The Michael Knowles Show - Ep. 123 - 12 Rules For Life ft. Jordan B. Peterson

00:00:00.400 12 Rules for Life, an Antidote to Chaos.

00:00:03.600 That is the title of Jordan Peterson's new book,

00:00:05.860 and we are lucky to have him on the show

00:00:07.980 to cure the ample chaos that we have here,

00:00:10.760 this show, of course, being an antidote to order.

00:00:13.000 It is a runaway bestseller.

00:00:14.800 We will discuss why as well as how you can find order

00:00:19.140 and meaning in this chaotic, desiccated,

00:00:21.660 soy boy culture of ours.

00:00:23.040 I'm Michael Knowles, and this is The Michael Knowles Show.

00:00:30.000 Stand up straight with your shoulders back.

00:00:35.440 Treat yourself like someone you are responsible for helping.

00:00:38.680 Pet a cat when you encounter one on the street.

00:00:41.560 These are just some of Jordan Peterson's Rules for Life.

00:00:44.300 I can't give them all the way, obviously,

00:00:45.940 because then you won't buy the book,

00:00:47.620 and you should buy the book.

00:00:48.740 This book has clearly struck a cultural nerve.

00:00:52.300 Number four bestselling book in the U.S.,

00:00:54.080 according to Publishers Weekly.

00:00:55.480 Number one on Amazon.

00:00:56.520 Number two on the Washington Post list.

00:00:58.480 Number four on USA Today.

00:01:00.000 Only the New York Times refused Dr. Peterson the honor

00:01:03.300 for some bogus excuse.

00:01:05.380 Seems to me I've heard that song before.

00:01:07.280 Dr. Jordan B. Peterson is a clinical psychologist,

00:01:10.120 cultural critic, and professor of psychology

00:01:12.440 at the University of Toronto.

00:01:13.960 Dr. Peterson has almost a million subscribers on YouTube,

00:01:16.880 and his videos have been viewed almost 47 million times.

00:01:20.680 David Brooks calls this the Jordan Peterson moment,

00:01:23.840 and we are now lucky to be joined by him.

00:01:26.300 Jordan, not David Brooks, obviously,

00:01:28.160 much, much better to be joined by Jordan Peterson

00:01:30.620 to discuss the 12 Rules of Life.

00:01:32.620 Dr. Peterson, thank you for being here.

00:01:35.340 Thanks very much for the invitation.

00:01:37.920 So let's get into trouble with the frivolous thought police

00:01:40.860 right off of the bat.

00:01:42.040 The book is subtitled An Antidote to Chaos.

00:01:45.080 You describe order as masculine,

00:01:47.700 the wise king at best, the tyrant at worst,

00:01:50.740 and you describe chaos as feminine.

00:01:53.000 These days, we're told that gender is socially constructed,

00:01:56.060 a figment of our imagination.

00:01:58.580 How deeply entrenched is sex?

00:02:01.460 How far back do our categories of masculine and feminine go?

00:02:05.840 Well, they go back hundreds and hundreds of millions of years,

00:02:10.300 and they do seem to form part of our fundamental cognitive architecture.

00:02:15.200 We tend to see the world in social cognitive categories.

00:02:19.140 We tend to see the world as if it's an animated place,

00:02:21.580 and the idea that sex is a large part of being animated

00:02:27.240 is an extraordinarily deep biological perceptual category.

00:02:33.760 So it can't be dispensed with in any straightforward manner.

00:02:38.400 It's part of the way that we view the world.

00:02:40.920 Dan, the idea that the way that we express ourselves sexually,

00:02:47.460 say, let's call that gender, is malleable, 1.00

00:02:50.020 is obviously true to a certain degree,

00:02:52.120 because human beings are extraordinarily malleable creatures.

00:02:54.980 You can tell that just by looking at fashion variation.

00:02:58.060 But that doesn't mean that gender differences

00:03:00.660 are all sociocultural constructs.

00:03:02.720 In fact, the evidence that they're not, I would say, is crystal clear.

00:03:06.400 The political types are about 30 years behind the social science,

00:03:11.280 maybe 50 years behind,

00:03:13.000 and that's why they're desperately turning to legislative means 1.00

00:03:15.420 to enforce their idiot view of humanity on the rest of the world. 0.99

00:03:19.620 That is something I frequently notice about politics and culture, 1.00

00:03:23.860 is the pop culture and the politics,

00:03:25.640 they are always lagging several decades behind.

00:03:28.640 So you'll see people espousing some relativistic or nihilistic view of the world,

00:03:33.900 and you say, like, listen, man, I know you think you're sophisticated,

00:03:36.820 but you're actually several decades behind.

00:03:39.820 I want to talk about a dream that you write about in the book.

00:03:43.680 You had a dream when writing Maps of Meaning, your first book,

00:03:47.120 that you were hanging from a chandelier in a cathedral

00:03:49.820 with tiny little people below,

00:03:52.160 and you woke up in your bed, and you still saw cathedral doors.

00:03:55.720 Close your eyes again, you're back in the center of the cathedral.

00:03:58.320 Was that vision a sign from God,

00:04:01.800 or was it the fever dream of an academic who's been thinking too much,

00:04:06.140 and is there a difference?

00:04:09.720 Well, I'm not sure there's a difference.

00:04:11.440 I mean, it took me a long time to understand what the dream meant,

00:04:14.440 but I eventually did.

00:04:15.600 I mean, I knew at that point,

00:04:18.160 or I had figured out as part of the process of interpreting that dream,

00:04:22.240 let's say, that cathedrals were constructed in the shape of a cross,

00:04:25.880 and so to be hanging at the center of the cross,

00:04:28.500 which is essentially where the dream put me,

00:04:30.660 was, well, obviously, you know,

00:04:32.400 that's something that can be read

00:04:33.560 in terms of its fundamental religious significance,

00:04:35.840 but that isn't the most appropriate level of analysis, I wouldn't say.

00:04:42.900 The reason that cathedrals are constructed in the shape of a cross

00:04:47.620 is because the cross is an X that marks the spot, so to speak.

00:04:52.760 It's the center place of being,

00:04:54.260 and we're each at the center place of being,

00:04:56.760 and that's a place of suffering.

00:04:59.960 And so part of the Christian injunction is to voluntarily accept that

00:05:04.320 and to thereby transcend it,

00:05:06.840 and the dream was pointing, to me,

00:05:10.440 was pointing out the inevitability of that,

00:05:12.760 the fact that I was being driven towards that conclusion.

00:05:15.980 You see, I'd been spending years, I would say, by that point,

00:05:20.760 meditating and thinking about the fact of the Cold War

00:05:24.620 and about this terrible ideological catastrophe

00:05:27.100 that we had placed ourselves in the midst of,

00:05:30.180 partly ideological possession,

00:05:32.820 driving our proclivity to put the world at risk,

00:05:36.200 as an alternative to that,

00:05:38.580 kind of a nihilistic hopelessness that involved no central narratives whatsoever.

00:05:42.980 I suppose that would be the postmodern conundrum.

00:05:44.880 And I was trying to see if there was a pathway between those extremes

00:05:48.720 that was functional,

00:05:51.000 and the dream was part of that process of realization.

00:05:54.040 And the alternative to ideological possession and nihilistic hopelessness

00:06:00.060 is something like the lifting up of individual responsibility

00:06:03.580 as the proper mode of being,

00:06:05.600 and that involves voluntary acceptance of suffering.

00:06:08.980 You're not going to act responsibly and forthrightly in the world

00:06:12.260 if you're bitter and resentful

00:06:13.660 because of the fact that your life is tragic

00:06:17.500 and that things often go wrong.

00:06:19.800 So you have to transcend that,

00:06:21.300 and the dream was part of the process

00:06:23.780 by which I was starting to understand that.

00:06:26.280 I do want to get back a little bit to that

00:06:28.540 X marks the spot later

00:06:30.000 because we see it in the Christian tradition.

00:06:32.420 We see traditionally the cross is represented

00:06:35.260 with a skull at the bottom of it

00:06:36.780 because it's Adam's skull,

00:06:38.700 and Christ is the new Adam.

00:06:41.280 I want to get back to that.

00:06:42.220 Yeah, well, see the idea,

00:06:43.240 well, the idea there,

00:06:44.300 that's an unbelievably profound idea.

00:06:46.620 The idea there is that

00:06:47.840 the first man, so to speak,

00:06:51.640 the man who's laden with original sin

00:06:54.740 and the knowledge of death is Adam, of course,

00:06:57.520 and that Christ,

00:06:58.780 what Christ represents is the antidote

00:07:00.700 to what brought Adam down.

00:07:03.100 And so Adam was brought down by knowledge of death

00:07:06.320 and knowledge of good and evil,

00:07:07.660 knowledge of mortality,

00:07:08.900 knowledge of nakedness,

00:07:09.820 all of that was what produced the fall.

00:07:12.080 So that's an emergence into self-consciousness

00:07:14.560 and the emergence of the tragedy

00:07:17.480 of the self-conscious world.

00:07:19.540 And then Christ is portrayed as an antidote to that,

00:07:22.340 and the antidote is voluntary acceptance of that burden

00:07:25.560 and simultaneous transcendence of it

00:07:29.600 as a consequence of the voluntary adoption.

00:07:32.000 And that's put forth in the Christian corpus

00:07:33.800 as the imitation of Christ,

00:07:36.080 which is a theme, of course,

00:07:37.580 that runs through Catholicism and Protestantism

00:07:39.720 and Orthodox Christianity alike.

00:07:41.260 I don't think it's something that's attended to enough

00:07:44.580 in the Western Christian traditions,

00:07:46.120 which tend to emphasize our universal salvation

00:07:49.680 through the sacrifice of Christ,

00:07:51.580 which is, well, it has its utility

00:07:54.020 in that it takes some of the moral responsibility

00:07:56.260 off human beings,

00:07:57.360 but it has its price too,

00:07:59.340 because it does the same thing.

00:08:01.360 It lessens the importance of what each of us do

00:08:07.540 to some degree.

00:08:08.220 And the sobriety of it.

00:08:09.480 Right, you know, there is the,

00:08:11.700 Christ tells us, take up your cross, 0.99

00:08:14.300 but he also says, my yoke is easy

00:08:16.140 and my burden is light.

00:08:17.840 And it is true, certain traditions

00:08:19.940 fall a little bit too much to one side

00:08:22.260 or to the other,

00:08:22.820 and they don't hold that tension

00:08:24.460 that you see in your dream,

00:08:26.900 that it clearly pervades the book.

00:08:30.520 Well, that idea too of the burden being light,

00:08:32.860 that's a very interesting one,

00:08:34.060 because it's a very great paradox.

00:08:35.800 But, you know, one of the things

00:08:37.920 that's quite interesting about attempting

00:08:40.260 to only say things that you believe to be true

00:08:43.600 and then also to acting in a manner commensurate

00:08:46.920 with that is that it does make things lighter

00:08:48.960 because you're much less likely

00:08:51.060 to be burdened by your past.

00:08:52.840 You know, you're not guilty and afraid

00:08:54.520 that the terrible things that you've done

00:08:56.060 are going to come to light

00:08:57.020 and you're not sleeping uneasily

00:08:58.640 on a bed of nails

00:09:00.380 that's your guilty conscience.

00:09:01.720 And so there's a lightness about it

00:09:04.200 and a lightness about accepting things.

00:09:07.160 Even though it's a very dark act

00:09:09.180 in some sense to accept things,

00:09:10.620 there's a lightness that comes along with it.

00:09:13.040 It's the lightness of being all in,

00:09:15.020 I would say, something like that.

00:09:16.880 And the opposite of that,

00:09:19.280 when one doesn't have that,

00:09:20.640 the culture is so burdened by itself,

00:09:22.920 it begins to hate itself.

00:09:24.760 You write, quote,

00:09:26.700 now also another problem has arisen,

00:09:28.880 which was perhaps less common

00:09:30.500 in our harsher past.

00:09:32.260 It is easy to believe

00:09:33.380 that people are arrogant and egotistical

00:09:35.220 and always looking out for themselves.

00:09:37.200 The cynicism that makes that opinion

00:09:38.840 a universal truism

00:09:39.960 is widespread and fashionable,

00:09:41.620 but such an orientation to the world

00:09:43.880 is not at all characteristic of many people.

00:09:46.440 They have the opposite problem.

00:09:47.860 They shoulder intolerable burdens

00:09:49.800 of self-disgust, self-contempt,

00:09:52.500 shame, and self-consciousness.

00:09:54.700 Why in 2018 do we so hate ourselves?

00:09:58.880 Well, I think that that paragraph

00:10:00.700 does lay out a lot of it,

00:10:03.240 but we've added additional sources of guilt to that

00:10:06.340 that are, I think, part of the modern,

00:10:09.200 what would you call,

00:10:10.340 manifestation of the idea

00:10:11.800 that human beings have original sin

00:10:13.940 and are fallen creatures.

00:10:15.360 Like, we blame ourselves en masse

00:10:17.680 for the depredations

00:10:19.200 that the planet suffers at our hands,

00:10:21.360 and let's say,

00:10:22.540 without any commensurate sympathy for ourselves.

00:10:25.320 I mean, there are a lot of us.

00:10:28.040 You know, we're going to hit 9 billion

00:10:30.260 by midway through this century,

00:10:31.720 and then it looks like things will probably level out,

00:10:35.960 but that's a lot of people,

00:10:37.140 and we're putting a very heavy load

00:10:39.780 on planetary resources, let's say,

00:10:42.300 and out-competing a lot of animals,

00:10:44.320 and, well, you know the whole

00:10:45.900 environmental catastrophe story.

00:10:47.560 You bloody well hear that all the time,

00:10:48.920 but, you know,

00:10:50.180 mostly what we're trying to do

00:10:51.480 is to survive,

00:10:52.460 and survive with a relative minimum

00:10:54.500 of excess misery,

00:10:55.840 and we're trying to do that

00:10:57.240 the best way we can see fit.

00:10:59.300 It's only been since the 1960s

00:11:01.820 that we've started to recognize ourselves

00:11:04.240 as a force of planetary significance.

00:11:07.320 Right.

00:11:07.740 You know, a hundred years ago,

00:11:09.320 we believed the oceans were inexhaustible.

00:11:11.340 That was a conclusion

00:11:12.100 that was drawn by a commission

00:11:13.800 that was set up by the British Parliament,

00:11:15.140 and so it's only been not even in my lifetime.

00:11:19.980 You know, I'm older than the idea

00:11:21.760 that we are a planetary shaping force,

00:11:24.400 but we carry terrible guilt

00:11:27.920 about the price we have to pay for existence.

00:11:31.380 You know, and you hear people say things like,

00:11:33.380 well, the planet would be better off without us,

00:11:35.440 which is like an absolutely horrifying thing to say,

00:11:39.680 but I can understand why people say it,

00:11:43.780 even though I think it's a dreadful thing to say,

00:11:45.960 but it's never said with any sympathy.

00:11:48.320 Like, we're fighting against mortality itself

00:11:51.680 and all the suffering that goes along with that.

00:11:53.840 It's not surprising that we don't do it perfectly.

00:11:56.380 It's a virtually impossible load,

00:11:58.440 and so if you add that existential load

00:12:00.820 as the member of a species,

00:12:03.000 say, with the kind of power we have

00:12:04.920 to the knowledge that each person has

00:12:06.800 of their own inadequacy and failings,

00:12:08.740 then, you know, we carry a heavy existential burden

00:12:11.800 with something that was very well developed

00:12:14.540 by the existential psychologists of the 1950s,

00:12:17.000 and people feel guilty and ashamed about being,

00:12:20.580 just about being human,

00:12:21.860 and then they don't treat themselves very well,

00:12:23.880 and that's not helpful.

00:12:25.920 It's not a solution to the problem.

00:12:28.920 It isn't even anti-American or anti-Western or this.

00:12:32.960 It is anti-human fundamentally,

00:12:35.120 and you quote the Columbine shooter in the book

00:12:38.440 who wrote Nothing Means Anything Anymore,

00:12:41.680 and one aspect I really enjoy about this book

00:12:43.740 is the constant weaving together

00:12:45.780 of different disciplines,

00:12:47.400 of university, of philosophy and psychology.

00:12:50.480 Everybody and her mother 1.00

00:12:51.880 is on depression drugs these days,

00:12:53.840 and yet I suspect a great deal

00:12:55.560 of apparently psychological problems

00:12:57.880 are really essentially philosophical problems.

00:13:01.220 This pervasive cultural nihilism

00:13:03.580 that robs people of meaning,

00:13:05.580 of a sense of meaning.

00:13:06.420 What portion of our social malaise

00:13:09.100 do you think is philosophical,

00:13:11.120 and how did we get here?

00:13:13.140 Oh, I think it's deeper than that even.

00:13:14.820 It might be theological.

00:13:15.980 Like, I think the culture war that we're in

00:13:17.760 is essentially a theological war.

00:13:19.720 I agree.

00:13:20.400 It's a war on the very idea

00:13:22.840 of the transcendent individual,

00:13:24.940 and some of that can be conceptualized psychologically,

00:13:28.760 but that's not the deepest possible level

00:13:33.440 of conceptualization.

00:13:34.600 I mean, our culture is predicated on the idea

00:13:37.500 that each human being,

00:13:39.560 this is the source of the idea of natural right,

00:13:42.800 let's say, or of individual sovereignty.

00:13:45.420 There's an idea that each person

00:13:47.060 is touched by divinity, let's say,

00:13:49.720 and is made in an image of God.

00:13:52.240 That actually means something

00:13:53.700 in the context of the story

00:13:55.860 within which it's to be interpreted.

00:13:57.620 So, the word of God,

00:13:59.560 which was active at the beginning of time

00:14:01.300 in the Judeo-Christian account of creation,

00:14:04.380 used truthful language

00:14:06.040 to extract habitable order from chaos.

00:14:09.180 And I think that is what human beings do.

00:14:11.800 I don't think we've ever formulated

00:14:13.300 a more accurate representation

00:14:14.680 of the nature of human consciousness,

00:14:16.380 because we confront potential.

00:14:19.720 We call that the future.

00:14:20.820 We confront an infinite landscape of potential,

00:14:23.840 and we choose how we're going

00:14:25.800 to make it manifest itself

00:14:27.100 in concrete reality.

00:14:28.640 Like, that is really

00:14:29.420 what our consciousness seems to do.

00:14:31.220 And that brings new being into being.

00:14:35.440 And our legal systems are predicated

00:14:37.900 on the idea that that capacity

00:14:40.440 should be given all due respect,

00:14:43.660 right, as the generator

00:14:45.060 and recreator of culture itself.

00:14:47.180 And, like, you can't just throw away that idea.

00:14:50.760 It's the idea on which our society rests.

00:14:53.160 And the post-modern neo-Marxist types

00:14:55.140 are after that idea, hammer and tongs.

00:14:57.440 They hate everything about it.

00:14:59.320 And so that's why I think

00:15:00.260 it's a theological battle.

00:15:01.920 That's why Derrida said, you know,

00:15:03.560 he called Western culture

00:15:04.660 phallogocentric, phallo, P-H-A-L-L-O.

00:15:09.640 And he meant male-dominated

00:15:11.140 and logos-centered, which is,

00:15:13.200 well, it's certainly logos-centered.

00:15:15.320 Is he going to criticize that?

00:15:16.460 Well, yeah, he's going to criticize

00:15:17.880 the idea of the sovereign individual.

00:15:20.340 And that's certainly

00:15:20.980 what the post-modern types do.

00:15:22.940 Didn't Derrida say...

00:15:24.380 A curse upon them, I would say.

00:15:26.220 Didn't he say there's nothing

00:15:27.420 outside of the text

00:15:28.860 or it's all everything is relative,

00:15:30.520 everything is a matter of interpretation?

00:15:33.440 Yeah, well, he disputed

00:15:34.760 whether or not he really said that.

00:15:36.260 But I think...

00:15:36.720 Of course he would.

00:15:37.960 Well, right.

00:15:38.740 And I think it's a pretty accurate

00:15:40.140 summation of the post-modern ethos.

00:15:42.380 They're skeptical of meta-narratives,

00:15:44.980 of transcendent narratives.

00:15:45.980 Well, that's all well and good,

00:15:47.520 except that, like,

00:15:48.920 if you and I make an agreement

00:15:51.180 so that we can live together peacefully

00:15:53.640 and cooperate and compete

00:15:54.940 over the long run,

00:15:55.880 it's because we've established

00:15:56.940 a narrative that transcends

00:15:58.380 both our individual identities.

00:16:00.400 And if we're going to live together

00:16:01.840 as a culture,

00:16:02.980 that means that despite our individual

00:16:05.540 and cultural differences, let's say,

00:16:07.380 and let's say we can maintain

00:16:08.620 as many of them as possible,

00:16:10.020 we need to subordinate ourselves

00:16:11.740 to a transcendent narrative

00:16:13.080 that actually constitutes

00:16:14.500 the framework for peace

00:16:15.740 and cooperation

00:16:16.560 and for civilized competition.

00:16:20.440 There's no let's dispense

00:16:22.400 with the meta-narrative.

00:16:24.600 It's like that means

00:16:25.220 let's dispense with that

00:16:26.500 which unites us.

00:16:27.740 Well, then all we have is fragments

00:16:28.980 and then we're going to fight

00:16:30.460 because human beings tend to fragment

00:16:32.560 towards their tribes

00:16:33.660 and then fight.

00:16:35.120 Right.

00:16:35.220 And that's what I see happening

00:16:36.520 both on the left.

00:16:37.440 The left is pushing it,

00:16:38.520 I would say,

00:16:39.300 with everything they've got

00:16:41.900 and the radical right

00:16:43.400 is responding in kind.

00:16:45.240 It's really not good.

00:16:47.200 It doesn't lead anywhere good

00:16:48.880 and I love this central theme

00:16:50.660 of the book

00:16:51.220 of culture as a natural fact

00:16:53.900 of the world

00:16:54.420 because in our highly scientific age,

00:16:57.240 many people seem to think

00:16:58.600 or take it as a given

00:16:59.460 that we just perceive

00:17:01.060 the bare world,

00:17:02.260 the valueless facts of the world,

00:17:04.600 without any meaning

00:17:06.380 and then we ascribe later

00:17:08.320 meaning to those things.

00:17:09.640 You write in the book,

00:17:11.040 quote,

00:17:11.920 there is a little more natural

00:17:13.580 than culture

00:17:14.620 that we perceive.

00:17:16.020 Yeah, well, I mean.

00:17:17.240 Well, my question on this is

00:17:19.280 what does that say

00:17:20.520 about how we should live?

00:17:23.840 Well, one of the things it says

00:17:26.220 is that you can't exist

00:17:28.460 outside of a framework of value.

00:17:30.900 It's not possible.

00:17:32.420 It's not technically possible.

00:17:33.720 I outline this

00:17:34.460 in quite a bit of detail

00:17:36.120 in chapter 10,

00:17:37.060 which is called rule 10,

00:17:38.260 which is called

00:17:38.680 be precise in your speech

00:17:40.280 is that the way

00:17:41.940 the world manifests itself to you

00:17:43.900 is integrally tied

00:17:45.280 to your value structure

00:17:46.980 and that's because

00:17:47.980 to put it very simply

00:17:49.660 is that your very vision

00:17:52.080 is dependent on an aim.

00:17:54.560 Like whenever you look at the world,

00:17:56.200 you're aiming at something.

00:17:57.340 You're aiming at something

00:17:58.180 with your eyes.

00:17:59.020 You can't focus on something

00:18:01.140 without aiming at it

00:18:02.160 and you won't aim at it

00:18:03.160 without valuing it.

00:18:04.660 So your very perceptions

00:18:05.780 are dependent

00:18:06.460 on your value structure.

00:18:08.140 Now, that doesn't mean

00:18:08.820 there isn't a world.

00:18:10.200 It means that it does mean

00:18:11.440 that experience

00:18:11.980 is a complex interplay

00:18:13.420 of your value structure

00:18:14.660 and the unmanifest world.

00:18:16.920 It's something like that.

00:18:18.060 And then that begs the question,

00:18:19.540 which is, well,

00:18:20.020 if you have to have

00:18:20.660 a value structure,

00:18:21.340 then what should it be?

00:18:22.880 Well, and then that brings us back

00:18:24.140 to the ideas

00:18:24.720 that we were talking about earlier.

00:18:25.940 Like you should value being,

00:18:30.000 you should take on

00:18:31.060 the responsibility of being

00:18:33.100 as your highest ethical obligation

00:18:35.220 and try to improve it,

00:18:36.940 try to reduce suffering,

00:18:38.660 try to make the most out of yourself

00:18:41.140 in a way that's beneficial

00:18:42.220 to you and your family

00:18:43.420 and your community.

00:18:44.280 You should aim high

00:18:45.340 and your perceptions

00:18:47.440 will reconfigure themselves

00:18:48.720 around those aims

00:18:49.640 and that will allow the world

00:18:52.020 to manifest itself to you

00:18:53.360 in the most positive possible manner.

00:18:55.360 or at least in the most

00:18:57.080 meaningful possible manner.

00:18:59.300 And in the absence of that, 1.00

00:19:00.420 all you have is stupid suffering. 1.00

00:19:02.440 That is the anxiety and depression 1.00

00:19:04.440 that we talked about earlier.

00:19:05.600 Without a point,

00:19:06.860 without value,

00:19:07.760 without an aim,

00:19:08.740 all you're left with

00:19:09.620 is the misery and anxiety of life.

00:19:11.560 That makes people bitter.

00:19:13.380 I love even to bring up

00:19:16.520 the notion of the aim

00:19:17.420 because one can react 1.00

00:19:19.160 to this stupid suffering 1.00

00:19:20.920 in a number of ways, 1.00

00:19:22.380 but this is so clear.

00:19:23.580 You write in it,

00:19:24.240 you say you cannot aim yourself

00:19:27.020 at anything

00:19:27.660 if you are completely

00:19:29.020 undisciplined and untutored.

00:19:31.180 You will not know what to target.

00:19:32.660 You won't fly straight

00:19:33.600 even if you do get your aim right.

00:19:35.920 And then you will conclude

00:19:37.400 there is nothing to aim for

00:19:38.460 and then you will be lost.

00:19:39.800 And these days,

00:19:40.820 the prevailing moral framework,

00:19:42.220 as I see it,

00:19:43.020 is if it feels good, do it.

00:19:44.880 How is it that discipline

00:19:46.180 and the straight and narrow

00:19:47.620 offer the best chance

00:19:49.000 for a good life?

00:19:49.740 And how is it

00:19:51.600 that we have forgotten

00:19:52.440 that is the case?

00:19:55.160 Well, the reason

00:19:56.080 that discipline is necessary

00:19:58.240 is because you're a mass

00:20:00.720 of competing short-term interests.

00:20:03.960 And so the question is then,

00:20:05.280 well, which short-term interests

00:20:06.720 should win out?

00:20:08.180 And the answer to that is,

00:20:09.560 well, none of them.

00:20:10.900 They need to be organized

00:20:11.860 into a hierarchy

00:20:13.060 that makes them functional

00:20:16.080 across time

00:20:17.280 and across individuals.

00:20:19.080 So like a two-year-old

00:20:20.080 is very likely to act out

00:20:21.800 his or her proximal impulse.

00:20:25.080 But of course,

00:20:25.660 a two-year-old

00:20:26.260 can't survive in the world.

00:20:28.360 You have to bring

00:20:29.880 your primary instincts,

00:20:32.580 let's say,

00:20:33.480 under the regulatory structure

00:20:35.120 of a higher order value system

00:20:36.700 that allows them

00:20:37.660 to manifest themselves

00:20:39.120 without undue mutual sacrifice

00:20:43.080 across large spans of time

00:20:45.320 in the presence

00:20:46.020 of large numbers

00:20:47.020 of other people.

00:20:48.180 So that requires

00:20:48.720 a very sophisticated ordering.

00:20:50.840 It's like we already talked

00:20:52.340 about the fact

00:20:52.960 that a meta-narrative

00:20:53.820 is necessary

00:20:54.540 to unite subcultures, say,

00:20:56.540 so that they can operate

00:20:57.580 peacefully and harmoniously

00:20:58.820 within the same space.

00:21:00.140 The same thing applies 0.87

00:21:01.300 within you

00:21:02.080 because you're like an,

00:21:03.480 you're an internal coalition

00:21:04.880 of warring,

00:21:05.860 single-minded tribes.

00:21:07.540 And they have to all be brought

00:21:09.120 under the organizational structure

00:21:11.340 of long-term collective vision,

00:21:14.120 let's say.

00:21:14.600 And in order to do that,

00:21:16.060 you have to be disciplined.

00:21:17.760 And any discipline,

00:21:19.240 speaking,

00:21:20.260 you know,

00:21:21.000 technically speaking,

00:21:22.340 is an attempt

00:21:23.020 to bring all those

00:21:24.540 competing short-term impulses

00:21:26.280 under a larger scale

00:21:28.760 and more inclusive framework.

00:21:31.180 And so you do that

00:21:32.720 and then,

00:21:33.300 well,

00:21:33.440 that's actually

00:21:33.960 what gives you freedom.

00:21:35.900 Being impulsive

00:21:36.800 and being free

00:21:37.520 aren't the same things

00:21:38.600 because if you're impulsive,

00:21:40.060 you're just the slave

00:21:40.960 of your impulses.

00:21:41.820 Right.

00:21:42.740 There's no freedom in that.

00:21:44.020 That's just,

00:21:45.200 that's the same freedom,

00:21:47.280 so to speak,

00:21:47.980 literally,

00:21:48.800 that a two-year-old has

00:21:49.620 because a two-year-old

00:21:50.420 isn't socialized yet.

00:21:52.280 So it's not,

00:21:54.180 it's a completely,

00:21:57.420 that doesn't function

00:21:58.900 in this sophisticated world.

00:22:01.020 It doesn't work.

00:22:01.980 Right.

00:22:02.140 Everyone knows it.

00:22:04.120 We just like to pretend sometimes.

00:22:05.640 We say,

00:22:05.800 oh,

00:22:05.900 that does feel good,

00:22:06.760 you know.

00:22:07.260 Now,

00:22:07.440 I have one last...

00:22:08.320 Well,

00:22:08.340 we like to pretend

00:22:09.160 all the time

00:22:09.960 because that's why

00:22:10.940 we go out and drink,

00:22:12.060 you know,

00:22:12.300 because drinking enables you

00:22:13.700 to blind yourself

00:22:14.760 to the long-term consequences

00:22:16.120 of your actions

00:22:16.940 and there's no doubt

00:22:18.120 that that's very,

00:22:19.740 very rewarding

00:22:21.000 in the short term

00:22:21.960 but it's also why

00:22:23.280 you wake up

00:22:24.000 the next morning

00:22:25.020 hungover and ashamed.

00:22:27.280 I must tell you,

00:22:28.380 Dr. Peterson,

00:22:28.920 we celebrated

00:22:29.520 St. Patrick's Day

00:22:30.420 and my birthday

00:22:31.560 on this Saturday

00:22:32.580 and I can attest

00:22:34.760 with real-world experience

00:22:36.360 to your theoretical notions.

00:22:38.040 I have one last question

00:22:39.380 that I want to ask you

00:22:40.620 but before we do that

00:22:42.060 and I think this is the,

00:22:43.440 this question is really good,

00:22:44.540 I think it's the crux

00:22:45.360 of the matter.

00:22:46.140 Before we do that,

00:22:46.760 we have to thank

00:22:47.480 a very Jordan Peterson-y sponsor.

00:22:50.480 This is serendipitous

00:22:51.920 and providential,

00:22:52.780 you might say.

00:22:53.600 This wonderful sponsor

00:22:54.740 is Skillshare.

00:22:56.540 Skillshare.

00:22:57.140 This is not just something

00:22:58.180 to go wander around

00:22:59.520 and loaf

00:23:00.020 and, you know,

00:23:00.900 waste your time carousing.

00:23:02.000 This is something

00:23:03.020 to make yourself better

00:23:04.240 and get your life in order

00:23:06.140 and make some order

00:23:07.700 out of chaos

00:23:08.240 and this is a wonderful app.

00:23:10.620 They've been with us

00:23:11.120 a long time.

00:23:12.540 Skillshare is an online

00:23:14.320 learning platform

00:23:15.000 with over 18,000 classes

00:23:17.400 in design, business,

00:23:18.700 technology, and more.

00:23:20.120 You can take the classes

00:23:20.940 in graphic design,

00:23:21.980 social media marketing,

00:23:23.260 illustration,

00:23:24.180 mobile photography.

00:23:25.320 One that I've really enjoyed

00:23:26.520 is on time management.

00:23:28.400 It's on how to stop

00:23:29.320 procrastinating

00:23:30.060 and wasting all of your time

00:23:31.480 and not cleaning your room

00:23:32.400 and all the things

00:23:32.880 you should do

00:23:34.040 to have a good

00:23:35.100 and orderly life.

00:23:36.180 You name it,

00:23:36.660 they've got it.

00:23:37.820 So whether you're trying

00:23:38.640 to deepen

00:23:39.040 your professional skill set,

00:23:40.800 start a side hustle,

00:23:42.280 just explore a new passion,

00:23:43.620 or bring order

00:23:44.820 out of chaos,

00:23:45.980 you should check out Skillshare.

00:23:47.040 It is really good.

00:23:47.820 It's there to keep you

00:23:48.760 learning and thriving.

00:23:50.460 I've really enjoyed doing it

00:23:51.800 and don't say

00:23:52.700 I never did nothing for you.

00:23:53.860 You can join the millions

00:23:54.760 of students already learning

00:23:55.660 on Skillshare today

00:23:56.620 with a special offer

00:23:57.880 just for my listeners,

00:23:59.480 two months of Skillshare

00:24:00.380 for just 99 cents.

00:24:02.200 That is less than a dollar

00:24:03.540 more than nothing.

00:24:04.860 Two months of Skillshare, 1.00

00:24:06.220 you would be foolish 0.98

00:24:06.920 not to do it. 1.00

00:24:08.020 You would truly,

00:24:09.980 clearly have taken

00:24:10.880 nothing from this book

00:24:12.000 if you don't go

00:24:13.460 and try to better yourself.

00:24:14.920 What a way to do that

00:24:16.100 than to get two months

00:24:17.320 of Skillshare

00:24:17.700 for 99 cents.

00:24:19.180 Skillshare is offering

00:24:19.720 Michael Knowles Show listeners

00:24:20.640 unlimited access

00:24:21.660 to over 18,000 classes,

00:24:23.620 99 cents.

00:24:24.400 Go to Skillshare.com

00:24:25.660 slash Michael,

00:24:26.760 M-I-C-H-A-E-L. 1.00

00:24:28.280 Again,

00:24:29.100 go to Skillshare.com

00:24:30.740 slash Michael,

00:24:31.920 M-I-C-H-A-E-L 1.00

00:24:33.080 to start your two months now.

00:24:34.600 What is that address?

00:24:35.560 Skillshare.com

00:24:36.420 slash Michael.

00:24:38.720 Dr. Peterson,

00:24:40.020 you call for people

00:24:41.380 to consider meaning

00:24:43.000 as the higher good.

00:24:44.800 You write,

00:24:45.680 consider then

00:24:46.420 that the alleviation

00:24:47.380 of unnecessary pain

00:24:48.680 and suffering

00:24:49.540 is a good.

00:24:50.880 Later in the book,

00:24:52.080 you call Satan

00:24:53.060 and our image of hell

00:24:54.860 a dreamlike fantasy.

00:24:57.020 Later still,

00:24:57.860 you say that hell

00:24:58.540 is metaphysically true.

00:25:00.360 In the final chapters,

00:25:01.800 you write

00:25:02.220 a very moving,

00:25:03.920 what seems to be

00:25:04.640 series of prayers

00:25:05.640 to, quote,

00:25:07.020 the source of all

00:25:07.880 revelatory thought

00:25:08.820 in a discussion

00:25:10.240 with God.

00:25:11.260 My question,

00:25:12.780 which is it?

00:25:13.520 I'm not asking

00:25:14.200 about metaphor

00:25:14.780 or symbol and symbolized

00:25:17.020 or signifier and signified.

00:25:18.860 Is God fact

00:25:20.160 or fantasy?

00:25:21.740 Maybe God's both.

00:25:22.860 But if you had

00:25:25.160 to pick one,

00:25:25.860 I don't mean to be

00:25:26.900 glib about it.

00:25:27.600 Well, no,

00:25:28.200 I don't think you can do

00:25:29.500 that in a discussion

00:25:30.680 like this

00:25:31.180 because you're talking

00:25:32.900 about matters

00:25:33.600 where the distinction

00:25:34.360 between those things

00:25:35.240 actually starts to blur.

00:25:37.720 No, because there's

00:25:38.480 a reality,

00:25:39.300 for example,

00:25:39.880 there's a reality

00:25:40.580 to fantasy

00:25:41.280 that we don't

00:25:41.860 really understand.

00:25:43.700 Fantasy is how

00:25:44.540 new things come

00:25:45.280 into being

00:25:45.860 and fantasy

00:25:46.720 has a structure.

00:25:47.620 It has this

00:25:48.020 archetypal structure.

00:25:49.080 And so,

00:25:51.100 I mean,

00:25:52.680 let's see

00:25:55.640 if I can come up

00:25:56.280 with a bitters.

00:25:58.400 I can't,

00:25:59.480 I can't come up

00:26:00.360 with an answer

00:26:00.860 to that that's so blunt

00:26:02.040 because,

00:26:02.760 look,

00:26:03.080 one of the things

00:26:03.680 I mentioned

00:26:04.140 while we were

00:26:04.620 having this discussion

00:26:05.520 was that our legal

00:26:06.420 system is predicated

00:26:07.460 on the idea

00:26:08.140 that each individual

00:26:09.100 is made in the image

00:26:10.020 of God

00:26:10.540 and that there's

00:26:11.380 actually a reason

00:26:12.100 for that,

00:26:12.540 that it's tied

00:26:13.120 into the Judeo-Christian

00:26:14.360 narrative.

00:26:15.000 And the narrative

00:26:15.800 suggests that the way

00:26:17.160 that you bring

00:26:18.480 habitable order,

00:26:19.940 the habitable order

00:26:20.840 that is good

00:26:21.720 into being,

00:26:22.840 so that's what

00:26:23.260 happens in Genesis

00:26:24.080 at the beginning

00:26:24.780 of time,

00:26:26.080 is by using

00:26:26.980 truthful speech

00:26:28.020 and that there's

00:26:28.860 something divine

00:26:29.540 about that.

00:26:30.400 It's like,

00:26:30.660 as far as I'm concerned,

00:26:31.920 that's a fantasy

00:26:32.700 but it's also

00:26:33.400 factually true.

00:26:34.660 It's a place

00:26:35.080 where the metaphor

00:26:35.780 and the literal

00:26:36.660 unite.

00:26:38.080 But is there

00:26:38.500 a distinction

00:26:39.000 to be made here

00:26:39.780 between metaphor,

00:26:41.960 metaphysical reality

00:26:43.060 and some sort

00:26:44.360 of fantasy,

00:26:45.420 you know,

00:26:45.780 in the sense

00:26:47.120 that a unicorn

00:26:48.480 would be a fantasy.

00:26:50.800 I don't think

00:26:51.220 a unicorn

00:26:51.680 has metaphorical

00:26:53.200 truth

00:26:55.520 and metaphysical

00:26:56.840 reality

00:26:57.760 but...

00:26:59.560 Oh,

00:26:59.720 I think there are

00:27:00.400 some forms

00:27:01.020 of fantasy

00:27:01.640 that don't have

00:27:02.480 their literal

00:27:03.080 counterpart,

00:27:04.000 let's say.

00:27:04.540 Sure.

00:27:05.180 They don't have

00:27:05.620 their real counterpart

00:27:06.580 but there are some

00:27:07.400 places where fantasy

00:27:08.680 and reality meet

00:27:09.820 and we don't understand

00:27:11.700 those places

00:27:12.320 very well.

00:27:13.480 I don't understand

00:27:14.380 them very well.

00:27:14.800 I think part

00:27:15.340 of the reason

00:27:15.740 that I have

00:27:16.180 a hard time

00:27:16.600 answering questions

00:27:17.400 like that

00:27:17.780 is because

00:27:18.140 they transcend

00:27:19.320 the limits

00:27:20.060 of my knowledge.

00:27:21.360 I actually

00:27:21.700 don't know

00:27:22.120 how to answer

00:27:22.620 the question.

00:27:23.780 Like,

00:27:24.500 I see because

00:27:25.340 it is the case

00:27:27.180 as far as I can tell

00:27:28.060 that the central

00:27:28.680 presumption

00:27:29.160 of our functional

00:27:29.940 legal system

00:27:30.660 is that each

00:27:31.360 person has

00:27:32.020 within them

00:27:32.520 a spark

00:27:32.900 of divinity

00:27:33.520 and that that

00:27:34.520 spark of divinity

00:27:35.380 manifests itself

00:27:36.540 in the bringing

00:27:37.260 into being

00:27:37.900 of the present

00:27:38.560 from the potential

00:27:39.400 of the future.

00:27:40.600 I think that's

00:27:41.260 all true.

00:27:41.960 Is that a fact?

00:27:43.040 Like,

00:27:43.840 is that the sort

00:27:44.700 of truth

00:27:45.080 that we would

00:27:45.540 call a fact?

00:27:46.580 I think so.

00:27:47.000 Well,

00:27:48.260 possibly,

00:27:48.860 but it's not

00:27:49.500 the sort

00:27:50.800 of fact

00:27:51.200 that you discover

00:27:52.020 that it doesn't

00:27:53.620 sit easily

00:27:55.120 in the category

00:27:55.960 of facts

00:27:56.540 that scientists

00:27:57.200 have produced.

00:27:57.980 Right.

00:27:58.520 It's more like

00:27:59.100 an inference.

00:28:00.340 So let's say

00:28:00.900 you observe

00:28:01.960 a bunch of people

00:28:02.820 acting a particular

00:28:03.740 way and then

00:28:05.140 you say,

00:28:05.600 well,

00:28:05.860 here's the rule

00:28:06.920 that describes

00:28:07.820 their action.

00:28:09.500 Say,

00:28:09.720 well,

00:28:09.860 does that,

00:28:10.460 does that rule

00:28:11.240 represent,

00:28:12.400 what does that rule

00:28:13.240 represent?

00:28:13.980 Does that represent

00:28:14.600 a reality?

00:28:15.760 Well,

00:28:15.920 it represents

00:28:16.380 a reality of sorts,

00:28:17.460 but it isn't

00:28:18.080 the same sort

00:28:18.840 of reality

00:28:19.380 that's represented

00:28:20.320 by a pure

00:28:21.000 scientific discovery.

00:28:22.220 They're not

00:28:22.620 in the same category.

00:28:24.160 So I'm not

00:28:24.520 exactly sure

00:28:25.080 what,

00:28:25.940 look,

00:28:26.780 here again,

00:28:27.660 here's the observation.

00:28:29.380 If people treat

00:28:30.660 one another

00:28:31.220 as if

00:28:31.980 they're touched

00:28:32.740 by divinity,

00:28:34.220 their personal

00:28:35.240 lives improve,

00:28:36.180 their familial

00:28:36.720 lives improve,

00:28:37.500 their social

00:28:37.960 structures stabilize,

00:28:39.140 they produce

00:28:39.540 functional political

00:28:40.720 systems and

00:28:41.540 productive economies.

00:28:43.260 Does that make

00:28:44.320 that proposition

00:28:45.700 true?

00:28:46.900 Well,

00:28:47.180 possibly,

00:28:47.980 but it doesn't

00:28:48.540 make the proposition

00:28:49.320 a fact in the same

00:28:50.600 way that scientific

00:28:51.280 investigation makes

00:28:52.320 a scientific fact

00:28:53.340 true.

00:28:53.640 Of course.

00:28:54.560 I ask the question

00:28:55.420 in this way,

00:28:57.660 because I think

00:28:58.800 you write

00:28:59.320 with heartbreaking

00:29:00.580 beauty about

00:29:01.220 Christianity,

00:29:02.220 about the

00:29:03.000 metaphysical

00:29:04.220 logos that

00:29:05.200 has made

00:29:05.600 flesh and

00:29:06.240 dwells among

00:29:07.040 us,

00:29:07.820 and watching

00:29:09.500 you write

00:29:10.220 about this

00:29:10.760 in the book

00:29:11.260 is hugely

00:29:12.000 edifying.

00:29:12.920 We talk about

00:29:13.820 theological issues

00:29:14.600 a lot on the

00:29:15.080 show.

00:29:15.600 I highly

00:29:16.300 recommend that

00:29:17.220 everybody goes

00:29:17.940 out and reads

00:29:19.200 12 rules for

00:29:21.140 life,

00:29:22.040 and also,

00:29:23.040 I press the

00:29:23.700 question that

00:29:24.180 way because my

00:29:25.340 bishop promised me

00:29:26.100 a toaster

00:29:26.540 if I could

00:29:27.140 baptize you,

00:29:27.880 but we might

00:29:28.540 have to save

00:29:29.120 that for another

00:29:29.780 program.

00:29:30.680 Dr. Peterson,

00:29:31.340 thank you so much

00:29:32.200 for being here.

00:29:32.900 It has been a

00:29:33.580 wonderful conversation.

00:29:34.960 I will finally

00:29:35.640 allow you to

00:29:36.380 go on and

00:29:37.340 move on with,

00:29:38.240 I'm sure,

00:29:38.600 your very busy

00:29:39.680 rest of your

00:29:40.220 day.

00:29:41.440 Well,

00:29:41.880 thank you very

00:29:42.320 much for the

00:29:42.800 interview and for

00:29:43.400 the conversation.

00:29:45.440 Jordan Peterson.

00:29:46.440 All right,

00:29:46.840 do I have to say

00:29:47.560 goodbye to

00:29:48.040 Facebook and

00:29:48.440 YouTube now?

00:29:49.060 Okay,

00:29:49.520 all right,

00:29:49.860 that's fine.

00:29:50.380 I wanted to

00:29:51.180 keep Dr. Peterson

00:29:52.540 on for everybody

00:29:53.540 as long as

00:29:54.060 possible because

00:29:55.060 he's fascinating

00:29:56.020 to talk to.

00:29:57.100 So if you are

00:29:58.220 on YouTube

00:29:59.140 right now,

00:29:59.660 I don't believe

00:30:00.080 you,

00:30:00.400 if you're on

00:30:00.780 Facebook,

00:30:01.500 please go to

00:30:01.940 dailywire.com.

00:30:03.800 You will get me,

00:30:04.980 you'll get the

00:30:05.280 Andrew Klavan show,

00:30:05.940 you'll get the

00:30:06.240 Ben Shapiro show,

00:30:07.300 you can ask

00:30:07.780 questions in the

00:30:08.660 mailbag,

00:30:09.580 and if you ask

00:30:10.180 them to Jordan,

00:30:11.400 I'll just,

00:30:11.780 I'll tweet them

00:30:12.340 along to him,

00:30:12.960 I'll try to,

00:30:13.480 you know,

00:30:13.700 try to get us

00:30:14.120 all our toaster.

00:30:15.920 But none of that

00:30:16.720 matters,

00:30:17.100 of course,

00:30:17.460 because what you

00:30:18.660 have is that you

00:30:20.260 need the leftist

00:30:20.960 tears tumbler.

00:30:21.780 I know what you

00:30:22.420 think.

00:30:22.780 You think that,

00:30:23.340 oh,

00:30:23.740 I can just

00:30:24.300 have the

00:30:25.020 abstract concept

00:30:26.600 of a vessel

00:30:27.460 for leftist

00:30:28.080 tears.

00:30:28.780 You know,

00:30:29.320 the leftist

00:30:29.960 tears,

00:30:30.320 they float in

00:30:30.860 the forms,

00:30:31.880 they're sort

00:30:32.260 of ethereal,

00:30:33.020 aren't they?

00:30:33.480 No,

00:30:34.340 that is another

00:30:35.320 evidence of

00:30:37.740 signifier and

00:30:38.440 signified becoming

00:30:39.320 one,

00:30:39.860 and you need

00:30:40.360 this real

00:30:41.120 physical and

00:30:42.300 metaphysical

00:30:42.920 leftist tears

00:30:43.440 tumbler so that

00:30:44.240 you can hold

00:30:44.720 them because

00:30:45.120 they are delicious.

00:30:46.260 They're delicious

00:30:46.780 in the mind and

00:30:47.420 they're physically

00:30:48.100 so salty and

00:30:49.040 good.

00:30:49.420 Go to

00:30:49.660 dailywire.com.

00:30:50.720 We'll be right

00:30:51.260 back.

00:30:53.340 That conversation

00:31:04.200 was far too

00:31:05.780 esoteric and

00:31:07.080 ethereal to

00:31:08.180 leave off on when

00:31:09.220 we've got so many

00:31:10.140 funny, absurd

00:31:10.940 things in the

00:31:11.560 news.

00:31:12.020 So for the last

00:31:12.820 few minutes here,

00:31:13.580 I cannot help but

00:31:15.500 go through all of

00:31:16.060 these.

00:31:16.980 Hillary Clinton is

00:31:17.960 blaming other people

00:31:18.780 for her problems

00:31:19.460 again.

00:31:19.740 my fourth cousin

00:31:21.280 twice removed.

00:31:22.240 I actually forget

00:31:22.820 the relationship

00:31:23.540 somewhere around

00:31:24.400 there.

00:31:24.980 She is blaming

00:31:25.640 other people for

00:31:26.240 her problems.

00:31:26.740 I know it's

00:31:27.040 breaking news.

00:31:28.060 I know this is

00:31:28.580 shocking.

00:31:29.720 Last week in

00:31:30.920 India, maybe two 0.71

00:31:31.640 weeks ago, Hillary

00:31:33.220 Clinton was asked,

00:31:34.520 why did you lose?

00:31:35.900 How did you lose?

00:31:36.660 And she blamed 0.99

00:31:37.580 poor racist 0.99

00:31:38.960 Republicans as 1.00

00:31:40.760 well as the 0.95

00:31:41.240 empty-headed women 1.00

00:31:42.100 who only do what 0.99

00:31:43.440 their husbands tell 0.82

00:31:44.220 them to do, which

00:31:45.500 is elect Donald

00:31:46.300 Trump.

00:31:47.020 And obviously we

00:31:47.980 all knew this to

00:31:48.580 be true.

00:31:48.840 She caught some

00:31:49.320 flack for it

00:31:49.860 though.

00:31:50.320 So this outrageous

00:31:51.600 statement, she says,

00:31:52.820 oh yeah, all the rich

00:31:53.640 people voted for me

00:31:54.640 and all the women who 0.98

00:31:55.460 didn't vote for me

00:31:56.060 hate themselves and 0.98

00:31:56.880 they're slaves or

00:31:58.240 something.

00:31:58.940 Now she's apologizing.

00:32:00.780 She's apologizing and

00:32:02.840 she's really sorry that

00:32:04.080 you misinterpreted her.

00:32:05.640 That was the apology.

00:32:07.380 First, she blamed the

00:32:08.900 questions.

00:32:09.440 She said, well, they

00:32:09.940 asked me these

00:32:10.540 questions.

00:32:11.340 It's really, the

00:32:11.860 reason that I had this

00:32:12.940 faux pas is they

00:32:13.760 asked me the questions

00:32:14.420 and I told the truth.

00:32:15.340 But then she

00:32:16.460 apologizes because you

00:32:18.160 misunderstood her.

00:32:18.900 She said, quote, I 0.56

00:32:19.760 understand how some of

00:32:20.800 what I said upset people

00:32:21.820 and can be

00:32:22.440 misinterpreted.

00:32:23.260 I meant no disrespect

00:32:24.480 to any individual or

00:32:25.900 group.

00:32:27.040 What do you mean

00:32:27.760 misinterpreted?

00:32:28.500 I actually don't see how

00:32:30.340 what you said could be

00:32:31.060 misinterpreted. 0.67

00:32:31.900 You said poor racist 0.98

00:32:33.280 Republicans and 0.99

00:32:34.520 slavish women voted 1.00

00:32:36.000 for Donald Trump.

00:32:37.040 That's it.

00:32:37.580 This is why we don't

00:32:38.400 like Hillary Clinton. 0.99

00:32:39.180 This is why she can't

00:32:40.880 resuscitate herself. 0.65

00:32:42.740 First of all, this

00:32:43.580 apology is disingenuous

00:32:45.020 and deceitful.

00:32:46.720 She's not apologizing.

00:32:48.460 It's like little

00:32:49.140 bratty teenagers do

00:32:50.700 this. 0.96

00:32:50.960 They say, well, I'm

00:32:51.560 sorry if you feel that

00:32:52.640 way.

00:32:53.060 Don't apologize for my

00:32:54.020 feelings.

00:32:54.440 You don't control my

00:32:55.080 feelings.

00:32:55.500 Apologize for what you

00:32:56.180 did.

00:32:57.260 Second, it's arrogant and 0.98

00:32:58.720 disdainful. 0.90

00:32:59.460 It's, oh, well, you

00:33:00.120 don't, you just, clearly

00:33:01.300 you plebes don't 1.00

00:33:02.060 understand.

00:33:02.760 But it's also broadly

00:33:04.180 contemptuous of her

00:33:05.860 fellow countrymen.

00:33:07.340 It just, she doesn't

00:33:08.380 like them.

00:33:09.100 She thinks they're 0.99

00:33:10.040 poor racist rubes and 0.99

00:33:12.460 any woman who doesn't 0.99

00:33:13.960 support abortion on 0.77

00:33:14.920 demand and vote for

00:33:15.780 her is somehow

00:33:17.160 self-hating.

00:33:19.640 I'm, I keep it up,

00:33:20.960 Hillary.

00:33:21.320 Like, I, I know it's

00:33:23.060 the Macedonian

00:33:23.740 teenagers.

00:33:24.720 It's the Click Farms.

00:33:25.760 It's James Comey.

00:33:27.100 It's blah, blah, blah,

00:33:27.800 blah, blah.

00:33:28.220 Keep adding to it.

00:33:29.280 She's just, the

00:33:30.460 Clintons are 1.00

00:33:31.060 constitutionally incapable

00:33:32.340 of shame.

00:33:33.620 They are immune, fully

00:33:34.940 immune from shame.

00:33:36.240 And this is just more

00:33:37.580 evidence of it.

00:33:38.260 Keep on keeping on.

00:33:39.420 Another news story we

00:33:40.520 have to hit is that 0.99

00:33:41.620 Jews are responsible 1.00

00:33:42.780 for the snow.

00:33:44.140 I don't know if you

00:33:45.000 knew that or you

00:33:45.980 read that.

00:33:46.780 A Democrat councilman

00:33:48.460 from D.C., Trayvon

00:33:50.140 White, is blaming a 0.96

00:33:52.040 snowstorm on the Jews. 0.91

00:33:54.320 Not global, this might

00:33:55.340 be an improvement from

00:33:56.160 global warming, but I,

00:33:57.620 you're probably going in

00:33:58.880 the wrong direction,

00:33:59.600 actually.

00:33:59.920 I don't know that

00:34:00.700 that's more credible.

00:34:01.620 He said, quote, man,

00:34:02.640 it just started snowing

00:34:03.600 out of nowhere this

00:34:04.360 morning, man.

00:34:05.260 Y'all better pay 0.99

00:34:06.000 attention to this

00:34:06.680 climate control, man,

00:34:07.860 this climate manipulation,

00:34:09.640 and that's a model

00:34:10.340 based off the

00:34:11.400 Rothschilds controlling

00:34:12.640 the climate to

00:34:13.600 create natural

00:34:14.280 disasters they can

00:34:15.260 pay for to own

00:34:16.500 the city's man.

00:34:17.740 Be careful.

00:34:18.940 He added, be careful.

00:34:20.140 This refers, there's

00:34:21.020 this, you know, the

00:34:21.720 Rothschilds were a 0.57

00:34:22.460 famous banking family

00:34:23.620 and Jewish, and so

00:34:25.400 there are all these

00:34:25.780 conspiracy theories

00:34:26.600 about them, and so

00:34:28.000 now, you know, snow

00:34:30.180 is the fault of the 0.96

00:34:30.940 Jews, which is fine 1.00

00:34:32.220 because I know they're

00:34:32.700 the global media elite

00:34:33.700 and the international

00:34:34.280 banking community and

00:34:35.280 the neoconservative

00:34:36.380 elite, or I don't,

00:34:37.400 there are a lot of

00:34:37.860 euphemisms that these

00:34:38.840 guys use, but now

00:34:40.760 they control the

00:34:41.560 weather.

00:34:42.140 The reason I,

00:34:42.780 obviously this guy's 0.85

00:34:43.740 a dummy, but the 0.90

00:34:44.860 reason I bring it up, 0.97

00:34:46.320 he's a councilman in

00:34:47.220 the nation's capital.

00:34:48.880 It's a funny story.

00:34:50.100 If this had been a

00:34:51.020 Republican dog

00:34:51.900 catcher in

00:34:52.640 Palookaville, USA,

00:34:53.720 there would be

00:34:54.700 petitions right now

00:34:55.720 for Donald Trump to

00:34:56.720 resign for some

00:34:57.820 reason.

00:34:58.360 I don't know why,

00:34:59.120 they say it's

00:34:59.740 Trump's fault, he 0.98

00:35:00.560 elected this dog

00:35:01.560 catcher.

00:35:01.980 We're talking about

00:35:02.720 a sitting councilman

00:35:04.560 in the nation's

00:35:05.440 capital accusing 0.76

00:35:06.640 Jews of controlling 1.00

00:35:08.280 the snowstorms.

00:35:11.240 The left-wing media

00:35:12.740 portray Republicans 0.99

00:35:13.660 as racist kooks. 0.99

00:35:15.280 They do this 0.99

00:35:15.840 frequently, they've

00:35:16.460 done it for decades

00:35:17.200 and decades.

00:35:18.060 They don't portray

00:35:19.060 their own people as 0.52

00:35:20.280 racist kooks, even 0.88

00:35:21.480 though there are 0.99

00:35:21.960 ample racist kooks 0.99

00:35:22.900 among them, probably 0.98

00:35:23.780 more than in the

00:35:24.780 Republican side.

00:35:25.760 They do this, the

00:35:26.600 left-wing media do

00:35:27.280 this, to make it

00:35:28.100 socially unacceptable

00:35:29.120 to call oneself a

00:35:30.360 Republican or a

00:35:31.120 conservative.

00:35:32.060 So, you know, oh

00:35:32.900 you've got to be one

00:35:33.960 of those toothless

00:35:34.660 hicks.

00:35:34.960 That's what Hillary 0.84

00:35:35.440 Clinton was doing to

00:35:36.200 everybody.

00:35:36.920 But then, this D.C.

00:35:38.080 councilman goes on

00:35:39.040 and accuses the 0.97

00:35:40.260 Jews of controlling 1.00

00:35:41.780 the weather and all 0.73

00:35:43.460 of a sudden, you

00:35:44.360 know, there's a

00:35:44.700 little blip, it goes

00:35:45.560 on the Daily Wire,

00:35:46.400 but that's it, no

00:35:46.860 one really talks

00:35:47.420 about it.

00:35:47.980 If it had been a 0.52

00:35:48.780 Republican in the

00:35:49.420 middle of America,

00:35:50.200 this would be running

00:35:51.040 for a week or two

00:35:52.380 weeks.

00:35:52.900 You've got to pay

00:35:53.340 attention to this

00:35:53.940 because they do it

00:35:55.060 so that when you're

00:35:55.740 in an elite place or

00:35:57.180 on a college campus or

00:35:58.180 in a boardroom, you

00:35:59.040 would never admit to

00:35:59.760 being a Republican.

00:36:00.680 They've got way more

00:36:01.520 kooks than we do and

00:36:02.360 they're way kookier.

00:36:03.340 They're so kooky, 0.73

00:36:03.960 they'd even elect

00:36:04.520 Hillary Clinton

00:36:05.200 president and they

00:36:05.840 vote for her. 1.00

00:36:07.280 Don't let them have

00:36:08.140 it.

00:36:08.840 One other story,

00:36:10.300 Jeff Flake might be

00:36:10.960 running for president.

00:36:12.800 He said, quote,

00:36:14.160 I, as you know, am

00:36:15.360 retiring from the

00:36:16.140 Senate at the end

00:36:16.780 of the year.

00:36:17.580 It has not been my

00:36:18.400 plan to run for

00:36:19.100 president, but I've

00:36:19.680 not ruled it out.

00:36:20.580 I hope that somebody

00:36:21.260 does run in the

00:36:21.920 Republican primary,

00:36:23.020 somebody to challenge

00:36:23.860 the president.

00:36:24.960 He doesn't sip his

00:36:26.020 chardonnay correctly.

00:36:27.400 No.

00:36:28.660 I think that Republicans

00:36:29.880 want to be reminded

00:36:30.760 what it means to be a

00:36:31.540 traditional, decent

00:36:32.420 Republican and what

00:36:33.400 the party stands for.

00:36:34.500 Limited government,

00:36:35.660 economic freedom,

00:36:36.800 free trade, and no

00:36:37.900 borders whatsoever so

00:36:38.880 we can flood the

00:36:39.420 country with cheap

00:36:40.100 labor and elect

00:36:40.720 Democrats.

00:36:41.220 Well, he didn't say

00:36:41.600 that.

00:36:41.780 He actually said

00:36:42.260 embracing immigration.

00:36:43.320 These are things that

00:36:44.200 have made the party

00:36:44.920 what it is over the

00:36:45.680 years, and I think

00:36:46.760 that people are

00:36:47.340 wanting to hear that

00:36:48.040 reminder.

00:36:48.640 So I don't know who

00:36:49.260 it'll be.

00:36:49.700 I think the odds that

00:36:50.460 I will do it are long,

00:36:52.480 but I've not ruled it

00:36:53.400 out because we need to

00:36:54.260 use our champagne flutes

00:36:55.480 correctly.

00:36:56.540 It is more likely that

00:36:57.780 the Jews control the 1.00

00:36:58.680 weather than that Jeff

00:36:59.540 Flake will ever be

00:37:00.440 president.

00:37:00.980 There is not a chance

00:37:02.380 this guy is going to

00:37:03.100 be president. 1.00

00:37:03.840 It's so pathetic 0.99

00:37:04.820 though because when 0.98

00:37:05.980 you look at what

00:37:07.080 he's saying, he said

00:37:08.160 we don't, this is such

00:37:09.200 an outrage.

00:37:09.760 President Trump is 0.93

00:37:10.300 such an outrage as a 0.99

00:37:11.140 Republican.

00:37:11.820 I mean, look at what

00:37:12.640 the party used to

00:37:13.360 stand for.

00:37:14.140 Limited government.

00:37:15.880 Donald Trump has

00:37:16.480 cut the government by

00:37:17.660 more than any

00:37:18.300 president in modern

00:37:19.120 history.

00:37:19.980 He's cut entitlement,

00:37:21.360 or entitled, I wish

00:37:22.300 he'd cut entitlements.

00:37:23.080 He's cut regulations and

00:37:24.640 he has slashed the

00:37:25.420 federal bureaucracy more

00:37:26.680 than any president in

00:37:27.540 modern history.

00:37:28.760 Economic freedom,

00:37:30.180 yep, ditto.

00:37:30.880 And we got a great

00:37:32.160 tax reform bill that

00:37:33.680 grew economic freedom.

00:37:35.960 Free trade, he's 0.99

00:37:37.320 threatening tariffs, but

00:37:38.440 no more than other

00:37:39.100 presidents, and he's

00:37:39.820 probably not even going

00:37:40.400 to enact them except

00:37:41.020 against China.

00:37:42.040 And embracing

00:37:42.780 immigration.

00:37:43.920 Well, we're not, by

00:37:44.660 the way, amnesty for

00:37:47.560 illegal aliens is not 1.00

00:37:48.940 immigration.

00:37:49.660 That's not the same

00:37:50.240 thing.

00:37:50.700 Democrats want to 0.62

00:37:51.340 ally those things.

00:37:52.060 They're completely

00:37:52.660 different.

00:37:54.100 So Jeff Flake is

00:37:54.780 never going to be

00:37:55.260 president.

00:37:55.620 It's really funny.

00:37:56.220 I hope he runs.

00:37:57.060 That would be unbelievable.

00:37:58.040 I would be so thrilled.

00:37:59.280 That's our show.

00:38:01.000 We've got to say

00:38:01.360 goodbye.

00:38:01.920 I do want one last

00:38:02.920 point.

00:38:03.620 You know that British

00:38:05.260 interloper, Limey

00:38:06.800 hack, John Oliver, you

00:38:08.320 know, for some reason

00:38:09.200 he colludes with

00:38:10.800 Democrats and

00:38:11.460 interferes in our

00:38:12.100 elections.

00:38:12.960 So he went on his

00:38:13.960 program and made fun of

00:38:15.780 Charlotte Pence, our

00:38:17.160 pal Charlotte Pence, and

00:38:19.220 her, she has a book

00:38:20.180 called Marlon Bundo.

00:38:22.580 It's about the vice

00:38:23.480 presidential bunny

00:38:24.320 rabbit.

00:38:24.960 And so he made one

00:38:25.780 where Marlon Bundo is 0.81

00:38:26.720 gay because all, the 1.00

00:38:28.440 only thing that 0.99

00:38:29.140 Democrats care about 1.00

00:38:29.960 in 2018 is gay sex. 1.00

00:38:31.940 That is the height of 0.99

00:38:33.920 philosophy, politics, and

00:38:35.800 moral philosophy is just

00:38:38.520 that.

00:38:39.100 They don't have room to

00:38:40.040 think about anything

00:38:40.500 else.

00:38:41.080 So anyway, all of his

00:38:43.780 fans, all of these

00:38:45.040 empty heads are going to

00:38:46.500 Amazon and leaving one

00:38:47.740 star reviews on

00:38:48.820 Charlotte Pence's book.

00:38:49.920 Let's get that spirit of

00:38:50.940 76. 0.88

00:38:51.680 Let's punch that Limey 0.98

00:38:53.080 right in the proverbial 1.00

00:38:54.840 virtual mouth and go leave

00:38:57.860 five-star reviews for

00:38:58.800 Charlotte's book and

00:38:59.760 order it.

00:39:00.200 I've got a copy right

00:39:00.880 over there, a signed

00:39:01.620 copy.

00:39:01.980 It's pretty cool.

00:39:02.840 Let's go do that because

00:39:03.720 that British guy drives me 1.00

00:39:04.800 so freaking crazy. 0.99

00:39:06.420 Okay, that's our show

00:39:07.180 today.

00:39:07.420 I'm Michael Knowles.

00:39:08.080 This is The Michael

00:39:08.600 Knowles Show.

00:39:09.120 Come in tomorrow.

00:39:09.840 We'll do it all again.

00:39:10.380 The Michael Knowles Show is a

00:39:17.500 Daily Wire Forward Publishing

00:39:18.760 production.

00:39:19.740 Executive producer, Jeremy

00:39:21.160 Boring.

00:39:21.880 Senior producer, Jonathan

00:39:23.160 Hay.

00:39:23.780 Supervising producer, Mathis

00:39:25.400 Glover.

00:39:25.940 Our technical producer is

00:39:27.120 Austin Stevens.

00:39:28.260 Edited by Alex Zingaro.

00:39:30.000 Audio is mixed by Mike

00:39:31.260 Coromina.

00:39:32.000 Hair and makeup is by

00:39:33.100 Jesua Olvera.

00:39:34.440 Copyright Forward

00:39:35.240 Publishing 2018.

00:39:36.200 We'll see you next time.

The Michael Knowles Show - March 19, 2018

Ep. 123 - 12 Rules For Life ft. Jordan B. Peterson

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript