＂I Took Mushrooms And Saw God＂ Michael & The Psychonaut Pt. 2
Episode Stats
Words per Minute
205.5654
Summary
In this episode, we talk about the power of psychedelics and how they can change your life. We also talk about what it means to use psychedelics to connect with God and how it can help you grow in your relationship with Him.
Transcript
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Rinse takes your laundry and hand delivers it to your door, expertly cleaned and folded.
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So you could take the time once spent folding and sorting and waiting to finally pursue a whole new version of you.
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I feel like my friend just set me up and he was used as a vessel and had no idea.
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The second he walked out the door, there was like this transfer.
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Started to feel like my spirit was wanting to go somewhere.
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I said, it's all right. You're going to be okay.
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And the second I said, you can't die, I heard a voice speak in my heart.
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He says, I can't take your life whenever I want.
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I said, maybe because you were on heroin and all this other stuff, what if now that you're clean,
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you haven't done hard drugs in a few years, maybe now you can take mushrooms.
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I'm talking about mushrooms because they're natural.
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And now you can probably connect with Jesus in a better way.
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You know, this relationship isn't as supernatural as it was in the beginning.
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Yeah, you're losing your tolerance is growing, let's say.
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And so I said, maybe mushrooms will do the trick.
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And not only for that, but also maybe I can get some answers for other people.
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Because I'm encountering this question all the time about people doing psychedelics and seeing it be a thing.
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I said, you know, God, my heart is to like, I put my heart before God of like, look, this is where I'm at.
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And I said, worst case scenario, I find out it's not good.
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Well, the thing about it is that, you know, and I say this as humble as possible.
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Like, when I say I was in it, I mean, like, I really was sold out.
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I wasn't like a Christian that was dabbling in sin and the world and going to church.
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I mean, I literally was, my life was dedicated to this.
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And so, like, and so it wasn't like, oh, I was already slipping away or something.
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And so, one night I'd go to my friend's house and we're going to make music.
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And while, you know, he's loading up the beat and everything.
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And this was a friend of mine that it was like the one of like two friends that I had that,
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the old friends that I didn't completely cut off.
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But it wasn't, you know, it was more just like I would make music with them.
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So, it's like I'd keep my distance but show up.
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And so, anyways, he dumps out his backpack of chocolate mushrooms all over, right over
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And he basically was like, here, you know what I mean?
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And now the thoughts of what was I was thinking the last few months pop up.
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I don't like the fear that, like, there's this fear of I shouldn't do this.
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I'm not going to sit here and think about it anymore.
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People get so sick of the anxiety and the hemming and hawing and the moral conscience
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telling you no, no, no, that you think, well, here's one way I can shut up that moral
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And then I won't have that anxiety of anticipation anymore.
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If you're not going to do it tonight, it's just going to bother you.
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And I ate, it was, you know, an eighth of mushrooms.
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And just for context, like, that was the normal dose that I would take.
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It's definitely on the higher end as far as, like, when you're looking at microdosing and
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And so to me, it was like, this is kind of mild, right?
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The first 20 minutes, I'm just getting in my vibe and, you know, and just listening to
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And then at one point, my friend says, hey, these guys want to go to the bar.
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I just, when I was eight, I don't want to go to the bar.
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I said, all right, I guess I'm stuck here now, you know, kind of thing.
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And this stuff, it takes like probably 30 minutes to kick in.
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So in the meantime, you start kind of feeling your stomach will start to turn.
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There's like this pre-almost anxiety kind of thing.
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Like you feel it kind of starting to creep up on you.
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The second he walked out the door, it was like that feeling of sleep paralysis, the feeling of like demons and evil, walks in the room.
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And it was, the first thing I noticed was if I feel like I just got set up unknowingly.
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I feel like my friend just set me up and he was used as a vessel and had no idea, completely not in his mind, knowing what he was doing.
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Mind you, I have had demonic encounters as a Christian at this point, just based off doing God's work and having demons come and attack me and stuff.
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I had cast out demons and all that kind of stuff.
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And so, but I'm like, all right, I know how mushrooms work.
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This, you know, if I feed into this, it's going to get worse.
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And I go into the bathroom and I'm talking, I'm cheering.
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And I said, I said, Josh, I said, you took mushrooms.
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I heard a voice speak in my heart the same way.
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And I always have heard God speak to me, cross-check everything and says, who says I can't take
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Who says like, and it wasn't in a way of like anger.
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Like who says I just can't stop your heart whenever I want?
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So it was like, oh, I could die, you know, like this could be it.
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And, and, um, so then I started being like, oh, wow, this isn't good.
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I started feeling like, all right, I need to start repenting.
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And it was like, as soon as I started to pray and started to ask God to help me, it just,
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I felt like I just was getting just like a dark cloud was just coming around me.
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And I'm like, but I'm, I'm still in this like state of like, it's going to be okay.
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And I'm like, you know what, Jesus, forgive me.
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Uh, you know how we think like, oh, I messed up.
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So it's like, forgiveness doesn't equate to consequence.
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So it's like the consequences were still there.
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And then I realized, oh no, I opened this door.
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I'm, I'm, I'm, you know, a young child and God, I knew better.
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And so now it's all hitting me like, oh, what'd you do?
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This is, and you're going to be stuck in this place because now I know I already have my
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spiritual eyes open, sober minded in the natural.
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So now that I'm spiritually awake and not dead in sin.
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Now, when I actually open that veil, it's not going to be nothing.
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And so I started praying and I'm just feeling like death encompassed me.
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And that's what it talks about in Psalm 18, death encompassed me, you know?
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And I'm, I called my wife and I said, she was on out with friends at dinner.
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And it's starting to get worse as before, like leading up to when she got there, it started
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Like started to feel like my spirit was wanting to go somewhere.
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It's like, it felt like the light was flickering within, like, it was like someone's pooling
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And I, and so it was like, she, by the time she gets there, I'm in the, I'm not able to
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Like she thinks this is just normal Josh coming in the car.
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Like, Hey, why could anyone, and I said, I can't talk.
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I didn't even have time to explain to her what was going on.
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It was like, I was, and she's even like, she's like, what, what's wrong?
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Like, cause I'm like, I'm gasping for breath and I'm feeling my body, like, go get, go
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And the next thing you know, it's like, boom, snapped into like a dream room.
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It's like, like in and out, like in and out of consciousness.
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So we're going through this whole car ride and every now and then I would try to like
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You know, I'm like over like 30 minutes, I gave her the story.
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And by the time I get home, it was just full, like, it was just fully on.
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Like I just, I'm feeling my soul just get pulled out of my body.
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And next thing I know, I start, there starts to be like sight coming to it.
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And so I'm sitting there and all of a sudden I realize I'm in this giant hand.
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So I'm in this hand and then I see demons right in front of me.
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And it's all the same demons I've seen in that one overdose.
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It's like, like, I don't know if they were the exact same ones, but they look the same.
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And except this time there was like taller ones.
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Like it was like, they were the ones in charge.
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So I'm in this hand and now I'm in another, another reality.
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What is, the first thing that hits you is you're helpless.
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That's the, I think the first thing that really got me, even before this happened, like up to this point,
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What are you, you know, it's not like when you're a kid, you call your mom to help you.
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And, you know, like there's nothing you can do.
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Like this is, there's nothing you can do right now.
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So I'm in this, you know, I'm in this hand and I'm seeing these demons.
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And so the one stands up and it's, and, and then I'm looking at my attention.
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Once that one stands up, I, like my attention diverts.
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Like I, it was like this thing, if it was just tilted up and just lights, just with no walls,
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but you could see it, just a big light beam tower kind of thing with different colors.
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And I knew that was like the kingdom of heaven.
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And then I knew that I was in outer darkness of some sort.
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And so now this demon stepping forward and he's presenting a case to this, this tower.
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And he keeps coming into our kingdom, taking people out.
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You, you really are coming into, you know, and I, and I would, I'd go into, to, you know,
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wherever, inner cities, wherever, any neighborhood and just preach Jesus, talk about Jesus, get
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But you could bring a thousand people into the church and you could wind up in the bad place.
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He keeps taking souls out, you know, helping souls out of here, but then he comes and eats
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Even Peter Kreeft, the theologian, philosopher, he says that abortion is the demonic inversion
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The Eucharist, the priest holds up the consecrated host and says, recites the word of our Lord,
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says, this is my body, which will be given up for you.
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And what abortion does is, is uses the same words to a diabolically opposite end, which
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And even this, this idea of the Eucharist is manna from heaven.
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It's a, that's, that's what you're seeing, the figure of the Eucharist in the manna that
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comes down and saves the Israelites, gives them bread to eat.
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And we, we now have this in the Holy Communion.
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And as you said earlier, this, this idea that, no man, you know, what if the mushrooms are
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the act, that's kind of like the manna, but the demons are telling you in this trip, they're
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saying, that's our food from our table that he's eating.
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And that, and that was, I mean, like that was the, the, the crux of the whole thing for
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me, because at that point, the thing about the spirit realm is you don't need a lot of
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words to get a lot of revelation and nothing is spoken.
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Nothing is hidden and all things when the, uh, nothing is hidden from the light, right?
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Like it, so in the spirit, everything is just, it's, it's out on the open.
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You don't have your, your everything that you try to ignore is there, whether you like
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And so it was that moment of being naked before everything.
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Of me being a hypocrite in that moment, be me backsliding me, whatever I was, everything
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And, and now it was a matter of I'm in this hand that I can't just get out of this.
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I mean, that's, it was literally, they were presenting a case against me to God.
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And, and, and, and so I'm sitting there now, I'm freaking out in the sense that I already
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It felt like everything was shriveling up, you know?
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Um, it's like, you could feel your organs drying up.
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Fear becomes a jacket, you like a living thing that comes around you.
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Um, just despair, just, I mean, every, every negative, like emotion feeling you could think
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And it's, I felt like a slug if you pour salt on it.
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I felt my life literally just getting pulled out of me, shriveling up in, while I'm in
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this hand, I feel my breath just getting pulled out of me.
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And mind you, in, in, in real time, I, you're, you feel like you're connected to your physical
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So I'm still like five, 10% aware of what's happening in my body.
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And every, you know, 10, 15, my wife's freaking out, you know, and during this time she's
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And then I'd, I'd get pulled back into, and I'd be in this reality.
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And so, because you're, you're not in physical danger of death any more than any of us is
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If you were on heroin or something, you would have been in physical danger of death.
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But as you said, consciously, you said, these are mushrooms, mushrooms at this dose,
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God tells you, well, I can stop your heart whenever I want.
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So, you know, if your wife had said, hey, you're high on heroin or something, and you
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said, well, don't call the doctors, she probably would have just called the doctors anyway.
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But, but what you're saying is, no, my danger right now, though I feel it physically, the
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danger that I'm in right now is a spiritual danger.
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And I mean, to be honest with you, to this day, I don't know how, like, if it was just
00:16:34.120
And the reason I say that is because people get this idea that, like, like, like I said,
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like, oh, you can't die from this, you can die from that.
00:16:41.020
There's, you know, this, this spiritual realm is what is really deciding the physical realm.
00:16:48.740
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The technical language for this is that the matter is just like the stuff that's in the spiritual realm is the form.
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It's like our soul is the substantial form of our body.
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And so people try to really neatly separate these two things, but that's not really how it works.
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Those things are together, inseparably, for now, in this world.
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And so to try to say, well, no, that's just happening to my spirit.
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So that's like one of the greatest mysteries I'm not going to get into right now.
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But that's, I mean, that's the mystery of it all.
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That's the truth behind it is that that's like the spirit world is happening right now while we're sitting here talking.
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So that's what the first thing it showed me was my body is literally laying there.
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So when you see people physically going through something, you don't know what is happening spiritually a lot of times, right?
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So I'm feeling this whole thing going on in my body.
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But I'm thinking at this point, like God heard me by now.
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So I'm kind of like I started to give up because it was exhausting me.
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It was physically like it was giving me, like it was taking all my strength to speak, to say, God have mercy.
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I just felt the longer I was in his hand, the more I was, life was getting pulled out of me.
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And I started to, but I'm still going through turmoil.
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But I started to think about, my wife was pregnant at the time.
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I said, God, I said, you know what, it's not about me.
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That was the next thing that happened was, oh, these people need me.
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And so at that moment I started to feel almost a slight pressure release.
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And then I started to notice that at the top of the tower, like it was, like I couldn't look at it.
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I knew, you know, it's the glory of God was up there.
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And I could see that the source of that tower was at the top of it.
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Like I could, I could see like a little like breath would hit me.
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And then in that moment I said, every breath that I get is, he's literally giving it to me.
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He's aware that he's giving it to me, consciously giving it to me.
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And it was like, I was, it was like I would get the breath and it would, and I would make it last.
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Because it was like, there was space in between.
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And it wasn't like I could just like how we could breathe now, just as freely as we want.
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And of course, as we're speaking here, there's really no such thing as a metaphor or literal.
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I mean, what we're saying is these, these two things intersect.
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And this is the image of, that's, that is what the Holy Spirit is, right?
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I mean, the bond of love between the Father and the Son.
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And then it says his breath made man breathe, like, and gave the being, the hosts.
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Even if you've received the Holy Spirit, Christ says, right?
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Like, I was just kind of just, I didn't know what to think.
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It was just, I was just in pain and confusion, but also like just, just discomfort.
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So now I start to feel like maybe there's hope now.
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And so now the breath starts coming more fluidly.
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And then all of a sudden, it was like this, this cloud of witnesses kind of came around.
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I just started to feel energy, love come from them.
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And as they began to pray for me, I started to feel more alive.
00:22:41.060
And then all of a sudden, it was like a shadow of a cross came out, out the top of the tower.
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And it was like the, the source of the top, his attention turned to it.
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And it was this, because like I said, everything's telepathically and like, it's, it's all connected.
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Like I, you, you know, what's, what everything is kind of feeling and thinking in a sense.
00:23:00.660
So it's like, I could feel God's attention turn to the cross.
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And then all of a sudden, I look over and out of the tower, Jesus starts walking out.
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I see this man come walking towards me, out into the center of this abyss.
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And as soon as he touched me, I went back to my body and began going through deliverance.
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Because you can't, Jesus, you can't, Jesus can't touch you.
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And so everything that I had just allowed into my life, I literally was puking.
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I was puking my guts out, filling up garbage bags, little, like shopping bags.
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I mean, this is, people, maybe not as intensely as what you're describing, but people always
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talk about this really spiritual experience of ayahuasca.
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And even the beauty of that image, though, where Christ walks out and touches you, and
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you're back in the body, which is, it's an incarnational faith.
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The pivot of history is the incarnation, the second person of the Trinity, the Son of God,
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into flesh, and he was incarnate of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, and becomes
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And the fact that God, the Son, becomes man is this height, this perfection of the unity
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You think, no, the body, the body actually does matter.
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And you see this in the sacraments that he gives us.
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So the second he touches you, oh yeah, there's the body again.
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Because the funny thing about this story is there's so, so much that I'm still piecing.
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Probably the rest of my life, I'll be piecing together parts of it.
00:25:04.780
Because I collapse, I feel kind of that release of like, it's going to be okay.
00:25:09.800
But now, when I collapse on the floor, I go back.
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And when I'm in the tower, now I'm in the light.
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It's like everything else fades away like a cinematic, you know, in your iPhone.
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And his eyes were like, like, almost like the earth.
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It wasn't just like, oh, they're blue or brown.
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It was just like, they magnetically like pull you into him.
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And then it also simultaneously pulls itself into you.
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And so he's smiling at me as if he's happy to see me.
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But he's looking at me as if, like, he was happy to see me.
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And so in that moment, it's like, what do you do with that?
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And in the moment, I'm receiving that, but I'm still stuck in what happened in the past.
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You know, but I'm also now, scripture is flooding my mind.
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I'm thinking about Psalm 73, for whom do I have in heaven but besides you?
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Like, literally, Jesus is all we have in heaven.
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And so that's hitting me like, oh, you're the one that came for me.
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There was no one else that could have came for me.
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And so he, like, starts, like, walking with me.
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But I started to notice, because I'm looking around, and it wasn't like I was seeing everything
00:27:08.380
So everything was kind of veiled, but I could see it.
00:27:10.960
So I could make out, oh, this is this kind of color.
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But I'm sensing that things, like, that these, like, angels or these saints, whatever they
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Not mad at me, but it was kind of just like, you knew better, Josh, like, kind of thing.
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Like, you know, and not, it wasn't a shaming way.
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I guess it shouldn't be wild that you describe it that way.
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Because this is the scene in Dante's divine comedy, in Paradise, something I'm always
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struck by when I, I love the poem, and when Dante gets up to heaven, he has wonderful
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conversations with these people, one of his ancestors, saints, and the object of his love,
00:28:06.160
well, the ultimate object of his love is God, but he is sort of channeling it through
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this beloved Beatrice, and Beatrice sends Virgil down on this mission to, you know, go pull Dante
00:28:18.660
out of his midlife crisis and the wayward way and pull him down through the pits of hell,
00:28:28.560
The first thing she says to him when she sees him at the end of purgatory going into heaven
00:28:32.800
is she says, he's crying because Virgil goes away, and Virgil's a pagan, can't go to heaven.
00:28:37.700
And she says, stop crying, non piangere ancora, non piangere ancora, cut it out, we've got
00:28:44.780
And then she goes up, and she's fairly steely-faced in heaven, and she's looking at God, and he
00:28:51.680
can see in the reflection of her eyes, that's how he's looking at her eyes, and he's seeing
00:28:59.080
But she's not saying, oh, hey, buddy, good to see you, oh, attaboy.
00:29:03.720
She's like, no, reality is what reality is, and I'm not going to, I'll pray for you, but
00:29:12.140
And that's what I think, like, we get sometimes this idea that, like, angels in heaven and
00:29:16.420
Jesus, it's like this teddy bear, like, oh, you know, like, and it's like, they're serious.
00:29:23.000
This is like a serious, God's about his will being done.
00:29:25.300
So it's like, this isn't a game, you know, it's like, why are we referred to as armies and
00:29:29.340
sports players and, you know, like, and soldiers and stuff?
00:29:39.080
Like, shame just hit me all of a sudden, and I took off.
00:29:45.720
There was different, like, dimensions of glory.
00:29:50.280
I knew there was one or two above me, and I knew there was at least three or four under
00:29:55.280
So when I looked down, I said, I'm going to the lowest part of heaven I can find.
00:30:05.100
I mean, like, you think it, and you just travel.
00:30:07.720
So next thing I know, I'm at the ground, and I'm on my knees, and I'm just worshiping.
00:30:19.740
And so that was, like, the next thing that 100% hit me of, you're giving me this breath.
00:30:26.160
The only thing that I should do with it is give it back to you in a way that pleases you.
00:30:31.340
So it's like, I don't really want to, like, just let me worship.
00:30:34.360
That's the only heart response to what's going on right now, and to realizing where I'm at.
00:30:44.680
You know, it was, like, this moment of let it go, like, just you're here.
00:30:51.520
So I started to ascend back with him, and then it was, like, I switched.
00:30:57.680
I was in this, almost this bubble of, like, just, like, colors was, like, flying by me,
00:31:05.000
and it was, like, downloads were just flooding through me.
00:31:09.960
You see people, like, hooked up to those machines.
00:31:13.200
I felt like I was hooked up to this machine, and every question I had was just flooding through me
00:31:22.260
It was, like, God's love and his wrath, his grace, and everything was all mixed in one, almost.
00:31:29.060
It was, like, this, you're being too good to me.
00:31:33.740
It was, like, all, and everything I want to know is coming to me.
00:31:36.880
Everything I could ever think about in my life and wanting to understand is coming to me.
00:31:45.420
In a matter of minutes, it's, like, download, download, download, download.
00:31:57.640
And then next thing I know, I just started, it started, like, lightening up,
00:32:07.480
But I didn't really want it to be, you know, like, over now, because now I'm, like, it was, like, all right.
00:32:13.080
Well, you see the same experience that you're describing when God's face passes by in Genesis.
00:32:21.420
You say, don't look directly, you can't, you will die if you look directly at the face of God.
00:32:27.800
You can look at the back of his head, but the sense that you'll be overwhelmed, because you're finite.
00:32:39.780
It's like, if he were totally comprehensible by you, he wouldn't be God, and you wouldn't be you.
00:32:44.840
No, I mean, it reminded me of, like, when Paul said, there's things I've seen I can't tell you.
00:32:54.460
It was too much for my natural body to contain.
00:32:58.880
And, you know, you reminded me of something when you were talking about Dante Zofrano.
00:33:02.160
And I haven't talked about this really yet, but what was, because I was baptized Russian Orthodox,
00:33:08.140
which is, I think, very similar to Catholic faith.
00:33:11.260
And somebody asked me, they're like, have you heard of the toll houses?
00:33:16.540
And when I started looking at the toll houses, I was like, I really feel like that's what I experienced.
00:33:22.560
You know, and I, so I didn't get this until after, but it's, it's similar to, like, purgatory.
00:33:28.920
And, and, and that's what, so I've been looking at the toll houses.
00:33:31.940
So you won't get out until you pay the very last farthing, that sort of thing?
00:33:37.320
I just, when I read about what toll houses are, I'm like, that's definitely what it seemed like I was going through.
00:33:48.780
It was, it was a form of, of hell, not the fullness of it.
00:33:52.120
Even the description that you have of the, of the trial, you know, that you're on, we're all in trials.
00:33:58.880
Jesus is led by the spirit into the desert to be tested by, into a trial.
00:34:02.340
You know, lead me not into a trial, lead me not into temptation, deliver me from evil.
00:34:18.340
Like, basically, like, she doesn't really know what to think.
00:34:21.180
She's, and, you know, my wife didn't grow up in that world.
00:34:25.420
She doesn't, you know, she's just taking my word for it to just, like, calm down, relax, it's going to be okay, pray, whatever.
00:34:29.980
Like, so she's just kind of like, oh, I'm glad it's over.
00:34:33.820
I mean, what do you, what do you really say after that?
00:34:35.480
You know, it's not like there was a, a significant, like, reaction.
00:34:42.840
You know, and to this day, like, when this thing comes up, she's like, yeah, that was scary.
00:34:48.200
And then I laid in bed and I was scared to move.
00:34:51.620
You know, for the rest of the night, I stayed awake saying hallelujah, hallelujah.
00:34:55.460
You know, and for the next three days, I didn't want to talk.
00:35:01.680
I mean, the fear of God got so deeply drilled into me and not, I'm scared of God.
00:35:20.280
And that, and that's so like, that ties into this whole, you're your own God, you're your own divine.
00:35:25.040
And it's like, because that's, that's what it, all, all my friends who have gotten sucked into this stuff, whether we're talking about chemical or just spiritual, or usually it's some kind of combination of the two.
00:35:38.400
And it always seems to come down to, you're your own God and you can do whatever you want.
00:35:45.580
You've got the power and you, you, you, you, you.
00:35:48.180
Like, if it's about you, you, you, you, you, you're probably not on the right path, man.
00:35:54.460
I think that, and that's, that's the, I think the, the big like difference to me is that God wants to create with us.
00:36:05.620
And Jesus is the, the, the center of everything.
00:36:09.040
The whole, this, these whole other movements, they take everything that God intended for us to have and, and not everything, but some things, and they just kick Jesus out of it.
00:36:18.540
And so, you know, and it reminds me of that parable where the, the, the guys said, I'm going to send my helper to the vineyard to get my fruit.
00:36:25.320
They beat him up, beat him up, I'll send my son.
00:36:27.560
They say, oh, we'll kill him so we can inherit what belongs to him.
00:36:32.640
He's, he's perverted everything that God has, took it for himself, and then made people afraid of, of certain things that God had created for people.
00:36:44.460
So it's like, you know, everything's gotten perverted.
00:36:46.740
I love the image of the cross as the axle on which the world turns, on which the universe turns.
00:36:51.960
You know, that's just, that's where it all turns around.
00:36:54.280
And you can deny that, but if you deny that, you're going to find yourself increasingly incoherent.
00:37:01.860
And you can, you can try to make a God of yourself.
00:37:04.980
That's the primal temptation in the garden of Eden is you shall be as gods.
00:37:10.780
You're going to end up destroyed physically and spiritually.