The Michael Knowles Show - March 02, 2024


Bill Maher & Chris Distefano Jesus DEBATE


Episode Stats


Length

21 minutes

Words per minute

181.75081

Word count

3,924

Sentence count

409

Harmful content

Hate speech

5

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Bill Maher and Chris DiStefano debate the nature of our Lord Jesus Christ, and whether or not he ever existed. Guest: Chris Di Stefano, host of HBO's Veep and host of the show Veep.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
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00:00:30.720 Who cares if Jesus lived?
00:00:32.380 It's whether he's then died and was reborn
00:00:35.760 and is, you know, up in heaven with his father who's really him.
00:00:39.260 Factual evidence that he existed is kind of overwhelming.
00:00:43.140 The factual evidence that he existed has always been underwhelming.
00:00:46.560 If I told you factual evidence about Alexander the Great,
00:00:50.300 you would believe me.
00:00:51.560 I can't go there with you.
00:00:53.660 It's just, you know, it's silly.
00:00:57.040 My producers tell me that Bill Maher and Chris DiStefano
00:01:03.400 have just had a major debate on the nature of our Lord Jesus Christ.
00:01:10.280 This is from the Club Random podcast.
00:01:12.500 Not usually the place you turn to for theology,
00:01:16.560 but maybe we found it.
00:01:17.320 So, Mr. Maher, Mr. DiStefano, take it away.
00:01:20.620 I believe in Jesus, by the way.
00:01:21.820 We'll talk about that.
00:01:22.800 Oh.
00:01:23.520 I'm reading The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel.
00:01:25.640 It's convincing evidence.
00:01:26.720 What do you think?
00:01:27.160 I throw people out of the club here?
00:01:29.360 We believe in whatever you want.
00:01:30.960 I didn't.
00:01:31.780 I went to Catholic school my whole life,
00:01:33.140 but after reading this book, The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel,
00:01:36.160 the factual evidence that he existed is kind of overwhelming.
00:01:40.480 I'd like to see that because the factual evidence that he existed
00:01:43.900 has always been underwhelming.
00:01:45.540 Well, I'll put a pause here.
00:01:46.520 So, they're not just arguing over the nature of Christ.
00:01:50.980 They're arguing over his existence?
00:01:53.700 Seriously?
00:01:56.140 That is unfortunate because I think the evidence for his divinity is quite clear.
00:02:04.660 But I didn't think anyone really argued, seriously, that Jesus never existed.
00:02:14.020 He's attested to everywhere.
00:02:18.140 I mean, you have histories written of him within living memory, many of them,
00:02:22.840 from Christian and non-Christian sources.
00:02:24.900 The historical events laid out in the New Testament are well attested to.
00:02:31.960 The people referenced are well attested to,
00:02:36.600 including, obviously, non-Christian, Roman, and Jewish people.
00:02:41.580 It's just so, I don't even know how to engage with that.
00:02:44.760 Okay, keep going.
00:02:45.600 In fact, it's already...
00:02:46.300 We're in The Case for Christ.
00:02:47.860 Give it a shot by Lee Strobel.
00:02:49.680 This is based on what?
00:02:51.140 Archaeological finds?
00:02:52.440 Archaeological finds.
00:02:53.640 No ones.
00:02:54.240 Theological finds.
00:02:55.740 Ivy League.
00:02:56.200 What are theological finds?
00:02:57.940 Bill, ready for this?
00:02:59.300 Yeah.
00:03:00.120 If I told you, okay, if I told you factual evidence about Alexander the Great,
00:03:07.220 you would believe me.
00:03:08.000 Okay, but even still, it's a silly point because who cares if Jesus lived?
00:03:13.280 It's whether he's then died and was reborn and is, you know,
00:03:17.800 up in heaven with his father who's really him.
00:03:20.200 Okay.
00:03:20.380 That's the part where the rubber...
00:03:21.660 Put a pause there.
00:03:21.980 Okay, so I guess Bill Maher is conceding the point, basically.
00:03:25.260 Or he is at least pointing out, well, yeah, it doesn't matter if there's a guy named Jesus,
00:03:28.320 just a random guy named Jesus.
00:03:29.760 That's not...
00:03:30.340 The question is, is he who he says he is?
00:03:32.920 So I think wisely moves off of this very silly argument he's making that the man never lived.
00:03:40.260 And we've got pretty irrefutable evidence that the man lived.
00:03:43.920 So, okay, he moves on and he says, well, is Jesus the Christ?
00:03:48.140 You know, is he the son of God?
00:03:49.920 Keep going.
00:03:50.340 That's the part where the rubber meets the road.
00:03:52.940 Maybe he existed.
00:03:53.860 I agree.
00:03:54.300 That's absolutely possible.
00:03:55.660 He may have existed.
00:03:56.660 But according to Case for Christ, independent sources who didn't know each other,
00:04:01.700 who wrote about him within 20 years of his death,
00:04:05.260 talked about these miracles happening as in real time.
00:04:10.540 Okay, well, again...
00:04:12.540 And Alexander the Great's biographer is the earliest one,
00:04:15.560 was like 100 years after he died.
00:04:17.560 Chris, I'm going to have to burst your bubble now,
00:04:21.560 because here I have to spit a couple of facts at you that are kind of under...
00:04:25.620 Spit my mouth.
00:04:25.640 Okay.
00:04:25.900 It's Hollywood.
00:04:26.440 There's only two sources in the Bible.
00:04:28.480 There's the four Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
00:04:31.780 Put a pause here.
00:04:33.080 Like, he goes, there's only two sources in the Bible.
00:04:35.580 There's the four Gospels.
00:04:36.660 Well, hold on.
00:04:37.120 Wait.
00:04:37.260 Is it...
00:04:39.060 I think to the liberals and the atheists, sometimes one plus one equals four.
00:04:43.320 I don't know.
00:04:44.040 So you got...
00:04:44.480 Okay.
00:04:45.040 So the two he just named are Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
00:04:47.900 Keep going.
00:04:48.640 There's also another guy, Joseph Fitts, who wasn't accepted, but read the Case for Christ.
00:04:51.820 Not in the Bible.
00:04:52.840 Okay.
00:04:53.220 But there's also...
00:04:54.120 But the Bible is itself an anthology.
00:04:56.660 They found some few decades ago the Dead Sea Scroll.
00:05:00.840 Hold on.
00:05:01.040 Put a pause here.
00:05:01.640 So hold on.
00:05:02.260 Is Bill Maher excluding St. Paul?
00:05:06.260 He's counting the Gospels, but he's excluding St. Paul.
00:05:09.000 He's excluding James.
00:05:10.320 He's excluding Peter.
00:05:11.640 He's excluding...
00:05:13.160 He seems to be excluding a lot of the New Testament.
00:05:15.800 To say nothing, obviously, of the Old Testament.
00:05:17.920 Keep going.
00:05:18.220 They found some few decades ago the Dead Sea Scrolls.
00:05:22.540 Right.
00:05:22.860 Which were other books that were just basically edited out.
00:05:25.800 So right away, we know a person decided what constituted the Bible, and just some stuff wound up on the cutting room floor.
00:05:33.440 So we know, we do know who established the canon of the Bible, but it wasn't a person.
00:05:38.440 This isn't like a secret.
00:05:40.480 You know, this isn't like you have your opinion, and I have my opinion, and who knows?
00:05:44.920 We know of the church councils, and we know that the church in council codified the canon of the Bible, and we know the books that were included.
00:05:55.280 We know the books that were excluded, and we actually know why the books that were excluded were excluded.
00:05:58.460 And we can date to a pretty near and narrow margin of time when those books were written.
00:06:05.260 And by the way, if you've ever read some of the books that were excluded from the canon of the Bible, the conclusion you will have is not that the church father—well, not one person.
00:06:13.320 I don't know what Bill Maher is talking about, but not that the church fathers and the bishops were trying to pull one over on us, but you will recognize their wisdom.
00:06:21.600 Because the books that were excluded, by and large, were totally kooky and came much later and were illogical and not credible.
00:06:29.580 Next one.
00:06:30.220 Keep going.
00:06:30.780 And just some stuff wound up on the cutting room floor.
00:06:33.520 I get it. Council of Nicaea. I get it.
00:06:36.000 Council of Nicaea, yes.
00:06:38.080 325 AD.
00:06:38.940 Yes.
00:06:39.100 That's when they decided the Christian religion.
00:06:41.120 I agree with you.
00:06:41.860 Right.
00:06:42.400 I'm with you on that.
00:06:43.420 I remember that.
00:06:44.260 So there are a lot of councils that decided a lot of questions.
00:06:47.080 You know, a driving reason for a council is to establish the truth of a matter that is in dispute.
00:06:56.000 So there are councils that debate and come to conclusions on the nature of Christ.
00:07:01.300 Councils that come to conclusions on the nature of the canon.
00:07:05.520 Questions that come to conclusions on, anyway, all sorts of things.
00:07:10.000 But it's, yeah, it's not just that one, it's not just that the Council of Nicaea, you know, creates Christianity or something.
00:07:15.400 I don't think that's quite what he meant to say.
00:07:16.700 But if he did say it, that's not, that isn't accurate.
00:07:20.260 I'm with you on that.
00:07:21.260 I remember that.
00:07:21.920 But I'm telling you, read this book.
00:07:23.240 That's Emperor Constantine.
00:07:24.940 Shout out Constantine.
00:07:26.000 Turkey, all that.
00:07:27.020 Well, the first one.
00:07:28.720 Constantinople.
00:07:29.120 Well, yes, the first one to change the Roman Empire to a Christian Empire. 0.96
00:07:34.900 They decided all the...
00:07:36.020 So that's not true either, actually.
00:07:38.280 The Edict of Milan allows for toleration of Christianity, but it doesn't formally make Christianity the religion of the Roman Empire.
00:07:49.100 And Constantine's great, though.
00:07:51.580 Love Constantine.
00:07:52.240 Keep going.
00:07:52.720 To a Christian Empire. 0.99
00:07:53.860 They decided all the holidays.
00:07:55.400 Took three centuries.
00:07:56.480 I get it.
00:07:57.160 Okay.
00:07:57.360 Listen, Bill, I'm with you on that.
00:07:58.800 But here's the important point.
00:08:00.100 Let's do it.
00:08:00.720 There's only these five sources.
00:08:02.720 A little bit more to kill, and that's it.
00:08:04.300 Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
00:08:05.740 I'm wrecked right now.
00:08:06.760 Put a pause there.
00:08:07.580 Again, there are more, because there are the epistles, and there's St. Paul, obviously, who wrote so much of the New Testament.
00:08:13.380 Keep going.
00:08:14.100 Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
00:08:15.740 Good boys.
00:08:17.260 Not contemporaries of Jesus.
00:08:19.080 Not even close.
00:08:21.060 Put a pause there.
00:08:24.340 Do you know who Matthew is?
00:08:25.560 Part of the historical critical school that was so influential in the 19th century was to say that none of the people who supposedly wrote the gospels and the epistles are actually the people.
00:08:38.920 Because sometimes you do get pseudonymous writing, you know, writing where they purport to be one person, but they're not really that person.
00:08:45.780 But it seems reasonable to me to attribute the gospels to the people who purportedly wrote them.
00:08:55.420 And even if we're not talking about people who had a particularly close terrestrial relationship with our Lord, let's say in the case of Luke, it's not like we just, these guys fell out of the sky.
00:09:08.960 Like, we can trace their lineage.
00:09:10.400 We know who they spoke with.
00:09:12.920 We know the lineage.
00:09:14.400 Even of the, forget about the New Testament for a moment.
00:09:18.320 Just even the early church fathers, the, you know, the saints who were disciples of this guy, who were disciples of that guy, who go back.
00:09:28.020 You know, we can trace these things.
00:09:29.540 I mean, this is, this is one of the amazing things about the Catholic church, which to me is a sign of its divine institution, is that you can trace the bishops like all the way back.
00:09:40.580 They go right back to Peter and you can trace them with considerable clarity.
00:09:45.380 Keep going.
00:09:46.020 So they lived from 70 to 110 years after him.
00:09:51.940 I understand.
00:09:52.340 No, no, no.
00:09:52.820 From 40 to 70 years after him.
00:09:54.480 But they got their information from Joseph's.
00:09:56.580 Sure, Bill Maher is saying that because, you know, we have evidence that the gospels were written 30, morally more like 30 to 80 years after the resurrection, that these people lived 30 to 80 or 100 years after the resurrection.
00:10:17.840 That isn't true.
00:10:19.600 It would have been written and presumably these people weren't just born and then started writing.
00:10:23.180 So, and frankly, it could have been written even earlier.
00:10:29.060 I mean, you see, like in the case, we're talking about the spread of Christianity here in the empire.
00:10:32.820 You see Christianity arrive in Armenia seven years after the crucifixion and two apostles die there, which is how Armenia came to be converted to a Christian country even before the Edict of Constantine already referenced.
00:10:46.840 Okay, keep going.
00:10:47.600 They got their information from Josephus who lived about 10 years after Jesus.
00:10:51.280 So, already we're into a game of telephone.
00:10:53.380 Put a pause there.
00:10:53.860 Already into a game of telephone.
00:10:55.020 What are you talking about, man?
00:10:56.100 So, I love that DeStefano here is referencing the historian Josephus, who obviously is not a Christian source or he's not in the Bible.
00:11:03.920 This is a game of telephone.
00:11:05.160 I don't know.
00:11:05.420 If I wrote a book today about the election of Barack Obama in 2008, do you think I would have some credibility on that?
00:11:14.560 Do you think my memory would be clear enough?
00:11:16.440 Because that was 16 years ago.
00:11:20.420 Bill Maher is saying, well, 10 years after the event, you know, it's just a total game of telephone.
00:11:24.380 Who could possibly remember?
00:11:25.420 Are you kidding me, dude?
00:11:28.580 We're talking about 2014.
00:11:31.720 It's not—10 years is not that long.
00:11:35.200 Keep going.
00:11:36.000 Okay.
00:11:36.360 Bill, yes, but—
00:11:37.500 I want to make you let me point, but let me just quickly.
00:11:40.640 The game of telephone, yes, I agree with you that point, but the game of telephone in Jesus' times, according to Lee Strobel in the case of Christ, was the simple fact of we're playing the game of telephone.
00:11:51.620 There's 10 people here.
00:11:52.760 The game of telephone, as we know it today, is you say something in my ear, and then it goes around 10 times, and by the time it gets to you, it's something radically different.
00:12:00.140 This game of telephone, this ancient game of telephone was, but you tell it to me, then the third guy confirms what you said before it goes to the fourth guy.
00:12:09.620 So there's a level of checking, of checks and balances.
00:12:13.440 Chris, Chris, you're working too hard.
00:12:15.540 If you want to believe this, believe it.
00:12:18.180 You don't have to convince me or—
00:12:20.220 Put a pause here.
00:12:21.200 This is a total surrender from Bill Maher.
00:12:23.460 He's got really nothing to say here.
00:12:25.100 So he says, hey—he plays this apathetic character.
00:12:28.900 Bro, what do I care?
00:12:30.900 What are you trying to persuade me of something for?
00:12:32.740 I don't know, man, because we're having a conversation.
00:12:35.780 I don't know, because we're on a talk show.
00:12:39.200 Don't you usually try to persuade people of things, and we come to conclusions?
00:12:43.460 But Bill Maher is totally lost at this point.
00:12:45.720 He's got nothing, and he realizes that DiStefano is sharper on this issue and has more information on this issue than he does.
00:12:51.000 So then he plays this apathetic game.
00:12:52.420 Bro, why do you care so much?
00:12:53.800 What do you—I don't know, Bill, because we're having a conversation, and you seem to disagree with me.
00:12:58.820 And so we're trying to figure out whose view is right, also because you're a human being, and I care for you, and I think it would be better for you to believe true things rather than false things.
00:13:10.460 Okay, man, whatever.
00:13:11.980 I don't know why this guy's trying to talk on a talk show.
00:13:13.760 Keep going.
00:13:14.280 You don't have to convince me or—
00:13:16.320 I'm just convinced you of case for Christ.
00:13:18.340 Or construct this scaffolding to which you hang this belief.
00:13:22.420 Just believe it.
00:13:23.300 It's all good.
00:13:24.240 Okay.
00:13:25.200 But it's—
00:13:25.520 Don't come to me, and when you die at St. Peter's, I'm not getting you in.
00:13:27.920 But, you know, I can't go there with you.
00:13:32.300 It's just, you know, it's silly.
00:13:35.040 Well, I'm just saying it's nice, the idea, to believe in something.
00:13:38.060 I'm just trying.
00:13:39.140 Trying it on for size.
00:13:40.040 Here's also what's very interesting, and then I'll leave this subject.
00:13:44.400 Excuse me.
00:13:45.920 I think I've bored the audience with this before, but—
00:13:48.020 What do you think?
00:13:48.420 Barbara in Milwaukee gives a—they turned this off when they found out I wasn't Ellen.
00:13:53.480 Yeah, like that's the kind of audience we have.
00:13:56.600 Your audience is great.
00:13:57.640 Okay, so—
00:13:58.380 I think they'll—you think they'll like me?
00:13:59.800 St. Paul.
00:14:01.020 Good guy, St. Paul.
00:14:02.020 A.K.A. Saul.
00:14:02.800 Hold on.
00:14:03.160 Pause now.
00:14:04.060 So he finally remembers St. Paul.
00:14:06.300 He forgets the guy who writes most of the New Testament.
00:14:09.140 There's only four sources in the New Testament.
00:14:11.020 Only two sources, and there are four evangelists.
00:14:13.460 And he forgets—but now he remembers St. Paul.
00:14:15.140 Okay, keep going.
00:14:16.160 Good guy, St. Paul.
00:14:17.140 A.K.A. Saul.
00:14:18.420 And the capital of Minnesota.
00:14:19.640 Is the other source of the Bible.
00:14:23.260 Yes.
00:14:23.520 There's Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John.
00:14:25.280 I said the two names out of order because that's the order in the Bible.
00:14:28.600 The first gospel, Mark, is 70 A.D.
00:14:33.200 Jesus dies in 33.
00:14:35.060 So that's 40 years almost after he died.
00:14:38.080 Okay?
00:14:38.320 So not contemporaries.
00:14:40.220 Paul comes before the gospel writers.
00:14:43.420 He's writing around the year 50, in the 50s.
00:14:46.760 Okay.
00:14:47.100 So he's much closer to Jesus' time.
00:14:50.060 So you'd think he would know more about Jesus than the people who came later.
00:14:53.640 Well, hold on, hold on.
00:14:55.240 Also, I mean, St. Paul meets Christ after the crucifixion and the resurrection.
00:15:03.380 Famously, on the road to Damascus, knocked off a horse.
00:15:07.020 So he is an apostle, you know, the last of the apostles.
00:15:12.020 But he's not an apostle in the same way that the other apostles were, who actually spent time with him.
00:15:16.600 Or the disciples of those apostles who had firsthand accounts of our Lord's sojourn on earth before the crucifixion and the resurrection.
00:15:25.380 Keep going.
00:15:26.020 But actually, St. Paul knows almost nothing about Jesus.
00:15:29.820 He barely conceives of him as something that, as a person who lived on earth.
00:15:34.020 There's no details about his life like they are in the gospels.
00:15:37.580 So the people who came...
00:15:38.920 Right, because he met him after the crucifixion and the resurrection.
00:15:42.420 It's a totally different, not a totally different experience, because it's one God and one Christ.
00:15:48.380 But it's a rather different experience from the experience of the apostles.
00:15:53.300 And so you might even take Bill's logic here and apply it to the gospels.
00:15:56.660 Why do we have four different gospels?
00:15:58.280 These are people who all spent roughly the same amount of time with the man.
00:16:01.700 And so why do we get four different perspectives?
00:16:04.100 It tells us something about the person of Christ.
00:16:06.780 And it tells us something about us and our relationship to God.
00:16:09.620 So then why does Christ knock Saul off the horse on the road to Damascus?
00:16:14.640 We get another perspective there.
00:16:16.060 We get now, first of all, an apostle to the Gentiles.
00:16:18.820 But we also get a new perspective of our Lord after he's taken on his glorified body, after the resurrection.
00:16:24.760 And a very valuable perspective.
00:16:27.740 Obviously, something rather important to the whole New Testament.
00:16:31.740 But if he's saying, well, why do we have these different perspectives?
00:16:34.120 Well, then rewind and ask yourself, why do we have three synoptic gospels and the gospel of John?
00:16:38.460 Why do we have four gospels, period?
00:16:42.000 Is it possible that those different perspectives add something to our understanding of our Lord?
00:16:47.440 Even the way Bill talks, he says he conceived of Christ.
00:16:50.880 Well, okay, that's assuming that an atheist view.
00:16:55.340 That's assuming the non-Christian view.
00:16:56.920 Because the way I would say it is Christ knocked Saul off a horse.
00:17:00.860 That it wasn't Paul just having a daydream of what Jesus might have been like.
00:17:07.860 But that our Lord is a real person who really appeared to him.
00:17:10.620 That he really was resurrected on the third day and then sojourned on earth for another 40 days.
00:17:16.440 And then ascended into heaven in his seat with the right hand of God, the Father Almighty.
00:17:22.340 The conception thing here.
00:17:24.100 Okay, if you're beginning with the premise that Christianity is bogus.
00:17:27.160 I guess I can see how Bill could arrive at some of these views.
00:17:30.800 But if you're not, if you keep even a slightly open mind that it might be real,
00:17:34.620 I think it probably explains more the actions of St. Paul and the other apostles.
00:17:40.400 Keep going.
00:17:40.880 So the people who came later know more than the person who wrote earlier.
00:17:44.940 Just some food for thought.
00:17:46.460 But, okay, I understand.
00:17:50.220 But he does acknowledge at some point, right?
00:17:54.560 Paul, a.k.a. Saul, knows that Jesus existed, right?
00:17:59.200 He talks about him.
00:18:00.180 He talks about, I'm saying he conceives him as a Godhead.
00:18:03.540 He doesn't have this, it's not the narrative that's in the Gospels of
00:18:08.040 Jesus went around and he did miracles and he did stuff and everybody loved him.
00:18:13.660 Okay, but isn't it?
00:18:13.960 Pause here.
00:18:15.100 Yeah, right.
00:18:15.580 It's a different narrative from a man's different experience and point of view.
00:18:19.100 But even among the Gospels, you have the three synoptics are rather different
00:18:23.300 from the Gospel according to St. John.
00:18:26.500 I mean, the Gospel according to St. John opens up,
00:18:28.600 in the beginning was the word, the logos, and the logos was with God and the logos was God.
00:18:33.880 That's a rather different perspective than beginning just with the human genealogy of Christ.
00:18:38.800 Even the different genealogies tell you something, give you a new perspective on the man.
00:18:44.380 But Christ has two natures in a hypostatic union.
00:18:47.360 He's fully God and fully man.
00:18:50.040 You say, well, you know, the Gospel of John opens up in this really heady way,
00:18:53.720 just speaking of God and the nature of the relation of God to the divine logic of the universe.
00:18:58.840 And yeah, right.
00:18:59.860 Of course, man.
00:19:01.480 Yeah.
00:19:01.640 And the epistles of Paul have a, add another layer of perspective to that as well.
00:19:07.520 Yeah, of course.
00:19:08.440 Yeah, it's not, the books of the New Testament are not Xerox copies of each other.
00:19:13.760 Keep going.
00:19:14.180 It's tough and everybody loved him and he gets quoted a lot.
00:19:17.600 He makes speeches.
00:19:18.520 Blessed are the meek. 1.00
00:19:19.900 You know, he has adventures.
00:19:21.300 He goes into the desert.
00:19:22.560 It's a whole thing.
00:19:23.880 But what about-
00:19:24.400 And then at the end, it's a whole drama with, you know-
00:19:28.120 Right, yeah, but it was there.
00:19:29.180 Right, isn't that an argument that it's real?
00:19:31.080 I mean, Bill's argument here is these people just wanted to write a story.
00:19:34.280 And an argument against it is that their stories are different.
00:19:40.540 But this would be like Chesterton's argument for the reality of, even Tim Keller made this argument,
00:19:48.000 the late Protestant preacher, that it reads like journalism.
00:19:52.880 You know, the gospels read like journalism.
00:19:54.380 And so they differ in certain little tiny details because of different perspectives.
00:19:58.920 But St. Paul isn't setting out to write a great work of fiction.
00:20:01.360 He's writing of his experience.
00:20:02.420 And his experience was different than the experience of the apostles, the other apostles.
00:20:06.120 Keep going.
00:20:06.620 Paul doesn't know any of this.
00:20:08.640 All the stuff that the gospel writers obsess about.
00:20:11.360 Paul certainly knows about the crucifixion and writes about it.
00:20:14.360 Keep going.
00:20:14.940 It's a little strange.
00:20:16.900 But maybe, but Paul, it's okay for Paul to be somebody who maybe,
00:20:22.160 there was a lot of people who didn't like Jesus.
00:20:24.040 You know what's okay?
00:20:24.660 And that's okay.
00:20:25.280 What's okay is that some people believe and other people don't.
00:20:28.440 That's what's okay.
00:20:29.720 It's like, that's you.
00:20:31.840 Yeah.
00:20:32.580 I'm not trying to put it on you.
00:20:33.900 I'm just saying what I believe in.
00:20:34.720 I know.
00:20:35.380 I know.
00:20:36.100 I'm wearing a corduroy shirt.
00:20:37.200 My mother got me for Christmas and I feel confident.
00:20:40.180 Is that really?
00:20:41.140 Your mother got you that?
00:20:42.520 You ever been to Japan?
00:20:43.840 No.
00:20:44.780 Should we go?
00:20:45.700 No.
00:20:46.220 All right.
00:20:46.560 Enough about Japan. 0.65
00:20:47.500 I don't care about Japan. 0.84
00:20:49.180 I, you know, I like Bill Maher.
00:20:51.600 I like, there's something about him I like.
00:20:53.280 He's just so wrong.
00:20:54.540 And when he senses that he's starting to lose, he just kind of falls into apathy.
00:21:00.240 He, it's funny because he seems to be, he seems to consider his sparring partner as the one who's close-minded and stubborn and not going to change his mind.
00:21:11.120 But it's really Bill in the end who comes out and he just gives up.
00:21:15.360 And he says, okay, well, enough of your evidence, enough of your arguments.
00:21:18.960 I'm, I'm just not going to change my mind.
00:21:20.640 You believe what you believe.
00:21:21.620 I believe what I believe.
00:21:22.800 It's okay.
00:21:23.440 Who cares?
00:21:24.080 What do you care?
00:21:26.160 He gives up on that.
00:21:27.340 I mean, that's obstinacy.
00:21:28.380 You can't get over it.
00:21:29.060 You can only lead a horse to water and then see if, you know, God himself knocks you off the horse.