The Megyn Kelly Show - Unhinged Leftists Celebrate CEO Murderer and Smear Daniel Penny, and Gay Wedding Cake Update, with Heather Mac Donald, Kristen Waggoner, and Jack Phillips

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00:00:31.000 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:42.680 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:46.060 We are getting more information now on the alleged suspect in the, well he's the suspect,

00:00:51.340 and the alleged murderer of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson.

00:00:56.660 Yesterday, Luigi Mangione was identified and arrested in a Pennsylvania McDonald's in the morning.

00:01:02.800 Police reported, because some people thought it was the McRib, it's come back and they didn't think he could resist going in there.

00:01:08.300 A lot of people get sucked back into McDonald's thanks to this thing.

00:01:11.700 It was the morning. I don't, it might have been a McMuffin.

00:01:13.860 Um, police reported that when they approached Mangione, who's being hailed by the left as some sort of a hero for committing murder in the streets of New York and shooting a man in the back,

00:01:25.080 father of two, including a 16-year-old boy, this is their new hero, uh, you know, what a badass he is for standing up for others.

00:01:33.760 Okay, you know what, he basically peed his pants when the cops approached him in the McDonald's.

00:01:38.220 He started shaking just upon being asked the question of whether he'd recently been in New York, this guy who killed a man by shooting him in the back.

00:01:48.500 That's your leftist hero. It's just so gross.

00:01:51.840 Can I just say, I'm really over this nonsense. This guy's not a hero at all.

00:01:57.380 We should not be lauding his good looks, which really aren't existent, um, all over the internet.

00:02:04.940 When Tim Miller, ye of the, I won't ask Doug Emhoff a single question about his alleged assault of a woman in your stupid podcast is out there talking about how he wants to get together with this guy.

00:02:18.300 How he's not to mention the Boston marathon bomber. These people are fucking sick. Sorry. They just, they're sick.

00:02:23.860 Um, and I just want to say one thing. It is today, December 10th, right? It's December 10th, 2024.

00:02:32.500 It was December 15th, 1985 that my own father died. He died of a heart attack, an unexpected heart attack in our home at age 45, 10 days before Christmas.

00:02:43.680 And I was a 15 year old girl. And it was of course, as any sane person already can see deeply traumatic for me and my entire family.

00:02:53.860 And it's something you never get over. It changes your life in a profound way.

00:02:59.280 And so this guy, Brian Thompson had two boys. I think one was 18, one was 16 for sure. One was 16 and their father was killed three weeks before Christmas.

00:03:11.180 And these assholes are out there talking about how they want to sleep with the killer, how hot he is.

00:03:18.880 What a hero he is for taking out the CEO of a company in an unpopular industry.

00:03:27.140 Unpopular. And at some point we'll discuss why they're unpopular. As I said yesterday, now's not that time, but I mean, good luck getting through any piece of the healthcare system without insurance.

00:03:36.560 Never mind government insurance, which is the realistic alternative to the private health insurance that we get.

00:03:42.700 I mean, you may think they're evil. They're a necessary evil and they actually make more procedures possible than they do deny the ones that cause people to go nuts over them.

00:03:53.060 I just, this is so wrong. What are we doing? A 16 year old's life has been changed forever. And that 18 year old as well.

00:04:01.260 They don't have a dad anymore. Young boys who don't have their dad. Screw you for talking about his abs. You disgusting cretins.

00:04:09.980 I'm just, oh, gross over these gross people. We'll get to Taylor Lorenz on with peers.

00:04:16.240 We've learned more about this guy's personal history, including that this alleged assassin was an Ivy League graduate.

00:04:24.720 As we did tell you yesterday, when this was breaking, he went to University of Pennsylvania from a very prominent Maryland family who owned several country clubs, as well as at least at his grandfather's generation.

00:04:36.240 He's the one who seems to have made the money, a radio station, country clubs, a real estate company.

00:04:43.520 And it is being reported that a turning point for the suspect may have been a back surgery earlier this year.

00:04:50.540 He had some sort of a surgery and then he reportedly went dark, stopped talking to his friends, stopped talking to his family.

00:04:56.400 His family was sounding the alarm as recently as November on where is Luigi?

00:05:01.300 We can't find him and he's not in touch with anybody. People, friends, sending him messages online saying, are you coming to my wedding as you said you were or not?

00:05:09.480 Where are you? He went off to Hawaii. He tried a surf lesson. This is post his back surgery, I believe.

00:05:16.300 And it was so debilitating. He was in bed for a week.

00:05:19.620 Okay, so meantime, you've got the cretins, as I pointed out. The worst is Taylor Lorenz, who, I mean, the body wasn't even warm of Brian Thompson and she was expressing how happy she was that he was dead.

00:05:34.460 Um, we're also going to get to more on the insane leftist reaction to Daniel Penny's acquittal yesterday in New York.

00:05:42.880 And there's no one to better ask, no one better to break it all down in response to our questions than my first guest, Heather McDonald.

00:05:50.280 She's a fellow at the Manhattan Institute and contributing editor for City Journal.

00:05:54.480 She's also author of the book When Race Trumps Merit.

00:05:57.580 I mean, she's truly, she might be the number one, but she is one of the top intellectuals in the world.

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00:07:04.740 And it's a pleasure to have her on.

00:07:06.680 Heather, welcome back.

00:07:07.640 Thank you so much, Megan.

00:07:08.500 It's great to be with you.

00:07:09.860 I'm so grossed out by this reaction to the murder of this insurance company's CEO.

00:07:15.320 And it's pretty widespread on the left, how they are lionizing the alleged murderer.

00:07:22.740 And I mentioned Taylor Lorenz because she's pretty indicative of it.

00:07:26.580 She worked for The New York Times.

00:07:28.000 She worked for The Washington Post.

00:07:30.080 She was fired by The Washington Post this fall when she posted on her Instagram, Joe Biden

00:07:35.500 is a war criminal.

00:07:36.440 When they chastised her for posting such a thing as a so-called reporter, she denied she

00:07:43.060 had done it and claimed she'd been hacked.

00:07:45.180 They fired her, not believing her excuse.

00:07:47.420 And then a month or so later, she definitely posted on her social media, Joe Biden is a

00:07:52.280 war criminal.

00:07:53.180 Kind of removing the mystery about whether it had been her the first time.

00:07:56.760 And now this woman is all over online on her sub stack and elsewhere trying to justify

00:08:01.340 this man's murder and goes on with Piers Morgan on his YouTube show last night saying

00:08:07.200 the following.

00:08:09.340 I do believe in the sanctity of life.

00:08:11.540 And I think that's why I felt, along with so many other Americans, joy, unfortunately,

00:08:17.300 you know, because it feels like.

00:08:19.420 Serious?

00:08:19.860 I mean.

00:08:20.820 Joy in a man's execution?

00:08:22.500 Maybe not joy, but certainly not.

00:08:24.280 No, certainly not empathy.

00:08:26.140 He's a father and he's being young down in the middle of Manhattan.

00:08:30.220 Why is that making you joyful?

00:08:31.600 So are the tens of thousands of Americans, innocent Americans, who died because greedy

00:08:40.820 health insurance executives like this one push policies of denying care to the most vulnerable

00:08:46.180 people.

00:08:46.420 Should they all be killed then?

00:08:47.840 Should they all be killed, these health care executives?

00:08:50.020 Would that make you even more joyful?

00:08:52.600 No.

00:08:53.500 Joyful or even to even say you're not empathetic about something.

00:08:56.140 It's like somebody losing their life when they leave behind two young boys.

00:08:59.200 Taylor, I don't mean to be rude, but why the fuck are you laughing all the time?

00:09:02.500 I don't get it.

00:09:03.940 Sorry, apologies for my language, but honestly, I find it unbelievable.

00:09:08.060 What are you laughing at?

00:09:09.260 Serious, I am laughing at Tommy's insane mischaracterization of why people are angry.

00:09:16.280 Okay, your thoughts on it, Heather?

00:09:21.420 Wow.

00:09:22.000 We have a real problem in this country.

00:09:24.440 The left has a real problem.

00:09:26.560 I found it, in a sense, frustrating to hear you initially, Megan, rebutting the claim that

00:09:33.660 this was somehow a justified act, because it seemed like it's tragic that we have to concede

00:09:39.240 that much to even engage with these people.

00:09:41.960 It should be so patently obvious that you're not allowed to kill because you disagree with

00:09:46.680 somebody politically.

00:09:47.600 And to even engage in that argument is to concede too much, but obviously we need to.

00:09:54.140 Let's recall, these are the same group of intersectional allies that also celebrated

00:09:59.760 the Hamas attacks.

00:10:03.820 There's something that has gone fundamentally wrong with the left's understanding about

00:10:09.780 some basic moral truths, which is you don't get to narcissistically kill some figurehead

00:10:16.060 because you'd feel like you're in pain after back surgery, and you don't get to kill on

00:10:21.620 the basis of political beliefs.

00:10:24.460 But we also have assassinations on Trump.

00:10:28.080 This is being a poison that's being bred in the universities, which proceeds with the

00:10:33.820 Manichaean worldview about the evil of anything associated with capitalism, with anything

00:10:40.580 associated with Western civilization, and that glorifies alleged victims, alleged marginalized,

00:10:48.240 and clearly is very closely positioned to the next step, which is that it's okay to kill.

00:10:57.780 This is, Lawrence is basically a mainstream media figure.

00:11:03.000 Yeah.

00:11:03.820 And is giving voice to what we've seen all over the internet, thirsting after this guy

00:11:10.580 and celebrating his looks and counting him as some sort of courageous guy, as they say,

00:11:17.080 who shoots a man dead in the street, an unarmed man in the back.

00:11:21.080 And in the left's world, this is courage.

00:11:25.140 Here is that guy, Tim Miller, who couldn't find the stones, Heather, to ask Doug Emhoff,

00:11:29.160 who he had right across from him, right after the story broke that he had, according to his

00:11:36.020 ex-girlfriend, slapped her with an open hand across the face so hard outside of a festival

00:11:41.860 in Cannes, France, that she spun.

00:11:44.520 This is like a year before he got together with Kamala Harris.

00:11:46.920 He couldn't find the stones to ask him the question, would you like to respond to that?

00:11:51.400 Is it true that you hit this woman, you who are being lauded by the left as the new version

00:11:56.320 of masculinity, non-toxic, the way the Republican version is?

00:12:00.920 This guy, Tim Miller, couldn't find the stones to ask him those questions.

00:12:04.600 But here he is today with his thoughts about this alleged killer of CEO Brian Thompson.

00:12:11.340 There's a lot to unpack here, including his six-pack would be among the things you need

00:12:17.840 to unpack.

00:12:18.600 He did post it, yes.

00:12:20.300 He says, a very attractive man, and I am attracted to the shooter.

00:12:25.700 And I have to just say, not exactly my type.

00:12:30.260 I mean, objectively handsome.

00:12:31.520 I think once you kill someone.

00:12:32.660 Not exactly my type, yeah.

00:12:34.380 In that category, kind of the Boston Marathon bomber was kind of a little bit more of my wheelhouse.

00:12:40.740 He works for the bulwark.

00:12:44.780 You know, I have to feel sometimes that the anarchism of the early 20th century, that

00:12:52.320 we're past that, that that kind of solipsistic embrace of evil and of the notion that you

00:13:01.380 have a right to go around killing people that you disagree with, we're certainly never going

00:13:07.020 to return to that degree of, of contagious insanity.

00:13:12.000 But listening to this, I don't know.

00:13:14.940 We are moving in that direction.

00:13:17.280 You know, this is not, and it's not even an underground movement.

00:13:20.920 You know, the anarchists were, were understood as enemies of the state and they, they did everything

00:13:25.940 they could to cover their tracks and, and, and cover their propaganda to a certain extent,

00:13:31.240 although they were also out there leafleting, but their, their homicidal intentions were

00:13:36.240 not exactly out in the open.

00:13:38.100 But these are people that are going onto social media, the most public realm in the world and

00:13:44.140 proclaiming that they don't have a problem with murder.

00:13:47.080 I, I lack the language, Megan, to really describe as in a sort of a Cassandra-like position,

00:13:54.140 what may be going on here.

00:13:56.800 We all thought that there was a course correction, uh, with the Trump election and people are,

00:14:02.840 are saying no more with the, the identity-based grievance, which this is related to in, in

00:14:10.480 a certain way.

00:14:11.880 Uh, but we clearly have a very, very, uh, long road to, to tread to get back to some kind

00:14:19.460 of shared value system.

00:14:20.960 I mean, the irony, you know, you mentioned the Daniel Penny, Jordan Neely verdict that, that

00:14:26.020 this killer is being described as a hero.

00:14:29.100 And then an actual hero was being, uh, treated as a homicidal criminal and villain.

00:14:38.460 It, we're living in an upside down world, at least to the extent that you live in the elite,

00:14:43.260 uh, bubble ideology.

00:14:46.380 I have a lot for you on Daniel Penny today, which I will do next, but you're exactly right.

00:14:51.720 I mean, I think the Trump election was a declaration that the normies are with us.

00:14:57.760 We've reclaimed the normies who were leftist adjacent, you know, open-minded to self-flagellation

00:15:05.400 as required by BLM and the trans activists.

00:15:08.580 Like, okay, if that's what I need to do to be a good person, I'm open, I'm listening.

00:15:12.380 And now they've just been completely rejiggered to normalcy.

00:15:17.080 Wait a minute.

00:15:17.480 You people are the loons.

00:15:18.720 We're not doing that.

00:15:19.920 We're not opening the border.

00:15:21.500 I'm going back with a side of reason.

00:15:23.500 I think they're back with us, but it doesn't mean the loons went away.

00:15:26.720 They're still a part of the Democrat party and they're vocal and they're not giving one

00:15:30.920 inch.

00:15:31.640 Taylor Lorenz is one, uh, example of that, but they're all over CNN and MSNBC in the wake

00:15:37.220 of Penny, which is the other big story today, saying all the things you'd expect them to

00:15:42.180 say about how we've normalized vigilantism, the same people, they, they see him as this

00:15:48.640 we've, we've, we've, we're celebrating a vigilante in the case of Penny, but on the

00:15:53.820 CEO, Brian Thompson, you've got some of those same people saying right on, you know, the

00:15:57.460 guy had some good points.

00:16:00.040 I don't know.

00:16:01.260 Um, I hope that there's more people like Piers Morgan out there in the mainstream media

00:16:06.560 that are distancing themselves from these views, because if they're not, uh, you're

00:16:10.960 allowing it to stay out there unrebutted.

00:16:13.540 And it's, um, you know, I, I think Trump is under constant threat of another assassination

00:16:19.540 to the extent that you whip people up.

00:16:22.340 And, and, and of course, let's be fair.

00:16:24.520 You know, the, the, the left probably thinks that the right's rhetoric is just as unhinged

00:16:29.500 and, and just as dangerous, just as apocryphal, uh, and, and unduly Manichaean that could

00:16:35.900 give rise to right-wing kooks and, and, you know, there's always a, uh, a risk about directly

00:16:43.820 linking rhetoric to action.

00:16:45.240 There should be a very, very wide berth for, uh, politically extreme rhetoric.

00:16:50.660 As long as you're not calling for violence, it's not clear that anybody that embraces a

00:16:57.100 certain kind of discourse should be held responsible for somebody who acts out in the name of that

00:17:02.260 discourse.

00:17:03.520 Um, so, you know, both sides view the other as engaged in completely unhinged rhetoric.

00:17:13.840 Nevertheless, I, I don't think there's anything comparable.

00:17:18.220 I mean, maybe there is, maybe there's some right-wing kooks that are, that are, that are

00:17:22.880 justifying in advance, uh, using violence against people you disagree with, but, uh, you know,

00:17:30.540 we've, we've seen the young people have completely lost understanding of the first amendment.

00:17:37.840 They do not understand fundamental principles of discourse of the free market of ideas that

00:17:44.020 the best way to, uh, counter ideas that you disagree with is to argue against them.

00:17:50.380 You don't silence people.

00:17:52.600 You don't, you don't arrogate to yourself the power of censorship.

00:17:56.400 So that's bad enough that we've lost sight of that fundamental principle of democracy, a

00:18:02.820 principle that has given power to the marginalized throughout the ages.

00:18:06.940 You have Frederick Douglass saying the thing that tyrants fear most is freedom of the press

00:18:12.820 because it allows those who oppose slavery to throw off their chains.

00:18:17.960 Now you have the left opposing the freedom of the press, but it's even worse than that.

00:18:24.740 It's even worse.

00:18:25.940 Now you have the left saying thou shalt kill people who you think are, are denying services

00:18:33.120 because you have a certain view of health insurance.

00:18:36.280 I, you know, this is a principle that is going to lead to a complete civil war.

00:18:42.880 Uh, there's many health insurance, uh, executives out there, as Piers Morgan said, should they

00:18:48.620 all be killed?

00:18:49.700 Follow the principle.

00:18:50.800 And the answer is yes.

00:18:52.120 And then you move on to oil executives, uh, to wall streets.

00:18:57.840 Absolutely.

00:18:58.560 Although, you know, wall street is it's, it's weird.

00:19:01.200 It's in sort of a transition mode because wall street is of course also very left.

00:19:05.400 So, uh, you know, we get to rail against capitalism except when we're drawing on billions to support

00:19:12.120 our left-wing campaigns.

00:19:13.320 So, but yeah, but it is interesting.

00:19:15.600 I mean, like, and then you move on of course, to politicians where it's like, uh, and certainly

00:19:20.320 nobody's advocating this.

00:19:21.420 I'm just saying that if you want to talk about a politician who's really had a massive effect

00:19:25.220 on healthcare, the first person to come to mind would be Barack Obama.

00:19:28.600 If you like your plan, you can keep your plan.

00:19:30.600 If you like your doctor, you can keep your law, your doctor, which was a lie.

00:19:33.720 And his Obamacare plan led to the loss of, uh, individual relationships between a patient

00:19:39.620 and his doctor over and over and over again, a patient and her plan over and over and over.

00:19:44.780 So if we're green lighting, we're now green lighting violence against public figures who

00:19:51.020 affect our healthcare.

00:19:52.720 How, how do they reconcile that?

00:19:54.280 I mean, how is it not a call for multiple assassinations?

00:19:57.400 It's just so such insanity.

00:19:59.560 And that's why I refuse to even have the discussion.

00:20:01.620 I refuse to have the discussion about the state of modern, uh, insurance care in America

00:20:06.240 right now.

00:20:07.100 Maybe at some point we'll discuss it, but certainly not in response to this lunatic who is being

00:20:11.560 covered like this, Heather, just to give you one other example.

00:20:13.660 Would you look at CNN talking about this murderer, this suspected murderer?

00:20:20.180 Watch this.

00:20:21.460 The reaction online is also just such a reinforcement of how much, uh, aesthetics, attractiveness.

00:20:28.140 I mean, like the shallowness of the American people, the American people who are online,

00:20:33.460 we'll say, um, is very much on display here.

00:20:35.960 Part of, yes, there's absolutely a bubbling anger about the, uh, inequity in the country

00:20:40.880 writ large and in the healthcare system, no question.

00:20:42.780 But so much of, you know, the clips we were watching at the top of this segment are driven

00:20:46.460 by the fact that this is, this is an attractive person.

00:20:48.760 I know we've got to drop the banner to show why.

00:20:50.720 And, and it's, it is deeply troubling that we are celebrating this, this person who's

00:20:55.860 committed cold-blooded murder, uh, because, you know, he clearly went to the gym, you know,

00:21:01.260 one take.

00:21:02.440 Okay.

00:21:02.940 So what happened in that clip for listening audience is that Casey hunt, the anchor chimes

00:21:08.100 in, we've got to drop the banner to show them why like show him his abs.

00:21:12.620 There's something incredibly crass, sophomoric, simple about the discussions these people are

00:21:19.840 having around this man who gunned down a fellow American.

00:21:23.000 We haven't seen an open assassination attempt like this in a long time, Heather.

00:21:28.260 And the seriousness is just missing.

00:21:31.940 Again, part of me rebels against us even having this conversation, Megan, we should not be having

00:21:38.080 to persuade other people that you don't get to kill a corporate executive because you disagree

00:21:44.620 with his policies.

00:21:45.740 Why are we drawn into this?

00:21:47.320 But if we didn't have it, I guess they'd go unchallenged.

00:21:51.460 Uh, but, but, you know, one wonders again and again, what common ground do we have now

00:21:58.680 with people on the progressive left and, and even liberals?

00:22:03.680 If you can't even agree, I used to think that, well, there's no common ground because we can't

00:22:09.500 even agree that chromosomes determine one's biological sex, that there is, we have made

00:22:16.740 this enormous progress in understanding genetics.

00:22:20.860 We should be celebrating that.

00:22:22.900 We have, we have cracked the genetic code.

00:22:25.720 This is one of the greatest feats of human understanding.

00:22:28.740 And now we're throwing that all out in, in favor of this completely politicized gender

00:22:35.020 theory view that in fact, sex is something assigned at birth, not, not written into every

00:22:41.900 single cell in our body and can be changed at will by people that decide they hate the

00:22:47.160 patriarchy.

00:22:47.740 I used to think if we can't agree about that, it's hopeless, but now it turns out it's, it's

00:22:53.400 even worse than that.

00:22:54.560 The, the fundamental law that you cannot kill, you shall not commit murder.

00:22:58.740 We can't even agree on that.

00:23:00.300 So what do we do?

00:23:02.100 I mean, what, no, we have to forge on without them.

00:23:04.800 We can, these are not people we can, we can reason with.

00:23:06.820 We just have to defeat them and forge on without them.

00:23:09.680 I do want to ask you just, you're not a psychologist or a psychiatrist, but it is bizarre

00:23:14.780 that this guy was valedictorian of this Tony boys school in Maryland, went on to the university

00:23:20.980 of Pennsylvania, where he got a BA and an MA in computer science, uh, engineering and

00:23:27.040 math, I think was his minor, uh, goes on to work for some tech companies, though.

00:23:32.060 I will say the employment history started to get a little sketchy.

00:23:34.940 They say he's worked, he worked for 10 different companies in the past 10 years.

00:23:38.620 Now that would have been six when he was 16 to 26, but it's not like he found a great

00:23:42.740 job and just kept it upon graduating from UPenn.

00:23:46.220 Um, I'll just show you a little bit from his high school graduation speech as valedictorian.

00:23:50.460 It, he wasn't particularly articulate or impressive.

00:23:52.800 I will admit, but he seemed normal.

00:23:56.900 He seemed normal.

00:23:57.940 And this is just, you know, eight years ago.

00:24:01.220 Listen to this.

00:24:02.200 It's Sot 12.

00:24:03.640 Just like, just like we've done these past few years, be exploring the unknown, whether

00:24:08.660 that be attending colleges across the country, traveling the world during gap years.

00:24:12.740 Fulfilling military service in foreign countries.

00:24:16.640 As we embrace the new, however, we won't forget the old.

00:24:19.960 Our friendships, values, and memories from Gilman will always stay with us.

00:24:25.680 So to the class of 2016, a kind of class that only comes around once every 50 years.

00:24:32.500 It's been an incredible journey.

00:24:34.200 And I simply can't imagine the last few years with any other group of guys.

00:24:37.320 All the advantages, education, uh, wealth, uh, apparently a nice family that was, was looking

00:24:47.420 for him when he went missing at age 26, couldn't find him, was doing its best to try to retrieve

00:24:51.520 him.

00:24:51.740 Lots of friends, you know, according to them, good looks.

00:24:55.340 I, it's just, it's very strange what would make him go from that to, I'll listen, uh, I'll

00:25:01.560 let you hear it from John Miller, who's in Intel analyst now on a CNN.

00:25:06.580 He's the chief law enforcement, uh, and Intel analyst talking about what was in his manifesto

00:25:11.160 that the police found on his person when they arrested him.

00:25:13.860 Sock 10.

00:25:14.240 Well, he was railing against the healthcare industry, which of course fits into the scenario

00:25:21.320 here.

00:25:22.100 Um, he talks about, uh, how these parasites had it coming.

00:25:26.640 Um, he starts off, uh, basically saying, uh, I don't want to cause any, um, trauma, uh,

00:25:34.300 but, um, but it had to be done.

00:25:38.180 Um, so a second page really kind of goes into problems with the health industry.

00:25:44.900 He raises the question, you know, why do we have the most expensive healthcare in the

00:25:48.820 world, but we're 42, um, rated 42 in life expectancy around the world.

00:25:54.560 It was talking about, uh, the healthcare industry and the need for violence.

00:25:59.820 I mean, especially when you talk about, um, you know, the opening, which is, um, that it

00:26:07.100 had to be done, these parasites, um, you know, had it coming.

00:26:14.060 Any thoughts on that?

00:26:15.700 It's, it's always a question, you know, are these people just simply crazy?

00:26:19.800 And, and again, if it's the, if it's the other guy that's committed this atrocity, we

00:26:25.780 are going to be inclined to blame the rhetoric, to blame the ideology.

00:26:30.880 If it's our guy, and again, let's be honest, it is, it is conceivable that some right-wing

00:26:36.780 kook, uh, you know, especially during the election could take the language that Biden

00:26:42.900 is a threat to democracy, that he is, uh, a fascist or a totalitarian, which there's

00:26:48.480 an argument in given their, uh, censorship of speech that that's a completely deserved

00:26:54.040 label, uh, and, and then acted totally unjustifiably upon that.

00:26:59.220 So, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, that's, that's that difficult link between when does

00:27:04.900 ideology lead to violence or is it a complete break?

00:27:11.140 It's irrelevant.

00:27:11.740 And what's really going on is you've got somebody here who's just psychologically, uh, deranged

00:27:16.780 and, and is psychotic and does not understand basic moral principles and has no human empathy.

00:27:23.600 I can tell you, you know, as far as the STEM background, because I was surprised by that

00:27:27.780 too, you know, you think engineering, uh, in my experience, scientists, and with all due

00:27:33.180 respect, and I, I revere, uh, scientists and for their, for their, what should be their,

00:27:39.440 their commitment to universal reason and the colorblind pursuit of knowledge, but they can

00:27:43.920 be very naive politically.

00:27:45.520 You know, I would say about half of them are actually in favor of totally destructive race

00:27:50.540 and gender preferences and scientific hiring and, and can be very naive about economic,

00:27:55.780 uh, matters.

00:27:57.320 You know, they're, they're pure redistributionists and anti-capitalist.

00:28:00.380 So anyway, that, that's not an inoculation against this, but it just may be that he's, he's

00:28:06.540 got, uh, as a disintegrating moral compass and, and cognitive capacities to be able to assess,

00:28:14.880 uh, actions.

00:28:16.260 In fact, I thought his getaway plans were kind of crazy.

00:28:19.180 I, I think he let himself wide open.

00:28:21.700 Other people I've seen on TV thought, oh, he's a very smart guy.

00:28:24.960 I don't know why he's still holding onto the gun.

00:28:27.240 I would have, I would have biked all the way to the East river and thrown it in.

00:28:31.800 Uh, I don't think they could possibly find it there.

00:28:34.160 So, so something else may be going on and, and maybe it's not fair to, to blame the left

00:28:43.020 wing, uh, anti-fa walls, you know, occupy wall street rhetoric against, uh, against the

00:28:50.720 so-called capitalist parasites.

00:28:52.780 But, but nevertheless, he's the right age.

00:28:55.580 He's the right age for a psychotic break.

00:28:57.280 We don't know.

00:28:58.900 He had all sorts of icons on, on his, uh, social media that suggested me, he might've been into

00:29:04.600 psychedelics.

00:29:05.300 That's not confirmed.

00:29:06.840 Um, they don't make you normally psychotic, but the, the God of psychedelics was on this

00:29:11.900 show telling us this Hopkins researcher saying, if you have any history of schizophrenia in

00:29:16.640 your family, you should not be doing these.

00:29:18.420 You should not be doing these.

00:29:19.760 They can, they can be helpful to people who are, um, who don't have that history and are

00:29:25.900 depressed and need to look at the world in a different way.

00:29:28.560 We've had those people on the show too, but they would rule out anybody who had that sort

00:29:34.060 of a history in their family because they can cause a psychotic break from which you cannot

00:29:38.160 return.

00:29:39.360 That's what's so nuts about it.

00:29:40.680 That's pure speculation on my part.

00:29:42.660 His back issues have been documented.

00:29:44.720 Now his friends are coming out, talking to CNN about how he had some massive back problem

00:29:48.380 that caused him a lot of pain, but no reports so far of any beef with an insurance company.

00:29:53.120 We will learn more.

00:29:54.620 And this guy's, I mean, it sounds like the cops have got him dead to rights, the manifesto

00:29:59.180 on him, the gun on him, the silencer on him, both of which they say appear to have been

00:30:03.580 the product of a 3d printer, which is nuts along with hollow point bullets, which he would

00:30:09.160 have to have had to have purchased, um, false IDs.

00:30:12.940 He confessed to holding a false ID into presenting it to the police saying he was a New Jersey resident

00:30:17.840 under a different name.

00:30:19.580 Uh, and now he's in custody and not talking.

00:30:22.020 And ultimately today charged so far with second degree murder in New York.

00:30:25.860 And I expect that will be increased to first degree.

00:30:28.800 Once they proceed down the line with this case, there, he is in his mugshot looking super tough.

00:30:33.780 It's not super tough to kill an unarmed man in the back.

00:30:37.580 Luigi at all.

00:30:38.960 Uh, okay.

00:30:40.020 Let's talk about Daniel Penny, who is a genuine hero, who I, unlike this guy, like they, they

00:30:47.100 want to say, oh, they're the same.

00:30:49.280 They're just being treated differently.

00:30:50.460 That's what the left is saying, because both were trying to act in defense of others.

00:30:55.800 That's what the Taylor Lorenz of the world see when they look at Penny and this guy, but

00:31:02.120 it's, it isn't.

00:31:03.120 So you could say that to justify the murder of just about anybody who had caused any harm

00:31:08.300 in their business life or professional life.

00:31:10.900 It, it doesn't make your murder of them justified.

00:31:14.380 Daniel Penny was actually trying to defend weaker people around him on the subway.

00:31:22.040 A fact, which is not being acknowledged by the BLM, NAACP, Al Sharpton types today, which

00:31:30.380 want to paint him like he's another Luigi.

00:31:34.260 Also, he was not intending to kill Jordan Neely.

00:31:37.800 That was not part of his plan at all.

00:31:41.660 He was simply trying to restrain him until first responders could arrive in the subway at

00:31:47.140 the next station.

00:31:47.980 And there was evidence presented that in fact, he was not putting particular amount of pressure

00:31:53.760 on, on Neely's chest and neck, uh, that it was just holding him down there because if

00:32:01.100 you let him go, every, the, one of the arguments is, well, once people got off the train, uh,

00:32:06.540 then, then he should have let him go.

00:32:08.180 You don't know what he's going to do if he's, if he's still crazy and you let him go, he could

00:32:11.900 go right back to assaulting people.

00:32:14.360 You don't know if he's armed, but there's simply no parallel.

00:32:17.980 Uh, this was somebody who was simply trying to get, uh, somebody out of the range of being

00:32:24.540 able to kill other people.

00:32:25.880 And the fear that he might kill other people is completely legitimate and rational.

00:32:31.760 We just went through on, on November 18th in this country, in this, in New York city,

00:32:36.320 uh, a mentally ill deranged vagrant, uh, who went on a stabbing spree across Manhattan and

00:32:44.020 killed three people, stabbing them to death.

00:32:47.180 We regularly have vagrants in the subway who slammed people's heads, uh, into the subways

00:32:54.040 10, 10 days after the, the Jordan Neely, Daniel Penny incident, uh, vagrants slammed a woman's

00:33:00.740 head into the subway.

00:33:02.020 She's now paralyzed for life.

00:33:03.860 You know, the, the argument made by the, uh, prosecution was that Penny was either reckless

00:33:10.420 or negligent in his disregarding the risk that by putting Penny in this so-called chokehold,

00:33:20.140 and there's a lot of, always a lot of semantic play around what constitutes a chokehold, what's

00:33:24.860 not, but he basically brought him down in a, in a bear hug, Penny lay on the, on the subway

00:33:31.220 floor with Neely on top of him, uh, that, that somehow Penny should have known.

00:33:38.700 And he was indifferent to the risk that by just holding this guy who was high on, on

00:33:44.400 synthetic marijuana, that that could have led to his death under that standard.

00:33:49.280 It is the city that is every single day homicidal because they know it is not just a possibility.

00:34:00.560 It is a certainty given the number, the thousands of untreated mentally ill drug addicts who are

00:34:08.700 roaming the streets.

00:34:10.060 It is a virtual certainty that every couple of days, every couple of weeks, one of them

00:34:15.580 will assault an innocent pedestrian, possibly lethally, and they are on notice.

00:34:21.680 It's, it's not, it's not a chance.

00:34:24.000 It is a certainty.

00:34:24.700 And the city and state do nothing.

00:34:27.880 They, they spend all their money on vanity left-wing projects, uh, you know, whether it's

00:34:34.660 protecting migrants from deportation or various trans projects or affordable housing for single

00:34:41.720 mothers who have made themselves poor by not marrying when they have children, uh, instead

00:34:47.940 of dropping everything and saying, our primary responsibility is to protect the public from

00:34:54.380 known obvious risks.

00:34:56.460 We are going to transfer all of the money that we're now wasting on feckless social service

00:35:02.320 providers who cater to the dysfunctional.

00:35:04.980 We're going to build however many mental institutions it takes to confine people who should not be

00:35:11.800 for their own sake left to decompose on the streets.

00:35:15.520 Talk about, uh, you know, we're all supposed to feel like Penny was indifferent to the human

00:35:22.320 dignity of Neely.

00:35:23.720 The people who are indifferent to Neely's human dignity are the outreach workers and who let

00:35:30.440 him go to sit in his own feces to, to expose himself on platforms, to go battering elderly

00:35:38.920 people and don't give a damn the, the homeless.

00:35:42.980 You are not helping the homeless, vagrant, mentally ill chemical abusers by letting them roam the

00:35:48.840 streets.

00:35:49.320 You are subjecting them to a life of squalor and, and, and sheer, uh, just abuse, self-abuse

00:35:58.220 and abuse of others.

00:36:00.220 And yet the reason we do this is because the homeless lobby needs the homeless on the streets

00:36:05.220 so that they can make their million dollar contracts.

00:36:07.700 And they want to have a symbol of the heartlessness of capitalism.

00:36:11.220 The whole thing is a perverse narrative and we haven't even gotten to the race issue.

00:36:17.080 Megan, I have frankly, as, as we will, let's hold, let's, let's put a pin in that.

00:36:21.880 Cause that's next, but let's stay where you are.

00:36:23.520 Um, I'll give you one example.

00:36:25.120 So this was community noted on X yesterday, a commentator named Tiffany Caban writes Jordan

00:36:30.760 nearly deserve better than the violence of being denied access to stable housing and healthcare,

00:36:35.340 and then to be dehumanized for it.

00:36:38.660 Jordan nearly deserve better than the systems that allow for and justify extrajudicial white

00:36:43.120 supremacist violence against black people.

00:36:46.000 The community note reads as follows as part of a plea agreement with prosecutors after he

00:36:50.800 punched a 67 year old woman in the, in the face in the street in 2021, Jordan nearly was

00:36:56.500 given free access to stable housing and healthcare at a treatment facility in the Bronx.

00:37:01.620 He abandoned the facility after 13 days.

00:37:05.000 So there there's a, she's a New York city council member that Tiffany Caban, um, they're just not

00:37:13.720 getting, they refuse to get it intentionally, willfully, uh, blind to the problems.

00:37:18.620 New Yorkers, New York taxpayers who are working every day, they're getting up early, they're

00:37:23.480 going to the job, they're putting up with possibly obnoxious coworkers or bosses, but because they

00:37:28.880 believe in making self-sufficiency, that they're not going to be leeches on the system.

00:37:34.240 They're really screwed because a judge, thanks to legal aid society lawsuit has held that we

00:37:40.460 are obligated to provide shelter to everyone on demand.

00:37:44.280 Okay.

00:37:44.880 So we'll just cut, cast aside whether that's just or not, let's take that as a given.

00:37:49.460 The rule should be, if we have to provide you shelter on demand, whether you're a single

00:37:54.380 mother that gets a subsidized private apartment with your own cooking and bathroom facilities,

00:38:00.820 or you're in a congregate shelter as a, as a childless adult, the rule should be, you got

00:38:06.860 to use it.

00:38:07.480 If we're going to be paying billions of dollars a year to provide this shelter, you don't

00:38:12.740 get to stay on the streets.

00:38:14.280 It's one or the other.

00:38:16.140 Uh, but in fact, they do get to stay on the streets.

00:38:18.900 They do not accept housing.

00:38:21.200 You know, we've lived with this lie for now, what is it?

00:38:24.200 40 years since the 1990s.

00:38:26.040 It was completely blown out of the water by some early sociologists.

00:38:29.860 The idea that housing, it's a, homelessness is a housing problem.

00:38:34.500 No, it's not.

00:38:35.160 It's a problem of mental illness, drug abuse, and what, what some early researchers called

00:38:40.500 disaffiliation.

00:38:41.460 That means you've broken your social ties.

00:38:44.040 Those social ties that may allow you to shack up with your mother or sister.

00:38:49.740 Uh, you're so obnoxious.

00:38:51.340 You're so involved in your own addictions that people say, I can't take you any longer.

00:38:56.940 Uh, so you don't have that, that social safety net, but, but nevertheless, so it's not about

00:39:03.080 housing.

00:39:03.520 These people are offered housing numerous times.

00:39:07.000 Homelessness, vagrancy.

00:39:08.540 I don't even like to use the phrase homelessness, but sometimes it just comes ready, ready to hand.

00:39:13.500 It's a lifestyle choice.

00:39:16.620 Uh, I, I've written on Skid Row in, in Los Angeles, which is the biggest hell on earth.

00:39:21.720 There's no, there's no Vista that you've ever seen like it unless you've actually seen Skid Row of

00:39:27.040 block after block of human degradation beyond belief.

00:39:31.800 Uh, but people come from across the country to be in Skid Row because they know they can party

00:39:40.040 without interference.

00:39:41.960 They run prostitution rings out of their cardboards.

00:39:44.760 This is a choice.

00:39:46.240 And if you allow certain people to make that choice, they will, whether they're capable of

00:39:50.900 making it or not.

00:39:52.500 But frankly, you do not get to colonize public space.

00:39:57.120 We used to understand this, you know, for centuries, people understood this.

00:40:01.900 We had Skid Row's, cheap, uh, cage housing, SRO, single room occupancy hotels, and the police

00:40:09.280 did something that now you're not allowed to talk about.

00:40:11.880 They moved people along.

00:40:14.120 If you say you don't get to stay here, people make other arrangements.

00:40:17.860 And now, now the government believes that its only duty is to the dysfunctional and the

00:40:24.360 antisocial.

00:40:25.660 It owes nothing to the law abiding, the hardworking, the tax paying.

00:40:30.480 They're simply supposed to put up with crime and squalor and feel lucky to be paying taxes

00:40:37.260 to support this massive, feckless, totally incompetent social service industry.

00:40:42.740 This, this is, this gets right to the befuddlement of many on the left and in the media as to

00:40:51.440 the reaction that you and I and other sane people are having to this verdict.

00:40:55.680 They don't understand why we're applauding Daniel Penny, because we've seen all the things

00:41:01.720 that you just described.

00:41:02.600 We object to this current system, which none of us voted for or okayed in any way.

00:41:08.080 We miss the old days of there being law and order and of the law abiding citizens being

00:41:12.960 the ones who are protected and at the front of mind for police.

00:41:17.440 And we're cheering a strong, brave man like Daniel Penny, who fills the gap to keep us safe.

00:41:25.400 But I'll just give you, just listen to this CNN anchor, Audie Cornish, who seems genuinely

00:41:30.880 confused about this reaction that some of us are having.

00:41:34.500 Here's thought six.

00:41:36.180 When I hear lawmakers hailing Penny as a hero, as a good Samaritan, really being promoted,

00:41:42.560 can you help me understand the thinking?

00:41:44.120 Just, we started at the top of the show talking about the killer of the United

00:41:47.820 healthcare CEO being hailed in similar terms.

00:41:51.260 Yeah, let me just help you understand.

00:41:53.480 If you're on the American left tonight, here's my chart.

00:41:56.440 The good guys today, Daniel Penny.

00:41:58.540 The bad guys, Luigi Mangione.

00:42:01.120 It seems to me, what's the chart for victims?

00:42:05.480 I'm just telling you what I see out in the world today.

00:42:07.360 I know, I know.

00:42:08.120 I just want you to finish the chart.

00:42:09.880 What's my chart?

00:42:11.940 You can make your own chart.

00:42:12.760 What I'm telling you is, people on the left, people on the left can't seem to tell the difference

00:42:20.540 between the good guys and the bad guys.

00:42:22.160 I'm not actually asking you about people on the left.

00:42:22.860 I'm asking you whether you consider this person.

00:42:25.540 We have people praising Luigi and attacking Penny.

00:42:26.960 I want to know whether you think that, as Congressman Crane does, that Daniel Penny

00:42:32.100 should get the Congressional Gold Medal to recognize his heroism.

00:42:35.680 I'm not asking you about anyone.

00:42:37.080 I think he ought to get medal.

00:42:38.060 I think he ought to build a statute of this guy.

00:42:41.820 Thoughts on that, Heather?

00:42:44.800 Fantastic.

00:42:45.500 I completely agree.

00:42:46.280 I mean, he represents something so archaic, which is male chivalry, selfless help of others

00:42:54.120 stepping in to protect the weak.

00:42:56.420 People were terrified on that subway car, again, for good reason.

00:43:00.000 It is perfectly rational.

00:43:02.040 You mentioned before, with regards to taking psychedelics, if you're psychotic, the category

00:43:08.600 of, it's called MICA's, M-I-C-A's, Mentally Ill Chemical Abusers, they are very violent.

00:43:16.000 When you cross being mentally ill, schizophrenic, and chemical abuse, that leads to very high

00:43:22.800 rates of violence.

00:43:23.700 So those people who were terrified when Jordan Neely burst into the subway, claiming he wanted

00:43:29.140 to die, he wanted to go back to jail, implicitly, I'm going to kill somebody to go back to jail,

00:43:34.660 they were completely based on reality.

00:43:39.140 What kills me the most, Megan, we have two types of hypocrisy.

00:43:43.200 We're bracketing for now the race hypocrisy, but it overlaps with all this maudlin, lacrimose,

00:43:52.320 well, why didn't people help Jordan Neely?

00:43:55.640 You know, at the start of this, the New York Times ran this hilarious feature about what

00:44:01.200 to do if you see somebody acting out on the subway.

00:44:04.860 And the first suggestion was, well, get the hell out of there, which is what most people

00:44:10.620 do.

00:44:11.080 But it also said, well, go up to that person and say, do you need something?

00:44:15.740 Is there anything I can do for you?

00:44:17.460 All of these people, Al Sharpton, all of the race baiters, and Audrey Cornish, and whoever

00:44:24.740 else it is, that are saying, well, why didn't Daniel Penny help him?

00:44:29.120 Jordan Neely was just, this was just a cry for help.

00:44:32.200 None of them.

00:44:33.080 I can guarantee you, Megan, and I'm happy to be proven wrong.

00:44:37.800 Somebody come up and prove to me that you on the left have gone up to a psychotic, raving,

00:44:44.560 drug-addicted vagrant and said, how can I help you?

00:44:48.620 None of them have done it.

00:44:50.300 Sharpton is going on saying he needed help.

00:44:52.680 I can guarantee you he has never done that, and especially you've never done it in a subway

00:44:56.960 car.

00:44:57.620 Maybe people have-

00:44:58.520 He's also saying he wasn't a threat.

00:44:59.880 He said at his, he went to the funeral of Jordan Neely and said, he posed no threat.

00:45:04.700 He's just such a hustler, non-fact based, who tries to gin up anger and riots and protests.

00:45:11.620 He tried again here without any care for the consequences that follow.

00:45:16.120 And that will bring us officially to the race discussion here, where the Sharptons and the

00:45:22.140 NAACP and this lunatic from BLM, Shavonna Newsome, who's the co-founder of the Greater New York

00:45:29.960 chapter, after the verdict, had this to say.

00:45:34.040 Listen.

00:45:34.280 There is no one coming to save black people, or else we wouldn't live in these ghettos.

00:45:39.100 We wouldn't be in these prisons.

00:45:41.000 And we, we will be further along than we are.

00:45:44.400 We wouldn't be at the absolute bottom.

00:45:46.680 So forgive me for being jaded and cynical.

00:45:49.040 But once we saw those non-white jurors, we knew that this case was over.

00:45:53.420 Nine of them.

00:45:54.020 The only crime that Jordan Neely was guilty of was the color of his skin.

00:45:58.420 Come on.

00:45:58.860 And shame on this jury.

00:46:01.420 Because to be real, they didn't even try.

00:46:03.780 These wonderful white people, I hope they celebrate their Christmas while the Neely family

00:46:08.560 is praying and asking God for comfort.

00:46:12.020 God damn them and God damn America.

00:46:16.040 Hypocrite.

00:46:16.920 She's a total hypocrite.

00:46:18.620 Ten days after the Jordan Neely-Penney incident, there was a 16-year-old girl named Claudia Quanti

00:46:25.180 who was sitting in an SUV at a Queens park.

00:46:28.160 Three guys came up, opened fire on her.

00:46:32.440 She was brain dead for, for several days.

00:46:36.020 She was, she was in a Queens hospital, brain dead during the Jordan Neely funeral, which

00:46:41.600 was another fake, totally fake outpouring of, of fake compassion.

00:46:49.200 Nobody mentioned Claudia Quanti.

00:46:51.060 There's been, every single month, there are black children who are gunned down by insane

00:46:58.900 black gang bangers.

00:47:00.260 None of them have ever been protested by Black Lives Matter activists, by this woman.

00:47:05.480 Never.

00:47:06.720 It is, again, this is going on.

00:47:08.940 Dozens of blacks are killed by other blacks every single day.

00:47:14.060 And there's never any protest about it.

00:47:16.700 The only time that a black victim gets any attention from the civil rights so-called activists

00:47:23.660 is when there's the remote possibility of a white person killing that black person.

00:47:33.400 And we're going to bracket whether this is even causal here with Penny and Neely.

00:47:37.780 The fact of the matter is, is that blacks are 35 times more likely to engage in violence

00:47:44.760 against whites than whites are against blacks.

00:47:47.420 If we wanted vigilantism, you know, there's a lot more cause for vigilantism on the white

00:47:53.080 side.

00:47:53.460 I'm not justifying it.

00:47:55.140 But the idea that white people are the source of danger to black lives is completely preposterous.

00:48:03.060 Blacks die of homicide between the ages of 10 and 24 at 25 times the rate of whites.

00:48:10.500 So in one sense, when President Barack Obama and President Joe Biden say that black people

00:48:16.300 should be right to fear that their kids will be shot when they step outside, that's right

00:48:22.960 in one sense because the black crime rate is so high.

00:48:27.400 But what they mean is their right to fear that white people will kill their black children.

00:48:31.860 That is a complete lie, but it is one that has not been rebutted.

00:48:37.120 It continues to create hatred, animosity in inner city neighborhoods and throughout academia.

00:48:44.500 And I am looking forward to a president in the White House that is not going to continue

00:48:50.200 this total, total fabrication and insult to the police officers of this country that they

00:48:58.920 are a threat to black people rather than their best chance, short of the reconstitution of

00:49:04.460 the black family, to lead safe, normal lives.

00:49:11.140 We have a minute to break, but I'll say this on the subject of good cops.

00:49:14.720 The two cops who arrested Luigi Mangione in that McDonald's in Altoona, Pennsylvania, two

00:49:23.600 hours outside of Pittsburgh, one, the one who confronted him was a rookie.

00:49:27.540 He'd been on the job as a police officer for this group, for this jurisdiction, six months

00:49:33.080 and went over there, managed to get him to take his mask down, managed to ask him the question

00:49:39.480 about whether he'd recently been in New York and managed to affect an arrest that easily

00:49:44.820 could have gone wrong, could have wound up in gun violence.

00:49:48.200 The guy was carrying a weapon with his silencer and his hollow point bullets and managed to

00:49:54.240 take this killer, suspected killer into custody with absolutely no problem.

00:50:00.020 I mean, an example in how it's done.

00:50:03.060 So, you know, while we're always on the subject of how terrible our cops are, maybe a word for

00:50:07.300 him, Al Sharpton, would love to, he's not interested because Luigi's not black.

00:50:11.060 All right, stand by.

00:50:12.260 We have more with Heather McDonald after this quick break.

00:50:14.940 Don't go away.

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00:51:48.420 I'm dying to talk to you about Trump's cabinet picks, including Pete Hegseth.

00:51:58.040 I heard your discussion with Ann Coulter, and I thought it was typically fascinating.

00:52:02.120 And I'll just get the audience caught up on where Pete's nomination stands right now, where

00:52:08.920 he's still facing some problems potentially with Murkowski, Collins, maybe McConnell, and

00:52:17.680 maybe Joni Ernst.

00:52:19.340 And the first three are not expected.

00:52:22.060 Joni Ernst is causing a lot of anger on the right because she's a Republican senator from

00:52:28.120 Iowa, which is a red state, and I think they expected better from her.

00:52:32.980 And for the past few days now, there has been trending on X, the hashtag Judas Joni, where

00:52:41.260 Republicans are expressing their outrage that she seems to be getting ready to, in their view,

00:52:45.900 betray them by holding up this nomination.

00:52:48.340 She had a second meeting with Pete on Monday and put out a statement that may or may not

00:52:53.940 be indicative of some softening.

00:52:58.140 I'm not sure if I believe it is.

00:52:59.920 Here's what she wrote.

00:53:01.700 I appreciate Pete Hegseth's responsiveness and respect for the process.

00:53:06.980 And that's anodyne.

00:53:08.340 Following our encouraging conversations, okay, Pete committed to completing a full audit of

00:53:12.940 the Pentagon and selecting a senior official who will uphold the rules and value of our service

00:53:18.340 men and women based on quality and standards, not quotas, and who will prioritize and strengthen

00:53:23.200 my work to prevent sexual assault within the ranks.

00:53:26.500 As I support Pete through this process, I look forward to a fair hearing based on truth,

00:53:34.320 not anonymous sources.

00:53:35.940 She later called it a very productive reading, a meeting, sorry.

00:53:40.980 And then she said, we're just moving through the process, but he does respect that I'm taking

00:53:45.480 the time.

00:53:48.100 I don't know what that means, Heather.

00:53:50.140 What I, what my understanding is, is she's no more committed to doing anything with Pete

00:53:55.160 besides getting him a hearing and listening to what is said in the hearing.

00:54:00.180 But I have to be honest, I don't really sense a bunch of softening in that statement.

00:54:04.680 And I too think Joni Ernst may still be a no and she could take this nomination.

00:54:10.180 What do you make of Pete Hegseth?

00:54:11.500 Well, my concern with Pete Hegseth is that he doesn't have the bureaucratic experience to

00:54:20.680 be able to manage the world's largest, most clotted, most overfunded, most bloated, self-involved

00:54:29.080 bureaucracy on the planet, which is the Pentagon.

00:54:31.600 I think that being a disruptor may not be enough in, in something like that, that you have to

00:54:39.340 have, uh, again, and I'm not, I'm not in that world, so I may be over, uh, romanticizing it,

00:54:46.320 but I would think that there's a certain degree of almost military skill of understanding, you

00:54:51.780 know, when you strike, when you pull back and, uh, the, otherwise the blob will, will consume

00:54:58.300 you.

00:54:59.020 That's my concern with Hegseth as far as, uh, the Ernst, Joni Ernst-Heggseth interaction.

00:55:06.020 What really depressed me, uh, was after their interaction, he had some comments about, well,

00:55:14.660 uh, you know, I'm so, so happy to work with a wonderful combat service woman, uh, and, you

00:55:21.040 know, we're all for our combat men and, and, and women in combat.

00:55:25.300 My strong support for Hegseth is based on one issue and one issue alone, his promise to

00:55:32.400 end females in combat units, which is a complete travesty.

00:55:36.020 It has nothing to do with military preparedness.

00:55:39.700 Uh, it is only about being able to credentialize females that's because you need to have combat

00:55:46.060 experience in order to be a four-star Pentagon general.

00:55:48.580 It has nothing to do with making us a stronger fighting force.

00:55:52.560 In fact, it is, it is a certainty that it will weaken it because when you introduce females

00:55:57.720 into combat units, you introduce Eros, which destroys combat cohesiveness.

00:56:03.540 It is inevitable that you were going to have jealousies.

00:56:06.360 You're going to have fistfights breaking out.

00:56:08.160 You're going to have pregnant females as we've seen in our submarines, which is also not at

00:56:13.420 all compatible with combat readiness.

00:56:16.160 Um, but I fear that in order to get these, uh, dissenters or, or fence sitters on board,

00:56:23.140 he's going to have to throw out that, that pledge.

00:56:26.840 Um, now, obviously the elephant in the room that I'm not addressing yet is the sexual assault

00:56:31.880 allegations.

00:56:33.060 And, and my position on that, Megan, is that I really don't care.

00:56:37.180 Short of an actual crime that's been committed and there are real sexual crimes and those

00:56:43.820 are, should be punished and they should be disqualifying.

00:56:46.940 If somebody is simply a sexual aggressor, a bore, I do not care.

00:56:52.460 I, I, I have a strict distinction between public virtues of leadership and private behavior of Eros.

00:57:01.380 Eros makes everybody crazy, but it has no bearing on whether can somebody can be a good public

00:57:07.680 leader, a leader of men able to engage in political persuasion, to make compromises where

00:57:14.260 necessary, to carry people along on a transformative mission, which is what has to happen with the

00:57:21.640 Pentagon.

00:57:23.140 And especially in this case where these are anonymous accusers, I'm even less, uh, willing to

00:57:29.620 credit that, but I, I would just, those who feel like there should be an absolutely porous

00:57:35.080 membrane between somebody's private sexual life and their public capacities, uh, just imagine

00:57:41.400 if James Madison, uh, had been a skirt chaser and let's say in a, under me too standards,

00:57:48.800 he was seen as being too aggressive towards subordinates.

00:57:53.380 This would be maybe in his household, uh, this would be maybe towards maids working in

00:57:57.660 his household that he was too handsy with them, a me too, a hater of males, a me too warrior

00:58:07.020 who believes in tearing down male civilization would say that because James Madison, uh, did

00:58:13.700 not always have his erotic impulses under complete check.

00:58:16.960 He therefore should have been thrown out of the constitutional convention and we never

00:58:21.600 would have had the most extraordinary document that grows out of centuries of development of

00:58:29.660 constitutional theory, which is uniquely a Western creation that the fact that James Madison

00:58:35.800 was maybe acted out, uh, improperly in his household should discredit him from public leadership.

00:58:42.860 I simply don't believe in that. So I'm going to judge Pete Hegseth on his public capacities.

00:58:49.620 And as I say, the, the concern I have there is whether he's got the, the clout, the knowledge,

00:58:55.880 the understanding to be able to reform the Pentagon.

00:58:59.640 He's certainly got the desire, which I think is the main goal of Trump selecting him, that

00:59:04.060 they're on the same page with respect to mission. But I, I listened to you and I listened to Ann and

00:59:10.140 Ann was much more in the old school Republican camp of character matters. He cheated on all three of

00:59:17.520 his wives. He reportedly cheated on the first wife some five times. That's unconfirmed. But Gabe

00:59:22.960 Sherman is reporting that the ex-wife says he told her that. Um, and so how can he sit atop

00:59:29.780 a military where we prosecute people for infidelity and in effect, pass judgment on these guys who still

00:59:38.760 do get court-martialed for doing things like that? Okay. Well, that's a different issue. I didn't

00:59:44.940 remember she made that point. If that's the case. No, I don't know if she made that last point. That

00:59:48.300 was me. But, but do, if we prosecute for infidelity, uh, then I would say that, that that's the choice

00:59:54.900 the Pentagon has made. I would say, uh, I'm, I'm all for fidelity. I'm all for marriage. I think the

01:00:02.280 disappearance of marriage is a very, it's, it's the most catastrophic thing of, uh, of modern culture.

01:00:07.920 Um, I don't know about prosecuting for infidelity, but if that's the case, then clearly he shouldn't

01:00:14.020 be, uh, nominated because he has violated the oath of office and the, and the conditions of,

01:00:20.320 of leadership. Short of that though, if that, if there wasn't that rule, I just think cheating on

01:00:25.600 your wife, it's very regrettable and it's extraordinarily painful within a domestic situation.

01:00:31.200 I've been through divorce. I can tell you it is traumatic and it leaves lifetime scars,

01:00:36.800 but I don't think that that has any bearing on whether somebody can be a leader of men. I can

01:00:43.800 well imagine that some of the greatest military heroes, some of the greatest public leaders,

01:00:49.920 whether it's Bonaparte when, you know, there's a division of opinion on him, Alexander the Great

01:00:54.320 people, but, but even people within America's own history, that they didn't control themselves

01:01:02.120 completely to normal standards when it comes to females, same with females onto men. I just don't

01:01:09.200 think that that's relevant for public leadership. I think there's character matters, but I think that

01:01:16.080 that's the character of public character. Are you magnanimous towards your enemies? Uh, are you willing to

01:01:23.120 extend an olive branch after conflict? I think the great reconciliation after the world war, after

01:01:30.520 civil war between Ulysses Grant and Robert Lee, that was an extraordinary moment that both men showed

01:01:39.000 magnanimity of spirit. That's one of my complaints about Trump is I don't think, I don't care about his

01:01:45.140 private behavior, but I don't particularly respect him for his public character. I think he's nasty.

01:01:51.500 I think he's vindictive. I think he should model male virtues in a way that Daniel Penny did,

01:01:58.520 which is chivalry, heroism, self-sacrifice. I don't see that in Trump. I see a narcissist in Trump.

01:02:06.000 Those are the values that I care about, especially today with males being viewed as pariahs, with being,

01:02:13.640 they are hated by the elite establishment, especially straight white males. They are viewed with contempt,

01:02:20.880 and, and the, basically an effort to replace them from every institution. I look for males who can

01:02:28.340 model what traditional male virtues are and be proud of them. Hmm. I do think Trump's a narcissist.

01:02:35.160 No big surprise. Most of the people who run for and become president are, but I, I can defend him on

01:02:40.940 that other front in that, you know, look at him now after the election, Joe Biden telling everybody that

01:02:46.620 he's Hitler, he's a Nazi, he's a white supremacist, fascist. He sat down with him and said, you know,

01:02:52.120 it's a tough election. A lot of tough things get said in these elections, but that's politics.

01:02:55.900 Same thing with Jill Biden over in, uh, Notre Dame cathedral this week, smiled at her, was nice to her,

01:03:02.300 um, sat down. I mean, Marco Rubio as secretary of state, those two did strong rhetorical battle back

01:03:08.840 in 16 yours truly. He didn't like me for a year, but we're great now. You know, he, I think he

01:03:15.960 actually is set to, he accepted a meeting with Joe and Mika from morning Joe. They came down to Mar-a-Lago

01:03:22.920 and he was kind to them. Like, I think Trump is capable of looking past strife and an adversarial

01:03:31.580 relationship just as long as the other person would like to do that too.

01:03:35.560 I hope you're right. I hope we've, I would say that's turning over a new leaf. I think that his

01:03:40.920 behavior towards Jeff Sessions was appalling. People defend Trump and say, yeah, but look at

01:03:45.840 what Jeff Sessions did. Jeff Sessions was acting on what he believed the constitutional principles was,

01:03:51.840 were, I, I'm not a fan of his, uh, nicknames. I think they're, they're juvenile. They're an embarrassment,

01:03:58.060 but that's the one area where I guess I'm a girl because most boys that I know, most males think

01:04:03.240 they're funny. I don't, but, and I, but I know there's many females that think they're funny too.

01:04:08.140 Which one? Who's, who was Rocketman?

01:04:10.460 For Kim Jong-un.

01:04:12.520 Oh, okay. That, that, that's okay. I guess you're allowed to maybe the enemy. You could,

01:04:17.180 like, they don't deserve any respect, but I think our, our political, uh, domestic

01:04:22.880 opponents, we should be a little bit more, uh, adult towards, but Rocketman was good,

01:04:28.020 but I'm rotten to sanctimonious, but, but anyway, let's just hope it's a new, it's a new, um,

01:04:33.300 it's a new era for Trump. I would also say, I think Joe Biden deserves credit too for, for his

01:04:39.160 behavior with Trump. Uh, you know, it's easy for Trump to extend the olive branch, but, but Biden was

01:04:44.840 the one, um, you know, who was pushed aside and, and, and so he, that was, that was a good moment for

01:04:51.560 our country. Yep. Yep. So how are you feeling now? I mean, we elected Trump, the Republicans are

01:04:58.320 going to control the Senate and the house. They don't have a filibuster proof majority. We've got

01:05:03.420 a six, three majority on the U S Supreme court. I don't know. How are you feeling Heather?

01:05:09.520 I'm optimistic for the ones for first time in my life. I actually found myself imagining what could

01:05:15.080 happen with 12 years of Republican rule that I think we could really get this country back on track.

01:05:20.760 So I just hope that Trump restrains himself so that JD Vance is a shoe in because I would love to see

01:05:27.780 a Vance presidency. Um, I think that the Trump is much wiser now. I think he started in on trying to

01:05:36.780 end the anti-white male hatred at the end of his administration. It was too late by then. Now,

01:05:43.500 some of his, his picks are just fantastic. Jay Bhattacharya, the head of NIH Bhattacharya,

01:05:50.180 of course, was one of the authors of the great Barrington declaration, which came out against

01:05:55.220 lockdowns, which came out against the arbitrary tyranny of the public health establishment with

01:06:00.720 these rules that were pulled out of thin air against school closures. We've seen the real problem

01:06:07.540 with the school closures. It's not only the learning loss, it is that it has widened the academic skills

01:06:12.740 gap between blacks and whites, which guarantees further racial strife in the future. Um, Bhattacharya

01:06:19.140 was the victim of, of censorship on the government's part. He is going to restore our science establishment

01:06:26.500 to meritocratic excellence. He will ream out the billions of dollars that are spent on promoting race

01:06:35.180 and sex in science rather than accomplishment. The immigration, uh, agenda. I think Trump is much more

01:06:43.020 hard hitting at this point. I love Tom Homan. So I think this could be an amazing thing. I'm totally,

01:06:48.780 uh, thrilled, enthralled by the Vivek Musk alliance. I just hope that they're not such big egos that they

01:06:56.300 end up going after each other. Ultimately, we'll have like some big cage fight, you know, but if they can

01:07:01.500 work together, if they can work together, how can this not be a good thing? So I'm usually a pessimist.

01:07:08.920 I I've lost four steak bed dinners on the Trump election. I thought he would, there was no way

01:07:13.260 he'd be reelected, but I, I think that the momentum is so great now. Uh, it's hard to see that at least

01:07:20.540 in the first hundred days, he's not going to take, accomplish a hell of a lot. Yeah. Tom Homan, uh,

01:07:28.080 apparently was speaking at an event in Chicago yesterday and began the remarks by saying

01:07:32.360 your, uh, mayor sucks and your governor sucks. Yes. Right. Right. Right. Speak for us all, sir.

01:07:40.220 Truce. Brandon Johnson. Oh, he's the worst. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. We will soon find out

01:07:46.940 whether Hegseth and these others get through, but the reports right now are that, that team MAGA has

01:07:52.400 effectively gotten it, that the Pete Hegseth nomination is it's about more than Pete, because

01:07:57.300 if they give on him, they wait to see what they do to Bobby Kennedy and a lot of the others getting

01:08:02.100 into their personal lives, making bad personal choices, the stakes for the nomination. It's like

01:08:06.720 now's the time to fight. And if we give on this one, we're, we're probably going to lose RFKJ among

01:08:13.120 others. Heather McDonald. I love talking to you. Please come back anytime. Thank you so much,

01:08:19.620 Megan. It's such an honor. Oh gosh. It's such a, such a privilege for me to be able to engage in

01:08:25.340 these conversations. Love her. Uh, okay. So before we take a break, I want to bring you a couple of

01:08:30.840 updates that we're getting now on the, on the, um, arrest of this Luigi Mangione and the latest in

01:08:37.180 this case, cause some stuff is happening. The, there are now death threats against the police

01:08:44.840 officers who arrested the guy. People have lost their minds. They're, they're threatening the lives

01:08:52.860 of the cops who arrested him because he's already seen as such a folk hero. I mean, I don't think this

01:09:00.560 guy thought this through because it was very clear he would eventually wind up arrested. I mean,

01:09:04.480 with this picture plastered all over the United States like that, what did he think was going to

01:09:09.000 happen? Of course they were going to get him in modern day America. And how did he see that going?

01:09:13.080 How does he think his, his back troubles are going to do any better in prison with the healthcare

01:09:18.680 there? Does he think he's going to be getting an interventional radiologist or interventional pain

01:09:23.280 management doctor, giving him ridiculopathy, uh, while he's locked up as a convicted felon,

01:09:29.780 probably in one of the worst, most maximum security prisons we have. I, I'm not sure it's

01:09:35.180 going to work out so well for Luigi. And by the way, I don't know if I even believe the whole

01:09:40.900 insurance thing, because I don't know that it was personal to him since it sounds like he comes from

01:09:44.900 a very rich family. And those are the families that can handle bad insurance news. It tends to be the

01:09:50.960 poor families who wind up paying the price if an insurer doesn't cover something. So I,

01:09:56.160 I don't know, to me, it seems more likely that this guy's in the psychotic break camp

01:10:01.000 either because of schizophrenia, which is right around now it's like 19 to mid twenties that it

01:10:06.260 kicks in even, even with people who seemed fine before, or maybe there was a psychedelic induced

01:10:12.940 break. You know, maybe he overused some medications. Maybe it was in connection with back pain. Then he

01:10:18.060 made that choice. Total speculation on my part of just thinking out loud here, but there's gotta be an

01:10:22.240 explanation for why he went postal. I mean, he, that's what happened here. And, um, we just need

01:10:30.100 to learn more about it. Now I will say that the, there was a former NYPD guy, former NYPD captain,

01:10:38.140 uh, named John Monahan. He was on CNN last night and he was suggesting that he did not believe Luigi,

01:10:45.200 if this is in fact is the, our guy Mangione was done that he actually thought he was probably on

01:10:53.800 his way back to New York and possibly to commit another crime. He was making the point that the

01:11:00.820 buses, you know, he took a Greyhound bus, the buses out of, uh, Penn station, which I think is where he

01:11:06.260 left, um, go to, uh, he said, New York, Philadelphia, and one other town and that to DC and that he

01:11:15.700 believes Luigi got on a bus to Philly and then headed back, uh, to Pittsburgh and Altoona. And that

01:11:26.600 he believed based on the route that the guy was traveling, New York was next that he was going to

01:11:32.600 go back there. And this may not have been the end of his crime spree, which would explain why he still

01:11:37.020 had the gun on him. I mean, yes, you could say it was for a confrontation with cops, but there's no

01:11:43.300 report that he lurched for his backpack, which I believe was right there in the McDonald's. Actually,

01:11:48.060 can we show the pictures that we've seen now of him in the McDonald's? Um, I mean, it does look just

01:11:55.500 like him, but his backpack was reportedly right by him, uh, in the McDonald's. Hello. Are we going to put

01:12:01.560 it up in the air? Uh, I guess we'll get to it. Um, there, there he is. I don't know what he's

01:12:08.520 sipping there, but he's sitting there with some, something in his right hand. It's a, it's a hash

01:12:13.380 brown. He's eating a hash brown with his mask off of his face and a big sort of burnt orange beanie on

01:12:19.740 his head. And, uh, anyway, reportedly his backpack was right there. His laptop was right there. So he

01:12:25.160 didn't lurch for it. He didn't try to have a shootout with cops. So you tell me why he held

01:12:31.800 onto the gun. Listen to John Monahan last night on Anderson Cooper, three 60 side 11.

01:12:37.480 What stands out to me is the fact that, you know, earlier they were asked that the Pennsylvania

01:12:44.080 leadership was asked, is he cooperating? And he said initially that he was, but then he stopped

01:12:49.700 and then we charged him. Anderson, that is the exact sequence of events that has to occur. If

01:12:54.700 you want to get information from this prisoner, that gun on all ballistics expert, Anderson, but I

01:13:00.120 don't, I doesn't look like something that was created by a 3d printer. He went to Philly. Then he

01:13:04.600 went to Pittsburgh. Now commissioner Miller asked a very good question. What was next? He started

01:13:09.900 Pittsburgh is well, West of Altoona. He's heading back to New York as he approaches Altoona,

01:13:15.420 Pennsylvania. I wonder how much ammunition was in that backpack. Let's think about what did not

01:13:20.700 happen in that McDonald's. He didn't have a chance to draw that weapon to commit suicide,

01:13:25.000 which he may have been prone to do. He never changed to draw that weapon to fight it out with

01:13:28.340 the cops. And he was still there. What kind of restaurant is that fast food restaurant? They

01:13:33.520 were there very quickly. How long is it? People sit in McDonald's, eat their breakfast, 10 minutes

01:13:37.620 tops. They got there right away. And we're getting more now on exactly how they got there. So

01:13:45.020 now, you know, you remember yesterday we talked about, was it an elderly patron who ID'd him or

01:13:50.180 was it an employee? And now what we understand, at least as of today, is that there was a guy who

01:13:56.840 was there with his buddy eating McDonald's and they saw him and they were saying, looks like the guy.

01:14:06.440 Hello. Looks like the guy from the shooting. And, uh, then a female employee agreed and called the

01:14:13.100 police. Well, one of those customers to whom I just referred, gave an interview to Fox and described

01:14:20.760 what went down that morning. Listen here. A group of us are here every day. And, uh, one of my friends,

01:14:28.800 and I thought he was kidding. Uh, when the, when the shooter, I'm assuming was the shooter who they

01:14:37.900 made the arrest on came in, he made a comment, well, that looks like the shooter from New York. But

01:14:46.460 I thought he was, I, the group of us, I thought it was more of a joke and we were kidding about it. But then

01:14:54.180 as it turned out, it was him. And like I said, the employee that thought it was him that I guess

01:15:04.060 started the initial like investigation on it. Uh, I, I talked to her later. I said,

01:15:13.280 I said, was I here when he came in? And she goes, yeah. And she goes, actually you and your,

01:15:20.900 your friends and all were, were making a joke almost like a saying, you know, and that's pretty

01:15:29.460 much about it. My friend, Mike had said this. He, I asked him again this morning. I said,

01:15:35.460 were you kidding or not? He said, no, I was serious. He goes, the backpack, the jacket

01:15:41.960 resembled the one he said the day of the shooting. There was no reaction like from him whenever my

01:15:49.960 friend said that. And, and the worker, if she heard us talking, he had to have heard us, but there was no,

01:15:57.760 no. Wow. Think of that. Just two regular guys sitting there having their McDonald's saying

01:16:06.320 that looks a lot like him. And it did. I mean, you see that picture. He's got that burnt orange

01:16:13.060 beanie. He's got, here's the other shot of him. He's got the sort of medical mask on the COVID mask

01:16:19.060 on again. And, you know, thanks to law enforcement in New York that went back and got pictures of him

01:16:25.560 at the youth hostel where he'd been staying. We did have that picture of him bare faced. Remember

01:16:30.600 he pulled on his mask for a minute to flirt with a girl. And we had the second picture of him in the

01:16:34.900 back of either a taxi or an Uber, totally bare faced where you could see his face. And it's a

01:16:40.780 pretty distinctive face very clearly. And they got that everywhere. So these customers and the employee

01:16:47.460 had two visions of the guy in their head with the mask and without. And apparently they saw both

01:16:53.260 while he sat there in McDonald's. Why didn't he, this guy who planned this elaborate crime,

01:16:58.500 why wouldn't he have changed the color of his hair, got gotten into a disguise, right? Like,

01:17:06.920 hello, you still look exactly like the picture that's everywhere of you. Of course, we're going

01:17:12.880 to notice you. And by the way, you're not even that far from New York. How is this a disguise?

01:17:16.960 Like the, I think the cover, the color of the beanie may be different. I'm not sure,

01:17:20.900 but I don't get why he wasn't dressed in like a woman's wig or shaving his head and walking around

01:17:30.620 with glasses and no mask. Like why wouldn't he have changed his look dramatically in order not to be

01:17:37.960 caught? I don't totally understand that. Um, on the subject of his alleged back pain and who he was,

01:17:46.420 there was an interesting exchange again on CNN with RJ Martin, who lived with Luigi Mangione

01:17:52.280 at some quote, co-living community in Hawaii. Apparently this is some community he joined

01:17:58.600 with a lot of gamers who were out there who were kind of living ragtag with one another.

01:18:03.740 It's not exactly what you think your kid's going to do after he graduates with a master's degree

01:18:08.320 from UPenn, but listen to RJ Martin in Sod 8. So when, um, I first interviewed him before he moved

01:18:16.260 in, I remember he said he had a back issue and he was hoping to get stronger in Hawaii. So he's always

01:18:21.140 focused on trying. Um, when he first came, he went on a surf lesson with other members. And

01:18:26.900 unfortunately just as basic surf lesson, he was in bed for about a week. Um, we had to get a

01:18:32.620 different bed from that was more firm and I know it was really traumatic and difficult.

01:18:36.820 Did he have any conversations with you then, or even afterwards about that issue? And I mean,

01:18:42.100 his back, how he heard it. I mean, obviously anything to do with the insurance process of it.

01:18:49.900 You know, I don't, the only thing he ever mentioned, um, you know, he mentioned, Oh,

01:18:53.640 I need to go back to see my doctor and then I'm going to have to have a degree. Um, I encouraged

01:18:58.480 him and brought him to yoga classes. He would do calisthenics on his own. Um, I know he was really

01:19:02.960 focused on being strong and healthy, but it also weighed on him that he knew that there was, um,

01:19:07.720 an impending surgery. Hmm. He went on, uh, to speak about whether he seemed embittered.

01:19:16.680 Listen to Sot 9. Did you have conversations about any of the issues that, you know, we now even see

01:19:23.200 in, in the writings that he had on him when he was arrested. I mean, did he talk about,

01:19:29.280 I mean, not even as maybe as specific as health insurance, but, but capitalism, um, anything of

01:19:34.960 that nature? Um, you know, I apologize. I haven't read any of the media that's, that's happened. Um,

01:19:43.460 I, I heard about it when a reporter called me. Um, so I'm not familiar with what his writings were,

01:19:48.340 but I know we talked about social issues and we talked about how to improve the world. And we talked

01:19:52.540 about, you know, issues that are, um, you know, say with capitalism or with the healthcare system

01:19:57.740 or with housing or the food systems, it wasn't, you know, anything specific. It wasn't like he had

01:20:02.760 an ax to grind or he was even upset or angry about a particular issue or they were just natural

01:20:08.020 intellectual conversations that you have when you're inquisitive. He also confirmed that Luigi did

01:20:15.360 have surgery and that Luigi sent him an X-ray of his back saying that, uh, he confirmed he had

01:20:22.280 surgery. He sent me the X-ray. It looked heinous with giant screws going into the spine. He said

01:20:28.780 that Luigi was not a violent person, never once talked about guns or violence, um, that he cannot

01:20:35.960 make sense of what has happened here. And others who knew him too, who are speaking out now said

01:20:41.780 similar things about him. A former college classmate told Fox news, very polite, driven engineering

01:20:49.080 student usually had a smile. Um, he was a little removed from the bar and party scene. He seemed

01:20:56.160 like someone who's more likely to start a nonprofit than, than to read manifestos. Uh, another former

01:21:02.820 college classmate told Fox news, I wanted to set him up with one of my best friends because he would

01:21:07.020 be a great boyfriend. Uh, um, someone named Aaron Cranston, former classmate of his at the Gilman

01:21:12.800 school, the high school in Baltimore said he was a smart and ambitious student. It was hard to

01:21:18.520 understand him being suspected in such a crime, but he did know that, um, he and other peers had

01:21:27.680 been forwarded a message earlier this year when men, Joni's family was trying to track him down.

01:21:33.840 This man Cranston said the message reported that the family members had not heard from Luigi for

01:21:39.440 several months following his back surgery and were looking for him. A person who had been in the same

01:21:47.440 fraternity with him at the university of Pennsylvania said he had heard that Mangione had

01:21:50.860 been out of contact with many people from campus for the last year. And the, he said the last time

01:21:57.420 he'd spoken to Mangione was in February of 23 when Mangione mentioned that he had suffered a spine

01:22:03.620 injury. So we're not totally sure of the chronology, but it does appear that this guy was withdrawing

01:22:10.540 from society bit by bit and that it may have related to the back. His family issued the following

01:22:16.000 statement. Our family shocked and devastated by Luigi's arrest. Um, we offer prayers to the family

01:22:21.660 of Brian Thompson and we ask people to pray for all involved. We don't know whether the family was

01:22:28.680 looking at those photos thinking, Oh my God, that's Luigi. We do know that they had no obligation to call

01:22:34.580 police and report him. That is not yet a thing in America. You do not have to call police and turn

01:22:40.360 in a relative. Um, now if you harbor him, that's a different story, but you don't have to say that

01:22:45.320 looks just like Luigi. You should look them up. So we don't know whether they recognized him from the

01:22:49.420 pictures that were everywhere, but man, what a story. I'll leave you with this FBI profiler, Dr. Mary Ellen

01:22:56.600 O'Toole who did help capture the Unabomber, uh, was speaking out on local news about Luigi and, you

01:23:06.040 know, what could possibly be behind this kind of act. And here's what she said. And early on to me,

01:23:13.100 it was, it was pretty clear that you had a person that had practiced, but wasn't experienced. Yes. He

01:23:19.680 wore a mask. Yes. He wore gloves. Yes. He got rid of his backpack. He did things to show that he thought

01:23:25.320 things through, but he had never been through it himself until last week when he shot and killed

01:23:31.580 the CEO. Cause I hear that come up a lot in different cases. This person really wanted to be

01:23:36.820 caught. And I really have not seen that. I see people that want to get credit for their criminal

01:23:43.860 behavior. I see people that want to be recognized for their ideology, uh, recognized for their beliefs

01:23:51.680 and their philosophies. If the manifesto and his ideation and his philosophies were really

01:23:56.780 important, he would want credit for those. But to say, I want to be arrested and, and, and go to

01:24:03.460 prison for most of my rest of my life or most of it. I don't see that. But the one question that I

01:24:09.160 would have is what precipitated your decision to take this to a criminal level? Um, I certainly would

01:24:17.060 allow him to explain to me what his thinking is and his manifesto. Cause I do think that that's

01:24:22.920 something that he'd want to talk about. And I do think he does not want it to be misunderstood.

01:24:28.460 Hmm. Right now he's not talking online. He praised Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber saying he's been

01:24:35.140 misunderstood. Uh, maybe he'll start talking, but usually the way this works is after you've been

01:24:41.320 officially charged, which he now has, as I said, second degree murder, it's going to have to go up to

01:24:46.040 first. Then you get a lawyer and your rights kick in and you don't have to talk. And, um, so far,

01:24:51.360 he's not talking. So we'll see. This case is going to rely on the physical evidence that they found on

01:24:56.100 him when they arrested him. In addition to a forensics comparison between the gun and the

01:25:01.380 bullets and what was found in the victim and at the crime scene. What a case. Uh, thank you. All

01:25:07.180 stand by. I'm going to bring on a guest next who you may know, uh, maybe not by his name, but as the

01:25:14.200 guy who baked the cakes out in Colorado, who then refused to bake a cake for a gay marriage,

01:25:21.080 whose case went all the way up to the U S Supreme court. And then a trans customer started harassing

01:25:28.980 poor Jack Phillips. And now that case has gone all the way up to the Colorado Supreme court.

01:25:35.640 And boy, Oh boy, has there been a result? He's here to tell us what it is in person. Next

01:25:41.760 four years of crushing interest rates, runaway inflation and reckless government spending.

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01:27:09.660 investments, advice. I'm Megan Kelly, host of The Megan Kelly Show on SiriusXM. It's your home for

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01:28:10.100 Religious Americans have been under attack by former President Barack Obama and then President

01:28:19.660 Joe Biden's far left policies for years. Don't believe me? The little sisters of the poor of

01:28:26.080 all people had to go all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court to get an exemption to Obamacare's

01:28:30.700 contraception mandate. Bunch of nuns. And that brings us to the case of Jack Phillips. He is the

01:28:37.240 incredibly talented cake artist from Colorado who declined to make a cake for a same-sex wedding

01:28:43.360 due to his sincerely held Christian beliefs. His case went all the way up to the U.S. Supreme Court

01:28:48.840 and the ordeal took a major emotional toll on Jack, his family, and his employees. Here's part of my

01:28:56.940 interview with him back in 2017. But it's been emotional for us as well. There were days where my

01:29:03.480 wife was afraid. Actually, afraid to come to the shock. We've had death threats, harassing phone

01:29:13.720 calls. I've been forced by the government to give up 40 percent of my business, half of my employees.

01:29:21.000 It's been emotional on our side as well. But the mainstream media won't tell you about Jack's pain.

01:29:28.400 He wound up winning his case in 2018, but that was not the end of the story. On the very same day the

01:29:35.140 U.S. Supreme Court agreed to hear that case, a transgender attorney requested that Jack make

01:29:41.580 him, it was a man posing as a woman, a pink cake with blue frosting to celebrate a, quote, gender

01:29:49.700 transition. Jack once again declined and that trans attorney took legal action against him. That case has

01:29:57.780 been in the courts for years. Thankfully, in October, the Colorado Supreme Court dismissed the

01:30:04.900 case, which is good for Jack. But they did it on procedural grounds. They didn't get into the

01:30:11.320 substance about whether there was an obligation to bake the cake or not. They just said that the case

01:30:16.920 had not been properly filed. Here with me to discuss whether the harassment of Jack Phillips

01:30:22.080 is finally over is the man himself, along with his attorney, Kristen Wagoner, who is the president

01:30:28.400 and general counsel of Alliance Defending Freedom. Welcome to you both. Great to see you both again.

01:30:34.200 Well, congratulations, Jack, because at least this chapter of harassment against you is over.

01:30:41.080 But how confident are we that the saga is over?

01:30:48.140 You never know what other people are going to do, but I know this case cannot be appealed by the

01:30:53.540 other side. And so it's completely finished. Were you thrilled when you finally got this ruling?

01:31:00.840 I was. It was a really good ruling. The court did exactly what we asked them to do. They dismissed the

01:31:06.960 case. And yeah, after 12 years, 12 years plus, it's over and I can go back to my baking and

01:31:14.400 and the things that I love this business for. So the shop's still open.

01:31:19.580 The shop is still open, though it's a lot different than it was before all this started.

01:31:25.180 First, I just want to make sure that it's clear that we serve everybody, including the person who

01:31:29.400 sued us this time in the state of Colorado, representing the two men who sued us before. We serve

01:31:34.280 everybody, but we just can't create every cake and every message with our our express every message

01:31:40.240 with our custom cakes. Exactly. If they want to come in and have a random cake or get a coffee or

01:31:45.780 whatever, they can do all that. It's that you you didn't want to be compelled to celebrate gay

01:31:49.560 marriage or pretend that men can become women through a cake. Here's my question for you,

01:31:55.260 Kristen. I'm worried because they didn't decide it on the substance, the Colorado Supreme Court,

01:32:00.900 and they should have. To me, this is a no brainer. There should have at least been been dictum in

01:32:05.060 there saying, OK, they screwed up procedurally, so we're going to throw it out. But by the way,

01:32:10.240 since this case was started, 303 Creative was decided by the U.S. Supreme Court.

01:32:15.980 And that case made very clear that a state's civil rights laws cannot force a business like Jack's

01:32:23.180 to engage in compelled speech, even if the state lawmakers think the compelled speech is really,

01:32:30.460 really good and really, really moral. You're absolutely right. And essentially what the

01:32:36.380 Colorado court did, which is about as far left of a court as you can find, is they tried to

01:32:40.960 not follow the 303 Creative decision because it protects Jack and and kick the case on procedural

01:32:46.180 grounds. But in terms of what happens next, Jack is going to continue to speak freely.

01:32:51.380 And I think what's important is to realize his case started in 2012. He's been on this

01:32:57.080 journey for 12 years now, and he was one of the first where government was trying to weaponize

01:33:03.240 the law to silence, censor and punish people because they disagreed with the government's

01:33:08.460 view. And because of Jack's stand, it didn't just lead to one decision that protected religious

01:33:13.720 freedom. It led to the 303 Creative decision that protects his speech as well as all of our speech.

01:33:19.460 He's a warrior and he's been put through hell for two cakes. He's been put through hell over two

01:33:28.380 cakes because he's become their favorite target. They're trying to bully you, Jack. Can you just

01:33:35.160 tell us, can you give us a little bit about your childhood? Like what made you strong enough to

01:33:41.460 stand up to people trying to bully you into saying, no, you know, I'll just get past my beliefs because

01:33:47.400 I don't want this aggravation. But I know that my background was art was with art. I love to draw

01:33:55.520 and paint and sketch and sculpt and all those things growing up. And when I got to a job in a bakery and

01:34:01.040 I found out there was cake decorating, then I knew that I could use that my skills and talents and

01:34:06.320 experience to use the cakes as a canvas to help people express their messages and special events

01:34:13.320 and special occasions. As far as being able to stand up to all this for the last 12 years,

01:34:19.760 Alliance Defending Freedom has been there right from the start to help us out. But one of the

01:34:26.060 commissioners compared my decision, compared religious freedom, said it was a, quote, despicable

01:34:32.200 piece of rhetoric. And it's been used for all kinds of things like slavery and the Holocaust.

01:34:36.740 And my father fought in World War II. He fought, he landed in Normandy, he fought across France and

01:34:45.320 Germany and Belgium. And he ended up being part of a group that liberated Buchenwald concentration camp.

01:34:51.540 And for her to compare a decision to stand by my principles and not create a cake, expressing a

01:34:57.040 message that went so far against him to the Holocaust of Hitler was just ludicrous. So that kind of

01:35:04.700 part of the destruction of your life and your business and your character. I mean, it does take

01:35:09.640 a very strong man to go through what you've been through, even with a group as great as Alliance

01:35:14.360 Defending Freedom, Standing by Your Side. It takes a lot of temerity. I salute you again for fighting for

01:35:21.220 all of us because 303 Creative was huge, Kristen. I do think it's important that when the lower courts in

01:35:30.280 Colorado were ruling against Jack on this trans case, it had not yet been decided. They were

01:35:36.540 ruling against him substantively, like on the merits, but they had not yet been, you know,

01:35:43.180 they're bound by that Supreme Court precedent, 303 Creative, which says you can't force compelled

01:35:46.920 speech on a business. Then it came down and then the Colorado Supreme Court got the case,

01:35:52.860 but they didn't deal with it. They just said, we're balancing, we're throwing out,

01:35:55.980 we're going to rule for Jack because the other side screwed up procedurally. So we haven't yet

01:35:59.880 had the case that tries to test the trans thing in the wake of 303 Creative. And the reason it's

01:36:07.800 really important is because Gorsuch wrote the majority opinion in 303 Creative, but he was critical

01:36:14.080 to Bostock, which is the reason it's illegal to make any hiring decisions or firing decisions

01:36:23.500 that factor in somebody's trans status. So we're going to get a case, are we not? That's going to

01:36:29.240 go up like maybe Jack's situation, or I think it could happen in the, in the case of a company that

01:36:36.400 demands somebody say the quote preferred pronouns, right? Because that's what the state human rights

01:36:42.720 law requires. And the person says, I'm not doing that in my religion, like mine. We don't believe

01:36:47.640 that God makes mistakes on people and that there are only two sexes, male and female, and I'm going to

01:36:51.720 pretend that you can change. And that's exactly the kind of case where you could file it and you

01:36:55.960 could say, I refuse. That's compelled speech. I'm not going to say it. And you tell me at some point,

01:37:00.560 the Supreme court is going to have to deal with what 303 Creative means in that context.

01:37:07.160 Megan, I would say, I'm not sure that the case will go up, that it has to go up because I do feel

01:37:11.600 like in some respects, we've turned the tide on the gender identity issue. That's not to say that it

01:37:15.820 won't, but I guess I would put it this way in Gorsuch's opinion in 303 Creative, he made it very clear

01:37:21.400 and explicitly said that you can't use these types of laws to violate people's constitutional rights

01:37:26.680 and that you do have the right to be able to speak freely at Alliance Defending Freedom. We have had

01:37:31.540 the privilege of representing a number of teachers and counselors who have fought for their right to

01:37:36.860 speak freely and not use the wrong pronouns. And they've won. I believe that the majority of the

01:37:42.080 Supreme court will continue to protect the right of free speech in this area. But I also think it's

01:37:48.060 critical to remember that doesn't mean the battles won't be fought in the lower courts and that

01:37:53.160 perhaps they will have to take a case in the end because courts have ruled incorrectly. I think

01:37:58.240 right now of the global censorship that we're seeing around the world and how it's playing out in the

01:38:04.340 digital sphere, and it is gender identity that's the Trojan horse to this. But again, I would just say

01:38:10.520 as we stand up, Jack provides an example for every average normal American that's just trying to go

01:38:17.720 about their business to say, when my rights are violated, I can stand and I can make a difference

01:38:23.860 and I can change the laws of a nation in doing so.

01:38:28.300 You gave me a chill there. Yes, that's exactly right, Jack. So you mentioned it in passing that things have

01:38:34.820 changed. I mean, there has been a cost to you. And we saw it in that NBC clip that, you know, you got

01:38:40.180 emotional. It's not been easy, even though you have Kristen's help. It's been quite a journey.

01:38:45.460 Yeah, it has been quite a journey. Back when this started, we had a fantastic wedding business,

01:38:53.180 a great reputation across the city. We had achieved awards from a national wedding magazine,

01:39:00.080 a lot of employees, a lot of customers. It was just a lot of fun, a lot of energy going on,

01:39:05.360 and just creating cakes to help these people celebrate all these special occasions. And now

01:39:10.360 the government took all that away at the beginning. And so we're still trying to figure

01:39:16.480 out what we're going to do now that the Supreme Court of Colorado has dismissed this case, how we

01:39:21.060 go forward. What's the name of the cake shop? Masterpiece Cake Shop. And is it, do you ship cakes?

01:39:31.280 No, we don't ship cakes, but we do have a site where we can ship brownies and cookies.

01:39:35.480 And the brownies are better, Megan. I'm just telling you, if you buy a dozen brownies,

01:39:40.520 you'll eat them all. Well, I have a feeling that a lot of my audience has just decided to send

01:39:45.980 their friends and family some Masterpiece Cake Shop brownies and cookies this Christmas season

01:39:52.600 as a way of supporting you and making sure you stay on your feet, Jack.

01:39:56.480 Well, thank you so much.

01:39:57.660 I'm just thrilled about all of this. So, all right, last bit. We just had a case go up,

01:40:04.860 Kristen, where we were arguing about this issue yet again, and whether children have a right

01:40:15.200 to medications that sterilize them and deprive them of sexual function and enjoyment for the rest of

01:40:21.880 their lives when their parents go in and say to a doctor they're trans. I think that's going to go

01:40:29.540 our way, too. I think the Supreme Court's going to rule there is no such right, and the bans on those

01:40:35.900 procedures and medicines in some 22 states will be upheld. But what do you think? You're a lot closer

01:40:41.660 to that one, too.

01:40:43.300 I'm optimistic. I think that the science is clear. You saw the Department of Justice in the Supreme Court

01:40:48.340 argument walk back their claims that science supports this. We know it's experimental on

01:40:53.800 children, and that it's bringing great harm, irreversible harm. But I do think it's important

01:40:58.880 that we continue this fight because, one, they won't give up even if there's a win here at the

01:41:03.660 Supreme Court, and two, there are real victims that are resulting from this. So I would just encourage

01:41:10.000 people need to understand what's at stake, and on gender ideology, refuse to speak things that are not

01:41:16.660 true. Biological reality matters, and we need to insist on it.

01:41:21.740 All right. Quickly, in the time we have left, is there any chance a federal ban

01:41:25.440 on these medicines, so-called medicines, for children could be upheld?

01:41:32.740 Well, I'm not going to speculate on whether it can be upheld. I think it will determine what the

01:41:36.900 Congress hinges the right with which they have to act on it. But there is every chance, again,

01:41:42.380 that states especially have the right to be able to regulate the practice of medicine. And you can't

01:41:49.080 use dangerous drugs that are illegal on children, and we're optimistic that it will be upheld. 26

01:41:55.240 states now have these laws. We just need more states to follow suit.

01:41:59.540 Yes, and to see reason, as they have in Scandinavia and the UK and elsewhere.

01:42:05.260 Kristen, thank you. Jack, Merry Christmas. All the best to you both.

01:42:09.800 Same to you, Megan. Thanks for having us.

01:42:11.700 Merry Christmas.

01:42:12.500 Wow. Great. Great. All right. We'll bring you the latest on all the news tomorrow. Thanks for listening.

01:42:18.040 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - December 10, 2024

Unhinged Leftists Celebrate CEO Murderer and Smear Daniel Penny, and Gay Wedding Cake Update, with Heather Mac Donald, Kristen Waggoner, and Jack Phillips ｜ Ep. 961

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