The Michael Knowles Show - Ep. 187 - Why Won’t Anyone Talk About The Persecuted Christians？

00:00:00.000 A study undertaken this year shows that the persecution and mass murder of Christians

00:00:04.920 around the world is worse today than at any time in history, and Western governments are

00:00:10.400 failing not only to stop it, but even to acknowledge it. Father George Rutler has

00:00:14.600 just inaugurated the first shrine in the world dedicated to persecuted Christians at his church,

00:00:19.420 which is the same church where I wed sweet little Elisa just a month ago, the Church of St. Michael

00:00:23.680 in Hell's Kitchen. We will discuss the totally silenced Christians' plight, then the mailbag. 1.00

00:00:29.720 I'm Michael Knowles, and this is The Michael Knowles Show.

00:00:40.020 This is going to be a very politically incorrect show. Not politically correct. It is a really

00:00:44.660 strange thing right now. Even I didn't realize it, and I've been kind of tuned into these issues of

00:00:49.960 Christian persecution in the Middle East and around the world. Right now, Christians in the world are

00:00:55.560 the most persecuted faith group that there is. You wouldn't know that. If you talk to people in

00:01:00.520 America or in Europe, they always talk about Islamophobia, which Andrew Klavan, I believe, 0.97

00:01:05.540 wants to find as the irrational fear of having your head cut off. That's not politically correct. 0.89

00:01:10.740 But that's all you hear about. You don't hear about the Christians. It's silenced. We're talking

00:01:14.400 about how we need to bring Muslim migrants over. All we have to do is bring the Muslim migrants over. 1.00

00:01:18.040 We bring hardly any Christian refugees over, and the Christian refugees are the ones who are being 1.00

00:01:22.440 utterly decimated by Muslim militants throughout the Middle East and elsewhere. According to this

00:01:27.520 study by Aid to the Church in Need, they examined Christians in China, Egypt, Eritrea, India, Iran,

00:01:34.960 Iraq, Nigeria, North Korea, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Syria, and Turkey. Only Saudi Arabia has not

00:01:42.780 gotten significantly worse for Christians over the last few years, and that's only because it can't 1.00

00:01:47.260 really get much worse. It's not a thriving metropolis of Christians. The Christians have 1.00

00:01:53.900 been almost entirely wiped out of Iraq and Syria. We know we had Ji Sung-ho on the show,

00:01:58.360 the North Korean defector just a week or two ago, and he talked about how if you are said to be a

00:02:03.160 Christian in North Korea, you will be executed publicly and on the spot. No questions asked. 1.00

00:02:07.920 Gun pulled out, shoot you right in the head. This is a weird thing, and especially in the United States 1.00

00:02:13.460 and in Europe, I think we have this sense now, especially lefties here, have this sense that,

00:02:18.220 oh, Iraq and Syria, those are for Muslim people. That's not, the Christians aren't supposed to be 1.00

00:02:23.200 there. Those aren't for Christian people. But of course, Syria was the home of Christianity for so

00:02:27.960 long. All of, not all of them, but many of the early popes came out of Syria. Peter is from Bethsaida.

00:02:35.180 Paul had his conversion. He's, you know, he had the scales over his eyes, knocked off his,

00:02:39.820 knocked off his horse on the road to Damascus, or knocked off his, as he's going up to Damascus.

00:02:45.320 That's not in, that's not in, you know, Rome. That's not in Tours. That's not in England.

00:02:49.620 That's in Syria. But we have this, this idea that, you know, that that's for the Muslims. That's for 0.99

00:02:55.380 the Muslim people. All over the Middle East and Africa, the, the, there are some summary executions 0.61

00:03:01.640 of Christians, torture, crucifixion, all of these things. Not politically correct to say, but that's why 1.00

00:03:06.660 we brought on my priest and good friend, Father George Rutler. Father Rutler is, how do you even

00:03:12.820 introduce this guy? A singular figure in my reversion to Christianity. He is the pastor of

00:03:18.820 the Church of St. Michael in New York. He's the author of, I think, 700,000 books at this point.

00:03:23.680 He's a boxer. He's a painter. He's a terrific painter. He plays piano, plays violin. He, you know,

00:03:29.840 he's, he's just a true Renaissance man. I asked him one time, he was very kind to display my

00:03:36.160 political tome, Reasons to Vote for Democrats, a comprehensive guide in his rectory in New York.

00:03:43.460 And Father Rutler, I asked him, I said, how do you do all of this? How do you host TV shows and write

00:03:49.900 your columns all the time and write books and do that and that? And he looked at me, he said, don't

00:03:53.000 sleep. Fair enough answer. I have to take that advice. He stopped by to talk about the Christian 0.93

00:03:58.520 persecution. And as, excuse me, as happens with him, the conversation wandered a bit. Without

00:04:04.040 further ado, here is Father Rutler. Father Rutler, thank you so much for being here.

00:04:08.480 Delighted to do it.

00:04:09.680 Father Rutler, the last time I saw you, you were marrying me off.

00:04:13.080 Right. Well, it was a wonderful day. I really, really enjoyed it. I estimate, roughly, I've had

00:04:21.560 about 800 weddings. And they've, each one is like, like the first one. I, there's a lot

00:04:31.500 of work involved in it. People don't realize that, but it's a great joy to me.

00:04:35.520 It was so lovely. And it was so, I was so pleased that you did it and that we did it at the Church

00:04:40.000 of St. Michael. And I know some of the viewers of the show have seen photos that I've been posting

00:04:44.400 of it. Um, and it occurs to me right before I got married, I'm all nervous. I'm standing in the

00:04:50.260 rectory. I actually saw this shrine, the first shrine in the world, uh, dedicated to the persecution

00:04:57.460 of Christians. And, uh, it, it shocks me in two ways. One, uh, that there are so many persecuted

00:05:05.840 Christians, you know, and that, uh, nobody's really talking about this. And the other, that it's the first 0.53

00:05:10.380 shrine in the world dedicated to them. Uh, how did, how did it come about and why is nobody caring

00:05:16.580 about the persecuted Christians? Well, first of all, I, I have a good friend and a priest

00:05:22.260 from England, although he is actually a priest working and coordinated, as we say in canon law,

00:05:28.660 that is he's inscribed in a diocese in, in, in Vermont, but he's been on leave now to go and work

00:05:37.020 with the Christian emigres, uh, in, in Iraq. He works out of England, but he's back and forth to

00:05:48.780 Iraq. He's taking some, some doc, documentary films, which are stunning. The historic center of

00:05:56.220 Mosul, it was, it looks like Hiroshima after the bomb. And we don't see much of that. Uh, so,

00:06:05.700 uh, he, he is raising consciousness. He, he's organized a group called the Nazarean.org. N-A-S-A-R-O-E-A-N. 0.60

00:06:18.440 Uh, and they use the letter N, the Arabic letter, the NUM, it's called NUM in Arabic alphabet,

00:06:25.100 Nazarean, because the, uh, Muslim countries will not allow the use of the word Christian.

00:06:30.880 So they, they call Christians Nazareans. Jesus was from Nazareth. And, uh, these little 0.98

00:06:38.940 badges are to raise consciousness. It's sort of like, you know, the, a lot of people in

00:06:43.660 the second world war deliberately wore yellow stars to show their empathy for the persecuted,

00:06:50.420 Jews. Uh, and, um, the icon we're talking about was, uh, done by, uh, an Iraqi, uh, from the 0.95

00:07:05.040 area of Aradin, which in Arabic means, uh, or Aramaic. They speak Aramaic, which was the

00:07:11.260 language our Lord spoke, uh, means Eden. Uh, his house and their property and everything

00:07:17.540 were confiscated by the, uh, ISIS. So he had to take his family in, in, uh, exile to, uh,

00:07:26.220 Lebanon. Uh, and the icon shows the, the, the Virgin Mary dressed as an Iraqi bride. 0.94

00:07:34.900 The, uh, second question is, uh, you know, why, uh, has there been such little publicity?

00:07:41.920 Well, first of all, it's politically incorrect because the Western culture on the whole, I

00:07:47.220 think is very threatened by Islam, doesn't understand Islam. Uh, a lot of people, I think 1.00

00:07:53.840 of a lot of people of naive left-wing sympathies are following, replicating the same mistake that

00:08:01.480 was made in the 1930s by a lot of the Western intelligentsia who thought, well, Hitler is a

00:08:09.680 kind of crackpot, but, uh, at least he's anti-Bolshevik. So the enemy of my enemy is my

00:08:16.040 friend. And so they looked the other way about, uh, towards the, uh, Nazi atrocities, Kristallnacht.

00:08:22.600 They thought that would be, you know, that that led to the concentration camps. We have to remember

00:08:27.120 that a lot, a lot of the Western media, including the New York Times, ignored all the evidence on

00:08:35.320 the concentration camps. Uh, there was a very noble Polish, uh, Catholic layman, Professor

00:08:44.240 Jan Karski, uh, who eventually went into exile. He documented the concentration camps, what was

00:08:52.180 going on. He came to the West. Uh, he went to London. They didn't want to hear about it in

00:08:57.580 Whitehall. He went to, uh, Washington. He had an hour with Franklin Roosevelt. Franklin

00:09:02.840 Roosevelt ignored him, uh, was polite, but didn't want to hear this. He met with Felix

00:09:10.860 Frankfurter, who was the only Jewish member of the Supreme Court, uh, who just was angry.

00:09:17.760 And he walked around the room and said, uh, you know, he couldn't believe it. And later on,

00:09:25.080 he said, I didn't call Karski a liar. I just said that I couldn't believe him. Well, that's

00:09:31.320 what these people are doing. A lot of these people are doing today, because to admit what's

00:09:35.180 going on is to admit that with Islam, we're dealing with something different from what 0.99

00:09:41.060 Western bourgeois minds think is religion. You know, we so often hear that these extremists

00:09:49.560 are unrepresentative of the Quran. Well, read the Quran. It's right there. It's not the extremists.

00:09:56.760 It's the more moderate Muslims, God bless them, uh, who want really to integrate into Western 1.00

00:10:02.780 society or adopt virtues of Judeo-Christian society. Uh, they're, they're the, uh, they're 0.95

00:10:12.060 the eccentrics. Militant Islam represents the, uh, uh, authentic interpretation of the Quran.

00:10:19.260 And that's very politically incorrect to say, uh, but it's a, it's a fact. And to acknowledge

00:10:27.000 that what's going on in the Middle East, where you have countries where the Christian populations

00:10:31.460 are evaporating, right? In Bethlehem, the population, the Christian population, they're in the birthplace 0.94

00:10:39.800 of Christ vanishing. People do not want to admit it. And I think you just like, uh, just as in the 1930s,

00:10:48.300 you had people, you know, being, giving the past to the Nazis because they thought that they, that

00:10:54.320 Hitler and Stalin could fight it out among, between themselves, but they didn't. We had the, we had the 0.78

00:10:59.820 Ribbentrop pack, which upset the leftists in the West. Uh, so today we have people thinking that,

00:11:08.420 well, yeah, the, uh, the, uh, bourgeois liberal progressivists who are anti-Judeo-Christian

00:11:16.560 civilization, uh, they wouldn't put it that way, but they are. The way they want to, uh,

00:11:23.020 fragment the whole Judeo-Christian moral structure, they'll say, well, all right, Islam, 1.00

00:11:28.700 these people are kind of nutty, but, uh, they'll bring down Judeo-Christian society. 0.99

00:11:38.420 And I think, well, again, the enemy of my enemies, my friend, but as with letting, giving Hitler a 0.97

00:11:45.240 path, you don't understand when you do that, what a bacillus you are unleashing on the world. 0.75

00:11:52.620 Of course that, you know, it's interesting that you, you mentioned that this, this longstanding

00:11:57.480 conflict between Islam and the West. Hilaire Belloc, the great Catholic writer wrote about

00:12:02.600 this in the 1930s. He said, we're at a lull right now. Uh, things are going all right,

00:12:07.540 but within half a century or so, uh, Islam may start, uh, rising up against the West again, 0.80

00:12:13.340 and we're going to have to deal with it. And I saw there was a study by aid to the church in need

00:12:17.900 and the McLaughlin and associates, which showed that among American Catholics, the persecution of

00:12:23.300 Christians in the middle East and elsewhere ranks the lowest among their list of concerns and global 0.54

00:12:29.160 priorities ranking higher, our poverty, which I believe will always be with us. It's written

00:12:34.080 in a book somewhere and, uh, uh, climate change, climate change is a greater priority. And it,

00:12:40.680 I think it speaks to what you're talking about. There has been an ideological displacement or assault

00:12:45.360 on Judeo-Christian, uh, morality and Western civilization. And that ideological assault is

00:12:51.540 replacing it. You saw Dianne Feinstein grilling a judge, Amy Coney Barrett. And she said, you know,

00:12:57.800 I'm worried because the dogma lives loudly within you. Uh, there, there does seem to be a real battle

00:13:04.260 here. Um, I, you, you saw this firsthand, you you're in New York city. You've been there. You

00:13:09.900 were an eyewitness to the September 11th terrorist attacks. Uh, you were down there at the trade center.

00:13:16.760 Has the culture moved in any sort of better direction in the country or are we just sliding

00:13:23.900 toward further decay? No, no, I don't, I don't, I don't think, I don't think it has are, you know,

00:13:30.860 the difference between the theological virtue of hope, which is trusting in God, uh, and the humanistic,

00:13:40.020 uh, quality of, of optimism. Optimism is just wishing things will be well. Hope means knowing

00:13:48.200 things will go well if we trust in God, uh, and a long time. Yes. I say to my friends, you know,

00:13:54.400 this, our culture now is very decadent, but as an historian, I would say, uh, we can hopefully say 1.00

00:14:01.560 that, uh, maybe in two or 300 years, things will get better, but, but that's unless you intend to live

00:14:08.360 that long, that's not so much of a consolation. I belong to a few, I'm part Scottish. I belong to

00:14:15.140 Scottish societies that the Scottish tend to be, uh, you know, some of them generalization,

00:14:20.440 a little doer, a little surly. Yeah. Yeah. But the difference between a Scottish pessimist

00:14:26.260 and a Scottish optimist and a Scottish pessimist will say, ah, things couldn't be any worse than

00:14:31.240 they are now. And a Scots optimist says, oh yes, they can. But I think your people are like,

00:14:38.660 they do like the, uh, uh, the ostrich with his head in the sand. They don't want to admit what's

00:14:47.300 going on. Europe is learning. Europe is learning, but the hard way. I think you have some heroic

00:14:52.660 cultures, uh, where I think of, uh, Poland and, uh, and, uh, Hungary, uh, perhaps Croatia, some of the,

00:15:03.140 those, those countries that have suffered so vividly all through history, but most dramatically

00:15:10.400 in present, they know what they are dealing with. Others are comfortable. And you know,

00:15:19.020 as a matter of fact, you know, the statistics was of the, all the heads of the, uh, EU countries,

00:15:24.280 I think all the heads of the EU countries, at least six of them are childless. Wow. So, you know,

00:15:33.240 we have, you know, demagogues and I always, I loathe it when politicians say, we're doing this for

00:15:40.100 our children. Stop it. That's, that's demagoguery. Uh, but in Europe, it's worse because they don't

00:15:47.360 have any children to worry about. Yeah. We're just doing it for ourselves. They love a socialist

00:15:51.920 economy because it's fine. They, they, they, they can pass the debt on because they have,

00:15:56.840 you know, they, they, their own, they don't have children to inherit that, uh, debt. That's going

00:16:02.600 to, the burden's going to be on the body politic. Uh, so we can belabor the image of the decline

00:16:11.360 and fall of Rome, but, uh, the noble Roman Republic, uh, was transformed in, into the,

00:16:21.120 imperium. All right. You had em, noble emperors like Augustus later on, maybe, uh, Constantine,

00:16:28.020 but most of them, well, you know, they were, they were like Bill Clinton on a bad day. And,

00:16:36.500 and so what happened, what happened to, they didn't want, they got soft. They couldn't fight.

00:16:43.080 And then you had the Goths, the Visigoths, the Vandals, the Huns, listen to their names,

00:16:48.620 the Vandals, and the Huns. That gives you an idea. Doesn't, doesn't sound good. Doesn't sound

00:16:54.320 promising. It's not exactly the, it's not exactly the order of the Cincinnati. And, uh, but they

00:17:02.000 didn't want to admit. And, uh, the other people were well-trained and they, they could find a soft

00:17:08.580 spot and, and they moved in. And I think that's the way we are today. Uh, we, we have just, you know,

00:17:16.440 when you have a whole culture growing, uh, misshaping this, the younger culture, uh, when

00:17:26.080 you have that whole culture, basically their, their, their, their fondest memories are Woodstock.

00:17:30.900 And now they're the tenured professors and deans and presidents of universities. They've,

00:17:36.400 they've misformed the whole generation. So when an election goes, uh, contrary to what

00:17:42.500 they thought it would be, what they were taught, it would, told it was going to be in the bubble in

00:17:47.720 which they live, what happens? They have to go into psychiatric treatment, safe spaces and all that.

00:17:54.060 That's right. Coloring books and puppies. Yeah. Yeah. But when the barbarian invades, there are 0.98

00:17:59.820 no safe spaces. That is a fearful warning, certainly. And it is true. I saw this among my

00:18:07.740 friends who were still in graduate school and college and the campuses erupted. They were so

00:18:13.100 shocked and horrified when president Trump won. And there is this glimmer of light, I hope, in so

00:18:17.640 much as there has been deregulation, there has been a greater protection of religious freedom, of

00:18:23.460 individual liberty. And, and there are all of these judges. This has been the great fight all of last

00:18:29.040 week are the judges who are not only textualist and originalist and lean conservative, but dare I say

00:18:36.240 they're all Catholic. And this did actually raise a question to me. When you look back at American 0.62

00:18:42.220 history, I think it was Arthur Schlesinger said that anti-Catholicism is the deepest bias in American

00:18:47.560 history. And yet the leaders of the conservative movement have all been Catholic, it seems, or

00:18:53.120 largely Catholic. You had Russell Kirk, you had a member of your own flock, Bill Buckley, and you have

00:18:59.440 all of the judges on the Supreme Court. Why is that? Why does Catholicism seem to play some role in

00:19:05.300 American conservatism? Well, well, because Catholicism is rooted in, pardon the technical

00:19:13.280 language, a realist epistemology. That is to say, they have concrete truths. This contradicts

00:19:21.060 relativism, subjectivism. The paramount definer of that philosophy is Thomas Aquinas. And I've noticed

00:19:31.800 that Justice Gorsuch and now the nominee, Kavanaugh, both went to the same Jesuit prep school. Now,

00:19:45.780 I am not going to risk my life in defense of the Jesuits because I have my great disagreements with

00:19:52.840 them. Well, you know, Father Rutler, not to interrupt, but you know the difference between the Jesuits and 0.51

00:19:58.120 the Dominicans, don't you? The difference, of course, is that they were both Spanish orders. They were both

00:20:05.960 founded to combat heresy. The Dominicans to combat the Albigensians, the Jesuits to combat the Protestants. 0.57

00:20:12.060 And when was the last time you ever heard of an Albigensian? That would be the difference.

00:20:18.080 And bear in mind, there's a good example I was talking to you about, about culturism. Read about the

00:20:24.320 Albigensians, what they were doing. They would have destroyed Western civilization. They had to be put 1.00

00:20:30.000 down. They were put down harshly, but if they hadn't been destroyed, we wouldn't be here today. It's as

00:20:36.800 simple as that. It's like, you know, if the Holy Roman, if you didn't have Andrea Doria and Juan

00:20:42.660 Jobleski and these great Pius V, combating the Islamic, Charles Martel, even before that, 0.99

00:20:54.240 combating the Islamic invasion of Europe, we would not be here today. But, you know, I think the 1.00

00:21:03.500 Jesuits are a bit like the little girl with the curl in the middle of her forehead. When she was good, 1.00

00:21:08.180 she was very, very good. And when she was bad, she was horrid. They're very, very good 0.91

00:21:14.200 Jesuits, but I don't know, I'm not sure if they're a dying breed or not. But there is this respect for

00:21:20.720 classical Aristotelian Thomist reality, and that's lost in a subjective culture, which is disintegrating

00:21:34.220 by its own lack of substance. So if you live in a subjective culture when truth is whatever you

00:21:41.580 want it to be, what happens? You know, a boy can go into a girl's locker room and say that he's a

00:21:48.440 girl. Fine. Why is this being promoted? I have to say, I live in New York City. I see millions of

00:21:58.260 people here. I live on 34th Street, which is the craziest street in the universe. I have never

00:22:04.480 encountered a transgendered. Maybe they're so well-cosmeticized that I don't recognize it. But 0.96

00:22:11.740 why? It's such a minute percentage of the population. Why is this being promoted?

00:22:17.120 Why is this the national debate?

00:22:19.200 Simply because it's another barb in Judeo-Christian, the Judeo-Christian moral structure. The retired 0.86

00:22:28.520 head of psychiatry, Johns Hopkins, is not a witch doctor. He has said that telling a child, a boy,

00:22:36.460 that he could be a girl or a girl, is child abuse. This is a scientific fact. In the same way,

00:22:43.700 abortion is anti-scientific. It denies the reality of the humanity of the unborn.

00:22:50.140 Human life.

00:22:51.660 Of the unborn. But no, I just mentioned that Casey decision in Pennsylvania, that being free means

00:23:01.960 being able to define your own concept of liberty and the meaning of the mystery of life. You know,

00:23:09.160 that sounds like some cheap opera, sweet mystery of life. The wonderful poet Anthony Kennedy.

00:23:14.560 Yeah. My beloved friend, Justice Scalia, really devastated that just by mockery of it. But

00:23:25.000 who wrote those words? Justice Kennedy, who's a Catholic. So just because I'm a Catholic doesn't

00:23:30.880 mean that they're going to be heirs, or they may be heirs, but doesn't mean that they continue to

00:23:36.360 subscribe to a realist philosophy of the moral order. I mean, Edward Kennedy claimed to be a

00:23:45.540 Catholic. Go down the list. In fact, it's almost an indictment of politicians to say that when they

00:23:53.900 loudly profess that they're Catholic, there is something wrong with that. 0.98

00:23:58.100 You have to wonder what's really going on.

00:24:00.320 So there's no great consolation there. We have an interesting phenomenon now whereby a lot of the

00:24:08.360 evangelicals have been promoting Catholic nominees for the Supreme Court because they see that there's

00:24:16.560 a common bond there. Theologically, there are problems, but there's a common bond there in their

00:24:22.860 belief in the integrity of Scripture, divine revelation, and objective morality. But you have

00:24:31.660 a lot of Catholics who are Catholics in name only. The same thing, we have a lot of Jews who are Jewish

00:24:37.340 in name only. I mean, this is Ginsburg.

00:24:41.040 Oh, yes. Elena Kagan.

00:24:42.340 Yeah, but I wouldn't like to have her talk to the chief rabbi about her stance on moral issues. But it's also interesting that the media now just recognizes that the Catholic Church is probably the last voice of this, of realism, moral realism. And that's why it has to be brought down.

00:25:06.340 But you don't hear people, they'll say, well, why are there so many Catholics on the Supreme Court? Now, what would happen if somebody said, why are there so many Jews on the Supreme Court?

00:25:19.440 The Jews are overrepresented in terms of the percentage of population. God bless them. When somebody says that, there's legitimately an odor of anti-Semitism there.

00:25:30.380 But with Jew, Catholic, Protestant, whatever, there should not be a test of religion. And the only disappointment I had in that very nice woman, good woman, Barrett, is there anything?

00:25:44.880 Amy Coney Barrett, yeah, Judge Barrett.

00:25:47.300 Barrett. She should have just said to that lady senator. 1.00

00:25:53.060 Dianne Feinstein, yes.

00:25:54.160 The senatrix of California. She should have just, instead of trying to defend herself, said, I'm sorry, but I am a constitutionalist.

00:26:08.800 And I will not be a subject to a religious test.

00:26:17.480 Right, right, of course. You know, and I must tell you, Father Rutler, I'll have to let you go because I've taken up too much of your time.

00:26:24.160 I'm already, but hearing you say that, it really makes me think that the dogma lives loudly within you.

00:26:29.080 It really makes me echo the senatrix from California's sentiments. 0.92

00:26:34.120 Before I let you go...

00:26:35.320 Well, the best way to handle some of these people is just to mock them.

00:26:38.080 We have false... 0.93

00:26:40.100 The devil's the prince of lies, and what withers him is to mock him.

00:26:45.280 If we take him too seriously, then we give him strength.

00:26:48.620 But I'm told, I am told now that there are coffee cups out that say, the dogma lives within me.

00:26:56.600 That's a good... I'll have to get it on a t-shirt or something.

00:26:59.800 You know, it's... I must say, I always... I listen to your homilies when I'm not in New York, and I can't go to the Church of St. Michael.

00:27:06.540 And people can listen to them like a podcast, which I recommend that everybody does.

00:27:11.320 And they can get your columns, your weekly column, from the Church of St. Michael and in Crisis Magazine.

00:27:16.180 By my last count, you've written about 300,000 books in your life.

00:27:20.140 Is there any new book coming out?

00:27:21.780 Where can people find more of your writing?

00:27:24.320 Well, actually, this summer I have five coming out.

00:27:26.540 No, four are of a set.

00:27:30.920 This was not my idea.

00:27:32.740 A group of businessmen got together.

00:27:36.020 These are a collection of my pastoral columns over the last 15, 20 years.

00:27:42.480 And they're in a box set, leather-bound with silk ribbons.

00:27:47.000 And the advertisement I read, to my astonishment, celebrating the life and legacy of Father Rutler.

00:27:52.580 It sounded like an obituary.

00:27:53.800 I'm glad to hear you're still walking around and talking.

00:27:57.780 The only thing lacking was, you know, in lieu of flowers, please send.

00:28:02.480 Please buy this book collection.

00:28:04.580 And then Ignatius Press is bringing out a collection of my essays.

00:28:11.560 But I'm a parish priest.

00:28:12.940 I'm here in the part of Monatine called Hell's Kitchen, which indicates something of the culture.

00:28:18.620 So I only write these things obliquely.

00:28:21.460 My prince arrived today.

00:28:23.420 I said, well, I've got, I heard confessions.

00:28:27.480 That's my job.

00:28:30.340 But through the wonderful gift now of communications, we can reach a lot of people.

00:28:35.840 Well, I hope at some point I can match your volume of output.

00:28:39.560 You know, you have five books coming out this summer.

00:28:41.720 I had one book coming out in my entire life, and it didn't have any words in it.

00:28:45.300 So maybe I'll be able to amplify my output.

00:28:50.180 Well, really, the advantage of writing a book without words is it would be very hard to be sued for plagiarism, I suppose.

00:28:59.320 Father Rutler, I kid you not.

00:29:01.420 I'll tell you that I thought on your, you should do an audio version of that with music by John Cage.

00:29:08.260 That'll be very nice.

00:29:09.340 Perhaps you can conduct the arrangement of 433 by John Cage.

00:29:15.180 You know, I kid you not.

00:29:17.120 There was actually a guy who wrote an anti-Trump blank book.

00:29:20.840 I use right liberally.

00:29:22.040 And it was another blank book called Reasons to Respect Donald Trump or something like that.

00:29:27.320 And he threatened in the Washington Post to sue me for plagiarism, to which I told him I stole nothing.

00:29:33.660 I promise you, sir, I stole nothing.

00:29:35.960 Father Rutler, I've taken up all of your time.

00:29:37.860 I'm sure there are many masses to say and confessions to give in Hell's Kitchen.

00:29:43.680 So I'll let you go.

00:29:44.380 We'll have to have you back because you are famous on this program.

00:29:47.100 I quote, and I'll use the word borrow, really, you know, the word is steal, all of your insights regularly.

00:29:54.520 So we'll have to bring you back so that you can give them directly.

00:29:57.780 Well, hello to everybody out on the wrong coast.

00:30:01.960 Out in la-la land.

00:30:03.560 Father Rutler, thank you so much for being here.

00:30:05.200 And we'll talk to you soon by phone or I'll see you in New York.

00:30:08.080 All right.

00:30:08.680 Thank you.

00:30:09.540 All right.

00:30:09.960 We're going to have to bring Father Rutler back because I steal from him so regularly.

00:30:13.360 I so regularly, maybe I'll say borrow, lines from his columns and talking to him and listening to him.

00:30:20.520 So I'll have to bring him back and then you get the real thing.

00:30:22.440 You don't need to go through me.

00:30:23.740 And maybe I'll have him answer, you know, all my mailbag questions are always Catholic, too.

00:30:27.000 So I'll bring him on instead of, you know, this kind of paltry lay Catholic giving you answers. 1.00

00:30:33.020 If you're on Facebook and YouTube, I'm sorry.

00:30:34.620 We have a lot of mailbag to get to today.

00:30:36.020 And they're not all Catholic.

00:30:37.040 Some of them are very important, urgent public policy questions.

00:30:40.460 But if you're not on DailyWire.com, you can't ask questions in the mailbag and you can't keep watching.

00:30:45.880 You can only keep listening.

00:30:47.020 Go to DailyWire.com.

00:30:48.400 Why?

00:30:48.860 Well, you get me.

00:30:50.180 You get the Andrew Klavan show.

00:30:51.620 You get the Ben Shapiro show.

00:30:52.960 You get to ask questions in the mailbag.

00:30:54.320 You get to ask questions in the conversation.

00:30:56.380 None of that matters.

00:30:58.380 This is the Mark Duplass vintage today that I'm sipping on.

00:31:02.440 The Mark Duplass 2018.

00:31:04.680 It's really, it's a young wine.

00:31:10.600 It's a new wine.

00:31:11.720 It's not, it hasn't, it hasn't really aged for a while, but something tells me it's going to age just fine.

00:31:16.940 Go get your Daily Wire leftist Tears Tumblr.

00:31:20.180 Go to DailyWire.com.

00:31:21.000 We'll be right back with the mailbag.

00:31:32.300 All right, let's get into the mailbag.

00:31:33.820 We are, as usual, tight on time, so we'll just fly through them.

00:31:37.320 First question from Garrett.

00:31:38.900 Who do you prefer?

00:31:39.860 Thomas Jefferson or Alexander Hamilton?

00:31:42.620 Alexander Hamilton.

00:31:44.020 It's a simple question.

00:31:45.000 I like them both.

00:31:46.100 I'm not disparaging Thomas Jefferson.

00:31:48.140 He's great.

00:31:48.880 We're Americans because we have both Alexander Hamilton and Thomas Jefferson, but Hamilton's better. 0.86

00:31:54.980 He's the better one.

00:31:55.620 He's got the better story.

00:31:56.460 He's got the better thoughts.

00:31:57.560 He was more important, and I love him.

00:31:59.320 He's great.

00:31:59.700 And also, you know, when was the last time Thomas Jefferson got a popular glib musical made about him, huh?

00:32:05.700 I don't know.

00:32:06.220 I don't remember that.

00:32:07.280 From Kyle.

00:32:08.240 Michael, what is this Alexander Pope quote about nature being art unknown to thee?

00:32:13.540 Funny you should ask.

00:32:14.460 I do quote that a fair bit.

00:32:15.800 Funny you should ask about that quote.

00:32:17.100 That quote, the whole quote is,

00:32:19.660 All nature is but art unknown to thee, all chance direction which thou canst not see, such that in the logic of the universe, as it unfolds, there is providence around us.

00:32:30.640 Things that we think are coincidences might not be coincidences, or there might be more than coincidences.

00:32:36.740 And that, I first read that on the cover of the first Ruttler book I ever read, which sort of introduced me to the guy.

00:32:44.960 It was pivotal in my reversion to Christianity from vague atheism and vague agnosticism.

00:32:50.740 And the funny thing about Pope is that he has these great lines.

00:32:54.780 He has wonderful little couplets, you know.

00:32:57.220 Hope springs eternal in the human breast, these sort of things.

00:33:00.820 But at the end of all of his poems, there's just like grave heresy.

00:33:04.040 So he's really good line by line, and then poem by poem, don't believe as much as you would.

00:33:09.760 But that's a great line.

00:33:11.320 I use it all the time, and I do believe that that is certainly true.

00:33:14.980 Next question from Tan.

00:33:17.360 Dear Michael, in the current climate, this might be a brave thing to ask and an even braver thing to answer.

00:33:22.640 But here goes.

00:33:23.340 Isn't abortion also a natural selection type way to eliminate liberals from our society? 0.98

00:33:29.820 I still feel it's unequivocally murder and will continue to fight for their innocent lives. 0.96

00:33:34.600 But perhaps part of the left's problem is that they're okay with killing their progeny.

00:33:38.480 Please just call me Tan. 0.93

00:33:39.720 Thanks.

00:33:40.260 Okay, Tan.

00:33:41.540 Well, all right.

00:33:42.840 So you're saying that it's murder, and then you're saying, but that's not so bad, is it?

00:33:47.860 I don't know. 0.89

00:33:48.500 Are you going to go out and murder liberals? 1.00

00:33:50.460 Are you going to go and kill them? 1.00

00:33:52.320 One of the arguments that really brought me over from supporting abortion into being pro-life 1.00

00:33:56.680 was from a bioethicist I was having lunch with, and I gave all those stupid freakonomics arguments 0.99

00:34:01.220 for why abortion's great. 0.99

00:34:03.040 And she said, which of these arguments is not an argument to go kill ethnic minorities 0.93

00:34:06.620 in the inner cities who are young men? 0.98

00:34:08.780 I said, oh, yikes, that's tough.

00:34:10.220 So what do you think?

00:34:11.220 I mean, yeah, there is a sort of irony that these lefties who put all of their hope into politics

00:34:16.540 seem to be killing off their progeny.

00:34:18.640 But I don't think that's something we should celebrate, you know.

00:34:21.460 For the left, everything is about politics.

00:34:23.720 It's their god.

00:34:24.440 It's the god they worship.

00:34:25.260 We don't worship that god, hopefully.

00:34:27.440 We've got other things going on.

00:34:28.680 So we don't want to kill them. 0.60

00:34:29.780 We don't want to see them killed, you know. 0.58

00:34:31.960 Hope springs eternal in the human breast.

00:34:33.980 So where there's life, there's hope.

00:34:35.820 And we should try to bring them up.

00:34:38.000 And that way, we'll have more conservatives.

00:34:40.680 We'll be able to convert them.

00:34:42.700 At one time, Governor Mitch Daniels, I was talking to him.

00:34:46.000 And we asked, this was in 2012.

00:34:49.380 We said, you know, everything's looking so bleak.

00:34:51.860 Is the West over?

00:34:53.520 I mean, how are we ever going to defeat the forces of leftism?

00:34:57.100 And he said, well, there are two ways to do it, Michael.

00:34:59.440 You can either persuade them or you can outbreed them.

00:35:02.220 And the latter is much more fun.

00:35:04.020 Good advice. 0.98

00:35:05.180 You know, we've got to be pro-life even if, I suppose, we could win more elections if we slaughtered all the lefties. 0.94

00:35:11.240 But I don't think that'd be a good idea. 0.88

00:35:12.780 From either Michele or Michel.

00:35:15.820 I can't tell which one that is.

00:35:17.060 How do you feel the Bible addresses pacifism?

00:35:20.280 As a conservative, I have been very curious about this because of passages like, turn the other cheek.

00:35:25.640 Thank you for your time.

00:35:26.920 And veritas vos liberabit.

00:35:30.800 I think there are too many pacifists in the church militant.

00:35:34.080 That's what I think.

00:35:34.920 I think C.S. Lewis spelled this out very well in an essay, I think, called, Why I'm Not a Pacifist.

00:35:39.800 One should turn the other cheek, of course.

00:35:42.340 This is a very abused line of scripture, abused in particular by the political left.

00:35:48.000 To turn the other cheek is an act of moral defiance and moral dignity.

00:35:53.740 That when some man hits you or disrespects you or insults you, he degrades himself.

00:35:58.360 And he degrades himself because you won't allow yourself to be degraded.

00:36:01.520 You will allow your flesh to be mortified and for that suffering to sanctify you.

00:36:05.760 This is not an instruction to let the cruel rape the earth.

00:36:10.260 That's not what our Lord is telling us to do.

00:36:13.260 So C.S. Lewis spells it out in a few different ways.

00:36:16.800 But pacifism is pretty self-defeating.

00:36:19.680 If in the sort of lefty version of just be nice, man,

00:36:24.580 there was a great theologian who described most American churches and most American sermons and homilies as saying,

00:36:31.320 I would possibly suggest that you try to be nice.

00:36:33.840 But in that, if you're supposed to love everybody and be kind to everybody,

00:36:38.260 if person A is attacking person B, then to love person B necessarily requires doing violence to person A.

00:36:45.280 If you're going to have pacifism, peace on earth, which isn't going to happen anytime soon,

00:36:50.760 then you need a whole nation of pacifists.

00:36:53.980 The trouble is, when you have a nation of pacifists, the barbarians come in and destroy them. 0.91

00:36:58.340 And, you know, there are, as Father Rettler said, there are no safe spaces when the barbarian invades. 0.83

00:37:03.900 Excuse me.

00:37:04.780 Many other good arguments for it.

00:37:06.460 You should check out C.S. Lewis's essay on it.

00:37:08.940 It's a pretty good one.

00:37:10.000 And also just be aware, you know, it's that Chesterton line,

00:37:13.320 that heresy is not the promotion of vice, it's the promotion of virtue to the exclusion of all the others.

00:37:17.920 One virtue to the exclusion of all of the others.

00:37:19.840 So you might say, ah, yes, we should be really nice and meek.

00:37:23.640 That's one virtue.

00:37:25.280 But what about prudence?

00:37:26.740 What about judgment, the exercise of judgment?

00:37:30.640 What about, you know, not letting the cruel rape the earth?

00:37:33.440 You've got to keep these things in balance.

00:37:35.340 And there's nothing lovely or nice or kind or compassionate about letting poor innocent people be run over.

00:37:41.900 From Chris.

00:37:43.080 Good day from South Africa, Michael.

00:37:45.180 I know you are the conductor of the Trump train.

00:37:47.720 Choot, choot.

00:37:48.240 My question is, what action of Trump would cause you to stop supporting him? 0.77

00:37:52.560 Well, Chris, I think at this point if the president were to shoot a man on Fifth Avenue,

00:37:57.500 he probably still wouldn't lose my vote.

00:38:00.220 And I mean that because he's been so good.

00:38:03.600 He's been so good.

00:38:04.400 And I don't really care what lefties think of me.

00:38:07.660 I don't really care what people at cocktail parties think of me.

00:38:10.320 I don't care what fancy people who, you know, read really old leather-bound books think of me.

00:38:15.640 I don't care.

00:38:16.380 What I care about is the liberty.

00:38:17.640 And I think some people get, especially disproportionately people who are in the media, conservative and left, 0.99

00:38:24.680 they're so afraid of supporting Trump because they think they'll be thought stupid or uneducated or uncouth or, you know, not classy or not whatever. 0.99

00:38:34.680 I'm not worried about that. 1.00

00:38:37.220 Who cares?

00:38:37.640 Who cares what CNN thinks of you?

00:38:39.200 I care about the liberty.

00:38:40.300 And Trump is doing a great job on that.

00:38:41.920 He's doing a great job protecting life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness and property.

00:38:47.200 He's standing up for the country.

00:38:48.720 So there are very few things.

00:38:49.820 I mean, I suppose if he reversed his entire agenda, that would get me to not support him.

00:38:54.040 But I don't really see that coming.

00:38:55.580 He's been a reliable conservative.

00:38:57.600 He's been much more reliable as a conservative than perhaps some of our recent Republican presidents, which is maybe surprising.

00:39:05.520 But the guy, you know, I don't put my trust in princes.

00:39:09.440 I don't put my faith in princes.

00:39:10.780 So I don't really care.

00:39:11.700 If he reversed his agenda tomorrow, then, okay, I guess we'll turn on him.

00:39:15.060 But it doesn't bother me.

00:39:17.020 I think for some people who don't like Trump or were never Trump or whatever, they take the presidency so personally.

00:39:23.460 They say, oh, no, I don't care.

00:39:25.260 The president's not my pope.

00:39:26.700 The president is, I don't worship the president.

00:39:28.640 I don't identify with the president.

00:39:30.780 The president is doing good things in his job.

00:39:32.940 As long as he's doing good things, I think that's great.

00:39:35.360 If he starts, you know, being a big liberal Democrat, we'll get a new president.

00:39:40.060 Next question from Colleen.

00:39:41.100 Shapiro didn't take my question for the mailbag this week, so I'll have to settle for store brand Ben.

00:39:46.620 Thank you, Colleen.

00:39:48.400 How would you respond if a person called the Founding Fathers terrorists a la the Boston Tea Party?

00:39:53.900 I might be tutoring some kids that this person teaches in the coming school year.

00:39:57.780 What questions could I ask the kids that would give them an opportunity to form a different opinion about our Founding Fathers?

00:40:03.740 Thanks.

00:40:04.500 P.S. I secretly like your show.

00:40:06.600 Don't tell anyone.

00:40:07.520 I won't tell anyone.

00:40:08.220 I won't tell Ben.

00:40:08.740 Yeah, I don't, what should I tell them?

00:40:11.240 I don't know. 1.00

00:40:11.640 The suggestion that the Founding Fathers were terrorists is asinine, so I don't, I wouldn't even respond to it because it's so stupid. 1.00

00:40:18.640 Even the, you're referring to the Boston Tea Party as some act of terror. 1.00

00:40:23.180 When we think of acts of terror, we think of violating the Geneva Convention, right?

00:40:27.180 Targeting civilians in acts of war.

00:40:30.180 Torturing, maiming, killing civilians.

00:40:31.860 What the American patriots did at the Boston Tea Party is dress up like Indians and throw some tea in the harbor, not even that much tea. 0.98

00:40:41.020 How droll.

00:40:41.860 What a funny little protest.

00:40:44.000 That was that terrorism.

00:40:45.380 By the way, the Americans, because it was a conservative revolution, they had a total respect for decorum, for law, for behaving like a gentleman, for higher virtues, for higher principles.

00:40:58.700 One time, General Washington condemned a man of his own guard to death because that man robbed some people during the war.

00:41:06.780 He plundered some people, stole some things.

00:41:08.760 And he condemned that man to death because he would not be a terrorist.

00:41:12.520 He would not be a villain or a barbarian.

00:41:15.380 He was going to fight like a gentleman because he was an upstanding man.

00:41:18.740 The men who fought for the American Revolution, who won our freedom and won our country, were some of the most upstanding men in all of history.

00:41:26.700 Compare them to us today.

00:41:28.100 Compare them to our culture today.

00:41:29.220 It's far degraded.

00:41:30.420 We would be the barbarians, right?

00:41:31.760 We would be more likely to fit that category.

00:41:34.840 But no, there's no argument for that at all.

00:41:36.720 And this is another one of these examples.

00:41:38.400 I've been talking about it recently with that she Guevara, you know, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, and she, she Guevara, you know, and she doesn't know any, it's not what she doesn't know that gets her into trouble.

00:41:54.280 It's what she knows for sure that just ain't so.

00:41:56.700 So when you see this on campuses, I saw this at Yale when I was there, that instead of the old math, history, English, those liberal arts would be pushed out a little bit.

00:42:05.720 And what would start to take over were critical studies departments, which are not, they're not traditional liberal arts.

00:42:12.580 They're just ideology, basically.

00:42:14.760 So you have women's gender and sexuality studies, ethnicity, race, and migration studies.

00:42:20.920 And they were just ideology.

00:42:22.760 You don't learn a lot of facts or details or names or dates.

00:42:26.060 You just learn the narrative.

00:42:27.460 And that's an example of that.

00:42:28.760 Someone might have this narrative, this ideological narrative that the founding fathers were somehow terrorists.

00:42:34.280 One question you could ask is, what's an example of that?

00:42:39.000 They'll be silent.

00:42:40.320 Next question from John.

00:42:41.500 How much more time?

00:42:43.140 One or two more.

00:42:44.280 I'll do one or two.

00:42:45.060 Tops.

00:42:45.680 That's it.

00:42:46.040 I promise.

00:42:46.940 From John.

00:42:47.880 Any man who voices approval at Ariana Grande's art immediately forfeits the right to criticize the manly sport of soccer or to question the masculinity of soccer fans.

00:42:57.920 Fair point.

00:42:58.560 Absolutely right.

00:42:59.600 Next question.

00:43:01.040 From Sally.

00:43:01.980 Dear St. Michael, guardian angel, during last week's mailbag, someone asked about purgatory and where they could find proof in the Bible that purgatory existed.

00:43:10.960 You pointed to Mark 3.29 as a piece of evidence that purgatory exists.

00:43:15.380 You said you didn't have time in the episode to get into why blasphemy against the Holy Spirit was unforgivable.

00:43:20.360 But I was hoping you'd have time in this episode to explain why blasphemy against God or the Son of God can be forgiven, but why blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is evil and unforgivable.

00:43:29.100 It doesn't make sense to me that blasphemy against two of the Holy Trinity could be forgiven, but why it would be unforgivable to commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, especially since the Holy Trinity is co-equal with one another.

00:43:41.340 Thanks, Sally.

00:43:41.900 This is a tough question.

00:43:43.220 It's an enigmatic verse in the Bible, which is when Christ says, you'll be forgiven for blasphemy against me or my Father, but not against the Holy Spirit.

00:43:52.420 If you blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, that will not be forgiven.

00:43:55.000 So why is that?

00:43:56.460 It doesn't seem to make a lot of sense until you realize that it's true by nature.

00:44:02.640 By nature, that's the case.

00:44:03.820 There are not limits to the mercy of God, but if you deliberately refuse to accept his mercy by repenting, then you're rejecting the forgiveness of your sins and you're rejecting salvation, which is offered by the Holy Spirit.

00:44:18.460 The Holy Spirit, if you want to try to visualize it, and this is not an easy thing to do, and certainly you could never possibly do it perfectly well.

00:44:27.240 There's a story of St. Augustine trying to describe the Trinity, and he's walking along the beach, and a little kid is trying to shovel in all of the water from the ocean into one little hole.

00:44:38.140 St. Augustine says, you can't possibly do that, and then the legend goes the boy is transfigured into an angel, and he says, yeah, dummy, and you can't explain the Trinity.

00:44:45.740 He says, okay, that's true.

00:44:47.220 But the way you can sort of try to visualize the Holy Spirit is that the Holy Spirit is the bond of love between the Father and the Son.

00:44:53.960 So you can even see this in Genesis, in the first moments of Genesis.

00:44:57.640 The act of creation is an act of speech, and God the Father speaks the world into existence, and Christ is the Word.

00:45:04.420 He's the Logos.

00:45:05.440 And you can almost visualize it as that Word is being spoken by God.

00:45:12.020 That bond of love, that spirit, that breath, the Hebrew word is ruach, is breath or spirit, is that bond of love that proceeds from the Father and the Son, which is the bond of love between them.

00:45:21.980 So if you reject that, if you reject that advocate, that paraclete, then you are, by definition, rejecting the forgiveness of your sins, and that it can't be forgiven because you're refusing forgiveness.

00:45:35.840 I hope that clears it up a little bit.

00:45:37.440 Okay, we've run too long.

00:45:38.900 Enough of that.

00:45:39.520 I just figured that's a good question to end on on a show where half of the people talking are wearing collars and are rather sophisticated and intelligent priests.

00:45:49.420 Okay, that is the show.

00:45:50.520 So I will see you on Monday.

00:45:52.660 Have a good weekend.

00:45:53.480 Try to survive.

00:45:54.060 Listen to Another Kingdom because we're getting ready for season two of Another Kingdom, and it's going to be a lot of fun.

00:45:58.800 So check it out.

00:45:59.580 In the meantime, I'm Michael Knowles.

00:46:01.000 This is The Michael Knowles Show.

00:46:02.000 I'll see you on Monday.

00:46:02.700 The Michael Knowles Show is produced by Senia Villareal, executive producer Jeremy Boring, senior producer Jonathan Hay, our supervising producer Mathis Glover, and our technical producer is Austin Stevens, edited by Jim Nickel.

00:46:21.920 Audio is mixed by Mike Coromina.

00:46:24.200 Hair and makeup is by Jesua Olvera.

00:46:26.780 The Michael Knowles Show is a Daily Wire Forward Publishing production.

00:46:29.960 Copyright Forward Publishing 2018.

00:46:33.160 Let's check it out.

00:46:36.340 Yes, it is.

00:46:37.260 Leslie Bowling is a Daily Wireüsí fan.

00:46:37.840 Father is a Daily Wire touchscreen.

00:46:41.320 You're at a Daily Wire vaccines.

00:46:42.040 Um Mireyaev Set a Daily Wire Technology." 0.88

00:46:43.280 And you can review it and turn your Image Center in under like a televise, about three durchaus.

00:46:45.980 Let's go to the Daily Wire of the Daily Wire center.

00:46:48.240 Thank you.

00:46:48.560 We have arts and 안녕하세요.

00:46:48.740 We put my standards.

00:46:49.760 He is a totality.

00:46:50.680 But we have arts and I've Got Must Do You.

00:46:52.300 We have arts and made it.

00:46:53.700 We're not done.

00:46:54.440 Thank you.

00:46:55.200 We're boo boo- those. 1.00

00:46:56.440 We're a 2021- ведь

00:46:59.440 We have arts and why May do that. 0.98

The Michael Knowles Show - July 19, 2018

Ep. 187 - Why Won’t Anyone Talk About The Persecuted Christians？

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