The Megyn Kelly Show - What the Epstein Files REVEAL About Blackmail and Connections, and Nancy Guthrie Latest, with Jashinsky, Grim, Shellenberger, and More ｜ Ep. 1255

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00:00:30.360 ZepBound. 0.96

00:00:31.240 Okay, remember A is for asking, the questions that matter to me.

00:00:35.640 Andrea, the doctor will see you now.

00:00:38.220 B is for beginning the conversation.

00:00:41.260 Hey, Andrea, good to see you.

00:00:43.100 So, what brings you in today?

00:00:45.220 C is for choosing which treatment is right for me.

00:00:48.880 And Z is for ZepBound. 1.00

00:00:50.940 And I'm ready to ask.

00:00:53.020 Ask a doctor about ZepBound QuickPen.

00:00:55.120 Get your savings card at ZepBound.ca.

00:00:57.560 Exclusions and exceptions may apply.

00:00:59.060 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:01:12.520 Hey, everyone.

00:01:13.380 I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:01:14.200 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:01:15.600 We have a big extended show today.

00:01:17.660 We're going to have a full breakdown of the latest in the Nancy Guthrie case coming up in two hours.

00:01:23.120 But we are devoting the live portion, the first two hours of our live portion, to the Epstein files.

00:01:29.540 There's been so much happening as a result of these documents that were released a few weeks back.

00:01:36.220 Attorney General Pam Bondi announced over the weekend, just this past weekend, that the Department of Justice has made public, quote,

00:01:41.240 all files required by the Epstein Files Transparency Act, which President Trump signed into law just a few months ago on November 19th.

00:01:49.620 There have been questions about whether that's true.

00:01:51.520 She says it is.

00:01:52.320 In total, there are more than 3.5 million pages of documents, 2,000 videos, and 180,000 images in the latest dump.

00:02:04.120 You can search them for yourself on justice.gov slash Epstein, which we've been doing here as a team for the past week.

00:02:11.300 Basically, every celebrity or public figure you can think of comes up in this search.

00:02:17.680 And you have to be very careful, very careful about it, because what the FBI did originally, or what the DOJ did when they released this,

00:02:24.340 was they released a whole list of complaints received by the FBI about just anybody. 0.93

00:02:29.580 So, like, anybody who could have called up during the Trump presidency and been like, Trump raped me. 0.93

00:02:35.180 And they would put that down.

00:02:36.380 It would be listed in the FBI database of complaints about various people.

00:02:43.120 You'd have to say it would happen at Epstein's mansion or what have you.

00:02:46.900 And it'd be in there.

00:02:48.240 And they released that like it was real.

00:02:50.340 And people were going with it all over the Internet.

00:02:52.680 It was like, okay, we've really gone too far on releasing every document, but that's what the law required.

00:03:00.040 That's what they did.

00:03:00.800 And, you know, there are irresponsible people who took all of those complaints like they were real,

00:03:06.000 even the ones that said, not credible, not credible, not credible, not credible.

00:03:11.240 And that's unfortunate.

00:03:12.400 But there is a lot of very interesting stuff in here.

00:03:15.040 As I say, it's going to take years to go through all of this.

00:03:18.020 We could still be getting major revelations for months, and we will follow up when and if we do.

00:03:23.540 But from what we have seen so far, these documents do provide a window into the global elite

00:03:29.100 and how they behave when they think no one's watching.

00:03:33.020 It's really not great.

00:03:34.260 It's not great at all.

00:03:37.560 Here's the Daily Podcast last week.

00:03:40.360 Do these new documents shed any light on the question of whether or not Jeffrey Epstein ran a pedophilic ring

00:03:49.000 that trafficked underage girls to those around him?

00:03:53.160 In short, the answer is no.

00:03:56.780 Basically, the 14 and 15 and 16-year-old girls that we've heard about were largely recruited for him.

00:04:02.740 But what's important to understand, again, the first time he went to jail in the mid-late 2000s,

00:04:08.560 it's on charges that he is soliciting underage girls to get massages.

00:04:12.240 And when he gets out of jail, he appears to change tactics.

00:04:16.280 He seems to decide he's going to be more careful about the law.

00:04:20.340 What we see is a form of trafficking after he gets out of prison that relies mostly on women who were a bit older,

00:04:28.200 18 and 19-year-old women from Eastern Europe than the victims we know about from before he died.

00:04:34.340 I mean, they were a bit older, but they were still equally vulnerable in a different way with a different legal definition.

00:04:40.300 All right.

00:04:40.900 So that's interesting.

00:04:41.800 That was the New York Times doing its deep dive in a podcast that I've actually found very helpful.

00:04:46.720 And they're saying there's just no evidence in here of a pedophile ring.

00:04:50.840 And they point out in that same podcast that there was even a prosecution memo

00:04:57.040 that was contained in the latest batch of documents where the prosecutor said what they looked at

00:05:02.860 and what they did not find was evidence of a pedophile ring, though they did look.

00:05:08.500 And they did find 14-, 15-, and 16-year-old girls that were recruited for Epstein,

00:05:15.140 not for a web of friends, but for Epstein, prior to his initial plea deal.

00:05:23.320 Okay.

00:05:24.040 Prior to the initial plea deal that he struck in 2008 when Dershowitz was his lawyer.

00:05:28.300 So he was abusing these young teenage girls back then.

00:05:35.960 And that's what he struck the plea deal for.

00:05:37.980 That's what became so controversial because then in 2018, the Miami Herald dropped its reporting saying

00:05:42.800 there were dozens of girls and he only had to answer for like two.

00:05:48.440 Two, thanks to Allen, Allen did what, you know, defense lawyers are supposed to do.

00:05:53.600 It's not his fault.

00:05:54.560 It's Epstein's fault.

00:05:55.360 And it's the prosecution's fault for agreeing to it without consulting the victims, by the way,

00:05:59.240 which became a huge deal.

00:06:00.820 But it does appear, I haven't gone through all the documents,

00:06:03.980 but it does appear from the New York Times reporting that after his plea deal,

00:06:08.440 Epstein got smarter and started sticking to girls who were of age

00:06:14.220 and mostly Russians or Eastern Europeans.

00:06:18.260 And I have to tell you, it's a very interesting question because

00:06:21.280 obviously that's a totally different kettle of fish than a 14-year-old girl 1.00

00:06:25.900 because now you're an adult in the eyes of the law.

00:06:30.780 And there's no question of consent, really.

00:06:33.140 I mean, you're capable of consenting when you are 19 years old,

00:06:37.580 but you are still capable of being sex trafficked.

00:06:41.300 I mean, the whole case against P. Diddy revolved around whether he had sex trafficked Cassie 0.94

00:06:48.680 and other of his girlfriends by strong-arming them into sex with these sex workers. 0.97

00:06:58.540 Ultimately, the jury did not find him guilty of that.

00:07:01.520 But we had a whole prosecution, the implicit acceptance of which was it can be done to an adult woman 0.70

00:07:12.420 who's even in a love relationship with the defendant.

00:07:15.960 I mean, it can be done.

00:07:17.180 So it's not really an answer to whether Jeffrey Epstein was a sex trafficker

00:07:23.640 to say all of his alleged victims were of age when he was having whatever relationship he was having with them.

00:07:33.760 It's a more complex issue than that legally.

00:07:36.620 But I do think we need to get into this with that right mindset.

00:07:40.660 The young teen thing, according to the New York Times,

00:07:44.440 which has had a whole team going through all these documents,

00:07:46.860 they say appears to have stopped after he got arrested and struck that initial plea deal in 08.

00:07:53.540 Then he goes forward with the of-age Russians and Eastern Europeans. 0.98

00:07:57.960 And now there is a question about whether they were serially sex trafficked

00:08:02.120 by Epstein to himself and to his friends.

00:08:05.460 And I have to say there's a lot of evidence of that in there.

00:08:08.400 Now, were they all sex trafficked victims or were some just gold diggers?

00:08:12.940 That's also possible.

00:08:14.160 I mean, the difference between a gold digger and a sex trafficking victim is force, coercion.

00:08:23.160 A gold digger is not there by coercion.

00:08:26.280 She wants his dough, so she gives it up. 0.69

00:08:30.100 I know a lot of women who make that same choice. 1.00

00:08:33.360 I've known throughout my adult life a lot of women who decide to make that same choice. 0.99

00:08:38.100 They don't marry for love.

00:08:39.480 They marry for dough.

00:08:41.100 Or they just want to be with the richest guy they can find.

00:08:43.760 And they don't really care whether he loves them or not.

00:08:48.400 They give it up because they want to be taken care of.

00:08:51.280 All right?

00:08:51.500 Now, that's—you might call it a gold digger.

00:08:53.980 You might call it whatever, a deal.

00:08:57.320 That's an adult woman's choice. 1.00

00:08:59.840 Wouldn't be my choice, but it's an adult woman's choice. 1.00

00:09:02.340 But when you find an adult woman, 18 or above, and you threaten her that if she doesn't go with your friend, let's say Prince Andrew, just to pick a name out of the air, you're going to punish her.

00:09:17.480 You're going to cost her job opportunities.

00:09:19.120 You're going to publicly humiliate her. 0.98

00:09:20.780 You could possibly release a naked tape of her. 1.00

00:09:23.840 Now you're talking coercion, and the person is not necessarily there of her own free will. 0.92

00:09:30.300 And that could convert you into a sex trafficker. 0.99

00:09:33.740 And those are the allegations against Diddy, remember?

00:09:36.680 It was like, when Cassie wants to be with you, there's some evidence she wanted to participate in these freak-offs.

00:09:42.940 But then there's a lot of evidence that she no longer did.

00:09:45.400 Either during the freak-off itself, you know, she ran out of the will to do it, and from that point forward, when you beat her in the back room to make her go back out there, or, you know, over a period of years, it no longer became appealing to her, force and coercion was used, which is why that became a sex trafficking case.

00:10:05.840 The jury didn't buy it.

00:10:07.200 They said, eh, she got a lot of—I think they, frankly, put her more in the field of the gold digger.

00:10:12.960 Not a nice term, but you know what I'm saying.

00:10:15.400 And so this, to me, what these documents are showing so far is, okay, not a pedophile ring, but a sex trafficker, an alleged sex trafficker, and unlike with the 14- and 15-year-olds who he was getting for himself to perform these X-rated massages on himself with the so-called happy ending.

00:10:36.600 And I know, as I told you, I have a source who's very well-connected in this case, who is very well-connected to Epstein, was.

00:10:42.940 And this source has told me that Epstein used to get the young girls to go find the next young girl, and he would pay them.

00:10:52.880 And it would always be girls who were from the wrong side of the tracks, who needed money, and they would do it. 1.00

00:10:59.600 He wasn't having sex with them. 0.88

00:11:01.060 He was, you know, getting a whatever. 1.00

00:11:02.880 They were getting him to finish off with their hand or sometimes oral sex. 0.99

00:11:09.120 And that was his MO, if you will, in the first go-around. 0.99

00:11:14.280 And then his MO, when he got more connected, when he became richer, was focused more on these other older girls and on this enormous circle of influence that he had been building.

00:11:25.340 And I don't know if there's ever been somebody as well-connected as Jeffrey Epstein, from Prince Andrew to President Bill Clinton, Donald Trump when he was still a young playboy businessman.

00:11:35.760 I mean, thank God for Donald Trump, he ended all relationship with Jeffrey Epstein very, very early on in Epstein's, you know, rise to fame and wealth.

00:11:45.480 It was like around 2005, I think it was.

00:11:47.460 And so there's almost nothing, there are some references to Trump, but like not involving all that stuff that happened, you know, from leading up to 2008 and thereafter.

00:11:58.500 Trump's really not in here on that stuff.

00:12:01.460 There's weird other allegations, like I said, about the FBI document.

00:12:05.400 But this is not what I've seen about Donald Trump.

00:12:08.060 It is about tons of rich men in America and overseas, tons, who not only wanted Epstein's advice financially, they wanted his little love letters like Lauren Summers when he was, you know, the president of Harvard, on like how to get the girl to call him back.

00:12:27.060 Remember, the woman he was having the affair with, wasn't sure she liked him.

00:12:31.180 There's tons of people like that.

00:12:32.440 In that same New York Times podcast on The Daily, they were pointing out Deepak Chopra, Deepak Chopra was having this intense back and forth with Epstein and Deepak said to Jeffrey Epstein, quote, how can I be sure that I'm eternal?

00:12:47.340 Oh, my God.

00:12:49.060 People go to that guy as though he's a guru with all sorts of deep life advice, the meaning of life and so on.

00:12:56.560 And he was getting it from Jeffrey Epstein.

00:12:58.640 Oh, my God. 1.00

00:13:00.760 Holy shit. 1.00

00:13:01.620 That's a big reveal. 1.00

00:13:05.580 Wow.

00:13:06.480 They also talk about Prince Andrew, who we'll get to in a second, where he opens up.

00:13:10.760 This is the New York Times about the restraints of royal life and how difficult it can be to be a royal.

00:13:16.260 Wow.

00:13:17.600 And the person he's opening up to is not his therapist or a family member.

00:13:21.860 It is Jeffrey Epstein.

00:13:23.960 In another email quoting here from The Times, Epstein is arranging for Prince Andrew to meet a woman.

00:13:29.640 And he tells Andrew, she's 26, Russian, clever, beautiful, trustworthy.

00:13:35.520 And Andrew responds, sounding like a high school boy with a crush.

00:13:39.680 What have you told her about me?

00:13:41.520 Have you given her my email?

00:13:42.960 Well, it's amazing.

00:13:45.740 It is amazing, like, the amount of connections he had.

00:13:48.440 And lots of these people have been lying about how close they were to Jeffrey Epstein.

00:13:54.420 Most of them, I would venture to say, have been lying or at least downplaying their relationship with him, which I understand, given how toxic that name is now.

00:14:04.480 But it really doesn't do anybody any good, especially, I mean, like, some of the people lied and we're going to get to them by name. 0.63

00:14:11.400 Knowing that these files were about to come out, like, how dumb is that? 0.99

00:14:14.500 It's one thing to be a liar, but like a dumb liar, that's a bad combo, bud. 1.00

00:14:18.600 I mean, a really bad combo. 1.00

00:14:19.980 And they all have billions.

00:14:22.220 Unlike you and me, they have billions.

00:14:25.120 And so they've had a lifetime of getting away with it and of thinking they can behave with impunity.

00:14:31.700 And that in large part is what this story is about.

00:14:35.420 So no pedophile ring that we know of.

00:14:39.140 No direct indication of a blackmail operation either that we know of.

00:14:43.420 We'll talk about whether there is circumstantial evidence of it.

00:14:46.260 And no smoking gun either, by the way, that he was employed directly by an intelligence agency.

00:14:50.400 Although, that's not what B.B. Netanyahu says.

00:14:55.560 He says he was Israeli intelligence and worked for Ehud Barak.

00:14:59.960 So, may not be in the documents, but it is in B.B. Netanyahu's hand, the truth.

00:15:06.620 But there is still a great mystery about how he became so rich.

00:15:11.780 Non-college graduate from Coney Island, no family connections, and super close, ultimately, to the likes of Bill Clinton.

00:15:19.340 And not just any Bill Clinton.

00:15:21.560 The immediate post-president presidency, Bill Clinton.

00:15:26.380 2001 to 2004 was when Bill Clinton kept going on his jet 17 times.

00:15:32.320 I mean, this is the height of Bill Clinton's post-presidential power.

00:15:36.100 And those two were BFFs.

00:15:38.560 It's amazing.

00:15:40.140 And not to mention the years with Donald Trump, as I said.

00:15:42.180 How he stayed so close, Epstein did, to the likes of Bill Gates, who really just comes off so poorly in all this, Steve Bannon, and as I say, Prince Andrew, even after he had to register as a sex offender for one crime that was solicitation of a minor for prostitution, which is not a thing.

00:16:03.060 A minor cannot be a prostitute. 0.50

00:16:06.860 They can only be a victim of a perverted older man, which is absolutely what Jeffrey Epstein was. 0.96

00:16:13.000 The fallout for just being associated with Epstein has been swift for some.

00:16:16.760 I mean, I don't know.

00:16:17.440 Has it been swift?

00:16:18.160 It's been a long time coming, I would say.

00:16:21.680 Former Obama White House counsel, Catherine Rumler, she resigned from her role as Goldman Sachs' top lawyer.

00:16:29.900 We told you about—we were the ones who broke that news.

00:16:32.360 Do you remember right here on this show when I told you about the news about how tight Steve Bannon had been to Jeffrey Epstein, who's a friend of mine?

00:16:42.360 It brought me no joy to report that news, but I did it because it's my job, and we named, for the first time right here on The Megyn Kelly Show, former Obama White House counsel, Catherine Rumler, as a close confidant of Jeffrey Epstein, and we saw her all over his correspondence after having seen her in a tape.

00:17:04.640 We saw her or heard her in an audio tape that we were provided.

00:17:09.400 Remember a couple years ago when I said, this year, I think you're going to hear from Jeffrey Epstein directly?

00:17:15.180 And then I later told you it was on tape.

00:17:17.220 Tapes exist out there.

00:17:18.540 Turns out Steve Bannon has 15 hours of them.

00:17:22.060 15 hours of them.

00:17:23.060 That's how he is defending his behavior with Epstein, saying it was all as part of his role as a filmmaker, which he actually is,

00:17:31.480 and a journalist trying to get all this tape, which he says is going to result in a film to be released within the next year.

00:17:39.040 In any event, she was very tight with him.

00:17:41.500 If you read any of this correspondence, you'll see that she loved Jeffrey Epstein.

00:17:45.260 And, okay, you should come out and say we were friends. 0.98

00:17:47.600 I didn't know he was a dirtbag.

00:17:48.500 It was hard because she was super friendly with him post the Miami Herald investigation, and she couldn't say that.

00:17:55.320 I guess if I were Catherine, I would have said, let me be honest.

00:17:59.760 I didn't believe that he was some mass pedophile or sex trafficker.

00:18:05.420 I didn't believe it.

00:18:06.600 I knew he had pleaded out these two ultimately minor counts in 2008. 0.99

00:18:11.400 Then I saw the Miami Herald thing, and I thought it was an unfair hit piece by a fucking lunatic, Julie Brown, who's a hard leftist. 1.00

00:18:19.040 And I didn't—she's a lunatic because she's so partisan. 1.00

00:18:24.280 That's why I say that. 1.00

00:18:25.240 She's a decent reporter, but she's just so nasty. 1.00

00:18:28.880 She'll only go on these left-wing podcasts. 0.70

00:18:30.600 She won't talk to a conservative audience and let her reporting be tested or herself be tested, which is very undermining.

00:18:37.280 Anyway, maybe that's what Rumler thought.

00:18:39.560 I don't trust Julie K. Brown.

00:18:41.820 I don't believe in her.

00:18:43.820 I actually have known Jeffrey for a long time, and I believe in him.

00:18:46.540 Oh, my God, I was so wrong.

00:18:47.720 That would be a way out, but instead all these people downplay or they deny or they go underground.

00:18:52.660 Well, she's caught red-handed now that we've seen the papers, and she's out of her job as the Goldman Sachs top lawyer because it's all in black and white now.

00:19:03.780 The prominent CEO in charge of Dubai's ports.

00:19:07.660 This guy's very well-known apparently.

00:19:09.460 He's got tons of dough.

00:19:10.320 He lost his job after the file showed he emailed Epstein about women.

00:19:13.200 And, I mean, that underplays what's in the files about him.

00:19:18.020 He didn't just email Epstein about women.

00:19:20.400 He's talking about dreaming about the Russian woman again and, like, the age of the woman.

00:19:26.040 We'll get into it.

00:19:26.600 And Casey Wasserman, the chairman of the 2028 Olympics in Los Angeles, is now facing calls to step down after having already announced he's going to sell his agency in the wake of a scandal, this scandal involving his name in the Epstein files, for having flirtatious emails with Epstein's partner in crime, Ghislaine Maxwell, all the way back in 2003.

00:19:46.360 That's ridiculous.

00:19:48.220 I don't, like, I, let's do something more. 0.91

00:19:50.600 I don't get that controversy.

00:19:51.820 In 2003, he was supposed to car-nack his way through to understanding when nobody knew back then that Jeffrey Epstein was a sex trafficker and Ghislaine Maxwell helped him and actually did some bad things herself.

00:20:02.040 Like, he was supposed to know that?

00:20:02.980 I don't, that's a weird one.

00:20:04.440 There's a lot of weird ones.

00:20:06.420 Part of this thing feels Salem witch-hunting.

00:20:09.000 And we don't want to go there, okay?

00:20:10.440 We already made that mistake the original time in Salem, and then again in the Me Too era, like, can we not, like, just assume everybody's a pedophile just because their name might show up in the Epstein files, okay?

00:20:23.360 Then let's not presume every single one of these women who says she's a victim is a woman who's been a victim either.

00:20:29.860 Like, normally those tests, claims have to be tested in law, and the vast majority of them have not been.

00:20:35.740 Now, in the women's defense, he's dead, so it's kind of hard.

00:20:40.440 But let's be clear.

00:20:43.380 The women should have to be identified, in my view. 1.00

00:20:45.780 I don't agree with the anonymity of this release.

00:20:48.100 They blacked out all the women's names.

00:20:49.580 Okay, so we just have to accept victim, but we get to hear the guys' names, but not the women.

00:20:54.320 That's not fair.

00:20:55.940 That's basic due process being denied to the men whose names are in here.

00:21:00.360 In any event, one thing's clear.

00:21:02.100 President Trump says he's been exonerated and that it's the Clintons who have been wrapped up further in the scandal, and he's not wrong.

00:21:10.780 I have nothing to hide.

00:21:12.820 I've been exonerated.

00:21:14.000 I have nothing to do with Jeffrey Epstein.

00:21:16.240 They went in hoping that they'd find it and found just the opposite.

00:21:19.320 I've been totally exonerated.

00:21:20.680 In fact, Jeffrey Epstein was fighting that I don't get elected with some author.

00:21:26.280 A sleazebag, by the way. 0.97

00:21:28.160 And I've been totally exonerated.

00:21:30.060 No, no.

00:21:30.560 They're getting pulled in, and that's their problem.

00:21:33.320 I don't know.

00:21:33.600 They're going to have to see what happens.

00:21:34.720 But I watched her in Munich, and she seriously has Trump derangement syndrome. 0.99

00:21:40.200 Well, I mean, how is he wrong?

00:21:43.060 But perhaps none of these global elites and celebrities have much to worry about beyond reputational damage,

00:21:47.860 because Deputy Attorney Todd Blanche signaled earlier this month no further prosecutions are coming.

00:21:54.240 I can't talk about any investigations, but I will say the following, which is that in July,

00:21:58.680 the Department of Justice said that we had reviewed the files, the, quote, Epstein files,

00:22:03.260 and there was nothing in there that allowed us to prosecute anybody.

00:22:07.240 We then released over three and a half million pieces of paper, which the entire world can look at now and see if we got it wrong.

00:22:15.400 And so it's not performative, and I respectfully disagree with that statement.

00:22:18.880 We were ordered to do so by Congress and then by the President of the United States, and that's what we did.

00:22:24.420 And let me, you know, I said it on Friday, this Justice Department, the FBI, DHS, we have gone after more sex traffickers,

00:22:34.080 more child pornographers, more men who have done harm to children and young women than any administration in history.

00:22:41.340 And so we need to separate those two ideas, the fact that there's the Epstein files and whether there's anybody there that we can go after,

00:22:47.880 and the work that we are doing every day, which is extraordinary, and we will continue to do that.

00:22:54.880 Joining me now for reaction and additional insights are three guests who have been meticulously going through the Epstein files

00:23:01.040 to determine what they do and do not show.

00:23:03.660 MK Media's own Emily Jashinsky, she hosts After Party with Emily Jashinsky.

00:23:08.480 The program note for you, it's now live at 9 p.m. Eastern on YouTube on Mondays and Wednesdays.

00:23:16.140 9 p.m., that's tonight at 9 p.m.

00:23:18.240 Used to be 10.30, right?

00:23:20.340 And now it's 9 because she's tired, just like the rest of us.

00:23:24.180 And she also hosts the MK Wrap-Up show right here on SiriusXM after our show.

00:23:28.480 We also have Ryan Grimm, CounterPoints co-host and reporter for DropSite News,

00:23:33.260 and Michael Schellenberger, founder of the Public News Substack.

00:23:38.400 All three have broken major stories from the files so far and are great journalists,

00:23:42.100 and they join me now for a deep dive.

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00:24:46.100 Guys, thank you so much for being here.

00:24:47.980 Thanks for having us.

00:24:48.660 Yeah, you got it.

00:24:49.860 Okay, so how do you like my summary of where we are?

00:24:53.620 Ryan, let me start with you because we don't get to talk to you that often.

00:24:55.780 How do you like my summary of what we've gleaned from the files so far?

00:25:00.120 And feel free to addend to it.

00:25:02.060 Yeah, there's a lot to unpack in that summary.

00:25:04.440 One thing I'd pick up on is this complaint that we're now seeing.

00:25:08.500 I think we can talk about this a bunch.

00:25:10.960 Complaint that we're seeing from some elites about a lack of due process.

00:25:14.500 And is this actually a kind of a moral panic?

00:25:18.380 Are people getting caught up in this who don't deserve to?

00:25:23.180 And there's that conversation.

00:25:25.920 And then there's also the why.

00:25:27.840 Like, let's say you believe that that is true.

00:25:30.120 Why is that happening?

00:25:32.460 And I think, and I would put forward, that it's because the public recognizes that there

00:25:38.440 is an elite class, which, you know, Asaf and Ro Khanna have called the Epstein class,

00:25:43.460 which is beyond accountability.

00:25:46.720 It operates in total, it operates with total impunity.

00:25:52.880 And so the public is left with only their ability to generate so much outrage that it

00:26:03.420 produces some consequences for some people.

00:26:06.820 But because there are no defined mechanisms of accountability, it's not like the public,

00:26:11.900 you know, has an opportunity to say, okay, we're going to prosecute this person.

00:26:15.740 We're going to let them go through these different stages of due process.

00:26:18.760 They can present evidence, we'll present evidence, we'll go to a jury.

00:26:21.480 Like, that doesn't, nobody believes that that exists.

00:26:25.340 We have this class, it's a global class that exists outside of democracy. 0.98

00:26:31.080 And that, you know, if you believe that some people are going to go down for this unfairly,

00:26:36.720 like, that is why.

00:26:38.020 And something then needs to be done about that.

00:26:40.260 There's this old saying that, you know, we'll either get, you know, socialism or barbarism.

00:26:44.520 In this case, I would say you either get accountability or barbarism or democracy or barbarism.

00:26:50.260 And so if, if there are elites right now who don't like what they think of as a barbaric

00:26:56.840 response to the barbaric behavior that the public has seen going on, you know, with impunity

00:27:02.880 inside these elite circles, then you need to address the fact that there is this class

00:27:07.520 that operates separately from all of us.

00:27:09.740 It needs to be broken up.

00:27:11.360 It can't exist.

00:27:12.700 We don't have a democratic government if a class like this can exist.

00:27:18.880 That's very interesting, Emily, because this, at its heart, the whole Epstein scandal is about,

00:27:24.080 I think, a revulsion with this kind of elitism.

00:27:27.700 You know, there is, I think most Americans are feeling that.

00:27:32.080 Yeah, I completely agree.

00:27:34.200 And a lot of Ryan's reporting at DropSite that I'm sure he'll talk about goes into how

00:27:38.980 anti-democratic a lot of the activities that were being organized by Jeffrey Epstein, by

00:27:44.100 Ehud Barak, by many, many other people.

00:27:46.060 I mean, one of the more interesting things, if you spend time in the Justice Department's

00:27:50.000 library, is you just kind of get a sense of the social circle around Jeffrey Epstein,

00:27:54.660 who's emailing him most.

00:27:56.060 And also, Jmail over at DropSite, you can literally be in a facsimile of his inbox.

00:28:01.460 And so you see the circle of people like Reid Hoffman, Bill Gates.

00:28:04.540 Bill Gates is second in command, essentially, the Norwegian prime minister, who is now in

00:28:09.020 big trouble.

00:28:09.660 Tom Pritzker, who resigned as executive chair of Hyatt just yesterday.

00:28:13.680 Larry Summers, Kathy Rumler being a very good example.

00:28:16.940 Jess Staley.

00:28:17.620 This is his tight inner ring, and they're making decisions about global politics and

00:28:23.980 business like it's a sandbox that they're playing in.

00:28:27.440 And you see, I mean, there are all kinds of specific examples, but the complete picture

00:28:31.480 is just how undemocratic the process is in some of these decisions that they were making.

00:28:38.760 And it's completely disgusting how flippant they are about some of those decisions, how

00:28:43.620 much they profited from some of those decisions, as Ryan has reported out.

00:28:48.640 And yeah, the evidence is, if you're a member of the public and you're looking at this and

00:28:52.940 you felt already disillusioned about the state of America, you're going to leave feeling even

00:28:57.860 more disillusioned.

00:28:59.680 Mm-hmm.

00:29:00.400 I'm like, I know, I don't want to beat up too much on Deepak Chopra, Michael, but it is,

00:29:05.300 it's just perfect for this story, that even that guy was in there, like, looking to Epstein

00:29:10.840 for advice on whether he's eternal.

00:29:12.980 I like your take on these files and what we've seen.

00:29:16.800 Yeah.

00:29:17.120 Hey, Megan, great to be with you guys.

00:29:18.880 And yeah, I mean, I agree with Emily and Ryan, I mean, and you, I mean, this is a glimpse

00:29:22.700 into the serious corruption of our ruling elites.

00:29:27.160 The behavior here is just awful.

00:29:30.280 There's no other word for it.

00:29:31.500 I do think that we have to distinguish between two separate, two different sets of things.

00:29:37.100 And I think one is Epstein's relationships with the intelligence community, his relationships

00:29:43.380 with the Department of Justice.

00:29:45.220 I think one of the most important of these messages that we saw in the most recent release

00:29:49.640 is the fact that Epstein was paid $25 million by Ariana de Rothschild to settle a Department

00:29:57.500 of Justice claim, and then another $10 million went to his attorney and friend, Catherine

00:30:03.680 Rumler, who was the-

00:30:05.600 Rumler.

00:30:06.240 Yeah, that was the, you know, U.S. attorney for, or was the White House attorney under

00:30:10.700 Barack Obama.

00:30:11.500 She just stepped down from Goldman Sachs.

00:30:14.140 What's going on there exactly?

00:30:15.620 I mean, we also, we have, you know-

00:30:16.520 She was, according to that email, it looked like she was facing an $85 million fine, potentially, 0.96

00:30:22.800 and somehow Epstein and Rumler, his BFF, intervened to get it cut down to $45 million,

00:30:29.920 and so she then paid him $25 and Rumler $10.

00:30:33.680 But Rumler all along has been like, I barely knew him.

00:30:35.960 Oh, really?

00:30:36.520 Okay.

00:30:36.980 I don't usually get $10 million from people I barely know, but-

00:30:40.640 Well, Rumler was also exchanging, sorry, but she was also exchanging like extremely intimate

00:30:44.560 emails with Epstein about her personal life, and in addition to all kinds of professional

00:30:48.720 stuff. 0.87

00:30:49.260 But that is obviously facially ridiculous. 0.78

00:30:51.140 She's all over, those tapes that we broke, that we reported on, that I heard, with Rumler, 0.89

00:30:58.040 Bannon, and Epstein, she's all over these tapes.

00:31:00.960 She's advising Epstein on how to rehab his image, and they do a mock 60 minutes type sit

00:31:06.840 down where Bannon like cross-examines him.

00:31:09.520 She's totally in on it.

00:31:10.520 She wants him to be rehabilitated.

00:31:12.520 This is post the Miami Herald reporting in 2018.

00:31:16.180 Michael, you were saying, sorry I interrupted you.

00:31:18.300 Oh, no, it's okay.

00:31:18.800 Yeah, I mean, so I mean, I think there's this, you know, he also talked about Bill Barr as

00:31:22.960 CIA.

00:31:23.760 We know, you know, thanks in part to Ryan's reporting, we know that Epstein, you know,

00:31:28.520 had as a client Adnan Khashoggi, who was a central player in the Iran-Contra, the illegal

00:31:34.360 Iran-Contra scandal of the 1980s involving, that the CIA oversaw.

00:31:39.000 You know, Rumler emailed Epstein to say that she got this, you know, the highest award from

00:31:44.520 within the CIA.

00:31:45.460 That's a secret award, by the way, and she felt comfortable telling Epstein about it.

00:31:49.520 Epstein referred to going into these.

00:31:51.040 On an open email.

00:31:51.820 What's that?

00:31:52.660 On an open email.

00:31:54.260 Yeah.

00:31:54.540 Right.

00:31:54.920 Yeah.

00:31:55.660 Right after, by the way, her job in the Obama White House, I'm sorry, keeping it right,

00:31:59.620 but her job in the Obama White House was to, at one point, deal with the fallout from

00:32:03.540 the Snowden scandal, so she leaves the White House and then goes and gets an award from

00:32:08.820 John Brennan at the CIA, and on, Ryan said, as Ryan said, on an open email, breaks Epstein

00:32:13.640 about it.

00:32:14.440 Interesting sequence of events.

00:32:15.620 Also, the torture report.

00:32:16.800 She's looking for a little pat on the head, Ryan.

00:32:18.980 She's like, oh, hey, look what I got, Daddy, and he doesn't respond, but give us context

00:32:22.940 for that, Ryan.

00:32:23.380 She also played a role, the White House suppressed the torture report.

00:32:28.240 There was that, there was even a Hollywood movie about it now, but, you know, they put together

00:32:32.740 this many hundred pages report about the torture that the U.S. had been engaged in during the

00:32:39.820 Bush administration, and the Obama administration's worked extremely hard to suppress it on behalf

00:32:47.380 of Brennan and the CIA.

00:32:49.280 That was an intense mission that they undertook, and I would suspect that Rummler's role in

00:32:57.360 that also contributed to her winning this award, but, you know, sorry, Michael, you were...

00:33:00.740 Yeah, no, I mean, so, I mean, I think that, for me, the big story remains Epstein's relationship

00:33:06.480 to the intelligence community, to the U.S. government.

00:33:09.200 He had a fake passport in the 1980s.

00:33:12.820 That's just not an obvious thing that someone would have working in finance.

00:33:16.820 He refers repeatedly to going into...

00:33:19.120 Saudi passport.

00:33:19.620 What's that?

00:33:20.820 It was a Saudi passport, wasn't it?

00:33:22.300 It was an Austrian passport, but with a Saudi address.

00:33:25.240 Right.

00:33:26.020 Yes.

00:33:26.380 Like, who gets that?

00:33:29.120 Like, I'm sure all three of you have an extra passport from another country.

00:33:33.740 What is that?

00:33:35.200 It's so crazy.

00:33:36.280 Can you just expand on...

00:33:37.360 Yeah.

00:33:37.500 But what is that?

00:33:38.200 Because I was saying in the intro, you know, if you were just to read the articles about

00:33:42.020 what's in these files, they wouldn't say that he was an asset to anybody.

00:33:44.500 But Bibi Netanyahu came out and wrote that himself a couple of months ago.

00:33:48.140 Yeah, I mean, it looks like he was somebody that was involved in, you know, was involved

00:33:54.340 his whole career in being an expert at moving money around, hiding money, creating tax havens.

00:34:00.000 Probably, I mean, we can't prove it, but I mean, I think he looks like he was involved

00:34:04.880 somehow in arranging finances during Iran-Contra, you know, potentially other, you know, intelligence

00:34:11.920 or clandestine operations.

00:34:14.280 That's why it's so frustrating, is you really don't feel like we have the full picture at

00:34:17.680 all yet.

00:34:18.180 We just have these glimpses.

00:34:19.840 You know, he talked about going into a SCIF several times.

00:34:22.660 At one point, though, he said that the SCIF, my house, a SCIF just stands for a Secure Compartmentalized

00:34:28.520 Information Facility, SCIF is the acronym.

00:34:32.620 But that's not language I've ever heard used outside of either the intelligence community,

00:34:37.180 intelligence gathering, congressional hearings, hearing from whistleblowers.

00:34:43.640 And so, you know, you kind of go, well, maybe he was just, you know, joking or using slang.

00:34:47.920 But all these things kind of point to a picture of a guy that was pretty close to the intelligence

00:34:52.660 community.

00:34:53.140 And so somebody that sort of sits at the intersection of the intelligence community, you know, finance

00:34:59.140 and potentially criminal activity.

00:35:01.500 And I thought it was interesting that he was a big advocate of digital currency, Bitcoin,

00:35:06.280 cryptocurrencies, which are perfect for, you know, hiding money, moving money.

00:35:11.600 So I think that's a whole...

00:35:13.620 Especially back then.

00:35:14.600 I mean, now it's all in vogue.

00:35:16.500 But back even to when he died, it wasn't nearly as big.

00:35:19.860 Ryan, what would you say is your biggest takeaway from having...

00:35:22.700 Yeah, you make your point.

00:35:23.740 But then tell me what your biggest takeaway is, too.

00:35:25.380 Yeah, well, my biggest takeaway is that he does seem to be so involved with intelligence

00:35:31.440 agencies throughout his career.

00:35:33.820 And to add on to what Michael was saying, just to give one example, and this one will blow

00:35:37.140 your mind, so, you know, Stan Pottinger, Stan Pottinger has gotten, you know, has become

00:35:42.900 part of this story.

00:35:43.820 He's the late Stan Pottinger at this point, but he was a prominent attorney for Epstein

00:35:49.340 survivors.

00:35:50.120 You know, he was representing, along with Brad Edwards, the victims who were suing Jeffrey

00:35:54.980 Epstein.

00:35:55.960 One thing we found in the files is that back in 2009, Pottinger had emailed Epstein and said,

00:36:03.760 hey, buddy, you know, keep your chin up.

00:36:07.040 I said, basically, he said, you are one of the lions or something like, you're a lion.

00:36:10.880 You're a true lion of the world.

00:36:12.400 And people who are such lions are the ones that, you know, are attacked by the world because,

00:36:19.900 you know, they can't understand your genius.

00:36:21.480 He's like a Picasso or a Da Vinci of trafficking or whatever.

00:36:25.520 And so, and he says, and, you know, it may be hard to imagine this, but we will one day

00:36:29.920 be laughing about this.

00:36:31.040 And I look forward to seeing you in New York when you're, when you're through all of this.

00:36:34.200 So that's Stan Pottinger.

00:36:35.220 He then ends up becoming an attorney for the survivors.

00:36:39.200 If you go back even further in time, he and Epstein were business partners in the early

00:36:44.340 1980s.

00:36:45.120 They shared, as the New York Times reported and others have reported, they shared a penthouse

00:36:49.260 office in New York in the early 1980s.

00:36:52.160 Pottinger, we know for certain, was moving money for the CIA during Iran-Contra.

00:36:57.020 So, so that, like, that's just one link that we have right there.

00:37:01.240 He also was, Epstein was a protege of Douglas Lease, who was a British arms trafficker who

00:37:06.240 was involved in, who was involved in Iran-Contra.

00:37:09.960 Obviously, Robert Maxwell was like the banker for, you know, moving money around.

00:37:14.640 Blaine's dad.

00:37:15.220 Blaine's dad.

00:37:15.760 And during Iran-Contra, Hashemi, like, he knew, like, he was associated with a lot of

00:37:20.100 the, like, key figures in Iran-Contra.

00:37:23.460 And that's the exact time that he has this Austrian passport with a fake name that would,

00:37:29.780 and a Saudi address that would let him kind of move around.

00:37:33.020 And then in the 90s, when the planes that were used by the CIA for Iran-Contra started taking

00:37:42.020 on too much heat, they get moved, half of them get sold off in a bankruptcy, the other

00:37:47.480 half get moved to Columbus, Ohio to start trafficking apparel for Les Wexner.

00:37:53.500 And our reporting shows that it was, it was Epstein himself who brought those planes to Columbus,

00:37:59.040 Ohio.

00:37:59.420 So, like, the links between that history and Epstein just run, you know, straight from

00:38:07.460 the 80s through the 90s and then up, you know, and then up to today.

00:38:11.140 So, it wouldn't be surprising if that's kind of his background, why he'd be using terms like

00:38:16.160 SCIF and have associations with every CIA director and so on.

00:38:21.860 Even though he never served in the military, there's nothing on his resume that would explain

00:38:26.760 any of that.

00:38:27.580 But boy, oh boy, he has a lot of connections for somebody who is allegedly not connected

00:38:31.600 at all.

00:38:31.880 Yeah, and for people who don't, for people, no, and I've realized a lot of people don't

00:38:34.800 know this, Iran-Contra involved Israel as the middle, middle man.

00:38:39.700 Like, Israel would send weapons to Iran, and the U.S. would then replenish Israel's stocks,

00:38:46.920 and Israel and the CIA separately had different slush funds.

00:38:50.660 So, that, like, a lot of people, like, it's not called Iran-Israel-Contra, it's Iran-Contra,

00:38:56.060 but so a lot of people don't realize that Israel played the central role there.

00:39:00.260 And you go back and you're reading that history, and you're like, it's just comical that they're,

00:39:03.820 for many, many years, making enormous amounts of money arming Iran, because Iran was fighting

00:39:09.340 Iraq, and they considered Iraq to be a bigger threat to them than Iran.

00:39:13.160 And, you know, before this show's over, we could be bombing Iran at the behest of Israel. 0.84

00:39:19.960 Let's hope not.

00:39:22.600 Emily, you were going to say something, but I just wanted to say, let's see.

00:39:26.940 No, you go ahead.

00:39:27.920 I'll get back to this.

00:39:28.660 Yeah, I mean, there's a lot about, if you just search the files for, like, CIA, NSA,

00:39:33.500 you find that Epstein foied himself in 2011, and the CIA gets back to him.

00:39:39.500 He foied himself at NSA, CIA, FBI, and at least the CIA FOIA.

00:39:44.120 He is FOIA-ing, so Freedom of Information Act.

00:39:47.880 He's asking the CIA to produce any evidence, basically, of an affiliation with him, which

00:39:53.600 is extremely interesting.

00:39:55.820 It's a very odd thing to do.

00:39:57.660 If you know you have had no affiliation, you have had no status as an asset with the CIA,

00:40:03.700 that's already bizarre.

00:40:05.120 There are a lot of emails, and this is Ryan and I with Murtaza Hussain reported this out

00:40:10.960 at DropSite.

00:40:12.200 He was recruiting, and this is another huge element that we saw amplified by the DOJ library

00:40:19.680 emails release.

00:40:21.200 We see so much more about his efforts to get engaged in bioengineering, biohacking, and so

00:40:29.380 he was asking people to connect him with NSA.

00:40:32.220 There's a calendar invite for Kathy Rumler and NSA and Jeffrey Epstein in the emails.

00:40:38.500 There is evidence of other people offering up, quote-unquote, codebreakers, Israeli hackers, 0.60

00:40:45.280 a man named Dan Dubnow, who used to be a producer at CBS.

00:40:48.020 There are emails where he is offering up Epstein, NSA, or I'm sorry, Israeli codebreakers, also

00:40:53.180 NSA codebreakers, because Epstein had this theory that people who are breaking codes for NSA

00:40:59.220 could also then reverse engineer or hack into cells and our genes and just go leaps and

00:41:08.460 bounds forward in terms of bioengineering, because he was very interested in bioengineering.

00:41:13.360 And this is one of the grand conspiracy theories about him is that he was trying to produce lots

00:41:19.820 and lots of offspring that were Jeffrey Epstein-like and that he was trying to, you know, do eugenics.

00:41:26.440 And there is, like, actually some evidence that he was significantly, on a scientific level,

00:41:31.640 pursuing those ends and with people high up in the intelligence community.

00:41:36.760 And by the way, here's exactly what Netanyahu posted.

00:41:41.660 He reposted an article that argues new emails between Ehud Barak and Jeffrey Epstein should

00:41:47.960 mean at a minimum an end to the widespread taboo of even asking questions about the billionaire

00:41:52.300 sex offenders' links to the Israeli state.

00:41:55.800 Epstein brokered security deals for Israel, had a close friendship with one of its former

00:41:59.680 prime ministers, Barak, and military officials, and apparently even secretly involved himself

00:42:04.880 in the country's elections.

00:42:06.320 If it were any other country, it would not be remotely scandalous to wonder out loud what

00:42:11.800 it could all mean.

00:42:14.460 So, I mean, that's B.B. Netanyahu reposting that article about Epstein.

00:42:19.440 Michael, I know you took a look at this, you know, his ties with intelligence, ties with the

00:42:23.460 Justice Department, but you also have questions about his behavior with women, girls, and others.

00:42:33.560 Yes. So, what are the questions? Because, you know, I'm as open-minded as anybody to how dirty

00:42:40.720 and disgusting Jeffrey Epstein was at any point in his adult life or otherwise, but I haven't 0.96

00:42:45.960 seen anything in here supporting pedophile ring or even sex trafficking ring of underaged 0.94

00:42:52.140 girls really at any point. 0.67

00:42:55.300 Yeah, I think that's right. And I think it's important. I would like to be on the record

00:42:58.480 saying that I do think that this has become a moral panic. You know, I talked to, you know,

00:43:03.560 people in my life, they don't, they think it's something different than it is. I mean,

00:43:08.000 they think that they're preying on really young girls. And I know that you got into trouble for

00:43:12.520 earlier for making the distinction, but I think it is important for people to understand the

00:43:17.140 distinction there. And I just think a lot of the people that have, you know, come under fire or lost

00:43:21.660 their jobs. Just to be clear, because a pedophile is someone who is attracted to prepubescent

00:43:28.500 children. And the DSM-5 says under age 13, prepubescent. And then they have two other words

00:43:35.580 for if you're into adolescent girls or a little older, like teenage girls. Like it's, I can't

00:43:40.680 remember what it is. It's just like pedophile, but with a different prefix. But yeah, pedophile 0.69

00:43:45.500 does not technically legally apply unless you, your thing is prepubescent children under the age

00:43:51.580 of 13. Yeah. I mean, I think it's misleading from that perspective. I think it's also misleading.

00:43:55.600 I mean, I think that there is this, you know, there's, there's an exchange between him and

00:44:00.200 Tish, Steve Tish, where he sort of, he says, oh, I'm, you know, Tish is like, oh, I met this girl

00:44:05.380 at your party. Can we connect? And then Epstein says, I'd rather not do this over email. Let's talk

00:44:11.160 about it over phone. I think that there is a picture of Epstein, you know, grooming young

00:44:16.520 women, moving them to powerful men. But I don't think that that that's not how he makes his money.

00:44:22.220 You know, Mike Benz, you know, says that sort of girls grease deals is the way you would think 1.00

00:44:27.700 about it. You'd have a lot of young women around to make it sort of attractive for people to want 1.00

00:44:31.980 to hang out with them. But I mean, he's making his money through $25 million fees to the Rothschilds,

00:44:37.600 not, you know, by, you know, moving women around. But I will say, I do think that, look, 0.63

00:44:43.180 there's awful, like, I think all these people are awful, like, and it's really important. I

00:44:47.060 condemn it. And this behavior is terrible. But is it? I mean, we are back to where we were with

00:44:53.080 Me Too, where just any association with Epstein is enough to get you to have to, you know, step down

00:44:58.360 from your position. And so I think we saw it with, you know, Pritzker, you know, like, there's no

00:45:03.760 evidence of crimes. It's not even clear that he understood what was going on. You know, Fergie

00:45:07.780 had to step down from a charity. I just think there's, we're at a place where people are just

00:45:12.780 like, you know, the boards of these organizations are just like, we have to get rid of these people.

00:45:16.560 And I do think that that's bad. And that's, that's, that's just guilt by association. And

00:45:21.260 that's, that's unethical. And we don't, we don't agree with that.

00:45:24.180 I understand the Rumler thing, because she's in the position of being the top and most trusted

00:45:29.540 law enforcement officer at Goldman Sachs. You know, I mean, she's, she's the general counsel.

00:45:35.000 She's the one whose integrity, judgment, and honesty matters literally the most of anybody

00:45:41.580 at Goldman Sachs. And they deal with people's fortunes for a living. You cannot have somebody

00:45:45.160 there who's lying as much as she appears to have about her relationship with somebody as

00:45:49.640 controversial as Epstein and who has the piss poor judgment to be the guy's BFF after, as a lawyer,

00:45:56.000 seeing what he pleaded guilty to and seeing what was in that Miami hero. Like,

00:45:59.400 I'm sorry, but there's just, she had to go. I'm sorry. I don't feel bad for Catherine Rumler

00:46:03.920 at all. Um, but I do think like Peter Atiyah has taken a big hit as a result of these Epstein files. 0.80

00:46:11.660 And I haven't looked that one up in like a week or two since it hit, but my understanding on Peter

00:46:16.200 Atiyah, the author of Outlived, and he's a longevity guy now he's been on the show, um, is he was friends

00:46:23.180 with Epstein. He wrote him an email saying the problem with being friends with you is your, your real life

00:46:28.800 is just so unbelievable. And yet you can't talk to anybody about it. Like I, Peter Atiyah cannot

00:46:33.060 tell anyone about it, which doesn't suggest he saw Epstein with underage girls. It does suggest

00:46:38.860 he'd seen some sort of debauchery, um, potentially. And the controversy was he, he was with Epstein and

00:46:47.040 about to be with Epstein. I think, uh, as, as his son was born and in the maternity ward still with his

00:46:53.500 wife and he didn't go up to be with them. And Megan, I mean, for me, I think, I mean, my reaction

00:46:57.820 is sort of like, uh, with Epstein. Yeah. I mean, my reaction was like, are we going to get in there

00:47:02.040 and try to figure out whether or not Peter Atiyah did the right thing in his relationship with his

00:47:06.280 wife? I mean, what are we doing here? Exactly. Like that's for me, it's a crime. I'm really glad

00:47:10.740 that Barry Weiss and CBS has remained firm on this. We're not going to cancel Peter Atiyah by presuming

00:47:16.320 that we understand, you know, what the whole situation was there with his wife. That's absurd. So

00:47:21.540 I do think that's a great example. The other thing, Michael, is he, he admitted in his book

00:47:24.900 to being a douchebag for a large period of his adult, you know, adult youth, if you will, 0.61

00:47:30.240 with that term, you know, his younger adult years, he, he, his book lands in a way where you're like,

00:47:34.920 oh my God, you know, like you, you learn a lot about Peter. Did he confess everything? No. But

00:47:39.460 like, if you read his book, you knew he really had some serious issues, uh, earlier in his adult

00:47:44.880 life. It's like, I feel like this is, it's not a great story, but it really is between Peter and his

00:47:50.720 family. Um, I went on there. It doesn't, I would still put Peter on this show in a heartbeat. I

00:47:56.200 think he's done a lot to help people with their wellness. Um, but I also need to check myself on

00:48:01.700 not having a double standard for, you know, rummler who worked for Obama and Bannon who I love. And I

00:48:08.760 think he's great. You know, like I'm really trying to check myself on not judging people based on their

00:48:13.300 partisan stripes. Go ahead, Emily. Well, yeah, I mean the, the, the, the stuff here, like one of the,

00:48:19.200 the keywords, if you search the Epstein library for visa, what it looks like is that Epstein was

00:48:25.160 coordinating with modeling agencies, like Jean-Luc Brunel, obviously who died under relatively

00:48:30.580 mysterious circumstances back in 2022 in a French prison. Um, Jean-Luc Brunel, Epstein, like he was, 0.52

00:48:36.760 he was procuring visas for women and then helping them out. That's why people resigned at Columbia

00:48:41.800 University because Epstein greased his kids with like a hundred thousand donation to a hundred

00:48:46.140 thousand dollars donation to Columbia, got one of these women into the dental school. Uh, and so he's,

00:48:51.880 he's procuring women, helping with visas, going through modeling agencies, bringing them, and then

00:48:57.980 either they're his girlfriends or you can tell he's corresponding with other men. I mean, here, let me just

00:49:04.900 read from this email that I found last night, um, which is like lewd, but it is, so somebody asks him,

00:49:11.840 um, basically someone says, I asked her, we don't know who her is about girls in Moscow and Tokyo for

00:49:19.620 me. Also, does she have any good girls in LA, but I didn't mention you. And then they go on to say,

00:49:25.680 um, now I'm finding P word for you. Epstein says something wrong with that. And then the guy responds,

00:49:32.160 no one can beat your P word network. So it's a known joke with this guy, at least that Epstein had a P word

00:49:39.960 network. And, uh, that what's interesting about that in the trafficking context is that if this

00:49:45.320 is understood to be prostitution and that you are coming to the United States, Epstein is greasing

00:49:50.860 the skids to help you get this visa and help the modeling agency. And they're doing it for purely

00:49:55.520 sexual purposes that maybe it comes with other advantages, but it's really sexual that you can

00:50:00.820 see actual trafficking potentially, uh, a prostitution ring in that. Uh, and so that one, and one final

00:50:08.300 point in that is when you go back to the original stories, like the original Julie K Brown story,

00:50:12.480 the Palm beach police do have women on the record that have spoken to the media since Courtney Wilde,

00:50:16.560 who says she was 14 years old and she was basically, uh, helping him run a pyramid scheme at her school

00:50:23.080 when she was still embraces. So there's, there is before and after, and they are distinct,

00:50:28.200 but the sexual stuff is bad and potentially very illegal too. Yeah. I know. Like I was saying,

00:50:34.600 you can be trafficked even though you are of age. It's, it's happened to many women. Standby. I have

00:50:40.080 to take a quick break, but there's a lot more to get into Bill Clinton, Howard Lutnick, and more on

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00:52:18.140 We are back now with our Epstein Deep Dive, Emily Jashinsky, Ryan Grimm, and Michael Schellenberger.

00:52:24.140 So let's kick it off here on the women front. In that same New York Times podcast, they talk about 1.00

00:52:30.880 the nature of the women who ultimately wound up within his reach. Here's thought four.

00:52:38.660 As soon as he got out of jail in 2009, and possibly before, he was basically building or expanding a

00:52:45.420 virtual harem, a pipeline of young women in their late teens and early 20s, who were mostly from 0.68

00:52:51.280 Eastern Europe and Russia. He had scouts roving around these places to find him women. And every

00:52:56.660 time he found the women, he would ask them to find him more women. And so you might ask, okay,

00:53:01.900 so why do these women comply? And the answer is that he had money and influence, and they usually

00:53:06.600 had none. He bought them plane tickets. He provided them apartments. He offered to pay for college or

00:53:13.020 dental school. He sent them to doctors or plastic surgeons. And most of all, he dangled a sense of

00:53:18.060 opportunity and security. He had a place for them to stay. He had people for them to meet. He would

00:53:23.820 make introductions to modeling agencies or producers or rich men. And we can see in these emails these

00:53:29.860 varying levels of comfort on the part of the women. Some of them seem to take the arrangement at face

00:53:35.680 value. They're trading sex for money or security or opportunity.

00:53:39.780 I mean, there's not necessarily anything illegal about that, just for the record. Like,

00:53:45.460 it goes back to the discussion at the top of the first hour. Gold digger or sex trafficking? You do

00:53:51.000 have to figure out whether there was force involved. Force, coercion, or fraud basically takes it from

00:53:58.840 voluntary gold digging. You know, I will sleep with you and be your Russian lover as long as you put me up 0.99

00:54:04.300 in a hotel and introduce me to a bunch of modeling agencies and rich men. That's fine. I'm sorry, 0.71

00:54:10.320 it's a tale as old as time, frankly. But if she stops wanting to do that and you start threatening

00:54:18.220 her, like, I've got videotape of you or I'm going to tell everybody what you did or you better continue

00:54:22.380 in this thing or else it can change into something that was legal and no longer is. And certainly if from

00:54:29.000 the get-go, the woman felt like she had no choice, you can have problems. So I just want to be clear

00:54:35.500 on the law. It's not a slam dunk just because there was sort of a financial understanding at hand.

00:54:42.520 I'd like, that's been happening since the dawn of time. I've said that before. Emily, can we talk

00:54:46.980 about some of the things you tweeted out last night? Because there is a lot of discussion of the

00:54:53.200 P word. I think the audience knows what the P word is, but it's another word for cat or kitty.

00:55:00.860 And it's all over the Epstein emails. Yeah. So for example, just to the point you were just making,

00:55:08.720 Megan, I found this 2015 email from some woman who at one point says, I appreciate things good

00:55:14.860 happened. Thank you. English clearly not her first language. Unfortunately, my impression is that

00:55:19.640 becoming a mistress was the only one job proposition you were really serious about. I refused. So it

00:55:25.340 meant all is over. She goes on to talk about how meeting Bill Gates or Woody Allen was great,

00:55:30.180 but nobody will hire me just because I have nice pictures with them. There's also, and these are

00:55:34.480 some of the most disturbing emails that I found, ample, ample evidence of Epstein arranging for people

00:55:42.760 to get what he says are P word tests or go to the P word doctor. And just like really disgusting

00:55:49.100 terms. So yeah, like he tells people to go get a P word swab. He is with his assistant arranging

00:55:56.220 gyno appointments for women to get antibiotics. There's one woman who tells him, be careful who 0.99

00:56:02.260 you sleep with. Those girls are infected because she seemingly has an infection. And so that gets to 1.00

00:56:08.460 some of these legal questions about whether this was understood by the women to be prostitution,

00:56:15.020 meaning money was exchanged for sex, or if it was a relationship, a transactional relationship,

00:56:20.760 but a relationship that didn't involve transactions of like, like legal prostitution. And Megan, you would

00:56:27.560 know way more about that than I would. But like you said, this stuff is, I mean, the library is riddled

00:56:32.720 with examples of this stuff. I mean, I'll give you one example. We did a couple of in-depth shows on

00:56:39.320 sex trafficking when I was at NBC. And, um, the, the one woman's story that always stayed with me was

00:56:44.320 she thought she was going out on a date with, she was of age. She thought she was going out on a date

00:56:51.620 with, um, her boyfriend. They, uh, she had a daughter of her own and that daughter was back at

00:56:59.480 his apartment. And, uh, the two of them went out and instead of driving her to dinner, he drove her to

00:57:04.540 a hotel and said, go inside and have sex with the guy in there and get the money. And she was shocked 0.94

00:57:10.740 and was like, what, what do you mean? Absolutely not. I thought we're going on a date. And he hit her

00:57:16.240 and said, go inside or else. And she did it. And she explained that she was afraid of him, but she was

00:57:24.520 really afraid for her daughter who was not in her possession. She thought she'd been going out on a date

00:57:29.200 that night. And she had the, the, the daughter was with somebody that he controlled and, um, that's

00:57:35.620 how it started. And then they've got you like, once you do it once, then they're like, I'll tell

00:57:40.860 everybody you're a prostitute and you had sex for money, which you did, you know? And then they start 0.99

00:57:45.780 advertising you on, used to be back page. Now it's other, uh, things would be shut that down. But

00:57:50.240 in any event, that's sex trafficking. She did not voluntarily go in there and have sex with a, 0.87

00:57:55.940 with a John because she wanted to be a hooker. She did it because of force, fraud, and coercion. 1.00

00:58:01.680 Now this is something else, you know, like I say, like gold digging women, Anna Nicole Smith, 1.00

00:58:06.840 do we really think she had it? She had the hots for that 95 year old man. Of course she didn't.

00:58:12.320 She wanted his money. She wanted to be taken care of. Is it prostitution? Not exactly. 1.00

00:58:16.220 It's more like gold digging. It's definitely not sex trafficking. There was no force fraud or coercion.

00:58:21.300 And so you got to ask yourself in all these, you know, situations and it's individual. You have to go

00:58:25.780 individual. They would have had to, had there been a legal trial. How about this one? How about this

00:58:30.440 one? How about this one? There's pretty likely though, some fraud, like in the, in the forced

00:58:34.760 fraud and conviction there, the chance that, that, uh, the recruiters that Epstein is using in Eastern

00:58:43.400 Europe are going to these young women, um, or late, you know, late teens and being direct and honest 0.99

00:58:51.480 about what they're signing up for is pretty, pretty low. I think we can probably all agree

00:58:57.420 with that. That's where the modeling, right. The visa and the modeling are where the fraud

00:59:03.360 lies. Uh, they're getting, they're getting a visa to do modeling. The, the modeling company

00:59:09.340 now controls that visa. Uh, they're not actually doing modeling. Like, let's not like, maybe they

00:59:16.520 get introduced to a couple of agents or something here in that one woman's right. Email that Emily 0.79

00:59:21.160 just said, like, I'm not going to get modeling jobs based on my pictures, my, my candids with

00:59:25.080 Woody Allen at your home. Right. Yes. Right. Yeah. It's wonderful to meet Bill Gates on the island,

00:59:29.840 but yeah, nobody's going to hire me over that. Uh, apparently it wasn't really that wonderful to

00:59:34.400 meet. No, of course it wasn't. I think she was being, I think she was being a little bit generous

00:59:37.640 and facetious at the same time. Well, speaking of infections, I mean, that's one of the big,

00:59:41.200 uh, takeaways or pieces of evidence again, from this library that we now have access to,

00:59:45.960 which is Epstein drafted an email to himself where this brings blackmail into it potentially

00:59:51.300 too. He seems to be threatening to blow the whistle on Bill Gates and is saying he helped

00:59:57.420 Bill Gates procure antibiotics because he slept with a prostitute, a Russian prostitute and needed 0.99

01:00:04.220 to slip something to his then wife, Melinda, uh, in order to be surreptitious about it. And so that 0.98

01:00:09.740 looks like Epstein was planning potentially, again, this was in his drafts, but he was planning

01:00:14.500 potentially to blow the whistle for leverage over Bill Gates.

01:00:19.460 Well, Michael, correct me if I'm wrong. Cause I think you've written on this too, this,

01:00:23.020 the, the Bill Gates potential blackmail thing. So this email that Jeffrey Epstein sent to himself

01:00:28.960 or was in his drafts, I don't know which must've, must've been sent to himself. And it's in like the

01:00:34.460 voice of a Bill Gates worker, uh, employee who seems to be saying it would be terrible if this

01:00:43.860 stuff I did for you got revealed, sir. It's going to be really bad if the world finds out I got you

01:00:49.600 STD antibiotics to slip into Melinda's food because you cheated on her with a hooker or with a 1.00

01:00:56.500 sex trafficking person who had diseases in the hoochie. And, and, and your point I think has been

01:01:04.140 like that that's potential blackmail and didn't then Epstein and Gates invest in that guy's company,

01:01:14.040 the guy, the employee in whose voice Epstein was allegedly writing this email.

01:01:20.440 Yeah. I mean, look, it's another, I will stress it's another case. Gates has denied all of this.

01:01:25.880 And so I think it's just important to say, we don't have evidence that anything in that email

01:01:30.180 is true. It does appear that Epstein wrote that to be in the voice of Gates's one of Gates's main

01:01:37.140 advisors, somebody named Boris, Boris and Epstein had been exchanging emails because Boris was mad that

01:01:43.960 Gates wasn't going to spring for this really expensive apartment penthouse for him in New York.

01:01:49.200 And he was getting Epstein's advice on how to basically get what he wanted at just a purely

01:01:54.760 materialistic level from Gates. So pretty tawdry stuff. But I, yeah, I mean, it did,

01:02:00.680 I think it was the first clearest piece of evidence that, you know, blackmail was that there was some,

01:02:05.660 you know, there's some evidence that, that there was some thinking around blackmail. You know,

01:02:10.000 we also know now that there were hidden cameras. They talked, you know, he talked and there's discussion

01:02:14.280 the email about him implanting hidden cameras. I was impressed by how aggressive Epstein was in

01:02:22.040 trying to get with Gates. He also was advising Gates on how to, you know, raise money and have

01:02:26.540 a donor advised fund and sort of trying to sort of coach Gates. But, you know, it's, that's,

01:02:32.320 it's another tough one. I mean, I have a lot of criticism of Bill Gates for some of his projects,

01:02:36.760 but I do think he's been, you know, at this point, he's been me too,

01:02:40.480 in a way that I thought we sort of learned that we weren't going to do that anymore.

01:02:44.720 You know, I will say too, I'm just on the issue of the, the grooming and it is grooming in the

01:02:51.000 sense that Epstein is grooming these young women. They then have sex with him and it appears that then 0.75

01:02:55.780 he turns them over to other men, which is how, which is how pimps groom, you know, young women 0.99

01:03:01.600 for prostitution. There's also evidence in those files that there was a lot of drugs being used

01:03:06.560 and there were large quantities. At one point there was a list of, of drugs that was being

01:03:11.160 circulated. Again, I haven't, we can't verify whether that was really evidence of widespread

01:03:15.680 drug use, but it seems to me that there was plenty of evidence over many years to go after these guys

01:03:22.760 and to, you know, to prosecute these crimes and investigate them more. And it didn't happen. I mean,

01:03:28.080 obviously there was the, the initial conviction. And then of course they were beginning the second

01:03:31.660 conviction or the second investigation, but it just seems like people look the other way knowing

01:03:37.120 full well what was going on. And I think we need to understand why that would be.

01:03:41.320 And why did they investigate whether Bill Gates, that's one of the big questions we all have.

01:03:45.720 Did they investigate whether Bill Gates drugged his wife as soon as they saw that email?

01:03:49.640 That's, it seems potentially to be evidence.

01:03:52.080 Well, that, so that's why the Bill Gates thing to me is it's at a higher level than just

01:03:56.800 unsupported me to, uh, accusations because Melinda Gates has weighed in. Melinda Gates gave an

01:04:03.180 interview. Bill's now ex-wife. Um, this happened, it was on NPR just after the latest round,

01:04:10.800 including that allegation hit, she was on cam and was asked about the latest revelations. And here

01:04:16.840 she is inside 18. The emails in the files suggest that Bill Gates had additional affairs and that he

01:04:23.000 tried to get medication to treat a sexually transmitted infection and that he was going to

01:04:28.340 give you the medicine without you knowing his representative has said, all of this is false.

01:04:34.740 It is not on you to have to respond to the details of that alleged behavior, but I, I wonder what your

01:04:42.960 dominant emotion is when you read these news articles with these details. Sad, just unbelievable sadness.

01:04:53.000 Unbelievable sadness. Right. And again, I'm able to take my own sadness and look at those young

01:05:00.080 girls and say, my God, how did they, how did that happen to those girls? Right. And so for me,

01:05:08.140 it's just sadness, sadness for, you know, I, I've left, I had to, I left my marriage. I had to leave

01:05:14.120 my marriage. I wanted to leave my marriage. And so it's just sad. That's the truth. Right. And,

01:05:18.980 and it's kind of like, ah, at least for me, I've been, it'll move on in life. And I hope there's

01:05:24.740 some justice for those now women, right? We see them standing up in front of microphones in DC.

01:05:31.600 First of all, it's a very annoying verbal tick when people continue to say right after every point

01:05:36.420 they make. If you are somebody out there who does that work on it, go ahead, Michael.

01:05:40.260 Yeah. I mean, I look, I think that's a terrible exchange there. I mean, she,

01:05:44.820 she sort of says, the reporter says, you know, the Gates has denied this, but she's still sort

01:05:50.100 of describing the email as though it's somehow verified. It's not. And then she says, just tell

01:05:54.420 us your emotion. I think the right question was, did that happen? Did you have any evidence?

01:05:59.560 Yeah. Do you believe this happened to you? Did you confront him?

01:06:02.460 That's not, I just think that's, that's actually taking you down that Me Too road, which is like,

01:06:06.480 hey, we don't really care about the facts of the case. You're right. Just tell us how you feel

01:06:09.900 emotionally. It's the P word. It's the P word way around asking the direct hard question, which is,

01:06:15.660 do you believe this happened to you? Did you call up Bill Gates and ask him, ask him whether he did

01:06:20.880 this right? Well, and here's another question. Boris Nikolic, who is the man whose voice the email

01:06:25.320 was written in, this is like Bill Gates' second in command. He's exchanging all kinds of emails with

01:06:30.420 Epstein, tongue in cheek about women and the like. But he is also one of the people who Epstein was

01:06:35.580 using to procure NSA sources to help him code break the human genome and to be involved in those types

01:06:43.720 of projects. So did the government investigate whether the NSA was improperly involved in that

01:06:51.300 type of scientific pursuit or was it state sanctioned? I mean, these are given how much of

01:06:56.780 the Gates Foundation and the Gates personal, the Gates personal office was state sanctioned. That's a

01:07:02.720 huge, huge question. We have no evidence that that's being investigated or was investigated.

01:07:06.720 And the government's not saying, no, no, no, this was state sanctioned. This is something that we do

01:07:10.460 on the side. Anything like that. But it's a huge open question. And just to correct, I'm not sure if

01:07:16.760 there was an investment into this guy's company, but this is what I meant to reference per the Wall

01:07:22.400 Street Journal. Epstein had threatened to expose Bill Gates' alleged affair with Russian bridge player

01:07:28.740 Mila Antonova in 2017, purportedly because Bill Gates would not join a charitable fund.

01:07:35.520 The financier began with JPMorgan Chase. In any event, there does appear to be threatening behavior

01:07:41.840 going on by Epstein toward Gates and possibly others, Ryan, in order to get them to do what he

01:07:48.820 wanted. And in that way, these women were useful to Jeffrey Epstein.

01:07:52.180 Right. And so we need to understand a couple of things. One is the context of his relationships with

01:07:56.420 these intelligence agencies. And the other is that he and Ehud Barak were pioneers in a way of

01:08:03.080 in the cyber surveillance industry. Like he and Barak opened doors for Israeli companies around the

01:08:09.740 world to grow what has become a truly like global panopticon of surveillance around the world. A lot

01:08:18.220 of these Israeli companies have since been bought up by multinational companies. And so now they're

01:08:22.620 embedded in all of the big tech infrastructure. The point is, Jeffrey Epstein knows a lot about

01:08:31.280 operational security when it comes to communications. He also knew that he was either, you know, getting

01:08:36.480 sued at any point or could be getting sued at any point over all manner. Look, he's got the victims

01:08:42.620 coming after him, you know, since, you know, since his conviction. And he's also got very shady,

01:08:48.560 gray area business dealings that he's doing constantly. And so he knows that his emails are,

01:08:54.480 you know, routinely subject to subpoena, let alone observable by all the different foreign

01:09:02.680 intelligence agencies that have an interest in him. So what you get in his email is only what he is kind

01:09:10.720 of roughly okay with. Wants you to see. People seeing. Yeah. So he wanted this to come out about

01:09:15.800 Bill Gates. Well, and you also see oftentimes, hey, this is not for email, as Emily pointed out

01:09:21.240 earlier. Like, you'll find that a decent amount of times in the calls, in the emails. We need to

01:09:27.500 talk about this in person, he'll say. And so if he's ever going to do any blackmailing, like, it would

01:09:34.920 be very difficult for you to believe that you would find it in these, you know, JEEvacation at gmail.com

01:09:41.160 or anywhere else. Well, what was he doing with Ehud Barak? I mean, was he, do you believe he was

01:09:48.220 an Israeli intelligence asset or an American intelligence asset or somebody's intelligent

01:09:54.640 asset? He was clearly an asset, a very, very valuable asset to Ehud Barak. And Ehud Barak

01:10:01.580 was working directly with the Israeli intelligence community in growing the Israeli cyber weapons

01:10:08.440 industry around the world. And so we, and. Let me just ask you, let me just interrupt you and ask

01:10:13.480 you, because I had a debate about this with Ben Shapiro over the summer at the Charlie Kirk event.

01:10:18.460 I, Charlie asked me, do you think he was, and he was Intel, Jeffrey Epstein. And I said, it certainly

01:10:23.960 looks that way. And he said, for whom? And I said, you'd have to guess Israel as one of the 0.56

01:10:28.940 possibilities given his relationship with Ehud Barak. Then Ben Shapiro came on my show and then I was

01:10:33.720 called an anti-Semite. And so was Charlie, just, just for literally just that. And then Ben Shapiro

01:10:38.580 came on my show and said, he wasn't, he wasn't. Ehud Barak has denied it. And I remember I was like,

01:10:46.340 oh, well, okay. I mean, that doesn't really give us a final answer. And then that's why the BB

01:10:52.100 Netanyahu piece putting out there, not that he was an intelligence asset for Israel, but saying he

01:10:57.380 clearly was working with Ehud Barak on intelligence matters, you know, and, and also saying it's fine to ask

01:11:03.420 the question, which doesn't make you an anti-Semite, which I thought was very interesting

01:11:07.180 for obvious reasons. But what you're saying now is that there's no question he was working on Intel

01:11:11.620 matters with Ehud Barak. That, that is, that is utterly indisputable. And people can go to

01:11:16.080 DropSite and look at our section called Epstein in Israel and go read a bunch of the different

01:11:20.740 stories. Like for instance, he, which I have. Yeah. So you, you've, you've seen it. So he, you know,

01:11:26.120 he sold cyber weapons infrastructure with Ehud Barak to Mongolia and then helped cut a,

01:11:31.960 a state deal between Israel and Mongolia. So often these, often these cyber weapons deals

01:11:38.080 then are followed by, you know, something dangled by the, by the state of Israel itself. The same

01:11:44.920 thing happened in, in Ivory Coast just on Tuesday, we put a story out.

01:11:48.720 Wait, dumb that down for me.

01:11:50.600 So, so basically Ehud Barak would work with his Israeli intelligence community and,

01:11:56.420 and a private company, oftentimes say Paragon, which is one where he's, you know, top official

01:12:04.180 at, which is one of the biggest kind of cyber, you know, surveillance companies in the world.

01:12:09.880 It would sort of be like Palantir or Lockheed Martin. Ryan was just explaining this to me this

01:12:13.640 morning.

01:12:14.460 Yeah. A rival of one of those.

01:12:15.420 Okay.

01:12:15.820 So then he would go to Mongolia and say, like, look, so you're having some, or Ivory Coast,

01:12:20.120 like, so you're having a lot of trouble here. Like I see protests in the streets. You got a lot of

01:12:24.100 dissent. Like we have a level of surveillance technology that is far and above, you know,

01:12:30.580 what, what our competitors can offer. And their, their selling point is, is always, it's tested

01:12:36.700 on Palestinians. Like you've seen our system of occupation in the West Bank and in Gaza.

01:12:45.160 Is that not quite impressive the way that we were able to lock that down? We have developed

01:12:49.180 extraordinary technology as, as a result of that. And so then that you meet with the, the

01:12:55.040 Mongolian president. They actually met in literally in Davos and then also traveled to Mongolia. And

01:13:01.300 then with, within months of, of that, then Israel strikes up a, a security partnership with the state

01:13:09.540 of Mongolia. So it's not just a, you know, intelligence community to intelligence company

01:13:15.540 to Mongolia relationship. It's then state to state, Israel to Mongolia. And, and so they've,

01:13:21.580 they've done, they did this, uh, with.

01:13:23.400 All facilitated by Epstein and Ehud Barak.

01:13:27.100 Right.

01:13:27.840 Right, exactly.

01:13:28.620 Okay, I get it.

01:13:29.220 Ryan, you should mention what you, you just scooped, this big story about the apartment.

01:13:32.800 This is, this is a very interesting one that we just, um, just published over at DropSite. So

01:13:38.540 in, at least in 2016 and 2017, and, but probably much beyond that, the, the Israeli permanent mission

01:13:46.940 at the UN was responsible for security at Jeffrey Epstein's apartment. That's in, that's according,

01:13:54.180 yes. So that's according to emails that we found, uh, in, in the files. So.

01:13:59.460 I, I have been reliably told that you are an anti-Semite if you look at all into Jeffrey Epstein's

01:14:05.540 connections to Ehud Barak or Israel, Ryan. So you just tread carefully.

01:14:09.240 So the, the, so what, what's probably going on here. So this is related to Ehud Barak staying

01:14:14.600 for such long extended periods of time in his apartment, which undercuts Ehud Barak's previous

01:14:21.420 argument that I barely know the guy, I have no relationship to him. He was staying so much in

01:14:25.900 the apartment that the Israelis literally took over security for the apartment. So the maids and any, 0.88

01:14:32.480 and any guests that, that went in and out of the apartment had to go through background checks and

01:14:38.180 had to be confirmed and, and coordinated with the Israeli consulate at the, at the UN. And at one

01:14:44.560 point.

01:14:45.000 All the time or just when Ehud Barak was there?

01:14:46.980 It seems like, it seems like all the time because there's a, uh, the, the handler is this guy named

01:14:52.340 Rafi who's in the emails. Um, he turns over and, and you see Barak's wife. He's like, all of a sudden

01:14:57.240 she's getting texted by another Israeli official. And he's like, oh yeah, I have, I have the file

01:15:01.360 now. Let, you know, let me know who, you know, who's going in and who's going out. We're going to,

01:15:05.540 you know, we're, you know, and Epstein approves like drilling of holes to put in the security

01:15:10.620 equipment. Uh, it can be controlled, uh, remotely. Uh, so that's at least 2016, 2017. Uh, and so that's

01:15:18.680 a level of coordination and connection between the Israeli government and Barak and Epstein that,

01:15:25.340 you know, undercuts a lot of what has been said in the past. Netanyahu also said, I think it was

01:15:30.120 even this week. He said, you know, his friendship with, and his relationship with Barak shows that

01:15:35.300 actually he had nothing to do with Israel because Ehud Barak is, you know, pals around, uh, with far

01:15:41.780 left anti-Israel, anti-Zionist, you know, radicals. It's like, well, how many, you know, anti-Zionist

01:15:50.160 radicals is the U.S. is the Israeli government kind of providing security for when they're

01:15:55.480 staying at Epstein's apartment. So it kind of undercuts that. Yeah. Yeah. As well. And he

01:15:59.640 served as, you know, Netanyahu's minister of defense in 2013 as well. They were political

01:16:04.160 rivals. But now they don't like each other, but now those two don't like each other at all. But

01:16:08.000 which is why, maybe you got all sorts of heat after he tweeted out that article saying

01:16:11.720 that, uh, Epstein clearly was working for Ehud Barak and that it's totally fine to ask whether he was

01:16:17.120 Israeli intelligence. And now he's kind of like being like, well, he wasn't working for the

01:16:21.200 Israelis because he was working for Ehud Barak. It was like, okay, whatever. These two don't like

01:16:25.480 each other. But the bottom line is you can ask whatever the fuck you want. I'm sorry. I'm sick 0.99

01:16:29.600 of people trying to word police everybody. It's like, you can ask these questions. These are fine

01:16:34.820 questions for any reporter to ask when trying to figure out who and what Jeffrey Epstein was.

01:16:39.440 And eventually we'll know the truth. We're starting to know the truth right now. Um, let's keep

01:16:44.860 going cause there's some other people in there I want to get to. And that brings me to, uh, Bill

01:16:49.160 Clinton, who looks like on the, uh, on the Epstein plane 17 times. Um, that's a lot or six, 16 times

01:16:59.920 according to a CNN analyst analysis. Uh, he denies ever having visited Epstein's Island and says that

01:17:08.300 he cut ties with Epstein before he was charged, uh, in 2006, he, he pleaded guilty in 2008, um,

01:17:17.700 and didn't know about his crimes. That's what Clinton says. Now he's going to be deposed by the

01:17:21.680 house oversight committee at the end of this month. So that'll be interesting, but there's a lot in here

01:17:26.000 about Bill Clinton in these files, like the picture of him. This came out in the previous dump,

01:17:31.520 which was a couple of weeks prior to this one in the hot tub with some girl with her face blacked out. 1.00

01:17:36.680 I mean, like, I don't know who that girl was or anything. I'm just saying like Bill Clinton seemed

01:17:40.700 to be really tight with Jeffrey Epstein. Now he wants just like Bill Gates to act like he barely

01:17:45.360 knew him. What do we glean about Bill Clinton from these emails and documents? Anyone? Yeah,

01:17:52.620 I'll jump in Megan. I mean, I think, um, it's important to keep in mind also that Epstein appears,

01:17:57.020 I believe 17 times on the white house logs, uh, when Clinton is president, uh, in 1992,

01:18:03.500 the Buzzfeed reported on this actually that in 1992, the state department seized a five-story

01:18:09.520 mansion overlooking central park from the Iranian government and then rented it to Jeffrey Epstein

01:18:16.040 until 1997. Apparently then the state department went to court against Epstein, uh, for this. Um,

01:18:23.640 but it, I mean, so, I mean, I think the other thing I was gonna say about Clinton, the other thing I'm so

01:18:27.260 struck is how comfortable everybody was having their photograph taken. You have to have,

01:18:31.440 if you're out there cavorting with, you know, young women in the way that they were,

01:18:35.320 you have to be very trusting in Epstein. And that's one of the things I'm so struck by

01:18:40.280 is Epstein was just such a master manipulator. He was constantly in service of everybody. He

01:18:45.880 raised money for Larry Summers, his wife. He was always sort of two steps ahead knowing how do I

01:18:50.840 get Larry Summers to be able to spend more time here? I have to, you know, make his wife feel good 1.00

01:18:54.880 about me. Um, Epstein was just a master of it. And also advised Larry on his affair partner.

01:18:59.600 Right. At the same time. Yeah. It was also such a dear friend. What about wingmaning Michael?

01:19:02.820 Yeah, wingmaning him. And so, I mean, and then I think also pointing out just another Iran-Contra 0.77

01:19:07.500 connection is that MENA, uh, Arkansas had an airport that was used, uh, for, uh, as part of the CIA's

01:19:15.060 trafficking of cocaine, uh, to raise money for the Contras. And that was going on while, uh, Bill Clinton was

01:19:20.660 governor of Arkansas. So, I mean, you just get a picture here of somebody that, that people were

01:19:25.080 very comfortable with Epstein. They felt protected there. They felt like there wasn't really any risk

01:19:29.420 for them. Um, you know, we haven't talked about it, but, you know, one of the justified cancellations

01:19:34.720 appears to be the, the trouble that, uh, Lord Mandelson and Britain got into for sharing what appeared to be

01:19:40.740 secret financial information. So you see, I think the picture I get from it. Lord Mandelson was the UK

01:19:46.820 ambassador to the United States. Yes. And what exactly was he doing, Michael? Well, at one point

01:19:52.460 he shared information with Epstein in advance of an announcement that was going to be made about

01:19:56.520 the bailout of Greece. Uh, I believe that was 2010 and, uh, gave that, I mean, if you gave forewarning

01:20:03.920 of the bailout of Greece, the stock market, you know, would go up after they announced that because

01:20:07.800 everyone was concerned about the, uh, this was still during the great financial crisis from, you know,

01:20:13.100 2007 to, you know, an ongoing. And so the Greece deals, I think after that, the stock market did

01:20:18.640 boom. And so if you had inside information there, I mean, the picture I have is that Epstein had was,

01:20:25.340 was probably not like a formal asset. I don't think he, I mean, I would be, I don't get the sense that

01:20:31.460 he actually worked for the government. He struck me as just somebody that had a lot of people, a lot

01:20:36.700 of friends in very high places, had a lot of protectors in a lot of different places. I mean, I mean,

01:20:41.400 Kathy Rumler, I mean, she's just one of the most powerful attorneys in the United States, like 0.92

01:20:45.740 already by, uh, you know, 2008 to go get that job under Obama in the white house as white house

01:20:52.360 counsel, um, for her to then go work for Epstein. I mean, Epstein just had incredibly powerful,

01:20:56.960 uh, you know, people all over the place, department of justice, uh, you know, likely, you know,

01:21:02.480 obviously the Israeli government, um, you know, likely other intelligence agencies.

01:21:06.000 A lot of time with Ehud Barak though. A lot, a lot of time. Yeah, though, interestingly enough,

01:21:09.460 there was a moment there where he's, he's giving job advice to Ehud Barak and it just struck,

01:21:14.560 it just seemed much more like the kind of banal corruption that we're all sort of used to in

01:21:20.380 terms of advising Ehud Barak on how to make money after he didn't come, I mean, Epstein didn't come

01:21:26.120 across as like Ehud Barak's, you know, intelligence contact. He just came across as what he was,

01:21:32.820 which was somebody that was an extremely skillful, uh, uh, operator that was really excellent at

01:21:40.660 hiding money, moving money, um, at people skills. And was, it was basically, I would suspect if I

01:21:46.620 had to guess that he was, you know, used by in, you know, having deals with, uh, both the Israeli

01:21:52.100 government and the U S government. Yeah. And let me add one thing for three decades or so. Like,

01:21:55.980 let me add one thing that was saying, cause I think, you know, he's onto something there,

01:21:59.200 but there's also this like total absence of any membrane between some high levels of

01:22:05.380 intelligence companies and, and the kind of U S and Israeli intelligence community. And in that

01:22:11.060 conversation that he's referring to, uh, they kick around the idea of, of, uh, Ehud Barak working

01:22:18.180 with Leon Panetta, another former minister of defense and, and CIA director and setting up this

01:22:24.340 shop. That would be the two of them as the heads and the, uh, the lieutenants of each would be their

01:22:29.680 longtime protégés. It would be Yoni Korin. So it is an Israeli intelligence asset and a deputy,

01:22:35.200 um, to Barak who also stayed in that same apartment. Um, and it would be Jeremy Bash

01:22:41.120 on the side of Panetta, Jeremy Bash, the ex-husband of Dana Bash actually, but a former chief of staff

01:22:48.580 over at the CIA. So like one of the kind of like most plugged in people in the intelligence

01:22:53.800 community. And as the, like the saying is, there's no such thing as a former intelligence

01:22:59.760 official. Like you're, you're, you're always part, you know, you're always somewhat in this,

01:23:05.760 in this environment. You can maintain your security clearances, for instance. And so

01:23:10.440 not anymore. Thanks. Well, there you go. Um, so the, so yes, there, but so he says,

01:23:17.640 if that's your, if that's your best contact, American Intel, like that's like, and you like

01:23:22.120 him the most and you feel comfortable with him now, that could be an interesting company for you guys

01:23:25.920 to set up. And as a company, it would then be exploiting its relationships inside all of the

01:23:32.080 different American intelligence companies, all of the different, uh, Israeli intelligence

01:23:36.660 organizations and then doing kind of freelance corporate slash state craft around the world.

01:23:43.780 So it's this, it's this weird world where it's not, it doesn't easily fit into, oh, this is bond,

01:23:48.860 you know, this is 007 and he's, he, this is his agent number and, you know, he gets paid every two

01:23:53.800 weeks and works for this particular agency. Uh, of course there's a way of being an asset without

01:24:00.080 being officially declared. Especially if you're a money man. Um, I want to, I want to talk about

01:24:05.380 Howard Lutnick, Howard Lutnick. The release of the Epstein files is not going well for our

01:24:13.180 commerce secretary at all. Okay. At all. Let's just start with what he told Miranda Devine on

01:24:20.060 her podcast a couple of months ago, prior to the release of these documents. But when it was pretty

01:24:26.620 clear more on Epstein was going to come out, here is what he told Miranda because he was living just

01:24:31.660 when you hear this thought, he was living right next to Jeffrey Epstein. They shared a wall and

01:24:37.020 he's talking about how he got an invitation from Epstein's maid to come over and have coffee with

01:24:41.880 Epstein. So Lutnick and his wife went over to have coffee with, with Epstein, who then is giving them

01:24:47.380 a tour of his mansion, which shares a wall with Lutnick and they walk into the dining room here.

01:24:53.840 Yeah. And he opens the doors and there's a massage table in the middle of the room and candles all

01:25:01.900 around and stuff. So I ask very insightful, cutting questions. I say to him, massage table in the

01:25:10.200 middle of your house? How often do you have a massage? And he says, every day. And then he like

01:25:17.780 gets like weirdly close to me. And he says, and the right kind of massage. Now my wife is standing 1.00

01:25:27.040 here. So she looks at me and I look at her and we say, I'm sorry, we have to go. And we left. And in the

01:25:41.560 six or eight steps it takes to get from his house to my house, my wife and I decided that I will never 0.72

01:25:49.160 be in the room with that disgusting person ever again. So I was never in the room with him

01:25:56.480 socially, for business, or even philanthropy. If that guy was there, I wasn't going because he's gross. 0.95

01:26:06.220 Except none of that was true. None of the things about never seeing him again or walking. I don't

01:26:15.480 know what he may or may have or not have said when he walked out of Epstein's house, but he definitely

01:26:20.140 saw Jeffrey Epstein again multiple times, engaged in business dealings with him and even went to his

01:26:26.760 private island, a little St. James in the Caribbean, because he testified to it under oath a week ago

01:26:35.080 on February 10th at a Senate hearing when he had to answer some tough questions about his

01:26:40.740 relationship. Here's that soundbite six. I did have lunch with him as I was on a boat

01:26:47.340 going across on a family vacation. My wife was with me as were my four children and nannies. I had

01:26:55.520 another couple with, they were there as well with their children and we had lunch on the island.

01:27:03.380 That is true for an hour. And we left with all of my children, with my nannies and my wife,

01:27:10.080 all together. We were on family vacation. We were not apart.

01:27:15.840 Okay. You brought other people, including for some reason, your children to Epstein Island,

01:27:20.360 but you went and apparently had them on your yacht. And in addition to that, CBS News reporting that

01:27:25.840 they were in business together. They each signed on behalf of their own limited liability companies

01:27:30.660 on December 28th, 2012. That's after he pleaded guilty to the solicitation of sex with a minor

01:27:37.360 prostitute. Again, that's not a thing to acquire stakes in a now shuttered advertising technology

01:27:42.680 company called Adfin. They also arranged calls. They plan to have drinks in 2011.

01:27:48.240 And then after that, then December of 2012 was when they went to the island and had follow-up

01:27:54.620 texts. Nice seeing you via the assistance. So for some reason he thought, I guess this wasn't going to

01:28:00.480 come out. And again, that's just, this is just fucking stupid because it was a self-aggrandizing tale, 1.00

01:28:09.020 he told Miranda Divine, who I'm sure is pissed that he lied to her face, thinking this wasn't going to 1.00

01:28:15.520 come out. And that he could make himself look super virtuous by smelling the disgusting Jeffrey 0.96

01:28:20.000 Epstein on, in one whiff, Emily, while walking into his dining room back in, it was like 2005 or

01:28:26.940 2004 or someplace early in the, in the aughts. And he knew full well, he had gone to little St.

01:28:32.280 James Island well after that. And after Epstein's conviction, even for a globe-trotting billionaire,

01:28:37.620 like Howard Blutnik going to that Island, that particular Island is not something that you forget,

01:28:43.300 let alone all of the other associations, the yacht, the meetings, the business transactions

01:28:47.800 that Blutnik, we now know had with Epstein. A lot of that is in, again, this new tranche that was

01:28:53.080 available in the Justice Department's library just in the last month or so. So him going out and going

01:28:58.320 so hard in the paint in that conversation with Miranda Divine, this is going to sound very quaint,

01:29:02.760 but it just reeks of low moral character in a very obvious way, especially to mislead the public,

01:29:10.480 to exploit the public's upset over a very serious matter of corruption, of sexual exploitation,

01:29:17.600 to exploit the public's concern over that in such a dramatic fashion, and then to be called within

01:29:23.000 a couple of weeks. I mean, Hillary Clinton is sort of doing the same thing right now. She just gave an

01:29:27.760 interview to BBC about how, oh, I met Ghislaine Maxwell a few times, and thousands of people came

01:29:33.560 to the Clinton Global Initiative stuff. Well, even CNN.

01:29:35.920 Wait, we have a little of that. Let me play it. It's not 15. Let's watch.

01:29:40.120 Just to be clear, do you regret the links that there have been?

01:29:43.200 You know, we have no links. We have a very clear record that we've been willing to talk about,

01:29:50.880 which my husband has said. He took some rides on the airplane for his charitable work.

01:29:57.400 I don't recall ever meeting him.

01:30:01.080 Did you ever meet Ghislaine Maxwell?

01:30:02.660 I did on a few occasions, and thousands of people go to the Clinton Global Initiative. So

01:30:08.440 it, to me, is not something that is really at the heart of what this matter is about.

01:30:17.760 They are accused and in both cases were convicted of horrific crimes against girls and women.

01:30:26.020 That should be the focus. And we are more than happy to say what we know,

01:30:31.720 which is very limited and totally unrelated to their behavior or their crimes. And we want to do

01:30:39.260 it in public. Just for the record, she and her husband had an entire war room set up to destroy

01:30:46.000 the young women who were accusing her husband of disgusting sex acts with underage girls in at 0.97

01:30:51.660 least some cases, but mostly overage. But she had no problem trying to destroy any woman who 0.99

01:30:56.380 came forward against her husband. So she can spare me on the fake moralism about the protection of

01:31:01.240 women. It's a fucking lie. Like everything coming out of her mouth. Go ahead, Emily. 1.00

01:31:05.080 Well, no, no, no. I was going to say, like, like Lutnick, this is a completely brazen lie.

01:31:09.560 CNN Andrew Kaczynski, CNN's K-file over there, has pointed out in these emails, we see how closely

01:31:16.080 Doug Band, if you've covered DC politics and you have for a while, you know that name. He was

01:31:20.760 Clinton's number two, just like Boris Nikolic was Bill Gates's number two. He was helping Doug Band

01:31:27.360 and Ghislaine Maxwell set up the Clinton Global Initiative with funding. And Ghislaine Maxwell herself

01:31:32.640 was pretty involved in the early stage of getting the Clinton Global Initiative off the ground.

01:31:38.240 There are emails back and forth that are just so gross between Doug Band and Ghislaine Maxwell,

01:31:42.900 where they're like calling each other boo-boo. And they're very, very, very close to say the

01:31:48.000 absolute least. And so that is absurd. That's a completely misleading statement. And on top of all

01:31:54.260 of that, people forget in that Epstein Netflix documentary that came out a couple of years ago,

01:31:59.280 there is a man, I think it was a maintenance man. His name is Scully. He's in the film saying he saw

01:32:03.720 Bill Clinton. This is a guy, his name's out there. He's out there. He's on camera saying he saw Bill

01:32:07.700 Clinton at the island. So there's some significant evidence that these are big lies from the Clintons

01:32:12.560 too. But I think, honestly, Megan, Howard Lutnick survives. I think the Clintons ride off into whatever

01:32:18.760 sunset is left for them. I don't know that there are going to be significant consequences in either

01:32:24.680 case. There aren't. There's not going to be significant consequences for any of these people.

01:32:29.820 I mean, for the most part, what we're seeing is just disgusting, debased behavior, not necessarily

01:32:36.480 illegal. And that's what's frustrating to so many of us, right? It's like, I don't know whether Bill

01:32:41.440 Clinton violated any laws with Epstein or otherwise. I'm pretty sure his Clinton initiative stinks to

01:32:47.200 high heaven and that needs a full vetting and investigation, his foundation. But I don't know

01:32:53.420 whether he committed additional crimes and we're never going to have accountability, even if he did.

01:32:57.600 Go ahead, Ryan. No, nannies, plural? I mean, come on. Seriously? I just got four kids. I got four

01:33:03.780 kids. Like, plural? Maybe they're super young. Of course. But come on. I mean, Howard Lutnick is a

01:33:10.520 billionaire, so it's like, I'm sure they outsourced virtually everything. And then he has the nerve to

01:33:16.460 lie about it. It's just like, so we're on to you. You knew this was coming out. Why would you be so

01:33:21.900 reckless? And where's your damn apology? You make yourself into a James Clapper. Not wittingly. 1.00

01:33:27.680 This is supposed to be a more transparent administration. And what President Trump

01:33:32.420 doesn't need is a liar in the position of Commerce Secretary about something as serious as your

01:33:37.920 connections with Jeffrey Epstein. And it was such a bold-faced lie, Michael. Like, not only was he in

01:33:45.200 a room with him, he went to the guy's island. He started a business with him, reports CBS. I mean,

01:33:52.240 about as bold as you could get.

01:33:56.060 You know, yeah, it's bad to lie. I agree it's bad to lie. I mean, I don't think he should have to

01:34:03.620 step down for it. He didn't lie under oath. You know, I mean, he would probably himself say it

01:34:08.920 wasn't a lie. He just forgot about it. I'm not supporting that at all. I agree it's bad behavior,

01:34:15.100 but I don't think he should. I don't think he should have to step down for what we've seen so

01:34:19.340 far. I'm not saying he should step down. He shouldn't step down. But wait a minute, though.

01:34:22.960 He should take responsibility for his lie. Not just to anybody, but to Miranda Devine,

01:34:28.760 who most of us on the right love and respect. He humiliated her, lied right to her face,

01:34:34.940 and he had to have known at some level this was going to come out. And he owes her an apology,

01:34:38.520 and he owes the rest of us an apology for lying to our faces. I will tell you, it's fine if he

01:34:43.300 doesn't step down. I don't believe one word that comes out of his mouth from this point forward.

01:34:46.300 Not one word. Not one word. Go ahead.

01:34:48.600 But if we're going to say that Rumler should step down because of her lie, because if she was

01:34:54.320 straightforward about what she was doing, she was literally his attorney. And so you'd be like,

01:34:59.220 look, it was my job to give him the best possible counsel I could. I gave that to him. I now realize

01:35:07.000 like the depth of his depravity. I regret it. But as an attorney, like I am, that's my job.

01:35:14.860 Lutnik wasn't his attorney. Like he didn't have to go to the island. There was no professional

01:35:19.060 reason. Maybe he couldn't get a reservation at Big St. James or whatever. But that's not an excuse

01:35:24.380 to then like lie about it. He was on a yacht. Right. I think he was good. Yeah, he would have

01:35:28.800 been fine. Yeah, he probably had some shrimp cocktail in the fridge. They were going to be,

01:35:32.280 they could get by. So it's the lie. It's the same thing. It's,

01:35:37.000 it's just, and he's such a good liar. That's what's so, I think, scary about the Lutnik.

01:35:42.960 It's like, he's, he's, he's this incredible storyteller. Patrick Bateman.

01:35:47.100 Moves in between the whisper and the like drama and like, and he's, he's got you captivated and

01:35:53.200 you're, and you're like, and then if, if the story would have ended with, and I never saw him again,

01:35:57.600 except for when we got into business together and went to an island when I went over, we had some

01:36:02.900 drinks and, and, and like, but otherwise never again. Other than that, and that business we

01:36:09.360 started for CBS. Other than that, no. By the way, on the Hillary Clinton thing, CNN's Andrew Kaczynski

01:36:14.840 points out, Maxwell was an honored guest at the prestigious Clinton Global Initiative Conference

01:36:20.280 September 2013. Like she was, she was at Chelsea's wedding. But, but Hillary tries to make it sound 0.99

01:36:26.820 like, oh, you know, maybe occasionally, but let thousands of people go. Are thousands of people

01:36:31.540 an honored guest and show up at your daughter's wedding? She's the worst liar of all. Dating the 1.00

01:36:37.520 guy who's throwing the conference? You can tell. Yeah, exactly. So she's a liar too. Megan, I will just

01:36:45.860 jump in and say, shout out to Norman Finkelstein. Norman Finkelstein is a very famous critic of

01:36:52.120 Israel. And he's, as far as I can tell, the only person who just bluntly says to Epstein, I think

01:36:58.360 Dershowitz has CC'd on the email, you know, to basically go to hell because of these various

01:37:04.120 accusations. He's the only person that seems to, you know, represent good moral values, you know,

01:37:10.340 and I think that, um, I think Tina Brown kind of did that too. Okay. Yeah. I mean, Norm, can I just,

01:37:16.600 we only have a couple of minutes left. Can you, can I ask you, have you seen anything in the files

01:37:20.920 about Trump that's worthy of study or follow-up? I've seen it. Oh, go ahead. Go ahead. No, no,

01:37:29.200 you go ahead. I was just going to say, I've seen a message that shows, it looks like Melania Trump, 0.97

01:37:34.920 reaching out to Ghislaine Maxwell in 2002. That may show, I mean, it's, it's not huge, but that's

01:37:40.460 one thing I haven't seen in a lot of places. Potentially Melania and Ghislaine had a little

01:37:44.160 bit of a friendship that we don't know much about right now per that email. Um, but that's just one

01:37:49.060 thing that I've come across. I think Trump largely benefited from the fact that this tranche, all these

01:37:54.560 documents seem to be dated like post 2006. And I think his friendship with Epstein was over then when

01:38:01.500 they were friends, they weren't, they weren't big on emailing or texting, or at least not as evidenced

01:38:05.800 by anything we've seen. Go ahead, Michael. Oh, no, I was, I was just going to say, um, you know,

01:38:11.180 following up on the Finkelstein thing is just, we saw, you know, this brought down a major titan of

01:38:15.640 the left in Noam Chomsky. You know, they, uh, they basically, you know, said that, or his wife said

01:38:21.960 that he was one of their best friends. Um, so I just think, yeah, it's a, it's an indictment of this

01:38:28.200 culture of the elites. And I think to bring down such kind of esteemed people, I mean, Chomsky was

01:38:34.140 always considered, even if you didn't like his politics, was always considered sort of above

01:38:38.040 reproach and highly moral person. And here he is just kind of waving these things away. So I think

01:38:43.080 it's an amazing, uh, just to look back on it. I mean, I just credit to all the conspiracy theorists

01:38:48.040 who demanded that the files be released against, um, so much elite pressure against it. And, um, I think

01:38:55.320 we've seen it's really bipartisan reaction. It's a very, I think it's a very, been a very positive

01:38:59.040 experience for the most part. I like that as an ending. Let's hear it for the conspiracy theorists

01:39:02.560 and we will put a pin in the Prince Andrew discussion for another day. Cause that that's

01:39:07.080 going to take a while. And we just, we're out of time guys. Thank you. Thank you all so much.

01:39:10.780 Uh, we come back in just a bit with the latest on the Nancy Guthrie investigation and there are updates.

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01:40:25.620 Welcome back to the Megan Kelly show. We couldn't wrap today without diving into the latest in the

01:40:29.200 Nancy Guthrie case. Sheriff Nanos making the media rounds yesterday, sitting down with multiple outlets

01:40:33.920 instead of just holding a press conference, which would be very easy if he would just stand up there and

01:40:38.840 take some cues. He revealed that investigators are now exploring genetic genealogy testing on the DNA

01:40:44.560 evidence collected after hitting a dead end in the CODIS database, the FBI's database of convicted

01:40:50.860 felons and also arrestees. There's been no match to those gloves that were found in the field. And it

01:40:57.720 appears he's also saying there's been no match from the DNA. That's not Nancy's nor any of her contractors

01:41:02.880 inside of her home that they found. So dead end right now, that doesn't mean that they can't do

01:41:08.480 something with the genetic genealogy, which we'll get into in a minute. Plus TMZ's Harvey Levin

01:41:13.220 announcing they've received yet another ransom. He just told Sean Handy last night that they would

01:41:20.160 not be announcing any more letters, but he just couldn't help himself. He got something and it

01:41:24.600 was a chance to be on TV. All that and more with our regulars who are back to discuss it all. Jim

01:41:30.260 Fitzgerald, also known as Fitz, he's a former FBI supervisory special agent and a forensic linguist,

01:41:36.180 also co-host of the Cold Red podcast. Maureen O'Connell, a 25-year-old, 25, she looks 25, but she's a 1.00

01:41:45.320 25-year veteran of the FBI and a co-host of the Best Case, Worst Case podcast. And also security

01:41:51.800 expert William Geddes. Guys, thank you all so much for being here. So a dead end, absolutely, on the DNA,

01:42:00.660 which is not a shock, right? I don't think it's a shock. And now they're going to try to do genetic

01:42:05.800 genealogy on them. But I mean, to me, you guys, this is like, now we're going to do genetic genealogy

01:42:10.740 on the two gloves that were found two miles from the crime scene. Like it was one thing to see. It's

01:42:14.820 fine. I guess it doesn't hurt. But is this even a real lead? These two gloves found two miles from

01:42:19.920 Nancy Guthrie's home when they found 16 gloves or 15 gloves. And like, they didn't come back with a hit

01:42:26.800 that matched anybody in CODIS, nor did they match the DNA that was found at the home.

01:42:32.880 So are we spinning wheels here or what, Maureen? No, we've got to look at those black gloves because

01:42:37.900 they match the gloves that the offender was wearing when he was up at the door. And also,

01:42:43.440 when you create distance between yourself and the crime scene, you know, you feel a little bit safer.

01:42:49.820 Maybe he got out just to, as I said earlier, as crass as it sounds, relieve himself,

01:42:54.920 and they fell out of his pocket or he reached in to pull his phone out or something to turn his phone

01:43:00.540 back on while he was standing there and the gloves fell out. I know it sounds crazy to a lot of people,

01:43:05.600 but if you've worked a lot with those gloves in your pockets, you know, they sometimes do fall out.

01:43:11.880 So I don't think that that's a dead end at all. I'm very disappointed, though, to your point about

01:43:16.160 the lack of CODIS hits or even because in CODIS, you can also get close relatives and we don't even have

01:43:24.220 close relatives for either of these DNA donors. So that's that's concerning. But the whole job of law

01:43:31.560 enforcement is you're just muddling, not muddling through, but you're working, working, working until

01:43:38.120 something pans out, which oftentimes can take a long time. And it's, you know, it's hard being

01:43:45.240 patient, but patience is is a virtue. Here's one thing that does seem like a good lead, at least for

01:43:54.520 now. On Tuesday, law enforcement was in Nancy's neighborhood and two officials came out to the

01:44:01.460 side of one of her neighbor's homes with a ladder and appeared to be checking the surveillance camera.

01:44:07.800 On the neighbor's house and looking at a phone, CNN reported this and said they'd reached out for

01:44:15.240 clarification on what they were doing. But at Nancy's house, you saw Pima County Sheriff's

01:44:19.920 Department vehicles in the driveway. And then one person coming out of the house with a bag,

01:44:24.660 wearing blue gloves. So they're still, I guess, finding evidence in Nancy's. And there they are on

01:44:30.420 the side of the neighbor's home, looking at security cameras at the neighbors. And then the founder of

01:44:39.600 the Ring doorbell cam, Jamie Siminoff, was actually on CNN and spoke to what could possibly be happening

01:44:48.600 there. Here is what Jamie Siminoff told CNN's Kate Boldon. When you see and we'll show the video again,

01:44:56.240 investigators up on a ladder and they say they're conducting follow-up, follow-up investigations or

01:45:02.260 referencing a phone, looking at this, looking at a camera. What are they likely trying to confirm?

01:45:07.140 Is there a range of possibility? I mean, it's hard to speculate. The footage, it does appear to be a

01:45:14.140 Ring floodlight camera. Again, it's pretty small in the picture, but it does appear to be one of our

01:45:18.500 floodlight cameras. The footage would be in the cloud if it was there. So maybe they're looking at the

01:45:24.400 angle of it. Okay. Now Fitz, that to me seems somewhat promising. If you've got the neighbor's

01:45:31.220 floodlight camera on Nancy's home and something could be, could have been recorded.

01:45:37.540 Promising 16 days ago though. Why are they just looking at that now? That's 101. I mean,

01:45:44.260 we talked on your show and others, Megan, every, you know, red light camera on the street and of

01:45:49.240 course getting closer. Of course, uh, Nancy's house itself, which they finally got the, uh, you know,

01:45:54.080 the video off of that. I don't understand why they even have to go up on a ladder to do anything. I

01:45:58.800 mean, it's in the cloud as the, as the guest on CNN said. So, uh, yes, this of course should be

01:46:03.940 looked at. It should have been looked at. And I'm not here to criticize people. This is one of the

01:46:07.980 basic things. And, and, and, you know, uh, crime scene one-on-one nowadays, anyway, get all the

01:46:13.620 nearby cameras you can, search warrant or subpoena, whatever it takes. I'm surprised it took this long

01:46:19.260 unless it's, they're going back for something else that was missed the first time around with that

01:46:24.820 camera. So good news. They're doing it. Maybe could have done 16 or 17 days ago.

01:46:31.480 Well, same with that, uh, the search on the helicopter for the connection with her pacemaker.

01:46:35.760 It's like, sure. Glad to see you doing it now. Would have loved to have seen it day one,

01:46:40.260 two, three, four, and thereafter. Will, your thoughts on, um, the gloves not matching. And

01:46:45.040 we believe the sheriff is a little ambiguous, but we believe he's also said that there's no

01:46:48.440 matched Dakotas from the DNA they found in the house. And also the fact that now they're getting

01:46:53.240 around to the neighbor's ring cam on the floodlight. Well, I think they've got, I think they've got to

01:46:58.880 sort of process any evidence that they potentially can gather and, uh, either see it as valid and

01:47:04.940 viable. And it actually leads them to perhaps another piece of evidence that they can potentially

01:47:10.060 springboard from, uh, to trying to identify and, and saying the identity of who that individual

01:47:16.400 was that was at Nancy's house. Um, but ultimately it is, it's pepper seeds. It's, uh, it's all this

01:47:22.940 intelligence, all these little bits of evidence, uh, they will all gather together, hopefully in a big

01:47:27.400 picture that can then form a better understanding of exactly what went on and who was possibly

01:47:33.700 involved. I agree with Fitz entirely on the camera, on the neighbor's house and why they're doing it

01:47:39.400 right now, uh, really does surprise me because I would have hoped one of the first things that would

01:47:44.140 have been done by even a junior officer would be to go around, map up every single house that had a

01:47:50.100 camera to inquire with the homeowner, whether it was still working. And there's a chance they may have

01:47:55.920 been up on the ladder because maybe the user or the home, the homeowner that the camera was attached

01:48:01.700 to their residence, uh, may not have registered their details, maybe didn't have a live connection

01:48:06.200 or had lost it at some point and logged out. So again, it's seeing whether it actually has any

01:48:11.180 power still to it. And there's every good chance. Maybe it didn't have any power. And if it didn't,

01:48:16.200 then obviously that's not going to bear any fruit, but all the cameras, the entire route,

01:48:21.400 and as Fitz said, uh, even any red light cameras, uh, it should try and chain a daisy chain,

01:48:27.560 almost, um, the, the access, the, by this individual and the egress in which direction

01:48:33.220 do they leave? What was the vehicle? Can they identify a license plate? All that sort of intrinsic

01:48:38.140 intelligence. So now they're going to go try genetic genealogy for the DNA that they've recovered

01:48:45.000 on the gloves. And again, the reason I say it's ambiguous, whether they've gotten a match in CODIS

01:48:50.780 or not on the DNA inside the house is because the sheriff is, you know, it's not that precise

01:48:55.400 with his language. And Jonathan Hunt of Fox news asked him, is there a CODIS match from the DNA in

01:49:02.000 the house? And he said, no, which, okay. That's why in our AM update this morning, we reported that the

01:49:09.680 sheriff says no, no match, um, from the DNA in the house. And I think the FBI actually also said that,

01:49:16.060 but then later that day, the Pima County Sheriff's department put out, or today was today, put out

01:49:21.920 something suggesting they're still testing the DNA in the house. So just put an asterisk after it. We

01:49:27.600 don't, as is, has become typical. We don't totally understand what the sheriff is meaning to say.

01:49:34.560 Um, but genetic genealogy is hot. It is the future of law enforcement. It is very, very hot. It's

01:49:41.540 amazing how they like CC Moore, who's been on the show a couple of times. Um, she's the, the godmother

01:49:47.760 of it. And, um, she, she was saying, this is why you're not going to have serial killers anymore in

01:49:54.820 the United States because it's just to like touch DNA doesn't have to be yours that they find like in

01:50:01.480 their database. It can be your sixth cousin and CC Moore when she's sicked on the case of, okay,

01:50:06.920 we can tell that this touch DNA we found on this crime scene belongs to someone who's a distant

01:50:12.300 relation, um, to, you know, our, whatever we can find that it's this, it it's, it's related to this

01:50:19.440 person who we got a hit off of, but we know it wasn't this person who's in our CODIS database

01:50:23.400 because this person is a hundred years old and in hospice. So you start from that hundred year

01:50:28.880 old person in hospice and you start drawing circles around the person and getting to all

01:50:33.020 their relatives until you can get closer and closer and closer in this case to Tucson, Arizona

01:50:37.000 and somebody who might be living there. And then this is how she does it. She figures out who did

01:50:41.020 that person marry? Who are their children? Who are their grandchildren? Who did they marry?

01:50:44.440 Where are they from? She pulls up birth announcements. She pulls up death announcements.

01:50:48.120 She actually came on and explained it with respect to the Kohlberger case on, on, cause you know,

01:50:52.100 in that case they grabbed his trash and, um, did, did testing and that's how they often do it.

01:50:56.540 They grabbed your trash, which is why Brian Kohlberger was putting his trash into his neighbor's

01:51:00.540 bin. Um, in the moment he was arrested, he was doing that by the way. Anyway, here she is 0.98

01:51:06.220 describing the process and because this is what's now going to be done to the DNA on those gloves

01:51:10.180 and probably also that found in Nancy's home. This is pretty common when investigative genetic

01:51:16.320 genealogy has pointed law enforcement toward a certain individual or family, and they'll do what's

01:51:22.000 called a trash pull. If they can't just follow that person and pick something up that they dropped,

01:51:26.560 then they'll typically resort to waiting for that person to put their trash out on the curb.

01:51:31.140 And most States allow this. It's considered abandoned at that point. And then they go through the trash

01:51:37.020 and try to find an item that might have DNA on it. But when it's a home like this, a household where

01:51:42.340 there's multiple people, they don't know exactly whose DNA they're going to get. So in this case,

01:51:47.200 they found a male sample of DNA and tested it and it wasn't the suspects. However, they were able to

01:51:53.980 perform what is basically a standard paternity test comparison to the profile from the button on the

01:52:01.180 sheath and determined that that individual's DNA from the trash was the father of the individual who

01:52:07.760 left his DNA behind at the crime scene. So are we feeling excited? Let me ask you the fits about

01:52:14.920 the genetic genealogy possibilities here. Um, this is very close to home, uh, for me, Megan,

01:52:20.300 because the first case I remember as a little boy growing up in Philadelphia was the boy in the box

01:52:27.020 case and late fifties, a little boy found in a box and sort of the outskirts of Philly still in the

01:52:32.680 city limits. No one knew who he was. Everyone wanted to know this guy, this little boy's identity.

01:52:37.460 The V-Doc society, I've been wearing this pin. I think it's on this side, uh, every day,

01:52:41.320 everywhere I go, they're a cold case society in Philly. Finally, after all these leads all around

01:52:47.300 the world, who is this little boy? We got to give him a name about two, three years ago through

01:52:53.520 genetic DNA. Uh, and I think CC may have had some work in it. I'm not sure that little boy was finally

01:52:59.760 identified from West Philadelphia. They can put a name on his tombstone. Now he wasn't Potter's field.

01:53:05.160 The V-Doc society moved him. I'm also, so that was, that was great. A great accomplishment there

01:53:10.500 with genetic. We'd sort of figure out who killed him, but now we at least know his name and his

01:53:14.580 parents are unfortunately deceased. I worked a case in Lancaster PA as a profiler in the early

01:53:20.100 two thousands. It was the 25 year anniversary of a woman who was raped and murdered in her home.

01:53:26.020 And I just did a TV show called, uh, uh, Philly homicide. And, uh, with my friend Chris McMullen,

01:53:31.780 who's the host and that case came back, they finally solved that one with genetic DNA. And

01:53:36.120 I don't want to give too much away, but they actually went to Italy and found the town where

01:53:40.220 this DNA was originally resulted from, and they could put it all together in Lancaster and come

01:53:45.300 up with their suspect. It is amazing what can be done now. Uh, uh, with this, this type of

01:53:51.460 acknowledgement with this DNA and not just serial killers, but serial rapists, anybody leaving any

01:53:56.720 fluid behind at a scene, they're going to get identified. Let's just hope we have something

01:54:00.900 here at Mrs. Guthrie's house. Yeah. The problem for us here is we don't know if the abductor's DNA

01:54:07.380 is on those gloves or if the DNA they have found inside the house that doesn't match Nancy or one

01:54:12.820 of her service providers is in fact the perpetrators. You know, we could just be testing. I don't know.

01:54:18.540 Maybe she forgot that she had a dog walker come by, you know, two months ago, or maybe it's DNA from

01:54:23.780 when she had Savannah visit last. And one of Savannah's friends came over. Like, we just don't even know

01:54:29.260 that we're, it's not like we found, it's not like we saw the guy open up the doorknob with an,

01:54:34.420 with a naked hand. And like, we know the DNA we're testing on the doorknob belongs to the

01:54:39.340 perpetrator. So this is, we have to do it. I agree with you, Maureen, but like, man, we're spending a

01:54:43.440 lot of time running down DNA that may have absolutely nothing to do with the crime scene. Here's one more,

01:54:50.060 Sot of C.C. Moore talking about how, because they go to the public databases that have people's DNA

01:54:59.320 in them. And it's not, they're not supposed to go to 23andMe or Ancestry.com or Heritage.com,

01:55:07.280 which are private. That's where the four of us would go if we wanted to see like,

01:55:11.980 how Scottish am I, you know, or what diseases might be latent inside of me. Those are not supposed

01:55:17.500 to be accessible by the feds, but here's C.C. explaining. You're using a website, not 23andMe,

01:55:23.460 not Ancestry.com called GEDmatch. And my understanding is the way you populated this GEDmatch,

01:55:31.320 because you point out you need as many samples on there as possible, is by encouraging people

01:55:36.780 who are into this, who would like to connect with other relatives, to take their 23andMe,

01:55:42.920 their Ancestry.com results and upload them to GEDmatch and to widen the chances that they'll

01:55:49.440 connect with somebody. Right. So GEDmatch was started by two friends of mine, Curtis Rogers

01:55:54.540 and John Olson back in 2010, 11. And of course, when it started, there was no one in there. So we

01:56:01.140 had to convince people to download their raw data from one of the other sites, which at the time was

01:56:07.440 23andMe and family tree DNA and upload to GEDmatch. And so it was just a small site, kind of a

01:56:14.280 playground for more advanced genetic genealogists. It was where we could try out new tools. We could do

01:56:20.580 cross-company comparisons. So if you tested at 23andMe and I tested at family tree DNA or later

01:56:27.620 Ancestry, we could both upload there for free and then compare our data looking for those long

01:56:33.420 identical shared segments. Okay. But here's the thing, Will. In Kohlberger, they tested the DNA.

01:56:43.620 They found out that knife sheath against GEDmatch or GEDmatch, and they did not get a match because

01:56:51.140 this is a much smaller database than if you were to include 23andMe and Ancestry and Heritage and all

01:56:56.340 that. And they compared the DNA anyway to those private companies' DNA. It became a big issue in

01:57:07.280 Kohlberger. Brian's defense attorney wound up trying to exclude the evidence, saying they violated the

01:57:16.000 DOJ's policy not to take advantage of the private databases because of the general skepticism and fear

01:57:23.420 people have of the government having access to their DNA profiles. And the judge denied the motion

01:57:30.100 saying that's, you know, they may have violated a DOJ policy, but that doesn't make this inadmissible.

01:57:36.160 And of course, they wound up having Brian Kohlberger's cheek swab by the time they went to

01:57:41.680 trial and then settled it. But like they had, there was a zero doubt that they had found the right guy.

01:57:46.840 In any event, couldn't they potentially do the same thing here? Get a warrant or beg the companies?

01:57:57.260 That's what somebody was saying. I would beg Savannah Guthrie to go to all the companies and say,

01:58:03.580 please give us permission because you can give us permission. It's not a violation of law to let

01:58:08.400 us have access to this so we can see if there's a match to find this kidnapper.

01:58:12.740 Yeah, I'd agree, Megan. I think that there are two fundamental flaws potentially with this DNA

01:58:19.620 search on this from these elements that they've captured. The first of which is,

01:58:29.020 you know, will it make a match? And one of the problems is, is that with many of these private

01:58:33.660 DNA companies, most of the people who've contributed or donated their DNA have been doing it willingly and

01:58:41.260 they've paid for the process to try and find out those, the answers to those questions you mentioned

01:58:45.820 earlier about themselves personally, you know, their ancestry and whatnot. But the problem is,

01:58:51.880 is do we believe that the individual that we've seen on the ring doorbell, is that someone who would

01:58:58.900 go voluntarily himself by his own omission and submit a sample basically to try and find out this

01:59:06.140 information? That's, I think that's a bit of a lottery. And I think the second issue, as you rightly

01:59:10.400 say, is these are private companies. This could open up a nest of viper, so to speak, for many of the

01:59:17.820 individuals who have contributed their own personal data. This is private personal data, which they have

01:59:24.300 been assured by those companies would not be revealed unnecessarily. So there may be some serious

01:59:29.820 legal implications. The, you know, the other two on the panel may come back with a suitable

01:59:35.080 explanation as to why it may not. But my concern would be, I think there will be a lot of people

01:59:39.760 who may be on the fringes of criminality, who may have submitted that DNA, which is going to

01:59:44.540 give a lot of very revealing personal information about themselves, concerned that the DOJ is accessing

01:59:51.120 it and could, whilst they're there, harvest all sorts of other data.

01:59:54.440 That's the, that's the risk. It was CeCe Moore who said, if I were Savannah, I'd be going to

01:59:59.700 Ancestry.com and 23andMe, I think had to file for bankruptcy, but they're still around like some,

02:00:04.820 some remnant of it. In any event, it was CeCe Moore saying, if I were Savannah, I'd go to them and I'd

02:00:09.800 beg them to please let, let the FBI have access to their databases, which is interesting that it's

02:00:15.420 voluntary. You know, they could do it. It's like the companies don't really have an incentive to do it

02:00:19.780 because I mean, already they're struggling. The reason 23andMe was filing for bankruptcy, I just,

02:00:26.100 I don't want to like completely get it wrong, but I'm pretty sure they had to file for bankruptcy

02:00:28.740 is because it's a one and done kind of service. You pay your a hundred dollars, you get your DNA

02:00:34.000 analyzed and you never go back again. You know, it's like, it's not like the iPhone where they can

02:00:38.580 continue giving you shitty iOS updates on your phone, ruining your service. And then you have no

02:00:44.020 choice, but to buy a new one that now that's a business model that can stand the test of time.

02:00:48.660 But this with these private DNA companies isn't. And so it's, they're going to undermine

02:00:53.840 themselves even more. If now the message is you should upload and we'll tell you whether you have,

02:00:58.920 you know, the gene for Alzheimer's and also we'll tell the government as soon as they come knocking,

02:01:03.900 we're going to tell them whatever genes you have and also whether your brother's a criminal.

02:01:09.400 Yeah. I mean, there's, there's another quick question I'd like to pop in, which is,

02:01:12.240 what is their data retention policy? I mean, how long did this, they keep that DNA? Once you've,

02:01:18.660 spent your a hundred bucks, you've got your result. How long did they keep that data there?

02:01:23.380 There must be some public published policies for these companies, which say maybe they only hold

02:01:30.020 it for six months or maybe a year. And then to give capacity to their server or to their files,

02:01:35.120 What happens to the database?

02:01:35.660 They may get rid of it.

02:01:36.720 They may erase it.

02:01:37.260 They may erase it.

02:01:37.280 Go away. My team is telling me, I'm correct. They filed for bankruptcy in March of 2025.

02:01:41.140 You were going to say something, Fitz.

02:01:42.160 Yeah. You brought up the iPhone. I remember, I think it was 2014,

02:01:46.080 the mass shooting in San Bernardino, California. It was a Muslim couple and they shoot out with 0.99

02:01:51.800 police. They wind up dead. There's a cell phone next to them, one or two cell phones, 0.58

02:01:56.240 Apple phones. And you probably everyone remembers this.

02:01:59.580 And they tried to get the police, FBI, Hey, give us the code to the phone. We can see

02:02:03.500 who in Al Qaeda they're talking to or ISIS, whatever. And Apple said, Nope, not going to do it.

02:02:08.440 Not going to do it. It's kind of the same principle here. And apparently Comey was

02:02:12.340 director. He didn't do too many things right to my estimation, but he somehow got an Israeli 1.00

02:02:17.020 company that could break the software or had software that could figure out the code and

02:02:20.280 that they had their information there. So that to me, that's akin to what we're talking about

02:02:23.940 here with the rights of people who submit their information. There are some DOJs that I wouldn't

02:02:28.240 have a problem with my information. Like maybe right now there are others I wouldn't necessarily

02:02:32.940 trust. That's kind of the big brother aspect of it all. So I kind of get where they're

02:02:37.640 coming from, but you think there could be exceptions with a special kind of a warrant,

02:02:41.660 special kind of a court order. And every once in a while, it could be done for the case like this.

02:02:47.020 I mean, with the permission of the company, you could do it, but you know, the ideal way of doing

02:02:50.440 it, Maureen is to keep it quiet. You know, I think one of those companies, yeah, I would quietly say,

02:02:57.780 okay, we'll do it. But for the love of God, don't publicize that we worked with you,

02:03:02.040 but there's so much scrutiny on this case. I think they all know we're going to know if

02:03:07.780 they give it over for analysis by the FBI. I think they'd also have a job, Megan, to reverse

02:03:13.460 engineer for it to be admissible in court. So if it was a more covert operation to do that DNA match

02:03:20.200 through those organizations and those organizations were compressing it.

02:03:24.340 I mean, in Kohlberger, she did not exclude it. Or I can't remember, it was a he at that point. 1.00

02:03:29.880 The judge did not exclude it, but you don't want to run the risk if you don't have to. But I mean,

02:03:34.060 there's so much pressure on the cops in this case, Maureen, like they, I don't know, you tell me

02:03:38.560 whether they'll be tempted to try to go to Savannah to ask her to appeal to the private DNA companies or

02:03:43.740 whether the FBI might just do it. In Kohlberger, they just did it. I think they just have the ability

02:03:50.860 somehow to access it. Well, yeah, because I'm remembering if you can if you know, you can come

02:03:55.900 up with a D with a DNA STR, which is like a license plate. It's like 40 numbers that you can submit

02:04:02.720 into CODIS and everything like that. But if you're trying to do the SNP, the SNP, which they need to do

02:04:09.000 a forensic genealogy upload, that's like a novel. So that's a whole different ball of wax. So we are

02:04:15.900 not even to the point right now that we've been made aware yet that the DNA that they have enough

02:04:22.460 DNA or the right kind to create a SNP. And although Cece Moore is the godmother of forensic genetic

02:04:29.080 genealogy, my good friend from FBI LA, Steve Kramer, and now Steve Bush also, they're the godfathers of

02:04:37.200 it. And they're friends with Cece. They just had lunch with her the other day. But they were explaining

02:04:42.200 the whole difference to me and how we're not even at the place yet where we know that we have a SNP

02:04:49.100 unless they have it and they haven't told us. Right. You need you do need a hit to somebody like

02:04:56.400 there's got one of your distant relatives must have submitted their DNA to one of these organizations 0.65

02:05:03.780 for you to be potentially caught if you're the perp. But like if you're one of those people who's

02:05:08.820 lucky enough that not a single person in your circle around you or your distant family ever

02:05:14.340 gave the DNA, then you won't be caught this way. But it's getting rarer and rarer as people

02:05:20.220 continue to use these services. I want to keep going because there's a lot there's not a lot more to

02:05:24.140 get to. The sheriff, he gave a bunch of interviews yesterday. Gosh, there's I don't even know where to

02:05:30.460 begin. He he said that they are continuing to check the Nancy's ring cams for images, including of this

02:05:44.400 perp, including possibly of Nancy's egress from the house. And obviously, they're checking now the

02:05:50.520 neighbor's ring or nest cam, the ring cam. I think we just that's who we played the soundbite from.

02:05:56.000 And that same ring founder on CNN explained a little bit more about what they're doing to try

02:06:03.300 to search for these like right now. Possibly lost, but not deleted images that may still be stored

02:06:14.140 on like their central cloud or their central computer system. Let's listen to him.

02:06:19.540 They call it scratching. It's like the way it was described to me is you've got eight layers of paint

02:06:25.040 and you want to peel down to the sixth layer. But you get to that fifth layer, you might tear the

02:06:29.780 sixth layer. So there it's a delicate operation for them. This idea of scratching and what he's

02:06:36.020 talking about. What would you think? What is he describing here? And again, not to describe how

02:06:41.520 they would do it, but I would say just overall databases and how storage is. There's sometimes

02:06:45.980 remnant data that's stored. If you don't run, we run scripts. As soon as you delete a video at ring,

02:06:51.000 we run a script that basically takes it off of the server. If you're doing live view and you don't

02:06:54.980 have a subscription, we actually don't record it. So for us, we don't have these remnant data,

02:06:58.300 but remnant data in databases can exist if you don't run sort of a deletion script. So it's almost

02:07:03.240 like, to me, it's more like putting trash in your can in the kitchen and just haven't taken it out to

02:07:08.560 the street yet. So it's still in there until you basically take it out. So it is, I think what

02:07:13.380 they're describing is there's some data that somewhere it's hard. It could be in multiple places. It could be

02:07:18.800 sort of broken and they're trying to put it back together is what it sounds like they're doing.

02:07:22.740 Okay. So that's so interesting. What he's telling us there, Fitz, is it's a good thing Nancy had a

02:07:27.980 nest and not a ring. Because if you're not going to get the subscription service and you have ring,

02:07:33.740 there's no chance of recovering an image that the camera saw but didn't record. But if you have nest,

02:07:40.880 there is a chance that it is sitting there until the trash has actually been taken out.

02:07:47.700 And that and we saw you got you the three of us were together when the images came in of the

02:07:53.540 abductor. And we realized that that trash had not been taken out. And there is still a chance that

02:07:58.500 there's more trash sitting there that hasn't actually gone out to the the dumpster for the

02:08:02.500 garbage guy to pick up yet. Yeah, there's no doubt there are some tech people from the FBI Academy

02:08:08.180 Laboratory, the FBI Laboratory at Quantico working probably in the offices with the nest company with

02:08:14.960 their text. And who knows some other private sector people they're bringing in to do everything

02:08:19.180 they can to get into that, that type of information of these multiple levels of scratches. There's no

02:08:25.420 doubt highly proprietary information here and technology that even the ring guy we heard didn't

02:08:31.760 want to necessarily reference too much. I know they're probably similar setups, but they may have

02:08:36.520 their own specific designs. And yeah, he made it very clear with ring, you don't have a subscription,

02:08:41.140 you're one and done, or you're none and done, I should say. But with Nest, of course, you have

02:08:45.560 that chance of getting that information out. So they are working diligently on this and going back,

02:08:50.880 I hope, not just for that night, but you know, as far back weeks or months as they can, with every

02:08:55.820 camera they come upon, quite frankly, and hope they once have subscriptions, that would make it easy.

02:09:00.500 But they got to really mine these camera systems in every way they can with the most modern

02:09:06.280 technology, even in a way they have to sort of invent it like this Israeli company did what

02:09:11.100 their software to get into the password of an iPhone. So they're working on it. It's a question

02:09:15.440 of when they're going to find it and of course what they find. Well, let's hope this ring camera

02:09:22.100 on the floodlight of the neighbor, okay, which is not Nest, it's ring. So it won't have stored images

02:09:28.580 unless the neighbor has a subscription service. Let's hope that that neighbor has a subscription

02:09:34.160 service. Presumably they do, or ring would have said, we can't be of help to you. I mean, it's two

02:09:39.380 weeks later, so there's not going to be anything there. So presumably they do have a subscription

02:09:42.540 service. Otherwise, why would they be spinning their wheels? The sheriff was asked by Brian Enten

02:09:49.020 about additional cameras at Nancy's. Now keep in mind, Ashley Banfield reported that there was a Nest

02:09:56.880 cam in the front, that we already know, and that there was one in the back too, and that both of the

02:10:02.700 Nest cams at Nancy's were taken. And the sheriff has never confirmed anything about the back door.

02:10:08.520 He has never, he has said, we don't have the Nest cameras. So like whatever number there were,

02:10:15.880 they were taken. And he won't confirm forced entry. He won't say whether the perp got in through the

02:10:21.680 front door or the back door. But Brian did ask him about additional cameras in SOT 56. Take a listen.

02:10:27.980 I know that you and the FBI were able to get those surveillance photos off the camera in the front of

02:10:33.100 the house. Any progress on the other cameras? Can you do the same thing? Well, I'm hopeful. So

02:10:40.060 there's other cameras. Your question, will we get more? We've asked that Google, hey guys,

02:10:50.780 can you do this? And they said the very same thing. Sheriff, we don't think we can get anything,

02:10:57.140 but we'll try. And that's all we're hopeful. And so as of now, it's still just the video from the

02:11:02.560 front? Yes. Okay. So the sheriff, hard to hear there, but was saying there are more cameras.

02:11:08.560 He has said that before. He didn't specifically say it's an, it's another Nest camera, but he didn't

02:11:14.520 sound too hopeful in that particular soundbite. And it's been now more than a week since they found

02:11:23.900 the video of the abductor on the front porch, Maureen. So are we getting pessimistic about the

02:11:31.420 odds of recovering another needle in the haystack? I'm getting pessimistic about that and it hurts my

02:11:38.860 soul. But I do know that if you recall when the sheriff gave one presser, he said that with their

02:11:48.420 strong partnership, or no, it was Kash Patel who said with our strong partnerships with the private

02:11:53.500 sector, we were able to go in and help Google with their things. So I have faith that the FBI

02:12:00.160 people, if they're embedded in there and they're allowing them to work there, that they will have

02:12:05.940 the best luck because the FBI does unbelievable work. I've seen it. One of the guys on my team used

02:12:12.340 to do that work for the Bureau. It does take a lot of time. It does take a lot of patience and it takes

02:12:18.240 an unbelievable amount of experience and intelligence when it comes to these type of systems. Old ones

02:12:24.860 cobbled together with new ones with, you know, is there a SIM card attached? Does it have, is it in the

02:12:30.420 cloud? Is it on a recorder at the home? You know, all these things together and they're going to be

02:12:36.900 digging very carefully in every, down every single alley. So my hope is low. My expectation is low, but I'm

02:12:46.320 hoping that they're just going to come up with something great for us.

02:12:51.720 I mean, it would be the best place to get more, more evidence if they could possibly get anything

02:12:57.000 out of there. The sheriff also spoke with Fox News and Jonathan Hunt and had this to say about

02:13:03.040 exploring any connection in this crime to Mexico, Tucson, of course, where she lives, being an hour

02:13:11.580 away from the southern border. Here's what he said in SOT 53.

02:13:15.360 Any suggestion at all that Nancy Guthrie might have been taken across the border into Mexico?

02:13:22.580 Are you looking at that at all? You know, I'm sure the FBI has looked into that as well, but,

02:13:27.680 but no, I mean, we check all the leads we have. Um, we're like everybody else. We know where Mexico

02:13:33.800 is in relationship to this and certainly it's a possibility, but no, we have nothing to indicate

02:13:38.420 that. So this just in from Fox News is Michael Ruiz, a federal law enforcement source confirms the FBI

02:13:47.240 has contacted Mexican authorities in connection with the Nancy Guthrie case. So the sheriff says they

02:13:54.240 don't have any firm evidence that she's been taken across the border and says there's no indication

02:13:58.820 she was taken there, but we are contacting the Mexican authorities. Is this like the sheriff seems

02:14:06.860 every time he's talked about Mexico, he's like, no. And then we find out the FBI is talking. How can

02:14:12.640 he say no? We don't know who did it. I'd like explain that to me. Will like, why is he like, no,

02:14:18.240 it's not Mexico. How do we, how the hell do we know?

02:14:20.240 I don't know, Megan. And I have to say every single time I see an interview or any words coming

02:14:24.980 out of his mouth, uh, I'm almost aghast at his somewhat ambiguous and foggy answers to everything

02:14:32.440 or definitive answers when really, to be honest, he shouldn't be saying anything. I mean, again,

02:14:37.040 this is what I was saying. We were discussing last week, which is about, it's so important that

02:14:41.840 those updates that you are providing have to be as accurate as possible. They cannot be in conflict

02:14:48.920 with what the FBI may be saying or doing. And ultimately you're going to lose more and

02:14:53.720 more credibility. And the family, you know, Savannah and the other family members will

02:14:58.800 be losing their, their, their faith and hope in the capability of actually retrieving their

02:15:04.040 mother in whatever capacity that might be. Uh, I think again, the problem with the sheriff,

02:15:09.120 I mean, even going to the cameras point, he was said other cameras. So there was inevitably

02:15:14.200 more than one backdoor camera. That was the front camera also in terms of Google. And I've worked

02:15:19.480 with Google and I've looked, looked at also data retrieval on a number of projects and operations

02:15:24.080 investigations. And if Google were able to retrieve obviously the footage from the front camera,

02:15:30.860 from the, the Nest camera, obviously on the front door, then they should be able to retrieve the

02:15:35.920 footage from the ones at the back. And there should be a very quick interrogation of Nancy's

02:15:40.360 financials, looking at her credit card statements, looking at her bank account to see if she's got

02:15:45.280 a, a Ness subscription. You should be able to find that out literally within 24 hours.

02:15:50.640 Mm-hmm. That's a good point. The, the sheriff, I'm sorry. I, he's lost credibility with me. I

02:15:57.720 no longer believe the sheriff. Um, this is just one example, but the whole business, this is yet

02:16:05.440 another example of like, the sheriff seems to be making it up like no Mexico. Okay. I, I don't

02:16:11.080 believe you. I, I don't know whether it's true. It's not true, but I know that you don't know enough

02:16:14.480 to say that yet. And then the thing about whether the family member members have all been cleared.

02:16:20.160 This is the chronology. It's changed again. Here we are on Wednesday. It's, it's been changing every

02:16:27.420 day this week. Okay. Let me tell you on Sunday to the daily mail, the sheriff, nobody has been cleared

02:16:33.140 as suspects. Uh, on Monday in a press release, the family has been cleared as possible suspects.

02:16:40.700 NBC news reports that same day, absolutely no evidence was examined in order to get to the new

02:16:46.580 conclusion. So we knew the sheriff had pulled it out of his hat, right? Like when he said no one's

02:16:53.960 been cleared. And then the family has been cleared. We all said, Oh, they must've gotten a DNA.

02:16:58.000 Something, something came back. Like something got him there. No, NBC reported absolutely nothing

02:17:03.480 changed. It's just the sheriff just deciding to tell us they've been ruled out. And then he added,

02:17:09.860 and they've been ruled out from the first early days of the case. Well, then why did you tell the

02:17:14.080 daily mail on Sunday that no one's been ruled out? Why did you say that? Why did you say that every

02:17:17.760 day for the preceding 12 days that no one had been ruled out? So it seemed very clear that he was

02:17:22.560 trying to do the family a solid on Monday by just saying they're all ruled out. Then the FBI wouldn't

02:17:29.120 go that far. Just kind of had a no comment in response to his, the family's ruled out. Then

02:17:34.240 Wednesday, yesterday, uh, sorry, no Tuesday, which was yesterday. He comes out after the showtime and

02:17:42.080 said, the Guthrie, the Guthrie family has not been identified as suspects. They've not been

02:17:48.300 identified as a suspect. Well, that is not the same thing as being ruled out, being cleared. That

02:17:56.240 that's not the same thing at all. That's a massive walk back, which he did. And then he sits down with

02:18:02.460 Fox news is Jonathan hunt. And that he asks the sheriff, this is within an hour of him doing the

02:18:10.500 walk back of saying, well, they haven't been cleared. And this is what he says. Stop 51.

02:18:16.080 You are 100% certain that there is no connection between the kidnapping and the siblings or the

02:18:25.640 siblings, spouses, the Guthrie siblings. I am completely, I think we put out a statement

02:18:31.200 yesterday. I put it out 100% certain that this family has been completely victimized and the

02:18:41.820 re-victimization should not occur ever. No, I, Jim, you are a linguist. The, the, it's no,

02:18:53.380 none of it works. None of it does work. And these, uh, exonerations always bother me. And the John

02:19:00.720 Benet Ramsey case, the family was completely exonerated by the boulder. Not saying anyone in the

02:19:05.820 family killed the girl, but just a complete exoneration to me makes no sense. I'm on a

02:19:11.360 podcast right now. My, my own podcast called red. We're talking to the father of a woman killed in,

02:19:16.380 uh, British Columbia, uh, in 20, uh, 2008 and the family, uh, the police, their sound HPD have

02:19:23.580 completely exonerated her boyfriend and her boyfriend's mother. And now we have, of course,

02:19:28.320 uh, uh, the sheriff in this case, exonerating the family, unless you're putting handcuffs on someone

02:19:33.560 else with DNA evidence, uh, there is absolutely no purpose. And where's the DA in this? Can you

02:19:39.200 imagine being the district attorney? Somehow the family, you know, evidence points to a family

02:19:44.060 member, how much the arguments will be before the jury that will, the sheriff himself said they're

02:19:49.600 not involved. What did this change? You know, what, what political aspect came in and then you all of a

02:19:54.120 sudden change ideas here and they were exonerated, they're not. And it's all they need in front of a

02:19:58.860 jury, uh, you know, just to, just to make one person say, Oh, I'm not guilty. So there's no

02:20:03.660 purpose for these, these exonerations. You can say, we're not focusing on the family right now

02:20:08.360 and leave it at that and move on, but it doesn't mean you've closed the door. And, uh, unless there's

02:20:13.560 some, unless they're playing, you know, 90 chess and quite frankly, I don't think the sheriff is on

02:20:21.000 that level of a chess board of any way. Maureen, like Sunday, no one's cleared Monday. The family's

02:20:28.620 cleared Tuesday. Um, the family's, uh, not identified as suspects right now. He said right 0.99

02:20:35.640 now, then within an hour of that statement, the interview to Jonathan Hunt. So you're saying

02:20:40.460 they're 100% cleared. They've 100% been victimized, which is like, what, what is he doing?

02:20:50.600 He's really making it difficult for whoever the prosecution team is. And if I were on trial prep

02:20:56.500 with this, I, I know the first meeting with the prosecutor, we would just sit there and drop our

02:21:01.940 hand, our face into our hands saying, how are we going to circumnavigate this nightmare? Because

02:21:08.460 if he thinks he's not going to be put on the stand and just grilled left, right, and center

02:21:12.820 for all these contradicting statements, you know, it's just a disservice. In my opinion,

02:21:18.480 all of his jaw jacking is a complete disturbance, um, divergence from what should be important,

02:21:26.700 which is the investigation and the, uh, and the noble professionals that are carrying out all these,

02:21:33.080 you know, investigative leads and following these lines of inquiry, because this is just, um,

02:21:39.200 not helpful. And that's the nicest way I can say it.

02:21:43.460 Um, yeah, just be quiet about it. You know, it's well, it's like put aside Ashley Banfield's

02:21:48.680 reporting early on that her senior law enforcement source said that the brother-in-law may be the

02:21:55.180 prime suspect at this time. Put that aside. We, we all have been watching them tow the Guthrie car,

02:22:00.320 the Annie Guthrie car, who's married to Tomas. We watched them go into Annie and Tomas's house

02:22:05.220 in, in the dark hours of the evening and keep the lights off and take a bunch of photos. We watched

02:22:09.260 them come out of the house with what looked like evidence bags. Um, like we we've watched them be

02:22:14.840 asked specifically about Tomas and refuse to rule him out or rule out any family members.

02:22:20.980 And then suddenly one day, like magic, the sheriff says cleared, the FBI doesn't back it up.

02:22:26.880 And then the next day comes out and won't say cleared again, but just says, Oh, not identified as

02:22:31.000 suspects. And we're all supposed to be shamed out of discussing Tomas or Annie or anybody like we're

02:22:38.280 supposed to take his cue that it's not nice. He keeps saying it's mean. I don't know what,

02:22:42.760 like I'm gleaning that the sheriff may genuinely not think that this guy did it,

02:22:46.920 but I don't think we can say the FBI has ruled him out. And this seems like another example of

02:22:53.340 piss poor coordination on his part. I think it shows a lot more than that. I couldn't agree

02:22:58.500 more with what Maureen and Fitz have both said. What we're seeing here is his ego driving his

02:23:05.060 interactions and updates. And that's fundamentally all it is. And he's he's dealing with it,

02:23:09.940 as you rightly say, in a personal, not a professional fashion. Until such time as Nancy

02:23:16.400 has been retrieved, living or not, nobody can be discounted as a potential suspect. They can be

02:23:23.720 put on hold or put on ice temporarily whilst other inquiries are searched through. But,

02:23:28.160 you know, it is his ego and his really obscure and officious and obfuscating answers, which really

02:23:37.140 are baffling and embarrassing more than anything else. I think there are probably people in his own

02:23:41.760 department who are just biting the table, hoping for him to shut up and fingers crossed, you know,

02:23:48.340 someone should be stepping into his place. Being a spokesperson for the sheriff's department,

02:23:52.980 the sheriff himself, he's he's an embarrassment to his team. It's it's it's gotten out of hand.

02:23:59.460 It's just I mean, nobody believes him now. It's it's adding sort of a joke element to this case,

02:24:04.840 which is the last thing we need. There's a very funny guy online. I've been following him. He's

02:24:10.480 actually coming on the show tomorrow. We're going to talk about this. But he he's taken to calling

02:24:13.520 Nancy Nancy Benet Ramsey because it's just there's so many aspects, you know, of the case where it's

02:24:20.760 like, OK, I mean, is she in the basement? Did you check under the bed? Did you check the closets?

02:24:26.580 Because the sheriff does not instill confidence at this point. And it's not we're not used to it.

02:24:31.020 Like when the FBI handles a case, you guys know they say very little, but they are the ultimate

02:24:36.800 pros. They come out, they answer only what's asked and say nothing in excess of what they've decided

02:24:46.560 before they've gotten in front of the reporters. They're going to say it's utter message discipline,

02:24:52.620 Maureen. And that is not what we're seeing from the sheriff because he seems, frankly, too emotional.

02:24:58.480 Right. And you said it great. We keep our mouth shut. And part of the reason we do is because we

02:25:04.980 we understand through experience how many times we've had to pivot on and off of things.

02:25:09.720 You know that there are so many different machines moving at crazy paces right now that there's it

02:25:19.080 would be just it's just Daryl. It's just I don't know the word I'm looking for, but reckless, reckless.

02:25:27.180 It's reckless to to say that everyone's cleared when you have so many things going on. Now,

02:25:33.080 if there's nothing going on in the investigation, then it makes sense. There's nothing going on.

02:25:37.340 We're not doing anything. But I mean, even the simple thing where we don't even know how how

02:25:43.580 anyone got into the house. We're saying that, oh, well, on the timeline, if you look, it's it's

02:25:48.500 948 that they open the garage and it closed two minutes later. Well, there's a number of different

02:25:53.220 ways to open the garage, depending on your your device and how it's configured. You can open it with

02:25:58.720 a little clicker like this, which is probably what Nancy would have had in her purse. Or you could open

02:26:03.700 it, you know, through the keypad that we saw the the the the ERT team take from the side of the

02:26:11.680 garage. I believe that's what they were doing. I think I think would you guys agree that we saw them

02:26:16.400 remove that keypad. But the only thing, depending on how it's configured, the only thing that's really

02:26:21.960 going to keep a log of that entry is going to be an app. But if you're doing it, you know, in the old

02:26:27.900 analog way, if if it's configured in an in a way that that it can do all these different entry types,

02:26:35.600 you can have people coming in and out of that garage without any any log being produced on your

02:26:41.460 phone. So I well, you're making the point because Tomas was the one who dropped Nancy off allegedly at

02:26:47.080 948 that night after a night with Tomas and Nancy. I'm sorry, Annie playing games at their house.

02:26:52.800 And they said her garage, Nancy's garage door opened at 948 and closed at 950. But do we really

02:26:57.720 know that Nancy was returned at that hour? Do we know that she walked into the house? The pacemaker

02:27:03.140 and the iPhone may give us some clue. Presumably they've done phone analysis on Nancy's phone that

02:27:07.980 suggests she was back at home. But we don't know that because they do, Jim, keep going back to

02:27:13.000 Annie's house and taking pictures and so on. And so it is possible that law enforcement has seen

02:27:19.300 something suggesting we don't really know if if Nancy Guthrie was in her own home from 948 forward

02:27:26.440 that evening. Bottom line, we do not know that you are accurate. It's on the first day we've been

02:27:30.640 together, Megan. We've been discussing this timeline and we can't rule out some of these options. But

02:27:34.840 let me throw in a mitigating factor that we haven't discussed yet regarding the exoneration, if you will,

02:27:41.020 of the family. It's very possible the family themselves had requested the sheriff to make that

02:27:47.720 statement. You know, do your job for a week or so. Oh, yeah. Two weeks. That's what I think. And it

02:27:52.080 could be Savannah saying, look, you've got to do something here. My family didn't do this, I'm

02:27:57.080 convinced. And that's under that pressure. That's what happened. He's an elected official. There's a

02:28:01.140 lot of, you know, no doubt Nancy had a lot of friends there. He may be thinking of the next

02:28:05.180 election. OK, well, with any other evidence, no evidence at this exact moment pointing directly at

02:28:10.260 one of them. Sure, I'll come out and say this. So, yeah, I wasn't sure that was clear for your for

02:28:15.100 your audience or not, but just one. No, I agree. I think he said the day before that he really only

02:28:18.880 talks to Savannah and he doesn't talk to her that much. He said she's got like a team that he deals

02:28:23.180 with, but he barely talks to Tomas and barely talks to Annie. He said that. So to me, this is very

02:28:28.440 clear that Savannah does not believe her family is involved at all. I'm not surprised by that. And she

02:28:33.480 may be 100 percent right. They may they may not have had anything to do with this, but they have to

02:28:38.760 understand their fair game, given that they were the last ones with her and they're right down the road

02:28:43.040 from her. And they were the ones who shouldered most of the burden and taking care of her. And

02:28:46.700 I don't even know what her life insurance policy said or her will, et cetera. So like all of that

02:28:51.480 potentially makes them in the crosshairs. Every family member with a missing person understands

02:28:55.760 the family is going to be looked at and they're going to be looked at by the media. And there are

02:28:58.800 great, great, great things to having the media very interested in the Nancy Guthrie case.

02:29:02.700 Great things. And there are downsides, too. And this is one of them. If you're an innocent family

02:29:07.380 member and they keep talking about whether you had something to do with it. And it is a very small

02:29:10.900 price to pay for having this amount of media attention on your loved one's missing person's

02:29:16.560 case, because the media will help get this solved. The media has already come up with great leads,

02:29:21.220 great clues, great information. I'm sure that law enforcement is using and they will continue to.

02:29:26.200 But they're the ones who keep the public interested. And the public is the one that keeps the pressure

02:29:30.160 on the police. All right. So like you do not want the media to go away and you do not want the media

02:29:35.000 to stop asking questions. And much in the same way, you know, you can't be a public figure like a

02:29:39.780 Meghan Markle and go to all of the openings and then say, oh, but don't cover the mean things about

02:29:44.240 me. Don't say my show sucked. That's how this works, too. Like the media is involved because 0.89

02:29:49.740 you asked us to be there. You asked us to continue covering it. You keep putting out messages. We're

02:29:54.140 putting them on our shows. You can't say there can be no scrutiny of the family and you can't do it

02:29:59.860 directly and you can't do it through the sheriff. It's not how press works. We're going to keep this going.

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02:31:31.160 And we're back now with our panel. Okay, guys, so when we left off, we were discussing how you got to

02:31:54.400 take the good with the bad. The media is going to speculate. It's going to do its thing. It's going to

02:31:58.060 talk about possible suspects and possible leads. It's not all great, and it's not all rainbows and

02:32:02.580 unicorns either. Well, that's the nature of the game.

02:32:04.740 Yeah, absolutely. And I think I was seeing your piece that you did, Megan, about influences and

02:32:10.720 about influences actually contributing to the theory testing, to the possible suspects, to potential

02:32:17.480 avenues. In the same way as Maureen and Fitz and myself are exploring different avenues with

02:32:22.900 yourself as to what the actual sheriff is doing, what the investigation is looking at. And I mean,

02:32:29.360 we're seeing ourselves from a professional perspective, us doing this on The Daily Grind,

02:32:34.760 that there are so many flaws in how this process is being followed. And Maureen was bringing up,

02:32:40.200 obviously, during this break, you know, an interesting point about the family entering the

02:32:44.380 house. And I pass the bat on to you, Maureen.

02:32:46.360 Well, I just I was watching a breakdown on a that I've come to love in the last couple weeks,

02:32:52.820 which is called The Interview Room. And it's a bunch of season four season detectives that have

02:32:58.960 about 150 years experience in all kinds of things from patrol all the way through homicide and everything

02:33:04.780 in between and with the doctor on there. But they were breaking down a number of things. And the one

02:33:09.120 thing that really caught my attention was this, the things that are missing from the timeline.

02:33:14.560 And one of them was, how did the family enter the house? I always wondered, why is that such a big

02:33:20.380 when? When the family came over after mass? Sorry, I should have made that clear. When they came

02:33:26.080 over the day they found her, when they realized that she wasn't at the church service at her friend's

02:33:32.540 house, how did they get into the house? Did they go in the back door and leave it ajar? Did they

02:33:38.440 enter the keypad? Or because if you look at the timeline, it has what time she went in 948 the night

02:33:47.140 before and that the door closed at 950. Does anyone on earth really believe that an 84 year old woman 0.99

02:33:53.420 with a walker gets out of a car, walks through a garage, gets in the house and is in and the other

02:33:58.920 person gets out and within two minutes? And didn't the sheriff say at one of his first pressers that

02:34:05.680 the family helped her get into the house and gets settled? Well, there's no way all that's happening

02:34:10.980 in two minutes. You're like, hey mom, you good? Let me turn the lights on. Is everything cool? All

02:34:16.780 right, we'll see you tomorrow. You know, that's a five minute interaction. And I just don't understand

02:34:24.180 why something like, where did they enter? Could the back door have been ajar because that's where they

02:34:29.780 came in and they forgot to close it. Okay, that's a good data point. There's just silly things that

02:34:35.960 are missing that belong in the timeline. And no one knows why and no one will tell us. The bureau's

02:34:41.940 not going to tell us. We don't know that. That's a very good point. You're right when you think about

02:34:47.680 it. Like I have an 84 year old mom and she's mobile. She's limited in her mobility too. Though you

02:34:55.900 try to mess with her, you're going to get the cane right in between you. You know what? Don't mess

02:35:02.140 with my mom. But she would take a while. Definitely. She would take a while once we

02:35:08.280 got her to the house. And like you say, you don't just like open up the grass door, kick her out,

02:35:13.060 be like, bye mom. You know, when they're 84. You do. You make sure. Yeah. You get them in. You walk with

02:35:19.880 them. You get them into the house. You make sure they're okay. And then you leave and you close the

02:35:23.820 door. That's a good point that no one has really spoken to that. I have two other things I got to

02:35:30.300 get to, including this. The sheriff was asked about this reporter. There's a reporter named

02:35:40.100 Brianna Whitney. She works for Arizona family. We discussed it the other day and she came out with

02:35:44.860 this on Sunday as an exclusive. Again, she's, she's not some crazy reporter. She's done good reporting in

02:35:49.760 this case. Uh, and this is what she said inside. I think it's 55 B. Hi guys. We are now able to

02:35:56.040 independently confirm some new information in the Nancy Guthrie investigation. This is from an

02:36:00.800 inside source that is now reportable. I want to take you through the new information we've learned.

02:36:05.040 We can now report investigators now believe this was a burglary gone wrong. We've interviewed

02:36:10.820 multiple experts since this began, who also said based on the evidence, surveillance video,

02:36:15.200 and other aspects of this case that they also believed this was not an intended kidnap.

02:36:21.120 Okay. So none of us bought that when last we talked and, uh, the sheriff doesn't either. He was

02:36:28.140 asked about it here in SOT 55. And I talked to him about this reporting that has been out there,

02:36:33.400 not repeated by us, that this was a burglary gone wrong. The sheriff said it was not. Listen again to

02:36:41.560 the sheriff. You just said you, and your briefings, you believe it's a kidnapping. I believe it was a

02:36:46.980 kidnapping. Targeted kidnapping. Yes. I believe whoever did that knew what they were up to. So do

02:36:51.640 you believe who they were after? Okay. So he's gone a little further there. So he's debunking her

02:36:58.620 reporting saying, we do not believe that. Uh, they do not believe it was a burglary gone wrong,

02:37:03.880 that, that we do believe it was a quote targeted kidnapping. Uh, so that's a little bit more. I'm not

02:37:09.860 sure if he said targeted kidnapping before, meaning this was about the fact that it was Nancy Guthrie,

02:37:14.300 which is very interesting. So that's not a burglary gone wrong. It's either somebody who

02:37:19.300 didn't like Nancy or somebody who didn't possibly like Savannah, but somebody who went in there

02:37:24.300 looking to take this 84 year old woman because she was Nancy Guthrie, which is very interesting.

02:37:31.040 Is it not Maureen? It's very interesting, but I'm not going to, um, hold him to it because chances are

02:37:37.000 he's going to change his comment tomorrow. Yes. Fair enough. Fair enough. Let's not spend too much

02:37:42.880 time speculating about it. Right. Because who knows, but I like that wasn't an accident fits that

02:37:48.840 he, he said as much as he did. Well, wait, what am I saying? It might've been purposely, purposely done

02:37:55.440 on accident. Uh, and, and his use of the term kidnapping, the linguist to me, I think he may be

02:38:02.400 referring to abduction. There's, there's a difference. Kidnapping has different legal connotations

02:38:06.820 that is being done for profit or some other thing of value in that regard. So, uh, it, it was an

02:38:12.180 abduction. I would agree with it there, but let me go back to, uh, the, the burglary part. Uh, I worked

02:38:17.540 a lot of burglaries as a, uh, as, as a police officer and later in the FBI in New York, um, commercial

02:38:23.620 burglaries are at night, residential burglaries are during the day. Statistically, we're in the high 90

02:38:29.620 percentile of when they happen. Um, burglars don't want to confront people. They want to get there. A

02:38:35.840 lot of them are scaredy cats. I'll use a little kid term. If they see someone in the house, they

02:38:40.000 want to get out of there, especially if you have the mask on already. And, and most burglars don't

02:38:43.580 even have to wear a mask like that. If they think the house is unoccupied or whatever, which of course

02:38:47.940 maybe wasn't, you had a mask on, get the hell out, run. Um, the other thing I'd like to know about

02:38:52.420 the Tucson area, we were half seriously joking about this, Megan, what kind of a place is Tucson to live

02:38:58.880 now? These, all these, uh, randos outside with backpacks and throwing things around. What, I need

02:39:04.500 context. Are there other residential burglaries or even peeping Tom's reported within a 10 mile

02:39:11.260 radius, quite frankly, the whole city of Tucson, the whole metropolitan, metropolitan area.

02:39:15.520 Well, there's definitely a peeping Tom who's about 10 miles away, which we did cover.

02:39:18.960 Yeah. Uh, we've seen that, that person, but are there other burglaries? That's a specialized

02:39:23.320 nighttime burglaries in a residence. That's a whole special type of, you know, you hear about the cat

02:39:28.440 burglar. They, they kind of make them sexy in the movies and all, but you know, these are usually

02:39:32.600 just, just, just random, you know, half-ass criminals that do this stuff. I just can't imagine

02:39:37.640 this guy is all geared up for this in a house that is not overly ostentatious. If he did any research

02:39:43.480 at all, an 84 year old woman, she's not going to keep a lot of cash around necessarily. Uh, it just 0.87

02:39:50.900 wouldn't be worth the effort. The risk he is taking would not be worth the payoff for a burglary as far

02:39:57.000 as I'm concerned. This was an abduction plan. And you burgle, you burgle the house of burglary

02:40:02.820 has a specific meaning in the law too. It means like you've broken into a house and you intend

02:40:07.800 to rob it. It's different than a robbery. Um, but so burglary, you, you break in, you want to rob the

02:40:14.680 home of its goods. And all you take is the infirm 84 year old will like it's a fail. It doesn't work. 0.89

02:40:22.300 That's a real fail as a burglar. It doesn't scan. I mean, there are just too many contributing

02:40:26.780 factors. I mean, we looked at, uh, and we discussed obviously the weapon that he was wearing overtly,

02:40:31.900 the wrong semi-automatic in a revolver holster. Uh, I mean, that was used, uh, you know, incompetently,

02:40:38.780 but visibly and more often than not that is used to suppress any resistance by someone that you might be

02:40:45.520 looking to abduct rarely used in the capacity of a burglar, uh, who's anticipating coming into a

02:40:51.280 fight as Fitz says. So there was that also, I do not know of many cases where a home invasion or a

02:40:59.040 burglary has resulted in any victims being then removed from the property. You know, if someone is

02:41:06.840 injured or harmed, they're left in the property itself. And if they've gone to the trouble of wearing

02:41:12.700 gloves to try and conceal their identity and masks, then ultimately, unless it's, you know,

02:41:18.540 even if it was an assassination, the body is left there, but trying to leave as little evidence as

02:41:23.340 possible as to who was behind it, but for her to be removed, but there to be blood, obviously blood

02:41:29.080 scatters outside the front of the property. Um, it doesn't scan as a burglary whatsoever in my book.

02:41:35.100 It's an abduction. It's an abduction until a ransom is issued. And I think one of the biggest problems,

02:41:41.820 Megan, is that this case garnished so much publicity so quickly. I think these guys I've,

02:41:47.980 I've been, I've worked against, uh, Mickey Mouse kidnappers, amateur kidnappers in the past,

02:41:53.900 you know, they're scared people. They're not professionals. And that's why I'm not buying the

02:41:57.500 over the border into Mexico necessarily by a cartel or an organized crime group necessarily.

02:42:02.200 But these, these were amateurs who were looking maybe to make a buck. Um, this wasn't a particularly

02:42:07.940 affluent era. Uh, they were probably looking for a low yield express kidnap, but because it garnished 0.98

02:42:13.480 so much publicity, I think they've run scared. I wonder too, like we, we've talked about the family

02:42:22.060 two miles away from Nancy for all the obvious reasons. What other family is there? I'd love to

02:42:26.260 know more about the Guthrie family. Are there like extended family in the, in the area, you know,

02:42:31.680 even like long-term friends of the family who might've gotten a cockamamie idea about

02:42:36.880 that Savannah Guthrie's mom, you know, I bet she'd pay. Like it, it should go beyond family.

02:42:42.880 Like she grew up there. So there's going to be a lot of friends who've known the family for a long

02:42:47.440 time, you know, maybe not actual friends anymore who are looking at Nancy Guthrie and Savannah's bank

02:42:53.300 account as a solution to their problems. I'm sure law enforcement is looking at all of this.

02:42:58.300 Because there's no question she's going to have friends in the area who know that that's her mom

02:43:02.060 from, from having grown up there. Um, so like the, the quote family word should be extended out to

02:43:08.220 what cousins are there, what aunts and uncles are there, what third cousins are there, um, who may feel

02:43:14.240 less of a, an emotional affinity for the family and, but may be aware of the situation of, you know,

02:43:21.100 Savannah and her husband, he makes money too. He works for the NFL, by the way, the husband, this was so

02:43:28.140 wrong. TMZ, I don't know what you're doing in this case, but the husband, his name is Michael Feldman

02:43:33.940 was coming back to Tucson from having been, I think home with their kids. And, uh, TMZ got him at the

02:43:41.820 airport in this tape here and kept asking him the questions. It's just, it makes you feel so

02:43:46.960 uncomfortable. Here's the tape. It's at 69. Michael, how are you, sir? Michael, how's the

02:43:52.300 family holding up? Is there anything you can say? All right. Michael, is there anything you want to

02:44:00.100 say to the people who, who have done this? Michael, how's the family holding up? Anything you can say?

02:44:11.160 Thank you. Okay. So this was, I don't know if it was a TMZ reporter or if it was just a stringer,

02:44:17.500 but TMZ posted it. So clearly they bought the tape either way. And, um, I mean, you can't lose

02:44:23.920 your humanity in covering a case like this. You know, it's like that guy is absolutely suffering.

02:44:30.120 His wife is suffering. Their two children are suffering because it's their grandma. It's their

02:44:35.720 mother who's doing these tearful, you know, Maureen is just like, this is, this is what gives the

02:44:40.380 press a bad name among other things. It absolutely does. It's just, it's just terrible. Especially

02:44:45.120 I was thinking of the, of his kids and how he's trying to keep his, he probably loved his mother-in-law

02:44:50.620 by all accounts that, that, that guy that came to the door could have come to the door in the daytime

02:44:56.560 and she would have let him in and shown him where everything was just to get rid of him. She seems so

02:45:00.820 kind. And, and for, you know, for the little kids to have to suffer through this, this loss or this,

02:45:07.020 this freak show of what's happening with this case, you know, all their friends are asking

02:45:12.340 them at school, you know, their neighbors are always looking at them. It's, it's very, very,

02:45:17.100 it's pulling, it's really hurting those children. And so the father is hurt and he's trying to support

02:45:22.460 his wife and ban do his job. It's, it's just a lot. And it, it was just in very, very bad taste in my

02:45:28.620 opinion. Guys, listen to this. As we're discussing the possibility, the sheriff's statement of targeted

02:45:36.140 kidnapping and the possibility that somebody understanding, I mean, it could have just

02:45:41.060 been about Nancy Guthrie, but the odds are it has something to do with the rich daughter. I mean,

02:45:44.940 I think that's, that's probably the smarter bet. Um, Fox news reporting. This is the headline

02:45:52.020 internet user. They don't know who searched for Nancy Guthrie's address and daughter's salary

02:46:00.100 before today host mother vanished. This is literally breaking after the discussion we just

02:46:06.720 had. It's crazy. Um, I don't know how you can tell this. Fox news is citing Google trends.

02:46:14.200 An internet user appears to have searched for Nancy Guthrie's home address in the weeks prior to her

02:46:18.880 suspected abduction. Google trends shows, uh, last week, the FBI released a description of the

02:46:25.320 individual scene. They're talking about the guy five, nine, five, 10 with the Ozark trail hiker

02:46:29.460 backpack, other identifying items. Hold on. Read more. Um, Fox news digital has learned that

02:46:38.300 mysterious Google searches for Nancy's address and Savannah's salary occurred before her disappearance.

02:46:45.960 Google trends records show there was one search for Guthrie's address in the Catalina foothills

02:46:50.720 between June 21st and June 28th, 2025 by someone in Arizona. They can tell you exactly where the

02:46:57.200 search came from. The address was searched again once on January 11th, 2026. That's one of the dates

02:47:05.620 that the sheriff's office is asking people to check their ring cameras for. This is getting creepy.

02:47:13.280 The January 11th date also surfaced in a message on the ring camera app. He's now, now he's this,

02:47:18.980 this guy's in my head. Um, let's see, uh, a Pima County Sheriff's department captain replied to the

02:47:24.640 post asking users to look for the verified post. Okay. Man questioned. Hold on. Sorry. I'm reading

02:47:30.640 live. Where's the part about him searching. Free offense behavior. We talked about this week. Yep.

02:47:39.820 Yeah. Wait, standby. My, my crack producers texted it to me. They can read faster than I can. Um,

02:47:44.440 there were two separate, which one is it, Debbie? Is it the, which text do you have? Three from you

02:47:50.520 here. There were also two separate Google image searches for Nancy's address in Arizona. One

02:47:57.560 again, sometime between March 1st and 8th, 2025. Oh, Google image searches, guys. Google image

02:48:05.540 searches. In addition to like just typing in, in the Google search bar. Okay. Also two separate Google

02:48:10.960 image searches for Nancy's address in Arizona. One was sometime between March 1st and 8th,

02:48:15.620 2025. The other was between November 30th and December 1st, 2025, specifically looking for images

02:48:22.660 or a map of the home. In addition to the address in the days leading up to Nancy's disappearance,

02:48:29.760 in the days leading up to Nancy's disappearance, quote, Savannah Guthrie salary was searched 0.98

02:48:36.160 from Tucson sometime between December 13th and 20th. For comparison, CNN anchor Anderson Cooper,

02:48:45.220 who grew up in New York City, generated one search for Anderson Cooper salary in the New York City area

02:48:50.040 between March 29th and April 5th. Fox News' Sean Hannity also grew up in New York and Sean Hannity's

02:48:55.200 salary was searched once between May 3rd and 10th, 2025. Whoa. What do you make of this?

02:49:01.620 Yeah, we've been talking about this since the beginning. Victimology, about our victim,

02:49:08.120 all the family members, friends of family members, but then going to the offender himself.

02:49:12.900 What were they doing in the weeks, if not months beforehand? One of them is obsessive,

02:49:18.580 you know, internet interest and usage. And who's looking up the parties here involved in this

02:49:24.840 particular case? And of course, that includes starting to buy materials, backpacks, ropes, you know,

02:49:30.360 all these things, the Uncle Mike Holster, whatever's in there. But it's no surprise to me at all,

02:49:35.200 as we said earlier, and my partner and I are going to put out on our Cold Red podcast later today,

02:49:40.900 the full profile of this person. The pre-offense behavior includes this type of activity.

02:49:45.120 And if anyone knows the person, you know, and their computer has those images locked in there

02:49:49.660 somehow or a search history, that's a very, that's a person I want to talk to. And the tip line

02:49:55.160 should be called. Yes. What do you think, Will? Well, I think this is an absolute treasure trove.

02:50:01.640 I mean, as Fitz said, this is the advanced reconnaissance. This is the research that's

02:50:05.200 done in advance on a potential prospect. So I think there's going to be some reverse engineering

02:50:10.520 against the IP address, which Google, no doubt, will be able to attribute to those searches

02:50:14.620 to actually see any other history, any other IP associated data searches that have been undertaken

02:50:23.480 throughout this period from 2025, right up until obviously the date of the incident itself.

02:50:30.440 So yeah, this is a very useful, very useful bit of a lead that can be now hunted through.

02:50:37.300 And with Google's assistance, that they could be obviously warranted or subpoenaed to assist them

02:50:42.540 on this. And ultimately, this is the sort of thing that Google would love to no doubt to be able to

02:50:47.540 assist them with. I mean, so you've got, I'm just trying to go through the timeline here. So you've

02:50:52.680 got November 30, between they say, between November 30th and December 1st, someone searched for an image

02:51:00.440 of Nancy's home. On January 11th, someone searched for Nancy's address and had also searched on June 21st,

02:51:09.000 between the 21st and the 28th. So in the summer of 25, they searched for Nancy's address.

02:51:14.080 Then again, two weeks before the kidnapping. On March 1st and 8th, between March 1st and 8th,

02:51:23.440 they searched for images of Nancy's home. And then again, on November 30th and December 1st.

02:51:28.260 Again, now we're coming up to within two months of the kidnapping.

02:51:32.720 And then on December 13th, between December 13th and December 20th, somebody searched for Savannah's

02:51:40.780 salary. Now I will say this, as a news person, they often search for your salary.

02:51:49.600 Like I've seen that because there's all sorts of speculation online about what my salary is,

02:51:54.780 what all news person's salaries are. By the way, they're like incredibly off,

02:51:59.600 like so off every time. They never get it. There's a whole video on YouTube about

02:52:03.280 my lavish lifestyle. I'm like, oh, let's see. What do they have? Like literally nothing in there

02:52:08.000 is mine. Not the house, not the car, like nothing. I'm like, okay. It's all fake.

02:52:14.620 It's good they're getting them wrong. It's good they're getting it wrong.

02:52:17.380 Yes.

02:52:18.140 It's very good. Yeah. But it's so weird. Like things are made up. So, but I'm just saying

02:52:22.260 it, it may not be as exciting as we think that they search for Savannah's salary because they do

02:52:29.740 that when you're a public figure, but it's just a little, it's very eerie to see they searched for

02:52:35.160 that. And within two weeks of that, they were searching for images of Nancy's home. And within

02:52:42.040 three weeks of that, they were searching for Nancy's address. Now we don't know if it's the

02:52:45.860 same person.

02:52:46.280 Yeah. That's what I was going to ask you.

02:52:47.660 If these searches come back to the same person, Maureen.

02:52:50.600 Yeah. I think if they can actually join the dots together and if it can be attributed to

02:52:56.240 the same IP address for those searches, albeit in those different periods, that falls into

02:53:00.960 what we'd call a traditional planning cycle or attack planning cycle. So, you know, there

02:53:05.980 will be the selection of the potential prospect to kidnap if it was indeed a kidnap. They would

02:53:11.200 then revisit, they'd look at that site again, see if there was any changes, see if there

02:53:15.740 was any alterations. Certainly if there, but I wouldn't have discounted them, which is

02:53:20.220 why all these ring and nest cameras of neighbours is going to be so essential to see if there's

02:53:24.940 any repeated behaviour. I mean, in the small area that she lives in, you know, Nancy lives

02:53:29.460 in, you know, there will be a very easy pattern of the vehicles associated to the residents

02:53:37.660 in that area. Any other vehicles other than delivery vehicles, if they're privately owned,

02:53:43.340 will be very easy to identify whether they be, you know, vans, trucks, whatever it might

02:53:48.520 be.

02:53:49.880 Especially at one o'clock in the morning.

02:53:51.360 Maureen, why, why, yes. Why would they be, and I don't know, I, and what I just quickly

02:53:58.480 read, they didn't source this to law enforcement. So it's possible they say Fox News has learned.

02:54:04.420 Okay. So it is sourced to law enforcement because there's, there's nobody else who's calling Fox

02:54:08.900 to, to tell them that they, that they did this. They learned this.

02:54:11.780 It's probably part of that public private law enforcement. Why would law enforcement want

02:54:17.100 us to know this?

02:54:18.960 Well, first of all, it's a big lead. Secondly, they're not driving by this house in June and

02:54:25.160 on these other dates, well in advance of the, um, abduction with masks on or at nighttime. 0.77

02:54:33.020 So, I mean, I just think it would be fantastic if, uh, one of these clowns got a, um, uh, a ticket

02:54:40.460 on one of the, uh, speeding cameras is the speeding cameras don't record, but they do take your photo

02:54:46.680 when you're driving through and that light goes off. And boy, wouldn't that be a bonanza of a tip

02:54:52.780 or a Tesla, a Tesla camera or the neighbor? Maybe that's what they're doing with the neighbor's

02:54:58.400 ring cam. Maybe it's not even about getting, they already checked that one perhaps for the night

02:55:02.660 she disappeared. Maybe they're going back to see whether anybody did a drive by daylight on any of

02:55:08.100 these dates stuff, which they still should have done weeks ago, but that's okay.

02:55:15.140 But that, that's so eerie. You guys, that's, that, that is very eerie to me that like they've got

02:55:21.600 somebody searching. I mean, as I say, it's not unusual to search for a public figure's salary,

02:55:26.760 to search for the location of a public figure's mother's home, like to search for an image. Now,

02:55:32.780 maybe, maybe somebody is visiting her. I don't know. It's like, I, I, that's not how you figure

02:55:37.680 out where somebody lives though. Like if I'm going over, this happens all the time as a parent,

02:55:40.920 your kid's got a play date with a family you don't know. You, you text the other mom,

02:55:46.440 you know, you like who the hell enters like Google for like Joe Schmo's house that I've got to go to.

02:55:52.320 That's not, and then image search on top of it. Predators. It becomes unusual when a person is

02:55:58.620 kidnapped or abducted, whatever we're going to call it. Then you reverse engineer it. Then it

02:56:03.040 becomes something, uh, highly valuable, potentially highly valuable. You're right. Otherwise if no crime

02:56:08.380 ever happens, it's no big deal. But if something bad does happen, that's when, uh, in fact, it has to

02:56:13.620 take on importance and the investigators are in fact looking at that. And hopefully we just got

02:56:18.340 this information in the last, you know, half hour. I have, I assume people have been on this for days

02:56:22.800 now, if not even longer. That it is just eerie that, that new information is eerie. It's eerie,

02:56:31.180 but it excites, I would say Fitz and I are both, and I'm sure we'll, we're, this is exciting news for

02:56:37.100 us. Um, because way back then they weren't masking everything the way they would days before. So

02:56:43.540 this is a, this is brilliant. And there, there's going to be days in between. Very smart thing to

02:56:48.140 ask. Right, Maureen? Like what a smart lead for somebody to pursue? Like, let's see if somebody

02:56:56.920 searched these two things. That was a clever idea by some law enforcement officer. Well, it's, it's,

02:57:02.000 it's what you write in your subpoenas, any and all information related to this address and everything

02:57:06.780 like that. But it also takes the detective having a conversation with the analyst, unless the FBI

02:57:13.320 people are in there, which I believe that they are and say, Hey, what else can we check? Is there

02:57:18.020 anything else? Show me what else your systems can do. And you sit there and you go through it. And

02:57:23.320 then they're like, well, there's the thing that tells you how many people have looked at it or,

02:57:27.220 you know, so it's, it's these relationships that are built over years and these relationships that we

02:57:32.880 develop sometimes very quickly because of evolving situations that we're able to come up with this

02:57:39.180 stuff. So this is a, this is a proud moment. I'm very happy. I'm very happy for the team for this

02:57:44.420 because this is exciting stuff. Yes. I was just going to say where I was going to take us next was

02:57:51.460 we need a new lead because what the sheriff revealed and what's been revealed through just

02:57:58.760 reporting by various outlets is the gun search, you know, how they went to the gun stores and had

02:58:04.120 the 40 pictures and the 40 names that reportedly came up empty. Um, they did not get any hits off

02:58:11.400 of it. The DNA, as I said, for now has come up empty. Um, there was another thing they did that came

02:58:18.840 up empty and I'm trying to remember what it was. Megan, are you saying that the point is they were

02:58:23.180 running out of leads? Megan, are you saying that criminals don't buy their guns from gun stores

02:58:27.820 that they may get them on the street? As it turns out, they may not be doing it the way

02:58:34.720 the law abiding citizens do it. Shocking. Shocking. Yeah. A quick question I've got, Megan, is, um,

02:58:41.440 has there been any mention of Nancy's cell phone? Uh, did they retrieve it in the household or did it

02:58:48.040 vanish with her? And again, have they done any mapping against the cell phone? Because they should be

02:58:52.760 able to, if it was taken with her, they would certainly be able to see possibly some of her

02:58:56.840 locations. All I know is it's separated from the, it's separated from the pacemaker at 2.28 a.m.

02:59:02.660 Right? Like I was, we were told I, it could have been the watch, but I think it was the phone.

02:59:07.880 Then there's been some dispute about whether your watch can connect to your pacemaker. I've heard said

02:59:11.680 yes. I've heard said no. The sheriff has been kind of elusive about, and I'm sure this is an

02:59:16.680 intentional, like you got to give him that. Um, he can't give us everything. Like he, they do have to

02:59:20.900 keep some details private. So when they catch this perp, you know, they can, they can manipulate him

02:59:26.540 into confessing and sort of dangle things in front of him. However you guys do it. But my point is

02:59:31.040 simply, um, I still, to this day, remain unclear on whether it was the pacemaker disconnected from

02:59:35.860 the phone or the Apple watch. And I'm also unclear on whether, cause when she first went missing and

02:59:42.580 they were trying to say like, Savannah's mom is missing. And it was like, ah, she probably wandered off,

02:59:46.900 you know, and they were like, no, no, no, no. Her keys are back here. Her purse is back here.

02:59:50.040 Her phone is back here. And, and they did say phone at some point, but I'm not sure. I'm just

02:59:57.340 not sure. He has not given us some big specific phone mapping piece of detail. I imagine if, if Nancy

03:00:04.120 Guthrie had her phone with her, we'd know by now they'd probably have her by now. Right. It's like

03:00:09.360 it have her. Exactly. So I got to guess she had neither her phone nor her watch.

03:00:13.100 Because even when it's turned off, yeah. I mean, one of, one of the things I would

03:00:17.180 certainly want to look at is, um, as her call records as well. Uh, and because that could be 0.97

03:00:22.980 quite indicative or certainly illustrate any kind of pattern of behavior in terms of any calls that

03:00:28.040 have been received, any calls that she may have returned that, uh, whether there were dropped calls,

03:00:32.860 because even if you have a caller, no ID, a call come into your cell phone, the network will still

03:00:38.260 know what numbers are there. Can I ask Fitz a quick question? Yeah. Fitz, what do you, what,

03:00:45.660 what are your thoughts on, um, one of Harry Levin's many letters? He's, he can publish a book when this

03:00:51.560 is done, but, um, what, what, what are your thoughts on that last letter that said that she was seen in

03:00:58.860 Mexico with people or whatever? Do you think that could have just been, uh, a redirection, like to try

03:01:04.980 to pull the attention away from Tucson and put it, you know, well into Mexico? Just to remind the

03:01:11.760 audience, this is not, this is from the person claiming he knows who the kidnappers are, that he's

03:01:17.700 not the kidnapper, but he knows who they are. He saw them and that they've got her south of the border.

03:01:23.400 And by the way, there's now an update. There's another note, which I'm going to get to after Fitz

03:01:28.000 answers that question, Maureen. Yeah. Uh, it sounds to me as it's a term that I applied for the first time

03:01:33.460 in the Unabomb case, uh, uh, the term is contraindicator. It's against indications.

03:01:38.800 Whoever put that out there, the reason is obvious to, to misdirect the investigation,

03:01:44.260 go against the factors that are actually true. So again, it's something that the investigators

03:01:49.220 will have to look at, but you don't spend a whole lot of time. If it's that obvious that she was seen

03:01:54.100 in Mexico like that without other substantive information, I would call that a contraindicator,

03:01:59.780 misinformation, uh, designed to throw off the investigation, whether the person doing this

03:02:04.560 is the one who actually committed the crime or just playing some kind of a very sick game.

03:02:10.900 That's what Jonathan Gillum was saying yesterday that he, we were kind of scoffing at the, okay,

03:02:15.840 yet another note from somebody who desperately wants our attention. I know who the kidnapper is. And for

03:02:19.860 the low, low price of a Bitcoin and a half, I'll tell you. And he was saying, don't dismiss it too

03:02:24.780 quickly because it could be the kidnapper, the actual kidnapper looking to inject himself into

03:02:31.400 the case in another way. And he said some 20% of perpetrators will do that. Like they,

03:02:37.020 they want attention or they want, they want to inject themselves, or maybe they want to

03:02:41.940 throw the, throw the bone in a different direction fits to get people running down to Mexico when that's

03:02:48.900 the last place they should go to look for her. So for that reason, we should look at the Harvey notes

03:02:54.040 at least with one eye. We don't have to be like excited about them, but we should be looking at

03:02:58.540 them. And that brings me to the news that, uh, is just coming in. So let me just start with this.

03:03:04.860 Okay. This was literally last night, Harvey Levin on Sean Hannity promising the following SOT 68.

03:03:11.840 We decided that we're not going to say if he sent us any more letters, because if we say we got a letter

03:03:19.580 today and tomorrow, you ask me and I say, we got a letter tomorrow. And then the next day we say,

03:03:24.080 we're not going to talk about it. It tips off the kidnapper. We're essentially saying, well,

03:03:28.560 that's the day he gave us the information. We're just not going to say anything. He can,

03:03:32.680 if he wishes, give us the information. And as we promised, we will pass it on to the FBI. Then

03:03:38.080 there's a record, uh, that he supplied that information. Okay. And now today SOT 68 C within

03:03:46.340 like 15 hours of that watch TMZ obtained another ransom note today. Um, this is a highly sophisticated

03:03:56.280 demand involving a form of crypto, not Bitcoin. Um, now it is demanding roughly the same amount

03:04:06.980 as the demand letter we received, you know, shortly after the kidnapping, the $6 million demand.

03:04:13.780 It's not exactly that, but it's close to that. Um, the demand graphically describes the consequences

03:04:23.240 if the demand is not met. Um, it also involves the media, um, saying that the media essentially

03:04:32.300 becomes a go between a trigger, if you will, for getting this ransom money. Uh, we have been asked

03:04:39.500 not to be specific about any of that beyond what we've just said. We have forwarded this on to the

03:04:45.700 FBI and they are looking into it. But you can definitely listen for more on CNN and Fox when

03:04:52.840 Harvey makes his daily appearances later tonight, where he will be repeating all of the details.

03:04:57.500 Um, okay. Let's put to the side, the absurdity of we're not doing it ever again. Cause it's,

03:05:02.780 it's, but here I am again. Oh, something exciting. We can look back to me. Um, should we discuss the

03:05:08.860 substance of this ransom note, which does sound somewhat different from Mr. Give me a Bitcoin and

03:05:17.120 a half. In other words, it's, it's different in that it's pretending I think to be from the actual

03:05:26.280 kidnapper or, or it is potentially from the actual kidnapper. I have a write-up of what he said.

03:05:32.240 Another ransom note, highly sophisticated demand. I don't think we'd describe the other,

03:05:37.580 the middle guy. You know, he got the first, the first demands from the person who wanted

03:05:41.100 4 million and then 6 million. And that person sent two. And those both went to the same Bitcoin

03:05:45.280 account and neither was paid as far as we know. Then he got four more, I think four, three or four,

03:05:50.540 three, whatever, from the middle guy who said, I know who the kidnapper is. They have herself at the

03:05:55.240 border. Give me a Bitcoin and a half. And was pissed off that the FBI raised the reward from 50

03:06:00.040 to a hundred in the middle of his demands for crypto saying, I don't appreciate that. Whatever.

03:06:05.140 There's that guy. And now here's, here seems to be a third offeror who to me sounds like he's

03:06:12.300 pretending to be, or is the kidnapper. Uh, another ransom note, highly sophisticated demand involving

03:06:17.500 a crypto other than Bitcoin. Cause you know, there's like Dogecoin. There's other, it's not just

03:06:21.440 Bitcoin. If you're in the crypto market, the email demands a dollar amount similar to the $6 million

03:06:25.900 ransom demand in that earlier email we received days after the kidnapping. It graphically, you heard

03:06:31.500 him say, describes the consequences if the ransom isn't paid. I'm sure it's like, or she gets it.

03:06:35.860 The new ransom demand email includes a crypto number different from the Bitcoin one that he got

03:06:41.780 first round. We've forwarded to the FBI, um, pointing out that anybody who tries to scam the

03:06:47.740 Guthrie family is going to get it. They're playing with fire. The FBI is going to get you

03:06:50.760 and you're going to go to prison for a long time. Then says law enforcement sources

03:06:54.660 involved in the investigation, tell TMZ the FBI has contacted Mexican federal law enforcement to

03:07:01.580 spread the word to various police agencies. We told you, okay, so now he's moving on to the other

03:07:04.820 news. Actually, this was the, the discouraging stuff I wanted to mention. Um, they did not, they,

03:07:10.880 TMZ is reporting law enforcement sources say they did not get any leads from the gun stores

03:07:14.620 and also reporting that an FBI team working with Walmart and other retailers to find who may have

03:07:20.000 purchased some of the items the kidnapper was wearing. No breakthroughs so far quote. We are

03:07:25.700 shaking the trees says one law enforcement source to crack the case, but that's discouraging that no

03:07:31.520 luck at Walmart, no luck at the gun stores. Again, I want to know why they're sharing. Why is the FBI

03:07:37.520 sharing that guys? What, why are they telling that to TMZ? And also what do we make of this new

03:07:45.060 quote ransom demand? I got Jim shaking his head. He's got it. Three words, three words, proof of life.

03:07:53.800 Everything else is superfluous. Of course, they're going to do the worst things than Mrs. Guthrie. 1.00

03:07:57.320 Maureen and Will are shaking their heads. Yeah. Show us proof of life. We'll take you serious

03:08:00.760 and you better show it that she's still alive. And that's the only way you're going to get it.

03:08:04.440 Uh, and I'm, I'm, I like mincing words with people or at least assessing when they do it,

03:08:09.620 uh, shaking, you know, whatever the terminology is, Walmart, uh, you know, no lead so far or no

03:08:16.200 promising lead so far. It doesn't mean they aren't focused on, you know, a certain, uh, you know,

03:08:21.980 delivery that came in and certain backpacks that went out at certain times. And, uh, and same with

03:08:27.620 the gun shops. They're not going to put anything out there. If the FBI just says negative, I'm okay with

03:08:32.680 that. All it means is they don't, they don't have enough ready to put cuffs on a guy. And I've been

03:08:36.480 in, you know, task forces and putting, you know, PR, uh, you know, statements together for the media

03:08:41.380 and you, you don't want to lie, but you don't want to let, but don't forget the offender is

03:08:45.520 listening to this stuff too. I'm still not unconvinced that he doesn't listen to, to your

03:08:50.640 show, Megan, you have some good people on and you, you really hosted well. So he may be listening to

03:08:55.160 this and we're telling him, you know, what may be happening next, but we're also saying,

03:08:59.100 don't get too comfortable because the FBI doesn't necessarily, because they're saying something in

03:09:03.860 the negative doesn't mean something else has happened. So, uh, but show me proof of life for

03:09:08.380 these letters that coming into Harvey and, uh, and, and his, his other imaginary friends, and we'll see

03:09:13.640 what happens from there. And there's a reason they want, Jim, I know you got to run. Thank you for

03:09:18.620 being here to be continued tomorrow. Maureen and Will, let's keep going. Go ahead, Maureen.

03:09:22.200 And there's a reason they want the media to be the intermediary because they won't have law

03:09:27.460 enforcement scrutiny. I mean, if you're sending this, if you're sending this to, uh, the family

03:09:32.500 and law enforcement right away, or you want to, um, interact with a law enforcement agency,

03:09:37.860 you're going to have to suffer some, um, scrutiny. And the number one thing is exactly what, uh,

03:09:43.260 Fitz just said, which is proof of life. We haven't had any proof of life. We're all trying to be

03:09:50.560 optimistic, but it's getting more and more difficult. Show us something.

03:09:57.920 Yeah. And the, the, the family begged for that. Well, on the first go round when we had those

03:10:03.000 first two letters. I mean, I've seen my fair share of ransom demands. Um, and it's generally

03:10:09.560 going to be a family member who will be contacted in a kidnapping if it is indeed a kidnapping. And,

03:10:15.900 uh, the first thing is, I mean, Harvey's claim of this newest demand, other than obviously it being

03:10:21.800 for an inordinate amount of money, uh, is that it's sophisticated. Nothing in what he shared with us,

03:10:27.340 uh, would give me any indication of it being sophisticated whatsoever. Uh, very, a good

03:10:32.060 sophisticated approach will be to utilize a means of presenting obviously sufficient evidence.

03:10:38.120 And it is that proof of life as, uh, Maureen and Fitz both said, uh, with that ransom demand,

03:10:44.280 because then that isolates you amongst all the other claimants out there who are trying to

03:10:50.040 chance their arm to say, we're the people you need to listen to. We're the people you need to take

03:10:54.440 seriously. And this is our demand. And, and from that point forward, the whole thing, the email

03:11:00.920 address, the redirect doesn't go into TMZ. It goes directly to, uh, someone within the negotiation team,

03:11:08.120 whoever it might be. I'm sure within the bureau or in the private sector would be someone within

03:11:12.520 my team or me myself. And then we continue that communication and then we manage it from that

03:11:18.440 point forward. But until that proof of life comes in, none of these demands are worth a jot.

03:11:25.560 So the, the fact that Harvey says they graphically describe the consequences if demands are not met

03:11:32.760 suggests that they're threatening to hurt her, but he doesn't say a word about

03:11:39.880 proving that they have her. Yeah.

03:11:42.840 So do you think, what do you think the FBI will is telling the Guthrie's right now about this?

03:11:48.280 Well, Maureen's probably better place than me to, to speak on the, the FBI's actions,

03:11:52.840 but from a standard negotiation team, uh, they wouldn't be sharing necessarily any more information

03:11:58.760 than we've had this demand. And this is our assessment of it. Um, in terms of any graphic description

03:12:05.400 of what they're going to do to Nancy or to the hostage, um, that's irrelevant. It doesn't mean

03:12:10.760 anything. It's, it's intended to put fear into, uh, whoever they're appealing to, to settle the

03:12:17.080 ransom. So, um, it doesn't have any credibility whatsoever, unless it came with that proof of

03:12:22.600 life. And it really is those keys really words. What do you think about that Maureen? Because after

03:12:28.360 the first demand that went to Harvey, that said 4 million by Thursday, 6 million, if you wait until

03:12:34.200 Monday, um, the family did come out three times, you know, they, they issued three video statements.

03:12:41.560 We watched them, the three of them, then Cameron by himself, then, then the three of them again.

03:12:46.840 And then even, I can't remember whether it's the Savannah solo video. I think it came out after,

03:12:50.880 but in any event, they put out multiple videos after it, trying to get proof of life,

03:12:55.520 you know, trying to get, like they said, we need to know that you have her. Clearly they didn't get

03:13:00.320 it and they didn't pay those demands and the deadlines came and went. And so do you think if

03:13:06.000 you're a law enforcement, if you're FBI right now advising the Guthrie's, do you say it looks like

03:13:11.040 somebody new? It's a different kind of crypto. It's a different account. You might consider doing

03:13:17.040 one of the videos. I would say, I mean, these predators have seen the, the, just the breaking of

03:13:24.880 Savannah Guthrie online and her siblings, but particularly her, especially that last video.

03:13:30.560 And so they're taking advantage of that, but without proof of life, this is, it's just a bunch

03:13:36.000 of puddles on the street. You, the only thing that's going to raise this above that and make 0.71

03:13:42.320 it worth mentioning is the proof of life. I could sit here and talk to you about the consequences of,

03:13:48.560 of, of someone finding the perpetrator in this week. We're going to do all these horrible things to

03:13:54.160 him, whatever. That means nothing to anybody, you know, they have to come up with proof of life

03:14:02.080 and they're not able to do that. And we're in the third.

03:14:05.040 But would you tell the, would you tell them to come out and demand it now? I mean, like,

03:14:08.560 because my thinking is this, if you, if you, if you took the first note seriously enough to put the

03:14:14.000 family in front of a camera and make them do what they did. I realized that one didn't pan out,

03:14:19.200 but like, if I'm thinking if you're FBI, you kind of have to take each one of these somewhat

03:14:24.560 seriously. And so wouldn't they just start the same playbook again saying, do you, do you want to do

03:14:32.400 it again? I don't think it's a great idea to put the family through this. I certainly wouldn't read

03:14:36.820 all the graphic details to the family, especially if it's from someone that isn't offering anything other

03:14:42.260 than a word, but you know, words. I, I just, I just won't. I mean, there's two, the stakes are too

03:14:49.700 high. There's too much money involved. There's too many people involved. So many of these things don't,

03:14:55.300 don't go together. It's like a bunch of people trying to cram square pegs into a round hole. It,

03:15:02.260 you know, it's, it's just a game of, of cruelty and rope a dope for this family. And, and no,

03:15:10.420 I wouldn't do it. I wish Harvey Levin would just stop platforming these people. Just give it to the

03:15:16.120 FBI and forget about it because half, half of what they're doing. Interesting. Yeah. Stop,

03:15:22.500 you know, just, you're saying the Harvey, Harvey should give whatever he gets to the FBI and stop

03:15:30.360 making a public spectacle of it because that's exactly what these attention seekers want. 0.67

03:15:35.640 Yes. Let the professionals handle this.

03:15:40.880 I agree.

03:15:41.500 Yeah, totally. I mean, he's, he's injecting himself unnecessarily into this whole situation.

03:15:47.580 He, he should be demonstrating some politesse and some discretion and sensitivity to the family,

03:15:54.260 supporting and managing a family during an extortion attempt or a kidnapping, or even a missing

03:16:00.240 person or a reduction is absolutely critical. You've got to keep them as balanced as possible

03:16:06.480 because they're on a very, very thin line emotionally in trying to manage it because it's something

03:16:11.280 entirely alien to them. So when you have a character from TMZ that is broadcasting regularly saying,

03:16:20.480 oh, we're very important. We've received this amazing sort of a Branson demand, which,

03:16:25.300 you know, Maureen and I and anybody in our world knows has zero substance until it's supported by a

03:16:31.040 proof of life. And the first thing is, is that there are certain things in that negotiation process,

03:16:36.280 Megan, that you don't necessarily want the family to need to know. You don't lie to them.

03:16:41.540 And lying is the worst thing and the last thing you should ever do. But it's so important that you

03:16:47.220 withhold certain information, which is unnecessary for them to know. So it could be the graphic content of

03:16:53.420 the repercussions or, or what could possibly happen, you know, and we try and keep that as quiet as

03:16:58.880 possible. But the key thing is to be as brutally hard and with the kidnappers as well. And to say,

03:17:06.920 oh, the potential kidnappers and say, if you have her, we don't have any communication with you.

03:17:13.220 We are going to discount you unless you can provide us with proof of life. And unless you provide that

03:17:17.540 proof of life, you are just white noise. And what difference does the highly

03:17:22.980 sophisticated make? What difference does that make? Are you trying to say that unsophisticated

03:17:27.860 people don't cause great harm to others? Everyone's capable of it. Not everyone, but a lot of different

03:17:33.840 people. Right. And I don't even know if that makes it more or less likely it's the actual kidnappers,

03:17:40.120 because I'm not sure we think that guy in the front porch was highly sophisticated.

03:17:43.360 No. But that's an interesting, see, I mean, I will say this, Harvey's not exactly injecting

03:17:49.380 himself. Whoever's sending him the notes is injecting him into it. But I also think to me,

03:17:55.220 he's been milking it, which brings a distaste. Yeah. Like I actually, I wouldn't be as hard on him

03:18:01.940 as if, if he came up and said, this has happened, let me report to you what it is. And now I'm moving

03:18:07.360 on. I don't know, as a media person, you, you know, we're news people. And so like, that's our first

03:18:12.980 order of business is to report the news. It would be very hard to just not tell anybody you had this.

03:18:19.860 I understand the position he's in there. I think it's like then seeing him do the press tour after

03:18:25.800 each one of these, where he's being too cute by half. Like it said this, but I'm not going to go

03:18:30.560 further than that. And I'm going to lift the dress up a little, but not all the way. And then let me

03:18:34.400 titillate over on CNN and I want to do it on Fox and I'm going to go back on TMZ and do it. And,

03:18:39.000 and then you just wind up feeling like this is a guy in the midst of a PR campaign and TMZ has had

03:18:44.760 a rough little go of it because they were caught laughing when Charlie Kirk was assassinated.

03:18:49.880 You could hear the laughter and people got very angry with them to the point where they did a

03:18:56.060 follow-up report saying that they weren't laughing about Charlie's murder. It was a car chase or

03:19:01.540 something that they were watching that led to the cries you heard in the newsroom. And many people

03:19:08.060 questioned that because they think TMZ leans left. Harvey was just on camera arguing bitterly

03:19:15.380 with Mark Garagos about whether Don Lemon should have been charged. Harvey was very much on Don Lemon's

03:19:22.100 side. And so to me, it's no accident. Like he keeps going on Fox. Like here I am. I'm the savior.

03:19:28.360 I've got, it's like, he's rebuilding. He hopes, I think with a right-leaning audience.

03:19:34.340 So it just, it has a distasteful feel to it. And I have nothing against Harvey whatsoever. I just,

03:19:39.440 it's too much. Like he's, you should not look like you are like wanting to make it about you

03:19:45.540 more than you have to while the family is suffering. That's my own.

03:19:50.720 It's salacious. It's salacious. But Megan, I wanted to pick up on something a little earlier

03:19:55.620 you mentioned, which was about the level of professionalism by the individuals at the door.

03:20:01.320 Now it's not uncommon if there were, if there is a, if it is indeed a kidnapping and let's

03:20:08.040 disassociate from all the nonsense letters that Harvey's been receiving, but let's take it in

03:20:12.700 isolation. If Nancy was kidnapped, it's not unusual. And I've dealt with these groups before where you'll

03:20:19.960 have a low level sort of more basic criminals that will affect the actual snatch or who will do the

03:20:26.580 abduction. And they do it on behalf of whoever is going to be then coordinating the ransom demands and

03:20:32.900 the exchange, obviously later down the line. So although they were pretty, you know, slipshod,

03:20:39.500 uh, the guy at the front door with the gun hanging outside of waistband, um, that doesn't mean that

03:20:44.820 they weren't necessarily there on behalf of someone else. I agree. I know. And like, as much as we say

03:20:52.040 he didn't look sophisticated, cause he didn't to me, he got her. He's gotten away with it for

03:20:57.580 two and a half weeks now, notwithstanding the report that there are 400 law enforcement officers on this.

03:21:04.180 According to TMZ, the leads at Walmart are dead for now. The leads of the gun stores,

03:21:09.500 I've gone nowhere so far. No DNA has been left behind. That's been useful in any way. No

03:21:15.940 fingerprints, no nothing. I mean, right now it looks like Nancy Guthrie has disappeared without

03:21:21.800 a trace, Maureen. It does. But I'm, you know, this, this new IP thing that came out with the

03:21:26.860 person looking at her address and everything, that's going to be a new, um, a whole new line

03:21:31.300 of inquiry in a totally different area. If that IP address is in fact in a different region,

03:21:35.980 then the, the Walmart, um, um, lead may, or the Walmart inquiry may blow up again. Meaning

03:21:43.240 whoever ordered the stuff came from this other area, as opposed to right where she is. They're

03:21:49.800 looking for a number of things and they have, they obviously have all the, um, supply chain

03:21:55.040 information on those backpacks, where they went and to whom they're trying to couple it up. They're,

03:22:00.180 they're merging and purging their searches with all the information, all the items they think may have

03:22:05.680 been purchased by Walmart and then narrowing it down as necessary and seeing if, if anyone ordered

03:22:11.300 three or four things at different times. And so it's a lot of that, even though, even though it's

03:22:17.660 hasn't come up, it hasn't been fruitful yet. I think now that there's a new location involved,

03:22:22.880 hopefully with that new IP address, um, that could come back to life and help. I hope.

03:22:29.580 And, and that the, I'm just looking back at the report. Yeah. It says Google trends shows there

03:22:37.580 was one search for Guthrie's address between June 21st and June 28th by someone in Arizona. So they

03:22:45.360 have, they, they already have either the general address of the person or probably you guys tell me

03:22:54.220 by the time they're releasing this to us, they, they probably know exactly who searched for it.

03:22:59.620 Do they know what would, what would you think? Yes, I do. I think they would absolutely know that.

03:23:03.840 Yeah. And hopefully when you look at something like that, like what's the location, the next step is

03:23:09.080 going to be what phones are tied to that location. Let's geofence it for, you know, the past three

03:23:13.780 weeks or four weeks, or let's, let's also do a geofence on that particular day and see who was in that

03:23:20.240 house, what phones were in that house. And let's start looking for those phones around

03:23:24.180 January 11th, anywhere in that area around that circle K or any place around there. And because

03:23:29.520 they may turn them off or they may render their phones, um, unable to ping for in different ways

03:23:35.920 when they get close to the house, but they probably didn't do it. People can't live with

03:23:40.600 their phones more than two miles, you know, they, they turn them back on. I mean, the, the,

03:23:46.080 the accuracy and, you know, Maureen's absolutely right in terms of the geofence, the accuracy

03:23:50.580 will be very much based on the cell site positions. And if there are sufficient cell

03:23:56.120 site positions around there and cell sites, then they can get the accuracy really down to about

03:24:02.940 sort of five, 10 feet, which is sufficient to be able to determine how many phones were in

03:24:07.440 proximity, obviously to Nancy and her cell phone. Um, but yeah, the biggest challenge, uh, will be,

03:24:14.240 and I think, I hope it leads to something that the IP addresses for those various different searches

03:24:19.180 for the images, uh, for the address itself, they all match up. That's, that's going to be key.

03:24:24.980 Well, I'm relieved to hear it doesn't end with, you know, if the person had used a VPN,

03:24:29.320 for example, it could be like coming from Brazil. You know, I mean, it sounds like, uh, possibly if,

03:24:35.260 if it's like from Arizona, possibly the person did not mask themselves at all when they did the

03:24:39.080 search. Um, well, um, well, God, I was just going to ask you something important. Oh, oh, I know.

03:24:44.760 So will it must be said, this is good news for Tomas and the other family members, because they

03:24:55.980 would certainly not need to go searching for Nancy Guthrie's address and would have a ballpark idea

03:25:02.000 of Savannah's salary too. Like the family would not need to search where Nancy lived. This,

03:25:07.300 this is support if it's related and it, you know, we don't know for sure, but if it's related,

03:25:12.020 this is support for the, you know, Savannah stalker or Nancy stalker, Nancy disgruntled employee.

03:25:20.280 I don't know an employee. Again, if there's an answer, a landscaper or whomever, they would know

03:25:24.740 where Nancy lives. So, but if this thing is related, this is support for, I guess the most likely

03:25:29.760 Lane is the stalker of Savannah Lane. Yeah, one would, will hope. I mean, for their sake. Um,

03:25:37.020 however, that is, unless they're collaborative to it, if there are actors working on behalf of

03:25:42.300 Tomas or the family or someone else, uh, that is close to Nancy, then they may very well have

03:25:47.640 double checked that information may have done their own searches. I would doubt unlike a professional

03:25:52.800 outfit that they would have run sort of clean, what we call clean protocols. So like Maureen was saying

03:25:58.260 about going into the location with their own cell phones, you know, people don't want to be parted

03:26:04.000 from their cell phones. More is absolutely right on that. Um, but a, a professional outfit wouldn't

03:26:09.480 go anywhere with any ID on them, anything that could identify them, their cell phone technology wise,

03:26:14.760 you know, even on the vehicle, any GPS that might be there again, removed. But, um, yes,

03:26:20.700 one would hope it's not connected to the family, but I don't think we, unlike the sheriff,

03:26:23.980 my jury's still out. Mine too. Yeah. Yeah. Mine too. Well, my mind is open. My mind is open to

03:26:31.620 whatever they come up with. Yeah. Me too. I mean, the one thing I'm convinced of, and it sounds like

03:26:38.240 the sheriff is, is with me there. And I think you guys agree is there's no way they accidentally

03:26:42.680 stumbled upon Nancy Guthrie, Savannah's mom. That didn't happen. I agree with him targeted, 0.77

03:26:48.200 either targeted because they wanted to get rid of her or targeted because they wanted to steal her 0.61

03:26:52.520 and hijack the family for a bunch of millions, but she was chosen for a reason, either a sick and 0.73

03:27:00.920 tired family member or somebody who wanted to inherit or somebody who wanted to extort millions of

03:27:08.000 dollars out of the Guthrie's. So, um, I feel like the circle's getting smaller. It's getting a little

03:27:13.980 smaller by the second, again, undermining burglary. So that reporter really seems to have gotten it

03:27:19.400 wrong, at least so it seems today. All right. That's all we're going to do today. That was a

03:27:23.020 lot. Every day we get together, it seems like something happens and the investigation takes

03:27:26.720 another turn. Thank you for helping us navigate it. You too. We appreciate it. Well, Maureen,

03:27:31.500 see tomorrow. I'm sure. Thank you. Okay. And thanks to all of you. Here we are four hours later,

03:27:36.740 um, two hours. Did we do a show on, on Epstein? I think we did. Uh, I vaguely recall it. It happened

03:27:42.240 many hours ago. Um, we're going to go have some lunch. It's almost dinnertime now. And, uh, thank you so

03:27:47.320 much to all of you for listening and making the show possible. I'm so grateful to all of you. I

03:27:51.840 love getting your notes, uh, and your theories of the case. You can keep them coming. Uh, email me

03:27:56.960 Megan at megankelly.com. And you can also make comments on our social media. I do go and read

03:28:02.780 them. And I, I love hearing from you guys. I love hearing your thoughts on the whole case. You've been

03:28:07.940 very smart and very helpful as always. Lots of love. We'll talk tomorrow.

03:28:12.320 Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - February 18, 2026

What the Epstein Files REVEAL About Blackmail and Connections, and Nancy Guthrie Latest, with Jashinsky, Grim, Shellenberger, and More ｜ Ep. 1255

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