The Michael Knowles Show - Michael Knowles DEBATES Pearl Davis

00:00:00.000 But I'll see guys that take you guys as advice.

00:00:03.700 And sometimes, you know, it ruins their life.

00:00:06.560 What would men do if they begged you for advice?

00:00:08.900 Again, I'm not in the business of telling men what to do, you know.

00:00:12.440 But I think you kind of are.

00:00:13.360 Well, what percent of women do you think are marriageable?

00:00:15.700 I think you're squirting the issue.

00:00:17.240 People are not going to return to marriage until you make the institution more fair.

00:00:20.920 Well, what they'll do is they'll return.

00:00:22.080 It doesn't matter what you say.

00:00:23.280 It doesn't matter what I say.

00:00:24.500 You guys have been preaching marriage for a decade.

00:00:26.840 And the rates of marriage have still been going down.

00:00:28.940 Why?

00:00:29.400 Because the cost is too high and the quality of women is too low.

00:00:33.340 How do you fix it?

00:00:34.620 Do you want to get married?

00:00:43.560 We have a lot of controversy around these parts.

00:00:46.160 You'll be shocked to hear sometimes people don't like us.

00:00:49.120 They criticize us.

00:00:50.240 And yet, we have found someone who I think is even more controversial

00:00:55.440 and subject even to more criticism than we are in this building.

00:00:59.140 That would be my guest today, Pearl Davis.

00:01:03.140 Thank you for having me.

00:01:04.360 Pearl, thank you for coming on.

00:01:06.080 So I want to talk about the thing that you get in all sorts of trouble for,

00:01:09.640 which is marriage and your prescriptions for men and women and your observations of modern life.

00:01:15.960 First, though, I have to ask, you, first of all, are like 12 years old.

00:01:20.640 You're quite young.

00:01:21.420 A lady never tells, but you're quite young.

00:01:23.180 You burst onto the scene.

00:01:25.260 I think if you're not the most controversial person on the internet,

00:01:28.460 you're probably the most controversial person on Twitter.

00:01:30.780 Okay, yeah.

00:01:31.900 Twitter is funny.

00:01:32.920 How did that happen?

00:01:37.300 Gosh, it just, it happened so fast.

00:01:40.180 Well, it all started, I moved to London to play volleyball.

00:01:47.680 And essentially, what happened was I started reacting to red pill content.

00:01:53.740 And I didn't understand why men were complaining about dating.

00:01:57.560 You know, I kept hearing, like, men complaining about dating.

00:02:00.200 So I ended up doing a panel show where I interviewed 1,000 women about dating and relationships.

00:02:06.860 And I actually, I came to the point where I could see where the guys were coming from.

00:02:11.360 I had a second question, too.

00:02:13.000 I wanted to know, why don't men want to get married anymore?

00:02:16.480 You know, I grew up in a two-parent home.

00:02:19.040 My parents have been married for 30 years.

00:02:20.600 I didn't understand it.

00:02:22.780 And I came to find out that when men have children in this country, you know.

00:02:28.280 In this country, meaning the U.S.?

00:02:29.800 In the United States, you know, they're not legally entitled to their children.

00:02:34.220 And I think it's the biggest issue that we're facing right now.

00:02:37.740 Single mother homes, they lead to school shooters.

00:02:41.100 You're more likely to commit crimes, drug deals.

00:02:43.940 Every problem in society comes from single mother homes.

00:02:48.140 And so, you know, what I found is that men are not getting married,

00:02:51.880 not because they don't want relationships, but because they fear divorce.

00:02:56.740 And divorce rates, I guess it's not that divorce rates are skyrocketing,

00:03:01.780 in part because fewer people are getting married now.

00:03:04.080 But you observed that divorce is, one could say, is at the very heart of the political problem

00:03:11.800 because marriage, the family, is the fundamental political unit.

00:03:15.040 So you crack that up, you're going to crack up society.

00:03:17.040 Yeah, yeah.

00:03:17.780 So, you know, I have a documentary coming out called

00:03:21.480 Why Don't Men Want to Get Married Anymore?

00:03:23.320 Where it really dives into the problems as to why the institution of marriage is failing.

00:03:29.820 Okay.

00:03:30.520 So that answers why men are reluctant to get married now.

00:03:34.360 Now, what do we do about it?

00:03:36.440 I think the first thing you need to do is switch the laws to make them more favorable and fair.

00:03:44.040 So, for example, the tender years doctrine, do you know what that is?

00:03:47.380 The tender years?

00:03:48.260 No.

00:03:48.840 That assumes that the mother is the best one for the child under the age of seven.

00:03:52.560 In some states, it extends to 16.

00:03:54.680 Yeah, yeah.

00:03:54.940 That's an openly sexist law.

00:03:57.300 That's openly sexist.

00:03:58.520 What do you mean by sexist?

00:03:59.760 Because, you know, sometimes people say sexist and I, you know,

00:04:03.500 if they're referring to real misogyny or something, I don't like that.

00:04:07.360 But if they're saying men and women are different, I certainly agree with that.

00:04:09.940 Well, they are different, right?

00:04:11.820 But what evidence do we have that the mother is the best one with the children?

00:04:16.700 Well...

00:04:17.100 The kids are the most likely to be abused by the mother, not the father, by the mother.

00:04:21.540 That's a little unclear.

00:04:22.940 That's a little unclear because, for starters, you know, as you just acknowledged,

00:04:29.320 the children are much more likely to be with the mother.

00:04:31.120 Not only in the case of divorce, but also in the case of a married couple.

00:04:33.360 But why?

00:04:33.760 Daddy's at work.

00:04:34.440 But why?

00:04:35.440 Why are kids more likely to be with the mother?

00:04:37.000 The way the laws are set up, it punishes men for being traditional.

00:04:41.020 If you're a traditional...

00:04:41.580 When I say kids are more likely to be with their mothers,

00:04:44.020 I just mean because even in a traditional family,

00:04:46.800 I, daddy, am off at work right now and mommy is home with the kids.

00:04:51.080 So what's your point with that?

00:04:52.560 My point is that if...

00:04:54.780 And the statistics are a little unclear about this.

00:04:56.660 There was a number from HHS in 2009 showed that women are much more likely

00:05:00.880 to abuse or neglect their children.

00:05:03.360 There's another number from last year from, I think it was the National Child Abuse

00:05:07.380 and Neglect Data Set or something like that,

00:05:11.280 which found that it's a little closer to equal.

00:05:13.820 Women still have a slight edge on abuse, but it's close to sexual parity.

00:05:17.280 But then when you factor in...

00:05:18.780 Not the biological dad.

00:05:20.600 That includes stepdads.

00:05:22.760 Not the biological father.

00:05:24.200 No, that's biological father.

00:05:26.660 No, it's...

00:05:27.260 It is.

00:05:28.220 I'm...

00:05:28.660 Okay.

00:05:28.860 Which data set are you referring to?

00:05:30.680 Well, they've done comprehensive studies over the last hundred years.

00:05:34.560 But what do you mean by they?

00:05:36.480 Like, I'm referring to a very specific data set.

00:05:38.320 Okay, go ahead.

00:05:38.700 So, in that very specific data set, that would contradict the 2009 numbers from HHS.

00:05:43.580 But nevertheless, it would still prove your point, which is that the women are slightly

00:05:46.800 more likely.

00:05:47.660 But then I guess my point is, right, the women in marriage and outside of marriage are much

00:05:52.720 more likely to be with children all of the time.

00:05:54.580 So, there the parity is almost surprising.

00:05:56.140 You would see the abuse numbers go down as women have spent less time with children.

00:06:01.420 So, in the last 50 years, women have worked more.

00:06:03.640 Hold on.

00:06:04.020 You're saying that children are more likely to be abused in a traditional family with

00:06:08.640 mother and father?

00:06:09.300 Or you're saying single father and single mother?

00:06:10.980 I'm saying women are the most likely the ones to abuse the child.

00:06:13.600 And even if you include...

00:06:14.580 You think abortion is murder, right?

00:06:16.180 Yeah.

00:06:16.560 So, one out of three women's had an abortion.

00:06:20.060 I've seen some numbers that say one out of four, but the point is still the same.

00:06:24.160 If one out of four men committed murder, we would all be...

00:06:27.260 Though, yeah.

00:06:28.000 I mean, abortion is murder.

00:06:29.480 But also, you know, there's a lot that goes into that because there are...

00:06:32.800 And so, I just couldn't...

00:06:34.380 Sorry, go ahead.

00:06:35.100 Go ahead.

00:06:35.340 Well, you know, when we point to an issue like abortion, you know, obviously, yeah,

00:06:39.800 that's a...

00:06:41.140 That is murder.

00:06:42.280 It's not only morally synonymous.

00:06:43.620 It's the same thing.

00:06:44.580 But then also, you know, the male abortionists are involved in the murder.

00:06:49.340 The male legislators who pass the laws...

00:06:50.660 If I hire a hitman, I'm still responsible.

00:06:52.980 Sure, but so is the hitman.

00:06:53.840 He goes to jail, too.

00:06:55.720 Right.

00:06:56.100 But there's far more women that are hiring a hitman than men performing the act.

00:07:02.380 Well, I guess in every abortion, it's a woman who's procuring one.

00:07:05.440 Exactly.

00:07:05.940 That's my point.

00:07:07.100 And so, my point is that law is openly sexist.

00:07:10.560 It's sexist, but men and women are different.

00:07:12.180 So, shouldn't it be sexist?

00:07:14.180 Meaning, when a little baby calls out, a little baby is calling out for mommy, not daddy.

00:07:19.620 Now, I'm not saying this is good.

00:07:20.780 I think divorce is unacceptable in pretty much every circumstance.

00:07:24.100 But if there is going to be a divorce, it would seem natural for a little baby to be with the mother rather than the father.

00:07:31.820 Well, even if you look at infanticide, it's almost unheard of for men to ever commit it.

00:07:36.340 It's almost 100% the mother.

00:07:38.220 Well, that's...

00:07:38.820 And that's my point.

00:07:40.180 That's contradicted by one study.

00:07:41.460 I don't think it's right that men are not entitled to their children.

00:07:46.420 It's 50% their DNA.

00:07:48.040 It's 50% their child.

00:07:49.680 Why are they not entitled to 50% custody?

00:07:52.680 And if you look at...

00:07:53.420 They should be entitled to 100% custody within the context of marriage, which is indissoluble.

00:07:56.760 Right.

00:07:56.940 But to the point you just made where you said fathers don't kill their kids.

00:08:00.960 Again, I think statistics are basically fake.

00:08:03.480 But if people are going to cite them, I'm happy to cite them when they buttress my argument.

00:08:06.940 And there was a study that came out in 2017, I think, from Forensic International Science, something like that,

00:08:12.020 which showed that 57% of the time in cases of killing offspring, it's the fathers who do it, not the mothers.

00:08:17.640 Now, again, I'm sure that one can pull some other statistics to the other side.

00:08:20.600 Right, and you can go into the abortion stats, too.

00:08:22.200 And obviously abortion.

00:08:22.880 My whole point is that I think that men should be entitled to their children.

00:08:27.140 I don't think it's fair the way the system is.

00:08:29.520 You know, regardless of where you fall, it's not fair that women get custody 90% of the time.

00:08:34.940 It's not fair that men are always paying alimony, they're always paying child support,

00:08:38.460 and that they are punished for being traditional.

00:08:41.000 Because the more time they spend providing for their family, the way they calculate it in child support,

00:08:46.940 is they kind of do a, you know, I gotcha.

00:08:50.560 You know, you did the right thing.

00:08:51.500 You provided for your family.

00:08:52.580 Why are you punished in child custody cases?

00:08:56.620 You didn't do the right thing if you got divorced.

00:08:59.060 Right, but it's filed by women 70% to 80% of the time.

00:09:02.520 It goes even higher, actually.

00:09:03.460 And that's...

00:09:04.160 It goes even higher.

00:09:05.060 If women are, you know, college educated.

00:09:06.840 If women are college educated.

00:09:07.700 But I guess this is the key, bro.

00:09:10.040 That's the whole point.

00:09:10.460 To me, this is the key.

00:09:11.500 Because, you know, the liberals love to say, see, college-educated women, they favor liberal policies.

00:09:17.440 Which is true.

00:09:18.060 But I don't think that college education signifies, you know,

00:09:21.580 a particularly strong education.

00:09:22.840 To me, it's clearly a sign of liberalism.

00:09:27.380 So then, you know, I don't mean to blame the victim here if I'm talking about the men.

00:09:31.180 But it would seem to me, if you don't want to get divorced, not marrying a liberal woman is a good place to start.

00:09:37.880 But if the more liberal women are, the more likely they are to divorce.

00:09:42.360 It's almost like a truism, right?

00:09:43.800 It's like saying, the more likely a woman is to support divorce, the more likely she is to divorce.

00:09:49.300 Well, then why would a man marry a woman who would support divorce?

00:09:52.240 Well, what percent of women do you think are marriageable?

00:09:55.140 What do you mean by marriageable?

00:09:56.000 So, no tattoos, no debt, not overweight, doesn't openly hate men.

00:10:03.520 It's not the majority, Michael.

00:10:05.220 What's the number?

00:10:06.820 These are confirmed by an actuary.

00:10:08.840 It's less than 5%.

00:10:10.120 Which actuary?

00:10:10.980 Like, what study is it?

00:10:12.320 It's called It's a World Without Men.

00:10:14.660 It's a study or it's a blog or a book or what is a world without men?

00:10:18.540 It's a book.

00:10:19.160 It's a book.

00:10:19.700 And they go through the numbers that are confirmed by an actuary.

00:10:22.200 So I saw that book.

00:10:23.060 But you know this, Michael, even in real life.

00:10:25.800 You go on the whatever podcast.

00:10:27.860 I mean, you see Fresh and Fit Miami.

00:10:30.020 It's not like, and I've interviewed a thousand women.

00:10:32.640 A thousand.

00:10:33.360 I've interviewed Christian women.

00:10:34.620 I've interviewed Catholic women.

00:10:35.860 So I saw that book.

00:10:36.480 And I've interviewed, I've been on the other side of divorce.

00:10:39.180 And I've seen men that did exactly, they did the right thing.

00:10:41.940 But I'm skeptical of your number here.

00:10:43.260 Because, look, I'm not, it's a crazy world.

00:10:45.760 The women have crazy colored hair.

00:10:46.980 They have tattoos.

00:10:47.740 They do crazy stuff.

00:10:48.660 But I saw that book.

00:10:50.000 Maybe you had mentioned it or someone on the internet mentioned it.

00:10:53.320 And I didn't know, was it a study?

00:10:54.520 Is it a this or is it a that?

00:10:55.900 And it's this book by a blogger who does not really.

00:10:59.320 No, he's an economist.

00:11:00.880 So I read the book.

00:11:01.780 I hate to be, I would encourage people to take a look at the book.

00:11:05.540 There, I open up the book.

00:11:07.200 The first sentence of that book, there is one mistaken quotation and three grammatical errors

00:11:12.360 in the first sentence.

00:11:13.340 And then I looked for the 5% number.

00:11:15.360 The 5% figure appears nowhere in the book.

00:11:17.360 So, again, I'm not saying that the world is teeming with women who are traditional and,

00:11:23.300 you know, I don't know.

00:11:24.140 Would you agree it's the minority?

00:11:26.840 Who are marriageable?

00:11:28.340 Yeah, the minority.

00:11:29.460 Even if we look at just overweight.

00:11:30.620 I don't.

00:11:31.500 70% of women.

00:11:32.680 70% of women.

00:11:34.120 Sometimes I think you guys are so out of touch.

00:11:36.400 I don't think it's a disqualification.

00:11:38.440 70%?

00:11:39.240 You want a fat wife?

00:11:41.060 It's like, come on.

00:11:41.940 No, guys, this is what you're telling men to sign up for.

00:11:44.760 Well, what I'm telling men is, I guess what I'm telling men is.

00:11:47.900 And that's my point.

00:11:48.580 It's not the majority.

00:11:49.820 And when is the last time you dated?

00:11:51.980 Like 10 years?

00:11:52.580 You've been married for a while.

00:11:53.900 A long time.

00:11:53.940 So sometimes you talk and I just think you're a bit out of touch with the current dating

00:11:57.900 cards.

00:11:57.920 Okay.

00:11:58.220 No, that's fair.

00:11:58.820 You're saying I never swiped.

00:12:00.960 I never did any of these things.

00:12:02.180 Correct.

00:12:02.200 And I'm saying I've interviewed 1,000 women.

00:12:04.740 I could give you examples in real life, too.

00:12:07.460 I mean, that's a ton of people, Michael.

00:12:09.700 Sure.

00:12:10.680 Sure.

00:12:11.040 I have no doubt that the dating pool is difficult now.

00:12:15.440 And the problem is that the state is the legal enforcement arm.

00:12:23.160 That's by definition.

00:12:24.460 Correct.

00:12:25.140 So there's no way for a man to get married in 2024 without being entered into the state

00:12:30.260 contract.

00:12:31.080 But that's always true.

00:12:31.500 And so I understand.

00:12:33.720 But I understand men's hesitation when the quality of women has gone down.

00:12:37.960 I don't tell men not to get married or what to do.

00:12:42.720 I think every man has to decide for themselves.

00:12:45.360 But I don't think you're going to win a lot of support.

00:12:48.700 I think you have to understand the problem in order to come up with a solution.

00:12:53.420 So you are telling men, at the very least, you're observing that it is not advisable today

00:13:00.060 in 2024 to get married.

00:13:01.880 I would say that every man has to pick for himself.

00:13:06.960 But I think objectively, if me and you sign a contract and one of us is paid to leave,

00:13:12.740 you would never sign that business deal.

00:13:15.800 You would never sign it.

00:13:17.680 I did.

00:13:18.140 Right.

00:13:18.320 If you're saying that's the state of marriage now, I did get married.

00:13:20.880 Therefore, I did sign it.

00:13:22.540 Okay.

00:13:22.920 Well, congratulations.

00:13:24.060 But I think a lot of men are going to be hesitant to do that.

00:13:28.380 And you're saying it's rational for them to be hesitant.

00:13:31.460 Yeah.

00:13:32.580 So you're saying it's advisable.

00:13:35.200 No, not advisable.

00:13:37.320 But rational.

00:13:37.760 Every man, like, okay.

00:13:38.980 What's the difference?

00:13:39.520 I'll give you an example.

00:13:41.440 You, I'm not here.

00:13:42.560 I think men have had enough of women telling them what to do.

00:13:45.600 I'm not telling men to do anything.

00:13:48.260 But I think your situation is going to be completely different than the average Joe making $45,000 a year.

00:13:54.620 If your marriage goes south, you have the money to afford lawyers.

00:13:58.700 I have the money.

00:13:59.220 But I'm going to lose half my money.

00:14:01.200 What?

00:14:02.020 One of the...

00:14:02.660 But do you think you're in the same position as the average man making $45,000 a year?

00:14:07.400 The answer is no.

00:14:08.300 No, but I don't...

00:14:08.900 The answer is no.

00:14:09.700 I don't think it's because of my money, though.

00:14:11.560 You know what I think it's...

00:14:12.560 Because, well, look, when I got married, I didn't have a lot of money.

00:14:14.600 But now I have more money.

00:14:16.200 But I think there's a bigger distinction here.

00:14:17.860 Okay.

00:14:18.320 Which is, I am of a religious view and practice that does not recognize the reality of divorce.

00:14:26.820 Not only do we discourage it.

00:14:29.240 You know, I'm a mackerel-snapping papist, a member of the Catholic faith.

00:14:32.540 I'm Catholic, too.

00:14:33.720 You're Catholic, also.

00:14:34.620 I'm also Catholic.

00:14:35.720 So, marvelous news.

00:14:36.960 Yeah, yeah.

00:14:38.600 We do not...

00:14:39.400 And Catholics are not immune to divorce.

00:14:41.460 I have seen it.

00:14:42.480 I have seen it.

00:14:42.940 I've seen people getting married for the second time.

00:14:44.860 They still get communion.

00:14:45.880 And the number of annulments is going up.

00:14:47.540 That's not licit.

00:14:48.220 The number, it's...

00:14:49.560 That's a grave mortal sin.

00:14:50.800 No, but I know.

00:14:52.160 But it doesn't matter because it happens all the time.

00:14:54.680 But you can...

00:14:55.060 And so...

00:14:55.600 No, it totally...

00:14:57.040 I see someone who calls himself a Catholic that doesn't practice his faith.

00:14:58.260 We have a record number of annulments this year in the Catholic Church.

00:15:02.860 You cannot...

00:15:03.300 The Catholic Church is getting more...

00:15:04.820 You see the Pope.

00:15:06.360 And I think we could agree on this stuff.

00:15:07.940 The Pope, the Pope for, you know, all of the liberal statements that have appeared in the

00:15:14.220 press under his name, the Pope is generally pretty good on matters of sex and marriage.

00:15:20.140 He's pretty clear.

00:15:22.880 When you say, you know, Catholics get divorced, it has happened.

00:15:26.080 There's a distinction between annulments.

00:15:27.160 It's around...

00:15:27.760 I looked it up before this.

00:15:29.140 It's around 25, 35.

00:15:30.860 That's how...

00:15:31.240 Yeah, it's...

00:15:31.400 It's around...

00:15:32.260 Yeah.

00:15:32.640 It's around 35%.

00:15:34.040 And so that's not a small percentage.

00:15:36.040 What's the national average?

00:15:36.800 Like 45% roughly?

00:15:38.900 So...

00:15:39.060 Well, 2024, it was 50.

00:15:41.620 Okay, so...

00:15:42.140 So I know everyone splits hairs over like the 5, 10%, but regardless, it's not small.

00:15:46.860 So what that means then is that if you're a man, and I totally grant that dating pool's

00:15:52.580 tough and the economy's tough and the divorce courts are terrible and divorce laws are terrible,

00:15:57.080 I grant all that.

00:15:57.360 But they should sign up anyway.

00:15:59.660 Well, yeah.

00:16:00.040 No, before we even get to that.

00:16:01.220 Okay.

00:16:01.740 Before we get to that, one way to mitigate one's risk in marriage of divorce would be to

00:16:07.700 be just any old Catholic, right?

00:16:08.840 Because you then reduce the likelihood of divorce by 16% immediately.

00:16:12.440 Okay.

00:16:12.560 16 percentage points.

00:16:13.900 Much more than 16% from the 50% number.

00:16:16.400 So then, what if you're a Muslim?

00:16:20.480 Okay.

00:16:21.000 Divorce rates among Muslims, even a little lower, 30%.

00:16:23.240 Okay.

00:16:23.420 Divorce rates among Orthodox Jews, 30 as low...

00:16:27.040 There's a lot of different kinds of Jews, but it goes down to as low as 10.

00:16:30.160 And then you get down to a little more of the old school Catholics, which is kind of

00:16:36.180 how I practice.

00:16:37.780 There aren't great numbers on it.

00:16:39.020 Like, do you go to Latin mass?

00:16:40.000 Traditional Latin mass.

00:16:40.820 Okay.

00:16:41.100 The like.

00:16:41.620 Yeah.

00:16:42.420 That's a lot of patience.

00:16:44.040 But frankly, I find it...

00:16:45.520 No, it's good.

00:16:46.240 It's good.

00:16:46.560 Latin mass is a little better.

00:16:47.820 It seems like it goes faster than the shorter...

00:16:50.120 No, it's a little bit better in the Latin mass.

00:16:53.600 I'd agree.

00:16:54.060 But you know, when it comes to divorce, the numbers are a little sparse here.

00:16:57.540 It's like 5% to maybe 10%.

00:16:59.860 But the problem is with most of those stats, one, most of those studies were done before

00:17:06.100 social media.

00:17:07.460 Anyone that dated before and after social media knows it completely changed the game.

00:17:12.360 How do you mean?

00:17:12.980 Well, women now have access to men anywhere.

00:17:19.520 And cheating goes...

00:17:20.900 Like, dating...

00:17:21.940 You know, the number one way people are meeting under 30 is dating apps.

00:17:25.260 Yep.

00:17:25.600 You know, I mean, this is a completely different dating marketplace than when you were dating.

00:17:29.800 Though I guess...

00:17:30.240 And that's my point.

00:17:31.380 When I was dating...

00:17:31.980 There's no Catholic woman in divorce court.

00:17:35.480 Women will throw out their religion very, very fast when they want to leave.

00:17:39.740 You cannot pray a woman that wants to leave you into not leaving you.

00:17:43.620 I think you...

00:17:44.180 Don't the statistics I just cited show that you can?

00:17:47.000 Because the divorce rates are so much lower.

00:17:48.240 No, but the problem with those is they include women over a certain age.

00:17:50.600 The women under the age of 35...

00:17:52.400 You're saying it's different.

00:17:52.940 ...have been on...

00:17:53.520 Yes, it's completely different.

00:17:54.880 Yeah, I don't know.

00:17:55.460 And I think you can't really deny it with what you've seen.

00:17:57.940 You go on whatever podcast.

00:17:59.360 Are those the same women of our grandmothers and great-grandmothers?

00:18:02.800 No, it's completely different.

00:18:03.840 There's not a ton of Orthodox Jews and traditional Catholics on that podcast.

00:18:07.360 But I...

00:18:07.940 And perhaps there's a reason for that.

00:18:09.260 And if...

00:18:09.780 And you know, you've got to ask like the reputation...

00:18:12.020 What's the reputation of Catholic girls?

00:18:14.600 Well, what do you mean?

00:18:15.460 I mean, again...

00:18:16.440 That's my point.

00:18:18.380 My point is they have...

00:18:20.080 If there was an abundance of wives in church, Michael, the men would be lining up to go.

00:18:25.080 But they do.

00:18:26.200 The traditional churches.

00:18:27.220 Men are leaving the church.

00:18:28.920 Under the age of 35, young men...

00:18:31.540 You know, church participation is going down altogether, but young men are leaving the church.

00:18:36.140 What about the traditional parishes?

00:18:37.320 The traditional parishes...

00:18:40.780 They're exploding.

00:18:41.680 And it's all young people.

00:18:42.620 I mean, the median age is like 22 in these parishes.

00:18:45.120 And it's largely young men.

00:18:46.540 So I totally grant you that a lot of modern religion has become quite effeminate and has driven men away.

00:18:52.980 Right.

00:18:53.000 But I'm saying the Catholic church is not exempt.

00:18:56.040 It's absolutely not exempt.

00:18:57.840 I've seen a lot of the same trends in the Catholic church.

00:19:01.080 I guess my confusion is, though, you bring up these statistics, and so then we acknowledge the statistics that show that if one gets married, assuming that divorce is not a sacramental reality, that the likelihood of divorce goes way down.

00:19:16.400 But then when we say that, you instantly say, well, actually, now the statistics aren't worth anything because young people are different.

00:19:22.040 Wait, say that again?

00:19:22.880 Sorry.

00:19:23.700 So...

00:19:24.000 Wait.

00:19:25.140 We agree that the numbers for Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Orthodox Jews, and Muslims, divorce numbers are way lower.

00:19:35.540 And you acknowledge those statistics, but then you say...

00:19:37.820 No, I don't.

00:19:38.420 No, I don't.

00:19:38.880 You don't?

00:19:39.260 Okay.

00:19:39.540 All right.

00:19:39.620 No, no, because most of those include women over a certain age.

00:19:43.540 Right.

00:19:43.780 You're saying the young people, it's totally different.

00:19:45.240 That's a different time, Michael.

00:19:46.100 So what is...

00:19:46.440 And that's the same thing.

00:19:47.700 Like, the time my parents got married in is completely different than the time today.

00:19:50.560 So what changed?

00:19:51.340 Other than now they have...

00:19:52.280 So they meet on apps rather than at bars, and that's the big change?

00:19:55.220 That's why we can't believe the statistics anymore?

00:19:56.900 Well, the average marriage is seven years now, Michael.

00:20:00.300 Right.

00:20:00.600 But we've had divorce, expanded divorce for a long time.

00:20:05.700 We've had no-fault divorce in America since 1969.

00:20:08.300 So, you know, I acknowledge these are, by historical standards, relatively novel, but we're still

00:20:14.740 talking like 50 years, right?

00:20:16.660 More than 50 years.

00:20:21.420 I don't, you know, I just think a lot of times I hear you guys' advice to go to church and

00:20:28.580 find a good woman.

00:20:29.920 And I don't necessarily think it's bad advice in general.

00:20:33.120 But, again, I think that times have changed.

00:20:38.280 And I think a lot of times you guys are a bit out of touch with what the average man is

00:20:42.980 going through in this country.

00:20:44.440 Well, what do you mean by the average man, I guess?

00:20:47.940 Men come in all shapes and sizes.

00:20:49.880 So, you know, acknowledging the fears of the modern...

00:20:53.880 Do you think men have valid fears in getting married?

00:20:57.200 Do you think any of it's valid?

00:20:58.460 Or do you think they're making it up?

00:21:00.020 Yeah, I think marriage entails risk.

00:21:02.320 Okay, okay.

00:21:03.680 But there are ways to mitigate risk.

00:21:05.300 There are ways...

00:21:05.920 And it's a natural institution that we're holding.

00:21:06.840 Correct, correct.

00:21:07.220 There are ways to mitigate risk.

00:21:09.260 Yeah.

00:21:09.900 But, like, because I don't know, when you talk about this stuff, you guys are just...

00:21:14.960 Sorry, I don't mean to say you guys, but...

00:21:16.780 Please, generalize.

00:21:18.260 It's okay.

00:21:18.720 But sometimes I'm just like, how do you not see where the men are coming from?

00:21:22.300 You know, I've talked to men that did the exact same thing.

00:21:25.240 They took you guys' advice to a tee.

00:21:27.800 What's our advice?

00:21:28.400 Our advice is just to...

00:21:29.320 To marry...

00:21:30.260 I've seen a lot of stuff from the Daily Wire.

00:21:32.480 Yeah.

00:21:32.740 Okay, might be you, might be other guys that say get married young, right?

00:21:36.480 Yeah, it's good.

00:21:36.920 To sign up...

00:21:37.620 Okay.

00:21:38.100 But I'll see guys that take you guys' advice.

00:21:41.820 And sometimes, you know, it ruins their life.

00:21:44.680 Because they get divorced.

00:21:45.860 Yeah, and the divorce isn't like...

00:21:47.640 The woman ruins their reputation.

00:21:49.580 You know, calls him an abuser.

00:21:51.100 You know, and even, you know...

00:21:51.840 Yeah, yeah.

00:21:52.080 You know, calls him an abuser, says all these awful things.

00:21:54.900 You know, he hasn't seen his kids in two years.

00:21:57.100 It's awful, yeah.

00:21:57.760 And it's the saddest thing when you see a man that's going through a divorce.

00:22:02.900 So what's the alternative, though?

00:22:04.540 Because I totally agree with you about the risk and the pitfalls of modern marriage.

00:22:09.120 Well, I think that the laws need to change first.

00:22:11.780 Because regardless of what I say...

00:22:13.460 Before people get married?

00:22:14.120 Regardless...

00:22:14.560 Well, it's not about what I say.

00:22:16.340 It's about what people will do.

00:22:17.540 You guys have been preaching marriage for a decade.

00:22:19.620 Men aren't signing up.

00:22:21.200 No, men still get married.

00:22:22.360 No, but the rate of getting married is going lower.

00:22:25.320 Right, but we also...

00:22:25.880 Less and less men are getting married.

00:22:27.640 We redefine marriage at the federal level.

00:22:29.720 Correct.

00:22:30.000 You know, I mean, we've also had a divorce for 50 years.

00:22:32.160 Yeah, yeah.

00:22:33.060 Correct.

00:22:33.620 No, you're right.

00:22:34.420 Correct.

00:22:34.840 But I'm saying laws need to change.

00:22:37.880 Personally, if it was Pearl's World...

00:22:39.920 Yes.

00:22:40.440 And I think you're probably going to have to find somewhere that meets in the middle for

00:22:43.640 something to pass.

00:22:45.160 But if it was Pearl's World, I wouldn't have alimony.

00:22:47.620 I wouldn't have child support.

00:22:48.600 I don't think you're entitled to it.

00:22:50.100 Yeah, I would certainly eliminate no-fault divorce.

00:22:53.400 And I would greatly restrict divorce badly.

00:22:57.380 Yeah, but I think until you do that, you're going to have a hard time getting men to sign

00:23:02.640 up until women get in shape.

00:23:05.120 If 70% of women are overweight, that's not a great sell to men.

00:23:08.720 You know, 80% of women gain 20 pounds in the first five years of marriage.

00:23:14.020 Sure.

00:23:14.520 Yeah, that's no good.

00:23:15.220 They should stay fit.

00:23:15.760 You should stay fit, right?

00:23:16.700 Well, no, they should gain a lot of weight to have children.

00:23:19.260 They should gain so much weight because they're having children.

00:23:20.900 But this is my point.

00:23:22.120 You know, you're not going to appeal to men by shaming them into marriage.

00:23:25.280 I'm not shaming anyone.

00:23:26.120 I'm just recommending...

00:23:27.120 But I've heard you guys say things like you're not like a real man if you don't get married.

00:23:31.120 I've heard this from the tradcoms can.

00:23:34.160 That's not exactly true because some men are called to religious life.

00:23:36.520 Some men are called to celibacy.

00:23:37.460 But the ones who are not are called to marriage.

00:23:40.440 Not merely because it's sort of fun, though it's fun, but because it's a natural institution.

00:23:46.560 Because men have certain ends.

00:23:48.860 We have certain goals, right?

00:23:50.640 So one of them would be we want to have children.

00:23:53.540 This is not just a preference, you know,

00:23:55.700 this is an aspect of the natural law.

00:23:59.260 But don't you think they should follow their purpose and God first?

00:24:02.900 That is part of their purpose.

00:24:03.780 Okay.

00:24:04.060 No, I don't think so.

00:24:07.540 I don't think men's purpose is women.

00:24:10.060 I think men's purpose is...

00:24:11.220 Having children's purpose.

00:24:12.100 Well, why?

00:24:13.640 Why is that their purpose?

00:24:14.840 Even the Apostle Paul said it's better to be alone or not the Apostle Paul.

00:24:19.380 But it's even in...

00:24:20.220 The Apostle Paul was celibate, yeah.

00:24:21.240 But...

00:24:21.720 But, well, to mention...

00:24:23.480 Sorry, I'm going to...

00:24:23.840 No, no, the Apostle Paul is celibate.

00:24:25.000 But, you know, but since you mentioned Christianity, it's important to remember our Lord is the bridegroom.

00:24:32.900 The church is the bride.

00:24:34.100 So from the Christian perspective, marriage is understood to be a symbol of Christ's love for his church.

00:24:39.900 Now, that's the supernatural perspective.

00:24:41.520 But that's not how it's practiced today.

00:24:43.200 And that's the point.

00:24:43.820 In some quarters it is.

00:24:44.540 But you can say my special religion, here's the exception.

00:24:47.680 It's not across the board.

00:24:48.200 No, my true religion that built our entire civilization.

00:24:51.100 That's what I'm talking about.

00:24:51.540 I'm a Catholic, too.

00:24:53.300 I'm a Catholic, too.

00:24:54.640 Well, I'm just describing to you the Catholic view of marriage, which is different than the view you're approaching.

00:24:58.420 But it's not the way that Catholics are doing it if we have 25% getting divorced.

00:25:04.880 That's not a small number.

00:25:05.800 It's not the way that 25% are doing it.

00:25:07.640 It's really 35%.

00:25:09.180 But I try to be conservative because I don't want to go back and forth.

00:25:13.400 But to that point, Pearl, you know, Joe Biden calls himself a practicing Catholic.

00:25:18.340 He supports killing infants in the womb up until the moment of birth.

00:25:21.400 It's a matter of law.

00:25:22.640 So, you know.

00:25:23.300 But we get into a tricky territory when you get to play God and decide who's a Catholic and who's a God.

00:25:27.540 I'm not playing God and I don't decide the magisterium.

00:25:29.460 Okay, okay.

00:25:30.220 But the deposit of faith does.

00:25:32.380 The magisterium does.

00:25:33.460 Sacred Scripture does.

00:25:34.560 The vicar of Christ does.

00:25:35.920 And on this point, all are clear.

00:25:37.960 And by the way, I'm not even talking about marriage necessarily from a supernatural perspective,

00:25:42.580 though I certainly view it that way.

00:25:43.640 But there's also the natural perspective, which is that there is, you say men should follow their purpose and should follow God.

00:25:50.260 I, of course, agree.

00:25:51.740 So, how do we know our purpose?

00:25:55.920 Men have what?

00:25:56.900 We have the Scriptures.

00:25:57.820 We have Revelation.

00:25:58.520 But we also have our conscience and reason.

00:26:00.740 And so there's something called the natural law.

00:26:02.560 And the natural law inclines us toward marriage.

00:26:06.740 Men and women are, by our very nature, inclined toward marriage.

00:26:12.160 You would disagree?

00:26:13.380 No.

00:26:14.040 You wouldn't disagree?

00:26:14.500 Well.

00:26:14.800 So, there you go.

00:26:15.560 No, no, no.

00:26:16.000 Well, sort of, sort of.

00:26:17.200 I think men, I think that in the current market, there are just not enough wives to go around.

00:26:25.180 There are not enough wives to go, women that deserve to be wives, in my opinion.

00:26:31.700 Sure.

00:26:31.860 You would agree on that, right?

00:26:33.660 Well, I don't know.

00:26:34.040 Like, so, for example.

00:26:35.060 I don't know exactly what you mean by that.

00:26:36.400 Maybe I would agree.

00:26:37.300 But I don't know exactly what you mean by it.

00:26:39.240 Okay.

00:26:39.920 Do you think men should have standards?

00:26:41.940 Yes.

00:26:42.220 Do you think it's okay for them to want a woman that's in shape?

00:26:46.160 Do you think that's an okay standard?

00:26:47.240 Yeah, that's good.

00:26:47.800 Okay.

00:26:48.100 A girl that's religious.

00:26:49.780 Would you say that's good?

00:26:51.240 But that's not the majority.

00:26:53.600 That's not the majority.

00:26:54.760 So, what are men supposed to do in the meantime?

00:26:56.860 They're supposed to convince the women to get in shape and get religious.

00:26:59.040 Good luck.

00:26:59.660 I've done it for a year.

00:27:01.240 Good luck.

00:27:02.860 You haven't had, maybe the men would be more persuasive than you would to this woman.

00:27:06.520 Good luck.

00:27:07.400 I don't know.

00:27:08.600 Did the OnlyFans models quit that you interviewed?

00:27:12.320 I don't know if that, you know, I've only interviewed a few on whatever.

00:27:14.980 No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, that's the point.

00:27:16.700 There's actually, there.

00:27:17.540 I mean, miracles happen, but I wouldn't bet on it.

00:27:19.580 There are a couple of gals who have written into my show, not from the Whatever podcast,

00:27:22.920 but who were watching my show and, you know, really watching in the member block and everything,

00:27:27.300 who were both like online pornographers to some degree.

00:27:31.520 And one said she was going to quit.

00:27:34.280 I kind of lost track of her in the show.

00:27:35.620 Another one quit, had a major conversion.

00:27:38.800 And, you know, what a wonderful evidence of the glory of God.

00:27:41.880 Was it the one on Twitter?

00:27:43.060 Yes.

00:27:43.700 Yeah, her OF link was still up.

00:27:45.440 So a lot of times...

00:27:46.420 She denied it.

00:27:47.060 Someone said that that was true.

00:27:48.480 Her OF link was still up.

00:27:50.060 Yes, it was.

00:27:50.540 I checked it.

00:27:51.040 I didn't see it.

00:27:51.260 Yes, it was.

00:27:52.340 I'm positive.

00:27:53.220 She posted it and showed that it wasn't still up.

00:27:55.600 It was still up.

00:27:57.360 I don't know.

00:27:57.740 She seemed pretty sincere to me.

00:27:59.280 But in any case, are you denying the principle that people can change?

00:28:02.860 Yeah, I mean, God can forgive you, but men don't have to.

00:28:05.760 I'm not talking about forgiveness.

00:28:06.920 I'm not talking about it.

00:28:07.320 I'm talking about repentance.

00:28:09.080 Repentance is good, but I wouldn't say that makes her wife worthy if you still used to have

00:28:12.680 an OF account.

00:28:13.460 Now, you would agree that men in general should not date women that had OnlyFans accounts.

00:28:20.620 It's not ideal.

00:28:21.780 I don't think it's disqualifying.

00:28:22.760 You can't definitively say that a woman...

00:28:26.600 I don't think it's disqualifying.

00:28:28.080 Well, I think you're going to have a tough time selling guys on that.

00:28:31.680 I'm not convinced of it.

00:28:32.620 I mean, you know, to quote St. John Bianni, the Saints didn't all start well, but they

00:28:35.800 all ended well.

00:28:36.660 So I wouldn't recommend that people get involved in porn in any way.

00:28:40.600 But there's also, you know, on the men's side of things.

00:28:42.860 Men are in a little rough shape because of our modern culture, too.

00:28:45.960 A lot are addicted to porn.

00:28:47.240 A lot have hooked up with a lot of people.

00:28:49.400 A lot of kind of indulged perversions and things like that.

00:28:52.740 It doesn't make them particularly marriageable either.

00:28:54.920 But why is it whenever we say something about the women, we have to say, but men?

00:28:59.480 Well, because it's an observable fact.

00:29:01.900 And marriage involves men and women.

00:29:03.380 I know, but all I'm saying, you know, Michael, all I'm saying is don't date.

00:29:08.420 Like, it's just crazy sometimes.

00:29:09.760 I just, I get so curious because I say, men shouldn't date women that used to have OnlyFans.

00:29:16.660 Like, that shouldn't even be an argument.

00:29:18.700 Yeah, I don't know.

00:29:19.900 I don't know.

00:29:20.760 I mean, again, it's not ideal to have...

00:29:22.180 You wouldn't date a woman with an OnlyFans.

00:29:23.720 I wouldn't date any woman now because I'm happily married.

00:29:25.600 No, but if you were single, right?

00:29:27.600 You wouldn't do that.

00:29:28.380 It would be an obstacle.

00:29:31.360 It would be such a big obstacle you wouldn't do it.

00:29:33.960 But that's the problem.

00:29:35.200 Like, I interview guys that are dating a girl for six months, they find out she used to have an OnlyFans account.

00:29:40.380 These are real things that happen.

00:29:42.140 Sure.

00:29:42.500 Yeah, look, it's not ideal.

00:29:43.800 Though, frankly, again, to your point, I've been out of dating for a long time.

00:29:48.260 But these days, can one find a girlfriend?

00:29:53.760 I mean, I assume it can happen.

00:29:54.860 But in modern, kind of liberal, secular dating, can one find a girlfriend who's never texted a naked picture of herself?

00:30:01.800 I don't know.

00:30:02.520 Don't...

00:30:02.840 Like, women do this all the time now.

00:30:04.200 And then it becomes a big scandal when they get...

00:30:05.900 Yeah, and so do those women deserve to be wives?

00:30:09.140 I don't know that we deserve much of anything.

00:30:11.720 But that's my point.

00:30:12.620 But ought we to do it?

00:30:13.460 That's my point, is the women of today are not the women of yesterday.

00:30:16.960 And it's becoming more and more difficult to find the women that you're talking about.

00:30:20.600 And there are not enough to go around.

00:30:22.220 But you're framing...

00:30:22.900 That's my point.

00:30:23.440 Sure, but you're framing this as a question of who deserves to be married.

00:30:28.460 But my framing of it is what one ought to do.

00:30:32.100 That marriage is a natural end of our nature.

00:30:35.980 I don't deal in oughts.

00:30:37.440 I deal with what is.

00:30:39.620 Not what I want the world to be.

00:30:42.720 But the is of our nature implies an ought in our actions.

00:30:45.360 But it's not about what we want it to be, Michael.

00:30:48.080 It's about what the world is now.

00:30:49.240 No, I'm just saying how people ought to behave.

00:30:51.600 And they ought to get married, is what I'm saying.

00:30:53.260 Okay, well, I...

00:30:54.440 Which is implied by our nature, which is the is.

00:30:56.300 Okay.

00:30:57.500 Right?

00:30:58.120 Because at the very least, Pearl, you would say, people want to have kids, right?

00:31:04.560 I mean, if women wanted to have kids so bad, why are they killing them like crazy?

00:31:08.600 You know?

00:31:08.940 Yeah, there's a lot of abortion.

00:31:10.000 It's dreadful.

00:31:10.780 But I'm just saying people in general, you would admit, want to have kids.

00:31:13.380 Sometimes.

00:31:18.240 Sometimes they do and they don't.

00:31:19.680 I mean, women aren't having kids like they used to.

00:31:22.040 I talk to women all the time that say they don't want to have kids.

00:31:24.920 People, yeah.

00:31:25.560 They say it.

00:31:25.960 It's unfortunate.

00:31:26.340 People say a lot of this.

00:31:27.460 And that's where it's going.

00:31:28.600 But I guess...

00:31:29.040 But half of women are going to be single and childless by 2030.

00:31:32.740 That's the way the world's going.

00:31:34.300 The men you're talking about, the men want to have kids, right?

00:31:36.920 Or no, they're also degenerates.

00:31:38.780 Everyone's just a degenerate now?

00:31:41.340 Men want marriage relationships and families.

00:31:45.300 Men want that in general.

00:31:46.860 Okay.

00:31:47.260 But there are obstacles now that make it increasingly difficult for men to do that.

00:31:53.300 Because the girls have naked pictures on the internet or something?

00:31:56.540 Yeah.

00:31:57.260 Yeah.

00:31:57.520 It's really common.

00:31:58.340 So you would sacrifice having children?

00:32:00.820 One is that the women are increasingly lower quality.

00:32:05.680 They've gained weight.

00:32:06.300 The body count numbers are up.

00:32:09.040 Buy them a Stairmaster.

00:32:10.200 I don't know.

00:32:10.880 Like, get them a gym.

00:32:11.500 Oh, good luck.

00:32:12.220 You know, I tried to pay a girl to lose weight.

00:32:13.840 I swear to God, I did.

00:32:14.800 Because she came on my show.

00:32:15.920 No, I swear.

00:32:17.240 And I said, I said, because she was really fat, and I told her to.

00:32:20.240 And I was like, I'll pay for your training.

00:32:21.840 And I said, I'll give you a cash prize.

00:32:23.500 I said, I'll give you $3,000 if you lose weight.

00:32:26.200 That's a ton of money.

00:32:27.280 Yeah.

00:32:27.600 She couldn't do it.

00:32:28.100 She couldn't stick to it for a month.

00:32:29.340 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:32:29.800 Do I get the offer?

00:32:30.720 Well, you look like you're in shape.

00:32:32.640 Stop it.

00:32:33.140 Come on.

00:32:33.380 You know, but that's my point.

00:32:35.640 You know, one obstacle is that the women are lower quality, okay?

00:32:40.100 The benefits are not the same.

00:32:41.740 Most women are not raised to be traditional wives and mothers.

00:32:44.740 And the cost is getting higher.

00:32:46.780 You know, it's becoming, divorces are getting more expensive.

00:32:49.760 Weddings are getting more expensive.

00:32:51.560 So when you combine those, yeah.

00:32:52.780 They don't need to be, but they are often.

00:32:54.480 I agree, but it's not about what I want the world to be.

00:32:58.400 I'm Catholic too, and I think there's awesome things about the Catholic Church.

00:33:03.500 That's a big but.

00:33:04.780 It's never good to say I'm a part of this religion, but.

00:33:07.000 No, but it doesn't mean everyone's following it.

00:33:09.920 It doesn't mean that's the norm.

00:33:11.340 And I'm talking about what the world is, not what I want it to be.

00:33:15.380 But it's not just what you want it to be.

00:33:17.160 I'm saying, like, if I'm a young man, and I'm acknowledging a lot of the things you're saying,

00:33:22.180 that's tough dating out there.

00:33:23.720 But look, I want to have kids.

00:33:26.780 I want to have a family.

00:33:28.040 Are you, I know you say you don't want to give the man advice.

00:33:31.720 No, I say, I say every man, you have to decide for yourself.

00:33:34.780 But let's say the man came to you and said, Pearl, I know what you, but I don't care what

00:33:38.140 you want, I demand.

00:33:39.440 Why do I give you these hypothetical situations?

00:33:42.100 Well, we're just discussing a concept in the abstract.

00:33:45.000 And so, and I think you're kind of sneaking around giving advice.

00:33:48.480 Because I think you're saying, look, through my reason, I've arrived at this conclusion about

00:33:51.900 what's rational and advisable, but I'm not giving advice.

00:33:54.140 So let's get through all that.

00:33:55.560 Let's say the man comes to you and says, Pearl, give me the advice.

00:33:58.560 Should I give you the advice?

00:33:58.940 Are we reporters or preachers?

00:34:01.660 I'm just a writer and a talker.

00:34:03.580 But that's my point.

00:34:06.060 Is I'm, you're, okay, I'll give you an example.

00:34:08.940 I'll give you an example.

00:34:09.980 Your options are going to be completely different than another guy's options.

00:34:13.480 Why?

00:34:13.860 Every, because.

00:34:15.580 Because I'm devilishly handsome.

00:34:16.940 Yeah, yeah, yeah, devilishly handsome, you know.

00:34:20.220 That's not the case for every, every man has to decide for himself.

00:34:24.820 Okay, do you think men should be extremely cautious when getting married?

00:34:28.820 I think they ought to be extremely prudent when getting married.

00:34:31.900 Not cautious.

00:34:32.840 I think courage is a, you know, a virtue and the prerequisite for all the other virtues.

00:34:37.200 So I don't think men should be little wallflowers backing away from a challenge.

00:34:40.480 But they ought to be prudent.

00:34:41.560 They ought to use their judgment properly.

00:34:43.520 And so there are ways to mitigate risks within marriage.

00:34:45.600 But furthermore, they, they ought to get married because that is the, the way to achieve the

00:34:52.340 very thing you're suggesting they ought to, which is their purpose.

00:34:53.940 What if no women want to get married?

00:34:55.900 Well, they do want to get married.

00:34:56.940 No, they don't.

00:34:57.660 I mean.

00:34:58.380 Because women, when women have the most choice, we don't choose marriage.

00:35:01.900 Women have the most choice when it comes to commitment around the age of 22.

00:35:05.760 They're not choosing to get married.

00:35:07.680 I don't pay attention to what people say.

00:35:09.840 No, no.

00:35:10.140 You mean when they, when they have the most options, when they're the most marriageable.

00:35:14.300 But they do.

00:35:15.060 But you will acknowledge those women who have been duped by feminism, maybe even after they're

00:35:20.280 past their prime marriageable age.

00:35:22.040 No, I don't, I don't blame it on feminism.

00:35:24.500 I look at it different.

00:35:25.380 I know women that have been raised in this culture that chose to get married at 22, like

00:35:30.580 waited till me, like did, I know women that did the whole, like exactly what you're describing.

00:35:35.240 So it was based on the choice.

00:35:37.500 Every woman has choice.

00:35:39.600 Every woman has agency.

00:35:41.200 And they got married.

00:35:41.620 Yes, but there's also women that chose to go on OnlyFans.

00:35:45.660 Oh, yeah.

00:35:45.920 That's why I'm saying, you can't blame your, you can't blame your, but I'm saying like,

00:35:50.120 I don't like blaming your decisions on society because at the end of the day, you are responsible

00:35:55.740 for the decisions that you make.

00:35:57.220 Right, but, but your education is responsible for forming the way that you think about things,

00:36:01.440 including marriage.

00:36:01.640 No, but there's people in the same education and they make different decisions.

00:36:04.660 When I say, I mean education in the broad sense, meaning how people are raised, which

00:36:07.640 gets to the point of marriage.

00:36:09.120 Like.

00:36:09.140 But I know, I know there's people that, that are raised in bad environments and choose

00:36:13.380 not to do that.

00:36:14.360 Everyone has free, you, you, everyone's got free will, Michael.

00:36:17.000 Sure, but we're also shaped by our social context and our educations.

00:36:20.040 Right, but aren't you, you're responsible for the choices you make, right?

00:36:23.120 I am, I'm a moral agent.

00:36:24.740 You are, I am, okay.

00:36:25.660 But, but I'm, I'm more morally free to act the more that I can discipline my lower passions

00:36:32.080 and bring them into accord with my rational will, which is why I'm discussing marriage as

00:36:35.660 a matter of reason.

00:36:36.720 So, I guess the question you'd have to ask is, even before we can say whether or not

00:36:41.760 you want to give advice to men, but, you know, should they or shouldn't they, what is marriage

00:36:45.860 for?

00:36:46.560 Like, what's the point of it?

00:36:48.980 So, what's the point of marriage?

00:36:49.980 I, I think that the point of marriage is, I mean, it's to create a union.

00:37:00.460 It's supposed to, you know, it's supposed to be, you are submitting to your husband's

00:37:05.660 authority and you're creating a family.

00:37:07.460 And creating a family.

00:37:08.420 Yeah.

00:37:08.780 Yes.

00:37:09.020 Creating a family, yes.

00:37:09.220 So, it's forming a union with certain roles and, you know, a structure and to create a family.

00:37:15.580 And do you, do you think that's how it's being used today for the average person?

00:37:20.320 For the average person?

00:37:21.620 Yeah.

00:37:21.780 It forms a union.

00:37:22.700 It creates a family.

00:37:23.420 The average marriage is seven years.

00:37:25.360 Yeah, but it's a union.

00:37:26.540 I mean, I think there's more than marriage than you described, but I think that those are

00:37:30.220 some basics.

00:37:30.660 The average marriage is seven years.

00:37:32.440 Right.

00:37:32.680 But they still, that still forms a union and creates a, often creates a family.

00:37:35.740 That's why you're talking about the struggles.

00:37:36.840 Right.

00:37:37.060 But it's supposed to be for life.

00:37:38.720 I agree with that.

00:37:39.000 Not for now.

00:37:40.000 I agree.

00:37:40.600 And that's what I say.

00:37:41.580 It's not about what ought to be.

00:37:43.180 It's about what is today.

00:37:45.260 And right now, a man cannot have children in this country and not be signed up for the

00:37:50.620 state contract.

00:37:51.700 So, I think, but my point is, why can't we change the laws first?

00:37:58.560 Because we live in time and space and you'll die alone without having had kids and without

00:38:02.940 having the boys of a family.

00:38:04.080 Wow, you guys are one of the most, you guys are one of the most influential media networks.

00:38:08.320 We are.

00:38:08.580 We are.

00:38:08.800 And very persuasive.

00:38:10.260 Very powerful.

00:38:10.880 You guys are.

00:38:11.740 And yet, we're not changing the divorce laws.

00:38:13.500 Try as we might.

00:38:14.280 It hasn't happened.

00:38:14.840 No, but you guys barely cover it.

00:38:16.660 I talk about it all the time.

00:38:17.640 What are you talking about?

00:38:18.480 I talk about marriage on my show probably every single day.

00:38:20.780 Right, but when we talk about specifics, like I was, you know, talking about the tender

00:38:25.800 years doctrine.

00:38:26.820 Yeah, yeah.

00:38:27.200 You know, it's like, even in California, if a woman, if a woman, if a, wait, wait, wait.

00:38:32.880 If a woman lies about paternity of, of the child and it's not found out before the age

00:38:37.800 of two, that man's on child support for life, even though that woman committed fraud.

00:38:42.340 And, and these are real things that happen in this country.

00:38:45.700 The man is on, if, if the, if the father doesn't discover that he's not really the father.

00:38:49.480 Yeah.

00:38:50.040 Because he, he's acting basically as like a duped adoptive father or something like that.

00:38:53.820 Yeah, yeah.

00:38:54.440 Again.

00:38:54.840 Because the way, the way the laws are is it goes in best interest of the father, to the

00:38:59.020 child, which generally means the best interest of the mother.

00:39:02.400 Right, but you don't, Pearl, you do not need to convince me that the divorce laws are dreadful.

00:39:06.540 Right.

00:39:06.800 What you do need to convince me of is that men ought not to be married until the laws

00:39:12.600 are changed.

00:39:14.360 What, why do men have to sacrifice their security for women's security?

00:39:19.200 Women have, women have made the choice to leave marriages.

00:39:22.400 Women have made the choice to collect alimony and child support.

00:39:26.040 Why do men need to sacrifice their security for women's?

00:39:29.900 Because it is good for men to be married and to have children.

00:39:34.560 That's, it's not that they're, they're forced or coerced to, it's good for them.

00:39:38.160 But then why is the reputation of marriage so bad?

00:39:40.860 If this was a great product of people.

00:39:42.140 Yeah, I don't think it's so bad.

00:39:43.040 If this was a great, well, great, because, no, no, that's not true.

00:39:47.580 Because you're out of touch.

00:39:48.900 Why do we have phrases like happy wife, happy life?

00:39:51.860 Why do we have phrases like it's cheaper to keep her?

00:39:54.460 Why are those, like, we don't, these don't just, these aren't made up, Michael.

00:39:57.820 Right, they're kind of funny little jokes about, you know, marriage, which is the enduring

00:40:01.380 institution, the popularity of which is attested to by its permanence throughout human life.

00:40:05.040 But why do they ring true?

00:40:05.680 Why do they ring true?

00:40:07.140 They don't really ring true to me.

00:40:08.340 Happy wife, happy life.

00:40:09.100 Not to you, but we're not.

00:40:10.140 Happy wife, happy life is a recipe for a terrible marriage.

00:40:13.080 We agree.

00:40:13.740 Yeah, we agree.

00:40:14.560 But it's kind of a joke.

00:40:15.620 I mean, we make little jokes about that.

00:40:16.860 In the Henny Youngman line, take my wife, please.

00:40:19.200 I might use that line, but I don't mean it.

00:40:20.640 But why is that funny?

00:40:20.860 Why is that funny?

00:40:21.880 Because it rings true.

00:40:23.060 Because it's ironic.

00:40:24.200 Quite the opposite, right?

00:40:25.180 No, but.

00:40:25.380 It's funny because it's ironic.

00:40:26.260 No, it's funny because this stuff rings, like, I'm just.

00:40:29.280 Yeah, it's true.

00:40:29.860 You bicker with your spouse sometimes.

00:40:31.220 That's the truthful part.

00:40:32.400 The ironic part is you don't actually want to give your wife away.

00:40:34.860 Take my wife, please.

00:40:36.020 Okay, well.

00:40:37.040 Right.

00:40:37.500 But, okay.

00:40:39.260 It's cheaper to keep her.

00:40:40.360 That's a phrase, right?

00:40:41.400 Yeah, yeah.

00:40:41.700 Why does it exist?

00:40:42.820 It exists because divorce laws are so bad.

00:40:45.960 Okay.

00:40:46.080 And that's what the joke is about.

00:40:46.780 Okay, so again, if the marriage contract is so good, why do you have to convince men

00:40:51.700 to sign up if they're getting such great benefits from marriage?

00:40:55.480 Because we live in a, the reason that we need to convince people to get married is because

00:41:00.560 liberalism has inculcated in people an extreme individualism that, and an extreme subjectivism

00:41:07.880 that disconnects their actions and their interests from reason and objective reality and the common

00:41:13.780 good.

00:41:14.120 That's the actual reason why, and it's not just pertaining to marriage.

00:41:17.080 It pertains to building up wealth.

00:41:20.520 It pertains to duties that are owed to the family, to the community, and to God.

00:41:24.420 It pertains to all aspects of public life.

00:41:26.640 It's not just marriage, but because marriage is the fundamental political building block,

00:41:29.700 you see it expressed there.

00:41:30.880 I don't, I'm not against marriage, but I, again, I think that you're going, men, regardless

00:41:39.700 of what I say, because I'm, I'm not going to convince the entire country to get married,

00:41:44.880 like no matter what I say.

00:41:46.260 You don't seem interested in doing so.

00:41:48.700 Because I don't, I don't talk about what I want the world to be.

00:41:53.420 You talk about how dreadful marriage is.

00:41:55.300 I don't talk about, no, there's, there's good marriages, Michael.

00:41:58.640 But, but marriage as we do it today is not marriage anymore.

00:42:02.640 And I cannot, I cannot, I cannot fault men for being cautious.

00:42:07.280 And some men just aren't going to get married because the laws are too favorable to women.

00:42:12.520 And I, I think that, you know, okay, I'm going to tell a story.

00:42:15.820 I want you to not interrupt.

00:42:16.880 Okay.

00:42:17.320 Can you please not?

00:42:18.280 Anytime.

00:42:18.820 I would never interrupt a lady.

00:42:20.220 Okay.

00:42:20.660 So I do interviews of men that have been divorced often.

00:42:25.280 Okay.

00:42:25.940 And there is a guy interviewed and he married a Christian woman.

00:42:30.300 Okay.

00:42:30.900 Good, good Christian woman.

00:42:32.600 No kids, not overweight.

00:42:34.280 No, no, no.

00:42:35.500 Checks all the boxes.

00:42:36.460 No, no glaring red flags.

00:42:38.220 Okay.

00:42:38.960 They have two children together.

00:42:40.460 And what happened was one day he comes home and when he comes home from work, the wife

00:42:45.720 has filed a temporary restraining order on him.

00:42:48.580 Women can get these just like that.

00:42:51.080 He's kicked out of his house.

00:42:52.820 No trial, no evidence, no nothing.

00:42:55.540 Okay.

00:42:56.360 Now he has to wait.

00:42:57.820 It's during COVID.

00:42:58.440 So he has to wait a year, year and a half to even get to see his children.

00:43:02.740 Okay.

00:43:02.980 And even fight for them.

00:43:04.760 And by the time he gets to court, the mom's been in the kid's ear saying how terrible of

00:43:09.400 a person he is.

00:43:10.920 Okay.

00:43:11.460 Now they go to court and they say to him, well, you haven't been in the kid's life for

00:43:15.560 a year, year and a half, even though she lied about the abuse and they figured that

00:43:19.380 out in court.

00:43:20.460 This man had, and I saw his court documents, text evidence that this woman was planning

00:43:24.760 to do this to him.

00:43:26.000 In the year, he still had to pay the mortgage on the house.

00:43:28.720 He still had to pay child support in that year, year and a half period.

00:43:32.740 It goes to court.

00:43:34.880 Now he doesn't get access to his children.

00:43:38.600 He hasn't seen his kids in two years.

00:43:43.220 Michael, they live a mile from him.

00:43:45.240 That's awful.

00:43:45.800 A mile from him.

00:43:46.860 He's so stressed out.

00:43:48.000 He loses his job.

00:43:49.820 Can you imagine going through that?

00:43:51.360 And he's an average earner.

00:43:52.820 He's not like, you know, cause I've interviewed men that make, you know, I interviewed a guy

00:43:56.060 from Texas.

00:43:56.700 He spent 1.5 million on a divorce.

00:43:58.780 He got his kids every other weekend.

00:44:00.400 And these are real things.

00:44:03.200 And Michael, the saddest, wait, wait.

00:44:04.500 The saddest thing that you see is a man, I've interviewed so many men that I would not be

00:44:09.940 surprised if they committed suicide in the next year because the woman has completely

00:44:15.460 ruined their reputation.

00:44:16.600 She's called him an abuser.

00:44:18.220 All of this stuff.

00:44:19.280 So his friends, it's completely different with his friends.

00:44:23.120 His kids think he's the bad guy.

00:44:24.660 He, he's out of money and he has to start over at 40, 45, 50 years old and men are nine

00:44:32.000 times more likely.

00:44:32.880 What do you mean start over?

00:44:34.620 Start over as in money, money, like he has to start his life over.

00:44:40.020 They're wrecked.

00:44:41.200 They're wrecked in these.

00:44:42.400 And the problem is in family court, it's not based on evidence.

00:44:45.900 It is not.

00:44:46.560 It is based on a balance of probabilities, meaning it is more likely that he did it than he didn't.

00:44:51.240 And women are not punished for falsely accusing men of abuse because they've changed the definition

00:44:56.040 of abuse.

00:44:57.300 And these are, even if it's, even if it's 5% of men that this happens to, let's say out

00:45:02.100 of a hundred, this happens to 5%, even, even in the Christian churches, you know, I would

00:45:07.020 never, if I got on a plane and there was, I'm going to, I'm going to, and I, there was

00:45:10.380 a 20% chance of I get to paradise and there's a 5% chance of it crashing.

00:45:16.840 I'm not getting on.

00:45:18.120 And this is, and you have to understand this is a death to a lot of men.

00:45:21.240 The idea that they're, they, they can't see their kids that are a mile from them.

00:45:26.200 They're sending them money.

00:45:27.600 And, and Glenn, you know, I've got a guy brought, he's one of the guys that that happened to.

00:45:30.600 Yeah.

00:45:30.960 And, and, you know, he didn't, it's like a lot of these guys did everything that you

00:45:37.000 guys say.

00:45:37.860 And when you guys say, get married young, a lot of these men don't know what they're

00:45:41.160 signing up for.

00:45:42.060 And you're not going to be there when their entire life falls apart.

00:45:45.440 I interviewed them on the other side.

00:45:47.220 And that's why when you just say, you know, just find a good Christian girl and get married.

00:45:51.840 That's not exactly what I've, I've, I've, I'm, I'm paraphrasing.

00:45:54.780 But it's an important distinction.

00:45:55.960 But when you say, which is the minority, that's not the majority of women.

00:46:01.580 We know that's not the majority of women that are praying every day.

00:46:04.860 They're going to Latin mass.

00:46:06.160 You know, I, I'm Catholic.

00:46:08.360 Most of the women I went to school with are not practicing now.

00:46:11.360 So this is not the majority of women.

00:46:14.560 And, you know, I just don't think, I think sometimes you minimize the risk, you know,

00:46:19.940 out of every a hundred divorces.

00:46:22.080 And I know we were going to go back and forth on the numbers, but just trust me that I'm,

00:46:25.840 I'm not making this up.

00:46:27.560 It's, it's 30% are malicious.

00:46:30.960 And by malicious, malicious.

00:46:32.940 No, no, I don't think, I don't say that.

00:46:34.740 And I'm not, I said, oh, I think, oh, fair, fair.

00:46:38.560 But, but when I say malicious, I mean, alienating the child or the father from the kids, putting

00:46:44.440 them on child support, so that's, that's 30, that's around out of every a hundred divorces

00:46:49.020 around 13.

00:46:50.640 Yeah.

00:46:50.920 So again, I would say that's, that's not, but that's, and that's, that's not an insignificant

00:46:56.060 number.

00:46:56.760 Men, you know, I interviewed a guy, he spent 1.5 million on a divorce.

00:47:01.040 Yeah.

00:47:01.220 He gets to see his kids every other weekend.

00:47:03.040 It's awful.

00:47:03.600 It's awful.

00:47:04.360 And, and that's why, you know, we could go back and forth about, you know, the numbers,

00:47:10.260 but I have just, I've seen so many men on, on the brink of suicide and they didn't do

00:47:14.640 anything wrong.

00:47:15.740 Yeah.

00:47:16.060 Well, I don't know that they didn't do anything wrong, but, but I agree, you know, the situation

00:47:20.100 is just dreadful.

00:47:20.900 We all do terrible things and there, but for the grace of God go all of us because we're

00:47:23.800 all sinners.

00:47:24.720 Uh, and you know, the fact that something went so terribly wrong in their marriage suggests

00:47:30.840 that, well, there's no such thing as no fault divorce.

00:47:33.520 So there was fault somewhere, uh, but, but we agree so broadly that I'm not quite, I'm

00:47:37.980 not exactly sure what we disagree about.

00:47:39.740 We agree that the divorce court system is dreadful.

00:47:41.860 We agree that the divorce laws are terrible.

00:47:43.620 We agree that modern dating is challenging, but, but I guess.

00:47:47.540 So what I would say to switch things, I think men shouldn't vote for either party because

00:47:53.120 neither party is taking their issue seriously.

00:47:55.920 I mean, where is, where is, where is the mandatory DNA testing?

00:47:59.920 You know, I mean, people differentiate on these people that, well, around 5% of men up

00:48:05.920 to 30, I mean, it's disputed.

00:48:07.880 I don't want to go back and forth all day, but a significant number of men are raising

00:48:11.320 children that are not theirs.

00:48:13.180 You know, I, I, I.

00:48:13.840 The line of, there's a line in, I think it's the Odyssey of, uh, where the son of Odysseus

00:48:18.500 says, uh, it's a wise man who knows his own father.

00:48:22.140 It's true.

00:48:22.660 It's been true for a long time.

00:48:23.900 Okay.

00:48:24.080 Well, I, I don't know what that has to, you know.

00:48:28.200 Well, you, you raised the question of paternity and I'm saying this has been a longstanding

00:48:32.580 trope in the Western tradition.

00:48:33.680 Go back to the earliest.

00:48:34.340 But my, my point is they're not taking men's issues seriously.

00:48:38.340 I don't think either party is.

00:48:39.960 So I think really, if it was up to me, I would say men don't vote until one of the parties

00:48:43.980 starts taking you seriously.

00:48:45.460 I think, I think the left should try to buy them and not, not buy them.

00:48:48.560 But like, you know, if Biden came out tomorrow and said, Hey, we're going to make divorce

00:48:52.040 and family court more fair.

00:48:53.880 We're, we're going to, you know, we're going to do mandatory DNA.

00:48:57.680 You might disagree with that.

00:48:58.840 I wouldn't like that.

00:48:59.800 Okay.

00:49:00.180 Well, I find that to be quite disrespectful to the institution of marriage.

00:49:02.900 Well, I think it's more disrespectful that, that women are lying to men about paternity

00:49:09.780 and that, that's a real problem.

00:49:11.660 Sure.

00:49:12.120 So.

00:49:12.700 Yeah.

00:49:12.920 Yeah.

00:49:13.420 Deceitful women.

00:49:14.200 That's a problem.

00:49:14.880 That's right.

00:49:15.300 History.

00:49:15.760 Right.

00:49:16.200 And even if it's 2%, 1%, that's one out of every a hundred guys.

00:49:20.860 That, that's a real issue.

00:49:22.740 And there's no, there's no penalty for women doing it, even though it's fraud.

00:49:27.500 Sure.

00:49:27.900 And so until, until the right and the left start taking men seriously when it comes to

00:49:32.980 their, you know, their issues, I, I don't, I think men should bow out, but you know, this

00:49:39.040 is Pearl's world.

00:49:40.200 But in Pearl's world.

00:49:42.220 Yeah.

00:49:42.880 Again, but so it's confusing because you say, I don't ever tell men what I think they ought

00:49:47.180 to do, but you just said, I think men should bow out.

00:49:48.320 Well, I think that would be a strategy.

00:49:49.820 Sorry.

00:49:50.320 Right.

00:49:50.520 But you, but you, you say the same kind of thing when you say, I think men ought to wait

00:49:53.720 until the laws change before they get married.

00:49:56.020 No, no.

00:49:56.640 I, I, every man has to decide for himself.

00:49:59.140 You just told men what to do when it comes to voting.

00:50:01.580 Every man has to decide for himself what he does in his personal life.

00:50:06.180 I think a good strategy, I think a good strategy could be that men walk away until they, the

00:50:15.280 laws change.

00:50:16.280 I think it's like, I think that's a good strategy.

00:50:18.980 There are other ones, maybe you could come up with some.

00:50:21.940 You guys are one of the largest, you know, political media organizations, but, but I think

00:50:26.740 a better strategy for you guys would be to maybe start catering, you know, to start, because

00:50:32.460 I don't really think banning no-fault divorce would really change much.

00:50:36.020 People, the culture is what it is.

00:50:37.400 It would change a ton.

00:50:37.720 You know, when, when they introduced no-fault divorce in 1969, I think it was in Canada,

00:50:42.940 the divorce rates shot up 500% within two years.

00:50:47.180 Ending no-fault divorce, first of all, no-fault divorce wasn't even recognized in liberal

00:50:51.660 New York until 2010.

00:50:53.400 That change alone, it wouldn't solve the problem, but it would go a long way towards the problem.

00:50:56.500 Yeah, but that generation, a lot of them were separated anyways.

00:51:00.400 Separation is one thing.

00:51:01.460 Divorce is quite another.

00:51:02.560 Look, I would be for it.

00:51:05.140 I would be for it.

00:51:06.140 I just don't see that getting passed anytime soon.

00:51:09.580 Right.

00:51:09.860 I don't see any of these laws getting passed.

00:51:11.020 That's why I'm telling men don't put off your life and put off having a family until the

00:51:14.120 laws get passed.

00:51:14.680 Well, I think we would have a lot better chance of getting them passed if that was the number

00:51:20.020 one issue you guys were talking about.

00:51:21.920 If that was the number one issue.

00:51:23.440 It is, it is, it is, I'm, I don't think I'm exaggerating.

00:51:26.480 Okay.

00:51:26.700 It might be the number one issue I've talked about.

00:51:28.320 I mean, I just, I was just at CPAC and I got in all sorts of trouble for saying that

00:51:31.400 the way that people describe marriage these days is wrong and marriage is a lifelong union

00:51:35.180 between a man and a woman for the good of...

00:51:36.840 Right, but you would agree it's not how it's practiced today.

00:51:38.860 It is how it's practiced by the people who have reasonable marriages.

00:51:42.000 I agree it's not how it's practiced today.

00:51:44.220 Not in the special religion, but by and large.

00:51:47.320 Again, when you say special religion, it seems to me you're trying to marginalize the Catholic

00:51:52.060 faith or other faiths.

00:51:53.140 I'm Catholic.

00:51:54.000 I suppose, but I think you're marginalizing it anyway.

00:51:56.260 But, but religion is just a habit of virtue that inclines the will to give to God what

00:51:59.960 he deserves, right?

00:52:00.700 So it's just, it's just kind of the way that one acts.

00:52:02.960 Sorry.

00:52:03.500 The reason I say that is because I grew up in the Catholic faith and I don't think that

00:52:09.560 exempts men from the risk of getting married.

00:52:12.380 You know, one girl I interviewed, you know, she was from a Orthodox, no, not Orthodox, sorry,

00:52:16.720 Latin mass, like one of those communities.

00:52:18.820 And she had horrible parental alienation.

00:52:21.900 I mean, her mother, there's a whole book that, it's called How to Destroy a Man.

00:52:26.120 And it lays out the framework exactly for how women can legally destroy a man, take his

00:52:33.140 assets, take his children and ruin his reputation.

00:52:35.240 I wouldn't recommend reading it.

00:52:36.140 This is a step, this is a step, no, I've read it.

00:52:38.260 No, I'm not, not for that.

00:52:39.520 But, but it's like a step-by-step guide.

00:52:42.040 And, and this, this mother did it.

00:52:43.560 And this was in a Latin mass, like Orthodox community.

00:52:47.640 And that's why I say.

00:52:48.840 Again, because of these terms are sort of ambiguous and contradictory even in this case.

00:52:54.660 So I'd, I'd be curious to see the actual case.

00:52:56.680 Well, I, I guess, I guess what I would say is sometimes women have feelings about religion

00:53:01.100 at 22 and at 42, they change.

00:53:04.200 And there's no consequence for women leaving right now.

00:53:07.700 In fact, in fact, correct.

00:53:09.860 But in fact, they're paid to do so.

00:53:12.180 And so I will never shame men for making a decision that's right for them.

00:53:16.540 But you're going further than not shaming them.

00:53:18.600 I think we've gotten to the point where you've said it's at least a good strategy to walk away

00:53:23.760 from the institution of marriage until the laws have changed.

00:53:25.900 You just said that.

00:53:26.480 No, I say, I say, do whatever you want, guys.

00:53:29.540 But, but no, I said, I said, I said, regardless of what I say, men will walk away.

00:53:35.340 So let's establish, let's establish men won't listen to Pearl, as you just said.

00:53:39.440 Let's establish that you think men ought to make their own decisions.

00:53:41.900 Yeah.

00:53:42.280 Long established.

00:53:43.140 You also just said it is a good strategy for men to walk away from the institution of marriage

00:53:48.880 until the laws change.

00:53:49.960 You just said that.

00:53:50.780 No, no, I was talking about the vote.

00:53:52.960 They should walk away from the voting.

00:53:54.760 The ballot box.

00:53:55.420 Yeah, that was the ballot box.

00:53:56.480 Until the, okay.

00:53:57.340 I said, no, I said, that's a strategy that men can do.

00:54:01.620 A good strategy.

00:54:02.080 But, but.

00:54:02.780 Not just a bad strategy.

00:54:04.040 I mean, how else?

00:54:05.260 I mean, what have conservatives succeeded in conserving the last 50 years?

00:54:09.480 Not, not so much as the women's bathroom, I guess.

00:54:11.960 But, but so you're asking them to get on a team that's losing.

00:54:15.340 Right.

00:54:15.580 I mean, that's what Whitaker Chambers said when he left being a communist to become a conservative.

00:54:19.560 Right.

00:54:19.960 He thought he was, he was joining the losing team.

00:54:22.560 Maybe that's the case.

00:54:23.440 I mean, in the long run, we're all dead and the world's going to fall to pot and then the

00:54:26.720 second coming will occur.

00:54:27.660 But that's not an excuse to avoid doing what is just and good and right and in line with

00:54:32.120 our natural desires.

00:54:32.940 But it's not unjust for men to not want to have children and a family.

00:54:36.920 It's disordered.

00:54:37.740 It's disordered for men not to.

00:54:39.260 We have priests.

00:54:40.040 Yeah, yeah.

00:54:41.420 Clerical life.

00:54:42.040 Some are called by the charism of celibacy.

00:54:43.560 But for most men, and by the way, they're called to the charism of celibacy in the priesthood

00:54:48.380 because the priests act in the person of Christ, who is the bridegroom of the church.

00:54:51.720 But for people who are not following a religious vocation, they are called to family life.

00:54:56.060 If there are not enough wives, what are men supposed to do?

00:54:59.160 It's about 50-50 in the population.

00:55:00.980 If there are not enough wives, what are men supposed to do?

00:55:05.260 There is basically parity between men and women.

00:55:07.860 So there are enough wives.

00:55:10.180 Okay.

00:55:10.620 Well, then I'm sure you'll see a spike in the men signing up on marriage.

00:55:14.400 No, I agree that there's a great deal of selfishness and liberalism.

00:55:17.760 But I think that's the view that you are articulating and the view of the red pill people is basically

00:55:22.980 a view that presumes a liberal, secular, individualist anthropology that is contrary

00:55:29.320 to natural reason and the flourishing of men.

00:55:31.760 No, I would disagree with that.

00:55:33.960 How am I wrong?

00:55:34.760 You're saying men ought to just pursue their own interests regardless of, say,

00:55:38.120 I think when you have a smoking gun, I mean, that's essentially what it is.

00:55:41.920 Like, you know, I tell you these stories and you just say, sign up anyways.

00:55:46.100 I'm saying be prudent.

00:55:47.220 But I'm saying be prudent in everything in life.

00:55:48.640 You know, you could get in a car and get in a car accident because of the other day,

00:55:52.220 a teenage girl driver, another girl hit me while I was driving.

00:55:55.500 But I'm not saying don't get in a car.

00:55:56.780 I'm saying.

00:55:57.020 Yeah, but if I get into a car and I see 30% of people crashing, I'm not getting into that car,

00:56:02.180 regardless of the 10% of people that succeed.

00:56:04.840 But then even further, to use your airplane analogy, I guess the difference is getting

00:56:08.900 on an airplane and going to Hawaii would be a nice thing to do and I might like to do

00:56:13.540 it sometime.

00:56:15.600 Getting married and having children is not merely a nice thing to do that I might, in

00:56:19.840 my subjective preferences, like to engage in.

00:56:22.860 But it is an aspect of my nature.

00:56:26.340 It is an aspect of my purpose to which I am aimed.

00:56:29.040 Right.

00:56:29.600 That's the difference.

00:56:30.160 That's why I say.

00:56:30.700 Do you think men's masculinity comes from marriage?

00:56:33.840 I think men's masculinity and virility comes from their nature as men.

00:56:37.800 Do you think?

00:56:38.460 But you don't think it comes from marriage?

00:56:40.100 I think that marriage fulfills a man's purpose.

00:56:42.760 And in as much as he is more a man, the more he fulfills his purpose.

00:56:45.780 Do you think marriage is a man's purpose?

00:56:47.780 I think that, well, man's ultimate purpose is to know God and to serve him in this world

00:56:52.760 and enjoy him forever and eternity.

00:56:53.760 But subsidiary aspects of that would be, for lay people, for instance, to get married,

00:57:01.360 which is a symbol of Christ's love for his church, and to, but even, you know, taking

00:57:05.260 religion aside for a second.

00:57:06.260 But I'm asking, like, can I get a yes or no?

00:57:07.500 Do you think it's a man's?

00:57:07.800 Well, I'm trying to explain to you, you know, the answer to the question you're asking.

00:57:11.320 But if you say, what's a man's purpose?

00:57:13.360 And my purpose in this conversation is to talk to you.

00:57:17.020 Okay.

00:57:17.420 That's one purpose.

00:57:18.220 A purpose is also to get to the nature of this question of marriage.

00:57:22.440 Okay.

00:57:22.600 Another purpose is to communicate that to the audience.

00:57:26.420 So there are all sorts of purposes that we have.

00:57:28.460 We have higher purposes and lower purposes.

00:57:30.400 And so when you ask, is marriage part of a man's purpose?

00:57:33.340 I say, it is.

00:57:34.600 It's not man's ultimate purpose.

00:57:36.180 Okay.

00:57:36.400 But it is a symbol of his ultimate purpose, and it is a constituent part of his purpose

00:57:40.160 and a natural end of his very nature.

00:57:43.480 Okay.

00:57:44.100 Yeah.

00:57:44.660 Yeah.

00:57:45.560 But the reason I say that you are adopting what seems to me a liberal and individualist

00:57:50.580 anthropology here is because you are saying, every man needs to make his own decision.

00:57:55.640 Nothing's better or worse.

00:57:56.740 I'm not recommending anything.

00:57:58.060 I'm just, you know, you do you.

00:57:59.200 Do you think every man should make the same decision?

00:58:01.800 In many matters, yes.

00:58:03.340 Not between chocolate and vanilla ice cream, but between moral goods.

00:58:05.740 Do you feel like you should tell men what to do?

00:58:07.740 In as much as I correctly perceive the moral order, yes.

00:58:12.680 Okay.

00:58:13.120 So you think that you know what's right for every man?

00:58:16.280 I think that I can, I have a relatively reliable, if you'd like my answer.

00:58:21.380 I think I have a relatively reliable faculty of reason and moral conscience.

00:58:25.620 And so in as much as it is reliable, I can articulate the truth as I see it, which is

00:58:29.860 all anyone does.

00:58:30.500 It's what you're doing.

00:58:31.220 It's what all people do when we speak.

00:58:33.200 Yeah, I don't think it's really our job as commentators to tell people what to do.

00:58:38.380 But it's our job as human beings to perceive the moral order.

00:58:41.620 Okay.

00:58:42.220 Right?

00:58:42.680 And to form judgments about that.

00:58:44.040 Well, I disagree that, I disagree when you say it's the equivalent of feminism.

00:58:50.220 Because right now, right.

00:58:51.320 It's the equivalent of, what you're articulating is a liberal and individualist view.

00:58:55.400 And therefore, it's similar to feminism.

00:58:57.000 I would say that, right now, marriage is a feminist institution.

00:59:04.520 Not mine.

00:59:05.540 Right?

00:59:07.300 Well, if your wife decides tomorrow she wants to leave you, it will be.

00:59:13.640 The divorce laws are informed by feminism.

00:59:15.960 Correct.

00:59:16.500 Correct.

00:59:17.040 And so, regardless.

00:59:18.740 Marriage is a natural institution that predates the states that correct.

00:59:23.720 Right.

00:59:23.940 But there is no way for you to get married in this country and have children and not be

00:59:29.500 a part of the institution of marriage legally.

00:59:33.600 Yeah, you have to sign up for the marital.

00:59:35.100 Correct.

00:59:35.200 Though you can mitigate risk even by state.

00:59:36.880 So, there's a whole business of lawyers making money off of marriage, of feminist women's

00:59:45.380 shelters making money off of marriage.

00:59:47.880 You know, and you're saying, you know, sign up anyway.

00:59:50.580 And I think, I would disagree that it's feminist because what you're saying is sign up for the

00:59:58.300 institution that is run by feminists.

01:00:00.720 Well, I guess you're putting those words in my mouth, sign up anyway.

01:00:04.000 What I am saying is men ought to do the right thing.

01:00:07.840 That the basis of the natural law is one precept, which is do good and avoid evil.

01:00:14.760 The first thing that we apprehend is being, right?

01:00:18.720 Existence.

01:00:19.300 Existence.

01:00:20.200 The next thing that we apprehend, and this is the first thing we apprehend through our

01:00:23.420 practical reason, you know, which is oriented toward action, is good.

01:00:28.460 When you do something, you want to do good and you want to avoid evil.

01:00:32.060 And so, what I'm saying is that marriage and family, the end of marriage being the begetting

01:00:36.380 and education of children and secondarily, the mutual support of the spouses, is good

01:00:41.400 for man.

01:00:42.240 So, I'm not saying this isn't Michael's crazy view.

01:00:44.340 I'm saying this is a natural part.

01:00:46.440 It's why this has existed throughout all of human society everywhere.

01:00:49.620 And it's why we are all inclined to do it.

01:00:51.580 Whether or not Earl or Michael wants it.

01:00:53.220 Okay.

01:00:53.500 So, do you think it's wrong if a man wants to build a business?

01:00:58.020 It depends what the business is.

01:00:59.200 He doesn't.

01:00:59.520 Okay.

01:00:59.740 Okay.

01:00:59.980 But whatever.

01:01:01.800 And instead of pursuing women, he pursues his business.

01:01:05.180 Instead of pursuing a marriage and a family.

01:01:06.940 I think it would be a mistake for a man to pursue material good to the exclusion of better

01:01:15.080 goods.

01:01:15.500 Okay.

01:01:15.600 What about coaching?

01:01:16.800 What about teaching?

01:01:18.400 Like, why?

01:01:19.260 I think our jobs in the commercial economy are good things.

01:01:22.660 Right.

01:01:22.740 But I think modern liberalism and individual anthropologies make an idol out of that.

01:01:29.200 And that is to the harm of men.

01:01:30.500 We shouldn't make an idol out of our jobs.

01:01:32.160 I like my job a lot, but it's not my whole life.

01:01:33.540 And the other problem you get into is, again, you know, just because a man has kids, it

01:01:38.460 doesn't mean that the kids will, I mean, you have men raising kids that grow up to hate

01:01:43.600 them.

01:01:44.480 I mean, even in the story that I showed you.

01:01:46.400 It's bad.

01:01:46.620 Yeah.

01:01:46.860 It's bad.

01:01:47.940 Within marriage or divorce?

01:01:49.420 Both.

01:01:50.020 Yeah.

01:01:50.160 Both.

01:01:50.580 I've seen, you know, kids get alienated from their fathers.

01:01:54.280 How?

01:01:54.660 That are, you know, in the same household.

01:01:56.740 It happens all the time.

01:01:57.200 How does it happen?

01:01:57.980 I agree it happens.

01:01:58.640 Well, I mean, the man's working.

01:02:00.760 And so the mom spends more time with the kids.

01:02:02.780 The mom's talking all day in the kid's ear.

01:02:05.280 It's a really sad thing.

01:02:05.980 So you're saying the mom hates the dad.

01:02:07.900 Yeah.

01:02:08.220 That seems to be a problem that predates the alienation.

01:02:10.280 No, it totally is.

01:02:11.200 It totally is.

01:02:12.540 And, you know.

01:02:12.900 And the schools and the TV and everyone says the men are dolts and idiots.

01:02:16.180 You know, yeah, I agree.

01:02:16.720 That's terrible.

01:02:17.140 Yeah.

01:02:17.800 Yeah.

01:02:18.100 But that's my point is just because a man has kids, it doesn't mean his legacy will live

01:02:23.920 on.

01:02:25.060 No.

01:02:25.360 Again, I don't think the kids are the chief end of man in the world.

01:02:28.240 But I do think it is an important aspect of it and an expression of it.

01:02:32.560 And you can raise kids who are likely not to hate you.

01:02:36.360 There are things that you can do and things that you can, you know, avoid that will increase

01:02:41.100 that likelihood.

01:02:42.360 I mean, that's true.

01:02:43.680 But there's no guarantees.

01:02:45.260 And I think it's...

01:02:45.740 No guarantees of anything in this life, girl.

01:02:47.380 And I think it's a higher risk.

01:02:50.220 And I think...

01:02:51.420 I would really encourage you to spend a couple days in family court.

01:02:55.260 I think it would really change your point of view.

01:02:57.220 Yeah.

01:02:57.400 I mean, I've had close friends who have been in brutal, brutal divorces.

01:03:01.060 I mean, I've seen a little bit of it up close.

01:03:02.740 It's dreadful.

01:03:03.240 Yeah.

01:03:03.460 And at times, you know, they didn't really do anything wrong.

01:03:08.120 Yeah.

01:03:08.340 Well, they've all done something.

01:03:09.580 Because if women feel like leaving, they can leave.

01:03:13.060 We can leave.

01:03:13.920 They can.

01:03:14.440 But how does the marriage break down?

01:03:15.740 You know, it's like Hemingway describes bankruptcy and the sun also rises.

01:03:20.100 Happens gradually and then suddenly.

01:03:22.780 So it seems to me...

01:03:23.880 I'm not letting women off the hook.

01:03:25.280 Sometimes crazy, you know, feminist ladies go nuts and divorce their husbands and poison,

01:03:29.940 you know, the kids against their father.

01:03:31.060 And they do all sorts of terrible things.

01:03:32.760 But, you know, marriage is a union of two people.

01:03:35.580 And I agree with you.

01:03:37.100 A lot of people, when they get into marriage these days, including the men, especially the

01:03:40.360 men, not only don't know what they're signing up for, they don't even really have

01:03:44.820 a vision of what they're signing up for.

01:03:46.360 They don't even know what they want to be signing up for.

01:03:48.580 And so that's a mistake.

01:03:49.860 That's an error on the part of the men often and of the women.

01:03:52.580 But the men are the head of the household.

01:03:53.960 So more responsibility falls onto them.

01:03:56.920 And then the way they lead their lives.

01:03:59.060 I would say...

01:03:59.500 But do they get authority to?

01:04:01.620 Who do they give authority to?

01:04:02.720 No, do the men have authority in their own households?

01:04:05.480 In the good marriages, they do.

01:04:07.160 Would you say that's the majority?

01:04:09.040 Well, I don't know.

01:04:09.500 I mean, these days people say that two men can be married.

01:04:11.280 So, you know, people are very confused about what marriage is.

01:04:13.860 Correct.

01:04:14.320 Correct.

01:04:14.800 But in the real marriages and the flourishing marriages, yeah, the men do have a headship.

01:04:20.120 What percent of marriages do you think are happy after 50 years?

01:04:23.960 Well, all I have to go by is the general social survey and some of the Chicago studies that

01:04:29.720 come as a result of that.

01:04:31.260 And the evidence is that, again, according to statistics and social science...

01:04:35.800 50% divorce.

01:04:37.240 Yeah, granted anywhere from 40% to 50% divorce.

01:04:39.380 But nevertheless, according to the GSS, which is probably the biggest status that we have

01:04:43.580 on this, the happiest people are men and women married with children.

01:04:49.360 Followed by men and women married without children.

01:04:52.080 Well, I'll come to that.

01:04:53.200 Followed by divorced parents without children, followed by divorced parents with children.

01:05:02.800 And one Chicago study from last year showed the happiness gap between married and unmarried

01:05:07.020 to be 30 points.

01:05:07.940 So you're talking about, again, how do you measure happiness?

01:05:09.940 I think a lot of it's bunk.

01:05:10.940 But as much as you can.

01:05:11.700 And the men that get married tend to be tall.

01:05:14.540 I mean, women select for tall, handsome, successful men.

01:05:17.220 That's how I describe myself.

01:05:19.260 But you see, so you're attributing it to marriage.

01:05:22.360 And I'm saying the men that women pick are happy anyways.

01:05:27.160 You're saying happier people are more inclined to get married?

01:05:30.420 No, no.

01:05:32.260 Well, partially.

01:05:33.580 But no, I'm saying that women pick tall, handsome, successful men.

01:05:37.400 And I would imagine that they would be happier.

01:05:40.280 Because the men are hot and rich.

01:05:42.200 No, not hot.

01:05:43.040 Why are you doing that?

01:05:44.320 That's what you just said.

01:05:45.160 Tall, handsome, successful, happy.

01:05:46.860 I said hot.

01:05:47.360 You said tall.

01:05:48.140 We could add in happy.

01:05:49.280 I mean, do women tend to, you know, women tend to want tall, happy, successful men.

01:05:55.220 So I wouldn't necessarily just attribute it to marriage, even though in some cases that helps.

01:06:03.360 I'm having a little trouble following.

01:06:04.780 You're saying because...

01:06:06.480 Because you guys always attribute what...

01:06:09.520 You guys always attribute if a man's happy, it's because of his marriage.

01:06:15.000 I'm just saying married people are...

01:06:17.720 In as much as one can measure happiness, married people seem to be significantly happier than unmarried people.

01:06:24.580 Then men will sign right up.

01:06:28.600 I think people do things that are extremely perverse today, largely because of individualism and liberalism.

01:06:35.280 But even that word happiness is important because, you know, we say we can't measure happiness.

01:06:41.720 I don't even know that we can define happiness now.

01:06:44.220 Okay.

01:06:44.660 You know, what do we even mean by happiness?

01:06:48.580 I have a definition that I go by, but what do you mean by it?

01:06:55.960 I guess I couldn't say definition off the top of my head.

01:06:58.420 I see what you mean.

01:06:59.480 Right?

01:06:59.880 I mean, so many people mean so many different things by it.

01:07:02.320 I always go by good old Uncle Aristotle's definition.

01:07:05.280 Of happiness is eudaimonia, which is rational activity conducted in accordance with virtue.

01:07:12.640 And so the reason I mention this is not just because I love, you know, the old dead thinkers,

01:07:18.400 but because I think they had something right that will help to guide us through this very confused modern time.

01:07:23.900 The way that you are describing marriage seems to be from an unmoored perspective.

01:07:31.900 An un-what?

01:07:33.040 Unmoored, meaning not grounded in something.

01:07:35.560 Meaning it's a little subjective.

01:07:38.600 It's a little wishy-washy.

01:07:41.000 Men can do whatever they like.

01:07:42.240 You pick.

01:07:42.660 Some people have a different purpose.

01:07:44.060 It's not what I said.

01:07:44.680 I thought you said men can do whatever they like.

01:07:46.860 I'm not going to recommend.

01:07:47.840 You took issue with me for saying that I was coming to a moral judgment about how men can.

01:07:51.320 No, I think that every man has to decide for himself.

01:07:56.400 But I wouldn't recommend, say, like.

01:07:58.140 How should he decide?

01:08:00.980 Following, in an ideal world, following God and his purpose.

01:08:05.140 Right.

01:08:05.340 So, following God and his purpose.

01:08:09.280 And how do we come to know our purpose?

01:08:14.820 I mean, I think following God typically meant finding God.

01:08:18.280 How do we follow God?

01:08:23.700 You know, going to church every Sunday.

01:08:25.940 You know, praying.

01:08:26.740 You know, I think there's ways that you can't.

01:08:27.980 Studying the Bible.

01:08:29.620 But, you know, I'm not like a preacher, you know.

01:08:32.360 You're not.

01:08:32.720 The thing you keep leaving, I agree, all those things are good to do.

01:08:35.340 The thing you keep leaving out is reason.

01:08:37.820 And it's the thing you keep taking issue with me, where I keep saying marriage is a rational act.

01:08:43.880 It was.

01:08:45.260 I don't know if it is now.

01:08:46.360 But even though the laws are bad and the politicians are dummies, even still, it's a rational act

01:08:52.260 over and above the qualities of the state because of human nature.

01:08:57.920 Because men and women are different.

01:08:59.440 Because we are a rational creature.

01:09:01.220 So we can, you know, perceive of things like abstract justice.

01:09:04.960 Animals can't do that.

01:09:06.040 My whiskey glass can't do that.

01:09:08.160 So we can do that.

01:09:09.280 Men and women are different.

01:09:10.460 We're not, like the feminists say, they say we're identical.

01:09:13.700 We're not identical.

01:09:14.520 I agree.

01:09:14.980 We're not.

01:09:15.440 And like the feminists and some of the, some it would seem of the red pill guys would imply

01:09:19.900 we're not totally opposed to one another in our interests.

01:09:23.500 The, who, who would suggest this?

01:09:26.140 Yeah, I know.

01:09:26.460 I just, you guys always say red pill guys.

01:09:28.220 I never know.

01:09:28.680 I don't like to give them airtime because I find them to be huge jerks and they have smaller

01:09:32.240 audiences and I don't want to popularize them.

01:09:34.360 But I think we know some of the people that we're talking about.

01:09:37.020 Okay.

01:09:37.600 Okay.

01:09:38.900 And I, if you think it's an unfair characterization, please tell me.

01:09:42.380 I think that.

01:09:42.860 Well, I just, I don't, I don't speak for every red pill guy.

01:09:45.500 But you're describing the, the interests of men and women as being quite opposed.

01:09:48.940 You've been talking about it this whole time.

01:09:50.100 The, you know, the, the mothers when they're staying at home.

01:09:52.740 The way the laws are, the way the laws are today.

01:09:54.600 Not just the laws, the behaviors.

01:09:55.620 You're saying the mother at home is poisoning the children against their father.

01:09:58.460 It's very common.

01:09:59.240 Right.

01:09:59.480 So anyway, that's the view I'm discussing.

01:10:00.980 It's very common.

01:10:01.460 But again, I don't think that that is ultimately the relation between men and women as hostile

01:10:05.200 interests.

01:10:06.060 I think, call me crazy and old fashioned, I think that men and women are complementary.

01:10:10.660 We're physically complementary with one another.

01:10:12.700 And we are spiritually complementary with one another.

01:10:14.300 I agree.

01:10:14.920 And so when I say that marriage is a rational activity, I mean that.

01:10:20.100 The fact that man is social, the fact that men and women are complementary, the fact that

01:10:24.760 men and women are coupling creatures and that it is in our interest at a very basic level

01:10:30.440 to procreate and therefore, and consequently to educate the children, makes marriage a natural

01:10:37.880 institution that does not actually change no matter what the politicians say.

01:10:43.240 I think that that's easy to say in your position.

01:10:47.900 I think it's very difficult.

01:10:48.660 And I would agree that marriage is a natural thing.

01:10:53.460 I would agree that men and women are better together.

01:10:56.460 But I think when you're paying people to do the wrong thing, which if a man has children

01:11:01.840 in this country, the woman is being paid to leave, you're going to have a higher percentage

01:11:06.380 of women that do it, religious or not.

01:11:09.860 No, they're much less likely.

01:11:11.940 But religious or not, the woman will not care in divorce court.

01:11:16.040 She will.

01:11:16.620 The religious woman is more likely to care.

01:11:18.280 If we're going to go off of the numbers, it's roughly 25% to a third of Catholics.

01:11:23.440 That's an insignificant number.

01:11:25.200 But it's like 5% for people.

01:11:27.040 And it's like 10%.

01:11:28.540 I don't, those numbers include people over a certain age, under a certain age.

01:11:34.240 That's a different, that's a different, no, that's, it's not moving the goalpost.

01:11:37.220 It's something that you should consider.

01:11:39.240 Okay, so.

01:11:39.880 But I'm considering, but you mentioned the statistics, but then you said I can't trust

01:11:43.060 the statistics when they contradict your argument.

01:11:44.480 No, no, I'm, no, that's not what I said.

01:11:46.580 I said that over the age of 40, roughly 35, it's a different time.

01:11:51.640 And the women of today are not the women of yesterday.

01:11:55.080 It's a different, you know, we would agree that it's a lower, I mean, just going on

01:11:59.980 whatever.

01:12:00.600 I mean, I don't know about you.

01:12:01.660 I had never met a sex worker in my life.

01:12:04.260 Yeah.

01:12:04.620 I had never, no, I never had.

01:12:06.160 But I grew, like, I grew up in a Catholic community.

01:12:09.060 That wasn't normal.

01:12:10.520 Because that technology didn't exist.

01:12:12.260 But now I'm seeing, now I'm seeing, you know, ex-porn stars as preachers.

01:12:18.520 You haven't seen that?

01:12:19.720 Oh, it's, oh yeah.

01:12:21.020 At least they're ex-porn stars, better than current porn stars.

01:12:23.360 Thank God.

01:12:23.940 No, but people, no, I mean, even that.

01:12:25.660 That's my, that's my point.

01:12:27.460 I mean, you know, look, St. Paul persecuted Christians, you know, and then he was knocked

01:12:31.600 off a, off a horse on the road to Damascus and, you know, became the apostle to the Gentiles.

01:12:35.480 So people can change their lives.

01:12:37.280 And I think that's something you're kind of downplaying here.

01:12:40.060 No, I'm not downplaying that people can change their lives.

01:12:43.220 What I'm downplaying is that it, not downplaying, what I'm saying is that it's not really wise

01:12:48.340 for men to date former sex workers, regardless of what they say.

01:12:54.060 Why not?

01:12:55.180 Why not?

01:12:55.720 I'm not, I'm not saying it's ideal, but why not?

01:12:57.960 Because I think the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.

01:13:02.500 So then you are sort of denying that people can change.

01:13:04.500 Like, no, no, I'm not denying that people can change.

01:13:08.700 I would say most people don't change in general.

01:13:12.360 Like, I wouldn't say women go date a criminal.

01:13:15.260 Yeah, I wouldn't recommend it.

01:13:15.900 I wouldn't.

01:13:16.560 You know, there might be the exception, but it doesn't make the rule.

01:13:19.800 Yeah, but I, you know, I'll tell you, growing up in New York, I know some reformed criminals

01:13:23.560 who are actually reformed, who are, you know.

01:13:25.940 Yeah, but the difference is criminals actually have consequences where women tend to not have

01:13:30.300 consequences for their decisions.

01:13:31.600 You don't think the women, I think the women, modern women face a lot of consequences.

01:13:34.960 They don't want to admit it.

01:13:35.820 No, no.

01:13:36.640 We're bailed out of every bad decision we make.

01:13:39.160 I don't think so, because you can't get bailed out of reality.

01:13:41.580 So, like, I agree, you know, the divorce courts are jilted toward women or whatever.

01:13:45.420 But, like, the woman who goes to a university, I'm sure you get these letters, I get them

01:13:49.920 too.

01:13:50.860 The woman who goes to a university is told, hook up with every guy you can, study something.

01:13:56.500 She chooses to, not told.

01:13:58.340 She's also told, and she chooses to.

01:13:59.980 She's also told by the culture.

01:14:01.080 Yes, she chooses to, because that's what she wants to do.

01:14:03.120 But she's also told to do it by the culture.

01:14:05.560 You can't downplay that, right?

01:14:07.460 You can be told to do so.

01:14:08.900 I can be told to jump off a bridge that doesn't mean I should do it.

01:14:10.860 Right, I know, but you just said she's not told that, and I'm saying she very much

01:14:13.220 is told by the culture.

01:14:13.520 Well, I'm saying she doesn't have to listen.

01:14:15.560 I think it takes accountability off of women when we're constantly saying that the world

01:14:19.380 told you to, and that's why you did it.

01:14:21.060 No, no, no.

01:14:21.660 I agree that their wills have been malformed, and that our entire education system, broadly

01:14:28.080 speaking, now indulges the lower passions and denies the rational will and denies even

01:14:33.380 the place of reason and truth in public life.

01:14:35.740 So she does that, and she makes bad choices, and she picks some dumb major, and she graduates,

01:14:41.700 and she's told, don't get married.

01:14:43.100 You've got to go move to the city, and you've got to sleep with a thousand men, and you've

01:14:46.380 got to get a job working as a middle manager at a widget factory.

01:14:49.420 And you're going to do that, and you're going to totally bypass your childbearing years,

01:14:52.740 sleeping around and going out for brunch, and working for Mr. McGillicuddy at the widget

01:14:57.040 factory.

01:14:57.220 She chooses to do that.

01:14:57.840 She's choosing it, and she's making a poor choice, and she's being encouraged to do it by

01:15:00.780 a fallen culture.

01:15:02.180 And then she's going to wake up one day, and she's going to be about 34, and she's going

01:15:05.760 to regret all of these decisions, and she's going to cry into TikTok.

01:15:08.960 That's what's going to happen.

01:15:09.760 That is a consequence.

01:15:11.000 Living with the consequences of being used by men, of not being able to have a harder

01:15:15.660 time getting married, not having kids, and...

01:15:18.680 Why is it the...

01:15:19.760 That's a consequence.

01:15:20.900 I'm sorry.

01:15:21.200 I'm sorry.

01:15:21.720 I've been cutting you off a couple times.

01:15:23.640 I do apologize.

01:15:24.680 I've got thick skin.

01:15:25.680 I do.

01:15:26.180 I don't mean to cut you off.

01:15:27.520 It's okay.

01:15:27.720 But, because my question is, why do we always say is used by men?

01:15:33.900 Because men use women for sex.

01:15:37.380 No, but women don't use...

01:15:39.100 You know, there are women that hunt top men down and try to sleep with them.

01:15:43.620 I'm sure the top men are...

01:15:44.960 I mean, I don't know what top men...

01:15:46.300 But I know, but see, even the way you describe it, it's like always putting it on the men.

01:15:50.940 Because men and women react differently to sex, and because men tend to pursue in sex,

01:15:56.620 and women tend to be pursued, because...

01:15:59.680 Oh, no.

01:16:00.080 Not the top guys, you know.

01:16:01.440 What do you mean by a top guy?

01:16:02.560 Yeah, like I've interviewed...

01:16:04.940 I had Brittany Renner on my show.

01:16:07.840 Do you know who that is?

01:16:08.500 I don't.

01:16:09.360 You know, there are girls that they learn every...

01:16:12.800 She talks about this.

01:16:13.660 They learn every single thing about, like, they become targets, the men.

01:16:17.260 Yeah.

01:16:17.480 You know, and they get the guys to sleep with them.

01:16:20.600 They try to steal condoms.

01:16:22.200 Like, this is not...

01:16:23.660 Who's a top man?

01:16:24.980 You mentioned a woman.

01:16:25.740 Who's a top man?

01:16:26.980 And am I a top man?

01:16:27.480 Well, this is something...

01:16:29.400 I want to be called a top man.

01:16:29.860 If you were dating again, you might be.

01:16:32.080 I would be?

01:16:32.580 All right.

01:16:32.940 That's good.

01:16:33.500 You might be.

01:16:34.220 I mean, women, when there's money, you know...

01:16:36.080 Just my money?

01:16:36.880 It's not my sparkling personality and my good looks?

01:16:39.320 All right.

01:16:39.660 Look it.

01:16:40.040 Look it.

01:16:40.820 Okay.

01:16:41.780 But I just notice in the language, like, somehow it's always the men's fault.

01:16:46.780 When we talk about sin.

01:16:48.940 So even in that sin...

01:16:50.320 Women's sin.

01:16:50.980 But women are easily...

01:16:52.240 Women are taken advantage of because...

01:16:54.000 I disagree.

01:16:55.020 Do you think men and women relate to sex in the same way?

01:16:57.840 I think that at times women have more sexual power than men.

01:17:01.380 I'm not denying...

01:17:02.120 And so...

01:17:02.780 Women always have more sexual power than men.

01:17:03.460 I mean, women take advantage of...

01:17:05.340 You could say women take advantage of lonely men and only can.

01:17:07.700 But I'm...

01:17:08.200 They do.

01:17:08.920 What I'm asking is, do you think that men and women relate to sex in the same way?

01:17:15.220 No.

01:17:16.000 They don't.

01:17:16.460 That's why we talk about men and women in sex differently.

01:17:20.100 And we ascribe different moral...

01:17:21.780 Right.

01:17:22.080 But I think your accountability for the action is still...

01:17:25.740 It's on you.

01:17:26.940 So I don't think when women sin, it's the fault of society.

01:17:31.280 I don't think it's the fault the men are just using you.

01:17:34.240 You know, I think that when women do that, it's a choice.

01:17:39.840 Sure.

01:17:40.320 Do you think people can be deceived?

01:17:41.900 I think women play dumb a lot.

01:17:46.020 It's like, I'll interview these women on abortion.

01:17:48.740 And they're like, oh, I didn't know.

01:17:50.040 What?

01:17:50.160 You didn't have Google?

01:17:51.180 Yeah, yeah.

01:17:51.700 Well, you say they play dumb, which they do.

01:17:53.160 But are they dumb sometimes?

01:17:54.080 Yeah, but that's fine.

01:17:54.660 That's what I'm asking.

01:17:55.380 Well.

01:17:56.900 You would say yes.

01:17:57.760 You would say yes.

01:17:58.260 Yeah, but...

01:17:58.720 People obviously can be deceived.

01:17:59.840 They can be deceived, but you're still accountable for the choices that you make.

01:18:04.140 And I don't necessarily...

01:18:05.980 I think sometimes it's just the easier choice.

01:18:08.620 Like, women don't want to do the hard thing.

01:18:11.480 What's the hard thing?

01:18:13.180 I would say it's easy to sleep around.

01:18:16.020 Yeah, yeah.

01:18:16.560 That's an easy thing to do.

01:18:17.460 Women are picky.

01:18:17.660 It's a temptation.

01:18:18.780 For men, too.

01:18:20.260 Correct.

01:18:20.660 Probably more for men.

01:18:21.160 But it's easier for women.

01:18:23.680 Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying.

01:18:25.080 Correct, correct.

01:18:25.640 That's the getting...

01:18:26.720 That's kind of why I attack the guys for using women.

01:18:31.380 What percent of men are even using women?

01:18:34.280 It's like 80% of women are involved in hookup culture, maybe 5% of men.

01:18:38.420 And I can tell you, I can even say this from doing my show.

01:18:41.340 I'll interview a guy.

01:18:42.920 He's sleeping with like three, four...

01:18:44.420 He'll go on...

01:18:45.500 Yeah, that's bad.

01:18:45.840 Three, four chicks from the show.

01:18:47.360 Right, that's bad, right?

01:18:48.380 That's bad.

01:18:48.960 You would say that's a bad thing for him.

01:18:50.940 Sure, sure.

01:18:51.780 But my point is more women.

01:18:53.860 There's five women partaking in it where there's one man.

01:18:56.720 But it's one man doing it five times as much as the women.

01:18:58.960 That's why I'm knocking the men.

01:19:00.420 But my point is more women are responsible for hookup culture than men.

01:19:03.980 But the men are more...

01:19:05.700 You just acknowledged the men are more culpable in that they are doing it more frequently than the women.

01:19:11.160 No, I would say there's five women, so it's way more...

01:19:13.720 But they're individually each doing it with the same guy.

01:19:16.400 But I'm talking about like, you're basically saying to men, oh, don't sleep.

01:19:20.100 But most men can't.

01:19:21.460 Most men aren't.

01:19:22.320 Which is good.

01:19:22.860 That's actually a great limitation of their ugualness.

01:19:24.880 Yeah, fine, fine, fine.

01:19:26.240 But it's like...

01:19:26.960 Their lack of riz.

01:19:27.700 But it's just so funny.

01:19:29.020 The riz.

01:19:30.020 But it's funny because it's like the hookup culture.

01:19:34.040 Women are more responsible for hookup culture than men.

01:19:36.860 And if there's 10 women that partake in it, there's less men that can't.

01:19:41.360 No, women are more responsible for hookup culture than men because they allow men to sleep with them.

01:19:45.240 And they're the ones who are being pursued.

01:19:46.680 So I agree with you on that.

01:19:47.800 Well, the top men are...

01:19:50.260 The women are pursuing them.

01:19:51.680 I would...

01:19:52.080 If you look at like...

01:19:53.140 But...

01:19:53.460 Yeah, again, do we have an example of a top man?

01:19:56.860 I mean, examples that I think of, but I know because this is always where the convo goes.

01:20:01.500 Then it's like the religion decides who's a top man.

01:20:04.840 But I'm talking about like who women...

01:20:06.640 No, this is the first I'm hearing this term.

01:20:08.380 And I would like it to apply to me, but perhaps you won't.

01:20:10.300 So who's a top man?

01:20:11.360 Okay, an example of a type of man that women go for is say, you know, athletes.

01:20:16.500 Yeah, sneaker chasers.

01:20:18.280 Jersey chasers, we called them.

01:20:19.460 Yeah, yeah, yeah, correct.

01:20:20.460 I'm saying like in those examples, the women are pursuing them.

01:20:23.980 It's not the women being innocent and used.

01:20:26.240 It's women driving to the games, getting a hotel.

01:20:29.340 Yeah, they're interested.

01:20:30.160 Stalking, you know, there is one chick.

01:20:32.780 God, it was crazy.

01:20:33.620 And she tells me that like, God, this is just such a crazy story.

01:20:43.340 They literally like figure out where there's like a, what do you call it?

01:20:48.680 A hangout, I guess, after games where the athletes all go and the wives aren't there.

01:20:53.220 And there are women that go there and try to get men to cheat on their wives.

01:20:57.140 Groupies.

01:20:57.640 They're like groupies.

01:20:58.220 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:20:59.440 Yeah, but my point is there are far more women responsible for hookup culture than men.

01:21:04.200 But yet, when I go on podcasts, we always somehow bring the conversation back to the men.

01:21:08.860 Even though far more women are engaging in it.

01:21:11.080 This is, I guess, why.

01:21:11.920 And we can't even definitively say don't date a woman that did sex work.

01:21:15.640 I find this kind of utilitarian view of responsibility actually kind of delightful.

01:21:22.780 When you say, look, there's five women who are doing it.

01:21:24.360 Though I think it does cut the other way because each of these total Sigma Chad dudes

01:21:28.000 are sleeping with like five women each.

01:21:29.860 So I think either way it kind of cuts.

01:21:31.620 But that's not really my question at all.

01:21:34.980 My question is, don't men have a moral responsibility to act in a certain way?

01:21:44.320 Men cannot lead women that don't want to be led.

01:21:48.400 Yes, yes, yes, yes.

01:21:50.380 Wait, wait, wait.

01:21:50.980 Let me finish, Michael.

01:21:53.020 Okay, I was trying to lead you.

01:21:55.800 Sorry.

01:21:56.720 No, no.

01:21:58.000 I do think men have a moral responsibility to act in a certain way, yes.

01:22:02.920 Great.

01:22:03.320 Yeah.

01:22:03.680 Well, there you have it.

01:22:04.060 But I don't think men have to get married if there are not enough wives to go around.

01:22:09.560 But there...

01:22:11.480 It's like it doesn't...

01:22:12.120 If there are not enough women who you say are married.

01:22:13.920 You know what's so crazy?

01:22:15.240 What?

01:22:15.820 Under the age of 35.

01:22:17.380 Yeah.

01:22:18.080 Now, the problem is with a lot of these...

01:22:20.460 I know we're going to go back to that.

01:22:22.080 Statistics are all fake, but I'm happy to hear them.

01:22:23.820 Well, I'd believe it, too, just from interviewing 1,000 women.

01:22:26.820 Sure.

01:22:27.600 5 to 15% of women under 35 are on full OnlyFans, Cam, or some sort of sex work.

01:22:33.460 According, according.

01:22:34.460 There's a guy who does research for me.

01:22:37.120 Okay.

01:22:37.880 Dr. David Baker.

01:22:38.820 He's like a published author.

01:22:39.860 Really, really smart guy.

01:22:41.860 That seems high to me.

01:22:43.320 That's what I thought, too.

01:22:44.560 I swear to God.

01:22:45.100 That's what I thought.

01:22:46.140 Until I interviewed 1,000 women.

01:22:48.600 I can't even count how many sex workers I've met.

01:22:50.480 But don't you think the kind of women who go on relationship podcasts are kind of self-selecting?

01:22:58.340 Don't you think the trad women just don't go on camera?

01:23:01.260 That's been my experience.

01:23:02.940 No.

01:23:03.780 No?

01:23:04.160 I think trad women would.

01:23:05.020 I would say when you interview 1,000 women, you just start to see patterns.

01:23:12.740 I've had Christian women on.

01:23:14.200 I've had women from Eastern Europe.

01:23:16.060 I've had women...

01:23:17.080 We don't select for...

01:23:18.200 Eastern Europe is like the hotbed of pornography in the world, isn't it?

01:23:20.960 Well, I mean, I could say Japan.

01:23:23.060 I could keep going.

01:23:24.700 I'm in London, so it's pretty international.

01:23:26.720 I guess my only point is women who go on shows to be interviewed tend to be a little

01:23:30.560 less trad than the women who stay home and bake bread.

01:23:33.660 You know a lot of women under the age of 30 that are staying home and baking bread?

01:23:37.960 I do.

01:23:38.660 I think that it's, again, as I've said, you guys are a bit out of touch to what the average

01:23:44.020 man is experiencing dating in this country.

01:23:46.360 Or are we just in touch with a different group of people?

01:23:49.440 I guess is my point.

01:23:50.220 You're right.

01:23:51.100 When one surrounds oneself with people who are divorced or with people who are on OnlyFans

01:23:57.740 or whatever, then it kind of skews where you would find the median or the average.

01:24:01.780 But if you spend your time in the middle of America with nice parishes...

01:24:06.500 Well, you just contradicted yourself because earlier you said that you had close friends

01:24:10.580 that were divorced.

01:24:11.620 I do.

01:24:11.900 But it's not the average.

01:24:13.100 Even in your circles, you still...

01:24:16.080 Well, I'm from New York and I lived in LA, so, you know, I wasn't always, you know...

01:24:19.120 Right, but that's why sometimes I'm like, do you not see reality?

01:24:22.500 Like, do you guys not see what's going on out here?

01:24:25.340 Yeah, I agree that...

01:24:25.980 And religious attendance in the younger generation, it's going down.

01:24:30.000 It's lower than ever.

01:24:30.900 Yeah, sure.

01:24:31.700 Though, again, you've kind of got to get a little bit more specific about it because

01:24:35.180 the people...

01:24:36.380 First of all, there is a movement of young people going back to churches and they're going

01:24:39.540 back to the more orthodox ones.

01:24:40.580 They're not going to the hippy-dippy egalitarian feminist.

01:24:43.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:24:43.680 So, you know, again, this is why I find the statistical arguments to be kind of fruitless,

01:24:50.240 which is, okay, you know, when we say something is natural, we mean it in two ways, right?

01:24:55.660 We mean it in deriving from the principles of nature, like, you know, a tree sprouts from

01:25:00.900 the ground, and we mean it in a way that involves free will.

01:25:05.120 Like, you know, you can make a natural choice or an unnatural choice.

01:25:07.760 And so, I guess what I'm suggesting is we live in a time that is exalting, really unnatural

01:25:13.540 and disordered behaviors, especially in the circles you're talking about.

01:25:17.080 And I'm suggesting maybe we ought to focus on these circles that are growing in a lot

01:25:21.180 of places where there is a return toward reasonable behavior.

01:25:26.760 What about what Glenn was talking about earlier when he was talking about that?

01:25:31.180 What verses were they?

01:25:32.360 Proverbs 31.

01:25:33.480 So, Proverbs...

01:25:34.400 Proverbs 31 talks about how rare a virtuous wife is.

01:25:39.860 Yes.

01:25:40.340 Yeah.

01:25:40.820 Yes.

01:25:41.020 I mean, that's rare as a root.

01:25:42.700 For those who can't hear without the microphone.

01:25:44.400 Yeah, okay.

01:25:44.840 You know, that a virtuous woman is rarer than the finest rubies.

01:25:49.320 Yeah.

01:25:49.720 Yeah.

01:25:50.340 But that would, even in the Bible, it implies that it's an exception, not the rule.

01:25:55.260 Sure.

01:25:55.740 And also, the Bible says, be fruitful and multiply.

01:25:58.080 And, you know, our Lord says in the Gospel of St. Matthew, you know, what man has joined,

01:26:02.400 let no man separate.

01:26:03.280 Right, right.

01:26:04.020 But when one out of, when a quarter of women are getting abortions, you know, it's the

01:26:08.360 women that aren't doing, like, that aren't going along with this.

01:26:10.860 But what is your point?

01:26:11.600 You're saying, you're citing the Bible to say people ought not to get married, but I'm

01:26:14.700 saying it doesn't say that.

01:26:14.860 No, I'm not saying not to get married.

01:26:16.580 I'm saying it's incredibly difficult for a man to find a woman worthy of being a wife

01:26:22.200 in the current climate.

01:26:23.380 What do you think virtue is?

01:26:26.380 What do I think?

01:26:26.980 You brought up the terms.

01:26:28.020 No, you brought it up.

01:26:28.780 You're the one who said, you said...

01:26:29.920 No, I don't use that word, virtue.

01:26:31.460 In Proverbs, you just mentioned, you brought up the line of Proverbs as a virtuous woman.

01:26:34.980 Well, Glenn brought up the, but yeah.

01:26:37.040 And then you brought up Glenn.

01:26:38.460 So what, so, I mean, I just think there's a misunderstanding here because virtue is not

01:26:43.740 something that's static.

01:26:45.340 Virtue is a habit.

01:26:46.860 So you cultivate virtues and you cultivate vices and their habits.

01:26:50.900 It's like drugs, you know, that would be a vicious habit.

01:26:53.140 But shouldn't men marry women with good habits and good virtue?

01:26:56.680 But the way a habit works is it's not static in time.

01:27:00.800 It is something that continues and changes.

01:27:02.360 Right, but with...

01:27:03.760 And can reverse.

01:27:04.680 But with how unfair the laws are to men, again, don't you think men should be extremely selective?

01:27:11.560 I question if you...

01:27:12.460 I'm not saying men ought to, you know, throw a stick out the window and marry the first woman it hits.

01:27:16.160 I mean, you said an ex-OnlyFans model.

01:27:19.140 That's basically the equivalent.

01:27:20.500 I said that, no, I don't think so.

01:27:23.080 I mean, basically...

01:27:24.280 Come on, an ex-Only, that's like the...

01:27:26.700 I can't think of anyone...

01:27:27.620 I don't think anyone's beyond me.

01:27:28.180 I can't think of anyone worse for my...

01:27:30.260 I don't know how you can't definitively say no to that.

01:27:33.640 Well, because...

01:27:34.120 Like, if I had someone that I loved and he was looking for a wife, you know, like my brother.

01:27:38.860 And he said, well, I found this girl in church that used to do OnlyFans.

01:27:42.480 I'd say, oh, please, no, anyone else.

01:27:44.940 Yeah, yeah, I guess the point...

01:27:45.800 Please, God, you wouldn't want your son...

01:27:47.160 You know, you have sons, right?

01:27:48.500 I do.

01:27:48.700 You know, you wouldn't want them to date an ex-OnlyFans model.

01:27:52.280 You would want them to be really selective, especially with what's going up against them.

01:27:56.720 I guess the point I'm making is that no one is beyond redemption.

01:27:59.760 And it seems to me you're saying people are beyond redemption.

01:28:02.300 No, I'm saying that men don't have to forgive your sin and actions have consequences.

01:28:07.340 And when we tell women...

01:28:08.740 But no one's denying it'll be harder for an ex-OnlyFans person to get married.

01:28:12.000 No one's denying it.

01:28:12.840 It's pretty much impossible, I would say.

01:28:14.440 Yeah, it would be very...

01:28:15.200 It's very difficult.

01:28:15.740 Yeah, yeah, but...

01:28:16.440 It's not impossible, though.

01:28:16.840 Yeah.

01:28:18.020 I know ex-pornographers who have gotten married, but...

01:28:21.280 Yeah, well, well...

01:28:23.060 So it's not impossible, but it's harder.

01:28:24.980 It adds a lot of challenges.

01:28:25.940 Right, but...

01:28:26.400 I recommend people not, you know, do bad things.

01:28:28.360 Yeah, correct.

01:28:29.180 But what we often...

01:28:31.000 And I saw this, you know, even in the chastity speakers.

01:28:34.420 I'm sure you know them, actually, that Jason and Christiana Everett.

01:28:37.800 I don't.

01:28:38.400 Really?

01:28:38.820 I don't actually.

01:28:39.280 That's like the number one chastity.

01:28:41.480 Whenever you would have...

01:28:42.200 No, I don't go to a lot of chastity.

01:28:43.640 I'm already married.

01:28:44.440 I'm not, you know, I'm chaste.

01:28:45.540 I'm not celibate.

01:28:46.880 Well, they would have them, like, come to our high school.

01:28:49.560 And whatever sin the woman always did, it was always blamed upon the man.

01:28:53.900 Always.

01:28:54.520 Like, it's always if she slept around...

01:28:56.200 If she slept around, it wasn't because she wanted to.

01:28:58.620 It was because she was being used.

01:29:00.380 You see the difference?

01:29:01.080 Well, there is a distinction here, which is that women are the weaker sex,

01:29:03.720 so men bear greater responsibility.

01:29:05.520 Eve eats the apple, but all man sins in Adam.

01:29:08.440 But how is a man responsible for women doing OnlyFans?

01:29:11.920 That's a choice.

01:29:12.920 Because...

01:29:13.200 And that's what I think we should...

01:29:14.560 Because, well, men are the consumers in the case of OnlyFans, right?

01:29:17.220 Yeah, but...

01:29:18.400 So they do bear some responsibility.

01:29:19.700 Well, I mean, even they have to post it before there's any consumers.

01:29:23.360 No, the reason they post is because there's a market.

01:29:25.980 Not really.

01:29:27.240 You know what the average OnlyFans...

01:29:27.880 We're getting back to the chicken and the egg of pornography.

01:29:29.120 No, no.

01:29:29.400 Do you know what the average OnlyFans model makes?

01:29:31.740 It is not about money.

01:29:32.520 But they're duped.

01:29:33.080 But why do they get on?

01:29:34.380 Attention.

01:29:34.980 They want attention.

01:29:36.280 You know, there's women on podcasts, and you see them.

01:29:39.440 They say they'll do it for free.

01:29:41.040 They want attention.

01:29:41.940 Right, but...

01:29:42.480 Women will...

01:29:42.940 I think you were on a show, right?

01:29:44.460 On whatever?

01:29:45.200 Yeah, didn't she, that girl say that?

01:29:46.600 That she would do it even without the money?

01:29:49.280 Maybe.

01:29:49.860 Even if we go...

01:29:50.540 Some of what they say gets a little blurry.

01:29:51.560 Michael, let's go outside.

01:29:52.900 You know, let's walk.

01:29:53.520 So I went to Vegas, you know.

01:29:55.720 The women are walking around with the stickers on their boobs.

01:29:58.180 No man made them do that.

01:29:59.460 The little pasties?

01:30:00.620 Yeah.

01:30:01.040 Yeah, right.

01:30:01.440 But why are they doing it?

01:30:02.020 You're saying...

01:30:02.640 Again, I'm not...

01:30:03.420 I'm saying they like the attention.

01:30:05.240 They know it'll attract attention.

01:30:07.580 Right, so I'm not saying that women aren't culpable when they do bad things.

01:30:11.040 But what I'm saying is that men share some of this culpability because they're the ones

01:30:14.760 consuming it.

01:30:15.380 No, I think everyone's responsible for their own choices.

01:30:18.420 And I think that includes women.

01:30:19.840 And the more we coddle women and say, oh, you poor thing, it was the men.

01:30:24.760 Oh, you were lied to by feminism.

01:30:27.500 Oh, everything's everyone else's fault.

01:30:29.460 That's why you have these women at 35 that act like entitled brats.

01:30:32.680 No, no, no.

01:30:33.180 But I guess this is why I'm suggesting that the view I'm articulating...

01:30:37.680 Oh, you might get a husband after only...

01:30:40.000 No, no one's suggesting that that would be particularly easy.

01:30:43.660 Right.

01:30:43.960 But I guess the reason I'm suggesting what would be probably the conservative or traditional

01:30:48.360 or Christian view of marriage and the sexes.

01:30:51.240 And the reason that I'm describing yours, and I take it the Red Pill's view of marriage

01:30:55.080 and the sexes, as being liberal and individualist and feminist is because of, well, what you

01:31:01.080 just said.

01:31:01.580 You said everyone is totally responsible for their own choices.

01:31:05.020 And that did not...

01:31:06.140 Do you think people aren't responsible for their own choices?

01:31:07.980 I think that our wills are conditioned by our environments and our education and public

01:31:11.760 life because we're a social creature who lives in community with others.

01:31:15.640 So how do you explain people making completely different choices in the exact...

01:31:20.380 I know siblings where one ends up doing one...

01:31:25.880 Yeah, I mean, come on, you know.

01:31:26.880 Right.

01:31:27.160 Like, you have a couple kids, don't you?

01:31:29.480 Yes.

01:31:30.180 They're different.

01:31:30.740 Two and a half, I see.

01:31:31.920 One on the way.

01:31:32.880 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:31:33.440 Oh, congrats.

01:31:34.340 Thank you.

01:31:36.420 You know, people are different and they make different choices.

01:31:39.200 So are you saying people aren't conditioned in their will by their environments?

01:31:44.120 That's what an extreme liberal would say.

01:31:46.020 And maybe that's what you believe, but I don't believe.

01:31:47.840 No, no.

01:31:48.740 So I think, I don't really know what that means, but...

01:31:52.900 Meaning, are we affected?

01:31:55.920 If you grow up in a really bad community where you're taught all sorts of bad things, where

01:31:59.540 you're introduced to drugs and porn and gluttony and just all this nasty stuff around, are

01:32:05.400 you more likely to fall into bad vices and habits and temptations?

01:32:11.460 You're more likely, but you're still responsible for your decisions.

01:32:15.080 You are 100% responsible for the choices that you make.

01:32:18.280 Sure.

01:32:18.780 If a man chooses, you know, there are men that grew up in bad environments that choose to

01:32:23.000 be millionaires, and there's others that choose to be drug dealers.

01:32:26.200 And there's some who choose to be millionaires and fail.

01:32:28.940 So there's an, what you seem to be describing is a real primacy of the will, of the individual

01:32:36.320 will.

01:32:36.720 And I'm saying that free will obviously exists, but it's conditioned by other factors.

01:32:40.880 Why is it that marriage is collapsing?

01:32:43.680 Is it because everyone just of their own free will, just totally absent environmental

01:32:47.000 concerns, just decided one day not to get married?

01:32:49.640 Because women want to leave.

01:32:50.540 Because when women got the choice to get money instead of have a father in the home, women

01:32:55.640 have chosen to take the money.

01:32:56.700 So I think you've just proven my point though.

01:32:58.820 Even if what you just said is true, you're saying that a political and social condition

01:33:03.720 changed the way that human beings, the women, exercise their free will.

01:33:08.240 It changed the incentives, but that didn't mean women had to take it.

01:33:11.840 But it changed the way they exercised it.

01:33:12.800 It's not, but it's not the government's fault.

01:33:14.560 It's women's fault for making that choice.

01:33:17.020 Right.

01:33:17.260 It's not, it's not society's fault.

01:33:18.960 It's women's fault.

01:33:19.920 It's, it's the person's fault for making, everybody is responsible for their own.

01:33:24.280 But, but had the social condition and the law not changed, women would not have made

01:33:28.580 those choices.

01:33:29.260 Well, you'd be, you'd be surprised actually.

01:33:31.840 I thought that's what you just said.

01:33:32.980 I thought you just said that the reason.

01:33:34.440 No, the majority.

01:33:35.460 No, no, I didn't say the reason.

01:33:36.880 I said it was because women wanted to.

01:33:38.580 No, I said it was because women wanted to.

01:33:40.520 Women wanted to.

01:33:41.140 Women, women have chosen.

01:33:42.380 And it just coincidentally, they, they all of a sudden decided they wanted to when the

01:33:45.340 law changed.

01:33:45.640 Women, women chose, well, they wanted to before that.

01:33:48.800 I mean, they fought for 50 years for abortion.

01:33:51.560 So I'm saying when people, okay.

01:33:53.560 Yeah, we could go back and forth about what I want to do, what you want to do.

01:33:57.940 All I look is at what people do.

01:34:00.460 No, I'm not, I'm not, so I'm not talking about your individual desires at all.

01:34:03.980 I'm talking about desire itself and the relation of, of desire to, you seem to be saying that

01:34:10.500 people exercise their free will in something like a vacuum, you know, and therefore they

01:34:13.900 bear all of the moral responsibility.

01:34:15.800 And I'm saying that we're a social creature and there's, there's more to it than that.

01:34:18.680 Do you, I'm just confused.

01:34:20.740 Do you think you're responsible for the choices you make?

01:34:23.560 I think I, I am a moral agent and I bear moral responsibility and that my ability to exercise

01:34:28.760 my will is conditioned by my environment, by the laws and the customs.

01:34:33.100 You think the environment's responsible for the choices you make?

01:34:36.180 That's not what I said.

01:34:37.160 I said, I'm a moral agent and I'm responsible for my actions.

01:34:40.080 Okay, so you are responsible.

01:34:41.180 But my free will, my ability to exercise my will is conditioned by the laws and the customs

01:34:47.540 and the community in which I live, which is why it's not merely an individual question,

01:34:52.180 but it's also a political question for human beings who are the political animals.

01:34:55.860 Well, that just sounds like a lot of words to me.

01:34:58.460 It is a lot of words.

01:34:59.180 That, that's making, that's making it a bit more complicated than it needs to be from my

01:35:04.420 point of view.

01:35:05.040 Yeah, I think it's just describing reality.

01:35:06.660 And no, I think, I think, I think reality is that you are responsible for the decisions

01:35:11.240 you make.

01:35:12.040 I think that's the best, you know, you know, one thing I'm really grateful for, you know,

01:35:16.280 in my.

01:35:16.520 How does one make a decision?

01:35:18.080 I guess, what might help us to break through this impasse.

01:35:20.640 How does one make a decision?

01:35:22.160 How does one, you, you weigh the pros and the cons and you make a decision.

01:35:26.200 Okay, so the way, so, well, you weigh the pros and the cons is part of it.

01:35:30.520 And then you make a decision.

01:35:31.600 So making a decision is just an exercise of the world.

01:35:33.680 I think you're close, but, but how does one.

01:35:36.700 You're, what are you, the CEO of decision making?

01:35:38.360 How do, no, I'm just, you know, I'm using my reason to, you know, examine an aspect of

01:35:43.480 human nature.

01:35:45.220 How do you, how does one know the pros and the cons?

01:35:51.700 I mean, it depends what decision, but okay.

01:35:54.220 But just in general, how does one know pros, how does one know cons?

01:35:56.420 Let's take, let's take, let's take abortion.

01:35:58.040 Can I, can I use an example?

01:35:59.220 Is that a lot?

01:35:59.580 Please.

01:35:59.900 All right, abortion.

01:36:00.740 You get pregnant, you Google abortions, and then you can decide.

01:36:05.200 And you can weigh the pros and the cons.

01:36:06.760 So Google is one way.

01:36:08.420 You, you, you, the way that you, so what we've just concluded is the way that you exercise.

01:36:13.640 I use it as an example of one way.

01:36:15.760 No, I think you, I think what you've said is right.

01:36:17.280 Okay.

01:36:17.460 But what we have agreed upon now is, is that the way that one exercises free will, that

01:36:23.800 is to, decides on a course of action, is one tries to know something, right?

01:36:30.580 And then one, with the knowledge that they've arrived at, exercises their will in accordance

01:36:35.940 with that knowledge, and that is what's, what we call a free choice.

01:36:38.760 And the example you used is perfect.

01:36:40.580 Because if you Google something, knowing that Google is like the worst leftist company ever

01:36:45.260 in the history of the world, you are very likely to get bad information.

01:36:48.360 No, I didn't.

01:36:48.960 Which is what people.

01:36:49.480 I totally did it.

01:36:50.280 Because, because I was tired, I was tired of the simping.

01:36:52.660 I was really tired of it.

01:36:53.880 I was, I was, because I kept hearing people blaming the, the men for women's like decision

01:36:59.260 making when it came to abortion.

01:37:01.540 And so I, I Google.

01:37:02.460 Oh, you're saying Google gives you good information.

01:37:04.340 I, I would say, no, Google, the top thing when it's that you put in side effects of abortion

01:37:08.400 or depression, anxiety, you know?

01:37:11.780 Yeah, yeah.

01:37:12.400 So, I don't know.

01:37:14.200 I, I think you're responsible for your choices.

01:37:16.180 But, okay, you, but in principle, you just came to a really important aspect of, of free

01:37:21.500 will, which is that free will is, at least in principle, even if you like, I don't like

01:37:26.320 Google, you like Google, but let's put that aside.

01:37:28.900 Well.

01:37:29.320 It doesn't, it actually doesn't matter.

01:37:30.240 Bing's a little bit better.

01:37:31.240 Bing might be better.

01:37:32.100 Yeah.

01:37:33.040 But you said, you've come to the correct conclusion.

01:37:36.360 Right.

01:37:36.440 It's that free will is, the ability to do something is predicated on willing something

01:37:43.560 and that is predicated on knowledge.

01:37:46.980 Now, what I am saying, the reason why I'm saying that your social environment and your

01:37:51.940 education has some bearing on how you can exercise your free will is that when people

01:37:56.600 are fed a bunch of BS as knowledge by the schools, by the media, by Hollywood, by everything,

01:38:03.660 then that is, let me just finish my point.

01:38:05.100 Then when your knowledge base that you are, the intellectual aspect that you're basing

01:38:10.240 your free action on is compromised and false, then you are going to will based on a lie and

01:38:16.660 you are, your very ability to act in a rational way is going to be compromised by your experience

01:38:23.460 in your environment.

01:38:24.480 But you are still responsible for the decisions that you make.

01:38:28.860 And that's my point.

01:38:31.600 I don't, I don't like, I just don't like excuses.

01:38:34.420 I don't like blaming everybody.

01:38:36.340 I, I, I think.

01:38:37.300 I just wonder if, yeah.

01:38:38.320 I think, I think, I think that women, you just.

01:38:40.980 I think you're, I think you're overcomplicating it a little bit.

01:38:43.400 No, I, I think, I, I think I am articulating what you said, which was true actually, but

01:38:49.060 then you reached a non sequitur conclusion, which is you said, actually, yeah, our environment

01:38:54.220 does kind of.

01:38:55.200 I didn't say it doesn't, I don't say it doesn't play an effect.

01:38:57.880 I'm saying that you're responsible for the choices you make.

01:39:00.920 And ultimately that's, that's, that's, yeah, that's my point.

01:39:04.220 And so when you're constantly blaming everybody else for the decisions that you make, and I see

01:39:08.680 that a lot with women, I see it's the government's fault, it's your school system's fault, even

01:39:13.740 though, I mean, really the school system's run by women.

01:39:18.300 Well, teachers, teachers are, are mostly women.

01:39:21.720 Yeah.

01:39:22.040 I mean, I guess, sure.

01:39:23.060 Ultimately the country's run by a fellow named Joe Biden.

01:39:25.760 Women make 80%, women, women make 80% of consumer buying decisions.

01:39:28.180 So the media is catering to women.

01:39:31.220 Yeah, sure.

01:39:31.840 I'm not denying any of that.

01:39:33.140 I'm not really denying any of these things.

01:39:34.760 I just, I'm confused because you, we seem to have arrived at this.

01:39:39.100 You seem to be contradicting yourself, but you've, where, where am I contradicting?

01:39:43.300 By acknowledging that the ways that we get knowledge will affect the way that we can

01:39:50.000 exercise our free will, but then saying that the ways that we get knowledge, which are by

01:39:53.860 definition environmental, don't actually affect our exercise.

01:39:58.760 But you can also get knowledge through life experience and like watching people that are

01:40:02.700 older than you.

01:40:02.940 Right, but you don't experience life alone.

01:40:04.280 You experience life in community, which is my point.

01:40:06.820 Yeah, well, my point, I'm not trying to overcomplicate this, is just that women are responsible.

01:40:11.980 I think we're undercomplicating it, unfortunately, which is why you've reached an erroneous conclusion.

01:40:15.360 No, I think that women were responsible for the choices that we make.

01:40:19.640 And I'm just not really into, I'm really not into, I just, I'm just not into, yeah, go ahead.

01:40:25.080 I see what you're trying to do, I just say, regardless of how they got there, if sin is a sin, it's still sin.

01:40:30.920 Regardless of if the culture tells you it's okay to do, at the end of the day, it's still sin, you still have to answer for that concept.

01:40:36.760 So what our friend Glenn has mentioned here, off camera, is he made the point, an apt point for this discussion, which is that a sin is a sin, whether you want to do it or not.

01:40:47.760 But that actually is not the traditional teaching of the church.

01:40:50.260 There are certain Protestant denominations that say that that's true.

01:40:53.160 But the traditional teaching of the church is still the teaching of Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodoxy, is that there are different types of sin.

01:40:59.640 There is venial sin, and there is mortal sin.

01:41:02.740 And what's the difference?

01:41:04.500 The difference is that a mortal sin is committed with full knowledge and with your consent.

01:41:11.780 So the reason—

01:41:12.760 Do women not know they're getting rid of the dads in the home?

01:41:15.200 I think women are fed a bunch of lies by our modern liberal feminist culture.

01:41:20.100 And it doesn't obviate the fact that what they're doing is often sinful, but it does create an important distinction.

01:41:26.580 And the reason—I really don't mean to be pedantic on this point, but this is like the fundamental distinction between a liberal individualist worldview and a more conservative traditional classical worldview is what free will is.

01:41:39.280 And the liberals on the left and the right believe that freedom is the ability to do whatever you want whenever you want to do it, and the conservatives believe that freedom is doing what you ought to do.

01:41:47.640 So what sin are women not responsible for?

01:41:51.000 What do you mean?

01:41:51.700 Like what—I'm just—I'm confused at your point.

01:41:55.260 Like what sin are women not responsible for?

01:41:56.840 I'm saying there's a—I'm saying that—

01:41:58.840 So are you saying they're venial sins?

01:42:00.780 I'm saying that there is a distinction between venial and mortal sin.

01:42:03.500 Okay.

01:42:03.800 I'm suggesting that knowledge and consent to sin are integral parts of it.

01:42:09.480 I'm just trying to apply what you're saying to the analogy.

01:42:12.220 So if women are choosing to get STDs, abortions, be single mothers, alienate children from their dads, you know, I'll tell you exactly what I'm saying.

01:42:21.280 Where in this process are they sort of responsible?

01:42:27.100 When women have been raised their whole lives, maybe by divorced parents, raised their whole lives to be told to pursue a career rather than family, to go on the birth control pill at age 12, to go to college and study some stupid nonsense and get a $200,000 student loan as a result of that.

01:42:44.020 That there's no such thing as right and wrong.

01:42:46.880 There's no such thing as virtue.

01:42:47.940 You just got to go get your bag.

01:42:49.420 And maybe you're going to end up on OnlyFans because you can make more money doing that and you can't waitressing.

01:42:52.900 When they're told that for their entire lives, it's not that they don't bear any moral responsibility, but it is greatly reduced compared to someone who has proper knowledge and the exercise of their will.

01:43:04.300 Oh, see, I've been on the other side of this.

01:43:07.080 What's the other side?

01:43:07.760 No, the other side is—it doesn't matter.

01:43:10.180 No, because, again, it's like you tell women these things, younger women, but women are going to do what they want to do.

01:43:17.560 I guess I'm just confused because previously you said that it's all different now because of the social conditions have changed.

01:43:23.000 But now you're saying it doesn't actually change.

01:43:23.920 No, no, I'm saying there's more freedom.

01:43:25.980 I'm saying there's more freedom for women to do what they want to do.

01:43:29.280 And I think that when you have the most freedom—

01:43:30.960 By the liberal definition of freedom.

01:43:32.100 I think when you have the most choice, you see what people truly want to do.

01:43:37.100 Not what they say they want to do, but what they choose to do.

01:43:41.620 And how do people come to their desires?

01:43:44.460 I know, we're going to go back to Google, huh?

01:43:46.960 No.

01:43:47.420 So I'm trying to understand—

01:43:48.520 Part of it is through habit.

01:43:50.060 You know, if you get a guy who is a—hunter bite.

01:43:53.660 You get a guy who's like a drug addict, Daryl, right?

01:43:56.000 And you put him in a room with a bunch of hookers and blow and a cello.

01:44:01.720 And you say you can do whatever you want.

01:44:02.840 You can go play Bach on the cello, or you can go hang out with the hookers and the blow.

01:44:07.860 Hunter Biden, or a guy like him, probably not going to pick the cello.

01:44:11.280 But if you go to a guy who's relatively upright and who, you know, has cultivated virtue and believes that actually, you know,

01:44:18.540 if he commits a lot of sins, he's going to just burn in hell for eternity and he, you know, loves God and everything.

01:44:23.100 And you put him in the room with the hookers and the blow and the cello.

01:44:25.800 I'm not saying a hundred times out of a hundred he's going to pick the cello.

01:44:28.760 But a lot of times, that guy's going to pick the cello.

01:44:32.120 And so those two guys have the same choice available to them.

01:44:36.160 But their wills are inclined toward different things.

01:44:39.100 But you're still responsible for your sin.

01:44:41.660 Yes.

01:44:42.340 Okay, that's it.

01:44:43.740 Yeah.

01:44:44.040 That's what I don't—I just—I'm not really in—I just don't—I don't think coddling women helps us.

01:44:49.080 I don't think coddling, but I think addressing social reality.

01:44:51.980 I don't—no.

01:44:53.280 I think it's just a bunch of excuses.

01:44:56.460 I think as a woman, I know women in the same environments that picked completely different things.

01:45:01.660 So that's my opinion.

01:45:02.680 You can disagree, but I know women.

01:45:05.040 Yeah, right.

01:45:05.060 People are different.

01:45:05.320 I know women, yeah.

01:45:06.220 I know women that, you know, they're in the same family.

01:45:09.240 One chose sex work or something similar.

01:45:11.980 One chose to be a housewife.

01:45:13.360 Same family.

01:45:14.060 Right.

01:45:14.260 But if you're saying, like, to the point you opened with, when you say, look, it's different

01:45:18.800 for the younger than 30 women or whatever, it's totally—because the social circumstances

01:45:21.740 have changed.

01:45:22.080 I agree with you.

01:45:22.960 But then the thing that has changed is not the women and the nature of the women.

01:45:29.480 The thing that has changed is the social circumstances.

01:45:31.960 And so the place you're placing the blame, even you, as you describe it, is in those changing

01:45:37.460 laws and customs and norms, not on the nature of women.

01:45:40.620 No, no, I still think you're responsible, but I don't think the laws are fair to men.

01:45:47.220 So you would—and you would change the laws, but you don't blame the laws for the problem,

01:45:51.840 but you would change them anyway, because there's a way.

01:45:53.540 Well, you know, if I can legally kill someone, should I?

01:45:56.720 It depends the circumstance.

01:45:58.600 But in general.

01:46:00.540 What's in general?

01:46:01.220 I mean, if he's, like, threatening your family, perhaps.

01:46:03.520 If he's just—you don't like the cut of his jib, probably not.

01:46:05.660 Yeah, but you know what I'm asking, okay?

01:46:07.240 I don't know what you're asking.

01:46:08.600 Pearl, I promise you, I do not know what you're asking.

01:46:10.200 No, but that's what I'm saying, is, like, just because you can do something, it doesn't

01:46:13.860 mean you should.

01:46:15.660 It depends what—

01:46:16.400 I don't—

01:46:17.080 I don't—like, what's your—I'm really just confused at what your point is.

01:46:21.600 So are women responsible for their sin, or they're not responsible?

01:46:24.540 I think culpability for sin is contingent on knowledge and free consent, which depend upon,

01:46:34.500 to a large degree, how one is educated.

01:46:37.640 And the question of education is very important here, because the begetting and education of

01:46:41.500 children is the primary purpose of marriage, which is a natural institution.

01:46:45.340 And so it seems to me that the idea that you are furthering and advocating, which cuts

01:46:50.920 against the practice of marriage today, unravels all of these things.

01:46:55.440 It doesn't cut against the practice of marriage.

01:46:57.640 I advocate that the laws should change.

01:46:59.700 Right.

01:47:00.020 And until the laws change?

01:47:02.120 Men have to decide for themselves.

01:47:04.180 I think you're skirting the issue.

01:47:05.400 I think that men are tired of being told what to do by women.

01:47:10.600 So I think every man has to decide—do you disagree that every man should decide for

01:47:16.220 himself what makes sense in his life?

01:47:18.040 I do.

01:47:18.520 I think men ought to do what's right.

01:47:20.060 Okay.

01:47:20.540 And you know what's right.

01:47:22.180 I hope I do.

01:47:23.100 I hope I've cultivated my faculties of reason and moral conscience to such a degree that

01:47:28.040 they can correspond with God's grace and basically lead me right.

01:47:32.260 Yeah.

01:47:32.680 I mean, it almost sounds like you're playing God.

01:47:35.400 No, but I hope that I'm cooperating with God, and I'm a rational creature made in

01:47:38.880 the image and likeness of God, and that fact is borne out in my reason, which is what we're

01:47:44.620 supposedly here to do.

01:47:46.160 And the fact, Pearl, that you keep backing away from using our reason to come to certain

01:47:51.320 judgments about how men ought to behave and about good and bad and right and wrong seems

01:47:55.360 to me a denial of what is basically the premise of any conversation, which is that we

01:48:01.560 can know something about reality and come to conclusions about it.

01:48:04.060 And I think you do come to those conclusions, but then you evade the responsibility for it

01:48:07.780 by saying, I just tell men to do what they want.

01:48:09.000 No, I think that facts don't care about your religion.

01:48:12.600 So I think facts don't care about the way you feel about them.

01:48:15.540 What do you think a fact is?

01:48:16.380 I think that...

01:48:16.880 What do you think a fact is?

01:48:18.620 That women are paid to leave marriages.

01:48:20.900 That's just a fact.

01:48:22.800 Oh.

01:48:23.280 Oh, I thought you were facts.

01:48:24.120 Yeah, and so, you know, I mean, that's just a fact.

01:48:28.460 And the way you feel about it doesn't change the way it is.

01:48:32.040 Actually, the way that I feel, which I hope, I like to think I've arrived at that through

01:48:36.880 reasons, I think it's tethered to something, you know, real, does affect the way that I

01:48:40.460 behave.

01:48:41.420 And the way that I behave does, to some degree, affect the social circumstances in which we

01:48:46.300 all live.

01:48:46.980 So in a way, actually, you know, a friend of mine says facts don't care about your feelings.

01:48:51.740 But politics largely cares about your feelings.

01:48:54.000 And your feelings are cultivated through virtuous and vicious habits.

01:48:58.680 And being selfish and sleeping around and not getting married and not having kids is vicious.

01:49:03.380 I don't say men should sleep around.

01:49:03.800 And getting married is very virtuous.

01:49:05.500 I don't say that men should sleep around.

01:49:07.080 But you say they shouldn't get married if you were to give advice, which you don't.

01:49:10.580 I say that men should be extremely cautious when getting married.

01:49:15.180 I say they should vet women heavily.

01:49:18.600 And if there are not enough wives, that might not be the way that they end up going.

01:49:23.300 So what should they do then?

01:49:26.580 It's so interesting.

01:49:27.840 It always goes back to that, like me telling them what to do.

01:49:31.420 Every guy's got to decide for himself.

01:49:33.580 In Pearl World, which we were living in Pearl World earlier, then what would men do if they

01:49:38.060 begged you for advice?

01:49:38.860 I would say go talk to a preacher, your pastor, a preacher.

01:49:49.220 I thought facts don't care about your religion.

01:49:51.860 Or your father.

01:49:54.340 Or, look, I just don't.

01:49:58.380 Again, I'm not in the business of telling men what to do.

01:50:01.940 And that's just not, you know.

01:50:03.460 But I think you kind of are.

01:50:05.120 Not really.

01:50:05.860 That really, I just don't think.

01:50:09.060 Do you have any?

01:50:10.880 Because it depends on the guy.

01:50:13.020 How do, you know, because you would first ask, like, what their situation is.

01:50:18.000 Every person has a different situation.

01:50:20.080 But every man we're talking about is a man.

01:50:22.560 There are some things that are common to men, like human nature.

01:50:25.880 And marriage, being a natural institution, is something that is common to men throughout

01:50:29.360 all of history.

01:50:29.840 But it's not the way we do it today.

01:50:32.500 Some of us.

01:50:33.100 Marriage today is not marriage anymore.

01:50:36.140 It's not.

01:50:36.780 It's not marriage when.

01:50:37.880 I think mine is.

01:50:38.820 It's not.

01:50:39.520 Marriage today is not marriage anymore.

01:50:41.780 What do you mean by that?

01:50:42.520 When the average marriage is seven to eight years.

01:50:45.300 Oh.

01:50:45.500 When 90, when women leave 70 to 80% of the time.

01:50:51.080 When women can file abuse or can accuse you of abuse on the way out the door.

01:50:55.760 When women can put you on child support.

01:50:57.280 When women can put you on alimony.

01:50:58.420 There are many attacks on marriage.

01:50:59.480 It is not marriage anymore.

01:51:00.580 I totally agree.

01:51:01.240 And we're confused about marriage.

01:51:03.860 I totally agree.

01:51:04.180 And so, again, you know, you're, I have a hard time telling men to sign up for an institution

01:51:13.800 almost blindly.

01:51:16.640 I don't think blind.

01:51:17.500 I think they should do it.

01:51:18.320 With the consequences that come with it.

01:51:21.020 Don't you think women.

01:51:21.480 And I've seen men on the other side of it.

01:51:24.660 Men are nine times more likely to commit suicide after divorce.

01:51:28.300 Yeah, divorce is all.

01:51:28.960 They're, they're, and it ruins men's lives every day.

01:51:33.860 But we don't just, that's not something we disagree on.

01:51:36.320 But what I, sometimes it sounds like you guys downplay it by how.

01:51:41.120 I don't think so.

01:51:41.620 I just think we, you know, you're, you're denying that you're advising men to do anything,

01:51:45.980 even though you're saying it would be a good strategy.

01:51:47.520 No, I don't, I don't tell men what to do.

01:51:49.900 One man might find that Christian virgin chick.

01:51:52.860 Sure.

01:51:53.140 In the middle of nowhere that goes to Latin mass.

01:51:55.380 One man might not find one close to him at all.

01:51:59.600 One, and even, I've even, I know someone that runs a matchmaking service for like Latin mass.

01:52:04.880 Right.

01:52:05.380 No, they're having the same problems.

01:52:08.140 And this is for the Latin community.

01:52:10.060 I know someone that runs one.

01:52:11.560 He tells me the same thing.

01:52:12.660 There's too many men.

01:52:13.500 There's not enough women in this specific one.

01:52:16.100 Yeah, yeah.

01:52:16.500 And, and the women are a bit too high of standards, a bit delusional in what they ask.

01:52:22.500 Have you ever been to the female delusion calculator?

01:52:24.820 Yeah, but my point is, so you're going into the churches, you're finding the same problems

01:52:29.900 outside of the churches.

01:52:31.020 Maybe some of them are a little slower.

01:52:33.020 Some of them are a little slower to hit, right?

01:52:35.320 Like Latin mass, I would say is one of the better ones, but there's still a record number

01:52:39.800 of annulments.

01:52:40.600 We still see more liberal things.

01:52:42.360 Again, not among the trads, but, but in the Catholic church broadly, the annulments have

01:52:45.620 one of those.

01:52:46.060 Correct.

01:52:47.120 And so my point is, you know, it's going to be tough to convince men to join these

01:52:53.640 things when even the churches seem to be going left.

01:52:56.260 Yeah, I agree.

01:52:56.740 And the churches are teaching egalitarianism.

01:53:00.100 Some are.

01:53:00.760 You know, I go to, I went to, and I know a lot of these are anecdotes, but I just, when

01:53:05.640 you start to interview as many people as I have, you start to see patterns.

01:53:09.580 And, you know, I'm hearing from men that the church makes their wives worse, not better,

01:53:14.640 because they're being told in Bible, like they're being told in, in, you know, their,

01:53:20.260 their Bible studies that they're women led, you know, and they get all these.

01:53:24.680 Peretics and schismatics have created problems for all of history.

01:53:26.720 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:53:27.460 But, but I don't think this, the church is a fail safe in a society that pays women to

01:53:34.860 leave.

01:53:35.200 No, there's risk in everything.

01:53:36.240 But, but to your, to your point, Pearl, you, you've said that, look, you're not prescribing

01:53:40.980 anything.

01:53:41.320 You're just observing how things are and the men don't want to get married and, right.

01:53:44.780 I guess what I'm observing is that men still like women, even with all the kind of weird

01:53:49.500 rainbow stuff, men still like women, women still like men, and they're still going to

01:53:53.640 get together and they're still going to desire children, or at the very least, they're going

01:53:56.700 to do the things that lead to children.

01:53:58.520 And so that's going to happen, whether you advise them to do that or advise them not to

01:54:03.440 do that or whatever.

01:54:04.020 And, and so in, in that case, don't we need to deal with what that institution ought to

01:54:11.820 look like rather than say, sit on your hands until we change.

01:54:14.500 No, I say fix the institution.

01:54:16.540 That should be the number one thing because men are not going to return to, people are

01:54:21.640 not going to return to marriage until you make the institution more fair.

01:54:24.920 Well, what they'll do is they'll return.

01:54:26.100 It doesn't matter what you say.

01:54:27.280 It doesn't matter what I say.

01:54:28.480 You guys have been preaching marriage for a decade and the rates of marriage have still

01:54:32.320 been going down.

01:54:33.280 Why?

01:54:33.700 Because the cost is too high and the quality of women is too low.

01:54:37.340 How do you fix it?

01:54:38.440 Well, they're just-

01:54:39.200 You increase the quality of the women.

01:54:40.820 You say, stop being fat.

01:54:42.460 That's the number one.

01:54:43.960 Don't, don't go on only things.

01:54:45.320 It might be on the list.

01:54:46.020 I don't know if it's number one.

01:54:46.860 I mean, for men, that's like the number one thing.

01:54:48.920 I wouldn't say it's fine.

01:54:49.900 Okay.

01:54:50.400 I'm blessed with a thin wife.

01:54:51.640 Not now because she has a child in her.

01:54:53.320 Okay, but, but you understand what I'm saying.

01:54:55.860 And until you, you lower the risk for men, the, the utopia you're asking for

01:55:02.160 isn't going to return.

01:55:02.840 It's not a utopia.

01:55:03.860 I'm describing the human condition for all of history.

01:55:05.500 Okay, but, but what you're asking for, the families will not return.

01:55:09.140 And so I'm almost like trying to, to plead with the trad cons.

01:55:13.120 Like, like you are not going to get anywhere shaming men for not getting married.

01:55:18.600 The only way that you were going to see progress is by making the institution more fair for men

01:55:25.200 and giving fathers access to their children.

01:55:27.640 But when you say make the institution more fair for men, you're saying make divorce a

01:55:31.320 little nicer for men.

01:55:32.400 I, I, I think divorce is the problem.

01:55:34.440 No, I, I agree with you.

01:55:36.800 I, I don't believe, like, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't believe in divorce.

01:55:41.260 Okay.

01:55:41.500 So if we could ban divorce tomorrow, great.

01:55:43.820 But I think, I think for the time being, so if we, we could do that, let's go.

01:55:48.460 Yeah.

01:55:49.040 Right.

01:55:49.400 But, but for the time being, it's like, okay, at least, you know, the, the, there should

01:55:57.680 be mandatory DNA testing at birth.

01:56:00.040 No.

01:56:00.260 I don't know why you, okay.

01:56:02.060 Because it's calling my wife a whore to do that.

01:56:04.800 I mean, it's ridiculous.

01:56:05.960 Why?

01:56:06.260 Okay.

01:56:06.480 Because the, the assumption of the, first of all, mandatory, good grief.

01:56:09.720 But the, the premise of it is that my wife is sleeping around.

01:56:12.720 Okay.

01:56:13.060 So, so the woman, the woman feels icky for a little bit, but then.

01:56:18.280 The man feels icky.

01:56:19.040 I would feel quite icky.

01:56:20.160 But, but, but, wait, wait.

01:56:20.920 The woman feels icky for a little bit, fine.

01:56:23.340 Maybe the man feels icky.

01:56:24.720 Certainly he would.

01:56:25.300 But, but, but, but, but it prevents, it prevents men from being put on child support and raising

01:56:31.280 kids that aren't theirs.

01:56:32.580 You're saying they're married.

01:56:32.960 And if people want to opt out of it, fine.

01:56:35.240 Fine.

01:56:35.480 You can opt out.

01:56:36.280 Okay.

01:56:36.300 So it's not mandatory.

01:56:37.360 But.

01:56:37.760 It's voluntary.

01:56:38.760 But there it is voluntary.

01:56:40.120 I, I, I, I think it would be better if it was mandatory.

01:56:43.740 I think that's a better.

01:56:44.480 So then the men can opt out.

01:56:46.020 Oh my gosh.

01:56:46.440 What are you, are.

01:56:48.280 I'm just trying to figure out what you're saying.

01:56:49.320 No, I, okay.

01:56:50.220 I would say mandatory DNA testing at birth.

01:56:52.840 That, that I think would be better.

01:56:55.720 But.

01:56:56.200 Even though the men don't want it.

01:56:57.240 Look at, look at.

01:56:57.760 So you're telling a man now.

01:56:59.040 You're contradicting what a man has to say.

01:57:00.820 Because you haven't been in that situation.

01:57:03.120 Do you know what I mean?

01:57:03.500 I've been in birthing rooms a couple times.

01:57:04.900 Why do you guys, why do you guys make light of like situations that.

01:57:08.480 Pearl, I have been in the situation and you have not.

01:57:11.120 I've been in the birthing room twice.

01:57:12.580 No, I'm talking, no, no.

01:57:13.720 I'm talking about, about a man raising a child that's not hit.

01:57:17.280 Oh yeah.

01:57:17.520 It's not an uncommon thing.

01:57:18.640 At least one of my kids looks like me.

01:57:19.880 The other one looks a lot like my mom.

01:57:21.040 No, no, but.

01:57:21.840 Okay.

01:57:22.220 But we're trying to make jokes, but this stuff is serious, Michael.

01:57:25.500 Yeah.

01:57:25.700 Like this is serious.

01:57:26.460 I guess, I guess the implication though is that, you know, in 2% or whatever, you know,

01:57:34.180 where the woman has slept, cheated or something.

01:57:36.380 And again, you know, we're bringing in lots of different demographics and circumstances here.

01:57:40.540 But in that case that what, then the parents get divorced.

01:57:43.120 I thought you just said we're going to ban divorce.

01:57:45.060 No, no, no.

01:57:47.700 Well, okay.

01:57:48.360 If she's committing fraud, then yeah.

01:57:50.840 She's committing adultery.

01:57:52.240 Do you think adultery is grounds for divorce?

01:57:54.180 I thought you said we're going to ban divorce.

01:57:56.460 This is what I mean by the liberal kind of thing that's creeping into you.

01:58:00.520 Okay.

01:58:00.540 I'll give, I'll give a couple exceptions, you know, but I personally, I don't know if banning

01:58:08.900 divorce, I think you're trying to railroad me off of the real issues.

01:58:13.860 I'm not.

01:58:14.180 I'm trying to figure out what you're articulating and you're contradicting yourself.

01:58:17.760 I'm not, I'm not contradicting myself.

01:58:19.980 You just did.

01:58:20.500 You said we'll have mandatory testing.

01:58:21.880 We won't have mandatory.

01:58:22.600 We'll ban divorce.

01:58:23.420 We won't ban divorce.

01:58:24.100 I was trying to, I was trying to compromise here.

01:58:26.460 Because I, you said you felt icky.

01:58:28.260 I said, fine, Michael Knowles will get the note.

01:58:30.160 I get the exception.

01:58:30.960 Yeah, you can be the exception.

01:58:32.140 All right.

01:58:32.460 Well, that's good.

01:58:33.100 I'm happy to be an exception.

01:58:33.940 But my, my whole point is that, you know, this stuff is serious, Michael, and you are

01:58:40.360 not going to see marriage return until you start enacting policies that protect men

01:58:45.800 from the institution of marriage as it is today.

01:58:48.600 Oh, sure.

01:58:49.200 Yeah.

01:58:49.340 But we don't disagree on that, right?

01:58:51.560 Then what, then what's the, what's the argument for?

01:58:53.620 What marriage is, why it's still good to do, no matter what the policies are, why man

01:58:58.880 is inclined toward it.

01:58:59.960 No, any policy?

01:59:01.760 Yeah, I think marriage is always good.

01:59:03.440 So, any, any policy?

01:59:05.300 Yeah, I think any country in the world at any time in history, it's basically good to get

01:59:08.600 married.

01:59:08.820 So, so, so a guy, so if they make a policy that, I'm trying to think of something crazy.

01:59:19.280 I mean, even the policies that are today, it's like, you know, that if, so really any policy.

01:59:33.020 Wait, what?

01:59:35.000 What?

01:59:39.360 So the question for, because I have a microphone on, was if my son were married and his wife

01:59:58.900 cheated on him and had a kid by another man, would I support my son divorcing?

02:00:04.420 I do not support divorce under any circumstances.

02:00:07.880 So, yeah, I think what, yeah, I...

02:00:09.540 He doesn't say that, but the question, so the question that was brought up from off camera

02:00:22.820 was what about the so-called acceptive clause in the Gospel of St. Matthew, where our Lord

02:00:28.040 says, what God has joined, let no man separate, except for the case of porneia.

02:00:32.020 And what's curious about this so-called acceptive clause, which in recent centuries, some Protestants

02:00:39.040 have interpreted to mean that if your wife cheats on you, you can divorce her, but which

02:00:43.240 had not been understood that way for the vast majority of the history of the church, and

02:00:46.860 certainly still is the case in the Catholic Church and elsewhere.

02:00:50.180 I guess one way to understand that, and that apparent contradiction with the other synoptic

02:00:56.540 Gospels, which do not have the so-called acceptive clause, is to remember that St.

02:01:00.320 Matthew is writing for a Jewish audience, and there was a live debate at the time over

02:01:06.680 the exception, what type of adulterous exception that would imply.

02:01:13.020 And so one way of understanding Matthew chapter 19 in the acceptive clause is to say, actually

02:01:17.540 what he's saying is, let's ignore this whole sort of debate that's taking place between

02:01:21.900 various Jewish groups and just get to the heart of the matter.

02:01:25.220 But furthermore, the fact that you see it in the other Gospels, not repeated with the

02:01:29.360 acceptive clause, would seem to bolster the traditional view of the church, understood

02:01:33.520 in the magisterium and the deposit of faith, and articulated by the victor of Christ on earth

02:01:36.980 that, no, you don't get to divorce just because you cheat on your wife.

02:01:40.480 Also because just at a natural level, that would create a perverse incentive such that if

02:01:44.720 two people don't like each other, there's an incentive to just go out and cheat, and

02:01:47.800 then you can dissolve the marriage.

02:01:49.140 Okay, so if he's raising a kid that's not his, you would support them staying together?

02:01:54.180 I oppose divorce in all circumstances.

02:01:57.260 That's a conservative view, not a liberal view.

02:01:59.000 Yeah, I guess maybe I'm liberal in that one.

02:02:02.120 No, I think you're liberal in a lot of ways, and I think the red pill is liberal in a lot

02:02:05.620 of ways, which is why they're ironically just the flip side of the feminists.

02:02:10.140 Well, I disagree with that because, again, you guys are the ones pushing men into a feminist

02:02:16.360 institution, which marriage today is.

02:02:20.520 And again, you're not going to see marriage return.

02:02:23.700 Girl, marriage has been around long before Mary Wollstonecraft in feminism.

02:02:27.240 It's a universal institution that has been around as long as human beings have been around.

02:02:32.520 I think it's a little silly to call it a feminist institution.

02:02:35.140 Well, the way it's run today is.

02:02:36.700 The way it's run today, it's seven to eight years, and the man doesn't get access.

02:02:43.180 I know, but no one's talking about you.

02:02:44.740 I'm talking about me.

02:02:46.120 But that's the point.

02:02:47.300 We're just talking about me and you, Pearl.

02:02:49.260 You know, society is just me and you and everybody else.

02:02:52.680 Right, but that's the whole point.

02:02:55.020 And I just, you know, we could deal with shoulds the way the world should be.

02:03:00.240 And I'm saying the way it is now.

02:03:01.980 And I'm saying the way it is now, marriage will not return until you start lowering the

02:03:07.820 risk for men.

02:03:08.620 I suppose the distinction here is you're painting my view as being some sort of utopian prescription.

02:03:17.060 But to the contrary, I am describing the way that the world is and has been.

02:03:22.080 Marriage is a natural fact.

02:03:25.220 It is, it has been a natural fact for all of human history everywhere in the world.

02:03:29.280 And so it seems to me quite the opposite, that what you are prescribing for men, though

02:03:34.620 you won't take responsibility for advising it, is that men avoid this natural institution,

02:03:39.240 that no matter how much you advise them against it, they're not going to avoid it.

02:03:41.880 I don't advise men to, like, why do you keep putting words in my mouth?

02:03:45.840 That's not what I said.

02:03:46.840 I think it is.

02:03:47.900 Okay, it's not.

02:03:49.620 Every guy should decide for himself.

02:03:52.200 That's what I say.

02:03:54.040 But that's a different, to say whiskey is tasty and every man should decide if he wants to have

02:03:59.020 what do you think the solution is moving forward for men?

02:04:02.540 For men, I think at the political level, it would be to reform the divorce laws.

02:04:07.240 How?

02:04:07.440 And to ban no-fault divorce, to disincentivize divorce as a financial and political matter,

02:04:16.860 to eradicate feminism from public life entirely, the whole preposterous ideology at every single

02:04:23.580 level, to overrule the Obergefell decision, which preposterously redefined marriage and

02:04:30.840 took sexual complementarity out of it, which is absurd, to, once you did that, there's more

02:04:38.520 to do, but once you accomplish that at the political level, you would go a long way toward

02:04:42.180 fixing the problem.

02:04:43.160 Then I would encourage a return of traditional religion in public life because not only is

02:04:49.980 a society not secular, but it never can be because all human conflict ultimately is theological

02:04:54.100 and everybody's got to serve somebody.

02:04:55.880 So either we're going to worship the God who's like really God, or we're going to worship

02:04:59.600 the God of money or the God of casual sex or the God of individualism as the liberals want

02:05:04.880 us to do, and I think as a lot of the red pill wants us to do.

02:05:08.880 So I would restore traditional religion in public life and the religion that built our country

02:05:14.040 and our civilization.

02:05:14.760 And then at the individual level, I would, having now, I've now restored families, which

02:05:19.760 is, I'm not pleased to say.

02:05:20.820 Wow, good job.

02:05:21.540 I would recommend that individuals behave in accordance with right reason and virtue.

02:05:28.560 So you've already gotten rid of the liberalism and the feminism.

02:05:31.660 You've gotten rid of this subjectivism and the kind of language you use, which is just do

02:05:34.800 whatever you want, man.

02:05:35.680 I don't think people ought to do whatever they want.

02:05:37.220 I think they ought to do what is right and that will cultivate their desires, their very desires

02:05:41.600 to incline them, imperfectly because it's a fallen world, but largely toward things that

02:05:46.460 are good and conducive to their flourishing, which is how we lived until relatively recently.

02:05:50.880 So I don't disagree with any of that.

02:05:52.860 Yeah.

02:05:53.460 My question is, what should men do in the meantime?

02:05:57.900 They ought to, well, be politically involved.

02:06:00.920 I don't advocate an individual political quietism.

02:06:03.640 They ought to be politically involved and elect good candidates and things like that.

02:06:06.300 So they ought to, at a practical level, go to church, work hard, put away the porn, don't

02:06:14.940 do like drugs, do things you ought to do, date in a way that is virtuous, and then get

02:06:22.620 married and have children and be fruitful and multiply because if we can't out-argue the

02:06:26.880 liberals, we might at least out-breed them.

02:06:28.400 And what do they do if women don't want to get on their program?

02:06:35.020 Pearl, I guess.

02:06:36.300 You have a dimmer view of men than I do.

02:06:39.240 I think men can be very persuasive, and I think that men can lead women in bad ways

02:06:45.920 and in good ways.

02:06:46.800 Okay.

02:06:47.460 And so I would recommend that men take a leadership role as we once had in the family and in society.

02:06:52.380 Can men lead women that don't want to follow?

02:06:55.600 Yeah.

02:06:56.640 Okay, I disagree.

02:06:58.440 I don't think men can lead a woman that doesn't want to follow them.

02:07:01.940 I think that's a recipe for disaster.

02:07:04.020 I think that will and desire are shaped by all sorts of things, including the persuasion

02:07:08.320 of good men.

02:07:09.860 Okay.

02:07:10.840 Yeah, I don't think you can lead a woman that doesn't want to follow you.

02:07:15.120 So I think that's a recipe for disaster, personally.

02:07:19.440 But I think until, again, until the quality of the wives go up and the risk goes down,

02:07:26.040 you won't see.

02:07:26.120 How's the quality going to go up?

02:07:26.940 I told you step one, the treadmill.

02:07:34.260 I mean, that's the first thing guys look at, right?

02:07:36.620 Treadmill.

02:07:37.280 Anything else?

02:07:37.840 No, not being fat.

02:07:41.220 What else?

02:07:43.280 I mean, I think women, it's better if we save our virginities for marriage.

02:07:46.880 Yeah.

02:07:47.460 You know?

02:07:48.160 Yeah, it's better, for sure.

02:07:48.640 I would say not accusing your husband of abuse, taking the kids and getting fat after you

02:07:55.060 get the ring.

02:07:55.720 Yeah, that's true.

02:07:56.320 But they've already gotten married at that point.

02:07:57.420 I thought we were trying to figure out how they even got married.

02:07:58.720 Oh, yeah, yeah, sorry.

02:07:59.880 But that would be good, too.

02:08:01.060 I agree, yes.

02:08:02.120 You shouldn't do that.

02:08:03.280 It's untrue.

02:08:04.220 Yeah.

02:08:04.320 So, and I think advocating for divorce reform would be a good step, so.

02:08:10.720 I totally agree.

02:08:11.600 And I really like that last point, because it acknowledges that our behavior is conditioned

02:08:17.800 by our circumstances.

02:08:20.440 No, I think you're responsible for your behavior.

02:08:23.360 Then why would we change the divorce laws?

02:08:26.540 So, you can stop paying women to leave?

02:08:31.560 I thought we were trying to figure out how to get women to get married.

02:08:34.320 That was where we were, right?

02:08:37.340 Well, yeah, but then.

02:08:38.440 So, why would changing the divorce laws affect that?

02:08:41.420 Well, it would change the incentive structure.

02:08:43.760 But I still think you're, it's like, okay, you could be paid to do something wrong, but

02:08:47.980 you're still responsible if you do it.

02:08:49.680 Sure, but you're more inclined to do it if the temptation is strong enough.

02:08:52.520 And if your oral fiber is weaker.

02:08:54.720 Yeah.

02:08:55.200 Yeah.

02:08:55.380 Yeah, fair enough.

02:08:56.260 I agree with that.

02:08:56.960 So, we sort of agree, I think.

02:08:58.800 I think we broadly agree.

02:09:00.220 Yeah.

02:09:00.380 The only place in which we really disagree, I think, is that, as you've admitted, you

02:09:07.400 adopt a little bit more of a liberal worldview.

02:09:10.420 Whether that's because you say, well, it's just the way things are, man, or because you

02:09:14.280 exalt the individual and the free choice, just choose to do whatever you want.

02:09:18.700 I would say I describe the world as it is, where you describe it how you would like it

02:09:25.060 to be.

02:09:25.720 And I would say the exact same thing.

02:09:26.760 And I would say I deal in is, and you, I would say, deal in ought.

02:09:30.800 But I think oughts derive from is, because I think that nature has an end.

02:09:35.960 So, I would say I am describing the world as it is.

02:09:38.880 Obviously, it's my opinion.

02:09:39.860 And I think you're describing a liberal, utopian, literally utopian view of people.

02:09:47.240 How is it a liberal utopia to say that men should have access to their children?

02:09:53.540 Because it creates an idol out of the individual will and autonomy, which is something.

02:09:59.400 How?

02:09:59.760 By saying that men should have.

02:10:00.580 Because you're saying men ought to do whatever they want.

02:10:02.620 And I'm saying this should be right.

02:10:03.540 By saying men should be cautious.

02:10:06.560 No, well, I'm referring to a different statement of yours, which is men ought to choose whatever

02:10:10.780 they want to do.

02:10:12.060 By follow, but I always say by following God and their purpose.

02:10:15.340 Right.

02:10:15.560 And I'm saying their purpose can be known through reason.

02:10:19.800 And God's existence can be known through reason.

02:10:22.320 And obviously, then to cooperate with God, there's revelation.

02:10:24.900 But we've also agreed that some people are called to say priesthood.

02:10:29.260 So, that's not in words for every...

02:10:30.160 But we're not talking about priests, are we?

02:10:32.780 Some men are called the celibus.

02:10:34.360 All of the apostles weren't married.

02:10:36.560 Right.

02:10:37.220 The majority.

02:10:38.060 The first priests.

02:10:39.220 Yeah, somewhere.

02:10:39.980 But the first priests acting in persona Christi, in the person of Christ, who's the bridegroom

02:10:44.820 of the church, have a special charism of celibacy.

02:10:47.380 Right.

02:10:47.680 But you and I are...

02:10:48.340 We're not really talking about priests, are we?

02:10:49.720 We're talking about lay men who just don't want to get married.

02:10:52.360 Okay.

02:10:52.940 Well, I think that every guy has to decide for himself.

02:10:56.660 Right.

02:10:56.860 And that's what I'm saying is...

02:10:57.660 And that comes from either God or your purpose as a man.

02:11:01.440 And your purpose as a man is?

02:11:06.560 Different for every man.

02:11:09.820 Yeah.

02:11:10.200 I guess that's the liberal part.

02:11:11.480 It's kind of you do you.

02:11:12.480 Choose your own...

02:11:12.880 I wouldn't...

02:11:14.020 You know, like you're a political commentator.

02:11:17.940 You know, that's going to be different than what other...

02:11:19.060 Cigar salesman.

02:11:19.680 Yeah, it's going to be different than what other guys want to do.

02:11:23.200 Sure.

02:11:23.600 But I'm a guy who works my job, is married, has kids in as much as I'm blessed to have

02:11:31.580 kids, respects my elders, has a patriotic loyalty to my country, and gives God, I hope,

02:11:40.460 even some modicum of the worship that is due to him on this earth so I can enjoy him forever.

02:11:45.220 That's great.

02:11:46.420 And I hope that...

02:11:47.300 Good job.

02:11:47.720 I hope that I'm doing it even in any way that's satisfactory.

02:11:50.940 But that's not just from my personal preference or my subjective sense of, you know, what my

02:11:55.780 purpose is, man.

02:11:56.900 That is prescribed, and it's something that I've arrived at, as many other men have arrived

02:12:01.560 at that exact same answer, through reason that I take also as a matter of authority.

02:12:07.640 That's very different from, hey, man, every guy should just decide for himself.

02:12:11.480 I'm not going to tell him...

02:12:12.160 No, that's not... I say it comes from God or their purpose.

02:12:15.000 Okay, so is it better to get married or better not to get married?

02:12:18.000 Depends on the guy, you know, for the...

02:12:20.560 There you go.

02:12:22.220 Because some men are called to celibacy, some men are called to priesthood.

02:12:24.960 Putting the priests aside for a second, what about the guys who are not going to be priests?

02:12:31.780 Some men don't have the option to get married, Michael.

02:12:33.920 I'm just saying, should they?

02:12:35.040 Would it be good for them to do it if they did?

02:12:36.160 I don't deal in shoulds.

02:12:37.320 I deal with what is.

02:12:39.260 Yeah.

02:12:39.800 Well, you do deal with shoulds in some ways, right?

02:12:42.660 You do say some things are better than other things.

02:12:44.620 But on this question, you're not willing to do it, which is why I say that the red pill,

02:12:48.940 though it acknowledges many problems in the world, that the red pill diagnoses a lot of problems,

02:12:55.960 the red pill ultimately fails in its prescriptions and is ultimately kind of the flip side of feminism.

02:13:01.660 Well, the prescriptions, it's tough because the prescriptions kind of, I don't really do that.

02:13:07.760 There's different content creators that prescribe different things.

02:13:11.020 I think you prescribe a little bit.

02:13:11.880 Some things I agree with.

02:13:13.960 I'll give one prescription, actually.

02:13:15.940 Okay.

02:13:16.200 I'll give one, just one.

02:13:17.460 All right.

02:13:18.040 If you get married, get a prenup.

02:13:20.160 No, you can't get a prenup because it invalidates the sacrament.

02:13:25.320 Really?

02:13:26.020 Yeah, a marriage is fully giving of yourself to the other person.

02:13:28.700 No strings attached.

02:13:29.760 You don't even believe in prenups?

02:13:31.320 Certainly not.

02:13:32.140 The nearest I would come to a prenup would be, I call it the Michael Knowles prenup,

02:13:36.620 which, and I'm sort of cheekily suggesting it because I really object to prenups in all circumstances.

02:13:41.820 But the Knowles prenup would be whoever, whoever initiates the divorce forfeits everything.

02:13:47.640 Okay.

02:13:48.080 That's the nearest that I would come to a prenup.

02:13:49.720 Okay.

02:13:50.640 Okay, so you kind of, but in 2024, you still wouldn't, you wouldn't advise a guy get a prenup?

02:13:56.720 30, 24, 40, 24, 10, 24.

02:13:59.660 Sorry, I'm just shocked.

02:14:00.680 Like, you hear the stories I'm telling you.

02:14:03.640 You know the state of marriage today.

02:14:04.460 I'm articulating the Catholic view of marriage.

02:14:06.160 You know the state of women today, and men still can't get prenups?

02:14:11.340 Right.

02:14:12.100 To protect themselves?

02:14:13.840 Right.

02:14:14.200 Because marriage in its nature, as you said, is a lifelong union of a man and a woman for the sake of begetting and educating children and for the mutual support of the spouses.

02:14:22.420 So if you begin that institution by saying this might not be a lifelong union, you have fundamentally undermined the institution before you've even begun.

02:14:33.820 Wow.

02:14:35.180 That's crazy.

02:14:36.600 Just the Catholic view.

02:14:37.440 So, yeah, but if you don't get divorced, what does it matter if you don't do it?

02:14:42.780 Yeah, you don't get divorced.

02:14:43.320 And the thing is, see, but see, but that's what I think we're going back to.

02:14:49.600 You say what ought to be, and I say what is.

02:14:53.080 You're also saying what ought to be, and I'm also saying what is.

02:14:55.460 No, no, you're trying to know.

02:14:56.820 I'm not trying to do anything.

02:14:57.840 Even in this scenario, the Catholic Church, the divorce rate is 35%.

02:15:02.960 It's not uncommon.

02:15:04.320 Again, though.

02:15:05.100 And so you're saying, get in the car, don't put on a seatbelt.

02:15:07.740 But the view that you're articulating is a kind of a liberal view, which is that we know what the Catholic Church teaches by just what the individuals might say at any given moment.

02:15:16.160 That's not how it works.

02:15:17.660 It works because there's a magisterium that's 2,000 years old that is articulated by a man who wears a funny hat.

02:15:22.900 But women are not acting in accordance to the Catholic teachings.

02:15:28.520 Yeah, many women don't.

02:15:29.480 I'm just telling you what the Catholic view is.

02:15:30.840 Right, right.

02:15:31.660 I understand, but I just, I think, wow, I just didn't realize your views were that extreme on that.

02:15:39.160 You mean that I believe what every Catholic believed until like five minutes ago?

02:15:41.920 I guess it is extreme.

02:15:44.160 Yeah, I just, well, I just, I don't know how you would tell a guy that you love, like, not to protect himself in an institution where.

02:15:52.640 Let's say, pick a good woman.

02:15:54.140 In 2024, well, I mean, there's women that are good women at 22 and then at 42 decide the man's an abusive monster.

02:16:01.760 How'd they come to decide that?

02:16:04.120 Usually, a lot of times their friends get involved.

02:16:06.600 A lot of times they start looking at the wrong media.

02:16:09.740 Gotta watch that media.

02:16:10.580 Or they just get spiteful and decide to do it on their own.

02:16:13.580 Gotta watch how that spite begins.

02:16:14.820 I don't deny that it happens, that these things develop over time because of rot that can set into a marriage.

02:16:20.280 That a husband needs to be vigilant about.

02:16:23.440 And a wife needs to be vigilant about it.

02:16:24.340 So if a woman decides to leave, the husband is still responsible?

02:16:29.160 The man is the head of the household and bears the leadership responsibility, in my view.

02:16:33.480 It's not in the liberal view or the feminist view.

02:16:34.880 But he can't lead a chick that doesn't want to follow.

02:16:38.580 The Christian would say, yes, the man is the head of his household.

02:16:41.280 Okay, yeah.

02:16:42.320 But I wouldn't say that's like typical in most religious marriages.

02:16:46.200 I've heard kind of the same problems in the church and out of the church.

02:16:51.840 So I wouldn't say that's the norm.

02:16:53.720 Yeah, I don't know.

02:16:54.440 You know, what is it?

02:16:55.600 5 to 10% divorce rate among the traditionalists.

02:16:58.660 10% among the Orthodox Jews.

02:17:00.620 And 30% among the Muslims.

02:17:01.720 34% among the Catholics broadly.

02:17:03.860 That includes people like Joe Biden.

02:17:05.340 And then that's still 10 points lower than the national average.

02:17:08.020 No, no.

02:17:08.300 But we just said the Catholic divorce rate's a third.

02:17:11.000 That's why I said 34%.

02:17:11.980 The national average is 46%.

02:17:13.320 But the Catholic divorce rate includes people who don't practice the faith.

02:17:16.260 That's still not small.

02:17:19.600 It's not.

02:17:20.000 I'm just saying it's significantly lower than the national average by 25%.

02:17:22.740 Yeah, it's just, wow.

02:17:26.200 Yeah, I think men should protect themselves.

02:17:28.360 You are shocked to discover that I'm a Catholic.

02:17:31.780 No, I'm shocked that you don't think that men have a valid marriage

02:17:36.940 if they want to protect themselves in any way.

02:17:39.060 No, I just, I hold to the Catholic view of the sacrament of matrimony.

02:17:43.940 Okay.

02:17:44.500 That's shocking these days, I guess.

02:17:47.640 Do you want to get married?

02:17:48.840 I'm not proposing.

02:17:49.840 Well, I'm not.

02:17:50.260 I'm not a big in this.

02:17:51.180 I'm a woman.

02:17:52.320 You're a woman.

02:17:52.860 Yeah, obviously.

02:17:53.040 Therefore, you do want to get married.

02:17:53.820 Yeah.

02:17:54.380 Yes.

02:17:54.940 I mean, obviously, there's not risk as much for women.

02:17:58.680 But I don't care about getting married with the state.

02:18:00.920 I don't care.

02:18:02.420 I would sign a prenup.

02:18:04.060 I don't care.

02:18:05.760 Would you?

02:18:06.360 But I do want to be married.

02:18:07.380 With the state, what is that, you'd just do it in a church ceremony or something?

02:18:10.620 But not recognized.

02:18:11.460 But yeah, the problem with the Catholic church is a lot of times they won't do it

02:18:16.520 unless it's recognized by the state, which I don't really understand.

02:18:22.180 The reason is that marriage is a public act, is the traditional view of it.

02:18:28.720 So it's not, you know, modern people say, oh, it's just between me and my lover.

02:18:32.620 We don't need a sheet of paper.

02:18:34.060 So it's before God, but it's also before a minister of God, and it's also before the

02:18:39.180 community.

02:18:39.580 Because marriage is both, you know, a sacrament, but also a natural institution.

02:18:44.100 So because it's the basic building block of society, because it's political in that,

02:18:49.140 you know, political just means more than one person.

02:18:51.360 Because it's the basic unit of politics, it's public.

02:18:55.000 It's public.

02:18:56.100 That's why we can't get divorced willy-nilly, because you've made a vow to God and to the

02:18:59.220 public.

02:18:59.440 Well, you can nowadays.

02:19:01.100 But I would never want to put a guy in a position where he's signing, like, a contract legally

02:19:10.920 that's not fair to him.

02:19:12.340 I just think if I love someone, like, I wouldn't want to put him in that position.

02:19:16.580 So personally, I don't care.

02:19:19.220 I don't, because you're paid.

02:19:22.660 I could.

02:19:23.020 I know I wouldn't, but I just, I think anything you can do nowadays to make a guy feel better

02:19:28.280 about it with the risks today, I think is fine.

02:19:31.460 So I don't really.

02:19:32.480 Wouldn't that increase the chance that he could divorce you?

02:19:34.460 Not that anyone ever would.

02:19:35.760 Yeah, but men divorce for, like, good reasons, where women divorce for the dumbest reasons.

02:19:40.120 I don't think there's any good reason.

02:19:41.140 No, there's no good reason, but they're more, it's like, abuse, infidelity, where women,

02:19:46.180 it's like, I wasn't happy anymore.

02:19:47.520 So, you know, no, because I think if you're a good wife nowadays, one, it's rare.

02:19:56.500 Yeah.

02:19:56.960 So, you know, I think it's kind of the onus on me to make a marriage, like.

02:20:02.580 But isn't it, so if you're not worried about him leaving you, and he.

02:20:07.200 Yeah, I mean, if it happens.

02:20:08.100 Then shouldn't you just say, I will never.

02:20:09.600 If it happens, it's an L, but.

02:20:11.120 It's a big L.

02:20:12.200 It's an L, I wouldn't want it.

02:20:13.820 But wouldn't it be, when you're getting married to a future Mr. Pearl, you know, shouldn't

02:20:18.300 you just say, hey, pal, I will never, under any circumstances, divorce you, so help me

02:20:24.500 God, which is actually the value.

02:20:25.920 Well, there's so many women that say that, and they don't mean it, and then they do something

02:20:31.520 completely.

02:20:32.100 I do mean it, but I think, you know, part of growing up is being able to see another point

02:20:38.080 of view and another perspective, and just because I mean it, you know, it doesn't.

02:20:43.820 I'm not offended that he would want a prenup, or he would want to protect himself.

02:20:47.840 You should be offended by that.

02:20:49.340 You should be.

02:20:50.260 I don't think you should be.

02:20:51.820 I think we should be trying, you know, I think you should try to make men, like, more comfortable

02:20:57.840 with it, because, you know.

02:21:00.220 But I don't think giving men a greater option to divorce makes them more comfortable with

02:21:05.560 marriage.

02:21:05.820 I think it makes them less comfortable in marriage.

02:21:07.680 I think the greater the opportunity to break it up, the worse it is for the institution.

02:21:13.820 Yeah, but right now, one party is rewarded where one's punished.

02:21:18.760 Yeah.

02:21:19.400 So one party has a great opportunity to do it, and one party has much less of an opportunity,

02:21:26.000 but I don't think that's ameliorated by growing the opportunity of the other party, right?

02:21:31.860 Wouldn't the better one be to just say, may I be struck down dead if I divorce you,

02:21:36.180 Val, but we're in it together?

02:21:37.360 Yeah, but you can say that, but it doesn't make it true.

02:21:41.460 So I just, I think, you know.

02:21:43.720 Your word is your bond, isn't it?

02:21:45.500 I mean, that's what they say, but.

02:21:48.180 But yours is.

02:21:49.500 Just because, just because I would not leave and I would not divorce, I understand how many

02:21:58.240 women have said that before and done the opposite thing.

02:22:01.000 And while, you know, it's not my fault, I think it's fair to make men feel more comfortable

02:22:08.120 with it.

02:22:09.160 So I just, I don't, I don't need the government to, to, why do I need the government?

02:22:13.540 Because we live in society.

02:22:15.140 But I don't think I need the government to confirm a, something that's between me, him

02:22:22.940 and God.

02:22:23.700 But it's not just between him and God.

02:22:24.540 And the community that I'm in.

02:22:26.200 It's, it's, well, and the community, but that's the politics.

02:22:29.780 That's just another word.

02:22:30.440 I just, I don't think the government really should be in marriage.

02:22:33.420 I think that's something that should be in the church.

02:22:35.380 What is the government?

02:22:37.080 I don't, what is the government?

02:22:40.080 Yeah.

02:22:40.940 You're talking about the government like it's some foreign thing.

02:22:42.960 What is the government?

02:22:43.480 We're just talking about the political.

02:22:44.580 Well, I don't, I don't think the government should be the legal enforcement arm for children.

02:22:49.400 What, what else operates the law than the government?

02:22:53.740 By definition, the government is what operates the law and, and passes the law and enforces it.

02:22:58.000 For me personally, Michael, I, I would be okay with a prenup.

02:23:01.720 I, I don't, I would not be offended.

02:23:03.520 I would not be offended by a DNA test.

02:23:05.260 I would, I think that's fine.

02:23:07.480 So.

02:23:08.280 All right.

02:23:09.020 Well, you're, listen, I hope you find a good man who, based on that, but I think you'll

02:23:15.520 find a better man if you say I won't find a, I won't sign a prenup.

02:23:20.180 I think I'll find a dumber man, but.

02:23:21.980 Sorry.

02:23:24.200 Sorry.

02:23:27.000 Because that is, that is dumb.

02:23:29.900 Let me know in 10 years if the marriage rates go up with this strategy.

02:23:34.620 Well, look, they won't go up if people keep being big libs, but that's why, that's why

02:23:38.880 I'm a little concerned that, that even people who, who rightly diagnose the problems with

02:23:43.360 marriage are coming up with solutions that will not help in the end.

02:23:47.560 So, mainly men being selfish.

02:23:51.120 I think, I think that's kind of a mischaracterization of the way I would put it.

02:23:57.720 I don't think protecting yourself is selfish.

02:24:00.940 Or men, you know, sort of walking away, as you put it earlier.

02:24:04.560 I did not say that every guy should do that, so I don't know why you keep trying to say

02:24:09.440 I said that.

02:24:09.740 You just suggested it would be a good strategy.

02:24:11.320 I, no, I said that, I said that, I, I said that some men will, so.

02:24:18.060 No, you literally said it's a good strategy to do that.

02:24:22.700 And I didn't say they should do it, so I don't, I don't know what we're.

02:24:26.420 So, the phrase, it is a good strategy to, and one should, are semantically identical.

02:24:34.420 They mean exactly the same thing.

02:24:34.900 Okay, it is an option.

02:24:37.440 It is an option, but that's not, we all agree it's an option.

02:24:39.880 We're just asking what's best to do.

02:24:41.500 No, I don't, again, I don't try to say what's.

02:24:44.820 But you accidentally did.

02:24:45.900 That's, I try not to say what's best.

02:24:49.120 I, again, I try to.

02:24:50.420 Why not?

02:24:50.740 You're a smart girl, Pearl.

02:24:51.860 Why don't you tell us what you think?

02:24:53.820 Well, because, again, I think it's about what is and what the reality of the world is.

02:24:59.220 And, and I, you know, again, until you lower the risk for men and raise the reward,

02:25:06.240 you're not going to see traditionalism return in any capacity.

02:25:10.380 Okay, well, we'll see.

02:25:11.620 Because I guess my, my way that I would impel people to engage in more traditional and I

02:25:18.260 think lifestyles that are more conducive to their flourishing is just to tell them to do

02:25:23.760 it and encourage them to do it.

02:25:25.140 And when they do the thing, when they, when they do the rational activity in accordance

02:25:29.120 with virtue, that will lead to their happiness.

02:25:31.100 So I think sort of by definition that, that will help.

02:25:35.640 But I guess the other thing we could do is disengage, sit on our hands and watch Rome burn.

02:25:40.660 No, I think, I think, I think we could come together and, you know, make the laws more

02:25:44.220 fair for men.

02:25:45.200 Yeah, yeah.

02:25:45.640 And I think, I think that would be the solution that we would agree on.

02:25:49.260 It's part of it.

02:25:50.100 Okay.

02:25:50.420 But don't sit on your hands for the rest of the time.

02:25:52.180 That's number one.

02:25:53.400 Yeah.

02:25:53.780 Yeah.

02:25:54.180 Okay.

02:25:54.600 All right.

02:25:55.780 And in the meantime, people will make their own decisions.

02:25:58.680 Okay.

02:25:59.840 Pearl, thank you.

02:26:00.660 Yeah, thanks for having me.

02:26:01.360 Pleasure to chat with you.

02:26:02.440 Thank you.

The Michael Knowles Show - March 16, 2024

Michael Knowles DEBATES Pearl Davis ｜＂Men Should Bow Out＂

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