What the Epstein Files REVEAL About Blackmail and Connections, and Nancy Guthrie Latest, with Jashinsky, Grim, Shellenberger, and More ｜ Ep. 1255
Episode Stats
Length
3 hours and 28 minutes
Words per Minute
183.57758
Summary
Epstein files have been released, and there's a lot to unpack. Megyn kelly and Alex Blumberg break down the latest details in the Epstein case, including new details about the investigation into Nancy Guthrie and her alleged involvement with Epstein.
Transcript
00:00:00.000
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Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.
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We're going to have a full breakdown of the latest in the Nancy Guthrie case coming up in two hours.
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But we are devoting the live portion, the first two hours of our live portion, to the Epstein files.
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There's been so much happening as a result of these documents that were released a few weeks back.
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Attorney General Pam Bondi announced over the weekend, just this past weekend, that the Department of Justice has made public, quote,
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all files required by the Epstein Files Transparency Act, which President Trump signed into law just a few months ago on November 19th.
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There have been questions about whether that's true.
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In total, there are more than 3.5 million pages of documents, 2,000 videos, and 180,000 images in the latest dump.
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You can search them for yourself on justice.gov slash Epstein, which we've been doing here as a team for the past week.
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Basically, every celebrity or public figure you can think of comes up in this search.
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And you have to be very careful, very careful about it, because what the FBI did originally, or what the DOJ did when they released this,
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was they released a whole list of complaints received by the FBI about just anybody.
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So, like, anybody who could have called up during the Trump presidency and been like, Trump raped me.
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It would be listed in the FBI database of complaints about various people.
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You'd have to say it would happen at Epstein's mansion or what have you.
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And people were going with it all over the Internet.
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It was like, okay, we've really gone too far on releasing every document, but that's what the law required.
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And, you know, there are irresponsible people who took all of those complaints like they were real,
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even the ones that said, not credible, not credible, not credible, not credible.
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But there is a lot of very interesting stuff in here.
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As I say, it's going to take years to go through all of this.
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We could still be getting major revelations for months, and we will follow up when and if we do.
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But from what we have seen so far, these documents do provide a window into the global elite
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and how they behave when they think no one's watching.
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Do these new documents shed any light on the question of whether or not Jeffrey Epstein ran a pedophilic ring
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that trafficked underage girls to those around him?
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Basically, the 14 and 15 and 16-year-old girls that we've heard about were largely recruited for him.
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But what's important to understand, again, the first time he went to jail in the mid-late 2000s,
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it's on charges that he is soliciting underage girls to get massages.
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And when he gets out of jail, he appears to change tactics.
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He seems to decide he's going to be more careful about the law.
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What we see is a form of trafficking after he gets out of prison that relies mostly on women who were a bit older,
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18 and 19-year-old women from Eastern Europe than the victims we know about from before he died.
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I mean, they were a bit older, but they were still equally vulnerable in a different way with a different legal definition.
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That was the New York Times doing its deep dive in a podcast that I've actually found very helpful.
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And they're saying there's just no evidence in here of a pedophile ring.
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And they point out in that same podcast that there was even a prosecution memo
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that was contained in the latest batch of documents where the prosecutor said what they looked at
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and what they did not find was evidence of a pedophile ring, though they did look.
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And they did find 14-, 15-, and 16-year-old girls that were recruited for Epstein,
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not for a web of friends, but for Epstein, prior to his initial plea deal.
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Prior to the initial plea deal that he struck in 2008 when Dershowitz was his lawyer.
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So he was abusing these young teenage girls back then.
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That's what became so controversial because then in 2018, the Miami Herald dropped its reporting saying
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there were dozens of girls and he only had to answer for like two.
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Two, thanks to Allen, Allen did what, you know, defense lawyers are supposed to do.
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And it's the prosecution's fault for agreeing to it without consulting the victims, by the way,
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But it does appear, I haven't gone through all the documents,
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but it does appear from the New York Times reporting that after his plea deal,
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Epstein got smarter and started sticking to girls who were of age
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And I have to tell you, it's a very interesting question because
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obviously that's a totally different kettle of fish than a 14-year-old girl
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because now you're an adult in the eyes of the law.
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I mean, you're capable of consenting when you are 19 years old,
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but you are still capable of being sex trafficked.
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I mean, the whole case against P. Diddy revolved around whether he had sex trafficked Cassie
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and other of his girlfriends by strong-arming them into sex with these sex workers.
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Ultimately, the jury did not find him guilty of that.
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But we had a whole prosecution, the implicit acceptance of which was it can be done to an adult woman
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who's even in a love relationship with the defendant.
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So it's not really an answer to whether Jeffrey Epstein was a sex trafficker
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to say all of his alleged victims were of age when he was having whatever relationship he was having with them.
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But I do think we need to get into this with that right mindset.
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The young teen thing, according to the New York Times,
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which has had a whole team going through all these documents,
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they say appears to have stopped after he got arrested and struck that initial plea deal in 08.
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Then he goes forward with the of-age Russians and Eastern Europeans.
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And now there is a question about whether they were serially sex trafficked
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And I have to say there's a lot of evidence of that in there.
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Now, were they all sex trafficked victims or were some just gold diggers?
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I mean, the difference between a gold digger and a sex trafficking victim is force, coercion.
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I know a lot of women who make that same choice.
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I've known throughout my adult life a lot of women who decide to make that same choice.
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Or they just want to be with the richest guy they can find.
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And they don't really care whether he loves them or not.
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They give it up because they want to be taken care of.
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Wouldn't be my choice, but it's an adult woman's choice.
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But when you find an adult woman, 18 or above, and you threaten her that if she doesn't go with your friend, let's say Prince Andrew, just to pick a name out of the air, you're going to punish her.
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You could possibly release a naked tape of her.
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Now you're talking coercion, and the person is not necessarily there of her own free will.
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And that could convert you into a sex trafficker.
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And those are the allegations against Diddy, remember?
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It was like, when Cassie wants to be with you, there's some evidence she wanted to participate in these freak-offs.
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But then there's a lot of evidence that she no longer did.
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Either during the freak-off itself, you know, she ran out of the will to do it, and from that point forward, when you beat her in the back room to make her go back out there, or, you know, over a period of years, it no longer became appealing to her, force and coercion was used, which is why that became a sex trafficking case.
00:10:07.200
They said, eh, she got a lot of—I think they, frankly, put her more in the field of the gold digger.
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And so this, to me, what these documents are showing so far is, okay, not a pedophile ring, but a sex trafficker, an alleged sex trafficker, and unlike with the 14- and 15-year-olds who he was getting for himself to perform these X-rated massages on himself with the so-called happy ending.
00:10:36.600
And I know, as I told you, I have a source who's very well-connected in this case, who is very well-connected to Epstein, was.
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And this source has told me that Epstein used to get the young girls to go find the next young girl, and he would pay them.
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And it would always be girls who were from the wrong side of the tracks, who needed money, and they would do it.
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They were getting him to finish off with their hand or sometimes oral sex.
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And that was his MO, if you will, in the first go-around.
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And then his MO, when he got more connected, when he became richer, was focused more on these other older girls and on this enormous circle of influence that he had been building.
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And I don't know if there's ever been somebody as well-connected as Jeffrey Epstein, from Prince Andrew to President Bill Clinton, Donald Trump when he was still a young playboy businessman.
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I mean, thank God for Donald Trump, he ended all relationship with Jeffrey Epstein very, very early on in Epstein's, you know, rise to fame and wealth.
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And so there's almost nothing, there are some references to Trump, but like not involving all that stuff that happened, you know, from leading up to 2008 and thereafter.
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There's weird other allegations, like I said, about the FBI document.
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But this is not what I've seen about Donald Trump.
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It is about tons of rich men in America and overseas, tons, who not only wanted Epstein's advice financially, they wanted his little love letters like Lauren Summers when he was, you know, the president of Harvard, on like how to get the girl to call him back.
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Remember, the woman he was having the affair with, wasn't sure she liked him.
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In that same New York Times podcast on The Daily, they were pointing out Deepak Chopra, Deepak Chopra was having this intense back and forth with Epstein and Deepak said to Jeffrey Epstein, quote, how can I be sure that I'm eternal?
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People go to that guy as though he's a guru with all sorts of deep life advice, the meaning of life and so on.
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They also talk about Prince Andrew, who we'll get to in a second, where he opens up.
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This is the New York Times about the restraints of royal life and how difficult it can be to be a royal.
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And the person he's opening up to is not his therapist or a family member.
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In another email quoting here from The Times, Epstein is arranging for Prince Andrew to meet a woman.
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And he tells Andrew, she's 26, Russian, clever, beautiful, trustworthy.
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And Andrew responds, sounding like a high school boy with a crush.
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It is amazing, like, the amount of connections he had.
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And lots of these people have been lying about how close they were to Jeffrey Epstein.
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Most of them, I would venture to say, have been lying or at least downplaying their relationship with him, which I understand, given how toxic that name is now.
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But it really doesn't do anybody any good, especially, I mean, like, some of the people lied and we're going to get to them by name.
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Knowing that these files were about to come out, like, how dumb is that?
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It's one thing to be a liar, but like a dumb liar, that's a bad combo, bud.
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And so they've had a lifetime of getting away with it and of thinking they can behave with impunity.
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And that in large part is what this story is about.
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No direct indication of a blackmail operation either that we know of.
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We'll talk about whether there is circumstantial evidence of it.
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And no smoking gun either, by the way, that he was employed directly by an intelligence agency.
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He says he was Israeli intelligence and worked for Ehud Barak.
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So, may not be in the documents, but it is in B.B. Netanyahu's hand, the truth.
00:15:06.620
But there is still a great mystery about how he became so rich.
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Non-college graduate from Coney Island, no family connections, and super close, ultimately, to the likes of Bill Clinton.
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The immediate post-president presidency, Bill Clinton.
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2001 to 2004 was when Bill Clinton kept going on his jet 17 times.
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I mean, this is the height of Bill Clinton's post-presidential power.
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And not to mention the years with Donald Trump, as I said.
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How he stayed so close, Epstein did, to the likes of Bill Gates, who really just comes off so poorly in all this, Steve Bannon, and as I say, Prince Andrew, even after he had to register as a sex offender for one crime that was solicitation of a minor for prostitution, which is not a thing.
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They can only be a victim of a perverted older man, which is absolutely what Jeffrey Epstein was.
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The fallout for just being associated with Epstein has been swift for some.
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Former Obama White House counsel, Catherine Rumler, she resigned from her role as Goldman Sachs' top lawyer.
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We told you about—we were the ones who broke that news.
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Do you remember right here on this show when I told you about the news about how tight Steve Bannon had been to Jeffrey Epstein, who's a friend of mine?
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It brought me no joy to report that news, but I did it because it's my job, and we named, for the first time right here on The Megyn Kelly Show, former Obama White House counsel, Catherine Rumler, as a close confidant of Jeffrey Epstein, and we saw her all over his correspondence after having seen her in a tape.
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We saw her or heard her in an audio tape that we were provided.
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Remember a couple years ago when I said, this year, I think you're going to hear from Jeffrey Epstein directly?
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That's how he is defending his behavior with Epstein, saying it was all as part of his role as a filmmaker, which he actually is,
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and a journalist trying to get all this tape, which he says is going to result in a film to be released within the next year.
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If you read any of this correspondence, you'll see that she loved Jeffrey Epstein.
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And, okay, you should come out and say we were friends.
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It was hard because she was super friendly with him post the Miami Herald investigation, and she couldn't say that.
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I guess if I were Catherine, I would have said, let me be honest.
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I didn't believe that he was some mass pedophile or sex trafficker.
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I knew he had pleaded out these two ultimately minor counts in 2008.
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Then I saw the Miami Herald thing, and I thought it was an unfair hit piece by a fucking lunatic, Julie Brown, who's a hard leftist.
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And I didn't—she's a lunatic because she's so partisan.
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She's a decent reporter, but she's just so nasty.
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She won't talk to a conservative audience and let her reporting be tested or herself be tested, which is very undermining.
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I actually have known Jeffrey for a long time, and I believe in him.
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That would be a way out, but instead all these people downplay or they deny or they go underground.
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Well, she's caught red-handed now that we've seen the papers, and she's out of her job as the Goldman Sachs top lawyer because it's all in black and white now.
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He lost his job after the file showed he emailed Epstein about women.
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And, I mean, that underplays what's in the files about him.
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He's talking about dreaming about the Russian woman again and, like, the age of the woman.
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And Casey Wasserman, the chairman of the 2028 Olympics in Los Angeles, is now facing calls to step down after having already announced he's going to sell his agency in the wake of a scandal, this scandal involving his name in the Epstein files, for having flirtatious emails with Epstein's partner in crime, Ghislaine Maxwell, all the way back in 2003.
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In 2003, he was supposed to car-nack his way through to understanding when nobody knew back then that Jeffrey Epstein was a sex trafficker and Ghislaine Maxwell helped him and actually did some bad things herself.
00:20:10.440
We already made that mistake the original time in Salem, and then again in the Me Too era, like, can we not, like, just assume everybody's a pedophile just because their name might show up in the Epstein files, okay?
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Then let's not presume every single one of these women who says she's a victim is a woman who's been a victim either.
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Like, normally those tests, claims have to be tested in law, and the vast majority of them have not been.
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Now, in the women's defense, he's dead, so it's kind of hard.
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The women should have to be identified, in my view.
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I don't agree with the anonymity of this release.
00:20:49.580
Okay, so we just have to accept victim, but we get to hear the guys' names, but not the women.
00:20:55.940
That's basic due process being denied to the men whose names are in here.
00:21:02.100
President Trump says he's been exonerated and that it's the Clintons who have been wrapped up further in the scandal, and he's not wrong.
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They went in hoping that they'd find it and found just the opposite.
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In fact, Jeffrey Epstein was fighting that I don't get elected with some author.
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They're getting pulled in, and that's their problem.
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But I watched her in Munich, and she seriously has Trump derangement syndrome.
00:21:43.060
But perhaps none of these global elites and celebrities have much to worry about beyond reputational damage,
00:21:47.860
because Deputy Attorney Todd Blanche signaled earlier this month no further prosecutions are coming.
00:21:54.240
I can't talk about any investigations, but I will say the following, which is that in July,
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the Department of Justice said that we had reviewed the files, the, quote, Epstein files,
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and there was nothing in there that allowed us to prosecute anybody.
00:22:07.240
We then released over three and a half million pieces of paper, which the entire world can look at now and see if we got it wrong.
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And so it's not performative, and I respectfully disagree with that statement.
00:22:18.880
We were ordered to do so by Congress and then by the President of the United States, and that's what we did.
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And let me, you know, I said it on Friday, this Justice Department, the FBI, DHS, we have gone after more sex traffickers,
00:22:34.080
more child pornographers, more men who have done harm to children and young women than any administration in history.
00:22:41.340
And so we need to separate those two ideas, the fact that there's the Epstein files and whether there's anybody there that we can go after,
00:22:47.880
and the work that we are doing every day, which is extraordinary, and we will continue to do that.
00:22:54.880
Joining me now for reaction and additional insights are three guests who have been meticulously going through the Epstein files
00:23:03.660
MK Media's own Emily Jashinsky, she hosts After Party with Emily Jashinsky.
00:23:08.480
The program note for you, it's now live at 9 p.m. Eastern on YouTube on Mondays and Wednesdays.
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And now it's 9 because she's tired, just like the rest of us.
00:23:24.180
And she also hosts the MK Wrap-Up show right here on SiriusXM after our show.
00:23:28.480
We also have Ryan Grimm, CounterPoints co-host and reporter for DropSite News,
00:23:33.260
and Michael Schellenberger, founder of the Public News Substack.
00:23:38.400
All three have broken major stories from the files so far and are great journalists,
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Okay, so how do you like my summary of where we are?
00:24:53.620
Ryan, let me start with you because we don't get to talk to you that often.
00:24:55.780
How do you like my summary of what we've gleaned from the files so far?
00:25:04.440
One thing I'd pick up on is this complaint that we're now seeing.
00:25:10.960
Complaint that we're seeing from some elites about a lack of due process.
00:25:18.380
Are people getting caught up in this who don't deserve to?
00:25:32.460
And I think, and I would put forward, that it's because the public recognizes that there
00:25:38.440
is an elite class, which, you know, Asaf and Ro Khanna have called the Epstein class,
00:25:46.720
It operates in total, it operates with total impunity.
00:25:52.880
And so the public is left with only their ability to generate so much outrage that it
00:26:06.820
But because there are no defined mechanisms of accountability, it's not like the public,
00:26:11.900
you know, has an opportunity to say, okay, we're going to prosecute this person.
00:26:15.740
We're going to let them go through these different stages of due process.
00:26:18.760
They can present evidence, we'll present evidence, we'll go to a jury.
00:26:21.480
Like, that doesn't, nobody believes that that exists.
00:26:25.340
We have this class, it's a global class that exists outside of democracy.
00:26:31.080
And that, you know, if you believe that some people are going to go down for this unfairly,
00:26:38.020
And something then needs to be done about that.
00:26:40.260
There's this old saying that, you know, we'll either get, you know, socialism or barbarism.
00:26:44.520
In this case, I would say you either get accountability or barbarism or democracy or barbarism.
00:26:50.260
And so if, if there are elites right now who don't like what they think of as a barbaric
00:26:56.840
response to the barbaric behavior that the public has seen going on, you know, with impunity
00:27:02.880
inside these elite circles, then you need to address the fact that there is this class
00:27:12.700
We don't have a democratic government if a class like this can exist.
00:27:18.880
That's very interesting, Emily, because this, at its heart, the whole Epstein scandal is about,
00:27:24.080
I think, a revulsion with this kind of elitism.
00:27:27.700
You know, there is, I think most Americans are feeling that.
00:27:34.200
And a lot of Ryan's reporting at DropSite that I'm sure he'll talk about goes into how
00:27:38.980
anti-democratic a lot of the activities that were being organized by Jeffrey Epstein, by
00:27:46.060
I mean, one of the more interesting things, if you spend time in the Justice Department's
00:27:50.000
library, is you just kind of get a sense of the social circle around Jeffrey Epstein,
00:27:56.060
And also, Jmail over at DropSite, you can literally be in a facsimile of his inbox.
00:28:01.460
And so you see the circle of people like Reid Hoffman, Bill Gates.
00:28:04.540
Bill Gates is second in command, essentially, the Norwegian prime minister, who is now in
00:28:09.660
Tom Pritzker, who resigned as executive chair of Hyatt just yesterday.
00:28:13.680
Larry Summers, Kathy Rumler being a very good example.
00:28:17.620
This is his tight inner ring, and they're making decisions about global politics and
00:28:23.980
business like it's a sandbox that they're playing in.
00:28:27.440
And you see, I mean, there are all kinds of specific examples, but the complete picture
00:28:31.480
is just how undemocratic the process is in some of these decisions that they were making.
00:28:38.760
And it's completely disgusting how flippant they are about some of those decisions, how
00:28:43.620
much they profited from some of those decisions, as Ryan has reported out.
00:28:48.640
And yeah, the evidence is, if you're a member of the public and you're looking at this and
00:28:52.940
you felt already disillusioned about the state of America, you're going to leave feeling even
00:29:00.400
I'm like, I know, I don't want to beat up too much on Deepak Chopra, Michael, but it is,
00:29:05.300
it's just perfect for this story, that even that guy was in there, like, looking to Epstein
00:29:12.980
I like your take on these files and what we've seen.
00:29:18.880
And yeah, I mean, I agree with Emily and Ryan, I mean, and you, I mean, this is a glimpse
00:29:22.700
into the serious corruption of our ruling elites.
00:29:31.500
I do think that we have to distinguish between two separate, two different sets of things.
00:29:37.100
And I think one is Epstein's relationships with the intelligence community, his relationships
00:29:45.220
I think one of the most important of these messages that we saw in the most recent release
00:29:49.640
is the fact that Epstein was paid $25 million by Ariana de Rothschild to settle a Department
00:29:57.500
of Justice claim, and then another $10 million went to his attorney and friend, Catherine
00:30:06.240
Yeah, that was the, you know, U.S. attorney for, or was the White House attorney under
00:30:16.520
She was, according to that email, it looked like she was facing an $85 million fine, potentially,
00:30:22.800
and somehow Epstein and Rumler, his BFF, intervened to get it cut down to $45 million,
00:30:33.680
But Rumler all along has been like, I barely knew him.
00:30:36.980
I don't usually get $10 million from people I barely know, but-
00:30:40.640
Well, Rumler was also exchanging, sorry, but she was also exchanging like extremely intimate
00:30:44.560
emails with Epstein about her personal life, and in addition to all kinds of professional
00:30:51.140
She's all over, those tapes that we broke, that we reported on, that I heard, with Rumler,
00:30:58.040
Bannon, and Epstein, she's all over these tapes.
00:31:00.960
She's advising Epstein on how to rehab his image, and they do a mock 60 minutes type sit
00:31:12.520
This is post the Miami Herald reporting in 2018.
00:31:16.180
Michael, you were saying, sorry I interrupted you.
00:31:18.800
Yeah, I mean, so I mean, I think there's this, you know, he also talked about Bill Barr as
00:31:23.760
We know, you know, thanks in part to Ryan's reporting, we know that Epstein, you know,
00:31:28.520
had as a client Adnan Khashoggi, who was a central player in the Iran-Contra, the illegal
00:31:34.360
Iran-Contra scandal of the 1980s involving, that the CIA oversaw.
00:31:39.000
You know, Rumler emailed Epstein to say that she got this, you know, the highest award from
00:31:45.460
That's a secret award, by the way, and she felt comfortable telling Epstein about it.
00:31:55.660
Right after, by the way, her job in the Obama White House, I'm sorry, keeping it right,
00:31:59.620
but her job in the Obama White House was to, at one point, deal with the fallout from
00:32:03.540
the Snowden scandal, so she leaves the White House and then goes and gets an award from
00:32:08.820
John Brennan at the CIA, and on, Ryan said, as Ryan said, on an open email, breaks Epstein
00:32:16.800
She's looking for a little pat on the head, Ryan.
00:32:18.980
She's like, oh, hey, look what I got, Daddy, and he doesn't respond, but give us context
00:32:23.380
She also played a role, the White House suppressed the torture report.
00:32:28.240
There was that, there was even a Hollywood movie about it now, but, you know, they put together
00:32:32.740
this many hundred pages report about the torture that the U.S. had been engaged in during the
00:32:39.820
Bush administration, and the Obama administration's worked extremely hard to suppress it on behalf
00:32:49.280
That was an intense mission that they undertook, and I would suspect that Rummler's role in
00:32:57.360
that also contributed to her winning this award, but, you know, sorry, Michael, you were...
00:33:00.740
Yeah, no, I mean, so, I mean, I think that, for me, the big story remains Epstein's relationship
00:33:06.480
to the intelligence community, to the U.S. government.
00:33:12.820
That's just not an obvious thing that someone would have working in finance.
00:33:22.300
It was an Austrian passport, but with a Saudi address.
00:33:29.120
Like, I'm sure all three of you have an extra passport from another country.
00:33:38.200
Because I was saying in the intro, you know, if you were just to read the articles about
00:33:42.020
what's in these files, they wouldn't say that he was an asset to anybody.
00:33:44.500
But Bibi Netanyahu came out and wrote that himself a couple of months ago.
00:33:48.140
Yeah, I mean, it looks like he was somebody that was involved in, you know, was involved
00:33:54.340
his whole career in being an expert at moving money around, hiding money, creating tax havens.
00:34:00.000
Probably, I mean, we can't prove it, but I mean, I think he looks like he was involved
00:34:04.880
somehow in arranging finances during Iran-Contra, you know, potentially other, you know, intelligence
00:34:14.280
That's why it's so frustrating, is you really don't feel like we have the full picture at
00:34:19.840
You know, he talked about going into a SCIF several times.
00:34:22.660
At one point, though, he said that the SCIF, my house, a SCIF just stands for a Secure Compartmentalized
00:34:32.620
But that's not language I've ever heard used outside of either the intelligence community,
00:34:37.180
intelligence gathering, congressional hearings, hearing from whistleblowers.
00:34:43.640
And so, you know, you kind of go, well, maybe he was just, you know, joking or using slang.
00:34:47.920
But all these things kind of point to a picture of a guy that was pretty close to the intelligence
00:34:53.140
And so somebody that sort of sits at the intersection of the intelligence community, you know, finance
00:35:01.500
And I thought it was interesting that he was a big advocate of digital currency, Bitcoin,
00:35:06.280
cryptocurrencies, which are perfect for, you know, hiding money, moving money.
00:35:16.500
But back even to when he died, it wasn't nearly as big.
00:35:19.860
Ryan, what would you say is your biggest takeaway from having...
00:35:23.740
But then tell me what your biggest takeaway is, too.
00:35:25.380
Yeah, well, my biggest takeaway is that he does seem to be so involved with intelligence
00:35:33.820
And to add on to what Michael was saying, just to give one example, and this one will blow
00:35:37.140
your mind, so, you know, Stan Pottinger, Stan Pottinger has gotten, you know, has become
00:35:43.820
He's the late Stan Pottinger at this point, but he was a prominent attorney for Epstein
00:35:50.120
You know, he was representing, along with Brad Edwards, the victims who were suing Jeffrey
00:35:55.960
One thing we found in the files is that back in 2009, Pottinger had emailed Epstein and said,
00:36:07.040
I said, basically, he said, you are one of the lions or something like, you're a lion.
00:36:12.400
And people who are such lions are the ones that, you know, are attacked by the world because,
00:36:21.480
He's like a Picasso or a Da Vinci of trafficking or whatever.
00:36:25.520
And so, and he says, and, you know, it may be hard to imagine this, but we will one day
00:36:31.040
And I look forward to seeing you in New York when you're, when you're through all of this.
00:36:35.220
He then ends up becoming an attorney for the survivors.
00:36:39.200
If you go back even further in time, he and Epstein were business partners in the early
00:36:45.120
They shared, as the New York Times reported and others have reported, they shared a penthouse
00:36:52.160
Pottinger, we know for certain, was moving money for the CIA during Iran-Contra.
00:36:57.020
So, so that, like, that's just one link that we have right there.
00:37:01.240
He also was, Epstein was a protege of Douglas Lease, who was a British arms trafficker who
00:37:06.240
was involved in, who was involved in Iran-Contra.
00:37:09.960
Obviously, Robert Maxwell was like the banker for, you know, moving money around.
00:37:15.760
And during Iran-Contra, Hashemi, like, he knew, like, he was associated with a lot of
00:37:23.460
And that's the exact time that he has this Austrian passport with a fake name that would,
00:37:29.780
and a Saudi address that would let him kind of move around.
00:37:33.020
And then in the 90s, when the planes that were used by the CIA for Iran-Contra started taking
00:37:42.020
on too much heat, they get moved, half of them get sold off in a bankruptcy, the other
00:37:47.480
half get moved to Columbus, Ohio to start trafficking apparel for Les Wexner.
00:37:53.500
And our reporting shows that it was, it was Epstein himself who brought those planes to Columbus,
00:37:59.420
So, like, the links between that history and Epstein just run, you know, straight from
00:38:07.460
the 80s through the 90s and then up, you know, and then up to today.
00:38:11.140
So, it wouldn't be surprising if that's kind of his background, why he'd be using terms like
00:38:16.160
SCIF and have associations with every CIA director and so on.
00:38:21.860
Even though he never served in the military, there's nothing on his resume that would explain
00:38:27.580
But boy, oh boy, he has a lot of connections for somebody who is allegedly not connected
00:38:31.880
Yeah, and for people who don't, for people, no, and I've realized a lot of people don't
00:38:34.800
know this, Iran-Contra involved Israel as the middle, middle man.
00:38:39.700
Like, Israel would send weapons to Iran, and the U.S. would then replenish Israel's stocks,
00:38:46.920
and Israel and the CIA separately had different slush funds.
00:38:50.660
So, that, like, a lot of people, like, it's not called Iran-Israel-Contra, it's Iran-Contra,
00:38:56.060
but so a lot of people don't realize that Israel played the central role there.
00:39:00.260
And you go back and you're reading that history, and you're like, it's just comical that they're,
00:39:03.820
for many, many years, making enormous amounts of money arming Iran, because Iran was fighting
00:39:09.340
Iraq, and they considered Iraq to be a bigger threat to them than Iran.
00:39:13.160
And, you know, before this show's over, we could be bombing Iran at the behest of Israel.
00:39:22.600
Emily, you were going to say something, but I just wanted to say, let's see.
00:39:28.660
Yeah, I mean, there's a lot about, if you just search the files for, like, CIA, NSA,
00:39:33.500
you find that Epstein foied himself in 2011, and the CIA gets back to him.
00:39:39.500
He foied himself at NSA, CIA, FBI, and at least the CIA FOIA.
00:39:47.880
He's asking the CIA to produce any evidence, basically, of an affiliation with him, which
00:39:57.660
If you know you have had no affiliation, you have had no status as an asset with the CIA,
00:40:05.120
There are a lot of emails, and this is Ryan and I with Murtaza Hussain reported this out
00:40:12.200
He was recruiting, and this is another huge element that we saw amplified by the DOJ library
00:40:21.200
We see so much more about his efforts to get engaged in bioengineering, biohacking, and so
00:40:32.220
There's a calendar invite for Kathy Rumler and NSA and Jeffrey Epstein in the emails.
00:40:38.500
There is evidence of other people offering up, quote-unquote, codebreakers, Israeli hackers,
00:40:45.280
a man named Dan Dubnow, who used to be a producer at CBS.
00:40:48.020
There are emails where he is offering up Epstein, NSA, or I'm sorry, Israeli codebreakers, also
00:40:53.180
NSA codebreakers, because Epstein had this theory that people who are breaking codes for NSA
00:40:59.220
could also then reverse engineer or hack into cells and our genes and just go leaps and
00:41:08.460
bounds forward in terms of bioengineering, because he was very interested in bioengineering.
00:41:13.360
And this is one of the grand conspiracy theories about him is that he was trying to produce lots
00:41:19.820
and lots of offspring that were Jeffrey Epstein-like and that he was trying to, you know, do eugenics.
00:41:26.440
And there is, like, actually some evidence that he was significantly, on a scientific level,
00:41:31.640
pursuing those ends and with people high up in the intelligence community.
00:41:36.760
And by the way, here's exactly what Netanyahu posted.
00:41:41.660
He reposted an article that argues new emails between Ehud Barak and Jeffrey Epstein should
00:41:47.960
mean at a minimum an end to the widespread taboo of even asking questions about the billionaire
00:41:55.800
Epstein brokered security deals for Israel, had a close friendship with one of its former
00:41:59.680
prime ministers, Barak, and military officials, and apparently even secretly involved himself
00:42:06.320
If it were any other country, it would not be remotely scandalous to wonder out loud what
00:42:14.460
So, I mean, that's B.B. Netanyahu reposting that article about Epstein.
00:42:19.440
Michael, I know you took a look at this, you know, his ties with intelligence, ties with the
00:42:23.460
Justice Department, but you also have questions about his behavior with women, girls, and others.
00:42:33.560
Yes. So, what are the questions? Because, you know, I'm as open-minded as anybody to how dirty
00:42:40.720
and disgusting Jeffrey Epstein was at any point in his adult life or otherwise, but I haven't
00:42:45.960
seen anything in here supporting pedophile ring or even sex trafficking ring of underaged
00:42:55.300
Yeah, I think that's right. And I think it's important. I would like to be on the record
00:42:58.480
saying that I do think that this has become a moral panic. You know, I talked to, you know,
00:43:03.560
people in my life, they don't, they think it's something different than it is. I mean,
00:43:08.000
they think that they're preying on really young girls. And I know that you got into trouble for
00:43:12.520
earlier for making the distinction, but I think it is important for people to understand the
00:43:17.140
distinction there. And I just think a lot of the people that have, you know, come under fire or lost
00:43:21.660
their jobs. Just to be clear, because a pedophile is someone who is attracted to prepubescent
00:43:28.500
children. And the DSM-5 says under age 13, prepubescent. And then they have two other words
00:43:35.580
for if you're into adolescent girls or a little older, like teenage girls. Like it's, I can't
00:43:40.680
remember what it is. It's just like pedophile, but with a different prefix. But yeah, pedophile
00:43:45.500
does not technically legally apply unless you, your thing is prepubescent children under the age
00:43:51.580
of 13. Yeah. I mean, I think it's misleading from that perspective. I think it's also misleading.
00:43:55.600
I mean, I think that there is this, you know, there's, there's an exchange between him and
00:44:00.200
Tish, Steve Tish, where he sort of, he says, oh, I'm, you know, Tish is like, oh, I met this girl
00:44:05.380
at your party. Can we connect? And then Epstein says, I'd rather not do this over email. Let's talk
00:44:11.160
about it over phone. I think that there is a picture of Epstein, you know, grooming young
00:44:16.520
women, moving them to powerful men. But I don't think that that that's not how he makes his money.
00:44:22.220
You know, Mike Benz, you know, says that sort of girls grease deals is the way you would think
00:44:27.700
about it. You'd have a lot of young women around to make it sort of attractive for people to want
00:44:31.980
to hang out with them. But I mean, he's making his money through $25 million fees to the Rothschilds,
00:44:37.600
not, you know, by, you know, moving women around. But I will say, I do think that, look,
00:44:43.180
there's awful, like, I think all these people are awful, like, and it's really important. I
00:44:47.060
condemn it. And this behavior is terrible. But is it? I mean, we are back to where we were with
00:44:53.080
Me Too, where just any association with Epstein is enough to get you to have to, you know, step down
00:44:58.360
from your position. And so I think we saw it with, you know, Pritzker, you know, like, there's no
00:45:03.760
evidence of crimes. It's not even clear that he understood what was going on. You know, Fergie
00:45:07.780
had to step down from a charity. I just think there's, we're at a place where people are just
00:45:12.780
like, you know, the boards of these organizations are just like, we have to get rid of these people.
00:45:16.560
And I do think that that's bad. And that's, that's, that's just guilt by association. And
00:45:21.260
that's, that's unethical. And we don't, we don't agree with that.
00:45:24.180
I understand the Rumler thing, because she's in the position of being the top and most trusted
00:45:29.540
law enforcement officer at Goldman Sachs. You know, I mean, she's, she's the general counsel.
00:45:35.000
She's the one whose integrity, judgment, and honesty matters literally the most of anybody
00:45:41.580
at Goldman Sachs. And they deal with people's fortunes for a living. You cannot have somebody
00:45:45.160
there who's lying as much as she appears to have about her relationship with somebody as
00:45:49.640
controversial as Epstein and who has the piss poor judgment to be the guy's BFF after, as a lawyer,
00:45:56.000
seeing what he pleaded guilty to and seeing what was in that Miami hero. Like,
00:45:59.400
I'm sorry, but there's just, she had to go. I'm sorry. I don't feel bad for Catherine Rumler
00:46:03.920
at all. Um, but I do think like Peter Atiyah has taken a big hit as a result of these Epstein files.
00:46:11.660
And I haven't looked that one up in like a week or two since it hit, but my understanding on Peter
00:46:16.200
Atiyah, the author of Outlived, and he's a longevity guy now he's been on the show, um, is he was friends
00:46:23.180
with Epstein. He wrote him an email saying the problem with being friends with you is your, your real life
00:46:28.800
is just so unbelievable. And yet you can't talk to anybody about it. Like I, Peter Atiyah cannot
00:46:33.060
tell anyone about it, which doesn't suggest he saw Epstein with underage girls. It does suggest
00:46:38.860
he'd seen some sort of debauchery, um, potentially. And the controversy was he, he was with Epstein and
00:46:47.040
about to be with Epstein. I think, uh, as, as his son was born and in the maternity ward still with his
00:46:53.500
wife and he didn't go up to be with them. And Megan, I mean, for me, I think, I mean, my reaction
00:46:57.820
is sort of like, uh, with Epstein. Yeah. I mean, my reaction was like, are we going to get in there
00:47:02.040
and try to figure out whether or not Peter Atiyah did the right thing in his relationship with his
00:47:06.280
wife? I mean, what are we doing here? Exactly. Like that's for me, it's a crime. I'm really glad
00:47:10.740
that Barry Weiss and CBS has remained firm on this. We're not going to cancel Peter Atiyah by presuming
00:47:16.320
that we understand, you know, what the whole situation was there with his wife. That's absurd. So
00:47:21.540
I do think that's a great example. The other thing, Michael, is he, he admitted in his book
00:47:24.900
to being a douchebag for a large period of his adult, you know, adult youth, if you will,
00:47:30.240
with that term, you know, his younger adult years, he, he, his book lands in a way where you're like,
00:47:34.920
oh my God, you know, like you, you learn a lot about Peter. Did he confess everything? No. But
00:47:39.460
like, if you read his book, you knew he really had some serious issues, uh, earlier in his adult
00:47:44.880
life. It's like, I feel like this is, it's not a great story, but it really is between Peter and his
00:47:50.720
family. Um, I went on there. It doesn't, I would still put Peter on this show in a heartbeat. I
00:47:56.200
think he's done a lot to help people with their wellness. Um, but I also need to check myself on
00:48:01.700
not having a double standard for, you know, rummler who worked for Obama and Bannon who I love. And I
00:48:08.760
think he's great. You know, like I'm really trying to check myself on not judging people based on their
00:48:13.300
partisan stripes. Go ahead, Emily. Well, yeah, I mean the, the, the, the stuff here, like one of the,
00:48:19.200
the keywords, if you search the Epstein library for visa, what it looks like is that Epstein was
00:48:25.160
coordinating with modeling agencies, like Jean-Luc Brunel, obviously who died under relatively
00:48:30.580
mysterious circumstances back in 2022 in a French prison. Um, Jean-Luc Brunel, Epstein, like he was,
00:48:36.760
he was procuring visas for women and then helping them out. That's why people resigned at Columbia
00:48:41.800
University because Epstein greased his kids with like a hundred thousand donation to a hundred
00:48:46.140
thousand dollars donation to Columbia, got one of these women into the dental school. Uh, and so he's,
00:48:51.880
he's procuring women, helping with visas, going through modeling agencies, bringing them, and then
00:48:57.980
either they're his girlfriends or you can tell he's corresponding with other men. I mean, here, let me just
00:49:04.900
read from this email that I found last night, um, which is like lewd, but it is, so somebody asks him,
00:49:11.840
um, basically someone says, I asked her, we don't know who her is about girls in Moscow and Tokyo for
00:49:19.620
me. Also, does she have any good girls in LA, but I didn't mention you. And then they go on to say,
00:49:25.680
um, now I'm finding P word for you. Epstein says something wrong with that. And then the guy responds,
00:49:32.160
no one can beat your P word network. So it's a known joke with this guy, at least that Epstein had a P word
00:49:39.960
network. And, uh, that what's interesting about that in the trafficking context is that if this
00:49:45.320
is understood to be prostitution and that you are coming to the United States, Epstein is greasing
00:49:50.860
the skids to help you get this visa and help the modeling agency. And they're doing it for purely
00:49:55.520
sexual purposes that maybe it comes with other advantages, but it's really sexual that you can
00:50:00.820
see actual trafficking potentially, uh, a prostitution ring in that. Uh, and so that one, and one final
00:50:08.300
point in that is when you go back to the original stories, like the original Julie K Brown story,
00:50:12.480
the Palm beach police do have women on the record that have spoken to the media since Courtney Wilde,
00:50:16.560
who says she was 14 years old and she was basically, uh, helping him run a pyramid scheme at her school
00:50:23.080
when she was still embraces. So there's, there is before and after, and they are distinct,
00:50:28.200
but the sexual stuff is bad and potentially very illegal too. Yeah. I know. Like I was saying,
00:50:34.600
you can be trafficked even though you are of age. It's, it's happened to many women. Standby. I have
00:50:40.080
to take a quick break, but there's a lot more to get into Bill Clinton, Howard Lutnick, and more on
00:50:44.500
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We are back now with our Epstein Deep Dive, Emily Jashinsky, Ryan Grimm, and Michael Schellenberger.
00:52:24.140
So let's kick it off here on the women front. In that same New York Times podcast, they talk about
00:52:30.880
the nature of the women who ultimately wound up within his reach. Here's thought four.
00:52:38.660
As soon as he got out of jail in 2009, and possibly before, he was basically building or expanding a
00:52:45.420
virtual harem, a pipeline of young women in their late teens and early 20s, who were mostly from
00:52:51.280
Eastern Europe and Russia. He had scouts roving around these places to find him women. And every
00:52:56.660
time he found the women, he would ask them to find him more women. And so you might ask, okay,
00:53:01.900
so why do these women comply? And the answer is that he had money and influence, and they usually
00:53:06.600
had none. He bought them plane tickets. He provided them apartments. He offered to pay for college or
00:53:13.020
dental school. He sent them to doctors or plastic surgeons. And most of all, he dangled a sense of
00:53:18.060
opportunity and security. He had a place for them to stay. He had people for them to meet. He would
00:53:23.820
make introductions to modeling agencies or producers or rich men. And we can see in these emails these
00:53:29.860
varying levels of comfort on the part of the women. Some of them seem to take the arrangement at face
00:53:35.680
value. They're trading sex for money or security or opportunity.
00:53:39.780
I mean, there's not necessarily anything illegal about that, just for the record. Like,
00:53:45.460
it goes back to the discussion at the top of the first hour. Gold digger or sex trafficking? You do
00:53:51.000
have to figure out whether there was force involved. Force, coercion, or fraud basically takes it from
00:53:58.840
voluntary gold digging. You know, I will sleep with you and be your Russian lover as long as you put me up
00:54:04.300
in a hotel and introduce me to a bunch of modeling agencies and rich men. That's fine. I'm sorry,
00:54:10.320
it's a tale as old as time, frankly. But if she stops wanting to do that and you start threatening
00:54:18.220
her, like, I've got videotape of you or I'm going to tell everybody what you did or you better continue
00:54:22.380
in this thing or else it can change into something that was legal and no longer is. And certainly if from
00:54:29.000
the get-go, the woman felt like she had no choice, you can have problems. So I just want to be clear
00:54:35.500
on the law. It's not a slam dunk just because there was sort of a financial understanding at hand.
00:54:42.520
I'd like, that's been happening since the dawn of time. I've said that before. Emily, can we talk
00:54:46.980
about some of the things you tweeted out last night? Because there is a lot of discussion of the
00:54:53.200
P word. I think the audience knows what the P word is, but it's another word for cat or kitty.
00:55:00.860
And it's all over the Epstein emails. Yeah. So for example, just to the point you were just making,
00:55:08.720
Megan, I found this 2015 email from some woman who at one point says, I appreciate things good
00:55:14.860
happened. Thank you. English clearly not her first language. Unfortunately, my impression is that
00:55:19.640
becoming a mistress was the only one job proposition you were really serious about. I refused. So it
00:55:25.340
meant all is over. She goes on to talk about how meeting Bill Gates or Woody Allen was great,
00:55:30.180
but nobody will hire me just because I have nice pictures with them. There's also, and these are
00:55:34.480
some of the most disturbing emails that I found, ample, ample evidence of Epstein arranging for people
00:55:42.760
to get what he says are P word tests or go to the P word doctor. And just like really disgusting
00:55:49.100
terms. So yeah, like he tells people to go get a P word swab. He is with his assistant arranging
00:55:56.220
gyno appointments for women to get antibiotics. There's one woman who tells him, be careful who
00:56:02.260
you sleep with. Those girls are infected because she seemingly has an infection. And so that gets to
00:56:08.460
some of these legal questions about whether this was understood by the women to be prostitution,
00:56:15.020
meaning money was exchanged for sex, or if it was a relationship, a transactional relationship,
00:56:20.760
but a relationship that didn't involve transactions of like, like legal prostitution. And Megan, you would
00:56:27.560
know way more about that than I would. But like you said, this stuff is, I mean, the library is riddled
00:56:32.720
with examples of this stuff. I mean, I'll give you one example. We did a couple of in-depth shows on
00:56:39.320
sex trafficking when I was at NBC. And, um, the, the one woman's story that always stayed with me was
00:56:44.320
she thought she was going out on a date with, she was of age. She thought she was going out on a date
00:56:51.620
with, um, her boyfriend. They, uh, she had a daughter of her own and that daughter was back at
00:56:59.480
his apartment. And, uh, the two of them went out and instead of driving her to dinner, he drove her to
00:57:04.540
a hotel and said, go inside and have sex with the guy in there and get the money. And she was shocked
00:57:10.740
and was like, what, what do you mean? Absolutely not. I thought we're going on a date. And he hit her
00:57:16.240
and said, go inside or else. And she did it. And she explained that she was afraid of him, but she was
00:57:24.520
really afraid for her daughter who was not in her possession. She thought she'd been going out on a date
00:57:29.200
that night. And she had the, the, the daughter was with somebody that he controlled and, um, that's
00:57:35.620
how it started. And then they've got you like, once you do it once, then they're like, I'll tell
00:57:40.860
everybody you're a prostitute and you had sex for money, which you did, you know? And then they start
00:57:45.780
advertising you on, used to be back page. Now it's other, uh, things would be shut that down. But
00:57:50.240
in any event, that's sex trafficking. She did not voluntarily go in there and have sex with a,
00:57:55.940
with a John because she wanted to be a hooker. She did it because of force, fraud, and coercion.
00:58:01.680
Now this is something else, you know, like I say, like gold digging women, Anna Nicole Smith,
00:58:06.840
do we really think she had it? She had the hots for that 95 year old man. Of course she didn't.
00:58:12.320
She wanted his money. She wanted to be taken care of. Is it prostitution? Not exactly.
00:58:16.220
It's more like gold digging. It's definitely not sex trafficking. There was no force fraud or coercion.
00:58:21.300
And so you got to ask yourself in all these, you know, situations and it's individual. You have to go
00:58:25.780
individual. They would have had to, had there been a legal trial. How about this one? How about this
00:58:30.440
one? How about this one? There's pretty likely though, some fraud, like in the, in the forced
00:58:34.760
fraud and conviction there, the chance that, that, uh, the recruiters that Epstein is using in Eastern
00:58:43.400
Europe are going to these young women, um, or late, you know, late teens and being direct and honest
00:58:51.480
about what they're signing up for is pretty, pretty low. I think we can probably all agree
00:58:57.420
with that. That's where the modeling, right. The visa and the modeling are where the fraud
00:59:03.360
lies. Uh, they're getting, they're getting a visa to do modeling. The, the modeling company
00:59:09.340
now controls that visa. Uh, they're not actually doing modeling. Like, let's not like, maybe they
00:59:16.520
get introduced to a couple of agents or something here in that one woman's right. Email that Emily
00:59:21.160
just said, like, I'm not going to get modeling jobs based on my pictures, my, my candids with
00:59:25.080
Woody Allen at your home. Right. Yes. Right. Yeah. It's wonderful to meet Bill Gates on the island,
00:59:29.840
but yeah, nobody's going to hire me over that. Uh, apparently it wasn't really that wonderful to
00:59:34.400
meet. No, of course it wasn't. I think she was being, I think she was being a little bit generous
00:59:37.640
and facetious at the same time. Well, speaking of infections, I mean, that's one of the big,
00:59:41.200
uh, takeaways or pieces of evidence again, from this library that we now have access to,
00:59:45.960
which is Epstein drafted an email to himself where this brings blackmail into it potentially
00:59:51.300
too. He seems to be threatening to blow the whistle on Bill Gates and is saying he helped
00:59:57.420
Bill Gates procure antibiotics because he slept with a prostitute, a Russian prostitute and needed
01:00:04.220
to slip something to his then wife, Melinda, uh, in order to be surreptitious about it. And so that
01:00:09.740
looks like Epstein was planning potentially, again, this was in his drafts, but he was planning
01:00:14.500
potentially to blow the whistle for leverage over Bill Gates.
01:00:19.460
Well, Michael, correct me if I'm wrong. Cause I think you've written on this too, this,
01:00:23.020
the, the Bill Gates potential blackmail thing. So this email that Jeffrey Epstein sent to himself
01:00:28.960
or was in his drafts, I don't know which must've, must've been sent to himself. And it's in like the
01:00:34.460
voice of a Bill Gates worker, uh, employee who seems to be saying it would be terrible if this
01:00:43.860
stuff I did for you got revealed, sir. It's going to be really bad if the world finds out I got you
01:00:49.600
STD antibiotics to slip into Melinda's food because you cheated on her with a hooker or with a
01:00:56.500
sex trafficking person who had diseases in the hoochie. And, and, and your point I think has been
01:01:04.140
like that that's potential blackmail and didn't then Epstein and Gates invest in that guy's company,
01:01:14.040
the guy, the employee in whose voice Epstein was allegedly writing this email.
01:01:20.440
Yeah. I mean, look, it's another, I will stress it's another case. Gates has denied all of this.
01:01:25.880
And so I think it's just important to say, we don't have evidence that anything in that email
01:01:30.180
is true. It does appear that Epstein wrote that to be in the voice of Gates's one of Gates's main
01:01:37.140
advisors, somebody named Boris, Boris and Epstein had been exchanging emails because Boris was mad that
01:01:43.960
Gates wasn't going to spring for this really expensive apartment penthouse for him in New York.
01:01:49.200
And he was getting Epstein's advice on how to basically get what he wanted at just a purely
01:01:54.760
materialistic level from Gates. So pretty tawdry stuff. But I, yeah, I mean, it did,
01:02:00.680
I think it was the first clearest piece of evidence that, you know, blackmail was that there was some,
01:02:05.660
you know, there's some evidence that, that there was some thinking around blackmail. You know,
01:02:10.000
we also know now that there were hidden cameras. They talked, you know, he talked and there's discussion
01:02:14.280
the email about him implanting hidden cameras. I was impressed by how aggressive Epstein was in
01:02:22.040
trying to get with Gates. He also was advising Gates on how to, you know, raise money and have
01:02:26.540
a donor advised fund and sort of trying to sort of coach Gates. But, you know, it's, that's,
01:02:32.320
it's another tough one. I mean, I have a lot of criticism of Bill Gates for some of his projects,
01:02:36.760
but I do think he's been, you know, at this point, he's been me too,
01:02:40.480
in a way that I thought we sort of learned that we weren't going to do that anymore.
01:02:44.720
You know, I will say too, I'm just on the issue of the, the grooming and it is grooming in the
01:02:51.000
sense that Epstein is grooming these young women. They then have sex with him and it appears that then
01:02:55.780
he turns them over to other men, which is how, which is how pimps groom, you know, young women
01:03:01.600
for prostitution. There's also evidence in those files that there was a lot of drugs being used
01:03:06.560
and there were large quantities. At one point there was a list of, of drugs that was being
01:03:11.160
circulated. Again, I haven't, we can't verify whether that was really evidence of widespread
01:03:15.680
drug use, but it seems to me that there was plenty of evidence over many years to go after these guys
01:03:22.760
and to, you know, to prosecute these crimes and investigate them more. And it didn't happen. I mean,
01:03:28.080
obviously there was the, the initial conviction. And then of course they were beginning the second
01:03:31.660
conviction or the second investigation, but it just seems like people look the other way knowing
01:03:37.120
full well what was going on. And I think we need to understand why that would be.
01:03:41.320
And why did they investigate whether Bill Gates, that's one of the big questions we all have.
01:03:45.720
Did they investigate whether Bill Gates drugged his wife as soon as they saw that email?
01:03:52.080
Well, that, so that's why the Bill Gates thing to me is it's at a higher level than just
01:03:56.800
unsupported me to, uh, accusations because Melinda Gates has weighed in. Melinda Gates gave an
01:04:03.180
interview. Bill's now ex-wife. Um, this happened, it was on NPR just after the latest round,
01:04:10.800
including that allegation hit, she was on cam and was asked about the latest revelations. And here
01:04:16.840
she is inside 18. The emails in the files suggest that Bill Gates had additional affairs and that he
01:04:23.000
tried to get medication to treat a sexually transmitted infection and that he was going to
01:04:28.340
give you the medicine without you knowing his representative has said, all of this is false.
01:04:34.740
It is not on you to have to respond to the details of that alleged behavior, but I, I wonder what your
01:04:42.960
dominant emotion is when you read these news articles with these details. Sad, just unbelievable sadness.
01:04:53.000
Unbelievable sadness. Right. And again, I'm able to take my own sadness and look at those young
01:05:00.080
girls and say, my God, how did they, how did that happen to those girls? Right. And so for me,
01:05:08.140
it's just sadness, sadness for, you know, I, I've left, I had to, I left my marriage. I had to leave
01:05:14.120
my marriage. I wanted to leave my marriage. And so it's just sad. That's the truth. Right. And,
01:05:18.980
and it's kind of like, ah, at least for me, I've been, it'll move on in life. And I hope there's
01:05:24.740
some justice for those now women, right? We see them standing up in front of microphones in DC.
01:05:31.600
First of all, it's a very annoying verbal tick when people continue to say right after every point
01:05:36.420
they make. If you are somebody out there who does that work on it, go ahead, Michael.
01:05:40.260
Yeah. I mean, I look, I think that's a terrible exchange there. I mean, she,
01:05:44.820
she sort of says, the reporter says, you know, the Gates has denied this, but she's still sort
01:05:50.100
of describing the email as though it's somehow verified. It's not. And then she says, just tell
01:05:54.420
us your emotion. I think the right question was, did that happen? Did you have any evidence?
01:05:59.560
Yeah. Do you believe this happened to you? Did you confront him?
01:06:02.460
That's not, I just think that's, that's actually taking you down that Me Too road, which is like,
01:06:06.480
hey, we don't really care about the facts of the case. You're right. Just tell us how you feel
01:06:09.900
emotionally. It's the P word. It's the P word way around asking the direct hard question, which is,
01:06:15.660
do you believe this happened to you? Did you call up Bill Gates and ask him, ask him whether he did
01:06:20.880
this right? Well, and here's another question. Boris Nikolic, who is the man whose voice the email
01:06:25.320
was written in, this is like Bill Gates' second in command. He's exchanging all kinds of emails with
01:06:30.420
Epstein, tongue in cheek about women and the like. But he is also one of the people who Epstein was
01:06:35.580
using to procure NSA sources to help him code break the human genome and to be involved in those types
01:06:43.720
of projects. So did the government investigate whether the NSA was improperly involved in that
01:06:51.300
type of scientific pursuit or was it state sanctioned? I mean, these are given how much of
01:06:56.780
the Gates Foundation and the Gates personal, the Gates personal office was state sanctioned. That's a
01:07:02.720
huge, huge question. We have no evidence that that's being investigated or was investigated.
01:07:06.720
And the government's not saying, no, no, no, this was state sanctioned. This is something that we do
01:07:10.460
on the side. Anything like that. But it's a huge open question. And just to correct, I'm not sure if
01:07:16.760
there was an investment into this guy's company, but this is what I meant to reference per the Wall
01:07:22.400
Street Journal. Epstein had threatened to expose Bill Gates' alleged affair with Russian bridge player
01:07:28.740
Mila Antonova in 2017, purportedly because Bill Gates would not join a charitable fund.
01:07:35.520
The financier began with JPMorgan Chase. In any event, there does appear to be threatening behavior
01:07:41.840
going on by Epstein toward Gates and possibly others, Ryan, in order to get them to do what he
01:07:48.820
wanted. And in that way, these women were useful to Jeffrey Epstein.
01:07:52.180
Right. And so we need to understand a couple of things. One is the context of his relationships with
01:07:56.420
these intelligence agencies. And the other is that he and Ehud Barak were pioneers in a way of
01:08:03.080
in the cyber surveillance industry. Like he and Barak opened doors for Israeli companies around the
01:08:09.740
world to grow what has become a truly like global panopticon of surveillance around the world. A lot
01:08:18.220
of these Israeli companies have since been bought up by multinational companies. And so now they're
01:08:22.620
embedded in all of the big tech infrastructure. The point is, Jeffrey Epstein knows a lot about
01:08:31.280
operational security when it comes to communications. He also knew that he was either, you know, getting
01:08:36.480
sued at any point or could be getting sued at any point over all manner. Look, he's got the victims
01:08:42.620
coming after him, you know, since, you know, since his conviction. And he's also got very shady,
01:08:48.560
gray area business dealings that he's doing constantly. And so he knows that his emails are,
01:08:54.480
you know, routinely subject to subpoena, let alone observable by all the different foreign
01:09:02.680
intelligence agencies that have an interest in him. So what you get in his email is only what he is kind
01:09:10.720
of roughly okay with. Wants you to see. People seeing. Yeah. So he wanted this to come out about
01:09:15.800
Bill Gates. Well, and you also see oftentimes, hey, this is not for email, as Emily pointed out
01:09:21.240
earlier. Like, you'll find that a decent amount of times in the calls, in the emails. We need to
01:09:27.500
talk about this in person, he'll say. And so if he's ever going to do any blackmailing, like, it would
01:09:34.920
be very difficult for you to believe that you would find it in these, you know, JEEvacation at gmail.com
01:09:41.160
or anywhere else. Well, what was he doing with Ehud Barak? I mean, was he, do you believe he was
01:09:48.220
an Israeli intelligence asset or an American intelligence asset or somebody's intelligent
01:09:54.640
asset? He was clearly an asset, a very, very valuable asset to Ehud Barak. And Ehud Barak
01:10:01.580
was working directly with the Israeli intelligence community in growing the Israeli cyber weapons
01:10:08.440
industry around the world. And so we, and. Let me just ask you, let me just interrupt you and ask
01:10:13.480
you, because I had a debate about this with Ben Shapiro over the summer at the Charlie Kirk event.
01:10:18.460
I, Charlie asked me, do you think he was, and he was Intel, Jeffrey Epstein. And I said, it certainly
01:10:23.960
looks that way. And he said, for whom? And I said, you'd have to guess Israel as one of the
01:10:28.940
possibilities given his relationship with Ehud Barak. Then Ben Shapiro came on my show and then I was
01:10:33.720
called an anti-Semite. And so was Charlie, just, just for literally just that. And then Ben Shapiro
01:10:38.580
came on my show and said, he wasn't, he wasn't. Ehud Barak has denied it. And I remember I was like,
01:10:46.340
oh, well, okay. I mean, that doesn't really give us a final answer. And then that's why the BB
01:10:52.100
Netanyahu piece putting out there, not that he was an intelligence asset for Israel, but saying he
01:10:57.380
clearly was working with Ehud Barak on intelligence matters, you know, and, and also saying it's fine to ask
01:11:03.420
the question, which doesn't make you an anti-Semite, which I thought was very interesting
01:11:07.180
for obvious reasons. But what you're saying now is that there's no question he was working on Intel
01:11:11.620
matters with Ehud Barak. That, that is, that is utterly indisputable. And people can go to
01:11:16.080
DropSite and look at our section called Epstein in Israel and go read a bunch of the different
01:11:20.740
stories. Like for instance, he, which I have. Yeah. So you, you've, you've seen it. So he, you know,
01:11:26.120
he sold cyber weapons infrastructure with Ehud Barak to Mongolia and then helped cut a,
01:11:31.960
a state deal between Israel and Mongolia. So often these, often these cyber weapons deals
01:11:38.080
then are followed by, you know, something dangled by the, by the state of Israel itself. The same
01:11:44.920
thing happened in, in Ivory Coast just on Tuesday, we put a story out.
01:11:50.600
So, so basically Ehud Barak would work with his Israeli intelligence community and,
01:11:56.420
and a private company, oftentimes say Paragon, which is one where he's, you know, top official
01:12:04.180
at, which is one of the biggest kind of cyber, you know, surveillance companies in the world.
01:12:09.880
It would sort of be like Palantir or Lockheed Martin. Ryan was just explaining this to me this
01:12:15.820
So then he would go to Mongolia and say, like, look, so you're having some, or Ivory Coast,
01:12:20.120
like, so you're having a lot of trouble here. Like I see protests in the streets. You got a lot of
01:12:24.100
dissent. Like we have a level of surveillance technology that is far and above, you know,
01:12:30.580
what, what our competitors can offer. And their, their selling point is, is always, it's tested
01:12:36.700
on Palestinians. Like you've seen our system of occupation in the West Bank and in Gaza.
01:12:45.160
Is that not quite impressive the way that we were able to lock that down? We have developed
01:12:49.180
extraordinary technology as, as a result of that. And so then that you meet with the, the
01:12:55.040
Mongolian president. They actually met in literally in Davos and then also traveled to Mongolia. And
01:13:01.300
then with, within months of, of that, then Israel strikes up a, a security partnership with the state
01:13:09.540
of Mongolia. So it's not just a, you know, intelligence community to intelligence company
01:13:15.540
to Mongolia relationship. It's then state to state, Israel to Mongolia. And, and so they've,
01:13:29.220
Ryan, you should mention what you, you just scooped, this big story about the apartment.
01:13:32.800
This is, this is a very interesting one that we just, um, just published over at DropSite. So
01:13:38.540
in, at least in 2016 and 2017, and, but probably much beyond that, the, the Israeli permanent mission
01:13:46.940
at the UN was responsible for security at Jeffrey Epstein's apartment. That's in, that's according,
01:13:54.180
yes. So that's according to emails that we found, uh, in, in the files. So.
01:13:59.460
I, I have been reliably told that you are an anti-Semite if you look at all into Jeffrey Epstein's
01:14:05.540
connections to Ehud Barak or Israel, Ryan. So you just tread carefully.
01:14:09.240
So the, the, so what, what's probably going on here. So this is related to Ehud Barak staying
01:14:14.600
for such long extended periods of time in his apartment, which undercuts Ehud Barak's previous
01:14:21.420
argument that I barely know the guy, I have no relationship to him. He was staying so much in
01:14:25.900
the apartment that the Israelis literally took over security for the apartment. So the maids and any,
01:14:32.480
and any guests that, that went in and out of the apartment had to go through background checks and
01:14:38.180
had to be confirmed and, and coordinated with the Israeli consulate at the, at the UN. And at one
01:14:45.000
All the time or just when Ehud Barak was there?
01:14:46.980
It seems like, it seems like all the time because there's a, uh, the, the handler is this guy named
01:14:52.340
Rafi who's in the emails. Um, he turns over and, and you see Barak's wife. He's like, all of a sudden
01:14:57.240
she's getting texted by another Israeli official. And he's like, oh yeah, I have, I have the file
01:15:01.360
now. Let, you know, let me know who, you know, who's going in and who's going out. We're going to,
01:15:05.540
you know, we're, you know, and Epstein approves like drilling of holes to put in the security
01:15:10.620
equipment. Uh, it can be controlled, uh, remotely. Uh, so that's at least 2016, 2017. Uh, and so that's
01:15:18.680
a level of coordination and connection between the Israeli government and Barak and Epstein that,
01:15:25.340
you know, undercuts a lot of what has been said in the past. Netanyahu also said, I think it was
01:15:30.120
even this week. He said, you know, his friendship with, and his relationship with Barak shows that
01:15:35.300
actually he had nothing to do with Israel because Ehud Barak is, you know, pals around, uh, with far
01:15:41.780
left anti-Israel, anti-Zionist, you know, radicals. It's like, well, how many, you know, anti-Zionist
01:15:50.160
radicals is the U.S. is the Israeli government kind of providing security for when they're
01:15:55.480
staying at Epstein's apartment. So it kind of undercuts that. Yeah. Yeah. As well. And he
01:15:59.640
served as, you know, Netanyahu's minister of defense in 2013 as well. They were political
01:16:04.160
rivals. But now they don't like each other, but now those two don't like each other at all. But
01:16:08.000
which is why, maybe you got all sorts of heat after he tweeted out that article saying
01:16:11.720
that, uh, Epstein clearly was working for Ehud Barak and that it's totally fine to ask whether he was
01:16:17.120
Israeli intelligence. And now he's kind of like being like, well, he wasn't working for the
01:16:21.200
Israelis because he was working for Ehud Barak. It was like, okay, whatever. These two don't like
01:16:25.480
each other. But the bottom line is you can ask whatever the fuck you want. I'm sorry. I'm sick
01:16:29.600
of people trying to word police everybody. It's like, you can ask these questions. These are fine
01:16:34.820
questions for any reporter to ask when trying to figure out who and what Jeffrey Epstein was.
01:16:39.440
And eventually we'll know the truth. We're starting to know the truth right now. Um, let's keep
01:16:44.860
going cause there's some other people in there I want to get to. And that brings me to, uh, Bill
01:16:49.160
Clinton, who looks like on the, uh, on the Epstein plane 17 times. Um, that's a lot or six, 16 times
01:16:59.920
according to a CNN analyst analysis. Uh, he denies ever having visited Epstein's Island and says that
01:17:08.300
he cut ties with Epstein before he was charged, uh, in 2006, he, he pleaded guilty in 2008, um,
01:17:17.700
and didn't know about his crimes. That's what Clinton says. Now he's going to be deposed by the
01:17:21.680
house oversight committee at the end of this month. So that'll be interesting, but there's a lot in here
01:17:26.000
about Bill Clinton in these files, like the picture of him. This came out in the previous dump,
01:17:31.520
which was a couple of weeks prior to this one in the hot tub with some girl with her face blacked out.
01:17:36.680
I mean, like, I don't know who that girl was or anything. I'm just saying like Bill Clinton seemed
01:17:40.700
to be really tight with Jeffrey Epstein. Now he wants just like Bill Gates to act like he barely
01:17:45.360
knew him. What do we glean about Bill Clinton from these emails and documents? Anyone? Yeah,
01:17:52.620
I'll jump in Megan. I mean, I think, um, it's important to keep in mind also that Epstein appears,
01:17:57.020
I believe 17 times on the white house logs, uh, when Clinton is president, uh, in 1992,
01:18:03.500
the Buzzfeed reported on this actually that in 1992, the state department seized a five-story
01:18:09.520
mansion overlooking central park from the Iranian government and then rented it to Jeffrey Epstein
01:18:16.040
until 1997. Apparently then the state department went to court against Epstein, uh, for this. Um,
01:18:23.640
but it, I mean, so, I mean, I think the other thing I was gonna say about Clinton, the other thing I'm so
01:18:27.260
struck is how comfortable everybody was having their photograph taken. You have to have,
01:18:31.440
if you're out there cavorting with, you know, young women in the way that they were,
01:18:35.320
you have to be very trusting in Epstein. And that's one of the things I'm so struck by
01:18:40.280
is Epstein was just such a master manipulator. He was constantly in service of everybody. He
01:18:45.880
raised money for Larry Summers, his wife. He was always sort of two steps ahead knowing how do I
01:18:50.840
get Larry Summers to be able to spend more time here? I have to, you know, make his wife feel good
01:18:54.880
about me. Um, Epstein was just a master of it. And also advised Larry on his affair partner.
01:18:59.600
Right. At the same time. Yeah. It was also such a dear friend. What about wingmaning Michael?
01:19:02.820
Yeah, wingmaning him. And so, I mean, and then I think also pointing out just another Iran-Contra
01:19:07.500
connection is that MENA, uh, Arkansas had an airport that was used, uh, for, uh, as part of the CIA's
01:19:15.060
trafficking of cocaine, uh, to raise money for the Contras. And that was going on while, uh, Bill Clinton was
01:19:20.660
governor of Arkansas. So, I mean, you just get a picture here of somebody that, that people were
01:19:25.080
very comfortable with Epstein. They felt protected there. They felt like there wasn't really any risk
01:19:29.420
for them. Um, you know, we haven't talked about it, but, you know, one of the justified cancellations
01:19:34.720
appears to be the, the trouble that, uh, Lord Mandelson and Britain got into for sharing what appeared to be
01:19:40.740
secret financial information. So you see, I think the picture I get from it. Lord Mandelson was the UK
01:19:46.820
ambassador to the United States. Yes. And what exactly was he doing, Michael? Well, at one point
01:19:52.460
he shared information with Epstein in advance of an announcement that was going to be made about
01:19:56.520
the bailout of Greece. Uh, I believe that was 2010 and, uh, gave that, I mean, if you gave forewarning
01:20:03.920
of the bailout of Greece, the stock market, you know, would go up after they announced that because
01:20:07.800
everyone was concerned about the, uh, this was still during the great financial crisis from, you know,
01:20:13.100
2007 to, you know, an ongoing. And so the Greece deals, I think after that, the stock market did
01:20:18.640
boom. And so if you had inside information there, I mean, the picture I have is that Epstein had was,
01:20:25.340
was probably not like a formal asset. I don't think he, I mean, I would be, I don't get the sense that
01:20:31.460
he actually worked for the government. He struck me as just somebody that had a lot of people, a lot
01:20:36.700
of friends in very high places, had a lot of protectors in a lot of different places. I mean, I mean,
01:20:41.400
Kathy Rumler, I mean, she's just one of the most powerful attorneys in the United States, like
01:20:45.740
already by, uh, you know, 2008 to go get that job under Obama in the white house as white house
01:20:52.360
counsel, um, for her to then go work for Epstein. I mean, Epstein just had incredibly powerful,
01:20:56.960
uh, you know, people all over the place, department of justice, uh, you know, likely, you know,
01:21:02.480
obviously the Israeli government, um, you know, likely other intelligence agencies.
01:21:06.000
A lot of time with Ehud Barak though. A lot, a lot of time. Yeah, though, interestingly enough,
01:21:09.460
there was a moment there where he's, he's giving job advice to Ehud Barak and it just struck,
01:21:14.560
it just seemed much more like the kind of banal corruption that we're all sort of used to in
01:21:20.380
terms of advising Ehud Barak on how to make money after he didn't come, I mean, Epstein didn't come
01:21:26.120
across as like Ehud Barak's, you know, intelligence contact. He just came across as what he was,
01:21:32.820
which was somebody that was an extremely skillful, uh, uh, operator that was really excellent at
01:21:40.660
hiding money, moving money, um, at people skills. And was, it was basically, I would suspect if I
01:21:46.620
had to guess that he was, you know, used by in, you know, having deals with, uh, both the Israeli
01:21:52.100
government and the U S government. Yeah. And let me add one thing for three decades or so. Like,
01:21:55.980
let me add one thing that was saying, cause I think, you know, he's onto something there,
01:21:59.200
but there's also this like total absence of any membrane between some high levels of
01:22:05.380
intelligence companies and, and the kind of U S and Israeli intelligence community. And in that
01:22:11.060
conversation that he's referring to, uh, they kick around the idea of, of, uh, Ehud Barak working
01:22:18.180
with Leon Panetta, another former minister of defense and, and CIA director and setting up this
01:22:24.340
shop. That would be the two of them as the heads and the, uh, the lieutenants of each would be their
01:22:29.680
longtime protégés. It would be Yoni Korin. So it is an Israeli intelligence asset and a deputy,
01:22:35.200
um, to Barak who also stayed in that same apartment. Um, and it would be Jeremy Bash
01:22:41.120
on the side of Panetta, Jeremy Bash, the ex-husband of Dana Bash actually, but a former chief of staff
01:22:48.580
over at the CIA. So like one of the kind of like most plugged in people in the intelligence
01:22:53.800
community. And as the, like the saying is, there's no such thing as a former intelligence
01:22:59.760
official. Like you're, you're, you're always part, you know, you're always somewhat in this,
01:23:05.760
in this environment. You can maintain your security clearances, for instance. And so
01:23:10.440
not anymore. Thanks. Well, there you go. Um, so the, so yes, there, but so he says,
01:23:17.640
if that's your, if that's your best contact, American Intel, like that's like, and you like
01:23:22.120
him the most and you feel comfortable with him now, that could be an interesting company for you guys
01:23:25.920
to set up. And as a company, it would then be exploiting its relationships inside all of the
01:23:32.080
different American intelligence companies, all of the different, uh, Israeli intelligence
01:23:36.660
organizations and then doing kind of freelance corporate slash state craft around the world.
01:23:43.780
So it's this, it's this weird world where it's not, it doesn't easily fit into, oh, this is bond,
01:23:48.860
you know, this is 007 and he's, he, this is his agent number and, you know, he gets paid every two
01:23:53.800
weeks and works for this particular agency. Uh, of course there's a way of being an asset without
01:24:00.080
being officially declared. Especially if you're a money man. Um, I want to, I want to talk about
01:24:05.380
Howard Lutnick, Howard Lutnick. The release of the Epstein files is not going well for our
01:24:13.180
commerce secretary at all. Okay. At all. Let's just start with what he told Miranda Devine on
01:24:20.060
her podcast a couple of months ago, prior to the release of these documents. But when it was pretty
01:24:26.620
clear more on Epstein was going to come out, here is what he told Miranda because he was living just
01:24:31.660
when you hear this thought, he was living right next to Jeffrey Epstein. They shared a wall and
01:24:37.020
he's talking about how he got an invitation from Epstein's maid to come over and have coffee with
01:24:41.880
Epstein. So Lutnick and his wife went over to have coffee with, with Epstein, who then is giving them
01:24:47.380
a tour of his mansion, which shares a wall with Lutnick and they walk into the dining room here.
01:24:53.840
Yeah. And he opens the doors and there's a massage table in the middle of the room and candles all
01:25:01.900
around and stuff. So I ask very insightful, cutting questions. I say to him, massage table in the
01:25:10.200
middle of your house? How often do you have a massage? And he says, every day. And then he like
01:25:17.780
gets like weirdly close to me. And he says, and the right kind of massage. Now my wife is standing
01:25:27.040
here. So she looks at me and I look at her and we say, I'm sorry, we have to go. And we left. And in the
01:25:41.560
six or eight steps it takes to get from his house to my house, my wife and I decided that I will never
01:25:49.160
be in the room with that disgusting person ever again. So I was never in the room with him
01:25:56.480
socially, for business, or even philanthropy. If that guy was there, I wasn't going because he's gross.
01:26:06.220
Except none of that was true. None of the things about never seeing him again or walking. I don't
01:26:15.480
know what he may or may have or not have said when he walked out of Epstein's house, but he definitely
01:26:20.140
saw Jeffrey Epstein again multiple times, engaged in business dealings with him and even went to his
01:26:26.760
private island, a little St. James in the Caribbean, because he testified to it under oath a week ago
01:26:35.080
on February 10th at a Senate hearing when he had to answer some tough questions about his
01:26:40.740
relationship. Here's that soundbite six. I did have lunch with him as I was on a boat
01:26:47.340
going across on a family vacation. My wife was with me as were my four children and nannies. I had
01:26:55.520
another couple with, they were there as well with their children and we had lunch on the island.
01:27:03.380
That is true for an hour. And we left with all of my children, with my nannies and my wife,
01:27:10.080
all together. We were on family vacation. We were not apart.
01:27:15.840
Okay. You brought other people, including for some reason, your children to Epstein Island,
01:27:20.360
but you went and apparently had them on your yacht. And in addition to that, CBS News reporting that
01:27:25.840
they were in business together. They each signed on behalf of their own limited liability companies
01:27:30.660
on December 28th, 2012. That's after he pleaded guilty to the solicitation of sex with a minor
01:27:37.360
prostitute. Again, that's not a thing to acquire stakes in a now shuttered advertising technology
01:27:42.680
company called Adfin. They also arranged calls. They plan to have drinks in 2011.
01:27:48.240
And then after that, then December of 2012 was when they went to the island and had follow-up
01:27:54.620
texts. Nice seeing you via the assistance. So for some reason he thought, I guess this wasn't going to
01:28:00.480
come out. And again, that's just, this is just fucking stupid because it was a self-aggrandizing tale,
01:28:09.020
he told Miranda Divine, who I'm sure is pissed that he lied to her face, thinking this wasn't going to
01:28:15.520
come out. And that he could make himself look super virtuous by smelling the disgusting Jeffrey
01:28:20.000
Epstein on, in one whiff, Emily, while walking into his dining room back in, it was like 2005 or
01:28:26.940
2004 or someplace early in the, in the aughts. And he knew full well, he had gone to little St.
01:28:32.280
James Island well after that. And after Epstein's conviction, even for a globe-trotting billionaire,
01:28:37.620
like Howard Blutnik going to that Island, that particular Island is not something that you forget,
01:28:43.300
let alone all of the other associations, the yacht, the meetings, the business transactions
01:28:47.800
that Blutnik, we now know had with Epstein. A lot of that is in, again, this new tranche that was
01:28:53.080
available in the Justice Department's library just in the last month or so. So him going out and going
01:28:58.320
so hard in the paint in that conversation with Miranda Divine, this is going to sound very quaint,
01:29:02.760
but it just reeks of low moral character in a very obvious way, especially to mislead the public,
01:29:10.480
to exploit the public's upset over a very serious matter of corruption, of sexual exploitation,
01:29:17.600
to exploit the public's concern over that in such a dramatic fashion, and then to be called within
01:29:23.000
a couple of weeks. I mean, Hillary Clinton is sort of doing the same thing right now. She just gave an
01:29:27.760
interview to BBC about how, oh, I met Ghislaine Maxwell a few times, and thousands of people came
01:29:33.560
to the Clinton Global Initiative stuff. Well, even CNN.
01:29:35.920
Wait, we have a little of that. Let me play it. It's not 15. Let's watch.
01:29:40.120
Just to be clear, do you regret the links that there have been?
01:29:43.200
You know, we have no links. We have a very clear record that we've been willing to talk about,
01:29:50.880
which my husband has said. He took some rides on the airplane for his charitable work.
01:30:02.660
I did on a few occasions, and thousands of people go to the Clinton Global Initiative. So
01:30:08.440
it, to me, is not something that is really at the heart of what this matter is about.
01:30:17.760
They are accused and in both cases were convicted of horrific crimes against girls and women.
01:30:26.020
That should be the focus. And we are more than happy to say what we know,
01:30:31.720
which is very limited and totally unrelated to their behavior or their crimes. And we want to do
01:30:39.260
it in public. Just for the record, she and her husband had an entire war room set up to destroy
01:30:46.000
the young women who were accusing her husband of disgusting sex acts with underage girls in at
01:30:51.660
least some cases, but mostly overage. But she had no problem trying to destroy any woman who
01:30:56.380
came forward against her husband. So she can spare me on the fake moralism about the protection of
01:31:01.240
women. It's a fucking lie. Like everything coming out of her mouth. Go ahead, Emily.
01:31:05.080
Well, no, no, no. I was going to say, like, like Lutnick, this is a completely brazen lie.
01:31:09.560
CNN Andrew Kaczynski, CNN's K-file over there, has pointed out in these emails, we see how closely
01:31:16.080
Doug Band, if you've covered DC politics and you have for a while, you know that name. He was
01:31:20.760
Clinton's number two, just like Boris Nikolic was Bill Gates's number two. He was helping Doug Band
01:31:27.360
and Ghislaine Maxwell set up the Clinton Global Initiative with funding. And Ghislaine Maxwell herself
01:31:32.640
was pretty involved in the early stage of getting the Clinton Global Initiative off the ground.
01:31:38.240
There are emails back and forth that are just so gross between Doug Band and Ghislaine Maxwell,
01:31:42.900
where they're like calling each other boo-boo. And they're very, very, very close to say the
01:31:48.000
absolute least. And so that is absurd. That's a completely misleading statement. And on top of all
01:31:54.260
of that, people forget in that Epstein Netflix documentary that came out a couple of years ago,
01:31:59.280
there is a man, I think it was a maintenance man. His name is Scully. He's in the film saying he saw
01:32:03.720
Bill Clinton. This is a guy, his name's out there. He's out there. He's on camera saying he saw Bill
01:32:07.700
Clinton at the island. So there's some significant evidence that these are big lies from the Clintons
01:32:12.560
too. But I think, honestly, Megan, Howard Lutnick survives. I think the Clintons ride off into whatever
01:32:18.760
sunset is left for them. I don't know that there are going to be significant consequences in either
01:32:24.680
case. There aren't. There's not going to be significant consequences for any of these people.
01:32:29.820
I mean, for the most part, what we're seeing is just disgusting, debased behavior, not necessarily
01:32:36.480
illegal. And that's what's frustrating to so many of us, right? It's like, I don't know whether Bill
01:32:41.440
Clinton violated any laws with Epstein or otherwise. I'm pretty sure his Clinton initiative stinks to
01:32:47.200
high heaven and that needs a full vetting and investigation, his foundation. But I don't know
01:32:53.420
whether he committed additional crimes and we're never going to have accountability, even if he did.
01:32:57.600
Go ahead, Ryan. No, nannies, plural? I mean, come on. Seriously? I just got four kids. I got four
01:33:03.780
kids. Like, plural? Maybe they're super young. Of course. But come on. I mean, Howard Lutnick is a
01:33:10.520
billionaire, so it's like, I'm sure they outsourced virtually everything. And then he has the nerve to
01:33:16.460
lie about it. It's just like, so we're on to you. You knew this was coming out. Why would you be so
01:33:21.900
reckless? And where's your damn apology? You make yourself into a James Clapper. Not wittingly.
01:33:27.680
This is supposed to be a more transparent administration. And what President Trump
01:33:32.420
doesn't need is a liar in the position of Commerce Secretary about something as serious as your
01:33:37.920
connections with Jeffrey Epstein. And it was such a bold-faced lie, Michael. Like, not only was he in
01:33:45.200
a room with him, he went to the guy's island. He started a business with him, reports CBS. I mean,
01:33:56.060
You know, yeah, it's bad to lie. I agree it's bad to lie. I mean, I don't think he should have to
01:34:03.620
step down for it. He didn't lie under oath. You know, I mean, he would probably himself say it
01:34:08.920
wasn't a lie. He just forgot about it. I'm not supporting that at all. I agree it's bad behavior,
01:34:15.100
but I don't think he should. I don't think he should have to step down for what we've seen so
01:34:19.340
far. I'm not saying he should step down. He shouldn't step down. But wait a minute, though.
01:34:22.960
He should take responsibility for his lie. Not just to anybody, but to Miranda Devine,
01:34:28.760
who most of us on the right love and respect. He humiliated her, lied right to her face,
01:34:34.940
and he had to have known at some level this was going to come out. And he owes her an apology,
01:34:38.520
and he owes the rest of us an apology for lying to our faces. I will tell you, it's fine if he
01:34:43.300
doesn't step down. I don't believe one word that comes out of his mouth from this point forward.
01:34:48.600
But if we're going to say that Rumler should step down because of her lie, because if she was
01:34:54.320
straightforward about what she was doing, she was literally his attorney. And so you'd be like,
01:34:59.220
look, it was my job to give him the best possible counsel I could. I gave that to him. I now realize
01:35:07.000
like the depth of his depravity. I regret it. But as an attorney, like I am, that's my job.
01:35:14.860
Lutnik wasn't his attorney. Like he didn't have to go to the island. There was no professional
01:35:19.060
reason. Maybe he couldn't get a reservation at Big St. James or whatever. But that's not an excuse
01:35:24.380
to then like lie about it. He was on a yacht. Right. I think he was good. Yeah, he would have
01:35:28.800
been fine. Yeah, he probably had some shrimp cocktail in the fridge. They were going to be,
01:35:32.280
they could get by. So it's the lie. It's the same thing. It's,
01:35:37.000
it's just, and he's such a good liar. That's what's so, I think, scary about the Lutnik.
01:35:42.960
It's like, he's, he's, he's this incredible storyteller. Patrick Bateman.
01:35:47.100
Moves in between the whisper and the like drama and like, and he's, he's got you captivated and
01:35:53.200
you're, and you're like, and then if, if the story would have ended with, and I never saw him again,
01:35:57.600
except for when we got into business together and went to an island when I went over, we had some
01:36:02.900
drinks and, and, and like, but otherwise never again. Other than that, and that business we
01:36:09.360
started for CBS. Other than that, no. By the way, on the Hillary Clinton thing, CNN's Andrew Kaczynski
01:36:14.840
points out, Maxwell was an honored guest at the prestigious Clinton Global Initiative Conference
01:36:20.280
September 2013. Like she was, she was at Chelsea's wedding. But, but Hillary tries to make it sound
01:36:26.820
like, oh, you know, maybe occasionally, but let thousands of people go. Are thousands of people
01:36:31.540
an honored guest and show up at your daughter's wedding? She's the worst liar of all. Dating the
01:36:37.520
guy who's throwing the conference? You can tell. Yeah, exactly. So she's a liar too. Megan, I will just
01:36:45.860
jump in and say, shout out to Norman Finkelstein. Norman Finkelstein is a very famous critic of
01:36:52.120
Israel. And he's, as far as I can tell, the only person who just bluntly says to Epstein, I think
01:36:58.360
Dershowitz has CC'd on the email, you know, to basically go to hell because of these various
01:37:04.120
accusations. He's the only person that seems to, you know, represent good moral values, you know,
01:37:10.340
and I think that, um, I think Tina Brown kind of did that too. Okay. Yeah. I mean, Norm, can I just,
01:37:16.600
we only have a couple of minutes left. Can you, can I ask you, have you seen anything in the files
01:37:20.920
about Trump that's worthy of study or follow-up? I've seen it. Oh, go ahead. Go ahead. No, no,
01:37:29.200
you go ahead. I was just going to say, I've seen a message that shows, it looks like Melania Trump,
01:37:34.920
reaching out to Ghislaine Maxwell in 2002. That may show, I mean, it's, it's not huge, but that's
01:37:40.460
one thing I haven't seen in a lot of places. Potentially Melania and Ghislaine had a little
01:37:44.160
bit of a friendship that we don't know much about right now per that email. Um, but that's just one
01:37:49.060
thing that I've come across. I think Trump largely benefited from the fact that this tranche, all these
01:37:54.560
documents seem to be dated like post 2006. And I think his friendship with Epstein was over then when
01:38:01.500
they were friends, they weren't, they weren't big on emailing or texting, or at least not as evidenced
01:38:05.800
by anything we've seen. Go ahead, Michael. Oh, no, I was, I was just going to say, um, you know,
01:38:11.180
following up on the Finkelstein thing is just, we saw, you know, this brought down a major titan of
01:38:15.640
the left in Noam Chomsky. You know, they, uh, they basically, you know, said that, or his wife said
01:38:21.960
that he was one of their best friends. Um, so I just think, yeah, it's a, it's an indictment of this
01:38:28.200
culture of the elites. And I think to bring down such kind of esteemed people, I mean, Chomsky was
01:38:34.140
always considered, even if you didn't like his politics, was always considered sort of above
01:38:38.040
reproach and highly moral person. And here he is just kind of waving these things away. So I think
01:38:43.080
it's an amazing, uh, just to look back on it. I mean, I just credit to all the conspiracy theorists
01:38:48.040
who demanded that the files be released against, um, so much elite pressure against it. And, um, I think
01:38:55.320
we've seen it's really bipartisan reaction. It's a very, I think it's a very, been a very positive
01:38:59.040
experience for the most part. I like that as an ending. Let's hear it for the conspiracy theorists
01:39:02.560
and we will put a pin in the Prince Andrew discussion for another day. Cause that that's
01:39:07.080
going to take a while. And we just, we're out of time guys. Thank you. Thank you all so much.
01:39:10.780
Uh, we come back in just a bit with the latest on the Nancy Guthrie investigation and there are updates.
01:39:16.600
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01:40:25.620
Welcome back to the Megan Kelly show. We couldn't wrap today without diving into the latest in the
01:40:29.200
Nancy Guthrie case. Sheriff Nanos making the media rounds yesterday, sitting down with multiple outlets
01:40:33.920
instead of just holding a press conference, which would be very easy if he would just stand up there and
01:40:38.840
take some cues. He revealed that investigators are now exploring genetic genealogy testing on the DNA
01:40:44.560
evidence collected after hitting a dead end in the CODIS database, the FBI's database of convicted
01:40:50.860
felons and also arrestees. There's been no match to those gloves that were found in the field. And it
01:40:57.720
appears he's also saying there's been no match from the DNA. That's not Nancy's nor any of her contractors
01:41:02.880
inside of her home that they found. So dead end right now, that doesn't mean that they can't do
01:41:08.480
something with the genetic genealogy, which we'll get into in a minute. Plus TMZ's Harvey Levin
01:41:13.220
announcing they've received yet another ransom. He just told Sean Handy last night that they would
01:41:20.160
not be announcing any more letters, but he just couldn't help himself. He got something and it
01:41:24.600
was a chance to be on TV. All that and more with our regulars who are back to discuss it all. Jim
01:41:30.260
Fitzgerald, also known as Fitz, he's a former FBI supervisory special agent and a forensic linguist,
01:41:36.180
also co-host of the Cold Red podcast. Maureen O'Connell, a 25-year-old, 25, she looks 25, but she's a
01:41:45.320
25-year veteran of the FBI and a co-host of the Best Case, Worst Case podcast. And also security
01:41:51.800
expert William Geddes. Guys, thank you all so much for being here. So a dead end, absolutely, on the DNA,
01:42:00.660
which is not a shock, right? I don't think it's a shock. And now they're going to try to do genetic
01:42:05.800
genealogy on them. But I mean, to me, you guys, this is like, now we're going to do genetic genealogy
01:42:10.740
on the two gloves that were found two miles from the crime scene. Like it was one thing to see. It's
01:42:14.820
fine. I guess it doesn't hurt. But is this even a real lead? These two gloves found two miles from
01:42:19.920
Nancy Guthrie's home when they found 16 gloves or 15 gloves. And like, they didn't come back with a hit
01:42:26.800
that matched anybody in CODIS, nor did they match the DNA that was found at the home.
01:42:32.880
So are we spinning wheels here or what, Maureen? No, we've got to look at those black gloves because
01:42:37.900
they match the gloves that the offender was wearing when he was up at the door. And also,
01:42:43.440
when you create distance between yourself and the crime scene, you know, you feel a little bit safer.
01:42:49.820
Maybe he got out just to, as I said earlier, as crass as it sounds, relieve himself,
01:42:54.920
and they fell out of his pocket or he reached in to pull his phone out or something to turn his phone
01:43:00.540
back on while he was standing there and the gloves fell out. I know it sounds crazy to a lot of people,
01:43:05.600
but if you've worked a lot with those gloves in your pockets, you know, they sometimes do fall out.
01:43:11.880
So I don't think that that's a dead end at all. I'm very disappointed, though, to your point about
01:43:16.160
the lack of CODIS hits or even because in CODIS, you can also get close relatives and we don't even have
01:43:24.220
close relatives for either of these DNA donors. So that's that's concerning. But the whole job of law
01:43:31.560
enforcement is you're just muddling, not muddling through, but you're working, working, working until
01:43:38.120
something pans out, which oftentimes can take a long time. And it's, you know, it's hard being
01:43:45.240
patient, but patience is is a virtue. Here's one thing that does seem like a good lead, at least for
01:43:54.520
now. On Tuesday, law enforcement was in Nancy's neighborhood and two officials came out to the
01:44:01.460
side of one of her neighbor's homes with a ladder and appeared to be checking the surveillance camera.
01:44:07.800
On the neighbor's house and looking at a phone, CNN reported this and said they'd reached out for
01:44:15.240
clarification on what they were doing. But at Nancy's house, you saw Pima County Sheriff's
01:44:19.920
Department vehicles in the driveway. And then one person coming out of the house with a bag,
01:44:24.660
wearing blue gloves. So they're still, I guess, finding evidence in Nancy's. And there they are on
01:44:30.420
the side of the neighbor's home, looking at security cameras at the neighbors. And then the founder of
01:44:39.600
the Ring doorbell cam, Jamie Siminoff, was actually on CNN and spoke to what could possibly be happening
01:44:48.600
there. Here is what Jamie Siminoff told CNN's Kate Boldon. When you see and we'll show the video again,
01:44:56.240
investigators up on a ladder and they say they're conducting follow-up, follow-up investigations or
01:45:02.260
referencing a phone, looking at this, looking at a camera. What are they likely trying to confirm?
01:45:07.140
Is there a range of possibility? I mean, it's hard to speculate. The footage, it does appear to be a
01:45:14.140
Ring floodlight camera. Again, it's pretty small in the picture, but it does appear to be one of our
01:45:18.500
floodlight cameras. The footage would be in the cloud if it was there. So maybe they're looking at the
01:45:24.400
angle of it. Okay. Now Fitz, that to me seems somewhat promising. If you've got the neighbor's
01:45:31.220
floodlight camera on Nancy's home and something could be, could have been recorded.
01:45:37.540
Promising 16 days ago though. Why are they just looking at that now? That's 101. I mean,
01:45:44.260
we talked on your show and others, Megan, every, you know, red light camera on the street and of
01:45:49.240
course getting closer. Of course, uh, Nancy's house itself, which they finally got the, uh, you know,
01:45:54.080
the video off of that. I don't understand why they even have to go up on a ladder to do anything. I
01:45:58.800
mean, it's in the cloud as the, as the guest on CNN said. So, uh, yes, this of course should be
01:46:03.940
looked at. It should have been looked at. And I'm not here to criticize people. This is one of the
01:46:07.980
basic things. And, and, and, you know, uh, crime scene one-on-one nowadays, anyway, get all the
01:46:13.620
nearby cameras you can, search warrant or subpoena, whatever it takes. I'm surprised it took this long
01:46:19.260
unless it's, they're going back for something else that was missed the first time around with that
01:46:24.820
camera. So good news. They're doing it. Maybe could have done 16 or 17 days ago.
01:46:31.480
Well, same with that, uh, the search on the helicopter for the connection with her pacemaker.
01:46:35.760
It's like, sure. Glad to see you doing it now. Would have loved to have seen it day one,
01:46:40.260
two, three, four, and thereafter. Will, your thoughts on, um, the gloves not matching. And
01:46:45.040
we believe the sheriff is a little ambiguous, but we believe he's also said that there's no
01:46:48.440
matched Dakotas from the DNA they found in the house. And also the fact that now they're getting
01:46:53.240
around to the neighbor's ring cam on the floodlight. Well, I think they've got, I think they've got to
01:46:58.880
sort of process any evidence that they potentially can gather and, uh, either see it as valid and
01:47:04.940
viable. And it actually leads them to perhaps another piece of evidence that they can potentially
01:47:10.060
springboard from, uh, to trying to identify and, and saying the identity of who that individual
01:47:16.400
was that was at Nancy's house. Um, but ultimately it is, it's pepper seeds. It's, uh, it's all this
01:47:22.940
intelligence, all these little bits of evidence, uh, they will all gather together, hopefully in a big
01:47:27.400
picture that can then form a better understanding of exactly what went on and who was possibly
01:47:33.700
involved. I agree with Fitz entirely on the camera, on the neighbor's house and why they're doing it
01:47:39.400
right now, uh, really does surprise me because I would have hoped one of the first things that would
01:47:44.140
have been done by even a junior officer would be to go around, map up every single house that had a
01:47:50.100
camera to inquire with the homeowner, whether it was still working. And there's a chance they may have
01:47:55.920
been up on the ladder because maybe the user or the home, the homeowner that the camera was attached
01:48:01.700
to their residence, uh, may not have registered their details, maybe didn't have a live connection
01:48:06.200
or had lost it at some point and logged out. So again, it's seeing whether it actually has any
01:48:11.180
power still to it. And there's every good chance. Maybe it didn't have any power. And if it didn't,
01:48:16.200
then obviously that's not going to bear any fruit, but all the cameras, the entire route,
01:48:21.400
and as Fitz said, uh, even any red light cameras, uh, it should try and chain a daisy chain,
01:48:27.560
almost, um, the, the access, the, by this individual and the egress in which direction
01:48:33.220
do they leave? What was the vehicle? Can they identify a license plate? All that sort of intrinsic
01:48:38.140
intelligence. So now they're going to go try genetic genealogy for the DNA that they've recovered
01:48:45.000
on the gloves. And again, the reason I say it's ambiguous, whether they've gotten a match in CODIS
01:48:50.780
or not on the DNA inside the house is because the sheriff is, you know, it's not that precise
01:48:55.400
with his language. And Jonathan Hunt of Fox news asked him, is there a CODIS match from the DNA in
01:49:02.000
the house? And he said, no, which, okay. That's why in our AM update this morning, we reported that the
01:49:09.680
sheriff says no, no match, um, from the DNA in the house. And I think the FBI actually also said that,
01:49:16.060
but then later that day, the Pima County Sheriff's department put out, or today was today, put out
01:49:21.920
something suggesting they're still testing the DNA in the house. So just put an asterisk after it. We
01:49:27.600
don't, as is, has become typical. We don't totally understand what the sheriff is meaning to say.
01:49:34.560
Um, but genetic genealogy is hot. It is the future of law enforcement. It is very, very hot. It's
01:49:41.540
amazing how they like CC Moore, who's been on the show a couple of times. Um, she's the, the godmother
01:49:47.760
of it. And, um, she, she was saying, this is why you're not going to have serial killers anymore in
01:49:54.820
the United States because it's just to like touch DNA doesn't have to be yours that they find like in
01:50:01.480
their database. It can be your sixth cousin and CC Moore when she's sicked on the case of, okay,
01:50:06.920
we can tell that this touch DNA we found on this crime scene belongs to someone who's a distant
01:50:12.300
relation, um, to, you know, our, whatever we can find that it's this, it it's, it's related to this
01:50:19.440
person who we got a hit off of, but we know it wasn't this person who's in our CODIS database
01:50:23.400
because this person is a hundred years old and in hospice. So you start from that hundred year
01:50:28.880
old person in hospice and you start drawing circles around the person and getting to all
01:50:33.020
their relatives until you can get closer and closer and closer in this case to Tucson, Arizona
01:50:37.000
and somebody who might be living there. And then this is how she does it. She figures out who did
01:50:41.020
that person marry? Who are their children? Who are their grandchildren? Who did they marry?
01:50:44.440
Where are they from? She pulls up birth announcements. She pulls up death announcements.
01:50:48.120
She actually came on and explained it with respect to the Kohlberger case on, on, cause you know,
01:50:52.100
in that case they grabbed his trash and, um, did, did testing and that's how they often do it.
01:50:56.540
They grabbed your trash, which is why Brian Kohlberger was putting his trash into his neighbor's
01:51:00.540
bin. Um, in the moment he was arrested, he was doing that by the way. Anyway, here she is
01:51:06.220
describing the process and because this is what's now going to be done to the DNA on those gloves
01:51:10.180
and probably also that found in Nancy's home. This is pretty common when investigative genetic
01:51:16.320
genealogy has pointed law enforcement toward a certain individual or family, and they'll do what's
01:51:22.000
called a trash pull. If they can't just follow that person and pick something up that they dropped,
01:51:26.560
then they'll typically resort to waiting for that person to put their trash out on the curb.
01:51:31.140
And most States allow this. It's considered abandoned at that point. And then they go through the trash
01:51:37.020
and try to find an item that might have DNA on it. But when it's a home like this, a household where
01:51:42.340
there's multiple people, they don't know exactly whose DNA they're going to get. So in this case,
01:51:47.200
they found a male sample of DNA and tested it and it wasn't the suspects. However, they were able to
01:51:53.980
perform what is basically a standard paternity test comparison to the profile from the button on the
01:52:01.180
sheath and determined that that individual's DNA from the trash was the father of the individual who
01:52:07.760
left his DNA behind at the crime scene. So are we feeling excited? Let me ask you the fits about
01:52:14.920
the genetic genealogy possibilities here. Um, this is very close to home, uh, for me, Megan,
01:52:20.300
because the first case I remember as a little boy growing up in Philadelphia was the boy in the box
01:52:27.020
case and late fifties, a little boy found in a box and sort of the outskirts of Philly still in the
01:52:32.680
city limits. No one knew who he was. Everyone wanted to know this guy, this little boy's identity.
01:52:37.460
The V-Doc society, I've been wearing this pin. I think it's on this side, uh, every day,
01:52:41.320
everywhere I go, they're a cold case society in Philly. Finally, after all these leads all around
01:52:47.300
the world, who is this little boy? We got to give him a name about two, three years ago through
01:52:53.520
genetic DNA. Uh, and I think CC may have had some work in it. I'm not sure that little boy was finally
01:52:59.760
identified from West Philadelphia. They can put a name on his tombstone. Now he wasn't Potter's field.
01:53:05.160
The V-Doc society moved him. I'm also, so that was, that was great. A great accomplishment there
01:53:10.500
with genetic. We'd sort of figure out who killed him, but now we at least know his name and his
01:53:14.580
parents are unfortunately deceased. I worked a case in Lancaster PA as a profiler in the early
01:53:20.100
two thousands. It was the 25 year anniversary of a woman who was raped and murdered in her home.
01:53:26.020
And I just did a TV show called, uh, uh, Philly homicide. And, uh, with my friend Chris McMullen,
01:53:31.780
who's the host and that case came back, they finally solved that one with genetic DNA. And
01:53:36.120
I don't want to give too much away, but they actually went to Italy and found the town where
01:53:40.220
this DNA was originally resulted from, and they could put it all together in Lancaster and come
01:53:45.300
up with their suspect. It is amazing what can be done now. Uh, uh, with this, this type of
01:53:51.460
acknowledgement with this DNA and not just serial killers, but serial rapists, anybody leaving any
01:53:56.720
fluid behind at a scene, they're going to get identified. Let's just hope we have something
01:54:00.900
here at Mrs. Guthrie's house. Yeah. The problem for us here is we don't know if the abductor's DNA
01:54:07.380
is on those gloves or if the DNA they have found inside the house that doesn't match Nancy or one
01:54:12.820
of her service providers is in fact the perpetrators. You know, we could just be testing. I don't know.
01:54:18.540
Maybe she forgot that she had a dog walker come by, you know, two months ago, or maybe it's DNA from
01:54:23.780
when she had Savannah visit last. And one of Savannah's friends came over. Like, we just don't even know
01:54:29.260
that we're, it's not like we found, it's not like we saw the guy open up the doorknob with an,
01:54:34.420
with a naked hand. And like, we know the DNA we're testing on the doorknob belongs to the
01:54:39.340
perpetrator. So this is, we have to do it. I agree with you, Maureen, but like, man, we're spending a
01:54:43.440
lot of time running down DNA that may have absolutely nothing to do with the crime scene. Here's one more,
01:54:50.060
Sot of C.C. Moore talking about how, because they go to the public databases that have people's DNA
01:54:59.320
in them. And it's not, they're not supposed to go to 23andMe or Ancestry.com or Heritage.com,
01:55:07.280
which are private. That's where the four of us would go if we wanted to see like,
01:55:11.980
how Scottish am I, you know, or what diseases might be latent inside of me. Those are not supposed
01:55:17.500
to be accessible by the feds, but here's C.C. explaining. You're using a website, not 23andMe,
01:55:23.460
not Ancestry.com called GEDmatch. And my understanding is the way you populated this GEDmatch,
01:55:31.320
because you point out you need as many samples on there as possible, is by encouraging people
01:55:36.780
who are into this, who would like to connect with other relatives, to take their 23andMe,
01:55:42.920
their Ancestry.com results and upload them to GEDmatch and to widen the chances that they'll
01:55:49.440
connect with somebody. Right. So GEDmatch was started by two friends of mine, Curtis Rogers
01:55:54.540
and John Olson back in 2010, 11. And of course, when it started, there was no one in there. So we
01:56:01.140
had to convince people to download their raw data from one of the other sites, which at the time was
01:56:07.440
23andMe and family tree DNA and upload to GEDmatch. And so it was just a small site, kind of a
01:56:14.280
playground for more advanced genetic genealogists. It was where we could try out new tools. We could do
01:56:20.580
cross-company comparisons. So if you tested at 23andMe and I tested at family tree DNA or later
01:56:27.620
Ancestry, we could both upload there for free and then compare our data looking for those long
01:56:33.420
identical shared segments. Okay. But here's the thing, Will. In Kohlberger, they tested the DNA.
01:56:43.620
They found out that knife sheath against GEDmatch or GEDmatch, and they did not get a match because
01:56:51.140
this is a much smaller database than if you were to include 23andMe and Ancestry and Heritage and all
01:56:56.340
that. And they compared the DNA anyway to those private companies' DNA. It became a big issue in
01:57:07.280
Kohlberger. Brian's defense attorney wound up trying to exclude the evidence, saying they violated the
01:57:16.000
DOJ's policy not to take advantage of the private databases because of the general skepticism and fear
01:57:23.420
people have of the government having access to their DNA profiles. And the judge denied the motion
01:57:30.100
saying that's, you know, they may have violated a DOJ policy, but that doesn't make this inadmissible.
01:57:36.160
And of course, they wound up having Brian Kohlberger's cheek swab by the time they went to
01:57:41.680
trial and then settled it. But like they had, there was a zero doubt that they had found the right guy.
01:57:46.840
In any event, couldn't they potentially do the same thing here? Get a warrant or beg the companies?
01:57:57.260
That's what somebody was saying. I would beg Savannah Guthrie to go to all the companies and say,
01:58:03.580
please give us permission because you can give us permission. It's not a violation of law to let
01:58:08.400
us have access to this so we can see if there's a match to find this kidnapper.
01:58:12.740
Yeah, I'd agree, Megan. I think that there are two fundamental flaws potentially with this DNA
01:58:19.620
search on this from these elements that they've captured. The first of which is,
01:58:29.020
you know, will it make a match? And one of the problems is, is that with many of these private
01:58:33.660
DNA companies, most of the people who've contributed or donated their DNA have been doing it willingly and
01:58:41.260
they've paid for the process to try and find out those, the answers to those questions you mentioned
01:58:45.820
earlier about themselves personally, you know, their ancestry and whatnot. But the problem is,
01:58:51.880
is do we believe that the individual that we've seen on the ring doorbell, is that someone who would
01:58:58.900
go voluntarily himself by his own omission and submit a sample basically to try and find out this
01:59:06.140
information? That's, I think that's a bit of a lottery. And I think the second issue, as you rightly
01:59:10.400
say, is these are private companies. This could open up a nest of viper, so to speak, for many of the
01:59:17.820
individuals who have contributed their own personal data. This is private personal data, which they have
01:59:24.300
been assured by those companies would not be revealed unnecessarily. So there may be some serious
01:59:29.820
legal implications. The, you know, the other two on the panel may come back with a suitable
01:59:35.080
explanation as to why it may not. But my concern would be, I think there will be a lot of people
01:59:39.760
who may be on the fringes of criminality, who may have submitted that DNA, which is going to
01:59:44.540
give a lot of very revealing personal information about themselves, concerned that the DOJ is accessing
01:59:51.120
it and could, whilst they're there, harvest all sorts of other data.
01:59:54.440
That's the, that's the risk. It was CeCe Moore who said, if I were Savannah, I'd be going to
01:59:59.700
Ancestry.com and 23andMe, I think had to file for bankruptcy, but they're still around like some,
02:00:04.820
some remnant of it. In any event, it was CeCe Moore saying, if I were Savannah, I'd go to them and I'd
02:00:09.800
beg them to please let, let the FBI have access to their databases, which is interesting that it's
02:00:15.420
voluntary. You know, they could do it. It's like the companies don't really have an incentive to do it
02:00:19.780
because I mean, already they're struggling. The reason 23andMe was filing for bankruptcy, I just,
02:00:26.100
I don't want to like completely get it wrong, but I'm pretty sure they had to file for bankruptcy
02:00:28.740
is because it's a one and done kind of service. You pay your a hundred dollars, you get your DNA
02:00:34.000
analyzed and you never go back again. You know, it's like, it's not like the iPhone where they can
02:00:38.580
continue giving you shitty iOS updates on your phone, ruining your service. And then you have no
02:00:44.020
choice, but to buy a new one that now that's a business model that can stand the test of time.
02:00:48.660
But this with these private DNA companies isn't. And so it's, they're going to undermine
02:00:53.840
themselves even more. If now the message is you should upload and we'll tell you whether you have,
02:00:58.920
you know, the gene for Alzheimer's and also we'll tell the government as soon as they come knocking,
02:01:03.900
we're going to tell them whatever genes you have and also whether your brother's a criminal.
02:01:09.400
Yeah. I mean, there's, there's another quick question I'd like to pop in, which is,
02:01:12.240
what is their data retention policy? I mean, how long did this, they keep that DNA? Once you've,
02:01:18.660
spent your a hundred bucks, you've got your result. How long did they keep that data there?
02:01:23.380
There must be some public published policies for these companies, which say maybe they only hold
02:01:30.020
it for six months or maybe a year. And then to give capacity to their server or to their files,
02:01:37.280
Go away. My team is telling me, I'm correct. They filed for bankruptcy in March of 2025.
02:01:42.160
Yeah. You brought up the iPhone. I remember, I think it was 2014,
02:01:46.080
the mass shooting in San Bernardino, California. It was a Muslim couple and they shoot out with
02:01:51.800
police. They wind up dead. There's a cell phone next to them, one or two cell phones,
02:01:56.240
Apple phones. And you probably everyone remembers this.
02:01:59.580
And they tried to get the police, FBI, Hey, give us the code to the phone. We can see
02:02:03.500
who in Al Qaeda they're talking to or ISIS, whatever. And Apple said, Nope, not going to do it.
02:02:08.440
Not going to do it. It's kind of the same principle here. And apparently Comey was
02:02:12.340
director. He didn't do too many things right to my estimation, but he somehow got an Israeli
02:02:17.020
company that could break the software or had software that could figure out the code and
02:02:20.280
that they had their information there. So that to me, that's akin to what we're talking about
02:02:23.940
here with the rights of people who submit their information. There are some DOJs that I wouldn't
02:02:28.240
have a problem with my information. Like maybe right now there are others I wouldn't necessarily
02:02:32.940
trust. That's kind of the big brother aspect of it all. So I kind of get where they're
02:02:37.640
coming from, but you think there could be exceptions with a special kind of a warrant,
02:02:41.660
special kind of a court order. And every once in a while, it could be done for the case like this.
02:02:47.020
I mean, with the permission of the company, you could do it, but you know, the ideal way of doing
02:02:50.440
it, Maureen is to keep it quiet. You know, I think one of those companies, yeah, I would quietly say,
02:02:57.780
okay, we'll do it. But for the love of God, don't publicize that we worked with you,
02:03:02.040
but there's so much scrutiny on this case. I think they all know we're going to know if
02:03:07.780
they give it over for analysis by the FBI. I think they'd also have a job, Megan, to reverse
02:03:13.460
engineer for it to be admissible in court. So if it was a more covert operation to do that DNA match
02:03:20.200
through those organizations and those organizations were compressing it.
02:03:24.340
I mean, in Kohlberger, she did not exclude it. Or I can't remember, it was a he at that point.
02:03:29.880
The judge did not exclude it, but you don't want to run the risk if you don't have to. But I mean,
02:03:34.060
there's so much pressure on the cops in this case, Maureen, like they, I don't know, you tell me
02:03:38.560
whether they'll be tempted to try to go to Savannah to ask her to appeal to the private DNA companies or
02:03:43.740
whether the FBI might just do it. In Kohlberger, they just did it. I think they just have the ability
02:03:50.860
somehow to access it. Well, yeah, because I'm remembering if you can if you know, you can come
02:03:55.900
up with a D with a DNA STR, which is like a license plate. It's like 40 numbers that you can submit
02:04:02.720
into CODIS and everything like that. But if you're trying to do the SNP, the SNP, which they need to do
02:04:09.000
a forensic genealogy upload, that's like a novel. So that's a whole different ball of wax. So we are
02:04:15.900
not even to the point right now that we've been made aware yet that the DNA that they have enough
02:04:22.460
DNA or the right kind to create a SNP. And although Cece Moore is the godmother of forensic genetic
02:04:29.080
genealogy, my good friend from FBI LA, Steve Kramer, and now Steve Bush also, they're the godfathers of
02:04:37.200
it. And they're friends with Cece. They just had lunch with her the other day. But they were explaining
02:04:42.200
the whole difference to me and how we're not even at the place yet where we know that we have a SNP
02:04:49.100
unless they have it and they haven't told us. Right. You need you do need a hit to somebody like
02:04:56.400
there's got one of your distant relatives must have submitted their DNA to one of these organizations
02:05:03.780
for you to be potentially caught if you're the perp. But like if you're one of those people who's
02:05:08.820
lucky enough that not a single person in your circle around you or your distant family ever
02:05:14.340
gave the DNA, then you won't be caught this way. But it's getting rarer and rarer as people
02:05:20.220
continue to use these services. I want to keep going because there's a lot there's not a lot more to
02:05:24.140
get to. The sheriff, he gave a bunch of interviews yesterday. Gosh, there's I don't even know where to
02:05:30.460
begin. He he said that they are continuing to check the Nancy's ring cams for images, including of this
02:05:44.400
perp, including possibly of Nancy's egress from the house. And obviously, they're checking now the
02:05:50.520
neighbor's ring or nest cam, the ring cam. I think we just that's who we played the soundbite from.
02:05:56.000
And that same ring founder on CNN explained a little bit more about what they're doing to try
02:06:03.300
to search for these like right now. Possibly lost, but not deleted images that may still be stored
02:06:14.140
on like their central cloud or their central computer system. Let's listen to him.
02:06:19.540
They call it scratching. It's like the way it was described to me is you've got eight layers of paint
02:06:25.040
and you want to peel down to the sixth layer. But you get to that fifth layer, you might tear the
02:06:29.780
sixth layer. So there it's a delicate operation for them. This idea of scratching and what he's
02:06:36.020
talking about. What would you think? What is he describing here? And again, not to describe how
02:06:41.520
they would do it, but I would say just overall databases and how storage is. There's sometimes
02:06:45.980
remnant data that's stored. If you don't run, we run scripts. As soon as you delete a video at ring,
02:06:51.000
we run a script that basically takes it off of the server. If you're doing live view and you don't
02:06:54.980
have a subscription, we actually don't record it. So for us, we don't have these remnant data,
02:06:58.300
but remnant data in databases can exist if you don't run sort of a deletion script. So it's almost
02:07:03.240
like, to me, it's more like putting trash in your can in the kitchen and just haven't taken it out to
02:07:08.560
the street yet. So it's still in there until you basically take it out. So it is, I think what
02:07:13.380
they're describing is there's some data that somewhere it's hard. It could be in multiple places. It could be
02:07:18.800
sort of broken and they're trying to put it back together is what it sounds like they're doing.
02:07:22.740
Okay. So that's so interesting. What he's telling us there, Fitz, is it's a good thing Nancy had a
02:07:27.980
nest and not a ring. Because if you're not going to get the subscription service and you have ring,
02:07:33.740
there's no chance of recovering an image that the camera saw but didn't record. But if you have nest,
02:07:40.880
there is a chance that it is sitting there until the trash has actually been taken out.
02:07:47.700
And that and we saw you got you the three of us were together when the images came in of the
02:07:53.540
abductor. And we realized that that trash had not been taken out. And there is still a chance that
02:07:58.500
there's more trash sitting there that hasn't actually gone out to the the dumpster for the
02:08:02.500
garbage guy to pick up yet. Yeah, there's no doubt there are some tech people from the FBI Academy
02:08:08.180
Laboratory, the FBI Laboratory at Quantico working probably in the offices with the nest company with
02:08:14.960
their text. And who knows some other private sector people they're bringing in to do everything
02:08:19.180
they can to get into that, that type of information of these multiple levels of scratches. There's no
02:08:25.420
doubt highly proprietary information here and technology that even the ring guy we heard didn't
02:08:31.760
want to necessarily reference too much. I know they're probably similar setups, but they may have
02:08:36.520
their own specific designs. And yeah, he made it very clear with ring, you don't have a subscription,
02:08:41.140
you're one and done, or you're none and done, I should say. But with Nest, of course, you have
02:08:45.560
that chance of getting that information out. So they are working diligently on this and going back,
02:08:50.880
I hope, not just for that night, but you know, as far back weeks or months as they can, with every
02:08:55.820
camera they come upon, quite frankly, and hope they once have subscriptions, that would make it easy.
02:09:00.500
But they got to really mine these camera systems in every way they can with the most modern
02:09:06.280
technology, even in a way they have to sort of invent it like this Israeli company did what
02:09:11.100
their software to get into the password of an iPhone. So they're working on it. It's a question
02:09:15.440
of when they're going to find it and of course what they find. Well, let's hope this ring camera
02:09:22.100
on the floodlight of the neighbor, okay, which is not Nest, it's ring. So it won't have stored images
02:09:28.580
unless the neighbor has a subscription service. Let's hope that that neighbor has a subscription
02:09:34.160
service. Presumably they do, or ring would have said, we can't be of help to you. I mean, it's two
02:09:39.380
weeks later, so there's not going to be anything there. So presumably they do have a subscription
02:09:42.540
service. Otherwise, why would they be spinning their wheels? The sheriff was asked by Brian Enten
02:09:49.020
about additional cameras at Nancy's. Now keep in mind, Ashley Banfield reported that there was a Nest
02:09:56.880
cam in the front, that we already know, and that there was one in the back too, and that both of the
02:10:02.700
Nest cams at Nancy's were taken. And the sheriff has never confirmed anything about the back door.
02:10:08.520
He has never, he has said, we don't have the Nest cameras. So like whatever number there were,
02:10:15.880
they were taken. And he won't confirm forced entry. He won't say whether the perp got in through the
02:10:21.680
front door or the back door. But Brian did ask him about additional cameras in SOT 56. Take a listen.
02:10:27.980
I know that you and the FBI were able to get those surveillance photos off the camera in the front of
02:10:33.100
the house. Any progress on the other cameras? Can you do the same thing? Well, I'm hopeful. So
02:10:40.060
there's other cameras. Your question, will we get more? We've asked that Google, hey guys,
02:10:50.780
can you do this? And they said the very same thing. Sheriff, we don't think we can get anything,
02:10:57.140
but we'll try. And that's all we're hopeful. And so as of now, it's still just the video from the
02:11:02.560
front? Yes. Okay. So the sheriff, hard to hear there, but was saying there are more cameras.
02:11:08.560
He has said that before. He didn't specifically say it's an, it's another Nest camera, but he didn't
02:11:14.520
sound too hopeful in that particular soundbite. And it's been now more than a week since they found
02:11:23.900
the video of the abductor on the front porch, Maureen. So are we getting pessimistic about the
02:11:31.420
odds of recovering another needle in the haystack? I'm getting pessimistic about that and it hurts my
02:11:38.860
soul. But I do know that if you recall when the sheriff gave one presser, he said that with their
02:11:48.420
strong partnership, or no, it was Kash Patel who said with our strong partnerships with the private
02:11:53.500
sector, we were able to go in and help Google with their things. So I have faith that the FBI
02:12:00.160
people, if they're embedded in there and they're allowing them to work there, that they will have
02:12:05.940
the best luck because the FBI does unbelievable work. I've seen it. One of the guys on my team used
02:12:12.340
to do that work for the Bureau. It does take a lot of time. It does take a lot of patience and it takes
02:12:18.240
an unbelievable amount of experience and intelligence when it comes to these type of systems. Old ones
02:12:24.860
cobbled together with new ones with, you know, is there a SIM card attached? Does it have, is it in the
02:12:30.420
cloud? Is it on a recorder at the home? You know, all these things together and they're going to be
02:12:36.900
digging very carefully in every, down every single alley. So my hope is low. My expectation is low, but I'm
02:12:46.320
hoping that they're just going to come up with something great for us.
02:12:51.720
I mean, it would be the best place to get more, more evidence if they could possibly get anything
02:12:57.000
out of there. The sheriff also spoke with Fox News and Jonathan Hunt and had this to say about
02:13:03.040
exploring any connection in this crime to Mexico, Tucson, of course, where she lives, being an hour
02:13:11.580
away from the southern border. Here's what he said in SOT 53.
02:13:15.360
Any suggestion at all that Nancy Guthrie might have been taken across the border into Mexico?
02:13:22.580
Are you looking at that at all? You know, I'm sure the FBI has looked into that as well, but,
02:13:27.680
but no, I mean, we check all the leads we have. Um, we're like everybody else. We know where Mexico
02:13:33.800
is in relationship to this and certainly it's a possibility, but no, we have nothing to indicate
02:13:38.420
that. So this just in from Fox News is Michael Ruiz, a federal law enforcement source confirms the FBI
02:13:47.240
has contacted Mexican authorities in connection with the Nancy Guthrie case. So the sheriff says they
02:13:54.240
don't have any firm evidence that she's been taken across the border and says there's no indication
02:13:58.820
she was taken there, but we are contacting the Mexican authorities. Is this like the sheriff seems
02:14:06.860
every time he's talked about Mexico, he's like, no. And then we find out the FBI is talking. How can
02:14:12.640
he say no? We don't know who did it. I'd like explain that to me. Will like, why is he like, no,
02:14:18.240
it's not Mexico. How do we, how the hell do we know?
02:14:20.240
I don't know, Megan. And I have to say every single time I see an interview or any words coming
02:14:24.980
out of his mouth, uh, I'm almost aghast at his somewhat ambiguous and foggy answers to everything
02:14:32.440
or definitive answers when really, to be honest, he shouldn't be saying anything. I mean, again,
02:14:37.040
this is what I was saying. We were discussing last week, which is about, it's so important that
02:14:41.840
those updates that you are providing have to be as accurate as possible. They cannot be in conflict
02:14:48.920
with what the FBI may be saying or doing. And ultimately you're going to lose more and
02:14:53.720
more credibility. And the family, you know, Savannah and the other family members will
02:14:58.800
be losing their, their, their faith and hope in the capability of actually retrieving their
02:15:04.040
mother in whatever capacity that might be. Uh, I think again, the problem with the sheriff,
02:15:09.120
I mean, even going to the cameras point, he was said other cameras. So there was inevitably
02:15:14.200
more than one backdoor camera. That was the front camera also in terms of Google. And I've worked
02:15:19.480
with Google and I've looked, looked at also data retrieval on a number of projects and operations
02:15:24.080
investigations. And if Google were able to retrieve obviously the footage from the front camera,
02:15:30.860
from the, the Nest camera, obviously on the front door, then they should be able to retrieve the
02:15:35.920
footage from the ones at the back. And there should be a very quick interrogation of Nancy's
02:15:40.360
financials, looking at her credit card statements, looking at her bank account to see if she's got
02:15:45.280
a, a Ness subscription. You should be able to find that out literally within 24 hours.
02:15:50.640
Mm-hmm. That's a good point. The, the sheriff, I'm sorry. I, he's lost credibility with me. I
02:15:57.720
no longer believe the sheriff. Um, this is just one example, but the whole business, this is yet
02:16:05.440
another example of like, the sheriff seems to be making it up like no Mexico. Okay. I, I don't
02:16:11.080
believe you. I, I don't know whether it's true. It's not true, but I know that you don't know enough
02:16:14.480
to say that yet. And then the thing about whether the family member members have all been cleared.
02:16:20.160
This is the chronology. It's changed again. Here we are on Wednesday. It's, it's been changing every
02:16:27.420
day this week. Okay. Let me tell you on Sunday to the daily mail, the sheriff, nobody has been cleared
02:16:33.140
as suspects. Uh, on Monday in a press release, the family has been cleared as possible suspects.
02:16:40.700
NBC news reports that same day, absolutely no evidence was examined in order to get to the new
02:16:46.580
conclusion. So we knew the sheriff had pulled it out of his hat, right? Like when he said no one's
02:16:53.960
been cleared. And then the family has been cleared. We all said, Oh, they must've gotten a DNA.
02:16:58.000
Something, something came back. Like something got him there. No, NBC reported absolutely nothing
02:17:03.480
changed. It's just the sheriff just deciding to tell us they've been ruled out. And then he added,
02:17:09.860
and they've been ruled out from the first early days of the case. Well, then why did you tell the
02:17:14.080
daily mail on Sunday that no one's been ruled out? Why did you say that? Why did you say that every
02:17:17.760
day for the preceding 12 days that no one had been ruled out? So it seemed very clear that he was
02:17:22.560
trying to do the family a solid on Monday by just saying they're all ruled out. Then the FBI wouldn't
02:17:29.120
go that far. Just kind of had a no comment in response to his, the family's ruled out. Then
02:17:34.240
Wednesday, yesterday, uh, sorry, no Tuesday, which was yesterday. He comes out after the showtime and
02:17:42.080
said, the Guthrie, the Guthrie family has not been identified as suspects. They've not been
02:17:48.300
identified as a suspect. Well, that is not the same thing as being ruled out, being cleared. That
02:17:56.240
that's not the same thing at all. That's a massive walk back, which he did. And then he sits down with
02:18:02.460
Fox news is Jonathan hunt. And that he asks the sheriff, this is within an hour of him doing the
02:18:10.500
walk back of saying, well, they haven't been cleared. And this is what he says. Stop 51.
02:18:16.080
You are 100% certain that there is no connection between the kidnapping and the siblings or the
02:18:25.640
siblings, spouses, the Guthrie siblings. I am completely, I think we put out a statement
02:18:31.200
yesterday. I put it out 100% certain that this family has been completely victimized and the
02:18:41.820
re-victimization should not occur ever. No, I, Jim, you are a linguist. The, the, it's no,
02:18:53.380
none of it works. None of it does work. And these, uh, exonerations always bother me. And the John
02:19:00.720
Benet Ramsey case, the family was completely exonerated by the boulder. Not saying anyone in the
02:19:05.820
family killed the girl, but just a complete exoneration to me makes no sense. I'm on a
02:19:11.360
podcast right now. My, my own podcast called red. We're talking to the father of a woman killed in,
02:19:16.380
uh, British Columbia, uh, in 20, uh, 2008 and the family, uh, the police, their sound HPD have
02:19:23.580
completely exonerated her boyfriend and her boyfriend's mother. And now we have, of course,
02:19:28.320
uh, uh, the sheriff in this case, exonerating the family, unless you're putting handcuffs on someone
02:19:33.560
else with DNA evidence, uh, there is absolutely no purpose. And where's the DA in this? Can you
02:19:39.200
imagine being the district attorney? Somehow the family, you know, evidence points to a family
02:19:44.060
member, how much the arguments will be before the jury that will, the sheriff himself said they're
02:19:49.600
not involved. What did this change? You know, what, what political aspect came in and then you all of a
02:19:54.120
sudden change ideas here and they were exonerated, they're not. And it's all they need in front of a
02:19:58.860
jury, uh, you know, just to, just to make one person say, Oh, I'm not guilty. So there's no
02:20:03.660
purpose for these, these exonerations. You can say, we're not focusing on the family right now
02:20:08.360
and leave it at that and move on, but it doesn't mean you've closed the door. And, uh, unless there's
02:20:13.560
some, unless they're playing, you know, 90 chess and quite frankly, I don't think the sheriff is on
02:20:21.000
that level of a chess board of any way. Maureen, like Sunday, no one's cleared Monday. The family's
02:20:28.620
cleared Tuesday. Um, the family's, uh, not identified as suspects right now. He said right
02:20:35.640
now, then within an hour of that statement, the interview to Jonathan Hunt. So you're saying
02:20:40.460
they're 100% cleared. They've 100% been victimized, which is like, what, what is he doing?
02:20:50.600
He's really making it difficult for whoever the prosecution team is. And if I were on trial prep
02:20:56.500
with this, I, I know the first meeting with the prosecutor, we would just sit there and drop our
02:21:01.940
hand, our face into our hands saying, how are we going to circumnavigate this nightmare? Because
02:21:08.460
if he thinks he's not going to be put on the stand and just grilled left, right, and center
02:21:12.820
for all these contradicting statements, you know, it's just a disservice. In my opinion,
02:21:18.480
all of his jaw jacking is a complete disturbance, um, divergence from what should be important,
02:21:26.700
which is the investigation and the, uh, and the noble professionals that are carrying out all these,
02:21:33.080
you know, investigative leads and following these lines of inquiry, because this is just, um,
02:21:39.200
not helpful. And that's the nicest way I can say it.
02:21:43.460
Um, yeah, just be quiet about it. You know, it's well, it's like put aside Ashley Banfield's
02:21:48.680
reporting early on that her senior law enforcement source said that the brother-in-law may be the
02:21:55.180
prime suspect at this time. Put that aside. We, we all have been watching them tow the Guthrie car,
02:22:00.320
the Annie Guthrie car, who's married to Tomas. We watched them go into Annie and Tomas's house
02:22:05.220
in, in the dark hours of the evening and keep the lights off and take a bunch of photos. We watched
02:22:09.260
them come out of the house with what looked like evidence bags. Um, like we we've watched them be
02:22:14.840
asked specifically about Tomas and refuse to rule him out or rule out any family members.
02:22:20.980
And then suddenly one day, like magic, the sheriff says cleared, the FBI doesn't back it up.
02:22:26.880
And then the next day comes out and won't say cleared again, but just says, Oh, not identified as
02:22:31.000
suspects. And we're all supposed to be shamed out of discussing Tomas or Annie or anybody like we're
02:22:38.280
supposed to take his cue that it's not nice. He keeps saying it's mean. I don't know what,
02:22:42.760
like I'm gleaning that the sheriff may genuinely not think that this guy did it,
02:22:46.920
but I don't think we can say the FBI has ruled him out. And this seems like another example of
02:22:53.340
piss poor coordination on his part. I think it shows a lot more than that. I couldn't agree
02:22:58.500
more with what Maureen and Fitz have both said. What we're seeing here is his ego driving his
02:23:05.060
interactions and updates. And that's fundamentally all it is. And he's he's dealing with it,
02:23:09.940
as you rightly say, in a personal, not a professional fashion. Until such time as Nancy
02:23:16.400
has been retrieved, living or not, nobody can be discounted as a potential suspect. They can be
02:23:23.720
put on hold or put on ice temporarily whilst other inquiries are searched through. But,
02:23:28.160
you know, it is his ego and his really obscure and officious and obfuscating answers, which really
02:23:37.140
are baffling and embarrassing more than anything else. I think there are probably people in his own
02:23:41.760
department who are just biting the table, hoping for him to shut up and fingers crossed, you know,
02:23:48.340
someone should be stepping into his place. Being a spokesperson for the sheriff's department,
02:23:52.980
the sheriff himself, he's he's an embarrassment to his team. It's it's it's gotten out of hand.
02:23:59.460
It's just I mean, nobody believes him now. It's it's adding sort of a joke element to this case,
02:24:04.840
which is the last thing we need. There's a very funny guy online. I've been following him. He's
02:24:10.480
actually coming on the show tomorrow. We're going to talk about this. But he he's taken to calling
02:24:13.520
Nancy Nancy Benet Ramsey because it's just there's so many aspects, you know, of the case where it's
02:24:20.760
like, OK, I mean, is she in the basement? Did you check under the bed? Did you check the closets?
02:24:26.580
Because the sheriff does not instill confidence at this point. And it's not we're not used to it.
02:24:31.020
Like when the FBI handles a case, you guys know they say very little, but they are the ultimate
02:24:36.800
pros. They come out, they answer only what's asked and say nothing in excess of what they've decided
02:24:46.560
before they've gotten in front of the reporters. They're going to say it's utter message discipline,
02:24:52.620
Maureen. And that is not what we're seeing from the sheriff because he seems, frankly, too emotional.
02:24:58.480
Right. And you said it great. We keep our mouth shut. And part of the reason we do is because we
02:25:04.980
we understand through experience how many times we've had to pivot on and off of things.
02:25:09.720
You know that there are so many different machines moving at crazy paces right now that there's it
02:25:19.080
would be just it's just Daryl. It's just I don't know the word I'm looking for, but reckless, reckless.
02:25:27.180
It's reckless to to say that everyone's cleared when you have so many things going on. Now,
02:25:33.080
if there's nothing going on in the investigation, then it makes sense. There's nothing going on.
02:25:37.340
We're not doing anything. But I mean, even the simple thing where we don't even know how how
02:25:43.580
anyone got into the house. We're saying that, oh, well, on the timeline, if you look, it's it's
02:25:48.500
948 that they open the garage and it closed two minutes later. Well, there's a number of different
02:25:53.220
ways to open the garage, depending on your your device and how it's configured. You can open it with
02:25:58.720
a little clicker like this, which is probably what Nancy would have had in her purse. Or you could open
02:26:03.700
it, you know, through the keypad that we saw the the the the ERT team take from the side of the
02:26:11.680
garage. I believe that's what they were doing. I think I think would you guys agree that we saw them
02:26:16.400
remove that keypad. But the only thing, depending on how it's configured, the only thing that's really
02:26:21.960
going to keep a log of that entry is going to be an app. But if you're doing it, you know, in the old
02:26:27.900
analog way, if if it's configured in an in a way that that it can do all these different entry types,
02:26:35.600
you can have people coming in and out of that garage without any any log being produced on your
02:26:41.460
phone. So I well, you're making the point because Tomas was the one who dropped Nancy off allegedly at
02:26:47.080
948 that night after a night with Tomas and Nancy. I'm sorry, Annie playing games at their house.
02:26:52.800
And they said her garage, Nancy's garage door opened at 948 and closed at 950. But do we really
02:26:57.720
know that Nancy was returned at that hour? Do we know that she walked into the house? The pacemaker
02:27:03.140
and the iPhone may give us some clue. Presumably they've done phone analysis on Nancy's phone that
02:27:07.980
suggests she was back at home. But we don't know that because they do, Jim, keep going back to
02:27:13.000
Annie's house and taking pictures and so on. And so it is possible that law enforcement has seen
02:27:19.300
something suggesting we don't really know if if Nancy Guthrie was in her own home from 948 forward
02:27:26.440
that evening. Bottom line, we do not know that you are accurate. It's on the first day we've been
02:27:30.640
together, Megan. We've been discussing this timeline and we can't rule out some of these options. But
02:27:34.840
let me throw in a mitigating factor that we haven't discussed yet regarding the exoneration, if you will,
02:27:41.020
of the family. It's very possible the family themselves had requested the sheriff to make that
02:27:47.720
statement. You know, do your job for a week or so. Oh, yeah. Two weeks. That's what I think. And it
02:27:52.080
could be Savannah saying, look, you've got to do something here. My family didn't do this, I'm
02:27:57.080
convinced. And that's under that pressure. That's what happened. He's an elected official. There's a
02:28:01.140
lot of, you know, no doubt Nancy had a lot of friends there. He may be thinking of the next
02:28:05.180
election. OK, well, with any other evidence, no evidence at this exact moment pointing directly at
02:28:10.260
one of them. Sure, I'll come out and say this. So, yeah, I wasn't sure that was clear for your for
02:28:15.100
your audience or not, but just one. No, I agree. I think he said the day before that he really only
02:28:18.880
talks to Savannah and he doesn't talk to her that much. He said she's got like a team that he deals
02:28:23.180
with, but he barely talks to Tomas and barely talks to Annie. He said that. So to me, this is very
02:28:28.440
clear that Savannah does not believe her family is involved at all. I'm not surprised by that. And she
02:28:33.480
may be 100 percent right. They may they may not have had anything to do with this, but they have to
02:28:38.760
understand their fair game, given that they were the last ones with her and they're right down the road
02:28:43.040
from her. And they were the ones who shouldered most of the burden and taking care of her. And
02:28:46.700
I don't even know what her life insurance policy said or her will, et cetera. So like all of that
02:28:51.480
potentially makes them in the crosshairs. Every family member with a missing person understands
02:28:55.760
the family is going to be looked at and they're going to be looked at by the media. And there are
02:28:58.800
great, great, great things to having the media very interested in the Nancy Guthrie case.
02:29:02.700
Great things. And there are downsides, too. And this is one of them. If you're an innocent family
02:29:07.380
member and they keep talking about whether you had something to do with it. And it is a very small
02:29:10.900
price to pay for having this amount of media attention on your loved one's missing person's
02:29:16.560
case, because the media will help get this solved. The media has already come up with great leads,
02:29:21.220
great clues, great information. I'm sure that law enforcement is using and they will continue to.
02:29:26.200
But they're the ones who keep the public interested. And the public is the one that keeps the pressure
02:29:30.160
on the police. All right. So like you do not want the media to go away and you do not want the media
02:29:35.000
to stop asking questions. And much in the same way, you know, you can't be a public figure like a
02:29:39.780
Meghan Markle and go to all of the openings and then say, oh, but don't cover the mean things about
02:29:44.240
me. Don't say my show sucked. That's how this works, too. Like the media is involved because
02:29:49.740
you asked us to be there. You asked us to continue covering it. You keep putting out messages. We're
02:29:54.140
putting them on our shows. You can't say there can be no scrutiny of the family and you can't do it
02:29:59.860
directly and you can't do it through the sheriff. It's not how press works. We're going to keep this going.
02:30:05.000
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And we're back now with our panel. Okay, guys, so when we left off, we were discussing how you got to
02:31:54.400
take the good with the bad. The media is going to speculate. It's going to do its thing. It's going to
02:31:58.060
talk about possible suspects and possible leads. It's not all great, and it's not all rainbows and
02:32:02.580
unicorns either. Well, that's the nature of the game.
02:32:04.740
Yeah, absolutely. And I think I was seeing your piece that you did, Megan, about influences and
02:32:10.720
about influences actually contributing to the theory testing, to the possible suspects, to potential
02:32:17.480
avenues. In the same way as Maureen and Fitz and myself are exploring different avenues with
02:32:22.900
yourself as to what the actual sheriff is doing, what the investigation is looking at. And I mean,
02:32:29.360
we're seeing ourselves from a professional perspective, us doing this on The Daily Grind,
02:32:34.760
that there are so many flaws in how this process is being followed. And Maureen was bringing up,
02:32:40.200
obviously, during this break, you know, an interesting point about the family entering the
02:32:46.360
Well, I just I was watching a breakdown on a that I've come to love in the last couple weeks,
02:32:52.820
which is called The Interview Room. And it's a bunch of season four season detectives that have
02:32:58.960
about 150 years experience in all kinds of things from patrol all the way through homicide and everything
02:33:04.780
in between and with the doctor on there. But they were breaking down a number of things. And the one
02:33:09.120
thing that really caught my attention was this, the things that are missing from the timeline.
02:33:14.560
And one of them was, how did the family enter the house? I always wondered, why is that such a big
02:33:20.380
when? When the family came over after mass? Sorry, I should have made that clear. When they came
02:33:26.080
over the day they found her, when they realized that she wasn't at the church service at her friend's
02:33:32.540
house, how did they get into the house? Did they go in the back door and leave it ajar? Did they
02:33:38.440
enter the keypad? Or because if you look at the timeline, it has what time she went in 948 the night
02:33:47.140
before and that the door closed at 950. Does anyone on earth really believe that an 84 year old woman
02:33:53.420
with a walker gets out of a car, walks through a garage, gets in the house and is in and the other
02:33:58.920
person gets out and within two minutes? And didn't the sheriff say at one of his first pressers that
02:34:05.680
the family helped her get into the house and gets settled? Well, there's no way all that's happening
02:34:10.980
in two minutes. You're like, hey mom, you good? Let me turn the lights on. Is everything cool? All
02:34:16.780
right, we'll see you tomorrow. You know, that's a five minute interaction. And I just don't understand
02:34:24.180
why something like, where did they enter? Could the back door have been ajar because that's where they
02:34:29.780
came in and they forgot to close it. Okay, that's a good data point. There's just silly things that
02:34:35.960
are missing that belong in the timeline. And no one knows why and no one will tell us. The bureau's
02:34:41.940
not going to tell us. We don't know that. That's a very good point. You're right when you think about
02:34:47.680
it. Like I have an 84 year old mom and she's mobile. She's limited in her mobility too. Though you
02:34:55.900
try to mess with her, you're going to get the cane right in between you. You know what? Don't mess
02:35:02.140
with my mom. But she would take a while. Definitely. She would take a while once we
02:35:08.280
got her to the house. And like you say, you don't just like open up the grass door, kick her out,
02:35:13.060
be like, bye mom. You know, when they're 84. You do. You make sure. Yeah. You get them in. You walk with
02:35:19.880
them. You get them into the house. You make sure they're okay. And then you leave and you close the
02:35:23.820
door. That's a good point that no one has really spoken to that. I have two other things I got to
02:35:30.300
get to, including this. The sheriff was asked about this reporter. There's a reporter named
02:35:40.100
Brianna Whitney. She works for Arizona family. We discussed it the other day and she came out with
02:35:44.860
this on Sunday as an exclusive. Again, she's, she's not some crazy reporter. She's done good reporting in
02:35:49.760
this case. Uh, and this is what she said inside. I think it's 55 B. Hi guys. We are now able to
02:35:56.040
independently confirm some new information in the Nancy Guthrie investigation. This is from an
02:36:00.800
inside source that is now reportable. I want to take you through the new information we've learned.
02:36:05.040
We can now report investigators now believe this was a burglary gone wrong. We've interviewed
02:36:10.820
multiple experts since this began, who also said based on the evidence, surveillance video,
02:36:15.200
and other aspects of this case that they also believed this was not an intended kidnap.
02:36:21.120
Okay. So none of us bought that when last we talked and, uh, the sheriff doesn't either. He was
02:36:28.140
asked about it here in SOT 55. And I talked to him about this reporting that has been out there,
02:36:33.400
not repeated by us, that this was a burglary gone wrong. The sheriff said it was not. Listen again to
02:36:41.560
the sheriff. You just said you, and your briefings, you believe it's a kidnapping. I believe it was a
02:36:46.980
kidnapping. Targeted kidnapping. Yes. I believe whoever did that knew what they were up to. So do
02:36:51.640
you believe who they were after? Okay. So he's gone a little further there. So he's debunking her
02:36:58.620
reporting saying, we do not believe that. Uh, they do not believe it was a burglary gone wrong,
02:37:03.880
that, that we do believe it was a quote targeted kidnapping. Uh, so that's a little bit more. I'm not
02:37:09.860
sure if he said targeted kidnapping before, meaning this was about the fact that it was Nancy Guthrie,
02:37:14.300
which is very interesting. So that's not a burglary gone wrong. It's either somebody who
02:37:19.300
didn't like Nancy or somebody who didn't possibly like Savannah, but somebody who went in there
02:37:24.300
looking to take this 84 year old woman because she was Nancy Guthrie, which is very interesting.
02:37:31.040
Is it not Maureen? It's very interesting, but I'm not going to, um, hold him to it because chances are
02:37:37.000
he's going to change his comment tomorrow. Yes. Fair enough. Fair enough. Let's not spend too much
02:37:42.880
time speculating about it. Right. Because who knows, but I like that wasn't an accident fits that
02:37:48.840
he, he said as much as he did. Well, wait, what am I saying? It might've been purposely, purposely done
02:37:55.440
on accident. Uh, and, and his use of the term kidnapping, the linguist to me, I think he may be
02:38:02.400
referring to abduction. There's, there's a difference. Kidnapping has different legal connotations
02:38:06.820
that is being done for profit or some other thing of value in that regard. So, uh, it, it was an
02:38:12.180
abduction. I would agree with it there, but let me go back to, uh, the, the burglary part. Uh, I worked
02:38:17.540
a lot of burglaries as a, uh, as, as a police officer and later in the FBI in New York, um, commercial
02:38:23.620
burglaries are at night, residential burglaries are during the day. Statistically, we're in the high 90
02:38:29.620
percentile of when they happen. Um, burglars don't want to confront people. They want to get there. A
02:38:35.840
lot of them are scaredy cats. I'll use a little kid term. If they see someone in the house, they
02:38:40.000
want to get out of there, especially if you have the mask on already. And, and most burglars don't
02:38:43.580
even have to wear a mask like that. If they think the house is unoccupied or whatever, which of course
02:38:47.940
maybe wasn't, you had a mask on, get the hell out, run. Um, the other thing I'd like to know about
02:38:52.420
the Tucson area, we were half seriously joking about this, Megan, what kind of a place is Tucson to live
02:38:58.880
now? These, all these, uh, randos outside with backpacks and throwing things around. What, I need
02:39:04.500
context. Are there other residential burglaries or even peeping Tom's reported within a 10 mile
02:39:11.260
radius, quite frankly, the whole city of Tucson, the whole metropolitan, metropolitan area.
02:39:15.520
Well, there's definitely a peeping Tom who's about 10 miles away, which we did cover.
02:39:18.960
Yeah. Uh, we've seen that, that person, but are there other burglaries? That's a specialized
02:39:23.320
nighttime burglaries in a residence. That's a whole special type of, you know, you hear about the cat
02:39:28.440
burglar. They, they kind of make them sexy in the movies and all, but you know, these are usually
02:39:32.600
just, just, just random, you know, half-ass criminals that do this stuff. I just can't imagine
02:39:37.640
this guy is all geared up for this in a house that is not overly ostentatious. If he did any research
02:39:43.480
at all, an 84 year old woman, she's not going to keep a lot of cash around necessarily. Uh, it just
02:39:50.900
wouldn't be worth the effort. The risk he is taking would not be worth the payoff for a burglary as far
02:39:57.000
as I'm concerned. This was an abduction plan. And you burgle, you burgle the house of burglary
02:40:02.820
has a specific meaning in the law too. It means like you've broken into a house and you intend
02:40:07.800
to rob it. It's different than a robbery. Um, but so burglary, you, you break in, you want to rob the
02:40:14.680
home of its goods. And all you take is the infirm 84 year old will like it's a fail. It doesn't work.
02:40:22.300
That's a real fail as a burglar. It doesn't scan. I mean, there are just too many contributing
02:40:26.780
factors. I mean, we looked at, uh, and we discussed obviously the weapon that he was wearing overtly,
02:40:31.900
the wrong semi-automatic in a revolver holster. Uh, I mean, that was used, uh, you know, incompetently,
02:40:38.780
but visibly and more often than not that is used to suppress any resistance by someone that you might be
02:40:45.520
looking to abduct rarely used in the capacity of a burglar, uh, who's anticipating coming into a
02:40:51.280
fight as Fitz says. So there was that also, I do not know of many cases where a home invasion or a
02:40:59.040
burglary has resulted in any victims being then removed from the property. You know, if someone is
02:41:06.840
injured or harmed, they're left in the property itself. And if they've gone to the trouble of wearing
02:41:12.700
gloves to try and conceal their identity and masks, then ultimately, unless it's, you know,
02:41:18.540
even if it was an assassination, the body is left there, but trying to leave as little evidence as
02:41:23.340
possible as to who was behind it, but for her to be removed, but there to be blood, obviously blood
02:41:29.080
scatters outside the front of the property. Um, it doesn't scan as a burglary whatsoever in my book.
02:41:35.100
It's an abduction. It's an abduction until a ransom is issued. And I think one of the biggest problems,
02:41:41.820
Megan, is that this case garnished so much publicity so quickly. I think these guys I've,
02:41:47.980
I've been, I've worked against, uh, Mickey Mouse kidnappers, amateur kidnappers in the past,
02:41:53.900
you know, they're scared people. They're not professionals. And that's why I'm not buying the
02:41:57.500
over the border into Mexico necessarily by a cartel or an organized crime group necessarily.
02:42:02.200
But these, these were amateurs who were looking maybe to make a buck. Um, this wasn't a particularly
02:42:07.940
affluent era. Uh, they were probably looking for a low yield express kidnap, but because it garnished
02:42:13.480
so much publicity, I think they've run scared. I wonder too, like we, we've talked about the family
02:42:22.060
two miles away from Nancy for all the obvious reasons. What other family is there? I'd love to
02:42:26.260
know more about the Guthrie family. Are there like extended family in the, in the area, you know,
02:42:31.680
even like long-term friends of the family who might've gotten a cockamamie idea about
02:42:36.880
that Savannah Guthrie's mom, you know, I bet she'd pay. Like it, it should go beyond family.
02:42:42.880
Like she grew up there. So there's going to be a lot of friends who've known the family for a long
02:42:47.440
time, you know, maybe not actual friends anymore who are looking at Nancy Guthrie and Savannah's bank
02:42:53.300
account as a solution to their problems. I'm sure law enforcement is looking at all of this.
02:42:58.300
Because there's no question she's going to have friends in the area who know that that's her mom
02:43:02.060
from, from having grown up there. Um, so like the, the quote family word should be extended out to
02:43:08.220
what cousins are there, what aunts and uncles are there, what third cousins are there, um, who may feel
02:43:14.240
less of a, an emotional affinity for the family and, but may be aware of the situation of, you know,
02:43:21.100
Savannah and her husband, he makes money too. He works for the NFL, by the way, the husband, this was so
02:43:28.140
wrong. TMZ, I don't know what you're doing in this case, but the husband, his name is Michael Feldman
02:43:33.940
was coming back to Tucson from having been, I think home with their kids. And, uh, TMZ got him at the
02:43:41.820
airport in this tape here and kept asking him the questions. It's just, it makes you feel so
02:43:46.960
uncomfortable. Here's the tape. It's at 69. Michael, how are you, sir? Michael, how's the
02:43:52.300
family holding up? Is there anything you can say? All right. Michael, is there anything you want to
02:44:00.100
say to the people who, who have done this? Michael, how's the family holding up? Anything you can say?
02:44:11.160
Thank you. Okay. So this was, I don't know if it was a TMZ reporter or if it was just a stringer,
02:44:17.500
but TMZ posted it. So clearly they bought the tape either way. And, um, I mean, you can't lose
02:44:23.920
your humanity in covering a case like this. You know, it's like that guy is absolutely suffering.
02:44:30.120
His wife is suffering. Their two children are suffering because it's their grandma. It's their
02:44:35.720
mother who's doing these tearful, you know, Maureen is just like, this is, this is what gives the
02:44:40.380
press a bad name among other things. It absolutely does. It's just, it's just terrible. Especially
02:44:45.120
I was thinking of the, of his kids and how he's trying to keep his, he probably loved his mother-in-law
02:44:50.620
by all accounts that, that, that guy that came to the door could have come to the door in the daytime
02:44:56.560
and she would have let him in and shown him where everything was just to get rid of him. She seems so
02:45:00.820
kind. And, and for, you know, for the little kids to have to suffer through this, this loss or this,
02:45:07.020
this freak show of what's happening with this case, you know, all their friends are asking
02:45:12.340
them at school, you know, their neighbors are always looking at them. It's, it's very, very,
02:45:17.100
it's pulling, it's really hurting those children. And so the father is hurt and he's trying to support
02:45:22.460
his wife and ban do his job. It's, it's just a lot. And it, it was just in very, very bad taste in my
02:45:28.620
opinion. Guys, listen to this. As we're discussing the possibility, the sheriff's statement of targeted
02:45:36.140
kidnapping and the possibility that somebody understanding, I mean, it could have just
02:45:41.060
been about Nancy Guthrie, but the odds are it has something to do with the rich daughter. I mean,
02:45:44.940
I think that's, that's probably the smarter bet. Um, Fox news reporting. This is the headline
02:45:52.020
internet user. They don't know who searched for Nancy Guthrie's address and daughter's salary
02:46:00.100
before today host mother vanished. This is literally breaking after the discussion we just
02:46:06.720
had. It's crazy. Um, I don't know how you can tell this. Fox news is citing Google trends.
02:46:14.200
An internet user appears to have searched for Nancy Guthrie's home address in the weeks prior to her
02:46:18.880
suspected abduction. Google trends shows, uh, last week, the FBI released a description of the
02:46:25.320
individual scene. They're talking about the guy five, nine, five, 10 with the Ozark trail hiker
02:46:29.460
backpack, other identifying items. Hold on. Read more. Um, Fox news digital has learned that
02:46:38.300
mysterious Google searches for Nancy's address and Savannah's salary occurred before her disappearance.
02:46:45.960
Google trends records show there was one search for Guthrie's address in the Catalina foothills
02:46:50.720
between June 21st and June 28th, 2025 by someone in Arizona. They can tell you exactly where the
02:46:57.200
search came from. The address was searched again once on January 11th, 2026. That's one of the dates
02:47:05.620
that the sheriff's office is asking people to check their ring cameras for. This is getting creepy.
02:47:13.280
The January 11th date also surfaced in a message on the ring camera app. He's now, now he's this,
02:47:18.980
this guy's in my head. Um, let's see, uh, a Pima County Sheriff's department captain replied to the
02:47:24.640
post asking users to look for the verified post. Okay. Man questioned. Hold on. Sorry. I'm reading
02:47:30.640
live. Where's the part about him searching. Free offense behavior. We talked about this week. Yep.
02:47:39.820
Yeah. Wait, standby. My, my crack producers texted it to me. They can read faster than I can. Um,
02:47:44.440
there were two separate, which one is it, Debbie? Is it the, which text do you have? Three from you
02:47:50.520
here. There were also two separate Google image searches for Nancy's address in Arizona. One
02:47:57.560
again, sometime between March 1st and 8th, 2025. Oh, Google image searches, guys. Google image
02:48:05.540
searches. In addition to like just typing in, in the Google search bar. Okay. Also two separate Google
02:48:10.960
image searches for Nancy's address in Arizona. One was sometime between March 1st and 8th,
02:48:15.620
2025. The other was between November 30th and December 1st, 2025, specifically looking for images
02:48:22.660
or a map of the home. In addition to the address in the days leading up to Nancy's disappearance,
02:48:29.760
in the days leading up to Nancy's disappearance, quote, Savannah Guthrie salary was searched
02:48:36.160
from Tucson sometime between December 13th and 20th. For comparison, CNN anchor Anderson Cooper,
02:48:45.220
who grew up in New York City, generated one search for Anderson Cooper salary in the New York City area
02:48:50.040
between March 29th and April 5th. Fox News' Sean Hannity also grew up in New York and Sean Hannity's
02:48:55.200
salary was searched once between May 3rd and 10th, 2025. Whoa. What do you make of this?
02:49:01.620
Yeah, we've been talking about this since the beginning. Victimology, about our victim,
02:49:08.120
all the family members, friends of family members, but then going to the offender himself.
02:49:12.900
What were they doing in the weeks, if not months beforehand? One of them is obsessive,
02:49:18.580
you know, internet interest and usage. And who's looking up the parties here involved in this
02:49:24.840
particular case? And of course, that includes starting to buy materials, backpacks, ropes, you know,
02:49:30.360
all these things, the Uncle Mike Holster, whatever's in there. But it's no surprise to me at all,
02:49:35.200
as we said earlier, and my partner and I are going to put out on our Cold Red podcast later today,
02:49:40.900
the full profile of this person. The pre-offense behavior includes this type of activity.
02:49:45.120
And if anyone knows the person, you know, and their computer has those images locked in there
02:49:49.660
somehow or a search history, that's a very, that's a person I want to talk to. And the tip line
02:49:55.160
should be called. Yes. What do you think, Will? Well, I think this is an absolute treasure trove.
02:50:01.640
I mean, as Fitz said, this is the advanced reconnaissance. This is the research that's
02:50:05.200
done in advance on a potential prospect. So I think there's going to be some reverse engineering
02:50:10.520
against the IP address, which Google, no doubt, will be able to attribute to those searches
02:50:14.620
to actually see any other history, any other IP associated data searches that have been undertaken
02:50:23.480
throughout this period from 2025, right up until obviously the date of the incident itself.
02:50:30.440
So yeah, this is a very useful, very useful bit of a lead that can be now hunted through.
02:50:37.300
And with Google's assistance, that they could be obviously warranted or subpoenaed to assist them
02:50:42.540
on this. And ultimately, this is the sort of thing that Google would love to no doubt to be able to
02:50:47.540
assist them with. I mean, so you've got, I'm just trying to go through the timeline here. So you've
02:50:52.680
got November 30, between they say, between November 30th and December 1st, someone searched for an image
02:51:00.440
of Nancy's home. On January 11th, someone searched for Nancy's address and had also searched on June 21st,
02:51:09.000
between the 21st and the 28th. So in the summer of 25, they searched for Nancy's address.
02:51:14.080
Then again, two weeks before the kidnapping. On March 1st and 8th, between March 1st and 8th,
02:51:23.440
they searched for images of Nancy's home. And then again, on November 30th and December 1st.
02:51:28.260
Again, now we're coming up to within two months of the kidnapping.
02:51:32.720
And then on December 13th, between December 13th and December 20th, somebody searched for Savannah's
02:51:40.780
salary. Now I will say this, as a news person, they often search for your salary.
02:51:49.600
Like I've seen that because there's all sorts of speculation online about what my salary is,
02:51:54.780
what all news person's salaries are. By the way, they're like incredibly off,
02:51:59.600
like so off every time. They never get it. There's a whole video on YouTube about
02:52:03.280
my lavish lifestyle. I'm like, oh, let's see. What do they have? Like literally nothing in there
02:52:08.000
is mine. Not the house, not the car, like nothing. I'm like, okay. It's all fake.
02:52:14.620
It's good they're getting them wrong. It's good they're getting it wrong.
02:52:18.140
It's very good. Yeah. But it's so weird. Like things are made up. So, but I'm just saying
02:52:22.260
it, it may not be as exciting as we think that they search for Savannah's salary because they do
02:52:29.740
that when you're a public figure, but it's just a little, it's very eerie to see they searched for
02:52:35.160
that. And within two weeks of that, they were searching for images of Nancy's home. And within
02:52:42.040
three weeks of that, they were searching for Nancy's address. Now we don't know if it's the
02:52:47.660
If these searches come back to the same person, Maureen.
02:52:50.600
Yeah. I think if they can actually join the dots together and if it can be attributed to
02:52:56.240
the same IP address for those searches, albeit in those different periods, that falls into
02:53:00.960
what we'd call a traditional planning cycle or attack planning cycle. So, you know, there
02:53:05.980
will be the selection of the potential prospect to kidnap if it was indeed a kidnap. They would
02:53:11.200
then revisit, they'd look at that site again, see if there was any changes, see if there
02:53:15.740
was any alterations. Certainly if there, but I wouldn't have discounted them, which is
02:53:20.220
why all these ring and nest cameras of neighbours is going to be so essential to see if there's
02:53:24.940
any repeated behaviour. I mean, in the small area that she lives in, you know, Nancy lives
02:53:29.460
in, you know, there will be a very easy pattern of the vehicles associated to the residents
02:53:37.660
in that area. Any other vehicles other than delivery vehicles, if they're privately owned,
02:53:43.340
will be very easy to identify whether they be, you know, vans, trucks, whatever it might
02:53:51.360
Maureen, why, why, yes. Why would they be, and I don't know, I, and what I just quickly
02:53:58.480
read, they didn't source this to law enforcement. So it's possible they say Fox News has learned.
02:54:04.420
Okay. So it is sourced to law enforcement because there's, there's nobody else who's calling Fox
02:54:08.900
to, to tell them that they, that they did this. They learned this.
02:54:11.780
It's probably part of that public private law enforcement. Why would law enforcement want
02:54:18.960
Well, first of all, it's a big lead. Secondly, they're not driving by this house in June and
02:54:25.160
on these other dates, well in advance of the, um, abduction with masks on or at nighttime.
02:54:33.020
So, I mean, I just think it would be fantastic if, uh, one of these clowns got a, um, uh, a ticket
02:54:40.460
on one of the, uh, speeding cameras is the speeding cameras don't record, but they do take your photo
02:54:46.680
when you're driving through and that light goes off. And boy, wouldn't that be a bonanza of a tip
02:54:52.780
or a Tesla, a Tesla camera or the neighbor? Maybe that's what they're doing with the neighbor's
02:54:58.400
ring cam. Maybe it's not even about getting, they already checked that one perhaps for the night
02:55:02.660
she disappeared. Maybe they're going back to see whether anybody did a drive by daylight on any of
02:55:08.100
these dates stuff, which they still should have done weeks ago, but that's okay.
02:55:15.140
But that, that's so eerie. You guys, that's, that, that is very eerie to me that like they've got
02:55:21.600
somebody searching. I mean, as I say, it's not unusual to search for a public figure's salary,
02:55:26.760
to search for the location of a public figure's mother's home, like to search for an image. Now,
02:55:32.780
maybe, maybe somebody is visiting her. I don't know. It's like, I, I, that's not how you figure
02:55:37.680
out where somebody lives though. Like if I'm going over, this happens all the time as a parent,
02:55:40.920
your kid's got a play date with a family you don't know. You, you text the other mom,
02:55:46.440
you know, you like who the hell enters like Google for like Joe Schmo's house that I've got to go to.
02:55:52.320
That's not, and then image search on top of it. Predators. It becomes unusual when a person is
02:55:58.620
kidnapped or abducted, whatever we're going to call it. Then you reverse engineer it. Then it
02:56:03.040
becomes something, uh, highly valuable, potentially highly valuable. You're right. Otherwise if no crime
02:56:08.380
ever happens, it's no big deal. But if something bad does happen, that's when, uh, in fact, it has to
02:56:13.620
take on importance and the investigators are in fact looking at that. And hopefully we just got
02:56:18.340
this information in the last, you know, half hour. I have, I assume people have been on this for days
02:56:22.800
now, if not even longer. That it is just eerie that, that new information is eerie. It's eerie,
02:56:31.180
but it excites, I would say Fitz and I are both, and I'm sure we'll, we're, this is exciting news for
02:56:37.100
us. Um, because way back then they weren't masking everything the way they would days before. So
02:56:43.540
this is a, this is brilliant. And there, there's going to be days in between. Very smart thing to
02:56:48.140
ask. Right, Maureen? Like what a smart lead for somebody to pursue? Like, let's see if somebody
02:56:56.920
searched these two things. That was a clever idea by some law enforcement officer. Well, it's, it's,
02:57:02.000
it's what you write in your subpoenas, any and all information related to this address and everything
02:57:06.780
like that. But it also takes the detective having a conversation with the analyst, unless the FBI
02:57:13.320
people are in there, which I believe that they are and say, Hey, what else can we check? Is there
02:57:18.020
anything else? Show me what else your systems can do. And you sit there and you go through it. And
02:57:23.320
then they're like, well, there's the thing that tells you how many people have looked at it or,
02:57:27.220
you know, so it's, it's these relationships that are built over years and these relationships that we
02:57:32.880
develop sometimes very quickly because of evolving situations that we're able to come up with this
02:57:39.180
stuff. So this is a, this is a proud moment. I'm very happy. I'm very happy for the team for this
02:57:44.420
because this is exciting stuff. Yes. I was just going to say where I was going to take us next was
02:57:51.460
we need a new lead because what the sheriff revealed and what's been revealed through just
02:57:58.760
reporting by various outlets is the gun search, you know, how they went to the gun stores and had
02:58:04.120
the 40 pictures and the 40 names that reportedly came up empty. Um, they did not get any hits off
02:58:11.400
of it. The DNA, as I said, for now has come up empty. Um, there was another thing they did that came
02:58:18.840
up empty and I'm trying to remember what it was. Megan, are you saying that the point is they were
02:58:23.180
running out of leads? Megan, are you saying that criminals don't buy their guns from gun stores
02:58:27.820
that they may get them on the street? As it turns out, they may not be doing it the way
02:58:34.720
the law abiding citizens do it. Shocking. Shocking. Yeah. A quick question I've got, Megan, is, um,
02:58:41.440
has there been any mention of Nancy's cell phone? Uh, did they retrieve it in the household or did it
02:58:48.040
vanish with her? And again, have they done any mapping against the cell phone? Because they should be
02:58:52.760
able to, if it was taken with her, they would certainly be able to see possibly some of her
02:58:56.840
locations. All I know is it's separated from the, it's separated from the pacemaker at 2.28 a.m.
02:59:02.660
Right? Like I was, we were told I, it could have been the watch, but I think it was the phone.
02:59:07.880
Then there's been some dispute about whether your watch can connect to your pacemaker. I've heard said
02:59:11.680
yes. I've heard said no. The sheriff has been kind of elusive about, and I'm sure this is an
02:59:16.680
intentional, like you got to give him that. Um, he can't give us everything. Like he, they do have to
02:59:20.900
keep some details private. So when they catch this perp, you know, they can, they can manipulate him
02:59:26.540
into confessing and sort of dangle things in front of him. However you guys do it. But my point is
02:59:31.040
simply, um, I still, to this day, remain unclear on whether it was the pacemaker disconnected from
02:59:35.860
the phone or the Apple watch. And I'm also unclear on whether, cause when she first went missing and
02:59:42.580
they were trying to say like, Savannah's mom is missing. And it was like, ah, she probably wandered off,
02:59:46.900
you know, and they were like, no, no, no, no. Her keys are back here. Her purse is back here.
02:59:50.040
Her phone is back here. And, and they did say phone at some point, but I'm not sure. I'm just
02:59:57.340
not sure. He has not given us some big specific phone mapping piece of detail. I imagine if, if Nancy
03:00:04.120
Guthrie had her phone with her, we'd know by now they'd probably have her by now. Right. It's like
03:00:09.360
it have her. Exactly. So I got to guess she had neither her phone nor her watch.
03:00:13.100
Because even when it's turned off, yeah. I mean, one of, one of the things I would
03:00:17.180
certainly want to look at is, um, as her call records as well. Uh, and because that could be
03:00:22.980
quite indicative or certainly illustrate any kind of pattern of behavior in terms of any calls that
03:00:28.040
have been received, any calls that she may have returned that, uh, whether there were dropped calls,
03:00:32.860
because even if you have a caller, no ID, a call come into your cell phone, the network will still
03:00:38.260
know what numbers are there. Can I ask Fitz a quick question? Yeah. Fitz, what do you, what,
03:00:45.660
what are your thoughts on, um, one of Harry Levin's many letters? He's, he can publish a book when this
03:00:51.560
is done, but, um, what, what, what are your thoughts on that last letter that said that she was seen in
03:00:58.860
Mexico with people or whatever? Do you think that could have just been, uh, a redirection, like to try
03:01:04.980
to pull the attention away from Tucson and put it, you know, well into Mexico? Just to remind the
03:01:11.760
audience, this is not, this is from the person claiming he knows who the kidnappers are, that he's
03:01:17.700
not the kidnapper, but he knows who they are. He saw them and that they've got her south of the border.
03:01:23.400
And by the way, there's now an update. There's another note, which I'm going to get to after Fitz
03:01:28.000
answers that question, Maureen. Yeah. Uh, it sounds to me as it's a term that I applied for the first time
03:01:33.460
in the Unabomb case, uh, uh, the term is contraindicator. It's against indications.
03:01:38.800
Whoever put that out there, the reason is obvious to, to misdirect the investigation,
03:01:44.260
go against the factors that are actually true. So again, it's something that the investigators
03:01:49.220
will have to look at, but you don't spend a whole lot of time. If it's that obvious that she was seen
03:01:54.100
in Mexico like that without other substantive information, I would call that a contraindicator,
03:01:59.780
misinformation, uh, designed to throw off the investigation, whether the person doing this
03:02:04.560
is the one who actually committed the crime or just playing some kind of a very sick game.
03:02:10.900
That's what Jonathan Gillum was saying yesterday that he, we were kind of scoffing at the, okay,
03:02:15.840
yet another note from somebody who desperately wants our attention. I know who the kidnapper is. And for
03:02:19.860
the low, low price of a Bitcoin and a half, I'll tell you. And he was saying, don't dismiss it too
03:02:24.780
quickly because it could be the kidnapper, the actual kidnapper looking to inject himself into
03:02:31.400
the case in another way. And he said some 20% of perpetrators will do that. Like they,
03:02:37.020
they want attention or they want, they want to inject themselves, or maybe they want to
03:02:41.940
throw the, throw the bone in a different direction fits to get people running down to Mexico when that's
03:02:48.900
the last place they should go to look for her. So for that reason, we should look at the Harvey notes
03:02:54.040
at least with one eye. We don't have to be like excited about them, but we should be looking at
03:02:58.540
them. And that brings me to the news that, uh, is just coming in. So let me just start with this.
03:03:04.860
Okay. This was literally last night, Harvey Levin on Sean Hannity promising the following SOT 68.
03:03:11.840
We decided that we're not going to say if he sent us any more letters, because if we say we got a letter
03:03:19.580
today and tomorrow, you ask me and I say, we got a letter tomorrow. And then the next day we say,
03:03:24.080
we're not going to talk about it. It tips off the kidnapper. We're essentially saying, well,
03:03:28.560
that's the day he gave us the information. We're just not going to say anything. He can,
03:03:32.680
if he wishes, give us the information. And as we promised, we will pass it on to the FBI. Then
03:03:38.080
there's a record, uh, that he supplied that information. Okay. And now today SOT 68 C within
03:03:46.340
like 15 hours of that watch TMZ obtained another ransom note today. Um, this is a highly sophisticated
03:03:56.280
demand involving a form of crypto, not Bitcoin. Um, now it is demanding roughly the same amount
03:04:06.980
as the demand letter we received, you know, shortly after the kidnapping, the $6 million demand.
03:04:13.780
It's not exactly that, but it's close to that. Um, the demand graphically describes the consequences
03:04:23.240
if the demand is not met. Um, it also involves the media, um, saying that the media essentially
03:04:32.300
becomes a go between a trigger, if you will, for getting this ransom money. Uh, we have been asked
03:04:39.500
not to be specific about any of that beyond what we've just said. We have forwarded this on to the
03:04:45.700
FBI and they are looking into it. But you can definitely listen for more on CNN and Fox when
03:04:52.840
Harvey makes his daily appearances later tonight, where he will be repeating all of the details.
03:04:57.500
Um, okay. Let's put to the side, the absurdity of we're not doing it ever again. Cause it's,
03:05:02.780
it's, but here I am again. Oh, something exciting. We can look back to me. Um, should we discuss the
03:05:08.860
substance of this ransom note, which does sound somewhat different from Mr. Give me a Bitcoin and
03:05:17.120
a half. In other words, it's, it's different in that it's pretending I think to be from the actual
03:05:26.280
kidnapper or, or it is potentially from the actual kidnapper. I have a write-up of what he said.
03:05:32.240
Another ransom note, highly sophisticated demand. I don't think we'd describe the other,
03:05:37.580
the middle guy. You know, he got the first, the first demands from the person who wanted
03:05:41.100
4 million and then 6 million. And that person sent two. And those both went to the same Bitcoin
03:05:45.280
account and neither was paid as far as we know. Then he got four more, I think four, three or four,
03:05:50.540
three, whatever, from the middle guy who said, I know who the kidnapper is. They have herself at the
03:05:55.240
border. Give me a Bitcoin and a half. And was pissed off that the FBI raised the reward from 50
03:06:00.040
to a hundred in the middle of his demands for crypto saying, I don't appreciate that. Whatever.
03:06:05.140
There's that guy. And now here's, here seems to be a third offeror who to me sounds like he's
03:06:12.300
pretending to be, or is the kidnapper. Uh, another ransom note, highly sophisticated demand involving
03:06:17.500
a crypto other than Bitcoin. Cause you know, there's like Dogecoin. There's other, it's not just
03:06:21.440
Bitcoin. If you're in the crypto market, the email demands a dollar amount similar to the $6 million
03:06:25.900
ransom demand in that earlier email we received days after the kidnapping. It graphically, you heard
03:06:31.500
him say, describes the consequences if the ransom isn't paid. I'm sure it's like, or she gets it.
03:06:35.860
The new ransom demand email includes a crypto number different from the Bitcoin one that he got
03:06:41.780
first round. We've forwarded to the FBI, um, pointing out that anybody who tries to scam the
03:06:47.740
Guthrie family is going to get it. They're playing with fire. The FBI is going to get you
03:06:50.760
and you're going to go to prison for a long time. Then says law enforcement sources
03:06:54.660
involved in the investigation, tell TMZ the FBI has contacted Mexican federal law enforcement to
03:07:01.580
spread the word to various police agencies. We told you, okay, so now he's moving on to the other
03:07:04.820
news. Actually, this was the, the discouraging stuff I wanted to mention. Um, they did not, they,
03:07:10.880
TMZ is reporting law enforcement sources say they did not get any leads from the gun stores
03:07:14.620
and also reporting that an FBI team working with Walmart and other retailers to find who may have
03:07:20.000
purchased some of the items the kidnapper was wearing. No breakthroughs so far quote. We are
03:07:25.700
shaking the trees says one law enforcement source to crack the case, but that's discouraging that no
03:07:31.520
luck at Walmart, no luck at the gun stores. Again, I want to know why they're sharing. Why is the FBI
03:07:37.520
sharing that guys? What, why are they telling that to TMZ? And also what do we make of this new
03:07:45.060
quote ransom demand? I got Jim shaking his head. He's got it. Three words, three words, proof of life.
03:07:53.800
Everything else is superfluous. Of course, they're going to do the worst things than Mrs. Guthrie.
03:07:57.320
Maureen and Will are shaking their heads. Yeah. Show us proof of life. We'll take you serious
03:08:00.760
and you better show it that she's still alive. And that's the only way you're going to get it.
03:08:04.440
Uh, and I'm, I'm, I like mincing words with people or at least assessing when they do it,
03:08:09.620
uh, shaking, you know, whatever the terminology is, Walmart, uh, you know, no lead so far or no
03:08:16.200
promising lead so far. It doesn't mean they aren't focused on, you know, a certain, uh, you know,
03:08:21.980
delivery that came in and certain backpacks that went out at certain times. And, uh, and same with
03:08:27.620
the gun shops. They're not going to put anything out there. If the FBI just says negative, I'm okay with
03:08:32.680
that. All it means is they don't, they don't have enough ready to put cuffs on a guy. And I've been
03:08:36.480
in, you know, task forces and putting, you know, PR, uh, you know, statements together for the media
03:08:41.380
and you, you don't want to lie, but you don't want to let, but don't forget the offender is
03:08:45.520
listening to this stuff too. I'm still not unconvinced that he doesn't listen to, to your
03:08:50.640
show, Megan, you have some good people on and you, you really hosted well. So he may be listening to
03:08:55.160
this and we're telling him, you know, what may be happening next, but we're also saying,
03:08:59.100
don't get too comfortable because the FBI doesn't necessarily, because they're saying something in
03:09:03.860
the negative doesn't mean something else has happened. So, uh, but show me proof of life for
03:09:08.380
these letters that coming into Harvey and, uh, and, and his, his other imaginary friends, and we'll see
03:09:13.640
what happens from there. And there's a reason they want, Jim, I know you got to run. Thank you for
03:09:18.620
being here to be continued tomorrow. Maureen and Will, let's keep going. Go ahead, Maureen.
03:09:22.200
And there's a reason they want the media to be the intermediary because they won't have law
03:09:27.460
enforcement scrutiny. I mean, if you're sending this, if you're sending this to, uh, the family
03:09:32.500
and law enforcement right away, or you want to, um, interact with a law enforcement agency,
03:09:37.860
you're going to have to suffer some, um, scrutiny. And the number one thing is exactly what, uh,
03:09:43.260
Fitz just said, which is proof of life. We haven't had any proof of life. We're all trying to be
03:09:50.560
optimistic, but it's getting more and more difficult. Show us something.
03:09:57.920
Yeah. And the, the, the family begged for that. Well, on the first go round when we had those
03:10:03.000
first two letters. I mean, I've seen my fair share of ransom demands. Um, and it's generally
03:10:09.560
going to be a family member who will be contacted in a kidnapping if it is indeed a kidnapping. And,
03:10:15.900
uh, the first thing is, I mean, Harvey's claim of this newest demand, other than obviously it being
03:10:21.800
for an inordinate amount of money, uh, is that it's sophisticated. Nothing in what he shared with us,
03:10:27.340
uh, would give me any indication of it being sophisticated whatsoever. Uh, very, a good
03:10:32.060
sophisticated approach will be to utilize a means of presenting obviously sufficient evidence.
03:10:38.120
And it is that proof of life as, uh, Maureen and Fitz both said, uh, with that ransom demand,
03:10:44.280
because then that isolates you amongst all the other claimants out there who are trying to
03:10:50.040
chance their arm to say, we're the people you need to listen to. We're the people you need to take
03:10:54.440
seriously. And this is our demand. And, and from that point forward, the whole thing, the email
03:11:00.920
address, the redirect doesn't go into TMZ. It goes directly to, uh, someone within the negotiation team,
03:11:08.120
whoever it might be. I'm sure within the bureau or in the private sector would be someone within
03:11:12.520
my team or me myself. And then we continue that communication and then we manage it from that
03:11:18.440
point forward. But until that proof of life comes in, none of these demands are worth a jot.
03:11:25.560
So the, the fact that Harvey says they graphically describe the consequences if demands are not met
03:11:32.760
suggests that they're threatening to hurt her, but he doesn't say a word about
03:11:42.840
So do you think, what do you think the FBI will is telling the Guthrie's right now about this?
03:11:48.280
Well, Maureen's probably better place than me to, to speak on the, the FBI's actions,
03:11:52.840
but from a standard negotiation team, uh, they wouldn't be sharing necessarily any more information
03:11:58.760
than we've had this demand. And this is our assessment of it. Um, in terms of any graphic description
03:12:05.400
of what they're going to do to Nancy or to the hostage, um, that's irrelevant. It doesn't mean
03:12:10.760
anything. It's, it's intended to put fear into, uh, whoever they're appealing to, to settle the
03:12:17.080
ransom. So, um, it doesn't have any credibility whatsoever, unless it came with that proof of
03:12:22.600
life. And it really is those keys really words. What do you think about that Maureen? Because after
03:12:28.360
the first demand that went to Harvey, that said 4 million by Thursday, 6 million, if you wait until
03:12:34.200
Monday, um, the family did come out three times, you know, they, they issued three video statements.
03:12:41.560
We watched them, the three of them, then Cameron by himself, then, then the three of them again.
03:12:46.840
And then even, I can't remember whether it's the Savannah solo video. I think it came out after,
03:12:50.880
but in any event, they put out multiple videos after it, trying to get proof of life,
03:12:55.520
you know, trying to get, like they said, we need to know that you have her. Clearly they didn't get
03:13:00.320
it and they didn't pay those demands and the deadlines came and went. And so do you think if
03:13:06.000
you're a law enforcement, if you're FBI right now advising the Guthrie's, do you say it looks like
03:13:11.040
somebody new? It's a different kind of crypto. It's a different account. You might consider doing
03:13:17.040
one of the videos. I would say, I mean, these predators have seen the, the, just the breaking of
03:13:24.880
Savannah Guthrie online and her siblings, but particularly her, especially that last video.
03:13:30.560
And so they're taking advantage of that, but without proof of life, this is, it's just a bunch
03:13:36.000
of puddles on the street. You, the only thing that's going to raise this above that and make
03:13:42.320
it worth mentioning is the proof of life. I could sit here and talk to you about the consequences of,
03:13:48.560
of, of someone finding the perpetrator in this week. We're going to do all these horrible things to
03:13:54.160
him, whatever. That means nothing to anybody, you know, they have to come up with proof of life
03:14:02.080
and they're not able to do that. And we're in the third.
03:14:05.040
But would you tell the, would you tell them to come out and demand it now? I mean, like,
03:14:08.560
because my thinking is this, if you, if you, if you took the first note seriously enough to put the
03:14:14.000
family in front of a camera and make them do what they did. I realized that one didn't pan out,
03:14:19.200
but like, if I'm thinking if you're FBI, you kind of have to take each one of these somewhat
03:14:24.560
seriously. And so wouldn't they just start the same playbook again saying, do you, do you want to do
03:14:32.400
it again? I don't think it's a great idea to put the family through this. I certainly wouldn't read
03:14:36.820
all the graphic details to the family, especially if it's from someone that isn't offering anything other
03:14:42.260
than a word, but you know, words. I, I just, I just won't. I mean, there's two, the stakes are too
03:14:49.700
high. There's too much money involved. There's too many people involved. So many of these things don't,
03:14:55.300
don't go together. It's like a bunch of people trying to cram square pegs into a round hole. It,
03:15:02.260
you know, it's, it's just a game of, of cruelty and rope a dope for this family. And, and no,
03:15:10.420
I wouldn't do it. I wish Harvey Levin would just stop platforming these people. Just give it to the
03:15:16.120
FBI and forget about it because half, half of what they're doing. Interesting. Yeah. Stop,
03:15:22.500
you know, just, you're saying the Harvey, Harvey should give whatever he gets to the FBI and stop
03:15:30.360
making a public spectacle of it because that's exactly what these attention seekers want.
03:15:41.500
Yeah, totally. I mean, he's, he's injecting himself unnecessarily into this whole situation.
03:15:47.580
He, he should be demonstrating some politesse and some discretion and sensitivity to the family,
03:15:54.260
supporting and managing a family during an extortion attempt or a kidnapping, or even a missing
03:16:00.240
person or a reduction is absolutely critical. You've got to keep them as balanced as possible
03:16:06.480
because they're on a very, very thin line emotionally in trying to manage it because it's something
03:16:11.280
entirely alien to them. So when you have a character from TMZ that is broadcasting regularly saying,
03:16:20.480
oh, we're very important. We've received this amazing sort of a Branson demand, which,
03:16:25.300
you know, Maureen and I and anybody in our world knows has zero substance until it's supported by a
03:16:31.040
proof of life. And the first thing is, is that there are certain things in that negotiation process,
03:16:36.280
Megan, that you don't necessarily want the family to need to know. You don't lie to them.
03:16:41.540
And lying is the worst thing and the last thing you should ever do. But it's so important that you
03:16:47.220
withhold certain information, which is unnecessary for them to know. So it could be the graphic content of
03:16:53.420
the repercussions or, or what could possibly happen, you know, and we try and keep that as quiet as
03:16:58.880
possible. But the key thing is to be as brutally hard and with the kidnappers as well. And to say,
03:17:06.920
oh, the potential kidnappers and say, if you have her, we don't have any communication with you.
03:17:13.220
We are going to discount you unless you can provide us with proof of life. And unless you provide that
03:17:17.540
proof of life, you are just white noise. And what difference does the highly
03:17:22.980
sophisticated make? What difference does that make? Are you trying to say that unsophisticated
03:17:27.860
people don't cause great harm to others? Everyone's capable of it. Not everyone, but a lot of different
03:17:33.840
people. Right. And I don't even know if that makes it more or less likely it's the actual kidnappers,
03:17:40.120
because I'm not sure we think that guy in the front porch was highly sophisticated.
03:17:43.360
No. But that's an interesting, see, I mean, I will say this, Harvey's not exactly injecting
03:17:49.380
himself. Whoever's sending him the notes is injecting him into it. But I also think to me,
03:17:55.220
he's been milking it, which brings a distaste. Yeah. Like I actually, I wouldn't be as hard on him
03:18:01.940
as if, if he came up and said, this has happened, let me report to you what it is. And now I'm moving
03:18:07.360
on. I don't know, as a media person, you, you know, we're news people. And so like, that's our first
03:18:12.980
order of business is to report the news. It would be very hard to just not tell anybody you had this.
03:18:19.860
I understand the position he's in there. I think it's like then seeing him do the press tour after
03:18:25.800
each one of these, where he's being too cute by half. Like it said this, but I'm not going to go
03:18:30.560
further than that. And I'm going to lift the dress up a little, but not all the way. And then let me
03:18:34.400
titillate over on CNN and I want to do it on Fox and I'm going to go back on TMZ and do it. And,
03:18:39.000
and then you just wind up feeling like this is a guy in the midst of a PR campaign and TMZ has had
03:18:44.760
a rough little go of it because they were caught laughing when Charlie Kirk was assassinated.
03:18:49.880
You could hear the laughter and people got very angry with them to the point where they did a
03:18:56.060
follow-up report saying that they weren't laughing about Charlie's murder. It was a car chase or
03:19:01.540
something that they were watching that led to the cries you heard in the newsroom. And many people
03:19:08.060
questioned that because they think TMZ leans left. Harvey was just on camera arguing bitterly
03:19:15.380
with Mark Garagos about whether Don Lemon should have been charged. Harvey was very much on Don Lemon's
03:19:22.100
side. And so to me, it's no accident. Like he keeps going on Fox. Like here I am. I'm the savior.
03:19:28.360
I've got, it's like, he's rebuilding. He hopes, I think with a right-leaning audience.
03:19:34.340
So it just, it has a distasteful feel to it. And I have nothing against Harvey whatsoever. I just,
03:19:39.440
it's too much. Like he's, you should not look like you are like wanting to make it about you
03:19:45.540
more than you have to while the family is suffering. That's my own.
03:19:50.720
It's salacious. It's salacious. But Megan, I wanted to pick up on something a little earlier
03:19:55.620
you mentioned, which was about the level of professionalism by the individuals at the door.
03:20:01.320
Now it's not uncommon if there were, if there is a, if it is indeed a kidnapping and let's
03:20:08.040
disassociate from all the nonsense letters that Harvey's been receiving, but let's take it in
03:20:12.700
isolation. If Nancy was kidnapped, it's not unusual. And I've dealt with these groups before where you'll
03:20:19.960
have a low level sort of more basic criminals that will affect the actual snatch or who will do the
03:20:26.580
abduction. And they do it on behalf of whoever is going to be then coordinating the ransom demands and
03:20:32.900
the exchange, obviously later down the line. So although they were pretty, you know, slipshod,
03:20:39.500
uh, the guy at the front door with the gun hanging outside of waistband, um, that doesn't mean that
03:20:44.820
they weren't necessarily there on behalf of someone else. I agree. I know. And like, as much as we say
03:20:52.040
he didn't look sophisticated, cause he didn't to me, he got her. He's gotten away with it for
03:20:57.580
two and a half weeks now, notwithstanding the report that there are 400 law enforcement officers on this.
03:21:04.180
According to TMZ, the leads at Walmart are dead for now. The leads of the gun stores,
03:21:09.500
I've gone nowhere so far. No DNA has been left behind. That's been useful in any way. No
03:21:15.940
fingerprints, no nothing. I mean, right now it looks like Nancy Guthrie has disappeared without
03:21:21.800
a trace, Maureen. It does. But I'm, you know, this, this new IP thing that came out with the
03:21:26.860
person looking at her address and everything, that's going to be a new, um, a whole new line
03:21:31.300
of inquiry in a totally different area. If that IP address is in fact in a different region,
03:21:35.980
then the, the Walmart, um, um, lead may, or the Walmart inquiry may blow up again. Meaning
03:21:43.240
whoever ordered the stuff came from this other area, as opposed to right where she is. They're
03:21:49.800
looking for a number of things and they have, they obviously have all the, um, supply chain
03:21:55.040
information on those backpacks, where they went and to whom they're trying to couple it up. They're,
03:22:00.180
they're merging and purging their searches with all the information, all the items they think may have
03:22:05.680
been purchased by Walmart and then narrowing it down as necessary and seeing if, if anyone ordered
03:22:11.300
three or four things at different times. And so it's a lot of that, even though, even though it's
03:22:17.660
hasn't come up, it hasn't been fruitful yet. I think now that there's a new location involved,
03:22:22.880
hopefully with that new IP address, um, that could come back to life and help. I hope.
03:22:29.580
And, and that the, I'm just looking back at the report. Yeah. It says Google trends shows there
03:22:37.580
was one search for Guthrie's address between June 21st and June 28th by someone in Arizona. So they
03:22:45.360
have, they, they already have either the general address of the person or probably you guys tell me
03:22:54.220
by the time they're releasing this to us, they, they probably know exactly who searched for it.
03:22:59.620
Do they know what would, what would you think? Yes, I do. I think they would absolutely know that.
03:23:03.840
Yeah. And hopefully when you look at something like that, like what's the location, the next step is
03:23:09.080
going to be what phones are tied to that location. Let's geofence it for, you know, the past three
03:23:13.780
weeks or four weeks, or let's, let's also do a geofence on that particular day and see who was in that
03:23:20.240
house, what phones were in that house. And let's start looking for those phones around
03:23:24.180
January 11th, anywhere in that area around that circle K or any place around there. And because
03:23:29.520
they may turn them off or they may render their phones, um, unable to ping for in different ways
03:23:35.920
when they get close to the house, but they probably didn't do it. People can't live with
03:23:40.600
their phones more than two miles, you know, they, they turn them back on. I mean, the, the,
03:23:46.080
the accuracy and, you know, Maureen's absolutely right in terms of the geofence, the accuracy
03:23:50.580
will be very much based on the cell site positions. And if there are sufficient cell
03:23:56.120
site positions around there and cell sites, then they can get the accuracy really down to about
03:24:02.940
sort of five, 10 feet, which is sufficient to be able to determine how many phones were in
03:24:07.440
proximity, obviously to Nancy and her cell phone. Um, but yeah, the biggest challenge, uh, will be,
03:24:14.240
and I think, I hope it leads to something that the IP addresses for those various different searches
03:24:19.180
for the images, uh, for the address itself, they all match up. That's, that's going to be key.
03:24:24.980
Well, I'm relieved to hear it doesn't end with, you know, if the person had used a VPN,
03:24:29.320
for example, it could be like coming from Brazil. You know, I mean, it sounds like, uh, possibly if,
03:24:35.260
if it's like from Arizona, possibly the person did not mask themselves at all when they did the
03:24:39.080
search. Um, well, um, well, God, I was just going to ask you something important. Oh, oh, I know.
03:24:44.760
So will it must be said, this is good news for Tomas and the other family members, because they
03:24:55.980
would certainly not need to go searching for Nancy Guthrie's address and would have a ballpark idea
03:25:02.000
of Savannah's salary too. Like the family would not need to search where Nancy lived. This,
03:25:07.300
this is support if it's related and it, you know, we don't know for sure, but if it's related,
03:25:12.020
this is support for the, you know, Savannah stalker or Nancy stalker, Nancy disgruntled employee.
03:25:20.280
I don't know an employee. Again, if there's an answer, a landscaper or whomever, they would know
03:25:24.740
where Nancy lives. So, but if this thing is related, this is support for, I guess the most likely
03:25:29.760
Lane is the stalker of Savannah Lane. Yeah, one would, will hope. I mean, for their sake. Um,
03:25:37.020
however, that is, unless they're collaborative to it, if there are actors working on behalf of
03:25:42.300
Tomas or the family or someone else, uh, that is close to Nancy, then they may very well have
03:25:47.640
double checked that information may have done their own searches. I would doubt unlike a professional
03:25:52.800
outfit that they would have run sort of clean, what we call clean protocols. So like Maureen was saying
03:25:58.260
about going into the location with their own cell phones, you know, people don't want to be parted
03:26:04.000
from their cell phones. More is absolutely right on that. Um, but a, a professional outfit wouldn't
03:26:09.480
go anywhere with any ID on them, anything that could identify them, their cell phone technology wise,
03:26:14.760
you know, even on the vehicle, any GPS that might be there again, removed. But, um, yes,
03:26:20.700
one would hope it's not connected to the family, but I don't think we, unlike the sheriff,
03:26:23.980
my jury's still out. Mine too. Yeah. Yeah. Mine too. Well, my mind is open. My mind is open to
03:26:31.620
whatever they come up with. Yeah. Me too. I mean, the one thing I'm convinced of, and it sounds like
03:26:38.240
the sheriff is, is with me there. And I think you guys agree is there's no way they accidentally
03:26:42.680
stumbled upon Nancy Guthrie, Savannah's mom. That didn't happen. I agree with him targeted,
03:26:48.200
either targeted because they wanted to get rid of her or targeted because they wanted to steal her
03:26:52.520
and hijack the family for a bunch of millions, but she was chosen for a reason, either a sick and
03:27:00.920
tired family member or somebody who wanted to inherit or somebody who wanted to extort millions of
03:27:08.000
dollars out of the Guthrie's. So, um, I feel like the circle's getting smaller. It's getting a little
03:27:13.980
smaller by the second, again, undermining burglary. So that reporter really seems to have gotten it
03:27:19.400
wrong, at least so it seems today. All right. That's all we're going to do today. That was a
03:27:23.020
lot. Every day we get together, it seems like something happens and the investigation takes
03:27:26.720
another turn. Thank you for helping us navigate it. You too. We appreciate it. Well, Maureen,
03:27:31.500
see tomorrow. I'm sure. Thank you. Okay. And thanks to all of you. Here we are four hours later,
03:27:36.740
um, two hours. Did we do a show on, on Epstein? I think we did. Uh, I vaguely recall it. It happened
03:27:42.240
many hours ago. Um, we're going to go have some lunch. It's almost dinnertime now. And, uh, thank you so
03:27:47.320
much to all of you for listening and making the show possible. I'm so grateful to all of you. I
03:27:51.840
love getting your notes, uh, and your theories of the case. You can keep them coming. Uh, email me
03:27:56.960
Megan at megankelly.com. And you can also make comments on our social media. I do go and read
03:28:02.780
them. And I, I love hearing from you guys. I love hearing your thoughts on the whole case. You've been
03:28:07.940
very smart and very helpful as always. Lots of love. We'll talk tomorrow.
03:28:12.320
Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.