The Megyn Kelly Show - Was Air India Crash Deliberate, and Previewing Next Epstein Shoe to Drop, with Fifth Column and Aviation Experts

00:00:00.640 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at noon east.

00:00:12.280 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. I'm like a little

00:00:16.260 jarred right now, given the story that we're opening with. We have a huge show for you. We've

00:00:21.920 got the fifth column. Love these guys. But we're going to start with a shocking report that just

00:00:26.200 hit on what we know about Air India Flight 171, which horrifically crashed soon after takeoff

00:00:32.380 just a couple of weeks ago, about a month ago, June 12th, killing all but one of its 242 passengers

00:00:39.920 and reported 29 more on the ground. Think of that. So 241 passengers killed and reported 29 more on

00:00:49.940 the ground. That Boeing 787 Dreamliner, which took off from India and was headed to London's

00:00:56.360 Gatwick Airport, seemed to run into problems almost immediately after takeoff.

00:01:01.520 Stunning footage of the crash emerged online. Watch.

00:01:04.160 Horrific. For the listening audience, you just see a plane, the huge white plane that looks like

00:01:26.260 it might kind of be trying to land, but this happened on takeoff and then you just see the

00:01:31.780 fireball. Incredibly, somehow one person survived, a 40-year-old British man, Vishwaj Kumar Ramesh.

00:01:42.300 He just walked away. It was incredible tape. You've probably seen it in the past five weeks.

00:01:47.560 Just walked out of the fireball with only minor injuries.

00:02:01.780 It's not clear in the moment that I knew what had happened to him. He later told local media

00:02:12.720 I was going to die. But when I opened my eyes, I realized I was alive. I pulled out the belt from

00:02:19.540 under my seat and tried to escape. And then I managed to do it. I saw others and the air hostess

00:02:26.280 in front of me who could not escape. Air India said those on board included 169 Indian nationals,

00:02:32.320 53 British nationals, seven Portuguese, one Canadian. The youngest victim believed to be just

00:02:38.300 four years old. And according to a new report in the Wall Street Journal, a black box recording

00:02:44.020 indicates it was the captain who turned off switches that allow fuel to flow into the plane's

00:02:53.260 engines right after the plane took flight. The journal's reporting cites people familiar with

00:02:59.600 the U.S. officials early assessment of the evidence in the crash. According to the journal, the first

00:03:04.600 officer asked the captain why he turned off the switches, allowing the fuel to flow. And then you

00:03:12.660 can hear the first officer panic. The captain apparently remains calm the entire time. India's Aircraft

00:03:20.780 Accident Investigation Bureau or AAIB first revealed the exchange last week without specifying which pilot

00:03:27.840 made each comment. That report says one pilot asked why the other turned off the switches and the other

00:03:35.440 denied doing so. But clearly we now know that it was the, the second in command, but the one who was

00:03:42.360 actually flying the plane who said, why did you just turn off the fuel switches? And then the captain

00:03:48.180 calmly, this is obviously in a moment of dire situation for the plane says he didn't do it. The report says the

00:03:58.060 switches were moved one second apart and turned back on after they had turned off the fuel about 10 seconds

00:04:05.640 later, but it was too late. The report also made no conclusions on whether the actions were deliberate, but it's

00:04:12.820 easy to see why there are now reports hitting online from several aviation experts that there is no way

00:04:20.780 this plane went down other than intentionally that the captain of this plane deliberately brought down

00:04:28.540 this flight. According to the journal, these preliminary findings have led some U S officials to believe

00:04:34.300 that a criminal investigation must be opened. The AAIB issued a statement to the journal Thursday

00:04:40.660 evening stating we urge both the public and the media to refrain from spreading premature narratives

00:04:46.440 that risk undermining the integrity of the investigative process. Well, too bad because these folks have been

00:04:53.060 notoriously secretive in other investigations and in this one and U S officials think a criminal

00:05:00.420 investigation should be opened up. So we're not going to honor your request. They added that at this

00:05:06.000 stage, it's too early to reach any definite conclusions. Okay, that's fine, but you don't stop

00:05:11.440 speculation from, from a country that is not exactly known for its transparency on this kind of thing.

00:05:19.340 And when you're talking about hundreds of people who may have just been mass murdered,

00:05:24.280 joining me now to react to all of this, our captain Steve Scheibner, captain Steve on YouTube,

00:05:31.840 Matthew Wiz Buckley, decorated U S naval aviator and top gun graduate and Patrick Smith,

00:05:36.980 who's an airline pilot and air travel blogger at ask the pilot basketball season may be over,

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00:06:40.760 Guys. Thank you so much for being here. Wow. This is, this is really stunning. Um, this was a wall

00:06:48.500 street journal exclusive posting these new details that it was the first officer questioning the

00:06:54.540 captain's apparent actions. He expressed surprise and then panic. The captain remained calm and the

00:07:01.720 names of those who were flying. It was first officer Clive Cunder. He was the pilot flying the plane,

00:07:06.680 age 32. The captain who remains calm and is under suspicion was Sumit Sabrawal, uh, a decades long

00:07:13.980 veteran. He is the one who flipped the switches age 56. Wiz, let me start with you as our, as our top gun

00:07:20.300 grad and a pilot. Um, what do you make of this information? Initially, Megan, it's an absolute

00:07:26.540 horror. It looks like a, uh, a murder suicide. Uh, as you alluded to, uh, seven 87s just don't simply

00:07:32.600 rotate, get airborne and then settle back down. Uh, it looks like the captain for whatever reason

00:07:38.080 wanted to check out that day. And sadly, Megan, this isn't the, the first example of a pilot just

00:07:44.340 wanting to take an aircraft down or take people with them. Uh, Egypt air 990 or the German wings

00:07:50.880 mishap, I believe in 2015, before I started flying for FedEx, there was a famous, uh, incident with a

00:07:58.220 former flying tigers pilot who was going to jump in the jump seat, uh, and crash a plane into FedEx

00:08:04.760 headquarters. So he could get the insurance. Uh, and you know, he didn't want to, uh, look like, uh,

00:08:10.020 a murder. So he wanted to crash the airplane. So Megan, uh, all indications are that the captain

00:08:16.140 selected the cutoff position on the fuel switches about 10 seconds for that first officer who was flying

00:08:23.040 the airplane to be a little confused and look around going, Hey, what are we doing here? And then

00:08:28.000 to put them back on. And sadly, one of the motors spooled up a little bit above idle. And the other

00:08:33.600 one was just trying to come online, but it was, uh, too late real quick, Megan. Uh, I know pilots

00:08:39.200 unions hate this, but we have like HD cameras on the other side of the moon. If we had some HD cameras

00:08:45.800 in the cockpit, instead of just a voice recorder, we'd know for absolute 100% certainty what happened.

00:08:52.520 But for whatever reason, pilots unions don't like a camera looking over their shoulder. Maybe this will

00:08:57.380 change that. I mean, it's like being a cop. You're in, you got other people's lives potentially in

00:09:02.240 your hands. And unfortunately you have to sacrifice a bit of privacy because this is not the first time

00:09:07.120 this has happened. I mean, just researching for the show, we have seen pilot, you know,

00:09:12.180 death by suicide, but while committing mass murder before, I mean that crash, that German air,

00:09:17.880 that German pilot in 2015 was the most recent, but there were many prior to that. Captain Steve,

00:09:22.620 as you hear, as you look at the video of that plane, it was taking off and then of course comes

00:09:27.320 back down and it almost looks like a gentle come down, but obviously it wasn't. And it wasn't

00:09:30.660 supposed to be coming down. Um, and you hear these facts as reported by the journal, what conclusions

00:09:36.860 do you reach? Well, at first, when you see that video, it doesn't make any sense. I've never seen

00:09:42.680 anything like that. An airplane that takes off, it looks like it achieves flight fine. And then seconds

00:09:48.240 later, maybe four or five seconds later, you can see the nose kind of come over. Clearly the wings

00:09:53.460 are losing lift and the airplane then begins to settle in to the, the buildings off the end of

00:09:58.540 the runway. And it does look like it's landing, but it's not. We clearly know that at this point,

00:10:03.180 the only answer to that is it's a dual engine failure and what caused the dual engine failure.

00:10:08.040 And I think now with this wall street journal confirmation plus a preliminary report, which,

00:10:13.300 you know, they parsed their words a little bit. They said the fuel control switches transitioned

00:10:18.940 from run to cutoff. They don't transition. Somebody has to place them there. It's a three-step process.

00:10:25.280 You have to grasp the switch, pull it up because it's spring loaded, pull it down and let it go.

00:10:30.920 So that's only a human has to do that. And there's no known procedure that I know of at 200 feet off the

00:10:37.400 ground on rotate where you would grab those switches and put them to cut off. So either way,

00:10:43.300 it was pilot error, whether it was intentional or unintentional. I think now the wall street

00:10:47.000 journal has kind of concluded that it's intentional and that's no surprise.

00:10:52.500 And, and my understanding is, and maybe you can speak to this Patrick, but my understanding is

00:10:57.080 they put a little guard on the control panel, panel dashboard. I'm not exactly sure what the

00:11:03.920 right term is, but where they keep those fuel switches, there's like a little guard so that a

00:11:08.080 pilot can't inadvertently like knock it with his hip or his hand while he's reaching for

00:11:11.980 something. So it really does look like, but by all accounts, here's a picture we got from the

00:11:16.380 daily mail for the listening audience. It shows a little control panel and you can see the tiny

00:11:20.780 little fuel levers, but to the right and to the left of them is like a little metal guard that

00:11:25.640 stands up. And my understanding is Patrick, that's, that's to prevent anything inadvertent from

00:11:30.000 happening.

00:11:31.580 That's that's correct. And, um, I think we need to start out by saying that there's a lot here that

00:11:39.620 we just don't know. The report that came out the other day was, was very preliminary. We don't

00:11:45.000 even have a CVR transcript yet. Um, you've mentioned a few times what we know, what we know.

00:11:52.160 Well, what about all the things we, we don't know? And, uh, as a result, I, I tend to be a little more

00:11:59.520 reserved and conservative in my assessment of what happened. Um, what, what do you think happened?

00:12:05.080 I, I don't know. We don't know. And well, you say you're more reserved. What, how are you more

00:12:10.060 reserved? What conclusion are you reaching? I don't necessarily buy the, uh, murder suicide

00:12:16.220 scenario. I'm not, I'm not saying it didn't happen. There's evidence leaning in that direction

00:12:21.860 strongly. Um, but the, the dynamics of the crash don't quite make sense that way. So let me get this

00:12:29.620 straight. You're going to shut the engines off at the moment of rotation and glide to a crash. Um,

00:12:37.180 there are so many unknowns in a scenario like that. There's no guarantee that the crash would be

00:12:42.140 catastrophic, um, that everybody would be killed, that, that the, the, the person who did it would

00:12:47.420 be killed. Um, just to the left of the impact area where the plane hit is a mostly open stretch

00:12:53.960 without buildings or larger obstructions. If the plane had just been a little more to that side,

00:12:59.200 um, the crash could have been at least partly survivable. It just doesn't seem like the way

00:13:06.360 somebody would, would go about doing something like that. And you go back to Egypt there and then

00:13:11.240 German wings and MH370, which almost certainly, uh, was a murder suicide. Um, uh, it just, it,

00:13:19.920 it, it feels different. And, and there remains the distinct possibility. This is going to sound

00:13:24.440 preposterous that the fuel control switches were shut off, uh, accidentally inadvertently in a

00:13:31.140 moment of absurd, uh, absent-mindedness. And while it sounds preposterous, that sort of thing has

00:13:37.780 happened before. Um, for, for the listening audience, Patrick, Patrick speaking and both of

00:13:42.780 our other pilots are shaking their heads. No, uh, but I like the disagreement. I appreciate the

00:13:46.980 different, the different opinions cause we don't know what happened. Go ahead, Wiz.

00:13:49.920 I just couldn't disagree more. Uh, Megan, if there was anything, but what we've been talking

00:13:56.260 about, they would go out of their way in this report to say it. If there was a hiccup in the

00:14:00.900 electrical systems, Megan, these jets are incredibly smart. You wouldn't know that yet. You would not

00:14:05.480 know any of that yet. This is so early on. You would know that. You would absolutely know that

00:14:09.940 because these jets are tattletales. Okay. Let was finish. Go ahead, Wiz. No. Those engines,

00:14:14.880 they data link stuff directly to GE, the flight control computers. They know just about everything

00:14:21.220 at this point. If there was any other straws they could be grasping at, they would throw that in the

00:14:26.740 report right now. They did not. There was no electrical hiccups. There was no contaminated fuel.

00:14:31.900 They put in this preliminary report, very preliminary stuff, obviously, uh, what they

00:14:37.400 believe. If there was any other thing on God's green earth, they probably, uh, would have written

00:14:42.680 that down. Go ahead, Kevin, Steve. I'll come back to you one second, Patrick. I'll come right back

00:14:48.160 to you. Let me get Kevin. Yeah, I, I agree that, that there's no way that those switches moved from

00:14:54.120 run to cutoff. And that's what they said in the preliminary report that they were, they were,

00:14:58.240 they didn't say place. They said, transition to cutoff. Let's assume for a minute that there,

00:15:02.660 there's some reason that there was, uh, an electronic glitch. Uh, you would have to believe

00:15:07.180 that it happened on both switches one second apart. Uh, and if that were the case, they would be

00:15:14.420 grounding every single Boeing airplane on the planet. They all have those same switches. There

00:15:19.760 would be an investigation into what was wrong with those switches. None of that has come out of this.

00:15:24.560 And so the, what's not being reported in the report is, or what's not taking place is just

00:15:29.340 as important as what you do read in the report. I don't think Boeing or anybody else suspects that

00:15:34.440 there's anything wrong with the seven 87 because there's not correct. I'll give you the floor one

00:15:39.480 second. One second. Uh, but I just want to say this. We also have the other piece of evidence,

00:15:44.900 which is the co-pilot, the one who was actually flying the plane, believed the captain did it

00:15:48.960 100% believed he did it. And then the captain denied it in, in some sort of calm manner,

00:15:54.180 which was said to be his manner. Uh, and then we'll get to the reports about his mental state,

00:15:58.500 which vary. Um, okay, go ahead, Patrick, you want it to defend your position.

00:16:04.260 Um, again, I'm not, I'm not concluding anything. I'm leaving open the possibility,

00:16:09.180 um, that this indeed was a murder suicide. And as I said, it is certainly trending that way,

00:16:14.400 but it's not, we don't know for sure. There's a lot we don't know. And what of the possibility

00:16:20.460 that he simply shut them off by mistake? It has happened before. And I'm sure my guests know that

00:16:27.220 it sounds ridiculous, but it has happened. And there also was mentioned in the report of a Boeing,

00:16:33.760 a service bulletin that was put out, um, a few years back regarding fuel control switches that would

00:16:40.660 not lock into position and could potentially slide back to the cutoff position on their own.

00:16:45.460 Um, what of that? Um, to me, that kind of jumped out. Uh, it's not, it's not likely,

00:16:52.080 but it's also not likely that the captain shut the engines off and, and, and crashed.

00:16:56.580 I don't find that unlikely at all. I actually don't find that unlikely it's happened. It's,

00:17:00.520 you know, we are just pulling the other scenario, but nobody wants to talk about that because it's

00:17:05.500 not, we're talking about it. You're having your say, Patrick, what are you complaining about?

00:17:09.100 Here's, um, some examples that you've got, um, that this is from the FAA. They call them

00:17:15.020 aircraft assisted pilot suicides saying they're rare. They include the November, 2013 crash of

00:17:21.200 Mozambique airlines, uh, a plane bound for Angola, which, um, was eerily similar to the German wings

00:17:27.900 plane. One that was German wings flight nine, five to five. That one was so eerie where that

00:17:31.800 pilot died, taking 149 other people with him. Uh, he was depressed and flew the plane right into the

00:17:38.040 side of a mountain. That was absolutely awful. Um, he was 27 years old. We know he was determined

00:17:42.760 to kill himself. Uh, okay. And then there's, let's see, there's a bunch Egypt airlines. You

00:17:48.960 guys mentioned flight 990 off Nantucket in 1999, killing all 27, 217 people on board caused by

00:17:55.160 deliberate action. According to the NTSB, in that case, a relief pilot, Gamil al-Butudi waited for

00:18:01.000 the captain to leave the cockpit, then disengage the autopilot. As the plane descended, he could be heard

00:18:04.780 saying in Arabic, I rely on God over and over. And there are more, I mean, you could keep going.

00:18:09.580 Um, Hey Megan, real quick with the Egypt air. Yeah. With the Egypt air mishap. So the captain

00:18:16.420 actually came back from the head or whatever he was doing and saw this going on. He jumped in,

00:18:21.440 pulled back on the control yoke and he's fighting with the FO, the first officer at the time and the

00:18:26.300 Boeing at the time, the captain would override the first officer's control inputs. Guess what he did

00:18:32.900 to take the airplane down after that? He reached over and shut the fuel to the engines off. So

00:18:39.540 another instance of that, but let, let's be clear, Megan, uh, whether it's the India board, the NTSB,

00:18:46.900 uh, history has shown us that we want to have preliminary reports. Why does the flying public

00:18:52.580 want to wait 12 to 18 months to find out why an airliner crashed? No. So they want to compile as much

00:18:58.720 fax as they can as quickly as they can. As captain Steve alluded to, if there was something going on

00:19:04.720 in these brand new seven 87 airliners, where just magically the, the, the fuel switches go to cut

00:19:10.740 off, they would be freaking the hell out right now. They're not, you know, I'll, I'll support Patrick

00:19:15.960 a little bit and say, of course, there's all sorts of, you know, slim to none possibilities going on

00:19:20.740 here, but all the evidence is, is pointing in this direction. And, you know, Megan, it sounds like

00:19:24.920 we're going to talk about mental health stuff here in a little bit, but yeah, let me tell you what

00:19:28.440 the reporting is on that. Okay. The daily telegraph is reporting the following that captain Mohan

00:19:33.320 Ranganathan, um, a leading aviation safety expert in India has revealed that quote, several air India

00:19:41.460 pilots had allegedly confirmed that this experienced pilot had suffered from poor mental health. The

00:19:47.720 captain we're talking about here, Sumit Subarwal, the one he's now dead, uh, age 56, who we are

00:19:53.200 speculating may have brought down this plane. Um, so this other captain is saying that he's spoken

00:19:58.900 with several air India pilots who allegedly confirmed to him that this pilot had suffered

00:20:02.500 from poor mental health. Speaking to the daily telegraph, he claimed quote, he had taken time

00:20:06.960 off from flying in the last three to four years. He had taken medical leave for that. Uh, this captain

00:20:12.180 is understood to have taken bereavement leave after the death of his mother. Again, this is from the

00:20:16.880 daily telegraph though. It's believed, um, by this man doing the reporting, a different captain,

00:20:22.020 uh, Ranganathan that he'd been medically cleared by air India prior to the fatal crash. The telegraph

00:20:28.980 said that while air India declined to comment and official working with their parent company Tata

00:20:34.220 group told the publication that captain Sabar wall, the guy at issue had not taken any medical leave

00:20:40.600 with the preliminary report, failing to obtain any significant findings. They added that within the last

00:20:45.800 two years, both pilots on board, the flight had passed the class one medical exam, which makes an

00:20:50.020 evaluation of their psycho physical capabilities. Unfortunately, some of those other pilots in the

00:20:57.300 cases that we just went over also passed their exams and were not identified as having mental problems, but

00:21:04.500 they clearly did. Um, your thoughts on that guys.

00:21:10.260 Well, Megan, we just went out with a video about mental and emotional health. And I interviewed Dr. Charlie

00:21:16.260 Carreri, who's really the pioneer, uh, in this field. He's the guy responsible for it's at least

00:21:22.900 an American Delta United and Southwest, their programs that are in place where pilots can go

00:21:27.540 self-report without any fear of incrimination or losing their jobs, which is hugely important because

00:21:32.580 there's a big stigma with mental health. Uh, and I think that's the direction that all of this is

00:21:37.700 going is to sit and talk about what's the mental health issues with pilots. Uh, and it's a very stressful

00:21:43.220 job, uh, and you have to balance on the road with at home. And those two things don't always go together

00:21:49.300 very well for people that travel all the time. And then there's a stress and the responsibility that goes

00:21:53.700 with the job. So I think there's never a bad time to have that conversation about mental health. Certainly

00:21:59.300 now this is kind of a springboard into having that conversation. And it's certainly one that I think

00:22:04.020 is important to have.

00:22:04.980 Hey, Megan, a quick, uh, quick update with, uh, the German wings. Uh, they actually knew a lot of his doctors

00:22:12.820 knew, but apparently the German medical system, it's to steal a phrase, it's verboten. Those two

00:22:19.300 systems weren't allowed to talk in, in Germany. Apparently you could say I'm absolutely nuts and

00:22:24.180 suicidal. I'm going to crash an airliner. The doctors were forbidden from telling whatever the

00:22:29.700 German is about any of this. Oh yeah. Trust me after that, I think they've hopefully made some

00:22:36.340 changes in the German system, but at the time that all the doctors after they had to shrug their

00:22:42.180 shoulders and say, Hey, that thing was so disturbing by law, not to do that. Yep.

00:22:46.340 That thing was so disturbing. And it was, it was very clear in that case that it was,

00:22:49.380 it was a murder suicide. Um, it like my husband and I have, you know, as one does in gallows,

00:22:54.900 humor made jokes about it. There's I'm down here at the Jersey shore for the summer. And we always

00:22:59.620 take our kids to this, um, amusement park at least once a summer. And there's one of those rides,

00:23:04.740 the scrambler at this amusement park. And there's something crazy about this particular

00:23:08.580 scrambler. It goes to like a gear that you've never seen before, where you really feel like

00:23:12.980 you're going to be flung right off the coast of New Jersey into the ocean. And one time,

00:23:17.460 like one of the first times I ever wrote it, I looked at my husband and our kids,

00:23:21.140 and I tried to get a look at the guy operating it. And I said to my husband, Doug, I'm like,

00:23:26.100 he's like the German pilot. This is it. You're like, he's, it's fun. It's gallows humor. But like,

00:23:31.300 there are, there are people who are extremely sick. And that's,

00:23:34.100 what's so disturbing about this is, is one thing if you're sick and you commit suicide.

00:23:38.260 But if that's what happened here, we're talking about a mass serial killer. Same thing with MH370.

00:23:44.740 Like the you're beyond suicidal. You're one of the worst homicidal maniacs in world history.

00:23:53.140 We're talking about hundreds, hundreds of murders in an instant, which to your point,

00:23:57.460 Patrick is why we should be cautious before completely throwing this captain under the bus.

00:24:02.340 And, uh, by the way, as Steve alluded to, um, airlines, regulators, um, the pilots unions,

00:24:11.780 at least in the U S, uh, there's, we've come a long way. Um, there's a lot of, uh, I guess you could,

00:24:18.500 you could call it proactivity now towards self reporting and, and being open and upfront about

00:24:24.740 mental health issues to keep, uh, trouble from being driven underground where it could cause,

00:24:31.700 uh, some sort of accident or, you know, some, something awful. Um, that being said, I mean,

00:24:40.260 there are people with mental health issues in every line of work from, uh, surgeons, police officers,

00:24:47.300 airline pilots, uh, whomever. Um, it's, it's very important to emphasize that you're very important

00:24:52.500 that, that having a mental health issue, having even depression, uh, does not turn you into a

00:24:59.140 psychopathic mass murderer. Um, for that to happen, there has to be something else going on.

00:25:05.700 Um, what it is, I don't know how, how is that diagnosed? How is that, uh, discovered? Uh, how

00:25:12.660 do we know who those outliers are? What do you do? Like when you get on board the plane, when you guys

00:25:17.380 fly commercially, you know, my friend mentioned this before, my, my friend, she's always giving the

00:25:22.180 pilots boxes of chocolates. Like, yeah, that's not going to save you. Okay. But she does. How,

00:25:27.540 what do you guys do when you get on board the plane? Do you look at the pilot? Like this is

00:25:31.300 something that's going to be running through the minds of people. I realize it's a, it's like the

00:25:34.820 chance of getting hit by lightning. It's extremely remote, but like, it's going to be through us,

00:25:39.540 us nervous flyers through our heads. The next time we get on board a plane, uh, Captain Steve,

00:25:43.220 what do you think? Well, Maggie, we've talked to a lot about this on my channel. I'm coming up to my

00:25:47.460 retirement date in three months and I'm, you know, just because I turned 65, it's I'm done. And it's

00:25:53.460 kind of a one size fits all position. But I tell people, look, when you get on an airplane and you

00:25:58.340 can look up into the cockpit, you don't care what gender the person is. You don't care what

00:26:01.940 color their skin is. What you're looking for is a little bit of gray hair. And if you see gray hair,

00:26:06.980 that reassures you. If you see somebody up there that looks like it's one of your teenage daughter's

00:26:12.740 dates, it's, it's not cause for your teenage daughter. You know, again, you know, and I was young

00:26:20.900 at one point I get it, but I also wasn't the captain at that point over the years I've aged.

00:26:26.100 And I think it's a little bit of gray hair is reassuring, especially in a position where you're

00:26:31.300 sitting in the back and you're trusting somebody basically with your life.

00:26:35.380 Yeah. Although the older one here is the one who is allegedly culpable and the younger one who was

00:26:40.500 32, the, the co-pilot was 32, who was flying a plane, first officer. And the guy, you know,

00:26:45.620 being as possibly accused as 56, go ahead, Patrick, you're going to say something.

00:26:48.980 I would somewhat disagree with that. I understand that it's reassuring to people,

00:26:53.460 but it's also not necessarily meaningful. Um, you know, there are a lot of younger,

00:26:57.860 uh, fully qualified, excellent airline pilots out there. So, uh, the extrapolation you made maybe

00:27:05.860 without meaning to is that, you know, younger pilots aren't as safe as older pilots. And I just,

00:27:11.860 I just can't, I can't accept that. Well, it didn't, I'm not saying that they're,

00:27:15.940 they're, they're not qualified. What they lack is the, the experience and the judgment.

00:27:20.420 And that's what you pay for with, with the captain on an airliner is somebody that's been around the

00:27:25.460 block a couple of times that can say a certain times, slow down. That's, that's the experience.

00:27:32.420 I should tell our audience a little bit about you, Captain Steve, because I neglected to do that,

00:27:36.740 but you joined the Navy after college graduation, you were commissioned and trained as a pilot back in

00:27:40.420 83, 84 commercial pilot for 40 years. Um, and you were initially scheduled to fly American airline

00:27:46.980 flight 11 on September 11th, 2001, the first plane that hit the world trade center. My God,

00:27:52.580 I didn't know that that is really scheduled to be the first officer on that flight. And due to kind of

00:27:58.660 an extraordinary circumstance, I was bumped from the flight the night before. Uh, and there's a

00:28:04.660 documentary called in my seat that's available on YouTube that tells my story, but I travel now all

00:28:10.340 around the world, uh, talking about living on borrowed time. So that, that was my near death

00:28:15.060 experience. Uh, but yeah, it, it kind of gives you chills on the back of your neck thinking about, uh,

00:28:20.500 how close it was to being, uh, the, the, basically the pilot on the first airplane that flew into the

00:28:26.180 first world trade center. Yeah. I want to drop anchor a little bit on the, on the, on the mental

00:28:33.380 health stuff, not to freak the, uh, flying public out even more. Uh, pilots are either gods and we're

00:28:39.940 flawless or, or we're not, which clearly we're not. Megan, if you go to your FAA doc or, or as

00:28:46.020 Steve will know, you know, in, in, in the Navy flying fighters, we had a flight surgeon. Of course,

00:28:50.980 the flight surgeon would say, Hey, if anything's wrong with you, you make sure you come and tell me

00:28:54.980 that was the last person on this planet. We would tell anything was wrong to why,

00:29:00.540 because then we're grounded and we're not flying and we're not doing the one thing that's probably

00:29:04.740 making us happy. So if you tell your FAA doctor and your annual physical or every six months or

00:29:10.540 whatever it is like, Hey, I'm not feeling too good. I'm a little depressed. Guess what's going to

00:29:14.020 happen. You're going to get immediately grounded most likely. And you're put over in this filing

00:29:18.880 cabinet. And it's an absolute nightmare. Megan, this is one of the reasons I started the No

00:29:24.160 Fallen Heroes Foundation four years ago, uh, is because of aviation, uh, mental health. We have

00:29:29.800 got to hide anything that's wrong with us. You're going to lose your job or potentially your, your

00:29:36.040 license. It is a perverse system right now where pilots are forced to either self-medicate drink,

00:29:43.720 hide what's wrong with them or lose their job until the FAA steps up and says, Hey, we're going to

00:29:49.600 have a no kidding, serious conversation about this pilots and mental health is, is, uh, is the

00:29:55.240 elephant in the room that nobody's really talking about. That is really terrifying and makes perfect

00:29:59.920 sense. What you're saying is that my friend needs to board the air aircraft with like a pot of coffee

00:30:04.180 and maybe a breathalyzer. I like, well, you know, real quick, you know, Sully and Miracle and the

00:30:11.400 Hudson and everything like that, obviously a great aviator did some good stuff. It's funny in the movie

00:30:16.400 because they're like, Oh, Hey, they kept doing the count. Like, Hey, we saved this many. I got to be

00:30:20.260 honest with you, Megan. Maybe I'm just speaking for me. If both engines flamed out and I'm Sully

00:30:25.000 guess who I care about in that moment. Me, all interest is self-interest. The fact that I saved 150

00:30:32.060 people sitting behind me is gravy. But remember, unless you're a suicidal captain as potentially in

00:30:38.260 this case, if something goes wrong with the airplane, I'm caring about me right now. And my beautiful

00:30:42.960 bride, my kids. Oh, and everybody else too. If they do a documentary about it.

00:30:47.480 Well, we have to find out. I don't know whether he had a family or what they obviously there's

00:30:51.240 one report suggested he had a mother who died recently. There was an interesting report about

00:30:55.160 this, this captain, um, from a long time ago. This is in the wall street journal. They said that

00:31:01.080 he started his flying career in the early 1990s. He attended the Indira Gandhi Academy. It's a

00:31:06.360 prestigious flight school, uh, run in India that, um, a friend of his who overlapped with him for

00:31:11.840 one year in flight school flight school said he stood out among their classmates, very polite,

00:31:15.940 never cursed, never drank alcohol, spoke softly, so softly that sometimes they had difficulty hearing

00:31:21.180 him. I had to ask him to speak louder. Unlike other students, messy quarters, Sabrawal kept a

00:31:26.340 Spartan room filled with the bare minimum. If you open his cupboard, said the friend, there were two

00:31:31.020 formal shirts, two t-shirts, two pairs of shoes, one slippers and one bag. So it wouldn't be unusual,

00:31:37.180 I think, to find a pilot who's meticulous, um, then figuring out where, if at all, he turned

00:31:43.380 homicidal, uh, is a different question altogether. Can I ask you something was on Patrick's point of

00:31:50.300 like, if you wanted to bring down the plane, this doesn't really seem like the way you would do it.

00:31:55.840 Like the, you know, it is strange to like, it's all on cam, you know, as opposed to the MH370 guy who

00:32:02.660 it's never been confirmed. We can't cause the plane disappeared that that was a murder suicide.

00:32:07.120 But I agree that that's overwhelmingly likely what, what happened. Um, he, he got the plane out over

00:32:12.860 the Indian ocean, which is huge and vast. And you, you know, you're guaranteed to kill everybody to

00:32:17.940 have almost no evidence of it. Like why, if you were going to do this, would you do it so soon after

00:32:23.560 takeoff and in an area where there's a field right there where maybe it could be recovered by the

00:32:28.860 co-pilot or something could happen. Uh, Megan, that, that airliner was gliding like a set of

00:32:33.740 car keys at that point. That's exactly when you, uh, want to do it. It created, it was enough time

00:32:39.160 where they, like Captain Steve said, just got airborne and immediately the engine shut off and

00:32:43.580 it's going to settle, uh, right back down any higher altitude, unless he knocks out the first

00:32:48.420 officer, the FO is going to have time to put those switches back. There's a horrific 10 second delay.

00:32:54.440 God bless the first officer for, Whoa, what are you doing? Remember Megan in the West,

00:32:59.240 we, we got rid of the Imperial captain years ago. Like you can't question the captain and

00:33:03.920 they're a God on the flight deck. We don't do that in the West. In some of these other countries,

00:33:08.380 Asian and, uh, Indian, the captain is still kind of revered as a guy. So you can tell in that 10

00:33:13.800 seconds, maybe that the FO was like, what are you doing? Why did you do that? And then the guy just

00:33:18.860 kind of sitting there as the plane's descending into the neighborhood, the FO puts the switches back on.

00:33:24.280 Maybe if he had done it a little bit quicker, he could have gotten some thrust. So we're never going to

00:33:28.800 be able to know until we all transition and meet this guy again, why he did this. It's just,

00:33:34.700 you know, I don't think he's going to be in the same place you and I are.

00:33:37.820 And it's interesting because some people online are like, well, he, he replied with, Oh, I, I

00:33:44.800 didn't. Hey man, if you're about to commit murder, suicide, telling the truth probably isn't high on

00:33:51.000 your list of things to do in that moment. So clearly. And he knew there'd be a black box

00:33:54.640 recorder. He knew it was being recorded. Correct. Go ahead, Steve. And you're, you're asking why

00:34:00.040 with a rational mind, we're trying to make sense out of something that's completely irrational.

00:34:06.080 Now, when he stepped over that line, none of us is really ever going to know. But what we do know

00:34:10.700 is that what he did was completely psychotic and it doesn't make any sense. But I agree that that's

00:34:17.100 the, if you're going to do what he did, that's the perfect place to do it. 200 feet off the ground,

00:34:21.520 there's no recovery from that. And that airplane is going to crash. And most likely everybody's going

00:34:26.420 to die. I think he was just thinking about himself in that moment clearly. And, but the rational mind

00:34:32.180 tries to make sense of the irrational and it doesn't, it doesn't work. It doesn't. I'll get

00:34:36.560 your last word, Patrick. Go ahead. So why glide onto the roof of the building? Why not simply push

00:34:42.580 the nose down and crash into the ground at that point? Why, why the glide? I'm not saying it didn't

00:34:50.180 happen that way, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. And meanwhile here, I want to point out,

00:34:57.480 I think where the whole conversation is veering in a little bit of a sensationalist direction. And I

00:35:03.560 don't want people to have this idea that when you get onto a commercial flight, you should start

00:35:09.160 psychoanalyzing your pilots in the hierarchy. It's not that you should. My point was, I will.

00:35:15.420 The idea that your pilot is going to crash the plane is, is like so out there among the possibilities

00:35:21.540 and things you should be thinking about. Hey Megan, real quick after 9-11, there's a famous story

00:35:29.740 of a U S air captain in Philadelphia. I love the Jersey shore reference. I was born and raised in

00:35:34.760 Margate. So nice job there, but this guy was in Philly and he went through TSA. Do you remember when

00:35:39.540 they were stealing, you know, tweezers and fingernail clippers? Well, they took his fingernail

00:35:44.420 clippers and he looked at the TSA agent or whatever and said, go ahead and take that. I have

00:35:49.560 these. And he held his hands up. He's like, I don't need my nail clippers to take the plane down.

00:35:54.440 I have these. Guess what happened? They threw that guy in jail and it took the union like a couple of

00:35:59.440 days to get him out and fight like two or three years to get his job back. So he said, I have these,

00:36:06.080 I don't need a fingernail clipper. So I know I said that Patrick was going to have to the last word,

00:36:10.240 but I know because he raised some interesting points. No, no, no. Cause he raised some interesting

00:36:13.940 points. Like I love to hear you respond, Captain Steven. Why wouldn't he just put it in a nosedive

00:36:17.820 and take it down? That's actually a good question. Well, again, we're trying to make rational sense

00:36:22.640 out of something that's completely irrational. Maybe he's fantasized about turning the fuel control

00:36:27.040 switches to cut off. They were placed one second apart from each other, which is consistent with the

00:36:32.200 way we turn them on and turn them off. It's a one handed operation. One, two, it goes like that.

00:36:36.880 So he probably was fantasizing over that on some level, thinking about just watching the airplane

00:36:42.220 descend. They, the reports are that I guess, apparently he was very calm in this. He was

00:36:48.140 the only one on that airplane, apparently that knew what was coming next. If I was the first officer,

00:36:52.900 I would absolutely be in a panic about it. You're, you're, you're transitioning from flying out

00:36:58.520 normally to what just happened. The, the, the fact that the first officer had the presence of mind to

00:37:04.140 reach down and put them back to the run position is semi-incredible in my mind. Good on him for

00:37:10.160 doing that. He almost, almost saved the day because of where it was done. It was done so low

00:37:16.900 that there was really no recovering from it. Megan, with the German wings, remember what the

00:37:21.480 German wings guy did lock, lock the cockpit captain's beat and trying to break down the door.

00:37:25.420 He put the autopilot in a gentle descent and flew into the Alps. So why didn't I'll answer a question,

00:37:32.920 Patrick's question with a question? Why didn't the, that guy just roll the plane inverted and

00:37:37.040 fly straight into the ground? He put it into a gentle descent. Like captain Steve just said,

00:37:41.100 maybe he had some sort of weird fetish about, I'm just going to watch this thing slowly fly into the

00:37:44.800 side of a mountain. So again, you can't question crazy. Can I, can I ask this one of the other

00:37:51.000 question? What about the survivor? Do you think he could be important? You know, like there's a survivor.

00:37:57.560 Right. Unlikely, he was seated right in front of the wingspar, which is the heaviest, strongest part

00:38:04.960 of the airplane. It's a steel girder, basically right behind where he was. And that probably took

00:38:09.300 most of the impact. The fact that he said, one of the initial reports was that he heard a loud bang

00:38:16.360 and the lights flickered. That would be consistent with the Ram air turbine deployed. Eyewitnesses in that

00:38:22.440 situation are not necessarily reliable, but with all the other information we have that his account fits

00:38:28.940 with the deployment of the rats. So he's one part of this that, that seems to be accurate with the whole

00:38:34.820 transition of what took place in those basically 60 seconds. Megan, if he was in that, having observed

00:38:41.160 the pilot in, in a sort of mental state are very slim, I think. Go ahead, Wiz. Well, if, if he was in our

00:38:47.540 fighter squadron, his call sign would be Highlander. You have galos humor. So do we. So you got to cut

00:38:53.040 that guy's head off to kill him clearly. Uh, so his new call signs Highlander. It's true. When you're,

00:38:57.880 you're in a dangerous business, you're actually in one. I just report on, on many. And so you have to

00:39:02.640 go to that. Otherwise you're just, you're crying every day. Guys. Thank you. Um, Patrick, we gave you a

00:39:07.640 hard time, but you kept the discussion interesting with your different. That's my job. Okay.

00:39:10.860 Thanks to all of you. All the best. Wow. What a story. My God. So disturbing. I totally accept that

00:39:20.920 the odds of this happening to you are incredibly small and it is not something that you need to

00:39:25.340 worry about at all. But then you think about what Wiz was saying about the mental health screening and

00:39:29.960 how it's not set up to encourage honesty and transparency from our pilots. And you think,

00:39:34.720 well, there is an action point here that we need to really think about. Thankfully, we've got Sean

00:39:39.220 Duffy running a transportation. So maybe this is something that we can actually message. We can

00:39:44.120 get to him. This did not happen in America. This happened in India, but you know, there,

00:39:48.040 but for the grace of God, um, God rest those souls. All right. We'll be right back with our friends

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00:41:01.740 Whole Foods, Walmart, CVS, and Walgreens. Joining me today for the rest of the show to react to all of

00:41:09.880 today's headlines are our pals from the fifth column, Camille Foster, editor-at-large of Tangle

00:41:15.200 News and Matt Welsh of Reason Magazine. Moynihan is scrambling to make it. That'll be the drama that

00:41:21.780 takes us through the next hour. Will he or won't he? But in the meantime, you can find all of their

00:41:26.780 work at we the fifth, um, uh, dot com. Okay. And you can subscribe there too. Guys. Great to see

00:41:32.760 you. It's a pleasure. Um, I want to start with, do we have the, do we, do we have the, um, Mark

00:41:38.040 Halperin site? You guys, my team. Okay. Oh, all right. Standby. I have it in front of me. So I went

00:41:43.100 on with my pal, Mark Halperin on his next up show this morning. We taped it before I taped my show.

00:41:48.160 Well, we're doing this live and, um, Halperin is everywhere. He does that show and he does two way

00:41:53.500 and he's like, you know, whatever. And apparently on his two way show today. And even in our

00:41:58.440 interview, he raised this with me and I knew what he was talking about, but I want to tell

00:42:02.220 you what happened on two way. He said the following everyone I know believes a major newspaper. One of

00:42:07.520 the top three newspapers in the country is about to publish a piece about president Trump's

00:42:11.380 relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. Everyone I know knows that. And people in the white house know

00:42:15.960 that too. When that story drops, if it drops today, and some people think it might, it could drive

00:42:21.420 the day. Then he asks the following questions to Dan Turrentine and Sean Spicer. Either answer

00:42:26.440 them or say, in fact, we don't know how did Trump and Jeffrey Epstein meet? I don't know. They say

00:42:30.400 to Trump every go to Jeffrey Epstein's townhouse. Yes. It's not a townhouse is mentioned. How many

00:42:35.400 times? I believe many. What occasions one-on-one parties? What did he go for? I don't know. Okay.

00:42:39.720 He's just asking these questions. It's fine. These guys don't know. I think I know the answers to a

00:42:43.640 lot of these and I answered them on Halperin show. So if you want to hear my answers,

00:42:47.180 you can tune into next up. Um, not that I'm some expert on Epstein. I've just

00:42:51.240 been neck deep and all of these reports over the past, you know, a couple of weeks for obvious

00:42:55.160 reasons, but I can tell, I don't know why we're afraid to say it's the wall street journal.

00:42:59.120 Um, maybe that will turn out to be untrue, but I've been told by multiple sources that the journal

00:43:03.800 is working on a piece on Trump and Epstein. And guys, there's no question in my mind that, um,

00:43:11.660 there's going to be a lot there because they knew each other for 15 years. They were actually close

00:43:15.140 friends for 15 years prior to Epstein's troubles. And, um, I'm sure they did spend a lot of time

00:43:21.460 together, but what does that tell us? And he spent a lot of time with a lot of luminaries and they

00:43:26.400 weren't all pedophiles, right? It's like a lot of them, some of them were women. It was the Dalai Lama

00:43:32.880 was over at Epstein's house. Um, Michael Wolf just told Vicki Ward that a couple of days ago and we could go

00:43:39.500 on. So what it's not, it doesn't make Trump look bad or it doesn't incriminate him in any way that

00:43:45.620 he was friends with the guy. He's already admitted that the question is, are you going to produce

00:43:49.840 evidence that Trump took advantage of an underaged girl? Now, if they're there, then we're talking a

00:43:56.760 scandal, but honestly, if, if somebody's got that proof, we would have seen it by now. Would we not?

00:44:03.340 Yeah. The Biden administration had access to all of these files, at least the Biden justice department

00:44:11.240 did whether or not the president or any of his people looked at it, the possibility that this

00:44:16.340 information, this damning incriminating information that would have devastated Donald Trump's future

00:44:21.280 prospects for its politician, or perhaps even brought him under criminal suspicion, the likelihood

00:44:26.660 that that would not have already come out years ago is unbelievably low. I just can't imagine it.

00:44:33.100 We've seen leaks of absolutely everything else. We've seen legal trials, um, that have been

00:44:38.220 completely prosecuted on much thinner, thinner, thinner, less sensational grounds. We would have

00:44:44.000 seen this already. So that doesn't seem to be what's hidden here or obscured anyways.

00:44:48.440 E. Jean Carroll accused him of rape, which was a completely bullshit allegation. Um, I don't believe

00:44:55.580 one word that E. Jean Carroll said, but Trump is on camera with the, you know, you can grab him by the P word

00:45:00.820 and they let you get away with it when you're a celebrity. So it's like the fact that Trump might

00:45:05.460 have had a handsy forties and fifties or even earlier than that. I don't know. It's not going to

00:45:12.560 come as a huge shock, Matt, but it's, if there were proof that he had a thing for underaged girls,

00:45:18.800 you don't think we'd know that by now? I think we would know that. I think the potential political

00:45:24.160 damage of this story and let's keep in mind the wall street journal was not alone, but they were

00:45:29.820 ahead of the pack mostly in writing about the Biden white house operation bubble wrap, uh, cover up

00:45:36.100 for, uh, months and years. They did. Wait, is that a real term or are you just saying that? Cause I love

00:45:40.800 that. No, no, that was the term. That was the term among, uh, both of the journal and the New York

00:45:45.760 times reporting about Joe Biden. That's awesome. We've talked about on this show, uh, they use

00:45:53.760 operation bubble wrap to describe the, uh, Dr. Jill Biden kind of, uh, initiative. And maybe we'll

00:45:58.320 even talk about that later on in the episode, who knows? But, uh, so anyways, they, it's wall street

00:46:02.460 journals does good reporting, uh, period. But right now it, the, I think the fact of the matter, uh,

00:46:08.580 about the politics of this is that Trump is facing a political challenge, the likes of which he

00:46:13.600 hasn't really seen in a good while, which is that some people in his base are like, I don't know,

00:46:18.620 dude, I don't like how you're, you're handling this, or I don't like how your administration

00:46:21.800 is handling this. And at a time when there's a lot of people who are more of the independent

00:46:27.420 bent, uh, among, uh, people in media, uh, the conservative media, uh, podcasts and sub stack

00:46:34.140 who are dissatisfied with the level of disclosure so far in, uh, Epstein related information from the

00:46:41.160 justice department, having the story drop, um, to remind you of what we already know on the record

00:46:46.660 is that he does have a relationship as does a lot of people, including several people that all three

00:46:51.720 of us know, uh, have like been to Epstein's Island, um, and, or have, uh, had interactions with him,

00:46:57.060 scientists and people like that. Um, but the timing of that information at a time when there's these

00:47:02.880 struggles between Pam Bondi and Dan Bongino, uh, and when there are people who haven't gone full Charlie

00:47:08.800 Kirk, um, in, in that they haven't gotten a call from the president and said, okay, I'll stop talking

00:47:13.240 about it. People are still talking about it on the right. Well, he, Charlie is too. He did, he had that

00:47:18.340 one day of like, I'm not doing it. And then the next two days, his shows have been heavily on Charlie,

00:47:22.780 which is not something that I say every single day. Uh, but Trump just went out and called those

00:47:27.540 people on the right. And within MAGA who are talking about it still, he called them a bunch of

00:47:33.260 losers. He said he's lost bad people who are weaklings, uh, weaklings, and that they're working for the

00:47:38.340 fake news. And that this is all like a fake news plot or a liberal, the democratic, uh, plot that

00:47:44.260 you fell for, uh, it's a hoax and et cetera. It's going to be really interesting against that backdrop

00:47:49.240 to see, uh, what those people do. You have just been insulted by the president. I don't know,

00:47:54.520 Megan, if you know this, but sometimes Donald Trump insults people in the media, um, on the right.

00:48:00.120 It's a day ending in Y.

00:48:01.900 Um, so I will say for the record, my advice to all those people who are on the right is

00:48:08.960 just keep doing your thing. Like you, you can't, you can't run a show that way, a journalistic

00:48:16.140 outfit. You really can't run that way. President Trump will get mad at any journalist who is doing

00:48:21.420 their job. And I, I don't forget the fake news. They got their own issues, but I mean, honest

00:48:25.920 reporters who actually like Trump and are fair to Trump and you just, you know, it's part of being a

00:48:31.040 journalist. You are disliked more than you're liked. And that's just the way it goes. If you're

00:48:34.960 doing your job, right. Yeah. I mean, there's, it seems to me though, without having seen the

00:48:39.560 wall street journal reporting or the reporting from whomever is going to be publishing this story,

00:48:44.020 there's no possibility that we would be talking about this or that this story would be coming out

00:48:48.380 if there was not this profound mishandling of the disclosures related to the Epstein investigation.

00:48:54.860 Like everything about this has gone badly for the administration. The messaging around it has been

00:49:00.680 absolutely terrible. Like someone should absolutely lose their job about over it,

00:49:05.540 whether or not it happens this week or a couple of weeks from now is, is the only question I suppose

00:49:10.000 that actually, actually ought to be seriously entertained, but they mishandled this. Like

00:49:14.960 one doesn't have to believe any sort of conspiracy theories to look at the situation,

00:49:18.380 to raise an eyebrow and say, what on earth is going on over there? Who is responsible for

00:49:23.960 actually talking to the public? When, when I think about like, Oh, I don't know what they have.

00:49:28.520 Is it a picture of Trump with like a young girl? Like it's not going to be with some, you know,

00:49:33.080 really young girl, but let's say like as a 17 year old girl, um, if that had come out,

00:49:38.380 if they have that and that comes out on any other day, it'd be like, all right, whatever. You know,

00:49:44.680 everybody knows that Trump was a bit of a playboy when he was younger. You know, he's had multiple

00:49:48.820 wives. He was a man about town when he was younger and it wouldn't have been a total yawn,

00:49:55.660 but it would have been mostly a yawn. Certainly his supporters would not have given two figs about

00:50:01.460 that, but now would be a terrible time for that to drop because of the way this is all snowballed

00:50:08.700 into like, why is he so adamant about not releasing another document? And then if they drop this story

00:50:15.840 with that kind of thing, now it could potentially hurt him because now even his own supporters have

00:50:21.240 been insulted for actually caring about child, you know, issues, including potentially sexual abuse.

00:50:27.720 And then you see that and you think, oh, how much is there in this lane? And what does that explain?

00:50:32.900 I'll give you the last thought on that. Whoever wants to take it in the 30 seconds we have before

00:50:36.200 a break. Just to say that, that Trump has over the last 10 years successfully, uh, used insult comedy

00:50:43.160 to kind of bring his base into line and into check most famously in my point of view with the house

00:50:48.860 freedom caucus, which started off as an antagonist. And then he whipped them into line by the end of

00:50:52.720 2017. Can he do that with his base? Um, uh, uh, people who are independent in media, we are going

00:50:59.340 to find out. Yeah. We're in the process of finding out. Okay. Be right back with the fifth column.

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00:52:02.560 That's riverbend ranch.com promo code M E G Y N back with me now, two of the three Camille Foster and

00:52:13.820 Matt Welsh of the fifth column. I mean, Moynihan's not here. So I think we can, we can just say that

00:52:18.340 the two best, the best. Yeah. We can say that anytime. He's very busy trying to get his name scrubbed

00:52:24.300 off certain flight logs. I didn't really understand the exact thing, but hopefully it'll be finished.

00:52:28.960 You never know. He's a bomb vivant. I mean, who knows where he's been? Um, my team did send me

00:52:35.560 this. It's just for what it's worth. Okay. Michael Wolf, like he he's like, to me, he's like a Gabe

00:52:42.260 Sherman type where like 50% of what he writes is explosive and spot on and jaw dropping. And the

00:52:48.900 other fifth is totally made up. That's my own impression. Um, and he, but he gets all these very,

00:52:54.900 very famous billionaire type people to let him follow them around like a fly on the wall,

00:53:00.280 you know, like the Murdochs and many others. And then they all regret doing it. Trump.

00:53:05.040 Anyway, he dropped a book, um, not long ago called too famous, like T O O. And he wrote this in the

00:53:11.940 book. The FBI did not list in its findings of the Epstein residence search, a set of pictures that

00:53:19.800 Epstein sometimes removed from the safe to show friends a dozen or so snapshots from shortly before

00:53:26.680 their quarrel in 2004 of Donald Trump at Epstein's Palm beach home, posing with a variety of young

00:53:33.220 women in various stages of undress, some topless sitting on his lap, touching his hair, laughing

00:53:39.200 and pointing at a suggestive stain on the front of the future president's pants. Now that's,

00:53:44.980 that's Michael Wolf. Yeah. So I have no idea whether any of that is true, but again,

00:53:50.820 you know, this has been out there. And if this is now, somebody who's going to produce this photo,

00:53:56.780 I, my first question will be, where'd you get it? What other photos of Jeffrey Epstein's do you have?

00:54:01.100 And why haven't they been made public before now? Um, that would be the kind of thing Trump wouldn't

00:54:06.660 want hitting, but that doesn't prove he molested anybody. And let's not forget that one of Epstein's

00:54:12.100 lawyers, not Dershowitz, the other guy whose name is escaping me right now, but he is on the record

00:54:17.120 as saying there's nothing. Jeffrey Epstein had nothing on Donald Trump. I asked him, I specifically

00:54:24.340 asked Epstein whether he had anything on Trump and the answer was no. So that lawyer also has worked

00:54:29.420 for Donald Trump, correct? Correct. Like, yes, but it's one thing to show like the president,

00:54:35.840 you know, the current president, but then, you know, the, he owned a beauty pageant and he was just

00:54:40.460 like a rich guy. It's sort of frolicking about with young girls. And I don't, I mean, the stain is

00:54:46.460 just, that's so nasty. Uh, if they're all making fun of it and having fun with it on camera, the odds

00:54:50.860 are it's an absolute nothing burger. And just like, you know, these are people letting off some steam,

00:54:55.140 having fun, not thinking he's going to be the future president. I can see why Trump would be

00:54:59.380 like, yeah, that's not ideal. I'm not going to be putting that out or I don't want to invite

00:55:02.680 somebody to put that out. But again, it sounds like that's not in the government's possession,

00:55:06.400 that that's in somebody who knew Epstein's possession because it was not seized. That's

00:55:11.800 Michael Wolf's point, not seized. So this is some private individual. Could it be Michael Wolf? I

00:55:16.900 have no idea who's been holding onto it. Um, for however long Michael Wolf dropped tapes of Epstein

00:55:23.320 right before the presidential election. They just didn't get any attention because we were focused

00:55:28.520 on saving the world and he couldn't stop Trump's reelection with his last 11th hour hit piece on Trump.

00:55:35.740 And it had to do with Epstein in any event. That's where things stand. Any thoughts on that,

00:55:39.760 on the picture, on the details? Wolf, uh, it's a 50, 50, it's a 75, 25. I'm not sure in what

00:55:45.860 direction I would go probably 25, 75, um, uh, with his veracity. He's just been historically kind of

00:55:52.940 loose and sloppy, but he also does have access. So it's always buyer beware. Um, I would caution that

00:55:59.100 if there is a photo, anything like what you described, that's trouble for Trump. There's such a

00:56:03.820 difference between visuals and non-visuals. Um, and this is going to sound like a strange comparison,

00:56:10.060 but I'm going to make it anyways, uh, with the Abu Ghraib photos, right? The prison that the U S,

00:56:15.100 uh, uh, military ran in Iraq and abused prisoners. And it was bad. Uh, when those first photos came

00:56:21.980 out, it was awful. America had a reckoning, a long, uh, a conversation. Then candidate Barack Obama said,

00:56:28.940 when I'm president, we're going to release the rest of them. And then when he became president,

00:56:33.740 he changed his mind. Um, partly because, and their stated, uh, reason was not that Barack Obama was in

00:56:40.820 the photos, but like, this is going to make life difficult. The Abu Ghraib, uh, photos changed or

00:56:46.080 impacted American foreign policy. Uh, and, uh, it absolutely cut into trust for the government and the

00:56:52.020 military and a bunch of other things besides, um, it makes things uncomfortable. So it's just the

00:56:56.220 visuals of seeing this. There can be totally documented center. How would you recommend he

00:57:00.340 handle it, Matt? Like at this point, if, if, you know, he were taking your advice on what to do

00:57:05.500 right now, what would it be? My advice is not for the health of the political prospects of any

00:57:11.460 sitting politician. My advice is I want to see everything, um, as long as it doesn't abuse the

00:57:17.340 individual rights of some of the people in the images. And it certainly would not abuse Donald Trump's

00:57:22.580 individual rights to have that, that released in any shape or form. I want to see all those photos.

00:57:27.320 I want to see the rest of the Abu Ghraib photos too. Not that I relish looking at them. I want the

00:57:31.800 maximum transparency. And let's just remember that again, regardless of what one thinks about,

00:57:36.560 um, you know, the, the Epstein files being a skeleton key towards everything. And I don't

00:57:42.020 at all think that, um, one can look at the real reporting from people like Julie Brown,

00:57:47.360 heroic reporting at the Miami Herald that basically reopened the case in 2019 because of them

00:57:52.220 working hard to uncover previously covered up files, not even covered up just unreleased

00:57:56.740 files. We should be in favor of transparency. And one reason that Pam Bondi is rightly in

00:58:03.320 the crosshairs in my opinion, uh, right now is that she could have said in February, she

00:58:08.280 could have said, I'm in favor of transparency. Um, and we're going to see and do the serious

00:58:13.320 work to try to, to release as many files as possible. And we'll go over which names need

00:58:18.480 to be redacted and which don't. And that's difficult work. And we're going to do this also

00:58:21.320 in light of Jelaine Maxwell has a, an open, um, appeals process going and you don't want

00:58:26.300 to jeopardize that. That's not what she did. She invited influencers to the white house and

00:58:29.640 gave him trapper keeper. The fan service, not transparency. And then when those fans

00:58:36.860 and they read phase one, they were phase one, like there were more phases.

00:58:40.660 They did. They did. I'm so there's two things that I want to say, one of which I'm actually

00:58:45.240 a little nervous to say, and I kind of don't want to say it, but I may say it anyways.

00:58:47.920 But the first thing, the first thing is perhaps a disagreement with you, Matt. I, I, I love

00:58:54.340 transparency. Secrecy is for losers.

00:58:56.060 This is what makes you guys the top two. Just FYI. Keep going.

00:59:00.980 Thank you. Thank you. The secrecy is for losers, et cetera, et cetera. That said that there is

00:59:06.520 a reality here. Like libertarians are both concerned about transparency and checking government

00:59:11.800 power, but also checking government's ability to abuse that power. And in a high profile investigation

00:59:17.340 like this, what we all know is that if your name is published, even in a totally innocent

00:59:23.420 way, because of your own personal affiliation with Epstein, which might not have been criminal

00:59:27.620 in any sort of nature whatsoever to have it publicized in a sloppy way or at all, even in

00:59:34.120 this particular climate is tantamount to accusing you of something really, really nefarious.

00:59:39.580 So I appreciate the restraint on the part of judges who've been involved in this case.

00:59:45.380 And now, even with respect to federal disclosures, that's at least a worthwhile consideration.

00:59:50.300 Now, that's a bit of a nuanced point. It just kind of brings two things in tension.

00:59:53.740 Now, the other thing that I want to say that I'm a little reluctant to say, but I can't be

00:59:57.340 the first person to think this is why the hell haven't we seen some AI generated video

01:00:02.660 of Donald Trump with Epstein or even AI generated photo of it? It would be so easy to do,

01:00:07.540 especially when you have things like this out. You would expect it to spread like wildfire. It is

01:00:13.920 just odd to me that something like that hasn't happened yet. I don't necessarily want it to. In

01:00:19.120 fact, I don't want it to, but it is interesting. Adam Schiff is in his basement right now creating

01:00:23.320 it. He's personally stitching it together. I'm sure it's going to hit soon. I don't know if he has

01:00:28.700 the technical prowess, but I believe he has the motive for sure. Here's the tweet I was referring to

01:00:33.280 the guy. It's the lawyer, David Schoen, S-C-H-O-E-N, who did later, uh, he represented

01:00:38.380 Trump. I think, uh, maybe it was at the first impeachment trial earlier. I guess I should say

01:00:43.500 he said second impeachment trial. Uh, he said, I, this is a tweet. I was hired to lead Jeffrey

01:00:49.520 Epstein's defense as his criminal lawyer nine days before he died. He sought my advice for months

01:00:54.600 before that. I can say authoritatively, unequivocally, and definitively that he had no

01:01:00.120 information to hurt president Trump. I specifically asked him exclamation point. So that's, you know,

01:01:07.100 as close as we're going to get to hearing from Epstein himself, that he didn't have any real

01:01:11.760 compromise on Trump. And if there's a picture, okay, fine. It'll keep tongues wagging. But look,

01:01:17.580 the reason why I really think, I don't know how long this goes on. You know, if, if there's a drip,

01:01:22.960 drip, drip in the journal or whoever else, and like the problem for Trump is now the left wing is

01:01:26.600 suddenly interested in Epstein, you know, like these absolute cretins who had absolutely nothing,

01:01:31.640 not a care for who might've been hurt behind the scenes by, you know, some pedophile ring or just

01:01:36.280 freaks who hung out with Epstein. Now, suddenly there are everyone's savior. Like, Oh, I'm on it.

01:01:40.740 I'm on it. In fact, there was an extraordinary exchange on morning Joe where Jamie Raskin, a villain

01:01:45.240 went on to his credit. Scarborough asked him something along these lines. Look what happened.

01:01:50.020 The congressman could have gotten that from 21 to 25 when Democrats controlled the DOJ. Why? It was a

01:01:58.800 crisis then. It's a crisis now. Why didn't, why didn't Democrats call for it from 21 to 25?

01:02:06.760 Uh-huh. So, I mean, you have to go back and look specifically at particular prosecutorial decisions

01:02:15.400 um, and what was taking place in terms of the other cases. So, I don't know. We could try to

01:02:21.780 reconstruct that record. But the point is, is that Donald Trump is the one who has led the crusade

01:02:28.400 to say that, uh, that Epstein, who was his very close friend, and there's all kinds of pictures of

01:02:35.200 them. Hmm. He has no answer. Donald Trump did not lead the crusade. Trump's surrogates definitely

01:02:42.320 we're into the Epstein thing. Trump himself has always been very measured. Yeah, family. I'm Don

01:02:47.840 Jr. Yes. I mean, that's true. But how about Jamie Raskin? Uh, I don't know. There, there may have

01:02:52.200 been issues going, but, but Trump, but Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump. I'm not here to

01:02:54.840 relitigate the past. That's why Trump screwed up. But that's, that's Trump's problem now is because

01:02:59.680 forget Jamie Raskin, no one gives a shit what he's thinking or doing. But, you know, now suddenly

01:03:03.660 you're going to have the New York Times like, oh, well, it's a chance to hurt him. Great. And I don't

01:03:08.420 know whether that's going to help or hurt Trump because it's going to generate a lot of additional

01:03:12.700 coverage of it. But as soon as the Times and the Guardian and the Washington Post are on the story

01:03:18.160 and CNN's doing it wall to wall, that's when all of us on the right are going to start defending Trump

01:03:22.440 because we can't stand those people. And it's just too cynical. I mean, without just the, you know,

01:03:29.180 in general, always those legacy media institutions have so much less oomph and power and influence than

01:03:35.680 they used to. So it's always worth keeping in mind. I think what will drive some of this,

01:03:40.460 these headlines, what we're already seeing, which is that Democrats in Congress are going to say,

01:03:44.000 oh, we're going to need to have some hearings on this in August. And the thing is, you know,

01:03:48.260 maybe we should have hearings on this if it means that we need to figure out the behavior,

01:03:52.820 particularly of the Department of Justice way back in 2007, the first time around, like,

01:03:57.360 why did these decisions get made and what were the contours of it or whatever? There might need to be

01:04:03.020 those things. Why did Alex Acosta cut such a sweetheart deal? And by the way, I had Vicky

01:04:08.040 Ward on the show two days ago, the reporter who wrote for Vanity Fair for all those years,

01:04:12.360 and then wrote that piece in the Daily Beast in 2019 saying, I spoke with a member of Trump

01:04:16.640 transition team. That person said they weren't worried about Alex Acosta getting confirmed

01:04:20.720 because he told them the reason I gave Epstein the sweetheart deal is because he belongs to

01:04:25.860 intelligence. This is above my pay grade. Basically, I needed to make it go away. So she stands by that

01:04:31.520 100%. She go back and look at the clip. It's on our YouTube feed right now. She was like,

01:04:34.740 I have absolutely no doubt about my reporting. I stand by it 100%. The person was in the room with

01:04:39.520 Acosta and heard him say it. And I have never gone back even once in Tilla on my reporting. So

01:04:44.280 she's, you know, she stands by her reasons on why Acosta did what he did. And you're right.

01:04:49.620 If we're actually going to have a special counsel, I don't think we're going to have congressional

01:04:52.580 hearings because Dems would have to control the house. Now they might in 2026, but right now they don't.

01:04:58.100 So they can't have hearings. Um, I don't think we will have hearings, but if we were going to,

01:05:02.800 we definitely have to keep 2007, 2008 in the mix. What was, what was George W. Bush's,

01:05:08.540 you know, in the last year, his attorney general doing, why did Alberto Gonzalez or his top team

01:05:15.400 sign off on this? Cause Alex Acosta said main justice vetted everything and approved everything

01:05:21.600 I did. And we know what that means. Now, later he told the office of professional responsibility

01:05:25.420 reportedly we've never seen the actual Q and a that he was, that, that he was not told to drop

01:05:31.580 it because of any intelligence link. So anyway, that's just yet another something that they'd have

01:05:35.680 to look into. All right. I want to shift gears now. This is not an important thing actually before I

01:05:40.500 get to this, but this is my second, this is my, after the plane crash, this is my second favorite

01:05:44.300 story. Um, but before I get to it, I just want to say this. It does occur to me. This is a self

01:05:50.040 inflicted wound because of Pam Bondi. I don't think there's any question. I don't know why she thought

01:05:53.840 it would be a great idea to drop this two page memo in the dark of night in the middle of the

01:05:56.900 summer during a slow news time when people have nothing to chew on, but that right Sunday night

01:06:01.960 for Monday for Monday. Yeah. Yeah. Like if you want to bury a story, you bury a story during a

01:06:07.420 busy news time, not during a slow news time. Um, somebody when Elon and Trump were fighting on

01:06:13.400 Twitter and we were all refreshing our ex, you know, like people addicted to crack, you know,

01:06:19.180 like every two seconds, like refresh, refresh. Somebody tweeted out like, by the way,

01:06:23.120 if you have any bad news, you want to drop it. Now would probably be the time to do it.

01:06:27.520 No one cares. She did the opposite. Um, but I want to say this as we're talking about all this

01:06:34.380 today, uh, national review had the headline that I'll read it to you.

01:06:41.560 Exclusive Trump administration to cut off federal funding to hospitals that provide gender transition

01:06:47.520 services to minors. Yes. Right on. Um, they're in the process right now in the Senate of approving

01:06:54.720 $9 billion worth of doge cuts. It's not the full gamut, but it's a very nice start. That's $9 billion

01:07:01.060 we're going to have in the pocket that we didn't today. One of the other great news stories we'll get

01:07:05.180 to is we appear to be about to defund officially NPR and PBS to the tune of a billion dollars who should

01:07:12.080 not be getting one more penny of taxpayer money in June. Thanks to Trump's tariffs. That's according

01:07:19.380 to NBC, which hates Trump. We had a surplus for the first time in forever in the month of June.

01:07:26.940 Again, thanks to the tariffs, we were not deficit spending in June. We were spending in the black,

01:07:31.280 like, like people who have a budget and are going to live up to it and actually

01:07:34.240 have savings to put away. It doesn't sound like the United States. He just this week signed the

01:07:38.740 halt fentanyl act cracking down on fentanyl and the people who deal it, which is a scourge across

01:07:44.760 America, really devastating to working class communities and, and middle-class communities

01:07:49.380 to across the country. So he's just racked up a ton of wins, a ton of wins and things for which

01:07:55.920 he should be celebrated. So I understand Trump's frustration at having to talk about this cretin,

01:08:03.340 Jeffrey Epstein. Again, for that, he needs to blame Pam Bondi. He doesn't seem like he wants

01:08:10.000 to do that. Anybody want to comment on the Trump W's before we move on to my second favorite story

01:08:14.580 of the day? Just as the libertarian jerk hole here in the corner, uh, you might be slipping out of the

01:08:21.960 number, number one position. I've been on the show before. I know where I belong. Um, and it ain't

01:08:28.380 number one, uh, but, uh, $9 billion operates, operates the federal government for one half of a

01:08:33.620 day. Um, it is, uh, much less than the $500 billion rescissions package that Rand Paul was

01:08:38.920 looking for. Obviously much less than the initial claims of Doge. Um, I like 9 billion. It's better

01:08:44.480 than zero. Um, but it's only 9 billion better than zero. And, uh, I'm glad for the PBS NPR thing,

01:08:51.240 which you alluded to and, uh, and some other things besides, but, uh, I want more government

01:08:56.040 cutting period. And I would co-sign and just say trimming politically, politically divisive

01:09:01.580 things that the federal government is funding. I mean, probably appropriate. The federal government

01:09:06.260 shouldn't be throwing tons and tons of money at things that most Americans aren't particularly

01:09:11.300 interested in. That doesn't make a lot of sense, but we can talk about it. Okay. Um, no, I want to

01:09:17.760 talk about what happened at the Coldplay concert. I'm sorry, but it's everywhere. It's all anybody's

01:09:23.200 talking about, and we just got some news on it. So in an extraordinary chain of events,

01:09:27.940 there was a Coldplay concert and where was the Coldplay concert? I was at Gillette stadium,

01:09:33.800 home to the NFL's new England Patriots in Foxborough, Massachusetts. And here is what happened. They

01:09:40.780 had like the kiss cam kind of thing that goes around and I guess we should play it. Do we have

01:09:45.240 the video, um, that zeroed in on this one couple and I'll describe it for the listening audience,

01:09:50.620 though? I imagine 99% of the audience has seen this clip already. Cause it's gone totally viral.

01:09:54.420 Let's watch it. Yeah. Oh, look at these two. All right. Come on. You're okay. Oh, what?

01:10:02.720 Either they're having an affair or they're just very shy.

01:10:08.780 At the beginning of the clip, it's got the man behind the woman, like holding her with his arms

01:10:12.960 around her and she's swaying in his arms. These are two obvious lovers or in some sort of romantic

01:10:18.620 relationship. Um, it's, it's not how I hold the head of our HR, not existent. We don't have that

01:10:26.720 person, but anyway, it turns out the man is, um, hold on. His name is, he's an astronomer. He's a CEO

01:10:35.280 of a company called astronomer. Andy Byron, I think is his name. Thank you. Thank you. Andy Byron

01:10:41.760 and his HR director who it, that's who he's holding in there. And I'll give you her name too in a

01:10:49.400 second. I got it all in here. I just, it's spread out across my packet. Stand by. This is, if it's my

01:10:55.560 favorite story, I should have been more prepared. Um, oh, it's in the update is in the update. Yeah.

01:10:59.920 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry guys. Bear with me. So much paper and so little time. Okay. His name. Yeah.

01:11:06.340 Is, uh, Andy Byron, B Y R O N. And he's the CEO of a company called astronomer. And that is his

01:11:13.460 chief people officer. Is that what we're calling HR now? That is so weird. Chief people officer,

01:11:21.360 Kristen Cabot, C A B O T. The problem here is that Andy Byron is married to someone other than

01:11:27.380 Kristen Cabot, uh, who again, the irony of her being head of HR, um, and he has two children

01:11:34.340 and it appears that they were caught in what appears to be an affair. And here's the latest

01:11:40.540 reporting. Uh, okay. That Byron and his wife, both 50 live in Northboro, which I think is by

01:11:51.780 Foxborough, Massachusetts. And per Mrs. Space X on X, who is heavily covering and tracking the story.

01:11:57.620 His wife has now deactivated her account. The wife later dropped her married name on her Facebook

01:12:05.080 account to the delight of Mrs. Space X who wrote what a class act go Megan, get that divorce lawyer

01:12:12.520 and get the money. Okay. So this is all speculation because none of this has been confirmed by the

01:12:18.780 relevant players. But what we do know for sure is that this is the guy that is his head of HR.

01:12:23.920 They were caught in an obvious embrace. And as soon as that cam went on them and they saw their

01:12:29.540 image up in the thing, it was the worst coverup ever. She turned her back to the camera and he

01:12:36.380 just like squat. He looked totally humiliated, embarrassed. It's like, hello, everybody knows

01:12:41.200 to just act like you didn't do anything wrong. You got to keep the, keep holding and then make it into

01:12:46.500 like a dance. That's all it was. It was a dance. It wasn't an embrace. Do something other than

01:12:51.220 turn and cower in humiliation, Camille? He did so many things wrong. I mean,

01:12:56.760 the very first thing is, and look, I've never cheated on my wife. I'm not cheating on my wife.

01:12:59.880 I love you, baby. It's her birthday. I'm great. But if I did it to borrow a phrase from OJ Simpson,

01:13:07.920 I sure as hell, I'm not going to take my side chick to a stadium with 65,000 strangers and just kind

01:13:15.380 of march through the crowd and go up to our box and then be holding her in a warm embrace at a

01:13:21.180 Coldplay concert. I think that the actual star of this story, though, is Chris Martin, who decides,

01:13:27.280 given an opportunity here to let these people off the hook and just let the camera move along

01:13:31.560 to suggest explicitly that these people are either having an affair. I mean, seriously,

01:13:38.120 you just throw the fans under the bus who paid their hard earned money for these tickets,

01:13:42.080 probably for a very expensive box. He's being an accelerationist, Camille. He's just trying to

01:13:47.820 get them faster to where they were maybe going all along. Maybe he didn't believe it. It feels

01:13:53.120 like the only reason he would say that is if he didn't believe it, you know, if he just thought

01:13:56.400 they were camera shy and he's giving them a hard time. But as it turns out, he may have been correct.

01:14:01.800 We don't have confirmation of that. Take it with a grain of salt. There could be some other

01:14:05.420 innocent explanation. As much as we all trust Mrs. SpaceX and her reporting,

01:14:10.080 we really don't have this confirmed, but it's everywhere. It's everywhere. And honestly,

01:14:15.240 it's, it's just, it's alarming because every woman sees that and has like a shutter go down her spine

01:14:22.500 that like your marriage could go up in an instant based on really bad judgment. People do this.

01:14:29.680 They have affairs, you know, marriages fall apart. Normally not in such a public way where you've

01:14:36.820 got Chris Martin involved. Here, we've got the right clip. Now let's watch it.

01:14:42.600 Yeah. Oh, look at these two. All right. Come on. You're okay? Oh, what?

01:14:49.580 Either they're having an affair or they're just very shy.

01:14:52.720 Oh, she's talking to her friend. That's her friend.

01:14:54.440 She whips her back to the camera. Yeah. And he actually, he actually

01:15:01.400 bends down to get squatting to get out of the site. Honestly, they should have listened to me.

01:15:11.420 Look, well, he's really hugging her. It's tight. Yeah. You just lean in. You have to lean in at

01:15:15.360 that point. Right. You really, you got to like kiss her on the top of her head and be like,

01:15:19.040 she's so cute. My head of HR, she's been through a lot. Somebody just died. That's why I'm holding

01:15:23.420 her. Like, I don't know. I'm not sure what you do, but I don't think this is it. It is a pity

01:15:26.900 Moynihan isn't here because he would have great advice. He just would. He wouldn't, he wouldn't be

01:15:32.800 turning and shying away. He has a certain transparency in the way he lives life. Megan, I'm just alarmed a

01:15:40.220 little bit by the level of specificity in your suggestions. You know what? It's because I'm an

01:15:49.320 actress now. I don't know if you caught my premiere in with love, Megan, my, my, my Megan

01:15:54.320 Markle parody, but I'm an actress. I did see. Yeah. And, and let me explain to you how it works in the

01:15:58.820 improv world since you clearly don't know. It's just all, everything's a yes. You don't say no. It's

01:16:04.220 like, yes, I'm on camera. Yes. I'm hugging. Yes. It's no problem. Yes. It's, it's never like, no,

01:16:10.660 no, I wasn't doing it. It's you threw something at me and we're going to go with it. Okay.

01:16:14.560 Try to keep up Welsh. Okay. Yeah. It's great advice. Yeah. Yeah. This is, this is the problem.

01:16:20.240 When you haven't been the way I have to outer space, you don't know things. See, I probably,

01:16:24.480 this guy and I will probably get along. He's an astronomer. I'm an astronaut. We should probably

01:16:28.120 connect. He should give me the exclusive. Are you auditioning for something here?

01:16:34.220 Definitely not. I feel about my spouse the way Camille feels about his. Um, okay. It's not

01:16:41.140 related, but it kind of is forgive me. Cause we're taking a, usually we do harder news and then

01:16:44.640 softer news, but I'm, I'm taking a Dane. Uh, I'm taking a different route. Scotty Schaeffler.

01:16:52.280 You know, me in the sports. Do I have it wrong? The golf chef Schaeffler, the golf champion.

01:16:57.800 I'm not a golf guy. I don't know. Look at this. I got nothing here. I got, I'm talking to two like

01:17:02.160 intellectuals. I, and Moynihan would not help here either. He doesn't, he doesn't know golf

01:17:08.120 either, but basketball, football, I'm your guy. Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, golf is a sport too.

01:17:13.140 And this guy, Scotty Schaeffler is very popular and very successful in his accomplishments. I'm

01:17:21.680 going to tell you all the stuff that he's done in one second. He's number one in the world. Just in

01:17:25.780 case you didn't know that, which I didn't, he's 29, three-time major champion has won the masters twice

01:17:31.600 and the PGA championship this year. He's looking to inch closer to the career grand slam at the

01:17:40.520 open this week at Royal Portrush 16 time PGA tour winner. Uh, and he's been the number one ranked

01:17:48.200 golfer for over 100 weeks. So it's crazy. Like I don't think you can get any more accomplished in

01:17:53.120 the world of golf. And he just gave a press conference. I saw this on X and I, it's rare that

01:18:00.260 I sit and I watched like the whole four minute clip of somebody I don't know at all. I was

01:18:05.500 fascinated by what he said. I'm going to play you part of it and you'll see why I was.

01:18:10.340 It feels like you work your whole life to celebrate winning a tournament for like a few minutes. It

01:18:16.480 only lasts a few minutes. That kind of euphoric feeling like, okay, now, now what are we going

01:18:22.040 to eat for dinner? You know, life goes on. I love the challenge. I love being able to play this game

01:18:26.240 for a living. It's, it's one of the greatest joys of my life, but does it fill the deepest,

01:18:30.840 you know, wants and desires of my heart? Absolutely not. You know, that's why I talk

01:18:34.360 about families being my priority because it really is, you know, I'm blessed to be able to come out

01:18:38.300 here and play golf. But if my golf ever started affecting my home life or it ever affected the

01:18:43.180 relationship I have with my wife, with my son, you know, that's going to be the last day that I play

01:18:46.860 out here for a living. You know, this is not the be all end all. This is not the most important thing

01:18:51.380 in my life. And that's why I wrestle with why is this so important to me? Because, you know,

01:18:55.920 I would much rather be a great father than I would be a great golfer.

01:19:00.820 He went on, right? And he was talking about how, you know, you, you work all day, you're out here on

01:19:06.800 the course all day, the links, whatever. And you're practicing, practicing, practicing. You get up early

01:19:10.840 in the morning. My wife always says, thank you to me when I go. Cause she knows I'm really putting it

01:19:14.140 all out there for the family. And then you win and you're like, yay. He really talked about how

01:19:22.580 winning's great, but it's really not that great. Like you make such sacrifice. You put so much

01:19:30.660 effort into getting the win. When you get it, there is that moment of euphoria, but then it's

01:19:35.360 quickly over. He's like, well, so I won. I can't remember which tournament, but you know,

01:19:38.480 one of them. And he's like, and everyone's like, yeah. And you're hugging. And then that night,

01:19:42.200 you know, we went out, like watched a movie, like we went out to dinner, you know, it's like,

01:19:48.580 and then you're right back at the questions that come your way immediately are, what are you gonna

01:19:52.280 do for the next one? Like, well, what can you do the next one? Like what's going to have the next

01:19:55.340 one? I could totally understand what he's saying. I'm not an athlete, but it reminded me a little bit

01:20:01.260 of back when I practiced law and you would kill yourself getting ready for this big trial. You know,

01:20:07.880 it's like the Superbowl of law and I mean, night and day with no sleep and like years that way.

01:20:15.340 And then you'd try the case and yes, you would win. I lost one, but we got it reversed on appeal

01:20:20.600 any event. So it was all net net. It was all wins. And you'd, you'd be so thrilled at having the W and

01:20:28.200 you would go out and celebrate that night. And then the next day it's just done. It's done. But the pain

01:20:32.100 of losing was so acute and would weigh on you for weeks, you know, like, Oh, it's so far outweighed

01:20:40.800 the joy of winning. And I've never heard a professional athlete just be so honest about it

01:20:46.060 and just get like really real about how that high is a bit of a false God. And what's real

01:20:54.320 is sitting in your living room. Yeah. I mean, and you mentioned his age and I don't remember

01:21:01.540 how old you said he was. It sounds so sub 30. He's fortunate to have figured it out so early.

01:21:06.280 I don't know that most people do. I mean, I think we are, we are people of privilege. We

01:21:10.640 live, you know, pretty, pretty, pretty extraordinary lives in many respects. We get to talk to really

01:21:16.240 prominent people and all kinds of public context, occasionally come in for controversy, but

01:21:19.960 we've been able to do a lot of stuff before I had kids. My wife and I visited every continent,

01:21:24.620 including Antarctica and then all kinds of cool crap. But what I've come to realize,

01:21:28.600 and I think the knowledge I have that other people don't, having already done a lot of

01:21:33.220 the bucket list stuff that I could have imagined before we had kids is the most important thing

01:21:38.100 I do every day is like wake up and try to be a great husband and try to be a great father.

01:21:43.060 And that doesn't mean I don't care about other things, but I've put those things into the right

01:21:47.860 context. I think my daughter and my son really helped crystallize what my priorities are,

01:21:53.620 like my marriage and my own kind of personal happiness and my ability to be present in any

01:21:59.140 given moment. And, um, we used to have one of those posters in the office that said something

01:22:03.760 like, you know, it's not the destination, it's the journey. And I hated it for years. I was like,

01:22:09.000 I want to win. Um, but I have come around to completely understanding it. Like it is,

01:22:14.820 it is those quiet moments. The, the best moments of my life are those quiet moments where,

01:22:20.820 not so quiet moments where everyone is in the bed together for 15 or 20 minutes. And to be able to

01:22:27.040 recognize it in that moment is an extraordinary privilege. And we don't, we don't do it enough.

01:22:32.060 We're consumed with politics. We're consumed with career advancement or the next thing that we want

01:22:36.920 to do. And we forget that the moment you achieve the great thing you'd been thinking about, you're

01:22:41.620 immediately thinking about, okay, what's next? What, what other thing am I striving for? Um, just things,

01:22:47.620 however things are in your life right now, it could be so much worse. And it may be like eventually the

01:22:54.180 void, the void is screaming out for all of us. Um, but we have this moment to be present, to be

01:23:00.160 grateful. Um, and I love that. I mean, it's such a great sentiment. I don't really watch golf, but I'm

01:23:04.380 an instant fan of his. Yeah. Same. Cause you look at those kids. Like I think about my kids when they

01:23:09.840 were babes in their cribs and they smell so good and they're so happy to see you in the morning going to

01:23:14.540 get them. You've already won. This is, this is daily winning the W staring you in the face.

01:23:21.180 It's not to say you shouldn't have any professional ambition. It's just when you have that satisfaction,

01:23:24.900 that true, like true, real love and joy, it's like everything else is kind of gravy. I'm not even sure

01:23:30.480 if you can get the high from winning on the golf course or whatever. Now in my case, in the ratings

01:23:36.400 or whatever God you're chasing, once you know what really matters, right? It's like you,

01:23:41.460 that fulfillment is up here. Maybe you can bump up a degree or two, but I don't know. Even people

01:23:47.340 who don't have kids, Matt, I think can recognize the disappointment of chasing something that's

01:23:52.800 kind of false, whether it's an Oscar in Hollywood or a trophy in sports, you know, not to undermine

01:23:59.600 the whole process and the discipline and, you know, being great at something, but like the win

01:24:04.520 isn't necessarily all it's cracked up to be.

01:24:07.300 The, um, first of all, I need to take credit. I was badgering Camille Foster to have kids for a

01:24:13.000 very long time. I love how kids don't have any idea what you do for a living, not what you do,

01:24:23.020 Megan, in particular, my 17 year old knows exactly what you do. Dad, you weren't making Kelly. I seen

01:24:29.140 TikTok. Uh, so you're like, that's why I put up with this abuse. Uh, basically. But, um, there was

01:24:35.960 an interesting interview that we just had the baseball all-star game, which was really terrific

01:24:39.000 this week in Atlanta, in Atlanta, where it had been banned by idiots a couple of years ago. But,

01:24:43.920 um, there was an interview with Francisco Lindor, the great Mets shortstop. That was kind of similar.

01:24:49.340 Um, uh, uh, reported just like, you know, what is your motivation to go out there every day?

01:24:53.780 Um, just a little 32nd clip. I recommend looking at it. And he's like, kind of gave an Allen Iverson

01:24:58.640 almost, you know, like motivation. Um, but like, no, it's not about motivation. It's about work

01:25:03.240 ethic. Motivation is like, you know, is temporary. It lasts for a while. It's on your shoulder,

01:25:07.740 makes you think to do a thing, but to do the grind every single day to pursue a consistent level of

01:25:14.040 excellence, to be the best at what you do. Um, that takes a lot of discipline. Um, uh, and it takes

01:25:20.980 work ethic and kind of long-term thinking. Um, and that way you're much more at peace actually

01:25:26.380 about whether you win or you lose. Did you put in your best effort? Great. And then if hopefully

01:25:31.320 if you have some kidlets around who don't even know that you play baseball or, or a host of podcast or

01:25:36.420 do whatever, um, it's incredibly rewarding. You feel like you've done your best. And if you're

01:25:40.720 fortunate enough, like all of us are in this conversation, um, to know that that work, that,

01:25:45.740 that attempt to strive for a consistent excellence, um, and the work ethic that goes into it can

01:25:52.500 contribute to you be able to provide some stability and, and, uh, comfort for your kids to pursue the

01:26:00.060 things that they want to do. Um, it is so satisfying. It's as satisfying as like growing a garden and

01:26:05.820 eating your food. Like, Oh man, there's just something elemental about that. And it's not necessarily

01:26:11.460 chasing, uh, immediate spike of highs. It's about a longterm I'm grinding, I'm working and I'm putting

01:26:18.240 in long hours, but I'm doing it for this reason. And, and that reason is the, is the true source of

01:26:24.240 the happiness. Yeah. It's a, it's a good reminder, you know, not to get too drawn into, it could be

01:26:29.940 anything in your life, even for like my work, my, my stay at home moms who watch or listen to the show

01:26:34.960 you're on social media, you make a post, you check it over and over to see how many likes you've gotten

01:26:39.740 the same false God, you know, as like thinking winning the PGA tour is going to be the thing

01:26:46.500 that fulfills you or winning the Oscar, you know, for whatever movie is going to be that it's exactly

01:26:51.540 the same thing. You know, we all get sucked into it and it's a T what a great gift he gave us a

01:26:57.740 great reminder that whether it's this huge goal that everybody in the world, well, most of us have

01:27:04.160 watched and know about, or it's something in your private life that you've prioritized, like getting a

01:27:08.640 raise or getting a new job title or getting a social media like, or whatever, getting the right

01:27:13.880 invitation to the right, you know, cocktail parties. They're all false. They're not going to do the thing

01:27:19.480 for you that you're looking for. It really book inside your living room. That's where the answer

01:27:23.820 is. Uh, guys, stand by more coming up when we come back. Don't go away. Let's be honest. No one has

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01:28:39.800 We just had the one year anniversary, um, one year mark since Butler, Pennsylvania, which was,

01:28:46.760 you know, just a sea change moment in America politics in a way. I mean, Trump was on his way

01:28:51.680 toward winning the election, but that moment and the way he handled it, just galvanized support behind him,

01:28:57.420 even amongst disaffected Republicans who were sort of about him after that moment. Didn't feel that

01:29:03.700 way. Now, if you were a member of the press, um, and a normal person, you could at least begrudgingly

01:29:09.860 say, wow, he really handled that like a, like a champ, you know, gosh, if you were a lunatic member

01:29:15.400 of the press, you speculated on MSNBC about how he faked it, how it was all, the whole thing was fake,

01:29:21.280 totally disrespectful to Corey comparatory and his widow. Um, they've never explained that piece

01:29:28.020 of their bizarre theory, nor apologized to her for saying such a thing. Um, and if you were a member

01:29:33.560 of the press, you might, who is a lunatic have made it all about you, your trauma. And I don't mean

01:29:42.560 that you were almost shot, which is something Selena Zito can say, by the way, thank you,

01:29:47.900 Megan Kelly show viewers, her book debuted at number one on the New York times bestseller list,

01:29:52.580 which I'm sure did not want to put her there. So God bless all of you for buying her book,

01:29:56.220 Butler. She was there with the president on that day. So if you're a real loon,

01:30:01.000 here's where you go with it. This is CBS's Seth McFarlane, who appeared on Chuck Todd's cast.

01:30:09.180 Sorry, sorry, Scott, Scott McFarlane. That's a different, Seth is a different guy.

01:30:12.360 Scott McFarlane, who appeared on the Chuck Todd cast, which has the same number of viewers as

01:30:18.540 people who are in this screen right here. And, um, here's what he said about Butler.

01:30:25.580 For those of us who were there, it wasn't an immediate or even a long-term reflection on secret

01:30:32.000 service. For those of us there, it was such a horror because you saw an emerging American

01:30:40.540 and it wasn't the shooting Chuck. This was, I got diagnosed with PTSD within 48 hours. I got put

01:30:47.540 on trauma leave, not because I think of the shooting, but because you could, you saw it in

01:30:52.400 the eyes, the reaction of the people. They were coming for us. If he didn't jump up with his fist,

01:30:57.520 they were going to come. I know many of us on press row, as we talked about this on our text chains

01:31:02.880 for weeks after we're quite confident we'd be dead. If he didn't get back up, there was a subset,

01:31:08.660 not everybody. There's dozens of people in the crowd who started comforting us saying you did

01:31:13.020 this. This is your fault. You caused this, you killed it. And they're going to beat us with their

01:31:18.580 hands. I mean, they were going to, they were going to kill us. And respectfully, the secret service had

01:31:23.260 bigger issues in protecting us. Um, we, when he jumped up triumphantly, it saved us. Um, but that's

01:31:31.260 the thing I can't eliminate from my mind's eye, the look in their faces. They that's what America

01:31:37.280 is right now. It's not rational. It's an irrational thought to think the media shot somebody from,

01:31:43.500 from a top of building, but the lack of rationality is what connects January 6th to this.

01:31:49.040 Oh my gosh. What? Wow. He's the CBS is J six reporter, by the way. Do you believe that lunacy?

01:31:57.700 I, I can't, I'm just trying to, I'm out here with like, with diagrams against bulletin board,

01:32:05.140 just trying to, Oh, what the, what, what is the theory exactly here? Uh, the, the, the mob was

01:32:13.680 going to kill them. It was going to kill the media, the totally peaceful mob that didn't even stampede

01:32:19.440 out of the joint before Trump jumped up. That was there. You read Selena's book, lovingly,

01:32:26.080 happily celebrating him. And then to their enormous credit, stayed calm even after the bullets were

01:32:33.120 flying. And then yes, when Trump stood up and heroically did that felt inspired, but who was

01:32:38.640 ever talking about the mob turning on the media? This is the first I've heard anything like that.

01:32:43.220 And it's totally inconsistent with the actual tone and tenor of MAGA rallies. That guy, I'm just going

01:32:48.900 to say it is fucking making that up to the same way AOC wants us to believe she was almost raped on

01:32:55.820 J six when she wasn't even there. He's imagining, he's imagining thing, making media, the center of

01:33:02.440 the story and also transposing his personal grief at an electoral outcome, uh, with, uh, with the

01:33:10.380 reality in front of him. I mean, he's mad that people responded. I mean, Trump stood up there.

01:33:15.460 I didn't vote for Trump. As we know, um, he got up blood coming out of his ear and said, fight,

01:33:21.640 fight, fight. You can't. I think it's really, really difficult to look at that and say, wow,

01:33:28.400 um, that that's scary the way he acted there or that response there. No, it was awesome. He got up.

01:33:34.240 The shooting was horrifying. Um, and we could have had the only fair thing to say to Scott McFarland

01:33:39.180 about his, uh, scenario planning here. And it's something that we talk about constantly into the

01:33:43.420 column podcast. America has a problem with political violence. That assassination attempt

01:33:47.120 was very much part of it. Killed a man. Um, and it's terrible. Uh, and we, it's an unresolved

01:33:52.600 problem with political violence on the right and on the left in different ways. And we don't talk

01:33:56.480 about it. Honestly, all that is true. If Trump would have died that day, I shudder to think what

01:34:01.080 would have happened in America. Um, we really, we all dodged a bullet. Corey Kumpitore sadly did not.

01:34:07.140 Um, but the country, uh, dodged a bullet and, but we still have that problem in front of us.

01:34:12.060 So that part of it is true. That's the only part of it that's semi, but it's not what the,

01:34:17.840 what are you doing? That's not the story from that day. Yeah. And he didn't, he didn't even seem to

01:34:23.000 get there. Yeah. He didn't even seem to get there to that conclusion, like the, the react grappling with

01:34:28.040 the reality. And honestly, on the fifth column, there are many things that we talk about regularly.

01:34:32.240 The, the surging, not the surging, but the persistent growing problem of political violence

01:34:38.220 that we've had in this country, which, which became really prominent and undeniable in the

01:34:42.540 summer of 2020, which certainly played a part on January 6th, which has risen up in so many other

01:34:48.680 occasions. And honestly, when president Trump was elected, that, uh, assassination attempt at the,

01:34:53.700 at the baseball field during that congressional baseball game, we've seen so many instances of

01:34:57.440 this. We should be trying to connect it, not in a way that directs blame at either of these

01:35:02.460 political parties, but in a way that acknowledges this is a reality in our politics and we need to

01:35:07.300 do something about it and doing something about it means sober, honest thought, thoughtful engagement

01:35:12.720 with one another, talking honestly about ways that we can kind of ratchet down the temperature

01:35:16.660 of our political exchanges and debates. We don't do that. Honestly, for the most part,

01:35:23.000 we're looking for who to blame in various circumstances as opposed to, and this is

01:35:27.320 interesting because it has a parallel to the very first segment on your show today, Megan,

01:35:31.200 but like the kind of NTSB style investigation of what happened with this particular plane crash,

01:35:37.080 what went wrong, how can we avert it and make certain it doesn't happen again? I'd love to see

01:35:41.160 us have a serious bipartisan investigation and inquiry into what happened during the summer of 2020,

01:35:47.620 into what happened with COVID and why we didn't do a better job with messaging there,

01:35:51.120 into what happened with January 6th. But we won't have a sober, honest, not at all politicized

01:35:57.080 investigation into these things because our politics is utterly broken and our politicians,

01:36:01.760 generally speaking, are not really in the business of actually trying to get to the bottom of things

01:36:07.180 nearly as much as they are assailing their political enemies. And quite frankly, you just saw an example

01:36:11.900 of a journalist who is similarly... Well, that's where I see it. ...about the nature of things.

01:36:15.840 And I think actually journalism... That's where I comment on it. Yeah, I agree. That's a member of the

01:36:19.700 media lifting up the veil. This is what I think of Trump supporters. They're deranged, googly-eyed

01:36:28.360 madmen who want to kill members of the media like me and would in a New York minute. My life was the

01:36:37.600 one you should have been worried about the day of Butler as a member of the media. I was almost killed.

01:36:42.660 I could see it in their eyes. Trust me. Now CBS sends that guy out to go do reporting

01:36:48.600 on January 6th, on, you know, ongoing, on Trump, on anything involving Trump supporters. And they're

01:36:55.440 supposed to watch CBS and watch this guy come on camera and think, I can trust him. He's fair.

01:37:02.520 He gets me. He's made the effort to get my side of the country. Bullshit. That guy should actually

01:37:08.540 be fired. He should be fired. Obviously, he's not well. Yeah. That is not the way... There's a new book

01:37:17.140 out about the COVID disastrous response. And one of the... And the others are not in front of you. It's

01:37:25.100 two Princeton sociologists, actually, who describe themselves as leftist-centered. It's an absolutely

01:37:29.020 harsh indictment on what were supposed to be the truth-seeking institutions in this country,

01:37:36.440 in science, in government, and in the media, and academia. And everyone really, really failed

01:37:44.080 during COVID. And as a result, really helped erode and shred trust and impinge on civil liberties and

01:37:54.080 such like. We see this kind of example here. The journalism industry, as it has been collapsing

01:37:59.000 through things that may or may not be related to this, has been covering itself in this type of kind

01:38:06.080 of openly partisan. And what's the worst thing he said there, besides all the words? It's that me and

01:38:10.660 all the other reporters were text messaging each other with this kind of sentiment. Then you're all

01:38:15.740 crazy. I hope that's not true, honestly. Because that's not... And Chuck Todd, they're like, yes,

01:38:20.580 yes. This is like the main face of NBC's political coverage for many years. Like, yes, right on. Yes.

01:38:26.780 No pause at all. Like, gee, do you think you might want to pause before condemning the entire group

01:38:31.740 that was there that themselves had been traumatized by this? No, not a thought, because he was like,

01:38:36.620 right on. By the way, we don't have time for it. But Francis Collins, he was on a late night on

01:38:42.000 Colbert just last night. Maybe we do have time. Let's play it really quickly. We're going to play it.

01:38:47.060 Stop 35.

01:38:47.740 Steven, we have other deficits that politics aren't going to solve. Maybe they're making

01:38:53.620 it worse. There's a truth deficit. We're in a place now... Yeah, we're... Seems to be no real

01:39:01.340 penalty for saying something that's demonstrably false. It just... No, it's not.

01:39:06.020 Irony.

01:39:06.640 Oh, yeah. We have a trust deficit where because people don't know if they can be sure somebody's

01:39:13.100 telling the truth, why should I trust that person? So we stop trusting each other most of the time,

01:39:17.560 and that's dangerous also for our future.

01:39:20.320 Oh, gee.

01:39:20.720 Wow.

01:39:21.420 No introspection.

01:39:22.500 How did that happen, Francis Collins? You guys, you have to stay for two more minutes,

01:39:25.940 and we just have to talk about that clip.

01:39:27.500 Don't go away.

01:39:28.060 I'm Megan Kelly, host of The Megan Kelly Show on Sirius XM. It's your home for open, honest,

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01:40:31.320 Okay, guys. So Francis Collins, who ran the NIH and the COVID response about Fauci, says we're at a

01:40:38.100 truth deficit. And this is really unfortunate and lamentable. This is the man who decided to try to

01:40:44.860 ruin people like Dr. Jay Bhattacharya, who's now running NIH and in the Francis Collins seat,

01:40:52.140 because he said, maybe we should do focus protection and just focus on the people who

01:40:56.600 are really vulnerable and ask them to, you know, lock down and not the entire society. That might make

01:41:02.420 more sense than having totally fine, perfectly healthy children and young people run around

01:41:07.620 masked or not run around at all or arrest them while surfing or out in a public park, not near

01:41:13.020 anyone. And so he decided he had to be labeled fringe and ruined. This is one of our best scientists in

01:41:20.060 America at Stanford that now that guy wants to turn around. That's the least of his sins, by the way,

01:41:24.740 and lecture us on how it's really sad. We have a truth deficit in this country and something ought to

01:41:30.360 be done about it. Thoughts on that? Let's evaluate the truth-seekingness of the following quote,

01:41:38.000 the science-ness of the following quote. When the Great Barrington Declaration came out

01:41:42.420 in the summer or late or early fall of 2020 that Jay Bhattacharya and others signed, basically saying

01:41:49.340 we want focus protection, his words, Francis Collins' words, we need a quick and devastating

01:41:56.100 take-down of these fringe epidemiologists. Okay? Quick and devastating take-down. That is

01:42:04.420 some clown talk, bro, to paraphrase Bryce Harper. What are you doing? There's no truth. There's no

01:42:10.920 science. That's a political hatchet job. And what effect did it have? Jay Bhattacharya was censured

01:42:15.960 by a hundred faculty members at Stanford, censured. The amount of chilling effect, there's a great piece

01:42:22.960 by John Tierney in the City Journal a couple of years ago, talking about all these different places

01:42:27.460 where peer review was happening in epidemiology sciences related to COVID after this intervention

01:42:33.940 by Francis Collins. It had a huge chilling effect on scientific discourse. And meanwhile, then the

01:42:40.820 Biden administration did all kinds of jawboning against social media companies to have them suppress

01:42:45.060 people, just like go ahead and kick them off your platform of people, not just Joe Rogan from

01:42:50.860 Spotify, was their attempt that they talked about on a daily basis. But people like Rand Paul from

01:42:55.480 YouTube, successful. They kicked him off for a while. Amazing mass kind of censorship jawboning

01:43:01.800 event. He was in the middle of this. I don't want to hear a single damn word coming out of his mouth

01:43:08.160 about truth and freedom and science and anything like that, unless the first one is, I'm sorry,

01:43:15.040 I screwed up. I'm not sorry. He totally screwed up. And Stephen Colbert, who is doing dance routines

01:43:21.600 with giant syringes about the vaccine, is also not the place to have that conversation.

01:43:27.480 No, and lets him totally get away with it, Camille.

01:43:30.460 Yeah, I mean, well, he's not a journalist, so I don't expect him to do much better. And he came

01:43:34.780 there for a PR opportunity, but it would have been much better to have him do a little bit of

01:43:38.520 introspection. During our moment of most profound need, our public health infrastructure completely

01:43:45.220 failed us. Just in terms of messaging and communicating with people in an honest and

01:43:50.220 transparent way, communicating both our certainty and our uncertainty, really profound uncertainty

01:43:55.720 at various moments, that's what they should have been doing. They failed profoundly. We don't even

01:44:01.660 have to get into debates about vaccine efficacy or anything else. I think the quote that Matt just

01:44:05.960 cited in the many, many, many instances of people getting way out over their skis,

01:44:10.780 openly misleading the American public about the use of masks or necessity of masks in certain

01:44:16.160 instances, only to reverse themselves later, all of that has not only had consequence. It didn't

01:44:21.640 only had consequences during the pandemic. It has contributed to this circumstance we find

01:44:25.820 ourselves in where people don't know who to trust. They only trust people who kind of openly agree

01:44:31.100 with them. They're upset with the bureaucracy. They're upset with the institutions broadly.

01:44:35.960 There is an absolute need for us to go back, think carefully about what happened there.

01:44:41.780 And it isn't too late to do it. We can still do it at this point, but it is definitely the case

01:44:46.320 that a lot of these people just need to go. By the way, he didn't get a pardon. They got to be cleared

01:44:48.780 out. He didn't get a pardon. Fauci got a pardon. But he was on all those emails too, when those two

01:44:54.180 decided to stifle any discussion about whether this thing originated in a lab. Remember that explosive

01:45:01.280 story where it was like, I mean, now we all know it definitely started in a lab, but you couldn't

01:45:06.200 talk about it. And those two got those ridiculous epidemiologists together who had all privately,

01:45:12.360 we found out thanks to the house that the Republican led house that investigated it and got the emails

01:45:16.640 privately. They were like, this doesn't look like anything in nature that we've ever seen before.

01:45:22.020 Kind of looks like we grew it in a lab. And then those two went in there and browbeat them.

01:45:28.200 And then within literally like hours, they all did a 180 saying it's natural. It's natural. Came

01:45:34.160 from a pangolin or something like that. Definitely, definitely, definitely not in a lab. And the nerve,

01:45:39.340 so okay, you're going to be a dishonest, disgusting broker on a pandemic that took a lot of lives.

01:45:44.580 That's okay. That's your decision. You'll have to live with that and face up to it when you meet

01:45:48.980 your maker. But then to have the nerve to go on a truth tour, trying to lecture the rest of us,

01:45:57.040 I actually want to hear it one more time. Now having had that discussion, let's play

01:46:00.240 SOT 35 one more time. Stephen, we have other deficits that politics aren't going to solve.

01:46:07.120 Maybe they're making it worse. There's a truth deficit. We're in a place now, yeah,

01:46:12.460 seems to be no real penalty for saying something that's demonstrably false. It just, oh my God.

01:46:19.560 No, it's not. Oh yeah. We have a, we have a trust deficit where because people don't know if they

01:46:25.760 can be sure somebody's telling the truth. Why should I trust that person? So we stopped trusting each

01:46:30.220 other most of the time. And that's dangerous also for our future. It's very meta. You know,

01:46:37.040 like what he's saying applies 100% to him and you're watching it thinking, I agree with every

01:46:42.540 word. It's just, you're the one who created the trust deficit. You're the one who said the untruths

01:46:48.180 that for which there was no accountability. Just as a reminder in those emails, he gave, he give,

01:46:54.340 gives the order in the emails writing that it's important to settle the matter to quote, put down

01:47:00.140 this very destructive conspiracy about COVID starting in a lab, lest the experts do quote,

01:47:06.940 great potential harm to science and international harmony. What? A counter conspiracy. Never been

01:47:15.440 held accountable. A counter conspiracy. I do using the word settle. Yeah. I'm going to pre-settle the

01:47:23.140 science in the name of science. Yeah. Why? Why was it so important to have it settled when you could see

01:47:28.060 the debate was raging within the top experts of the world saying, okay, it could it be natural?

01:47:33.160 Might be, but geez, we don't think so. He wouldn't let it play out. He wanted a conclusion because he

01:47:39.120 knew we funded it. That's the reason he knew that we were funding gain of function research in that

01:47:45.620 COVID lab. He knew that we were paying eco health Alliance to partner with the bat lady to do it.

01:47:50.440 And he didn't want it to come out that he and Anthony Fauci were likely behind the entire pandemic.

01:47:57.460 That's what was going on there. And now he's given red carpet rollout on Stephen Colbert and not asked

01:48:03.240 about any of that shit. It's infuriating. Now, wait, now I've taken, I've abused you. I've kept

01:48:08.860 you seven minutes over. Do you have another few minutes? Cause there is one other thing I wanted

01:48:13.140 to get to. Yeah, we got, we got time for you, Megan. Okay. Okay. God bless you. Cause there's nobody

01:48:17.440 else I'd rather do this with. I've been waiting all week to do this with you guys. Did you catch

01:48:22.380 the piece in the New York times entitled, is it time to stop snubbing your right wing family?

01:48:35.360 It is. It's so good. I can't wait to talk about it. And if you haven't read it, Camille,

01:48:41.060 fear not. I have it here and I'm going to bring you the highlights. Thank you. Now the man's name

01:48:46.260 is David lit L I T T. However, the term does not apply with respect to his piece. As the kids would

01:48:53.640 say, that's slang or cool. Um, okay. I'm just going to give you a little from the top published July

01:48:59.500 13th. Not too long ago, I felt a civic duty to be rude to my wife's younger brother. I met Matt

01:49:07.200 Kapler names him in 2012. And it was immediately clear. We had nothing in common. He lifted weights

01:49:12.220 to death metal. I jogged to Sondheim. I was one of president Barack Obama's who does that. I was one

01:49:19.660 of president Barack Obama's speech writers and had an Ivy league degree. He was a huge Joe Rogan fan

01:49:26.300 and went on to get his electrician's license. Oh, can you imagine? It's basically like what a rube

01:49:32.320 unlike me, my early memories of Matt are hazy. I was mostly trying to impress his parents.

01:49:37.980 Still, we got along chatting amiably on holidays and family events. Then the pandemic hit and our

01:49:44.020 preferences began to feel more like, feel like more than differences in taste. We were on opposite

01:49:49.800 sides of a cultural civil war. The deepest divide was vaccination. I wasn't shocked when Matt didn't

01:49:57.740 get the COVID shot, but I was baffled. Turning down a vaccine during a pandemic seemed like a rejection

01:50:02.440 of science and self-preservation. It felt like he was tearing up. He was tearing up the social

01:50:08.060 contract that until that point I'd imagined we shared had Matt been a friend rather than a family

01:50:13.880 member. I probably would have cut off contact completely as it was on the rare and always

01:50:20.240 outdoor occasions. When we saw each other, I spoke in disapproving snippets that he quotes work's been

01:50:29.500 good. Hmm. I guess that's, that's Matt saying work's been good. And David with the, Hmm, it's my

01:50:38.420 disapproving snippet of you, Matt. My frostiness wasn't personal. It was strategic. Being unfriendly

01:50:46.940 to people who turned down the vaccine felt like the right thing to do. How else could we motivate them

01:50:52.440 to mend their ways? This is not a parody. This is real. He's actually writing this in the first person.

01:50:57.160 I wasn't the only one thinking this, a 2021 essay for USA today declared it's time to start shunning

01:51:02.800 the vaccine hesitant. And LA times piece went further, arguing that to create teachable moments,

01:51:08.780 it may be necessary to mock some anti-vaxxers deaths, which he brings up again here as like,

01:51:16.440 these were my teachers shunning as a form of accountability goes back millenniums. And then he

01:51:22.960 goes back on Hester print and the scarlet letter and what that was meant to do. That was before

01:51:28.800 social media, blah, blah, blah, blah. Um, what people used to do, he says, few people who lost

01:51:34.160 friends over the vaccine changed their minds. They just got new friends. Those exiled from one version

01:51:40.720 of society were quickly welcomed by another, an alternate universe full of grievance peddlers and

01:51:45.580 conspiracy theorists who thrived on stories of victimized conservatives. So he goes on about how

01:51:52.020 he really wrestled with this and he really kind of tried to shun poor Matt, but then they decided to

01:51:59.880 start surfing together. Matt, like a typical right winger, didn't write him off, didn't take it too

01:52:06.940 personally, continued talking to him, was nice to him and actually volunteered to help him learn how to

01:52:14.780 surf. And he says, okay, I wish I could have learned the lesson that ostracism doesn't help,

01:52:21.600 doesn't work. I wish I could have learned this through self-reflection and study. What actually

01:52:26.020 happened is that I started surfing after moving to the Jersey shore. Oh, great. In 2022, I signed up

01:52:31.980 for lessons. Despite my advanced age of 35 and lack of natural talent, I got hooked. Matt was the only

01:52:38.540 other surfer I knew. I put my principled unfriendliness aside. Listen to the guy cloaking

01:52:45.200 himself in glory for being a dick all the way through Matt, not abandoning him and continuing

01:52:51.740 to help him. From the moment we began paddling out together, I could tell my cold shoulder strategy

01:52:59.200 had backfired. I'd spent the peak of the pandemic in a cultural bubble and he had done the same.

01:53:04.720 Driving to a break or changing into our wetsuits, he'd often express opinions about the merits of

01:53:09.820 vigilantism or the health benefits of Mexican stem cell injections that I found slightly unhinged.

01:53:16.140 Where is this coming from? I wondered. The answer was nearly always Joe Rogan. I assumed our surf

01:53:23.100 buddy experiment would either fall, fail spectacularly, or would bring Matt over to my side. Neither of those

01:53:30.080 things occurred, however. Instead, the connections we found were tiny and unrelated to politics.

01:53:33.860 And then he goes on to talk about common ground they found on non-political matters. And he forgave Matt

01:53:42.000 for being a crazy Joe Rogan fan and started to rethink his decision to completely ostracize Matt

01:53:49.680 from his life. And he decided that this was a better path. That shunning, he writes, plays into the hands

01:53:58.840 of demagogues, making it easier for them to divide us. And even in some cases to incite violence.

01:54:06.520 So he hasn't learned anything about his worldviews other than when you have the hateful, awful people

01:54:13.100 on the other side, the shunning isn't the most effective way of getting them to change their

01:54:18.880 worldview because they, you drive them into the arms of the true lunatics. That's what he learned

01:54:24.600 on the surfboard with Matt. There's so much in here. I'll start with you, Matt Welsh. Since you're a

01:54:32.360 Matt and you read the piece, your thoughts on it? There are so many aspects of that that make me want

01:54:39.920 to both punch the window that I'm looking through right now and also just laugh myself to death because

01:54:46.280 the lack of self-awareness is so fantastic. But there are public policy aspects of this that

01:54:51.580 we're thinking about. End of 2021, we were just talking about when Francis Collins was in

01:54:55.220 office. The president of the United States was calling this the pandemic of the unvaccinated.

01:55:02.340 That sense of absolutely divisive and accusatory, you don't like, you're not doing what we want you

01:55:10.360 to do. And so therefore your death is your fault. That was widespread in mainstream media,

01:55:16.000 mainstream democratic discourse, and in democratic governance during the Biden administration.

01:55:21.080 And it is, and it was sick. Joe Biden accused Ron DeSantis and all these governors who were not

01:55:29.680 doing exactly what he wanted to do in terms of like schools and other aspects. He was accusing them

01:55:35.280 of playing with kids' lives. Remember, I wrote about all this stuff in real time. Like you're accusing

01:55:40.220 a governor of a state during a pandemic of being more interested in politics than his own children in

01:55:47.480 his family. Because DeSantis has a bunch of kids and children in the state living or dying. That is so

01:55:53.620 warped. I mean, it's a terrible thing to, a terrible place to be as a human being. Like, maybe I shouldn't

01:55:59.680 ostracize people. Like my principled unfriendliness. Like, dude, you've got, you, you need to touch a lot

01:56:05.480 of grass. Yeah. And maybe even some weed while you're touching grass too. It's like, go somewhere,

01:56:10.460 smoke out a lot. Touch it and smoke it. And figure out why you've become a monster. Because you kind

01:56:16.240 of have, just as an interpersonal way of going through things. But also, these theater kids held

01:56:21.080 power. He still has the power to get. Matt isn't out there writing in the New York Times op-ed page

01:56:25.540 thinking about reconsidering. And let's be honest, this wouldn't have been published if Kamala Harris

01:56:31.000 would have won. Because he wouldn't be going through the same levels of introspection. Same reason

01:56:35.600 Gavin Newsom wouldn't be going on bro podcasts now. Yep. If Kamala Harris would have won. Now,

01:56:40.960 suddenly, the New York Times is like, oh, maybe we should, I don't know, profile Andrew Schultz or

01:56:46.660 something. Like, there's a palpable difference. Like, maybe we can't just pretend like half of the

01:56:53.020 country is irredeemable bigots that we should just sort of shun their way into modifying their

01:56:59.520 behavior. It's a whole- I guess CBS's McFarlane didn't get the memo. No, it didn't. I mean,

01:57:06.480 the Times was still going after Schultz in that piece as well, where they were profiling him.

01:57:10.760 Look, I wholeheartedly agree with everything that you all have said about this situation. I mean,

01:57:16.160 especially like the notion of casting you just deliberately being an asshole to everyone

01:57:22.000 in this self-serving way is just so obnoxious. It's nearly beyond belief, except we've all lived

01:57:30.140 this. We've watched this happen. We know people who have done this themselves. And I will say,

01:57:35.220 you know, for my part, I've had weird politics. It is always the case long before COVID that we

01:57:41.380 would be in circumstances where people would meet me, discover something that I think, like, I don't

01:57:45.200 know, the Department of Education should be completely shuttered and think, what a monster you are.

01:57:49.740 I can't even talk to you. And I think for people like us, we've long had this, given that experience,

01:57:56.240 you have to be pretty generous to people, even when you have a severe disagreement. And looking

01:58:01.120 for those areas of common ground and trying to persuade people on the basis of the things that

01:58:06.260 we have in common, as opposed to trying to castigate everyone who is imagined to be somewhat different

01:58:12.260 from you or diverges from accepted opinion on something and attributing the worst possible motives to

01:58:18.140 them. Like, that is just a monstrous way to live. I do have real concerns, though, that this has been

01:58:24.520 a hallmark of the left, that they've been uniquely censorious in many instances, that they've been,

01:58:30.060 interestingly, because many of them aren't believers, they've been weirdly puritanical and

01:58:35.420 kind of prone to condemnations. But some people on the right have adopted some of these same

01:58:43.340 approaches to politics and to kind of social interactions in victory. And I'm someone who,

01:58:49.660 in that summer of 2021, I remember, and we were talking around that time, Megan, and some periods

01:58:53.680 after as well, I got published two pieces within the space of a couple of months and found myself

01:58:59.120 at the center of like a hate storm. Like the first was in June, where I was skeptical of the critical

01:59:05.500 race theory bans, not critical race theory itself. I have nothing but contempt for those ideas.

01:59:11.860 But I didn't think the bans were a good idea. And I said so in a public place. And a lot of

01:59:15.840 conservatives got openly and secretly angry with me. And a couple of weeks later, I remember that

01:59:20.680 debate. I was down here at the shore. Yeah, we had it. Yeah. Yeah. And a couple of weeks later,

01:59:24.860 I published this story about Amy Cooper, the Central Park Karen, quote, unquote, and people on the left

01:59:30.580 were not impressed with it. And it was the same exact thing in the other direction. And there was never

01:59:36.080 really an interest in maybe we should have a conversation. Perhaps Camille is an honest broker.

01:59:41.100 And the fact that he manages to piss off people on both sides has something to do with the fact

01:59:46.000 that he's just trying to get at the truth. We don't seem to have an appetite for that. And my

01:59:50.260 Joe Rogan bro who surfs, who's still cool enough with you to take to invite you out to surf, despite

01:59:55.480 the fact that you've been strategically and deliberately an asshole to him systematically for

02:00:01.060 years. He deserves a medal. And you desperately, desperately, desperately need to touch grass,

02:00:07.340 as has already been said, and think carefully about the kind of person you want to be. Just

02:00:11.620 be better, motherfucker. Come on. Because you know, yeah, be better, motherfucker. You know,

02:00:16.100 like he's putting all those things in there to win him plaudits from the left wingers, he assumes

02:00:22.340 correctly, are reading the Times, right? Like, I was a complete douche to him. Let me reassure you.

02:00:27.680 At every turn, I treated him like absolute shit. Let me reenact the dialogue. How's, is work going

02:00:34.460 okay? Hmm. Hmm. Oh my, I mean, I think we've also determined that David is a gay man. Um,

02:00:42.280 it's like, no, he's not. Cause he's, I think it's his sister-in-law, but he's certainly acting

02:00:46.960 a little on the edge. Um, anyway, he's doing it because he wants snaps, right? He wants snaps from

02:00:55.140 the Times readers. That's why he's, and what does he think is going to get him snaps being a complete

02:01:01.860 asshole to someone that he loves someone who's in his family, someone who's been nothing but nice to

02:01:05.880 him. And none of that matters. All that matters is he didn't get the COVID jab people. He watches

02:01:11.480 Joe Rogan. So we have to hate him. I mean, truly even his on paper indictment of the guy doesn't go

02:01:17.400 beyond that. Like what, where is, where is Matt's terrible sin? You didn't even say that like he

02:01:23.760 listens to Tucker Carlson. Like I, Joe Rogan, he's kind of middle of the road. Like, what do you

02:01:29.060 mean? Anyway, I just think it's such an amazing window right into how the left is. And, and is

02:01:34.360 anybody surprised that this was a speechwriter for Obama? God does zero. Um, I would just add

02:01:40.700 this a cautionary tale for everybody. And, you know, we're talking on a podcast that talks about

02:01:45.780 politics, the people who are going to be higher than normal, um, uh, sense of involvement or

02:01:51.980 consumer interest in politics. You don't have to bring your politics into everything. You don't

02:01:57.260 have to bring it into your baseball or your golf. You certainly don't have to bring it to your family,

02:02:02.300 especially in ways where you're naming them out loud. Um, you don't have to like the world is a

02:02:10.080 big and beautiful place. Anytime I go anywhere in America, which I do as often as possible because

02:02:14.300 America is awesome. Um, you know, the first conversations that you have with people aren't

02:02:18.880 about politics. You know, I spent 4th of July on the 13th deck of a cruise ship in Boston

02:02:25.060 moored with a bunch of senior retirees standing up and putting their hand over their heart as the

02:02:30.280 military anthems of each branch of the military were played as we're watching it on a big screen.

02:02:34.820 What, what's wrong with you? Am I going to turn to the lady next to me and say, I don't know,

02:02:39.500 man, did you vote for someone I didn't like? That's right.

02:02:43.000 You look like a Trumper. That's actually not how normal humans live. You can go in any direction

02:02:49.780 in America and no one really is having those conversations except when you're over politicized

02:02:55.080 everything and too much of your brain space on a daily basis is taken up by politics. Don't do it.

02:03:00.940 You don't have to, um, don't judge people that way. Uh, we're all awesome, uh, in our way. Even our

02:03:05.940 theater kids are awesome. They just need to maybe have a little bit less power.

02:03:10.060 I have like dear friends, like truly very, very close friends who are diehard liberals and also

02:03:18.860 woke, not just liberals. I mean, I don't have a lot of friends who are woke, but I have a couple

02:03:23.640 of girlfriends who are woke and people ask me like, how have you maintained those friendships

02:03:28.160 through like the last five years in particular? And we, not, not all of them has survived. I told

02:03:33.220 the audience months ago that a friend did break up with me not too long ago over politics, but for the

02:03:39.940 most part, my dearest friends are still intact. And the reason is with some, we sometimes discuss

02:03:45.240 politics, but we do it totally respectfully. I am completely open to their worldview. And there's

02:03:49.760 so many things on the Republican side that you can criticize. I'm happy to give them all their main

02:03:54.460 points, which are never unreasonable. You know, they're not like nutcases and they give me mine

02:03:58.840 too about the Democrats. And so if we go there, we go, go only 10% into the politics. And usually

02:04:03.960 there's plenty to criticize on both sides. And I'm delighted to give it up about the right. And

02:04:07.860 they're usually fine giving it up about the left, but the vast majority of our time together,

02:04:11.880 we talk about our lives, you know, like who's running around all day thinking about Trump

02:04:17.960 or politics. Like we do it for our jobs. Sure. And that's fun. Like when I'm with my friends,

02:04:23.020 we talk about our lives. We talk about our kids. We talk about something funny that happened with

02:04:27.060 other friends or a dinner we went to or a party we went to or what's going on with your mom. How's

02:04:30.580 your mom doing? Where did you guys vacation? What was it like? There's so much you can discuss

02:04:35.600 that doesn't come anywhere near the political sphere. And there's so much within politics that

02:04:40.840 you can discuss. That's like fair game and isn't going to upset anybody. It's just these people who

02:04:46.400 are so hard partisan, like you, David lit are the ones who ruin it for everyone, for families and

02:04:53.560 friend groups. He's the one who should be kicked out. He's the Hester of the group. Hester Prynne,

02:05:00.260 right? Was that her last name? Yeah. Prynne from the Scarlet Letter. You're, you're,

02:05:03.540 you're Hester. You get the Scarlet Letter, not sweet Matt. Matt, I hope I see you here on the

02:05:08.600 Jersey shore. And I hope you come up to me and you tell me it's me, Matt. And I will give you a hug

02:05:13.880 and we can talk about your jerk relative. Guys, thanks for doing overtime. It's always a pleasure

02:05:19.800 and all the best to Moynihan. Hope, hope whatever he's going through resolves quickly. Yeah. Amen.

02:05:24.640 All right. Awesome. What another great show. I love those guys. What a, what a day. Um,

02:05:36.560 thank you all for tuning in. Please tune in tomorrow too. We're going to have Maureen

02:05:40.140 Callahan, the one and only she and I have a lot to go through, including the sit down

02:05:45.180 on Michelle Obama's member Megan. Oh, Michelle. Oh, as an update to her podcast that stars Barack. Oh,

02:05:52.740 and we both have a lot of thoughts. Tune in then.

02:05:58.520 Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - July 17, 2025

Was Air India Crash Deliberate, and Previewing Next Epstein Shoe to Drop, with Fifth Column and Aviation Experts ｜ Ep. 1110

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