The Michael Knowles Show

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00:00:30.720 A quick note before the episode begins.

00:00:32.740 This conversation involves graphic discussions related to abortion and the abortion industry.

00:00:37.600 Please consider turning off the episode if children are present and continue listening with caution.

00:00:44.380 Well, abortion is sold as a concept, I think, to the American public.

00:00:52.820 And it's an abstract concept.

00:00:55.560 I think if the public could see an abortion through my eyes and see the reality of it,

00:01:05.400 the polling that you would see would dramatically increase toward opposition to abortion.

00:01:15.600 I can't imagine people seeing an abortion, seeing what happens during an abortion,

00:01:26.480 not being appalled, and that the statistics that you read about supporting abortion would be vastly different if people could see the reality.

00:01:41.880 And it became more than just an abstract concept to them.

00:01:46.440 Dr. Steve Hammond didn't just support abortion.

00:01:51.560 He performed abortions.

00:01:53.460 And he didn't just perform abortions.

00:01:56.240 He was good at performing abortions.

00:01:59.020 Steve aborted babies as his day job and as a side hustle for extra money on nights and weekends.

00:02:06.440 He took pride in his skill and efficiency.

00:02:08.840 Until one day, after having taken the lives of some 700 babies,

00:02:14.920 when Steve stopped an abortion midway through because of an unmistakable feeling.

00:02:20.680 Not just an emotional feeling, but a physical feeling.

00:02:24.520 The baby kicked his instruments.

00:02:38.840 Right now, I would strongly recommend you go to hallo.com slash choose life.

00:02:54.240 Because today's world is a scary one.

00:02:57.360 Too many people don't seem to care about the truth.

00:03:00.280 And I would suggest that that's all rooted in people becoming less or really just anti-religious.

00:03:07.080 That's why it's more important than ever to keep our relationship with God strong.

00:03:12.660 Hallow is the number one Christian prayer app in the United States.

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00:03:19.660 It is the perfect resource to deepen your relationship with God

00:03:22.960 and find peace through audio-guided prayer and meditation.

00:03:26.780 Several of Hallow's meditations encourage you to choose life

00:03:29.580 and to pray for others to choose life,

00:03:31.640 such as their Litany for Life with Lila Rose.

00:03:34.400 Hallow is free to download.

00:03:36.020 It will help you find peace and calm throughout your day.

00:03:39.560 So do it. Do it right now.

00:03:41.120 Download the app for free at hallo.com slash choose life.

00:03:46.200 That is hallo.com slash choose life.

00:03:50.700 And now, Dr. Hammond.

00:03:56.800 My name is Steve Hammond, and I'm a medical doctor.

00:04:01.000 I've been in practice for 43 years.

00:04:04.720 My specialty is obstetrics and gynecology.

00:04:08.200 During my career, I've delivered over 4,000 babies.

00:04:12.280 And early in my career, I was an abortionist.

00:04:16.180 I performed over 700 abortions.

00:04:21.140 And every story has a beginning.

00:04:24.100 I was raised in a Christian family.

00:04:27.620 I was in the middle of five children.

00:04:29.040 And we were really spread out.

00:04:32.380 I always, even in my earliest time, as a five-year-old,

00:04:37.020 I can remember wanting to be a physician.

00:04:38.680 And I don't know where that came from, actually.

00:04:40.920 Nobody in my family was involved in medicine at all.

00:04:44.160 My dad was assistant manager of a cotton mill.

00:04:47.380 And I could tell you that my mother was the spiritual leader of our house.

00:04:52.480 If you ever looked at Father Knows Best reruns or whatever, that's kind of the way our family was.

00:04:59.020 My mother was the spiritual leader of our house and introduced me to Jesus as a four-year-old.

00:05:04.500 And trying to teach a four-year-old about sin, salvation, and need for us, the Savior, is really a difficult task.

00:05:13.420 Because I can tell you, as a four-year-old, I was just interested in playing in the dirt.

00:05:18.880 That was really a concept way beyond my ability to understand.

00:05:24.640 But she told me, I'll give you an example.

00:05:27.900 She said, you know, we've got a big yard, Steve, and you like to play in the dirt.

00:05:31.940 You can play in the yard, but don't leave the yard without your dad or me with you, because it's dangerous.

00:05:40.060 Well, probably about a week or two after that, I followed my older brother to visit some friends.

00:05:47.560 And when I got back home, there was my mother waiting for me with a switch.

00:05:51.900 And she taught me the first two multi-syllable words that I can remember.

00:05:56.420 You deliberately disobeyed me.

00:05:58.140 And that really exemplifies, I think, the boundaries that true freedom has.

00:06:06.460 We are free to do so much in life, but there are boundaries to our freedom.

00:06:12.480 And as Christians, we recognize that.

00:06:16.300 Well, as time goes on, testosterone and peer pressure and the world started changing me, I guess you would say.

00:06:27.460 By the time I got to college in the 60s, it was the sexual revolution.

00:06:36.060 It was a time of challenging authority that we had been raised with.

00:06:41.960 And when you say freedom to someone in the 60s, they would think that freedom comes without boundaries.

00:06:53.060 What they were really looking for was autonomy.

00:06:55.600 Autonomy is a much different thing.

00:06:57.460 Autonomy is a law unto oneself.

00:07:01.500 And you can see how that's really flowed into our culture today.

00:07:05.220 But I bought into this.

00:07:07.800 And part of what that entails is what we call moral relativism.

00:07:13.560 And I can remember one of the things we would always say in those days, well, that might be wrong for you to do, but it's for me to do, excuse me.

00:07:25.180 It might be wrong for me to do, but it's okay if you think it's okay.

00:07:29.380 So that moral relativism started creeping in.

00:07:33.620 And this really laid the foundation for how, when I became a physician later, that I was swayed by the argument that came about.

00:07:46.260 Now, Roe v. Wade came about when I was halfway through medical school.

00:07:50.900 And there was really no 24-7 news in those days.

00:07:56.660 We really were insulated from that.

00:07:59.440 We learned about Roe v. Wade being passed down by the Supreme Court through our professors.

00:08:08.320 And in those days, the professors were, my professors at least, were encouraging us to think about this and that it was important for women's health and for women to be able to choose to have their babies or not.

00:08:30.760 And so it was a concept that I bought into.

00:08:35.160 I think part of that moral relativism flowed from my past into this.

00:08:40.400 But until I became a resident in obstetrics and gynecology, it really didn't impact me that much.

00:08:48.460 I can remember during medical school, some of my fellow students believed that abortion was murder.

00:08:58.120 And I thought, they're just religious fanatics, Jesus freaks.

00:09:02.380 We had all kind of monikers we would put on them.

00:09:06.720 So fast forward, I went into obstetrics and gynecology, mainly in medical school.

00:09:12.680 It was the first hands-on experience I had.

00:09:15.220 And seeing new life being born was fascinating to me.

00:09:19.040 And so I chose to pursue a residency in obstetrics and gynecology.

00:09:23.680 As I mentioned, Roe v. Wade was passed down halfway through medical school.

00:09:29.500 That was in 1973.

00:09:32.220 I got married later that year.

00:09:34.600 And we went to the Medical College of Georgia for my residency.

00:09:38.140 The fourth month of my residency was in Planned Parenthood rotation.

00:09:48.980 And during that Planned Parenthood rotation, that's when I was first introduced to the actual abortion procedure.

00:09:54.160 I could have opted out, but I chose not to.

00:10:01.600 And I witnessed my first abortion.

00:10:05.100 And then hands-on, I started doing them.

00:10:09.760 I actually became good at it.

00:10:11.900 I guess as a young physician, you gravitate towards something that you feel good about.

00:10:18.280 And I did.

00:10:19.580 I became very proficient at it.

00:10:22.460 And it shortly evolved from just doing them on the rotation to because I was good at it.

00:10:28.840 Planned Parenthood actually hired me to do abortions for moonlighting.

00:10:34.760 And so I started doing them.

00:10:37.600 And over the course of the next year and a half, doing abortions at Planned Parenthood on weekends.

00:10:45.180 And then we started traveling to other cities to do them as well.

00:10:49.720 That went on for about a year and a half.

00:10:52.240 And it all came to a halt on a Saturday morning.

00:10:57.420 I remember it so well.

00:11:00.040 I was doing abortions.

00:11:01.620 We would do 20, 25 abortions on a Saturday morning.

00:11:06.760 And the last patient of that day was a little 16-year-old.

00:11:10.940 And usually when we do an abortion, and we were only doing them up to about 13 weeks at that time,

00:11:22.000 there's only a tablespoon, maybe three or four tablespoons of amniotic fluid that come out when we do the procedure.

00:11:30.920 This was different.

00:11:31.920 There was probably a quart, maybe a quart and a half of amniotic fluid that came out as I was doing it.

00:11:39.460 And then there was a lot of blood.

00:11:43.380 And then it happened, the event that changed everything.

00:11:49.000 The baby kicked me.

00:11:50.360 Now, you might think, here I was doing abortions for a year and a half,

00:11:57.460 and I would see the products that I was pulling out of the uterus,

00:12:02.320 the broken limbs, the torsos, the head, all the pieces of those babies.

00:12:10.620 And that didn't really move me.

00:12:13.300 It didn't change my mind.

00:12:14.740 But when I felt the baby kick me, it changed everything.

00:12:20.700 You see, we didn't have real-time ultrasound back in those days.

00:12:23.700 We were flying blindly, you might say.

00:12:28.960 I mean, we could hear the baby's heartbeat with a Doppler ultrasound,

00:12:32.720 but we didn't have real-time ultrasound to actually see the baby in utero.

00:12:37.240 When I was kicked, though, it brought everything to a realization that there was something going on.

00:12:48.000 I was taking a life.

00:12:50.020 And actually, when I examined the patient more closely, she was about five months pregnant.

00:12:55.840 And she had to be transported to the hospital,

00:12:58.880 and that baby had to be dismembered and removed in pieces.

00:13:02.820 Now, that was the last abortion I ever did, but philosophically, I was still pro-choice.

00:13:11.160 I guess you might say I would refer them to someone else to do.

00:13:14.580 I just couldn't do them myself.

00:13:17.560 Well, that transition took place, I guess, if you'd have to fast forward another five years.

00:13:25.220 I was out of residency in private practice.

00:13:27.600 My wife and I had already had two children, and our third child was born under some unique circumstances.

00:13:36.860 She went into preterm labor at 26 weeks.

00:13:41.320 That was 1982, and babies born at 26 weeks in 1982 had about a 25% chance of survival.

00:13:51.460 We tried everything we could to stop the labor, but it was impossible to do so.

00:13:59.160 And so our third child was born at 26 weeks.

00:14:02.680 He weighed two pounds and three ounces when he was born,

00:14:06.180 and he was in the neonatal intensive care unit for about eight weeks.

00:14:11.720 It was then I think it really dawned on me watching the neonatologist working around the clock

00:14:25.700 to save my son's life, realizing that there were facilities already in our country

00:14:31.420 that were aborting babies of that gestational age, and it was hard for me to reconcile that.

00:14:37.560 And so I think philosophically at that point, I became what you might call pro-life.

00:14:48.120 I realized that abortion was taking a human life, and I couldn't reconcile that.

00:14:55.240 You might say the morality of that really hit home.

00:14:58.400 That was further bolstered about, I guess that was another seven years after that.

00:15:06.500 I went on a retreat and really was reintroduced to the Jesus that my mother had introduced me to

00:15:12.480 when I was four years old.

00:15:15.000 And I became really hungry to read Scripture and find out exactly how Scripture talks to us

00:15:24.180 about God and why He created man, the plan He has for us, how He created us, and about new life.

00:15:35.240 And going back to the first chapter of Genesis, God said,

00:15:40.800 let us create man in our own image.

00:15:43.920 And then in Exodus, actually the next book of the Bible, there's an interesting passage there.

00:15:49.640 They're describing the law of Moses and breaking it down basically to talk about how the legal system would be set up.

00:16:02.840 So if there were damages done, how that would be repaid and so forth.

00:16:06.900 It got into some real minutia.

00:16:09.100 But there was an interesting passage.

00:16:10.700 It's in Exodus 22, verse 21, where two men are fighting and a pregnant woman is a bystander and is accidentally injured.

00:16:23.080 And it says if all goes well, then damages are to be paid.

00:16:27.860 But if there's serious damage, and we can infer from that that something happens to that newborn,

00:16:36.840 then it's an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, and a life for a life.

00:16:41.940 So it looks like, at least in that passage, that we're being introduced to the fact that intrauterine life is actually life.

00:16:50.640 And we go to the first chapter of Jeremiah, and he tells Jeremiah, he said,

00:16:55.080 You know, before you were conceived, I knew you and appointed you a prophet to the nations.

00:17:02.080 So there, you know, the Bible is saying that God knows us even before we're not just born, but before we're conceived.

00:17:10.540 So there are numerous passages in the Bible that really brought to my mind the fact that not only is abortion taking a human life,

00:17:21.620 but there's very good biblical evidence that God breathes into us life at conception.

00:17:34.120 And so if you look at it scientifically and study when life begins,

00:17:40.620 certainly at birth, it's no question about it.

00:17:44.220 But if you trace that back all the way, there's not any logical point along the way that you can say that this transition actually happens

00:17:53.180 unless you get back to conception.

00:17:55.960 And there's a great deal of scientific evidence.

00:18:00.600 I mean, basic biology about the chromosomes that the DNA that's formed in a newborn.

00:18:07.700 We call it a zygote when the sperm and the egg unite that the full complement of chromosomes that are unique to that individual

00:18:18.660 are consummated or begun.

00:18:23.600 And the DNA of that individual is different than any other individual that's ever been on the face of this earth

00:18:31.960 unless it's a situation where they're identical twins.

00:18:35.620 So that unique identity is there from conception.

00:18:42.060 Thank you for sharing that story.

00:18:46.520 I want to jump back to some questions about the earlier part of your story.

00:18:51.960 When you saw your first abortion, not the first one you performed, but when you saw the first abortion,

00:18:59.700 what was going through your mind and what, you know, what were you being, you know,

00:19:07.680 was anyone telling you kind of like what to think or giving you a context for how to deal with kind of processing it?

00:19:12.800 Or what were you thinking about it?

00:19:14.160 When I first was introduced to abortion as a resident, Dr. Bronstein, who was the medical director at Planned Parenthood,

00:19:25.360 actually performed it.

00:19:27.420 And I remember going through the, we call it the products of conception,

00:19:31.740 the pieces of the baby that were removed, the arms and legs, the little arms and legs and the torso, the head, all of that.

00:19:45.900 Really, I was separated from the fact that that was life because we really didn't have real-time ultrasound back then.

00:19:54.200 We weren't able to see the baby in utero like we are now.

00:20:00.880 But at the same time, it was pretty clear what we were looking at.

00:20:05.800 There were pieces of baby, little arms and legs.

00:20:12.200 I think this pregnancy was probably around 10 weeks or so.

00:20:15.820 You can see fingers and toes and all the parts of the baby.

00:20:19.540 And I guess you would say I looked at that as a pathologist would do an autopsy on someone maybe that he had known

00:20:31.680 or that was a member of his community.

00:20:35.380 He separates himself from the fact that that body that's there was up and living and breathing

00:20:42.960 and walking down the street maybe a week before.

00:20:46.060 He doesn't really think about it as a living human being, but as something to be studied and evaluated.

00:20:56.440 And I guess that's how I would have described what I saw in my emotions as I looked at that,

00:21:02.300 was more intrigue and interest in the anatomy.

00:21:11.040 Emotionally, I was really sold out to the fact that abortion was a necessary thing.

00:21:23.640 I've been taught that in medical school, that abortion was finally giving women an ability to end a pregnancy

00:21:35.700 if it wasn't convenient or if they had other reasons.

00:21:42.160 We weren't to question that, but he gave them the freedom to do so.

00:21:47.720 So I disconnected the fact that that was a life.

00:21:52.140 We didn't have real-time ultrasound back then.

00:21:54.720 And so we didn't have the ability that we have now to be able to see the baby moving,

00:22:01.200 the heartbeat in utero that we have today.

00:22:05.180 So all I saw was the products of what was in utero five minutes before alive.

00:22:11.800 But I was not able to draw that context back then.

00:22:15.360 So fast forward to the abortion that the court of amniotic fluid and blood came out.

00:22:30.420 Describe what you're mentally going through in that moment.

00:22:35.940 Is it still that kind of clinical, oh, this is medically different?

00:22:48.140 Or is there a part of you that's like, your heartbeat picks up and you're like, oh no, what's happening?

00:22:53.560 Talk us through that.

00:22:54.920 So that last abortion that I did, as we were performing it,

00:23:04.720 usually there's only a teaspoon or a tablespoon of amniotic fluid.

00:23:08.900 And then the products of conception come through.

00:23:11.060 That's what we call the baby.

00:23:12.680 Products of conception came through the tubing.

00:23:16.000 It was just a lot of amniotic fluid, a lot of blood.

00:23:19.980 And then the baby kicked me.

00:23:21.580 And it was only then when I examined the abdomen and realized that this pregnancy was much further along than I had anticipated.

00:23:39.360 That was the first time I think I ever really connected the fact that what I was doing was taking a human life.

00:23:47.120 We didn't have the real-time ultrasound that you have now.

00:23:50.720 At least it was in its infancy then.

00:23:54.480 So we didn't do ultrasounds before the abortion.

00:23:58.280 And we relied only on our ability to estimate the gestational age.

00:24:03.040 And if the patient was not accurate about their last menstrual period, we sometimes could be off.

00:24:09.060 Or sometimes the patient either didn't know or actually would misrepresent when their last menstrual period was.

00:24:16.260 But in this case, I don't know what happened, but she was much further along than we had anticipated.

00:24:23.800 And the fact that the baby kicked me was the first connection that I had, I think, between what I was doing was taking a life.

00:24:42.060 Because the pregnancies, the pregnancies, the pregnancies, the pregnancies, the abortions I had previously done were much smaller.

00:24:50.740 But she was further along, and that made quite an imprint on me because I knew then that what I was doing was taking a life.

00:25:07.320 It was clear.

00:25:08.320 It was clear.

00:25:09.320 I had a newborn at home at that time, and I knew what a kick was.

00:25:14.140 And when I felt that baby kicked me, it really hit home, I think, with the fact that I was taking a life.

00:25:28.700 And she had to be taken to the hospital and removed, the baby was removed in pieces, and a gruesome procedure.

00:25:41.940 That was the last abortion that I ever did.

00:25:46.720 I didn't become pro-life overnight.

00:25:48.920 It took a few years for that to happen.

00:25:54.480 And what kind of system surrounded you?

00:26:07.080 Because, you know, you were brought up through a system, and Planned Parenthood, you know, saw you as very valuable.

00:26:21.500 Tell me about that world.

00:26:24.120 And, you know, were you in, you know, I assume that, you know, they were, oh, you're so great at what you do, you know, very encouraging of the, you know, technical excellence.

00:26:42.520 Tell me about that world, and what was that environment like?

00:26:46.200 As a resident, I rotated through Planned Parenthood and was introduced to the abortion procedure, and I quickly became quite proficient at it.

00:27:01.740 And I think it was one of the first things as a resident that I was able to do proficiently by myself.

00:27:10.800 This was three years after Roe v. Wade was passed, so we were, the country was really starting to accept abortion, I think, at that time.

00:27:29.500 And I was separated, really, from the counseling of the patients.

00:27:35.960 I was just a technician, really, at that time.

00:27:38.600 But I became quite proficient at it.

00:27:42.840 And actually, I think over a year and a half doing abortions, I never had a major complication until the end.

00:27:52.540 Even traveling to other cities and doing abortions for money, I never had a complication, which gave me pride, I guess, as a resident, that I was able to do something myself.

00:28:07.060 You know, a resident is in training and always has supervision, but this was something I was doing independently, and I might say, in a word, proficiently.

00:28:19.840 You know, there's a lot of debate and discussion about Planned Parenthood and, you know, what their motives are, and a lot of arguments going back and forth from both sides.

00:28:35.120 Did you feel that Planned Parenthood, at least while you were there, was really interested in doing a lot of abortions and kind of, you know, creating an environment where that was seen as kind of, you know, a really prominent procedure to have women, you know, go through?

00:29:02.540 Well, this was 1976, and Planned Parenthood did a lot of different things.

00:29:14.040 They did annual physicals.

00:29:16.460 They did contraceptive counseling, and they were also doing abortions.

00:29:24.520 And abortions were done, I can't remember, I know they were done two or three times a week.

00:29:29.900 We were also doing laparoscopic sterilizations.

00:29:34.980 Abortion was only part of the process that was going on at Planned Parenthood, and I was actually not really involved in the counseling.

00:29:44.760 I was a technician.

00:29:45.580 So, as far as what was going on behind the scenes, I wasn't really aware of, but I was hired as a technician, actually, to perform abortions.

00:30:01.420 Can you describe what happens in an abortion?

00:30:04.440 Okay, an abortion procedure, in the days that I was doing them, and it really hasn't changed very much over the years, is done as a one-step or two-step procedure.

00:30:17.280 Usually, a woman who is early gestational age can be done in one step.

00:30:24.380 That means one visit.

00:30:25.740 I've got a little audiovisual here, I guess you might say.

00:30:35.220 This little gourd is the shape of about a seven-week-sized pregnant uterus.

00:30:40.780 The uterus here, the cervix here.

00:30:42.720 The procedure is done first by injecting a local anesthetic around the cervix, and this is the curette that we might use for an early pregnancy.

00:30:57.700 This is a six-millimeter flexible curette.

00:31:00.880 It's got some holes in the end here, and this connects to a suction tubing on the other end.

00:31:07.480 Once the cervix is anesthetized, dilators are used to force open the cervical opening.

00:31:15.640 We call it the cervical os.

00:31:17.980 The curette is then passed through the cervix, connected to a high-pressure suction on the other end.

00:31:27.440 The suction is then rotated round and round until the bag of water that contains the pregnancy inside the uterus is ruptured.

00:31:36.060 Once that happens, the membranes and the amniotic fluid are trapped inside those little openings in the end of the tube.

00:31:45.780 They're pulled out this way.

00:31:48.680 And if the pregnancy is early, most of the baby is small enough to pass through these little fenestrations here,

00:31:57.100 but a pregnancy of this size, the pregnancy would not be able to pass through that little opening.

00:32:03.960 So, at that point, we would use instruments to actually go in and pull the tissue out.

00:32:15.440 The sac would collapse.

00:32:18.440 The pieces of the baby would be extracted.

00:32:20.600 Sometimes parts of the baby would come through the tubing here.

00:32:25.420 We have instruments that would go inside the uterus and pull the remaining placenta and parts of the baby out.

00:32:32.360 Now, all of this was collected in a suction device.

00:32:38.480 And after the procedure is done, the uterus would contract.

00:32:44.340 And the baby, the parts of the baby would actually collect in a bag in the suction device.

00:32:54.320 And we would go through that to be sure all of the parts of the baby had been removed.

00:33:00.660 Because if something is left behind in the uterus, it sets up potential for infection that can lead to bleeding and death.

00:33:07.180 So, that's the way an abortion is performed.

00:33:13.240 Now, a two-step abortion, if the patient is further along and we need to dilate the cervix more than just what I showed you in the previous one,

00:33:23.820 a laminary attempt can be inserted into the cervix.

00:33:28.420 These are actually seaweed that absorbs moisture in the cervix overnight and will stretch the opening of the cervix large enough to get a curette that's larger than this one through.

00:33:39.780 So, the patient would return the second day.

00:33:44.880 The curette would be passed through and larger instruments could be passed into the uterus.

00:33:50.120 And the baby, again, removed in pieces.

00:33:53.360 Those pieces have to be accounted for.

00:33:55.400 And as I was doing abortions in those days, I would look at the pieces of the baby more as a pathologist would look at an autopsy.

00:34:11.640 There was obviously no life.

00:34:14.740 It was intriguing to me, I guess you might say, as a resident.

00:34:17.900 But we didn't have real-time ultrasound in those days, so we didn't see the baby moving, the heart beating, and so forth before we did the procedure.

00:34:30.840 We just saw what we removed and making sure all the pieces of the baby were removed.

00:34:38.420 Because if you leave part of the placenta, part of the baby back inside the uterus, it will set up infection.

00:34:48.000 The uterus will not contract properly.

00:34:49.820 There's bleeding and so forth that will happen afterwards.

00:34:57.740 So, that's basically walking through the procedure.

00:35:03.580 Yeah.

00:35:03.720 How are those forceps used?

00:35:10.040 Is that what those are called?

00:35:13.820 This is a ring clamp, and it really is too big to pass through.

00:35:17.240 But if the cervix were dilated more, we could actually pass this ring clamp inside the uterus.

00:35:23.480 There's teeth on the end of that that grasp tissue.

00:35:27.540 And if we were able to show you this on this, we would pass this inside grasp tissue and pull.

00:35:40.420 And you would pull out maybe a leg.

00:35:45.460 You can go back, grasp again, pull out another leg or arm,

00:35:51.000 the torso, and the head, and bring out the pieces one at a time.

00:35:58.560 This would be in a pregnancy that was 12, 13 weeks along.

00:36:03.220 And you actually can see a lot of the anatomy of the baby at that time.

00:36:08.040 The woman will experience a variable amount of discomfort during that procedure.

00:36:12.820 Many times when we did this, as we started, patients would begin crying and protesting.

00:36:27.280 But once we had begun dilating the cervix and passing instruments into the uterus,

00:36:31.660 it was too late to stop.

00:36:32.880 Well, abortion is sold as a concept, I think, to the American public.

00:36:43.180 And it's an abstract concept.

00:36:45.780 I think if the public could see an abortion through my eyes and see the reality of it,

00:36:55.740 the polling that you would see would dramatically increase toward opposition to abortion.

00:37:08.440 I can't imagine people seeing an abortion,

00:37:15.820 seeing what happens during an abortion,

00:37:17.700 not being appalled,

00:37:23.420 and that the statistics that you read about supporting abortion

00:37:28.840 would be vastly different if people could see the reality.

00:37:34.240 And it became more than just an abstract concept to them.

00:37:41.680 When someone finds out that you're pro-life,

00:37:45.860 and if someone challenges you on that,

00:37:52.740 what do you say to that person?

00:37:56.880 As a pro-life physician,

00:37:59.680 I've been

00:38:02.960 in a position, I think,

00:38:08.320 to share

00:38:08.860 the fact that

00:38:11.220 I haven't always been pro-life.

00:38:13.220 I was a

00:38:16.520 I was an abortionist.

00:38:19.260 I performed abortions.

00:38:23.320 I bought into the concept

00:38:25.140 hook, line, and sinker.

00:38:26.860 I was

00:38:27.140 all for it.

00:38:30.520 So,

00:38:31.240 I think when someone

00:38:32.220 wants to

00:38:34.320 have a conversation with me about

00:38:37.040 abortion,

00:38:37.580 I can understand

00:38:39.980 their point of view

00:38:42.060 and where they're coming from.

00:38:44.120 And

00:38:44.520 I'm patient with them

00:38:47.600 because

00:38:48.260 I understand that

00:38:52.360 it took me a while

00:38:53.820 to

00:38:54.340 come to the grips

00:38:56.740 with what I was doing

00:38:58.080 and

00:38:58.400 to develop

00:39:02.860 the attitude

00:39:04.020 toward a life

00:39:04.760 that I currently have.

00:39:06.680 I didn't always have

00:39:07.800 this attitude.

00:39:08.860 And so,

00:39:09.780 I guess you might say

00:39:10.880 I'm patient with

00:39:12.140 those that disagree with me.

00:39:15.700 I believe that

00:39:17.760 we have to have a dialogue

00:39:20.640 about it.

00:39:21.380 and

00:39:22.920 we

00:39:24.540 will gain a lot more

00:39:26.600 by having a reasonable dialogue

00:39:28.120 than

00:39:28.600 than

00:39:30.220 fighting over it.

00:39:33.220 Is it

00:39:33.500 emotional for you

00:39:35.820 to think back

00:39:37.140 on those days

00:39:38.780 and

00:39:40.440 explain

00:39:41.660 explain for the audience

00:39:42.780 why you get emotional

00:39:44.600 when you think about that?

00:39:45.540 Well,

00:39:46.060 reliving my

00:39:46.880 past

00:39:47.620 abortion experiences

00:39:49.460 does bring back

00:39:51.600 a certain amount

00:39:52.380 of emotional

00:39:53.440 trauma.

00:39:54.960 But

00:39:55.120 as a believer,

00:39:57.580 I know that

00:39:58.260 Christ died

00:39:59.960 for my sins

00:40:00.800 and I don't

00:40:02.000 bear them anymore.

00:40:03.040 I don't have the shame

00:40:03.960 and the guilt anymore.

00:40:05.080 And

00:40:05.120 this is

00:40:06.920 why I can

00:40:12.220 talk about it.

00:40:13.520 Not devoid of emotion,

00:40:15.000 and certainly

00:40:15.500 I wish that

00:40:16.880 I'd never been involved

00:40:19.100 in it in the first place.

00:40:20.300 But

00:40:20.440 there's a story

00:40:22.680 in the Bible

00:40:23.100 about

00:40:23.620 Joseph

00:40:25.720 and

00:40:26.360 how he

00:40:28.900 was sold

00:40:29.840 into slavery

00:40:30.420 by his brothers.

00:40:31.440 They were jealous

00:40:31.980 of him

00:40:32.480 when he was a little boy.

00:40:34.700 And

00:40:35.060 he

00:40:35.280 was taken to Egypt

00:40:36.780 and became

00:40:37.340 prime minister of Egypt.

00:40:38.660 And during a famine later,

00:40:40.000 this was many,

00:40:40.660 many years later,

00:40:41.420 his brothers

00:40:45.280 went to Egypt

00:40:46.040 to get

00:40:46.480 food

00:40:47.540 because there was

00:40:48.360 a famine.

00:40:49.880 And

00:40:50.160 when

00:40:50.460 he knew

00:40:53.380 who they were,

00:40:54.020 but they didn't

00:40:54.520 recognize him at first.

00:40:55.620 But when they did,

00:40:56.280 they were terrified.

00:40:57.120 They thought

00:40:57.500 he was going to

00:40:58.540 take revenge

00:41:03.440 on them.

00:41:03.900 But he said

00:41:05.880 something that

00:41:06.680 I think

00:41:07.700 applies

00:41:08.300 to my story

00:41:09.940 as well,

00:41:10.700 and that is

00:41:11.340 he told them

00:41:12.880 not to be afraid

00:41:14.040 because

00:41:14.660 they meant it

00:41:15.940 for evil,

00:41:16.500 but God

00:41:16.860 meant it

00:41:17.180 for good.

00:41:19.160 And so

00:41:19.480 I guess

00:41:19.960 what I would

00:41:20.680 say is

00:41:21.280 I

00:41:21.520 destroyed

00:41:23.640 700 babies.

00:41:25.180 That's true.

00:41:25.920 but

00:41:29.060 I'm having

00:41:30.180 an opportunity

00:41:30.960 now

00:41:31.520 to speak

00:41:33.060 for those

00:41:33.480 700 babies

00:41:34.320 that can't

00:41:34.700 speak for

00:41:35.060 themselves

00:41:35.440 anymore.

00:41:37.660 And

00:41:37.840 so that's

00:41:40.020 really a privilege

00:41:40.900 I guess

00:41:41.380 that I have

00:41:42.020 and I know

00:41:42.700 because Christ

00:41:44.460 died for my

00:41:45.380 abortion sins

00:41:47.140 and all my

00:41:47.620 other sins

00:41:48.240 as well

00:41:48.740 that I can

00:41:49.880 speak freely

00:41:50.460 of it.

00:41:50.880 I don't have

00:41:51.380 the shame

00:41:51.760 and the guilt

00:41:52.240 anymore.

00:41:54.380 And as I

00:41:55.180 speak to

00:41:55.680 those who

00:41:56.160 are suffering

00:41:56.880 from a

00:41:58.540 past abortion

00:41:59.340 or whatever,

00:42:00.040 I can certainly

00:42:00.660 identify with

00:42:01.420 that and

00:42:01.900 console him

00:42:04.220 and teach

00:42:04.880 them that

00:42:05.420 there is

00:42:06.500 one source

00:42:07.060 of forgiveness.

00:42:10.220 Abortion

00:42:10.780 inflicts a

00:42:11.700 spiritual wound.

00:42:13.980 As a

00:42:14.740 surgeon,

00:42:15.240 I've done

00:42:15.680 thousands of

00:42:17.160 surgical cases

00:42:18.040 and we

00:42:19.500 take a

00:42:19.860 scalpel and

00:42:20.440 we make

00:42:20.780 an incision.

00:42:21.640 We make

00:42:22.180 a physical

00:42:22.640 wound and

00:42:23.300 there's a

00:42:24.600 proper way

00:42:25.200 to repair

00:42:26.520 that wound,

00:42:27.260 put sutures

00:42:27.920 and create

00:42:29.340 hemostasis,

00:42:30.060 use antibiotics

00:42:30.720 when appropriate

00:42:31.400 to make that

00:42:32.240 wound heal

00:42:32.700 properly.

00:42:35.000 Abortion

00:42:35.560 inflicts a

00:42:36.780 spiritual wound.

00:42:39.360 A spiritual

00:42:40.260 wound can

00:42:41.040 be denied.

00:42:43.200 It can

00:42:43.460 be repressed.

00:42:46.740 It can

00:42:47.100 be in our

00:42:47.920 day we see

00:42:48.480 it celebrated,

00:42:49.380 but it's

00:42:52.400 a wound

00:42:52.780 nonetheless.

00:42:54.260 And

00:42:54.660 there's only

00:42:56.660 one cure

00:42:57.200 for that

00:42:57.600 wound.

00:42:58.680 I mean,

00:42:58.900 people go

00:43:00.500 to counseling

00:43:01.400 and other

00:43:01.800 things,

00:43:02.080 but there's

00:43:02.320 only one

00:43:02.820 real way

00:43:03.460 for that

00:43:06.120 wound to

00:43:06.560 be cured

00:43:08.140 and that's

00:43:08.840 through Christ.

00:43:11.700 And I've

00:43:12.380 come to realize

00:43:12.960 that.

00:43:13.400 I understand

00:43:13.900 that.

00:43:14.980 The guilt

00:43:15.460 and the shame

00:43:16.100 that I should

00:43:17.340 be bearing

00:43:17.840 because of

00:43:18.440 all the

00:43:18.780 abortions

00:43:19.280 that I

00:43:19.580 did,

00:43:21.060 Christ

00:43:21.400 bore for

00:43:21.880 me.

00:43:23.120 He has

00:43:23.980 freed me

00:43:26.940 from the

00:43:27.420 guilt and

00:43:27.780 the shame

00:43:28.240 because he

00:43:28.880 bore those

00:43:29.360 sins in

00:43:32.060 his body.

00:43:33.520 So I

00:43:34.460 bear them

00:43:34.900 no more

00:43:35.440 and I'm

00:43:36.200 free to

00:43:36.580 talk about

00:43:37.200 what I've

00:43:38.060 done.

00:43:38.500 Yes,

00:43:38.880 it's emotional.

00:43:39.760 Yes,

00:43:40.000 do I wish

00:43:42.380 I'd never

00:43:42.760 done them?

00:43:44.760 Yes,

00:43:45.340 but in the

00:43:45.740 greater picture

00:43:46.440 knowing that

00:43:48.060 I've been

00:43:48.420 forgiven and

00:43:49.460 that I can

00:43:50.800 speak to

00:43:51.240 others about

00:43:51.820 that forgiveness.

00:43:55.320 And I

00:43:56.040 know that

00:43:56.700 I've said

00:43:59.400 this before

00:44:00.080 that those

00:44:01.840 700 babies

00:44:02.720 can't speak

00:44:03.660 for themselves

00:44:04.180 anymore but

00:44:04.740 they're speaking

00:44:05.440 through me.

00:44:09.040 We have

00:44:09.820 more from

00:44:10.680 Dr. Steve

00:44:11.320 Hammond

00:44:11.700 coming up.

00:44:12.340 First,

00:44:12.680 though,

00:44:13.120 be sure to

00:44:13.720 text

00:44:14.100 PRO-LIFE

00:44:14.880 to

00:44:15.240 47581.

00:44:17.540 Because as

00:44:18.140 the country

00:44:18.620 grapples with

00:44:19.300 the aftermath

00:44:19.820 of overturning

00:44:20.680 Roe v.

00:44:21.340 Wade,

00:44:21.940 the pro-life

00:44:22.540 movement has

00:44:23.200 come under

00:44:23.640 fire from

00:44:24.480 far-left

00:44:25.340 pro-abortion

00:44:26.080 extremists.

00:44:27.460 Not only

00:44:27.820 have leftists

00:44:28.420 firebombed and

00:44:29.360 vandalized pro-life

00:44:30.500 clinics in

00:44:31.160 multiple states,

00:44:32.520 but online

00:44:33.180 pro-life groups

00:44:34.080 have experienced

00:44:35.100 mass censorship

00:44:36.120 by Google,

00:44:37.580 Facebook,

00:44:38.440 TikTok,

00:44:39.340 you name it.

00:44:40.260 That's why

00:44:40.700 Live Action

00:44:41.340 has been

00:44:41.720 working tirelessly

00:44:42.620 to find ways

00:44:43.340 to spread the

00:44:43.960 truth about

00:44:44.540 abortion and

00:44:45.600 share resources

00:44:46.320 with those

00:44:46.940 who need

00:44:47.300 it most

00:44:47.820 without relying

00:44:49.020 on biased

00:44:49.720 big tech.

00:44:50.880 If you want

00:44:51.380 to join

00:44:51.700 Live Action's

00:44:52.440 Fight for Life,

00:44:53.540 text PRO-LIFE

00:44:54.640 to 47581

00:44:56.300 and opt in

00:44:57.460 to receive

00:44:57.900 updates from

00:44:58.540 Live Action

00:44:59.140 about their

00:44:59.960 ongoing work

00:45:00.780 to end

00:45:01.240 abortion.

00:45:02.360 Texting

00:45:02.800 PRO-LIFE

00:45:03.300 to 47581

00:45:04.500 means you

00:45:05.400 won't be at

00:45:05.940 the mercy

00:45:06.340 of the

00:45:06.780 big tech

00:45:07.240 censors

00:45:07.740 in the

00:45:08.400 ongoing

00:45:08.840 fight for

00:45:09.660 life.

00:45:14.540 At one

00:45:19.920 point in

00:45:20.300 your answer

00:45:20.760 you

00:45:21.520 mentioned

00:45:22.580 that you

00:45:22.960 wished

00:45:23.300 that you

00:45:24.160 hadn't

00:45:24.660 been a

00:45:25.660 part of

00:45:25.940 that,

00:45:26.540 what Planned

00:45:27.020 Parenthood was

00:45:27.500 doing,

00:45:27.860 what you did

00:45:28.300 in your

00:45:28.580 career.

00:45:30.800 Can you

00:45:31.660 maybe talk

00:45:33.220 about how

00:45:33.880 you hope

00:45:35.080 that your

00:45:35.960 story can

00:45:36.780 perhaps impact

00:45:38.760 or influence

00:45:39.820 either other

00:45:41.100 doctors or

00:45:41.780 mothers

00:45:42.180 to not

00:45:43.980 make the

00:45:44.400 mistakes

00:45:44.760 that you

00:45:45.820 made?

00:45:46.920 Well,

00:45:47.080 I'm often

00:45:47.480 asked,

00:45:49.460 do you

00:45:50.540 wish you

00:45:50.880 could turn

00:45:51.220 back the

00:45:51.600 clock and

00:45:52.240 not have

00:45:54.400 done the

00:45:54.760 abortions you

00:45:55.400 did?

00:45:57.300 And part

00:45:58.480 of me says,

00:45:59.440 yes,

00:46:00.180 that would be

00:46:01.060 great if I

00:46:04.440 could have

00:46:05.820 never had to

00:46:06.560 experience that.

00:46:08.340 But there's a

00:46:09.280 lot of learning

00:46:09.840 that goes along

00:46:10.980 with our

00:46:11.820 mistakes in

00:46:12.560 life.

00:46:13.260 And had I

00:46:17.060 not gone

00:46:18.820 through that,

00:46:19.660 I would not

00:46:20.320 be able to

00:46:20.960 speak with

00:46:21.600 the authority

00:46:22.600 that I think

00:46:23.240 I can speak

00:46:23.900 now.

00:46:27.200 Because now

00:46:28.020 I can

00:46:29.200 explain how

00:46:32.300 Christ forgives

00:46:33.160 us of the

00:46:33.980 things that

00:46:35.300 we do in

00:46:36.460 this life

00:46:37.080 because he

00:46:39.200 bore those

00:46:40.700 sins.

00:46:41.240 He didn't

00:46:42.140 deserve

00:46:42.580 them.

00:46:45.540 He didn't

00:46:46.440 deserve to

00:46:47.760 die for

00:46:48.840 our sins,

00:46:49.480 but he

00:46:49.720 did.

00:46:52.440 I tell you,

00:46:53.300 it's more

00:46:53.720 emotional for

00:46:54.440 me to

00:46:55.220 think about

00:46:58.920 a positive

00:47:02.420 impact that

00:47:03.740 my story

00:47:04.380 might have

00:47:05.120 that Christ

00:47:06.380 will use

00:47:08.260 to change

00:47:09.500 hearts and

00:47:09.940 minds.

00:47:11.380 That's what

00:47:12.140 brings tears

00:47:12.680 to my eyes

00:47:13.360 rather than

00:47:13.900 the tears

00:47:14.380 of regret

00:47:15.460 and remorse.

00:47:17.300 So to

00:47:18.220 that point,

00:47:20.020 do you

00:47:22.960 hope that

00:47:23.800 your story

00:47:24.500 or that

00:47:26.620 some portion

00:47:27.100 of your

00:47:27.360 story might

00:47:28.020 speak to

00:47:30.940 a woman

00:47:31.300 who doesn't

00:47:32.380 know what

00:47:32.660 to do and

00:47:33.360 feels lost

00:47:34.520 and feels

00:47:35.580 unsupported

00:47:36.360 and that

00:47:39.540 perhaps hearing

00:47:40.340 your story,

00:47:42.160 a baby's

00:47:42.580 life might

00:47:42.960 be saved?

00:47:44.920 You know,

00:47:45.640 I often

00:47:46.120 encounter

00:47:46.660 patients who

00:47:47.600 are struggling

00:47:48.820 with what

00:47:50.680 they call

00:47:51.140 an unplanned

00:47:51.820 pregnancy.

00:47:54.500 and I

00:48:00.200 don't want

00:48:00.440 to minimize

00:48:00.820 the heartache

00:48:01.660 that that

00:48:02.940 causes.

00:48:03.860 It's not

00:48:05.720 easy,

00:48:06.440 particularly

00:48:06.760 in a culture

00:48:07.380 that is

00:48:08.640 so oriented

00:48:10.140 towards self

00:48:10.940 and sometimes

00:48:14.600 it's hard

00:48:15.300 to break

00:48:15.680 through that

00:48:16.220 external

00:48:18.340 emotional

00:48:22.120 part of

00:48:23.120 that.

00:48:23.480 and I

00:48:24.640 don't want

00:48:25.040 to minimize

00:48:25.440 that,

00:48:26.600 but I

00:48:27.440 have

00:48:27.860 encountered

00:48:28.500 so many

00:48:29.100 patients

00:48:29.680 who

00:48:30.220 have,

00:48:33.900 well,

00:48:34.140 first,

00:48:34.580 patients

00:48:34.920 who've

00:48:36.160 gone on

00:48:36.920 to deliver

00:48:37.640 a baby

00:48:38.160 in a

00:48:38.820 difficult

00:48:40.700 circumstance

00:48:41.500 that in

00:48:44.340 the end

00:48:44.840 have looked

00:48:45.280 back on

00:48:45.820 it and

00:48:46.240 come back

00:48:47.600 and told

00:48:48.000 me that,

00:48:49.560 you know,

00:48:49.900 though that

00:48:50.240 was a very

00:48:50.760 difficult time

00:48:51.460 in their

00:48:51.740 life,

00:48:52.180 they're so

00:48:54.120 glad that

00:48:54.580 they did

00:48:54.920 what they

00:48:55.240 did.

00:48:55.860 Maybe

00:48:56.060 they've

00:48:56.300 given the

00:48:56.640 baby up

00:48:57.020 for adoption

00:48:57.640 or maybe

00:48:58.820 they've

00:49:00.140 overcome the

00:49:01.720 demons that

00:49:02.380 told them

00:49:02.860 that they

00:49:05.240 couldn't carry

00:49:05.720 that pregnancy

00:49:06.360 and that's

00:49:08.280 happened so

00:49:08.720 many times.

00:49:09.520 I've had

00:49:09.780 the opportunity

00:49:10.500 to discuss

00:49:12.440 this with

00:49:14.000 patients

00:49:14.540 through the

00:49:17.840 years and

00:49:19.300 then having

00:49:22.260 to counsel

00:49:23.940 patients who

00:49:24.820 have had

00:49:25.300 abortions and

00:49:26.240 and to

00:49:28.340 tell them

00:49:28.960 about the

00:49:29.800 saving grace

00:49:33.720 that Christ

00:49:34.680 brings and

00:49:36.060 it's the

00:49:36.420 only healing

00:49:38.120 that can

00:49:40.320 solve the

00:49:41.520 pain of

00:49:42.380 what they're

00:49:42.960 experiencing.

00:49:44.960 But it's

00:49:45.240 so reliable

00:49:49.880 because,

00:49:51.100 you know,

00:49:51.420 my story,

00:49:52.100 society should

00:49:55.960 look at me

00:49:56.520 as a

00:49:57.240 mass

00:49:59.340 murderer,

00:50:00.300 but they

00:50:01.140 don't because

00:50:02.780 abortion is

00:50:04.620 accepted by

00:50:05.280 our society.

00:50:06.540 But I know

00:50:07.440 as a

00:50:07.700 Christian that

00:50:08.300 I have

00:50:08.680 taken the

00:50:09.880 lives of

00:50:10.680 700

00:50:12.020 babies that

00:50:12.920 probably

00:50:15.600 would have

00:50:16.040 been parents

00:50:17.140 and

00:50:17.700 grandparents

00:50:18.680 today.

00:50:23.500 But I

00:50:24.540 can stand

00:50:25.040 here or

00:50:26.460 sit here and

00:50:27.180 discuss with

00:50:28.080 you what I've

00:50:28.720 done without

00:50:29.400 the guilt and

00:50:30.680 the shame that

00:50:31.400 I really should

00:50:32.320 bear, but I

00:50:33.060 don't because

00:50:34.920 of Christ

00:50:36.600 has taken

00:50:37.180 that burden

00:50:39.360 away from me.

00:50:40.060 I don't have

00:50:40.580 the guilt and

00:50:41.060 the shame, so

00:50:41.700 I can speak

00:50:43.860 of it truthfully,

00:50:45.480 but without

00:50:46.680 a lot of

00:50:48.340 emotion because

00:50:49.220 truthfully, I

00:50:50.980 don't have the

00:50:51.820 guilt and the

00:50:52.300 shame anymore.

00:50:53.000 And that's

00:50:53.400 what I would

00:50:54.460 share with a

00:50:55.180 woman who's

00:50:56.420 struggling with

00:50:57.720 the fact that

00:50:58.260 she had an

00:50:58.800 abortion,

00:51:01.220 that that's

00:51:01.680 where she

00:51:02.060 needs to

00:51:02.660 seek the

00:51:05.140 forgiveness.

00:51:10.560 And a lot

00:51:11.580 of people are

00:51:12.060 not used to

00:51:12.640 praying.

00:51:13.660 Maybe they

00:51:14.200 don't even

00:51:14.660 believe that

00:51:15.360 there's a

00:51:16.080 God that

00:51:16.480 answers prayer,

00:51:17.400 but let

00:51:18.560 me assure

00:51:19.060 you that

00:51:19.580 he's there

00:51:20.160 and the

00:51:22.480 one prayer

00:51:23.360 he will

00:51:23.740 answer is

00:51:24.380 one that

00:51:24.900 I did

00:51:26.080 wrong, I

00:51:26.760 have made

00:51:27.660 mistakes,

00:51:28.320 and to

00:51:34.060 feel the

00:51:34.840 peace that

00:51:36.020 comes from

00:51:37.180 that forgiveness

00:51:37.880 is something I

00:51:39.940 can share and

00:51:41.020 have shared

00:51:41.640 with patients

00:51:42.740 who are

00:51:43.240 suffering with

00:51:44.740 the unwanted

00:51:45.840 or unplanned

00:51:47.820 pregnancy that

00:51:48.620 they had,

00:51:49.140 that they

00:51:49.540 ended with

00:51:52.660 an abortion,

00:51:53.720 and they're

00:51:54.400 having trouble

00:51:54.900 coming to

00:51:55.400 grips with it.

00:51:56.080 That's the

00:51:56.860 one solution

00:51:59.320 to the pain

00:52:01.700 that they're

00:52:02.100 experiencing.

00:52:03.080 It's the one

00:52:03.680 place.

00:52:04.920 Secular

00:52:05.300 counseling is a

00:52:07.040 dead end

00:52:07.660 unless it's

00:52:10.240 tied to the

00:52:10.980 forgiveness of

00:52:11.680 Christ, because

00:52:12.420 ultimately that's

00:52:13.380 where our

00:52:13.680 forgiveness comes

00:52:14.380 from.

00:52:16.180 That's

00:52:16.320 beautiful, thank

00:52:16.940 you.

00:52:18.120 I think

00:52:18.600 the, I

00:52:21.500 think that we've

00:52:22.340 covered beautifully,

00:52:23.460 or you've covered

00:52:24.040 beautifully, how

00:52:26.080 your story helps

00:52:26.860 people who are

00:52:30.240 dealing with the

00:52:31.400 grief of what

00:52:31.920 they've done,

00:52:33.200 and the guilt of

00:52:33.880 what they've

00:52:34.180 done.

00:52:34.400 can we focus

00:52:36.580 for a moment

00:52:37.540 on how

00:52:39.460 your story can

00:52:40.220 hopefully help

00:52:41.100 prevent abortions

00:52:43.220 and save lives

00:52:44.360 as well?

00:52:46.400 Well, I went

00:52:47.280 to medical

00:52:49.000 school and

00:52:50.160 residency,

00:52:51.880 became a

00:52:52.400 physician to

00:52:55.060 heal and

00:52:57.300 to help

00:52:57.660 people.

00:53:01.400 These hands

00:53:02.760 that were

00:53:03.100 trained over

00:53:04.120 40 years

00:53:05.100 ago, to

00:53:07.000 save lives,

00:53:09.060 to heal

00:53:09.520 the sick.

00:53:11.280 I used

00:53:12.080 them to

00:53:13.080 destroy

00:53:13.500 life.

00:53:16.340 And

00:53:16.680 through

00:53:20.180 my faith

00:53:22.040 in Christ,

00:53:22.760 I know

00:53:23.120 that he

00:53:24.480 is using

00:53:24.960 that for

00:53:25.660 his glory.

00:53:26.560 and I

00:53:32.220 guess the

00:53:32.720 message that

00:53:33.300 I would

00:53:33.600 have for

00:53:34.440 a woman

00:53:35.780 who is

00:53:36.440 in a

00:53:36.860 difficult

00:53:37.420 situation,

00:53:38.780 and I

00:53:41.180 don't want

00:53:41.620 to say

00:53:42.000 anything to

00:53:42.820 diminish the

00:53:43.720 fact that

00:53:44.240 there isn't

00:53:45.360 a lot of

00:53:46.040 difficulty with

00:53:48.960 pregnancy

00:53:49.480 that seems

00:53:50.380 unplanned

00:53:52.020 and not

00:53:55.680 at the

00:53:55.920 proper time

00:53:56.820 or social

00:53:59.480 situations

00:54:00.240 have made

00:54:00.700 it unbearable.

00:54:02.280 I would

00:54:03.060 say that

00:54:03.700 anything that

00:54:07.160 happens to

00:54:07.700 us is

00:54:10.100 not

00:54:11.400 unplanned

00:54:12.780 by God

00:54:13.760 and

00:54:15.260 that he

00:54:18.000 is able

00:54:19.440 to redeem

00:54:20.160 in his

00:54:22.480 time

00:54:22.960 what seems

00:54:25.160 like an

00:54:25.920 insurmountable

00:54:26.760 mountain to

00:54:27.420 climb,

00:54:27.840 but it's

00:54:29.380 not

00:54:29.620 insurmountable

00:54:30.400 and I've

00:54:33.240 seen so

00:54:33.740 many times

00:54:34.580 a woman

00:54:35.620 who comes

00:54:36.180 with an

00:54:37.780 intent to

00:54:38.560 abort her

00:54:40.420 baby

00:54:40.780 and it's

00:54:43.520 hard to

00:54:43.920 do the

00:54:44.320 full amount

00:54:45.280 of counseling

00:54:45.740 I need to

00:54:46.220 do in a

00:54:46.640 15-minute

00:54:47.160 office visit.

00:54:49.100 So I've

00:54:49.840 learned to

00:54:50.540 sometimes

00:54:51.200 encourage

00:54:52.100 patients to

00:54:53.000 go to

00:54:54.780 here in

00:54:55.360 Jackson.

00:54:55.920 We have

00:54:56.200 our birth

00:54:56.840 choice,

00:54:57.300 which is a

00:54:57.700 crisis

00:54:58.000 pregnancy

00:54:58.440 center,

00:54:59.880 where there

00:55:00.080 are trained

00:55:00.460 counselors to

00:55:01.460 spend the

00:55:02.660 kind of

00:55:02.940 time with

00:55:04.560 her and

00:55:06.540 walk her

00:55:06.980 through that.

00:55:08.520 Many of the

00:55:09.320 counselors

00:55:09.660 themselves have

00:55:10.680 faced difficult

00:55:11.540 situations.

00:55:13.320 Many of

00:55:13.640 them have

00:55:13.900 had abortions.

00:55:17.000 Aborting the

00:55:17.840 baby adds

00:55:20.640 another layer

00:55:21.480 of pain to

00:55:22.920 what's already

00:55:23.480 happening and

00:55:24.860 I think that's

00:55:25.540 the ultimate

00:55:26.040 thing I would

00:55:27.680 say to

00:55:28.280 someone in

00:55:28.800 that

00:55:28.960 situation.

00:55:32.220 It looks

00:55:34.500 like a

00:55:34.980 good short

00:55:35.960 term solution

00:55:36.800 and that's

00:55:38.600 the way

00:55:38.820 counseling in

00:55:39.760 an abortion

00:55:40.200 center is

00:55:41.340 usually directed.

00:55:42.540 You have a

00:55:43.080 problem, we

00:55:43.620 can fix your

00:55:44.140 problem.

00:55:45.140 It's a

00:55:45.640 short term

00:55:46.680 problem.

00:55:48.120 Once it's

00:55:48.720 fixed, you can

00:55:49.240 go on about

00:55:49.660 your life, but

00:55:50.320 the problem

00:55:50.820 is.

00:55:52.220 It's like

00:55:53.060 somebody who

00:55:53.940 goes off to

00:55:55.840 war and

00:55:56.240 comes back

00:55:56.800 with PTSD.

00:55:59.900 That

00:56:00.540 spiritual wound

00:56:01.780 is there

00:56:02.500 and it

00:56:04.940 compounds

00:56:07.640 the pain

00:56:08.780 of an

00:56:09.240 unwanted

00:56:09.640 pregnancy.

00:56:11.200 in my

00:56:14.720 experience

00:56:15.420 over the

00:56:15.900 years, I

00:56:17.460 have seen

00:56:18.040 women 20,

00:56:20.820 25 years

00:56:21.660 later still

00:56:22.340 living with

00:56:23.060 the, in

00:56:25.160 many cases,

00:56:25.860 guilt,

00:56:27.100 remorse,

00:56:27.640 always, shame

00:56:29.620 usually, of

00:56:31.600 aborting their

00:56:33.200 child.

00:56:33.660 many times

00:56:35.740 this is

00:56:36.200 suppressed or

00:56:37.300 locked in

00:56:40.140 a room

00:56:41.420 deep in

00:56:41.860 the soul.

00:56:43.820 The only

00:56:44.160 problem is

00:56:44.680 that room

00:56:45.080 is not

00:56:45.420 soundproof,

00:56:46.180 I'll usually

00:56:46.740 say.

00:56:48.300 And it

00:56:50.500 is adding

00:56:52.780 a layer

00:56:53.600 of pain

00:56:54.560 that the

00:56:56.040 unwanted

00:56:56.360 pregnancy

00:56:56.900 has already

00:56:57.740 laid.

00:57:00.860 And my

00:57:02.180 encouragement

00:57:02.700 would be

00:57:03.400 it's hard

00:57:04.680 to see

00:57:05.240 the light

00:57:06.260 at the

00:57:06.520 end of

00:57:06.740 the tunnel.

00:57:07.840 It's hard

00:57:08.580 to see

00:57:09.240 how not

00:57:11.640 aborting that

00:57:12.220 baby is

00:57:13.500 the right

00:57:13.880 choice when

00:57:14.660 everything in

00:57:15.860 our secular

00:57:16.940 society,

00:57:19.720 and sometimes

00:57:20.460 the advice

00:57:21.520 of parents

00:57:22.360 and boyfriends

00:57:24.200 and sometimes

00:57:25.700 spouses,

00:57:27.280 tell you the

00:57:28.180 opposite.

00:57:31.940 But

00:57:32.580 in the end

00:57:36.480 after the

00:57:40.540 pregnancy is

00:57:41.240 over and

00:57:42.380 looking back,

00:57:44.120 I don't

00:57:45.040 recall ever

00:57:46.040 having a

00:57:48.000 mother tell

00:57:48.740 me she

00:57:49.380 wished she

00:57:49.900 had aborted

00:57:50.320 her baby.

00:57:53.960 Those that

00:57:54.820 keep their

00:57:55.280 baby,

00:57:56.920 those that

00:57:57.400 choose to

00:57:58.200 give their

00:57:58.740 baby up for

00:57:59.320 adoption,

00:57:59.800 I don't

00:58:01.240 recall ever

00:58:02.140 hearing someone

00:58:03.060 say they

00:58:03.620 wished they

00:58:04.060 had aborted

00:58:04.460 their baby.

00:58:07.020 I do

00:58:08.080 hear women

00:58:08.660 who have

00:58:09.140 aborted

00:58:09.420 their baby

00:58:09.960 tell me

00:58:11.040 they wished

00:58:11.440 they hadn't.

00:58:12.180 how has

00:58:14.800 the scientific

00:58:17.700 and medical

00:58:18.760 understanding

00:58:19.400 of life,

00:58:22.580 conception,

00:58:24.020 what's

00:58:24.320 happening in

00:58:25.100 the womb,

00:58:26.400 how has all

00:58:27.000 that shifted

00:58:27.980 or changed,

00:58:29.440 and has it

00:58:30.440 shifted and

00:58:31.380 changed since

00:58:32.680 the 70s when

00:58:34.640 Roe v.

00:58:35.020 Wade became

00:58:35.460 law?

00:58:35.720 Well, a lot

00:58:37.120 has changed

00:58:37.680 since I

00:58:39.560 was a

00:58:39.880 medical

00:58:40.120 student and

00:58:41.480 Roe v.

00:58:42.400 Wade was

00:58:42.820 passed.

00:58:45.200 I mean,

00:58:45.700 let's look at

00:58:46.180 technology first.

00:58:47.880 There was no

00:58:48.280 such thing as

00:58:49.140 real-time

00:58:49.920 ultrasound.

00:58:51.920 We didn't

00:58:52.720 see the

00:58:53.080 baby in

00:58:54.880 utero.

00:58:55.660 We didn't

00:58:56.060 see the

00:58:56.440 heart beating.

00:58:59.940 We have

00:59:00.580 learned so

00:59:01.080 much from

00:59:02.180 technology.

00:59:02.860 we didn't

00:59:05.800 know a

00:59:06.900 lot about

00:59:07.540 the genome

00:59:08.240 project,

00:59:09.000 the ability

00:59:10.080 to understand

00:59:12.960 our DNA

00:59:16.840 and how it

00:59:17.960 expresses itself.

00:59:19.500 Much of

00:59:20.060 that's come

00:59:20.420 about since

00:59:22.660 Roe v.

00:59:23.220 Wade came

00:59:23.720 out.

00:59:26.740 It's just

00:59:27.620 impossible to

00:59:29.140 go back to

00:59:29.880 the time

00:59:30.640 of 1973

00:59:32.460 with the

00:59:34.200 understanding

00:59:34.720 that we

00:59:36.800 had in

00:59:39.080 medicine and

00:59:41.400 try to

00:59:41.840 extrapolate

00:59:42.560 that to

00:59:43.060 today.

00:59:46.300 It's one

00:59:46.720 of the

00:59:46.940 reasons that

00:59:47.640 those that

00:59:50.120 support abortion

00:59:50.920 now are

00:59:51.440 having such

00:59:51.960 a difficult

00:59:52.420 time convincing

00:59:54.800 people,

00:59:57.040 lay people,

00:59:59.300 that abortion,

01:00:01.500 and in

01:00:02.340 the beginning

01:00:02.760 they called

01:00:03.460 it a

01:00:03.680 blob of

01:00:04.080 tissue and

01:00:04.600 basically most

01:00:06.880 lay people

01:00:07.420 would not

01:00:09.360 question that.

01:00:10.340 Now, all

01:00:11.900 you got to

01:00:12.160 do is go

01:00:12.540 on the

01:00:12.780 internet and

01:00:13.240 you can

01:00:13.440 see videos

01:00:15.240 of seven

01:00:15.720 week,

01:00:17.320 eight week

01:00:18.220 babies in

01:00:20.220 utero with

01:00:21.560 their heart

01:00:21.920 beating,

01:00:22.800 moving around.

01:00:23.720 and that

01:00:26.100 wasn't

01:00:26.300 available in

01:00:26.960 1973.

01:00:31.360 I mean,

01:00:31.840 most lay

01:00:32.560 people see

01:00:33.340 that.

01:00:34.520 So now

01:00:35.040 they're having

01:00:38.260 to resort to

01:00:39.100 changing the

01:00:39.780 language.

01:00:40.780 They're trying

01:00:41.560 to sanitize

01:00:42.700 the abortion

01:00:43.780 procedure.

01:00:45.740 They're

01:00:46.500 changing how

01:00:48.780 we speak

01:00:49.680 of the

01:00:50.880 baby growing

01:00:51.680 in utero,

01:00:53.520 changing

01:00:54.400 things to

01:00:55.700 basically

01:00:56.140 sanitize

01:00:57.280 the life

01:00:59.760 of a

01:01:00.180 growing baby

01:01:00.920 in a

01:01:01.660 mother's

01:01:02.220 womb so

01:01:04.340 that abortion

01:01:05.640 becomes more

01:01:06.420 palatable.

01:01:07.700 But I think

01:01:08.160 that's going

01:01:09.480 to fail.

01:01:12.440 The

01:01:12.740 stigma of

01:01:14.600 abortion

01:01:15.020 is becoming

01:01:17.760 more and more

01:01:18.300 real to the

01:01:19.060 average lay

01:01:19.640 person.

01:01:20.100 and you

01:01:23.580 can change

01:01:24.180 the language,

01:01:25.420 but eventually

01:01:25.940 the stigma

01:01:26.520 will catch

01:01:26.940 up with

01:01:27.220 the language.

01:01:29.600 And I

01:01:32.800 think more

01:01:33.180 and more

01:01:33.380 people are

01:01:33.920 aware of

01:01:34.900 what's

01:01:35.160 happening in

01:01:35.740 utero today

01:01:36.640 than they

01:01:38.060 were in

01:01:38.920 1973.

01:01:40.460 And there's

01:01:41.880 certainly more

01:01:42.480 sources for

01:01:43.600 that kind of

01:01:44.160 information to

01:01:45.000 get out

01:01:45.440 through the

01:01:47.400 internet and

01:01:49.380 television.

01:01:53.260 I mean,

01:01:54.560 there were

01:01:55.400 about four

01:01:56.260 channels in

01:01:57.500 1973 on

01:01:58.700 television.

01:01:59.580 And that was

01:01:59.920 about the

01:02:00.340 extent of our

01:02:01.080 ability to get

01:02:01.760 information back

01:02:02.660 then.

01:02:03.500 And it's just

01:02:05.220 exploded wildly

01:02:06.860 since then.

01:02:07.580 can you

01:02:09.200 just kind of

01:02:10.220 quickly juxtapose

01:02:11.560 it could even

01:02:12.420 be a quick

01:02:13.800 list of,

01:02:14.380 you know,

01:02:14.500 some of the

01:02:15.160 medical

01:02:15.940 understanding

01:02:16.540 at the

01:02:17.140 time versus

01:02:18.220 medical

01:02:19.520 understanding

01:02:20.000 today,

01:02:20.560 technology at

01:02:21.120 the time,

01:02:21.660 technology

01:02:22.020 today,

01:02:22.360 just so people

01:02:23.120 can see kind

01:02:23.540 of side by

01:02:24.000 side,

01:02:25.260 you know,

01:02:26.160 oh,

01:02:26.520 wow,

01:02:26.900 it was kind

01:02:27.340 of like,

01:02:28.300 no wonder

01:02:28.660 something like

01:02:29.160 Roe v.

01:02:29.560 Wade could

01:02:30.320 happen because

01:02:31.900 it was like

01:02:32.560 the dark

01:02:32.960 ages in

01:02:33.620 terms of,

01:02:34.160 you know,

01:02:34.760 in terms of

01:02:35.500 how,

01:02:35.860 I mean,

01:02:36.640 truly dark

01:02:37.500 like in

01:02:38.140 terms of

01:02:38.420 people not

01:02:38.800 even being

01:02:39.200 able to

01:02:39.460 see into

01:02:39.880 the womb

01:02:40.220 really.

01:02:41.560 Well,

01:02:41.600 Roe v.

01:02:42.060 Wade was

01:02:42.400 passed down

01:02:42.940 in 1973

01:02:43.800 and to

01:02:46.100 compare that

01:02:46.740 with the

01:02:47.460 knowledge and

01:02:49.220 the technology

01:02:50.100 we have

01:02:50.720 today is

01:02:51.660 there's a

01:02:54.200 huge difference.

01:02:57.020 We were

01:02:57.780 flying blindly

01:02:58.680 most of the

01:02:59.360 time when we

01:03:00.060 did abortions

01:03:00.940 in 1976

01:03:02.360 when I was

01:03:03.920 introduced to

01:03:04.600 the procedure

01:03:05.380 and I

01:03:08.040 say blindly,

01:03:08.800 the only

01:03:09.060 thing we

01:03:09.480 had to

01:03:09.760 go on

01:03:10.140 then was

01:03:10.660 the last

01:03:11.880 menstrual

01:03:12.300 period and

01:03:13.920 our physical

01:03:14.600 examination.

01:03:15.840 So we

01:03:16.460 had to be

01:03:16.800 pretty good

01:03:17.340 at doing

01:03:17.920 a physical

01:03:18.340 exam,

01:03:19.160 a pelvic

01:03:19.760 exam to

01:03:20.480 determine the

01:03:21.100 uterine

01:03:21.400 size.

01:03:24.700 Now,

01:03:25.460 of course,

01:03:26.300 ultrasound can

01:03:27.580 determine

01:03:28.820 gestational

01:03:30.580 age within

01:03:31.180 a few

01:03:31.500 days.

01:03:31.940 we see

01:03:33.720 incredible

01:03:36.160 detail,

01:03:37.260 incredible

01:03:37.740 detail.

01:03:38.220 Even as

01:03:38.760 early as

01:03:39.340 10 to

01:03:40.580 12 weeks,

01:03:41.240 we can

01:03:41.520 see anomalies

01:03:42.840 that we

01:03:43.900 used to,

01:03:45.600 we didn't

01:03:46.120 notice or

01:03:47.380 didn't know

01:03:47.800 until birth.

01:03:50.280 So it's

01:03:51.960 been a huge

01:03:52.640 change in

01:03:54.080 that piece of

01:03:54.980 technology for

01:03:55.900 sure.

01:03:56.300 we were

01:03:58.800 doing,

01:04:00.700 it was

01:04:01.200 just

01:04:01.440 starting

01:04:02.020 then,

01:04:03.260 prenatal

01:04:03.680 diagnosis.

01:04:04.700 We were

01:04:05.000 doing

01:04:05.940 amniocentesis

01:04:06.960 to check

01:04:07.540 for things

01:04:08.020 like Down

01:04:08.520 syndrome and

01:04:10.360 other

01:04:10.560 chromosomal

01:04:11.140 defects

01:04:11.660 back then.

01:04:13.100 But when

01:04:13.500 we did

01:04:13.940 amniocentesis

01:04:15.520 back then,

01:04:15.940 we were

01:04:16.200 flying blindly.

01:04:17.240 We were

01:04:17.460 sticking

01:04:17.720 needles

01:04:18.140 into the

01:04:20.100 amniotic

01:04:20.600 sac without

01:04:21.200 really knowing

01:04:22.300 where the

01:04:23.780 placenta was,

01:04:24.680 where the

01:04:25.020 baby was.

01:04:27.980 And now,

01:04:28.360 of course,

01:04:28.560 it's done

01:04:29.040 under

01:04:29.620 ultrasound

01:04:30.500 guidance.

01:04:39.660 So,

01:04:40.460 abortion is

01:04:41.560 a blind

01:04:42.140 procedure

01:04:42.920 when it

01:04:44.300 was done,

01:04:45.140 particularly

01:04:45.520 when it

01:04:45.800 was done

01:04:46.100 in the

01:04:47.260 70s.

01:04:48.540 That is,

01:04:49.580 we didn't

01:04:50.740 see what

01:04:51.220 was going

01:04:51.660 on.

01:04:52.040 We passed

01:04:52.520 a curette

01:04:55.000 into the

01:04:55.440 uterus,

01:04:55.860 turn on

01:04:56.180 the suction,

01:04:59.340 we'd get

01:05:00.000 the amniotic

01:05:00.560 fluid back,

01:05:01.260 we'd pull

01:05:01.720 the pieces

01:05:02.440 of the

01:05:02.780 baby out.

01:05:03.900 It was

01:05:04.220 all done

01:05:04.840 basically

01:05:06.500 blindly.

01:05:10.520 You know,

01:05:11.400 some doctors

01:05:12.600 today,

01:05:13.060 when they

01:05:13.300 do an

01:05:14.220 abortion,

01:05:14.720 will actually

01:05:15.260 have the

01:05:16.800 ultrasound

01:05:17.080 turned on

01:05:17.860 and actually

01:05:18.420 look at

01:05:19.160 the baby

01:05:21.660 in utero

01:05:22.240 as they're

01:05:22.760 making sure

01:05:23.880 that their

01:05:24.300 curette's

01:05:24.820 in the

01:05:25.020 right place

01:05:25.680 and watch

01:05:27.240 the baby

01:05:27.660 being destroyed

01:05:28.540 on

01:05:29.580 ultrasound.

01:05:33.480 Molecular

01:05:34.240 biology has

01:05:35.220 changed.

01:05:37.280 Our

01:05:37.620 knowledge

01:05:38.600 of cell

01:05:40.100 division,

01:05:41.620 our knowledge

01:05:42.180 of in-vitro

01:05:46.900 fertilization,

01:05:47.860 the things

01:05:48.180 we're able

01:05:49.300 to accomplish

01:05:49.980 that really

01:05:50.780 we're not

01:05:51.260 able to

01:05:51.660 do in

01:05:52.720 those days

01:05:53.360 to provide

01:05:55.380 a chance

01:05:57.240 for pregnancy

01:05:57.820 for someone

01:05:58.440 whose normal

01:06:00.140 avenues of

01:06:01.640 pregnancy

01:06:04.640 were blocked

01:06:05.760 because of

01:06:06.360 maybe tubal

01:06:07.540 disease or

01:06:09.020 other things.

01:06:10.260 Now,

01:06:11.380 we're able

01:06:12.020 to fertilize

01:06:14.320 those eggs

01:06:15.260 in-vitro,

01:06:16.620 we call it,

01:06:17.280 which means

01:06:17.820 we do

01:06:18.220 that in

01:06:18.600 a test

01:06:18.980 tube

01:06:19.320 or in

01:06:20.840 a laboratory

01:06:21.580 and transplant

01:06:23.000 those into

01:06:23.700 the uterus.

01:06:24.800 So we

01:06:25.640 overcome that

01:06:26.640 barrier to

01:06:28.860 conception for

01:06:29.660 a lot of

01:06:30.040 women.

01:06:32.680 Things that

01:06:33.360 we just

01:06:33.660 take for

01:06:34.060 granted

01:06:34.400 today,

01:06:35.520 there's so

01:06:35.900 many of

01:06:36.440 them that

01:06:37.020 we didn't

01:06:38.700 have in

01:06:39.200 73.

01:06:39.860 So the

01:06:40.180 laws that

01:06:42.360 were passed

01:06:43.040 in 1973,

01:06:44.360 even by

01:06:46.220 later

01:06:47.980 Supreme Court

01:06:49.680 cases have

01:06:50.680 basically

01:06:51.540 changed

01:06:53.420 the

01:06:54.620 landscape

01:06:56.380 of

01:06:56.760 abortion.

01:06:57.820 In

01:06:58.240 73,

01:06:59.520 the Supreme

01:07:00.720 Court allowed

01:07:01.800 the states

01:07:02.920 to control

01:07:04.260 abortion in

01:07:06.400 the third

01:07:06.780 trimester.

01:07:07.640 So it was

01:07:08.120 this breakdown

01:07:08.700 of the

01:07:09.260 third trimester,

01:07:10.940 the trimester

01:07:12.040 system.

01:07:12.580 And in

01:07:13.660 the third

01:07:13.980 trimester,

01:07:15.580 the states

01:07:16.560 were allowed

01:07:17.060 to control

01:07:17.840 or prohibit

01:07:19.040 abortion during

01:07:20.540 that time

01:07:22.600 period.

01:07:24.020 Later cases

01:07:24.780 actually,

01:07:26.600 it's Casey

01:07:26.920 versus Planned

01:07:27.680 Parenthood,

01:07:29.580 that

01:07:31.520 gestational age

01:07:33.460 was moved

01:07:33.920 back and

01:07:34.340 they used

01:07:34.720 the term

01:07:35.080 viability.

01:07:37.920 Now,

01:07:38.740 viability

01:07:39.440 means the

01:07:40.260 baby would

01:07:42.020 be able

01:07:42.400 to survive

01:07:43.120 outside the

01:07:43.840 womb.

01:07:44.140 We have

01:07:44.380 other

01:07:44.580 definitions

01:07:45.060 for viability,

01:07:46.600 but that

01:07:47.600 was the

01:07:47.920 one that

01:07:48.260 they were

01:07:48.640 looking at.

01:07:50.220 In other

01:07:50.560 words,

01:07:50.840 if the

01:07:51.120 baby were

01:07:51.520 able to

01:07:52.680 survive

01:07:53.520 outside of

01:07:54.300 the womb,

01:07:55.660 it was

01:07:56.200 considered,

01:07:56.900 quote,

01:07:57.620 viable.

01:08:00.320 That

01:08:00.880 was the

01:08:01.980 new

01:08:02.140 standard

01:08:02.740 by which

01:08:03.820 states

01:08:05.240 could

01:08:05.440 control it.

01:08:06.060 as time

01:08:08.040 went on

01:08:08.560 in the

01:08:08.800 19 years

01:08:09.480 between

01:08:09.960 Roe

01:08:11.480 versus Wade

01:08:12.520 and Casey,

01:08:15.300 that has

01:08:17.500 actually

01:08:17.840 changed.

01:08:20.700 Now,

01:08:21.960 the viability

01:08:22.760 is now the

01:08:23.440 standard.

01:08:24.160 In the

01:08:25.000 recent

01:08:25.500 court pleading

01:08:27.840 of

01:08:29.000 Dobbs

01:08:31.340 versus

01:08:31.700 Jackson,

01:08:33.300 that term

01:08:34.220 viability

01:08:34.820 was used

01:08:35.480 over and

01:08:35.960 over and

01:08:36.320 over by

01:08:36.860 both sides

01:08:38.060 in the

01:08:38.460 debate.

01:08:40.860 So,

01:08:41.620 even from a

01:08:43.100 legal standpoint,

01:08:44.380 a lot has

01:08:44.880 changed in

01:08:46.040 the 49

01:08:47.460 years now

01:08:48.340 since Roe

01:08:48.940 was passed.

01:08:49.620 Do you

01:08:51.200 think that

01:08:51.800 the law,

01:08:53.500 has the

01:08:53.960 law kept

01:08:54.340 up with

01:08:55.080 medicine in

01:08:56.120 terms of,

01:08:56.840 you know,

01:08:57.080 the amount

01:08:57.440 that we

01:08:58.100 understand

01:08:58.620 life now

01:08:59.460 in the

01:09:01.040 womb versus

01:09:02.680 the laws

01:09:03.360 that protect

01:09:03.960 it or

01:09:04.340 don't protect

01:09:05.040 it?

01:09:06.160 Is there

01:09:06.760 a disconnect?

01:09:08.260 Well,

01:09:08.440 the laws

01:09:08.800 have changed

01:09:09.520 since 73

01:09:11.040 and then

01:09:11.680 since 92

01:09:12.660 when the

01:09:14.640 Casey

01:09:15.500 versus

01:09:15.960 Planned

01:09:16.340 Parenthood

01:09:16.840 was

01:09:20.280 adjudicated.

01:09:23.280 And I

01:09:23.720 think that

01:09:24.340 the law

01:09:24.760 usually

01:09:25.320 lags

01:09:26.560 behind

01:09:27.000 medical

01:09:27.400 science.

01:09:29.420 And the

01:09:30.000 reason for

01:09:30.460 that is it

01:09:31.000 takes a

01:09:31.440 while,

01:09:31.880 I think,

01:09:32.180 for things

01:09:32.940 to filter

01:09:33.400 down.

01:09:34.180 But as

01:09:34.680 we're

01:09:35.000 entered the

01:09:37.600 21st century

01:09:38.440 now and

01:09:39.220 we understand

01:09:40.400 more about

01:09:41.280 the science,

01:09:44.540 you know,

01:09:44.720 we're not even

01:09:45.500 talking about

01:09:46.000 the morality

01:09:46.660 issue.

01:09:47.780 We're talking

01:09:48.020 about the

01:09:48.320 science,

01:09:49.400 how it's

01:09:49.880 progressed.

01:09:53.880 You know,

01:09:54.540 I suspect

01:09:55.120 that in

01:09:56.740 some ways

01:09:57.240 the laws

01:09:57.680 are going

01:09:58.020 to have

01:09:58.380 to change

01:09:59.760 to keep

01:10:00.260 pace with

01:10:00.780 the science.

01:10:03.180 And the

01:10:04.500 pro-choice

01:10:05.000 movement

01:10:05.740 often accuses

01:10:08.100 pro-life

01:10:09.160 advocates of

01:10:09.840 being anti-science.

01:10:11.720 Can you

01:10:12.600 respond to

01:10:13.440 that?

01:10:13.660 Well,

01:10:15.040 as someone

01:10:16.300 who's

01:10:16.580 pro-life,

01:10:17.960 you hear

01:10:18.980 the

01:10:19.420 accusations

01:10:21.180 that the

01:10:22.220 pro-life

01:10:22.620 movement is

01:10:23.160 anti-science.

01:10:25.620 And I

01:10:26.560 think when

01:10:27.200 you start

01:10:27.820 hearing name

01:10:29.360 calling,

01:10:30.200 you start

01:10:31.320 realizing

01:10:31.780 someone's

01:10:32.260 losing the

01:10:32.780 argument,

01:10:33.320 so they

01:10:33.560 have to

01:10:33.940 resort to

01:10:34.460 name

01:10:34.700 calling.

01:10:36.260 I think

01:10:36.780 science is

01:10:38.700 on the

01:10:39.000 side of

01:10:39.420 pro-life,

01:10:39.960 actually.

01:10:40.380 there was

01:10:42.900 a recent

01:10:43.400 paper from

01:10:45.600 ACOG,

01:10:46.720 the American

01:10:47.000 College of

01:10:47.580 OB-GYN,

01:10:49.060 that was

01:10:50.900 trying to

01:10:51.400 clarify the

01:10:52.440 abortion

01:10:54.720 terminology.

01:10:57.100 And I

01:10:57.320 think having

01:10:58.280 read that,

01:10:59.180 I think

01:10:59.580 the motive

01:11:02.060 behind that

01:11:02.780 is to

01:11:03.120 try to

01:11:03.640 de-stigmatize

01:11:04.800 abortion

01:11:05.960 and to

01:11:07.880 de-humanize

01:11:08.900 the

01:11:10.780 baby in

01:11:11.780 the womb.

01:11:13.300 And

01:11:13.600 a stigma

01:11:16.600 is already

01:11:18.340 attached to

01:11:18.920 abortion because

01:11:19.860 you can go

01:11:20.820 online and

01:11:21.540 see an

01:11:22.300 abortion being

01:11:23.000 done.

01:11:24.440 You can

01:11:25.240 see for

01:11:26.420 yourself by

01:11:27.600 real-time

01:11:28.060 ultrasound what's

01:11:28.800 going on inside

01:11:29.660 the womb.

01:11:30.300 So changing

01:11:31.640 the language is

01:11:32.520 not going to

01:11:33.200 change the

01:11:33.720 stigma.

01:11:34.160 In fact,

01:11:34.480 the opposite

01:11:35.580 is true.

01:11:36.260 The stigma

01:11:36.660 eventually will

01:11:37.600 make the

01:11:40.740 language have

01:11:41.860 to change.

01:11:44.380 And I

01:11:44.680 think that

01:11:45.260 as we

01:11:46.880 discussed the

01:11:47.840 science of

01:11:48.520 molecular biology,

01:11:50.060 the science of

01:11:50.800 genetics,

01:11:53.760 when I

01:11:55.320 learned genetics

01:11:56.640 in medical

01:11:57.260 school,

01:11:58.280 we were

01:11:58.820 basically

01:11:59.260 studying

01:12:00.400 Mendelian

01:12:01.060 genetics.

01:12:01.600 genetics,

01:12:01.720 it was

01:12:02.020 very basic.

01:12:05.480 And the

01:12:06.040 things now

01:12:06.760 that geneticists

01:12:07.820 talk about

01:12:08.520 would have

01:12:10.140 been totally

01:12:11.780 unknown to

01:12:13.760 someone in

01:12:14.880 medical school

01:12:15.620 in 1973 like

01:12:17.260 I was.

01:12:18.600 So there's

01:12:19.420 been tremendous

01:12:20.940 understanding of

01:12:22.280 what's happening

01:12:23.060 on the

01:12:25.580 molecular level.

01:12:26.440 and the

01:12:29.300 science

01:12:29.980 argument,

01:12:31.560 this paper

01:12:33.300 that ACOG

01:12:34.000 came out

01:12:34.480 with talking

01:12:35.000 about how

01:12:36.180 the four

01:12:36.540 chambers of

01:12:37.100 the heart

01:12:37.480 are not

01:12:37.960 really

01:12:38.760 purposeful,

01:12:42.020 I guess,

01:12:42.400 maybe,

01:12:42.740 but I'm

01:12:43.360 using that

01:12:43.900 word,

01:12:44.220 not theirs,

01:12:45.600 until 17

01:12:46.480 to 20

01:12:46.940 weeks,

01:12:47.920 when electron

01:12:48.620 microscopy

01:12:49.500 clearly shows

01:12:50.480 the four

01:12:52.060 chambers of

01:12:53.420 the heart

01:12:53.860 that are

01:12:54.240 visible at

01:12:54.900 six and a

01:12:55.340 half to

01:12:55.640 seven weeks.

01:12:57.540 So,

01:12:58.400 eventually,

01:13:01.160 the science

01:13:01.640 is going to

01:13:02.580 win out,

01:13:03.740 and science

01:13:04.200 is not a

01:13:05.360 static process,

01:13:06.400 it's changing

01:13:07.880 what we

01:13:12.660 knew in

01:13:13.600 1973 as

01:13:15.560 science,

01:13:16.320 some of

01:13:17.460 it's been

01:13:18.220 left behind,

01:13:22.480 and much of

01:13:23.120 it has been

01:13:23.480 learned since

01:13:24.120 then.

01:13:25.640 just so

01:13:26.560 that we're

01:13:27.360 not committing

01:13:29.000 the same

01:13:29.520 offense that

01:13:30.300 the pro-choice

01:13:31.140 movement often

01:13:31.900 commits,

01:13:33.160 in terms of

01:13:34.200 making baseless

01:13:35.760 claims about

01:13:37.040 what the

01:13:38.180 other side

01:13:38.720 believes or

01:13:40.480 thinks or

01:13:41.120 advocates for,

01:13:42.600 what would you

01:13:43.160 say is the

01:13:43.980 strongest

01:13:44.440 scientific

01:13:45.120 argument that

01:13:46.460 the pro-choice

01:13:47.560 movement uses,

01:13:48.740 and how do

01:13:49.660 you respond to

01:13:50.260 that?

01:13:50.480 I would

01:13:52.200 say I

01:13:52.540 think the

01:13:53.380 strongest

01:13:54.760 argument or

01:13:55.440 the strongest

01:13:55.980 statement that

01:13:59.160 the pro-choice

01:14:00.520 movement would

01:14:02.000 say would

01:14:02.700 be that

01:14:04.280 pregnancy is

01:14:06.480 going to

01:14:06.740 interfere with

01:14:07.580 your life

01:14:08.240 for a time

01:14:09.020 if you

01:14:11.320 have an

01:14:11.600 unwanted

01:14:11.940 or unplanned

01:14:12.680 pregnancy,

01:14:13.480 and that

01:14:16.280 certainly is

01:14:16.960 true.

01:14:17.320 It's going

01:14:17.740 to be,

01:14:18.500 it may be a

01:14:19.820 rough few

01:14:20.260 months.

01:14:20.700 You may

01:14:20.940 have to

01:14:21.740 overcome

01:14:22.940 family problems.

01:14:25.760 You may

01:14:26.180 have to

01:14:26.500 overcome some

01:14:27.420 serious social

01:14:28.420 hurdles,

01:14:30.820 but I

01:14:33.100 would say

01:14:33.580 that these

01:14:34.800 are all

01:14:35.300 very

01:14:35.620 short-sighted

01:14:36.400 and very

01:14:36.740 short-term

01:14:38.420 problems,

01:14:40.340 and that

01:14:41.680 eventually

01:14:42.340 what appears

01:14:44.300 to be a

01:14:45.160 short-term

01:14:47.620 problem

01:14:48.300 vanishes

01:14:50.480 when we

01:14:52.280 look at it

01:14:53.420 from a

01:14:53.920 long-term

01:14:54.840 perspective.

01:14:56.680 So,

01:14:57.560 probably that

01:14:58.360 would be the

01:14:58.940 thing, and

01:14:59.320 that's what

01:14:59.700 they promote

01:15:00.220 the most.

01:15:00.820 their counseling

01:15:02.280 is, you

01:15:03.440 have a

01:15:03.740 problem, we

01:15:04.260 have an

01:15:04.560 answer.

01:15:06.080 And the

01:15:09.680 question that

01:15:10.600 I would

01:15:11.040 throw back

01:15:11.680 is, is

01:15:14.440 the answer

01:15:15.180 you're

01:15:15.700 providing

01:15:16.380 creating

01:15:17.020 even

01:15:18.060 greater

01:15:18.940 problem?

01:15:20.500 What does

01:15:20.740 the pro-choice

01:15:21.400 movement

01:15:21.860 typically mean

01:15:23.760 when they,

01:15:25.580 I mean,

01:15:25.940 so, I mean,

01:15:26.680 accusations are

01:15:27.380 thrown all over

01:15:27.860 the place, but

01:15:28.960 what are they

01:15:29.420 even talking

01:15:30.220 about when

01:15:30.660 they say

01:15:31.000 that the

01:15:31.320 pro-life

01:15:31.660 movement is

01:15:32.140 anti-science?

01:15:33.460 Do you

01:15:33.660 know?

01:15:34.740 Or is it

01:15:35.360 just an

01:15:35.700 accusation?

01:15:37.440 Yeah, as

01:15:37.900 the pro-life

01:15:39.480 movement is

01:15:41.380 often characterized

01:15:42.300 by those that

01:15:44.620 support abortion

01:15:45.340 as being

01:15:45.880 anti-science.

01:15:48.600 Science is

01:15:49.320 not static.

01:15:50.040 it's

01:15:53.300 almost as

01:15:54.280 if

01:15:54.540 it's

01:15:55.600 used as

01:15:56.000 a barrier

01:15:56.580 to

01:15:57.140 shield,

01:15:58.300 protect

01:15:58.680 you from

01:15:59.300 debate.

01:16:01.480 Science is

01:16:02.420 something that

01:16:04.160 has changed.

01:16:05.320 I've talked

01:16:06.240 about the

01:16:06.860 change in

01:16:07.740 science or

01:16:08.500 what is

01:16:08.880 known to

01:16:09.760 medical science

01:16:10.500 over the

01:16:10.900 past 49

01:16:11.780 years.

01:16:13.920 Science is

01:16:14.360 ever-evolving.

01:16:15.260 science is

01:16:17.040 not static.

01:16:21.580 We learn

01:16:22.540 things that

01:16:24.500 we thought

01:16:26.380 were true

01:16:26.900 49 years

01:16:28.220 ago that

01:16:28.700 are not,

01:16:29.200 and we

01:16:29.700 learn new

01:16:31.120 things that

01:16:31.920 are true

01:16:33.140 that we

01:16:33.660 didn't know

01:16:34.120 49 years

01:16:34.980 ago.

01:16:35.360 to

01:16:40.300 accuse

01:16:43.340 someone of

01:16:45.240 being

01:16:45.540 anti-science

01:16:46.520 is a way

01:16:47.200 of,

01:16:48.340 I think,

01:16:50.260 indirectly

01:16:50.820 saying that

01:16:52.280 they are

01:16:53.660 trying to

01:16:54.940 promote a

01:16:55.820 moral or

01:16:57.720 a religious

01:17:00.320 philosophical

01:17:01.380 view over

01:17:02.860 science.

01:17:03.560 And somehow

01:17:04.080 in our

01:17:04.700 secular

01:17:05.000 society that

01:17:05.860 is accepted

01:17:06.540 as a

01:17:07.720 bona fide

01:17:08.640 complaint,

01:17:09.640 I don't

01:17:10.260 think that's

01:17:11.040 true.

01:17:14.480 And I

01:17:15.400 think that

01:17:15.960 those of

01:17:17.240 us who

01:17:17.520 are pro-life

01:17:18.260 are very

01:17:20.760 much on

01:17:21.220 the leading

01:17:21.560 edge of

01:17:22.040 science.

01:17:22.580 We want

01:17:22.960 to know

01:17:23.420 what's

01:17:24.380 happening at

01:17:24.940 conception.

01:17:26.380 I think

01:17:27.040 the more

01:17:27.400 and more

01:17:27.660 we learn

01:17:28.260 about

01:17:28.680 when life

01:17:31.720 begins,

01:17:32.660 the more

01:17:33.520 science

01:17:33.900 shines,

01:17:34.340 a light

01:17:34.800 on pro-life

01:17:36.280 movement

01:17:37.000 favorably,

01:17:39.020 I think.

01:17:40.260 Pro-choice

01:17:40.920 advocates

01:17:41.860 often accuse

01:17:42.480 pro-life

01:17:42.940 advocates

01:17:43.300 of being

01:17:43.760 anti-woman.

01:17:45.960 Can you

01:17:46.800 address that?

01:17:47.880 Yeah,

01:17:48.180 a pro-life

01:17:50.460 advocate is

01:17:51.540 accused of

01:17:53.080 being anti-woman.

01:17:54.820 Again,

01:17:56.500 we resort

01:17:58.920 to name

01:17:59.420 calling because

01:18:00.300 we don't

01:18:01.740 sometimes want

01:18:02.640 to appreciate

01:18:03.140 what's

01:18:03.640 really the

01:18:05.500 truth.

01:18:07.040 I've

01:18:07.320 devoted my

01:18:08.540 life to

01:18:09.700 a practice

01:18:11.600 of medicine

01:18:12.180 that's solely

01:18:13.000 devoted to

01:18:13.640 women.

01:18:16.580 And I

01:18:17.580 hear their

01:18:18.640 concerns

01:18:19.300 and I've

01:18:22.420 watched the

01:18:23.140 traumas of

01:18:23.860 their lives

01:18:25.080 as in

01:18:28.320 the case

01:18:28.960 of abortion

01:18:29.580 lived with

01:18:34.120 guilt and

01:18:35.600 pain and

01:18:36.200 suffering,

01:18:37.200 the depression,

01:18:38.320 many times

01:18:39.080 drug use,

01:18:42.060 alcohol abuse

01:18:43.060 that can so

01:18:45.780 often accompany

01:18:46.580 that.

01:18:46.960 and I

01:18:49.880 don't

01:18:50.200 think it's

01:18:51.680 anti-woman

01:18:52.400 to want

01:18:53.180 to prevent

01:18:53.860 someone

01:18:55.140 having to

01:18:56.200 go through

01:18:59.100 that kind

01:18:59.600 of suffering.

01:19:03.320 And I

01:19:04.300 know the

01:19:04.940 traumas

01:19:05.800 that often

01:19:06.940 accompany

01:19:07.820 the spiritual

01:19:11.020 wounds that

01:19:11.720 occur

01:19:12.120 after an

01:19:13.660 abortion

01:19:14.020 that the

01:19:16.720 pro-life

01:19:17.240 movement is

01:19:18.100 actually trying

01:19:18.740 to prevent.

01:19:20.700 So I

01:19:23.660 don't

01:19:23.960 think that

01:19:26.700 it's fair

01:19:27.260 to call

01:19:28.000 someone who

01:19:29.260 is a

01:19:31.140 pro-life

01:19:32.860 advocate as

01:19:33.760 being anti-woman

01:19:34.820 simply because

01:19:37.020 we want to

01:19:37.740 provide a

01:19:39.560 balanced,

01:19:40.640 at least a

01:19:41.480 balanced

01:19:41.940 approach to

01:19:43.600 a decision

01:19:44.200 that's

01:19:44.540 possibly

01:19:45.240 life-altering.

01:19:47.220 You know,

01:19:47.380 today's

01:19:47.960 medicine we

01:19:49.120 talk a lot

01:19:49.680 about informed

01:19:50.380 consent.

01:19:51.380 And informed

01:19:51.860 consent is

01:19:52.560 what a

01:19:53.460 patient basically

01:19:54.780 agrees the

01:19:55.740 educational process

01:19:56.800 that a

01:19:57.420 patient goes

01:19:58.020 through before

01:19:58.520 they consent

01:19:59.160 to surgery

01:20:00.240 or a

01:20:00.680 medical

01:20:00.940 procedure.

01:20:02.640 And I

01:20:04.020 think that

01:20:04.500 before an

01:20:06.560 abortion

01:20:06.900 particularly,

01:20:08.000 informed

01:20:08.320 consent

01:20:08.840 is

01:20:10.880 necessary.

01:20:11.460 and I

01:20:13.680 think a

01:20:14.360 pro-life

01:20:14.780 advocate is

01:20:16.400 just simply

01:20:17.100 asking that

01:20:18.920 full informed

01:20:20.840 consent be

01:20:21.900 given to a

01:20:23.440 woman before

01:20:24.000 she makes

01:20:24.560 this decision.

01:20:26.700 And that

01:20:27.360 would probably

01:20:27.960 include

01:20:29.160 ultrasound,

01:20:32.140 show them

01:20:32.900 what's

01:20:33.460 happening,

01:20:34.100 and a full

01:20:35.060 disclosure of

01:20:36.040 what may

01:20:36.860 happen after

01:20:37.540 an abortion.

01:20:38.060 There are

01:20:41.340 several

01:20:42.100 physical

01:20:42.800 things that

01:20:43.600 can happen

01:20:44.240 after an

01:20:44.720 abortion,

01:20:47.340 particularly

01:20:48.840 after multiple

01:20:49.600 abortions,

01:20:50.440 future

01:20:50.840 pregnancies

01:20:51.620 resorting to

01:20:54.280 future

01:20:56.500 pregnancies

01:20:57.680 that can

01:20:59.260 end in

01:21:00.180 an incompetent

01:21:00.960 cervix where

01:21:01.600 the baby

01:21:03.300 delivers early

01:21:04.300 because the

01:21:05.000 cervix dilates

01:21:06.000 too soon.

01:21:06.660 that's been

01:21:07.840 shown to

01:21:08.760 occur after

01:21:09.460 abortion.

01:21:11.620 There's,

01:21:12.380 it's debated,

01:21:14.420 but I think

01:21:15.000 there's some

01:21:16.320 really good

01:21:17.440 possibility or

01:21:18.740 really good

01:21:19.640 information

01:21:20.640 that

01:21:21.860 particularly

01:21:23.340 repeated

01:21:23.860 abortions that

01:21:24.720 are not

01:21:25.140 followed by

01:21:26.160 a normal

01:21:26.740 full-term

01:21:27.240 pregnancy

01:21:27.740 within

01:21:28.220 seven to

01:21:29.660 ten years

01:21:30.240 can increase

01:21:31.320 a woman's

01:21:31.780 chance for

01:21:32.240 breast cancer.

01:21:32.940 and you

01:21:34.620 hear this

01:21:35.100 debated

01:21:35.540 some and

01:21:37.120 pro-life

01:21:38.340 advocates are

01:21:39.200 accused of

01:21:41.000 fear-mongering

01:21:42.280 and other

01:21:43.060 things about

01:21:43.900 like that.

01:21:45.220 And I think

01:21:46.460 if we had an

01:21:47.420 honest debate,

01:21:48.540 I think you

01:21:49.580 would find a

01:21:50.580 pro-life

01:21:51.100 advocate, I

01:21:52.060 know at least

01:21:52.500 for me

01:21:52.800 personally, I

01:21:53.540 want to hear

01:21:55.180 both sides of

01:21:55.920 any argument.

01:21:57.320 I mean, like I

01:21:57.860 said, I've said

01:21:58.680 before, I was

01:22:00.940 on the other

01:22:01.380 side of the

01:22:02.560 argument on

01:22:03.460 pro-choice.

01:22:05.400 I was a

01:22:06.260 pro-choice

01:22:06.720 advocate for

01:22:07.380 years, and

01:22:09.440 I was willing

01:22:10.520 to listen to

01:22:11.080 the other

01:22:11.380 side, and I

01:22:12.160 would ask

01:22:12.880 anyone who

01:22:14.860 is a

01:22:15.720 pro-choice

01:22:16.620 or favors

01:22:17.800 abortion or

01:22:18.820 abortion

01:22:19.280 rights to

01:22:21.200 at least

01:22:21.740 consider

01:22:22.500 listening to

01:22:26.020 a rational

01:22:27.220 presentation of

01:22:28.880 those that

01:22:29.400 might disagree

01:22:30.000 with them.

01:22:31.600 I'd like to

01:22:31.960 go into the

01:22:33.200 turning point

01:22:33.720 for you one

01:22:35.120 more time,

01:22:35.860 specifically the

01:22:37.300 more kind of

01:22:37.700 emotional turning

01:22:38.420 point when you

01:22:39.420 saw doctors

01:22:40.440 fighting to

01:22:41.000 save the life

01:22:41.480 of your second

01:22:41.920 son, your

01:22:42.260 third child.

01:22:44.440 Can you go

01:22:45.860 into that story

01:22:46.540 in a little bit

01:22:47.000 more depth?

01:22:48.400 Well, I had

01:22:49.280 come to the

01:22:51.260 conclusion during

01:22:53.380 my residency

01:22:54.220 that I

01:22:56.880 couldn't do

01:22:57.240 abortions

01:22:57.740 anymore, but

01:22:58.480 I was still

01:22:59.180 struggling with

01:23:01.160 the philosophical

01:23:02.180 debate about

01:23:03.320 unplanned

01:23:04.700 pregnancies and

01:23:05.720 whether or not

01:23:06.520 abortion, at

01:23:09.040 least I

01:23:09.500 couldn't do

01:23:09.900 them, but

01:23:10.360 someone else

01:23:11.200 might do

01:23:12.460 them.

01:23:12.780 So again,

01:23:13.280 that piece

01:23:14.740 of moral

01:23:15.200 relativism came

01:23:16.380 in, I guess,

01:23:17.120 but philosophically

01:23:19.660 I was still

01:23:21.180 kind of in

01:23:22.100 the wilderness

01:23:25.100 a bit on

01:23:25.660 that.

01:23:26.940 Well, I

01:23:27.620 came to

01:23:28.780 conflict, I

01:23:31.600 guess, or

01:23:33.620 it came to

01:23:34.660 a realization

01:23:35.140 to me, at

01:23:36.060 least, in

01:23:37.980 about five

01:23:39.980 years later,

01:23:41.480 I was in

01:23:42.180 private practice

01:23:42.980 and my

01:23:47.020 wife was

01:23:47.460 pregnant with

01:23:47.980 our third

01:23:48.420 child.

01:23:48.900 child, and

01:23:50.540 at 26

01:23:52.040 weeks, we

01:23:53.480 had gone

01:23:54.960 out to

01:23:55.260 eat and

01:23:55.780 had come

01:23:56.560 home and

01:23:57.300 she told

01:23:58.540 me, she

01:23:58.800 said, I

01:23:59.120 feel a lot

01:23:59.560 of pressure.

01:24:00.560 This is the

01:24:01.200 way I felt

01:24:01.700 when I was

01:24:02.520 full-term

01:24:04.080 pregnant with

01:24:04.700 the other

01:24:05.040 two.

01:24:06.680 So I

01:24:07.460 had some

01:24:08.860 exam gloves

01:24:09.560 and I

01:24:09.860 checked

01:24:10.120 her and

01:24:10.460 she was

01:24:10.700 four

01:24:10.960 centimeters

01:24:11.360 dilated.

01:24:13.320 She was

01:24:13.840 only 26

01:24:14.460 weeks.

01:24:17.900 In 1982,

01:24:19.320 that was

01:24:19.680 like a

01:24:22.460 death

01:24:22.660 sentence.

01:24:26.940 So I

01:24:29.180 was

01:24:29.340 and I

01:24:29.920 would

01:24:30.020 call that

01:24:30.480 night, but

01:24:30.980 one of my

01:24:31.600 partners was

01:24:32.180 and I

01:24:32.420 called him

01:24:32.860 and I

01:24:33.080 said, my

01:24:33.540 wife's

01:24:33.940 free-term

01:24:34.380 labor.

01:24:35.420 I called

01:24:36.060 my mother

01:24:36.500 and said,

01:24:37.200 can you

01:24:38.080 keep the

01:24:38.400 other two

01:24:38.720 kids?

01:24:40.620 Paulette's

01:24:41.100 in

01:24:41.280 free-term

01:24:41.920 labor.

01:24:43.600 We've

01:24:44.040 got to

01:24:44.220 go to

01:24:44.380 the

01:24:44.460 hospital.

01:24:47.860 So I

01:24:49.220 got her

01:24:49.480 in the

01:24:49.680 car and

01:24:50.100 we flew

01:24:50.860 to the

01:24:51.120 hospital.

01:24:52.660 She

01:24:53.100 started an

01:24:54.020 IV.

01:24:56.940 We

01:24:57.420 tried to

01:24:58.920 suppress

01:24:59.460 her

01:24:59.660 labor.

01:25:02.900 It was

01:25:03.580 about

01:25:04.060 9 or

01:25:04.660 10 o'clock

01:25:05.120 at night.

01:25:05.580 We tried

01:25:05.900 all night

01:25:06.380 long to

01:25:06.860 suppress

01:25:07.220 labor.

01:25:09.000 When

01:25:09.440 it was

01:25:11.000 clear we

01:25:11.460 were not

01:25:11.780 going to

01:25:12.060 be

01:25:12.220 successful,

01:25:12.940 she was

01:25:13.200 too far

01:25:13.800 into the

01:25:15.560 labor

01:25:15.760 process.

01:25:18.980 We

01:25:19.420 consulted

01:25:19.900 with one

01:25:20.300 of our

01:25:20.580 pediatric

01:25:21.120 friends.

01:25:22.540 The choice

01:25:23.160 was whether

01:25:23.560 to go to

01:25:24.080 the city

01:25:24.980 of Memphis

01:25:25.340 hospital or

01:25:26.240 to the

01:25:26.640 Baptist

01:25:26.860 hospital.

01:25:29.040 Because we

01:25:29.620 didn't have a

01:25:30.120 NICU unit at

01:25:30.920 that time.

01:25:31.540 We had to

01:25:32.180 go to

01:25:32.420 Memphis.

01:25:34.080 And he

01:25:34.440 said, oh,

01:25:34.960 they'll take

01:25:35.320 better care of

01:25:36.000 you at

01:25:36.300 Baptist

01:25:36.680 hospital,

01:25:37.780 private

01:25:38.080 hospital.

01:25:39.120 That baby's

01:25:39.660 not going to

01:25:40.100 survive anyway.

01:25:41.180 That was his

01:25:41.700 comment.

01:25:42.040 And he

01:25:43.800 went there

01:25:47.100 and flew

01:25:49.000 over in

01:25:49.440 an ambulance.

01:25:51.740 And

01:25:51.820 she was

01:25:55.800 almost ready

01:25:56.620 to deliver

01:25:57.060 when we

01:25:57.360 got there.

01:25:57.900 And we

01:25:58.040 went back

01:25:58.840 to the

01:25:59.120 delivery

01:25:59.380 room.

01:26:00.740 Matthew

01:26:01.260 was born.

01:26:02.900 He weighed

01:26:03.220 two pounds

01:26:03.820 and three

01:26:04.220 ounces,

01:26:04.600 980

01:26:05.340 grams

01:26:05.960 in birth,

01:26:07.540 and lost

01:26:09.900 over the

01:26:11.120 course of

01:26:11.460 the next

01:26:11.820 couple of

01:26:12.780 weeks,

01:26:13.280 lost down

01:26:13.780 to one

01:26:14.120 pound,

01:26:14.480 11 ounces.

01:26:16.980 I don't

01:26:17.580 know if

01:26:17.800 you've ever

01:26:18.160 seen a

01:26:18.660 baby that

01:26:20.060 premature,

01:26:21.340 but the

01:26:23.240 skin is

01:26:23.920 almost

01:26:24.240 translucent,

01:26:25.500 and he

01:26:27.680 was lost

01:26:28.240 in that

01:26:28.560 big incubator.

01:26:29.400 I had

01:26:34.940 struggled with

01:26:35.600 this idea

01:26:36.380 of

01:26:37.360 being

01:26:39.960 pro-choice,

01:26:41.500 and

01:26:41.760 I knew I

01:26:44.500 couldn't do

01:26:44.820 abortions

01:26:45.280 anymore,

01:26:45.660 but

01:26:45.980 in the

01:26:48.320 second

01:26:48.540 trimester,

01:26:49.220 and this

01:26:49.640 was in the

01:26:50.180 second

01:26:50.400 trimester.

01:26:51.140 It was not

01:26:51.480 even in the

01:26:51.940 third

01:26:52.120 trimester.

01:26:54.140 Abortions were

01:26:54.700 being performed

01:26:55.340 in the second

01:26:55.880 trimester,

01:26:56.540 not in

01:26:58.740 that facility,

01:26:59.720 but it

01:27:01.340 was legal

01:27:02.500 in some

01:27:03.040 places in

01:27:03.840 the United

01:27:04.180 States.

01:27:05.520 They were

01:27:05.920 destroying

01:27:06.400 babies that

01:27:07.360 size.

01:27:09.900 And,

01:27:10.300 you know,

01:27:12.640 we would

01:27:13.000 go back

01:27:13.540 and forth

01:27:13.900 to Memphis

01:27:14.440 and check

01:27:15.440 on Matthew

01:27:17.120 nearly every

01:27:18.080 day for

01:27:19.560 about two

01:27:20.480 months.

01:27:23.000 And it

01:27:25.360 was more

01:27:26.000 and more

01:27:26.280 a struggle

01:27:26.740 for me

01:27:27.220 to

01:27:27.700 comprehend

01:27:30.960 how

01:27:31.820 babies,

01:27:34.200 his

01:27:34.440 gestational

01:27:35.400 age could

01:27:35.960 be destroyed.

01:27:38.680 And I

01:27:39.260 think that's

01:27:39.620 when I

01:27:39.860 made the

01:27:40.220 transition

01:27:40.780 that,

01:27:42.020 no,

01:27:42.520 it's not

01:27:43.160 just me

01:27:43.960 being,

01:27:46.820 not being

01:27:48.080 able to do

01:27:48.560 them anymore,

01:27:49.420 but I

01:27:51.400 became

01:27:52.120 morally,

01:27:54.120 developed a

01:27:54.960 moral rejection

01:27:55.980 notion that

01:27:57.460 abortion was

01:27:59.440 the decision

01:28:03.860 to abort

01:28:04.500 a baby

01:28:04.900 was not

01:28:05.540 a moral

01:28:07.900 decision.

01:28:08.360 It was a

01:28:08.960 moral decision.

01:28:11.420 And

01:28:11.620 fortunately,

01:28:13.240 Matthew did

01:28:13.700 well.

01:28:14.080 graduated from

01:28:17.200 that NICU

01:28:17.900 and he

01:28:19.120 overcame

01:28:22.800 several

01:28:23.180 milestones.

01:28:23.940 One,

01:28:26.100 the statistics

01:28:26.820 in those

01:28:27.200 days was

01:28:27.600 about 25%

01:28:28.580 survival,

01:28:30.020 but he

01:28:30.260 survived.

01:28:31.540 And about

01:28:32.260 25% of

01:28:33.160 those babies

01:28:33.860 had severe

01:28:34.820 neurological

01:28:35.400 defects and

01:28:36.600 cognitive

01:28:37.980 problems,

01:28:40.240 cerebral

01:28:41.020 palsy,

01:28:41.680 those kind

01:28:42.040 of things.

01:28:43.680 Matthew didn't

01:28:44.220 have any

01:28:44.600 of that.

01:28:45.840 And he's

01:28:46.660 graduated with

01:28:47.860 a degree in

01:28:48.300 computer science

01:28:49.100 and is a very

01:28:50.920 hardworking IT

01:28:52.340 specialist today.

01:28:54.280 We have a lot

01:28:55.360 to be thankful

01:28:55.900 for from that

01:28:56.780 standpoint.

01:28:57.980 But it was a

01:28:58.500 turning point in

01:28:59.120 my life, I think,

01:29:00.320 that I realized

01:29:02.400 that it was

01:29:05.880 not only that I

01:29:06.540 couldn't do

01:29:06.900 them anymore,

01:29:07.740 but I was

01:29:09.440 morally opposed

01:29:10.580 to abortion.

01:29:16.060 Thank you.

01:29:16.920 Thank you for

01:29:17.560 sharing that

01:29:18.060 story in more

01:29:18.680 depth.

01:29:21.380 What are the

01:29:22.220 risks of

01:29:23.120 abortion for

01:29:23.940 women?

01:29:24.640 Because,

01:29:24.940 you know,

01:29:25.960 everyone talks

01:29:26.700 about, like,

01:29:28.240 the risks of

01:29:29.200 women not

01:29:30.300 getting abortions,

01:29:31.440 you know?

01:29:31.820 But you

01:29:33.040 almost never

01:29:33.540 hear about,

01:29:34.200 well, what are

01:29:34.540 the risks of

01:29:35.120 an abortion?

01:29:35.780 Well, we

01:29:37.720 often in the

01:29:38.380 debate talk

01:29:39.160 about the

01:29:40.420 risk of an

01:29:42.740 abortion.

01:29:43.760 There are the

01:29:44.500 immediate physical

01:29:45.640 risks during the

01:29:46.800 procedure itself.

01:29:49.100 When the

01:29:49.940 cervix is

01:29:50.500 dilated,

01:29:52.720 there's a

01:29:53.820 possibility of

01:29:54.700 perforating the

01:29:55.400 uterus.

01:29:56.120 The uterus,

01:29:57.300 that's in a

01:29:58.980 pregnant state,

01:29:59.720 is quite soft

01:30:00.960 and

01:30:01.820 passing the

01:30:02.880 curette or

01:30:04.340 sound through

01:30:06.080 the wall of

01:30:06.720 the uterus is

01:30:07.440 a very real

01:30:08.520 risk.

01:30:09.120 And if that

01:30:09.960 happens, then

01:30:10.700 there's all

01:30:12.640 sorts of

01:30:13.120 problems that

01:30:13.780 you can get

01:30:14.240 into.

01:30:14.760 Bleeding,

01:30:17.820 you can,

01:30:18.880 if you don't

01:30:19.260 recognize it,

01:30:20.180 you can

01:30:20.580 aspirate.

01:30:22.100 When you

01:30:22.420 turn on the

01:30:23.100 suction, you

01:30:24.520 can pull

01:30:25.300 intestines into

01:30:26.280 the uterus,

01:30:28.180 all manner of

01:30:30.520 severe problems

01:30:31.560 can happen.

01:30:32.780 If the

01:30:33.080 uterus, and a

01:30:34.060 second problem

01:30:34.720 would be if the

01:30:35.420 uterus isn't

01:30:36.080 completely emptied,

01:30:38.020 if you leave

01:30:38.720 behind fetal

01:30:39.660 parts or

01:30:40.400 fetal tissue,

01:30:42.800 placental tissue,

01:30:45.200 membranes,

01:30:46.760 bleeding,

01:30:49.660 infection,

01:30:50.740 sometimes severe,

01:30:54.120 you know,

01:30:54.320 one of the

01:30:54.620 things that's

01:30:55.080 hard to

01:30:55.520 track is

01:30:56.320 the post-abortion

01:30:58.300 complications,

01:31:00.520 because many

01:31:01.900 times these are

01:31:02.620 not reported.

01:31:03.560 If a patient

01:31:04.480 comes to the

01:31:05.060 emergency room

01:31:05.740 with hemorrhage,

01:31:06.420 and we

01:31:08.600 took care of

01:31:09.180 many of

01:31:09.520 these that

01:31:10.040 had an

01:31:12.200 abortion or

01:31:13.700 attempted

01:31:14.100 abortion somewhere

01:31:14.900 else,

01:31:16.260 they would

01:31:16.940 come in

01:31:17.320 running fever,

01:31:18.460 bleeding,

01:31:19.940 we might

01:31:21.700 code that

01:31:22.220 out as

01:31:22.840 something

01:31:24.800 besides

01:31:25.300 actually an

01:31:26.000 abortion

01:31:26.340 complication.

01:31:27.860 So it

01:31:28.920 may not

01:31:29.480 even be

01:31:30.000 ever

01:31:30.920 registered as

01:31:31.960 a complication.

01:31:33.240 So many

01:31:34.320 of the

01:31:34.620 complications of

01:31:35.400 abortion go

01:31:36.020 unrecognized.

01:31:37.180 Even maternal

01:31:37.760 deaths

01:31:38.240 sometimes are

01:31:42.320 not reported

01:31:42.880 as abortion

01:31:43.440 complications.

01:31:44.580 For instance,

01:31:45.340 if a

01:31:46.340 woman has

01:31:48.780 a uterine

01:31:49.720 perforation that

01:31:50.580 goes unrecognized

01:31:51.720 and she's

01:31:52.200 admitted to

01:31:52.640 an emergency

01:31:53.080 room somewhere

01:31:53.700 else with

01:31:55.280 catastrophic

01:31:57.860 hemorrhage,

01:32:01.320 it might be

01:32:02.080 thought to be

01:32:03.200 unrelated to

01:32:04.060 the abortion.

01:32:05.760 if she didn't

01:32:06.600 mention that

01:32:07.380 she had

01:32:07.640 had an

01:32:07.920 abortion and

01:32:09.620 might be

01:32:10.660 diagnosed as

01:32:12.280 some other

01:32:12.620 thing or

01:32:13.180 signed off as

01:32:13.860 some other

01:32:14.280 reason for

01:32:15.520 death.

01:32:17.280 Even the

01:32:18.000 number of

01:32:18.420 abortions that

01:32:19.220 are performed,

01:32:22.960 we have only a

01:32:23.980 vague idea of

01:32:24.920 that because

01:32:25.520 many states

01:32:26.280 don't, are

01:32:27.740 not required by

01:32:28.460 the CDC to

01:32:29.460 report the

01:32:30.380 actual number

01:32:30.980 of abortions.

01:32:31.720 and it's

01:32:33.220 not to the

01:32:34.040 abortion

01:32:35.080 facilities'

01:32:35.940 best interest

01:32:37.800 to report

01:32:38.480 all of their

01:32:39.840 complications.

01:32:40.980 So many

01:32:42.360 times those

01:32:43.080 go unreported.

01:32:44.720 so there's

01:32:49.040 hemorrhage,

01:32:52.540 there's

01:32:53.620 surgical

01:32:57.380 damage during

01:32:58.420 a surgical

01:32:58.900 abortion.

01:33:00.280 We haven't

01:33:00.620 even touched

01:33:01.140 on,

01:33:03.840 yeah, we

01:33:04.160 haven't really

01:33:04.640 talked about

01:33:07.040 medication-induced

01:33:10.280 abortion, and

01:33:13.440 that's come

01:33:14.260 about really

01:33:14.980 since I was

01:33:16.880 doing abortions.

01:33:18.500 It involves

01:33:19.520 taking a

01:33:22.100 drug called

01:33:23.280 Mifeprex,

01:33:24.080 which is an

01:33:25.720 anti-progesterone.

01:33:29.840 Progesterone is a

01:33:30.520 very important

01:33:31.120 hormone in early

01:33:32.120 pregnancy, and

01:33:33.100 basically the

01:33:34.700 drug

01:33:36.560 saturates

01:33:40.580 the receptors

01:33:41.260 and doesn't

01:33:42.180 allow progesterone

01:33:43.060 to have its

01:33:43.400 effect, basically

01:33:44.180 starves the

01:33:45.340 baby of

01:33:45.900 its ability

01:33:48.480 to absorb

01:33:49.460 progesterone,

01:33:50.920 and usually

01:33:53.480 results, prior

01:33:54.940 to about seven

01:33:55.620 weeks, is

01:33:56.180 about 90%

01:33:57.640 effective by

01:33:58.340 itself.

01:33:59.840 So there

01:34:02.040 is a cocktail

01:34:02.580 now that

01:34:03.820 adds a

01:34:04.880 prostaglandin

01:34:06.220 cytotec,

01:34:08.480 which is

01:34:09.000 taken 24,

01:34:10.400 48 hours

01:34:11.000 later, to

01:34:12.460 cause uterine

01:34:13.020 contractions to

01:34:13.940 expel the

01:34:14.860 dead baby.

01:34:17.120 This is

01:34:17.480 gaining

01:34:17.680 popularity, and

01:34:18.740 during the

01:34:19.280 pandemic, it

01:34:19.940 was when

01:34:21.460 there was a

01:34:22.100 problem with

01:34:23.400 access to

01:34:26.420 abortion

01:34:26.780 clinics, it

01:34:28.040 was used

01:34:29.860 more frequently,

01:34:30.780 and I

01:34:30.960 think

01:34:31.200 various

01:34:32.960 reported

01:34:33.500 that

01:34:35.140 variously

01:34:35.780 reported

01:34:36.160 about 25%

01:34:39.000 of abortions

01:34:40.240 now are

01:34:40.760 medication

01:34:41.320 abortions.

01:34:42.060 So if

01:34:43.040 you take

01:34:43.320 the medication

01:34:44.000 prior to

01:34:45.220 about seven

01:34:45.820 weeks, it's

01:34:46.440 probably about

01:34:47.100 90%

01:34:48.200 effective, and

01:34:49.480 that is 90%

01:34:51.100 effective that

01:34:51.820 it will cause

01:34:53.380 a complete

01:34:54.000 expulsion of

01:34:57.500 the whole

01:34:57.940 pregnancy.

01:34:58.500 other 10%

01:35:01.720 are going to

01:35:02.300 wind up

01:35:02.700 having to

01:35:03.100 go through

01:35:03.440 the surgical

01:35:04.040 procedure of

01:35:05.740 removing the

01:35:06.480 products that

01:35:07.300 we talked

01:35:07.740 about earlier

01:35:08.400 anyway.

01:35:10.700 The further

01:35:11.300 along you

01:35:11.800 get, the

01:35:12.380 higher the

01:35:12.780 percentage of

01:35:13.460 failure it

01:35:14.140 is, not to

01:35:15.880 mention the

01:35:16.380 side effects of

01:35:17.120 the medication,

01:35:18.500 nausea, vomiting,

01:35:19.560 diarrhea, severe

01:35:20.480 cramping, heavy

01:35:21.920 bleeding,

01:35:24.040 hemorrhage,

01:35:24.600 sometimes requiring

01:35:25.500 hospitalization,

01:35:27.000 transfusion.

01:35:28.520 There have been

01:35:28.980 several deaths

01:35:29.720 associated with

01:35:30.760 the medication.

01:35:34.040 There's a push

01:35:34.780 to allow

01:35:37.560 these medications

01:35:39.720 to be

01:35:40.440 administered

01:35:41.740 without a

01:35:45.100 doctor's visit,

01:35:46.380 without an

01:35:46.860 ultrasound,

01:35:47.900 without a

01:35:48.280 doctor's visit.

01:35:49.880 And there are

01:35:50.820 several problems

01:35:51.580 with this.

01:35:52.220 I'll talk about

01:35:52.900 two or three

01:35:53.380 of them.

01:35:54.720 One is

01:35:55.280 if you don't

01:35:56.240 do an

01:35:56.500 ultrasound,

01:35:57.040 you don't

01:35:57.280 know whether

01:35:57.720 or not the

01:35:58.240 pregnancy is

01:35:58.860 in the

01:35:59.160 fallopian

01:35:59.580 tube, which

01:36:00.660 we call an

01:36:01.140 ectopic

01:36:01.560 pregnancy.

01:36:03.600 In an

01:36:04.140 ectopic

01:36:04.560 pregnancy, the

01:36:05.380 pregnancy actually

01:36:06.720 implants in the

01:36:07.900 fallopian tube

01:36:08.760 and not in the

01:36:09.860 uterus.

01:36:10.280 And it can't

01:36:10.980 grow much

01:36:11.580 beyond seven

01:36:12.220 or eight

01:36:12.500 weeks there.

01:36:13.820 It will

01:36:14.380 rupture the

01:36:14.920 tube, there

01:36:15.520 will be

01:36:15.700 internal

01:36:16.060 hemorrhage,

01:36:17.040 it can lead

01:36:17.560 to death.

01:36:19.320 Well, if the

01:36:19.760 pregnancy is in

01:36:20.400 the tube, the

01:36:20.940 patient may not

01:36:21.540 be aware of

01:36:22.120 this and take

01:36:23.640 the medication

01:36:24.600 if she doesn't

01:36:25.220 have an

01:36:25.500 ultrasound that

01:36:26.820 would rule

01:36:28.540 out an

01:36:29.120 ectopic

01:36:29.520 pregnancy, she

01:36:32.860 may bleed and

01:36:34.040 cramp and

01:36:34.620 think that she's

01:36:35.260 passed her

01:36:35.780 pregnancy when

01:36:36.800 in reality the

01:36:37.580 pregnancy is still

01:36:38.260 growing in the

01:36:38.840 fallopian tube and

01:36:40.640 she's unaware of

01:36:41.440 it and it could

01:36:42.740 rupture and lead

01:36:43.880 to death,

01:36:44.520 actually.

01:36:45.760 That's the first

01:36:46.700 problem.

01:36:47.220 The second

01:36:47.460 problem is the

01:36:48.760 issue of RH

01:36:50.340 sensitization.

01:36:51.160 medication, we

01:36:52.200 all know our

01:36:52.640 blood types, we

01:36:54.020 talk about your

01:36:54.720 blood type being

01:36:55.780 O positive or

01:36:56.840 O negative, A

01:36:58.440 positive, everybody's

01:36:59.540 familiar with that.

01:37:00.260 Well, the positive

01:37:01.260 or negative part of

01:37:02.280 that is called

01:37:03.140 the RH type.

01:37:08.900 Now, women who

01:37:09.700 are RH positive

01:37:10.680 are, as a rule,

01:37:14.320 not going to

01:37:15.000 form antibodies

01:37:16.240 against RH

01:37:17.120 positive blood

01:37:17.900 cells.

01:37:18.940 But a woman who's

01:37:19.660 RH negative, if

01:37:21.880 she has a

01:37:22.880 pregnancy that's

01:37:24.040 RH positive, the

01:37:26.340 baby's RH

01:37:27.220 positive blood

01:37:27.940 cells can get

01:37:28.680 into her

01:37:29.080 circulation and

01:37:30.680 stimulate an

01:37:32.080 antibody response.

01:37:33.320 And it's usually

01:37:34.040 not a problem in

01:37:35.960 that pregnancy, but

01:37:38.040 if she's

01:37:38.580 recognized RH

01:37:39.560 positive blood

01:37:40.380 cells and her

01:37:43.160 immune system

01:37:44.220 may in the

01:37:45.980 future recognize

01:37:47.300 an RH

01:37:49.220 positive baby

01:37:50.100 as a foreign

01:37:50.820 invader, so

01:37:52.540 to speak.

01:37:53.080 And those

01:37:53.920 antibodies cross

01:37:54.920 the placenta and

01:37:55.820 actually attack the

01:37:56.640 baby's red blood

01:37:57.340 cell.

01:37:57.860 So, with that as

01:37:59.200 a background, if a

01:38:00.680 woman has an

01:38:01.320 abortion or has

01:38:02.880 an abortion or has

01:38:04.620 a medication

01:38:06.260 induced abortion and

01:38:07.380 doesn't know her

01:38:07.960 blood type, and she

01:38:09.660 happens to be

01:38:10.120 RH negative, and

01:38:12.280 she successfully

01:38:13.080 aborts the baby, but

01:38:14.180 it's RH

01:38:14.640 positive, the

01:38:16.100 baby that she

01:38:17.680 aborted was RH

01:38:18.480 positive.

01:38:19.900 She very well

01:38:20.860 could form

01:38:21.460 antibodies and

01:38:23.180 have difficulty in

01:38:24.400 a future pregnancy

01:38:25.280 because she will

01:38:26.580 form antibodies

01:38:27.380 against the

01:38:28.240 baby's red blood

01:38:29.120 cells or can.

01:38:32.100 The antibodies

01:38:32.580 cross the

01:38:33.160 placenta and

01:38:33.820 start attacking

01:38:34.460 the baby's red

01:38:35.840 blood cells in

01:38:37.820 the uterus.

01:38:38.740 Now, this is in a

01:38:39.440 subsequent pregnancy.

01:38:41.400 That's when she

01:38:42.160 wants to be

01:38:42.740 pregnant.

01:38:43.080 This leads to a

01:38:46.940 condition called

01:38:48.120 erythroblastosis

01:38:49.260 fetalis, which

01:38:50.260 basically results in

01:38:52.200 a baby becoming

01:38:54.980 anemic and having

01:38:56.500 heart failure in

01:38:58.260 utero.

01:38:59.920 It has to be given

01:39:01.200 intrauterine

01:39:01.840 transfusions, which

01:39:02.840 can be very

01:39:03.360 dangerous.

01:39:05.160 And in years

01:39:06.140 past, before the

01:39:07.980 advent of rogam,

01:39:09.060 which is now given

01:39:10.600 in those situations,

01:39:11.720 if a woman is

01:39:15.180 pregnant and is

01:39:16.340 RH negative, she's

01:39:17.800 given rogam to

01:39:19.520 help basically

01:39:20.900 vacuum up all of

01:39:21.820 the baby's red

01:39:23.620 blood cells to

01:39:24.440 prevent potential

01:39:26.320 sensitization.

01:39:27.960 Or if she has an

01:39:29.140 abortion and she's

01:39:30.120 RH positive, she's

01:39:31.160 given rogam.

01:39:32.400 Excuse me, if she's

01:39:33.080 RH negative, she's

01:39:36.020 given rogam for

01:39:37.240 that purpose.

01:39:38.280 But if she takes

01:39:39.180 the medication and

01:39:40.520 she doesn't know

01:39:41.040 her blood type and

01:39:41.840 most of us don't

01:39:43.080 know her blood

01:39:43.600 type, there's a

01:39:47.060 possibility she will

01:39:48.400 have this problem in

01:39:52.020 a subsequent

01:39:52.440 pregnancy.

01:39:53.840 We don't see that

01:39:55.040 very often anymore,

01:39:56.620 this erythroblastosis

01:39:58.400 fetalis.

01:39:59.040 We don't see that

01:39:59.800 because of rogam and

01:40:01.780 how it's impacted so

01:40:03.960 many pregnancies in

01:40:06.240 RH negative women

01:40:07.180 over the years.

01:40:08.760 But I'm afraid we're

01:40:10.720 going to see a

01:40:11.420 resurgence of that if

01:40:12.640 we start relying on

01:40:14.620 medication-induced

01:40:16.220 abortions.

01:40:17.880 So those are a

01:40:19.380 couple of problems

01:40:20.500 that are facing us

01:40:22.080 as this becomes more

01:40:23.980 prevalent.

01:40:26.880 You know, we pass

01:40:27.580 off medication-induced

01:40:28.820 abortion or chemical

01:40:29.900 abortion is sometimes

01:40:31.060 called as more

01:40:32.700 private and less

01:40:36.700 invasive and all of

01:40:40.100 that.

01:40:40.520 And if the woman is

01:40:41.980 further along than she

01:40:42.840 thinks she is and she

01:40:43.720 takes it, she's going to

01:40:44.680 wind up with having to

01:40:46.460 have a DNC, having to

01:40:47.620 have a surgical abortion

01:40:48.620 anyway because she's not

01:40:49.880 going to pass it or has a

01:40:52.100 higher percentage of

01:40:52.940 chance that she will not

01:40:53.960 complete her abortion.

01:40:56.660 And I think the FDA

01:40:57.500 recently has approved the

01:40:59.700 prescription of the drug

01:41:01.960 without a direct

01:41:04.020 physician contact,

01:41:07.040 that this is going to

01:41:08.520 become more widespread.

01:41:10.420 And so when that

01:41:11.380 happens, there'll be more

01:41:13.540 unintended consequences, I

01:41:15.180 think, of the

01:41:15.820 complications.

01:41:16.580 So, who was Dr.

01:41:19.980 Bernard Nathanson and

01:41:21.920 what did he admit later

01:41:24.620 on in his life about the

01:41:25.700 abortion movement?

01:41:26.980 Dr. Bernard Nathanson was

01:41:28.820 a practicing obstetrician

01:41:31.680 gynecologist in the 50s

01:41:34.200 and 60s.

01:41:35.260 In his book, The Hand of

01:41:36.600 God, he talks about

01:41:37.560 aborting his own child.

01:41:39.800 Bernard Nathanson was

01:41:41.260 one of the co-founders of

01:41:43.120 NARAL, which is a

01:41:44.280 national abortion rights

01:41:46.040 action league back in

01:41:47.240 the late 60s.

01:41:49.180 And the whole purpose

01:41:50.140 there was to change the

01:41:51.780 perception and the

01:41:54.200 acceptance of abortion by

01:41:55.700 the American public.

01:41:59.380 They had a hurdle to

01:42:02.900 overcome.

01:42:04.580 First, they claimed that,

01:42:08.520 you know, abortion is a

01:42:09.500 medical procedure.

01:42:10.660 It's not a moral

01:42:11.660 procedure.

01:42:12.420 Well, that's really a

01:42:15.680 false dichotomy because

01:42:16.980 you can ask most

01:42:18.660 medical students today

01:42:20.800 and they'll tell you the

01:42:21.720 first tenet of medicine

01:42:23.640 is first do no harm.

01:42:26.880 And that basically gets us

01:42:28.480 to a moral argument.

01:42:29.760 I mean, when

01:42:31.000 medicine loses its

01:42:34.840 view of what is morally

01:42:37.440 right,

01:42:38.720 and then we've lost our

01:42:44.100 way.

01:42:45.600 So when we take care of

01:42:49.340 patients, we want to

01:42:50.920 provide medical care that's

01:42:53.640 in their best interest.

01:42:54.640 We want to be true to

01:42:57.860 moral tenets.

01:43:00.260 I will tell you that I think

01:43:02.580 we are born as human beings.

01:43:04.780 We are born with a sense of

01:43:06.800 right and wrong.

01:43:08.800 It's a nascent or just a

01:43:11.140 budding sense of right and

01:43:12.280 wrong.

01:43:13.020 I know when I was short of

01:43:15.040 my third birthday, my mother

01:43:17.760 was pregnant with my younger

01:43:19.900 brother.

01:43:21.900 And so he's three years my

01:43:24.040 junior.

01:43:24.680 And so I couldn't have been

01:43:27.600 three years old yet.

01:43:28.660 I was two.

01:43:29.320 And I remember having a dream

01:43:30.640 that occurs to you just before

01:43:32.180 you wake up in the morning.

01:43:35.500 My mother was slumped in a

01:43:37.220 chair in a very uncompromised,

01:43:40.580 very compromised position and

01:43:42.380 smoking a cigarette.

01:43:43.880 And my mother didn't smoke.

01:43:45.820 And it was frightening to me.

01:43:49.200 It was not her character at

01:43:51.000 all.

01:43:51.920 And I remember running and

01:43:53.560 waking up and running into the

01:43:55.400 living room and my grandmother

01:43:56.620 was there, her mother.

01:43:58.120 They were talking and I leaped in

01:43:59.760 her arms and I was sobbing and

01:44:01.760 sobbing and sobbing.

01:44:03.720 I was too young to actually

01:44:05.180 express what was going on.

01:44:09.520 But I remember what she said.

01:44:11.500 She said, Steve, what's gotten

01:44:13.080 into you?

01:44:16.020 Even at an age where I was too

01:44:17.960 young to express or understand

01:44:22.100 how to talk about good and evil,

01:44:26.020 I understood it.

01:44:28.120 And I think that's true of all

01:44:30.520 of us.

01:44:30.920 We understand good and evil.

01:44:32.940 And I would say that if the

01:44:35.000 average person could see

01:44:38.820 abortion through my eyes just one

01:44:40.980 time, just one time,

01:44:43.600 that the polls would indicate a

01:44:47.580 high percentage of the American

01:44:48.860 public would oppose abortion,

01:44:51.420 particularly for any reason.

01:44:53.500 The second thing that Dr.

01:44:57.340 Nathanson and his group tried

01:44:59.500 to push was the number of

01:45:02.480 women that would die annually

01:45:04.040 from illegal abortions if we

01:45:08.660 didn't legalize them.

01:45:10.420 The truth is 90% of the abortions

01:45:13.600 that were performed in the United

01:45:14.960 States before Roe versus Wade were

01:45:17.520 done by qualified physicians in the

01:45:19.720 first place.

01:45:20.400 They weren't done in a back alley

01:45:22.020 with a coat hanger.

01:45:23.500 And the year before Roe versus Wade

01:45:28.500 was handed down in 1972, I think

01:45:32.160 the number of abortions in the

01:45:34.360 United States was something like

01:45:35.720 around 250.

01:45:37.300 Abortion deaths was somewhere

01:45:39.240 around 250.

01:45:41.600 They were telling us that if

01:45:44.660 abortion was not legalized, that

01:45:48.800 5,000, 10,000 women would die every

01:45:54.840 year from illegal abortions.

01:45:56.240 Well, I knew that was an

01:45:57.180 exaggeration.

01:45:57.960 Dr.

01:45:58.260 Nathanson later said we knew that

01:46:00.660 was a lie, but the greater good

01:46:03.260 from our perspective was to change

01:46:07.240 the law, to change the perspective.

01:46:11.380 And one of the things that we in the

01:46:13.100 pro-life era are accused of is being

01:46:16.720 religious zealots.

01:46:17.780 Well, again, when you're losing the

01:46:20.140 argument, the first thing you do is you

01:46:21.500 start calling the other person names.

01:46:26.920 Well, you know, I make no bones about

01:46:28.900 the fact that I'm zealous about my

01:46:31.040 faith, but it's not my faith that I'm

01:46:34.720 forcing on people.

01:46:36.460 You know, Jesus never forced anybody to

01:46:39.760 follow him.

01:46:41.640 I'm following in his footsteps.

01:46:43.420 I'm trying to talk to people about the

01:46:47.460 good news, but I'm not going to force

01:46:50.000 you to believe that.

01:46:51.100 I think there's compelling scientific

01:46:53.000 and moral reasons to explain to you

01:46:59.160 why I think pro-life, the pro-life

01:47:01.320 position is the right position.

01:47:03.080 So I don't really have to resort to my

01:47:08.580 Christian faith to do that, although I

01:47:10.640 think my Christian faith informs the

01:47:13.360 science and informs the moral underpinning

01:47:16.020 of why I understand life the way it is.

01:47:25.220 One of the things that I think that the

01:47:29.080 pro-abortion or even the pro-choice

01:47:33.480 movement, I guess, would do would be try

01:47:35.920 to appeal to conservatives and liberals

01:47:39.580 both that abortion is necessary to solve

01:47:46.320 the social and overpopulation problems.

01:47:51.780 You know, I heard just recently that we have

01:47:58.620 10 million jobs in the United States that

01:48:03.180 people are dying to fill right now.

01:48:05.980 We don't have enough people to fill the

01:48:08.480 jobs that we have that are open right now.

01:48:12.260 We've murdered 60 million babies over the

01:48:15.520 last 49 years.

01:48:16.960 And those, many of them would have already

01:48:20.360 had children too.

01:48:21.360 So the number of people, the population that

01:48:26.940 we would have, it would be, you know, if we're

01:48:30.600 just talking about the social aspects of

01:48:32.840 this, devoid of the morality, we would have

01:48:37.800 many more people in the system now.

01:48:41.820 You know, taxpayers paying taxes, you know, us

01:48:45.040 baby boomers now are being phased out.

01:48:48.020 I'm still practicing, but a lot of my

01:48:50.500 contemporaries have retired and a lot of

01:48:55.120 people my age have retired.

01:48:56.420 Most of them have.

01:49:00.860 So, you know, things like social security

01:49:03.160 that was based on paying in enough to

01:49:07.140 support us in our old age.

01:49:09.600 You know, that money's already been spent.

01:49:12.820 So we're relying on a population base to

01:49:18.540 support that.

01:49:19.500 And most experts now say it's going to

01:49:21.960 fail in a few years.

01:49:23.100 We're not going to be able to keep paying

01:49:26.520 those because we don't have enough people

01:49:28.200 in the market.

01:49:29.160 So I think that falls flat on its face,

01:49:35.600 destroying a baby because we don't think

01:49:43.500 we can support it.

01:49:45.940 People have had children and in all, in

01:49:52.100 times of war and poverty, choosing not to

01:49:59.780 have children because you can't provide for

01:50:04.620 them the luxuries that you have is, I think,

01:50:08.300 unfortunately, an American idea that is a

01:50:13.220 false idea.

01:50:14.060 And so I would just basically say that I'd be

01:50:21.300 wary of anybody that says that we need

01:50:23.540 abortion, that we can justify killing babies in

01:50:27.860 utero to solve poverty and social problems.

01:50:34.300 It certainly hasn't done that the last 49 years.

01:50:39.640 So these are the four directions, the four lies

01:50:45.120 basically that were perpetuated by NARAL that

01:50:50.680 Dr. Nathanson later admitted are the lies that

01:50:54.580 they, that they used to, to change the landscape.

01:51:00.360 Uh, I think that, uh, abortion has, is going to

01:51:05.320 have to, if we're going to change the landscape

01:51:07.960 back, uh, to respect for life again, it's going to

01:51:12.860 be changing the hearts and minds of people and, uh,

01:51:16.820 not necessarily changing the law, but changing

01:51:19.780 hearts and minds.

01:51:20.660 And, um, my prayer is that abortion will die a

01:51:23.860 natural death.

01:51:25.480 Beautiful.

01:51:26.040 Last question as a bonus is the future pro-life

01:51:30.620 is the future pro-life.

01:51:33.760 Well, only God knows that.

01:51:35.720 Um, and all we're, uh, required to do is to, uh,

01:51:41.180 speak for those that can't speak for themselves.

01:51:45.540 Um, and I think that's what we're called to do, uh,

01:51:51.200 to, to, to, to be a voice for the voiceless.

01:51:55.960 And, and that's what I want to be.

01:51:58.380 Uh, if it's a matter of convincing people of, to be

01:52:06.520 respectful for life, uh, each of us has our part.

01:52:10.440 And I hope that my words and my testimony will convince

01:52:16.700 people of that, that, that, uh, human life has dignity and

01:52:21.040 a purpose and that, uh, abortion is wrong.

01:52:26.240 And it's, uh, in any of its forms, whether a surgical or

01:52:30.380 medical abortion is wrong.

01:52:32.620 It's morally wrong.

01:52:35.080 Um, and that's the part that I play.

01:52:40.120 And, uh, I would hope that, uh, abortion dies a natural

01:52:45.320 death.

01:52:46.580 I think probably what I would suspect would happen if we see a,

01:52:52.780 uh, a resolution of this with the recent, um,

01:52:55.560 Dobbs versus Jackson would be that, uh, many states becoming

01:53:01.480 pro-life, uh, outlawing abortion and others, uh, perhaps

01:53:06.560 continuing to, uh, approve of it.

01:53:10.140 Now that's going to lead to some consequences of its own

01:53:13.220 people having to travel to get abortion.

01:53:15.560 But I think it'll lead to more women deciding not to abort,

01:53:18.800 uh, particularly in areas like we're in Tennessee right now.

01:53:23.840 Tennessee has a, uh, as I understand it, has a trigger legislation that

01:53:29.160 if Roe versus Wade is overturned, Tennessee will no longer allow

01:53:32.920 abortions to occur.

01:53:33.980 Now, will there be illegal abortions?

01:53:36.960 Probably.

01:53:38.240 Um, but I think what will happen is more women will choose life and

01:53:44.940 that over time, it's going to become more of the default position

01:53:50.360 than, uh, abortion.

01:53:53.780 I could, uh, tell you about Poland.

01:53:56.220 Uh, it was under the, um, uh, under the influence of the, uh,

01:54:01.700 Soviet empire or Soviet union for 45 years.

01:54:05.460 And abortions were, uh, allowed, um, uh, paid by the state.

01:54:16.280 And they averaged about 150,000 abortions a year for those 45 years.

01:54:21.720 And then when they gained their independence and under the influence of,

01:54:25.880 uh, uh, uh, Pope John Paul, uh, in 1990, shortly thereafter,

01:54:33.780 I think, uh, the law was changed and outlawed abortion.

01:54:37.100 Well, all the predictions of, of all the horrible things that would happen,

01:54:41.620 uh, did not come to pass.

01:54:43.740 Um, their, uh, the abortion rate dropped, uh, I think by 1998,

01:54:50.460 there were, um, uh, only 250 something abortions done in the entire country

01:54:59.360 over the year.

01:55:00.240 And what was remarkable about it was that their, um, uh, death rate, uh,

01:55:09.580 the death rate, the perinatal death rate dropped by 30%.

01:55:13.300 And their, uh, miscarriage rate dropped by 25%,

01:55:18.180 which is a little hard to explain.

01:55:20.860 But what I think we take away from that is that women were healthier,

01:55:26.780 not aborting their babies.

01:55:28.000 And that stopping abortions didn't lead to increased criminality

01:55:34.920 and deaths from abortion.

01:55:37.040 All the things that we worry about didn't happen.

01:55:39.720 So, you know, that was Poland's experience,

01:55:42.620 and I have no reason to believe it wouldn't be ours as well.

01:55:51.560 The abortion industry uses women for their own profit.

01:55:56.920 These lies are pervasive.

01:56:00.740 They're not difficult to refute,

01:56:02.840 but it can be difficult to penetrate that culture of lies,

01:56:06.920 to get the truth out there.

01:56:10.420 We have to do it.

01:56:12.060 We have to do it because it's right.

01:56:14.620 We have to do it for the victims of abortion.

01:56:17.340 We have to do it for the women who are taken in by this industry,

01:56:21.660 who are used for dollars,

01:56:24.480 even to their own detriment.

01:56:27.480 If you enjoyed this conversation with Dr. Steve Hammond,

01:56:30.580 you'll want to check out our Daily Wire original documentary,

01:56:34.180 Choosing Death, The Legacy of Roe.

01:56:36.900 In it, we take a wrecking ball to the four fallacies

01:56:39.800 keeping the abortion industry alive.

01:56:42.580 To watch it right now,

01:56:44.300 go to dailywireplus.com.

01:56:46.260 Today, if you join,

01:56:49.480 you will see not only this full movie,

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01:57:01.460 with your support.

01:57:04.000 I'm Michael Knowles.

01:57:05.420 This is the Choosing Life Podcast.

01:57:08.060 We'll see you next time.

01:57:09.220 The Choosing Life Podcast is a Daily Wire production

01:57:16.100 produced in association with Outer Limits.

01:57:18.800 Our technical and support team includes

01:57:20.460 Ian Reed,

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01:57:25.940 Copyright Daily Wire 2022.

01:57:28.480 Thanks for listening.

Choosing Life： Former Abortionist Describes Abortion in Detail - Dr. Steve Hammond

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