In this episode of Cross the Line, host Alex Blumberg sits down with University of Illinois-Urbana-Champaign student and conservative speaker, Bedank, to discuss abortion, free speech, and flag burning.
00:00:14.420Trans-Tractor Human Rights! Trans-Tractor Human Rights!
00:00:18.280Conservative speaker and author Matt Walsh drawing crowds of supporters and protesters here at the University of Illinois campus.
00:00:23.720When my campus speaking schedule was announced, there was one school in particular that I was looking forward to.
00:00:29.540A university that, based on previous conservative speaking events, was in dire need of a sensible common sense lecture for the students seeking an actual education.
00:00:39.660That was the University of Illinois-Urbana-Champaign.
00:00:43.360Do you feel like, on campus, as a conservative, have you felt like it's been okay for you, or has it been difficult?
00:00:48.700I feel like I have to, like, kind of change my view to make it easier for myself, honestly.
00:00:53.180Like, I think I can have them, but it's like, I can't be too vocal about them, because they try to, like, silence or cancel you for what you believe.
00:00:59.660This topic today, being on abortion, is this something you feel like you could talk about?
00:01:03.600Um, I wouldn't necessarily be shouting it from the rooftops.
00:01:07.560Do you feel like you can express your views as a conservative here safely on campus?
00:01:12.820Pro-Palestinian encampments now across more than a dozen campuses, as students call for universities to divest from companies connected to Israel.
00:01:22.240Well, there was even concern that my speech would be shut down entirely because of the utter failure of these lib schools to keep their radical students in line.
00:01:36.700Instead, the university hosted the lecture in a much more secure location than the previous events, allowed everyone in attendance to have a great time and feel welcome.
00:01:45.080The university even went the extra mile to make sure male students who use feminine hygiene products had access to them in the men's bathroom by the lecture hall.
00:01:56.220It was a terrific event to close out the spring tour and allowed me the opportunity to sit down with Bedank, who was able to make it to the speech and discuss why he disagreed with some of my more traditional views of conservatism.
00:02:18.880So usually after the speech, I'll sit down with someone who vehemently disagrees with me, some radical leftist, you know, transgender, socialist, something.
00:03:12.200So from my viewpoint, this is something that's like protected under the First Amendment.
00:03:17.500And I think what makes this country like so great is that we can do, we have a lot more freedoms and the ability to do things that we wouldn't be able to in other countries.
00:03:28.860Because if we can burn our own country's flag, like what cooler thing is there that someone can do, not something I would do.
00:03:38.960But just having this right protected and allowing people to...
00:03:47.660I would say I'm very patriotic towards the country and I'm grateful for the servicemen and for the values that are enshrined in our constitution.
00:03:55.680So then why would it be cool in principle to burn the flag?
00:03:59.680Because part of the values that are ingrained in American society is freedom of speech.
00:04:06.940And burning a flag is an example of freedom of speech.
00:04:12.220Has it always been considered an example of freedom of speech in America?
00:04:35.040You have, on the other hand, another conservative, Antonin Scalia, saying it is protected by the First Amendment.
00:04:41.000But the reason that it came up as a relatively recent Supreme Court case is because for most of American history, it was not considered to be protected by the First Amendment.
00:04:50.060There were lots of anti-flag burning statutes all over the country.
00:04:52.960Because freedom of speech, the First Amendment, doesn't literally mean that you can say anything at all, right?
00:05:07.440I don't have a right, First Amendment right to obscenity.
00:05:11.820Pornography, appeals to the prurient interest, all sorts of things.
00:05:16.960And so I guess on the matter of the flag burning, I guess part of why I think it is good that in America's legal tradition it was not protected by the First Amendment is because the flag is a symbol of the whole country.
00:05:30.640So to attack the symbol of the country on the grounds of what the country stands for is an incoherent action.
00:05:41.600And so there's a line from G.K. Chesterton who says, there's a thought that stops thought.
00:05:45.580That's the only thought that ought to be stopped.
00:05:47.400It seems to me the sort of example of a thought that stops thought.
00:05:50.860Furthermore, every society has taboos, right?
00:05:54.380And so every society has something sacred.
00:05:58.000So if we don't even hold the symbol of our whole country sacred, if we don't protect it to some degree, you know, we have flag code, for instance, then can we hold anything sacred?
00:06:08.040So I agree with like some of the points that were brought there.
00:06:11.160In regards to something like flag code, obviously it's good for people to follow.
00:06:16.120In terms of not burning the flag, we as a society can condemn it.
00:06:21.100But why do you think that we need, like, why do we need to ban it by law?
00:06:28.020Because I think there is such a thing as lex arondi, lex credendi, meaning the way that we act and the way that we worship, the way that we venerate things, is going to affect the way that we believe.
00:06:39.360So that phrase is often used with regard to liturgy, but it's just as true in politics.
00:06:44.640I venerate the flag because it's a symbol of the country.
00:06:47.100If the flag fell on the ground right now, instinctively I would just pick it up.
00:06:57.240Well, because it's a symbol of the broader country.
00:06:59.900So if we get into the habit of burning the symbol of our country, of disrespecting the symbol of our country, of tolerating that disrespect,
00:07:08.240I think that the way that we treat the symbol is going to affect the way we treat the symbolized.
00:07:14.360And we're going to cultivate less of a respect for our country.
00:07:18.100And I think that's exactly what's happened.
00:07:19.380And so I agree with you that on the surface level, it seems as though this is just a matter of speech and ought to be protected by the First Amendment.
00:07:29.280Even if the guys who wrote the Constitution didn't think that that was protected,
00:07:32.940even if generations of American statesmen didn't think it was protected,
00:07:36.760we kind of think it is now and it ought to be.