The Michael Knowles Show - Ep. 133 - Jesus： Behind The Music ft. Mark Joseph

00:00:00.000 How did Christians shift pop music from sex, drugs, and rock and roll to themes of faith and devotion?

00:00:07.080 We will discuss with Mark Joseph, author of Rock Gets Religion, The Battle for the Soul of the Devil's Music.

00:00:14.020 Then, a caravan of over 1,000 illegal aliens wants to invade our country.

00:00:18.640 And the MSM, the mainstream media, are steadfastly denying any problem.

00:00:22.840 China strikes back at UF's tariffs.

00:00:24.860 And finally, hope for the future.

00:00:27.360 The children. Think of the children.

00:00:29.020 I'm Michael Knowles, and this is The Michael Knowles Show.

00:00:38.440 So much to get to today.

00:00:40.020 So much to get to.

00:00:40.620 We both, we've got to talk about Jesus behind the music.

00:00:44.640 We've got to talk about, you know, the E! True Hollywood story.

00:00:47.360 We've got to talk about this invasion that's happening.

00:00:49.980 That, oh, no, it's okay. No big deal.

00:00:51.220 No one's paying any attention to it.

00:00:52.620 There's a caravan of over 1,000 people on its way to the U.S.

00:00:55.580 And all of the political implications for that.

00:00:59.720 China, everyone is getting China wrong.

00:01:01.720 Everyone's getting these tariffs wrong.

00:01:05.000 They're oversimplifying.

00:01:06.180 We'll go through what's actually happening.

00:01:07.780 And then, of course, hope for the future.

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00:02:45.240 So much to talk about.

00:02:46.780 I can't wait to get into all of this today because this is something that happens in politics is you get all these buzzwords.

00:02:54.340 So they'll say, well, this isn't free trade or this is protectionism or this is this or that ism, ism, ism.

00:03:00.480 And what's going on in China is much more complicated and it actually gives President Covfefe, shines him in a better light.

00:03:08.320 It puts him in a much better light.

00:03:09.560 We're trying to put these complex questions into very simple ideological categories.

00:03:14.020 We'll see what's going on there and I will defend President Covfefe in some ways on this tariff bill.

00:03:20.500 And then, of course, the giant invasion that nobody's talking about, the imminent invasion of our country,

00:03:25.540 will shed some light where the mainstream media refused to do that.

00:03:29.020 But before we get to it, we will bring on Hollywood producer Mark Joseph, the author of Rock Gets Religion,

00:03:34.140 The Battle for the Soul of the Devil's Music.

00:03:36.580 Hank Hill on the cartoon King of the Hill famously observed that Christian rock doesn't make rock better.

00:03:43.180 It just makes Christianity worse. 1.00

00:03:45.100 We will get some perspective in that on this segment, Jesus Behind the Music.

00:03:49.180 Here is Mark.

00:03:51.260 Thank you for being here.

00:03:53.260 Hey, great to be with you, Michael.

00:03:54.140 Thanks for having me.

00:03:54.740 So, as you write, rock music was birthed in hedonism and in the 21st century, it got overtaken by religion.

00:04:02.780 What changed?

00:04:03.620 Well, I write in the book how rock and religion got off to a rocky start.

00:04:08.160 It's like a bad first date, right?

00:04:10.960 Remember that.

00:04:11.880 Remember back in the old days.

00:04:12.800 Right.

00:04:13.000 You know, so rock begins, first of all, religious people and traditionalists, there's so much, so many things happening at the same time coming at them.

00:04:22.060 There's the Vietnam War.

00:04:23.100 There's the pill.

00:04:24.000 There's rock and roll.

00:04:24.900 There's Elvis.

00:04:25.520 There's the Stones.

00:04:26.560 So much social upheaval at one time.

00:04:28.740 And it was hard for them to sort out what is good, what's not good.

00:04:32.100 What can we work with?

00:04:32.820 What can't we work with?

00:04:33.680 And the kind of knee-jerk reaction was, well, let's just burn records because we don't like the influence this is having on our young people.

00:04:41.320 So we'll burn records.

00:04:42.320 We'll call it the devil's music.

00:04:43.520 We'll come up with these weird excuses like we heard these beats in the jungles of Africa when they were doing voodoo ceremonies. 0.95

00:04:49.020 Like, oh, the craziest stuff you can imagine.

00:04:51.180 And so there's an overreaction to the power of rock and roll.

00:04:53.880 And it took a while for especially religious leaders, more conservative figures, to go, wait a minute, there's nothing inherently wrong with this music.

00:05:01.940 It's all about what you're singing and talking about.

00:05:04.720 And so that overreaction then leads to the formation of the Christian rock industry, which is like a parallel universe.

00:05:11.320 So you have kind of normal music over here, and then you have contemporary Christian music over here that's happening on a parallel track.

00:05:18.880 And that went on for about 30 years until what I talk about in the book is the mainstreamization of those artists.

00:05:26.120 So the kinds of artists that you didn't know growing up, bands like artists like Phil Keggy and DeGarmo and Key and all these amazing artists that never really got heard because they were in this Christian music business.

00:05:38.520 What's happened today is there's been a radical change.

00:05:41.380 And the mainstream music business is actually full of a lot of very religious people.

00:05:45.240 People don't quite realize that people like Taylor Swift and Justin Bieber and many others are actually kind of, you know, ordinary kind of church-going Americans in the case of Justin Bieber, Canadians.

00:05:57.480 And these artists have really brought their influence to bear in the mainstream music business, not often the fringe.

00:06:03.740 What is it precisely that did this?

00:06:06.560 Because I remember, I'm old enough to remember the time before Christian rock became basically the mainstream of pop music.

00:06:14.300 Now, you suggest some possibilities in the book.

00:06:18.380 Was it perhaps 9-11 that did this?

00:06:21.060 Was it The Passion of the Christ as this mainstream, obviously 100% Christian movie?

00:06:27.960 What events do you think pushed these religious undertones that had maybe always been around rock music or coming up from gospel and pushed it into the mainstream?

00:06:37.960 Sure.

00:06:38.240 I talk about four big things in the book.

00:06:40.620 So the first thing is artists like a Justin Bieber is a great example.

00:06:47.660 In the past, and a lot of this has to do with theology, believe it or not, but the way you believe and the things you believe and the way you look at the world really influences how you act.

00:06:56.100 And so we had a theology of separation back in the day, which was what Christians would separate themselves from the world. 0.99

00:07:03.320 They would use kind of Bible verses out of context and say, come ye apart and be separate.

00:07:09.020 Because the mainstream rock business is dirty, we have to separate and form a Christian side of it. 1.00

00:07:14.620 You hear it in politics as well.

00:07:16.060 Politics is dirty.

00:07:16.940 We should get out.

00:07:17.980 Let's separate.

00:07:18.600 So that began to change.

00:07:21.000 And so Justin Bieber is actually a really good example because his mother is a very devout Christian woman.

00:07:26.060 And in the past, Justin Bieber would have been guided to Nashville to sign with a Christian music label as the son of a very devout Christian woman.

00:07:34.360 And then you and I wouldn't have heard of Justin Bieber except for on the fringes of culture.

00:07:38.460 Right.

00:07:38.560 Uh, he goes mainstream.

00:07:40.620 So that's, that's happened with dozens and dozens and dozens of artists.

00:07:43.900 The second one that's really significant is American Idol.

00:07:47.140 American Idol plays a significant role in this process.

00:07:50.180 Uh, because in the sixties, seventies, eighties, and most of the nineties, basically our rock and pop stars are picked by 10 white guys in Hollywood.

00:07:59.340 Now you may think you're an Eagles fan and you discovered the Eagles in 1975, but you really didn't.

00:08:05.760 You only discovered that because a guy in, in a gatekeeper in Hollywood discovered them for you.

00:08:11.860 And that's how you discovered them.

00:08:13.220 So there were these gatekeepers.

00:08:14.800 Clive Davis is one that I talked about in the book.

00:08:17.200 And, uh, let's just say that, uh, Clive Davis's values were a little bit different than your values probably, or than Ben's values.

00:08:24.880 Right.

00:08:25.000 And so certain people were getting chosen to be rock and pop stars because the gatekeepers approved of them.

00:08:31.340 So what, and I give an example in the book, there's a Christian pop star named Keith Green who became a Christian pop star.

00:08:37.460 But before that, he actually auditioned for Clive Davis in New York in 1976, I believe it was, didn't get the gig.

00:08:44.840 And so he had to go into Christian pop.

00:08:46.980 Well, American Idol breaks up the entire paradigm of the Clive Davis types picking our rock and pop stars.

00:08:53.800 And so for the first time, you know, Susie in Cleveland and Hank in, in Alabama, they're picking the pop and rock stars in the 2000s, many of them.

00:09:03.280 So Carrie Underwood is an example.

00:09:04.900 Daughtry is an example.

00:09:06.280 Dozens and dozens of artists are not being picked.

00:09:09.340 They're in a sense going around the gatekeepers and getting chosen by the American people directly.

00:09:13.600 And then the third and fourth things are Alice Cooper is an example where in the old days, when a rock star would have a conversion to Christianity, he would immediately exit off stage right.

00:09:25.080 Usually cut his hair.

00:09:26.420 Never see again.

00:09:27.220 Yeah.

00:09:27.740 That's, that's exactly right.

00:09:29.080 Cut his hair and then start singing hymns.

00:09:31.580 That was like the paradigm.

00:09:32.980 I'm only half kidding.

00:09:34.060 It's actually fairly true.

00:09:35.320 But Alice is a great example where as the theology changes, the activity changes.

00:09:40.160 So Alice goes to his preacher after he becomes a born again Christian.

00:09:43.360 His preacher says, you know, what should I do now?

00:09:45.840 Right.

00:09:46.100 Because I'm Alice Cooper and I got this makeup and this crazy stuff.

00:09:49.640 And his preacher says to him, does God make mistakes?

00:09:52.860 And Alice is like, I don't think so.

00:09:54.320 And he says, well, God made you to be Alice Cooper.

00:09:56.300 So go back out there and be the most God honoring Alice Cooper you can be.

00:10:01.040 So that's a third.

00:10:01.960 The fourth one is bands that were big in the Christian world began to cross over into the mainstream side.

00:10:08.340 For instance, Switchfoot or Joy Williams actually had a career as a Christian pop star before she became half of the Civil Wars who became this, you know, popular band.

00:10:20.120 So those four phenomena have really changed the landscape.

00:10:22.480 Speaking of Switchfoot, you write in the book, quote, Switchfoot presented fans and the pop music culture with a winsome group of surf rockers whose smiles, floppy hairstyles and comforting personae masked a deep message.

00:10:38.260 One that was in some ways far more troubling than anything that Marilyn Manson, Eminem or Insane Clown Posse had managed to shock the public with.

00:10:47.380 Rock and roll is all about rebellion.

00:10:49.620 What does rebellion look like in the 21st century, in 2018?

00:10:54.320 That's a great question.

00:10:55.420 You know, I went to a Switchfoot concert at the House of Blues one time and I looked back up in the in the seats and I saw three generations of fans.

00:11:03.900 I saw grandparents, parents and kids.

00:11:07.820 And I thought this is really interesting because, again, rock and roll is birthed in.

00:11:12.600 I'm going to do something that my parents don't want me to do.

00:11:15.040 And and and yet, you know, what does that look like today?

00:11:18.820 I mean, the same thing happens with Kiss concerts.

00:11:20.780 I've heard the same thing as well, that you have three generations of fans there.

00:11:24.960 I just you know, rock and roll doesn't have to be this divisive thing.

00:11:28.540 It can be a uniting thing.

00:11:29.960 But also just in terms of messaging, you know, there there is a there has been something of a conservative backlash against the old ways of rock and roll.

00:11:41.400 And, you know, I credit part of this, by the way, to the old VH1 series behind the music.

00:11:47.600 You guys remember that from the old days.

00:11:49.440 I think that's had a it's hard to quantify, but it's had an effect.

00:11:54.340 And the reason I say that is, you know, young bands would grow up when they were teenagers.

00:11:57.780 They would watch that show.

00:11:58.760 And every show is like the same story over and over and over again.

00:12:02.060 Right. Rock star makes it big, makes a ton of money, snorts it up his nose, have five wives and now he's homeless.

00:12:11.340 Right. And I think I think young rock stars like, why do I want to do that?

00:12:15.000 Like, I don't want to do that. I want to be different.

00:12:17.100 I want to do something interesting and unusual and not fall into the same traps that happened to my forebears.

00:12:23.420 I think that's had an impact.

00:12:24.840 I think it's it is kind of led to like a even if you're not religious, there's definitely kind of a clean rock segment of rock music where they just I'd never forget going back going to a Megadeth concert.

00:12:37.940 And and I went backstage and it was like an alcohol free zone.

00:12:41.340 And I'm thinking like, wait a minute, this is a Megadeth.

00:12:43.040 Where am I?

00:12:44.160 What happened here?

00:12:44.940 There is something that gets a little exhausting about sex, drugs and rock and roll.

00:12:50.460 Right. You know, if you're just all you're doing is going out and doing a bunch of drugs and partying all night at a certain point, it does get old.

00:12:57.260 It's not very gratifying. You do get sex-austed ultimately.

00:13:00.620 And that might be it, too, where to say it's very easy.

00:13:04.320 It's it's a cliche to say go out and, you know, party all night and have casual sex forever and ever.

00:13:12.000 There's a time and a place for everything. And that place is college.

00:13:14.520 But you have to graduate college at some point. You have to go on and grow up eventually.

00:13:18.760 And there's a real rebellion in that. I think it's why Jordan Peterson is selling a gazillion books now and other people who talk about this.

00:13:26.800 People say, you know, maybe I should clean my room. Maybe I should get my life in order.

00:13:30.720 Maybe there's something rebellious about that.

00:13:32.500 Well, when when the culture is now baby boomers to be countercultural is, in a sense, going against that ethic.

00:13:40.460 And there was a funny moment I talked about in the book when Justin Bieber speaks out against abortion.

00:13:45.920 And I just thought it was so odd that I'm watching The View one day and the old ladies in The View are scolding Justin Bieber for being pro-life.

00:13:53.700 It's like something is wrong with this picture. Right.

00:13:56.560 They're like they're saying, well, he doesn't understand because he's too young.

00:13:59.300 It's like when you have a 60 year old, you know, whatever her age is, Joy Behar, like scolding whoever was in The View that week.

00:14:06.600 Right. It was. But it was definitely things are upside down.

00:14:10.020 And there's an old adage that says to rebel and season is not to rebel.

00:14:14.220 And so when everybody is of a certain mindset, it's no longer that cool.

00:14:18.520 And so you are having a kind of a countercultural moment in a lot of cases.

00:14:22.020 That is such a funny moment where they say, you don't understand, Bieber.

00:14:25.260 You're not rebellious like all of us 60 year old women.

00:14:28.260 You keep using that word. I think it doesn't mean what you think it means.

00:14:33.260 Well, you know, as the son of a unwed teen mom, I think Justin Bieber may have an opinion on that topic, shall we say.

00:14:40.980 His life could have gone in a very different direction had his mother made a different choice.

00:14:44.820 That's right. And there has been a shift within even certain musicians themselves, within broadly over these musicians.

00:14:54.060 You would see Janet Jackson, as you write. She used to sing about chastity.

00:14:58.140 She sang, let's wait a while. Seven years later, she's singing, that's the way love goes.

00:15:03.720 Miley Cyrus is this cute little kid. And then she has this shift and she's doing heinous and not even terribly scintillating things on stage during the VMAs. 0.98

00:15:15.160 Is this a cultural shift or is this just the way the music industry works?

00:15:20.240 Well, there is a process. I give the Janet Jackson story in the book and it's a great example.

00:15:26.520 And thank you for reading the book, by the way. What a shock. An interviewer has read the book.

00:15:29.700 They never they never do it. The only interviewers only ever read my my book because it's a quick read.

00:15:34.280 But I really enjoyed the book. I recommend it to to anyone listening and watching.

00:15:39.380 No, thank you. Yeah, there is a certain pressure the music business puts on you.

00:15:43.760 And Janet's a great example. I've interviewed her once years ago.

00:15:47.620 But, you know, sure, her mother is a very devout Jehovah's Witness.

00:15:51.200 She's sort of a traditionally traditionally conservative type person.

00:15:54.100 But over a period of time, the music business kind of wears you down.

00:15:58.340 And the other thing that's an interesting phenomenon is a lot of male songwriters write kind of male sexual fantasy songs and then give them to female songwriters and say, here, sing this.

00:16:08.180 Right. And it's a very odd thing.

00:16:10.140 As I went back and researched some of the most sexual songs in our history, I found that most of them are written by like middle aged men. 0.99

00:16:16.180 Right. And there's there just weren't I remember thinking about even an old song you may remember, there's a song.

00:16:23.820 Oh, the divinals, you know, I touch myself. 0.99

00:16:26.880 I thought to myself, I look that up. And those are guys that wrote that song.

00:16:30.860 That's a that's a guy. Shocker.

00:16:33.020 What he's hoping. Right. What he's hoping a young girl is going to say. 0.51

00:16:36.220 But it really is astonishing. And so there is that pressure that comes to bear from the machine on these young artists to be hyper sexualized.

00:16:45.180 And to write about topics like that or to sing about topics like that, where that that really is probably not naturally in many of their hearts.

00:16:52.120 On the question of the of the product itself, of the pop music itself, you know, and the conservative view on this, the traditionalist knock was probably best summed up by Hank Hill, the cartoon character who said Christian rock doesn't make rock music better.

00:17:06.740 It makes Christianity worse. And you talk about Kanye West in the book and some Kanye songs are both good songs and they're quite Christian. 0.99

00:17:17.200 You know, Jesus walks. God, show me the way because the devil's trying to break me down.

00:17:21.520 Others are not good songs and they're very self-aggrandizing and they're vicious and they're just awful.

00:17:28.880 And is there value to a Christian pop culture if the culture itself is degraded, if the music itself isn't very good?

00:17:38.220 Does this mean you're not going to be buying Snoop Dogg's gospel album?

00:17:41.680 I was I was waiting to be on it. I was hoping he would ask me to to perform.

00:17:45.980 But say love a tough business.

00:17:47.920 Right. Well, you know, seriously, on a serious note, I think what happened in the old days, like when we were kids, you know, your friends would say, well, Christian rock sucks, whatever. 0.97

00:17:57.040 What I discovered what it really wasn't the artists, it was the pressures that would come to bear on an artist in the Christian music industry that would make the music kind of boring and derivative and in a certain way.

00:18:08.900 And the reason I know this for a fact is like an artist like Joy Williams.

00:18:13.080 So when she did three Christian pop albums, you know, it was Christian pop.

00:18:17.380 She kind of breaks free of the constraints of that industry and then becomes the civil wars. 0.98

00:18:21.720 And now suddenly every NPR loving, vocal driving person in on the East Coast loves her and adores her.

00:18:29.200 Right. It's the same person.

00:18:30.300 But she was now more free to express herself artistically.

00:18:34.080 She had a better budget.

00:18:35.260 So I don't think the artists themselves or the music was that way, but sometimes the pressure of that industry caused it to be less than than than great music.

00:18:43.940 But in terms of like the hip hop community and the in the gospel community, there's always been a tension between those two worlds.

00:18:50.980 And there's always been a temptation on the part of especially African-American artists to make one one off gospel albums.

00:18:58.800 Right. So you've got Snoop Dogg doing, you know, kind of R rated or X rated stuff.

00:19:03.040 Then I'm going to do my gospel album now, which is always a little a little bit weird.

00:19:06.420 Right. But, you know, I don't want to judge anybody's gospel album.

00:19:10.840 But I think what we're moving more toward is a cohesive view and a cohesive person who doesn't do one offs.

00:19:16.560 I'll get Alice Cooper's a great example.

00:19:17.920 So he's still Alice Cooper, but his lyrics are different now.

00:19:22.080 And so you don't have the Alice Cooper does gospel and then does Alice Cooper.

00:19:26.240 He's one in the same, but he's incorporating his beliefs into his stage persona and into his music.

00:19:31.220 That's right. He has a great line.

00:19:32.780 Alice Cooper writes the introduction to the book and he has this great line.

00:19:36.860 He says, what the rocker is really doing is giving a gigantic yell for help.

00:19:43.760 And it's a it's a good line for conservatives who say, oh, I don't want to listen to this.

00:19:47.920 You know, the Alan Bloom idea of like it's all bad and making the kids immoral.

00:19:53.080 There is this other side of it, which is perhaps this is a kind of cry for meaning and a cry for God that we all do.

00:20:00.040 And the most, you know, black nail polish death metal guys are maybe doing it more than anybody else.

00:20:08.060 My last question, then I'll let you go, is on the future.

00:20:11.240 You've been around here a long time.

00:20:14.000 You've written about this.

00:20:15.000 You've participated in these industries.

00:20:16.400 You know a lot of the players.

00:20:17.980 Where is Hollywood headed?

00:20:19.680 We're in the Me Too era.

00:20:21.680 We're seeing a rise of Christian music and religious movies.

00:20:25.200 What do the next 10 years of the entertainment industry look like?

00:20:29.420 Well, you know, I was thinking about this the other day and I went back and rewatched a lot of I Love Lucy.

00:20:36.120 And I thought to myself, now, how is it that first of all, her maiden name is Lucille McGillicuddy.

00:20:42.160 Call me crazy, but she's Irish. 0.99

00:20:43.960 He's Cuban, right?

00:20:45.480 So you have an Irish girl and a Cuban guy that get together.

00:20:48.720 Call me crazy, but they're probably Catholic.

00:20:50.780 Now, when did you ever see a Catholic moment of any kind of that entire TV series?

00:20:55.460 Did they ever go to mass?

00:20:56.500 Was there ever a priest?

00:20:57.440 No, they just slept in separate beds.

00:20:59.180 That was the only moment.

00:21:00.720 You know what?

00:21:01.580 I have to amend my—that is correct.

00:21:03.500 That's a Catholic moment.

00:21:04.760 But the point is there's no religious moment that I could see in that entire series of two Catholic people who got together and fell in love and got married.

00:21:11.920 And I think what it is is we had this obsession in a great part of the last 50 years with de-religializing our pop culture.

00:21:19.540 And I don't know what the reasons were exactly.

00:21:21.260 Maybe it was an advertiser saying, hey, don't show them with a priest.

00:21:24.500 We don't want to take sides in religion.

00:21:27.440 But the point is we've tried—we've bent over backwards to create this fake secular culture that doesn't even exist in our real lives.

00:21:34.720 You know, our neighbors go to church once a week.

00:21:36.600 Your neighbor goes to Bible study, whatever it might be, to temple.

00:21:39.840 And so for some reason we've felt the need to create a fake artificial culture in our media that's not reflective of our lives.

00:21:46.620 We always talk about we've got to keep it real.

00:21:48.240 We haven't been keeping it real.

00:21:50.000 And so I think those walls are breaking down.

00:21:52.320 And more and more artists, consumers are saying, why can't that character go to church on that show?

00:21:58.240 Why can't there be a song that talks about faith?

00:22:01.160 So I think if you're a person who wants your entertainment separated from faith and spiritual expressions,

00:22:08.740 I think the last 10 years and the next 10 years will be the ultimate nightmare for you because there's no stopping it now.

00:22:13.880 The boundaries have been broken down.

00:22:15.220 And people are refusing to abide by those old rules where you have to separate your art from your life.

00:22:22.440 And, you know, I believe in God.

00:22:24.660 And I think that the most interesting pieces are the ones that, you know, explore what it means to be human and life after death and life meaning and all those things.

00:22:35.040 When we can't do that, then it kind of limits and makes art less interesting.

00:22:39.460 So for me, you know, I think I'm one of 90 percent that believe in God.

00:22:43.320 I think it's fine that we have our entertainment with a side, with a strong helping of God in the mix and faith and religion.

00:22:50.700 And if it becomes divisive, that's another issue that could happen.

00:22:54.520 But if it's in a way that causes us to think deeply about things in our lives and meaning, I think it's fine.

00:23:01.280 And that's such a good point.

00:23:03.740 That secular, that unreligious, that world where there's no faith discussion whatsoever, that's just made up. 0.88

00:23:12.660 That's totally fictitious.

00:23:13.900 And what are we afraid of?

00:23:15.060 Why are we so afraid to have our art reflect real life, to quote some rock music?

00:23:20.960 We're not going to take it.

00:23:21.980 We're not going to take it.

00:23:23.200 We're not going to take it anymore.

00:23:25.220 Mark, thank you so much for being here.

00:23:27.340 The book is really good.

00:23:28.460 I recommend it to everybody.

00:23:30.080 Rock Gets Religion.

00:23:31.920 Excellent.

00:23:32.420 Really good to have you here.

00:23:33.320 Mark Joseph, thanks so much.

00:23:35.280 We'll have to have you back again.

00:23:36.820 Thanks for having me.

00:23:37.680 How cool is that guy?

00:23:40.680 That he almost, I'm not a big fan of Christian rock, but he did make a compelling argument 0.99

00:23:45.120 that part of the reason that the Christian rock was so terrible is because it was this 1.00

00:23:49.860 ghettoized industry.

00:23:51.600 And now that we've taken over the mainstream, there's something really beautiful about that.

00:23:55.140 I've been saying this all along, that when the gatekeepers go away, a much better culture

00:24:00.660 emerges than the one that gatekeepers in Hollywood and New York have foisted on us for so many

00:24:06.080 decades.

00:24:06.440 We have to talk about the news.

00:24:07.580 We have a lot more to talk about, how everyone is oversimplifying the China situation, the

00:24:11.840 invasion on our southern border, as well as a moment of hope.

00:24:15.900 We have to turn, of course, to the leader of the future, our dear leader, David Hogg.

00:24:21.720 We will look at that as well.

00:24:23.480 But if you are not on dailywire.com, you just can't do it.

00:24:27.360 I'm sorry.

00:24:28.220 You need to go there right now.

00:24:29.180 It is only $10 a month or $100 for an annual membership.

00:24:31.960 If you already subscribed, thank you very much.

00:24:34.100 You help us keep the lights on.

00:24:35.500 What do you get?

00:24:36.100 You get me.

00:24:36.640 You get the Andrew Klavan show.

00:24:37.460 You get the Ben Shapiro show.

00:24:38.620 You get to ask questions in the mailbag coming up with Mr. Andrew Klavan himself.

00:24:41.820 It's going to be very good.

00:24:43.340 The Supreme Lord of the multiverse.

00:24:45.340 You can get all your mailbag questions in for tomorrow.

00:24:47.940 Make sure you get them in ASAP.

00:24:49.460 But again, none of that matters whatsoever.

00:24:52.960 You get this.

00:24:53.820 You get the leftist tears tumbler.

00:24:56.360 You know, I use mine every day.

00:24:57.720 I was without it for that week that I was in New York.

00:24:59.880 I barely made it back.

00:25:01.060 I barely made it back alive.

00:25:02.060 I was going to have to swim back.

00:25:03.460 I felt like I was in late stage Titanic without my leftist tears tumbler.

00:25:08.880 Don't put yourself in such danger.

00:25:11.340 Don't allow your family to be in such risk and danger.

00:25:14.560 Go to dailywire.com.

00:25:15.680 We'll be right back.

00:25:27.400 Big headline today for those following the economy.

00:25:30.040 Of course, nobody really follows the economy.

00:25:32.120 All we want to talk about is guns and sex and abortion and stuff because those are really juicy. 0.98

00:25:36.480 Mostly sex. 0.89

00:25:37.280 That's all anybody in this culture wants to talk about.

00:25:39.720 Different bathrooms and things like that.

00:25:41.280 But the big headline is that China is striking back with tariffs against the U.S.

00:25:46.460 This is the great trade war that we've heard about. 1.00

00:25:49.060 Trump, how could you be so stupid? 1.00

00:25:50.640 No. 1.00

00:25:51.260 Why?

00:25:51.720 The global trade is about to implode.

00:25:53.860 That isn't the case.

00:25:54.980 And there are a lot of people who are saying, we're going back to old economics and all tariffs

00:26:00.620 are terrible.

00:26:01.600 And we only need freer trade.

00:26:03.960 And even if the other guy doesn't have free trade, we're going to have free trade.

00:26:06.860 And the situation is much more complicated than that.

00:26:09.100 Economics is more complicated than little slogans.

00:26:11.880 So China's striking back.

00:26:13.040 They have tariffs targeting soybeans, commercial messenger planes, SUVs, beef, sorghum, a few

00:26:19.840 other things.

00:26:21.060 The tariffs are really pretty brilliant because they're intended to hit states that supported

00:26:26.780 Donald Trump.

00:26:28.120 So yeah, that's cute.

00:26:29.520 Good move, guys.

00:26:30.700 They want to hit us and they basically want us to lay off of their steel and aluminum tariffs.

00:26:35.440 But of course, the steel and aluminum tariff, which is basically targeted just to China,

00:26:40.340 is a legitimate response to their violations of World Trade Organization treaties.

00:26:45.060 China is not playing by the rules. 0.70

00:26:47.080 They've been violating the rules for a very long time and in a lot of ways.

00:26:51.480 So it's a perfectly reasonable response.

00:26:53.860 You can't say that what we currently have is free trade. 0.99

00:26:56.520 They're cheating and we're schmucks, basically. 0.98

00:26:59.780 We're the ones who have to deal with that. 0.99

00:27:01.760 And a lot of these tariffs are really just threats to say, clean up your act and stop

00:27:06.120 treating us poorly.

00:27:06.980 There are three major ways that China gets its hands on U.S. tech and cheats here.

00:27:12.180 It's called forced tech transfer.

00:27:14.800 The Wall Street Journal has a good rundown of this today.

00:27:17.860 It's not just that they're illegally subsidizing their steel industry and their aluminum industry,

00:27:22.300 though that's not good and that is in violation of global trade treaties.

00:27:26.640 They also steal our technology.

00:27:28.660 And this isn't just a slogan or something.

00:27:30.660 They do it in very specific ways.

00:27:32.640 American companies that do business in China have to share technology and data in return

00:27:37.240 for getting market access.

00:27:38.780 That's not free trade.

00:27:40.080 We have to give them our technology, which is very expensive to build.

00:27:43.260 We have to give them data, which includes a lot of information that I think nobody in

00:27:47.800 the United States wants to go over to China.

00:27:49.420 We have to just hand that over to them in order to have access to the market.

00:27:52.860 This costs the U.S. an estimated $30 billion each year.

00:27:56.460 Another way that they do this is joint ventures.

00:27:58.720 So, again, if you want access to the market, you need to partner with a Chinese company and

00:28:04.560 you have to produce things in China.

00:28:06.220 A good example of this is car companies.

00:28:07.980 If car companies want to sell in China and they don't want to have massive tariffs, they

00:28:11.520 have to produce the cars in China and they have to partner with a Chinese company.

00:28:16.340 And why is that?

00:28:17.900 Is it just to employ a few people at a company?

00:28:19.760 No.

00:28:20.180 It's because it gives the Chinese that technology.

00:28:22.560 So, the difference between private industry and the government in China is slim, if existent

00:28:29.120 at all.

00:28:29.980 So, when we partner with these companies, we're just giving them our technology.

00:28:33.860 And you might say, okay, well, what's the big deal?

00:28:36.100 With emerging technologies that are very expensive to create, that gives them an insane advantage.

00:28:42.140 Just think about Tesla.

00:28:43.540 How long did it take to develop the technology for Tesla?

00:28:46.560 How much money did it cost?

00:28:47.780 And then we say, okay, we want to sell Tesla in China.

00:28:50.400 They say, that's fine.

00:28:51.400 Give us everything.

00:28:52.260 You give us everything, then you can sell in China.

00:28:55.700 That's unacceptable.

00:28:57.180 And people on both sides of the aisle have been warning us about this for decades.

00:29:01.580 President Trump is doing something to combat it.

00:29:04.080 Another way is bureaucracy, licensing, red tape.

00:29:07.600 So, China forces, just to use one example, U.S. apps, cell phone apps.

00:29:13.060 If you want access to China, you have to store the data in China.

00:29:16.880 Which means you have to give the Chinese government access to this data.

00:29:21.140 Now, people are losing their minds over this minor Facebook issue.

00:29:25.340 Lefty heads are exploding because companies used Facebook appropriately and got some of our data.

00:29:32.320 You know, you upload all of your data to Facebook and then some company gives you a quiz. 1.00

00:29:36.540 You take the quiz and you say, okay, I'll give you all my data to take some stupid quiz. 0.96

00:29:40.140 And then they have their data. 0.99

00:29:41.680 They lose their minds over this, but China is demanding this from U.S. companies and we say nothing.

00:29:47.300 Why?

00:29:47.640 Because the left wants to attack Donald Trump.

00:29:50.520 Also, you have to do research and development on Chinese soil.

00:29:53.600 What's the purpose of that?

00:29:54.780 Stealing technology.

00:29:56.340 This is not some conspiracy.

00:29:57.700 This is not some secret plan of the Chinese government.

00:30:00.980 They're openly doing this.

00:30:02.200 They're doing this through their laws.

00:30:04.360 This is out in the open and we should do something about it.

00:30:07.080 This is not to say that we shouldn't be free traders.

00:30:09.160 Of course we're free traders.

00:30:10.300 Free trade is a wonderful thing.

00:30:12.120 It's lifted a lot of people out of poverty.

00:30:13.740 A lot of people out of poverty in China, by the way.

00:30:15.940 And it gives us cheap consumer goods and it's a really nice thing.

00:30:18.800 But people have to play by the rules and we shouldn't allow ourselves to be cheated.

00:30:22.420 And we shouldn't just use silly slogans and different isms to attack this when the issue is very complicated.

00:30:28.800 It's been going on for a long time.

00:30:30.260 And finally someone has the cofefones to do something about it.

00:30:34.940 That's not such a bad thing.

00:30:36.280 Moving on to the invasion of our country. 0.73

00:30:38.620 There's a group called Pueblo Sin Fronteras, People Without Borders.

00:30:43.800 And they're leading a thousand person strong invasion of the U.S.

00:30:47.380 Now I'll mention it's called Pueblo Sin Fronteras.

00:30:50.340 That is in a language that isn't the language of the United States.

00:30:53.380 So I'm not sure that this group really wants to assimilate.

00:30:55.760 So I'm no Nostradamus.

00:30:57.660 I'm no predictor of the future.

00:30:59.040 But I think if you come in shouting in Spanish, you might not want to assimilate to American culture. 0.98

00:31:03.580 This has been led all the way up from Central America.

00:31:08.300 President Trump has threatened Mexico to stop it before the caravan makes it to the border.

00:31:14.680 He's putting a lot on the table here.

00:31:17.120 He's saying if you don't stop this thing, we're going to renegotiate NAFTA and end a lot of your economic advantage.

00:31:22.840 And he's saying we might end aid to Honduras if they don't deal with this.

00:31:26.740 A lot of the caravan is coming out of Honduras.

00:31:29.720 The group, Pueblo Sin Fronteras, responded to these threats.

00:31:34.580 They said,

00:31:34.920 In the face of this bullying and these threats of mass violence, we continue to stand in solidarity with displaced people of all races, ethnicities and creeds, abilities and gender and sexual identities.

00:31:49.120 Do, do, do, do.

00:31:50.380 There's a little tiny violin.

00:31:51.720 I don't know how they got sexual identities in there.

00:31:53.540 There's a very simple case of people wanting to leave their country, which isn't terribly nice, and come to our country, which is very nice.

00:31:58.840 The trouble is they don't want to respect our laws.

00:32:01.860 So that's it.

00:32:03.440 That's the end of the story.

00:32:04.340 Illegal immigration is illegal. 0.99

00:32:06.380 That's not complicated at all.

00:32:08.480 This group obviously is a radical group, and they're trying to eliminate borders.

00:32:13.840 The group plans to turn themselves over at the border and apply for asylum.

00:32:18.400 Now, you would think that would be easy, right?

00:32:19.960 They go, they say,

00:32:20.660 Hey, police, we're here.

00:32:21.680 We've invaded your country. 0.97

00:32:23.400 You'd think we'd send them back, right?

00:32:24.940 No, we can't send them back.

00:32:26.380 There's a huge process, and usually they just stay there.

00:32:29.040 Catch and release is one of the policies that we use.

00:32:31.880 We just let them stay.

00:32:33.100 I will say, to not whip everybody up into hysterics, it is ironic that this is getting some play in conservative media.

00:32:41.700 It's not getting any play in the mainstream media, but it is getting some play with the president, thankfully, and on conservative media.

00:32:46.700 Because this happens every single day.

00:32:48.960 This happens every day in America.

00:32:50.600 We're worried about 1,000 people invading and crossing the border.

00:32:54.340 Border patrol apprehends 900 people per day coming into the United States.

00:32:59.460 900 people per day.

00:33:00.800 300,000 people a year.

00:33:02.200 If we're just looking at this as a political angle, which is the only way that Democrats are looking at this,

00:33:09.760 that means that between 688 and 807 new potential likely Democrat voters cross into our country every single day.

00:33:19.140 And all it takes is one push for amnesty, one executive amnesty, one path to citizenship, and those guys are voting for Democrats.

00:33:27.200 And at the conservative end, with data by Pew Research, that's 688.

00:33:32.760 At the high end, 807 new Democrat voters a day.

00:33:36.020 Is it any wonder that they keep encouraging these lawless caravans?

00:33:39.580 Another 2,000 people per day, by the way, overstay their visas.

00:33:42.860 That group is also likely to vote for Democrats.

00:33:45.200 Make no mistake about this at all.

00:33:47.880 People without borders, Pueblo Sin Fronteras, are trying to destroy America. 1.00

00:33:53.420 They are trying to destroy it.

00:33:54.940 A country without borders is not a country.

00:33:57.780 That it's land, it's something, but it's not a country.

00:34:01.120 It's not a country that has any respect for law.

00:34:03.940 It's chaos.

00:34:05.380 An America without borders is not America. 0.71

00:34:08.180 This is ironic because these people would destroy the very country that they're trying to enter.

00:34:12.980 They would destroy it.

00:34:14.640 This is what America believes.

00:34:16.500 That not people chanting in a foreign language and disrespecting our laws and invading our country 0.99

00:34:21.780 and disrespecting the people who have a right to govern themselves.

00:34:25.160 Americans believe that citizens ought to have the right to govern themselves.

00:34:29.300 Pueblo Sin Fronteras says, no, to hell with your democratic republic. 0.88

00:34:33.720 To hell with your enlightenment liberalism. 1.00

00:34:35.640 To hell with you. 1.00

00:34:36.620 To hell with Americans deciding how they're going to run their country. 1.00

00:34:39.520 We're going to tell you how to run your country. 1.00

00:34:41.280 We're going to destroy that country. 0.96

00:34:42.500 We're going to destroy the idea of a country if we have to do it.

00:34:46.320 People Without Borders is indistinguishable from all of these long-standing lefty groups.

00:34:52.340 George Soros has funded the Open Society Foundation for however long.

00:34:56.700 John Lennon sang about this.

00:34:58.240 Imagine there's no country.

00:34:59.620 Imagine there's no heaven.

00:35:01.100 Imagine no possessions.

00:35:02.760 Imagine, imagine, imagine.

00:35:04.480 It's a fantasy.

00:35:05.580 It's an absolute delusion.

00:35:06.800 And it's a delusion that's been tried.

00:35:08.960 We've tried this delusion for the entire 20th century.

00:35:11.780 And it has led to a lot of misery.

00:35:13.900 Death and misery.

00:35:15.140 It doesn't bring everybody up.

00:35:16.860 It brings the nice things that have helped the world.

00:35:20.420 That has been charitable and prosperous and free.

00:35:23.500 And an ideal and a beacon of liberty that stands, that statue in New York, stands with a beacon.

00:35:29.560 Aiming out to the rest of the world.

00:35:31.540 It brings all of those down.

00:35:33.400 It destroys those things.

00:35:34.500 It's a philosophy of failure.

00:35:36.620 But it's the delusion.

00:35:37.960 It's the imagining.

00:35:39.340 JFK and RFK, great Democrat politicians, lionized Democrat politicians, they frequently quoted a line.

00:35:45.660 They would say, you see things that are and ask why.

00:35:49.500 But I dream things that never were and ask why not.

00:35:53.360 And this is supposed to be uplifting.

00:35:54.900 This is the John Lennon line.

00:35:56.120 Imagine, imagine.

00:35:57.500 They tell us to dream.

00:35:58.720 They tell us to imagine.

00:35:59.620 They tell us to listen to the children.

00:36:00.760 What they don't know about that line, by the way, is that they think they're quoting George Bernard Shaw in a play called Back to Methuselah.

00:36:07.200 What they don't realize is they're quoting a character from Back to Methuselah, which is Satan.

00:36:11.940 It's the serpent in the garden.

00:36:13.480 That is the line that he tells to Eve before he tempts her and causes the fall of man.

00:36:17.960 You know, a little learning is a dangerous thing.

00:36:20.280 They quote the Shaw.

00:36:21.400 They don't realize they're really quoting Satan.

00:36:23.880 Imagine, listen to the children.

00:36:25.840 Imagine, imagine.

00:36:26.740 This is what we get when we listen to the children.

00:36:28.540 Well, at this point, it's like when you're when you're old and it's like, I don't know how to send an iMessage.

00:36:33.820 And you're just like, give me the phone and you take it and you're like, OK, let me handle it.

00:36:37.200 And you get it done in one second.

00:36:38.640 Sadly, that's what we have to do with our government because our parents don't know how to use democracy. 0.92

00:36:42.920 So we have to.

00:36:43.720 Coming up, a dangerous new millennial craze that has consumer products. 0.92

00:36:47.460 Giant Procter and Gamble scrambling viral videos of an Internet challenge, daring teenagers to eat Tide laundry pods for fun.

00:36:57.420 We've got the details.

00:36:58.620 The winter is over.

00:37:01.260 Change is here.

00:37:02.520 The sun shines on a new day and the day is ours.

00:37:05.240 Scorching their skin, snorting condoms and smoking alcohol on YouTube. 1.00

00:37:12.000 Now you can actually get global attention by being an idiot. 1.00

00:37:15.460 If you listen real close, you can hear the people in power shaking. 1.00

00:37:20.780 You're damn right I'm shaking.

00:37:22.460 That's terrifying. 0.95

00:37:23.380 I don't want people who just scream and yell about nothing ignorantly and then snort condoms and chomp down on Tide pods.

00:37:30.340 They shouldn't run this country.

00:37:31.860 Do not listen to the children.

00:37:33.280 Do not listen to them.

00:37:34.340 They are not the future.

00:37:35.620 Stop imagining.

00:37:36.780 Stop deluding yourselves and imagining this awful world.

00:37:40.440 It doesn't turn out well.

00:37:42.320 All right.

00:37:42.620 That's our show.

00:37:43.820 Come back tomorrow.

00:37:44.800 Get your mailbag questions in.

00:37:46.500 We have got a wonderful mailbag tomorrow and some other stuff.

00:37:50.360 But I don't want to ruin the surprise.

00:37:52.400 Come back tomorrow.

00:37:53.620 I'm Michael Knowles.

00:37:54.280 This is The Michael Knowles Show.

00:37:55.260 I'll see you then.

00:38:22.400 The Michael Knowles Show.

00:38:25.260 The Michael Knowles Show.

00:38:25.740 The Michael Knowles Show.

The Michael Knowles Show - April 04, 2018

Ep. 133 - Jesus： Behind The Music ft. Mark Joseph

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Summary

Transcript