The Megyn Kelly Show - Young People Turning From Faith, the New Religion of ＂Woke,＂ and an Easter Message, with Bishop Robert Barron ｜ Ep. 753

00:00:00.480 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:12.360 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:15.860 On this Good Friday, we are bringing you a special show with Bishop Robert Barron.

00:00:21.620 He is one of the most followed Catholics in the world on social media

00:00:26.460 and has been named one of the Church's Best Messengers.

00:00:31.540 We'll dive into why, and we'll dive into what's happening in our culture from a historical perspective,

00:00:38.660 all sorts of things to get to, including actor Shia LaBeouf's recent confirmation with the bishop into the Catholic faith.

00:00:49.500 Bishop Barron, welcome to the show.

00:00:51.380 Thanks for having me on.

00:00:52.580 Oh, it's wonderful to have you.

00:00:53.700 And this is airing on Good Friday as we go into Easter weekend.

00:01:00.200 And, you know, just let's kick it off with what you think Catholics and Christians should be thinking about on a day like this.

00:01:07.420 They should be thinking about their own sin.

00:01:11.060 I mean, so in a way, what we see in the cross of Jesus is our sin.

00:01:14.620 So the author of life came and we killed him.

00:01:17.440 That's a basic biblical message. 0.99

00:01:19.920 God sent his only son, God's own self in human form, and our reaction was to kill him. 0.73

00:01:26.760 And that means there's something really off with us.

00:01:30.540 The cross of Jesus is a judgment on the world.

00:01:33.560 So whenever we're tempted to say, you know, everything's fine, I'm okay, you're okay, don't worry about it,

00:01:37.960 we hold up the cross of Jesus to say, no, all is not well with us.

00:01:44.100 They killed him 2,000 years ago, and if we're honest, if he came back now, we do the same thing.

00:01:49.940 And so it's a reminder of our sin, but at the same time, a reminder that God was willing to go all the way to the bottom of our dysfunction to find us.

00:02:01.640 So on the cross, we also have God identifying himself with the fallen human race.

00:02:09.100 So it's both those truths, that we're sinners, but that we are saved by a sheer grace.

00:02:15.900 Both of those truths, I think, have to be in play as we look at Good Friday.

00:02:19.520 Oh, Bishop, I have a feeling that you were sent here for me for this interview.

00:02:29.620 Maybe I'll help some of my audience, and maybe I'll help myself, because I have to tell you something.

00:02:36.640 I am a sinner, and I am having a bit of a crisis of faith these days.

00:02:42.500 I'm a Catholic, a lifelong Catholic, and I've been going through something, and I really wrestled with whether I would raise it with you in this interview,

00:02:50.760 because this is about Good Friday and Easter, but I've been thinking about what you just said,

00:02:56.140 about what Good Friday means and being a sinner and where that takes me.

00:03:01.700 And I just want to outline it for you as follows.

00:03:04.640 Maybe you can give me some guidance.

00:03:07.300 I have been going through the process of getting an annulment of my first marriage.

00:03:11.820 I've been married to Doug now for, I don't know, 16 years.

00:03:15.680 We just celebrated our wedding anniversary.

00:03:17.460 But I never annulled my first marriage to my first husband, with whom I am still very friendly.

00:03:23.160 He's a great guy.

00:03:24.020 Just didn't work out.

00:03:25.520 And he and I agreed.

00:03:27.300 He's Catholic, too, that we would try to get an annulment, and he would marry.

00:03:32.540 You know, I would get married to Doug in a church, and you know how that works.

00:03:35.560 I'm not technically allowed to receive absolution and confession until I do this.

00:03:41.600 And so on and so forth.

00:03:42.820 Well, I've been doing it, and I'm going through the process, and my priest is helping me.

00:03:48.300 And I have to tell you, instead of renewing my faith or leading me on a journey where I would feel closer to God

00:03:54.160 and embrace things like Good Friday and Lent and Easter, it's been driving me in a different direction.

00:04:00.780 I didn't even observe Lent this year.

00:04:04.140 I did not go to church on Ash Wednesday.

00:04:06.240 I'm feeling kind of emotional just talking about it.

00:04:10.140 And it's been like the in-your-face interjection of man in between your relationship with God that is getting to me.

00:04:22.400 You know, as I fill out these forms—it's not my priest.

00:04:24.860 I want to make that clear.

00:04:25.640 I really care about my priest, and he's been wonderful.

00:04:27.680 But I'm submitting these forms about my first marriage to whom?

00:04:32.700 Who are these people who get to review my personal private details and pass a judgment on my marriage?

00:04:40.360 You know?

00:04:41.000 And I went to my cardiologist recently, because I go once a year.

00:04:44.100 He's a Jewish man.

00:04:45.700 He tried to recruit me, Bishop.

00:04:47.240 He said, you know, in Judaism, we don't have any—there's no interloper.

00:04:51.920 It's just you and God.

00:04:54.620 And I've just really been wrestling with it.

00:04:58.020 There have just been a couple of experiences where I've been questioning why.

00:05:01.960 Why do I have to—who is the man making me jump through hoops in order to have a more authentic, blessed relationship with God?

00:05:11.740 So that's where I—it's a weird place, forgive me, to kick it off with you.

00:05:14.800 I wasn't even sure if I'd raise it, but seeing you and hearing your first answer, I'm like, I've got to do it.

00:05:19.400 Yeah, you know, there's so much we could say about it.

00:05:23.140 And my first instinct, really, is that I shouldn't be talking to you about this, because you should be talking to someone who's much closer to you and to the reality of the situation.

00:05:32.120 So it's a sensitive pastoral matter.

00:05:34.940 But I'll say just this.

00:05:37.820 It's the church's deep respect for marriage that's behind that whole process, so that the church respects the sacramentality of marriage.

00:05:45.060 And my instinct is, Megan, you're doing the right thing, and to be patient with the process and be patient with yourself.

00:05:53.520 I think you're making the right move.

00:05:56.140 The church respects marriage, and so it insists upon honoring marriage as much as possible.

00:06:03.240 And so, as you know, in the annulment process, the determination ultimately is, you know, a full sacramental marriage did not take place.

00:06:10.760 And the church, out of respect for marriage, takes the time to make that judgment.

00:06:17.040 But I would say trust the process and have patience with yourself as you're going through it.

00:06:22.600 I get the feelings, and I've dealt with people over the years who are going through a similar process and often are trying to process the same feelings.

00:06:30.740 So I get it.

00:06:32.380 I get the experience of it.

00:06:35.120 I would just urge you to be patient with yourself and with the process.

00:06:38.960 And maybe don't judge the church too harshly.

00:06:41.680 The church is trying to respect the integrity of marriage, and that's what stands behind it.

00:06:47.500 Well, I'll give you a glimmer of hope that I had in my own faith and my Catholicism.

00:06:52.640 So feeling somewhat disaffected, but also missing, like, mass and my rituals and just, you know, the way you feel when you don't take the sacrament.

00:07:03.560 I'm going to confess something to you, Father.

00:07:05.420 I went to an Episcopalian church.

00:07:08.780 I gave it a try.

00:07:10.420 I'm like, you know what?

00:07:11.440 It's kind of Catholic light.

00:07:13.200 Maybe I'll feel something here.

00:07:15.720 And I sat down, and within two minutes, first of all, we had a female priest, which, you know, that's a lot.

00:07:24.480 That's a big change from the way we do it in the Catholic church.

00:07:27.620 And I said, okay, it's fine.

00:07:28.860 I can forge through that.

00:07:30.260 And then everything was set up differently.

00:07:31.920 The priest came down into the aisle and was sort of preaching from the aisle.

00:07:34.720 I'm like, what's she doing over there?

00:07:36.680 Okay, fine.

00:07:37.400 The congregation turned.

00:07:38.660 Okay, we're turning now.

00:07:39.720 I don't know what's happening.

00:07:40.680 In the Catholic church, I know what the rituals are.

00:07:42.900 They hadn't updated the mass.

00:07:44.400 You know, we weren't saying, and with your spirit, you know, we're still saying it also with you.

00:07:48.460 It's the little things where you're like, okay, it's off.

00:07:50.040 It doesn't feel right.

00:07:50.820 And then her whole homily was about the trans issue and how we need to be much more accepting of trans kids, which I don't believe is a real thing.

00:08:03.200 I think that's really not what's happening to these kids.

00:08:06.740 They're being pushed with social agendas that probably in 99% of the cases don't match up.

00:08:12.200 And I think it's actually quite abusive.

00:08:13.820 And when she went on and on, and honestly, Bishop, I got up and I got right out of there after the homily.

00:08:18.900 And I thought, okay, this is not for me.

00:08:22.280 And there's a reason I'm generally drawn more to the faith with which I was raised, where there are these strict rules that sometimes feel weird and intrusive, but resonate with me, you know, from birth.

00:08:36.760 What are your thoughts on that?

00:08:37.660 Well, my first thought is stay with the Catholic Church.

00:08:41.820 You know, Cardinal George of Chicago, who is kind of a mentor to me, once said, the Catholic Church has all the gifts that Christ wants his people to have.

00:08:50.440 It doesn't mean other gifts of Christ aren't available in other Christian churches, but the Catholic Church has all the gifts Christ wants his people to have.

00:08:58.180 So I would say stay with it, you know, stick with it.

00:09:01.240 And then to your second point, I agree with that.

00:09:04.200 The Church's moral teachings are all about giving a sort of coherence to our lives.

00:09:08.900 Our culture says in a thousand different ways, you know, do what you want, as long as you're not hurting other people, follow your own, you know, instincts, follow your freedom.

00:09:18.720 And the Catholic Church has always stood for an integrity to the moral life.

00:09:22.740 There's a form to the moral life.

00:09:24.840 And so we can construe them as, you know, oppressive rules, or we can see them as an ancient tradition grounded in the Bible, grounded in Jesus, telling us about who we are and what the good life looks like and how to pursue it.

00:09:40.480 I mean, there it's a bit like someone who's teaching you the golf swing.

00:09:45.100 You don't want someone just handing you a golf club saying, you know, swing any way you want.

00:09:48.020 No, you want someone that really knows the game and knows how to put those moves into your body. 0.50

00:09:55.240 So that's the Church, I think, in its moral teaching, its spiritual teaching.

00:09:58.900 It's not trying to oppress us.

00:10:00.500 It's trying to give a form and purpose to our moral and spiritual lives.

00:10:05.440 So I would say, you know, stick with that program.

00:10:09.140 Yeah, you feel it.

00:10:10.280 You feel it on a cellular level when you grow up with it.

00:10:14.960 When you go to church every Sunday as a kid, when you go through, whatever, baptism, we don't remember, but confirmation.

00:10:21.700 The body matters.

00:10:23.960 No, I think the way you put it is really right from a Catholic standpoint, the cellular level, because the Church, we belong to the mystical body of Jesus.

00:10:32.060 We're connected to each other.

00:10:33.600 And Christ's life is meant to get into us, not just our minds, not just our hearts.

00:10:38.760 It's meant to get into our bodies, which is why things like genuflection and gesture and our physical stance while we pray, et cetera, et cetera, all of that is meant to bring us into conformity with Christ.

00:10:51.460 So I like the fact that you felt that at a cellular level.

00:10:55.200 That makes sense to me.

00:10:56.320 Well, I know you've been reeling about the people not understanding when they take communion that it actually is the body of Christ, right?

00:11:08.740 That most people, most Catholics even, don't really believe that.

00:11:12.240 We had a comedian on the show a couple years ago who was hilarious, I must tell you.

00:11:15.620 And she's Catholic.

00:11:16.640 And she was talking about how she goes up there and she takes the body of Christ.

00:11:19.500 And she was like, which part of the body?

00:11:21.760 Did I get like a leg?

00:11:23.480 Forgive me, but it was kind of funny.

00:11:26.640 That may be taking it too far.

00:11:28.340 But can you speak about that?

00:11:29.860 Because that moment, I think a lot of people just kind of go through it and they don't give a lot of thought to it.

00:11:33.880 Yeah, that's precisely the wrong way to think about it.

00:11:36.280 Because she's conflating substance and accident, if you want to use technical language.

00:11:40.420 The Church says that what God says is, right?

00:11:43.660 So God creates through an act of speech.

00:11:45.900 God doesn't know the world derivatively, but God knows the world into being.

00:11:50.640 So the Bible expresses that poetically as God says, let there be light and there's light, right?

00:11:54.800 So what God says, what God knows is.

00:11:58.860 Well, if Jesus is God, then what Jesus says is.

00:12:02.540 And the night before he dies, he takes the bread and says, this is my body.

00:12:06.620 Takes the cup, this is my blood.

00:12:08.720 And the idea there is that at the root and most central fundamental level, the being of those elements has changed.

00:12:17.880 So it's no longer proper to say bread or wine.

00:12:20.860 We now say the body and blood of Christ.

00:12:23.000 It's not through our power.

00:12:24.680 It's through the power of God who, by his speech, changes reality.

00:12:30.660 I mean, we know that too.

00:12:31.580 Our puny human speech can change reality.

00:12:34.460 I can say something that hurts someone very deeply.

00:12:38.640 I can say something that lifts them up and changes their life.

00:12:43.480 Well, if our little speech can affect reality, God's speech affects it at the deepest possible level.

00:12:50.980 And that's what we say when we say the substance of the bread changes into the body of Christ.

00:12:56.800 The substance of the wine changes.

00:12:58.660 It means at the deepest level of their being, they become what God says they are.

00:13:05.360 That's, I think, at the root of the Catholic understanding of the real presence.

00:13:11.740 So as we go into this weekend and we take a moment to reflect on our own sins and what happened to Jesus on that cross, what happens?

00:13:21.600 Like, we go through this process where, you know, Saturday comes, we reflect more, and by Sunday, the heaviness of all of that, is it supposed to still be with us?

00:13:32.980 Are we supposed to be leaning toward the heaviness of it?

00:13:35.640 Or by Sunday, do we try to let it go and experience the joy of resurrection and what it means for the rest of us?

00:13:43.840 We say alleluia, and we experience the joy of resurrection.

00:13:48.560 But there's a basic spiritual principle, which is found in all the great spiritual teachers.

00:13:53.680 The only way up is down.

00:13:55.380 See, there's a kind of phony, cheap grace that wants to just avoid sin. 1.00

00:14:00.380 Let's just rush to the mountain of grace.

00:14:02.760 But all the masters say this, and it's in the Bible, of course, too.

00:14:05.660 The only way truly to go up is first to go down.

00:14:08.980 Think of the great Dante's Divine Comedy.

00:14:12.200 You know, he has to go down through hell, which means he has to confront his own sin.

00:14:17.800 Then he has to climb up Mount Purgatory to deal with that.

00:14:21.480 And then he's ready for grace.

00:14:24.700 So it's the both and. 0.52

00:14:26.680 You know, there's a cheap grace that wants to go around it. 0.98

00:14:29.360 There's also a preoccupation with sin, right?

00:14:32.640 My whole spiritual life is about acknowledging I'm a sinner.

00:14:35.740 Well, that's dysfunctional, too.

00:14:38.460 It's you go down to go up.

00:14:40.720 And so that's what the church does during Holy Week, is it draws us down so that we experience our sin, we experience the cross, and then it brings us up.

00:14:51.620 And both those moves are indispensable.

00:14:53.780 You know, Easter has become one of those holidays, like Christmas, where, you know, too many of us, and especially kids, know it for all of its commercialized aspects.

00:15:07.540 The Easter bunny, the candy, the eggs, you know, dying the eggs and so on.

00:15:12.880 Same as Christmas with presents and Santa and the whole bit.

00:15:15.840 Some of this stuff is a little weird.

00:15:19.180 Do you have any idea, like, why don't we get to the point in America where we have, like, a weird bunny coming into our house?

00:15:25.440 Any thoughts on that?

00:15:26.880 I don't think that came from the Catholic Church.

00:15:28.500 No, it came from an attempt to domesticate Easter.

00:15:32.560 And I get that instinct, because Easter is a revolutionary feast.

00:15:38.220 It's an earthquake.

00:15:39.980 It turns the world upside down.

00:15:41.960 Jesus is done to death by the powers of the world. 0.99

00:15:47.420 And the passion narratives, we hear them at Palm Sunday, we hear them again on Good Friday, is they show you all the power of the world in its cruelty, its injustice, its stupidity, you know, its corruption. 0.95

00:16:00.500 And all of that brings Jesus to the cross. 0.82

00:16:03.140 And you say, well, okay, there's the story of the world, right?

00:16:05.960 So it has always gone, is wicked people, wicked institutions, crush, you know, whatever is good.

00:16:13.000 But then when God raises Jesus from the dead, what that does is it gives the lie to that story.

00:16:20.420 And it says that God's love is more powerful than anything that's in the world.

00:16:24.800 It's more powerful than corruption.

00:16:26.740 It's more powerful than injustice.

00:16:28.740 It's more powerful than violence.

00:16:30.540 And that means the tyrants have to tremble.

00:16:33.600 Well, that's why, you know, the first proclaimers of the Christian message were sent to jail. 0.92

00:16:41.060 And most of them were put to death because those who heard them understood the message.

00:16:47.320 The message was the powers of the world have just been undone.

00:16:51.000 There is a new king.

00:16:53.480 So St. Paul refers to Jesus as Lord.

00:16:56.500 He calls him kurios, right?

00:16:58.280 And we think that's a very spiritual kind of language.

00:17:00.380 But at the time, Caesar was Lord.

00:17:03.860 Caesar was called kurios.

00:17:05.780 And so when Paul says, no, not Caesar, but Jesus kurios, Jesus is Lord, that turned the whole world upside down.

00:17:12.980 That meant there's a new boss in town.

00:17:14.860 There's a new emperor in whose army we should get.

00:17:19.200 And it ain't Caesar.

00:17:21.020 Well, they got that message.

00:17:22.780 And that message resonates up and down the centuries to the present day, which is why the powers always want to domesticate Easter, to turn into a little spring festival or it's a, you know, it's like any of the old myths of the dying and rising crops or, you know, whatever.

00:17:40.900 Or the Easter bunny.

00:17:42.600 Sure, domesticate it.

00:17:43.740 Turn it into something harmless because at its heart, it's a revolutionary message.

00:17:47.960 Hmm.

00:17:49.840 So if you had your way, and I won't share this with the kids out there, would we be doing presents at Christmas with Santa and baskets at Easter with bunnies or no?

00:18:00.740 No, sure.

00:18:01.200 As long as you also tell the great story in a way that's appropriate to their age.

00:18:04.660 But I have no quarrel with, you know, if you want to use Easter bunny, the kids.

00:18:08.940 But tell them the real story, too.

00:18:11.380 Bring them to church, too.

00:18:12.680 You know, the fact that so many young people have disaffiliated from religion, that's not just an institutional problem for, you know, for Catholic bishops.

00:18:21.900 That's an existential problem for the entire country, you know, because the human heart is ordered to God.

00:18:28.860 And so when young people especially are staying away in droves from these great rituals, from this great message, man, it's doing damage to their hearts and souls.

00:18:39.800 And I see that every day.

00:18:41.440 So I would say, you know, Easter bunny, fine, and Santa, but tell the true story as well.

00:18:48.120 You know, what's interesting, Megan, is do the Christmas story under the same rubric.

00:18:52.860 In Luke's famous version, it begins with Caesar Augustus, right?

00:18:56.980 When Caesar was emperor, when Quirinius was governor of Syria, and you think, okay, I'm going to tell a story about the powers that be.

00:19:03.020 And then he shifts you to this little nobody couple making their way to a little dusty town.

00:19:08.700 And born in this miserable cave is this baby that's wrapped in swaddling clothes and put in a manger where the animals eat.

00:19:17.920 And what you're meant to see is the contrast, because that's the real king.

00:19:23.200 That's what Luke is saying.

00:19:24.200 And one of the clues, by the way, in Christmas is at the end when the angel appears, and angels are always frightening.

00:19:32.380 But with the angel, it says a whole army of angels appear.

00:19:37.620 And that's the clue.

00:19:39.200 See, because Caesar dominated the world because he had this big human army.

00:19:43.300 Luke's point is, yeah, but the baby king's got the real army.

00:19:47.240 He's got an angelic army.

00:19:48.620 So Christmas story, too, is subversive of our expectations.

00:19:53.680 So send Christmas cards, but make sure you also tell the real story, which is a dangerous story.

00:20:00.800 I did read in preparation for today that our friends over in France don't have an Easter bunny.

00:20:06.680 They have Easter bells.

00:20:08.600 And the children there believe that the bells from the church travel and deliver the baskets, which is kind of fun.

00:20:16.400 And I guess it varies from place to place.

00:20:19.120 And I also found out, which I probably should have known, that Easter was not always an annual celebration.

00:20:24.580 That when things first started, it was kind of every other year.

00:20:29.220 The one thing about Easter that's a little odd for a lot of people is it's not on a set date.

00:20:35.160 You know, it's like kind of a month, like between late March and late April.

00:20:38.920 Why is that?

00:20:39.820 I mean, there was a date on which Christ rose again, the third day.

00:20:43.800 Like, why don't, why isn't that the date of Easter?

00:20:47.780 Well, we don't know for sure.

00:20:49.000 And it was a fight in the early church and the east and west went back and forth.

00:20:52.200 And the formula is Easter is the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox.

00:20:58.340 And that was determined a long, long time ago.

00:21:00.640 That's a lot.

00:21:01.160 And so we still follow that.

00:21:02.240 And that, you're right, it's roughly a month, therefore, variation.

00:21:05.380 It could be, you know, March 20th to like April 29th or something.

00:21:10.100 But, and so it goes, I, it's, that was a decision of the, of the early church.

00:21:14.640 One thing I love about that is it puts Easter within a cosmic framework.

00:21:18.460 The very fact that we related to the moon, we were related to the cosmic reality.

00:21:25.100 That's a, that's a correct instinct too.

00:21:27.920 What do you think when you see, I will say our church is very well attended.

00:21:31.540 I, I love it when, when you go and you see, you know, your shoulder to shoulder, like it's,

00:21:35.900 it's, I won't say every day is Christmas and Easter, you know, but it's not that quite that

00:21:39.660 well attended, but it's very well attended.

00:21:42.160 But of course, nothing's like Christmas and Easter.

00:21:44.340 And so when you see all the people come, all the Catholics who have not been there,

00:21:49.300 uh, a Sunday after Sunday, is it a hopeful thing for you?

00:21:53.740 Is it a, is it something you lament?

00:21:56.700 Like what, what can we be doing differently to get these people here more regularly?

00:21:59.540 How do you see it?

00:22:00.660 Yeah, no, I'm happy they're there.

00:22:02.640 And this has been true all my priesthood, you know, Christmas and Easter, you get these

00:22:05.840 giant crowds and people standing in the aisles and I'm always grateful they're there.

00:22:10.000 And I usually acknowledge that and thank people for coming.

00:22:12.840 I've said over, over the years, you know, we celebrate the Lord's resurrection every Sunday.

00:22:16.940 So please, you know, come back.

00:22:19.580 But that's been a shift, you know, in, in my years in the priesthood, when I first started

00:22:24.060 out, you know, we had big crowds on Sunday for mass that's changed.

00:22:28.860 I mean, there's no question about it.

00:22:30.240 That's declined over the years and especially among the young, you know, I've been following

00:22:34.640 this for many years, the disaffiliation problem, and it's now up to about 40% of Catholics under

00:22:41.220 30 have, have now disaffiliated.

00:22:43.720 As I say, that's a major spiritual problem.

00:22:47.440 And I've been trying to address it in a thousand different ways because I think it's problem

00:22:51.280 one in the church is the, is the thing we should be most concerned about.

00:22:55.220 How do we do something about that?

00:22:58.300 I mean, I've, I've heard you say priests and, and, you know, others need to get out

00:23:03.600 of the, out of the churches and into the communities and sort of meet the young people where they

00:23:09.320 are.

00:23:09.940 But how do you do that?

00:23:11.200 How do you like recruit disaffected Catholics back into the church?

00:23:16.580 Well, my wager has been social media.

00:23:18.500 So I started a long time ago now, even before we had U2, even before that, I said, look,

00:23:25.820 we need to move into that space.

00:23:27.660 They're not coming to our churches.

00:23:29.760 I was at the Synod on Young People, this was about five years ago in the Vatican, and it

00:23:34.300 was addressing this problem.

00:23:35.780 How do we reach the young people?

00:23:37.520 And person after person would get up at the Vatican, the Pope was there typically, and

00:23:41.700 would say some version of, well, we need a program in this or a program in that, and

00:23:46.640 we need to do this and that at the parish.

00:23:48.500 And finally, I just got fed up and I stood up and said, but folks, they're not coming

00:23:53.040 to our parishes anymore.

00:23:54.400 They're not coming to us.

00:23:55.860 We have to go to them.

00:23:57.700 And I think the best way to do it is, is to use the social media.

00:24:01.320 And that's been the wager behind my whole ministry in that regard.

00:24:05.900 And then I think you lead with the, the beautiful and the true.

00:24:12.120 Catholicism is a smart religion.

00:24:13.660 We dumbed it down.

00:24:14.580 That's the story of my generation.

00:24:16.860 I mean, we dumbed it down.

00:24:18.300 And the result is a lot of people in my generation left because they grew up and they realized

00:24:25.020 that a childish religiosity was not going to sustain them.

00:24:29.080 The other thing we did is we kind of de-beautified the religion. 0.86

00:24:32.760 Catholicism has used music and art and architecture, employing some of the finest artists of the

00:24:40.160 age to propagate its truth.

00:24:42.920 Well, we should still do that.

00:24:44.660 Present the faith in a way that's true and beautiful.

00:24:47.060 I think people will respond.

00:24:48.660 The third thing I would say is young people respond to the church's outreach to the poor.

00:24:54.400 And, and we're, we have a spectacular record on that up and down the centuries, but to the

00:25:00.360 present day, the work the church does all over the world on behalf of the poor is extraordinary.

00:25:07.820 Tell our young people about it, but more importantly, get them involved in it.

00:25:11.420 And, and you'll see, even when they talk to young people who have left, they'll say, I remember

00:25:17.940 when, you know, in confirmation class, we had an outreach to the homeless, or we worked

00:25:24.100 at a soup kitchen, or we, we reached out to the poor.

00:25:27.260 So those three things, the good, the beautiful, and the true, I think if we do those three

00:25:32.420 things, people still find the church compelling.

00:25:36.100 Mm-hmm.

00:25:37.760 Yeah.

00:25:38.040 It is one of those things where no matter where you go, foreign countries, what have

00:25:42.120 you, if, if you go into a Catholic church, you have some basic expectations of what you're

00:25:45.700 going to see.

00:25:46.600 And the beauty and the grandeur of the churches is one of them.

00:25:49.940 And when it's not there, it's kind of jarring.

00:25:52.440 It's unexpected.

00:25:53.560 And you almost wonder whether you're in a Catholic church, but to me, it makes it a lot easier 0.99

00:25:56.960 to feel connected to God, to pray, to feel just out of your everyday routine and at

00:26:03.600 an elevated level, which, which you should feel, I think when you're in church.

00:26:06.980 See, no, I like the word you use.

00:26:08.840 The young people is a problem. 1.00

00:26:09.760 Go ahead.

00:26:10.980 Yeah.

00:26:11.260 I was going to say the young people, the young people are a problem because I think they're 1.00

00:26:15.500 depressed.

00:26:16.180 You know, they're, there's been a lot of news about how they're not driving as early

00:26:21.720 as they can.

00:26:23.040 And forgive me, father, but they're not fooling around the way they used to.

00:26:27.680 And they're, they're not even like drinking the wine as soon as they can.

00:26:32.180 And they're just kind of sitting there.

00:26:35.040 Uh, there, a lot of them are on their devices.

00:26:37.040 They're not interacting with live humans as much and they feel depressed.

00:26:40.960 They feel anxious.

00:26:42.160 And I definitely believe that if those imaginary people, right, we don't have names and faces

00:26:48.380 in this particular discussion, had a religious base, had a faith-based life, they, they would

00:26:55.760 feel better.

00:26:56.420 They, these things wouldn't be as hard on them and they would embrace more of, you

00:27:01.460 know, sucking the nectar out of life at a young age.

00:27:03.660 Like, like we always have.

00:27:05.120 What do you think?

00:27:06.460 Yeah, I completely agree with that.

00:27:08.000 The woman that did the great research on that is Jean Twenge, who teaches in San Diego.

00:27:11.940 And she wrote a book called I, Jen, a couple of years ago.

00:27:14.400 And she's one of the first ones that I came across who was tracing this phenomenon.

00:27:18.620 And I was very intrigued by that too.

00:27:20.340 Because when I was, when I was 16, I mean, every one of my classmates, I did the same.

00:27:25.540 On our 16th birthday, we went to get our driver's license.

00:27:29.400 I remember my mother driving me down to the place on my 16th birthday, because we couldn't

00:27:34.240 imagine not getting our driver's license.

00:27:36.320 And she said, you know, today, that's just not the case.

00:27:38.920 The kids often wait a long time before getting their driver's license.

00:27:42.320 And then the spiking numbers of depression, anxiety, suicidal ideation, that's been well

00:27:49.460 documented.

00:27:50.680 Jean Twenge, again, is the one that said there's a tight correlation between screen time and

00:27:55.760 depression, which I find completely credible.

00:27:59.520 You know, we're all addicted to the screens now.

00:28:01.340 I mean, I am.

00:28:01.940 We all are.

00:28:02.420 The machines have addicted us.

00:28:05.100 But we should do all we can to get the kids off of the screens and outside playing and relating

00:28:11.420 to each other.

00:28:12.320 But then to your final point, yes, the loss of religion, the loss of a transcendent point

00:28:19.540 of reference is deadly for people because we're made for God, right?

00:28:24.740 Augustine said that, our hearts are restless till they rest in thee, O Lord.

00:28:30.240 When you lose that, you fall back in on yourself and you fall back to the world, and the world

00:28:35.260 cannot satisfy the deepest hunger of the heart.

00:28:38.160 And then another step here, you know, 20 years ago, the New Atheists were all the vogue, and 0.96

00:28:43.920 they were darn good evangelists, may I say.

00:28:46.740 In other words, they were very persuasive. 0.57

00:28:49.040 And a whole generation of young people bought into Hitchens and Dawkins and Sam Harris and

00:28:54.240 the New Atheists.

00:28:55.440 But see, what's the upshot of that?

00:28:57.460 So, okay, there's no God.

00:28:58.920 We didn't come from anywhere.

00:28:59.840 We came from nothing.

00:29:01.180 We go back to nothing.

00:29:02.660 And our lives have no objective meaning.

00:29:06.120 Oh, great.

00:29:06.720 You know, in your face, religion. 0.57

00:29:08.440 But when you take that message in, what do you have left?

00:29:12.660 You got nothing.

00:29:13.940 And the result is, are we surprised?

00:29:16.920 Depression, anxiety, suicidal tendencies.

00:29:19.860 So, yes, there's a tremendous need for religion.

00:29:24.180 And my last point here, you can sense it.

00:29:27.840 You can sense it in the internet culture, people reaching out for the spiritual.

00:29:36.600 Well, I mean, I'm very anti-woke.

00:29:39.880 I'm very, very against these people who seem to worship skin color or gender or sexual preferences.

00:29:47.720 It feels like a false god to me, and it definitely feels like a new religion. 1.00

00:29:52.800 And I firmly believe it's totally inconsistent with an actual faith-based life, that if you 0.93

00:29:57.680 were an actual observant Christian or Jew or Muslim, you'd be far less prone to these 0.89

00:30:04.020 lures.

00:30:05.740 What do you think?

00:30:07.420 Yeah, I've been an outspoken opponent of wokeism now for a long time, and I quite agree with 0.99

00:30:11.820 you.

00:30:11.900 It is a kind of false religion. 0.95

00:30:14.040 Chesterton said, when you stop believing in God, you don't believe in God.

00:30:17.720 You don't believe in nothing.

00:30:18.400 You'll believe in anything.

00:30:19.860 And so something will fill in that emptiness.

00:30:22.920 It has to.

00:30:23.900 There'll be some ultimate value.

00:30:25.900 So, you know, for some today, it might be the earth.

00:30:29.100 You know, it's environmentalism.

00:30:30.920 That becomes the supreme good.

00:30:32.580 Or this kind of phony sense of diversity, equity, and inclusion.

00:30:36.680 My biggest problem with wokeism is it's predicated upon a deeply antagonistic social theory.

00:30:44.300 I mean, it's setting us against each other in every possible way.

00:30:49.000 Catholic social theory is a cooperative social theory.

00:30:52.660 It's trying to bring people together in a harmonious, cooperative way.

00:30:56.520 But wokeism, in myriad ways, emphasizes our antagonism, one against the other.

00:31:04.800 The easy bifurcation of the world into oppressor and oppressed, which leaves all of us in a terrible

00:31:12.500 situation.

00:31:13.920 Well, young people taking that worldview in, that antagonistic social theory, I mean, that's

00:31:19.620 leading no place good.

00:31:20.700 I mean, we're hoping that it's starting to wane a bit as people see how empty it is and

00:31:27.100 divisive it is.

00:31:28.080 And, you know, like, I'm hoping that we're on the waning piece of that.

00:31:31.260 But there's not a day that goes by that I don't think we either need more religion or

00:31:35.440 someone has misunderstood religion.

00:31:37.760 You know, right now, as we are talking to one another, there's a debate all over the

00:31:41.220 internet about whether you should say the words, Christ is king, and whether saying that

00:31:47.840 is somehow an attack, and there's been a lot of back and forth about how if it's said to

00:31:53.060 a Jewish person as like, you know, New York Giants suck, you know, if there's an implication 0.80

00:32:00.220 that this is the only, right? 0.98

00:32:01.720 Like, if you believe differently than you're bad, then it's provocative, and it's using

00:32:07.720 the Lord's name in vain.

00:32:09.300 Whereas if you just state it as this is my belief, this is my religion, this is what's

00:32:13.300 in my heart, it's something totally different.

00:32:15.440 But there's, I mean, every day there's a debate like this going on in our news and

00:32:19.280 our social media and so on.

00:32:20.620 Have you seen that latest?

00:32:22.120 Oh, yeah, I have a little bit.

00:32:23.540 I've just become aware of it.

00:32:24.660 And a couple of things I'd say.

00:32:26.620 One is the Feast of Christ the King within the Catholic Church was instituted in the early

00:32:32.940 20th century, precisely by the popes who were recognizing the rise of fascism, which often

00:32:39.180 had a very deeply anti-Semitic quality.

00:32:40.960 And they saw the danger of fascism was, a deification of the state.

00:32:46.100 So that's trouble with all forms of totalitarianism.

00:32:48.640 The state becomes absolutized.

00:32:50.540 In saying, no, Christ is king, they're putting a moral and spiritual authority over the state.

00:32:57.300 You know, the fact that we're one nation under God, that's not just pious boilerplate.

00:33:03.300 That's a very important intuition, that all of our political leaders, all of our institutions,

00:33:10.000 all of our laws are finally under God, under God's judgment.

00:33:14.400 Well, that's what Christ the King means.

00:33:17.260 Here's the second thing I mentioned already.

00:33:18.900 When the first proclaimers of the resurrection said, Jesus is Lord.

00:33:23.360 Jesus is Lord.

00:33:25.360 But look at the deep irony of that.

00:33:27.800 To construe that as, okay, Caesar, you're out, and there's a new Caesar who's defeated

00:33:32.960 you on your own terms.

00:33:34.300 That's missing the whole point.

00:33:36.280 The fact that Pilate, who put over the cross of Jesus, Jesus Nazarenus Rex Hudaorum, right? 0.55

00:33:43.720 Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews.

00:33:45.780 Well, we're meant to see the tremendous irony in that is the one who has no worldly authority,

00:33:52.580 the one who has no worldly power, no worldly honor, just the opposite, is the one who, in

00:33:58.640 fact, is the king.

00:34:01.040 So it's not playing the old game of, you know, us against them, or I'm going to fight your

00:34:06.720 king on his own terms and take his place.

00:34:09.380 It's a revolution.

00:34:11.360 It's a renewal of understanding.

00:34:13.700 If you miss the irony of the declaration that Christ is king, you're missing the whole story.

00:34:20.560 You know what I'm saying?

00:34:21.280 So that's why your point about, you know, hey, you guys, you're no good, and I'm on the

00:34:25.880 winning team.

00:34:26.880 That's missing all the irony of this naked man pinned to a cross, bereft of any of the

00:34:34.540 goods of the world, and he's rightly declared to be the king.

00:34:38.240 I'm sure you saw the Politico White House correspondent speaking out on religion on MSNBC in a way that

00:34:50.680 talk about completely missing it.

00:34:53.580 She was outraged.

00:34:54.840 I guess she's never read any of our founding documents or attended a mass, but she was outraged

00:34:59.780 that there are some of us who believe that our inalienable rights come from God and not from men.

00:35:07.100 And she made, I think it's fair to say, international headlines and was almost universally condemned

00:35:12.720 for the following nonsense that she spewed. 0.98

00:35:16.460 I'll play it in part in Soundbite 3.

00:35:18.240 Remember when Trump ran in 2016, a lot of the mainline evangelicals wanted nothing to do

00:35:25.720 with the divorced, you know, real estate mogul who cheated on his wife and with a porn star

00:35:31.680 and all of that, right?

00:35:32.480 So what happened was he was surrounded by this more extremist element.

00:35:37.640 You're going to hear words like Christian nationalism, like the new apostolic reformation.

00:35:43.040 These are groups that you should get very, very schooled on because they have a lot of

00:35:49.080 power in Trump's circle.

00:35:50.880 And the one thing that unites all of them, because there's many different groups orbiting

00:35:53.960 Trump, but the thing that unites them as Christian nationalists, not Christians, by the way, because

00:35:59.780 Christian nationalists is very different, is that they believe that our rights as Americans,

00:36:04.440 as all human beings don't come from any earthly authority.

00:36:08.520 They don't come from Congress.

00:36:09.420 They don't come from their Supreme Court.

00:36:10.700 They come from God.

00:36:11.520 The problem with that is that they are determining, man, men, and it is men, are determining what

00:36:18.460 God is telling them.

00:36:21.300 So only this weird group of Christian nationalists believes that.

00:36:26.000 Got it, Bishop? 0.88

00:36:26.760 It's just these weirdos who think rights come from God. 0.98

00:36:30.580 Not Christians. 1.00

00:36:31.840 They don't believe.

00:36:32.920 Anyway, your thoughts on Heidi Prisbala and her thoughts on Christianity.

00:36:37.980 Yeah.

00:36:38.260 I spoke out against her when I first came across that, and on her reading, I guess Thomas Jefferson

00:36:43.340 would be a Christian nationalist.

00:36:45.140 But see, again, that's not just pious boilerplate when Jefferson says that these inalienable rights

00:36:51.440 of ours come from the creator.

00:36:52.980 If they come from Congress and the Supreme Court, then they can be taken away.

00:36:59.520 And you see that, of course, in the totalitarianisms of the 20th century.

00:37:03.100 That's exactly what happened.

00:37:04.600 If rights are doled out by the state, the state can take them back.

00:37:10.040 Jefferson's claim there is so important because he places the whole governmental enterprise under the judgment of God,

00:37:16.640 under the authority of God.

00:37:17.980 When we forget that, we are in very serious political danger.

00:37:22.620 See, totalitarianism is—I think Reagan had that right.

00:37:26.380 It'll come more likely through that kind of liberalism.

00:37:30.800 It'll sneak the totalitarian perspective into the back door. 0.96

00:37:35.200 That's a very dangerous perspective.

00:37:37.720 Not just wrongheaded.

00:37:38.760 It's dangerous.

00:37:40.740 It used to be so different.

00:37:42.580 And, you know, I mean, we've had so many references to God in the public square from, you know, go to the Supreme Court.

00:37:49.660 Look at our founding documents.

00:37:51.420 It used to be a non-issue.

00:37:53.100 It would have been strange if we didn't have it.

00:37:55.540 You look at how America was when it was founded.

00:37:57.380 It was a very religious country, very Christian country.

00:38:00.500 And now, I mean, I feel like if those founding fathers could get a glimpse at 2024 America, they truly would not recognize it.

00:38:07.920 And one of the ways in which they wouldn't recognize it is the absence of religion, religion, how it's been shoved out of the public square and even more and more out of the private square, out of people's homes.

00:38:18.020 And in its place, not only do we get wokeism and depression and anxiety, we get, forgive me for sounding 200, but debauchery.

00:38:27.140 You know, we get more and more public nudity and sexual acts on parade in front of kids in the public square and things that, you know, you would never want your child to see, nor your own innocent eyes.

00:38:42.540 But it's, you're scrolling Twitter and there it is.

00:38:45.180 You're just channel surfing and there it is.

00:38:47.560 And then you walk to the public library and there it is.

00:38:50.680 I don't, I think these things are definitely linked.

00:38:52.900 And I do think are a source of real consternation for many of us.

00:38:58.180 Absolutely.

00:38:58.900 You know, again, if God's kicked out, something will move into that central place.

00:39:04.460 In our context, you might say it's our own freedom.

00:39:07.900 It's the autonomy of the ego becomes God-like.

00:39:12.740 And that's something I've noticed even in the course of my lifetime, how that language has become so intensified.

00:39:19.160 Roe v. Wade, the abortion debate had a lot to do with it.

00:39:21.680 But broaden that out across the board, that I have the right, the privilege, the capacity to determine what did Casey versus Planned Parenthood say?

00:39:32.860 The meaning of my own life, indeed, the meaning of the universe.

00:39:38.240 The most breathtaking claim ever made by the U.S. Supreme Court was Casey versus Planned Parenthood.

00:39:43.800 But see, that view has now trickled down to every teenager in America, practically.

00:39:49.060 My ego has a God-like power to determine my gender, to determine value, to determine the purpose and meaning of my life, rather than discovering the great goods by which my life ought to be directed.

00:40:05.140 And that was traditionally the role of religion, education too, you know, but I'd say primarily religion, was to teach the hierarchy of values in relation to which our lives become meaningful.

00:40:18.760 And again, to use my maybe corny golf example, but that you find a teacher and you find a mentor who knows golf and knows the moves of the golf swing and can place it within your own ambit, in your mind, in your body.

00:40:33.920 If you just say, well, I'll swing any way I want, who are you to tell me what to do?

00:40:38.120 Well, great, but you'll be the worst golfer in the world.

00:40:41.560 But the same, see, is true of the moral life and the spiritual life.

00:40:44.640 I'll decide the meaning of my life.

00:40:46.940 Well, all right, you can do that, I suppose, but you'll have a miserable life, you know.

00:40:52.860 The Bible, by the way, knew all about this.

00:40:54.840 It's called the original sin.

00:40:56.160 So, symbolically, eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is saying, I appropriate to myself the knowledge of good and evil.

00:41:04.680 I will determine good and evil, where that's only what God can do, which is why that tree is forbidden.

00:41:10.620 It's not God being difficult or being tyrannical.

00:41:13.320 Well, it's acknowledging the metaphysical truth that God is the ground of meaning and purpose.

00:41:18.640 And then he says, look, once you know that, eat of all the trees you want.

00:41:23.240 And that means live your life to the full.

00:41:26.060 Have a richly human life at all levels.

00:41:28.780 But don't arrogate to yourself the determination of good and evil.

00:41:34.300 I think that's what we see a lot in our culture today.

00:41:37.660 And it's partially the result of a breakdown in religion.

00:41:40.920 Yeah.

00:41:41.680 It's all around us.

00:41:42.880 I mean, you can't turn on the television today without getting something very graphically R-rated, to put it mildly.

00:41:49.600 Yeah.

00:41:49.780 And it was very different, you know, even when I was born in 1970, both in terms of our movies and our television shows, our plays and our songs, our music.

00:42:01.040 You know, my pal Ben Shapiro over at Daily Wire did this great thing after, I'm not even going to go there, but this very X-rated song came out by, it was Megan Thee Stallion, I think, and it was Cardi B.

00:42:14.600 And he was mocking it because it was so graphic and it was so gross.

00:42:19.240 And you think back to the way it was in the 60s, let's say, when even the free love generation, it wasn't that, like the music was conducive toward worship and faith and love and God.

00:42:31.960 It wasn't quite this way.

00:42:33.880 And that brings me to your love of music and in particular, Bob Dylan.

00:42:38.940 So can you explain why you love Bob Dylan so much and what got you connected to him in that way?

00:42:47.000 Yeah.

00:42:47.800 It first happened in, I was 14, and my brother had this album called The Concert for Bangladesh.

00:42:55.380 I don't know if you remember that.

00:42:56.140 George Harrison and Ringo Starr and Eric Clapton and Billy Preston, all these people got together to benefit Bangladesh, which had gone through a terrible flood, right?

00:43:05.020 It was one of the first kind of benefit concerts, which has now become very common.

00:43:10.100 And there was a recording of that concert.

00:43:12.140 And on it, I heard for the first time Bob Dylan, who was like the secret sort of star of the show.

00:43:18.600 And Dylan came out with his acoustic guitar and harmonica and played like five of his really classic songs.

00:43:25.580 And I was 14, as I say, probably just discovering in school what poetry is and how poetry works, you know, the power of language used in that way.

00:43:36.700 And I'm hearing this peculiar voice.

00:43:39.960 I never heard someone sing like that.

00:43:42.420 But it was the way he was using language.

00:43:45.560 I remember the song, Hard Rain's Gonna Fall, which is one of his great classic songs.

00:43:49.020 And it moved me very deeply, and it started me on this path that I've never left.

00:43:54.920 I've been an ardent follower of Bob Dylan ever since.

00:43:58.360 But one thing about Bob Dylan, to your point, if you're looking for the one great sort of golden thread that runs through all that Bob Dylan's work from 1962 until today, it would be the Bible.

00:44:11.160 Now, he has an explicitly Christian period in the late 70s, early 80s, but all throughout his career, all these decades, I would say the Bible is the main inspiration for Bob Dylan.

00:44:23.840 And his vision of life is deeply biblical.

00:44:29.040 So he's had a big impact on my own thinking.

00:44:32.240 I'd say my own development as a spiritual person.

00:44:34.780 Yeah, a very big impact.

00:44:37.180 I understand you actually took to playing guitar and singing some songs, including Bob Dylan's Every Grain of Sand.

00:44:44.840 And we happen to have a little clip of that, Bishop.

00:44:47.200 Let's take a look.

00:44:47.560 Oh, come on. 0.87

00:44:48.820 Of course.

00:44:51.560 Gone from rags to riches

00:44:54.020 In the sorrow of the night

00:44:57.560 In the violence of a summer's dream

00:45:01.740 In the chill of a wintry light

00:45:05.100 In the bitter dance of loneliness

00:45:08.820 Fading into space

00:45:12.480 In the broken mirror of innocence

00:45:16.720 On each forgotten face

00:45:20.060 Well done.

00:45:23.760 That was for Bob Dylan's 80th birthday.

00:45:26.660 That was four years ago when he turned 80.

00:45:28.400 I was going to do a little spoken tribute

00:45:31.440 And I thought, you know, for his 80th birthday

00:45:33.440 I should do something a little special.

00:45:35.260 So that's maybe my top two or three favorite songs of Bob Dylan.

00:45:40.780 Was he your inspo for learning guitar?

00:45:44.580 Yeah.

00:45:45.000 Oh, yeah.

00:45:45.480 I started the guitar when I was in college.

00:45:47.540 A buddy of mine played and taught me a few basic chords.

00:45:50.040 But absolutely.

00:45:50.840 The first book I ever got, music book,

00:45:52.880 Was, you know, the big fat Bob Dylan songbook.

00:45:55.400 And that's how I learned how to play.

00:45:57.220 Yeah.

00:45:58.400 But every story about him is great.

00:45:59.880 I don't know how many years ago, 10 or so.

00:46:02.440 He was, there was this guy who was walking down the streets.

00:46:05.220 I think he was in Ohio.

00:46:06.340 I always forget the story.

00:46:07.180 I got to Google it.

00:46:08.440 And the cops pulled him over saying,

00:46:11.660 Oh, yeah.

00:46:12.060 You look like a vagrant, right? 0.76

00:46:13.300 Like, why don't you get in the car?

00:46:14.900 You're not allowed to wander here.

00:46:16.740 He was wandering looking for Bruce Springsteen's house.

00:46:19.620 Bob Dylan likes to go to...

00:46:21.060 Yeah, it was Bob Dylan.

00:46:21.300 They had no idea.

00:46:22.880 Right.

00:46:23.220 He likes to go to the homes of famous musicians that he admires.

00:46:26.800 And he was somewhere in Jersey, you know.

00:46:29.920 And he was during the day and he didn't have his wallet on him or anything.

00:46:35.020 And he looks kind of scraggly and he's just wandering around this neighborhood.

00:46:38.780 And the cops pulled him over and he said, I'm Bob Dylan.

00:46:41.940 And it meant nothing to...

00:46:42.980 It was a young lady, a police officer.

00:46:45.280 And then he said, well, just drive me back to this hotel and you'll see the tour bus.

00:46:48.940 And then she saw it and realized who he was.

00:46:52.540 But yeah.

00:46:52.900 Such a great story.

00:46:54.140 That's perfection.

00:46:55.440 I love it.

00:46:56.060 I'm Megan Kelly, host of The Megan Kelly Show on SiriusXM.

00:47:00.100 It's your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations

00:47:03.680 with the most interesting and important political, legal, and cultural figures today.

00:47:08.120 You can catch The Megan Kelly Show on Triumph,

00:47:10.340 a SiriusXM channel featuring lots of hosts you may know and probably love.

00:47:15.320 Great people like Dr. Laura, Glenn Beck, Nancy Grace, Dave Ramsey,

00:47:20.200 and yours truly, Megan Kelly.

00:47:22.580 You can stream The Megan Kelly Show on SiriusXM at home or anywhere you are.

00:47:27.080 No car required.

00:47:28.780 I do it all the time.

00:47:29.840 I love the SiriusXM app.

00:47:32.420 It has ad-free music coverage of every major sport, comedy, talk, podcast, and more.

00:47:38.120 Subscribe now.

00:47:38.840 Get your first three months for free.

00:47:40.700 Go to SiriusXM.com slash MKShow to subscribe

00:47:45.020 and get three months free.

00:47:47.060 That's SiriusXM.com slash MKShow

00:47:50.300 and get three months free.

00:47:52.940 Offer details apply.

00:47:59.140 You have had plenty of real-life interactions with well-known people.

00:48:03.400 I mentioned it when we introduced you

00:48:05.060 because this whole Shia LaBeouf encounter

00:48:08.920 would wind up being very profound for him.

00:48:12.040 And he was raised, as I understand it, his dad was Catholic

00:48:17.280 and his mom was Jewish, or his dad was at least Christian.

00:48:20.840 Christian, I think, yeah.

00:48:22.120 And you wound up confirming him in the Catholic faith.

00:48:25.860 So how did that happen?

00:48:26.820 Yeah.

00:48:27.000 Well, it's an interesting story.

00:48:29.420 You know, he was researching his role in this movie about Padre Pio,

00:48:35.280 who was a Capuchin friar.

00:48:37.280 And Shia, at that point in his life, was a little bit lost, I think.

00:48:40.620 And the producer said,

00:48:42.460 well, there's a Capuchin friary outside of L.A.

00:48:46.080 And it was in my pastoral region.

00:48:48.440 So I was an auxiliary bishop of Los Angeles.

00:48:51.240 And my region was Santa Barbara County and Ventura County.

00:48:56.280 So out in Santa Barbara County is this Capuchin friary.

00:49:00.700 And so I had heard that Shia LaBeouf had gone out there

00:49:03.660 and was talking to the friars.

00:49:05.940 Well, then maybe a week or so later,

00:49:07.980 I was at another friary out that way

00:49:12.220 to give a talk to the deacons of my region.

00:49:15.600 And I show up and here I see this guy.

00:49:18.300 It was during COVID.

00:49:19.160 He had the big black beard and the COVID mask.

00:49:22.100 So at first I didn't know who it was.

00:49:24.000 And then I realized, oh, that's Shia LaBeouf.

00:49:26.780 And he said, do you mind if I listen to your talk?

00:49:29.340 It was a talk on prayer.

00:49:30.980 I said, no, no, sure, come on in.

00:49:33.020 So he listened to my talk.

00:49:35.680 And then I went to the chapel, I remember,

00:49:37.660 to pray before the blessed sacrament.

00:49:39.460 And he came in and sat right next to me

00:49:42.020 and was, I think, trying to figure out,

00:49:44.000 okay, what are these people doing as they pray?

00:49:47.340 Well, then a little bit later, the movie itself was made

00:49:50.540 and he showed us an early version of it, a group of us.

00:49:55.300 But afterwards, he was asked,

00:49:57.540 hey, tell me about the impact it had on you personally.

00:50:01.060 And he told this beautiful story in a very compelling way.

00:50:05.200 About how researching Padre Pio and playing him brought him to a deep spiritual place.

00:50:11.520 So I went up afterward and said, you know, look,

00:50:13.500 would you be willing to get this sort of on tape if you and I sit down and just talk it through?

00:50:18.100 And he said, yeah, I'd love that.

00:50:19.600 And so it was the very last thing I did before I left California to come to Minnesota.

00:50:24.240 I sat down with him and for an hour and a half, I guess,

00:50:27.420 we just talked about his spiritual life and his journey.

00:50:31.360 And that little video was watched by, I don't know, like 3 million people or something.

00:50:34.940 So, and then I gave him a lot of credit.

00:50:38.800 You know, he started the process.

00:50:40.240 He was articulate about it, but he hung in there as well.

00:50:44.040 And he had been baptized as a young kid, but now he wanted to be confirmed in the Catholic Church.

00:50:49.820 And so he kept working with these Capuchin friars whom he knew.

00:50:53.560 And then I agreed to come out and do the confirmation service, which I did at the very end of December, 2023.

00:51:02.240 So it's been a privilege to walk with him.

00:51:05.640 Maybe I need to play a Catholic bishop in some sort of a movie.

00:51:11.040 That could be of help to me.

00:51:12.780 We have a little clip of you and Shia talking about this whole experience when he came on your YouTube channel.

00:51:17.600 Here it is.

00:51:18.040 It's hot too.

00:51:18.860 Yeah.

00:51:19.080 You do this talk about prayer and how it's really a simple four-step process prayer, you know.

00:51:26.660 And I needed somebody to simplify it for me because it felt like, one, I needed to be defined.

00:51:32.340 I didn't want it to be this esoteric.

00:51:34.600 I needed something very defined and very practical.

00:51:37.880 I needed something very like boots on the ground.

00:51:40.680 And you said quiet leads to loving thoughts.

00:51:43.780 Loving thoughts leads to loving action.

00:51:46.280 Loving action leads to peace.

00:51:47.560 And that hit me heavy.

00:51:50.520 Mother Teresa, I was quoting there.

00:51:52.060 Whoever it was, it's changed my life.

00:51:56.240 Quiet leads to loving thoughts.

00:51:58.580 I mean, does it depend on the person?

00:52:01.080 I think quiet can drive some people crazy in today's day and age.

00:52:04.360 And they're used to the constant stimulation of, you know, all the devices.

00:52:08.080 Yeah, well, he's remembering my citation of Mother Teresa because she begins with silence, memorably.

00:52:16.220 She ends up with peace and coming through, you know, the works of love and all that.

00:52:20.460 But she begins with silence, that that has to be your first step.

00:52:25.080 And I do think, especially today, that's very much needed.

00:52:29.780 People are so distracted.

00:52:31.060 And so just to come to a silent place where God can start to speak, you know, is indispensable.

00:52:39.020 Well, I'll try that.

00:52:40.340 I talk so much, but I'm willing to try it.

00:52:43.580 Why not?

00:52:44.360 So now you're in Minnesota.

00:52:47.240 And how are you enjoying that after having been in Santa Barbara for so long?

00:52:51.920 Did you, I mean, with all due respect to Minnesota, did you do something wrong?

00:52:55.260 How did you, because that's a big shift weather-wise.

00:53:00.640 No, but this is the way the church works.

00:53:02.120 I'm from Chicago originally.

00:53:03.460 So coming here, it was, you know, like coming home.

00:53:05.680 I was back to the Midwest.

00:53:06.820 So I grew up with, you know, terrible winters and all that.

00:53:09.960 So that was not a problem.

00:53:11.620 I was in Santa Barbara for six years.

00:53:13.420 I was auxiliary bishop.

00:53:14.860 And the church often works that way, though.

00:53:17.140 If they're making you a bishop, they make you an auxiliary first in a big archdiocese

00:53:21.900 that would have auxiliaries, right?

00:53:23.880 And then they move you to, let's say, a small to medium-sized diocese.

00:53:28.200 And then, you know, maybe, you never know, another one.

00:53:31.780 But so, no, that trajectory is not unusual at all.

00:53:34.700 And it's really what's open at the time, you know?

00:53:37.820 So where do they need a bishop?

00:53:39.460 And they start looking around, oh, now who might be able to do it?

00:53:42.240 Oh, this guy could do it.

00:53:43.420 So there's simply nothing unusual about that trajectory.

00:53:46.880 I love it.

00:53:48.000 I'm the, what we call the ordinary, meaning I'm the bishop of this diocese.

00:53:52.620 So I can really provide spiritual leadership.

00:53:55.300 When you're an auxiliary, by definition, you're giving auxilium.

00:54:00.040 You're giving help to the archbishop.

00:54:02.640 But you're not yourself kind of providing the main leadership.

00:54:06.860 So I like that.

00:54:08.120 I like the fact that I can really be the shepherd of this diocese.

00:54:11.740 And it's a lovely diocese.

00:54:13.960 I live just five minutes away from the Mayo Clinic.

00:54:16.460 So near Rochester, which is a very interesting city.

00:54:19.980 A lot of my diocese is rural.

00:54:22.960 You know, beautiful farmers and people that live in a rural context.

00:54:28.180 So, you know, I enjoy it.

00:54:29.780 I make my way around the diocese.

00:54:31.800 I go from Wisconsin to South Dakota.

00:54:33.880 So I cover a lot of territory.

00:54:35.060 What's your favorite part of the job?

00:54:38.700 Preaching.

00:54:40.340 And, you know, Vatican II said the first office of the bishop is to preach.

00:54:45.540 And I take that very seriously.

00:54:47.360 So, you know, when you're a bishop, you're priest, prophet, and king.

00:54:51.580 So as priest, you sanctify it.

00:54:53.960 That's the whole liturgical work.

00:54:56.280 And there's a lot of that.

00:54:57.840 Yesterday, for example, was the Chrism Mass.

00:55:00.340 So it's the Mass where we bless the oils for the year.

00:55:03.980 During the Holy Week, of course, you're very active liturgically.

00:55:06.780 But all during the year, I do a lot of priestly things.

00:55:09.860 Then you're a king, which just means you're the one who kind of governs and you, you know, you direct the activity of the diocese.

00:55:16.680 But then the third thing is you're a prophet, which means you're a teacher and a preacher.

00:55:21.440 And Vatican II, as I say, said that's office number one, is preaching.

00:55:24.920 And I think today, for all the reasons we've been talking about, it's the most needful thing, is to articulate what the Christian faith is about.

00:55:34.840 So wherever I land, you know, any place I go in this diocese, I will preach in some way.

00:55:41.000 I'll teach in some way.

00:55:42.680 And that's my favorite part of the job.

00:55:44.080 Has anything wacky ever happened to you while you're up there delivering the homily?

00:55:49.480 Has anybody ever shouted out?

00:55:51.300 I just always wonder, because it's in part a performance, and people love to mess with people who are performing.

00:55:58.360 Not a lot, but sometimes.

00:55:59.620 Sure, I've been preaching for, what, 38 years, you know, and just a little misadventures.

00:56:04.640 I remember years ago, I wore contacts.

00:56:07.140 And this was back in the day, they were called gas permeable hard lenses, which is a fancy way of saying they were really uncomfortable.

00:56:15.820 And I was preaching with the contact lenses in front of, like, 700 people, and something got in my eye.

00:56:22.820 And I just started, like, to weep, like, just water coming out.

00:56:26.400 And the people said they were so moved that I was so affected by my, I said, no, no, it's the contact lens.

00:56:34.220 I had to run off the altar and change it, you know.

00:56:36.860 But very rarely, but occasionally, yeah, people will get up and leave, or they'll shout out somebody.

00:56:41.880 But that's kind of rare.

00:56:44.200 Most people are really receptive.

00:56:45.220 Like me, over at the Episcopal Church.

00:56:47.000 Boo! 0.83

00:56:47.640 Boo! 0.83

00:56:48.180 No, I didn't.

00:56:48.660 Yeah, once in a while, occasionally.

00:56:51.040 I try to do it subtly.

00:56:52.200 Not much.

00:56:53.200 Not much.

00:56:53.720 People are pretty good, and they're pretty receptive.

00:56:56.200 Is it true that we're shooting for seven-minute homilies now?

00:56:59.080 I read, it might have been my friend, Cardinal Dolan, in New York, but I read something about

00:57:04.460 one of our favorite cardinals saying we should be shooting for around seven to eight minutes

00:57:08.700 on the homily, because we start to lose them after that.

00:57:11.860 The Pope has said the homily should be short.

00:57:14.140 My own feeling, honestly, is, like, 12 or 13 minutes is about right.

00:57:18.420 So I preach for the internet, you know, every week.

00:57:21.780 And we set the clock, I think, for, like, 14 minutes.

00:57:25.060 But you're a natural orator.

00:57:26.500 I mean, not everybody, forgive me, is as talented as you are in communicating.

00:57:32.180 I appreciate that.

00:57:33.020 But I think, too, that we've got to give ourselves a chance to say something.

00:57:36.200 My fear is that, okay, here's the one chance we have to really reach people with the gospel,

00:57:41.620 and I'm going to give them, like, you know, three minutes and a joke.

00:57:44.620 So that bugs me.

00:57:46.160 I mean, we have to be able to do something substantive enough to feed them.

00:57:50.640 I agree with you.

00:57:51.480 In fact, just last week, a guy took me aside and said, Bishop, you've got to train these

00:57:57.040 guys how to preach.

00:57:58.480 You know, you know how to do it, but you've got to train them.

00:58:01.820 And I said to him, which I felt for a long time, it's one of the hardest things in the

00:58:06.800 world to teach, I think, preaching, because it involves so many different types of gifts,

00:58:14.400 you know, biblical interpretation of knowing the culture, understanding psychology.

00:58:19.320 And then all of the rhetorical gifts.

00:58:24.680 So it's a very tricky, difficult thing to preach, I think.

00:58:29.620 Well, you're a natural, and you found the right calling.

00:58:33.000 How did you decide to enter the priesthood?

00:58:36.260 Were you always very religious being, you know, raised as a kid?

00:58:40.040 No, not particularly.

00:58:41.440 My parents were, you know, good, devout Catholics, took us to Mass every Sunday.

00:58:45.940 Not ostentatious Catholics. 1.00

00:58:49.100 My father never liked, he would use that phrase, you know, wear your religion on your 1.00

00:58:53.240 sleeve.

00:58:53.580 He never liked people that did that.

00:58:55.520 When I was a little kid, I wanted to be a baseball player.

00:58:58.360 So most of my young years, I read a lot, but it was all sports books.

00:59:03.180 It was football, basketball, and baseball books, especially.

00:59:06.780 I wanted to be shortstop for the Cubs when I was like 10, 11, 12.

00:59:11.320 The turning point for me, I've told this story a number of times, but when I was 14, the same

00:59:18.460 year I discovered Bob Dylan, a young Dominican friar at my high school, taught us one of Thomas

00:59:25.440 Aquinas' famous arguments for God's existence.

00:59:28.380 And it just had a massive impact on me.

00:59:32.040 I don't know why to this day.

00:59:33.640 I wasn't particularly religious.

00:59:35.840 I didn't disbelieve in God.

00:59:37.720 I was going to mass with my parents on Sunday, but I wasn't interested in religion that much.

00:59:43.100 But for some reason, I think it was a grace, actually, but it just got very deep into me

00:59:48.800 and started me on a path that I've never really left.

00:59:52.760 I'm on it right now talking to you.

00:59:56.100 So that's what started the process.

00:59:58.580 But then, you know, even like in my high school years, that was more of an intellectual interest.

01:00:03.180 It wasn't necessarily like what I want to do with my life.

01:00:05.660 That happened in college.

01:00:07.880 I was at Notre Dame for a year.

01:00:09.880 And while I was there as a freshman, the idea of becoming a priest began to sink into me like,

01:00:16.640 OK, maybe I should really make this my life, you know.

01:00:19.980 And then it went on from there.

01:00:22.220 But no, it wasn't like written into my life story from day one.

01:00:27.820 But the Aquinas thing had a lot to do with it.

01:00:30.020 OK, so here we are.

01:00:34.140 This is we end where we began going into this weekend.

01:00:39.780 Other Christians out there, Catholics and people of faith in general who might be feeling anything

01:00:45.660 akin to what I have been feeling, maybe somewhat questioning, somewhat disaffected.

01:00:52.660 To me, this is an opportunity now.

01:00:54.700 You've inspired me to see this as an hour, like it feels like the last thing one should

01:01:00.200 do when feeling these feelings is to disconnect, right?

01:01:04.240 So I think this is an opportunity.

01:01:06.000 But what's your advice?

01:01:09.100 My advice to Catholics who have wandered away from the faith is come back this Easter. 1.00

01:01:17.720 Give it a chance.

01:01:18.940 Feel the prompting of grace in your heart and come back.

01:01:24.500 I would suggest that deep down, you still have this connection.

01:01:30.360 Deep down, you still want what you perhaps had as a kid in church.

01:01:36.020 Go back.

01:01:37.100 Take advantage of this moment in the year and give the church and give the spiritual life,

01:01:43.680 give the grace of God a chance to work on you.

01:01:46.060 So maybe you take these words of mine as God maybe using a secondary cause to get His grace

01:01:53.760 into your heart.

01:01:56.380 Bishop Barron, thank you so much.

01:01:58.040 Thank you so much for being here.

01:01:59.300 We appreciate it.

01:01:59.900 Please come back.

01:02:00.600 My pleasure.

01:02:01.560 I'd love to.

01:02:02.380 God bless you.

01:02:03.100 All the best.

01:02:04.060 Thanks to all of you for joining me today and all week.

01:02:06.440 I hope you have a great Easter with your family or just weekend if you don't celebrate

01:02:10.740 Easter.

01:02:11.460 We appreciate all of you each and every day and are praying for all of you.

01:02:15.600 Talk to you Monday.

01:02:18.980 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. 0.94

01:02:20.860 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - March 29, 2024

Young People Turning From Faith, the New Religion of ＂Woke,＂ and an Easter Message, with Bishop Robert Barron ｜ Ep. 753

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript