The Michael Knowles Show - LGBTQ Pastor DEBATES Michael Knowles： Is The Bible Pro-Choice？

00:00:00.000 Jesus would not consider a fetus to be a fully formed human being.

00:00:04.760 I think you're on kind of weak ground here.

00:00:07.220 There is no scientific consensus of when life begins because it's not a scientific question.

00:00:12.200 It is a moral, philosophical, spiritual question.

00:00:14.960 Brandon, hold on. There is a scientific consensus on when life begins.

00:00:19.080 The whole point of an abortion is to end a life. 0.80

00:00:21.800 So you believe when a sperm enters into an egg, that is a human being?

00:00:26.920 Yeah.

00:00:30.000 I am joined, and I'm very happy to be joined, by Pastor Brandon Robertson,

00:00:34.520 pastor of Sunnyside Reform Church in New York City,

00:00:37.040 to discuss the question that we were going to talk about off the top.

00:00:39.960 Because President Trump is defunding Planned Parenthood, the pro-lifers are on the move.

00:00:45.060 Is abortion biblical? 0.72

00:00:48.880 Can Christians support abortion? 0.96

00:00:52.240 Pastor Robertson, Brandon, thank you so much for coming on the show again.

00:00:56.100 It's so good to be here, and I'm grateful in God's sovereignty

00:00:58.500 that it's me and you having a good conversation.

00:01:01.300 It's wonderful to have you.

00:01:03.220 Defunding Planned Parenthood is nothing new.

00:01:05.460 Republicans have tried to do this a number of times.

00:01:07.480 President Trump, despite his sometimes ambiguous statements on abortion,

00:01:12.360 has been the most pro-life president we've ever had.

00:01:14.500 He appointed the justices who overruled Roe v. Wade.

00:01:17.140 He's the first sitting president to show up to the March for Life.

00:01:19.540 He is going to defund Planned Parenthood.

00:01:20.920 So, I think his pro-life bona fides are pretty good.

00:01:24.600 Many Christians, most Christians, it seems to me, are celebrating that.

00:01:27.680 You are not, because you think that a Christian can support abortion. 1.00

00:01:32.320 I do think Christians can support abortion, 0.99

00:01:34.280 but I do want to say also that it is just concerning the way Trump is going about

00:01:38.440 defunding Planned Parenthood.

00:01:40.120 This broad use of executive power, I think, should be concerning to anybody who cares about

00:01:44.580 democracy, because, especially for your side, what happens when liberals get in and use the

00:01:48.820 same executive powers to go after Planned Parenthood?

00:01:52.320 No, Brandon, on that point, were you concerned when Mr. Obama said,

00:01:57.280 forget about the legislature, I've got a pen and a phone.

00:02:00.040 Look, I didn't like that at the time, but your point on the hypothetical future use of power by

00:02:05.240 liberals, sure, that's bad, but I don't need to worry about the hypothetical,

00:02:07.860 because they're already doing it. So, from my perspective, at least, I think, look,

00:02:10.880 would I like this stuff codified in law? Yes, but I'll take it. However Trump can do it,

00:02:15.260 I'm in. I'm all for executive defunding of Planned Parenthood.

00:02:19.060 But the way he's doing it is so interesting. He's defunding nine Planned Parenthoods from a

00:02:23.320 55-year-old program because they support DEI and supposedly stand for immigration. It's a very

00:02:29.480 backwards way to try to defund some Planned Parenthoods and not all of them, and it's just bizarre

00:02:35.600 from where I sit from a political standpoint. Well, sometimes I think, you know, President

00:02:41.000 Trump is wise as a serpent, innocent as a dove. He certainly aspires to that, and I think he

00:02:46.280 achieves it quite frequently. And so, anyway, if you could defund Planned Parenthood because the

00:02:53.660 Planned Parenthood lunch kitchen failed the health inspection because they had one mouse in there,

00:02:59.380 I'm all for it. You know, obviously, the real reason to defund it is because they're killing

00:03:03.600 babies. But if it, beyond that, however you got to do it, if it's because there's a crack in their

00:03:08.760 roof and, you know, it's not safe to inhabit, fine by me. What is the argument? I mean, what is the

00:03:14.680 basic argument? You know, I'm a macro-snapping papist, as I've mentioned once or twice, even in

00:03:18.840 this very segment. And the Catholic Church has been consistent for 2,000 years that abortion is not to

00:03:26.220 be permitted, going back to the didache, going back to the earliest catechism that we have.

00:03:30.460 Well, to that point, I actually, I mean, my position, I would say, actually leans on a lot

00:03:35.220 of some of the early Catholic saints and theologians. You know this argument. There has

00:03:39.940 been a large degree of diversity in Christian theology about when exactly life begins. You

00:03:46.100 have Augustine and Thomas Aquinas having this belief that sometime after conception, and there's

00:03:52.320 varying degrees of dates and times when that happens, that they believe life actually begins.

00:03:57.500 And I do think, to be very honest, that that is a question that's beyond all of our pay grade,

00:04:02.120 including the Magisterium of the Catholic Church's pay grade, to actually know the precise moment of

00:04:07.160 when life begins. But it does seem to me, from where I sit, understanding the science and with

00:04:13.600 my theological perspective, that life does not begin at conception. Conception is a potential life,

00:04:19.980 and that there are a number of reasons that a woman might need to have an abortion, and I don't think

00:04:25.720 that should be outlawed or illegal. And I think most Christians in the modern era have agreed with 1.00

00:04:30.500 that. In fact, you'll know, Christianity Today, back in the 1960s, published a whole entire article

00:04:36.360 that was pro-choice and advocating for abortion. So, it's a relatively recent move that we've seen

00:04:42.420 conservative Christianity really hamper down and say that abortion is this mortal sin that we must all

00:04:48.840 avoid. Well, it's certainly true on the Protestant side. And so, you know, worth pointing out here,

00:04:54.620 for the, you know, we have our own liberals in the Catholic Church, too, and we call them Jesuits.

00:04:58.480 But, you know, even they, even the liberals in the Catholic Church tend to be ardently pro-life.

00:05:02.800 I mean, some of the most, I think of one Jesuit in particular, Father James Martin, who's-

00:05:07.760 My good friend.

00:05:08.700 Exactly. I'm not surprised to hear that. But even he is ardently pro-life.

00:05:12.740 Christianity Today is a Protestant magazine. And, you know, I like that the evangelicals kind 0.95

00:05:18.260 of came over on the pro-life side. To your point on Thomas Aquinas, for instance, because this is

00:05:22.520 a great observation that St. Thomas Aquinas, it's a little unclear, especially if you're not totally

00:05:28.920 immersed in his thought, does Thomas Aquinas endorse abortion? Because he says that at a certain point,

00:05:35.000 you have the ensoulment of the baby, you know, maybe around quickening or something.

00:05:40.140 The reason for that, however, is based on a faulty understanding of how gestation works.

00:05:47.600 And it's no knock on St. Thomas Aquinas. He didn't have sonograms at the time.

00:05:50.380 But the belief, coming from Aristotle's understanding of biology, was that the only active principle in

00:05:58.040 conception was the sperm, and that the sperm acted on the blood of the woman. So there was no

00:06:05.200 conception, really, of an egg, that the sperm was acting on the blood, and it was in a vegetative

00:06:10.080 soul for some period of time until quickening, say, until you could feel the baby. And now,

00:06:15.760 not because of any theological developments, but because we have sonograms and things like

00:06:19.680 that, and because we have modern genetics, and because we have microscopes and things,

00:06:25.760 we can actually see that that's not when life begins. That the new human person,

00:06:29.640 with the full independent genome and the principles of life, you know, growth and metabolism and all

00:06:37.920 the rest of it, they all begin at conception. Conception meaning the very beginning. So,

00:06:43.280 your argument beyond, you know, when life begins, which you say it's beyond our pay grade

00:06:48.760 theologically. I don't think it's really beyond the pay grade at the very least of

00:06:51.840 scientists and biologists. You know, whatever you wish us, you could say, well,

00:06:56.320 the baby doesn't have a soul or isn't entitled to dignity because he isn't quite a person or 0.77

00:07:01.520 something, whatever, you know, which I think is silly. But at the very least, it's a human being.

00:07:05.140 It's an independent human being. He has the processes of life. So, let's get to brass tacks.

00:07:10.720 Why does a woman supposedly need an abortion? And why and when would Christians tolerate that? 1.00

00:07:20.480 Yeah, I mean, I think most people are familiar with these arguments that a woman who, for instance,

00:07:26.320 is facing severe health challenges, perhaps might die if a pregnancy moves forward. I think there 0.89

00:07:32.840 should be an opportunity for her to consult with her doctors and figure out whether or not it's 0.71

00:07:38.680 safe and good for her to carry out that pregnancy. The other common times that most people, I think,

00:07:45.520 agree that abortion should be considered is in cases of incest, abuse, rape. And again, I think 0.87

00:07:52.600 no one is flat out pro-abortion. I think most people are wanting some moderate abilities for

00:08:00.840 people to make choices on this very, I think, gray ethical issue about when precisely life begins

00:08:07.140 that women have the opportunity, if confronted with one of these terrible situations, to choose to not

00:08:14.360 move forward with a pregnancy without being thrown into prison, which is what many of these conservative

00:08:19.240 states are actually advocating for. Why would you say no one is pro-abortion? Seems to me the women 1.00

00:08:23.300 who go out and shout your abortion, for instance, are pro-abortion. But I'm more interested in your

00:08:27.480 take. Forget about those ladies for a second. Why is it the case that you would even be impelled to

00:08:32.360 say, look, look, look, no one's pro-abortion? Why not? Why wouldn't someone be pro-abortion? 0.86

00:08:38.540 Well, precisely the reason I said. I think this is a gray issue. I don't think we can know when

00:08:44.120 precisely life begins. I think I'm pretty confident, based on my understanding of the science, that in

00:08:50.040 the earliest stages of conception, what we are dealing with is not a human being with all the

00:08:55.020 faculties and rights of a human being. Well, hold on. Faculties and rights are, certainly rights is

00:09:00.680 not the purview of a natural scientist, but even faculties, sure, I totally grant a baby at four days

00:09:08.000 gestation does not have the faculties that I do right now. I know some people who seem like they have

00:09:13.380 those faculties, but we are supposed to have more advanced faculties. But now we're getting into the

00:09:18.340 realm of ethics, philosophy, and theology. Yeah. Or is it your belief that human beings get their

00:09:27.960 rights or else their dignity from the exercise of their faculties of reason? Surely you wouldn't say

00:09:32.700 that. No, but I do think a human being needs to be born to have the fullness of rights. Why?

00:09:39.340 Even in liberal states, we've had protection of babies in the womb. Like if a pregnant mother's 1.00

00:09:44.600 murdered, it'd be a double homicide until recently in New York. And totally. And I would agree that,

00:09:50.360 again, the line is murky at when exactly we move from potential life to life. I do think towards the

00:09:56.600 end of a pregnancy, we're dealing with a fully functioning human being, quite obviously. Science

00:10:01.160 is clear. The sonograms show a fully functioning human being. But up until that process, that is not the

00:10:07.600 same thing as a fully functioning human being. A fetus does not have all of the abilities that

00:10:13.700 we have as a human. It's a potential. A two-year-old child doesn't have all the faculties

00:10:17.820 and abilities that I have. You know, I guess I'm just, I'm, no, I promise you, I have a two and a

00:10:24.240 half year old kid, you know, and he's very capable and he's precocious and everything. But there are

00:10:28.640 many things that I can do that he can't do. I can, I can like screw in a light bulb. I can drive a car.

00:10:32.780 I can do math. But that's talking about learning. That's talking about learning. But the brain

00:10:38.480 capacity is there and it will continue to grow into a full human brain. It will continue to grow,

00:10:42.500 exactly. And I guess that's my point for babies in the womb. I think you're on kind of weak ground

00:10:50.080 here because I guess the question you have to answer is, on what grounds do human beings possess

00:10:57.280 rights or dignity at all? And your answer seems to be something like, well, you know, when they can,

00:11:01.880 when they look more like us or when they can move around a little bit more, who knows when they can

00:11:06.340 like cry out to mama or something like that. But that's not my argument. My argument is human beings

00:11:11.160 derive their dignity because we're rational creatures, because we are the sort of creature

00:11:15.720 that reasons. And a little baby in the womb doesn't reason. And a two-year-old toddler doesn't 0.62

00:11:21.900 reason. And a person who's severely mentally retarded or in a coma or actually just asleep doesn't reason 0.97

00:11:27.140 either. But it doesn't mean that you can kill any of those people. They are human beings.

00:11:31.220 They have the material, you know, the matter of human beings. And I think they have clearly the

00:11:36.880 substantial form of human beings as they are developing, even by your admission, into a fully

00:11:41.620 grown adult. Again, well, first, did I hear you say that the dignity of humans comes when they can use

00:11:48.540 those faculties? No, no, no, no. Quite the opposite. Okay. Got it, got it, got it. Human dignity comes because

00:11:54.160 we are rational creatures, which is to say we are the kind of creature that in principle can reason.

00:12:00.840 Now, if someone has a traumatic brain injury, he might, or if he's born severely retarded or 0.98

00:12:05.740 something like that, or as I pointed out, even if he's just kind of a sleeper in a coma, he no longer

00:12:10.160 can reason. That doesn't mean that we can kill him. He doesn't lose his dignity. He doesn't lose

00:12:14.240 his rights. He's just, he's still, he's still the kind of creature that can reason.

00:12:19.840 Yeah. I think the big difference here, and I agree on so many of these issues, I think the

00:12:25.420 difference between kind of the progressive theological community and the conservative

00:12:29.700 slash Orthodox Christian community is your side calls things black and white that I don't think 0.88

00:12:36.220 we can know in humility. As human beings with limited capacities, there are things we can't know

00:12:41.520 to be absolutely true black and white. And I do think when does life begin is a question that we

00:12:47.980 have been debating in Christianity since the beginning. I reject the notion that you began

00:12:52.800 the segment with, that this has been somehow the consensus for 2,000 years. There has been a

00:12:57.380 diversity of opinion for 2,000 years. And so, of course- A diversity of opinion among people.

00:13:01.680 I made the, I suppose, more modest claim, though I don't know if it's really all that modest in the

00:13:07.140 end, that the Catholic Church, at the very least, has been consistent. And you raised

00:13:11.460 the good point of, well, what about Thomas Aquinas? You know, he's the greatest doctor

00:13:15.220 of the church. And he says that, you know, babies aren't really like babies until a little while

00:13:19.980 after. But then I pointed out, well, Thomas Aquinas simply thought that conception occurred

00:13:25.380 later than we would now say, even a secular person would now say, conception occurs. So all I'm saying

00:13:30.820 is the Catholics have been consistent, at least since the didache. And certain other flavors of

00:13:36.220 Christianity have not been. But all flavors of Christianity read the Bible and see John the

00:13:41.120 Baptist dancing in the womb at the visitation. How? You wouldn't encourage Elizabeth to kill John

00:13:48.740 the Baptist? Elizabeth's health wasn't on the line, as far as I know. And that was not a conception that

00:13:54.460 came out of abuse or anything like that. But- But if it had been, would you encourage the murder of

00:14:00.260 the prophet who is to make straight the ways of the Lord? Well, I don't think it's a murder to have

00:14:05.580 an abortion on a potential life. Would you encourage the ending, the termination of the pregnancy to end 0.78

00:14:11.720 the even possibility of the life of the prophet? Probably not for John the Baptist, because in

00:14:18.060 God's will and God's plan, that was what needed to take place. But the point I wanted to make was

00:14:24.480 that on your side, things do seem more black and white. You all take these very hard positions,

00:14:28.700 which I actually do think, and I mean this with a lot of respect, is an exercise in hubris because

00:14:33.900 it's humans declaring certainty on things that we cannot have certainty on. Whereas on my side,

00:14:38.900 I'm willing to say, I think abortion is a very tricky ethical issue. And I don't think we should

00:14:44.960 be drawing firm black and white lines on this. If a little orphan shows up to your door and is very

00:14:51.220 hungry and asks for food, do you think that the person whose door he shows up to should feed that

00:14:57.900 little orphan? Generally, yeah. Every time or are there exceptions, assuming he has enough food?

00:15:05.520 In the hypothetical, I mean, there are so many things that could be happening there, but yes,

00:15:09.140 we'll say yes. Yes, every time. So you're drawing a clear black and white distinction in all of your 0.53

00:15:14.700 hubris, in all of your pride and sanctimony. You're telling me that I need to feed that little hungry

00:15:21.940 orphan every time he shows up to my door. Where do you get off with this moral sanctimony?

00:15:28.060 That's not what I said. I said there are certain issues that clearly are above the pay grade of

00:15:32.460 human beings. And this is one of them. There is no scientific consensus of when life begins,

00:15:39.400 because it's not a scientific question. It is a moral, philosophical, spiritual question.

00:15:43.900 Hold on. There is no scientific consensus of when we should be able to have abortions.

00:15:49.620 There is a scientific consensus on when life begins. The whole point of an abortion is to end

00:15:55.560 a life. If there were no life that were growing that had the markers of life, the seven markers of

00:16:02.080 life that are agreed upon by scientists, that was biologically human, that was an independent human,

00:16:07.120 not just like a fingernail or a hair follicle from the mother that isn't a parasite. That fact is

00:16:14.100 established. It's the reason we have abortion in the first place. They might say, well,

00:16:17.900 this kind of abortion is bioethically defensible, but you can't say it's not a life. 0.95

00:16:24.340 I can say. I think it's a potential life. I would make that distinction. I think many,

00:16:27.900 many people make that distinction that you've heard this argument. It's not perfect, but a seed is not

00:16:33.200 a tree. And if you stop the seed from germinating and growing, that's not the same as killing a tree.

00:16:39.680 A potential life is not the same as a life and a potential life.

00:16:44.920 Like an egg. I would grant you an egg or a sperm that they're not a human being,

00:16:49.340 but when they come together, they grow, not like a seed that you have on your everything bagel.

00:16:55.400 They come together as a distinct creature, which is fully human and genetically totally different from

00:17:03.420 the egg or the sperm in itself and totally different from the mother. Beginning Palm Sunday,

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00:18:20.320 So you believe when a sperm enters into an egg, that is a human being?

00:18:25.460 Yeah.

00:18:27.320 Most people believe that.

00:18:29.780 I don't think so.

00:18:30.720 I think Planned Parenthood believes that.

00:18:32.440 That's why, for instance, when Planned Parenthood performs an abortion, kills a baby, Planned Parenthood 0.83

00:18:38.480 was caught on camera admitting this. Planned Parenthood will take the baby and take the body parts of the 0.95

00:18:44.560 baby and sell them to researchers who are doing work and performing research and experiments to

00:18:50.140 develop drugs and other procedures for human beings. If the baby weren't a human being, if the

00:18:55.520 baby's life had not been ended, they wouldn't be able to do that. Planned Parenthood wouldn't be able

00:18:58.540 to make that sale.

00:18:59.280 I don't think I, first of all, I don't know that situation enough, but that does sound horrifying.

00:19:06.680 And I will, but I will say that I do think we can say that up until the point, at some point in the

00:19:13.860 period of gestation, that this person becomes a person. That at the beginning of a pregnancy, when

00:19:22.280 a sperm and an egg come together, that is not the same thing as a fully functioning human being with

00:19:26.720 all the faculties of a human being. Okay. So we agree on this. We're kind of talking in circles.

00:19:31.520 It's true. You know, the baby at six months old or five years old or whatever, it's not exactly the

00:19:35.580 same thing as you, a grown person, but it would seem to me still a human being. And I don't see

00:19:44.520 much argument against that. One, a more audacious claim that is made, not by you, but by one of your

00:19:49.240 fellow progressives, is that our Lord not only would sanction abortion, but that he would work 0.95

00:19:56.500 at Planned Parenthood. Just take a listen to this clip that was going around.

00:20:00.300 If Jesus were here today, he would be a clinic escort, distracting women from the hatred of the 0.94

00:20:09.660 protesters, or an abortion doula, holding women's hands and offering support and love as they end

00:20:18.080 their pregnancies. And I expect he would have a stern word for self-righteous legislators who use

00:20:25.180 abortion as a political issue rather than showing compassion for the people seeking abortions.

00:20:30.640 Okay. I don't know what denomination that priestess finds herself a cleric in, but do you agree with

00:20:37.220 that statement? Not only would our Lord tolerate abortion, he would volunteer at Planned Parenthood to

00:20:42.960 help them be performed. It might be unsurprising to you, even though I'm a very rational progressive,

00:20:49.320 that I actually do agree with her. Wow. I didn't know. I actually didn't know if you would agree

00:20:54.380 with her or not. Yeah. The reason is, I would say two things. One, 96%, I believe, of the services that

00:21:01.360 Planned Parenthood provides are not abortion. It's cancer screenings, it's STI tests, and things like

00:21:07.480 that. Mammograms, yeah. I don't know. They haven't performed a lot of those. Well, they don't perform

00:21:10.620 mammograms, though they used to say that they did. But come on. Does Planned Parenthood exist to hand out a

00:21:17.360 condom to someone, and each time they hand out a condom, it counts as a service? Or does Planned

00:21:21.800 Parenthood exist to perform abortions? I have gone to Planned Parenthood many times in my own life for

00:21:27.980 testings and general health treatments, and I've never had an abortion. So my own anecdotal...

00:21:34.140 If I came forward then and I said, okay, 97% of what Planned Parenthood does is give tests to Pastor

00:21:40.680 Brandon. And no one really finds that controversial. So you know what we're going to do? We're just

00:21:47.080 going to eliminate the 3%. It's barely anything Planned Parenthood does anyway. These abortions 1.00

00:21:52.020 that don't even really matter to Planned Parenthood. Let's just eliminate that. Some other organization

00:21:55.040 can do that. Planned Parenthood is just going to do tests for Brandon and all the other wonderful

00:21:59.060 services they supposedly provide. Good. We agree. We have political consensus, right? Would they go

00:22:03.720 for that? Would you go for that? I wouldn't go for that because, again, I don't think abortion is a

00:22:08.740 sin. I don't think abortion is... But you don't even think it's a minor part of what Planned Parenthood does,

00:22:12.200 this is really my point here. You realize that's the heart of what Planned Parenthood does.

00:22:16.260 Otherwise, you could split it off.

00:22:18.140 I don't think the numbers actually air that out. But I do think that abortion is what Planned

00:22:23.620 Parenthood is known for, primarily because of the right targeting Planned Parenthood as this leading

00:22:29.540 organization representing abortion. But to the point, I think Jesus is going to be with people in

00:22:36.660 the height of struggles, in the height of the hardest decisions that we make. I think Jesus is with

00:22:41.180 people in the height of those struggles. And I believe Jesus is with all of the women.

00:22:44.860 Would he facilitate abortion? He's with us. He's always with us. Would he facilitate abortion, 0.58

00:22:48.720 which is her claim? Yeah, I think he would walk a woman into a Planned Parenthood and sit with her

00:22:53.320 as they're making a decision to go forward with an abortion. I don't think Jesus is a doctor,

00:22:57.720 so I don't think he's going to actually carry it out. He certainly is a doctor. Doctor means teacher.

00:23:03.140 He is the teacher because he's the divine logic of the universe. But our Lord speaks a lot

00:23:09.340 about the little ones. Let the little ones come to me. Whoever scandalizes one of these little ones, 1.00

00:23:15.340 it would be better for him to be thrown with a millstone into the water. You don't think he would

00:23:21.140 take a little bit of issue with abortion, with murdering a baby? I don't think those little

00:23:28.380 ones are fetuses. No, I think he's talking about fully- You don't think the fetuses are little?

00:23:32.020 Children. I think they're little. You're good on that. I think that Jesus would not consider

00:23:39.000 a fetus to be a fully-formed human being. And again, I think many Christians, including Augustine,

00:23:45.700 who says the law does not provide that what is not yet a man should be treated as a man,

00:23:50.560 would agree with me. But the baby's a man. He's a man in the sense, in the beginning,

00:23:55.240 God created man. Both male and female created he them. He's not a man like he doesn't shave,

00:23:59.080 but he's a man in the sense that he's a human. He's a human being.

00:24:02.300 To use Augustine's language, I will say it's not yet a man. It's a potential man.

00:24:09.160 He's a man. Oh, man. Oh, man. Oh, man. Oh, man. To say that he's a potential man,

00:24:15.780 it's murky language. Would you call a five-year-old a potential man, or would you say a

00:24:21.580 five-year-old is a man? Well, I don't like to do it. Let's use the word human.

00:24:26.040 Yes. Well, now you want to use the word human, but hold on. We're trying to understand what

00:24:29.700 St. Augustine is saying. Would you call a five-year-old boy a man, or would you call him

00:24:33.700 a potential man? I think the way that Augustine was using the word man, he would call a five-year-old

00:24:37.980 boy a man. But he wouldn't, would he call a one-year-old boy a man? Yes. Would he call a baby

00:24:45.140 two days before his due date a man in his mother's womb? Not two days before. No. Okay. All right. 0.55

00:24:51.660 So where do you find that in Augustine? Where do you find that distinction? It seems to me you're

00:24:55.800 conveniently flipping the meaning of the word man. On the one hand, to refer to a human being,

00:25:01.880 and then on the other hand, to refer to a fully grown type of human being.

00:25:05.780 Are you seriously suggesting that in Augustine's quote, the law does not provide what is not yet

00:25:11.560 a man should be treated as a man, which is talking about the process of a fetus in a womb. 0.64

00:25:18.800 And that's what he's talking about. And no, no, I think, I, yeah, I think one can understand

00:25:24.980 at a broad level that we shouldn't treat a five-year-old as a fully grown man for the

00:25:30.140 purposes of say, moral culpability. So that would be one way in which we shouldn't treat as a man,

00:25:34.620 that which is not yet a man. We should not treat it going all the way back. We should not treat a 0.86

00:25:40.580 sperm and an egg as a man. They are not men. They're not human beings even. But you believe

00:25:47.380 something magical happens, the moment a sperm meets a vegan, it becomes human. 0.81

00:25:50.060 No, I think something natural happens. I don't think something magical happens. I think something

00:25:52.980 natural happens when a sperm meets a human.

00:25:53.940 Well, I do think it's magical. I think conception is magical in a great way.

00:25:57.900 It's wondrous and impressive. Yeah. But if you think it's so magical in the sense that it's

00:26:01.940 wondrous and awe-inspiring and impressive, why would you? Why? Why is it? I thought it was just a

00:26:07.020 little meaningless clump of cells that we can just get rid of whenever we wanted. Why is the

00:26:11.240 conception so magical?

00:26:12.840 You got to stop listening to the far, far, far left. I think most of us are far more reasonable

00:26:17.480 than that. We never just say it's all just a clump of cells. I think the process itself

00:26:21.280 is a remarkable process. Brandon, respectfully, the far left is much more reasonable on this

00:26:26.320 issue than the position you've staked out. Because the far left is wrong. I mean, they'll

00:26:30.240 just pretend that the baby's not a baby and they'll change the law. Sure. But they'll go so far as to

00:26:35.840 change the law in New York to permit abortion up until the moment of birth. And you're saying,

00:26:40.580 no, no, no, I wouldn't do that. But your view is totally incoherent to say conception is this

00:26:46.060 magical moment, this magical, wondrous, awe-inspiring thing occurs.

00:26:49.440 We'll say a divine, beautiful moment.

00:26:51.260 It's a beautiful, yeah. Why is it beautiful? What's so beautiful about it?

00:26:54.140 Because it's the potential for life to be formed.

00:26:56.940 When a man and a woman go on a date and order a bottle of wine, the potential for life to be 0.63

00:27:00.740 formed occurs, okay? And that's magical too, but I think less so than what you're talking about

00:27:04.880 with conception.

00:27:05.500 Yeah. Okay. I'll give you that one. Although I've never gone on a date with a woman and ordered 0.94

00:27:10.680 a bottle of wine, so I don't know. But I will say, I think my position and I think the majority

00:27:18.000 of progressives' positions today on this issue is that this is a murky topic about when precisely

00:27:24.360 life begins. But we are pretty sure that up throughout the process of conception and gestation,

00:27:31.880 what we're not, we are not dealing with a human being that deserves all the rights that a fully

00:27:37.140 born human being has. I think the theological and philosophical tradition offers a lot of room

00:27:43.120 for this perspective. There is murkiness about when precisely someone becomes an ensouled human being,

00:27:49.260 a fully formed human being with the image and likeness of God in them. And because there is

00:27:54.480 ambiguity about this, the bigger question that we're actually debating about here is whether this

00:28:00.180 practice should be criminalized.

00:28:02.440 Okay. Last question. Last question. Because you say, look, you don't have this clear cut view of

00:28:06.360 the far left. You have this murky view. You know, it's all just kind of murky. We don't know. We just

00:28:10.260 don't know.

00:28:10.920 It is. Life is pretty murky, Michael.

00:28:12.780 Okay. So if that's murky, then do you, when there's murkiness over the question of,

00:28:18.560 is it murder to perform a certain action? As you say, do you think it's better to err on the side of

00:28:25.500 caution or on the side of liberality? That is, if we don't really know at what point it becomes

00:28:31.440 murder to perform an abortion, should we err on the side of doing abortions or not doing abortions? 0.86

00:28:39.080 I agree with you that we should err on the side of caution, which is why those who advocate for

00:28:42.960 abortion and the scientists that work on pregnancies have done so.

00:28:46.620 But you pointed out the scientists have, no, it's above their pay grade. This question.

00:28:49.400 Well, I said the church, it's above their pay grade. But I think the point here is that we do

00:28:55.260 have some general consensus that what is happening with an egg and a sperm coming together in a womb

00:29:00.260 is not a human being. It's a potential for life. And so, yes, I think there are some serious ethical

00:29:06.860 questions when we get into late-term abortions, although I don't think those should be criminalized.

00:29:11.920 You don't even think the late-term abortions should be criminalized?

00:29:14.440 What happened to your reasonable view? Your view now appears to be no different than the far left.

00:29:19.860 It's just they speak with moral certainty and you say it's all ambiguous.

00:29:23.360 Well, no. I think that if your wife is the one laying in a hospital with a potential for death, 0.74

00:29:28.460 that is a really hard moral choice to have to make. And I don't think making that choice should

00:29:33.700 end someone up in prison.

00:29:34.540 No, well, you mentioned St. Thomas Aquinas earlier, and this St. Thomas Aquinas is a good guide on most

00:29:39.080 things. But here, for instance, if one's wife had a medical problem and the treatment of the

00:29:46.960 medical problem would result in the death of a baby, as does sometimes happen. Ectopic pregnancy

00:29:51.820 is a good example of this. Then through the principle of double effect, one could give the

00:29:56.160 wife the medical treatment, even if the unintended but even, say, inevitable secondary effect is the

00:30:01.620 death of the baby.

00:30:03.000 So you lose the goalposts. So it's not called abortion, but it's still, you're moving forward

00:30:07.100 with a medical treatment that might likely end the life of a baby.

00:30:09.940 Yeah, a woman has cancer, has chemotherapy, but you're, this is not particularly complex moral

00:30:14.880 thinking. The principle of double effect is like relatively basic stuff here. You are still not,

00:30:19.700 the treatment is not the abortion. The abortion can, or the death of the baby can be a consequence

00:30:24.400 of the treatment. Nobody disagrees with that. No pro-lifer really disagrees with that. A pro-lifer

00:30:29.000 might make a different decision in his or her own life, but no one disagrees with that moral

00:30:32.680 thinking.

00:30:33.680 Well, I will say that is what I'm talking about when I'm talking about late-term abortions.

00:30:37.100 I would consider that abortion, but yeah. 0.75

00:30:38.760 So you think we should criminalize elective late-term abortions?

00:30:42.500 I think on these questions, I think that's a very strong, morally ambiguous question that

00:30:48.980 So you wouldn't even, day before birth, New York's law, the New York Andy Cuomo law,

00:30:54.460 day before birth, it should be illegal.

00:30:56.440 Yes. Thank you for being more precise in exactly what that means. Yes. I think that generally that

00:31:00.940 would be illegal unless it's a situation that I consider abortion, which is making a choice for the 0.95

00:31:05.720 mother's health. A week before birth? 0.94

00:31:08.760 Again, we're going to keep going down the timeline, and I do think that there is a scientific

00:31:13.140 general consensus, and I'm not familiar exactly at this moment.

00:31:18.200 Yeah.

00:31:18.380 Five days before birth?

00:31:19.420 I think all of this is a strong, morally ambiguous-

00:31:25.120 Four days.

00:31:27.200 Yes, Michael, I think these things are wrong. Those things are wrong.

00:31:29.900 Four days? Okay. So, all right. The difference between Pastor Brandon's view and the radical

00:31:34.900 far left's view is the radical far left wants abortion up until the moment of birth to be legal,

00:31:38.940 and you, Brandon, say, four days before. That's the cutoff.

00:31:43.900 Again, I will say this-

00:31:45.080 Come on.

00:31:45.500 I will say, the legal question is the scary part here that I actually think is really consequential.

00:31:51.940 I don't think that you actually have very many situations where women are walking into a clinic 0.50

00:31:56.380 at nine months of pregnancy saying, I just want to end.

00:32:00.060 And there will be no problem. It's like with Planned Parenthood. Planned Parenthood does so few

00:32:03.200 abortions. It's so unimportant to their business. Great. Spin it off. We agree.

00:32:06.840 No, I think what this is is a great political talking point. And I think everyone in the

00:32:11.640 pro-life movement knows this, that you're choosing a very extreme case that almost never happens and

00:32:17.580 saying, well, come down on this so that you can keep gaining ground.

00:32:22.320 The pro-abortion crowd can so easily dismiss that talking point by agreeing with us. Oh,

00:32:26.660 this never happens. It's totally ridiculous. Forget about it. Great. We agree. That can be illegal. 0.94

00:32:31.160 But they won't do it. And I think the reason they won't do it is because they support it.

00:32:33.640 I don't think, I think that's a very interesting jump to a conclusion. I think that the point is

00:32:41.360 that we don't want to see people criminalized for making choices about their life, their bodies,

00:32:47.600 and the future of their lives and families.

00:32:52.140 What about, should heroin be illegal?

00:32:55.340 Heroin is not the same as-

00:32:57.160 That's a choice about a person's body. Much more a mere choice about a person's own body because it

00:33:02.220 doesn't involve another person or what you would call a potential person. So should heroin be

00:33:05.880 illegal or are laws against heroin use and fentanyl use totally immoral?

00:33:11.380 I mean, to be honest, on drug questions, I want to do a lot more research into that because I do

00:33:16.460 think the over-criminalization of drugs has been a negative, a net negative for our country. So

00:33:21.700 I think-

00:33:22.940 Legal heroin.

00:33:23.940 Yes. I don't think heroin is a good thing to do. Do I think that somebody who does heroin

00:33:28.760 should be thrown in prison? No. Or arrested or stopped in any way from doing it?

00:33:33.640 Well, arrested means imprisoned, likely.

00:33:36.240 Not necessarily. Should there be laws against, I don't know, maiming yourself or killing yourself

00:33:42.540 even?

00:33:44.160 Again, I mean, I think suicide is not a good thing, but I do think it's-

00:33:48.480 But it's murky.

00:33:48.920 How do you have a law against suicide?

00:33:52.200 We have many laws against suicide and have-

00:33:53.960 No, but like, how do you actually enact that? Somebody attempts suicide and you throw them

00:33:57.760 in jail? I think, no, they need mental health treatment. 0.82

00:33:58.840 Well, you force them into treatment.

00:34:01.020 Okay. If we're talking about treatment and if that's how laws about drugs work, I would

00:34:05.260 say yes.

00:34:05.860 Often that is how laws about drugs work. So then you support that. So you support some

00:34:09.340 laws that prevent people from doing what they wish with their own bodies, but not others.

00:34:13.760 No, not prevent them. That helps them get treatment. Yes.

00:34:17.020 Okay. All right, Brandon, I have kept you too long. We've run over, but I'm glad. I'm glad we

00:34:21.360 had this time together, Brandon. I look forward to the next time you're on the show. In the

00:34:25.860 meantime, where can people find you?

00:34:27.980 Follow me at brandonrobertson.com. And Michael, thank you. I appreciate your spirit of conversations

00:34:32.120 as always.

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The Michael Knowles Show - April 12, 2025

LGBTQ Pastor DEBATES Michael Knowles： Is The Bible Pro-Choice？

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