00:05:49.420And almost to the end, he had real doubts about whether this was the guy.
00:05:52.960But the kind of evidence Max wanted was it was so hard to get in the Unabomb investigation.
00:06:01.120The guy, I mean, we now know as Ted Kaczynski, he was so clever.
00:06:06.100He was brilliant in hiding his identity.
00:06:09.500He was at least a couple of steps ahead of you guys on how you might detect identity and even actively taking steps to plant evidence in his bombs that he knew you'd run down to make it look like it was accidentally placed there.
00:06:24.300But it was, in fact, an attempt to mislead you.
00:06:26.380He actually spent just as much time doing that, Megan, just as you laid out, as he did building the bombs.
00:06:34.020For example, at one point, and of course, we confirmed all this later.
00:06:37.820We found this out when we searched his cabin.
00:06:40.240But at one point, he was in the men's room in the bus station at the in Missoula, Montana, and he found a couple of hairs on the floor.
00:06:51.800And later, he would put those two human hairs between layers of electrical tape in one of his bombs.
00:06:58.400Well, he was thinking that when we found the debris in this terrible crime scene, he would actually we would actually think that it was someone's DNA, probably the bomber, when, in fact, it would have nothing to do with this case.
00:07:10.980He would use wood and metals in putting these bombs together.
00:07:14.800At one point, the FBI lab referred to him as the junkyard bomber.
00:07:18.740And so he would file down the metal so he could eliminate fingerprints if he thought there were any there.
00:07:28.220He thought of disguises when he would go purchase and acquire everything from junk at a junkyard to something he might buy at a hardware store.
00:07:35.720He would take the jackets off of batteries so that we couldn't trace the batch of batteries.
00:07:41.840So he was doing everything he could think of to try and deceive and lead us in another direction and confuse.
00:07:49.940And I think that certainly worked to his advantage for those years.
00:07:54.520Right, because it's not in reading your book and so on.
00:07:56.920And it's not like the FBI was full of a bunch of fools who just didn't know what they were doing, though.
00:08:01.100There was a lack of appetite for a period of years to really devote all the resources necessary toward this case because he went quiet for about six years.
00:08:09.800And so the FBI kind of, you know, maybe die, whatever.
00:08:13.280It wasn't that the FBI was a bunch of dunderheads.
00:08:16.220It was that this guy was clever in a really disturbing criminal way.
00:08:23.080When I heard your description of the bombs, the one just now and the ones you give in your book, it occurred to me, weirdly, there was love put into them.
00:08:33.300Like, the guy loved the bomb itself, though he hated anybody involved in sort of the university or industrial complex and so on.
00:08:41.000Like, we'll get into the reasons he was doing it.
00:08:44.000He was very, very careful, very meticulous in putting those bombs together and would really take it hard when he would later read, as he was doing his research, that the bomb didn't function properly.
00:08:56.680And you see that in a number of these bombings.
00:08:59.080He would later write something to the effect that, damn, I messed this up or I didn't do this right, really bothering me, really making me angry.
00:09:12.960And to kind of add to one of the points you made, we also didn't understand at that period of time as much as we thought we did about the lone wolf serial bomber.
00:09:23.360We simply hadn't had many cases like that.
00:09:26.120And we hadn't really shared information or been trained in that kind of thing.
00:09:30.620So we had to almost put together our own training, our own educational process, not only for us who were responsible for the case, but for everyone who was touching it.
00:09:40.260And so we actually built that into this case so that we could all be thinking of and learning as we went along.
00:09:46.280And also, we wanted to make sure we could pass all of this along if, in fact, it all came out as it ended up so that other people would be able to use some of this and some of the things we did later on.
00:09:58.460Yes, I definitely want to get into that, like what was learned, because what's fascinating about the story is you spent all this time trying to figure out who this was.
00:10:47.740Well, in the first few years, the targets of his bombs seem to be university campuses, university professors and airlines, and especially the first four bombs.
00:10:59.100So the FBI, particularly on major cases like this, finds that it's helpful to add some sort of title such as we added to this.
00:11:08.980And they call this case Unabomb for UNA universities and and airlines bombing.
00:11:17.260So Unabomb became the name of this investigation, major case that it was.
00:11:22.540And then at some point, someone, I think, back east started referring to him as the Unabomber.
00:11:28.360So Unabomb and Unabomber not only became how we identified with the case, but it also really stuck with the public when they finally started learning about the Unabomber and what was going on.
00:11:40.420So that's how Unabomber came into existence.
00:11:43.780I never knew that until I started studying for this interview.
00:11:46.220I always thought it was like uni as in one guy, Unabomber, you know, and I guess I just never paid attention to the spelling or thought much about it.
00:12:07.460In fact, the first bomb and we'll go back and do this however you would like.
00:12:11.200But later on, when we assembled as the ultimate team that took this to the finish line, we went back and reinvestigated all of these crimes.
00:47:36.940And said, no, you're not going back to New Jersey.
00:47:39.220Told them I'm not coming back to New Jersey.
00:47:41.340And about this time, Max said, and another thing, you people don't even know this case.
00:47:48.160You don't even understand some of the leads were working in the case.
00:47:50.920And so that started us down the road of what you mentioned at the break before we knew it
00:47:55.880a few weeks or a couple of weeks later.
00:47:57.980Director Freeh was on his way to see us all at the FBI in San Francisco.
00:48:03.940And of particular concern, and kind of to show you how things can work in the Bureau, he put out the word and he told the SAC, you don't need to be at this meeting.
00:48:12.940I want to talk to the Unabom agents and the people working Unabom and Turchia.
00:48:18.800So, of course, you can imagine how Jim is feeling about all this.
00:50:30.740How they caught the Unabomber right after this break.
00:50:34.180So by the time, Terry, of that meeting with FBI Director Freeh and Max going off and you and Jim Freeman just trying to jump up and down and say, you know, we need resources.
00:50:54.880The Unabomber had already just killed another man.
00:50:58.220He would go on to kill yet another man, Gilbert Murray in Sacramento.
00:51:03.400And then he would threaten to bring down an aircraft in flight, which you took very seriously for the reasons we discussed earlier.
00:51:11.260So but the biggest and most important break in the case was about to come.
00:51:17.540When did you first get word of the, quote, manifesto?
00:51:23.120So, Mr. Murray, as you mentioned, had been murdered in Sacramento, California in April of 1995 and just several days after the Oklahoma City bombing.
00:51:35.160So a number of people were concerned that maybe the bombing in Oklahoma City is connected to the Unabomber.
00:51:40.460Well, Kathy was very significant there as well because she provided the opinion that, look, our guy is a very meticulous killer of individual people.
00:51:51.980I mean, he's sending singular bombs to people and he's very careful in doing it.
00:51:57.700The person who wreaked havoc in Oklahoma is a mass murder.
00:52:16.320So we were able to maneuver through that because you can get distracted very easily in something like this.
00:52:20.840So now the Bureau has two major things going on because within days of the Oklahoma City bombing, we have the death of Gilbert Murray at the hands of the Unabomber, another terrible crime scene.
00:53:18.620And if it's published, we will desist from committing acts of terror.
00:53:24.640But we will reserve the right to commit espionage.
00:53:28.940And that always was interesting, Megan.
00:53:31.480But I have to tell you here very quickly that a number of years ago, you did an interview of William Ayers, a radical weather underground terrorist.
00:55:40.260So you ultimately decide, publish it, tell them to do it.
00:55:44.640And you really thought in the end, there will be somebody out there in reading a 35,000 word manifesto who will recognize phrases, words, ideas, philosophies that this guy holds so strongly.
00:56:00.140There's no way he hasn't expressed them to others.
00:56:04.700The Washington Post, right, printed the manifesto.
00:56:08.580You had FBI agents staked out at the various locations in the relevant location where you thought the Unabomber could possibly be California watching.
00:56:27.700So between the time of the publication of the manifesto on September 20th or 19th, 1995, and the middle of February, we received probably close to 55,000 phone calls and tips with people turning in, you know, wives turning in their husbands for the rewards, girlfriends turning in boyfriends and all that kind of thing.
00:56:51.480But by this time, we really knew a lot about the Unabomber.
00:56:55.100In fact, the behavioral science unit said, look, you basically solved the case.
00:57:01.620And we're all looking at each other like, well, that would be hopeful, wouldn't it?
00:57:05.640So when we got the manifesto and we recommended eventually publication, it was based on the idea that we had a lot of meetings, as I mentioned to you.
00:57:16.140And I mentioned in one of the meetings that I had a high school teacher.
00:57:19.440His name was Larry Lawson, and he taught creative writing.
00:57:22.440And ironically, I stayed away from math and tried to stay into stuff like creative writing in high school.
00:57:28.300And he told us, no two people write alike.
00:57:34.800And so we said, look, we know so much about Unabomber.
00:57:37.960We need to recommend now that there's one piece we're lacking.
00:57:42.460This manifesto could now be the thing that gives us that piece.
00:57:45.820And so we need to recommend publication.
00:57:48.880And so off we went, Jim Freeman and Kathy Puckett and myself to Louis Free.
00:57:56.920We had a meeting with all the bureau brass there, briefed the case and said, we recommend publication of the Unabomber Manifesto in the Washington Post.
00:58:05.760We went across the street to the AG, did the same thing.
00:58:09.800They approved it, and it was published on the 19th.
00:58:13.160And by February 14th, we got the call we needed.
00:58:18.160And it was essentially, like all things Unabomber, it didn't come easy.
00:58:23.560It was on the overhead speaker system.
00:58:27.840Anybody from the Unabomber Task Force, can you pick up on such and such a line?
00:58:31.460Well, Joel Moss, who was the supervisor of the suspect squad, listened to this paging for about three tries.
00:58:38.880And finally, he puts down what he's doing.
00:58:41.300He picks it up because he obviously hoped somebody else would answer it.
00:58:44.740He's up to his eyeballs in alligators with thousands of Unabombed suspects.
00:58:49.320And he gets on the phone with another agent, Molly Flynn in Washington Metropolitan Field Office.
00:58:54.340She has received a 23-page essay from an individual, an attorney named Anthony Bussegli in Washington.
00:59:03.360Anthony Bussegli had dealt with the FBI before.
00:59:05.860He had a client approaching who gave him this, and they were worried that someone close to them could be the Unabomber.
00:59:12.380But they wanted to find out a little bit before they volunteered who they were.
00:59:16.380So Molly Flynn sent the essay to the bureau, and the bureau lab looked at it, and they came back and said, this isn't typed on the Unabomber's typewriter.
01:00:06.260We go to lunch, and I cancel out on Jim.
01:00:09.100Well, we end up sitting there when Jim Freeman comes into the same place for eating.
01:00:12.420And so you stood me up for your friends here, huh?
01:00:16.340Well, we had the talk about the 23-page essay, started reading it that night, and our world had changed forever.
01:00:26.000You could not read the 23-page essay, believe in the strategy we were following, and not believe that this was the golden ticket.
01:00:34.460There were phrases that he used in both what turned out to be letters to his brother and in the manifesto that were just too identifiable and unique to him, Ted Kaczynski.
01:01:29.760And the next morning, of course, our entire discussion now turns to the 23-page essay and the manifesto.
01:01:37.480And as it turned out, David Kaczynski, Ted's brother, was married to a woman named Linda.
01:01:46.220And she would later describe the genesis of her suspicion as between the two of them, she apparently was the first to suspect that it was Ted, David's brother.
01:01:55.520You write in your book, she was in Paris in August 1995 when she read an article about the Unabomber in an international edition of a newspaper.
01:02:01.700Her anxiety grew as the Unabomber was described as a loner, probably from Chicago, check, check, who had likely lived in Utah and Northern California, check, check.
01:02:13.980Linda had never met Ted, but this was consistent with her knowledge of him.
01:02:19.640And then it had excerpts of the manifesto, which seemed a lot like Ted's letters to her husband.
01:02:25.280And you go on to say that one of the things she realized was that she and David had been asked by Ted Kaczynski, David's brother, for money a couple of times.
01:02:38.700And he'd been living like a hermit in the middle of Montana in some cabin.
01:02:41.720So they were a little puzzled by why he would need money anyway.
01:02:44.220But they deduced that he used their money to make bombs.
01:02:52.660And especially the last two bombings in November of 94, he'd asked for $1,000.
01:02:57.880And in December of 94, he asked for $2,000.
01:03:01.460And so, of course, we had the December 94 event involving Mr. Moser and then the follow up, Mr. Murray in 95.
01:03:08.700So it was just frightening to think that they were absolutely right.
01:03:14.920And we felt really badly that that could be the case.
01:03:18.360But in fact, that's what it turned out to be.
01:03:20.520He was getting money from them to finance those last two bombings.
01:03:24.800Now, another phrase in the in the writings that matched that there was a comparison between he would write, you can't eat your cake and have it, too, which is a reversal of the saying.
01:03:37.900The saying is you can't have your cake and eat it, too.
01:03:44.980Eventually, we would see that in several places.
01:03:47.480But that showed up in the the manifest the the 22 page essay.
01:03:53.280And it showed up when we went to visit Wanda and his mom and she had information and all kinds of things in a steamer trunk that Theodore owned.
01:04:04.620And and he had left her with her many years earlier and said, I don't want it anymore.
01:04:33.860And and so earlier when we when you and I spoke and we talked about those two early letters, the Ralph Kloppenberg letter and the history of science and then the Enoch Fisher letter that had prompted us to do a project.
01:04:47.680And we had a number of investigative projects that we worked on.
01:04:50.560And one of those projects had to do with interviewing professors at universities.
01:04:55.400So we had become in fact, Joel had become our expert on the history of science.
01:04:59.780And we found that there were 44 American universities and colleges across the country that enrolled 400 people in the the discipline history of science.
01:05:25.520But he was there to learn about what history of science means.
01:05:30.140So all of this is fresh on our mind when Theodore Kaczynski shows up as a suspect.
01:05:35.380And lo and behold, when we go to start doing all the basics that we always did with any suspect, and one of them was to get all their school transcripts, lo and behold, there's a course that Theodore took early on in Harvard or University of Michigan called History of Science, The Introduction to History of Science.
01:05:52.860So he had a creative side, and he would pull on that when he was putting together these bombs or putting together ideas.
01:05:59.720So this is how all of these things, whether they were phrases or those kinds of things from the investigation or passages from the manifesto or passages from the 23-page essay that matched the manifesto.
01:06:14.560So all of this started falling together, and these pieces became the foundation, the building block of this search warrant.
01:07:15.660And we had thus a timeline during the entirety of the Unabom series of events.
01:07:20.620And we only ended up finding one contradiction in that entire 16 years, using all these postmarks and all the other things we used.
01:07:30.160So it was all falling together, and we kept going back and saying, no, we're close to having what we need to get into that cabin, and we need to do it.
01:07:45.240And eventually it took the FBI director, Louis Free, and the attorney general to simply bypass all the advisors and committees set up to give us advice about this.
01:07:56.560It took the two of them to say, look, we trust the UTF.
01:08:20.120And, of course, Director Free was really into it from day one.
01:08:23.440So that was the kind of relationship we now have.
01:08:26.400I mean, we're almost – it may be that they're high-level government officials, but everybody, as we said at the beginning, everybody was at the right – for us was the right person in the right spot at the right time.
01:08:39.860And, you know, the egos had been tossed to the floor.
01:08:43.960The emotion, you could show your emotion.
01:09:24.520They got the search warrant, which wasn't all they wanted, but it was good enough, as it would turn out, and wound up in the snowy mountains of Montana.
01:09:33.680Tons of agents waiting for Ted Kaczynski.
01:09:38.300There was a whole ruse, as you can imagine, had to be executed very carefully so that no one got hurt, understanding this is a bomb maker inside of this cabin.
01:09:56.920So now you go out to the mountains of Montana, the middle of nowhere, and you've got to start putting the pieces in place for, you know, what you hope will be an eventual arrest.
01:10:12.860And the question I had in reading your book where you're talking about, you know, now you've got to start interviewing the locals.
01:10:17.820You get some important locals on your side.
01:10:19.500You start interviewing bus drivers because Ted Kaczynski only has a bicycle.
01:10:23.380So how is he getting from the middle of nowhere down to Sacramento, into Utah, wherever he's going?
01:10:35.800Let's build a case, a case that Max would love to show actual proof that this guy has been in the places we suspect he's been during the relevant time frames.
01:10:45.440And what I kept thinking, reading how you guys had to do this, was, A, just arrest the damn guy.
01:10:52.300And, B, weren't you worried someone was going to leak either, you know, outside, you know, to random people who might spread it, or, B, to Ted Kaczynski?
01:11:04.260Like, how could you assure yourself that people weren't friends with him?
01:11:08.420Or maybe they just blabbed to some random person, like, the FBI contacted me.
01:11:12.000They asked me all these fun questions.
01:11:13.200They think that there's some guy in the woods.
01:11:57.200I know you don't think much of Theodore Kaczynski as the Unabomber, but you're the guy that has to be in Montana all the time to take care of and manage the small team we're going to send with you.
01:12:09.700And we need you to go to those hotels, motels, try to try to somehow place this guy out of that cabin, start interviewing people.
01:12:18.560And, of course, all this has to be done discreetly, and we can't even mention the word Unabomber.
01:12:25.240So Max, of course, being Max, he came right back.
01:12:30.020He goes into Montana, buys all his winter clothes, and sets about doing what he has to do.
01:12:36.380And he and I talked several times every day, and he directed a team of about three people, which would start to grow almost every day after we first got started.
01:12:47.040But in that time, a lot of things happened, and we needed all these things for our search warrant.
01:12:54.240Max was able to go pay a visit to Butch Gehring.
01:12:57.200It was on the Butch Gehring lumber mill property that Theodore Kaczynski and his brother David had actually purchased the house or the land for the cabin that Kaczynski built in 1971.
01:13:09.420So Max went and had a talk with Gehring to learn about the Unabomber or learn about Kaczynski.
01:13:15.640And Gehring was, as we said, wearing the team jersey after that.
01:13:20.560He was willing and ready to help and provide whatever kind of information or help to us we needed.
01:14:02.860He was brought into the whole Unabomber picture of this.
01:14:05.800And so he was able to be a goldmine of information about Kaczynski because he was always running into him out into Kaczynski out in the forest.
01:16:08.760And like, what are you thinking at this point?
01:16:11.320You know, because the pictures do show this disheveled, crazy looking mountain man who looks just like he hasn't seen a brush or a shower in 20 years.
02:06:29.180Whether this well, anyway, whether this Lexus SUV, even at whatever it was, 24 miles an hour, let's say,
02:06:36.800whether it would whether the taillight would break upon hitting a man and that that this was they couldn't replicate this.
02:06:44.300The defense as they tried over and over and over to recreate the scene of this alleged incident that the prosecution said happened here to take his life.
02:06:55.920I don't know, like that a man made of flesh and bone might not be enough force to to take out the taillight on an SUV backing up into him.
02:07:06.020What was what was the back and forth around that?
02:07:08.000Yeah. And, you know, Megan, it's impossible to really fully dig into each one of these individual aspects in just an hour or six hours.
02:07:14.900But if I showed you his body so so I'm a personal injury lawyer now, I handle a lot of truck accidents, car accident case, pedestrian accident case.
02:07:23.060So a person that gets hit by a car and we all kind of know what that looks like, especially if somebody gets hit at 24 miles an hour.
02:07:29.080I have had clients die at 24 miles an hour getting hit by a car.
02:07:46.240The back of his head hitting the ground, basically, or hitting a ledge was the cause of his death.
02:07:52.200And one of the fatal flaws of the prosecutor's case the second time around is their expert showed an example of another pedestrian getting hit by a car and they passed away.
02:08:02.300And they're saying, see, look, this can happen.
02:08:04.460The problem is the report on that person had broken bones, internal damage, exactly what you would expect for somebody that got hit by a car.
02:08:13.220And the M.E., who was not hired by either side, could not determine that he died as a result of a car accident or that it was a homicide.
02:11:05.240Very interesting, Peter, that he's saying that we were between actual innocence and just not guilty, but did not speak of any holdouts saying, no, I think she did it.
02:11:16.560Yeah, and I think that really goes to the investigation and the way that this case was presented.
02:11:21.840There was holes everywhere, no matter where you want to look.
02:11:24.860If you want to compare the experts, if you want to compare the medicine, if you want to compare the car data, if you want to compare the credibility of witnesses, because that was a really big thing.
02:11:32.260If you noticed, juror number one, the foreperson said after the first witness, I was like, oh, wow.
02:11:46.700Do they have something to gain or lose by this testimony?
02:11:49.220Does it make sense in the context of the rest of the testimony?
02:11:52.180And I just think that their credibility was hurt throughout the trial by the cross-examination and the other evidence presented by the defense.
02:12:02.140It would have been for the prosecution since they go first.
02:12:04.220And my understanding is when they went back for the second trial after the first jury was hung, they eliminated some of their more problematic cops, like the guy who was like, let's see the nudes and referring to Karen Reed in those disgusting terms you mentioned.
02:12:18.740He did not get called by the prosecution a second time.
02:15:42.780McCabe is who searched house long to die in the cold.
02:15:45.120So those are the people that she's suing for basically conspiring to pin this on her, violating her rights, civil conspiracy, trying to pin it on her and literally ruining her life.
02:16:01.200Because let's face it, nine times out of ten, more than that, the defendant actually is guilty, maybe got off on a technicality like O.J. or jury nullification in O.J.'s case.
02:16:12.040And the last thing they want to do is go back into court with anybody.
02:16:15.880You know, I was like, they know they kind of got away with it.
02:16:23.460Now, she also appears to need money because I'll tell you, we invited her to come in this show and she wanted tens of thousands of dollars.
02:16:35.920We don't pay for news, which does make me question how she wound up talking to Dateline and others because NBC is also not supposed to pay for news.
02:16:44.580In any event, she clearly is hard up for cash.
02:17:23.400So, you know, this is nothing like I know what kind of person she is or anything like that.
02:17:27.720But if this is true, what she's alleging, then she does deserve to be compensated for it, in my opinion.
02:17:34.680And I agree with you that she is standing on business basically at this point saying, I have the truth because she's been threatened and is going to be sued if it hasn't happened already for defamation, saying that she's defaming all these people, lying about them, creating this false narrative, which was one of the allegations in the O'Keefe complaint, in the wrongful death complaint.
02:17:52.800They also sued her for intentional infliction of emotional distress, saying she created this false narrative and pushed it out there in the media, and that they were injured because of that, and she caused them damages.
02:18:03.940So truth is an ultimate defense to defamation, and that's what she's standing on, that she has the truth.
02:18:15.300They're sticking with her and pushing forward on this case.
02:18:18.180And sometimes it's a money grab either way, right?
02:18:20.700Like, when you have a criminal case that you lost as a victim, I know you're not technically a party, but, and you still go forward on a civil litigation, you can still get a settlement.
02:18:31.320And from her perspective, too, if she just needed money and she's going to file this lawsuit and just get some money out of it, fine.
02:18:37.440It doesn't seem like that's what it is.
02:18:39.260And if this ends in a settlement, I'm going to assume it was a huge amount of money.
02:18:42.620So have those parties that she's now suing cross-filed against her for defamation yet?
02:18:52.100Because right now, I thought the only lawsuit she was actively facing was John O'Keefe's family suing her for wrongful death.
02:18:59.680But have those other parties that she's now messing with cross-filed against her for defamation yet?
02:19:03.800They have come out and said publicly that they are going to file defamation cases, but the way it works in these civil courts is she files a complaint, they file their motions to dismiss first, and then if they can't dismiss her lawsuit, then they would file their answer and their counterclaims.
02:19:32.520You know, in a way, we heard from the jurors, it was kind of easy for them because they were like, my God, they haven't come anywhere near this very high standard of beyond a reasonable doubt.
02:19:41.280But the prosecution may have come near 51% more likely, 49% less likely that she did it, or the other way, could go the other way.
02:20:01.660They also had a much more boring prosecutor, but just kind of a normal prosecutor who put everybody up there and was like, tell us what happened.
02:20:08.980They repeated the same facts a million times.
02:20:11.400And while reports from that jury room where they were all not guilty on second degree murder, there was a split.
02:20:16.900And the majority thought that she was guilty of manslaughter or at least taking his life in some sort of way with the car in that first round of trial.
02:20:26.000But it ended up being a split verdict and a home jury.
02:20:41.160It can kind of burden shift and confuse the jury.
02:20:43.660But just like you're saying, there were some jurors that thought that she did hit him with her car throughout the first trial.
02:20:51.400So there's obviously the possibility that that could be proven in a civil court.
02:20:57.500But you would be amazed and appalled at the discovery that was not turned over in the first trial that was turned over before the second trial.
02:21:05.400At the discovery they're going to be able to get in this civil litigation that they did not get their hands on in the criminal case.
02:21:10.680I think there are going to be so many added factors and facts during the civil process that I'm not sure we know exactly what it's going to look like yet.
02:21:21.900We mentioned a couple of these witnesses who were inside that house, the Alberts and the McCaves.
02:21:26.640They spoke out after the not guilty verdict in June.
02:21:30.260Let's take a listen to what they sounded like then.
02:33:23.020And he basically said, if you solve these puzzles, you'll have my name.
02:33:26.860And in 2010, when we confronted Ed Edwards about being a Zodiac killer after we solved the 13-character cipher, Edward Edwards' name is 13 characters.
02:33:37.180And what he had done is taken the letters in his name and reversed-imaged the letters as hieroglyphics.
02:33:44.340So you could never solve the Zodiac case without knowing the name Edward Edwards.
02:34:06.200And then at the end of today's show, we're going to bring you a sound bite from a longtime cold case investigator who we really know and trust.
02:34:14.540And he, too, has looked into the Zodiac case and has a word of caution for everyone.
02:34:35.640As near as I can tell from what I've read,
02:34:38.220that the murders that we know the Zodiac was responsible for took place, began in the night, the late 1960s and then went on to like the early 1970s.
02:34:51.340Five that we had to like how do we know that those are his?
02:34:55.680It was defined by the San Francisco and Vallejo police departments who were in charge of all these murder cases strictly around the San Francisco Bay Area.
02:35:06.560But I will tell you, and I may be jumping the gun, but our team is really believes it's now closer to 10 victims around the country from San Diego to Lake Tahoe.