Whatever happened to the libertarian moment? In this episode of The Michael Knowles Show, we will talk with Jason Stapleton, host of the liberty-focused show "The Jason Stapeleton Program," about what happened to liberty and why it s gone.
00:13:07.040The first thing I would ask you is, why do we have failed states in Libya and Iraq?
00:13:13.000Well, one could argue correctly that the reason we have those failed states is because of American foreign policy.
00:13:18.760We ousted both of those dictators, and we created the mess that's now over there.
00:13:23.080And I don't think anybody can look at the situation in America, the threat to terrorism today,
00:13:28.440and say we are a lot safer today than we were prior to 9-11.
00:13:32.300In fact, all of our efforts, all of our attempts to stabilize, to control, to oust foreign dictators and put in people that would be more sympathetic to the principles of democracy and liberty that we want to promote,
00:13:46.580quote, every effort has led to a greater destabilization of the region and more violence.
00:13:51.740And what I have said on my show repeatedly is, I don't know what the right decision is, but I know the wrong decision is to continue the same course of action that we've been on for the past, whatever, 15 years.
00:14:02.120And so what I have said is, let's try something radically different.
00:14:43.280It is the longest war, practically the longest war we've ever fought, the war on terror writ large, the war in Afghanistan.
00:14:49.540There are some positive things that have come out of it that can't quite be accounted for.
00:14:54.380The invasion of Iraq did lead to the denuclearization of Libya, which led to the de-Qaddafi-ization of Libya, which might not have been a good thing.
00:15:02.500But it was good when they got rid of their nuclear program.
00:15:44.860And who did the American people elect?
00:15:46.600Well, I, my, my gut feeling tells me, and when you talk about the American people, you're really talking about, I mean, I used to live in Kansas.
00:15:57.620And as I now live in L.A., which is very progressive.
00:16:00.660I mean, it's almost like being in a completely different country, because you have very different opinions as a collective based on where you live.
00:16:08.040And so, I think if I've got the pulse on the American people in general, I think people don't want to, I think everybody has been touched by this war in some way.
00:16:18.320They all know somebody who's gone or somebody who's been there.
00:16:21.040I think there is no appetite to send our men and women to fight and die when we don't understand what we're doing there, how we win, and what that looks like, and what we're trying to accomplish.
00:16:32.840And whether you look at Iraq or Afghanistan or what we're trying to do in Syria, I mean, there really isn't a clear plan on what it is we want to accomplish.
00:16:42.180All we're doing is spending blood and coin.
00:16:44.200And so, I think that the American people are willing to stand up and defend liberty, and they may be willing to even engage in things that I, as a libertarian, wouldn't agree with in terms of how we handle our foreign policy if they understand what it is we're trying to get done.
00:16:59.000And the biggest problem with foreign policy today, as it deals with our wars, is that there isn't any clear idea of what victory looks like and what we're going to do and how we're going to win.
00:17:08.100I think Trump ran on this idea that we ought to pull people out of Iraq, that it was a mess over there.
00:17:14.660And I think now that he's in power, they're the military-industrial complex and the powerful—
00:17:23.680Well, even the Lockheed Martins and the people who have a vested interest in making sure that wars continue, they spend a lot of money in Washington.
00:17:32.380And it's very, very hard to get around that sort of lobbying.
00:17:36.520And so, I think at the end of the day, he's become subjected to the same pressures that Obama and Bush before him were subjected to.
00:17:44.960Do you think, from the libertarian perspective, is he exceeding your expectations?
00:17:51.060I had very low expectations when he was elected, so he certainly exceeded mine.
00:19:02.160But I'm always reminded of the Lord Acton quote, which I'm going to butcher, but it's something to the effect of.
00:19:07.440The friends of liberty have always been few, and they have achieved their goals when they've achieved them by associating with auxiliaries whose own goals differ from the friends of liberty.
00:19:17.360And there's a risk involved with this.
00:19:20.480But we do it anyway, even though it could blow up in our face and really damage our, say, our integrity or our view of ourselves.
00:19:27.740Does the libertarian movement, is the path forward for the freedom movement or the libertarian movement to form its own party, have a viable third party, get 2% of the vote, 3%, 5%, try to grow it that way?
00:19:40.860Or is the goal to work within one of the two major parties and move the Republican Party more in its own direction?
00:19:53.860I don't, I don't, here's, I have a real problem.
00:19:58.600If you, if anybody who's listened to my show knows I absolutely have disdain for the libertarian party.
00:20:04.000I think they've done a terrible job of advocating the principles that we believe in.
00:20:08.440They've done an even worse job of getting people elected and putting them in positions of authority where we might be able to affect some change.
00:20:15.060On the same side, on that same token, it's very, very difficult to get liberty minded people and libertarians specifically elected under the GOP because the GOP simply funds the candidates that they want and makes it very difficult for guys.
00:20:30.940Austin Peterson, for example, is a libertarian who's now running as a Republican in Missouri against Claire McCaskill.
00:20:39.740I know him personally and, but he's, he's going up against the GOP front runner who's raised $10 million.
00:20:46.820And he just, it's very, very difficult for people to fight that.
00:20:50.040So I think if we want libertarianism and these, I, these ideas that I just, I've been talking about to, to ever gain traction, uh, we have to put some more people in power one way or another.
00:21:01.640The guys like Rand Paul, Justin Amash, uh, you know, Thomas Massey.
00:21:06.100I mean, those guys need help in Washington and we cannot mount a defense against entrenched Republicans and Democrats, uh, until we have more guys like that.
00:21:15.760I always wonder with the libertarian movement, which has, you know, vacillated in some ways, it's left wing in some ways.
00:21:23.380And for certain periods, it leans more right and they vote more Republican or, or with conservatives.
00:21:28.740I wonder if people ask, well, how come you don't just vote on issues?
00:21:33.620How come you don't just vote on the candidate?
00:21:38.240I wonder if it, it does make sense if there's a kind of logical, uh, conclusion that comes from saying, okay, I believe in God.
00:21:47.620I therefore support more freedom, uh, but I support this kind of strength and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:21:52.900And for the left, you know, I don't, I don't really know what they support, like pot and high taxes or whatever, whatever they, I don't know what they do.
00:21:58.960But if there's a kind of natural logical conclusion to those and does the libertarian movement find itself outside of that or too heterodox, will it be forced to go one way or the other?
00:22:12.700One of the things I love about libertarianism and the people who, who, who are call themselves libertarians is that they, they really do have a, a moral, like a moral foundation.
00:22:22.660So, so for example, I believe that things like rape and murder and, uh, and theft, see, I think those are morally wrong, not because God says they're wrong, which, which is fine for Christians if, if that's the route they want to take.
00:22:35.740But I believe that they're morally wrong because they violate someone's property rights.
00:22:39.500I think morality starts with property rights.
00:22:43.680But it does not, not to cut you off, but if, if, if that is the ground for it, if property rights are the inviolable moral standard, why, why is that?
00:22:57.080Well, because, well, first of all, it just starts with self-ownership.
00:23:00.660So we, when people talk about property rights, they think about my house or my car, but really we're talking about self-ownership and what, what is derived from that.
00:23:08.360So if I own myself, then clearly I would own the by-product of my labor.
00:23:13.840And if I own the by-product of my labor, I ought to be able to do what I want to with that, with, uh, with either the, so if I, if I chop down a tree and I build a chair out of it, well, that chair is now mine.
00:23:24.340I've, I've created it with my own hands and the by-product of my labor.
00:23:27.180Therefore, I ought to be able to sell it whoever I want to.
00:23:29.740I ought to be able to set it on fire if I want to.
00:23:32.100Uh, I ought to be able to do anything I want to with my own body and with, uh, with my own property.
00:23:36.960And so if, if there is another reason beyond just a religious conviction, then I would like, I would love to know it.
00:23:45.100To me, a religious conviction is just a, a personal belief in faith, which is fine.
00:23:49.660I have, I have no issue with that at all.
00:23:51.340I'm just saying from a moral perspective, the reason that these things are immoral is not because God says so.
00:23:58.900It's because it violates one's property rights.
00:24:03.840I do think, I think it's immoral because it violates property rights, but I think that that's a good measure of, uh, morality because God says so.
00:24:12.320And the reason I suggest this is that, uh, in no culture that did not have metaphysical thought and, uh, metaphysical concepts did an idea like libertarianism or liberty evolved.
00:24:24.980The, the, the, the, the Western concept of liberty came out of a Christian culture, a culture that was informed and shaped by Christianity.
00:24:32.260And I just wonder, since we're talking about metaphysical things, morality, freedom, justice, fairness, things that aren't tangible, they're not material.
00:25:05.040If, if there is a moral legislation, if there's a moral code, then who's the legislator?
00:25:11.120I, not to, uh, not to proselytize to you on my show, but I do wonder if that is a, if that is a point of libertarianism that hasn't been followed to its logical beginnings.
00:25:22.140Or if I'm just, if I'm just the, having a, giving you that old time religion.
00:25:27.400And, and, uh, no, I, it's, here's the beautiful thing about libertarianism is that libertarianism allows for any religion.
00:25:35.040It allows for any, I mean, frankly, it allows for socialism.
00:25:38.060If, if you want to be honest, I mean, if people want to collectively come together and pool their own resources, uh, as long as it's being done voluntarily, a libertarian is not going to object to that.
00:25:47.620It's, it's the voluntary nature of the action that's important to a libertarian.
00:25:51.160And so when we talk about religion, um, I, I have whatever religion one wants to believe.
00:25:56.900And if you want to go back to, uh, you know, talking about it philosophically, I think that that's, that's wonderful.
00:26:02.440One of the things I harp on about libertarians is they spend a lot of time in the philosophical.
00:26:06.720And I like to spend a lot of time in the reality of improving liberty and free markets and, and individualism, uh, of peace and tolerance over, uh, over trying to discuss the philosophical.
00:26:17.860And, uh, but there's, there's, there's a place for that too.
00:26:20.660So I think that inside the libertarian, inside of libertarianism, you are going to find Christians.
00:26:27.780You are going to find, uh, just a variety of people who believe in the idea that you own yourself and you own the byproduct of your labor, that you shouldn't hurt people and you shouldn't take their stuff.
00:26:39.260And so, um, if you can agree fundamentally with those principles, I think you're going to find a lot of friends inside the, the libertarian movement.
00:26:47.420And I think, frankly, if you disagree with some of those principles, as I do, you'll still find a lot of common ground and friends in the libertarian movement.
00:26:55.000I love your, uh, your dichotomy here between being up in the ether and the philosophical realm all the time and the practical effect of this, because we're talking about politics.
00:27:04.740We had Austin on the show, Austin Peterson, and I'm, I'm, I wouldn't call myself a libertarian exactly, but I'd vote for Austin in a heartbeat because I think he'd make the country better.
00:27:14.360And I think he'd move it in a direction that is more open to liberty.
00:27:17.480And I, I really encourage people in politics to avoid what Michael Oakeshott calls rationalism in politics and saying, well, who cares if it works in practice?
00:27:27.280Does it work in theory, you know, and really get down to the nuts and bolts and on the nuts and bolts of that, the last question.
00:27:33.160Uh, I'll, I guess we can talk about politicians writ large.
00:27:37.240Would you vote today for say Donald Trump's reelection or any of the Republicans in Congress or Senate for their reelection?
00:27:46.160Are they doing more good than they're doing harm?
00:27:49.300Or would you say we got to burn it down?
00:27:50.960We need a more liberty minded candidate.
00:27:53.520Well, I don't believe in burning things down.
00:27:55.760I've been, I, like I said, you know, I've, I've been in a couple of different war zones.
00:27:59.740And I think the idea that we would, we would burn something to the ground just creates, people don't understand what that means.
00:28:05.980Um, I have a very simple philosophy on, on whether or not someone gets my vote.
00:28:09.740Uh, I ask one question, do they believe as a primary, do they believe in liberty as a primary political value?
00:28:17.160And what I mean by that is just simply, do I believe that this candidate will constantly ask with every decision that he makes, does this move us closer towards liberty or further away?
00:28:26.400Now, because in politics, you, it's a lot of horse trading.
00:28:30.420So you're going to have to do some give and take.
00:28:32.780I, I can account, I'm not so much of a purist that I, I won't accept that.
00:28:36.640But what I want is I want at the end of the day, after the horse trading is done, I want to be further, I want to be closer towards tyranny and further towards statism or totalitarianism.
00:28:45.700And if I have, if I have a candidate, if I have a, or someone who's in office, who I believe really is trying to do that and who's asking that question, then they'll get my vote.
00:28:55.560And it's, it's funny that you bring up the example of the military because so many of my friends who have served or family members, they do trend a little bit libertarian.
00:29:04.440And I think it might be because that is a real practical job and career.
00:29:09.380You, you really see very quickly what's working and what's not working.
00:29:27.900You know, I was looking at my Twitter feed while we were playing that interview and I had women writing into me, led by none other than our own Alicia Krauss, writing into me and saying, oh, Michael, Jason Stapleton, hubba hubba.
00:29:41.620Yeah, so I, and I guess that's like the answer to the panel of deplorables.
00:29:46.040You know, I bring on for months and months and months just the most beautiful women in the conservative movement, but basically just for my own edification.
00:35:35.340That is over an order of magnitude increase.
00:35:37.840And a lot of this was to fund World War I.
00:35:40.780So they said, okay, look, we have this big war.
00:35:42.360We raised revenue during the Civil War, so we're going to raise revenue again by raising taxes tremendously, soaking the rich to pay for this war.
00:37:09.400We're not in the middle of a world war or something or a civil war that's bloodying up our entire country.
00:37:14.540They're just doing it for purposes of fairness or equality.
00:37:17.900And this is an amazing thing because apparently fairness is when you steal somebody else's money and then give it to a guy who isn't working as hard.
00:37:36.640And it's no surprise that during FDR's time, we see tax revenue as a percentage of GDP shoot through the roof.
00:37:44.080In the early days of the income tax, from basically the founding of the country, the 18th century, all the way up to the creation of the income tax here and there, you see up until I guess about 1940, you see the revenue, the tax revenue is something like 5% at most of total GDP.
00:38:04.300It's very low, between 3% sometimes, maybe up to 7% depending on how you're measuring it.
00:38:10.120But then FDR comes in, in the 1940s, this thing explodes.
00:38:14.780You get way, way higher rates, multiples higher rates, and it's stayed there ever since, you know, for the purposes of equality and fairness.
00:38:22.480And you paid your tax, well, I don't know, my audience probably, you haven't paid your taxes.
00:38:26.160But, like, you know, good people pay their taxes and everything.
00:38:29.100And because they, you know, for one, they don't want to be targeted by the IRS.
00:38:32.360And two, you know, okay, I live in this country, I have to pay my taxes.
00:38:54.880If I can work 50 hours a week to make $25,000, or I can work 100 hours a week to make $50,000, but I know that all of that extra wealth is going to be confiscated, why, there's no incentive to work.
00:39:09.200This is kind of the early stages of the Laffer curve.
00:39:12.420This is kind of the early inklings of this that conservatives would run with for years and which formed a lot of the Reagan revolution.
00:43:13.900It's so, you know, initially with taxes, you would pay your congressman.
00:43:18.100You would, there wasn't this massive bureaucracy of the IRS, and the Congress didn't really like that too much, you know, because then there's accountability there.
00:43:26.660We say, I don't like paying all these taxes.
00:44:47.140So I guess, you know, those Penn students, they really don't want people to find out that I will be speaking at Penn.
00:44:53.740So we shouldn't spread any more information about this, about this event that's going to take place on Thursday at 7 o'clock in John Huntsman Hall at the University of Pennsylvania.
00:45:04.840I don't want to upset the Penn students.
00:45:06.380So don't let anybody know that I will be speaking there on Thursday at 7 p.m. in John Huntsman Hall on the topic, Reasons to Vote for Trump.