The Megyn Kelly Show - What Happened to Missing Plane MH370： A Megyn Kelly Show True Crime Special

00:00:00.480 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:12.140 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show and the final day of our hot

00:00:16.760 crime summer week. Today we investigate the mystery of MH370, a missing plane. You may

00:00:23.820 think you know this story, but you do not know it like this. Oh my gosh. We're going

00:00:30.420 to take you from takeoff to the controversial search and investigation with famed writer,

00:00:36.420 author, and journalist, William Longavisha. In addition to his journalism, he's also an

00:00:42.040 aviation expert. He was a professional pilot for many years before turning to journalism,

00:00:46.900 and he has researched and investigated the MH370 findings more than pretty much any other

00:00:52.800 journalist, including those involved with that recent Netflix special, and we're going to get

00:00:58.480 to that too. We will try to get to the bottom once and for all about what happened, where that plane

00:01:04.260 is, and we will get into the head of that pilot. Set the stage, because I watched this whole special

00:01:12.040 on Netflix about what happened to the plane. I was excited. I was like, okay, I want my answers.

00:01:17.400 I walked away frustrated and kind of angry that I had been led down a bunch of

00:01:22.640 paths that seemed equally unreasonable and led to trust people who turned out to be, to me,

00:01:29.740 kind of quacky and didn't get any answers. There wasn't an answer. So is there an answer? I mean,

00:01:37.660 is there a better place to go for what not definitively, but most likely happened to MH370?

00:01:45.320 Yes, there is completely an answer. It's indisputable. In fact, the answer is indisputable.

00:01:50.760 The motive is a different question. The why is the question. The what is indisputable.

00:02:00.600 So let's start there. What happened to MH370?

00:02:05.180 Well, this airplane took off. It was in 2014, March, at night, just after midnight,

00:02:13.360 out of Kuala Lumpur in Malaysia, so Air Malaysia. They were going to Beijing, about a six-hour flight,

00:02:18.860 straight on up the coast of Asia, basically, to Beijing. And after leveling off, a few minutes

00:02:27.660 after leveling off, it got over the South China Sea, disappeared from radar. This does occasionally

00:02:34.340 happen. It usually means that there's a crash, which happens immediately. In this case, there was no crash.

00:02:40.300 It disappeared from radar. And for reasons we can discuss, we know that it kept flying not toward

00:02:48.700 Beijing, but essentially 90 degrees to that path, and then in the roughly opposite direction toward

00:02:56.540 the South Pole out over the Indian Ocean for about seven hours. And that doesn't fit any profile that

00:03:04.720 any of us have ever seen before with an airplane accident, whether it's a terrorist act or explosion

00:03:11.280 or a system failure. It just disappeared after a very, very strange flight, an enigmatic flight

00:03:20.160 that we were able to piece together, however, conclusively. And at the end of that flight,

00:03:27.920 it ran out of gas and went into the deep ocean in a remote part of the Indian Ocean and has not yet

00:03:34.160 been found, period. It basically was on its way northeast toward Beijing. It turned around,

00:03:42.080 it crossed back over, and then it went south over the Indian Ocean. This is what you say happened.

00:03:48.240 And there are data points that support that theory. The most important being the

00:03:53.440 MRSAT data, right? Can you explain what that is?

00:03:57.840 Yes, I would say that the most important initial data points is primary radar, right? So that

00:04:04.000 either military radar or just raw radar. And that showed, within a few days, it clearly showed that

00:04:11.920 the airplane turned west across the Malay Peninsula and then went northwest up the Straits of Malacca,

00:04:20.480 around the top of Indonesia, and then south from there into the depths of the Indian Ocean.

00:04:27.840 It was on radar for a long time after making the first turn. So that's the first thing.

00:04:33.440 It was or was not? Say again.

00:04:35.920 It was or it was not? It was, okay.

00:04:39.760 It was on primary radar. It was not on normal air traffic control, computer-enhanced,

00:04:48.720 transponder-based secondary radar, which is the normal air traffic control radar. It carries a lot

00:04:54.480 of data with it. It was on the kind of radar that the military uses for air defense reasons,

00:04:59.440 and also that it lies underneath normal air traffic control radar. So it was an unenhanced,

00:05:07.520 raw target. And that was the first thing. No matter what, it stayed, I think I'm going to say it was in

00:05:15.920 the air, being seen by some form of radar for about an hour after making the first crazy,

00:05:25.920 silent turn off course from Beijing. As it proceeded then around the top of Indonesia,

00:05:34.880 it then disappeared from radar range, normal radar range, both Thai and Indonesian, let alone Malaysian

00:05:42.320 military. And then the, but at about the same time that that occurred, that it was being lost from

00:05:49.280 normal radar. It, it's complicated to explain this, but a series of electronic handshakes

00:06:00.400 began. And these handshakes are related to an obscure communication device in the ceiling of the

00:06:08.160 cabin of the 777. This was a 777 Boeing that is responsible for some forms of communication, largely

00:06:16.240 entertainment stuff. And other things reports to maintenance. Um, so satellite based and those

00:06:22.960 handshakes where either the airplane or the ground-based satellite, the ground base of the satellite

00:06:30.160 system was, was trying to establish communications always unsuccessfully, but the attempt to establish

00:06:37.760 communications carried with it whispers of content with hints of location and of direction. And in the end of

00:06:50.720 a final violent dive, um, that the use of that information, which was basically interpreted in London,

00:07:01.040 in Marsat as the company, um, was, was revolutionary. That information never been used before. There were

00:07:09.920 two forms of it, these handshakes, and they were able to, in Marsat in London, they specifically were

00:07:16.080 able to derive distance from the satellite. And there were, I think, seven handshakes, uh, and me being a

00:07:23.360 little wrong on that, but roughly seven handshakes, each of which gave it, gave a distance from the

00:07:28.000 satellite and an arc. And then also, uh, a, through a Doppler effect, if you know what I mean, distortion

00:07:35.520 of frequencies. Um, and I'm simplifying it a little bit related to the speed of the airplane and problems

00:07:41.920 with the wobbling satellite. They were able to, in Marsat was able in London to derive a directional

00:07:49.360 information or at least turn information. So the turns were seen because it, it warped sort of like a

00:07:57.840 train going by, you know, a Doppler effect. Um, it warped the signals and, um, uh, a train going by,

00:08:05.280 I'm talking audio, uh, a train whistle, anything like that. That's of course the famous Doppler

00:08:10.720 effect. We all learned about it in high school. Um, but it was happening electronically out over the

00:08:15.760 Indian ocean. This was never, this is revolutionary stuff. And it was, it was, um, out of desperation

00:08:23.280 that these brilliant people in London realized they had real information. They could go back into the

00:08:30.080 records during those hours and derive from that satellite, uh, a lot of information of where the

00:08:36.360 airplane was at any given time or at each given handshake and where it was turning. So that's what

00:08:42.880 I'm talking about. Hmm. That's fascinating. So let's start back at the first kind of radar that you said

00:08:49.740 picked up the plane. You said it wasn't the normal air traffic control radar. Now, why do we know why

00:08:56.660 that was that? It wasn't being picked up on the normal air traffic control radar?

00:09:03.780 Well, because the airplane's transponder was turned off, uh, whether if, if, if we're talking about a

00:09:10.440 simple, simple, uh, single failure, this is not uncommon. It's why airplanes typically have two

00:09:17.560 transponders. I mean, transponder failures are not uncommon. Uh, and you know, it's not very exotic

00:09:23.980 technology, that kind of transponder. It's similar, similar to the traffic, uh, the total transponders

00:09:30.380 you have in your car, easy pass or something like that. So, um, the, the transponder transmits all kinds

00:09:36.560 of information, uh, about the airplane, uh, the flight number, uh, where it's going, et cetera, et cetera,

00:09:42.520 uh, altitude, um, it piggybacks on the, um, the data coming in with, with raw primary radar. Um, so

00:09:53.500 we know that the transponder turned off. Did it turn itself off or did someone turn it off? Well,

00:10:03.440 given that it's totally unrelated to communications, it happened at seconds after communications stopped

00:10:09.380 and given that it is totally unrelated to which way the airplane's flying, it happened at the same

00:10:15.680 time that the airplane made its first radical, crazy turn. We know it was turned off. It didn't

00:10:21.400 turn itself off. These are independent. These would be independent issues. So yeah, that's what happens.

00:10:28.460 It's a logical deduction. What about the second transponder? I mean, were they, were they both,

00:10:32.520 were they both turned off? Cause you say there's a backup. They both would have been turned off.

00:10:36.680 Yeah. Well, no, they weren't. You can't turn off the primary. I mean, the, the primary is what the

00:10:41.860 military uses to see pieces of metal in the sky, right? They don't rely on transponders to say when

00:10:48.160 the enemy is invading their airspace. So primary transponder, you can't turn it off. It's just going

00:10:53.560 to pick you up. And in fact, the Malaysian air traffic control has a baseline, a primary radar,

00:11:02.260 but they didn't look at it. I mean, we're talking levels of incompetence here, right? Which is part

00:11:07.320 of the story of what, what happened here in terms of the disappearance, the military very quickly said,

00:11:14.900 admitted basically out of Penang on the peninsula there where they have a F, a fighter base

00:11:22.400 that they, they were watching it that, or at least they said they were watching it. They should have

00:11:28.220 been watching it. Uh, and they said, well, we knew it was, uh, uh, we knew what the airplane was. Uh,

00:11:35.860 so we didn't bother to, to make anything out of it. We didn't send any, um, interceptors up to find

00:11:44.060 out what's going on because we knew it was MH370. So who cares? Well, that, that falls apart in a hurry

00:11:49.560 because the search, the initial search took place in the South China Sea, totally the wrong place,

00:11:56.700 as if the airplane had gone down on course for Beijing and the military. So that is just

00:12:03.300 completely not believable. It very quickly was obviously a coverup, which is completely believable

00:12:10.900 in Malaysia, uh, political embarrassment, corruption, brutality, whatever, dysfunctional government,

00:12:17.220 um, dysfunctional military. They were either asleep and there's some indication they may actually

00:12:23.200 have been asleep, uh, or they were just incompetent. The military was in one way or another was tracking

00:12:31.420 this thing right along and didn't do anything about it. Why ask them? I've tried. You don't get very far

00:12:40.460 with that kind of question in Malaysia. So the primary radar was showing it. And, and it was,

00:12:49.580 let's say it was both the military radar and the civilian primary radar. The military fessed up a lot

00:12:56.420 sooner than the civilian did to having had primary radar on this machine, on this airplane, but, um,

00:13:04.600 they came up with all kinds of crazy excuses why they didn't do anything about it. So it,

00:13:10.460 we don't know, I mean, truly they could have been asleep. Is there a record of it? So we know it

00:13:18.300 did in fact appear on the radar. And the real question is just, why didn't they do anything

00:13:22.300 about it? They were asleep. They didn't care. They were incompetent, but do we know it did in fact

00:13:26.640 appear on their radar? Yeah, we do. I mean, the images exist and, uh, not the full radar record,

00:13:33.840 but they, they, they certainly exist. Uh, and they, they were pretty widely disseminated. Um,

00:13:39.740 yes, we do. There it is. They, they, they provided images that showed it, but then provided

00:13:45.120 false explanations for their inaction. Hmm. Got it. And this is all relevant to what I think is your

00:13:53.900 belief as to why this plane did what it did. And that relates to the pilot. And that explains,

00:14:00.560 if it relates to an intentional decision by the pilot, why there might've been a coverup,

00:14:05.480 why the Malaysian government might've misled us. I mean, it really does explain a lot

00:14:10.180 if this was an intentional downing of an aircraft by the pilot. But to this day,

00:14:15.920 the Malaysians are saying, that's not what this was. That's that wasn't it. So let's talk about,

00:14:22.040 before we get into the pilot, let's just talk about the end of the flight. So we can,

00:14:25.460 you know, take the viewers and the listeners there. Then it turns South over the Indian ocean,

00:14:31.960 which is a bear of an ocean. My God, the, the videotapes I've seen of the retrieval efforts,

00:14:39.740 they did make the Australians did the Chinese did. There was, there were a few efforts to actually

00:14:45.840 see if they could find debris someplace in the ocean. And three, three, three, more than three years

00:14:51.660 of efforts by the, primarily by the Australians. Yeah. And the $120 million on that.

00:14:58.100 And we've got some videotape of those boats out there trying to do it. And it was just,

00:15:02.480 it was chilling to me because the waves they dealt with, like that is a scary ocean and they were on

00:15:10.000 it for a long time. And that's where we believe this aircraft wound up. But one of the mysteries is

00:15:16.400 in this post nine 11 world in which this plane may have been taken down, why wouldn't the passengers

00:15:22.840 have fought? Why, why would they have allowed, somebody might've realized at some point it was

00:15:28.000 making weird turns. They were well past the number of hours that would have taken them to get to Beijing

00:15:33.120 by the time we believe the plane went down. So what, what happened to the passengers? What do you

00:15:39.040 think? It's no one really knows, but it's because of the amount of time that transpired. It's likely

00:15:47.700 that they were incapacitated in one way or another, very early in the events, right? So after, right

00:15:54.040 after the first left turn, the turning away from Beijing, we know the airplane climbed to 40,000 feet,

00:16:02.520 had been at 35,000 feet, 40,000 feet was the, pretty much the ceiling of the airplane performance

00:16:08.700 ceiling at that time, that weight that night. So they climbed as high as they could go. And it's,

00:16:15.920 I think there would be general agreement. Well, there's a lot of disagreement here because people

00:16:21.740 have all kinds of crazy theories, but reasonable people think that the, the passengers were incapacitated

00:16:28.160 and actually probably killed by depressurizing the airplane. Very easy to do. You depress,

00:16:36.140 you throw a switch, you depressurize the cabin. The people basically go to sleep and you, you know,

00:16:44.500 masks fall, but they put them on, but they're no good at that altitude. I mean, those are masks are good

00:16:51.000 only for riding a short descent down to higher pressures in the lower altitudes. At 40,000 feet,

00:16:57.720 the mask is really not going to do you a normal mask, but in the cockpit, there are four pressure

00:17:04.800 masks, which are different, right? They pressurize the oxygen flow to the lungs. So you have a sort

00:17:10.140 of a mini pressurized airplane. If you can put that mask on, they're quick donning masks. So slap those

00:17:16.120 on, depressurize the airplane. Everybody in the back dies within minutes at peaceful death,

00:17:23.740 not screaming. How, how would it be a peaceful death?

00:17:27.720 Well, because the people go to extreme hypoxia. People go to sleep. They don't, they don't,

00:17:34.220 they're not gasping for breath. They don't feel that they're suffocating. Yeah. Hypoxia. So it seems,

00:17:43.740 I think many people would agree that the airplane was depressurized at roughly the same time that

00:17:51.400 the entire electrical system was shut down, which is another matter that, um, and this is all very

00:17:58.980 closely associated with the first left to turn away from Beijing and a short, a tight turn,

00:18:05.120 high G load turn and a climb to 40,000 feet. So if you were going to depressurize the aircraft with a

00:18:11.200 switch, why would you need to go up to 40,000 feet? You don't. So, you know, that's like overkill,

00:18:17.520 but it makes it happen faster. So yeah. And you'd also don't need to make a tight turn. We know that

00:18:24.460 that, that initial turn away from Beijing was not flown on autopilot. It was too tight for an autopilot.

00:18:30.880 It was flown by hand and it was, somebody was flying that airplane that made that turn.

00:18:36.040 It was a tight turn, steep, steep bank angle, high bank angle, high G load.

00:18:42.200 Why would that be the choice?

00:18:44.940 I don't know. I don't know. I mean, whoever was doing it, not entirely rational, obviously.

00:18:53.300 So then we go out over the Indian ocean and we go South for how many hours was it over the Indian

00:18:58.220 ocean? Well, the whole flight lasted what, seven hours, six hours, I think probably five hours over

00:19:07.320 the Indian ocean, something like that. Yeah. I'm going to guess about, I'd have to go back and look

00:19:13.380 at my notes and all that. That's been a long time for me, but I'd say five hours actually over the

00:19:18.220 Indian ocean. That's a long time by the way. Right. So is there anything to be gleaned from that?

00:19:25.700 No. I mean, why would, if, if a guy is suicidal and intent on killing himself and all his passengers,

00:19:38.100 why would he wait so long to do it? That's totally unknown. I have a theory, which is nothing,

00:19:47.220 nothing at all solid is, is, is that the, if indeed the captain did this, and I think he did. Okay.

00:19:54.540 Why waltz around this, his name is Zahari. He may have, having committed to this flight path that he

00:20:05.700 presumably actually had thought through in advance and practice on a flight simulator, that he,

00:20:12.100 that he found himself in a quandary, that he actually knew he couldn't turn back. For one thing,

00:20:21.360 he probably killed the entire plane load of passengers. And also he had just deviated,

00:20:25.960 you know, from the course to Beijing, that he couldn't go back home ever again, that he knew

00:20:32.020 that he had to die that, but, but, um, he didn't want to die maybe, or he was savoring the last moments

00:20:42.080 of his life. I don't know. It's, it's, it's always struck me is that that long flight, the length of

00:20:49.260 that flight, after he made that last turn out over the Indian ocean and then flew pretty much straight

00:20:54.620 for five hours, let's say, um, that he was in a, some kind of a, an emotional or philosophical,

00:21:02.020 um, quandary. I, I want to, I don't want to, I want to, I don't want to. And it just went on until

00:21:07.760 they ran out of gas. He couldn't quite bring himself to do it. And finally he let it do it to

00:21:13.600 him. But I, I don't know that. And I think, I know that nobody knows that, that that's why would

00:21:20.740 he take five hours when I just do what every other suicidal pilot does. And there are quite a few have

00:21:25.580 been around, you know, this is a fairly stand, not standard, but an occasional occurrence. Um,

00:21:31.020 you push the airplane into the ground right away within minutes, you don't wait around.

00:21:35.960 So he waited around for five hours. So I cannot explain that.

00:21:40.640 It's incredibly eerie to think about that man up there, potentially flying that aircraft

00:21:45.600 with dead bodies, filling up the cabin, dead at his hand.

00:21:50.120 Just shut the door. He said the door shut. He doesn't need to worry about that.

00:21:54.180 But he knew is my point. He knew it was on his soul. It was on his moral conscience.

00:22:00.040 And what about the co-pilot under this theory?

00:22:02.580 Well, now you're bringing that up. So yes, it's inconceivable that the co-pilot was involved

00:22:10.400 in this. He was a young man and he was getting married. He, he was 24 years old, uh, 27 years

00:22:19.040 old, Farik Hamid. Uh, he, he, he was riding high because to be a co-pilot, a first officer

00:22:26.900 on a Boeing triple seven in Malaysia, in Malaysia is a really big deal in society. So he was just

00:22:34.740 riding as high as you can ride almost in Malaysia. And he was about to get married and all this.

00:22:42.440 He was not political. He was not religious. He, there was no motive conceivable for this guy.

00:22:50.720 We know he was not involved in this. So we know that, that he had to be eliminated, um,

00:22:57.920 one way or another. Now the obvious one is to lock, that the captain locked him out.

00:23:03.080 We've seen this before in the, uh, German wings accident in, uh, in Europe. Um, the co-pilot

00:23:10.120 locked the captain out when he went to the toilet. Uh, when we've seen variations of the lockout

00:23:17.240 theme, where you get yourself alone in the cabin and then you crash the airplane. Uh, if that's your,

00:23:24.960 your, you know, desire, I, I don't know how long we can go on this, but after I wrote this piece,

00:23:34.580 a man approached me, a man I've known for a long time, I guess I should not name him,

00:23:38.560 but he's one of the preeminent human factors, accident investigators in the world. Uh, and

00:23:46.740 very well known and very respected and had a private conversation with me. And he said that he

00:23:57.440 was doing studies on, um, he was doing studies on voice analysis of the radio transmissions. Now

00:24:07.120 remember the cockpit voice recorder was never found. So all they had to go on for human factors with voice

00:24:15.220 were the radio transmissions. I had noticed, and I wrote about the fact that the captain,

00:24:21.640 he was handling the radios and the co-pilot was handling the flying of the airplane or managing

00:24:26.880 the co-pilot, the, uh, the autopilot, um, and totally normal on departure from Kuala Lumpur that the

00:24:35.140 captain's Zahari, his radio transmissions were weird. He was making unnecessary, unusual radio transmissions.

00:24:45.220 Uh, I, I, I noticed it. I, from the transcripts, I never heard them, but from the transcripts,

00:24:52.880 you could tell that why do you do that? This is reporting level when he shouldn't have reported

00:24:58.200 level reporting level again, when he, there was no reason he hadn't changed his altitude.

00:25:02.640 He was just, and then, and blowing some, the final response where he should have read back a

00:25:07.360 frequency and didn't do it. Why? I made a note of that and didn't have an answer when I wrote the

00:25:15.900 piece. This highly respected man approached me a little bit later, and he had been on the, associated

00:25:25.520 with the investigation in Kuala Lumpur. And he said that, um, he and a partner would have been doing

00:25:33.300 studies for years about, um, measuring stress in people's voices and largely with, uh, either cockpit

00:25:41.620 voice recorders or with, um, radio transmissions. And I'm going to get this wrong. So don't quote me

00:25:52.100 on this, but he, what he said to me, and I have every reason to believe him, a very, very sober guy

00:25:58.120 is that they know they have found that as people, people stress goes up in airplane accidents and

00:26:07.720 also in shipping, certain shipping accidents that you can measure changes in the, the timber, I think

00:26:14.860 is the word, the tone of the voice, it gets higher. Okay. As the stress goes up.

00:26:21.040 And also that the, the language becomes more and more confused. So the first level is normal,

00:26:29.680 say baseline, normal radio transmission. The second level of you, it's, it's getting a little bit

00:26:36.140 higher. The level, let's call that level two. The third level is, it's getting higher and also

00:26:43.920 confused, grammatically confused. Like they're not really talking in normal sentences. And the fourth

00:26:50.880 level is something. And the fifth level is just howling screams as people are dying. This guy's

00:26:56.620 listened to more people dying on tape than probably anybody in the world. Um, and he, he also told me

00:27:03.140 that it was, that it's 90% of pilots who die in a cockpit are screaming when they die. 10% aren't.

00:27:12.620 So, uh, and they, he doesn't know why, but 10% stay cool. And I know certain situations, uh, certain

00:27:20.360 Brazilian flight, for instance, where the Brazilian pilots just stayed cool, cool, cool, but most of

00:27:27.780 them scream. Um, and in the very end, in this flight, he measured and he had a graphed and showed me the

00:27:37.140 graphs, the changes in Sahari's voice and radio transmissions from the ground where he was talking

00:27:45.040 to ground control at the airport through the takeoff to the point of leveling off to the first

00:27:52.720 unnecessary transmissions that I had noticed were strange, but okay. I don't know why he, maybe he was

00:27:59.960 getting sloppy and it went up the scale. It got to a level, you know, three or something. He, he was,

00:28:08.260 he was mixing his language. His voice was really high. Um, Sahari and it peaked right after soon after

00:28:17.720 the initial level off at 37,000 feet. And then as the minutes went by, there were another say seven or

00:28:25.000 10 minutes before the airplane turned and disappeared. Um, his subsequent radio transmissions

00:28:31.480 began to descend that began to normalize, never gotten normal on the basis of that, though, you

00:28:38.500 know, you can't prove it at all. He believes that what happened to the co-pilot was that the captain

00:28:44.580 attacked the co-pilot right after leveling off. Now there are various ways that you can kill a guy

00:28:50.140 in the cockpit with you, including, you know, crash axes and whatever it is. Um, so he believes

00:28:58.320 that he had, has, um, audible evidence of an attack that occurred in the cockpit. I don't know if that's

00:29:08.100 true. He doesn't know if that's true. He's a sober guy. I'm a sober guy. So it's interesting. It does

00:29:15.820 make sense. We don't know exactly what happened to the first officer of the co-pilot. We, but we do

00:29:23.500 know he wasn't up there sucking his thumb when the other guy was flying for seven hours like that. I

00:29:29.440 mean, he was incapacitated too. Did the captain send him back to the bathroom? Did he go back by

00:29:36.380 himself? That would be unusual because they had just taken off from Kuala Lumpur and they hadn't been

00:29:41.100 in the air very long, um, and get locked out by the captain. Was it a lockout? We don't know,

00:29:48.340 but if he was away from the cockpit, he wouldn't have had pressure, pressure, oxygen. He would have

00:29:54.520 been just like the passengers and the flight attendants susceptible to depressurization.

00:29:59.620 We don't know. All he needed to do was come up with some excuse to get him out of the cockpit.

00:30:03.760 And then he would have been just like the other passengers. Can I just clarify something,

00:30:07.300 William? You, did you say that this gentleman picked up on radio transmissions that happened

00:30:14.540 after they signed off, you know, Malaysia flight three 70 good night. They happened after that?

00:30:21.880 No, before, before, before that good night. Um, that, that was the last radio transmission.

00:30:28.460 It, these are radio transmissions that started on the ground, call that baseline normal and ended

00:30:35.340 with the final sign off. And they peaked in their strangeness and the stress level that could be

00:30:40.420 measured in the voice and the changes in the voice right after the airplane leveled off at 37,000.

00:30:48.540 Wow. So he could have, it's possible under this theory that he could have killed the co-pilot

00:30:53.080 before he even signed off with air traffic control.

00:30:56.420 Well, yeah, I'm not tabloid. I don't think you are either. Um, and so, you know, we veer too easily

00:31:02.180 into the tabloid territory here, but it's, it is a possible explanation. And I, I, I mentioned it

00:31:08.460 because I have such deep respect for the guy who brought it up to me, who made it a special trip

00:31:14.500 to see me, um, to explain this to me with evidence. Um, and I, I've long, long known and respected

00:31:22.420 him and you can't get more sober than this guy is. He's not a crazy in any way. He's very serious.

00:31:33.340 Let's talk about possible motive and what they found at, um, Zahari's home because the flight

00:31:41.300 simulator made a lot of news. The picture of him sitting in front of his home flight simulator,

00:31:46.300 and they did find a route on there that looks like this one I'm told, but they also found routes,

00:31:54.920 you know, hundreds of routes on there. And, you know, there's a, been a debate about how much we

00:32:00.120 can really tell from the fact that that one route may have been on his flight simulator and also what

00:32:07.560 was going on in his life. You know, the Malaysians would tell us this is a happy man, well-adjusted man.

00:32:11.420 This is not a depressed guy. There's no reason to think he had it in him to kill 239 passengers

00:32:18.400 just on a whim. So can you speak a little bit about what we know of him outside of the aircraft?

00:32:25.120 Well, let's take the simulator first. We know that he had the simulator. He was a simulator buff.

00:32:29.360 He was an airplane buff. He was also an internet buff and he was in chat groups and social media and

00:32:34.800 blah, blah, blah. But he, he was running hundreds of flights. It was the Microsoft simulator, but a

00:32:41.740 fancy setup. It wasn't a full motion simulator, but it was a pretty fancy setup. Invested thousands

00:32:47.600 of dollars into this thing. He played with it a lot. So there were hundreds of flights, as you say,

00:32:54.860 that were recorded by that simulator and then rather clumsily erased. But they were kind of all over

00:33:01.620 the map. And then there was this one flight, which was also erased with the other flights.

00:33:07.060 And this flight eerily duplicated the turns, the irrational turns, the flight path with no reason

00:33:16.480 and no destination, no landing airport that actually did occur. That's number one.

00:33:22.440 Number two, and I eventually, I mean, initially put no weight in this. I thought this is,

00:33:28.140 but there are other aspects of it, which amount to that of all those flights, this was the,

00:33:39.840 I think I'm right about this. I could be wrong, but of all those flights, this was the only one

00:33:46.160 that was flown in a very particular way. Whereas the other flights, he would essentially turn on the

00:33:52.480 autopilot and let the simulator fly for hours and run the entire flight smoothly, start to finish.

00:33:58.500 Or maybe he'd stop it and didn't go get a cup of coffee and forget it. But this is a flight in which

00:34:04.520 he advanced the aircraft along that path manually. So, and it's the only one. So there was a different

00:34:12.900 approach to this flight. So he was as if he was impatient. So he's pushing it forward, pushing it

00:34:18.320 forward, pushing it forward by hand, basically manually. And then also, I think subtracting

00:34:24.900 the fuel. My impression is that the fuel subtraction was not happening automatically. So he had to

00:34:29.740 punch a few keys and take out some fuel to establish the actual fuel exhaustion point.

00:34:37.300 So there is that, which is odd. And the other thing about the simulator is that he,

00:34:46.500 there was really no reason to do this. In other words, why would you need a simulator? And that's

00:34:56.080 the other side. Like maybe this hit, maybe that's totally by chance. Because if I wanted to figure

00:35:01.800 out how I want to crash an airplane, I know how much fuel I've got on board. I know where I want

00:35:06.840 to go down if I want to run it out of gas. And I just go to Google Earth. I mean, you can do the same

00:35:12.460 thing on Google Earth. So, you know, you don't need a simulator for this. And Google Earth is free.

00:35:17.620 So why would you use a simulator? What's the answer to that, do you think?

00:35:22.000 I don't know.

00:35:24.000 I mean, is it possible it was a message?

00:35:31.360 People say that, and that he was leaving a message, a goodbye. If so, it's a really bizarre

00:35:37.620 goodbye, because he erased it, along with the other stuff. And he would then assume that the FBI

00:35:42.720 and others would come in and find it, and pull it out of the memory. And that's a really, really

00:35:50.580 obscure way to say goodbye. Was he trying to sow confusion? Well, it didn't sow much confusion.

00:35:57.480 I have no idea. And you see, unlike many observers of this accident, amateur observers,

00:36:04.780 and I'm an amateur observer, I don't claim to know everything. There are things about this accident

00:36:11.000 that are unknown, and will probably always be unknown.

00:36:17.000 What about his mental state? Was there evidence that this was a depressed guy, or his life wasn't

00:36:24.040 going well?

00:36:26.040 Yes. When I was in Kuala Lumpur on this assignment for the Atlantic Monthly,

00:36:33.280 I spent a lot of time on that, because it was so obvious to me, it became obvious really

00:36:42.400 quickly, that the airplane didn't fail, that the pilot failed, that this was an intentional act,

00:36:49.620 and it fit a pattern of other intentional acts, suicide murders, that I have written about

00:36:55.620 in the Atlantic over the years. So it wasn't...

00:37:03.280 Extremely surprising to me that a guy, a pilot, would do this. It does very rarely, but it does

00:37:09.660 occur. The list is...

00:37:12.400 I can name them. It takes probably two hands to name them. So I was immediately, well, not

00:37:21.580 immediately, but the farther I got into this, in Kuala Lumpur, wondering about what was the deal

00:37:26.480 with this guy. Well, the Malaysians were putting out a story that everything was hunky-dory. He was

00:37:33.560 sort of in a way like the co-pilot who was indeed hunky-dory, right? He was this young guy getting

00:37:39.760 married. But the more I talked to people, the more I looked around, the more obvious it became

00:37:48.160 to me that he was... Despite what the Malaysians were saying, despite what their god-awful police

00:37:55.620 report, this completely corrupted police report said, and they painted him as a model citizen,

00:38:03.380 he was deeply, deeply disturbed. He was going through, you could say, an intense midlife crisis.

00:38:11.680 You know, I think that's a polite way of putting it. He was 53. His wife had left him. His children

00:38:19.080 were grown and had left also out of the house, normally, normally. But he was alone in this

00:38:26.860 house, big house. He had two houses. His wife had moved into another house. And the first sign of

00:38:33.540 trouble I noticed was that his wife was saying, as I think one of his daughters was saying, that

00:38:40.720 everything was normal. Daddy, he's such a nice guy. Everything was fine. He was happy. He wasn't

00:38:46.640 fine. His wife had just left him. And I don't know how soon before the accident. That's some

00:38:53.620 time before. And then other things began to appear about his mental condition. He was

00:39:02.420 obsessing about some cute little internet models. They were twins, you know, far beneath his age,

00:39:11.060 you know, like professional virgins, right? He was just writing the messages. And they were,

00:39:18.980 you know, whatever the word is for that. But they were making a splash in Malaysian society

00:39:25.400 by being cute little, clean cut girls. And it was like, really inappropriate for this guy. What is

00:39:32.300 he doing? He's, he's, he's, he's 53. And they were, I think, in their 20s. That's weird,

00:39:39.400 a sign of mental distress. And then there were other things that began to add up to point to a

00:39:46.880 very unhappy man. And I really don't even talk about them. I think it's appropriate to talk about

00:39:55.740 them. But it became apparent to me that the wife and daughter were covering up for him and the

00:40:01.620 reputation of their husband, father, and also that the Malaysian government was covering up for him

00:40:08.980 because they didn't want to be embarrassed. And that's really typical for a country like Malaysia,

00:40:13.600 or let's say for Malaysia, it's very typical. It's all about face saving, covering up dishonesty,

00:40:19.880 corruption. It's a very dishonest place on some level.

00:40:25.580 When you say, when you say there's something more that you don't want to talk about,

00:40:28.700 can you give us like a category, like sexual or?

00:40:31.540 Sexual, sexual, sexual. Okay.

00:40:34.020 Yeah, sexual. But again, I, you know, I know quite a bit about that now, and I never wrote about it.

00:40:41.400 And I, I don't know, but it does explain. To me, when I was in Malaysia, I really wasn't so

00:40:48.340 interested in his motivations, his motives, because I, it became apparent to me that he had

00:40:55.440 done this. And if he had done this, uh, well, what gain would there be in finding out exactly

00:41:02.820 why he'd done it? Why are you going to get into the airline population globally and try to weed

00:41:07.880 out people who might do this for those psychological reasons? He can't do it.

00:41:10.980 We like to tell ourselves that, you know, we, we like to tell ourselves that because we want,

00:41:15.620 like to think we have some control over stopping the next guy. You know, that, that one, you

00:41:20.980 mentioned the German pilot who flew that plane into the side of the mountain was just unforgettable

00:41:25.520 and such a mystery to the rest of us civilians. Like how, what, how, you know, why didn't they see

00:41:31.320 the signs? And you think if you can figure out what are the signs, then you can prevent the next

00:41:35.860 one. Well, in that case, there was a fairly long track record of psychological problems,

00:41:42.920 the German guy, and they, you know, Lufthansa should have known, um, he, he had a real, a real

00:41:48.300 psychological problem going on with depression. And, and, uh, but in Zahari's case, no. And it's a,

00:41:55.460 it's a famous problem in aviation is you as globally, as an airline, or as a, as a, a, an aviation

00:42:03.960 regulatory agency, or as passengers, you really cannot predict who is going to crash your

00:42:10.940 airplane. It's been a problem since the beginning of aviation. It remains a problem today. It's

00:42:16.440 very, very difficult to do. If I would say it's impossible, you really can't do it on the basis

00:42:21.680 of flight hours of licenses of, you know, exams. Um, it's, it's, it's very stubborn problem. Now it's

00:42:28.900 very rare that airplane, the airline pilots crash airplanes, very, very rare, but when they do,

00:42:35.880 it's almost always a big surprise. And that's not because people are asleep at the wheel. It's the,

00:42:41.880 it's the, it's the reason is that, uh, it's just about impossible to predict. So who, so to go into

00:42:48.800 the quality of the poor and really go to ground on what his motivations were, uh, I thought at the

00:42:55.680 time was not worth my time. I mean, I, I was more interested in what was the evidence that existed

00:43:05.240 and still exists to what went wrong. And it was any possibility of a technical failure. And there is no

00:43:12.560 possibility of a technical failure, no conceivable possibility of combinations of technical failures

00:43:18.840 could have caused the airplane to do what it did before it crashed. There's nothing on earth

00:43:24.200 that could explain that it has to be human intervention. And it's pretty inconceivable that it would be

00:43:31.380 anybody other than Zahari.

00:43:35.180 Let's talk about some of the other theories that are out there. Um, one that was explored by the Netflix

00:43:41.500 documentary was they, they had a woman. I'm going to go through a few of them. So they get more,

00:43:47.700 they get progressively outlandish. We'll start with the one that's perhaps the least outlandish.

00:43:51.800 They had a woman who said she was an expert. Not really. She was like a home amateur who had become

00:43:59.420 what she felt was somewhat of an expert in detecting debris in the ocean via satellite images. And she

00:44:05.640 felt very strongly that she did find said debris, um, over in, what was the other ocean? Um, on the South

00:44:15.280 China Sea, which would have been, no, not in the Indian Ocean. She said she found debris floating.

00:44:20.380 Oh, I know what you're talking about. The French, she's French.

00:44:22.460 No, the French lady blames us, the Americans. No, there was a civilian woman in this documentary who said,

00:44:29.440 I can see via satellite images debris, uh, in the, in the, uh, South China Sea that is very consistent with

00:44:38.200 airplane debris. And the plane went down, uh, on its way to, uh, Malaysia. I mean, to, uh, China,

00:44:45.700 to Beijing, just as it was supposed to, it didn't make a turn. And why don't they just go and search,

00:44:52.300 just go and search because you'll find the debris there. So what do we, is there any chance this thing

00:44:57.180 actually did go down on course? Well, if it did go down, of course, you'd have to explain the fact

00:45:02.860 that a significant amount of debris washed up in Madagascar, right? On the other side. How do you,

00:45:07.660 how do you get, how do you get there from, from the South China Sea? You don't get there. So it's,

00:45:13.340 you'd have to go below, uh, Singapore and come up to the Malaysian. Well, no, their theory would be

00:45:18.180 that wasn't, that wasn't MH370 over on the other side, on the, on the West side, in the West Bank of

00:45:24.860 the South. We know it was MH370. We know it was MH370. Some, some of those things are unmistakably

00:45:31.180 three, MH370 because of serial numbers. Some don't have serial numbers, but we're off of triple

00:45:37.200 sevens unmistakably. Well, take an inventory of the number of triple sevens that have crashed,

00:45:41.840 uh, in the Indian ocean. So, you know, this, the debris that was found was either ambiguous. Okay.

00:45:49.100 Some of it, you really couldn't tell, or it had serial numbers. That's totally unambiguous. That was

00:45:54.440 MH370. Or it was unambiguously as triple seven without a serial number, but it was found in the

00:46:02.460 Indian ocean. So forget it. Okay. But could it, could it have been messed with? There's a suggestion

00:46:06.300 in the movie that debris found that would be consistent with all this happening over in the

00:46:11.980 West and the South Indian sea and the Indian sea, the way you're explaining that might've been dropped

00:46:16.700 there. There could have been the Malaysians interfering, right? That they, they intentionally

00:46:21.820 dropped something there or some other actors, maybe the Russians to make it look like MH370

00:46:27.240 went down in that ocean, but really it didn't. It wound up in Kazakhstan or it went down on its

00:46:33.500 way to Beijing over on the East in a different ocean altogether. What do you make of that theory?

00:46:40.440 And spirit, conspiratorial fantasy. I mean, you know, I, I make it, I, what I make of it is not

00:46:45.380 total and utter nonsense. And it's over overly embroidered, unnecessarily complicated,

00:46:53.380 requiring a level of conspiracy that doesn't exist, can exist in a country like Malaysia or any other

00:47:00.860 country for that matter. Uh, you know, what, what, what can come out will come out. And that's just

00:47:05.800 not, that's not where it's at. It's just this amateur, amateur stuff.

00:47:09.780 I mentioned Kazakhstan because there is a man named Jeff Wise who features prominently in

00:47:19.200 this doc. I don't know. I don't know if we should call it a documentary, but this film

00:47:23.460 and he's featured prominently quite a bit. He's been all over the news since this plane went down

00:47:28.760 offering different theories. And one of his theories is that the plane may have been hijacked

00:47:36.420 potentially by the Russians. Somebody may have gone down into the belly of the aircraft via a hatch

00:47:44.980 that would have been right in front of the first class department and messed with the signaling such

00:47:50.700 that it would have thrown off the Imarsat data that says pretty definitively it went South over the

00:47:58.400 Indian ocean, not North toward Russia, towards Kazakhstan. Here's a little bit of Jeff Wise, um,

00:48:04.120 offering some of, some of his theories from the film.

00:48:08.680 A modern commercial jetliner is in communication multiple ways with the outside world. All of them

00:48:16.260 went dark at the same time. Why? The most obvious answer would be catastrophic failure. Like the plane

00:48:27.980 blew up. It impacted the ocean. Um, it suffered a fire so intense that it just destroyed all the

00:48:34.840 equipment simultaneously before anyone could issue a mayday call. But the plane's debris was still not

00:48:42.700 found underneath the spot where that disruption and communication occurred. If it wasn't catastrophic

00:48:51.740 failure, what's option two? The only really obvious possibility is that somebody on board the plane

00:49:00.140 deliberately turned off its electronic communication signals. And if that's the case, the question is who?

00:49:07.840 So he goes on to say, if you want to find links between the Russians and this plane, he's not taking it to

00:49:14.820 the pilot. He's taking it someplace else. There are, there were three Russians on board this plane and

00:49:21.120 some, one of them could have gotten down into that hatch I mentioned, messed with the comms and the other,

00:49:27.480 the other tech that was down there and thrown everybody off. Perhaps the plane is sitting to this day,

00:49:34.960 someplace in Kazakhstan or elsewhere.

00:49:37.220 Well, I happen to know Jeff Wise. He's a friend of mine. Um, let's just say that I have always

00:49:48.520 respectfully and sort of vehemently disagreed with him. Um, and I've always told him that, you know,

00:49:57.420 he, he, he has presented his arguments to me, um, at length. Uh, and I, you know,

00:50:07.220 I worry about it frankly. So, um, it's, it's not in the realm of reality. So yeah, that's all I can

00:50:23.740 say. I, he's a great guy. Well, the question is it for, for what, you know, who would have had

00:50:33.140 the sophistication to get out, get down there and the ability to get down there right in the middle of

00:50:36.720 the other passengers and then have the sophistication to turn off, you know, communications

00:50:41.260 equipments and throw off the Amarsat data. I mean, that is one, that is next level sophistication

00:50:47.540 by a potential hijacker. And then the hijackers typically when they hijack, they want something

00:50:54.220 as a result of their feet and they usually claim credit. You know, none of that, none of that happened

00:51:00.820 here. Of course, you're absolutely right. I mean, it's, um, that's number one in all of us

00:51:08.840 theorizing that this was a hijack. It's not a high, it was not a hijacking. Also it would,

00:51:14.920 that particular theory required a level of sophistication in terms of understanding the,

00:51:20.480 the handshakes that we were talking about before, um, that even in Marsat didn't have when the airplane

00:51:26.580 went down. So how would the, the, the, the, the functioning of these two forms of audio

00:51:33.500 handshakes, um, and not audio, electronic handshakes, um, was not known to really anybody,

00:51:41.320 uh, for analysis. So if you don't know it in order to analyze it, how does somebody else know

00:51:47.800 it in order to hijack an airplane? It's the hoax theory, right? So it's just inconceivable.

00:51:54.240 And it delivers a level of expertise into the Russian hands when they can't even keep quiet

00:52:02.060 enough on the front in Ukraine to get off their damn cell phones, to keep from getting hit by

00:52:08.880 drones and missiles, right? Spotted. There's not a huge level of sophistication going on in Russian

00:52:16.060 culture, uh, and science. And this would require some huge level of sophistication beyond anything

00:52:22.920 to pull that off. No way. And for what reason, as you say, but also no way, um, it's just

00:52:31.740 inconceivable. Um, but you know, the music there, when you played that clip, um, you know, the drumming,

00:52:39.120 the ominous drumming and all that, that helps, I guess, make the drama. Well, here was the biggest

00:52:45.200 shock and to me, disappointment of the film. They hold in abeyance, this French journalist who pops

00:52:53.480 up every once in a while, and she's built up as a credible source. Who's probably got the answer as

00:52:58.880 we spend time with Jeff Wise's theory and with the satellite woman who's analyzing the debris, uh, over

00:53:05.440 in the South China sea. And they keep sort of teasing the French journalist as somebody who's going

00:53:10.220 to be the straight shooter who might have real answers for us. And then finally, they let her

00:53:15.440 tell us what her theory is. And her theory is we, the Americans did it. We downed the plane intentionally

00:53:22.860 because it had some sort of goods in the cargo, lithium batteries, other things, perhaps something

00:53:29.960 relating to, um, tech at a Singapore. We don't know that we needed to get rid of. And here's a bit

00:53:37.020 of this woman in the big reveal from the one they built up more, more than anybody on, on us in our role

00:53:43.140 in it. It's sought to so at 1 19 AM, any three seven zero is requested to change over to the Vietnamese

00:53:53.580 airspace.

00:54:01.700 Captain Zahari signs off. Wave is now infamous. Good night.

00:54:10.060 And this is the perfect moment for an interception to take place. So it's possible. And that moment,

00:54:18.540 the two U.S. AWOCs moved into action and jammed MH370,

00:54:34.780 making it disappear from the radar. Maybe it receives an order from the AWOCs to go and land somewhere nearby.

00:54:46.860 When Captain Zahari receives the order, it's possible that he says no.

00:54:54.620 He does not accept this order. They still need to stop the plane and its precious cargo to arrive in

00:55:02.540 Beijing. So either through a missile strike or a mid-air collision MH370

00:55:13.020 met its fate.

00:55:15.820 The theory there being, this is how she says it, the cargo, they say inside MH370's cargo

00:55:26.140 were 2.5 tons of electronics, including lithium batteries, walkie-talkies and accessories,

00:55:33.500 that the cargo was loaded without being scanned, which caused this journalist, Florence de Changer,

00:55:42.060 to believe that the cargo contained highly sensitive U.S. technology. And these two U.S. AWOC planes,

00:55:49.180 which are military planes, spotted it. And that she says they were also spotted near MH370 in the air.

00:55:57.500 They asked him to land so they could inspect the cargo. He refused to do so. And then they shot down MH370

00:56:05.180 over the South China Sea.

00:56:07.740 You know, conspiracy stuff like that demands belief in the perfection of government agencies,

00:56:19.900 also evil intent and desperation. It's just nonsense, right? Nonsense. And also, by the way,

00:56:29.340 how do you explain the debris then in the Indian Ocean?

00:56:32.780 Fake. That's what the movie suggests is fake. It's fake news.

00:56:38.180 Yeah, don't mention that. But it's, yeah, fake news. It's just nonsense, obviously. And, you know,

00:56:48.780 if you look at the history of airplane accidents, airline accidents, rare is the airline accident where

00:56:55.100 somebody doesn't come up with a reason that it was either a bomb or shot down, preferably by the

00:57:03.260 American military. And I know of only one case where the U.S. military has shot down an airliner,

00:57:11.180 and that's the Iranian airbus. And I believe the ship was the Stark, I believe, mistook it for an Iranian

00:57:23.420 war plane coming at it and shot it down and full of passengers. That was a truly horrendous mistake.

00:57:32.380 And it was, but typically, how long did it take for that to get out? A few hours. You don't keep secrets

00:57:42.220 like that in the U.S. military. The U.S. military leaks like a sieve. So, no, that didn't happen. Yes,

00:57:50.780 every time, and not every time, but many times when airplanes go down, people come out of the woodwork to

00:57:55.660 say it was a missile, it was a bomb, you know, and it sometimes is, but very rarely. I mean,

00:58:02.860 we know the Russians shot down a Korean airlines, I believe 747, that strayed over their territory way

00:58:09.980 back when, in the closing days of the 83 of the Cold War. Well, there was one more reason. It happened.

00:58:17.500 There was, there was, the Russians shot down MH17 not long after. Oh, that too. Was it after?

00:58:26.300 This one. Absolutely. That too. That too. But again, it's, it wasn't any big mystery about what happened there.

00:58:32.700 It's like, you don't keep secrets like that. And the Russians say, well, we didn't do it. They did it.

00:58:37.260 They didn't do it. We did whatever, you know. Yeah. You shot it down and it was a mistake. Almost certainly

00:58:43.260 it was a mistake in this, in this case in Ukraine. So, you know, they didn't intend to shoot it down.

00:58:49.820 So to have an intentional shoot down of this Malaysian flight. No, sorry.

00:58:55.820 I know because it had lithium batteries on it. We didn't want the Chinese to get the lithium batteries.

00:59:00.860 So we killed 239 civilians. Doesn't really sound like us. No, it doesn't. It's completely unrealistic.

00:59:09.180 I think she's, I don't know what motivates her. I think she probably believes what she says.

00:59:14.940 Most of these people do, you know, that's, that's the fever, you know, you get into that,

00:59:19.180 you get that fever, you start believing it. And that's, you say the fever, the rabbit hole.

00:59:24.460 Thank God I'm not in that category. I frankly haven't thought about this flight, you know, for a few years.

00:59:30.620 Well, the article is spectacular. So, so walk us through what, what, what happened with the investigation?

00:59:37.020 Why, you know, you had the one guy, uh, he was featured in the film as well, who was out there

00:59:43.020 finding all the debris. He had asked oceanographers, like if a plane went down in the Indian ocean,

00:59:49.420 tell me about the currents, where would the debris wash up? And the guy then went to those places.

00:59:53.180 And sure enough, he started finding debris, which as you point out, some had serial numbers,

00:59:57.260 some didn't. There were questions about whether he was plopping the stuff on the beach right before

01:00:01.820 he miraculously found it with, with press in tow. That's how the film portrays him.

01:00:07.180 Um, oh, really? Yeah. Gibson. Yeah. Do you know him? Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I think you may have

01:00:13.100 mentioned him in your article. That's really, that's really unfair. You know, it, Blaine is a

01:00:19.180 very, very complicated guy. And, you know, the idea that he would manufacture this stuff in order

01:00:27.260 to gain publicity for himself is ridiculous. I know that from deep experience with him.

01:00:32.940 Um, he's complicated and he is obsessive in life, not just with MH370. He goes from one

01:00:44.620 obsession to the other. He's an adventurer. He's a world traveler. I think he's gone to 180 countries or

01:00:51.420 190 countries. And that's his goal in life. Um, he's complicated, but he's not a, he's not a cynic.

01:01:01.260 In fact, he should be more cynical, more doubting. Um, so if the press is following him, which I didn't

01:01:09.340 know, but, um, I don't doubt that he showed up with some press in tow, but the idea that

01:01:15.980 that would be his motivation is wrong, that dismiss it, it's unfair to him as a person.

01:01:21.820 Now, what he did is that is, I think it is much less. Sorry, go ahead.

01:01:30.460 It's much less significant than what he, than, than he thinks. The finding of those, of that debris,

01:01:36.460 other people, the first debris that was found was not found by him. It was found at Réunion,

01:01:40.300 the island of, the French Isle of Réunion, um, by a beach cleaning crew. And that had a serial

01:01:47.260 number on the flapper on and was off that airplane. Uh, so, and that's the, the, the debris that was

01:01:53.980 then analyzed by the French and the, the American NTSB got involved in, in north of Paris at the

01:02:00.220 library, the French laboratory. And that's a, uh, a serious piece of debris and evidence. And it was

01:02:06.540 not Blaine Gibson who found it. Blaine Gibson did find debris that is either certainly assignable to

01:02:13.900 MH370 or likely to be MH370, along with a lot of other debris that turned out to be a fishing boat

01:02:20.540 caught on fire, that kind of stuff. And he never claimed to know the difference really. So he,

01:02:27.180 he, I, I, I like him a lot, actually. Uh, I, I, I, uh, there's, there's room in this world for

01:02:36.220 all kinds of eccentric people. He's one of them. What happened to the rest of the debris? That's

01:02:44.860 one of the questions so many people are asking and why they spent three years in the Indian Ocean

01:02:49.340 looking for something, luggage, human remains, the rest of the plane, God willing, the, the black box

01:02:58.940 recorder, you know, all of that stuff. It's hard for some people to wrap their arms around the fact that

01:03:05.660 it's all gone. We only have little pieces. Like where's the main debris?

01:03:12.540 Well, you know, the answer to that is it's at the bottom of the ocean,

01:03:15.340 probably in some deep Canyon. It's a very deep ocean there, um, that has been searched at least

01:03:22.060 once, maybe twice and missed because searching in the deep ocean, that ocean there, where it went

01:03:27.980 down, then first of all, it's a vast area, as you said. Um, it's also hadn't even been mapped,

01:03:33.100 essentially, at least in a non-classified way. Um, so, uh, it's lying at the bottom of the ocean in pieces

01:03:43.020 because we also know that it didn't hit. It was, this was not a water landing that occurred,

01:03:47.820 right? This was a high energy, high, high energy impact and the airplane shattered as airplanes

01:03:56.300 do if they hit the water at high speed. So it's little pieces, probably the most intact pieces

01:04:01.660 are parts of the engines, but, you know, try to find a couple of mediums. I mean, big engines,

01:04:08.380 big jet engines, not that big, um, compared to the size of the ocean and the depth of the ocean

01:04:13.020 and the irregularity of the, of the, of the, uh, of the ocean in that part of the, of the world.

01:04:18.300 It's not a flat plain ocean. It's cut by canyons and mountains, and you can drag devices across it

01:04:24.700 and you'll easily miss things down there, the size of skyscrapers. So it's down there somewhere.

01:04:31.660 The question is why, and I came to this very early on, like, why are they doing this? Why

01:04:37.740 it was ongoing when I, the search was ongoing when I was writing the piece basically. And I said to

01:04:42.940 many people, why are you doing this? You're not going to find anything. I mean, if you do find

01:04:46.700 anything, it's not going to matter because, um, the black box is not going to tell you anything you

01:04:52.140 don't already know. The, the, the, the cockpit voice recorder is a two hour loop. And so you hear the,

01:04:58.380 the, the, the cockpit and that's the guys is reciting his apologies to the cockpit voice

01:05:03.740 recorder. It's almost certainly was not. And, um, and the system, uh, recordings of the flight

01:05:10.860 data recorder is not going to tell you really very much of interest. It'll tell you which engine

01:05:15.180 quit first, which end with second, some stuff about the fuel, some stuff about the final speeds.

01:05:21.580 It's, uh, that's a longer loop, but, um, uh, it, it really wouldn't say anything that we don't

01:05:28.140 already know. So why are you spending all this effort, all this money to drag the ocean in the

01:05:35.820 hope of finding this thing? And in my impression at the time was if you find it, so what? And I think

01:05:43.740 that became the overall conclusion. Um, it really didn't matter to find it enough is enough. It was

01:05:50.860 driven as many, in many cases driven by political pressures, um, and the families of the dead. Yeah.

01:05:59.420 Now that's a legitimate thing. I mean, people don't want to just walk away from their dead

01:06:05.580 loved ones and say, oh, well, you know, we'll never find them, you know? So there's a huge amount

01:06:10.300 of political pressure to be compassionate. And I understand that completely, but, um, it, from a

01:06:16.540 logical point of view, strictly logical point of view, it didn't make any sense. And they finally,

01:06:20.700 they said, okay, enough is enough. Who's funding this? Do you think that there's a, there's reason

01:06:28.860 to believe that he downed the plane there knowing that it would be impossible to retrieve the remnants?

01:06:36.780 I think so. I'm no, impossible to retrieve the remnants at least put a big hurt on the search,

01:06:46.220 but I don't know how much he knew about the sub. I mean, nobody knew that much about the subsurface

01:06:52.620 ocean in that place. And he probably didn't know exactly where he was going to down it. The airplane,

01:06:58.860 we know pretty surely it ran, it went down because it ran out of gas. One engine went first, the other

01:07:05.420 engine went second, and then the, the APU little jet engine in the back cut in, cut out.

01:07:11.580 And if that was all sort of, you could tell from the satellite handshakes, what was going on in an

01:07:20.540 approximate way, but he wouldn't have known that in advance. And the simulation wouldn't have told

01:07:26.140 him that it wouldn't simulate that to that degree. So, um, you know, what were the winds?

01:07:30.300 Yeah. So I don't, I think that he wanted to bury himself and bury the memory of what he did or was

01:07:43.660 doing and bury and bury his life. No. And I mean, he did a very, very bad thing and he wasn't a very,

01:07:54.300 very bad person. He went haywire and how soon before the flight, he went haywire. There's evidence

01:08:05.420 that he had, he was going haywire for weeks before. Um, oh, I forgot to mention to you that the,

01:08:15.260 though the wife and the daughter were originally saying he was a happy, happy guy, well adjusted.

01:08:21.180 And that's what they were maintaining when I was in Kuala Lumpur. And I said, no, this is not true.

01:08:28.060 This is, this is, he was not adjusted. Well, they then came out, I don't know how long afterward,

01:08:35.260 and have since said to newspapers, I think an Australian newspaper that no, he was very,

01:08:40.540 very unhappy. Well, no kidding. Of course he was unhappy, you know, that, that, so, um,

01:08:46.780 he was very unhappy. Midlife crisis.

01:08:50.860 Hmm. My God. I mean, 239 dead. Think of how we think about Jeffrey Dahmer, Charles Manson, Ted Bundy.

01:09:01.500 They, they don't hold a candle to this guy. Like there's this, this name does not yet live in infamy.

01:09:08.380 Say again?

01:09:08.860 Think about the children that were on that airplane. That's what I think about

01:09:13.100 the children, you know, I, I mean, it's inexplicably evil, a terrible, terrible thing.

01:09:24.220 Yeah. Awful. And the thing about an airplane is that more than most modes of killing,

01:09:31.500 it lends itself to mass killing because they're big airplanes that carry a lot of people. Now,

01:09:38.060 why, if you want to kill yourself, you don't just go out and kill yourself. I don't know. Most people do.

01:09:41.580 They don't take others with them. And they, when they do that, of course, they, they, they commit

01:09:48.540 enormous violence on their friends and families. Suicide does. And it's enormously selfish and they

01:09:55.820 should be, you know, ashamed. But, um, in, in this case, and we've seen these cases before,

01:10:02.780 they decide they're going to take other people with them.

01:10:04.860 Can you explain to us the, the Malaysian government's role in this remaining quote unquote,

01:10:14.300 a mystery for so long? Like what was it there? They were just embarrassed that their pilot appeared

01:10:19.660 to be suicidal and committed this terrible act. And so they did everything possible to cover it up.

01:10:25.100 Yes. And, and, and it, it, it, again, it gets into some sexual stuff. Um, it gets into, you know,

01:10:35.180 really, uh, uh, deep, um, political stuff in, in Malaysia. And I frankly have not tracked it because

01:10:42.460 it doesn't interest me. Malaysian politics. That's the one subject that really does not interest me,

01:10:47.100 but it's certainly played a role here. He was, uh, uh, politically active. He was a partisan,

01:10:53.660 political partisan. And, um, there were, you know, his, the man he was in favor of his prime minister

01:11:00.780 was in jail and blah, blah, blah. Uh, and then out of jail. And, uh, you know, uh, the, the Malaysian

01:11:08.540 government, whether on a political level or on a bureaucratic level, right? The staff, the deep state,

01:11:16.060 um, is, is, uh, uh, scared. They're afraid and they're afraid for their careers. They're afraid

01:11:25.420 for their reputations in a small society, like a place that's a big country, but where very few

01:11:29.580 people actually run it, their friends, their careers, their reputations, their ability to make

01:11:38.300 money, uh, steal money. Um, that is, uh, that's Malaysia. It's a rough place. You know, you don't,

01:11:46.940 you can go to Malaysia as I've done a few times in the past for the Atlantic on different subjects,

01:11:53.340 piracy being one. Um, and, uh, you find that it's, uh, you can see why there are tourists there,

01:12:01.180 especially on the, along the coast, there's some beautiful beaches and resort hotels and

01:12:06.780 Kuala Lumpur. It can be, you know, it's a shopping center city and whatever, but you scratch beneath

01:12:12.140 the surface there, you start poking around areas that they don't want you to poke around and you're

01:12:17.500 taking your life in your hands. And there's no question about that. People disappear off the streets.

01:12:22.460 They do now they did then. And this is not something you just approach casually. Uh, and I have said,

01:12:31.660 you know, Blaine, if he, if he wants to really get at this and have a real adventure in life,

01:12:38.220 go back to Kuala Lumpur and start asking questions, but you know, he's, he's, he's rather paranoid and

01:12:45.580 frightened and to some extent for good reason. He, he, he worries about being killed and assassinated

01:12:52.780 or yeah, basically not arrested, but just taken off, taken out. And it's not entirely crazy.

01:12:59.260 Why aren't the Chinese, like the, the plane was filled mostly with Chinese citizens.

01:13:04.620 So why wouldn't China be putting its foot down and saying, we will find out, we will figure this

01:13:11.740 out. We do think it was your pilot. You know, why would they be so hands off on, on getting to the

01:13:19.420 real truth here? It's an, it's a version of Malaysia. I mean, it's, it's, it's kind of a,

01:13:25.180 it's a more advanced, more populated version, more powerful version of Malaysia. I mean,

01:13:29.820 look at how they responded to the COVID thing. I mean, look, they in this scenario don't have

01:13:35.500 anything to cover up that this isn't their sin. We would think they'd want a real answer.

01:13:39.580 No, I'm not sure of that because they don't want their citizens making trouble. So I can't

01:13:45.500 speak for what the Chinese authorities, I do know for sure that the Chinese authorities,

01:13:50.540 after a little bit of sympathy, told them to shut up and expressions of sympathy or demands for

01:13:57.980 further investigations that happened in China were absolutely shut down in no uncertain terms.

01:14:04.620 When that started to happen, I don't know, but it was a few months after the accident.

01:14:09.020 Initially, the Chinese were on the side of right. You know, let's find out what happened. It wasn't

01:14:18.060 one of their airplanes, but their citizens started making too much of a fuss and the Chinese don't

01:14:24.140 like fusses. So I think that's pretty much why, you know, they did that. I don't think they felt in

01:14:29.340 any way responsible for this, but they just don't like, you know, rabble rousing. They need to keep

01:14:34.940 things calm, keep a lid on it. And that's what they did. They put a lid on this.

01:14:39.500 That does sound like them. There's been so many theories. I remember being on the air when this

01:14:46.460 happened at Fox and it was such a mystery. You know, right from the beginning, it was very confusing

01:14:52.540 because nothing made sense to us civilians right off the top. We've covered a lot of airplanes going

01:14:57.740 down as news anchors, but nothing here was familiar or made sense. You may remember at the time Don

01:15:04.220 Lemon over on CNN said maybe it was a black hole that swallowed up the airplane. So there was a lot of

01:15:12.380 non-based questioning going on out there, not well-founded questioning going on out there.

01:15:16.620 What do you, what do you think, you know, has been missed? Like how, how, I guess I'm trying to ask

01:15:23.420 the fact that most news anchors and news journalists have no background in aviation. It seems to me to

01:15:30.620 have been a real handicap in covering this story well, and some being sucked down conspiracy rabbit

01:15:37.020 holes and so on as somebody who's both a journalist and a former pilot. What's been your impression?

01:15:43.260 Well, aviation lends itself to

01:15:50.060 ignorance because it does require

01:15:53.580 experience and education. It's a little bit mysterious, not very, but it's a little bit

01:15:58.380 mysterious and, you know, reporters aren't pilots or engineers and all of that. I mean, so it's basically

01:16:04.540 that, I mean, especially in a case where you don't have the NTSB. NTSB was there, but they basically fled

01:16:12.460 the investigation. In Malaysia, they would not say that, but that's what happened.

01:16:22.380 That's, that's why, because the airplane disappeared and it leaves, as I said, I don't really watch

01:16:30.380 television, but I would expect that to be the case in this case. On the other hand, I, who have covered

01:16:39.500 major airplane accidents ever since the value jet thing in the Everglades, and I've been near France

01:16:44.540 and Egypt there and things in Brazil. I've been all over the world covering. That's not what I really

01:16:50.620 primarily do, but it's what I've been assigned to do at the request of my editors for years. So I've been

01:16:58.380 to many of the really big airplane accident investigations. I know that I normally don't

01:17:05.100 even start into them until a year has gone by and let the crowd wander on. And then I come in

01:17:13.660 with a very long article and very knowledgeable because frankly, I grew up with around airplanes

01:17:18.300 and my friends are, I have deep friends among accident investigators who talk to me both in Europe

01:17:23.900 and in the United States. They trust me because I don't write nonsense. On the other hand, on the

01:17:31.900 third hand, I had an early experience with the value jet accident in the Everglades where a DC-9,

01:17:41.100 an airplane you don't see anymore, the little twin jet belonging to value jet went down in the

01:17:45.980 Everglades. And it was, it turned out to be a cargo fire, oxygen canisters, a really interesting story.

01:17:52.140 I went down to Miami for that, for the Atlantic. And this is a long time ago. And I was

01:17:59.900 holding myself to be superior to these reporters who were around. These are, you know, television

01:18:04.380 reporters, national and local reporters, normal reporters. And I was naive and kind of snobby about

01:18:13.020 it within my own mind. I didn't make that clear to them, but I thought you guys, you know, I know what

01:18:17.740 this was. This was an electrical fire. I know that because I, as a cargo pilot, had had a series of

01:18:23.980 electrical fires that looked a lot like the fire that took this airplane down. And so I thought,

01:18:28.620 yeah, you guys, whatever. Well, it turned out they were right and I was wrong. So now it was easy for

01:18:34.140 me because I didn't have to write anything about it for a year. So I ended up not looking like a fool.

01:18:39.500 So I earned an early lesson to respecting the non-technical aspect of normal reporters,

01:18:50.860 the ability of reporters to get to a story that they are not experts in, and actually maybe do

01:18:57.980 better than an expert like me. I am an expert in aviation, much as I sort of regret it.

01:19:03.260 They did a better job than I did. And for me, it was a profound lesson. So I'm the last person who's

01:19:10.940 going to denigrate. I don't know what they're saying about MH370. I don't watch TV. I don't know.

01:19:17.740 But I will never denigrate reporters. Plus, I spent three years in Baghdad where, you know, where I

01:19:25.740 watched my closest proximity to normal reporters, which I'm not. I came away from that. Well,

01:19:33.180 very early on, I developed a deep respect for the reporters, the ordinary reporters, you know,

01:19:38.780 Chicago Tribune, New York Times, blah, blah, blah, TV reporters, CNN. They were around me,

01:19:45.180 that I had never really been around these people before. And I watched them almost as much as I

01:19:50.620 watched the war. And I came away from it with a deep respect for their courage, for their intelligence,

01:19:58.780 for their ability to learn quickly. And I, again, I'm the last person who's going to criticize

01:20:06.540 normal reporters for their lack of expertise. In Iraq, they knew exactly what was going on.

01:20:14.460 Very early, they knew we were losing the war. And they had a problem transmitting that information

01:20:20.060 to the American public, because they had to be filtered by the institutions that sent them

01:20:24.700 there, the editors and the readers and so forth. But the reporters were incredibly smart,

01:20:30.940 dedicated, brave beyond belief. And so, I'm a fan.

01:20:36.060 Oh, well, let me ask you this, as somebody who has had lengthy experience reporting on these many

01:20:43.420 accidents, I mean, to someone like me, it affects me as a journalist, it affects me as a mom,

01:20:47.740 as a human, and as an airline traveler, because I'm not the strongest, most secure person when I'm up

01:20:57.740 there. I definitely have a fear of flying. And things like this are very scary, you know,

01:21:03.820 to the stuff you were saying about how he could just depressurize the airplane, and

01:21:08.380 in a couple of minutes, you'd be dead. Like, I realize how incredibly rare this is. But just a word

01:21:14.620 from you in parting on the safety of air travel, and what people like me should be remembering when we

01:21:22.700 go up there. Well, I mean, it's often said, and usually believed, but that airplanes are very,

01:21:30.460 very, airline travel is very, very safe. And that is correct. I mean, statistically, you just,

01:21:35.420 this cannot be denied. So being afraid of flying on the airlines is sort of like being afraid of

01:21:40.540 crossing the road. And you would, of course, I mean, I would, and do willingly send my small

01:21:46.620 children, I've got small children, and older children, get on the airplane, no problem, whatever.

01:21:52.860 No problem. I don't, I don't think about it. Like, who's flying the airplane when I'm not flying the

01:21:56.860 airplane? You know, who's, who's in front of me? Fine. And that a lot of them are not very smart

01:22:01.900 people. But the system is so monitored and dependent on teamwork and training and this and that that it

01:22:10.700 turns out to be very, very safe. And it's become that way, partly, largely through engineering, which

01:22:16.060 starting, starting with the advent of the jet engine in the 1960s, and the airplane, the job

01:22:21.260 got more and more boring and more and more safe, right? So that's number one. It doesn't take much

01:22:27.980 to fly one of these airplanes. And, and, and you got two guys, or women, a man, a woman, whoever,

01:22:33.740 who can do it in the front. That's number one. Number two, if you look at the, the thing that seems to

01:22:40.940 scare people the most from my casual observation and conversation, you know, around dinner table,

01:22:48.140 it's turbulence, right? And I know that dominates in a terrible way, the lives of airline pilots.

01:22:55.260 They go around, they tiptoe around, uh, uh, the, the, the passengers fear of turbulence. It's

01:23:03.100 terrible because they only have one life and the passengers threshold for turbulence is ridiculous.

01:23:10.140 The airplanes can handle a whole lot more turbulence than the passengers can. There's

01:23:15.180 no problem with turbulence. When I get in severe turbulence and I had a job, my last job is flying

01:23:20.620 and hunting severe weather, right? So going into severe turbulence and other forms of severe weather

01:23:27.420 on purpose for a few years, I did that. And, uh, I was transitioning to journalism, but, um, yeah,

01:23:34.300 you know, we hunted the worst weather nationwide in the U S, uh, nationwide and flew into it for days on

01:23:43.900 end. And, um, um, um, for technical reasons, it was a job, but point is we were flying into conditions

01:23:53.900 that no airliner ever goes into ever, ever, uh, they, they, they, you, they get a few little bumps,

01:24:01.660 which would, which would be not even worth thinking about it for a pilot. And people are writing letters

01:24:08.220 to the Senator and the Congressman. I mean, they think they're dying. That's a big problem. And it's

01:24:13.500 totally unnecessary. The airplanes are extraordinarily strong. And the, the, to give you an example,

01:24:20.940 and we would find a turbulence, um, that would, is so rough that you couldn't see the instrument

01:24:26.700 panels, right. It's shaken so hard. Um, and also that would, depending on the design of the seatbelt

01:24:32.460 and so forth would bruise your thighs. You know, you have a shoulder harness too, but you can, you come

01:24:36.700 away with it from it bruised, physically bruised. The airplane didn't care. It's fine, but tell that to

01:24:43.580 the passengers. So if there's one thing you can say very specific, uh, other than check the statistics,

01:24:50.300 it's safe globally and safe for a reason, and then you can say very specifically,

01:24:57.420 learn about turbulence, you know, don't be afraid of turbulence. That's

01:25:04.940 one more thing. I had a assignment from Vanity Fair. I, after the Atlantic was working Vanity Fair,

01:25:11.820 they came up with the idea of sending me to find the worst airline in the world and fly with it.

01:25:15.820 Oh, and I, the most unsafe airline in the world and fly with them. And they,

01:25:20.940 I found them in Kinshasa. That's a terrible assignment.

01:25:25.660 What are they trying to kill you off? It was great. No, I thought it was great. No,

01:25:29.500 no, it's great. I had a great time and, and up in the cockpit of these old Soviet turboprops flying

01:25:37.100 around Congo and just really a lot. But anyway, these airlines are blacklisted, right? You can't

01:25:44.220 take them anywhere out of Congo and they crash all the time. Okay. They're not like the airlines here.

01:25:49.020 They don't crash. They hardly ever crash. Those guys, they crash them all the time. Sometimes they

01:25:54.380 die. Sometimes they don't usually don't die, but I went, um, and, and, and I truly had a great time

01:26:02.060 doing that for a few weeks with these pilots. Why? How was that a great time? You're a crazy

01:26:08.300 man. Who would say yes to that? Who would say yes? No. How was that fun? No. The point is that's

01:26:16.060 how safe airplanes are. You know, they don't crash. And if they do crash, they're probably not

01:26:21.900 going to kill you and whatever. It's fine. You know, and by the way, everybody dies sometimes.

01:26:28.540 Oh God, that is of no comfort when you're up there and thinking it's this time it's right now. Um,

01:26:35.580 yeah, but everything else you said, that was a soothing bomb. I I'm going to be thinking about

01:26:41.660 that story about going into the bad weather and the plane can take a lot more than we allow it to.

01:26:46.700 You know, I would say that all you need is just like the, just the jolly word from the captain.

01:26:52.300 That's all I would, I would bear out the turbulent ride. If you know, just be nice to have the pilot

01:26:57.180 say like, Oh, no extra charge for the fun ride. Something like that. Keep us going.

01:27:02.140 Uh, as long as you can hear there's no panic.

01:27:04.540 It's so burned out. If you look at the air traffic control conversations,

01:27:09.740 the percentage of those are right. We're known as ride reports. So they're seeking from air traffic

01:27:16.780 control ride reports from airplanes that are going ahead of them. And it's a lot of rider reports,

01:27:22.780 rider reports, rider reports. It's really awful. It's awful for the lives of the pilots. And so it

01:27:28.860 put, you put you in a bad mood and every time you get in turbulence, you have to excuse it to the

01:27:33.660 passengers. It makes you really surly in a hurry because it's such not a problem and it's messing with

01:27:40.540 the lives of the pilots. Ah, okay. Well that, that also makes me feel better. I mean, we need,

01:27:46.620 we need to be a little tougher because they do. I mean, I appreciate when they tell you it's going

01:27:50.060 to be bumpy. Okay. It's fine. It's gonna be bumpy, but they need to be saying it's going to be bumpy

01:27:53.900 and we're going to be fine. You don't have to worry about the bumps. I mean, like that,

01:27:57.020 that should be the second part of the message, which it isn't. Yeah. Well, people don't believe in.

01:28:01.820 You have been wonderful, William. Gosh, it's so nice to meet you and have such a clear thinker and

01:28:08.460 researcher and talker on the show and something this complex. What a pleasure. Please come back.

01:28:13.420 Thank you very much. Oh, what an incredible story. My gosh,

01:28:18.540 just a sad, strange mystery that may never get fully officially solved, but really gets you

01:28:25.740 thinking right. And a perfect way to end our hot crime summer week. I want to tell you that I am

01:28:30.700 off next week, spending some time traveling with my family for our summer vacay. We will be back with

01:28:36.460 you on June 26th live to talk about all the news. Have a great, great week. And I'll talk to you soon.

01:28:46.140 Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - June 16, 2023

What Happened to Missing Plane MH370： A Megyn Kelly Show True Crime Special ｜ Ep. 574

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