on their second look at how COVID got started.

00:25:06.640 Was it in a lab? Was it natural through an animal? Um, well, they just released the full 18 page

00:25:12.660 report about a week ago, and it was utterly benign and unhelpful. And to me, just, just betrayed their

00:25:18.580 unwillingness to really look, we won't press China. We won't punish China for hiding the data.

00:25:23.860 We're too beholden to China. And there's a real chance here that this was from the Wuhan lab. That

00:25:30.400 certainly should be the predominant theory, uh, and possibly with some nefarious actor behind it. We

00:25:36.660 don't know at a minimum, it appears we funded very dangerous research in that lab. And, uh, that is

00:25:42.480 one of the things that was on the topic today on the, on the docket today when Rand Paul was pushing

00:25:47.560 Anthony Fauci yet again, on whether we funded quote gain of function research. And just by way of

00:25:54.560 background, as you watch this clip for the audience, what happened was the, the NIH after

00:26:00.540 Fauci's last dustup with Rand Paul, where Rand kept saying you funded gain of function research and

00:26:05.360 Fauci kept saying, no, you don't know what you're talking about. That day, the NIH went back on the,

00:26:10.200 on the website and changed the definition of gain of function. Uh, so now Rand Paul gets another bite

00:26:16.780 at the apple and here's just a little bit of his exchange with Dr. Fauci. Watch.

00:26:21.660 So what you're doing is defining away gain of function. You're simply saying it doesn't exist

00:26:25.760 because you changed the definition on the NIH website. This is terrible. And you're, you're completely

00:26:31.380 trying to escape the idea that we should do something about trying to prevent a pandemic

00:26:36.080 from leaking from a lab. There's the preponderance of evidence now points towards this coming from

00:26:41.080 the lab. And what you've done is change the definition on your website to try to cover your

00:26:45.780 ass basically. And then on January of 2017, the office of science and technology policy of the white

00:26:53.780 house issued the current policy and coincidentally, I have definitely the definition on the same day.

00:27:01.320 The NIH said that, yes, there was a gain of function in Wuhan the same day. The definition

00:27:06.540 appeared the new definition to try to define a way what's going on a Wuhan until you accept it until

00:27:12.380 you expect, accept responsibility. We're not going to get anywhere close to trying to prevent another

00:27:17.440 lab leak of this dangerous sort of experiment. You won't admit that it's dangerous. And for that lack

00:27:22.080 of judgment, I think it's time that you resign. I have a great deal of respect for this body of

00:27:27.820 the Senate. And it makes me very uncomfortable to have to say something, but he is egregiously

00:27:33.140 incorrect in what he says. Thank you. History will figure that out on its own.

00:27:41.040 On and on it goes, Victor. And we're not, maybe we'll never have a final verdict, but I think the

00:27:46.700 American people are figuring it out for themselves. Yeah, I think he, I mean, he, what's he, what is

00:27:52.900 he doing, Megan? He's making the argument from authority. I'm Anthony Fauci. I'm a famous public

00:27:58.460 health servant. I'm the head of the National Institute of Allergies and Infectious Diseases,

00:28:03.440 and what I say counts because of the letters after my name. But he's also talking to an MD who's a US

00:28:09.140 senator who's pretty well informed. And I think what he's basically telling us, Anthony Fauci and

00:28:14.600 also Rand Paul, is that if you just step back from the turmoil right now and put it in historical

00:28:21.640 perspective, we've got about 770,000 people that died. And this is the largest disaster that's hit

00:28:31.620 this country. If you look at the economic, cultural, social, all the things we've been talking about

00:28:35.940 earlier, Megan, in some cases were let off. They were IEDs that were exploded by this COVID stuff.

00:28:42.260 They were there, but they were, they were activated by this crisis. And really what we're talking about

00:28:47.920 is Anthony Fauci at the age of 80 is essentially can't deal with the reality that he spent US government

00:28:57.500 money when gain of function was not allowed and routed it through Echo Health. And it ended up,

00:29:04.680 I think he knew it and he intended it. So in the Wuhan's level four lab that had the Chinese military

00:29:11.180 oversight of it, and they created a gain of function virus that seems to be very pernicious

00:29:18.020 in its mutations, except for transmissibility. And in some way, we have culpability for it.

00:29:26.580 And we being America and him in particular. And at 80, I don't think he's able to resign or retire

00:29:33.240 with that legacy. So he's not. But the more that he digs in, the more it requires him not to tell

00:29:38.920 the truth and not to face reality. And it's another, I mean, look at the people, Megan, that we have

00:29:45.940 created in these positions of power. They're public servants. Sometimes they do very good jobs, but

00:29:51.620 Anthony Fauci, Mark Milley, James Comey, John Brennan, Andrew McKay, Robert Mueller, they all get before

00:30:02.580 Congress and they cannot tell the truth or be candid. None of them can. And so it's a reminder,

00:30:08.820 we've given these people enormous powers of executive branch, legislative branch, judicial branch.

00:30:14.680 Anthony Fauci just a few months ago was determining whether rent landlords could collect rent from

00:30:22.120 their tenants based on the degree of COVID pandemic levels. And he would say, no, it's still dangerous.

00:30:28.680 And then the government would say, okay, you can suspend, you renters can suspend payment to your

00:30:33.260 landlords, not all of whom were wealthy. And so we've given these people so much power and they're so

00:30:38.760 unaccountable that they have an arrogance about them when they're caught. And they're, they're kind

00:30:45.000 of, they're, they're very scary people. And when they get caught, they always, I'm General Milley,

00:30:49.900 and I've got this chest of metals here and look at this. And that, you know what, that was a righteous

00:30:55.240 strike of that, that drone strike. And, and this was a logistical success getting out. And if you,

00:31:00.880 and if you question him, then you're on patriotic or I'm Anthony Fauci. And how dare you suggest that I

00:31:06.360 would have anything to do with gain of function? That that's beneath you. This body, that's the

00:31:11.740 reply, or I'm James Comey, or I'm Robert Mueller. I don't know anything about GPS, using GPS. I don't

00:31:17.740 know anything about the steel dossier. Why should I? Well, it's the basis of your whole investigation.

00:31:22.540 And so I think this is all caught up to what we're talking about. The people feel that they've lost

00:31:28.860 control of the government, that their elected officials, but especially their unelected officials

00:31:34.200 simply are not accountable. And they can't audit them. They can't hold them responsible. And

00:31:39.300 they're getting angrier and angrier about it. And yeah, literally said, I am science. Well,

00:31:45.640 he does. Okay. You know, we'll, we'll be the judge of that. But I think the COVID policies

00:31:51.380 forced on regular Americans by this administration definitely played out to some extent on Tuesday,

00:31:58.840 because I do think, you know, what part of what we saw at those angry school board meetings was

00:32:04.020 parents mad about the never ending masking. And this is before we've gotten to the mandatory

00:32:10.600 vaccinations for children. It's coming for five to 11 year olds. In many schools, it's already there

00:32:16.340 for 12 and up. In our school, it's there for 16 and up. And, and they're, they're going to expel any

00:32:22.820 child who doesn't get it, who's 16 years old. It doesn't matter if your child's been there since

00:32:26.880 he was a kindergartner, he's getting expelled. If you won't give him the vaccine, even if you have

00:32:32.020 a medical exemption, that's, that's our school. But my point is, parents are angry about that.

00:32:37.200 We saw that it wasn't all CRT issued, uh, driven anger. It was also the never ending COVID madness

00:32:43.740 and the refusal to, to be reasonable, not to mention Biden's promise that he would shut it down.

00:32:49.360 And he hasn't. So the virus isn't shut down though. It gets better. They won't loosen any

00:32:55.280 of these restrictive policies. Our children suffer. Our businesses suffer the working class

00:32:59.480 suffers. And I do think that was playing out there. I mean, in Northern Virginia, the schools

00:33:03.460 were closed for a year, Victor, they were closed for a year. They have zero credibility because

00:33:08.460 we've got to remember that Joe Biden came into office thinking that the vaccination program that

00:33:13.220 he inherited and the waning virus was going to be over with. So he told us that the president

00:33:18.840 Trump was responsible for all of those 390,000 deaths. That was the narrative. And they're

00:33:25.020 not going to happen on, I'm going to kill the virus. He didn't understand it was a gain

00:33:28.960 of function, highly mutating. So we got the Delta and here we are, uh, not even 10 months

00:33:35.180 into his administration, we have 370,000 deaths. We have more deaths per day since Biden took office

00:33:42.780 than when Trump was in office after the first case was reported. In other words, there was

00:33:48.200 about a thousand deaths per day under Trump to get to the 390. And we have about, uh, 1300

00:33:55.280 under Biden. That wouldn't matter, Megan. It shouldn't be matter. It's not fair to blame

00:34:00.240 the president, except that was what Biden said. He, the president is to be blamed. And then he

00:34:05.140 never thought that he would be boomeranged on that. And then we heard all of this one mass,

00:34:10.680 two mass, 60, 70, 80% immunity. The don't worry about anybody else. You go get the vaccination.

00:34:17.860 You don't really worry whether they're vaccinated. It's, it's the gold standard, 96% immunity. You

00:34:24.340 can be in a room with people and not back. And then we heard Biden say, you know what? I don't

00:34:28.600 want mandates. I'm not going to do that. And then everything is reversed. Everything is not true.

00:34:34.300 And now we're in a worker shortage and we're paying people not to work. And the least thing

00:34:41.080 imaginable that any leader would do would compound that worker shortage by firing thousands of people

00:34:48.740 in key industries and the military and the federal government, if they're not vaxxed, even though we

00:34:54.940 know that, uh, prior immunity naturally acquired is, uh, is good. You know, I had a very strange thing.

00:35:02.040 I went to a doctor's appointment. I got the Moderna in February. So it was, it's been nine,

00:35:07.980 nine months. And they gave me, I don't know why they gave me, but they gave me not only COVID,

00:35:12.400 but an antibody. And they called up and said, Victor, you have 2,200 antibody levels. What's

00:35:19.680 happened to you? Your, your antibody levels should have gone way down. Are you, we were going to give

00:35:24.700 you a booster. I said, I don't want a booster. And they said, well, you don't need one. You must have

00:35:28.960 had COVID. And then I remember I was teaching, you know, some kids got sick in my class. I had

00:35:34.580 101 temperature for a day. I didn't even, it was on a Friday. I didn't go in to get tested on Monday

00:35:40.200 because I woke up 14 hours later, perfectly fine. But I guess I did get some kind of COVID. But my

00:35:46.660 point is that natural immunity spiked so high that they thought that I had a booster. And they said,

00:35:54.120 wow, it's like you've had, just got your Moderna shot or a booster yesterday. What I'm getting at

00:35:58.760 is that we don't even talk about that. We don't talk about all of these people who suffered from

00:36:02.720 COVID. They have natural immunity. We don't quite know its relationship with vaccination immunity,

00:36:08.680 but it looks almost in many cases, there's parity. And yet we're telling them on anti-science,

00:36:15.480 really anti-science that they have to be vaccinated again. And so we started out with all these

00:36:21.620 conspiracists that said, you know what, this is a way for the federal government to gain greater

00:36:26.780 control of our lives, to empower people who are not elected to make economic and social decisions

00:36:33.560 based on suspect signs. And we didn't believe them. And now we do, because that's exactly what's

00:36:39.460 happening. They're controlling more and more aspects of our life. And when we get the vaccinations,

00:36:46.180 we get the boosters, they feel panic. And you know where we're going to end up, Megan,

00:36:52.800 we're going to end up with a engineered virus that's going to be like a bad flu, I suppose.

00:36:59.200 And all of us are either going to get vaccinated, we're going to have residual T cell or B cell

00:37:04.140 immunity or some antibody. And then we're going to make a choice every year whether to get a booster

00:37:08.860 or to get a day or two of COVID, because we probably will have immunity either from fire exposure

00:37:15.140 or the original shots. And it won't kill us. And that's not even considering the therapeutics

00:37:21.220 that are down the pipeline. We don't even talk about that. No, we don't even talk about the

00:37:25.220 therapeutics. We got the vaccine and then we gave up on the cure. Yeah, and they're going to be here

00:37:28.960 pretty soon. What do you think the odds are of Democrats, if not today or tomorrow, by the time we

00:37:35.220 approach midterms, at least, let's hope it's not that long, finally saying, oh my goodness, we are going

00:37:40.840 to have to relax these crazy policies because we're going to pay for it if we don't. All this firing of

00:37:49.180 cops and medical personnel and prison guards and teachers and health care workers and mandatory

00:37:55.260 masking of children who are not effective vectors of the disease all day long in school, we've

00:37:59.720 completely forgotten about them. We've muzzled them, stuck them in schools and forgotten about them,

00:38:03.720 except when we pull them out for two minutes to stick a needle in our five-year-old's arms

00:38:07.700 or they get expelled. That's really where this is. I do think that people will punish the Democrats

00:38:13.660 if they don't reverse some of this. I don't think that, I think they will punish them, but they won't

00:38:17.020 change. And their way of thinking, two things got them elected and they did not think that they would

00:38:23.020 defeat Donald Trump, much less control both houses of Congress. They said it. And what they feel worked

00:38:29.820 for them was the demonstrations, riots, and chaos after George Floyd that empowered critical race

00:38:37.040 theory that was an abstract academic, I mean, academic exercise into the mainstream. And so

00:38:42.900 they're never going to give up on that, that winning, what they feel was a winning ticket in 2020.

00:38:47.620 And the COVID crisis, because the COVID crisis, and I'm not getting into conspiracy about voting and

00:38:53.120 valeting, but there was 102 million absentee or early votes that were not cast on election day. And

00:39:00.360 they feel that that worked out for them. And I'm not just saying they feel, I mean, Jane finally,

00:39:06.120 members said, thank God for COVID, we wouldn't have gotten into Trump. Or Gavin Newsom said,

00:39:10.860 this gave us a chance to get a new progressive capitalism. Or Hillary Clinton said, this is a

00:39:15.880 chance to push through single payer healthcare. The Davos Great Reset people said, this is the chance

00:39:21.940 we've been waiting for. So in their mind, the longer you have the COVID threat, and the longer you have

00:39:28.080 racial tensions, and critical race theory, the more polarized, chaotic anarchy, the more anarchy,

00:39:35.460 the more there's a need to people will react in a way that they usually don't politically, and that

00:39:41.960 favors them. So I don't think they're going to give up. I think it's, they're going to say, you know

00:39:46.920 what, these boosters are necessary every year, the mask work, we've got to keep everybody locked down.

00:39:57.080 Or at least they'll say, you need to show this to a restaurant. I was in New York, you know, your city.

00:40:01.200 And I could not believe it. I went to about six restaurants, and I would call multi-racial,

00:40:07.920 multi-ethnic neighborhoods. And it was like being in the 1950s South. They were all white people.

00:40:14.320 And so I kind of asked one woman there, and I said, do you all, I showed my, I said, everybody,

00:40:21.060 I had this, I was asked to show my vaccination certificate. She said, everybody does. And she said,

00:40:26.200 of course, so-called affluent white people are more likely, and Asians could be vaccinated. So

00:40:32.240 there's no, minorities are not being treated very well. And I thought to myself, how many African

00:40:38.280 American people are Mexican American people, none of which are in this restaurant? And I wasn't the

00:40:44.920 high end restaurant. Some of them weren't. And I thought, how many of them really had COVID? And they

00:40:51.000 almost died, or they got seriously sick for a week, and they have sky high antibodies, and they cannot

00:40:56.320 come into this restaurant. Right, right. No, it's absurd. And by the way, while they sit at home,

00:41:02.240 God forbid, they have an emergency, no firefighters going to show up because they're not at work because

00:41:07.900 of this vaccine mandate. They've been benched one third of the fire department, and it's coming next

00:41:14.520 month in December for the prison guards and so on. And you can feel the anger. By the way, I mean,

00:41:18.880 there's a reason that the New York constituency just elected a former cop who's pro-gun and who

00:41:24.420 says he's revisiting these mandates that the lunatic de Blasio put on all the public employees

00:41:31.040 come January 1st. So hopefully Eric Adams is going to undo Mayor de Blasio's ridiculous and

00:41:37.540 non-science-based mandates on our working professionals. But stand by, because there's

00:41:42.620 so much more to go over with Victor Davis Hanson in a moment, including what about Trump? How are the

00:41:47.280 Republicans supposed to run now? Victor's a Trump fan. What does he think? I'll ask him next. And

00:41:52.220 remember, you can find The Megyn Kelly Show live on Sirius XM Triumph Channel 111 every weekday at

00:41:58.060 noon east and the full video show and clips when you subscribe to my YouTube channel, youtube.com

00:42:03.880 slash Megyn Kelly. Or if you prefer an audio podcast, you can subscribe and download on Apple,

00:42:09.680 Spotify, Pandora, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's a good way of sharing the show

00:42:14.760 with people who may have missed it when it was live. And there you'll find our full archives with

00:42:19.060 more than 195 shows. And here's a hint. Go back and listen to any single one with Victor. It's worth

00:42:24.480 your time. So, Victor, the president was asked by the White House correspondent for, who is it? Not

00:42:38.580 not NPR. PBS. Thank you. Yamiche Amador about the election on Tuesday. And he got a couple of

00:42:46.700 questions. First, he said, what we really need to do is get things done. We've got to pass my

00:42:50.000 infrastructure bill and we've got to pass my build back better bill, which is his $3.5 trillion

00:42:55.640 social spending bill, which, you know, thanks to Joe Manchin is now cut down to about $1.75 trillion

00:43:02.440 on top of the $1.2 trillion. I mean, the numbers are just they boggle the mind. But what he wants is more

00:43:08.060 spending. He says that's going to really change everybody's attitude. Then she zeroes in on him

00:43:12.380 on on strategy and race. And here's how that went. Listen.

00:43:17.880 Your message, though, for Democratic voters, especially black voters who see Republicans

00:43:22.380 running on race education, lying about critical race theory, and they're worried that Democrats

00:43:27.220 don't have an effective way to push back on that. Well, I think that the whole answer is just to speak

00:43:34.080 the truth. Lay out where we are. Look, I'm convinced that if you look at everything from my view on

00:43:48.060 criminal justice system to my view on equal opportunity to my view on economic issues

00:43:55.900 and all the things that I have and what I've been pushing in legislation, each of the elements

00:44:00.960 are overwhelmingly popular. We have to speak to them. We have to speak to them and explain them.

00:44:06.260 Look, I just think people are at a point and it's understandable where there's a whole lot of

00:44:16.360 confusion. To me, this is so classic. We hear this from Democrats every time they lose an election.

00:44:24.400 My views are extremely popular. I we just need to explain them. So the dumb dumbs at home

00:44:31.060 understand better why I'm so amazing. That's my takeaway.

00:44:35.560 Yeah, the more people understand them, the more they dislike them. That's his problem.

00:44:39.620 And he's not able to even if he were able to explain them and he's not.

00:44:43.220 If he did, then they would be even more appalled than they are. And the funny thing is that the

00:44:49.960 media and the hard left and the woke people want Biden to go over the cliff at a higher speed than

00:44:56.280 he's going. And he knows that and he doesn't know what to do about it because that's the people who

00:45:01.840 were going to sit out on the election. Remember the Faustian bargain that got him there. Bernie Sanders

00:45:07.380 and BLM and all those people that appeased Antifa said, OK, we'll we'll if Bernie doesn't get the

00:45:13.780 nomination, we'll support Biden. But once he's in office, he owes us and he's going to carry

00:45:18.180 this agenda across the finish line. And that's where he's trapped. And so he just says, like,

00:45:24.120 as you say that, as they always say that we need more information. But it really opens up a question

00:45:29.880 about the Republicans is that Young can found out a way to bring back the suburban voter,

00:45:35.740 the moderate voter by not disowning the Trump agenda. But actually, he got a higher turnout in

00:45:42.680 some counties and Trump did in Virginia concern the really hard red counties of Virginia. So he

00:45:48.160 didn't distance himself. And Trump being barred from social media didn't really hurt him because

00:45:54.960 Trump was not weighing in. So Young can was not being asked every day. What do you think of this

00:45:59.780 tweet five minutes ago? Wouldn't it be amazing if if now Twitter allows Trump back?

00:46:06.940 That's probably where it's going to go. This is probably what's going to bring him back after all

00:46:10.980 this time. All right. I got to run because we're up against a break. But Victor Davis Hanson,

00:46:14.320 you know, I love talking to you. I love your wisdom, your expertise. Thanks for being here and

00:46:17.620 sharing them with us today. Coming up, we're going to do Kelly's Court, Kyle Rittenhouse,

00:46:23.040 Alec Baldwin and more. Stay tuned. On Monday, the Kyle Rittenhouse trial got underway in Wisconsin.

00:46:34.600 All eyes in the nation are on this case. Rittenhouse is charged with reckless and intentional homicides

00:46:39.840 in the killing of two men and the wounding of a third during the Kenosha, Wisconsin protests

00:46:45.420 that followed the shooting of Jacob Blake by police. You remember Jacob Blake was encountering cops while

00:46:54.680 he was trying his his ex-wife or ex-girlfriend or sort of active girlfriend but distanced had called

00:47:00.860 police on Jacob Blake. They got there. He resisted arrest. He fought through a taser and then he pulled

00:47:06.560 a knife on cops and he got shot five times and he lived. But he's paralyzed. In any event, the police have

00:47:12.980 now been exonerated in that shooting. And but that didn't that didn't help the residents of Kenosha

00:47:18.960 in the days after the shooting because BLM was out on the streets saying, you know, this is yet another

00:47:25.060 unfair police shooting. Not true. And chaos unfolded in the streets there. Well, two days after the Jacob

00:47:32.680 Blake shooting, there was this chaos, this madness on the streets of Kenosha. And one of the people

00:47:39.400 involved was Kyle Rittenhouse, who had meandered over from Illinois. He didn't belong there, but he

00:47:44.400 had answered a call on Facebook saying, let's get there and let's protect these businesses and not

00:47:48.440 let, you know, buildings be burned and so on. Seventeen years old. Somebody who was over 18 got

00:47:53.560 him the rifle, which he was not allowed to have lawfully in Wisconsin, but he did. And, you know,

00:47:59.320 he was accused of acting as a vigilante, which is not entirely wrong. So his defenders say they needed

00:48:05.600 it because the cops are outnumbered. And those who are against Kyle Rittenhouse say he was completely

00:48:12.200 out of line and he wound up killing two people. Now, the jurors are going to need to decide they've

00:48:17.840 just been chosen. They have 20 jurors, 12 of whom will actually decide the case. They've got a bunch

00:48:21.700 of alternates just today. They had to bounce one of the jurors. We'll get into that. But they'll have

00:48:26.260 to decide whether Rittenhouse was an instigator or a victim who just used self-defense to protect

00:48:31.520 himself against an unruly mob. Joining me now to discuss it all, that and a couple other cases

00:48:35.900 too, two of my very favorite lawyers to ever appear on Kelly's Court, a segment we've had

00:48:40.120 alive since I was a young cub in the D.C. Bureau at Fox News 2004. That's how long we've been doing

00:48:46.680 this. Janice Bilboer, who's a criminal defense attorney and founding attorney of Janice Bilboer

00:48:51.960 Law and Arthur Idala, a trial attorney and managing partner of Idala, Bertuna and Kamens. He's a former

00:48:57.640 prosecutor, now defense attorney. Hey, guys, how's it going?

00:48:59.960 Hello. Good morning. Good afternoon.

00:49:03.100 Johnny, you still look so good. 2004, lady.

00:49:06.600 Oh, my goodness. Well, you're going backwards because you look absolutely beautiful. So

00:49:12.740 age of 2004, the years are very kind to you, Megan.

00:49:16.400 Same, same. You look awesome. Not to mention Arthur.

00:49:19.240 I'm the only one who's in bad shape, but that's okay.

00:49:22.160 Okay, let's get down to business. Could be worse. You could be on trial for involuntary

00:49:26.520 manslaughter, intentional, intentional murder. Okay, so just to set it up for the audience.

00:49:33.080 So Kyle Rittenhouse, I think, has got a very good self-defense case. It's not to sanction him being

00:49:41.120 there in the first place. He shouldn't have been, in my view, a 17-year-old should not take an AR-15

00:49:45.540 and go on the streets to try to play cop for a night. Doesn't end well. Didn't hear.

00:49:50.620 The two people he shot and killed were one guy Rosenbaum and one guy Huber. Then he shot another

00:49:59.380 guy named Gage Grosskreutz, sorry for the name pronunciation, who got injured but lived. He got

00:50:05.060 shot but lived. And the way it went down, as I understand, we're going to play a little video,

00:50:09.700 but basically what happened is, this is my notes from watching the whole video, the New York Times

00:50:13.860 put it all together from everybody's video that was taken. This guy Rosenbaum. Rosenbaum is dead.

00:50:19.700 Rosenbaum was not a well person. Rosenbaum was a convicted child molester. Rosenbaum had just got

00:50:25.200 out of some mental institution. Rosenbaum shouldn't have been there either. Rosenbaum sadly chased

00:50:30.980 Kyle Rittenhouse, which was a mistake. Then another guy shot his gun into the air. Another guy not

00:50:38.460 named Rosenbaum or Rittenhouse. Rittenhouse apparently got confused that he was getting shot at. That's

00:50:43.280 what his lawyers are going to argue. And then Rosenbaum lunged towards Rittenhouse, who fired at him four

00:50:49.980 times and killed him. All right, so that's death number one. Rittenhouse then fled away with his gun.

00:50:56.020 He was scared. He had just shot a man. And a guy named Huber, Anthony Huber, then chased Kyle

00:51:03.000 Rittenhouse. Huber's girlfriend says he was being a good Samaritan. He thought Rittenhouse was a bad

00:51:07.440 guy. He thought he was killing people. He was trying to disarm him, sort of do the public service.

00:51:13.420 I don't think that's the way Kyle Rittenhouse saw it. There was nothing on Huber that said police officer

00:51:17.980 or I am a good Samaritan. What Rittenhouse saw was Huber coming at him with his skateboard

00:51:24.200 attacking Kyle Rittenhouse, who had fallen on the ground. He attempted to take Kyle's gun.

00:51:29.640 Instead, he was on the receiving end of that gun's bullets and died. Then a third guy, this guy Gage,

00:51:36.960 Gage Grosskreutz comes by Kyle Rittenhouse with Gage's gun drawn. And Kyle shot him too.

00:51:46.060 So you can see how I'm sort of laying out the facts, but this is what this is why they're going to say

00:51:50.740 self-defense, you know, stupid ass moves, but self-defense. And just before I get you guys to

00:51:56.040 weigh in, I'm going to show the audience a little bit of video and those listening can listen to it

00:52:00.300 as well. This is going to be soundbite number nine, which is a 55 seconds. It's from the New York

00:52:06.020 Times mashup of the first and second shooting. Rittenhouse walks towards a parking lot where

00:52:11.720 cars are being vandalized. He passes Joseph Rosenbaum, who was fighting with the armed men at the gas

00:52:17.820 station earlier. Rosenbaum now starts chasing Rittenhouse and throws a plastic bag that holds

00:52:26.100 his belongings from the hospital. Close behind them, a man holds up a handgun and fires it.

00:52:33.120 We don't know why. Then Rosenbaum lunges towards Rittenhouse. Rittenhouse fires four times.

00:52:41.240 Rittenhouse trips and falls. Anthony Huber hits Rittenhouse with a skateboard and attempts to

00:52:49.820 disarm him. Rittenhouse shoots him in the chest. Here is Gage Grosskreutz with his gun drawn.

00:52:56.720 He also gets shot and calls out for help.

00:53:00.520 I need a fucking medic.

00:53:01.660 I need a medic. That's that's going to be one of the witnesses. All right. So,

00:53:07.300 Jonna, for the purposes of today, you are a defense attorney.

00:53:10.460 So you tell me why this is what I mean, should he have been charged at all?

00:53:15.800 Kyle Rittenhouse?

00:53:18.040 Well, the optics are not very favorable. If you knew the story without listening to the context in

00:53:25.440 which it was in your. Yeah. I mean, he was not going to escape getting charged, especially when

00:53:31.360 you look at what was going on in the country during that time. And, you know, in the era of

00:53:37.300 George Floyd and the things that happened just prior and just after there was no way that optically

00:53:43.040 a prosecutor was not going to charge him. So here we are in trial. And the real question is,

00:53:50.260 what is this now 18 year old, then 17, 17 year old boy going to get convicted of, if anything.

00:53:58.680 And when you tell the whole story, when you get into this kid's mind, because that's going to be

00:54:03.820 crucial in determining whether his actions were reasonable. And that is the legal jargon that is

00:54:10.140 going to be applied. That's what the jury is going to have to sit with. And it's interesting for a

00:54:14.860 number of reasons, because I don't know if any of those jurors are 18 years old. I believe they're

00:54:21.140 older. And I, they're really going to have to put themselves in a place where we, the three of us

00:54:26.980 can sit here and say, man, that was dumb for him to go to Wisconsin and engage in this and try to

00:54:33.560 save somebody's business and protect somebody like stay home. We would say that now, are the jurors going

00:54:38.920 to be able to get past that as well and say, okay, well, he didn't, but he didn't, uh, he doesn't

00:54:43.980 deserve to be charged with, uh, these homicides because he truly was protecting himself.

00:54:49.280 Intentional homicide. First degree, Arthur, that's thanks to Keith Ellison, um, this far left

00:54:57.180 political operative who was in the, in the house of representatives. And now he is, uh, the AG out there

00:55:03.380 who decided to up the charge. They wanted to up the charge against Kyle Rittenhouse and,

00:55:07.700 and also is trying, um, wait a minute, I might be convincing or confusing my, my two prosecutors

00:55:13.760 because, so that's Kim Potter. That's the case we're doing next. He stepped in in that case to

00:55:17.560 try to up the cart to charge against a cop. Anyway, this one's first degree intentional homicide,

00:55:21.620 which was the result of pressure by the families in this case as well to, they wanted him charged

00:55:28.500 with, uh, with exactly this. They, they think this is murder. And, um, he's also been charged with

00:55:34.360 reckless homicide as well, which is a lesser charge, but you tell me whether showing up

00:55:39.360 stupidly can lead to an intentional homicide. Even if the cameras show us in the moment,

00:55:46.540 it was self-defense.

00:55:47.360 So to answer the question you asked, yes, even showing up, even stupidly, it can lead to that

00:55:54.800 charge. When a call goes out of a Facebook that we need some help from law enforcement,

00:56:00.840 if that was accurate, I don't think they're looking for a 17 year old kid who has no military

00:56:06.520 training, no law enforcement training with a weapon of mass destruction running out into a,

00:56:12.200 a crowd of people. They may have been looking for retired police officers, uh, off-duty correction

00:56:18.560 officers, off-duty court officers who have training, uh, military people. So it's beyond stupid. Um,

00:56:25.480 it is a degree of recklessness, criminal negligence that rises to a crime. Just the fact that he's

00:56:32.780 out, first of all, he's guilty. He's charged with being in possession of the weapon and being

00:56:36.600 underage. He's a hundred percent guilty of that. So we know we're going to hear at least one guilty.

00:56:40.500 There's no way to get out of that. But the self-defense statue in Wisconsin,

00:56:45.520 it's the same as the one I live with here in New York is it has to be equal force.

00:56:50.640 You can only use deadly force to meet deadly force. And look, if someone's coming at you with

00:56:56.040 a skateboard, it, there's a, what John has said is accurate. It's reasonable. If it happens to be a

00:57:02.580 football player who's 280 pounds and six, four, and one whack of the skateboard is going to kill you.

00:57:08.240 Then you may be able to be justified to shoot them. But if you're on the floor and a guy hits you once

00:57:13.020 with a skateboard, trying to take away your semi-automatic rifle, then a jury is going to

00:57:18.640 have to make a decision. Was it reasonable to kill that person and to kill the person before that and

00:57:25.280 to try to kill the person after that? You got almost three deaths here that I don't think this jury is

00:57:31.520 going to say, oh, no, that was fine. Hmm. That's that's the problem, John, is that it's like one

00:57:38.820 incident. You might look at it and say, oh, God, he was in a tough situation to been there. But like

00:57:43.940 but three, he shot three people, two of whom are dead. It makes it look like he really was a kid who

00:57:50.840 didn't understand this is a real gun. This isn't some video game. And, you know, making a split second

00:57:56.820 life or death determination. There's a reason we don't want 17 year olds having guns like that

00:58:01.640 and behaving that way. Well, that's true. And it's funny that you mentioned video game,

00:58:06.780 because when I view what happened, I look at the victims and sidebar. This judge is not allowing

00:58:12.900 the victims to be called victims, by the way, which I applaud. I agree. They can be called

00:58:17.740 fighters. They could be called looters. So so when you look at the victims, I thought they believe

00:58:22.460 they were inside some sort of video game and that they were all bulletproof. And we have to keep in

00:58:26.900 mind that we weren't there. But this was obviously a completely chaotic scene, right? Skateboards and

00:58:34.260 other people with guns drawn and the police and, you know, the fire and the brimstone. So when you take

00:58:40.380 all that collectively, that has to that has to be taken into consideration when you're determining

00:58:46.880 what was going through this kid's head at the time he was pulling triggers. And I think, you know,

00:58:54.760 and Arthur and I agree that if somebody is trying to whack your head off with a skateboard, to me,

00:59:00.560 that's deadly force. You see somebody else with a gun drawn to me, that's potentially deadly force.

00:59:06.240 If you people are screaming, I think one of these victims slash looters writers said,

00:59:11.760 let's get them or let's kill them. I mean, so these are all the things you have to factor into

00:59:16.320 what was going on inside his head. And the thing about the skateboard, that's one thing,

00:59:23.140 like he's whacking me with a skateboard, which could be bad. But I have a gun. I have an AR-15

00:59:26.720 and I know what he's going to do to me after he knocks me out with that skateboard. He's going to

00:59:30.680 take this gun and my life could be in danger. I have no idea that this is later going to be

00:59:35.640 claimed to be some good Samaritan. No, but the law, we have to look at what was in Kyle Rittenhouse's

00:59:40.880 head. And his lawyer seemed to telegraph he's going to put him on the stand and Kyle's going to

00:59:45.320 testify. And presumably he's going to say, I thought that guy was trying to kill me. I thought

00:59:49.440 the first guy was trying to kill me. He was chasing me. I heard a gun go off. I thought the second guy

00:59:53.840 was trying to kill me because I was down and he was beating me with a skateboard. And even his

00:59:57.420 friends say he was trying to take my gun. I didn't know it was for altruistic reasons. I thought he was

01:00:01.520 going to use it against me. And then the third guy actually had a gun on me.

01:00:05.160 So under that theory, Megan, all of these tragic cases that you and I have covered where people are

01:00:12.160 in the movie house and some guy pulls out a gun and starts killing people, would it be justified

01:00:17.040 if someone tackles him and he's trying to take the gun and then he kills that one person because

01:00:22.340 the original shooter says, well, I thought he was going to take my gun and kill me. But Rosenbaum

01:00:27.200 had no weapon. OK, he heard a gunshot somewhere else. But the clip you just showed showed it was

01:00:33.140 number one, distance wise and time wise, there was a separation. Unlike the guy who actually got

01:00:38.260 shot and lived, he threw a bag of medical stuff. Yes, he threw something at Kyle, but he chased

01:00:45.600 Kyle. He threw something at him and then he lunged toward him. I mean, you can't execute someone for

01:00:50.800 that. Otherwise, every street fight that took place, someone would be justified of pulling out a

01:00:55.280 weapon and shooting him and executing them. But you're forgetting that Kyle Rittenhouse heard a

01:01:00.240 gun go off repeatedly before that in the midst of all this. So he's going to argue, I thought he had

01:01:05.440 a gun. And I realize Rosenbaum is not was not a good man. Child molester, you know, convicted,

01:01:12.300 repeated, not good. But that's not going to come in. The judges excluded that. So the jury is not going

01:01:18.420 to know. I mean, not that it's relevant necessarily to this particular instance, but I'm just saying

01:01:21.880 he wasn't exactly some squeaky queen, squeaky clean Boy Scout on the scene trying to keep

01:01:26.920 order. The guy was, you know, Megan, that's only relevant. It's only relevant if the defendant knew

01:01:31.220 that. So if the defendant knew he wasn't a squeaky clean person, then it's relevant. But if he doesn't

01:01:35.560 have that knowledge, which he didn't, then that's not coming. It doesn't matter if he was the Pope

01:01:39.120 or the devil. So that doesn't count. OK, listen to this. Wait, to your point about the movie theater.

01:01:44.660 OK, listen, Arthur, this is the self-defense statute in Wisconsin. First, it says you can you can use force

01:01:50.420 against another person when you reasonably believe that they intend to do you harm only the force

01:01:54.900 necessary to prevent the harm. Then they say, OK, if you provoke an attack. All right. That's the

01:02:03.160 shooter in the theater. If you provoke an attack, you may not be able to claim legal self-defense

01:02:07.720 against the attack unless it's likely to cause your death or great bodily harm. Even then, you must

01:02:12.600 attempt every other reasonable option to escape, avoid or prevent the attack before resorting to

01:02:16.700 deadly attack, deadly force yourself. And then you may not be able to claim self-defense if you provoked

01:02:24.740 another person attack as an excuse for you to kill them. So that that your movie theater guy goes out

01:02:30.700 based on that last sentence. I don't know that Kyle Rittenhouse loses protection of this.

01:02:34.740 If a police officer acted in the same way as Rittenhouse, would he be charged for the police officer wearing

01:02:39.580 his shield? The same exact set of circumstances. Somebody's chasing him and throws his bag of his

01:02:45.260 medical stuff or his hospital clothes at him and he kills him. Then he runs the other way. He trips

01:02:50.440 and a guy comes after him with a skateboard. He kills him. And then the last one is the most

01:02:55.060 justified. A guy's got the gun in his hand. That's the one that he should be found not guilty of,

01:02:59.740 in my opinion, because that's their hand to hand combat. And that's it's deadly force against deadly

01:03:05.020 force. But I believe if a police officer did the same at the same set of circumstances,

01:03:09.980 that cop would be standing trial right now. Go ahead, John. Do you think so?

01:03:15.160 Well, I think it's a slightly different standard because we do hold police officers to a different

01:03:19.740 standard than we hold the average Joe. And here we've got to hold this 17 year old kid

01:03:23.880 to the reasonableness standard, given the totality of the circumstances, what he was hearing, what he

01:03:30.760 was seeing, what he was feeling. And I think when you factor all of that in, I mean, really,

01:03:35.820 this defense attorney is going to have to convince these jurors to be Kyle Rittenhouse for the duration

01:03:43.100 of this trial in order for him to, like I said, Arthur's right. He is going to get convicted of

01:03:48.080 the gun charges. There's really no way around that. But on the top charges on, on the homicides,

01:03:52.560 they really have to put themselves in his shoes and in between his ears. And that's going to be the

01:03:58.340 challenge for this defense attorney. Well, that's why he's going to testify. He's got to testify,

01:04:02.140 Megan. And almost in every, I shouldn't say every, but in many self-defense cases to put yourself,

01:04:07.980 like John just said, to put the jurors in his head, they have to hear what his head is. They

01:04:12.260 have to hear what, what he saw, what he, what his perception was, distances, lighting, sounds,

01:04:18.480 every little detail they have to put in there and, and make the jury feel the fear that he felt that

01:04:25.040 he was so terrified that he was about to be killed. He had no other choice. Like the statue says,

01:04:29.700 you have to take any reasonable steps to get out of there. I had no choice except to do what I did.

01:04:35.180 Therefore, find me, my homicide took place, but it was justifiable. Therefore, I don't go to jail.

01:04:40.920 All right. So I want to tell you that, uh, one of the jurors was dismissed today. Apparently he told

01:04:45.280 he or she told the deputy, you know, him escorting him to his vehicle. Yeah. On Tuesday, quote,

01:04:51.400 why did the Kenosha police shoot Jacob Blake seven times? Because they ran out of bullets.

01:04:58.260 So he's gone. Um, so they will, that they don't want anybody who's got biased pro police,

01:05:04.900 anti-police, what have you. There's already a dustup about the race of the jurors. Wisconsin

01:05:09.040 is overwhelmingly white as is the jury, uh, in this case. I mean, Kyle Rittenhouse is white and everyone

01:05:14.640 he shot is white, but it sort of stems out of an incident with a black man, Jacob Blake,

01:05:19.060 in which the cops again have, have not been charged and have been exonerated. Anyway,

01:05:22.580 we'll continue to follow it. They're up against it because it's turned political there too,

01:05:26.340 right? It's like become part of a movement. Kyle Rittenhouse is allegedly a white nationalist and

01:05:31.320 they're going to try to, you know, suggest that. I don't know that they get any of that proof in,

01:05:34.800 but they've got sort of pictures of him doing the okay sign, which is now, you know how that goes.

01:05:39.220 We'll continue to watch it. We've got much more with John and Arthur coming up. We're going to talk

01:05:42.300 Alec Baldwin, who's now speaking out and, uh, Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, her lawyers are now making a

01:05:48.000 statement too. She's the armorer and wait until you hear what they're suggesting actually happened

01:05:51.880 on that set. All right, let's talk Kim Potter. This is the one I was confusing a minute ago.

01:06:00.740 Um, this is out of Minnesota, Brooklyn center, Minnesota. Kim Potter is the woman, the cop who

01:06:07.300 shot a man named Dante Wright, a 20 year old black man, um, who had been pulled over for driving

01:06:16.360 without a registration. Uh, I think that he had an expired registration and, uh, the tags showed that

01:06:21.880 they discovered that there was a warrant out for his arrest. Three officers tried to detain him.

01:06:26.040 Uh, he stepped back into his car in the midst of resisting. There was a brief struggle with the

01:06:31.060 officers and officer Kim Potter, who very clearly meant to taser him. Um, it appears accidentally grabbed

01:06:37.820 her firearm instead and shot him and he was killed. Here's the videotape of what happened.

01:06:44.480 You can hear her say, holy shit, I just shot him and I'll tase you. I'll tase you. And then

01:07:07.960 her obvious shock that she wound up firing her firearm at him. Um, she is the one who is now sort

01:07:14.100 of being targeted by Keith Ellison, this former, you know, democratic congressman who's very far

01:07:19.120 left. Who's now the AG there who stepped in to amp up the charges against her and amp up the possible

01:07:24.340 prison time she could be facing. She's looking at first and second degree manslaughter charges.

01:07:29.540 Um, manslaughter in the first degree would require imprisonment for not more than 15 years. Uh, you

01:07:35.480 have to intentionally cause the death of another person in the heat of passion provoked by such words

01:07:39.560 or act of another that would provoke a person of ordinary self-control under life circumstances

01:07:43.800 to commit the act. Anyway. Um, I, to me, this is a clear accident. I don't know how we get first

01:07:52.120 degree manslaughter out of this. Arthur, you explain to me how they make that charge to this jury.

01:07:57.100 I, I think, well, look, you previewed this perfectly regarding Ellison. So you have an attorney general

01:08:05.400 here who's not a real lawyer. He's not a real prosecutor. He's a real politician. And I'll tell

01:08:10.860 that to his face. Um, and he, he overcharged the case. I mean, if I'm playing the role of prosecutor

01:08:16.420 here, this is not how I would charge the case at all. Do I think a jury should determine whether

01:08:22.600 her negligence, whether that mistake was so horrific that it rises to the level of criminality.

01:08:29.940 That's why they have laws that are called criminally negligent homicide, which is that,

01:08:34.700 you know, there's zero intent. You're not trying to hurt anyone. The next step up is recklessness,

01:08:40.960 where if you just take a gun and you're firing it at no one, but you know, there's a lot of people

01:08:45.080 around and you could kill them. Well, that's, that's a charge that you can be sentenced to with

01:08:48.860 more time. But negligence is, it's just a mistake. It's just an accident, which is in my opinion,

01:08:54.420 looking at the evidence and having covered this for many times, that's what it was. It's so,

01:08:59.480 she's so genuine in her protestations up to herself that she shot him and I'll, you know,

01:09:05.880 oh my God, well, she curses as you heard. So the count here that a jury, 12 people weighing all the

01:09:11.900 evidence has to determine, in my opinion, is whether her mistake rises to a level of criminality,

01:09:16.460 which is typically called criminally negligent homicide. And usually those counts carry a much,

01:09:23.100 much lower jail sentence, like a year, two years, three years, not 10 or 15. This woman doesn't

01:09:28.260 deserve that. So she's charged, Donna, with first degree manslaughter and second degree manslaughter.

01:09:35.020 Second degree is culpable negligence, whereby the person creates an unreasonable risk and consciously

01:09:42.240 takes chances of causing death or great bodily harm to another. I don't know if that's this case either.

01:09:48.380 You know, I mean, this is accident. Is there is, is criminally negligent homicide less than second

01:09:57.520 degree manslaughter? Because that, that's not charged. Yeah, it's probably just a little bit

01:10:04.720 less, uh, egregious in the, along the continuum, but I agree. I don't, you know, why is it when a cop

01:10:12.500 makes the mistake that cop is now a criminal when really that's not how it should be? We don't just

01:10:18.640 have a system of justice that has a criminal law to it. We have civil law as well. And if somebody

01:10:24.700 makes a mistake and that mistake results in, in the tragedy of somebody dying, but because of an

01:10:31.140 innocent mistake, an innocent, albeit horrible mistake, the civil law steps in to say, you know

01:10:38.340 what? Well, now this person, you have to compensate the family. You have to compensate the injured

01:10:42.520 person. You have to compensate them with money to try to make up for it, but you don't need to throw

01:10:47.780 somebody in jail or prison because of it. But now if you're a cop, you cannot make a mistake because

01:10:55.040 the political environment is such that you have to be not only charged and tried, but we're going to

01:11:00.720 up the charges to make sure that you're tried as a murderer and not a human being on a stressful job

01:11:06.580 that made a horrible and horrendous mistake. This one is charged completely wrong. Probably should

01:11:12.300 not have been charged at all. Her biggest, the prosecutor's biggest point to the jury is she's

01:11:18.500 not, she's so far from a rookie. And when, again, I'm not talking about anything intentional. I'm still

01:11:24.520 going back to the mistake, maybe rising to the level of a criminality is, you know, she's, she got,

01:11:30.720 like, dozens of years on the force. And she received many times explicit training on the

01:11:37.320 difference between the taser and a gun, a handgun, and also the, the, the holsters themselves and how

01:11:45.600 they lock. And it basically falls into you knew or should have known that what you were pulling out

01:11:50.700 was your handgun and not your taser. And that's, that's the, if she was a rookie, I think she'd have

01:11:56.700 a stronger argument that said, look, this was just a mistake. I've only been on the job for nine

01:12:00.700 months and I, I'm, it's a horrible thing. And John is right. You know, the city will give you this

01:12:05.900 family, six, eight, 10 million dollars and let's call it a day. But yeah, but that, and I don't know

01:12:13.140 what the taser feels like in one's hand versus what the firearm feels like in one hand. And in this

01:12:20.000 particular jurisdiction, it must've been awfully similar. Otherwise one presumed she wouldn't have been so

01:12:24.460 confused. If it was markedly different, that's definitely going to be a point in favor of the,

01:12:28.080 the prosecution. But yeah, to me, it's almost like a surgeon though, who's performing an operation

01:12:34.700 and, you know, wrongfully uses the scalpel instead of another instrument or cuts where he shouldn't

01:12:40.060 cut and causes a death. It's pure accident. It would, it would be malpractice. It would lead to a big

01:12:45.220 civil payout, but the surgeon doesn't go to jail. The only reason she got charged is because of the

01:12:51.100 charged political environment that we're in. And this, this DA, who's a politician, you know,

01:12:56.280 this, this AG Keith Ellison, to me, that's unfair. This woman shouldn't have her, her freedom taken

01:13:01.900 away because we have a politically charged atmosphere right now when it comes to cops.

01:13:06.980 Exactly. I think we all agree on this one.

01:13:10.840 Yeah. All right. Well, here's one that we may or may not agree on. And that is Alec Baldwin.

01:13:15.100 This is another accidental shooting. And I was actually making this comparison the other day

01:13:19.340 because, you know, you can look at the media and certainly Democrats can look at Alec Baldwin's

01:13:25.580 shooting and say it was an accident. Obviously, obviously the guy did not mean to kill his

01:13:31.220 cinematographer, Helena Hutchins, but he did. It was an accident. Do most people think he should

01:13:36.700 face criminal charges? I'd venture no. They don't think that if you want him to go to jail,

01:13:40.800 you probably paid him for his politics, right? Like he doesn't belong in jail over this. He screwed up.

01:13:46.040 A number of people screwed up, but they can't look at Kim Potter and say the same, right? And yes,

01:13:50.340 she had an obligation to understand how to handle a firearm. So did he. So did he. The rules on a

01:13:55.320 movie set are, and the actor knows this, and he had been trained, according to those around him.

01:14:00.360 You don't point a gun at anybody in a movie set, period. You just don't do it. Even though it's so

01:14:05.560 rare that they have an accident like this, everyone knows something could happen. You know,

01:14:10.420 it's happened before with Brandon Lee. A blank went off and there was still a bullet cartridge in the

01:14:15.800 gun and he was killed. Anyway, the point is the politics blind people's ability to see these cases

01:14:23.280 clearly. So in the Alec Baldwin case, it's very interesting. He is both the producer and the actor

01:14:30.220 who fired the trigger and took this woman's life tragically. But he could be on the hook civilly

01:14:35.720 as a producer or potentially, I guess, I don't know if criminally he could be facing some liability as a

01:14:40.460 producer. Everyone in this case seems to be pointing at the young armorer. Her name is Hannah

01:14:47.440 Gutierrez-Reed. She's like 24 years old. She's very young to be in charge of guns on a set, but she's

01:14:54.440 done it before. And she's the daughter of like one of the best or the best known armorers in all of

01:14:59.480 Hollywood. So she had good training, one presumes. To me, I see it so interesting. The assistant

01:15:05.920 director who was supposed to make sure that gun didn't have real bullets in it admits he didn't

01:15:10.380 check the chamber before he handed it to Alec Baldwin. He was the last line of defense. Well,

01:15:15.440 Alec was, but he was second to last. They're all pointing at her. Now, yes, the armorer has

01:15:19.900 responsibility for the gun, but they're all pointing at her and she hasn't spoken yet. But her lawyer

01:15:24.120 finally spoke. They went on on the Today Show and here's where her defense is going. Very interesting.

01:15:31.160 Listen. There was a box of dummy rounds and the box is labeled dummy. Hannah did take from that box,

01:15:40.960 which she, by all accounts, should have been able to rely on. That contains only dummy rounds.

01:15:47.740 She loaded rounds from that box into the handgun. Only later to find out there is a, and she had no

01:15:56.140 idea. She inspected the rounds that there was a live round. Now we don't know, however, whether that

01:16:03.120 live round came from that box. We're assuming it did. We're assuming somebody put the live round in

01:16:09.500 that box, which if you, if you think about that, the person who put the live round in the box of dummy

01:16:16.300 rounds had to have the purpose of sabotaging this set. You have a round that's supposed to contain

01:16:22.300 only dummy bullets, prop ammunition that have a projectile, but are incapable of being fired.

01:16:29.620 And they resemble a real round. Why would someone do that? And the reason for that, Savannah, is that

01:16:33.560 when you look down. Why would someone do that? And who in your mind had the motive and the opportunity

01:16:38.200 to do it? I believe that somebody who would do that would want to sabotage the set, want to prove a

01:16:47.660 point, want to say that they're disgruntled, they're unhappy. And we know that people had already walked

01:16:52.700 off the set the day before, and they had been, and they're unhappy. And the reason they were unhappy

01:16:58.540 is they're working 12 to 14 hour days. They were not given hotel rooms in and around the area. So they

01:17:04.380 had to drive back and forth an hour to Albuquerque, and they're unhappy.

01:17:09.400 Hmm. He used the S word. Your thoughts on that, Arthur?

01:17:13.480 Well, I drive back and forth an hour to work. I mean, that's, that's the big, that's the big

01:17:18.500 complaint here. And, and the reaction, I mean, you know, you talk about overreacting, you put a live

01:17:25.920 bullet. I mean, that's what you do. That's not what you do. Maybe you give someone like a rotten

01:17:29.900 tuna fish in their sandwich, as opposed to a good tuna fish, or I didn't play some sort of practical

01:17:35.800 joke. You don't put a live round in the middle of, of, of film set where they're going to be firing

01:17:42.860 weapons. I mean, that's absolutely inexcusable. I do know that the sheriff is doing a very thorough

01:17:47.620 investigation. If they find out who put that live round in there, I mean, they should be charged.

01:17:53.220 It's not the easiest charge, but they should be charged immediately.

01:17:57.080 Mm hmm. So that's what we learned, because she released a statement to John,

01:18:01.720 Hannah Gutierrez read, which basically says she was dealing with a with a box of rounds that was

01:18:08.880 labeled dummy rounds. Now, yes, it's her job to know the difference, right? There's a way of telling

01:18:14.620 the difference between dummy rounds and live rounds. But to their point, to her point or lawyer's

01:18:20.480 point, if somebody other than the armorer herself, right, if she was negligent, she put something in

01:18:25.980 there. That's one thing. But if somebody actively put a live round in the box labeled dummies, this

01:18:31.340 case looks a lot different. Right. And that would be absolutely murder. But what's not flying with me

01:18:38.600 is there's no way that the armorer inspected the bullets that she put into the firearm and did not

01:18:46.740 notice that one or more of them was not a dummy round, that one or more of them was a live round.

01:18:52.740 So the only way that's done really could be sabotaged if you follow her theory is if she loaded

01:18:58.220 the dummies, inspected them like like her lawyer said she did, loaded the dummies, put the gun down,

01:19:03.580 somebody sneaks up, takes the dummy out, puts a live round in and she's nowhere around it. And

01:19:08.540 nobody rechecks the gun, which is also, as far as I'm concerned, negligent. But you can tell a dummy

01:19:14.640 round just like you can tell a blank. You can tell by looking at the primer is going to be dented in.

01:19:19.000 There's going to be no powder in there. They typically put something that makes noise. So if you

01:19:22.980 inspected like you said you did, you would have known that a live round was among them. So when

01:19:28.440 did the sabotage allegedly occur? That's going to be something that's probably going to be very

01:19:32.840 difficult to prove, if provable at all. So that's what's crazy. Apparently, the only way you tell a

01:19:39.200 difference between a dummy round, which does nothing, there's dummy rounds, which do nothing.

01:19:44.780 They're just there to look good, you know, to make the gun look like a real gun. There's blanks,

01:19:49.280 which actually do fire and create smoke and are potentially dangerous. You have to be super

01:19:54.520 careful. And then there's live rounds, which is a real bullet, you know, projectile. And the way

01:20:00.000 you tell the difference, I guess, between a dummy round and a live round is you shake it. And I think

01:20:04.720 it's it jingles the dummy rounds. If I'm not mistaken, I could have this backwards, but I think

01:20:10.820 it's the dummy round jingles and you hear a little jingle. And so either she heard a jingle

01:20:17.560 on all six of the rounds and loaded them and then somebody later messed with it or she heard a

01:20:25.720 jingle that wasn't really there and she loaded a live round, not realizing it, you know, so it was

01:20:29.840 either she was negligent or somebody else was intentionally sabotaging as the lawyer claimed.

01:20:36.400 And if they can prove sabotage that takes this case, I mean, that kind of gives you an explanation

01:20:41.940 of why the sheriff's taking his time. But Megan, if what you just said is accurate and right before

01:20:46.520 she puts that weapon, that bullet into the gun and hands it to Alec, she does the shake test.

01:20:53.020 Ostensibly, even if someone did put live rounds in that box, if she's shaking it, that's supposed

01:20:57.480 to be the line of last defense. Oh, wait a minute. It's not making a noise. Let me put this one

01:21:03.100 aside. It's not jingling. Let me put this one aside and let me use another one. So

01:21:07.380 OK, but wait, let me challenge you on that. Let me challenge you on that. If I were her lawyer,

01:21:11.740 I would say, OK, you have to understand in no world, because they made a point in their statement

01:21:19.240 saying something like this, but in no world would you ever be expecting live round. This is how their

01:21:26.400 statement ends. No one could have anticipated or thought that someone would introduce live rounds

01:21:30.780 into this set, into a box that was labeled dummy rounds. I realize ultimately she's the armorer.

01:21:36.600 She's responsible. But to her point, like it's never happened. Who the hell would put a live round

01:21:42.840 in a dummy box? Obviously, that's going to be there. It's going to be their argument. And I mean,

01:21:49.920 I've heard a couple of experts on saying it like it doesn't matter. Like when you take that cartridge

01:21:54.860 and you put it into a weapon as as the armorer, you're getting paid, whether you're 24 or 54,

01:22:01.680 you're getting paid to make sure that that round is not a live round. And that didn't happen yet.

01:22:08.080 And then the assistant director is supposed to be another line of defense to make sure he's

01:22:12.000 and he admits he didn't look at all the rounds before handing the gun to Alec. And then Alec wasn't

01:22:16.320 supposed to point it at an actual person, which he clearly did. So it's like there's plenty of

01:22:21.260 responsibility to go around. I will say he has he should stop tweeting and making Instagram posts.

01:22:25.940 He should stop posting stupid Halloween photos of himself. But he made seven Instagram posts this

01:22:31.980 week sharing the comment from a costume designer who also worked in the movie, who said the story

01:22:38.540 being spun of us being overworked and surrounded by unsafe, chaotic conditions is bullshit.

01:22:43.380 She said no one was too tired to do their jobs and the crew were offered hotels, but turn them down

01:22:47.800 because they didn't feel they were fancy enough. And he retweeted it saying, read this.

01:22:52.260 Just be quiet. Right. Just just be quiet. You're not helping. Right. I mean, you guys would be say

01:22:57.760 like pipe down Alec. OK, quickly, I got to ask you about Tiger King. Did you guys watch Tiger King

01:23:02.080 during the pandemic? The only thing that got me through 100 percent. Right. It was amazing.

01:23:08.320 Joe Exotic. So Carol Baskin has filed a lawsuit. She is suing Netflix over the sequel. Yeah,

01:23:16.960 hey, there's going to be a sequel. It comes out November 17th. And Tiger King, too, uses footage

01:23:22.240 of her. And she's mad because she says she's suing Netflix in this royal good production saying

01:23:29.500 you shouldn't be showing footage of me. You got footage of me the first time around under fraud,

01:23:35.100 fraudulent means. You told me you were doing one long documentary on the abuse of tigers by people

01:23:42.400 like Joe Exotic, not something that's going to make me look like I killed off my first husband.

01:23:49.240 So she doesn't want footage of her appearing in the second film. And she says the original release

01:23:54.240 she signed, allowing for footage of her in the first one, doesn't say anything about sequels or a

01:23:59.740 series. No mention of sequel rights whatsoever or derivative works. So, Jonna, does Carol Baskin

01:24:06.800 have a good case against Netflix? No, she might. And it's all going to be in the fine print,

01:24:13.900 because if, in fact, you know, she signed off on one project and they're trying to use her likeness

01:24:19.080 for something that she didn't agree to, you know, show me the money, honey, because that's what the

01:24:23.740 complaint is going to be about. And she actually may have a case, but it's going to come down to

01:24:28.040 what's in the four corners of whatever she signed way back when, before she became as famous as she is

01:24:34.060 now. Well, I wonder, because, yeah, go ahead. Go ahead, Arthur. No, no, that, well, that's

01:24:37.520 Jonna's last word about famous. Like, I don't know, does it become where she, point where she

01:24:42.840 becomes so famous, she's now in the public domain and they don't need, I mean, we don't know what

01:24:47.420 the doc, the second piece of the documentary is going to look like and what kind of footage

01:24:51.220 they're using. But now that she's crossed over that line from being a civilian to a celebrity,

01:24:56.420 where basically under the law, the rules change regarding slander and libel and defamation and all of

01:25:01.920 that. Hmm. She's definitely a celebrity now. I mean, I don't, if you haven't seen Tiger King,

01:25:06.740 you've got to watch it. And apparently I didn't totally understand this, but she, she thought

01:25:10.260 she was cooperating with them. They were going to do this nice piece showing like the abuse of tigers

01:25:14.940 by, you know, unsavory characters that Joe Exotic might be a very small part of it, but it was going

01:25:19.520 to make her look like a heroine. And she was stunned to watch Tiger King, which does not make Carol

01:25:25.560 look like a heroine and, um, you know, suggestion, suggest she might be a murderer and attacks her

01:25:31.660 wildlife sanctuary and all that. And now she wants nothing to do with this part two. Even apparently

01:25:37.400 the director had said, I don't, I don't want it to do like more in the series. Cause I just want it

01:25:44.240 to stand as is, but it was such catnip, pardon the pun for America. They had to do it. Uh, PS and sad

01:25:50.920 news. Joe Exotic today, uh, tweeted out or I don't know, he can't tweet. He's in prison,

01:25:55.420 but he released, uh, that he has an aggressive, an aggressive cancer. He said in June, he has

01:26:01.700 prostate cancer. And today he says it's aggressive. He wants to get out and compassionate leave. Um,

01:26:06.900 could be vying for a part three. We'll see you guys. Great to have you here. Great to see the

01:26:11.740 gang back together. I listen tomorrow. So excited. Jason Whitlock's going to be here to talk about that

01:26:17.580 insane Colin Kaepernick Netflix series. Yes. That's appointment listening. Download the show

01:26:23.100 on Apple, Pandora, Spotify, Stitcher, youtube.com slash Megan Kelly. We'll see you tomorrow.

01:26:27.780 Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show. No BS, no agenda and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - November 04, 2021

Tuesday's Red Wave and the Kyle Rittenhouse Trial, with Victor Davis Hanson, Jonna Spilbor, and Arthur Aidala ｜ Ep. 196

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