The Megyn Kelly Show - VP JD Vance on Deportations, Greenland, and Don Lemon, PLUS Latest on Savannah Guthrie's Mom's Abduction, with Ashleigh Banfield and James Fitzgerald Ep. 1245

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00:00:45.640 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:57.420 Hey, everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:58.960 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:01:00.480 We are in Washington, D.C. today.

00:01:03.180 And we are officially in the old executive office building, which houses a bunch of different offices related to the presidency, including this office that we're in right now, which is the vice president's ceremonial office.

00:01:15.840 It's very fancy.

00:01:17.000 It's ornate.

00:01:17.840 And it's lovely.

00:01:18.840 And we are sitting down with the vice president himself today.

00:01:23.720 We just wrapped the interview.

00:01:24.960 It's fascinating.

00:01:26.040 He's in rare form.

00:01:27.180 He's funny.

00:01:28.100 He's in depth.

00:01:29.780 He's interesting.

00:01:30.780 And we cover everything from Iran to affordability to immigration and what's real to Don Lemon.

00:01:38.980 So I had to subject the poor man to that.

00:01:42.020 It's sort of a coming home for the two of us in a way in that it was nine years ago that I went out to Ohio and interviewed back then just a regular old J.D. Vance, who didn't have the title senator, wasn't even running for Senate, never mind vice president.

00:01:55.560 And he had just left a stint with Peter Thiel out in San Francisco, which was not for J.D., he told me at the time, Sam Fram.

00:02:03.640 He and Usha were newly married.

00:02:04.900 They were expecting their first baby, living in a small little apartment.

00:02:09.800 And look at him now.

00:02:11.200 What a change in his life in just those nine years.

00:02:14.320 We talk about that, too.

00:02:15.640 I think you're going to enjoy this exchange.

00:02:18.060 Without further ado, Vice President J.D. Vance.

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00:03:22.260 Mr. Vice President, thank you so much for being here.

00:03:24.120 Of course, good to see you.

00:03:24.820 Thanks for having us here.

00:03:25.700 Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

00:03:26.720 This is my ceremonial office, which I use mostly for interviews, but it's actually the most, I think, the most beautiful office in the complex,

00:03:35.260 which is, it's sad that I never use it, but I'm glad I got to show it to you.

00:03:37.940 You're a long way from the holler.

00:03:39.660 I'm a long way from the holler, that's right.

00:03:41.460 How's it feeling? How are you enjoying it?

00:03:43.080 It feels good. I mean, look, it's the coolest job in Washington because I always joke with the president that I get to be involved in everything,

00:03:50.520 but he's the one who actually has to make the decisions.

00:03:52.780 And so I get, like, all of the benefit, but not nearly the same level of pressure as the president.

00:03:58.380 So we're really enjoying it.

00:04:00.060 The kids are doing well, family's doing well, and just the job.

00:04:03.140 I mean, there are very few things you ever get to do in your professional life where you feel like you have such a big impact.

00:04:08.240 And we're trying to use it as wisely and as well as we can.

00:04:11.680 It happened so quickly for you.

00:04:13.220 Yes, it did.

00:04:13.780 You know, it felt like overnight, and your life has changed so dramatically.

00:04:18.060 I have a lot of substantive questions for you, but let me just start with, this is the thing I really wanted to know.

00:04:22.940 What's the most absurd thing about Washington?

00:04:25.940 Oh, that's a very tough, tough thing to answer.

00:04:27.940 So many to choose from.

00:04:29.200 I mean, the thing that's absurd, just from our personal perspective, is that whenever I go anywhere, I'm surrounded by a motorcade of, like, 20, 30, 40 cars, right?

00:04:39.560 And so just, you get, like, this amazing mixture of people, like, tourists from Kansas or Ohio, who are so sweet and nice as you're driving through Washington, D.C.

00:04:50.280 And then you get, like, the really angry, kind of crazy radical who's running after your car, flipping you off.

00:04:56.000 And just, like, the performative politics of Washington and a lot of the people who live in Washington is very weird to me.

00:05:03.940 I think it's a town of people where it's like everything is kind of transactional, but people try to pretend that it's not.

00:05:12.080 And I think that really warps things.

00:05:14.040 And then just not from our perspective, not from the perspective of the administration or from us personally, but if you think about Washington, it's a place that almost nobody is from, right?

00:05:23.660 So there's, like, you know, historically middle class black population.

00:05:27.580 It's small and it's getting smaller because most of them are sort of selling their houses now that they're inflated and moving out to the burbs, right?

00:05:35.200 So what you have is most of the residents here are not actually from here.

00:05:39.780 And I think it just has, like, a psychologically warping effect.

00:05:42.360 So you go to a Nationals game and everybody's rooting for the Nationals, but they don't actually care if the Nationals win.

00:05:48.380 Whereas if you go to a Reds game, every person there is going to sob at the end of the game if they don't win.

00:05:54.060 It's just a weird, it's like a placeless place.

00:05:57.420 And I think that's the most bizarre part of Washington.

00:05:59.320 I can't picture you in it.

00:06:00.520 I mean, obviously I can.

00:06:01.560 I can see you in it.

00:06:02.720 But I can't picture you because there's so much insincerity.

00:06:04.780 I mean, I lived here for three years and everyone takes themselves so seriously.

00:06:08.340 Oh, absolutely.

00:06:09.060 Oh, the egos.

00:06:09.880 That must be so hard to bond with.

00:06:13.300 Well, it's definitely true that you have people who are sort of super huge egos.

00:06:17.700 So a friend of mine, he's actually like a think tank intellectual.

00:06:20.160 He told me once about the United States Senate when I was thinking about running for the Senate.

00:06:23.600 He said the thing you have to realize about the United States Senate is that it's 100 people who wake up every morning, look in the mirror, and think to themselves they're going to be the president of the United States.

00:06:32.120 And that is absolutely true, right?

00:06:35.020 But enough about Ted Cruz.

00:06:37.060 We have plenty of time for him later.

00:06:38.920 It is a place of very intense egos.

00:06:41.640 But the problem is people take themselves too seriously, right?

00:06:45.040 So nobody in Washington can really make fun of themselves.

00:06:47.740 Nobody can tell a joke at their own expense.

00:06:50.760 It's just, it is an odd place.

00:06:53.020 It's one of the reasons why I think they have a love-hate relationship with your boss.

00:06:57.320 Yes.

00:06:57.820 Because they can't stand him because they don't like his politics.

00:07:00.680 Correct.

00:07:01.000 But I think at some level, even the press corps is so relieved to have somebody who will crack a joke every once in a while.

00:07:06.200 Yes.

00:07:06.500 Who will say, we have to cut this cabinet meeting short because it was boring the last time.

00:07:09.800 Which, thank God for that.

00:07:12.860 No, I mean, the president, he is just, if Washington is an insincere place, I think you said that and said it well, he is like the polar opposite.

00:07:23.300 He just says what's on his mind.

00:07:25.420 He doesn't care how anybody's going to react to it.

00:07:28.100 What you see is what you get.

00:07:29.380 And people always ask, well, what is he like in private?

00:07:31.240 He is in private exactly like he is when he's in front of a camera.

00:07:34.900 And I think that that, you're right, it kind of, there are some members of the press who kind of like him for it.

00:07:39.000 Then some members of the press who don't.

00:07:41.080 And then I think for most members of the press, it's a little bit of both, right?

00:07:43.660 Like they admire the game, even if for some political reason they can't, they just can't admit that they actually like him.

00:07:50.300 But most of them actually do.

00:07:51.640 They hate themselves for laughing.

00:07:52.540 Exactly.

00:07:53.160 Exactly.

00:07:54.420 I mean, like there was a moment in the Oval Office, I wasn't even in there, but, you know, I was in the West Wing and somebody sent me where he was talking to Caitlin Collins, who's the CNN anchor.

00:08:03.860 And I have like a decent relationship with Caitlin Collins, which is unusual given that she's from CNN.

00:08:07.880 But the president, she's asking a question.

00:08:10.980 The president says, why don't you ever smile?

00:08:12.780 Yeah.

00:08:13.160 And it's actually like so perceptive, even if you're asking a tough question, even if you take your job very seriously, like why does it always have to be so antagonistic?

00:08:22.660 Well, I laugh because I saw online everybody was calling him sexist for saying that.

00:08:25.580 And I literally said the same thing about Caitlin Collins a year ago on my show.

00:08:28.720 She never smiles.

00:08:30.480 Every once in a while you have to smile.

00:08:32.360 Roger Ailes used to tell us that.

00:08:33.660 Absolutely.

00:08:33.800 Every once in a while you can remember, smile, show the viewers they have a heart.

00:08:36.000 Have some fun.

00:08:37.000 Yeah.

00:08:37.200 Right.

00:08:37.460 Like life, you can't always take yourself too seriously.

00:08:40.200 You're going to have a heart attack.

00:08:41.460 And that's too much of the Washington press corps.

00:08:44.060 And of course, they don't act like that when the other guys are in power.

00:08:46.800 So it is there is a political bias angle to it.

00:08:49.760 But I just I think that the press would have a much higher like the media is one of the least trusted institutions in the United States of America.

00:08:58.980 More people would trust them.

00:09:00.620 More people would like them if they actually express the range of emotions.

00:09:04.660 Like I'm not saying you have to agree with everything that me or President Trump do.

00:09:08.280 But nobody is angry all the time.

00:09:10.640 And when you come across as angry all the time, it's just fake.

00:09:13.840 And also fake, confused or befuddled about, for example, the lowest crime rate in 125 years.

00:09:22.680 Absolutely.

00:09:23.340 The New York Times.

00:09:24.020 We may never know.

00:09:24.840 Yes.

00:09:25.180 How it happened.

00:09:26.100 Yeah.

00:09:26.480 Well, OK.

00:09:27.100 So just on this one lowest crime rate in 120 years, a massive drop in murders.

00:09:34.780 That is human beings who are fellow citizens, in some cases our family and friends, who are walking around America's cities who, but for the pro-law and order policies of the Trump administration, would literally not be with us.

00:09:47.840 Like that's one of those things where when you measure it in human lives, you realize how powerful and important this is.

00:09:54.000 There are many, many dozens of people in most of America's major cities who are walking around right now, who get to go home to their kids, who get to play with their dog because we have actually brought some common sense back to our crime policies.

00:10:07.100 But just going back to the media.

00:10:08.880 OK.

00:10:09.540 So I remember this question I got from a New York Times reporter.

00:10:13.340 I was doing one of these long-form interviews.

00:10:14.860 And she asked me, you know, she said, well, you know, sometimes you give these speeches and you're like happy-go-lucky and, you know, you play around with your kids and you're obviously very happy when you're doing that.

00:10:25.660 And but sometimes you're like really annoyed or really angry.

00:10:28.600 Like, what is the real JD?

00:10:30.340 And I remember thinking to myself, what human being isn't sometimes pissed off at what's going on in the country but also can laugh about it?

00:10:38.460 What human being doesn't enjoy playing with their kids but maybe gets annoyed when they're dealing with some bullshit at work?

00:10:43.940 Like, the idea that you have to be, like, one-dimensional is, I think, one of the reasons why the media is so broken.

00:10:50.720 And it's one of the reasons why they can't tell the true stories that are out there.

00:10:54.040 I mean, you talked to us about the crime.

00:10:55.300 OK.

00:10:55.620 Why is the crime rate so low?

00:10:57.580 There are a lot of reasons.

00:10:58.560 One is that we've empowered local law enforcement.

00:11:00.780 Another reason is because we've deported a lot of criminals in the United States that should have never been here in the first place because they were illegal aliens.

00:11:07.940 So the media cannot even express an ounce of nuance.

00:11:12.820 It's never, oh, well, maybe this, we disagree with this.

00:11:16.160 Let's have a conversation about that.

00:11:18.260 But, like, let's tell the truth about the fact that there are Americans who are alive today because of Donald Trump's crime and immigration policies.

00:11:25.960 They can't do that.

00:11:26.840 It's always just shouting angry all the time, you're Gestapo, you're the fascist.

00:11:31.360 And it's just crazy.

00:11:33.520 And it does the American people a real disservice.

00:11:35.360 It's frankly why, you know, you probably have, I don't know, five times as many viewers, a hundred times as many viewers as the average CNN show because people are fed up with the bullshit.

00:11:44.000 Yeah.

00:11:44.120 Sorry, I'm not sure if I'm supposed to say that.

00:11:45.620 You're allowed to.

00:11:46.180 You know.

00:11:46.520 Yeah.

00:11:46.760 No, our YouTube feed on a monthly basis beats all of CNN.

00:11:49.220 I cuss too much.

00:11:49.920 Just our show.

00:11:50.500 A hundred percent.

00:11:51.320 That doesn't surprise me at all.

00:11:52.440 And we know why.

00:11:53.060 Yes.

00:11:53.720 Let's talk about the illegal immigration.

00:11:55.340 Sure.

00:11:55.460 So, this year we've had 2.2 million self-deportations and about 675,000 actual deportations.

00:12:01.620 Yep.

00:12:02.080 Under the Trump Vance administration.

00:12:04.060 That's about, let's call it 3 million.

00:12:06.900 The self-deportations, we're assuming we're going to have more on the front end than the back end.

00:12:10.940 Sure.

00:12:11.040 Because the people who are willing to take the deal are going to take it now and go.

00:12:14.240 So, unfortunately, it could be that that number could go down.

00:12:16.660 And people who really want those 10 to 12, could be as many as 20 million illegals who are here, most of whom came under Joe Biden, they want them all gone.

00:12:27.260 But at this pace, it's not going to happen.

00:12:29.220 So, to those people who think this is going too slowly, what do you say?

00:12:33.860 Well, I say a few things.

00:12:34.760 First of all, there are ways in which it will accelerate.

00:12:37.300 You're right.

00:12:37.600 There may be some front end self-deportations that you can't replicate in years two and three.

00:12:41.920 There also may be some people who wanted to do it in year one but couldn't get in the line.

00:12:45.960 I mean, self-deporting two and a half million people, that's a lot, just bureaucratically.

00:12:50.780 So, I think those numbers will continue.

00:12:52.980 They may taper off a little bit.

00:12:54.660 Number two, all of the immigration enforcement officers that we hired because Biden gutted immigration enforcement, most of them are in training right now.

00:13:02.440 Most of them have not even hit the streets.

00:13:04.120 There are a lot of ways in which we are doing a slow ramp of immigration enforcement because we inherited a deportation operation that was so broken.

00:13:12.420 And then the third thing that I'd say is the left has fought us so aggressively, but many of our victories are starting to bear fruit.

00:13:19.280 I mean, like just yesterday or the day before, you had a left-wing judge who said that we could not end temporary protected status for illegal Haitian immigrants.

00:13:28.400 Now, this is a program that was put in place illegally, I believe, in the Obama administration.

00:13:33.060 And now a judge is saying that we can't end it.

00:13:35.260 Well, we're going to appeal that.

00:13:36.360 We're going to win.

00:13:37.440 But some of this stuff has taken where judges have tried to stop us from deporting illegal aliens.

00:13:43.420 That's had to work its way through the appeals process.

00:13:45.740 Some of those cases, I believe, are at the Supreme Court right now.

00:13:49.060 So, it just takes time to do this in the proper way, to do it in the legal way.

00:13:53.820 It's taken time, especially when the left is fighting us so aggressively.

00:13:57.720 But it's going to keep on happening.

00:13:59.140 I mean, the president has been very clear, we're not going to stop enforcing our immigration policies.

00:14:03.680 We're going to keep doing it.

00:14:05.020 But I think, frankly, we'll probably be in a better position to do it a year from now than we are today.

00:14:10.560 And we're certainly in a much better position today than we were a year ago.

00:14:13.340 That's interesting, because the legal landscape will have been cleared of some of these hurdles thanks to the Supreme Court.

00:14:17.960 Look, I mean, Megan, sometimes, Stephen Miller is one of my closest friends in the administration.

00:14:23.180 He and I go way back.

00:14:24.560 Sometimes, we'll exchange messages, and it's like, can you believe this judge did this?

00:14:28.100 It's going to delay this thing another three months or another six months.

00:14:31.160 But then you realize, okay, three months, six months, but we keep on winning these cases, right?

00:14:36.720 So, yes, you have radical judges who are slowing things.

00:14:39.560 They're not going to be able to stop things so long as we in the administration maintain our posture on it, and we're going to.

00:14:46.040 Do you find it shocking, like the judge who issued that order saying you cannot end temporary protected status is the same judge who tried to stop Trump's ban on transgenders serving in the military.

00:14:56.100 And both times, she said it's animus.

00:14:58.280 The administration either hates transgender people or now, in this case, it hates black people from Haiti.

00:15:05.100 And both times, I mean, she was overruled on the first case.

00:15:07.380 She's likely to be overruled on this case.

00:15:08.960 But you're a lawyer.

00:15:09.960 Do you find it shocking how opinionated, how personal these judges make it?

00:15:13.940 Yes, I do.

00:15:14.220 And there was the one judge who was like, the administration should read the Declaration of Independence.

00:15:18.700 I guarantee you that our president and the Trump administration is aware of the Declaration of Independence and has actually read it.

00:15:24.920 I don't think Biden could have cited the first ten words of the Declaration of Independence.

00:15:28.440 So there is this weird judicial animosity towards the administration.

00:15:32.700 But we kind of knew we were going to do this.

00:15:34.640 I mean, I remember during the transition, we talked through, OK, we know there are some far left judges who are going to do nationwide injunctions, which, by the way, I think are illegitimate, but set that to the side.

00:15:44.940 And we know we're going to have to power through this stuff.

00:15:46.840 We're only a year into a four year term.

00:15:48.980 So we are making progress.

00:15:50.400 But this animus point is really interesting because I think to the extent that there are still, and I'm fundamentally optimistic about human nature, there are still some good faith people on the far left who are trying to, who hopefully would try to understand where we're coming from.

00:16:06.620 Here's what I would say.

00:16:07.960 So I got an email from a classmate of mine a couple of weeks ago, and I didn't respond to it, but I did read it.

00:16:13.360 And it was basically like, you know, it was a plea to sort of stop the chaos and to calm down the chaos.

00:16:19.640 And I read it and I thought, OK, this is a good human being, even though I disagree with his politics.

00:16:24.040 And, of course, we don't want immigration enforcement to be chaotic.

00:16:26.720 It's one of the reasons why we've encouraged state and local officials to work with us.

00:16:30.660 But fundamentally, the question is, are we allowed to do what the American people elected us to do?

00:16:36.960 Biden lets in, call it 20 million illegal aliens.

00:16:39.580 If the courts tell us that we're not allowed to deport the people that the American people elected us to deport, that's fundamentally not about even immigration anymore.

00:16:48.780 That's about democracy.

00:16:50.080 Are the American people still sovereign if one administration can do something and the other administration can't do what the American people elected them to do in order to reverse it?

00:17:01.880 And you think about even there's another layer to it, which is nobody elected Joe Biden to open the border.

00:17:07.400 If you actually look at what Joe Biden said on immigration during the 2020 campaign, he sounded a lot more like a moderate, even conservative Republican.

00:17:16.580 And then, of course, they got into power and they opened the border.

00:17:19.500 So doesn't it cast into doubt the legitimacy of our system if one president running on reasonable immigration enforcement opens the border and then another president is not allowed to close it and deport all those people who came?

00:17:32.840 I think that's fundamentally what's at stake here is do judges control, does the far left control American, the American constitutional republic or do the people?

00:17:43.720 And I believe the people are sovereign, which is why we pursued the policies that we have.

00:17:47.460 The example of Minneapolis has been troubling to both sides.

00:17:51.680 The left has used it to say ICE is out of control and the Trump administration is out of control.

00:17:56.320 And the right is frustrated that, by some accounts, we appear to have bent the knee there.

00:18:01.720 Yes.

00:18:02.020 In other words, Noam's out, Holman's in, now we're only focusing on the criminals.

00:18:06.300 He says we're focused on the non-criminal illegals.

00:18:09.000 I realize they've all committed crimes by coming here illegally.

00:18:11.620 But my point is the far right, definitely, or the right, I think, wants all illegals gone.

00:18:17.200 Of course.

00:18:17.740 And actually, the polls show that the majority of the American people still want that.

00:18:21.180 Yes.

00:18:21.400 They want all of the illegals gone, not just the ones who have committed additional crimes upon getting here.

00:18:25.420 And I think a lot of us are wondering, what is the plan for getting them?

00:18:29.540 Because it seems that the left has effectively exercised its veto by its terrible behavior in Minneapolis.

00:18:35.920 Yeah.

00:18:36.180 Such to, you know, Holman is very focused on getting the illegals out.

00:18:40.060 All of the reforms he's announcing are with respect to getting the illegals who have committed additional crimes

00:18:45.260 and notification of them before they leave the local jails, which would be great.

00:18:48.280 That would be a compromise of sanctuary city policy there.

00:18:50.800 We don't yet have an agreement on that in Minneapolis, which is the biggest area.

00:18:54.940 Maybe we'll get it.

00:18:55.960 But the point is simply, what about all the others?

00:18:58.480 Yeah.

00:18:58.620 So I actually, I kind of like that our side is so insistent on this issue.

00:19:04.280 I like the pressure.

00:19:05.300 I like people saying, we recognize you've done a lot.

00:19:07.980 Now do more.

00:19:08.780 I think that's kind of how this should work, is that fundamentally, you know, the president

00:19:11.900 and I and the entire administration, we work for the American people.

00:19:14.700 And so I hear these complaints.

00:19:16.160 I hear these criticisms.

00:19:17.520 I guess I'd say a couple of things.

00:19:18.540 So first of all, again, you have an entire legal landscape, but also a deportation enforcement

00:19:23.760 mechanism, all of these additional ICE officers that we brought in as part of the one big

00:19:28.340 beautiful bill, that's getting online now.

00:19:31.980 But they're not going to Minneapolis.

00:19:33.740 Well, some of them will.

00:19:35.060 Some of them certainly will.

00:19:35.400 Homan just announced a drawdown of 700 troops out there.

00:19:37.260 So Homan announced a partial drawdown, but because the local authorities are cooperating

00:19:42.520 with them.

00:19:42.780 And this is why it's important to segregate, what are we talking about, immigration enforcement

00:19:46.780 or everything else.

00:19:48.620 We're not drawing down immigration enforcement.

00:19:50.840 We're drawing down some of the federal officers that were helping the guys doing immigration

00:19:55.440 enforcement.

00:19:56.020 And this is what I think, frankly, the far left and also some of our guys on the right

00:19:59.960 didn't fully appreciate.

00:20:01.340 When Homan says we're drawing 700 people down, those are the people who were protecting the

00:20:05.720 ICE officers as they went out and did deportations and immigration enforcement.

00:20:10.940 Most of the people that we have in Minneapolis, they're not doing immigration enforcement.

00:20:14.580 That's true even after the 700 drawdown.

00:20:17.300 Most of them are protecting the immigration officers from the mob that's forming around

00:20:23.260 them.

00:20:23.840 So as we get more and more cooperation from Minneapolis and from the state of Minnesota,

00:20:28.000 and we are starting to get real cooperation from them in a way that we haven't, we don't

00:20:32.660 want people there doing effectively police work so that they can protect our immigration

00:20:37.160 officers.

00:20:37.800 We want the immigration officers to go and do their work.

00:20:40.180 And if they get into a problem, they can call local police.

00:20:42.540 As that happens, I think you're going to see some of that law enforcement shifting to

00:20:49.460 the local police, which is exactly what we wanted.

00:20:51.300 And by the way, well before the Freddie shooting or the Renee Good shooting, that's what we were

00:20:55.220 asking.

00:20:56.320 Because if you look, even in very blue places, like Memphis, Tennessee, or a number of other

00:21:00.680 cities, you see the system working as it should.

00:21:03.860 An immigration officer goes in, arrests an illegal alien, that person gets processed and

00:21:08.320 deported.

00:21:09.080 And if, God forbid, you have a mob forming, the ICE officers can call the local police

00:21:13.660 and say, hey, these guys are threatening us.

00:21:16.040 They're harassing us.

00:21:16.860 They're maybe even assaulting us.

00:21:18.360 The reason why Minneapolis was so chaotic is because we had to have all these extra officers

00:21:22.840 doing the job the local police wouldn't do.

00:21:25.320 If the local police are willing to step up a little bit, I think that's a good thing,

00:21:29.720 not a bad thing.

00:21:30.700 And, you know, I don't want to give this talk of surrender because I know that we haven't

00:21:33.880 surrendered, but if they're in Minnesota doing the very thing that they said they refused

00:21:38.900 to do, I don't think that's a surrender on the part of the Trump administration, especially

00:21:43.340 as we continue on immigration enforcement.

00:21:45.520 What about the secret option of E-Verify, where we go after the employers and we find

00:21:50.840 them if we find out that they're employing illegals?

00:21:53.820 It seems there's been a reluctance to do that, even by the Trump administration, because

00:21:57.160 there are a lot of employers who, let's face it, like employing cheap labor through

00:22:00.940 illegal immigrants.

00:22:01.640 Yes.

00:22:02.460 So, you know, I supported E-Verify legislation when I was in the Senate.

00:22:07.600 It's been an issue.

00:22:08.460 I actually campaigned on it when I ran for the Senate.

00:22:10.780 It's funny, I've never talked to the president about E-Verify specifically, but it would require

00:22:15.400 an act of Congress.

00:22:16.540 And that is something that, look, I would like to believe that Congress would support

00:22:21.480 E-Verify legislation.

00:22:22.900 I frankly don't know that we have the people that would make it happen.

00:22:25.980 But look, if Congress wants to do it, then they should do it.

00:22:28.820 And then, of course, that would give us some additional immigration enforcement

00:22:31.420 tools.

00:22:31.760 We would love that.

00:22:32.820 But fundamentally, that is something that Congress has to fix.

00:22:35.960 We've done a lot, by the way.

00:22:37.080 We've made it harder for employers to hire illegal aliens.

00:22:39.900 We've made it harder for illegal aliens and, frankly, some legal visa holders to get access

00:22:44.820 to the benefits that should go to American citizens.

00:22:48.040 So there's a lot that we can do administratively.

00:22:50.880 Certain things like fully verify.

00:22:52.660 You do need Congress.

00:22:53.340 You mentioned Congress.

00:22:55.140 It's not looking so good for the Republicans to hold on to the House.

00:22:57.600 We'll see.

00:22:58.060 At least in the midterms.

00:22:59.380 I mean, now some people are worried about the Senate, which would really be a calamitous

00:23:02.340 for the right.

00:23:03.060 Yep.

00:23:04.180 What will happen if the Democrats do win control of the House only?

00:23:08.160 Will anything change?

00:23:09.240 I mean, I realize you're going to have an investigation coming your way every two weeks.

00:23:12.480 But we haven't had a lot of legislation pushed through the first year, just given the 60 vote

00:23:16.700 threshold in the Senate.

00:23:18.120 So realistically, what do you think would change?

00:23:20.640 Well, I think a couple of things.

00:23:21.860 One, Democrats will try to spend more money, particularly on their targeted populations.

00:23:25.420 You'd see a lot of legislation saying we're going to shut down the government unless we

00:23:29.060 give more health care benefits to illegal aliens, more federal-backed loans to illegal

00:23:33.200 aliens.

00:23:33.900 So that would definitely be a fight that we would have.

00:23:36.080 And I think we would win some of those fights.

00:23:37.900 But if the Democrats control the House, we probably wouldn't win all of them.

00:23:41.240 The bigger thing that would happen is just impeachment, impeachment, impeachment.

00:23:43.940 Like if you look at, go back to 95.

00:23:45.780 Okay, so Republicans win, Bill Clinton does what's called the triangulation, and you have

00:23:51.380 this great bipartisan compromise on welfare reform and on tax policy and on regulatory policy.

00:23:57.920 Anybody hoping that Democrats win and you see a lot of bipartisan legislation, you need

00:24:03.720 to stop taking the drugs because that's not going to happen.

00:24:06.400 Democrats are not interested.

00:24:08.060 They have said they're not interested in doing any big bipartisan legislation for the American

00:24:12.540 people.

00:24:12.920 What are they interested in?

00:24:14.020 Impeachment.

00:24:14.460 They are interested in getting Trump and getting the people in his administration, and that's

00:24:18.600 what we would have.

00:24:19.200 For two years, we would have a government.

00:24:20.800 We would have a Department of Justice.

00:24:22.620 We would have a White House where we'd still be able to get a lot done.

00:24:25.760 But fundamentally, there's a lot that wouldn't happen because we'd be so focused on sham impeachment

00:24:30.500 trials where the Democrats, by the way, would know they weren't going anywhere.

00:24:34.300 But that's all they have.

00:24:35.780 Actually ask yourself, what is it that unifies the Democratic Party in 2026 America?

00:24:43.640 You might say it's men and women's sports, and nobody really cares about that, or if they

00:24:50.080 do care about it, they hate it like we do.

00:24:51.940 You can't run a national party on men and women's sports.

00:24:55.940 Raising taxes on hardworking Americans.

00:24:58.580 A lot of Democrats believe that.

00:25:00.360 You can't run a campaign on that.

00:25:01.720 The only thing that they have is they hate Donald Trump.

00:25:05.560 That's what unifies their party.

00:25:07.060 They hate the Trump administration.

00:25:08.600 That's what unifies their party.

00:25:09.900 And that's what their legislative agenda would look like if we gave them power.

00:25:15.020 Also hating Trump and hating abortion.

00:25:17.280 I mean, loving abortion.

00:25:18.120 Those two things.

00:25:18.960 Yeah, I mean, they're really solid on that.

00:25:21.020 Again, I don't think this is true of most Democrats in our country, but most elected Democrats,

00:25:26.720 it is a weird obsession with a culture of death, gender ideology, affirmative action, diversity,

00:25:33.720 equity, and inclusion.

00:25:34.620 It's like all of the things that divide Americans against each other, that make Americans hate

00:25:39.080 one another, and that make Americans poor and less safe, that is the operating focus of

00:25:43.680 elected Democrats.

00:25:44.680 But they're smart enough to recognize they can't run on that.

00:25:47.140 They can't run on any of their actual policies.

00:25:49.920 So they're not going to try to enact this stuff.

00:25:51.940 They're just going to try to attack the president.

00:25:53.260 We mentioned the press a minute ago.

00:25:55.680 Someone who claims to be a member of it is Don Lemon, who's been arrested now.

00:26:00.800 The dumbest man in television.

00:26:01.780 Yeah, I mean, and that's saying something.

00:26:05.060 He's under arrest because he stormed a church in the middle of a Sunday service, along with

00:26:10.300 a lot of other rioters, and disrupted people trying to worship.

00:26:14.360 He's trying to cloak himself in the First Amendment, saying this is an attack on freedom

00:26:17.840 of the press.

00:26:19.020 And you say what?

00:26:19.780 Well, I say first, Don, no one's objecting to you standing outside of a church and protesting.

00:26:26.740 No one's saying you can't protest the Trump administration's immigration policies, or

00:26:32.260 frankly, our policies on anything else.

00:26:34.000 What you cannot do is go into somebody's house of worship and prevent them from exercising

00:26:38.960 their First Amendment right to the free exercise of religion.

00:26:42.620 That's what happened.

00:26:43.240 By the way, there's a federal law on the books that says you're not allowed to interrupt

00:26:46.920 churches, you're not allowed to prevent people from entering or leaving a church.

00:26:50.820 And the Biden administration aggressively prosecuted people.

00:26:53.940 Where was Don Lemon when people were getting aggressively prosecuted for sham violations of

00:26:58.680 the FACE Act?

00:26:59.380 We have a rock-solid violation of the FACE Act, which is you were sticking a microphone in

00:27:05.560 the face of a minister during the church service while the people you were with were preventing

00:27:10.580 people from leaving.

00:27:11.940 That's a violation of the law.

00:27:13.040 Well, that's not about the First Amendment.

00:27:15.060 You care about criticizing our immigration policies?

00:27:17.440 Then stand outside the church and protest.

00:27:19.900 You don't get to violate other people's rights.

00:27:22.400 And if you do, the Trump administration, we're going to try to do everything that we can to

00:27:26.020 make sure you suffer legal consequences.

00:27:28.500 The administration is trying to decide right now what to do about Iran.

00:27:33.740 And that's a tough one, too.

00:27:35.480 It's a tough one.

00:27:35.760 Because you actually have a split within the Republican Party, as you do on so many things,

00:27:40.280 because Republicans love to disagree with each other, unlike the Democrats.

00:27:42.580 Yes, we do.

00:27:43.400 And I love that.

00:27:44.280 I love the diversity.

00:27:45.200 I love the dynamism.

00:27:45.540 I think it's great, too.

00:27:46.760 But just how aggressive should we be with Iran?

00:27:48.860 There's a very large faction of the Republican Party that says, what are we talking about

00:27:52.720 Iran for?

00:27:53.500 What do you mean?

00:27:54.240 America first.

00:27:55.080 Let's focus on our own problems, affordability, all these things.

00:27:58.000 Sure.

00:27:58.080 And they think President Trump spent too much time focused on overseas issues anyway.

00:28:01.500 And they definitely don't want to get involved in Iran.

00:28:03.520 And then there's a larger faction, another faction that is also large, that's more neo-cani,

00:28:08.060 that says, we missed an opportunity, we let those protesters down, the window's closing,

00:28:12.820 we should be more aggressive militarily there right now.

00:28:15.620 Where do you fall?

00:28:16.680 Well, so first of all, I hear the criticisms out there that the administration's too focused

00:28:20.960 on foreign policy.

00:28:22.160 I just have to defend the president.

00:28:23.640 I don't think that's true.

00:28:24.260 I think that certainly when you're the president of the United States, you do have to conduct

00:28:27.520 foreign policy.

00:28:28.340 We're the most powerful country in the world.

00:28:30.280 But what I see him every day, he's laser focused on how do we make the American people

00:28:34.640 more prosperous and more secure in their own country.

00:28:37.260 That's what our immigration policy is about, which we've taken a raft of crap over.

00:28:41.040 That's what our crime policy is about.

00:28:42.960 That's, you know, even the foreign policy stuff, much of the president's foreign policy

00:28:46.540 has been focused on reshoring industry, on using tariffs to force people to reinvest

00:28:51.580 in the United States of America.

00:28:52.580 So the global criticism, I just don't think people, look, the president is going to have

00:28:57.560 to engage in foreign policy, but this president, I think, is much more focused on the home front

00:29:01.840 than any president in my lifetime.

00:29:03.540 And he's gotten a lot, I mean, look, $18 trillion in new investment.

00:29:06.940 The country's finally starting to re-industrialize.

00:29:08.820 $18 trillion from other countries who are investing into the United States.

00:29:11.580 Who are investing in the United States of America.

00:29:12.600 That has been the exact opposite for our entire lives, Megan.

00:29:16.740 It has been American money building factories overseas.

00:29:19.460 Now it's other money coming in to build factories for American workers and the American people.

00:29:24.640 That's big.

00:29:25.180 By the way, we're not going to see the full benefits of that for years, maybe even a decade.

00:29:28.920 But that's the sort of investment in the country that really pays long-term dividends.

00:29:32.880 Now, Iran specifically, like, what should we do with Iran?

00:29:35.000 Okay, a couple of things.

00:29:36.120 First of all, it's the president's decision.

00:29:37.800 He will ultimately decide how we handle this particular Iranian situation, just like he

00:29:41.960 decided on Operation Midnight Hammer.

00:29:44.220 What he has been very clear on, if you go back to 2015, 2016, 2021, 2025, the president

00:29:50.620 has said consistently, we can't let these people have a nuclear weapon.

00:29:54.160 Now, why?

00:29:54.740 Why does that matter to America?

00:29:55.980 Number one, the world's largest state sponsor of terrorism.

00:29:59.000 Like, you think it's bad when we have a domestic terror attack where a couple of people die,

00:30:03.900 and you're right.

00:30:05.080 What happens when the same people who are shooting up a mall or driving airplanes into

00:30:09.400 buildings have a nuclear weapon?

00:30:11.000 That is unacceptable.

00:30:12.600 And it's not just them.

00:30:13.960 Because if the Iranians get a nuclear weapon, you know who gets a nuclear weapon like the

00:30:17.420 next day?

00:30:18.420 The Saudi Arabians.

00:30:19.580 And then somebody else in the Gulf Arab state.

00:30:21.600 And so you have nuclear proliferation on a global scale.

00:30:25.980 The biggest threat to security in the world is a lot of people having nuclear weapons.

00:30:30.860 So what the president has said is, Iran's not going to get a nuclear weapon.

00:30:33.520 We're going to work with China and Russia and any country, whether they're a friend

00:30:36.960 or whether we're a little more competitive, to try to draw down the amount of nuclear weapons

00:30:41.300 that exist in the world.

00:30:42.480 I think that's the most important thing you could do for peace and stability.

00:30:46.000 And the question is, what do you do to enforce that red line?

00:30:49.240 OK, Iran can't have a nuclear weapon.

00:30:50.900 That is the stated policy goal of the president of the United States.

00:30:54.120 It's so funny.

00:30:54.820 Sometimes you have people who are saying, well, the president's too belligerent.

00:30:58.620 And then sometimes you have people who say, well, the president, he's talking about

00:31:01.800 diplomacy and he's talking about negotiating with the Iranians.

00:31:04.180 We shouldn't negotiate.

00:31:05.060 We should just bomb them.

00:31:06.240 What the president's going to do is he's going to keep his options open.

00:31:09.660 He's going to talk to everybody.

00:31:11.060 He's going to try to accomplish what he can through non-military means.

00:31:14.920 And if he feels like the military is the only option, then he's ultimately going to choose

00:31:18.700 that option.

00:31:19.120 Obviously, even if I knew what we were going to do, I would not tell you and your many millions

00:31:25.480 of listeners.

00:31:26.600 But I feel like people have to remember that this is not about like, look, I grew up in

00:31:33.300 the Iraq generation.

00:31:34.680 I literally enlisted in the Marine Corps as an idealistic young kid right after 9-11.

00:31:41.540 I went to Iraq in 2000.

00:31:43.140 I enlisted in 2003.

00:31:44.080 I went to Iraq in 2005.

00:31:45.020 I am very cognizant that the Middle East leads to quagmires.

00:31:49.220 Trust me.

00:31:49.680 So is the president of the United States.

00:31:51.180 And we're hearing that.

00:31:52.520 We know that's out there.

00:31:53.520 But more importantly, we know the history.

00:31:55.860 And the president does not, he has no interest in repeating the history of Iraq.

00:32:00.940 What he does want to make sure is that there's a totally separate issue, which is you don't

00:32:05.040 let crazy people get nuclear weapons and then lead to a nuclear arms race all over the world.

00:32:10.200 I mean, you tell me whether this is about nuclear weapons right now or not.

00:32:14.140 But what we're seeing in Iran is these protests on the street, not as much anymore because

00:32:18.260 they've been killing a lot of the protesters.

00:32:20.360 But it's, should we go in there and help the protesters get rid of this regime, like

00:32:24.880 get rid of the Ayatollah, which, let's face it, it's much different in Iran.

00:32:29.460 The regime goes well beyond the Ayatollah.

00:32:31.800 It's not like Venezuela where you take on Maduro.

00:32:34.520 It's a lot more complex.

00:32:35.860 Even if we got rid of the Ayatollah, there'd be a whole bunch of others just like him,

00:32:39.760 part of the regime.

00:32:40.480 And so the last thing most Americans want to hear is what we heard in Venezuela, which

00:32:44.840 is now we're running Iran.

00:32:46.700 Yeah.

00:32:47.240 The president is very aware of all this stuff, Megan.

00:32:49.780 But I'll tell you, you know, protests, you know, counter regime.

00:32:53.540 I mean, look, in a perfect world, would I love it if a bunch of freedom loving Iranians

00:32:57.840 who, by the way, are amazing, they're brave people.

00:32:59.920 If you know anything about the Persian people, they're like an incredible group of human

00:33:03.260 beings.

00:33:03.900 If they took over their own country and had a government that was much more friendly

00:33:08.360 to the United States of America, would that be a good thing?

00:33:10.280 Absolutely.

00:33:10.820 That would be a good thing.

00:33:11.940 But fundamentally, what the president has always been focused on, even with this most

00:33:15.400 recent round of protests, you saw, I think, his most recent truth, or at least one of the

00:33:19.320 more recent communications he made about Iran, it's nuclear weapons base.

00:33:22.960 We are still focused on this question of ensuring they don't get a nuclear weapon.

00:33:27.280 And here's the good thing.

00:33:27.920 Because of what happened last summer, I feel 100% confident that even if the Iranians

00:33:32.600 were rushing towards a nuclear weapon, they couldn't get one during the Trump administration.

00:33:37.560 But we're not worried about the next three years.

00:33:39.520 We're worried about the next 30 years.

00:33:40.680 We have to make sure that you don't look.

00:33:43.100 Look, what I really worry about, and I think this is, you know, obviously I disagree a lot

00:33:47.540 with Bill Clinton, but Bill Clinton fundamentally decided, you know what, we're just going to

00:33:51.840 let North Korea have a nuclear weapon.

00:33:53.360 We're not going to do anything to stop it.

00:33:55.060 What happens if 30 years from now, the number of nuclear countries, it's less than 10, maybe

00:34:01.780 about 10?

00:34:02.560 What if it goes to 100?

00:34:04.780 What if every military in the world has a nuclear weapon?

00:34:07.660 What if a crazy person gets elected in some random outpost of the world that you and I

00:34:12.880 couldn't even find on a map, and now all of a sudden a crazy guy has access to nuclear

00:34:16.880 weapons?

00:34:17.640 Nuclear proliferation, that is very much a bad thing and something in America First foreign

00:34:22.360 policy should focus on.

00:34:23.620 That is certainly where the president is most worried about.

00:34:26.660 When it comes to defending the homeland, the president's been looking northward to Greenland

00:34:32.000 and to Canada.

00:34:33.860 But he's been very focused on Greenland.

00:34:35.780 Yes.

00:34:35.980 And you tell me what we got that made him say, okay, now I'm happy, because he gave

00:34:40.620 that speech at the UN, like, we need to have Greenland, and we need to own it, because

00:34:44.020 no one would defend something on lease.

00:34:45.920 Yeah.

00:34:46.280 But then, by the end of the UN summit, he came out saying, we're satisfied, but we seem to

00:34:52.220 only have gotten permission that we might have had already to build more military bases

00:34:56.080 on a couple of their outposts.

00:34:57.820 No, we definitely have gotten much more than we initially had.

00:35:01.180 So first of all, again, it's important to define the interest here.

00:35:03.780 Greenland is very important to America's national security.

00:35:07.020 Our entire missile defense system, by the way, would be inoperable if the Russians or

00:35:11.260 the Chinese controlled Greenland.

00:35:13.400 So God forbid, I don't think it's going to happen, to be clear, but God forbid some foreign

00:35:17.000 country launches a missile, an ICBM at the United States of America.

00:35:20.300 We couldn't defend ourselves if a foreign country controlled Greenland.

00:35:24.260 And by the way, the Chinese and the Russians have both expressed an interest in control

00:35:27.720 in Greenland.

00:35:28.520 Okay.

00:35:28.900 So what is the defensive mechanism for Greenland?

00:35:31.600 You have a population of about 60,000 people on a massive territory, right?

00:35:35.220 That's like the size of my hometown, and I didn't grow up in a big town.

00:35:38.480 And then on top of that, you have Denmark, which has been one of the better NATO allies,

00:35:45.180 to be clear, but has still radically underinvested in security compared to the Russians and the

00:35:50.560 Chinese.

00:35:51.200 So the president has said very simply, we are on the hook for this island.

00:35:54.880 Like, it's one of those unwritten rules that everybody knows that if the Chinese or the

00:35:59.360 Russians affected one of our critical missile defense systems, we would necessarily defend

00:36:05.040 that.

00:36:05.440 But we're not getting anything for it.

00:36:06.820 This is an unfair situation.

00:36:08.820 The United States has no ownership over this island, and we don't get any of the benefit.

00:36:12.600 So let's actually rewrite the rules here a little bit and say, if the United States is

00:36:16.520 going to protect the entire world's missile defense system, primarily our own, but other

00:36:21.120 people benefit from it, we should get some benefit from the bargain.

00:36:24.100 Now, it's interesting, because I actually was sitting in this room, one of the rare times

00:36:29.520 I've used this ceremonial office for official business, me and Marco and a lot of the leaders

00:36:33.860 from Denmark and Greenland had a great conversation.

00:36:36.820 And it's funny when you see-

00:36:37.820 Is this one where they ran for their cigarettes when they exited the building?

00:36:40.860 Maybe.

00:36:41.400 Yeah, I think they did.

00:36:42.560 They were stressed.

00:36:43.900 I did not follow up.

00:36:44.960 I did not see what they did afterwards.

00:36:46.600 We had a good meeting.

00:36:47.880 It's so funny to me, because the Europeans, they're so friendly and private, and they're

00:36:52.880 willing to make a lot of accommodations.

00:36:54.120 And then publicly, they attack us, and they say, we're not going to work with the Americans.

00:36:58.620 We're not going to do anything with the Americans.

00:37:00.300 I'm sorry.

00:37:01.160 It's all bogus.

00:37:02.200 We all know, everybody knows, that this situation is going to come to a resolution.

00:37:06.460 I think it's going to be a resolution that's good for Europe.

00:37:08.520 Most importantly, it'll be a resolution that's good for the United States of America.

00:37:11.740 But the idea that they haven't made any accommodations or concessions to the United States, it's not true.

00:37:16.000 Are we at the beginning of a new world order, where we move away from Europe and toward anything else?

00:37:22.240 Maybe even potentially Russia, if we can get past what's happened here?

00:37:25.860 I mean, there's a real question about that, given some of the speeches you've made to the European Union,

00:37:30.280 some of the speeches that President Trump has made, what's happening culturally in Europe,

00:37:34.540 what's their crackdowns on free speech.

00:37:36.300 They just look less and less like we do.

00:37:38.760 And there's a real question about whether there's a massive shift happening now in terms of world alliances long term.

00:37:43.820 Well, there's definitely, I think, a new world order.

00:37:46.240 I think the President has sought to it.

00:37:47.440 There's a new world order in trade.

00:37:49.000 There's a new world order in globalization and the way that we invest in our economy versus foreign supply chains.

00:37:55.420 There's a new world order in that the President is willing to shake up some old alliance structures.

00:37:59.460 I mean, NATO, I think, is much different because of the President's leadership than it was 10 years ago.

00:38:04.000 It was sort of coasting.

00:38:05.060 It was effectively a protectorate of the United States of America.

00:38:07.760 Obviously, you saw what happened in Venezuela.

00:38:09.200 So, yeah, the President is putting a stamp on world history.

00:38:12.540 But fundamentally, in an America first way.

00:38:15.140 Like, that is the orienting focus.

00:38:17.160 And so, when people say, well, you can't work with Putin on anything because you disagree with the Ukraine invasion.

00:38:23.720 Well, the President said very clearly, Putin should not have invaded Ukraine.

00:38:27.000 We're going to try to work and bring that to an end.

00:38:28.920 But there might be some areas of cooperation, too.

00:38:31.320 His attitude is not, you're our friend.

00:38:34.060 You're our enemy.

00:38:35.160 We're going to go to war with our enemies.

00:38:37.000 And we're going to be, you know, we're going to give our friends everything without asking questions.

00:38:40.920 His attitude is, we're about alliances.

00:38:43.420 And you could have a country where we have a 90% aligned interest, but we're going to disagree on 10% of issues.

00:38:48.920 Meanwhile, we may disagree with Russia on a lot, but we may agree on some things.

00:38:53.100 And I do think that is a fundamental reorientation.

00:38:55.760 The other thing that's much different, Megan, about the President's foreign policy and just the way that he does business.

00:39:00.600 And it's, look, there's a lot that I've learned from him, but this is nearly at the top of the list of the things I admire about the President of the United States, is he will talk to anybody.

00:39:11.920 Like, you know, when he was thinking about who to make his vice president, he was talking to the gardener at Mar-a-Lago.

00:39:16.780 He told me that.

00:39:17.620 And I said, well, sir, what did the gardener at Mar-a-Lago say that really matters to my life?

00:39:20.960 And, but, you know, when people say, you shouldn't talk to this person, right?

00:39:26.960 You shouldn't talk to Kim Jong-un of North Korea because that gives him something for nothing.

00:39:31.440 No, I'm going to have a conversation.

00:39:33.380 We're going to actually conduct diplomacy.

00:39:35.160 If we have to use the military, he's obviously not afraid to do it when he feels like he needs to.

00:39:39.780 But the willingness to just communicate and break down barriers is very important.

00:39:44.040 This is, by the way, Megan, one thing I would say about the Iranians that is just really weird to me, and I don't understand their system.

00:39:50.380 And I frankly think that it makes diplomacy with them extraordinarily difficult, is the person who makes the decisions in Iran is the supreme leader, okay?

00:39:58.920 The president, our sense is, doesn't have a lot of juice.

00:40:01.920 It doesn't really matter.

00:40:02.640 The foreign minister seems to talk to the supreme leader, and that's mainly the person that we've communicated with.

00:40:07.920 But it's a very weird country to conduct diplomacy with when you can't even talk to the person who's in charge of the country.

00:40:15.260 That makes all of this much more complicated.

00:40:18.200 And it makes the whole situation much more absurd.

00:40:22.360 Like, he can pick up the phone and call Putin.

00:40:24.180 He can pick up the phone and call Xi.

00:40:25.620 Even countries that we have very hostile relations with, he can pick up the phone, you know, North Korea.

00:40:31.120 He met the guy at the 38th parallel.

00:40:33.640 It is bizarre that we can't just talk to the actual leadership of a country.

00:40:38.500 It's really, it makes diplomacy very, very difficult.

00:40:41.780 What, why are we letting 600,000 Chinese students into our universities?

00:40:46.140 It was 300 and change.

00:40:48.500 Laura Ingram asked President Trump about this, and he said, oh, we need to do business with China.

00:40:52.060 It seemed like some sort of a deal had been cut where we gave them a bone of allowing double their students.

00:40:56.900 Nobody wants this.

00:40:57.820 No, it's not.

00:41:00.260 Look, the president's view is we don't want to create an unnecessarily antagonistic relationship with China.

00:41:06.360 Like, there are certain, some disagreements.

00:41:08.100 There are some things where our interests collide.

00:41:10.260 But we can protect our intellectual property, in the president's view, without creating an unnecessary conflict with the Chinese.

00:41:18.100 Every slot filled by one of these Chinese students is one lost by an American.

00:41:21.120 What the president is trying to do is, I think, create the situation where we can have good relations.

00:41:27.640 Now, we're not radically, and this has been misreported, I think, we're not, like, radically increasing the number of visas that we give to China.

00:41:34.320 That's just not true.

00:41:35.060 I've seen that reported.

00:41:35.880 It's not true.

00:41:36.940 What we are doing is trying to preserve a very delicate diplomatic balance.

00:41:40.620 Like anything, there are risks and rewards and costs and benefits.

00:41:44.040 But the president is trying to balance a very important relationship for the United States.

00:41:47.460 How about election integrity here at home?

00:41:51.300 There's a bill right now.

00:41:52.640 Let's get the Save Act.

00:41:53.480 Let's get the Save Act.

00:41:54.600 But what's going to happen with that?

00:41:56.200 Well, we're working very hard right now to get the Senate to approve it because if the Senate approves it, we think the House would approve it, too.

00:42:02.700 Now, that would require, I think, some Republican senators who maybe they're a little too attached to the filibuster.

00:42:08.820 Maybe they're a little too attached to Senate procedure.

00:42:11.260 This is about the integrity of American democracy.

00:42:13.620 Like, do the people control who they elect?

00:42:16.800 Or do some shady people?

00:42:20.200 Who actually controls the people who cast the ballots or the people who count the ballots?

00:42:24.440 We want the sovereignty to be with the people who cast the ballots.

00:42:28.860 And that's why we have to get the Save Act passed.

00:42:30.820 So you'll hear people say all the time, and I love this argument, they'll say, well, if you look at this precinct, only three illegal aliens voted in this election.

00:42:40.120 Number one, that's three illegal aliens, too many.

00:42:42.600 And number two, if it's not a big problem, then why not just allow us to check ID and exercise some basic precautions to prevent illegal aliens from voting?

00:42:52.480 I never quite understand the person who says, on the one hand, this never happens.

00:42:57.100 And on the other hand, your effort to prevent it from happening is a threat to American democracy, which is fundamentally the Democrats' argument.

00:43:04.280 By the way, it's like an 85-15 issue.

00:43:06.560 Yeah.

00:43:06.660 Most Democrats want voter ID because they want to protect their own vote.

00:43:11.940 But the elected leaders don't want to vote for it.

00:43:13.480 But the elected leaders don't because they know that the more control they give to the people who are counting the ballots, as opposed to those who are casting the ballots, the more control they will have because the deep state is the left.

00:43:23.360 So what happens?

00:43:23.880 Is this where the rubber meets the road, like on the filibuster and whether we get rid of it, which John Thune doesn't want?

00:43:29.900 I hope that it is, Megan.

00:43:31.060 That is what we're working very hard to make happen.

00:43:33.340 Now, there is also some in-between solutions we're working on.

00:43:36.480 Like, for example, can you allow the Democrats to preserve the filibuster but actually force them to go and do a real filibuster?

00:43:43.400 Like not wear a procedural paperwork filibuster, but stand there and talk.

00:43:47.620 If you really want to prevent us from checking ID before votes, if you really want to ensure that illegal aliens have the right to vote,

00:43:55.720 then stand on the Senate floor, Cory Booker style, for 30 hours and defend that to the American people.

00:44:00.580 At the very least, then we'd have a real debate.

00:44:02.500 We're working on it.

00:44:03.620 I can't tell you how it's going to turn out because I can't predict 51 GOP senators, but we are making some progress.

00:44:09.560 Let's talk affordability for a minute here.

00:44:11.960 A lot of people are still suffering.

00:44:13.380 President Trump says, look, we've made a lot of progress, but, you know, the average American sitting at home doesn't feel it.

00:44:18.840 Because the polls show that the numbers are not good for the administration on the economy, and that just reflects what people are feeling.

00:44:25.280 Of course.

00:44:25.540 So what can actually happen, let's say, between now and November, speaking of the midterms, so that people actually feel better about what's happening in their wallet?

00:44:34.220 Yeah.

00:44:34.460 So I will say, if you look at the numbers on affordability, they're starting to move in our direction.

00:44:40.740 A little bit.

00:44:42.000 But there's clear movement from where there was, say, four or five months ago.

00:44:46.160 I think that's a good thing.

00:44:47.840 But here's the way that I think about it, Megan, is if you go just dollars and cents, the average American household lost about $3,000 of net wages during the Biden administration.

00:44:57.800 That's through inflation.

00:44:58.920 That's through higher taxes.

00:45:00.080 The average American household, now this is about a month old, but had gained about $1,200 during the Trump administration.

00:45:05.500 So there's a good news and there's a bad news.

00:45:07.900 The good news there is that compared to last year, you were $1,200 richer than you were.

00:45:12.460 The bad news is that compared to four or five years ago, you're about $2,800, or I guess $1,800 poorer than you were.

00:45:19.980 Okay.

00:45:20.420 So we recognize there's still a lot of work to do.

00:45:23.060 I don't think that there's anything to do, Megan, other than to do the work.

00:45:27.160 You know, we continue to have a lot of capital coming into the country.

00:45:30.860 That means higher wages, more jobs for the American people.

00:45:33.820 We continue to see grocery prices, I think, starting to come down a little bit.

00:45:37.300 There are a couple of categories.

00:45:38.380 You know, we really worry about beef in particular that we're working very hard to bring down, not for the midterms, but just because we want the American people to buy some ground beef and to buy some steak, if they so choose.

00:45:49.800 You know, there are things like cars and houses where we're seeing some real progress.

00:45:54.180 Rents have now declined five months in a row.

00:45:57.040 That's a big thing that's happening.

00:45:58.820 So it's one of these things where I don't think you're going to be able to trick the American people.

00:46:03.760 They know they got $3,000 poorer during the Biden administration.

00:46:06.900 I think they're going to judge us by how much we've made them wealthier.

00:46:10.820 And I think that come November, the verdict there is going to be positive.

00:46:14.720 But we just have to keep working at it.

00:46:16.540 The number one question that my audience wanted me to ask you.

00:46:20.920 Oh, God.

00:46:21.760 I know.

00:46:22.220 I was actually surprised by it.

00:46:23.620 Was they think the Republicans suck at messaging.

00:46:27.400 Okay.

00:46:27.800 They want to know what the administration is going to do to get their arguments out more strongly on immigration and on the progress that they've made.

00:46:37.120 I think there's a frustration, actually, amongst the GOP base that there have been a lot of wins, but people don't know it.

00:46:43.000 And that there actually is a sound immigration policy, but they let the left run with this narrative.

00:46:47.340 And the media is only too happy to spread lies about the five-year-old boy who is wrongfully deported and all that, right?

00:46:54.920 Is there a plan?

00:46:57.000 There is.

00:46:57.700 I mean, one is the president and I are just going to get on the road a lot more in the next eight, nine months.

00:47:02.320 And, you know, part of this is you've got to, look, CBS, NBC, ABC, there's always going to be an editorial slant to those networks, but they're also declining in power.

00:47:12.760 So I do things like this.

00:47:14.120 I talk to you.

00:47:14.700 I talk to your viewers through this conversation.

00:47:17.360 But most importantly, we get out on the road constantly because most people still consume their news through their local affiliate, right?

00:47:25.880 If their local CBS guy is saying, oh, the vice president came to town, the president came to town, this is what they're talking about.

00:47:32.080 That's how you get the message out there.

00:47:33.860 It's nontraditional media.

00:47:35.200 I think we were very good about this in the campaign in 2024.

00:47:37.860 It's something we want to get back to in 2026 is actually taking the message to people.

00:47:42.380 You know, going on a lot of podcasts and a lot of the nontraditional media, which, frankly, I think has more narrative power than the traditional media does.

00:47:50.720 You know, that's part of what we just have to do.

00:47:52.920 I think the first year we're so focused on governing, now we've got to go out there and talk a little bit more about what we've achieved.

00:47:58.680 I do think there's a lot to hang our hat on, to be proud of, that the American people should be proud of.

00:48:03.460 But you're right.

00:48:03.900 We've got to get out there and talk about it more.

00:48:05.940 Somebody who's not shy about talking at all is Gavin Newsom.

00:48:08.100 He's been everywhere.

00:48:10.620 Vogue really loves him.

00:48:11.840 I don't know if you saw the Vogue piece on him.

00:48:13.540 I did not.

00:48:14.140 I don't make it a habit to read Vogue or to read about Gavin Newsom.

00:48:17.360 I kid you not.

00:48:18.740 This is the lead line of their piece.

00:48:20.060 Let's get this out of the way.

00:48:21.060 He's embarrassingly handsome.

00:48:22.480 His hair seasoned with silver, at ease with his own eminence as he delivers his final State of the State address.

00:48:29.000 It must drive Trump nuts.

00:48:31.040 Newsom, lithe, ardent, energetic, a glimmer of optimism in his eye, Kennedy-esque.

00:48:37.380 Do you expect Vogue to give you this same treatment when you sit down with him, Mr. Vice President?

00:48:41.720 Just completely unbiased reporting.

00:48:42.780 That is like something out of Pravda.

00:48:49.560 Yes.

00:48:50.420 That's what Pravda would have written about Stalin.

00:48:52.640 That is crazy.

00:48:53.160 This is what you're up against.

00:48:54.760 Yeah, but I mean, how many people read Vogue?

00:48:56.820 Nobody.

00:48:57.360 But I really, it was just a segue into 2028.

00:49:00.300 My favorite topic.

00:49:03.200 Whether you think, there could be a square off with the Kennedy-esque Gavin Newsom and possibly yourself.

00:49:09.680 Well, we'll see.

00:49:11.060 I mean, look, I'll give you the answer I've given to other people, Megan, which is, it's so far in the future.

00:49:16.240 I don't want the answer you've given to other people.

00:49:17.760 Yeah, but it's the truth.

00:49:18.880 And all I can tell you is the truth is, look, I think that if we take care of business, the politics in 2028 will figure itself out.

00:49:26.620 And if we don't take care of business, there is no amount of salesmanship that is going to change that.

00:49:31.180 You've just got to actually do a good job at the job that we have right now.

00:49:35.060 And I think the American people, hopefully, in two, three, four years, say, you know what?

00:49:38.860 We want another term of the governance of this agenda.

00:49:43.760 We don't want to go back to the crazy, woke Democrats.

00:49:45.700 We want to double down on reinvesting in America, on rebuilding the American middle class.

00:49:50.560 I think that's ultimately what they're going to decide.

00:49:52.380 I can't predict the future, but it's why I'm focused on the job that I have now.

00:49:56.280 The thing, Megan, is I made this observation, and I think that it would be so warping.

00:50:01.760 And because of that, very bad for the American people if I woke up every day and thought to myself, how do I maximize my chances in 2028?

00:50:09.780 Because sometimes the answer to that question, in fact, probably most of the time, is going to be a little bit different than how do I maximize the chances of giving the American people a win, right?

00:50:20.500 I've got to focus on this job, or I'm going to hurt a lot of people who really depend on me.

00:50:25.920 Can I just ask you about the personal considerations that go into it?

00:50:28.980 You're expecting a fourth baby.

00:50:30.640 Yes.

00:50:30.940 You have a young, vibrant, very smart, and successful wife who had a big career before you guys got here.

00:50:37.980 Sure.

00:50:38.720 So what will factor in to whether you actually do run?

00:50:42.440 Oh, I mean, a huge factor.

00:50:43.940 Look, if we ever have that conversation seriously, it's, you know, do the kids actually want to do it?

00:50:49.860 Do they like this?

00:50:51.180 I mean, so far, they're very happy.

00:50:52.880 They've actually thrived in it.

00:50:53.840 And I think our eight-year-old struggles more with it than our two younger kids because, you know, they're both, you've met them, but the two younger kids are extroverts, right?

00:51:02.500 He just says the two younger kids are like me and the other kid is like her.

00:51:06.400 So he doesn't like the attention.

00:51:07.720 He doesn't like the cameras.

00:51:08.780 He doesn't like that people are always offering to do special things for him.

00:51:11.440 Even when the special thing is nice, he just kind of wants to blend in a little bit.

00:51:15.240 But so I think the question is going to be, can the family support it happily?

00:51:21.520 Can we keep our, you know, our family healthy?

00:51:24.400 And if the answer is yes, then obviously that's a notch in favor of doing it.

00:51:27.840 If the answer is no, I'd say that's pretty dispositive towards not doing it.

00:51:30.940 But again, we'll have that conversation in a few years when we've actually done a good job here and can have that conversation with, I think, a little bit more of, first of all, it's there staring you in the face.

00:51:42.620 It's not three years in the future.

00:51:44.180 It's now, but also just where we have a little bit more sense of what is good for the kids.

00:51:50.000 I mean, my first obligation, as much as I love the American people, it's to my wife and my kids.

00:51:53.800 And we've got to keep them happy.

00:51:55.200 And so far, so good.

00:51:57.120 I'm going to wrap it up because I know you've got to go.

00:51:58.740 But how are you going to prepare for this fourth baby?

00:52:04.400 I don't, I mean, at this point, we're getting so many kids that they just kind of take care of themselves.

00:52:09.280 So I guess we'll train the others to change diapers and do a bottle.

00:52:12.700 I mean, I don't know.

00:52:13.600 It's going to be chaotic.

00:52:14.980 The thing is, we should not have this conversation.

00:52:17.700 There are certainly sacrifices that come along with this life, but there are also a lot of good things.

00:52:23.060 Like we live in this beautiful, very protected mansion that the American people have gifted us.

00:52:29.100 So thank you.

00:52:29.660 You're a taxpayer.

00:52:30.380 Thank you for that.

00:52:30.960 You know, we also, most of our meals are prepared for us.

00:52:34.600 So we don't have to worry as much about cooking.

00:52:37.160 We did when baby number three came along.

00:52:39.560 So there are a lot of things that in some ways make having a baby easier.

00:52:43.180 You don't have to worry about TSA lines when you're the vice president.

00:52:45.560 Air Force Two makes transportation pretty easy.

00:52:47.580 Yeah.

00:52:47.740 So there are all these weird little ways where I actually think it'll be a little bit easier.

00:52:51.560 It'll obviously be harder in some ways.

00:52:53.220 But I just, my attitude towards kids, I remember after we had Ewan, our oldest, I was like, what the hell have we gotten ourselves into?

00:53:02.180 No more kids.

00:53:03.820 And then we had a second, then we had a third.

00:53:06.120 And now both of us are just like, what's one more?

00:53:08.340 Whatever.

00:53:08.640 I'll share with the audience, I don't think you'll mind, that we were with you guys personally at one point and your kids were outside and you just sort of called from afar, please don't create any ruination and despair.

00:53:23.100 I loved it.

00:53:24.000 It actually made me think, Mr. Vice President, what do you think Mamaw would think of all this?

00:53:28.700 Oh, man.

00:53:29.580 I don't know.

00:53:30.460 I think she would.

00:53:32.460 I ask myself that question a lot.

00:53:35.000 I think she'd be amazed by it.

00:53:36.520 And, you know, she was fundamentally just such a patriotic person.

00:53:39.440 I think she'd be in this room right now looking up at the molding and the beautiful imagery and just saying, what a blessing it is to be here.

00:53:46.540 But I think the thing that she would just most like about our life is the kids.

00:53:51.040 Mamaw always just loved kids.

00:53:52.460 She loved grandbabies.

00:53:54.100 And she loved the weird little things that they would say.

00:53:57.120 She loved how, you know, they were at one minute super caring and affectionate and at the other minute completely rebellious.

00:54:03.260 And I think that's what, you know, as much as she'd be impressed by the pomp and the circumstance of the professional role, if Mamaw were alive right now, she'd probably be living with us.

00:54:13.260 And she'd be much more worried about the kids than anything I was doing at the White House.

00:54:16.460 I feel like she could really.

00:54:17.420 You know how Marco Rubio's got every role in the administration?

00:54:19.920 I feel like she could have done them.

00:54:21.320 She could have taken any one of those off of his hands.

00:54:23.340 We would have been in very good hands.

00:54:24.660 Oh, that's right.

00:54:25.160 And that's another thing that will make the new baby much easier is Marco has agreed to be nanny to our fourth kid.

00:54:31.500 So, you know, what's another job?

00:54:32.720 He can do it.

00:54:33.540 All right, we've got to go.

00:54:34.440 I forgot to ask you quickly, if you'll allow me.

00:54:37.000 Please.

00:54:38.460 Savannah Guthrie is in the midst of a national crisis right now.

00:54:42.360 It sounds very sad.

00:54:43.860 It looks awful.

00:54:44.820 It looks awful.

00:54:45.540 Just wanted to give you the chance to comment on it because the White House sent out a tweet yesterday asking people to call in if they have any information.

00:54:51.300 Well, obviously thinking about her and praying for her, and I believe it's her mother-in-law.

00:54:56.080 Is that right?

00:54:56.600 It's her mom.

00:54:57.120 It's her mom.

00:54:57.820 Her mom is missing.

00:54:58.640 So praying for her mom, and the whole situation just seems, you know, very scary.

00:55:03.380 So what we've done at the White House is basically offered every resource that we can to try to help.

00:55:08.800 And, you know, what can you do but help where we can and pray that it all turns out right.

00:55:14.340 But certainly knows, I hope she knows we're all thinking about her at the White House because sort of the worst,

00:55:18.840 one of the worst situations you can imagine personally.

00:55:21.820 So we'll just keep tabs of it, keep on helping out where we can, and hope that it goes okay.

00:55:26.420 We're praying for her.

00:55:27.120 We're praying for you every day.

00:55:28.580 I appreciate it.

00:55:29.040 Thank you for the sacrifice that I know it takes to do this job.

00:55:31.720 Good to see you, Megan.

00:55:32.320 Yeah, you too.

00:55:33.400 Thanks.

00:55:34.020 All the best.

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00:57:38.380 Welcome back to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:57:40.140 And now we shift our attention to news of the day and the latest in the search for Nancy

00:57:46.040 Guthrie, the missing mom of Savannah Guthrie, NBC News host.

00:57:51.880 Ashley Banfield, who hosts her own podcast called Drop Dead Serious, is breaking exclusives

00:57:57.920 on this case like nobody's business.

00:58:00.260 And yesterday, she had quite a doozy.

00:58:04.700 I'm going to bring her on.

00:58:05.780 She's going to explain what she learned.

00:58:08.300 But she reported exclusively that they actually do have a potential suspect in the case.

00:58:13.900 And the identity is rather shocking.

00:58:18.480 I'm going to bring her in now.

00:58:19.460 Ashley Banfield, thank you so much for joining us.

00:58:21.940 So tell us what your, you say, very reliable law enforcement source told you about a possible

00:58:27.540 suspect in the case.

00:58:28.500 Sure.

00:58:29.340 So after almost four decades in this business, I have collected a few friends at the FBI

00:58:33.780 and in local law enforcement all over the country.

00:58:36.160 And the source that I have is impeccable.

00:58:39.260 And he said that not only were the cameras smashed, plural, plural cameras smashed, so

00:58:45.340 that the suspect likely knew about the locations of them, but that the car belonging to the

00:58:52.500 sister of Savannah Guthrie, Annie Guthrie, was towed, impounded, and taken into evidence.

00:58:59.640 And that, and this is the wording.

00:59:02.100 It's very important.

00:59:02.780 The wording is very important.

00:59:03.880 He said, they now believe that son-in-law may be the prime suspect.

00:59:09.860 Those are the words.

00:59:10.620 Son-in-law may be the prime suspect at this point.

00:59:14.100 And I'm very mindful.

00:59:16.180 I covered the Elizabeth Smart case.

00:59:17.560 I was out in Salt Lake City for five weeks while Elizabeth Smart had vanished.

00:59:21.800 And I recall specifically a lot of language saying Ed Smart is likely the prime suspect

00:59:27.840 here.

00:59:28.900 And so you've got to be really mindful that, as you know, Megan, you're a lawyer.

00:59:33.360 Police investigations start in the middle of the circle, and they go out in concentric

00:59:37.240 circles in terms of investigating family members, right?

00:59:41.080 You start in the middle of the family.

00:59:42.980 You investigate out from there.

00:59:44.260 Then you go to contractors and friends and workers and everybody else who's had some

00:59:47.320 contact.

00:59:47.840 And then there's the randoms.

00:59:49.060 So it is not surprising that someone in the family is being looked at.

00:59:52.540 That language, to me, was pretty strident, though.

00:59:55.360 It's surprising to me because there was forced entry.

01:00:00.720 And from the beginning, I thought, well, they must have ruled out the family pretty quickly

01:00:04.900 if this is a case of forced entry, because the family wouldn't need to do that.

01:00:08.900 The family would presumably have a key.

01:00:11.000 And if they didn't have a key and they wanted to get in, they'd just knock on the door and

01:00:14.460 Nancy Guthrie would open it.

01:00:17.480 So this is super interesting.

01:00:19.160 And I had a long conversation with my former colleague, Brian Enten, about this, because

01:00:22.980 Brian identified blood drops at the front door, right?

01:00:26.080 And he's shown the video.

01:00:27.440 It's pretty impressive.

01:00:29.540 However, my source says the back door is wide open.

01:00:33.640 Back door, left wide open.

01:00:35.120 That's what my source said.

01:00:36.040 I had a, Megan, half hour conversation two days ago.

01:00:41.920 I watched it.

01:00:42.720 Sheriff, yeah.

01:00:43.500 And I specifically said, so are you telling me, when you said that she did not walk out

01:00:48.500 of that house on her own, I said, are you telling me that she might have been carried

01:00:52.800 out of that house?

01:00:54.540 And I used the word over the threshold of the front door.

01:00:57.580 And he said, I didn't say front door.

01:00:59.680 But he didn't say, he didn't say no carried.

01:01:01.880 But when he said, I didn't say no to the front door.

01:01:04.220 And then, you know, the next day I'm getting information about the back door.

01:01:07.960 It's pretty safe to say, well, that makes perfect sense.

01:01:11.460 However, why is there blood at the front door?

01:01:14.000 And Brian Enten said he couldn't find the trail continuing past to the walkway that would

01:01:18.960 take you to the driveway.

01:01:19.620 Now it is, it is, you know, gravel, a little harder maybe to see any blood, but not impossible.

01:01:25.280 So I'm trying to go through that.

01:01:26.400 But couldn't they have gotten her in the car, Ashley?

01:01:27.940 I mean, like, I'm picturing a scenario where couldn't all those facts be consistent with

01:01:31.600 they came in through the back door, then they got her, then they brought her out the front

01:01:35.820 door after injuring her.

01:01:37.420 Could.

01:01:37.720 Then the blood trail continued just to the driveway.

01:01:41.500 Well, it didn't.

01:01:41.920 Where they then put her in a car.

01:01:43.280 That's the problem.

01:01:44.180 It ended well prior to the driveway?

01:01:46.160 Yeah.

01:01:46.560 The blood trail is just at the front door on those tiles.

01:01:49.380 Then the gravel starts right away, and it's a walkway to the driveway.

01:01:52.520 And it's not close.

01:01:53.480 I mean, it's a bit of a ways.

01:01:54.900 Nancy Guthrie can't walk 50 feet, 50 yards, pardon me.

01:01:58.440 Nancy Guthrie can't walk 50 yards on her own.

01:02:00.680 So she would need assistance.

01:02:02.220 And if you're bleeding and you've been in, you know, some sort of a melee, that would

01:02:06.380 be even less.

01:02:07.660 So I was going through the scenarios in my mind.

01:02:09.760 Okay.

01:02:10.020 Maybe the front door camera is smashed, and the doorbell is rung to get Mrs. Guthrie

01:02:19.160 downstairs, because that would be difficult in the middle of the night.

01:02:22.140 It would get her down those stairs.

01:02:24.420 So the confrontation might happen at the front door, right there, at the tiles.

01:02:28.800 There's a struggle.

01:02:29.940 And then, because the car is not parked right out front where all that could be visible,

01:02:33.720 potentially.

01:02:34.320 Maybe the car is around the back, and that's why they go out the back door.

01:02:39.320 And because you're now struggling.

01:02:41.140 I have no idea.

01:02:42.020 Could a car be parked in the back?

01:02:43.380 I don't know.

01:02:44.260 Because I've been trying to see with drone video whether the car could get out into a

01:02:47.900 darker spot or maybe out of camera view, because the smashing has to happen.

01:02:51.860 But I was told that the cameras were smashed, and plural.

01:02:55.140 So if there's a camera in the back, camera in the front, smashed.

01:02:58.400 And then, of course, Brian Enten noticed it and asked the sheriff, did you take them?

01:03:02.500 Or do you think the guy or the suspect took them?

01:03:05.360 And the sheriff had a funny answer.

01:03:06.900 He said, yes, I noticed that, too.

01:03:07.960 We're looking into it.

01:03:09.780 Yes.

01:03:10.280 So what he saw, what Brian Enten saw was, like, the remnants of a Nest camera, not even

01:03:16.980 the Nest camera, right?

01:03:18.160 Like, it was clear to him that they had been removed, which is not the same thing as destroyed.

01:03:22.460 The sheriff is saying that they were destroyed right before we got to them.

01:03:27.200 So he made it sound like they were destroyed by the perpetrator here, by the bad guy.

01:03:31.500 So the sheriff didn't say on the news conference that the cameras were destroyed.

01:03:36.440 Brian Enten shot that video and asked, the cameras are missing.

01:03:41.600 Did law enforcement take them, or did the perpetrator take them?

01:03:45.120 And the response from the sheriff was, yes, we noticed that, too.

01:03:48.240 We're looking into it.

01:03:49.140 And so, look, I can tell you, you know this, Pima County, there's not a lot of crime there.

01:03:55.720 I'm trying to think of the last major thing that happened.

01:03:58.140 I think it was Gabby Giffords being shot there, what, 15 years ago, 20 years ago?

01:04:02.360 And so I think he's working in real time, you know, and trying to protect his investigation,

01:04:08.640 keep the integrity and answer real questions he wasn't expecting, maybe, and couching,

01:04:12.820 you know, his verbiage as best he can.

01:04:15.280 But he didn't say, oh, we don't know that we took the cameras, or no, there never was

01:04:20.540 a camera there.

01:04:21.100 He said, yes, we noticed that, too, and we're investigating that.

01:04:23.380 We've got them.

01:04:23.800 It's your reporting that has added that they were destroyed.

01:04:28.180 And multiple.

01:04:30.460 I don't know the location of the other one.

01:04:32.760 My guessing, and it's just me, would be backdoor.

01:04:35.220 But my source also said, and this is musings, not evidence or information, who takes an 84-year-old

01:04:45.720 woman who can't walk well on her own?

01:04:48.180 It is a burden.

01:04:49.720 It is a troublesome endeavor.

01:04:53.240 It makes you more susceptible to being caught.

01:04:55.940 You now have a problem on your hands.

01:04:58.020 What are you going to do with this person without anybody seeing?

01:05:01.920 And it stands to reason.

01:05:02.920 It's very unusual for some random burglar to take the person if something happens.

01:05:09.220 It's not a random burglar.

01:05:10.380 No, I agree.

01:05:10.940 So it's either somebody who's kidnapping her and wants money for a ransom, or is kidnapping

01:05:16.300 her as a revenge because they dislike her, or maybe Savannah or another family member.

01:05:22.320 Or it could have been a murder.

01:05:24.020 Personal musings again?

01:05:24.960 It could have been a murder that they were then removing the body from the crime scene.

01:05:29.080 That's even worse, because again, now it's on your hands to get rid of the body and

01:05:32.660 the evidence is now in your car and all the rest.

01:05:34.560 It's not that it hasn't happened.

01:05:35.540 It has.

01:05:36.000 It's more likely that a random person would leave that body in the house and get a clean

01:05:40.860 getaway with no DNA evidence in the car if that's possible.

01:05:43.780 But the other random musings was that something like this, and again, these are the random

01:05:51.720 musings.

01:05:52.140 This is not evidence.

01:05:53.620 This kind of a crime typically requires a benefit.

01:05:58.060 And like you mentioned, the ransom notes, musings are baloney.

01:06:04.160 That, you know, you don't email a ransom note to TMZ or a local station.

01:06:08.680 It's not normal.

01:06:09.780 It's not usual.

01:06:10.320 And that time frame as well.

01:06:12.740 Ransom notes usually come pretty quickly.

01:06:14.820 This was 72 hours later.

01:06:17.280 So, and look, I can't wait for that investigation to yield some idiot that thought that they were

01:06:22.740 going to get some Bitcoin out of a tragic situation.

01:06:25.480 It makes me, they're just, they're just festering parasites when they do this.

01:06:29.200 I mean, it does.

01:06:29.820 We still don't know, though, whether Savannah Guthrie has received a ransom demand or law

01:06:35.000 enforcement has, because they've been very cagey about the ransom question.

01:06:39.380 The first day he was asked, which was Monday, Sheriff Nanos said, no, I haven't heard anything

01:06:47.400 like that.

01:06:48.020 And he was kind of forthcoming.

01:06:49.220 And then, as you know, yesterday, Tuesday, he was much more tight-lipped.

01:06:53.300 He wasn't as forthcoming with answers.

01:06:54.880 And the question of whether a ransom note had been introduced seemed more ambiguous

01:06:59.140 on day two than it did on day one.

01:07:01.460 You know, it's funny.

01:07:02.080 I'm looking back at my notes from my conversation.

01:07:04.980 I said, has there been a, and this was the Monday, as you said, has there been any demand

01:07:10.100 for ransom?

01:07:10.620 And he said, we don't know.

01:07:11.860 He said to me, we don't know.

01:07:13.480 Those are the words.

01:07:14.420 However, this came out yesterday.

01:07:16.140 You probably saw it.

01:07:17.000 This was the QR code.

01:07:18.700 And the statement from Chris Nanos, the sheriff, saying, we are aware of reports circulating

01:07:22.780 about possible ransom notes, parentheses, S, right?

01:07:26.340 Note, parentheses, S, regarding the investigation into Nancy Guthrie.

01:07:30.020 We're taking all tips and leads very seriously.

01:07:31.760 And anything that comes in goes directly to our detectives who are coordinating with

01:07:34.240 the FBI.

01:07:34.900 We encourage anybody to use this QR code.

01:07:36.880 So I think, and also our friend Harvey Levin at TMZ broke it yesterday.

01:07:42.340 They got the email yesterday.

01:07:43.780 So I don't think Harvey had it on Monday.

01:07:45.500 And I would highly doubt that the local TV station had it Monday, didn't report it till

01:07:49.460 Tuesday.

01:07:50.560 All right.

01:07:51.140 But that's sort of a red herring, we think, on the side.

01:07:53.960 But the news about Savannah's brother-in-law is huge.

01:08:01.100 Look, I have to be honest.

01:08:02.240 A lot of people initially thought, should we be looking at the family?

01:08:06.500 Because just that's 90% of the time.

01:08:10.020 Yeah, exactly.

01:08:10.780 That's who it is.

01:08:11.640 Usually, crime is not committed by some random person coming into a home.

01:08:15.380 And kidnapping an 84-year-old.

01:08:16.940 Usually, it's a tragedy that somebody may be terrible.

01:08:18.440 Knows where both cameras are.

01:08:20.540 Yeah, exactly.

01:08:21.580 Knows where both cameras are, front and back.

01:08:24.020 And possibly manages to get her to open the door or somehow maybe has a relationship with

01:08:29.180 her.

01:08:30.120 But, of course, the thought of, Savannah's not on the table.

01:08:33.300 She was in New York.

01:08:34.120 She had to fly out there after this all happened.

01:08:36.940 The sister, I mean, it just seems beyond possibility that the sister had something to do

01:08:42.560 with it.

01:08:42.800 But now we're talking about the sister's husband.

01:08:44.100 Spidey senses, Megan, with all your experience in being a lawyer and being in the media,

01:08:52.000 do you think that they would seize the vehicle of Savannah Guthrie's sister and impound it,

01:08:59.660 tow it, not ask for it, come in, we want to take a look, tow it, impound it?

01:09:04.640 The words that were used are, it is in evidence.

01:09:07.260 If they didn't have a little stronger feeling about this, because that sends a massive message

01:09:12.540 early in the investigation.

01:09:13.980 If you are taking the daughter of the victim's car, and a famous daughter's sister, that was

01:09:21.660 another thing that I just, I'm just putting a lot of pieces together.

01:09:24.600 No, you're right.

01:09:25.740 And the other thing the audience should know, they probably already do know, is you're not

01:09:30.180 some whack reporter, like this is your beat, you've been covering crime for 20 years, you're

01:09:36.060 very solid, your reporting standards.

01:09:37.720 38, but who's counting?

01:09:40.560 38 years this year.

01:09:41.800 Reporting for many, many years, but like your reporting standards are very high.

01:09:44.320 So you understand very well the gravity of reporting something like this.

01:09:49.020 This is not just some slapdash operation.

01:09:51.320 And you trust this source that told you right now he's the prime.

01:09:55.280 High level.

01:09:56.040 Yeah.

01:09:56.240 High level.

01:09:57.260 So no, you're right.

01:09:58.180 They wouldn't.

01:09:58.820 And when was it that they seized the car?

01:10:01.740 Why was it they seized the car?

01:10:03.060 When?

01:10:03.440 When?

01:10:03.640 Uh, I don't know the answer to that, but I do know that the FBI, according to Brian

01:10:07.700 Enten, was over at, um, Annie Guthrie's house yesterday for several hours.

01:10:13.620 Is Savannah staying at Annie Guthrie's?

01:10:16.540 I have heard that reporting.

01:10:17.720 Nancy Lew at News Nation, uh, reported that, that Savannah was staying there and somebody

01:10:22.620 else told me today, I think Savannah's staying there.

01:10:24.640 I don't have that myself.

01:10:25.880 Mm-hmm.

01:10:26.800 I mean, it's, it, one does wonder why Savannah hasn't said anything.

01:10:31.720 I do, like, I, if this were my sibling and my sibling were, I believed, wrongly accused,

01:10:37.320 I might say something.

01:10:38.380 I, I mean, I might come out and say something.

01:10:40.060 Go, go, go back two days ago.

01:10:41.680 Um, I would never walk in Savannah shoes.

01:10:44.200 My heart has been absolutely breaking for Savannah in all of this, in so many ways, right

01:10:49.700 from the get-go.

01:10:50.340 I think everyone's has.

01:10:51.180 But I don't know that I would say something publicly if this was my mom.

01:10:55.080 I have an 87-year-old mom.

01:10:56.260 This is, this is, you know.

01:10:56.780 No, no, no, but if, but if your sibling now were, were offered up.

01:10:59.920 Before, but even before, I'm, I'm going to take you in stages.

01:11:02.800 So, you give a statement to NBC early saying, we're worried and we're working with law enforcement.

01:11:08.100 Then you give a statement the next day saying, please pray.

01:11:11.980 Um, again, I don't know that I would make a public statement or come out, but if my mom

01:11:15.920 was missing, I think I would.

01:11:18.140 I think I would be everywhere saying, please, if you've seen anything, help me, help me.

01:11:22.780 If you've seen a car, if you've seen anything, this is where we lived.

01:11:25.400 You would make, you would make it such a bigger media event and so many more eyeballs and

01:11:32.400 crowdsourcing is one of the best ways to solve crimes.

01:11:34.520 It's how Gabby Petito's body was found, for God's sake.

01:11:36.760 So if there were some concerns, I could understand silence, but I can also understand silence out

01:11:43.820 of just utter grief.

01:11:45.500 Mm-hmm.

01:11:46.040 I know me too.

01:11:46.840 I'm just picturing if Savannah's at her sister Annie's house yesterday and Annie's husband

01:11:52.360 is there, Tommaso, um, and the sheriff shows up, the FBI shows up and seizes his vehicle.

01:11:59.720 Like, that's an OMG moment.

01:12:03.040 Um, they'd have to have a warrant.

01:12:04.900 Uh, they, obviously they had to go into court and show that there was probable cause to get

01:12:09.760 that warrant.

01:12:10.260 What was in that probable cause affidavit from the law enforcement officer that suggested

01:12:14.920 they had the right to seize his car.

01:12:16.640 We know that her car leave, right?

01:12:19.120 That, oh, Annie's car.

01:12:20.560 Right.

01:12:20.720 But she's married to him.

01:12:21.660 So it's six, one way, but was it Annie or was it Tommaso or was it both?

01:12:27.140 Do we know Ashley that, that dropped off the mother Nancy on Saturday night?

01:12:32.760 I believe it was a church mahjong event and they brought him, they brought her home.

01:12:37.240 Well, I've heard it both ways.

01:12:39.760 I have heard Annie dropped her off and then I've heard that Annie and her husband dropped

01:12:45.360 her off.

01:12:45.660 And I've heard that both ways multiple times from the sheriff himself in, uh, news conferences

01:12:50.820 too.

01:12:51.100 So it is a little bit unclear and I don't know if they're unclear.

01:12:53.860 Uh, and quite frankly, I don't know if this many hour meeting over at Annie's house yesterday

01:13:00.280 where the FBI was there, um, yielded a conversation because most people would say, I think I need

01:13:07.140 a lawyer here.

01:13:08.080 Uh, this sounds weird.

01:13:09.480 At least most people should say, everybody should say, I need a lawyer before I say hello.

01:13:14.820 Um, and that's innocent people.

01:13:16.280 That's to protect the innocent.

01:13:17.960 Let's be really clear.

01:13:19.080 I'm always very mindful.

01:13:20.520 It's not about guilty people trying to cover up, although often it is.

01:13:23.720 Um, but innocent people need to protect the way their words can also be used against them

01:13:28.920 even when they don't mean it a certain way.

01:13:30.760 I shot the sheriff.

01:13:32.400 Well, just put that in writing.

01:13:33.740 It now says, I shot the sheriff.

01:13:34.700 You don't hear the inflection.

01:13:36.160 Yep.

01:13:37.440 So, okay.

01:13:38.300 So we know that they must've gotten a probable cause affidavit to go in there and seize

01:13:42.220 the car, which they did, Annie's car.

01:13:44.500 And now why do we believe, is it just from the source that the focus is on Annie's husband,

01:13:50.100 whose name is Tommaso Sioni?

01:13:52.400 He, I believe he's a native from Italy.

01:13:56.260 Is it?

01:13:56.460 Yes.

01:13:56.660 He's Italian born and he's 50 years old, but he's been married to Savannah's sister, um,

01:14:03.740 for I guess quite some time.

01:14:05.580 He's 50 years old.

01:14:06.340 He's from Tucson now.

01:14:07.360 I mean, he's been living in Tucson.

01:14:08.660 Do we know anything more about him?

01:14:11.160 Let me tell you about this strange thing that we found.

01:14:13.480 He's got a bio that appears on a website for the Tapperulian Cultural Association.

01:14:21.160 That's a nonprofit, uh, based in Cremona, Italy.

01:14:24.300 It's focused on, uh, promoting contemporary artists.

01:14:26.620 It's about a, started in 2004.

01:14:29.480 And this is what he quotes in his bio on that website.

01:14:32.620 I was born in San Giovanni, Valdarno on June 18th, 1975.

01:14:38.680 Since 2006, I have lived in Tucson, Arizona.

01:14:41.440 I write when I have the chance.

01:14:43.040 I study lizards.

01:14:44.080 I play the electric bass.

01:14:45.440 I make homemade pasta.

01:14:47.340 LinkedIn has him as a teacher at Basis Oro Valley School from 2007 to today.

01:14:53.720 Uh, they say he's a primary instructor for sixth grade science and AP biology.

01:14:57.560 And Reverb Nation, which is a website, um, based on music, says he put out an album with

01:15:04.720 a three-man music group called Early Black.

01:15:07.060 That music's still out there.

01:15:08.400 But again, I've seen some pictures when he's with the three together, two, three guys.

01:15:13.180 I don't know if that's the band.

01:15:14.040 It kind of looks like a band picture.

01:15:15.620 But yeah, apparently he's this bass player, electric bass, who's in a band called Early Black.

01:15:20.920 Do we know how long they've been married?

01:15:22.920 I don't know that.

01:15:24.040 No.

01:15:24.400 Isn't she an older sister to Savannah or no?

01:15:26.680 No.

01:15:27.240 I'm not sure.

01:15:28.320 I think Savannah's my age exactly.

01:15:29.820 I think she's...

01:15:30.120 She's a little younger than me.

01:15:31.320 If I'm 50, I think she's like 56, 55, something like that.

01:15:34.080 Well, I'm 55.

01:15:35.380 Oh my God.

01:15:36.020 When did that happen?

01:15:36.980 So I think she's my age.

01:15:38.800 Oh, God, right?

01:15:38.880 I think she...

01:15:39.420 Look at this.

01:15:40.080 This is crazy.

01:15:41.960 I'm pretty sure she's my age exactly.

01:15:43.880 We have...

01:15:44.240 Savannah and I actually have a lot in common.

01:15:45.640 It's kind of eerie.

01:15:47.480 We worked at Court TV together.

01:15:49.360 I know.

01:15:50.160 I know.

01:15:50.460 I remember being in the bathroom, the ladies' room at Court TV, and Court TV was getting shut down.

01:15:55.620 They were very kind to us.

01:15:56.700 They gave us nine months to find other jobs, and Savannah got a contact over at NBC, and

01:16:01.060 I said, well, you've got to call my friend so-and-so, and you're getting that job.

01:16:05.040 You're getting that job, girl.

01:16:06.220 And then she said to me later, I got the interview, and I got the job.

01:16:10.220 I'm going to work at MSNBC.

01:16:11.440 And I said, oh, no, you're going to host the Today Show.

01:16:14.500 Mark my word.

01:16:15.420 And we always talk about that.

01:16:16.860 Whenever I talk to her, I'm like, yeah, don't ever question me again, sister, especially in the ladies' room.

01:16:20.900 Well, it's funny, because I'm down here in D.C. today to interview the vice president.

01:16:24.660 They allowed us to do our second hour from his ceremonial office here.

01:16:30.340 It's beautiful.

01:16:31.220 Nice.

01:16:31.480 When I first met Savannah Guthrie, it was at the Supreme Court, because she was doing high court coverage for NBC, and I was doing it for Fox, or she was an MS at the time.

01:16:41.200 And now, all these years later, it's very strange.

01:16:43.220 I was just back down here covering the Supreme Court for the big argument on boys and girls sports two weeks ago, and here I am covering this terrible tragedy for her.

01:16:50.920 And it's like, at this point, Ashley, it's like, I don't know if there can be a good outcome.

01:16:55.140 If they can find Nancy Guthrie and she's fine, that's it.

01:16:59.280 And by the way, we do have a soundbite on that.

01:17:01.960 The sheriff says he's holding out hope that that could still happen.

01:17:06.140 This is played on the Today Show this morning.

01:17:08.780 Here's Sot Zero.

01:17:11.100 This morning, the desperate search for 84-year-old Nancy Guthrie now entering its fourth day, with the Pima County sheriff saying he's holding out hope Savannah's mom is alive.

01:17:20.260 We have nothing else to go on but the belief that she is here, she's present, she's alive, and we want to save her.

01:17:28.180 NBC News is aware of two reports of ransom notes sent to news organizations that reference Nancy Guthrie.

01:17:34.560 NBC News has not seen those notes, and so far, no law enforcement agency has substantiated them.

01:17:40.340 The Pima County sheriff's office saying it's also aware of the reports, adding, we are taking all tips and leads very seriously.

01:17:46.500 The leads we've got coming in are critical to us.

01:17:49.960 They're valuable, and we're sharing those with the FBI and others.

01:17:55.280 FBI agents are now working closely with local authorities.

01:17:58.760 The sheriff's department says Guthrie had several cameras at her home, but it's still unclear if there's any footage from the overnight hours when she was believed to be abducted.

01:18:06.760 They're also still trying to find any usable video from neighbors' homes.

01:18:10.400 And he seemed to speak to Sheriff Chris Nonos whether they did find any usable video from Nancy's home or elsewhere.

01:18:24.500 In a way, again, that was cryptic.

01:18:25.860 He's not the most clear on his communications.

01:18:27.980 This is CBS Morning.

01:18:29.920 Watch this here in Sot 3.

01:18:31.680 The sheriff also says surveillance video from Guthrie's home has led them nowhere so far.

01:18:37.820 None of the camera images have revealed to us anything of substantive nature.

01:18:42.460 Really?

01:18:42.920 Anything?

01:18:43.680 No.

01:18:43.960 It only goes so far back.

01:18:45.920 And so we're giving it to those camera makers and saying, can you do something more with this?

01:18:50.260 I think I know what it means.

01:18:52.680 What does that mean?

01:18:53.480 Yeah, please tell me.

01:18:54.720 So, and I'm not a tech guru, but I know about Nest cams.

01:18:57.780 And my source said they were Nest, specifically.

01:19:00.860 Said they were smashed and said they were Nest.

01:19:03.460 And so my conversation on Monday with Sheriff Nonos was that they are working with the tech companies to get what's in the cloud, but that there were warrant issues.

01:19:11.700 And it was taking a long time and he was very frustrated working with the companies.

01:19:14.780 He thought he'd have it back sooner.

01:19:16.440 And by Monday night, he was annoyed that he didn't have it.

01:19:19.720 Yesterday in the news conference, he seemed still to be frustrated waiting on these images.

01:19:24.320 And I believe that's because perhaps the device itself may hold maybe just the last hour and they're looking for the history.

01:19:34.940 And for that, maybe the family doesn't have the password, whatever it is to get in.

01:19:39.080 That's my guess.

01:19:40.500 But the fact that they know they're smashed would at least give you the last image of it being smashed.

01:19:46.540 That doesn't mean it was smashed from the front.

01:19:48.180 Or maybe someone came in the back door and smashed that front camera from inside.

01:19:53.920 So then you don't see who's doing it.

01:19:55.540 Or they were completely draped in black because everybody knows.

01:19:58.760 Porch pirates know to drape themselves now because of cameras that can catch you coming up to them.

01:20:03.780 Smashing them doesn't reverse what you've already seen.

01:20:06.560 That's what I was thinking about that.

01:20:08.140 But the other thing that I think is super key, and my source said to me specifically, 2 a.m. is the focus.

01:20:18.440 And that's because of the pacemaker separation.

01:20:20.560 The sheriff wouldn't go that far.

01:20:21.900 He kept saying, well, we're still leaving it open, a wide window.

01:20:24.080 I'm not going to narrow that window down for the public here.

01:20:25.920 But my source said, oh, no, it is the separation of the pacemaker from the Apple devices that we believe is the moment she went out that doorway and was spirited away.

01:20:35.840 Yes.

01:20:36.420 I mean, I think the rest of us had gleaned that, even though the sheriff wouldn't say it explicitly.

01:20:39.620 But now your source is saying yes.

01:20:41.020 And so can you just reiterate, was there any sort of caution given to you about saying Savannah's brother-in-law is or may be the prime suspect?

01:20:52.140 Like, is that as good as saying, you know, Savannah may be, I may be, you may be.

01:20:57.120 I mean, what's the worth of it?

01:21:00.060 Well, I want to tell you one other thing he told me because there were some reports that were pulled back.

01:21:05.300 Somebody reported, I think, on Monday that Mrs. Guthrie was dragged from her bed.

01:21:09.140 And the sheriff came out and said.

01:21:10.880 Well, the sheriff said that.

01:21:11.420 The sheriff said that.

01:21:12.420 He said, I didn't want to take literally.

01:21:14.220 Yeah.

01:21:14.580 And he said, I didn't mean to be literally.

01:21:16.440 And then he walked back that.

01:21:17.860 And I couldn't get him to pinpoint an epicenter of the crime scene.

01:21:20.960 Is it in the bedroom?

01:21:21.740 Is it in the living room?

01:21:22.500 Is it in the kitchen?

01:21:23.060 Is it the front door?

01:21:23.560 I couldn't get him to pinpoint that.

01:21:24.960 He also wouldn't, on Monday when I did the interview, he would not confirm that there was blood inside the house.

01:21:32.140 But my source has confirmed there was blood inside the house.

01:21:34.980 Brian Anton has confirmed that there's outside.

01:21:37.100 My source said outside as well, but we saw the pictures.

01:21:40.600 So there's blood inside the house and there's blood outside the house.

01:21:43.940 And I want to be so careful with this because on my podcast, I said it over and over.

01:21:49.260 Watch yourself.

01:21:50.540 This is the language that's used.

01:21:52.560 Son-in-law may be prime suspect now.

01:21:55.680 Meaning that's where the focus is going.

01:21:58.180 This is where they're thinking.

01:21:59.680 But is he going to be named?

01:22:01.340 Is he going to be released?

01:22:02.260 Is he going to be arrested?

01:22:03.700 He did not go that far.

01:22:04.980 But he said, without question, when he towed the daughter's car, impounded it, put it in evidence, son-in-law may be prime suspect now.

01:22:11.820 And that's the language.

01:22:13.140 Did he say anything about, do we know if this man has a criminal history or anything about, you know, why?

01:22:18.340 Was there any color as to why?

01:22:21.080 No.

01:22:21.480 The only color I surmise is because they've gone to the point where they've towed the vehicle of somebody very prominent or connected to somebody very prominent in a very prominent, widely viewed case.

01:22:32.680 I think you've, I'm trying to figure out, look, yes, you've got to get a warrant if you're going to tow it against their will.

01:22:39.560 Would they have agreed?

01:22:41.500 Would they have said, sure, my God, take the car?

01:22:43.520 Of course.

01:22:44.180 We have nothing to hide.

01:22:45.160 And they just towed it rather than having the integrity of it messed up with someone driving it, you know?

01:22:52.580 Yes, I guess.

01:22:53.380 I mean, that is certainly what you would do.

01:22:54.760 But it's been impounded, too.

01:22:57.180 Into evidence.

01:22:58.280 That's different.

01:22:59.400 Yeah.

01:23:00.140 It's not great.

01:23:00.980 Okay, last question, Ashley.

01:23:03.440 The sheriff, Chris Nanyos, the one that we've been discussing, actually issued a statement, apparently in response to your news, that reads as follows.

01:23:12.000 At this point, investigators have not identified a suspect or person of interest in this case.

01:23:17.780 Detectives continue to speak with anyone who may have had contact with Mrs. Guthrie.

01:23:22.940 Detectives are working closely with the Guthrie family.

01:23:25.260 While we appreciate the public's concern, the sharing of unverified accusations or false information is irresponsible and does not assist the investigation.

01:23:33.920 No suspect or person of interest has been identified at this time.

01:23:37.820 Which is not exactly a denial of what you reported, but seems aimed at you.

01:23:44.120 Your thoughts on it?

01:23:45.880 I've had it happen a million times.

01:23:47.520 And they don't want to release that publicly at this point.

01:23:51.140 They're not naming him publicly at this point.

01:23:54.420 That's how I look at that.

01:23:55.960 Listen, I said very carefully, may be prime suspect at this point.

01:24:00.580 I did not say they've got their suspect at this time.

01:24:03.460 That's not what my source said.

01:24:05.000 Source says that he may be the prime suspect at this time.

01:24:07.800 And I understand that.

01:24:09.800 I understand that they're doing their work and they want to probably keep him talking.

01:24:15.040 You know how it works.

01:24:16.360 The minute somebody stops talking and they get a lawyer, it's harder.

01:24:20.820 The work is a little bit harder.

01:24:21.720 But it is odd as well.

01:24:24.480 And I know you probably picked up on this.

01:24:27.700 The answer to the question, is there danger to the community?

01:24:31.420 I remember that with Koberger.

01:24:32.660 No, nothing out there, nothing to see here.

01:24:34.500 Well, yes, there was.

01:24:35.660 A maniacal, random murderer who slaughtered four children using a knife, K-Bar knife, was out there for over five, six weeks.

01:24:44.380 And so to say we don't get, and this is how the answer was from the Pima County Sheriff's Office, to say that we don't have somebody out there, you know, kidnapping 84-year-old ladies every day.

01:24:58.800 And we don't believe that that's happening.

01:25:01.240 We don't think there's some sort of serial event happening.

01:25:04.140 But, you know, we want to figure out what's going on.

01:25:06.620 That was an odd answer as well.

01:25:08.160 I would have thought, we have no idea who did this, and this is terrible.

01:25:12.920 So, yes, whoever it is, is out there.

01:25:15.620 And until and unless we can figure out if it's targeted, I would say, lock your doors.

01:25:21.360 But there wasn't even a warning to anybody, lock your doors, you know?

01:25:25.000 Have you spoken to your source since the sheriff issued that statement?

01:25:30.600 Yes, I have.

01:25:31.700 And I got an interesting response, and that was, everybody's clamming up.

01:25:36.240 They're really worried about getting, you know, reverb from the sheriff.

01:25:41.840 But no wiggling from this source?

01:25:44.060 Nope, nothing changed.

01:25:47.360 Nothing changed.

01:25:48.460 And again, there's a lot of law enforcement communities down there right now.

01:25:51.160 There's Border Patrol.

01:25:52.220 There's FBI.

01:25:53.880 There's, of course, Pima County.

01:25:57.300 And probably neighboring counties have been alerted, right?

01:26:00.200 So there are a lot of people who have their hands in this pot.

01:26:04.080 My source is one of the highest.

01:26:06.500 Okay, very good.

01:26:07.920 Not a kid, not a young guy, not a gunslinger,

01:26:10.540 not somebody who's dipping in, dipping out of the office,

01:26:12.920 not someone in the administration, you know, administrative aspects of the offices that are involved.

01:26:19.760 Somebody who's actually very high.

01:26:23.200 Been around the block.

01:26:24.520 All right.

01:26:24.960 Well, as always, Ashley, you are ahead of everyone else on this crime story,

01:26:28.940 and we appreciate your great reporting.

01:26:30.400 I watched the interview the other night, even before you had this exclusive.

01:26:33.200 I thought you asked such good questions, and I learned a lot.

01:26:35.140 So thank you.

01:26:36.160 Well, we learn from the best.

01:26:37.320 You're a good colleague of mine, and I watch you all the time, and you know how much I admire you.

01:26:41.060 Oh, right back at you, sister.

01:26:42.420 We'll talk soon.

01:26:43.700 Okay, we're going to pause for a second.

01:26:45.380 We're going to bring in James Fitzgerald.

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01:26:49.600 He was on with us yesterday for reaction to this breaking news.

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01:29:55.280 Hey, everyone.

01:29:56.320 It's me, Megan Kelly.

01:29:57.400 I've got some exciting news.

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01:30:20.380 Only on the Megan Kelly Channel,

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01:30:23.540 and on the SiriusXM app.

01:30:29.520 Welcome back to the Megan Kelly Show.

01:30:31.120 We're joined now by James Fitzgerald.

01:30:33.600 He's a former FBI profiler.

01:30:35.460 He's worked on several huge cases

01:30:37.080 for the FBI.

01:30:37.800 He joined us yesterday

01:30:38.520 in a riveting exchange as well.

01:30:40.640 Jim, a lot has happened

01:30:41.480 in the past 24 hours

01:30:42.500 since we last spoke,

01:30:43.320 so we wanted to get your reaction

01:30:44.400 to all of it.

01:30:45.000 Let's just start

01:30:45.620 with the biggest piece.

01:30:47.540 Ashley Banfield reporting exclusively

01:30:49.500 based on what she describes

01:30:51.340 as a source high up

01:30:53.020 in law enforcement,

01:30:54.040 someone who's been around the block,

01:30:55.740 who says that

01:30:57.180 the brother-in-law

01:31:00.960 of Savannah Guthrie,

01:31:02.180 whose name is Tommaso Sione,

01:31:06.000 is, quote,

01:31:06.860 may be the prime suspect.

01:31:10.020 And with respect to Mr. Sione,

01:31:12.580 we have not had any interaction with him.

01:31:15.560 We have,

01:31:16.080 I'm assuming that he denies this vehemently.

01:31:19.120 We haven't heard from the family at all.

01:31:20.860 And he's not been expressly accused

01:31:23.280 as being the suspect,

01:31:24.760 but may be the prime suspect

01:31:26.720 was the wording

01:31:27.500 that Ashley Banfield's law enforcement source

01:31:30.100 gave her.

01:31:31.360 And on top of that,

01:31:33.120 law enforcement sources

01:31:34.100 told Ashley Banfield

01:31:35.500 that police have now towed

01:31:37.680 and impounded

01:31:38.980 the vehicle belonging

01:31:40.640 to his wife,

01:31:42.020 Annie Guthrie,

01:31:42.780 who is Savannah's sister

01:31:43.860 and the missing woman,

01:31:45.260 Nancy Guthrie's daughter.

01:31:48.580 Bashfield went on to report

01:31:49.540 that there was some connection

01:31:50.500 to Annie Guthrie's car

01:31:51.660 and to the son-in-law.

01:31:53.300 So that's, again,

01:31:54.740 take it for what it's worth

01:31:55.520 because it's one reporter

01:31:56.440 with one law enforcement source,

01:31:58.860 unconfirmed

01:31:59.540 and unresponded to

01:32:00.800 by the actual target of the report.

01:32:04.620 The sheriff's office has come out

01:32:06.180 just to reiterate to the audience

01:32:08.120 and tried to dismiss the report somewhat.

01:32:13.640 It was an express denial,

01:32:14.940 but they did say

01:32:15.420 there is no suspect

01:32:16.240 or person of interest

01:32:17.340 who's been identified at this time.

01:32:21.140 Yeah, that's it.

01:32:22.000 We have not identified a suspect

01:32:23.200 or a person of interest.

01:32:24.380 We continue to speak with anyone

01:32:25.660 who may have had contact

01:32:26.520 with Ms. Guthrie

01:32:27.340 and we're working daily.

01:32:29.020 We appreciate the public's concern,

01:32:30.360 but sharing of unverified accusations

01:32:31.940 or false information

01:32:32.940 is irresponsible.

01:32:34.200 It does not explicitly deny

01:32:35.760 that they're looking at the son-in-law

01:32:38.940 or that they towed

01:32:40.680 and impounded Annie Guthrie's car.

01:32:43.300 So your reaction to all that?

01:32:45.360 Okay.

01:32:46.060 A lot there.

01:32:46.880 And I listened to your interview

01:32:48.120 with Ashley.

01:32:49.000 Very informative.

01:32:51.720 When we started yesterday talking,

01:32:54.740 you and I,

01:32:56.180 victimology was the first term I mentioned.

01:32:58.460 And in victimology,

01:32:59.760 we said family, friends,

01:33:01.160 then we broke it down

01:33:02.020 to repairmen

01:33:03.040 and visitors to the house, whatever.

01:33:05.400 And family always has to go first.

01:33:07.160 And Ashley brought it up

01:33:07.940 to concentric circles.

01:33:09.380 80 to 85% of murders

01:33:11.340 are committed

01:33:11.820 by someone who knows the victim.

01:33:13.900 How well they know them,

01:33:14.780 you know, in passing tangentially

01:33:16.440 or actually, you know,

01:33:17.840 a close, you know,

01:33:18.920 very specific close family member.

01:33:21.000 So it's nothing unusual

01:33:22.380 about family members

01:33:23.900 being looked into

01:33:25.140 in this sort of investigation.

01:33:28.020 Impounding a car

01:33:29.080 either through consent

01:33:30.600 of the owner

01:33:32.060 or certainly with a search warrant,

01:33:33.700 which covers them more legally

01:33:35.160 down the line.

01:33:36.100 Those would never go to trial

01:33:36.980 or pretrial motions, whatever,

01:33:39.040 you know, makes the most sense there.

01:33:40.800 So they must have had probable cause

01:33:42.620 for something

01:33:43.240 to bring in this car

01:33:45.440 and consider this person.

01:33:46.840 If they did it via warrant.

01:33:48.340 If they did it via warrant.

01:33:49.020 She's not sure

01:33:50.340 whether he just gave it over.

01:33:52.420 Sure.

01:33:52.920 They would sign the consent forms.

01:33:54.480 I've done that hundreds of times

01:33:55.720 in my law enforcement career.

01:33:57.060 People, if they have nothing to hide

01:33:58.060 or even if they do sometimes,

01:33:59.460 they would still sign

01:34:00.160 the property over whatever it is.

01:34:01.980 So in a consent form.

01:34:03.640 So that happens all the time.

01:34:05.480 And I'm a linguist too.

01:34:07.780 We can talk about that

01:34:08.560 a little bit later

01:34:09.060 with maybe these

01:34:09.720 alleged ransom letters.

01:34:11.880 Yeah, we definitely want to get to that.

01:34:13.040 Interesting qualifier

01:34:14.500 that this word may,

01:34:16.060 M-A-Y,

01:34:17.020 may be a prime suspect.

01:34:20.600 And I get it.

01:34:21.260 The source, whoever it is,

01:34:22.540 is sort of covering

01:34:23.340 their tracks in that regard.

01:34:25.920 Because maybe they're

01:34:27.060 very close,

01:34:27.940 but not that close

01:34:28.960 that they have more information

01:34:30.360 than that.

01:34:31.220 But again,

01:34:32.540 quite frankly,

01:34:33.140 looking at the

01:34:34.060 immediate family member

01:34:36.420 would not be that unusual.

01:34:38.600 Now, why they were perhaps

01:34:39.920 interviewing one or more

01:34:41.060 family members,

01:34:42.360 the sister,

01:34:43.120 the brother-in-law.

01:34:44.240 Perhaps they were also

01:34:44.960 running cell phone tower checks

01:34:47.660 and they see some activity

01:34:49.040 late, you know,

01:34:49.980 two in the morning,

01:34:50.920 Sunday morning.

01:34:51.840 So let me ask you that.

01:34:52.760 And that could have been part

01:34:53.140 of the probable cause.

01:34:54.700 Exactly.

01:34:55.160 This is where I want to go with it

01:34:56.620 because

01:34:57.020 forget Ashley's report

01:35:00.160 for a second.

01:35:00.660 If you're law enforcement

01:35:02.420 out there and you know

01:35:03.240 that it was Annie,

01:35:05.540 I think it was Annie Guthrie,

01:35:07.420 and I don't know whether

01:35:08.260 the husband was with her or not,

01:35:09.420 but I think it was Annie Guthrie

01:35:10.700 that brought the mom back

01:35:11.780 from playing Mahjong.

01:35:13.800 We were also told

01:35:14.560 that it was a church event,

01:35:15.340 so I'm assuming it was Mahjong

01:35:16.380 at the church

01:35:16.980 on Saturday night

01:35:18.040 at 9.45,

01:35:19.780 hence the interest

01:35:20.520 in her car potentially.

01:35:21.900 But you would,

01:35:23.280 of course,

01:35:23.880 even though you assume

01:35:24.940 a loving relationship

01:35:25.800 between a mother

01:35:26.300 and a daughter,

01:35:27.720 that's not how cops work.

01:35:29.020 They actually don't assume

01:35:30.780 loving relationships

01:35:31.480 with anybody.

01:35:32.480 Everybody's on the table

01:35:33.320 until they're not on the table.

01:35:35.180 So they would have.

01:35:36.240 Wouldn't they,

01:35:36.780 as a matter of due course,

01:35:38.080 Jim,

01:35:38.560 have done a search

01:35:40.220 on her phone

01:35:40.820 and where it was

01:35:41.380 all night long

01:35:41.960 and on her husband's phone

01:35:43.260 and where it was

01:35:43.720 all night long?

01:35:45.980 And Megan,

01:35:46.680 besides that,

01:35:47.340 she's the last person

01:35:48.260 ostensibly that saw her alive,

01:35:50.400 certainly on the record.

01:35:51.560 So it makes every sense

01:35:53.220 and every common sense

01:35:54.200 from an investigative perspective

01:35:55.780 to look at that phone.

01:35:57.440 And then while they're

01:35:57.920 looking at her phone,

01:35:58.640 you know,

01:35:59.180 look at the husband's phone too,

01:36:01.080 meaning Savannah's brother-in-law.

01:36:03.920 And that makes perfect sense.

01:36:05.880 And maybe something came up

01:36:07.220 investigatively,

01:36:08.680 calls,

01:36:09.380 you know,

01:36:09.580 incoming,

01:36:10.120 outgoing,

01:36:10.860 maybe text messages,

01:36:12.100 but if nothing else,

01:36:13.060 just the pings

01:36:13.700 on the local towers

01:36:14.700 that said,

01:36:15.340 hey,

01:36:15.740 you know,

01:36:16.000 this car was here

01:36:16.900 and if the mother

01:36:18.280 was dropped off

01:36:18.860 at 9, 10,

01:36:19.600 even 11 o'clock at night,

01:36:21.480 it seems like

01:36:22.300 everyone's sort of

01:36:22.960 signing into the fact

01:36:24.520 that whatever bad

01:36:25.740 happened to her

01:36:26.360 was around 2 a.m.,

01:36:27.940 give or take.

01:36:28.640 So that's when

01:36:29.380 the pinging

01:36:29.860 would have to start again.

01:36:31.340 It may be very normal

01:36:32.340 for the daughter

01:36:33.060 Annie's car

01:36:34.500 to show up there

01:36:35.220 at, again,

01:36:36.340 9, 10 o'clock

01:36:37.020 when mom's being dropped off.

01:36:38.680 But if it then goes back

01:36:39.520 at 2 o'clock

01:36:40.220 in the morning,

01:36:40.920 that's when questions

01:36:42.020 have to be asked.

01:36:43.240 And the phone

01:36:43.760 may not even indicate,

01:36:45.500 well,

01:36:45.840 it probably wouldn't indicate

01:36:46.940 what car is being used.

01:36:48.660 Who knows how many cars

01:36:49.700 Annie and her husband have.

01:36:51.200 And it's interesting,

01:36:52.440 we only hear one car

01:36:53.880 being taken

01:36:54.700 by the search warrant

01:36:57.120 and impounded,

01:36:58.360 and not multiple.

01:36:59.700 And there's no indications

01:37:00.520 that the home was searched.

01:37:02.080 So perhaps the police

01:37:03.460 just going one step

01:37:04.360 at a time,

01:37:05.160 stick with the obvious thing.

01:37:06.280 Maybe they know the car

01:37:07.280 was the one

01:37:08.060 that dropped her off

01:37:08.820 or that's the one

01:37:09.400 that was out at 2 a.m.

01:37:10.720 And that's why

01:37:11.400 they're looking to search it

01:37:12.300 for a little graphic here,

01:37:14.500 but, you know,

01:37:14.920 obviously blood,

01:37:16.160 tissue,

01:37:16.980 anything that could be found

01:37:18.280 and connected

01:37:19.140 to Mrs. Guthrie.

01:37:21.280 The, of course,

01:37:22.840 they would say to everyone

01:37:24.480 who had had interactions

01:37:26.700 with Nancy

01:37:27.900 within the hours

01:37:29.180 leading up to her disappearance,

01:37:31.080 you tell me,

01:37:31.780 but I think they,

01:37:32.400 as soon as they sat down

01:37:33.500 with Annie and Tommaso

01:37:35.440 the next day,

01:37:36.780 they would have said,

01:37:37.960 can we have your phones?

01:37:39.460 Wouldn't they, Jim?

01:37:40.220 I mean, isn't that standard,

01:37:41.200 of course,

01:37:41.440 can we have your phones?

01:37:42.480 Like, just to rule you out.

01:37:45.520 Well, two things, yeah.

01:37:46.760 For exclusionary purposes,

01:37:48.500 of course,

01:37:49.020 ask for the phones.

01:37:50.240 But I hope

01:37:50.660 when the early interviews

01:37:51.420 were done,

01:37:52.040 and you don't know yet,

01:37:53.980 but I hope they separated

01:37:55.140 husband and wife

01:37:56.940 and did separate interviews

01:37:58.300 and that way

01:37:59.580 you could find out

01:38:00.300 any kind of conflicting

01:38:01.140 stories there.

01:38:02.120 We don't know.

01:38:03.020 I mean,

01:38:03.300 everyone was probably crying,

01:38:04.760 upset.

01:38:05.400 The police go in there

01:38:06.340 and who knows,

01:38:07.620 they may have just

01:38:07.980 interviewed people

01:38:08.540 on a couch

01:38:09.120 and Annie and her husband

01:38:11.520 were there at the same time.

01:38:13.280 I'm hoping at some point

01:38:14.320 we have separate interviews

01:38:15.680 and they can actually

01:38:17.140 break down

01:38:17.780 and really get into

01:38:18.800 the weeds about

01:38:19.500 who was where,

01:38:20.520 when,

01:38:20.860 and of course,

01:38:21.240 that is if they haven't

01:38:22.280 lawyered up yet.

01:38:23.480 That remains to be seen.

01:38:25.080 If it's true,

01:38:26.360 as Ashley's one

01:38:27.400 law enforcement source

01:38:28.220 has told her,

01:38:28.840 that they have now

01:38:29.920 towed and impounded

01:38:31.200 Annie's vehicle,

01:38:33.020 what does that tell you?

01:38:34.880 Okay, so let's assume

01:38:36.060 they didn't get a warrant.

01:38:37.780 Let's assume

01:38:38.300 they just asked Annie

01:38:39.320 if they could take her car

01:38:40.680 and they took it

01:38:42.260 and they impounded it.

01:38:44.200 What does that tell us?

01:38:46.540 Well, the word impounding

01:38:47.480 doesn't really mean

01:38:48.240 anything from a legal perspective.

01:38:50.840 I mean, you could argue

01:38:51.380 it could,

01:38:51.800 but just if it's

01:38:52.620 consensually agreed to,

01:38:53.680 they could just take it

01:38:54.240 to the parking lot

01:38:54.960 of the police

01:38:56.140 or the sheriff's department

01:38:57.460 and they have their

01:38:58.420 evidence response team

01:39:00.060 go through it.

01:39:00.960 They probably would

01:39:01.500 bring in the FBI

01:39:02.640 and those who do

01:39:03.620 this stuff all the time.

01:39:04.980 And of course,

01:39:05.360 they're vacuuming,

01:39:06.140 they're taking any kind

01:39:07.420 of liquid samples,

01:39:09.680 whatever they may be,

01:39:10.940 and they may have

01:39:11.960 a cadaver dog.

01:39:12.760 We talked about that

01:39:13.540 a little bit yesterday, Megan.

01:39:15.100 So they're doing

01:39:16.280 all kinds of

01:39:17.020 forensic searches.

01:39:18.100 They have, you know,

01:39:18.860 material they spray.

01:39:19.960 They have, you know,

01:39:21.140 laser lights

01:39:21.860 and all this stuff

01:39:22.740 to look for,

01:39:24.080 we'll just say remnants

01:39:24.940 of someone being in there,

01:39:26.960 you know,

01:39:28.540 most likely against

01:39:29.460 their will.

01:39:30.220 I'm thinking in the trunk

01:39:31.020 or the back seat,

01:39:31.960 not just riding

01:39:32.520 in the passenger seat.

01:39:34.080 The mother may have

01:39:35.220 very well been in that car,

01:39:36.680 so her DNA

01:39:37.520 in that car

01:39:38.760 in and of itself

01:39:39.960 touched DNA.

01:39:41.200 I think we know

01:39:42.180 she was in it.

01:39:43.340 Of course, yes.

01:39:44.720 When Annie dropped her off.

01:39:46.420 Now, that would be

01:39:47.020 the front seat

01:39:47.640 or maybe the back seat.

01:39:49.280 Was she in the trunk?

01:39:50.540 Was she in some other

01:39:51.680 part of the SUV?

01:39:52.760 I don't even know

01:39:53.000 what kind of car it is

01:39:53.880 that you wouldn't have

01:39:55.560 an 84-year-old person

01:39:56.760 riding in,

01:39:57.620 and that's what

01:39:57.960 they'd be looking for

01:39:58.720 some of this

01:39:59.400 very specific

01:40:00.340 forensic material.

01:40:00.700 Well, of course,

01:40:01.200 we know that she was

01:40:02.160 bleeding.

01:40:03.340 We know that

01:40:04.000 from the blood spatter,

01:40:05.040 but before I get to that,

01:40:07.440 is there any reason

01:40:10.720 if they didn't suspect Annie

01:40:13.240 or her husband,

01:40:14.740 I haven't heard

01:40:15.060 that they suspect Annie,

01:40:16.520 if they didn't suspect

01:40:17.420 her spouse,

01:40:19.060 Tommaso,

01:40:20.460 is there any reason

01:40:21.620 they would take that car?

01:40:22.640 Like, why would they

01:40:23.220 take that car, Jim?

01:40:24.060 I'm trying to find

01:40:24.820 like a benign explanation

01:40:27.120 for why they would,

01:40:28.340 again, reportedly,

01:40:29.260 according to one

01:40:29.740 law enforcement source,

01:40:30.920 take their car,

01:40:31.740 and it wasn't denied

01:40:32.500 in that sheriff's statement.

01:40:35.040 Investigatively,

01:40:37.220 they're trying to cover

01:40:38.060 every possible lead,

01:40:39.220 every possible potential

01:40:40.220 they can,

01:40:40.780 and they certainly

01:40:41.180 want to make sure

01:40:41.720 it's not damaged

01:40:42.500 or somehow,

01:40:43.580 you know,

01:40:43.920 cleaned out

01:40:44.500 or something else

01:40:45.880 done with the car

01:40:46.440 that could cover up evidence.

01:40:47.860 So someone came up

01:40:48.780 with the idea,

01:40:49.700 and again,

01:40:50.280 I'm listening to the denials

01:40:51.280 that you related

01:40:52.000 from the sheriff's spokesperson

01:40:53.600 and that, you know,

01:40:54.900 no prime suspect,

01:40:56.020 no one is a person of interest,

01:40:57.800 but they felt,

01:40:58.660 let's cover all our tracks here.

01:41:00.200 Let's get the only car

01:41:01.560 that we knew

01:41:02.240 at least that Saturday night

01:41:03.940 before midnight

01:41:05.840 that the mother was in.

01:41:07.320 Let's go in there

01:41:07.980 and see if perhaps

01:41:08.780 any of those

01:41:09.460 forensic materials there.

01:41:10.860 So on the grand scheme

01:41:12.300 of things,

01:41:13.500 Megan,

01:41:13.860 I don't think it's all

01:41:14.840 that unusual

01:41:15.580 that this car

01:41:17.440 would be taken.

01:41:19.280 I don't want to

01:41:20.120 jump the gun here

01:41:21.300 and right away

01:41:21.920 point the finger

01:41:22.780 at Tommaso.

01:41:25.020 You know,

01:41:25.180 we've been all

01:41:25.680 been down the path

01:41:26.260 before of cases like this,

01:41:27.720 and well,

01:41:28.160 this guy looks really good,

01:41:29.240 but, you know,

01:41:29.920 it turned out

01:41:30.460 not to be that person.

01:41:31.420 So, you know,

01:41:33.000 I'll respect Ashley's source.

01:41:34.900 I was never a big fan

01:41:35.740 of sources.

01:41:36.380 I was never one

01:41:37.140 while in the FBI,

01:41:38.400 but that's another story.

01:41:39.760 So, and I know they got,

01:41:41.540 I'm familiar with cases

01:41:42.340 I worked,

01:41:42.900 including the Anthrax case

01:41:44.040 where a high up source

01:41:45.420 got things really wrong

01:41:46.540 and that didn't actually

01:41:48.600 help the case

01:41:49.300 when Chief Moose

01:41:50.260 was not supposed to

01:41:51.140 release the information

01:41:52.240 from the tarot card.

01:41:53.340 That's a piece of history

01:41:54.620 there for your listeners.

01:41:55.980 But, so,

01:41:57.160 the source information

01:41:58.280 is not always correct,

01:41:59.100 but assuming that

01:42:00.320 he's on to something there

01:42:01.300 or she through Ashley,

01:42:03.300 it's not that unusual

01:42:04.780 to take the closest people

01:42:06.080 to a missing victim

01:42:07.760 or a murder victim

01:42:08.740 and just search out

01:42:10.660 everything about them.

01:42:11.920 And that way

01:42:12.400 you can safely say

01:42:13.400 you've ruled them out.

01:42:15.200 And Megan,

01:42:15.820 you're an attorney.

01:42:16.940 I can see the investigator,

01:42:18.420 the detective in court

01:42:19.340 two years from now.

01:42:20.520 Well,

01:42:20.660 did you ever even consider

01:42:21.640 searching the car

01:42:22.580 of the brother-in-law,

01:42:25.000 you know,

01:42:25.220 and then the sister?

01:42:26.600 And they say,

01:42:27.120 no, they didn't.

01:42:28.200 Well, in front of a jury,

01:42:29.720 that can create a whole

01:42:30.500 sort of exculpatory

01:42:31.580 sort of situation.

01:42:32.960 So they're covering

01:42:33.600 all their tracks here.

01:42:34.800 They may have 100% grounds

01:42:36.340 for doing this

01:42:37.180 or it may also be

01:42:38.600 sort of an exclusionary thing.

01:42:39.860 Let's get it out there.

01:42:41.060 Exactly.

01:42:41.660 So maybe,

01:42:42.480 so it's possible

01:42:43.040 they just took that car

01:42:44.080 to say we tracked

01:42:45.560 down every lead

01:42:46.320 and it's possible

01:42:47.040 this guy,

01:42:47.700 this law enforcement officer,

01:42:49.340 as you point out,

01:42:49.980 we don't know

01:42:50.240 if it's a guy or gal,

01:42:51.620 saying the brother,

01:42:53.320 maybe,

01:42:54.100 the brother-in-law,

01:42:54.800 maybe the prime suspect.

01:42:56.420 Could just be him speculating.

01:42:58.220 This is on the opposite

01:42:59.080 side of the ledger.

01:42:59.860 We should do both

01:43:00.600 because we have no idea

01:43:01.440 whether this is going

01:43:02.400 to bear out or not

01:43:03.160 and we don't want to

01:43:03.660 wrongly condemn this man.

01:43:04.860 Nor does Ashley Banfield,

01:43:05.780 by the way,

01:43:06.200 but she's a very solid reporter.

01:43:07.660 So we're following

01:43:08.940 the investigation step by step.

01:43:10.640 I'll just end this part

01:43:11.500 or I'll go on

01:43:12.080 as long as you want,

01:43:12.880 but I would actually say

01:43:14.240 at this point,

01:43:14.840 the investigators

01:43:15.360 would be remiss

01:43:16.260 if they did not

01:43:17.440 take that car

01:43:18.500 and do a thorough search of it.

01:43:20.160 Turn it back and say,

01:43:21.080 hey,

01:43:21.260 we found nothing in there

01:43:22.340 and go from there.

01:43:23.440 That doesn't mean

01:43:23.940 they won't find anything.

01:43:24.820 I don't know.

01:43:25.440 You and I are on the outside.

01:43:26.820 So is Ashley technically.

01:43:28.440 Oh,

01:43:28.620 she's talking to someone

01:43:29.340 on the inside.

01:43:30.220 So we don't know,

01:43:31.200 but I feel that's

01:43:32.120 a very logical investigative step

01:43:34.680 for them to take,

01:43:35.400 including the phones,

01:43:36.140 as you said earlier,

01:43:36.980 and say,

01:43:37.640 folks,

01:43:37.880 this is very routine.

01:43:39.280 You have no problem

01:43:40.280 with this, right?

01:43:41.400 There's some other cases.

01:43:42.360 I know the John Van A. Ramsey case.

01:43:44.040 The parents,

01:43:44.560 you know,

01:43:44.800 fought tooth and nail.

01:43:46.100 We don't have to get

01:43:46.640 into all that,

01:43:47.260 but there are some parents

01:43:48.200 or some family members

01:43:49.400 that don't want

01:43:49.920 to give up information

01:43:50.840 or they fight it for months,

01:43:54.480 you know,

01:43:54.660 interviews,

01:43:55.100 things like that,

01:43:55.680 and you wonder why.

01:43:57.100 Well,

01:43:57.340 this would have been

01:43:57.980 so strange.

01:43:58.720 I mean,

01:43:58.860 I just can't imagine

01:44:00.060 that Annie and Tommaso

01:44:01.760 would have said anything

01:44:02.700 other than,

01:44:03.460 please take our phones

01:44:04.440 and look at them,

01:44:04.960 even if there was something

01:44:05.860 to hide in this,

01:44:06.640 you know,

01:44:07.360 whatever scenario.

01:44:08.880 Because they called

01:44:10.280 the cops at noon

01:44:11.060 on Sunday.

01:44:12.480 She had only been,

01:44:13.460 they'd only been alerted

01:44:14.300 at 1110

01:44:15.020 that she hadn't shown up

01:44:16.460 at mass.

01:44:17.540 So the sheriff

01:44:18.460 has been pointing out

01:44:19.060 they took about an hour

01:44:20.300 to look for her themselves.

01:44:22.120 They were worried.

01:44:23.200 They realized,

01:44:24.140 like,

01:44:24.220 this is very strange.

01:44:24.960 She's not where

01:44:25.320 she's supposed to be

01:44:25.960 and she's not in her home.

01:44:27.980 But my point is,

01:44:28.940 like,

01:44:29.060 the sheriff then shows up

01:44:29.940 at noon

01:44:30.460 and,

01:44:31.440 you know,

01:44:32.360 at some point

01:44:33.160 during the day

01:44:33.680 when they realized

01:44:34.140 they actually had

01:44:34.620 a missing person,

01:44:35.340 he might have said to them,

01:44:36.820 can I see your phones?

01:44:37.660 He might not have.

01:44:38.460 He might have just been

01:44:39.060 treating them

01:44:39.480 as just complete victims.

01:44:41.700 And,

01:44:41.860 but it would have been

01:44:43.580 so bizarre

01:44:44.200 if he said,

01:44:45.200 hey,

01:44:45.380 can I see your phones

01:44:46.200 just because you were

01:44:46.720 last with them.

01:44:47.060 They're so bizarre

01:44:48.060 at that point

01:44:48.440 for somebody to be like,

01:44:49.720 no,

01:44:50.460 you can't.

01:44:51.020 Like,

01:44:51.280 I feel like

01:44:51.920 they would have been

01:44:53.260 handling the whole

01:44:54.020 investigation differently

01:44:55.220 if somebody had said that.

01:44:56.540 So,

01:44:56.880 okay,

01:44:57.240 let's just keep going

01:44:58.080 because that's all

01:44:59.220 a discussion about

01:45:00.000 what we don't know

01:45:01.420 and what it might mean,

01:45:02.580 which is not that helpful.

01:45:03.800 But we do know

01:45:04.800 that we've now seen blood

01:45:06.240 out in front of the house.

01:45:08.420 It is true that

01:45:09.520 the Nest camera

01:45:11.420 is gone

01:45:12.240 from the front of the house.

01:45:14.000 Ashley's reporting that

01:45:14.980 it was,

01:45:15.820 there was one there

01:45:16.640 and then there was one

01:45:17.600 behind the house

01:45:18.340 and that they were destroyed.

01:45:20.680 So what did you glean

01:45:21.720 from the blood evidence

01:45:22.600 in the front?

01:45:27.220 I mean,

01:45:27.740 obviously,

01:45:28.640 Mrs. Guthrie

01:45:29.300 didn't go

01:45:30.260 of her own accord.

01:45:31.360 I mean,

01:45:31.520 that's very simple

01:45:32.700 to say there.

01:45:33.160 We kind of discussed

01:45:33.760 that yesterday.

01:45:34.740 And that is clear

01:45:35.700 a blood spatter

01:45:37.180 to some degree.

01:45:38.400 It looks like it's falling

01:45:39.280 from a gravity perspective

01:45:40.460 straight down.

01:45:41.160 I don't see the,

01:45:42.100 you know,

01:45:42.980 the brushstroke,

01:45:44.160 so to speak,

01:45:44.600 going off

01:45:45.060 in different directions.

01:45:46.080 I didn't really look

01:45:46.620 at that closely.

01:45:47.280 But so it looks like

01:45:48.740 someone's being carried out

01:45:50.200 or at least,

01:45:51.780 you know,

01:45:51.940 supported under their arms

01:45:53.000 because we know

01:45:53.580 this woman can't walk

01:45:54.480 all that far

01:45:55.360 on her own.

01:45:56.020 And if someone

01:45:56.700 punched her in the nose,

01:45:57.700 punched her in the mouth,

01:45:58.800 of course,

01:45:59.700 she's going to need

01:46:00.260 help walking

01:46:01.220 or she has to be carried.

01:46:02.620 So somehow the blood

01:46:03.700 from a gravity perspective

01:46:04.900 is flowing downward.

01:46:06.600 Who knows how the body

01:46:07.500 was repositioned

01:46:09.120 in some way,

01:46:11.640 shape,

01:46:11.840 or form.

01:46:12.840 Was it was a cover?

01:46:14.000 You know,

01:46:14.540 did the person have a,

01:46:15.680 you know,

01:46:15.880 whatever,

01:46:16.260 paper towels,

01:46:16.840 whatever,

01:46:17.300 put it over mouth

01:46:17.960 or nose

01:46:18.420 to make sure the blood

01:46:19.480 hopefully wouldn't get

01:46:20.820 in the car.

01:46:21.280 They probably didn't care

01:46:21.860 about it on the,

01:46:22.580 on the street

01:46:23.260 or the driveway,

01:46:24.220 whatever that is,

01:46:25.380 the pavement,

01:46:26.060 but they probably didn't

01:46:26.840 want it in the car.

01:46:28.180 Now the odds are

01:46:28.760 it still wound up there anyway.

01:46:29.840 There's going to be

01:46:30.120 trace evidence.

01:46:31.060 If that,

01:46:31.760 if Mrs. Guthrie was put

01:46:33.240 in the car,

01:46:34.040 there's going to be

01:46:34.560 trace evidence of her,

01:46:35.660 certainly what she was

01:46:36.580 wearing,

01:46:37.020 et cetera.

01:46:37.680 So without seeing

01:46:39.360 more of a,

01:46:40.020 of a,

01:46:40.340 of a longitudinal

01:46:41.300 from inside the house

01:46:43.640 to outside the exact length

01:46:45.180 and breadth

01:46:45.980 of the blood droppings,

01:46:47.340 I'm not sure what else

01:46:48.200 to make.

01:46:48.660 Although the body

01:46:49.440 just could have been

01:46:50.120 repositioned

01:46:51.500 where the blood

01:46:52.020 came down more

01:46:52.760 on top of Mrs. Guthrie,

01:46:54.780 whatever she's wearing.

01:46:55.840 And for the moments

01:46:56.720 from wherever it stopped

01:46:57.920 at the front door

01:46:58.600 into the car,

01:46:59.740 we have an absence of it.

01:47:01.500 And it could be

01:47:01.920 a very logical explanation

01:47:03.040 having to do

01:47:03.700 with physics and gravity.

01:47:04.540 Yeah,

01:47:05.440 you raise,

01:47:05.760 you raise a good point

01:47:06.580 about how the,

01:47:07.780 it's blood droplets.

01:47:09.240 There's not a smearing

01:47:10.260 of it.

01:47:11.300 And there's a,

01:47:12.220 there's a significant amount,

01:47:13.780 but I don't,

01:47:14.120 it could be from like

01:47:14.940 a nosebleed.

01:47:16.260 That to me didn't look

01:47:17.380 like somebody had been,

01:47:18.340 you know,

01:47:19.200 shot in the femoral artery,

01:47:21.720 right?

01:47:21.960 It wasn't that level

01:47:23.020 of blood.

01:47:24.560 No.

01:47:25.060 And I,

01:47:25.360 it doesn't look like

01:47:25.880 arterial bleeding

01:47:26.600 as you just,

01:47:27.480 uh,

01:47:27.840 intimated there.

01:47:28.880 Uh,

01:47:29.320 but,

01:47:29.800 you know,

01:47:30.360 someone had a slap

01:47:31.280 this.

01:47:32.540 And I,

01:47:33.060 I hate to,

01:47:33.500 you know,

01:47:33.660 get as graphic as it,

01:47:34.620 but,

01:47:34.840 you know,

01:47:34.960 probably to control her,

01:47:36.120 she may have started

01:47:36.700 yelling,

01:47:37.640 screaming,

01:47:38.180 uh,

01:47:38.420 who knows what we

01:47:39.440 discussed yesterday.

01:47:40.160 Did someone ring the

01:47:41.060 bell,

01:47:41.400 knock on the door?

01:47:42.300 Did they have a key

01:47:43.160 to the door?

01:47:43.740 This brings in the

01:47:44.340 family situation.

01:47:45.500 We can't roll anything

01:47:46.620 out at this point.

01:47:47.600 You know,

01:47:47.880 is it that stranger?

01:47:48.940 Is it a stranger that

01:47:49.960 she kind of knew

01:47:51.160 that knocked on the door

01:47:52.380 and recognize,

01:47:53.460 Oh,

01:47:53.540 can you help me?

01:47:54.160 And they let her in

01:47:54.860 and then,

01:47:55.520 you know,

01:47:55.860 she's a cold cocked

01:47:57.240 by somehow hiding

01:47:58.060 someone behind,

01:47:59.020 uh,

01:47:59.660 you know,

01:47:59.840 behind the door jam,

01:48:00.700 whatever.

01:48:01.160 So it's,

01:48:01.920 uh,

01:48:02.380 there's still a lot of

01:48:03.140 scenarios to look at

01:48:03.940 here,

01:48:04.120 but the blood itself,

01:48:05.120 I'm not going to put

01:48:06.600 any high level of

01:48:07.620 sophistication that,

01:48:08.780 you know,

01:48:09.360 special bandages were

01:48:10.360 used to stop it.

01:48:11.320 It could have just

01:48:11.880 very well been it.

01:48:13.260 Let's just pick the

01:48:13.940 person up and put it

01:48:14.700 in the car.

01:48:15.140 And you raised the

01:48:15.960 point early on with

01:48:16.720 Ashley.

01:48:17.140 And I think both of

01:48:17.880 you agreed on it.

01:48:18.920 And,

01:48:19.420 um,

01:48:20.260 uh,

01:48:20.680 if this was a stranger

01:48:21.800 and somehow,

01:48:22.760 she was killed,

01:48:25.280 um,

01:48:26.480 just leave the body

01:48:28.280 there.

01:48:28.800 There's no reason to

01:48:29.840 take the body,

01:48:30.720 especially now that

01:48:31.720 there's been no

01:48:32.180 kidnapping demand,

01:48:33.080 certainly of which we

01:48:34.220 are aware.

01:48:35.180 But if somebody knew

01:48:36.940 the person,

01:48:37.660 that's a whole

01:48:38.780 different set of,

01:48:39.520 uh,

01:48:40.080 of criminal activity.

01:48:41.360 There's then staging

01:48:42.500 involved and stage

01:48:44.000 does not be real

01:48:44.620 sophisticated where you

01:48:45.460 pull out drawers and

01:48:46.500 you take some jewelry

01:48:47.660 to make it look like

01:48:48.320 it was a burglary of

01:48:49.100 some sort.

01:48:49.760 It could simply be,

01:48:50.940 uh,

01:48:51.400 just removing the body.

01:48:52.400 And,

01:48:53.360 uh,

01:48:53.740 or the person.

01:48:54.880 And,

01:48:55.360 and that could be

01:48:56.240 the sort.

01:48:56.840 So if you're,

01:48:58.160 if you know the person,

01:48:59.180 and again,

01:48:59.700 we're now talking that

01:49:00.480 it's not a kidnapping

01:49:01.240 for ransom.

01:49:02.420 If you know the person

01:49:03.460 and you think you

01:49:04.100 could be a logical

01:49:04.840 suspect,

01:49:05.320 you do a lot of

01:49:06.320 things different when

01:49:06.920 you commit a crime

01:49:07.700 to avoid being named

01:49:09.420 in that suspect pool.

01:49:11.840 It's just so strange

01:49:12.920 that she was removed.

01:49:14.160 I mean,

01:49:14.500 if,

01:49:14.780 if this isn't a

01:49:15.440 kidnapping for money,

01:49:16.320 why was she removed?

01:49:18.140 I like we talked

01:49:19.560 about yesterday,

01:49:20.020 maybe it was a

01:49:20.840 kidnapping for money

01:49:21.520 all along,

01:49:21.980 but she passed

01:49:22.840 once she was kidnapped

01:49:24.640 because she's an old

01:49:25.840 woman and she

01:49:26.900 isn't in great health.

01:49:28.500 But either way,

01:49:29.860 you were pointing out

01:49:30.380 they could still try

01:49:31.080 a ransom demand

01:49:31.820 and that does not

01:49:33.120 appear to have

01:49:33.740 happened so far,

01:49:34.480 which I'm going to

01:49:35.400 get to those ransom

01:49:35.960 notes in one second,

01:49:36.620 but I'm still on the house.

01:49:38.480 Ashley's also reporting

01:49:39.480 that there were

01:49:40.740 two Ness,

01:49:41.900 not ring cameras.

01:49:43.160 We saw one was,

01:49:44.540 used to be,

01:49:45.220 at the front door

01:49:45.920 and her reporting

01:49:47.160 is at the second one.

01:49:47.940 I think she,

01:49:48.300 I think she believed

01:49:49.040 it,

01:49:49.220 the second was

01:49:49.660 at the second,

01:49:50.320 the back door

01:49:50.900 and that the back door

01:49:52.040 was open.

01:49:52.660 She reported that as well

01:49:53.540 from her law enforcement

01:49:54.420 source.

01:49:54.860 So it is interesting

01:49:57.580 that the two cameras,

01:49:58.820 her reporting is that

01:49:59.500 they were destroyed

01:50:00.520 and then we believe,

01:50:02.820 though it hasn't been

01:50:03.300 confirmed,

01:50:04.040 that then law enforcement

01:50:04.900 took them.

01:50:07.380 So that,

01:50:08.400 is that a sophisticated

01:50:09.300 thing or no?

01:50:10.660 And what does it tell you?

01:50:11.420 Like,

01:50:11.800 I would imagine

01:50:12.660 if I'm going to break

01:50:14.420 into a house I don't know,

01:50:16.200 I'm probably only worrying

01:50:17.160 about the Ness camera

01:50:17.900 that's on the door

01:50:19.020 that I'm using.

01:50:20.100 I mean,

01:50:20.320 it's kind of interesting

01:50:21.040 that they're both

01:50:21.660 allegedly destroyed

01:50:22.520 on the front and back.

01:50:25.680 You know,

01:50:26.220 I like throwing in

01:50:27.540 quasi-historical elements

01:50:29.920 sometimes when I'm

01:50:30.660 looking at these cases

01:50:31.560 and when I was a young

01:50:32.980 police officer

01:50:33.760 at FBI

01:50:34.560 in Burris,

01:50:36.040 the better

01:50:36.460 the better

01:50:37.000 the better

01:50:37.500 the better

01:50:38.180 the top of the door,

01:50:40.280 you know,

01:50:40.800 the front door

01:50:41.300 Can you repeat that,

01:50:42.420 Jim?

01:50:42.500 I missed that.

01:50:44.200 Sure.

01:50:44.760 As a young

01:50:45.440 police officer

01:50:46.400 and then FBI

01:50:47.360 handling burglary cases,

01:50:49.540 big ones,

01:50:50.100 little ones,

01:50:50.940 sometimes the bad guy

01:50:52.140 would go up

01:50:52.660 and unscrew the light

01:50:53.740 on top of the front door

01:50:54.900 and that just gives

01:50:56.180 them privacy.

01:50:56.880 They may do it

01:50:57.360 the night before

01:50:58.060 or sometime during the day

01:50:59.760 then come back.

01:51:00.880 So that's not

01:51:01.620 what happened here

01:51:02.340 but it shows that

01:51:03.220 someone's thinking

01:51:03.980 a little bit in advance.

01:51:05.560 And I didn't use

01:51:05.980 the word yesterday

01:51:06.640 but I truly believe

01:51:07.940 the term

01:51:08.500 that this person

01:51:09.380 was mission-oriented.

01:51:10.520 They went there

01:51:11.580 with a purpose

01:51:12.500 and they knew enough

01:51:14.600 you didn't have to

01:51:15.280 unscrew the light bulb

01:51:16.040 like I said

01:51:16.580 before all these

01:51:17.380 cameras were out there

01:51:18.420 but they knew enough

01:51:19.240 to take one

01:51:19.940 or both cameras.

01:51:21.680 Perhaps they did

01:51:22.420 both cameras first

01:51:23.520 because they weren't sure

01:51:24.540 how they would get in

01:51:25.780 ingress

01:51:26.500 and how they would

01:51:27.260 get out

01:51:27.680 egress.

01:51:28.540 So they wanted to cover

01:51:29.360 both angles

01:51:31.020 so to speak

01:51:31.700 and just take out

01:51:32.960 both cameras

01:51:33.500 and smash them.

01:51:34.760 I'm not sure

01:51:35.480 why the police

01:51:36.260 wouldn't say

01:51:36.740 either they have the cameras

01:51:37.820 or they don't have

01:51:38.940 the cameras

01:51:39.420 but you know

01:51:41.380 smashed or not

01:51:42.120 but whatever

01:51:43.440 they're not admitting

01:51:44.520 to that.

01:51:45.280 So perhaps

01:51:46.220 it's evidence

01:51:46.800 they know

01:51:47.180 they can find

01:51:47.860 when the person

01:51:48.780 although you think

01:51:49.320 there'd be no reason

01:51:50.020 for them to keep

01:51:51.020 the cameras

01:51:51.540 if they took them

01:51:52.360 with them

01:51:52.720 meaning the kidnapper

01:51:54.120 the abductor.

01:51:55.240 So again

01:51:56.480 a little bit

01:51:57.000 of sophistication

01:51:57.880 I'll give to this team

01:51:58.960 person or team

01:52:01.000 but I won't

01:52:03.600 put them

01:52:04.020 in some sort

01:52:04.620 of you know

01:52:05.460 ultra level

01:52:06.040 of criminal

01:52:07.120 mastermind.

01:52:07.980 They knew

01:52:08.280 to smash a camera

01:52:09.080 maybe take it

01:52:10.120 and do whatever

01:52:11.500 with it.

01:52:12.240 In the old days

01:52:12.800 they would have

01:52:13.080 unscrewed the light bulb

01:52:13.940 on top of one or two

01:52:14.800 doors leading

01:52:15.680 into the place.

01:52:16.600 So yeah

01:52:18.980 why not do it

01:52:20.120 and again

01:52:21.360 it's just

01:52:21.940 one extra step

01:52:23.460 you can take

01:52:24.020 as a criminal

01:52:25.560 to hopefully

01:52:26.580 prevent something

01:52:28.420 bad from happening.

01:52:29.300 Let me add this

01:52:29.920 Megan

01:52:30.120 I learned this

01:52:30.620 years ago

01:52:31.160 when people

01:52:34.620 are arrested

01:52:35.820 early in their life

01:52:36.840 or it could be

01:52:38.160 or two

01:52:38.980 or three

01:52:39.560 before they get

01:52:40.340 arrested

01:52:40.740 they do some time

01:52:42.160 they realize

01:52:43.220 they made one mistake

01:52:44.420 and whatever

01:52:46.400 that mistake was

01:52:47.720 they will not

01:52:48.500 repeat again.

01:52:50.020 So you have

01:52:50.400 to ask yourself

01:52:51.180 and I know

01:52:51.980 we talked about

01:52:52.440 family members

01:52:53.160 maybe not

01:52:54.080 long term

01:52:55.140 you know

01:52:55.680 criminals

01:52:57.200 with lengthy

01:52:58.100 rap sheets

01:52:58.640 but even

01:52:59.440 someone else

01:53:00.020 perhaps they

01:53:00.580 got caught

01:53:00.980 before

01:53:01.460 or they did

01:53:02.320 prison time

01:53:02.940 with someone

01:53:03.420 who got

01:53:03.760 caught before

01:53:04.400 with the use

01:53:05.340 of a door

01:53:07.140 camera

01:53:07.480 security camera

01:53:08.300 and the first

01:53:09.200 thing they learn

01:53:09.700 is just take

01:53:10.140 that thing out

01:53:10.780 in the old

01:53:11.440 days they

01:53:11.820 would leave

01:53:12.080 DNA behind

01:53:12.900 they got

01:53:13.480 caught with

01:53:13.940 that

01:53:14.220 and they

01:53:14.820 made sure

01:53:15.320 to protect

01:53:16.060 themselves

01:53:16.600 you know

01:53:17.500 like on a

01:53:17.840 rape scene

01:53:18.360 or let

01:53:19.220 fingerprints

01:53:19.620 they know

01:53:20.000 to wear

01:53:20.200 gloves

01:53:20.560 they got

01:53:21.020 an eyewitness

01:53:22.400 ID

01:53:22.780 so they wear

01:53:23.760 masks

01:53:24.140 after that

01:53:24.740 and we would

01:53:25.320 talk to these

01:53:25.780 guys and we

01:53:26.220 eventually arrest

01:53:26.900 them

01:53:27.100 or even

01:53:27.540 as a

01:53:27.780 profile

01:53:28.080 we go

01:53:28.420 back into

01:53:28.840 prison

01:53:29.220 and interview

01:53:29.980 them years

01:53:30.560 later after

01:53:31.100 their conviction

01:53:31.640 and they would

01:53:32.440 you know

01:53:32.700 tell us

01:53:33.020 yeah my buddy

01:53:33.580 got caught

01:53:33.980 for that

01:53:34.340 and I

01:53:34.860 swear I

01:53:35.180 would never

01:53:35.420 do a crime

01:53:35.960 and make

01:53:36.600 that mistake

01:53:37.180 so

01:53:38.060 what I know

01:53:38.960 what I know

01:53:39.660 from being a

01:53:40.620 member of the

01:53:40.940 press for a

01:53:41.680 while is

01:53:42.160 there is such

01:53:43.340 a thing as

01:53:43.680 the stupid

01:53:44.080 criminal files

01:53:44.840 and I wouldn't

01:53:45.880 be surprised

01:53:46.480 at all

01:53:47.180 if it turned

01:53:48.080 out there was

01:53:48.580 actual video

01:53:49.380 of whoever

01:53:49.860 did this

01:53:50.380 walking up

01:53:51.680 to the

01:53:52.200 camera

01:53:52.600 unmasked

01:53:53.780 undisguised

01:53:55.040 and slamming

01:53:56.200 it

01:53:56.380 like we

01:53:57.340 have seen

01:53:57.900 what seem

01:53:59.080 like sophisticated

01:53:59.760 criminals

01:54:00.180 make the

01:54:01.320 stupidest

01:54:02.240 mistakes

01:54:02.820 leading up

01:54:03.740 to the

01:54:03.960 crime

01:54:04.320 or in the

01:54:04.740 aftermath

01:54:05.000 of the

01:54:05.380 crime

01:54:05.700 and I'm

01:54:06.740 really hoping

01:54:07.220 that was

01:54:07.480 the case

01:54:07.820 here

01:54:08.000 like some

01:54:08.600 idiot

01:54:08.900 didn't

01:54:09.220 realize

01:54:09.560 that would

01:54:10.380 be on

01:54:10.740 tape

01:54:11.080 and that

01:54:12.260 it could

01:54:12.480 be retrieved

01:54:13.220 you know

01:54:13.860 we just

01:54:14.320 don't know

01:54:14.820 fingers

01:54:15.440 crossed

01:54:15.760 but let's

01:54:16.860 keep going

01:54:17.160 because I

01:54:17.380 do want

01:54:17.560 to talk

01:54:17.780 about the

01:54:18.020 ransom notes

01:54:18.480 with you

01:54:18.760 Ashley

01:54:19.060 you heard

01:54:19.560 she didn't

01:54:19.960 think much

01:54:20.660 of it

01:54:21.040 doesn't

01:54:22.240 sound like

01:54:22.760 anybody

01:54:23.380 she's

01:54:23.740 talked to

01:54:24.400 thought

01:54:25.020 much

01:54:25.320 of it

01:54:25.840 at least

01:54:26.660 three

01:54:26.900 different

01:54:27.140 media

01:54:27.400 outlets

01:54:27.740 TMZ

01:54:28.340 and CNN

01:54:30.580 Tucson

01:54:31.080 affiliates

01:54:31.680 KOLD

01:54:32.260 and KGUN

01:54:33.600 that's

01:54:34.080 three

01:54:34.360 have reported

01:54:35.260 that they

01:54:35.660 received

01:54:36.120 ransom notes

01:54:36.780 earlier this

01:54:37.380 week

01:54:37.660 it is

01:54:38.800 interesting

01:54:39.100 that two

01:54:39.600 of them

01:54:39.900 are in

01:54:40.260 Tucson

01:54:40.600 and then

01:54:41.640 the third

01:54:42.000 is TMZ

01:54:43.000 the outlets

01:54:44.440 say the

01:54:44.760 notes

01:54:44.960 describe

01:54:45.420 specific

01:54:46.060 evidence

01:54:46.560 in Nancy

01:54:47.220 Guthrie's

01:54:47.620 home

01:54:47.920 where

01:54:48.440 authorities

01:54:48.780 say she

01:54:49.120 lived

01:54:49.280 alone

01:54:49.580 and was

01:54:49.860 last

01:54:50.020 Saturday

01:54:50.340 night

01:54:50.680 they said

01:54:52.700 we received

01:54:53.160 a note

01:54:53.520 referencing

01:54:54.080 Guthrie

01:54:54.800 it makes

01:54:55.300 a specific

01:54:56.060 demand for

01:54:56.580 several million

01:54:57.180 dollars in

01:54:57.660 Bitcoin

01:54:58.000 this is KGUN

01:54:59.480 by Thursday

01:55:01.380 meaning tomorrow

01:55:02.220 and threatens to

01:55:03.380 kill her if

01:55:03.840 payments not

01:55:04.260 received

01:55:04.700 by Monday

01:55:06.400 okay I don't

01:55:08.900 know it's like a

01:55:09.840 payment plan

01:55:10.400 Thursday to

01:55:10.900 Monday

01:55:11.160 it also makes

01:55:12.380 specific reference

01:55:13.160 to two pieces of

01:55:14.020 evidence at the

01:55:14.840 crime scene which

01:55:15.560 we cannot

01:55:16.180 authenticate as

01:55:17.440 legitimate

01:55:17.940 we forwarded

01:55:19.000 the full

01:55:19.260 contents of

01:55:19.820 the note to

01:55:20.220 investigators

01:55:20.760 and the

01:55:22.420 authorities

01:55:23.180 and then the

01:55:25.720 sheriff put out

01:55:26.400 a statement

01:55:27.360 saying that

01:55:28.000 they they're

01:55:28.580 looking into

01:55:29.100 all of this

01:55:29.660 all this stuff

01:55:30.240 goes directly

01:55:30.600 to our

01:55:30.880 detectives

01:55:31.320 okay your

01:55:31.980 thoughts on

01:55:32.600 the ransom

01:55:33.220 notes

01:55:33.640 yeah along

01:55:36.100 with being a

01:55:36.540 profile

01:55:37.020 profiler I'm

01:55:38.180 also a

01:55:38.540 forensic

01:55:38.860 linguist I

01:55:39.460 was a guy

01:55:39.820 that used

01:55:40.060 language in

01:55:40.460 the Unabomb

01:55:40.860 case to

01:55:41.360 you know

01:55:41.820 positively

01:55:43.020 identify Ted

01:55:43.700 Kaczynski

01:55:44.120 and go from

01:55:44.640 there and

01:55:44.960 that's where

01:55:45.340 I've been

01:55:46.180 I've been

01:55:46.600 working a lot

01:55:47.100 in that field

01:55:47.540 ever since then

01:55:48.240 so these notes

01:55:48.940 will be very

01:55:49.380 interesting to

01:55:49.980 me or any

01:55:51.100 forensic linguist

01:55:52.140 of course a

01:55:52.580 linguist is one

01:55:53.220 who studies

01:55:53.860 language forensic

01:55:54.580 you do it

01:55:55.020 within the

01:55:55.620 confines of

01:55:56.220 the criminal

01:55:56.500 justice system

01:55:57.160 so I'd be

01:55:58.280 very interested

01:55:58.760 to see these

01:55:59.260 a few things

01:55:59.760 about these

01:56:00.200 notes or

01:56:02.660 whatever they

01:56:03.080 are emails

01:56:03.680 I'm not sure

01:56:04.060 they came

01:56:04.360 through the

01:56:04.620 US mail

01:56:05.200 posted somewhere

01:56:06.420 dropped off

01:56:07.380 somewhere

01:56:07.860 TMZ got it

01:56:09.620 via email

01:56:10.300 okay

01:56:11.160 obviously there's

01:56:12.700 all kinds of

01:56:13.140 computer work

01:56:13.780 they can do

01:56:14.260 and the FBI

01:56:15.280 has a team

01:56:15.880 that they can

01:56:16.200 trace everything

01:56:16.840 where it goes

01:56:17.160 back to

01:56:17.640 where it

01:56:18.700 originated

01:56:19.100 hopefully

01:56:19.680 there are

01:56:20.380 anonymizers

01:56:21.060 that some

01:56:21.600 people use

01:56:22.120 that you

01:56:22.640 can't get

01:56:23.360 through to

01:56:23.800 the origin

01:56:24.720 the actual

01:56:25.200 origin of

01:56:25.660 the email

01:56:25.980 but I would

01:56:26.860 love to look

01:56:27.220 at the

01:56:27.500 language of

01:56:28.240 it itself

01:56:28.940 and I would

01:56:29.920 like to see

01:56:30.560 if the language

01:56:31.940 is similar

01:56:32.440 than the

01:56:33.500 we'll say

01:56:33.980 the kidnappers

01:56:34.680 sent them

01:56:35.480 to the same

01:56:36.100 multiple sources

01:56:38.300 just to make

01:56:39.780 sure someone

01:56:40.360 got it

01:56:40.900 and they

01:56:41.340 saw it

01:56:42.280 if they're

01:56:43.020 different

01:56:43.420 if it's

01:56:43.820 different

01:56:44.100 language

01:56:44.560 usages

01:56:45.040 I don't

01:56:45.280 mean

01:56:45.460 they'd be

01:56:46.000 English

01:56:46.220 no doubt

01:56:46.600 but if

01:56:47.160 they're

01:56:47.280 different

01:56:47.560 content

01:56:48.040 different

01:56:48.320 stylistic

01:56:48.820 features

01:56:49.260 then we

01:56:49.880 know one

01:56:50.180 of them

01:56:50.420 is fake

01:56:50.840 or at least

01:56:52.660 two of them

01:56:53.200 and the other

01:56:53.960 one is

01:56:54.580 similar

01:56:55.680 or it could

01:56:56.960 be conceivably

01:56:57.660 the real deal

01:56:58.320 so we would

01:56:59.320 see if people

01:56:59.840 are just on

01:57:00.480 their own

01:57:00.820 doing this

01:57:01.260 and the

01:57:02.320 Daniel Pearl

01:57:02.800 case

01:57:03.180 I was asked

01:57:03.780 to

01:57:03.960 there was

01:57:04.680 one email

01:57:05.700 that came

01:57:06.020 in with his

01:57:06.400 pictures

01:57:06.760 of course

01:57:07.260 he was the

01:57:07.620 Wall Street

01:57:08.040 Journal

01:57:08.300 journalist

01:57:08.960 in Pakistan

01:57:10.340 in 2002

01:57:11.260 with the

01:57:12.040 pictures of

01:57:12.440 the gun

01:57:12.720 to his

01:57:12.980 head

01:57:13.140 and all

01:57:13.400 and that

01:57:13.940 was published

01:57:14.340 in the media

01:57:14.840 that email

01:57:15.440 that sort

01:57:16.240 of abduction

01:57:17.520 email

01:57:18.020 and I was

01:57:18.760 the one

01:57:19.060 asked to

01:57:19.540 rule out

01:57:19.900 all these

01:57:20.300 copycat

01:57:20.920 emails

01:57:21.520 there were

01:57:21.820 dozens

01:57:22.120 of them

01:57:22.500 and we

01:57:23.040 could

01:57:23.300 and said

01:57:23.540 the only

01:57:23.840 authentic

01:57:24.220 one

01:57:24.560 is the

01:57:25.020 one

01:57:25.200 with

01:57:25.420 Daniel

01:57:25.740 Pearl's

01:57:26.080 pictures

01:57:26.400 hooked

01:57:26.900 to them

01:57:27.240 so I've

01:57:27.960 done that

01:57:28.180 in other

01:57:28.400 cases too

01:57:29.040 so a

01:57:29.900 bureau

01:57:30.640 or someone

01:57:31.200 hopefully

01:57:31.560 has a

01:57:31.920 forensic

01:57:32.220 linguist

01:57:32.760 looking at

01:57:33.540 these documents

01:57:34.240 first of all

01:57:35.200 to compare

01:57:35.680 them to

01:57:36.000 themselves

01:57:36.460 and see

01:57:36.900 if they

01:57:37.120 are written

01:57:37.360 by the

01:57:37.680 same

01:57:37.860 person

01:57:38.240 then secondly

01:57:39.260 the information

01:57:40.180 contained therein

01:57:41.380 how authentic

01:57:42.340 is it

01:57:42.980 are they

01:57:43.600 accurately

01:57:44.080 describing

01:57:44.720 the inside

01:57:45.360 of the

01:57:45.600 home

01:57:45.840 are they

01:57:46.340 accurately

01:57:46.720 describing

01:57:47.200 perhaps

01:57:47.700 what Mrs.

01:57:48.460 Guthrie

01:57:48.740 was wearing

01:57:49.260 and these

01:57:49.820 are all

01:57:50.100 factors

01:57:50.440 that would

01:57:50.820 then serve

01:57:51.360 to authenticate

01:57:52.400 the letters

01:57:53.540 themselves

01:57:54.120 but you

01:57:56.500 just don't

01:57:57.120 know in

01:57:57.460 this particular

01:57:57.960 case how

01:57:59.000 often

01:57:59.540 these

01:58:00.260 letters

01:58:02.260 are legitimate

01:58:02.860 because

01:58:03.640 it's such

01:58:04.100 a high

01:58:04.340 profile case

01:58:05.160 how are they

01:58:05.680 going to

01:58:05.780 figure that

01:58:06.080 out Jim

01:58:06.380 it's like

01:58:06.600 I know

01:58:07.140 bitcoin is

01:58:07.940 a red

01:58:09.060 flag but

01:58:09.620 that's

01:58:09.980 what else

01:58:10.580 would the

01:58:10.860 kidnapper

01:58:11.260 ask for

01:58:11.640 bitcoin

01:58:11.960 actually

01:58:12.420 can't be

01:58:13.080 traced

01:58:13.380 it's as

01:58:13.760 good as

01:58:14.000 anything

01:58:14.240 else

01:58:14.520 I mean

01:58:14.740 if I

01:58:15.280 were going

01:58:15.500 to kidnap

01:58:15.900 somebody

01:58:16.280 I suppose

01:58:17.280 I'd consider

01:58:17.860 a bitcoin

01:58:18.300 payment

01:58:19.120 because

01:58:19.520 truly it's

01:58:20.700 like once

01:58:21.140 you

01:58:21.320 we've done

01:58:22.120 series

01:58:22.600 on fraud

01:58:23.560 and

01:58:24.900 it's often

01:58:26.160 the method

01:58:27.140 of choice

01:58:27.640 because

01:58:28.060 once you

01:58:28.760 put like

01:58:29.140 10 grand

01:58:29.660 into that

01:58:30.040 bitcoin

01:58:30.480 machine

01:58:30.860 it's gone

01:58:31.520 forever

01:58:31.860 and it's

01:58:32.280 not traceable

01:58:33.640 so I

01:58:33.820 kind of

01:58:34.200 I don't

01:58:35.120 know

01:58:35.340 a fraudster

01:58:36.680 writing a

01:58:37.100 fake note

01:58:37.800 could be

01:58:38.240 asking for

01:58:38.780 bitcoin

01:58:39.320 and the

01:58:39.860 real kidnapper

01:58:40.600 could also

01:58:41.140 be asking

01:58:41.540 for bitcoin

01:58:42.020 so how

01:58:42.880 do they

01:58:43.200 figure out

01:58:44.100 whether this

01:58:44.580 is real

01:58:44.960 well first

01:58:47.000 of all

01:58:47.220 they'd want

01:58:47.460 to ask

01:58:47.680 for proof

01:58:48.060 of life

01:58:48.400 I think

01:58:48.660 we discussed

01:58:49.060 that yesterday

01:58:49.740 send some

01:58:50.660 kind of a

01:58:51.060 picture

01:58:51.360 a video

01:58:51.960 that hopefully

01:58:52.480 can be

01:58:52.780 determined

01:58:53.000 not to be

01:58:53.540 AI

01:58:53.820 and I

01:58:54.760 would suggest

01:58:55.240 no one

01:58:55.560 in the

01:58:55.760 family

01:58:56.120 I can't

01:58:58.120 tell them

01:58:58.340 what to

01:58:58.600 do

01:58:58.800 but you

01:58:59.180 would need

01:58:59.460 some proof

01:58:59.940 that she

01:59:00.340 is alive

01:59:01.060 and of

01:59:01.680 course the

01:59:02.020 kidnappers

01:59:02.620 and again

01:59:02.860 we're going

01:59:03.180 down this

01:59:03.540 kidnapping

01:59:03.920 route

01:59:04.280 if in

01:59:05.000 fact that's

01:59:05.640 the case

01:59:06.400 we can

01:59:07.360 you would

01:59:09.700 want to

01:59:09.940 kind of

01:59:10.300 make sure

01:59:10.640 you work

01:59:11.280 it out

01:59:11.500 that way

01:59:12.000 that she

01:59:12.840 is in

01:59:13.100 fact still

01:59:13.520 alive

01:59:13.840 if the

01:59:14.080 family's

01:59:14.340 going to

01:59:14.460 put the

01:59:14.700 money

01:59:14.860 out there

01:59:15.360 they can

01:59:16.360 play hardball

01:59:16.860 and say

01:59:17.100 no just

01:59:17.440 give us

01:59:17.700 the money

01:59:17.980 and we'll

01:59:18.200 let her

01:59:18.400 go

01:59:18.640 so that's

01:59:19.500 where that

01:59:19.780 whole

01:59:20.120 you could

01:59:20.720 ask

01:59:23.200 questions

01:59:24.600 only Nancy

01:59:25.460 could answer

01:59:26.260 you know

01:59:26.620 like we

01:59:28.240 talked yesterday

01:59:28.840 about the

01:59:29.160 old like

01:59:29.560 holding up

01:59:29.960 the newspaper

01:59:30.460 but there's

01:59:30.900 other ways

01:59:31.540 of making

01:59:31.960 sure they

01:59:32.380 have her

01:59:32.880 without

01:59:33.780 actually

01:59:34.420 requiring

01:59:35.320 that

01:59:35.720 yes and

01:59:37.100 the other

01:59:37.440 thing is

01:59:37.760 the FBI

01:59:38.200 doesn't put

01:59:38.620 money up

01:59:39.080 it would

01:59:39.620 have to

01:59:39.800 be the

01:59:40.020 family that

01:59:40.500 does it

01:59:40.880 we're going

01:59:41.640 to assume

01:59:42.000 Savannah has

01:59:42.640 the means

01:59:43.040 to put up

01:59:43.540 some money

01:59:44.660 or the

01:59:44.940 family somewhere

01:59:45.620 does if

01:59:46.200 need be

01:59:46.700 that's

01:59:47.300 interesting

01:59:47.800 I won't go

01:59:49.140 any further

01:59:49.500 than that

01:59:49.960 that actually

01:59:50.600 reminds me

01:59:51.060 the reward

01:59:52.360 that they said

01:59:52.820 they're posting

01:59:53.240 right now

01:59:53.640 is 2500 bucks

01:59:54.820 which

01:59:55.640 what's that

01:59:56.760 about

01:59:57.020 obviously

01:59:57.540 I'm sure

01:59:58.200 Savannah would

01:59:58.740 give any

01:59:59.260 amount of

01:59:59.700 money if she

02:00:00.260 actually believed

02:00:01.020 it would lead

02:00:01.960 to the return

02:00:02.480 of Nancy

02:00:02.880 so there must

02:00:03.540 be a reason

02:00:03.940 why she's

02:00:04.460 not saying

02:00:05.020 it's a

02:00:05.940 five million

02:00:06.400 dollar reward

02:00:07.080 that is odd

02:00:11.420 too I mean

02:00:12.020 that amount

02:00:12.400 is so low

02:00:13.080 I just helped

02:00:14.440 post a reward

02:00:15.280 for a 30 year

02:00:16.180 old homicide

02:00:16.660 of a friend

02:00:17.140 of mine

02:00:17.480 and it was

02:00:19.120 substantially more

02:00:20.000 than that

02:00:20.380 but so yeah

02:00:22.180 I think if a reward

02:00:23.300 ever comes into play

02:00:24.140 here they are

02:00:25.060 going to in fact

02:00:25.740 up that amount

02:00:27.320 and take it

02:00:27.880 from there

02:00:28.340 but the police

02:00:29.920 who are investigating

02:00:31.620 this the FBI

02:00:32.700 are going to be

02:00:33.140 giving guidance

02:00:33.760 in that regard

02:00:34.380 I wonder

02:00:35.720 there must be

02:00:36.120 some reason

02:00:36.520 they told her

02:00:36.940 not to do it

02:00:37.420 yet because

02:00:37.780 there's no

02:00:38.140 question

02:00:38.560 she has it

02:00:40.200 and would post

02:00:40.940 it if she

02:00:42.300 thought it

02:00:42.960 were going

02:00:43.400 to crack

02:00:44.620 open this

02:00:45.100 case

02:00:45.400 but back

02:00:45.940 to the

02:00:46.520 ransom

02:00:46.840 notes

02:00:47.600 so they

02:00:48.460 proof of life

02:00:49.780 is that

02:00:50.100 basically it

02:00:50.800 like you

02:00:51.140 look for

02:00:51.400 that and

02:00:51.780 then I

02:00:52.000 guess you

02:00:52.240 track down

02:00:52.760 the provenance

02:00:53.460 of the

02:00:53.940 communications

02:00:54.440 if you

02:00:54.760 can and

02:00:56.020 see if

02:00:56.360 that looks

02:00:56.720 like anybody

02:00:57.740 who's

02:00:58.200 legitimate

02:00:58.640 I mean

02:00:58.840 it kind

02:00:59.060 of sounds

02:00:59.320 like it's

02:01:00.280 well I

02:01:00.540 don't know

02:01:00.840 I mean

02:01:01.120 I was going

02:01:01.400 to say

02:01:01.580 maybe it's

02:01:01.920 somebody in

02:01:02.260 Tucson

02:01:02.460 but really

02:01:03.260 we just

02:01:03.600 know that

02:01:03.840 two Tucson

02:01:04.320 news outlets

02:01:05.040 were targeted

02:01:05.560 along with

02:01:06.440 TMZ

02:01:06.920 which that's

02:01:07.860 got to tell

02:01:08.200 us something

02:01:08.600 I don't know

02:01:09.000 what

02:01:09.280 and you

02:01:11.580 have to ask

02:01:12.140 you know

02:01:12.440 why wasn't

02:01:12.980 a note

02:01:13.380 of some

02:01:13.780 sort

02:01:14.060 it could

02:01:14.260 be very

02:01:14.520 carefully

02:01:14.880 written

02:01:15.280 without

02:01:15.920 fingerprints

02:01:16.400 or DNA

02:01:16.900 why that

02:01:18.000 wasn't left

02:01:18.620 at the crime

02:01:19.140 scene itself

02:01:19.940 and why it

02:01:20.900 took 48

02:01:21.620 maybe even

02:01:22.480 72 hours

02:01:23.280 for any kind

02:01:24.120 of a note

02:01:24.460 to show up

02:01:25.080 and then to

02:01:26.100 news outlets

02:01:27.940 which has

02:01:28.680 happened before

02:01:29.420 but it's

02:01:30.560 just highly

02:01:31.920 unusual

02:01:32.520 and other

02:01:33.780 kidnappings

02:01:34.260 of which I am

02:01:34.740 aware

02:01:34.940 now that I think

02:01:35.540 about it

02:01:35.780 because you and

02:01:36.100 I have talked

02:01:36.400 about your

02:01:36.740 work on the

02:01:37.200 Unabomber case

02:01:37.900 many times

02:01:38.600 you know

02:01:41.140 Ted Kaczynski

02:01:42.120 he wrote to

02:01:42.840 the media

02:01:43.320 like at some

02:01:44.660 level we talked

02:01:45.560 about did he

02:01:46.140 want to get

02:01:46.640 caught

02:01:47.000 was he

02:01:47.400 mad that all

02:01:48.520 these dopes

02:01:49.260 in the media

02:01:49.720 couldn't figure

02:01:50.280 out it was

02:01:50.740 him

02:01:51.100 like could

02:01:52.120 that be

02:01:52.700 what's

02:01:53.060 happening

02:01:53.340 here

02:01:53.660 this that

02:01:54.360 this really

02:01:54.800 is the

02:01:55.240 kidnapper

02:01:55.740 and that

02:01:56.100 we're

02:01:56.800 dismissing

02:01:57.460 it too

02:01:57.800 quickly

02:01:58.160 yeah but

02:01:59.860 of course

02:02:00.220 Kaczynski

02:02:00.940 well he had

02:02:01.680 his own

02:02:01.960 psychological

02:02:02.460 issues which

02:02:03.000 I've discussed

02:02:03.460 in my most

02:02:03.920 recent book

02:02:04.480 and other

02:02:04.780 things but

02:02:05.320 you know he

02:02:05.840 wasn't in it

02:02:06.400 for money

02:02:06.840 he was dealing

02:02:07.640 with the

02:02:07.960 media

02:02:08.220 his ransom

02:02:10.360 demand so to

02:02:11.260 speak was

02:02:11.940 the New York

02:02:12.240 Times publishing

02:02:13.000 his article

02:02:13.720 which everyone

02:02:14.440 else called

02:02:14.860 manifesto

02:02:15.580 and that's

02:02:16.520 what he

02:02:16.780 wanted in

02:02:17.260 that regard

02:02:17.860 and of

02:02:19.280 course his

02:02:19.580 letters were

02:02:19.960 mailed back

02:02:20.440 from the

02:02:21.260 San Francisco

02:02:21.720 Bay Area

02:02:22.260 we all

02:02:22.620 we could

02:02:23.260 trace it

02:02:23.900 there

02:02:24.120 so yeah

02:02:25.960 I'm not here

02:02:26.780 without looking

02:02:27.240 at these

02:02:27.480 letters I

02:02:27.880 can't say

02:02:28.280 they're legit

02:02:28.700 or not

02:02:29.120 they're probably

02:02:30.680 not all

02:02:31.160 legit if

02:02:31.760 they're

02:02:32.040 differently

02:02:32.560 different styles

02:02:33.640 to them

02:02:34.020 or came in

02:02:34.520 from different

02:02:35.080 addresses but

02:02:36.020 one of them

02:02:36.600 mixed in there

02:02:37.140 maybe and

02:02:38.140 you would hope

02:02:38.560 that there

02:02:38.800 be some

02:02:39.120 kind of a

02:02:39.580 code or

02:02:40.520 some kind

02:02:40.960 of a

02:02:41.220 singular

02:02:42.580 aspect to

02:02:43.580 it that

02:02:44.360 if the

02:02:45.040 law enforcement

02:02:45.800 does have

02:02:46.300 it they

02:02:46.880 know that

02:02:47.180 this is the

02:02:47.560 real person

02:02:48.100 and this is

02:02:48.840 not you

02:02:49.280 know some

02:02:49.540 copycat

02:02:50.140 and that

02:02:50.700 of course

02:02:50.940 would never

02:02:51.260 be released

02:02:51.780 and I'm

02:02:52.220 also a fan

02:02:52.800 of we do

02:02:53.300 have if it's

02:02:53.780 a few even

02:02:54.760 a few hundred

02:02:55.620 words of this

02:02:56.620 demand I'm a

02:02:58.220 big fan of

02:02:59.260 putting it out

02:02:59.720 there and they

02:03:00.320 can leave some

02:03:00.760 signature stuff

02:03:02.200 off but put it

02:03:03.340 out there for

02:03:03.820 anyone who may

02:03:04.360 recognize maybe

02:03:05.380 it's a non-native

02:03:06.020 English speaker a

02:03:06.820 forensic linguist

02:03:07.480 could tell that

02:03:08.060 male female

02:03:09.060 writing styles

02:03:09.920 forensic linguist

02:03:10.680 can do that

02:03:11.220 I'm asked to do

02:03:11.880 this all the

02:03:12.220 time in my

02:03:12.800 private business

02:03:14.120 with threatening

02:03:15.360 type things and

02:03:16.180 harassing type

02:03:16.960 things so

02:03:17.800 so I'm

02:03:18.920 hoping they

02:03:19.420 do bring

02:03:20.060 someone on

02:03:20.520 board to

02:03:20.920 look at

02:03:21.240 these and

02:03:21.920 determine their

02:03:22.460 provenance

02:03:22.960 they may be

02:03:23.620 legit they may

02:03:24.280 be bogus

02:03:24.820 they're not

02:03:25.580 all going to

02:03:25.860 be legit

02:03:26.300 one's going

02:03:26.740 to be legit

02:03:27.280 unless they're

02:03:29.100 identical

02:03:29.540 communication sent

02:03:32.540 to these

02:03:32.780 different outfits

02:03:33.260 it could be

02:03:34.540 one guy just

02:03:35.300 trying to get

02:03:35.620 as much

02:03:35.860 coverage of

02:03:36.420 his demands

02:03:37.020 as possible

02:03:37.580 sent the same

02:03:38.020 thing

02:03:38.200 that's another

02:03:39.940 thing we discussed

02:03:40.520 in your Unabomber

02:03:41.400 coverage or

02:03:42.540 investigation is

02:03:43.460 that it wound up

02:03:45.320 being a good

02:03:45.680 thing that his

02:03:46.740 manifesto or

02:03:47.860 letter or his

02:03:48.380 article was

02:03:48.820 published because

02:03:49.880 it was his

02:03:50.740 brother who saw

02:03:51.720 it and eventually

02:03:52.820 said that writing

02:03:54.560 looks kind of

02:03:55.240 familiar this

02:03:56.400 sounds like my

02:03:57.260 brother Ted so

02:03:58.900 yeah you're right

02:03:59.580 there's an argument

02:04:00.120 in favor of making

02:04:01.720 these ransom notes

02:04:03.100 public and letting

02:04:04.120 us all see what

02:04:04.900 the person is

02:04:05.720 demanding and by

02:04:06.980 the way I don't

02:04:07.380 know to me it

02:04:07.980 seems odd because

02:04:08.660 if I really had

02:04:09.660 Nancy Guthrie and

02:04:10.400 I wanted millions

02:04:11.400 of dollars in

02:04:11.980 bitcoin I think

02:04:13.620 I'd include a

02:04:14.240 picture of her in

02:04:16.060 my note or

02:04:17.900 something that was

02:04:18.520 just absolutely

02:04:19.700 bulletproof that I

02:04:20.640 had or some sort

02:04:21.540 of fact that she

02:04:22.160 would only reveal

02:04:22.760 to me so this

02:04:23.740 does sound like

02:04:24.280 BS to me but I

02:04:25.320 mean we'll see

02:04:25.740 let me ask you

02:04:26.420 this so now we're

02:04:27.260 on day four if she

02:04:28.960 was stolen technically

02:04:29.880 in the wee hours of

02:04:30.800 Sunday which would

02:04:31.440 be day one this

02:04:32.520 would be day four

02:04:33.100 do you what is

02:04:36.920 what is your

02:04:37.420 prognosis for this

02:04:38.840 investigation right

02:04:39.740 now I know as an

02:04:43.260 investigator when I

02:04:44.120 work these types of

02:04:45.040 crimes I always work

02:04:47.660 them with the

02:04:49.480 assumption that the

02:04:50.360 person is still alive

02:04:51.320 and I mean it could

02:04:53.820 be a potential

02:04:54.820 kidnapping scenario

02:04:55.900 it could be an

02:04:56.880 abduction it could

02:04:57.400 just be a kid that

02:04:58.060 walked away or a

02:04:58.780 teenager who ran

02:04:59.760 away other parts of

02:05:01.380 the investigative team

02:05:02.320 can go on the fact

02:05:03.300 that she's probably

02:05:03.880 dead let's turn

02:05:04.820 over every rock

02:05:05.580 sometimes literally

02:05:06.360 that we have to

02:05:07.460 but I like to look

02:05:08.560 at these as if it's

02:05:09.480 still a it's still a

02:05:11.160 search and rescue

02:05:11.940 mission and in an

02:05:14.180 attempt to determine

02:05:15.000 where she is and I

02:05:16.940 would be very careful

02:05:18.140 if I was the one

02:05:18.900 doing the public

02:05:20.860 speaking which I've

02:05:21.980 done in the past in

02:05:22.720 certain cases where if

02:05:23.940 I'm advising the

02:05:25.860 people going in front

02:05:26.600 of the cameras to be

02:05:27.600 careful what they say

02:05:28.620 and I think that's I

02:05:30.700 think I think Savannah

02:05:32.080 has probably been

02:05:32.820 advised right now let's

02:05:34.720 not say anything we'll

02:05:35.960 determine you know the

02:05:37.120 prayers are fine the

02:05:38.620 post she put out there

02:05:39.780 but other than that

02:05:41.380 she's not putting

02:05:41.980 anything out public

02:05:42.880 she's probably being

02:05:43.900 advised not to do

02:05:44.940 that and and that's a

02:05:46.720 smart thing so when

02:05:47.840 the time is right they

02:05:48.800 will know what to say

02:05:49.720 and how to say it but

02:05:51.260 I'm going to assume that

02:05:54.520 she's I would work this

02:05:56.040 case is that she's

02:05:56.780 still alive and and

02:05:58.460 we're trying to get

02:05:59.120 her back because you

02:06:00.300 put the you put the

02:06:01.480 negative feelings out

02:06:02.420 there as the

02:06:02.900 spokesperson or there's

02:06:05.240 negative you know

02:06:06.160 connotation that she

02:06:07.520 may be dead then it

02:06:09.240 could become a

02:06:09.800 self-fulfilling prophecy

02:06:10.760 by the bad guys said

02:06:12.280 well I think she's dead

02:06:13.020 anyway so let's you

02:06:14.240 know so let's hope

02:06:16.100 she's alive let's hope

02:06:17.080 we keep talking let's

02:06:17.880 hope we keep humanizing

02:06:19.120 her she's an older

02:06:20.360 woman she needs her

02:06:21.140 meds she's a loving

02:06:22.140 mother etc grandmother

02:06:24.240 let's get this let's

02:06:25.720 get this person back

02:06:26.640 safely the the other

02:06:29.120 two things I forgot to

02:06:30.680 mention are yesterday

02:06:32.760 Brian Enten and other

02:06:34.060 reporters on scene at

02:06:35.340 the house saw a local

02:06:37.140 sheriff's helicopter

02:06:38.760 come over the property

02:06:40.980 and that it lingered

02:06:42.640 there they said for

02:06:43.660 about just over 30

02:06:45.320 minutes that's kind of

02:06:47.340 interesting Jim I mean

02:06:48.160 they had searched the

02:06:49.700 area extensively Sunday

02:06:52.480 and Monday so I don't

02:06:55.640 know what that means

02:06:56.400 maybe they were they

02:06:57.800 thought they'd get an

02:06:58.440 aerial view though they

02:06:59.360 had they had fixed wing

02:07:00.440 aircraft and they had

02:07:01.580 helicopters out there as

02:07:03.580 well on Sunday it's kind

02:07:04.800 of odd that it returned

02:07:06.520 to the scene and the

02:07:07.260 second thing I wanted to

02:07:08.220 mention is kind of

02:07:10.420 strange that the police

02:07:11.660 turned back over the

02:07:13.060 house to the family

02:07:14.240 leaving the blood

02:07:16.060 evidence there that's how

02:07:17.000 we've seen it because

02:07:17.800 Brian Enten a great

02:07:18.800 reporter for News Nation

02:07:19.740 actually did what few

02:07:21.780 others did he he went

02:07:23.560 out up to the front

02:07:24.600 door and saw what was

02:07:26.660 there what was there to

02:07:27.720 report and sure enough

02:07:29.000 found a lot but and now

02:07:31.100 reportedly they do have a

02:07:32.820 cop or a security person

02:07:34.520 stationed there to keep

02:07:35.540 reporters and looky

02:07:36.420 loose away but what do

02:07:38.640 you make of that

02:07:39.120 helicopter and or the

02:07:41.300 fact that they didn't

02:07:42.120 clean up the blood

02:07:42.700 evidence before they

02:07:43.340 turn the house back over

02:07:44.900 to the family yeah two

02:07:46.840 things there I mean it

02:07:48.680 could be another

02:07:49.140 investigative team came

02:07:50.180 in and they said hey

02:07:51.120 look can you take us up

02:07:52.080 as I've done a case out

02:07:53.900 in you know Oklahoma or

02:07:55.240 wherever and I there's

02:07:56.420 some things about the

02:07:57.220 terrain maybe you can

02:07:58.300 help me they could put a

02:07:59.480 drone up there too and

02:08:00.560 take aerial photos but

02:08:01.680 maybe they just felt

02:08:02.420 seeing it in real time

02:08:04.220 sort of in person so I

02:08:05.580 there could be a lot of

02:08:06.840 reasons what the

02:08:07.460 helicopter was up there

02:08:08.600 and hovering for you know

02:08:10.480 30 minutes or so I'm not

02:08:12.020 sure what to make into

02:08:12.740 that make of that but and

02:08:15.000 as far as giving the

02:08:15.560 house back I suppose they

02:08:16.780 feel the law enforcement

02:08:18.840 feels they got the

02:08:19.520 evidence out of there

02:08:20.140 they can they've done all

02:08:21.280 the forensic sweeps and

02:08:24.920 I'm hoping I mean I sort

02:08:28.000 of laughed but I don't I

02:08:29.660 don't mean it in a funny

02:08:30.560 way I'm assuming every

02:08:32.100 square inch of that house

02:08:33.580 has been searched I'll

02:08:35.560 never forget the Ramsey

02:08:36.400 case the little girl was

02:08:37.340 down in the sub basement

02:08:38.780 for six hours after the

02:08:40.420 parents called and so I'm

02:08:43.720 assuming every square inch

02:08:44.880 the pool house you know

02:08:47.000 wherever they keep the

02:08:47.860 filter and the

02:08:48.540 chlorinator for the pool

02:08:49.460 all those things have

02:08:50.400 been searched I know we

02:08:51.040 have blood out front but

02:08:52.500 nonetheless which looks

02:08:54.340 like an egress of of

02:08:55.800 of Mrs. Guthrie so I mean

02:08:59.360 you reach a certain point

02:09:00.300 and the family just want

02:09:00.960 to say hey can we have

02:09:01.620 our house back and as

02:09:02.720 long as all the evidence

02:09:03.560 has been taken out of

02:09:04.500 there the forensic evidence

02:09:06.420 it's time if they had it

02:09:09.040 for 48 hours they don't

02:09:10.220 do cleanup yeah they don't

02:09:11.620 and they don't do that

02:09:12.360 either there's companies

02:09:13.720 that do that wow all

02:09:15.660 right well I'm sure we'll

02:09:16.980 have more developments

02:09:17.720 Jim I'll probably be

02:09:18.960 needing to talk to you

02:09:19.640 again soon thank you so

02:09:20.700 much for sharing all your

02:09:21.560 expertise and your time

02:09:22.400 with us you're welcome

02:09:23.740 Megan you have a nice

02:09:24.380 day you too wow what a

02:09:26.560 day what a couple of what

02:09:28.560 a what a shift right to go

02:09:30.040 from J.D. Vance to the

02:09:31.060 Guthrie case in such depth

02:09:32.340 but we care about it we

02:09:34.340 care we care what happens

02:09:35.900 we're obviously praying for

02:09:37.200 Nancy Guthrie and for the

02:09:38.160 whole family and seems like

02:09:40.220 they might be getting

02:09:40.760 closer now praying that

02:09:42.200 they're getting closer so

02:09:43.620 we'll talk more about it

02:09:44.480 we'll certainly talk more

02:09:45.100 about J.D. as well

02:09:45.900 tomorrow I'll say my one

02:09:47.920 observation that I want to

02:09:49.100 share with you before we

02:09:49.720 go I'll try to raise this

02:09:51.880 tomorrow too if I remember

02:09:52.620 is just how different he

02:09:56.240 is he'll talk about

02:09:57.260 anything nothing's off

02:09:59.000 limits like he he went

02:10:00.660 from subject to subject with

02:10:02.040 ease think of our last

02:10:05.000 vice president and how

02:10:07.500 stilted she was on

02:10:09.260 everything it was like her

02:10:11.320 weird transgressions into

02:10:14.460 Venn diagrams and burdens

02:10:16.620 and stuff like this guy was

02:10:18.540 like boom boom boom he could

02:10:20.320 make jokes you make fun of

02:10:21.680 himself he could get serious

02:10:22.800 he could talk in depth on

02:10:24.060 policy he could you know be

02:10:26.240 funny about Don Lemon and so

02:10:28.260 on it's just these I'm not

02:10:30.960 even sure these these two are

02:10:32.840 like the same species she she's

02:10:36.800 like an alien being who

02:10:38.360 doesn't totally understand the

02:10:39.900 English language I miss her I'm

02:10:42.500 not gonna lie I kind of hope

02:10:43.560 she gets the nomination and

02:10:44.700 that we get to see those two

02:10:45.620 debate but in any event what a

02:10:48.580 difference and looking forward

02:10:50.100 to your thoughts on all of

02:10:51.960 today's program you know you can

02:10:52.980 email me Megan at Megan Kelly

02:10:54.580 dot com thank you for listening

02:10:56.340 thanks for listening to the

02:10:59.240 Megan Kelly show no BS no agenda

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The Megyn Kelly Show - February 04, 2026

VP JD Vance on Deportations, Greenland, and Don Lemon, PLUS Latest on Savannah Guthrie's Mom's Abduction, with Ashleigh Banfield and James Fitzgerald Ep. 1245

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