The Michael Knowles Show - October 25, 2025


＂I Took Mushrooms And Saw God＂ Michael & The Psychonaut Pt. 2


Episode Stats


Length

37 minutes

Words per minute

205.5654

Word count

7,700

Sentence count

709

Harmful content

Misogyny

2

sentences flagged

Hate speech

3

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode, we talk about the power of psychedelics and how they can change your life. We also talk about what it means to use psychedelics to connect with God and how it can help you grow in your relationship with Him.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 Rinse takes your laundry and hand delivers it to your door, expertly cleaned and folded.
00:00:04.720 So you could take the time once spent folding and sorting and waiting to finally pursue a whole new version of you.
00:00:10.780 Like tea time you.
00:00:12.760 Mmm.
00:00:13.580 Or this tea time you.
00:00:16.120 Or even this tea time you.
00:00:18.680 So did you hear about Dave?
00:00:19.900 Or even tea time, tea time, tea time you.
00:00:22.800 Mmm.
00:00:23.760 So update on Dave.
00:00:25.780 It's up to you. We'll take the laundry. 0.56
00:00:28.060 Rinse. It's time to be great.
00:00:30.000 I feel like my friend just set me up and he was used as a vessel and had no idea.
00:00:34.020 He walks out the door.
00:00:35.300 The second he walked out the door, there was like this transfer.
00:00:38.400 I feel it tangibly come in the room.
00:00:40.400 I said, oh, I know that presence.
00:00:42.000 But I just got set up here.
00:00:43.220 Which you did.
00:00:43.940 A hundred percent.
00:00:44.860 Started to feel like my spirit was wanting to go somewhere.
00:00:48.400 I said, you took mushrooms.
00:00:49.460 I said, it's all right. You're going to be okay.
00:00:51.060 I said, you can't die.
00:00:52.080 And the second I said, you can't die, I heard a voice speak in my heart.
00:00:55.600 He says, I can't take your life whenever I want.
00:00:57.320 And I said, you know what, Josh?
00:00:58.440 I said, maybe because you were on heroin and all this other stuff, what if now that you're clean,
00:01:03.680 you haven't done hard drugs in a few years, maybe now you can take mushrooms.
00:01:08.880 It's natural.
00:01:09.400 I'm not talking about acid.
00:01:10.360 I'm talking about mushrooms because they're natural.
00:01:11.840 And now you can probably connect with Jesus in a better way.
00:01:15.340 You know, this relationship isn't as supernatural as it was in the beginning.
00:01:18.720 Yeah, you're losing your tolerance is growing, let's say.
00:01:21.640 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:01:22.200 You're not feeling that high.
00:01:24.220 Yep.
00:01:24.660 And so I said, maybe mushrooms will do the trick.
00:01:28.100 And not only for that, but also maybe I can get some answers for other people.
00:01:34.100 Because I'm encountering this question all the time about people doing psychedelics and seeing it be a thing.
00:01:38.900 I said, you know, God, my heart is to like, I put my heart before God of like, look, this is where I'm at.
00:01:45.360 I said, I kind of feel like doing it.
00:01:47.060 And I said, worst case scenario, I find out it's not good.
00:01:50.700 And, you know, I don't do it anymore.
00:01:53.540 Well, the thing about it is that, you know, and I say this as humble as possible.
00:02:00.120 Like, when I say I was in it, I mean, like, I really was sold out.
00:02:03.700 I was living right.
00:02:04.880 I wasn't like a Christian that was dabbling in sin and the world and going to church.
00:02:10.080 I mean, I literally was, my life was dedicated to this.
00:02:12.580 Like, that's all I thought about.
00:02:13.940 That's all I did.
00:02:14.700 And, you know, like, I didn't have a life.
00:02:16.300 That was my life.
00:02:17.360 And so, like, and so it wasn't like, oh, I was already slipping away or something.
00:02:22.200 And so, basically, months pass.
00:02:27.260 And so, one night I'd go to my friend's house and we're going to make music.
00:02:31.440 And while, you know, he's loading up the beat and everything.
00:02:34.520 And this was a friend of mine that it was like the one of like two friends that I had that,
00:02:38.640 the old friends that I didn't completely cut off.
00:02:40.940 But it wasn't, you know, it was more just like I would make music with them.
00:02:43.760 I still loved them.
00:02:44.740 So, it's like I'd keep my distance but show up.
00:02:47.420 And so, anyways, he dumps out his backpack of chocolate mushrooms all over, right over
00:02:52.760 the bed, right in front of me.
00:02:54.260 And he basically was like, here, you know what I mean?
00:02:57.060 Here, try one.
00:02:58.000 You know what I mean?
00:02:58.540 And now the thoughts of what was I was thinking the last few months pop up.
00:03:03.600 And so, I said, you know what, Josh?
00:03:05.600 I said, I'm tired of the, internally.
00:03:07.060 I'm like, you know what?
00:03:07.720 I'm tired of there being feared with this.
00:03:09.620 I just want to face this.
00:03:10.740 I don't like the fear that, like, there's this fear of I shouldn't do this.
00:03:14.880 And I didn't like that, you know?
00:03:16.100 Like, I said, you know, I don't like fear.
00:03:17.980 I'm going to confront this.
00:03:18.780 I'm going to take it.
00:03:19.300 I said, it's now or never.
00:03:20.160 I'm not going to sit here and think about it anymore.
00:03:21.880 I was tired of processing it in my mind.
00:03:24.260 I just wanted to try it.
00:03:25.020 And I said, you know.
00:03:26.560 People get so sick of the anxiety and the hemming and hawing and the moral conscience
00:03:32.080 telling you no, no, no, that you think, well, here's one way I can shut up that moral
00:03:35.960 conscience.
00:03:36.280 I'm just going to do it.
00:03:37.680 And then I won't have that anxiety of anticipation anymore.
00:03:41.040 Yeah.
00:03:41.560 Yeah.
00:03:41.880 I think that's probably what it was.
00:03:43.240 It was like, you know what?
00:03:44.000 If you're not going to do it tonight, it's just going to bother you.
00:03:46.040 So I did it.
00:03:48.060 And I ate, it was, you know, an eighth of mushrooms.
00:03:51.640 And just for context, like, that was the normal dose that I would take.
00:03:55.120 That was, like, a normal, like, go-to dose.
00:03:57.960 It's definitely on the higher end as far as, like, when you're looking at microdosing and
00:04:01.160 stuff, it's a lot lower than that.
00:04:03.000 But I had taken much larger doses, too.
00:04:05.140 I had taken, you know, double that.
00:04:06.620 Of everything.
00:04:07.460 Yeah.
00:04:07.740 Yeah.
00:04:07.980 And so to me, it was like, this is kind of mild, right?
00:04:11.160 That's how I'm thinking.
00:04:11.940 And so I take it, and it starts off good.
00:04:15.940 The first 20 minutes, I'm just getting in my vibe and, you know, and just listening to
00:04:21.400 the music.
00:04:21.720 And it's all good vibes and good thoughts.
00:04:23.840 And I'm happy.
00:04:24.700 And it's going to be good.
00:04:26.120 And then at one point, my friend says, hey, these guys want to go to the bar.
00:04:30.460 Do you want to come?
00:04:30.980 I said, no.
00:04:31.860 I said, what do you?
00:04:32.420 I just, when I was eight, I don't want to go to the bar.
00:04:34.640 And so he said, well, I'm going to go.
00:04:35.700 You can sit here if you want.
00:04:36.520 That's fine.
00:04:36.720 Is that cool?
00:04:37.800 I said, all right, I guess I'm stuck here now, you know, kind of thing.
00:04:41.820 And so he leaves.
00:04:45.140 And this stuff, it takes like probably 30 minutes to kick in.
00:04:48.520 So in the meantime, you start kind of feeling your stomach will start to turn.
00:04:51.800 There's like this pre-almost anxiety kind of thing.
00:04:55.040 Like you feel it kind of starting to creep up on you.
00:04:58.220 And so I already had to feel that.
00:04:59.400 So I said, oh, we're about to go into this.
00:05:01.140 And so my friend, he walks out the door.
00:05:05.200 The second he walked out the door, it was like that feeling of sleep paralysis, the feeling of like demons and evil, walks in the room.
00:05:12.700 It was like this transfer.
00:05:13.720 Like he left.
00:05:14.420 And it was, the first thing I noticed was if I feel like I just got set up unknowingly.
00:05:18.920 I feel like my friend just set me up and he was used as a vessel and had no idea, completely not in his mind, knowing what he was doing.
00:05:25.000 But I just got set up here.
00:05:26.720 Which you did.
00:05:28.020 100%.
00:05:28.380 And that was so clear.
00:05:29.580 You know what I mean?
00:05:30.320 Like I was like, wow, I just got set up.
00:05:32.700 And so he walks out and evil just walks in.
00:05:36.940 Mind you, I have had demonic encounters as a Christian at this point, just based off doing God's work and having demons come and attack me and stuff.
00:05:45.300 I had cast out demons and all that kind of stuff.
00:05:47.180 So I know this presence.
00:05:48.860 I'm still like so 100% sober minded.
00:05:51.560 Like I'm 100% in my rational mind.
00:05:54.600 I feel it tangibly come in the room.
00:05:56.680 I said, oh, I know that presence.
00:05:57.980 And so I said, oh, no, this isn't good.
00:06:00.920 And so, but I'm like, all right, I know how mushrooms work.
00:06:04.480 I'm going to stay positive.
00:06:07.040 Keep my mind right.
00:06:08.180 This, you know, if I feed into this, it's going to get worse.
00:06:10.520 I started ignoring it.
00:06:11.340 I said, I'm good.
00:06:11.840 And I go into the bathroom and I'm talking, I'm cheering.
00:06:15.780 I'm giving myself a pep talk in the mirror.
00:06:17.420 And I said, I said, Josh, I said, you took mushrooms.
00:06:20.060 I said, it's all right.
00:06:20.920 You're going to be okay.
00:06:21.640 I said, you can't die.
00:06:22.980 And the second I said, you can't die.
00:06:24.940 I heard a voice speak in my heart the same way.
00:06:27.200 And I always have heard God speak to me, cross-check everything and says, who says I can't take
00:06:32.660 your life whenever I want?
00:06:33.700 Who says like, and it wasn't in a way of like anger.
00:06:38.320 It was a checking of my pride.
00:06:40.260 Like who says I just can't stop your heart whenever I want?
00:06:42.820 Like, what do you mean you can't die?
00:06:44.500 I could just do it now.
00:06:45.420 Like for no reason you could just drop.
00:06:47.440 Right.
00:06:47.620 So it was like, oh, I could die, you know, like this could be it.
00:06:51.940 And, and, um, so then I started being like, oh, wow, this isn't good.
00:06:55.880 I started feeling like, all right, I need to start repenting.
00:06:58.660 So I started praying.
00:07:00.120 And it was like, as soon as I started to pray and started to ask God to help me, it just,
00:07:05.260 I felt like I just was getting just like a dark cloud was just coming around me.
00:07:09.360 I could tangibly feel it.
00:07:10.520 I could feel like closing in on me.
00:07:11.960 And I'm like, but I'm, I'm still in this like state of like, it's going to be okay.
00:07:17.540 You're good.
00:07:18.120 And I'm like, you know what, Jesus, forgive me.
00:07:20.500 Uh, you know how we think like, oh, I messed up.
00:07:22.980 Oh Lord, forgive me.
00:07:23.640 And we're good.
00:07:24.200 Yeah.
00:07:24.440 Yeah.
00:07:24.800 So it's like, forgiveness doesn't equate to consequence.
00:07:26.980 So it's like the consequences were still there.
00:07:29.700 And then I realized, oh no, I opened this door.
00:07:32.160 I know better.
00:07:33.180 I'm not a baby.
00:07:35.260 I'm, I'm, I'm, you know, a young child and God, I knew better.
00:07:38.600 And so now it's all hitting me like, oh, what'd you do?
00:07:42.060 Like this is, and you just opened this door.
00:07:44.320 This is, and you're going to be stuck in this place because now I know I already have my
00:07:47.700 spiritual eyes open, sober minded in the natural.
00:07:51.300 So now that I'm spiritually awake and not dead in sin.
00:07:55.960 Now, when I actually open that veil, it's not going to be nothing.
00:08:00.260 It's going to be clear.
00:08:01.160 I'm going to know what it is now.
00:08:03.340 And so I started praying and I'm just feeling like death encompassed me.
00:08:07.340 And that's what it talks about in Psalm 18, death encompassed me, you know?
00:08:10.220 Um, and that's what it feels like.
00:08:12.280 And I'm, I called my wife and I said, she was on out with friends at dinner.
00:08:16.860 I said, you need to come get me.
00:08:18.100 She had no idea what I was doing.
00:08:19.320 I didn't even, I wasn't planning this.
00:08:20.800 Right.
00:08:20.920 I can't imagine she would have approved.
00:08:22.320 Yeah.
00:08:22.660 No.
00:08:23.000 Yeah.
00:08:23.320 And she says, she doesn't know.
00:08:25.360 And it's starting to get worse as before, like leading up to when she got there, it started
00:08:30.400 to feel like something was pooling.
00:08:32.060 Like started to feel like my spirit was wanting to go somewhere.
00:08:36.180 I can't explain it.
00:08:37.220 It's like, it felt like the light was flickering within, like, it was like someone's pooling
00:08:42.660 me somewhere.
00:08:43.140 And I, and so it was like, she, by the time she gets there, I'm in the, I'm not able to
00:08:48.760 really function at this point.
00:08:50.040 I couldn't breathe well.
00:08:52.300 And so she's trying to talk.
00:08:53.640 Like she thinks this is just normal Josh coming in the car.
00:08:56.080 Like, Hey, why could anyone, and I said, I can't talk.
00:08:58.680 And I said, just pray.
00:08:59.620 I said, just pray for me.
00:09:00.440 I didn't even have time to explain to her what was going on.
00:09:02.800 By this point I was, I couldn't breathe.
00:09:05.340 It was like, I was, and she's even like, she's like, what, what's wrong?
00:09:08.180 Like, cause I'm like, I'm gasping for breath and I'm feeling my body, like, go get, go
00:09:14.120 in and out.
00:09:14.680 It's like, I'm here talking to you.
00:09:16.540 And the next thing you know, it's like, boom, snapped into like a dream room.
00:09:19.640 It's like, like in and out, like in and out of consciousness.
00:09:22.900 And then, but as it would be a black void.
00:09:24.820 So we're going through this whole car ride and every now and then I would try to like
00:09:27.920 tell her, like, just, I can't talk right now.
00:09:29.420 You know, I'm like over like 30 minutes, I gave her the story.
00:09:32.600 Like, Oh, I took mushrooms.
00:09:33.560 All right.
00:09:33.900 You know?
00:09:34.540 And so I get home.
00:09:36.180 And by the time I get home, it was just full, like, it was just fully on.
00:09:40.900 I run into my room.
00:09:42.400 I lay on the floor.
00:09:43.540 And at this point I'm just getting pulled.
00:09:45.120 Like I just, I'm feeling my soul just get pulled out of my body.
00:09:48.960 And so I'm in this dark, like a void.
00:09:52.800 And next thing I know, I start, there starts to be like sight coming to it.
00:09:58.560 Cause it's just a abyss of blackness.
00:10:00.560 And so I'm sitting there and all of a sudden I realize I'm in this giant hand.
00:10:04.540 So I'm in this hand and then I see demons right in front of me.
00:10:10.080 And it's all the same demons I've seen in that one overdose.
00:10:12.800 It's like, like, I don't know if they were the exact same ones, but they look the same.
00:10:15.820 It was the same breed. 1.00
00:10:16.760 Same breed. 0.99
00:10:17.500 Yeah.
00:10:18.140 And except this time there was like taller ones.
00:10:21.220 Like it was like, they were the ones in charge.
00:10:23.020 Like they were, they were higher ranking ones.
00:10:24.640 So I'm in this hand and now I'm in another, another reality.
00:10:29.860 And now fear's like, what is going on?
00:10:33.220 Where am I?
00:10:34.020 What is, the first thing that hits you is you're helpless.
00:10:38.480 That's the, I think the first thing that really got me, even before this happened, like up to this point,
00:10:43.640 it's knowing like, what are you going to call?
00:10:45.600 Like, what are you going to do?
00:10:46.740 What are you, you know, it's not like when you're a kid, you call your mom to help you.
00:10:49.820 And, you know, like there's nothing you can do.
00:10:52.100 The hospital can't help you.
00:10:53.280 This is, you know what I mean?
00:10:54.240 Like this is, there's nothing you can do right now.
00:10:57.000 So you're just helpless.
00:10:58.580 Yep.
00:10:59.200 So I'm in this, you know, I'm in this hand and I'm seeing these demons.
00:11:04.860 And so the one stands up and it's, and, and then I'm looking at my attention.
00:11:09.480 Once that one stands up, I, like my attention diverts.
00:11:13.500 And now it was like this, this light tower.
00:11:15.760 Like I, it was like this thing, if it was just tilted up and just lights, just with no walls,
00:11:22.060 but you could see it, just a big light beam tower kind of thing with different colors.
00:11:26.880 And I knew that was like the kingdom of heaven.
00:11:29.000 And then I knew that I was in outer darkness of some sort.
00:11:31.780 I was in this, this in between place.
00:11:35.940 And so now this demon stepping forward and he's presenting a case to this, this tower.
00:11:42.220 And he said, we're tired of this kid.
00:11:43.740 And he keeps coming into our kingdom, taking people out.
00:11:47.040 And then he came back and ate off our table.
00:11:49.440 And it hit me right then and there.
00:11:52.740 You're an evangelist.
00:11:53.780 You're winning souls for Jesus all the time.
00:11:56.060 You, you really are coming into, you know, and I, and I would, I'd go into, to, you know,
00:12:00.580 wherever, inner cities, wherever, any neighborhood and just preach Jesus, talk about Jesus, get
00:12:06.240 people saved.
00:12:06.800 You know what I mean?
00:12:07.280 But you could bring a thousand people into the church and you could wind up in the bad place.
00:12:10.860 Uh-huh.
00:12:11.520 100%.
00:12:11.880 What a phrase.
00:12:14.000 He keeps taking souls out, you know, helping souls out of here, but then he comes and eats
00:12:19.560 from our table.
00:12:21.660 Even Peter Kreeft, the theologian, philosopher, he says that abortion is the demonic inversion
00:12:31.420 of the Eucharist.
00:12:32.460 The Eucharist, the priest holds up the consecrated host and says, recites the word of our Lord,
00:12:37.080 says, this is my body, which will be given up for you.
00:12:40.420 And what abortion does is, is uses the same words to a diabolically opposite end, which
00:12:45.440 is, this is my body.
00:12:47.140 This is my body.
00:12:48.240 I'm going to, I won't save.
00:12:49.740 I'll kill for my body.
00:12:51.560 Wow.
00:12:52.140 And even this, this idea of the Eucharist is manna from heaven.
00:12:57.460 It's a, that's, that's what you're seeing, the figure of the Eucharist in the manna that
00:13:02.780 comes down and saves the Israelites, gives them bread to eat.
00:13:05.760 And we, we now have this in the Holy Communion.
00:13:09.140 And as you said earlier, this, this idea that, no man, you know, what if the mushrooms are
00:13:16.880 the act, that's kind of like the manna, but the demons are telling you in this trip, they're
00:13:22.420 saying, that's our food from our table that he's eating.
00:13:27.600 100%.
00:13:28.120 And that, and that was, I mean, like that was the, the, the crux of the whole thing for
00:13:34.360 me, because at that point, the thing about the spirit realm is you don't need a lot of
00:13:38.300 words to get a lot of revelation and nothing is spoken.
00:13:41.480 This is all telepathically.
00:13:43.120 It's, it's just known in the spirit.
00:13:44.760 Nothing is hidden and all things when the, uh, nothing is hidden from the light, right?
00:13:48.340 Like it, so in the spirit, everything is just, it's, it's out on the open.
00:13:51.340 You don't have money to hide behind.
00:13:52.640 You don't have a facade.
00:13:53.740 You don't have your, your everything that you try to ignore is there, whether you like
00:13:58.340 it or not.
00:13:58.760 And it's seen.
00:13:59.860 And so it was that moment of being naked before everything.
00:14:04.360 Of me being a hypocrite in that moment, be me backsliding me, whatever I was, everything
00:14:12.040 was there.
00:14:13.020 Oops.
00:14:14.160 You know, oops.
00:14:15.800 And, and now it was a matter of I'm in this hand that I can't just get out of this.
00:14:20.800 All right.
00:14:21.000 See you later guys.
00:14:22.020 You know, it was, it was, this is serious.
00:14:24.840 This was, I was in the courts of heaven.
00:14:27.360 I mean, that's, it was literally, they were presenting a case against me to God.
00:14:30.380 And, and, and, and so I'm sitting there now, I'm freaking out in the sense that I already
00:14:35.840 was feeling my body, what was going on.
00:14:38.100 It felt like everything was shriveling up, you know?
00:14:41.980 Um, it's like, you could feel your organs drying up.
00:14:46.360 Fear becomes a jacket, you like a living thing that comes around you.
00:14:51.040 Um, just despair, just, I mean, every, every negative, like emotion feeling you could think
00:14:56.460 of is there and then it's heightened.
00:14:57.780 And it's, I felt like a slug if you pour salt on it.
00:15:01.220 I felt my life literally just getting pulled out of me, shriveling up in, while I'm in
00:15:05.120 this hand, I feel my breath just getting pulled out of me.
00:15:08.360 And mind you, in, in, in real time, I, you're, you feel like you're connected to your physical
00:15:14.480 body.
00:15:15.180 So I'm still like five, 10% aware of what's happening in my body.
00:15:20.680 And every, you know, 10, 15, my wife's freaking out, you know, and during this time she's
00:15:24.700 freaking out and she doesn't know what to do.
00:15:26.480 She thinks, should I call hospitals?
00:15:28.440 What should I do?
00:15:29.380 But I know what's going on.
00:15:30.540 So I'm telling her, just pray for me.
00:15:31.760 Just keep praying.
00:15:32.360 Just like, like that.
00:15:33.160 I was like, just pray.
00:15:34.320 And then I'd, I'd get pulled back into, and I'd be in this reality.
00:15:37.280 And so, because you're, you're not in physical danger of death any more than any of us is
00:15:44.060 at any given moment.
00:15:44.900 If you were on heroin or something, you would have been in physical danger of death.
00:15:48.360 But as you said, consciously, you said, these are mushrooms, mushrooms at this dose,
00:15:52.540 they're not going to kill you.
00:15:53.840 God tells you, well, I can stop your heart whenever I want.
00:15:58.760 But that's, that's different.
00:16:00.020 It's not the mushroom.
00:16:00.800 So, you know, if your wife had said, hey, you're high on heroin or something, and you
00:16:07.620 said, well, don't call the doctors, she probably would have just called the doctors anyway. 0.99
00:16:10.400 There's a poison that's going.
00:16:11.520 But, but what you're saying is, no, my danger right now, though I feel it physically, the
00:16:18.640 danger that I'm in right now is a spiritual danger.
00:16:21.560 For sure.
00:16:22.040 And I mean, to be honest with you, to this day, I don't know how, like, if it was just
00:16:25.300 spiritually that I would have died.
00:16:26.500 Or, like, it felt physical.
00:16:28.200 Like, that's the thing.
00:16:29.260 Physically, my body was, was not functioning.
00:16:32.040 Like, it felt physical.
00:16:34.120 And the reason I say that is because people get this idea that, like, like, like I said,
00:16:38.760 like, oh, you can't die from this, you can die from that.
00:16:41.020 There's, you know, this, this spiritual realm is what is really deciding the physical realm.
00:16:46.080 So it's like, that was a major infraction.
00:16:48.740 Go to expressvpn.com slash Michael, M-I-C-H-A-E-L, letter Y, letter T.
00:16:53.680 It is ironic when you think about it.
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00:16:57.640 And yet, we're losing more privacy every single day.
00:17:00.500 Our phones are listening.
00:17:01.860 Tech companies are tracking everything.
00:17:03.660 It's all totally legal.
00:17:04.860 All right.
00:17:05.540 We need to make sure that we take our, our privacy and our property very seriously.
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00:17:47.120 The technical language for this is that the matter is just like the stuff that's in the spiritual realm is the form.
00:17:59.740 It's like our soul is the substantial form of our body.
00:18:03.480 Right.
00:18:03.680 And so people try to really neatly separate these two things, but that's not really how it works.
00:18:08.880 You are your soul.
00:18:09.840 You are your body.
00:18:11.920 Those things are together, inseparably, for now, in this world.
00:18:17.480 And so to try to say, well, no, that's just happening to my spirit.
00:18:21.340 It has no effect on my body.
00:18:22.500 Or this is just happening to my body.
00:18:24.000 What are you talking about?
00:18:25.520 You're both.
00:18:26.360 So that's like one of the greatest mysteries I'm not going to get into right now.
00:18:31.620 But that's, I mean, that's the mystery of it all.
00:18:33.800 Or not even really the mystery.
00:18:34.820 That's the truth behind it is that that's like the spirit world is happening right now while we're sitting here talking.
00:18:40.320 So that's what the first thing it showed me was my body is literally laying there.
00:18:44.520 My soul is literally in the spirit realm.
00:18:47.860 So this is happening right now.
00:18:49.460 So when you see people physically going through something, you don't know what is happening spiritually a lot of times, right?
00:18:55.420 So anyways, this is happening.
00:18:57.220 So I'm feeling this whole thing going on in my body.
00:19:00.840 I'm literally losing breath.
00:19:02.660 I'm crying out for God to have mercy.
00:19:04.000 But I'm thinking at this point, like God heard me by now.
00:19:07.300 Like either he forgives me or he doesn't.
00:19:09.700 So I'm kind of like I started to give up because it was exhausting me.
00:19:13.160 It was physically like it was giving me, like it was taking all my strength to speak, to say, God have mercy.
00:19:19.460 Forgive me.
00:19:20.900 I just felt the longer I was in his hand, the more I was, life was getting pulled out of me.
00:19:25.720 And at one point I started to give up.
00:19:28.740 I said, you know what, Jesus, forgive me.
00:19:30.220 I made a big mistake.
00:19:31.080 I'm a sinner.
00:19:32.080 I believe in you for my salvation.
00:19:33.620 I said, I'm letting go.
00:19:35.920 Like I'm going to give up.
00:19:37.280 I'm done fighting this thing right now.
00:19:38.840 And so I started to relax.
00:19:41.700 And I started to, but I'm still going through turmoil.
00:19:46.140 But I started to think about, my wife was pregnant at the time.
00:19:48.860 I have another kid.
00:19:50.460 I started to think about that.
00:19:52.760 And I said, no, I can't.
00:19:54.060 I said, God, I said, you know what, it's not about me.
00:19:56.640 I said, my kid needs me.
00:19:58.600 And so that hit me.
00:19:59.920 That was the next thing that happened was, oh, these people need me.
00:20:04.180 So I said, God, just save me for them.
00:20:06.920 And so at that moment I started to feel almost a slight pressure release.
00:20:14.200 And then I started to notice that at the top of the tower, like it was, like I couldn't look at it.
00:20:18.480 I knew, you know, it's the glory of God was up there.
00:20:21.240 I couldn't, I couldn't go look at it.
00:20:22.960 I knew it was there.
00:20:24.600 But I could see the rest of the tower.
00:20:26.060 And I could see that the source of that tower was at the top of it.
00:20:29.680 That was giving life to the rest of it.
00:20:32.060 And all of a sudden breath started coming.
00:20:34.120 Like I could, I could see like a little like breath would hit me.
00:20:37.980 And then I'd feel it hit me.
00:20:38.860 And then in that moment I said, every breath that I get is, he's literally giving it to me.
00:20:44.300 He's aware that he's giving it to me, consciously giving it to me.
00:20:47.220 And it was like, I was, it was like I would get the breath and it would, and I would make it last.
00:20:51.640 Because it was like, there was space in between.
00:20:53.420 And it wasn't like I could just like how we could breathe now, just as freely as we want.
00:20:56.940 I couldn't breathe freely.
00:20:58.320 I was breathing according to the, like.
00:21:00.160 And it's a beautiful metaphor.
00:21:04.460 And of course, as we're speaking here, there's really no such thing as a metaphor or literal.
00:21:10.060 I mean, what we're saying is these, these two things intersect.
00:21:15.340 The physical and the metaphysical.
00:21:17.340 And that you say you couldn't breathe.
00:21:19.040 And then God gives you that breath.
00:21:21.000 And this is the image of, that's, that is what the Holy Spirit is, right?
00:21:24.840 I mean, the bond of love between the Father and the Son.
00:21:27.260 And this procession of breath.
00:21:32.660 Which it says, yeah.
00:21:33.320 Psalm 33, that's what it literally says.
00:21:34.840 It says he spoke everything into existence.
00:21:37.540 And then it says his breath made man breathe, like, and gave the being, the hosts.
00:21:43.660 I'm now witnessing this.
00:21:45.020 Even if you've received the Holy Spirit, Christ says, right?
00:21:47.060 Breathe something.
00:21:47.800 Yeah.
00:21:48.060 Receive the Holy Spirit.
00:21:49.220 Yeah.
00:21:49.520 Wow.
00:21:49.660 And that's, so now I'm sitting with that.
00:21:52.820 But it's like, I start to get hope.
00:21:54.460 Because I didn't have hope at that point.
00:21:55.800 Like, I was just kind of just, I didn't know what to think.
00:21:59.260 It was just, I was just in pain and confusion, but also like just, just discomfort.
00:22:06.380 So now I start to feel like maybe there's hope now.
00:22:08.300 And so now the breath starts coming more fluidly.
00:22:14.740 And I'm starting to like kind of ease up.
00:22:17.660 And then all of a sudden, it was like this, this cloud of witnesses kind of came around.
00:22:25.700 Right?
00:22:26.180 And the Bible talks about that.
00:22:27.320 So this, these saints start coming out.
00:22:30.420 And they, I knew they were praying for me.
00:22:32.560 I just started to feel energy, love come from them.
00:22:35.940 And as they began to pray for me, I started to feel more alive.
00:22:41.060 And then all of a sudden, it was like a shadow of a cross came out, out the top of the tower.
00:22:44.980 It was like a cross came out.
00:22:46.740 And it was like the, the source of the top, his attention turned to it.
00:22:50.900 And it was this, because like I said, everything's telepathically and like, it's, it's all connected.
00:22:54.820 Like I, you, you know, what's, what everything is kind of feeling and thinking in a sense.
00:23:00.660 So it's like, I could feel God's attention turn to the cross.
00:23:05.940 And remember.
00:23:08.180 And then all of a sudden, I look over and out of the tower, Jesus starts walking out.
00:23:13.600 I see this man come walking towards me, out into the center of this abyss.
00:23:18.120 He puts his arm around me.
00:23:19.580 He looks at everything, all the demons.
00:23:21.140 He looks, he puts his arm around me.
00:23:22.420 He said, this one's mine.
00:23:23.360 He belongs to me.
00:23:24.780 And as soon as he touched me, I went back to my body and began going through deliverance.
00:23:31.520 Because you can't, Jesus, you can't, Jesus can't touch you.
00:23:34.360 And so everything that I had just allowed into my life, I literally was puking.
00:23:39.280 Like I never had a painful vomit like that.
00:23:41.440 I was puking my guts out, filling up garbage bags, little, like shopping bags.
00:23:47.080 Which is common.
00:23:47.800 I mean, this is, people, maybe not as intensely as what you're describing, but people always
00:23:51.200 talk about this really spiritual experience of ayahuasca.
00:23:55.760 They all vomit a bunch.
00:23:57.420 Yeah.
00:23:57.720 You think, that doesn't seem so beautiful.
00:23:59.440 Yeah.
00:23:59.560 And even the beauty of that image, though, where Christ walks out and touches you, and
00:24:05.080 you're back in the body, which is, it's an incarnational faith.
00:24:10.200 The pivot of history is the incarnation, the second person of the Trinity, the Son of God,
00:24:14.780 into flesh, and he was incarnate of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, and becomes
00:24:20.780 man.
00:24:21.340 And the fact that God, the Son, becomes man is this height, this perfection of the unity
00:24:31.040 of physical and metaphysical.
00:24:33.960 You think, no, the body, the body actually does matter.
00:24:35.980 We actually are these things.
00:24:36.780 And you see this in the sacraments that he gives us.
00:24:38.480 So this is, this bread is my body.
00:24:41.020 Yeah.
00:24:41.240 How do you make sense of it?
00:24:41.980 It only makes sense in an incarnational faith.
00:24:44.240 So the second he touches you, oh yeah, there's the body again.
00:24:47.980 Oh, right.
00:24:49.120 Oh, there I am.
00:24:49.940 That's, that's, you gave me a piece of it.
00:24:52.960 Because the funny thing about this story is there's so, so much that I'm still piecing.
00:24:56.580 Probably the rest of my life, I'll be piecing together parts of it.
00:24:59.700 And so I go through deliverance.
00:25:01.740 I collapse.
00:25:02.720 I puke my guts out.
00:25:03.680 I think it's over.
00:25:04.780 Because I collapse, I feel kind of that release of like, it's going to be okay.
00:25:08.280 And I collapse.
00:25:09.800 But now, when I collapse on the floor, I go back.
00:25:14.660 But this time, I'm in that tower.
00:25:16.280 And when I'm in the tower, now I'm in the light.
00:25:20.560 I know the darkness is behind me.
00:25:22.160 I'm looking at Jesus face to face.
00:25:23.920 And it's like, you don't see everything else.
00:25:27.420 It's like everything else fades away like a cinematic, you know, in your iPhone.
00:25:31.420 All I could see was his eyes.
00:25:33.080 And his eyes were like, like, almost like the earth.
00:25:36.500 Like, they were multiple colors.
00:25:38.100 It wasn't just like, oh, they're blue or brown.
00:25:39.520 It was like, there were shades of green.
00:25:41.380 There were shades of blue.
00:25:42.260 It was just like, they magnetically like pull you into him.
00:25:46.960 And then it also simultaneously pulls itself into you.
00:25:49.800 It's like this, like this.
00:25:51.900 So everything's just fading away.
00:25:53.200 And it's just, he's staring in my eyes.
00:25:54.960 He smiles at me.
00:25:56.260 And so he's smiling at me as if he's happy to see me.
00:25:59.860 I'm thinking about what just happened.
00:26:01.960 But he's looking at me as if, like, he was happy to see me.
00:26:06.860 And he said, maybe we shouldn't do that again.
00:26:09.160 And he smiled at me like, I love you.
00:26:12.320 And so in that moment, it's like, what do you do with that?
00:26:19.260 And in the moment, I'm receiving that, but I'm still stuck in what happened in the past.
00:26:24.800 You know, but I'm also now, scripture is flooding my mind.
00:26:27.560 I'm thinking about Psalm 73, for whom do I have in heaven but besides you?
00:26:30.560 Who do I decide on earth?
00:26:31.580 Like, literally, Jesus is all we have in heaven.
00:26:33.880 Like, it's because of him.
00:26:35.180 It's him alone.
00:26:36.180 Like, we have nothing else on our side.
00:26:38.100 There's nothing else.
00:26:38.840 Or, like, he's it.
00:26:39.900 And so that's hitting me like, oh, you're the one that came for me.
00:26:44.860 No one else.
00:26:45.480 There was no one else that could have came for me.
00:26:46.980 It was you.
00:26:47.600 The saints are praying for you.
00:26:49.340 Right.
00:26:49.600 But he comes for you.
00:26:50.860 Yeah.
00:26:51.280 But it's through him.
00:26:52.800 So it was like, yeah.
00:26:54.020 And so that's all hitting me.
00:26:56.000 And so he, like, starts, like, walking with me.
00:26:59.400 But I started to notice, because I'm looking around, and it wasn't like I was seeing everything
00:27:03.380 as clear as I'm seeing this room.
00:27:05.860 It was almost like there was a sheet over it.
00:27:08.380 So everything was kind of veiled, but I could see it.
00:27:10.960 So I could make out, oh, this is this kind of color.
00:27:14.680 Oh, there's a being there.
00:27:16.440 So I'm seeing light beings, kind of.
00:27:19.020 And I'm seeing that there's stuff around.
00:27:21.100 There's life around.
00:27:21.800 But I'm sensing that things, like, that these, like, angels or these saints, whatever they
00:27:28.220 were, were kind of disappointed in me.
00:27:31.020 Not mad at me, but it was kind of just like, you knew better, Josh, like, kind of thing.
00:27:35.260 Like, you know, and not, it wasn't a shaming way.
00:27:37.220 It was just like.
00:27:38.780 It's just what it is.
00:27:39.620 It just is what it was.
00:27:40.600 It was just kind of like.
00:27:42.020 It's wild.
00:27:44.340 I guess it shouldn't be wild that you describe it that way.
00:27:46.300 Because this is the scene in Dante's divine comedy, in Paradise, something I'm always
00:27:53.380 struck by when I, I love the poem, and when Dante gets up to heaven, he has wonderful
00:27:59.600 conversations with these people, one of his ancestors, saints, and the object of his love,
00:28:06.160 well, the ultimate object of his love is God, but he is sort of channeling it through
00:28:10.360 this beloved Beatrice, and Beatrice sends Virgil down on this mission to, you know, go pull Dante
00:28:18.660 out of his midlife crisis and the wayward way and pull him down through the pits of hell,
00:28:23.580 up through purgatory, up into heaven.
00:28:25.060 But she's not nice to him.
00:28:28.560 The first thing she says to him when she sees him at the end of purgatory going into heaven
00:28:32.800 is she says, he's crying because Virgil goes away, and Virgil's a pagan, can't go to heaven.
00:28:37.700 And she says, stop crying, non piangere ancora, non piangere ancora, cut it out, we've got
00:28:44.200 to go.
00:28:44.780 And then she goes up, and she's fairly steely-faced in heaven, and she's looking at God, and he
00:28:51.680 can see in the reflection of her eyes, that's how he's looking at her eyes, and he's seeing
00:28:56.700 God reflected there.
00:28:59.080 But she's not saying, oh, hey, buddy, good to see you, oh, attaboy.
00:29:03.720 She's like, no, reality is what reality is, and I'm not going to, I'll pray for you, but
00:29:10.460 I'm not going to sugarcoat it for you.
00:29:12.140 And that's what I think, like, we get sometimes this idea that, like, angels in heaven and
00:29:16.420 Jesus, it's like this teddy bear, like, oh, you know, like, and it's like, they're serious.
00:29:21.500 Jesus was about his father's business. 0.79
00:29:23.000 This is like a serious, God's about his will being done.
00:29:25.300 So it's like, this isn't a game, you know, it's like, why are we referred to as armies and
00:29:29.340 sports players and, you know, like, and soldiers and stuff?
00:29:31.740 Church militant.
00:29:32.380 Right.
00:29:32.780 And so that was very clear to me.
00:29:35.880 And so with that, I couldn't accept it.
00:29:39.080 Like, shame just hit me all of a sudden, and I took off.
00:29:41.680 Like, it's like, I took off.
00:29:43.180 Where I was at, there was levels to it.
00:29:45.720 There was different, like, dimensions of glory.
00:29:48.120 Where he brought me was a higher one.
00:29:50.280 I knew there was one or two above me, and I knew there was at least three or four under
00:29:54.500 me.
00:29:55.280 So when I looked down, I said, I'm going to the lowest part of heaven I can find.
00:29:58.920 As low as I can to, I want to stay here.
00:30:01.480 Good strategy.
00:30:02.360 Good advice and good strategy.
00:30:03.720 Yeah.
00:30:04.000 So I took off.
00:30:05.100 I mean, like, you think it, and you just travel.
00:30:06.940 You go.
00:30:07.320 You're there.
00:30:07.720 So next thing I know, I'm at the ground, and I'm on my knees, and I'm just worshiping.
00:30:11.220 I didn't want to look at anything.
00:30:12.580 I said, God, don't make me speak ever again.
00:30:14.460 I'm not worthy to speak.
00:30:16.000 I said, all I want to do is worship.
00:30:18.480 I said, just let me worship.
00:30:19.740 And so that was, like, the next thing that 100% hit me of, you're giving me this breath.
00:30:26.160 The only thing that I should do with it is give it back to you in a way that pleases you.
00:30:31.340 So it's like, I don't really want to, like, just let me worship.
00:30:34.360 That's the only heart response to what's going on right now, and to realizing where I'm at.
00:30:40.240 I shouldn't be here.
00:30:41.600 But then Jesus came down, and he comforted me.
00:30:44.680 You know, it was, like, this moment of let it go, like, just you're here.
00:30:50.960 Embrace it.
00:30:51.520 So I started to ascend back with him, and then it was, like, I switched.
00:30:55.760 I wasn't with him anymore.
00:30:57.680 I was in this, almost this bubble of, like, just, like, colors was, like, flying by me,
00:31:05.000 and it was, like, downloads were just flooding through me.
00:31:07.960 I felt like I was hooked up to a machine.
00:31:09.960 You see people, like, hooked up to those machines.
00:31:11.500 They're, like, that's what it felt like.
00:31:13.200 I felt like I was hooked up to this machine, and every question I had was just flooding through me
00:31:18.340 to the point where I said, stop.
00:31:20.680 You're going to kill me.
00:31:22.260 It was, like, God's love and his wrath, his grace, and everything was all mixed in one, almost.
00:31:29.060 It was, like, this, you're being too good to me.
00:31:32.640 I don't deserve it.
00:31:33.740 It was, like, all, and everything I want to know is coming to me.
00:31:36.880 Everything I could ever think about in my life and wanting to understand is coming to me.
00:31:40.640 I'm getting all this, it's just flooding me.
00:31:42.960 It's just hitting me all simultaneously.
00:31:45.420 In a matter of minutes, it's, like, download, download, download, download.
00:31:48.480 Everything made sense.
00:31:50.220 And I literally was crying out to stop.
00:31:52.800 I said, stop, show me this.
00:31:54.040 Stop, show me this.
00:31:55.060 It's going to kill me.
00:31:55.740 It's going to kill me.
00:31:56.460 It's going to kill me.
00:31:57.640 And then next thing I know, I just started, it started, like, lightening up,
00:32:01.780 and then I'm back in my body.
00:32:04.320 And it was just, like, it's over.
00:32:07.480 But I didn't really want it to be, you know, like, over now, because now I'm, like, it was, like, all right.
00:32:13.080 Well, you see the same experience that you're describing when God's face passes by in Genesis.
00:32:21.420 You say, don't look directly, you can't, you will die if you look directly at the face of God.
00:32:27.800 You can look at the back of his head, but the sense that you'll be overwhelmed, because you're finite.
00:32:33.560 Yeah.
00:32:34.080 And so you can't comprehend God.
00:32:37.280 It is not, that's not going to work.
00:32:39.280 Yeah.
00:32:39.780 It's like, if he were totally comprehensible by you, he wouldn't be God, and you wouldn't be you.
00:32:44.180 Right.
00:32:44.840 No, I mean, it reminded me of, like, when Paul said, there's things I've seen I can't tell you.
00:32:48.840 Yeah.
00:32:49.840 It's like.
00:32:50.560 And I see through a veil half-darkly.
00:32:52.040 Yeah, yeah.
00:32:52.820 As you're describing this veil, right?
00:32:54.460 It was too much for my natural body to contain.
00:32:58.880 And, you know, you reminded me of something when you were talking about Dante Zofrano.
00:33:02.160 And I haven't talked about this really yet, but what was, because I was baptized Russian Orthodox,
00:33:08.140 which is, I think, very similar to Catholic faith.
00:33:11.260 And somebody asked me, they're like, have you heard of the toll houses?
00:33:16.540 And when I started looking at the toll houses, I was like, I really feel like that's what I experienced.
00:33:22.560 You know, and I, so I didn't get this until after, but it's, it's similar to, like, purgatory.
00:33:28.920 And, and, and that's what, so I've been looking at the toll houses.
00:33:31.940 So you won't get out until you pay the very last farthing, that sort of thing?
00:33:35.100 That's kind of how it felt.
00:33:36.340 I don't, I mean, I don't know.
00:33:37.320 I just, when I read about what toll houses are, I'm like, that's definitely what it seemed like I was going through.
00:33:42.460 That's definitely what it felt like.
00:33:44.780 Because there was a period of, of hell.
00:33:48.780 It was, it was a form of, of hell, not the fullness of it.
00:33:52.120 Even the description that you have of the, of the trial, you know, that you're on, we're all in trials.
00:33:57.380 That's what, yeah.
00:33:58.880 Jesus is led by the spirit into the desert to be tested by, into a trial.
00:34:02.340 You know, lead me not into a trial, lead me not into temptation, deliver me from evil.
00:34:08.080 So you come to, your wife is there.
00:34:13.260 Then what?
00:34:14.240 How's the, how's the story end?
00:34:15.520 Yeah.
00:34:15.800 I guess the story's still going on.
00:34:16.620 And she, she's freaked out.
00:34:18.340 Like, basically, like, she doesn't really know what to think.
00:34:21.180 She's, and, you know, my wife didn't grow up in that world.
00:34:24.120 So she doesn't see this.
00:34:25.420 She doesn't, you know, she's just taking my word for it to just, like, calm down, relax, it's going to be okay, pray, whatever.
00:34:29.980 Like, so she's just kind of like, oh, I'm glad it's over.
00:34:33.820 I mean, what do you, what do you really say after that?
00:34:35.480 You know, it's not like there was a, a significant, like, reaction.
00:34:40.500 She was just freaked out.
00:34:41.400 And she's like, that was scary.
00:34:42.840 You know, and to this day, like, when this thing comes up, she's like, yeah, that was scary.
00:34:46.260 You know, and she'll say that.
00:34:48.200 And then I laid in bed and I was scared to move.
00:34:51.620 You know, for the rest of the night, I stayed awake saying hallelujah, hallelujah.
00:34:55.460 You know, and for the next three days, I didn't want to talk.
00:34:58.120 I was scared to talk.
00:34:59.160 I mean, that's what the fear of God will do.
00:35:01.680 I mean, the fear of God got so deeply drilled into me and not, I'm scared of God.
00:35:06.300 The, the acknowledgement of his holiness.
00:35:09.260 Wonder and awe, right?
00:35:10.300 Servile fear is different than holy.
00:35:12.880 The holy fear is that.
00:35:13.720 Exactly.
00:35:14.240 And so that was the main takeaway from it.
00:35:17.120 Like, God really is that, that holy.
00:35:20.280 And that, and that's so like, that ties into this whole, you're your own God, you're your own divine.
00:35:25.040 And it's like, because that's, that's what it, all, all my friends who have gotten sucked into this stuff, whether we're talking about chemical or just spiritual, or usually it's some kind of combination of the two.
00:35:38.400 And it always seems to come down to, you're your own God and you can do whatever you want.
00:35:45.580 You've got the power and you, you, you, you, you.
00:35:48.180 Like, if it's about you, you, you, you, you, you're probably not on the right path, man.
00:35:52.800 Yeah, yeah, I agree.
00:35:54.460 I think that, and that's, that's the, I think the, the big like difference to me is that God wants to create with us.
00:36:05.620 And Jesus is the, the, the center of everything.
00:36:09.040 The whole, this, these whole other movements, they take everything that God intended for us to have and, and not everything, but some things, and they just kick Jesus out of it.
00:36:18.540 And so, you know, and it reminds me of that parable where the, the, the guys said, I'm going to send my helper to the vineyard to get my fruit.
00:36:25.320 They beat him up, beat him up, I'll send my son.
00:36:27.560 They say, oh, we'll kill him so we can inherit what belongs to him.
00:36:30.360 That's literally what, what Satan has done.
00:36:32.640 He's, he's perverted everything that God has, took it for himself, and then made people afraid of, of certain things that God had created for people.
00:36:43.020 And he kicked Jesus out of it.
00:36:44.460 So it's like, you know, everything's gotten perverted.
00:36:46.740 I love the image of the cross as the axle on which the world turns, on which the universe turns.
00:36:51.960 You know, that's just, that's where it all turns around.
00:36:54.280 And you can deny that, but if you deny that, you're going to find yourself increasingly incoherent.
00:37:01.860 And you can, you can try to make a God of yourself.
00:37:04.980 That's the primal temptation in the garden of Eden is you shall be as gods.
00:37:08.720 But you're not going to end up as a God.
00:37:10.780 You're going to end up destroyed physically and spiritually.
00:37:16.740 So let's go.
00:37:22.220 Yeah.
00:37:23.720 Yeah.
00:37:23.960 Yeah.
00:37:24.620 Yeah.
00:37:26.160 Muchas gracias.
00:37:26.500 You.