The Michael Knowles Show - Michael Knowles DEBATES Viral BLM Activist

00:00:00.000 Race has no root in biology, but the impacts of race are still felt.

00:00:04.340 You think America's a racist country?

00:00:06.200 Yeah.

00:00:06.600 I'm not sure that black people have more rights today.

00:00:08.480 Black people don't have anywhere near the right to life that they had before Roe v. Wade,

00:00:11.720 which is why more black babies are murdered in the womb in New York City than they were born.

00:00:15.260 Oh, boy, I've got to teach you about some racial issues.

00:00:18.860 Can a man become a woman?

00:00:23.040 This isn't an altruism.

00:00:24.280 No, this is a nine-week fetus in a petri dish.

00:00:26.420 In a petri dish, it's just really ghastly to show a picture of a person.

00:00:30.320 These debates usually take place in the matrix.

00:00:33.880 One person in one digital universe, and then another person in another digital universe,

00:00:38.500 and it's reactions on reactions on reactions.

00:00:40.440 And it's too much.

00:00:42.360 It's not conducive to human flourishing or productive discourse.

00:00:46.520 And so today, I have invited JJ, and he's graciously accepted,

00:00:51.480 to come on over here and have this discussion in person.

00:00:54.680 This episode is brought to you by ExpressVPN.

00:00:57.760 More from them in a moment.

00:00:59.000 Now, though, JJ, thank you for being here.

00:01:01.800 Absolutely.

00:01:02.400 Anytime.

00:01:02.960 And it's not going to stop.

00:01:04.060 We're going to keep going back and forth in the matrix after this.

00:01:06.820 Absolutely.

00:01:07.360 It doesn't stop.

00:01:08.380 It's my job now.

00:01:09.560 This all started because I was talking to another young liberal lady,

00:01:15.060 and I made the claim that when you have sex with somebody,

00:01:20.820 you are consenting to the possibility of pregnancy.

00:01:25.280 And you found this very objectionable.

00:01:27.220 No.

00:01:28.060 No.

00:01:28.320 That was nice.

00:01:28.840 You agree with that?

00:01:29.560 No.

00:01:29.700 Well, yeah.

00:01:29.960 I do agree that you're consenting to the possibility of pregnancy.

00:01:32.220 But you said you're consenting to the possibility of pregnancy.

00:01:35.600 And she agreed.

00:01:36.420 And you said, well, if it's consent to the possibility,

00:01:38.040 then it is consent to pregnancy.

00:01:39.240 That's what I took the issue with.

00:01:40.620 Because I don't believe in any other scenario do we hold the concept of

00:01:43.720 consenting to an action means that you're consenting to every feasible outcome of that action.

00:01:48.880 But the possibility of pregnancy, the only end of that is pregnancy.

00:01:55.000 I'm not saying the possibility of pregnancy or this or that or some other thing.

00:01:58.860 I'm saying the possibility that this action will result in a pregnancy.

00:02:03.740 I don't understand what the distinction would be.

00:02:05.960 What do you mean only end of that?

00:02:09.080 Just the term possibility means that something could happen.

00:02:12.240 So there's multiple possible outcomes of sex, right?

00:02:15.220 So one thing that I like to pull from is not just the pregnancy aspect.

00:02:19.340 Because, again, I mentioned to you in one of our videos going back and forth

00:02:22.680 that humans have sex for multiple reasons.

00:02:24.720 And you took a little issue because you said, well, there's supposed to only be one reason.

00:02:28.460 No, no, no.

00:02:29.060 There are multiple reasons.

00:02:30.440 But some reasons are more important than others.

00:02:32.660 Yeah.

00:02:32.940 And I would say that, especially if we're looking at what sex is naturally ordered to,

00:02:37.640 sure, producing offspring is one of them.

00:02:40.080 But also communication, relationship, bonding,

00:02:42.580 those are all very critical things that also take part in a relationship.

00:02:46.240 You can even have sex with the person and not further that relationship.

00:02:49.440 There are various things that take place.

00:02:51.660 Well, you'll further some sort of relationship.

00:02:53.440 You'll further a relationship.

00:02:54.860 But if you want to do hookups or if you wanted to do a one-night stand or whatever,

00:02:58.380 it could take place.

00:02:59.660 But you don't need to furtherly engage with that person.

00:03:02.960 Now, what if you have the hookup or the one-night stand

00:03:05.420 and maybe you're even using artificial contraception,

00:03:09.200 but it doesn't work or it breaks and the girl gets pregnant?

00:03:13.060 Then you're not going to have anything to do with her?

00:03:14.740 That relationship's not going to go any further?

00:03:17.040 Well, no.

00:03:17.420 I think you could have nothing to do with somebody regardless of whether or not they are pregnant.

00:03:21.160 But I'm asking in this specific case.

00:03:22.400 In this specific instance, then it depends on what the two people want.

00:03:25.460 If you guys like each other enough, you want to stay together,

00:03:28.140 I'm not saying that you necessarily need to be like, kick them to the curb.

00:03:30.920 I don't even know where that necessarily comes from.

00:03:32.480 But again, sex has multiple different possibilities.

00:03:35.880 It could be that someone gets pregnant.

00:03:37.920 After that point, you want to still further the relationship.

00:03:40.380 You could say you don't want to further the relationship.

00:03:42.580 That's not necessarily what the point is.

00:03:44.620 But if you don't further the relationship, then you would be abandoning your child

00:03:48.980 and the woman that you've left.

00:03:51.440 I'm going to take issue with that a little bit because I feel like you are...

00:03:55.140 There's this concept of an intuition pump, right?

00:03:57.280 So if we use the term child, intuition pump.

00:04:00.400 An intuition pump?

00:04:01.120 Yeah.

00:04:01.360 So essentially, it's when you push loaded emotional connotations

00:04:05.300 into words that don't necessarily meet them in a given scenario.

00:04:07.840 So for example, if you're to say a child, right?

00:04:10.740 Me and you aren't dumb.

00:04:11.920 When we colloquially use the term child, we're referring to birthed people,

00:04:16.560 people who are already born.

00:04:17.540 No, I refer to offspring.

00:04:19.240 Yeah, offspring.

00:04:20.940 I mean, see, I can understand why you can use the term offspring, right?

00:04:26.040 Because you are still referring to offspring when you say the word child.

00:04:28.960 But if I say child or kid or even baby,

00:04:32.000 those all three things are connotated of people who are born.

00:04:35.640 And those are actually definitions.

00:04:37.020 I don't think so.

00:04:37.920 I mean, for instance, when my wife first became pregnant with our first child,

00:04:42.720 before the baby was born, people would ask,

00:04:46.220 oh, how's the baby doing?

00:04:47.420 I would think about my future son, my child.

00:04:50.180 I'd get the bedroom ready.

00:04:51.360 We'd start buying clothing.

00:04:52.500 So I certainly, when I would refer to my child,

00:04:55.960 I would be referring to the baby in the womb.

00:04:58.120 Do you know why you were referring to it as a child?

00:05:00.380 Because it's my child.

00:05:01.540 Yeah, I mean, yeah, but also you were under the impression

00:05:03.780 that that child was going to be born, correct?

00:05:05.780 When people ask, how's the baby doing?

00:05:08.520 And that also works the other way,

00:05:09.900 because a lot of times you can say it's impolite to ask necessarily

00:05:12.540 if you don't know someone's pregnant.

00:05:13.740 Or you don't want to call someone fat.

00:05:14.800 Yeah, you don't want to call someone fat,

00:05:15.800 but you also don't want to assume that either everything is just peachy

00:05:20.000 or that they want to keep that pregnancy.

00:05:21.740 Well, I want to assume that someone is not going to murder her child.

00:05:25.680 I do make that sense.

00:05:26.400 Well, that you're factually wrong on that,

00:05:27.860 because murder is a specific legal definition.

00:05:29.880 You could say it should be murder,

00:05:31.000 but if you're going to assume that they're going to murder their child,

00:05:33.680 that is assuming that the killing is unlawful.

00:05:36.360 And that's also assuming that abortion is...

00:05:38.520 It is unlawful because it is not merely...

00:05:41.580 Moral law, maybe, but not law law.

00:05:44.860 I don't know what law you're talking about,

00:05:47.180 which abortion is...

00:05:48.920 The natural law and the moral law from which we derive the civil and positive law.

00:05:51.720 What do you mean natural law and moral law?

00:05:53.520 I mean laws that are true for all people at all times.

00:05:56.860 So we have certain civil laws and positive laws.

00:05:58.840 You know, the state of Louisiana might have a different kind of traffic law

00:06:02.140 than the state of New York.

00:06:03.440 But there are certain laws, like it is wrong to commit murder,

00:06:07.460 that are true for all people at all times.

00:06:09.760 Yes.

00:06:10.280 And so the way that we get our civil law and our positive law

00:06:12.560 is in part by deducing certain conclusions from the moral and natural.

00:06:17.200 Yeah, but you're also shoehorning in the legal term

00:06:20.300 while trying to define why it's wrong for like everybody.

00:06:23.240 Well, no, murder has been understood to be wrong since...

00:06:25.820 Yeah, no, what I mean by that is that the term murder

00:06:28.340 is the unlawful killing of a person, right?

00:06:31.220 But if someone kills somebody in self-defense,

00:06:33.200 that's not an unlawful killing.

00:06:34.380 It's still killing.

00:06:35.200 Yeah, it wouldn't be murder, right?

00:06:36.820 So you can't say that necessarily like,

00:06:38.480 oh, it is murder when it isn't because the killing in this instance,

00:06:42.560 the termination of the pregnancy,

00:06:43.960 which would entail the death of the fetus, is lawful.

00:06:46.320 So it's not an unlawful killing.

00:06:47.640 No, no, no.

00:06:48.060 It's not lawful.

00:06:48.600 Oh, because you believe that it shouldn't be lawful

00:06:51.200 or you believe that it disagrees.

00:06:52.820 We have a difference of opinion here.

00:06:55.580 You say that it is lawful.

00:06:57.780 No, that's the reality of opinion.

00:07:00.680 That's a fact.

00:07:01.380 That's not even an opinion.

00:07:02.200 It is lawful.

00:07:02.780 What do you think an opinion is?

00:07:04.080 Opinion is something that's subjective up to your interpretation.

00:07:06.880 On the books, the law is that abortion is not murder.

00:07:09.960 So if you say abortion is murder, you are factually incorrect.

00:07:12.180 So before we get back to abortion for a second,

00:07:14.400 I think you're mistaken about the meaning of the word opinion

00:07:16.880 because you seem to be conflating an opinion with a preference.

00:07:20.060 Do you understand the distinction between the two?

00:07:23.360 There is a distinction between the two,

00:07:24.780 but that's not the connotation which I was using.

00:07:26.720 Well, you were saying an opinion is subjective, right,

00:07:29.560 in the way that a preference is subjective.

00:07:31.680 You know, I like vanilla more than chocolate.

00:07:33.780 That would be a preference.

00:07:35.220 That's not what an opinion is.

00:07:36.640 An opinion is when you make a statement of fact from your perspective.

00:07:40.560 So here's how I would show you an example.

00:07:42.420 Well, that gets into the whole, like, alternative fact realm.

00:07:44.580 You can make a proclamation about what you perceive the world around you to be,

00:07:49.500 and that can be your opinion,

00:07:50.780 but there's a specific distinction between opinion and effect.

00:07:53.600 Now, you can say that, like, a preference and an opinion are similar

00:07:57.900 in that they're both subjective.

00:07:59.440 That doesn't mean that necessarily they are the same thing.

00:08:01.900 They're not both subjective because a preference can't be wrong,

00:08:05.500 whereas an opinion can be wrong.

00:08:07.040 So, for instance, I can say,

00:08:08.500 I think that the moon is made of green cheese.

00:08:11.760 It is my opinion that the moon is made of green cheese.

00:08:14.220 That is my opinion, but it's wrong.

00:08:17.100 I could also say that I think the sun is shining outside today,

00:08:22.940 and that would also be my opinion, but it would be correct.

00:08:25.580 So some opinions can be correct and some can be wrong

00:08:27.920 because they're statements of fact from your perspective.

00:08:29.720 No, some opinions can be correct and some opinions can be wrong

00:08:33.520 because of the underlying data and the underlying evidence that is to...

00:08:37.040 Right, the reality to which they refer.

00:08:38.560 Yeah, so you can say that it is your opinion that the sun is shining,

00:08:42.580 and that's also an opinion that is based off of the fact that the sun gives off light.

00:08:46.980 But you could also say it's my opinion that the moon is made out of cheese,

00:08:51.360 but there's literally no evidence to back that up.

00:08:53.980 Exactly.

00:08:54.340 That's why it's wrong.

00:08:55.400 Yeah, I think reducing it down to a preference versus an opinion

00:08:58.540 is kind of trying to misconstrue the words there.

00:09:01.020 No, no, no, because I could have a preference.

00:09:02.900 I could say I like cigars, which I do, and you don't like cigars,

00:09:06.620 and that's my preference, and that's your preference.

00:09:09.280 Neither of those is wrong.

00:09:10.540 They're just our tastes.

00:09:11.900 And de guste de buisson et des bouton de mestre, as we say.

00:09:14.080 But I could say a cigar is made of tobacco,

00:09:17.060 and you could say a cigar is made of green cheese,

00:09:20.180 and I would be right and you would be wrong.

00:09:21.760 But that's not a statement of fact from your perspective.

00:09:24.120 That's what you believe to be a fact, which is what an opinion is.

00:09:27.560 Yes, so that is a statement of fact.

00:09:30.540 Yeah, so if I have a preference of what type of cigar, whatever,

00:09:33.420 those two things cannot be wrong.

00:09:34.780 But if you're saying an opinion is really a statement of fact from your perspective.

00:09:38.880 That's what you just said, too.

00:09:39.660 Well, that's what you believe to be a fact.

00:09:41.380 It's not a fact.

00:09:42.860 So that's what I'm saying.

00:09:43.600 If you get into this realm where it's like a fact is entirely dependent

00:09:46.560 on what you perceive it is,

00:09:48.560 that inherently means that one person cannot have a wrong opinion.

00:09:51.700 But you said that one person can have a wrong opinion.

00:09:53.820 It's not that the fact relies upon my perception.

00:09:58.980 It's that my perception can accurately or inaccurately describe the fact.

00:10:04.480 So I could say this is a glass of seltzer.

00:10:07.900 I think this is a glass of seltzer.

00:10:10.120 It is not a glass of seltzer because it is my opinion that it is.

00:10:13.740 It is my opinion that it is a glass of seltzer because it actually is in fact.

00:10:17.640 But if you said this is a glass of chocolate milk,

00:10:20.000 and it is my opinion that this is a glass of chocolate milk,

00:10:22.000 your opinion would be incorrect, and your perception would be defective.

00:10:25.700 No, I will say, I think that the way the language is getting parsed here,

00:10:29.240 it's like an opinion is a statement of what is a perceived fact from your perspective.

00:10:34.720 But it's not a statement of fact from your—

00:10:37.740 Because you see where the distinction is?

00:10:39.260 You can't say that it's a statement of fact from your perspective.

00:10:43.300 It's a declaration.

00:10:44.320 You're saying, I think this.

00:10:46.380 I think X.

00:10:47.460 But in reality, the truth is actually Y.

00:10:49.880 So if you're saying, oh, it's a statement—

00:10:51.900 Yeah, but if you're saying it's a statement of fact from my perspective,

00:10:54.420 if I say, I think X, it's a fact that you think X,

00:10:59.460 but that's as far as it can go.

00:11:01.540 It's not really a fact from your perspective.

00:11:03.300 So we can't—

00:11:03.880 I feel like the reason why I'm making the distinction here

00:11:05.840 is because it's kind of like putting my subjective opinion on the same level as like—

00:11:11.160 Because it's like, oh, you can't say that I'm wrong because it's a fact from my perspective.

00:11:14.100 That's kind of—maybe I'm reading into what you're saying wrong,

00:11:16.120 but that's kind of the vibe I get.

00:11:17.520 I get the alternative fact vibe where it's like—

00:11:19.980 I'm not sure what vibe that is.

00:11:21.800 That's the, you know, Trumpist vibe thing that I'm getting

00:11:25.480 where it's like you can see people in a crowd and be like,

00:11:27.700 well, it's my opinion that I had the biggest inauguration size of all time.

00:11:31.100 And that's just an alternative fact because it's from my perspective.

00:11:33.560 But in reality—

00:11:34.360 If you had a digital audience, you actually did.

00:11:35.640 But that's a topic for another time.

00:11:36.540 Digital audience is crazy.

00:11:37.740 I don't think Obama was pulling too much on the live stream forums in 2008.

00:11:41.320 He probably wasn't, yeah.

00:11:42.420 Exactly.

00:11:42.740 That's why such a statement would be true, too.

00:11:45.280 But I guess the reason it's important to clear this up is

00:11:49.320 because we have a disagreement here over whether a baby in the womb is a baby,

00:11:55.460 is morally significant in the way that you and I are morally significant.

00:11:59.040 We have a disagreement.

00:11:59.880 You say, I think that it—well, no, actually what you're saying is

00:12:02.540 it is simply a fact that the baby is not a baby.

00:12:04.660 And I'm saying it is my opinion that the baby is a baby.

00:12:07.100 No, I wasn't saying that.

00:12:07.740 So we have a difference of opinion.

00:12:09.080 But at most, one of us is going to be right.

00:12:12.020 No, my statement of fact was that abortion wasn't murder because of the legal term.

00:12:16.360 But that would presuppose that the baby is not a baby.

00:12:18.820 If the baby is a baby, then abortion would be murder, right?

00:12:21.780 Because you'd be unlawfully killing a person.

00:12:24.140 Well, no, because again, when you say the word unlawfully,

00:12:26.600 you're talking about your moral, like your moral law.

00:12:29.060 I'm speaking of the objective moral.

00:12:30.680 Yeah, and the law in the United States is that abortion is not murder.

00:12:35.320 If they overruled it and said, yes, now abortion is murder, then it would be murder.

00:12:39.000 But you can't say abortion is murder because it's unlawfully killing a baby or a person or whatever.

00:12:45.720 Well, it is lawful.

00:12:47.180 In many states, abortion is substantially or entirely illegal, according to even the civil positive.

00:12:52.880 Yeah, so at the best, you can have it is kind of sometimes murder, depending on the state.

00:13:00.020 But you don't have caveats in that statement.

00:13:02.580 You say it is murder.

00:13:03.540 I guess I think the mistake that you're making, though, is that you're suggesting that the positive law or the civil law of the state is the ultimate law.

00:13:10.960 Oh, and the laws, I'm sorry, but I'm sorry.

00:13:13.260 Also, the laws in those states do not rule abortion as murder.

00:13:16.320 They usually pull a really short time frame that's like almost impossible for the woman to know that they're pregnant.

00:13:21.560 And if you still have the abortion, you still are aborting that zygote that is unique human DNA, but they don't consider it murder.

00:13:28.000 I think taking it to murder is the draconian position where it's like, okay, well, now we need to prosecute as if it were murder.

00:13:34.520 But even Republican states don't do that.

00:13:35.940 No, that's not true, including in liberal states.

00:13:38.220 If, for instance, though New York just changed it because they wanted to liberalize abortion,

00:13:41.800 but if you were to murder a pregnant woman, you would be charged with double murder because you've killed the mother and you've killed the child.

00:13:49.340 And that's true even in liberal states.

00:13:50.420 Yeah, that is true, and I think the rationale behind that, that's not saying the same thing as abortion,

00:13:56.920 the process of terminating a pregnancy, is murder because the reason why—

00:14:00.300 But the murderer terminates the pregnancy.

00:14:02.520 Yeah, no, the rationale is because there is no distinguished—you can't predict whether or not a woman is going to bring a pregnancy to term.

00:14:10.160 So if you have a pregnant woman and you kill—think it from a legal sense.

00:14:12.820 If you have a pregnant woman and I kill you, and I kill the woman, and then the baby dies too, whatever,

00:14:18.120 I get charged double because we don't know what was going to happen.

00:14:21.280 We're under the impression that they were going to bring the pregnancy to term because it wouldn't really make sense to prosecute otherwise.

00:14:27.440 But you're not—the murderer would not be charged with murdering the woman and violating her right to decide whether or not she wanted to take a pregnancy to term.

00:14:36.220 Yeah, no.

00:14:36.640 What he's charged with is double murder.

00:14:37.780 The reason why they're charged with double murder is because when you kill the mother or whatever—so that's what I'm saying.

00:14:43.120 Abortion is a separate concept.

00:14:44.360 But to be charged—

00:14:45.160 No, because abortion is the ability to terminate a pregnancy, right?

00:14:49.680 So if you're killing somebody, terminate a pregnancy.

00:14:53.260 Well, you're using a euphemism.

00:14:54.480 Because if it's an ectopic pregnancy, then the baby's already dead, but the abortion procedure—

00:14:58.120 Hold on.

00:14:58.400 How did we get to the topic of ectopic pregnancy?

00:15:01.000 Because the procedure is still an abortion.

00:15:02.520 I think because you're kind of moving away from the homicide issue.

00:15:04.640 No, no, no.

00:15:05.280 Hold on, hold on.

00:15:05.740 Because I think you're—because the point that's very important—

00:15:07.280 Wait, how am I moving away from it when you cut me off and then I'm trying to explain to you why what you just said was wrong?

00:15:11.840 What I'm saying is an ectopic pregnancy, you would still get rid of that pregnancy via abortion.

00:15:15.920 The term abortion is just the termination of a pregnancy.

00:15:19.100 A lot of times it does result in the—and it's the termination of a non-viable pregnancy in particular.

00:15:25.220 Abortion refers to the termination of a non-viable pregnancy?

00:15:28.020 What percentage of abortions do you think are in the case of ectopic pregnancy or a threat to the life of the mother?

00:15:34.260 Oh, that's a different question.

00:15:36.360 No, no, because what I'm saying is far more than 99% of abortions are elective where the baby is viable.

00:15:42.160 Yeah, no, no.

00:15:43.020 So what you said is true.

00:15:43.740 What you don't understand is the concept of viability.

00:15:45.760 80% of abortions take place in the first week—not the first week, the first trimester.

00:15:49.660 Oh, you're saying viable of living outside of the mother's womb.

00:15:51.740 Yes, yes.

00:15:52.020 That's what I'm saying.

00:15:52.800 That's why—so the vast majority of the time and the only time—

00:15:54.980 But the baby would still be viable in as much as the baby would continue to develop and live, just like you continue to grow.

00:15:58.980 That's not—again, you're mincing words because that's not what the term viability means.

00:16:03.000 I'm just trying to get through the euphemisms.

00:16:04.560 You're saying that it's not euphemisms.

00:16:05.940 It's literal words.

00:16:07.520 I don't know what euphemisms—maybe I'm—

00:16:09.340 Do you know what a euphemism means?

00:16:11.000 Yeah, I know what a euphemism means, and I'm not using one.

00:16:13.320 But the thing is, I'm telling you—

00:16:14.300 A euphemism is a word to try to paper over a harsh reality with a language that would be less evocative and clear.

00:16:21.000 I'm going to assume—

00:16:21.680 Which is why I'm referring to a human being in the womb, and you're trying to refer to, say, a pregnancy or the product of a pregnancy—

00:16:26.800 Hold on.

00:16:27.280 Did I—wait, wait, wait, wait, hold on, hold on.

00:16:28.860 I didn't say that the pregnancy or the fetus isn't a human being.

00:16:32.020 It is.

00:16:32.560 Oh, okay, good.

00:16:33.620 I'm telling you—

00:16:34.180 But then why won't you call it a human being?

00:16:35.880 What?

00:16:36.340 I said a pregnancy.

00:16:37.620 Right, but why do you use that euphemism rather than the—

00:16:40.240 Because I'm describing what the term abortion refers to.

00:16:42.780 It's referring to ending a pregnancy, meaning it doesn't necessarily mean killing a human being.

00:16:47.360 If the human being is already dead, you'd use the same procedure.

00:16:50.380 Listen, but abortion doesn't operate on people who are already dead.

00:16:54.440 Abortion, you could—

00:16:56.100 That's why I'm bringing up ectopic pregnancy.

00:16:58.160 No, the threat of an ectopic pregnancy is the baby is continuing to grow and threatens the life of the mother.

00:17:02.380 No, but no, so if it, like, develops cancer, if, like, the cells that are developing into the baby turn cancerous, or there's something where—

00:17:09.500 Well, the mother could develop cancer separately, which would be—

00:17:11.780 Yeah, no, but I'm saying in terms like that where the baby is dead, or you have, like, a miscarriage or something like that,

00:17:17.560 the process on—the process by which you terminate that pregnancy is still abortion.

00:17:22.420 Abortion is simply referring to terminating a pregnancy of an unviable fetus, which means—or a non-viable fetus,

00:17:29.120 which means that in the time in which it is terminated, it cannot survive outside the mother.

00:17:33.820 That's the term abortion.

00:17:35.160 Now you can say abortion could be used for killing a baby or everything, but that doesn't change the—

00:17:41.560 But it doesn't change the fact that there are circumstances which the baby's already dead,

00:17:45.200 and that procedure is still called an abortion.

00:17:47.000 So outlawing that procedure—

00:17:48.660 It isn't, though.

00:17:49.520 It is.

00:17:49.980 Because you used the word terminate.

00:17:51.100 That's consensus.

00:17:51.620 What does the word terminate mean?

00:17:52.980 End.

00:17:53.480 A pregnancy.

00:17:54.100 Okay, and what is a pregnancy?

00:17:55.020 What do you mean by a pregnancy?

00:17:56.760 The fetus is inside of the mother.

00:17:59.140 And doing what?

00:18:00.840 So the termination of a viable—

00:18:02.500 What's the threat?

00:18:03.060 What do you mean?

00:18:04.200 When you say you're going to end the pregnancy, by which you say you mean the fetus that is inside of the mother.

00:18:10.640 But—

00:18:11.200 Well, I don't mean ending the fetus that is inside the mother.

00:18:13.460 I mean ending the process of pregnancy.

00:18:16.060 And what is that process?

00:18:17.160 The process is the continued growth of that pregnancy.

00:18:19.580 Yes.

00:18:19.840 Which is life.

00:18:21.160 That's why it's not dead already.

00:18:22.040 Yes, even if the baby is no longer growing or something, that's still a pregnancy because it's still inside the mother.

00:18:28.140 The termination of a viable pregnancy is delivery or C-section.

00:18:32.900 So I don't think you understand—

00:18:34.160 So the termination of a non-viable pregnancy would be when the baby cannot live outside the mother, right?

00:18:39.900 And you get an abortion or whatever.

00:18:41.180 That's how you termine it.

00:18:41.640 But you could do that in 18 weeks.

00:18:43.020 That's not an ectopic pregnancy.

00:18:44.240 That could be just any time before the baby could live outside of the mother.

00:18:47.380 Yeah.

00:18:47.760 Okay.

00:18:48.440 So we're no longer just talking about ectopic pregnancy.

00:18:50.420 Yeah, no, I was never only trying to make the point that ectopic pregnancy is the only—

00:18:55.560 I'm saying the term abortion refers to terminating a pregnancy.

00:18:59.260 That can be at any stage of the pregnancy.

00:19:01.780 If you terminate a non-viable pregnancy, that is abortion.

00:19:05.540 That is usually what will happen in the first few weeks or the first trimester, which is when most abortions happen.

00:19:10.800 When you terminate a viable fetus, meaning a fetus that can live outside the womb,

00:19:15.020 unless it's a threat to the mother, which is very rare, that is a delivery.

00:19:18.940 If the pregnancy ends on a viable fetus, that is usually because the mother has pushed out the baby or got a C-section.

00:19:25.440 You don't like me using this term, baby or person or human being.

00:19:29.420 You don't like me.

00:19:29.720 Because I think that you and me and everyone watching knows that the image that pops into mind when you say a baby or a child.

00:19:37.420 We say the term, how's the baby, how's your baby, to a woman who's pregnant because we're under the assumption that they're going to bring that baby to term.

00:19:45.140 No, that's not why.

00:19:46.000 Yes, we make that jump that it's like you're going to get birthed.

00:19:48.800 Perhaps that's how you interpret it.

00:19:50.100 The way I interpret it, the reason that I would ask, how is the baby doing, is because I'm inquiring into how that baby at that particular moment is doing.

00:19:58.420 That's why I use that language.

00:19:59.740 Well, yeah.

00:20:00.740 No, that's the same.

00:20:02.380 Those two things.

00:20:02.700 But I'm not saying because in the future the baby will be.

00:20:04.640 No, those two things aren't mutually exclusive.

00:20:06.440 They're obviously not mutually exclusive.

00:20:07.360 You could be inquiring into the condition of the baby, but the reason why you're using the term baby is because when you see someone who's pregnant, you don't think about, hey, do they want to bring this to term?

00:20:20.460 What's going on in their personal life?

00:20:21.880 So this brings us back to the point that's at hand here because what you seem to be suggesting here is that the identity of the being inside the womb is contingent upon whether or not the mother wants to have an abortion.

00:20:40.300 So if the mother does want to have an abortion, let me at least explain what I think you're saying, and then you can correct me if I'm wrong.

00:20:46.900 You're saying if the mother wants to have an abortion and get rid of the baby, then you wouldn't refer to it as a baby.

00:20:52.480 You wouldn't ask, how's the baby doing, obviously.

00:20:54.380 But if the mother wants to bring the baby to term and then raise the baby and send the baby off to college, then you would ask, how is the baby doing?

00:21:00.540 And the question of whether or not that baby is a baby depends upon the wishes of the mother as pertains to that baby.

00:21:07.300 Is that what you're saying?

00:21:07.920 Well, no.

00:21:08.320 So what I'm saying is the language that you use, right?

00:21:10.880 So when we're using the term baby, you don't – there's no point in which you're growing up through childhood and you stop and think, huh, let me consider the complex natures of pregnancy and the way the mother – you just kind of assume you see someone showing they're going to have a baby.

00:21:23.880 How's the baby doing?

00:21:24.740 And most times it's not offensive because usually if you're getting to the point where you're showing, you're probably going to already carry the baby to term.

00:21:29.340 But when we're talking about the fact that the vast majority of abortions happen within the first trimester, a lot of times you're not even showing.

00:21:35.100 Majority now are patients.

00:21:36.740 Or, you know, drugs.

00:21:37.320 Yeah, and at that point you don't even really get the opportunity to ask, how's the baby doing?

00:21:41.940 Because a lot of times you don't even know that somebody is pregnant or they don't even know that they're pregnant and then they get the thing.

00:21:46.460 So it's like when you see somebody who is obviously pregnant, a lot of times they're further along, they're planning for a baby.

00:21:52.800 So we make that jump, hey, how's the baby doing?

00:21:55.300 Because you're under the assumption that, yeah, most people are going to bring the baby to term.

00:21:58.820 But if that baby, okay, so if the baby is a baby and you're going to call it a baby.

00:22:02.540 So if you asked somebody, hey, how's the baby doing, then you'd listen to them.

00:22:06.640 And if they're like, well, we're going through some stuff and I don't know, I'm looking into getting an abortion.

00:22:11.400 If they get that close to you, I don't know, I don't really acquits that information, like something close to me.

00:22:15.020 But if they got close to you and they're like, yeah, I don't know, you'd probably be better off if you didn't like, oh, but your child, how's your child doing?

00:22:24.700 Because you know what that's invoking.

00:22:27.000 Sure, okay, so let's leave it at baby.

00:22:28.560 If you're granting that you see a pregnant woman, you say, hey, that's a baby.

00:22:32.200 I'm acknowledging that that thing is a baby.

00:22:34.160 Then don't you necessarily have to conclude that it would be wrong to kill that baby through an abortion?

00:22:38.300 Because you're saying it's a baby.

00:22:39.700 Well, yeah, if you use that language.

00:22:41.480 But you just said you would use that language.

00:22:42.900 No, I'm saying, yeah, if you're saying, oh, how's the baby doing?

00:22:46.120 And they're like, yeah, I'm going to kill this baby.

00:22:48.980 No, I'm just asking your opinion of it.

00:22:50.300 Yeah, but I'm saying.

00:22:50.980 Assuming you support legal abortion.

00:22:51.900 So you get, yeah, you get two separate like things, right?

00:22:54.220 So if you say, oh, how's the baby doing?

00:22:56.660 And they're like, oh, I'm planning on murdering this baby.

00:22:59.300 That's one thing.

00:23:00.160 If you're saying, oh, how's the baby doing?

00:23:01.700 It's like, well, I don't really know.

00:23:03.160 I think I'm going through some stuff with the pregnancy.

00:23:05.260 My doctors told me that X, Y, Z is going to happen or I'm just not in a position right now.

00:23:09.760 I think I'm going to end my pregnancy.

00:23:11.200 That's going to be fine because most humans can understand.

00:23:14.620 It's like, okay, this person doesn't have the, this person doesn't have the.

00:23:19.000 I didn't say, I didn't say, oh, I thought you said funny.

00:23:21.600 No, I wouldn't find that fine at all.

00:23:22.840 Why wouldn't you find that fine?

00:23:24.160 Well, because we both just agreed that whatever it is that is inside the mother's womb is a baby.

00:23:31.540 We both agreed that we would.

00:23:33.160 You just said baby, but fetus means.

00:23:34.760 No, I'm saying you using baby.

00:23:36.680 The reason why we colloquially use the term baby is because we make the assumption that

00:23:40.520 they're going to give birth to that baby.

00:23:42.120 It's a lot of times when we see someone pregnant, if they're obviously showing that they're pregnant,

00:23:45.960 they're probably far along enough to where you can make the assumption they're going

00:23:48.560 to give birth.

00:23:48.840 But you wouldn't say that.

00:23:49.600 But if I was a medical professional or if I'm talking about the concept of pregnancy

00:23:53.440 or a term relating to that pregnancy, like abortion, I'd use the term fetus because we're

00:23:59.140 talking in scientific terms now.

00:24:00.760 There is no room for, we're not talking about, oh, what value are we going to assign to this

00:24:05.640 kid?

00:24:05.920 We need to give the mother like a time to actually decide what's going to happen.

00:24:10.800 What does the word fetus mean?

00:24:12.900 What does the word fetus mean?

00:24:14.180 It's a stage of human development.

00:24:16.220 Do you know the meaning of the word though?

00:24:17.660 I don't know.

00:24:18.080 Like, what are you talking about?

00:24:19.260 It's a Latin.

00:24:19.740 Yeah.

00:24:20.060 Oh, I thought you, okay.

00:24:21.020 I don't know like the Latin origins.

00:24:22.720 It means offspring.

00:24:24.100 Yes.

00:24:25.700 And?

00:24:27.560 Yeah.

00:24:28.040 So if I say that I have a teenager at home, that's offspring.

00:24:31.760 If I say I have a child at home, that's offspring.

00:24:33.580 If I say I have a baby at home, that's offspring.

00:24:35.800 They're all offspring.

00:24:36.500 You say you have a fetus.

00:24:37.120 Yeah.

00:24:37.720 Yeah.

00:24:38.300 Fetus, offspring.

00:24:39.120 You shouldn't kill any of them.

00:24:40.280 Four different stages of development.

00:24:41.940 Yeah.

00:24:42.440 Yeah.

00:24:42.680 Of the same thing.

00:24:44.020 Yeah.

00:24:44.180 But they all say, they all mean offspring.

00:24:46.560 Exactly.

00:24:46.640 If I use the term, same thing with it.

00:24:48.060 With fetus.

00:24:48.580 Yeah.

00:24:48.880 Same thing with everything.

00:24:49.800 And so it would be wrong.

00:24:50.640 I'm not saying, yeah, no, I'm not saying that using one word over the other means that it's

00:24:55.000 not your offspring.

00:24:55.820 Right.

00:24:56.060 So we grant it's four stages of the same person.

00:24:59.060 So it'd be wrong to murder your teenager.

00:25:00.900 It'd be wrong to murder your child.

00:25:02.780 It'd be wrong to murder your newborn infant.

00:25:04.220 And it would be wrong to murder the fetus.

00:25:05.800 Yeah, because if you murdered them, then that's unlawful killing.

00:25:08.580 You keep using that word.

00:25:09.380 You can say kill because you believe that it should be murdered.

00:25:12.400 Do you think there's a moral law that exists separate from the positive laws of any given

00:25:17.760 state?

00:25:19.420 A moral law?

00:25:21.180 Yeah.

00:25:21.600 I believe morality exists.

00:25:23.360 I don't believe that there's a moral creed that we all...

00:25:25.960 What is morality?

00:25:28.320 That's a tough question for me.

00:25:29.900 I think morality to me is, well, I don't know, like, kind of what we feel, I don't want to

00:25:36.720 say, I don't necessarily, because I think it's a little bit deeper than feeling, kind

00:25:40.020 of like our nature or our feeling of what's right and wrong.

00:25:44.760 I think the way in which we ground that, I like to ground my morality in human well-being

00:25:48.820 and trying to, like, reduce as much harm as possible.

00:25:53.420 But I don't, when it comes to, like, a specific definition, I don't know if you're

00:25:57.280 looking for, like, a dictionary.

00:25:58.160 No, I think we've gotten reasonably close.

00:26:01.840 Yeah, but the reason why...

00:26:02.920 You make a good point, which is you say, I think it's more than a feeling, which necessarily

00:26:07.240 it must be.

00:26:08.060 It must be reasonable.

00:26:09.980 So if we are to know anything about morality at all, it's not just going to be from our

00:26:13.940 feelings, which might change with our passions, but it would have to be through the use of

00:26:17.420 our reason.

00:26:18.240 We would know, using our reason, that certain things are better than other things, and that

00:26:23.260 certain things are right and certain things are wrong.

00:26:25.160 Yeah, but I don't necessarily, like, if you're going to say a moral law and that a lot of

00:26:29.140 us, like, all of us have a moral core, like, things that we tell ourselves, like, oh, I

00:26:32.420 would never do that, or I could never do that.

00:26:33.880 No, I don't think I have a moral...

00:26:34.620 If you mean that in, like, a figurative sense, yes, but I don't mean, I don't think that there's,

00:26:38.460 like, a moral, like, declaration of specific things we all need to live up to.

00:26:43.320 I think we all have an idea of what's an ideal that we try to live up to, and we try to get

00:26:47.380 as close to that as possible and try not to violate it.

00:26:49.440 So, but the ideal is objectively true, or it's just subjective.

00:26:53.460 What do you mean?

00:26:54.380 Well, it seems to me you've contradicted yourself a little, which is, you're saying, yes, we

00:26:59.100 all have an intuition of morality, of ideals that we would like to live up to, but it's

00:27:03.980 not like a declaration or a law.

00:27:06.180 Like, when I say that, I don't...

00:27:07.120 Something you should do.

00:27:07.520 Like, when I say that, I mean it's, like, not...

00:27:09.340 I know you are religious.

00:27:11.120 I don't believe it's, like, divine, like, commandment written down somewhere.

00:27:14.340 I think that it's more, like I said, like, what we intuit, what we feel, like, strong.

00:27:18.780 Why do we feel it?

00:27:20.180 Why do we feel it?

00:27:20.980 I think it's...

00:27:22.300 I think there's a lot of reasons for that.

00:27:23.760 I think, A, it comes from our being as a social species and our ability to think sentiently

00:27:30.300 that gets us to think about some complex stuff, even, like, is what I'm doing right or wrong?

00:27:34.720 How would this make other people feel?

00:27:36.100 I think that that comes from our evolution of being around each other, having to communicate

00:27:40.780 to survive, having to make compromises, see what's right and wrong, recognize,

00:27:44.340 that if we kill each other, then we probably just keep going at it and no one gets any

00:27:47.760 benefit out of it, and it's, like, it's those things that kind of develop as humans.

00:27:51.480 But then if it were merely that, you know, we don't kill each other because that would

00:27:56.440 probably produce some problems for society over time, so we just basically have a truce

00:28:01.320 not to kill each other, that wouldn't be, then, to say that it is wrong to kill someone,

00:28:06.880 to commit murder.

00:28:07.600 Yeah, because...

00:28:07.920 It would just say that we just kind of agree to not kill each other because it's...

00:28:11.040 Yeah, I think that...

00:28:12.340 So then, this is crucial, you're not grasping at an ideal that you are intuiting using your

00:28:17.700 reason.

00:28:18.100 You're just kind of coming up with a concordat to live together.

00:28:21.400 No, but I think that before there's a time where we can sit across from each other and

00:28:24.980 discuss what the meaning of right and wrong is, I think that there's a time where there's

00:28:30.100 these feelings that we have through our evolution and everything where it's like, cool, I don't

00:28:34.780 want to kill this person, not just because it's going to cause some problems down the line,

00:28:39.380 but it's like, we can recognize what loss is, we can recognize what we don't want that

00:28:43.820 to happen to us, and it'd probably be better as our species if we work together to accomplish

00:28:47.920 things more than we fight, and then that further, that same ideal gets put into words when we

00:28:54.140 get more words to describe that, and we're like, okay, this is wrong.

00:28:58.340 We don't agree.

00:28:59.360 And I don't think that it's subjective in the sense that, oh, we could just decide what's

00:29:02.840 right and wrong.

00:29:03.320 I think it's objective, but that's only given that we all agree on the framework that

00:29:08.140 we do all agree on, which is well-being.

00:29:10.140 So then it wouldn't be objective, it would be relative.

00:29:12.580 It's objective given, no, it's objective given, like a scope.

00:29:16.760 So I don't think that you can go out and find morals in the ground, but I think if as a

00:29:21.020 So could you deduce morals using your reason?

00:29:24.700 Or do you even have a reason?

00:29:26.260 Deduce morals using your reason?

00:29:28.680 I think you can use your reason to understand and come to a more moral position, yeah.

00:29:32.980 I don't think that you can, I don't think it's like you make it up, but there are certain

00:29:37.740 things that you feel and then you use your reason to get to the best.

00:29:41.240 So that is what I'm getting at when you keep saying that, well, because in certain states

00:29:48.060 the positive civil law has a license for abortion, that therefore it's legal and there's no moral

00:29:54.240 conundrum here.

00:29:54.900 But what I'm pointing out is that sometimes the positive civil law is unjust compared to

00:30:01.020 the objective moral law.

00:30:02.520 This is something like Martin Luther King talk about a lot.

00:30:04.780 That's again, you can't, you can't say that it's, I mean, you can say that it's wrong

00:30:09.180 according to the objective moral law, but according to my objective moral law, there is, it's not

00:30:13.820 wrong.

00:30:14.160 I just think, I think you're wrong.

00:30:15.660 If, but if, if there is a distinction between your moral law and my moral law, then there

00:30:22.200 can't be an objective moral law.

00:30:23.780 You understand?

00:30:24.160 No, because we can also, we can argue about what, do you value like human well-being?

00:30:30.160 Oh yes, very much.

00:30:30.800 And I, and I assume that you value that because you come at the position of, oh, it's killing

00:30:34.460 a person.

00:30:35.020 We don't want to kill a person.

00:30:36.060 That's a bad thing, right?

00:30:37.280 No, no, I, no.

00:30:38.140 Human well-being is much broader than just laws about murder.

00:30:40.500 Yeah, no, I'm saying that's one of the things where it's not, if you track it all the way

00:30:43.300 back, it can be, at the end of the day, it is very not conducive to human well-being

00:30:47.000 for us to kill each other, or in your, or, or in your view, the killing, like, the innocent

00:30:52.020 child, all the language that you put on.

00:30:53.900 So it's like.

00:30:54.440 Being murdered is not conducive to one's belly.

00:30:56.000 So I think that in, if we're talking about abortion, you can stop there and say, it's

00:31:01.140 wrong to kill, therefore, this is not.

00:31:03.840 It's not always wrong to kill.

00:31:04.740 Yeah.

00:31:05.480 And I, I, I can take, yeah, and I can take that and I can say, it's not always wrong to

00:31:09.860 kill.

00:31:10.200 Yeah.

00:31:10.400 And I think that.

00:31:11.180 But it's always wrong to commit murder.

00:31:11.960 And I think that, yeah.

00:31:13.460 Yeah.

00:31:13.600 Which is why abortion is not murder.

00:31:14.760 So it's always wrong to take innocent human life.

00:31:17.880 I don't think that that's, okay, we're going to get into what innocence is.

00:31:21.800 But I think that when it comes to the case of abortion.

00:31:24.980 Yeah.

00:31:25.140 When it comes to the case of abortion, I don't think that you saying that, oh, this is murder

00:31:30.200 or this is killing or everything, and that's wrong.

00:31:33.520 I don't think that it's necessarily a wrong take to have.

00:31:35.780 But I can say, I can say that when it comes to human well-being and what we both agree on,

00:31:40.440 human well-being is a positive that we should shoot for, I think the best way for us to achieve

00:31:43.980 human well-being is allowing half of our population to have bodily autonomy.

00:31:49.600 Right.

00:31:49.860 But so we obviously disagree there.

00:31:53.240 So I'm saying it is conducive to well-being and objectively morally good not to kill babies

00:32:00.920 in the womb.

00:32:01.320 You're saying it is, Michael, I see your point and I respect your opinion, but I think that

00:32:06.940 it is conducive to human flourishing and well-being and perhaps even morally good to allow for

00:32:12.260 legal abortion.

00:32:13.200 Those are contradictory opinions.

00:32:15.320 Yeah.

00:32:15.640 Only one of them can.

00:32:16.480 No, so yeah, we're still agreeing on the groundwork of well-being because at the end of the day,

00:32:21.040 you're arguing—

00:32:21.620 Clearly not.

00:32:22.300 No, you're—yeah, in my opinion, clearly not because I think you're flat wrong.

00:32:25.760 But what we're saying is the groundwork of what is best for human well-being is still

00:32:30.320 there.

00:32:30.860 And even though you could say like, oh, well, we're disagreeing on this thing, we don't

00:32:34.660 disagree that we're trying to operate for human well-being.

00:32:37.320 That's where our morals are grounded.

00:32:39.120 Now, the way we go about it can take different routes.

00:32:41.160 And I think you're objectively wrong because I think that if you have half of the population

00:32:45.220 being a slave to their biology, meaning the millisecond that there's a baby inside of

00:32:49.840 them, there's no autonomy.

00:32:53.440 There's no autonomy?

00:32:54.780 You lose your autonomy when you're pregnant?

00:32:56.100 You lose your bodily autonomy, yes.

00:32:57.780 What are you talking about?

00:32:58.560 If in your framework.

00:32:59.700 Have you met anybody who's ever been pregnant?

00:33:02.000 What do you mean?

00:33:02.520 What do you think I mean when I say lose your bodily autonomy?

00:33:04.920 Do you think I mean you can't go to—

00:33:05.680 Lose the agency over your body.

00:33:06.520 Do you think that I mean you can't like go to Kroger or something?

00:33:09.000 I mean that you can't make that decision.

00:33:10.800 That's what you imply.

00:33:11.880 If we make abortion illegal, I'm saying you no longer have control over the developmental

00:33:15.960 process that's happening within your body.

00:33:18.520 And I think that it's not conducive to human well-being because when we're talking about

00:33:23.000 granting rights, respecting people's rights, granting equal rights, if we say that a fetus

00:33:27.220 is a person, deserves all the equal rights of everybody, I could even agree and grant you

00:33:31.460 that.

00:33:31.660 They do deserve all the equal rights of everybody.

00:33:33.360 Right.

00:33:34.100 But one of those things is not getting to use somebody's body for life without consent.

00:33:38.640 Oh, well, then we have a contradiction.

00:33:40.000 So then we have to figure out if that's really a right or not.

00:33:42.600 Is the right to abortion really a right at all?

00:33:44.860 Yeah, I think—

00:33:45.160 It would seem like you—you actually seem to have concluded that it's not before reversing

00:33:48.660 yourself and saying that it is.

00:33:49.640 Because you've just said that the baby—

00:33:50.560 I'm saying for the sake of argument, I can grant you that the fetus is a person with

00:33:56.100 all human rights.

00:33:57.180 Right.

00:33:57.320 But one of those human rights that no one else gets in any other circumstance is getting

00:34:01.680 to use somebody's body against their will.

00:34:03.680 No matter whether or not you put them in that situation or otherwise, you don't get

00:34:07.100 to be forcefully—the government shouldn't get to forcefully connect you to somebody and

00:34:11.520 then you cannot disconnect from them.

00:34:13.260 Well—

00:34:13.680 That's a right that nobody else has that you're trying to give to people.

00:34:16.120 You know how the baby ended up there, right?

00:34:17.740 Yeah, I know how the baby ended up there.

00:34:19.020 And that's what we got to get consent to sex.

00:34:20.460 It probably wasn't a gunpoint.

00:34:21.040 It was probably because of a willful action of the mother and the father.

00:34:24.740 Yeah, it probably was a willful action of the mother and the father.

00:34:27.080 But if I have a kidney disease running in my family, and I know that if I give birth—or

00:34:32.440 my wife gives birth to a child, there's a high likelihood that they will have the same

00:34:35.920 kidney disease.

00:34:36.900 And then they're born, and they have that kidney disease, and they need a kidney.

00:34:40.820 Does the government have the right to force me to connect—to donate my kidney to keep

00:34:45.200 them alive?

00:34:45.720 No, it might be a good thing for you to do.

00:34:47.680 But no, the reason is because your kidneys are for you.

00:34:50.260 They're for the functioning of your body.

00:34:52.200 Well, they're for the functioning of filtering blood.

00:34:54.780 No, no, no.

00:34:55.400 You can say they're for me in the same way that I could say a woman's uterus is for her.

00:35:00.760 For her baby.

00:35:01.460 No, it's for her.

00:35:02.920 No.

00:35:03.320 It can facilitate—

00:35:04.180 You just made my point.

00:35:05.320 What is—so you say the purpose of a kidney is to filter blood, right?

00:35:09.100 For you.

00:35:09.980 It's not—my kidneys aren't for filtering blood for you.

00:35:12.360 They're just for filtering my blood.

00:35:13.900 No, they're for filtering blood, though.

00:35:15.760 So if I—

00:35:16.180 But they're my kidneys, right?

00:35:17.340 They're part of me.

00:35:18.060 They're an integral part of me.

00:35:19.120 So my lungs are for taking in oxygen.

00:35:23.120 My—

00:35:23.720 Yeah, it's for taking in oxygen, not your—not for you, right?

00:35:27.700 For me.

00:35:28.000 It's for you because you're using it, right?

00:35:31.040 But so what is the—if the end of the kidney is filtering blood, and if the end of the lungs

00:35:36.580 is taking in oxygen, and if the end of the eyes is seeing, what is the end of the womb?

00:35:42.180 The end of the womb, or the end of the uterus, would be for procreation.

00:35:46.120 There you go.

00:35:46.840 Yeah.

00:35:47.320 Yeah.

00:35:47.540 But that doesn't mean that anything that happens to that thing is now out of the jurisdiction

00:35:51.660 because it has the ability to fester life.

00:35:54.140 So the thing that I'm talking about is, well, we're talking about blood cells.

00:35:57.060 We can talk about life.

00:35:58.040 Those things technically are alive.

00:35:59.480 They don't have the same—I can grant you they don't have the same—

00:36:01.200 They're not a human being.

00:36:01.860 Yeah, they're not a human being.

00:36:02.940 They're in my—the cell of my hair.

00:36:04.000 But you can't say that, well, no one else has a right to my kidney because it's for me.

00:36:08.180 At the end of the day, a kidney is a kidney.

00:36:09.680 You can write off about donating a kidney before you die, and then once you die—

00:36:13.140 You can donate your kidney.

00:36:14.020 Yeah, once you die, you can donate.

00:36:14.980 There's a distinction between your kidney and my kidney, which is—

00:36:16.540 Yeah, there's a distinction between your kidney and my kidney.

00:36:18.680 I think that my kidney is for me, but again—

00:36:21.500 Right, we agree.

00:36:22.040 Again, when we talk about it's not necessarily what it's for and its utility, the process,

00:36:27.500 the thing that kidneys are for are donating blood.

00:36:30.340 And you can say it's a—

00:36:31.360 No, it's not for—

00:36:31.720 Not donating blood, for filtering blood.

00:36:33.000 For filtering blood.

00:36:33.220 I'm sorry.

00:36:33.620 But you can say that it's a moral good.

00:36:36.460 I could say you're morally virtuous if you're in that situation and you decide to donate your kidney.

00:36:42.780 I can say that that's a morally good thing to do.

00:36:45.140 I would never legislate that you must do that and just say, well, it's for me.

00:36:49.760 That would be disordered.

00:36:50.380 Yeah, but I'm saying if you're just going to offer—

00:36:52.220 Well, no, because it's for me.

00:36:54.000 Well, it's like, okay, if we're operating based off your framework, it doesn't matter whether or not it's for you.

00:36:59.420 You put your child in that situation.

00:37:01.520 You knew that if you had sex and you procreated, chances are your child was going to be born with a debilitating kidney disease.

00:37:07.600 And as a parent, you have to take responsibility for that and forcefully give them your kidney.

00:37:12.900 No, but this is a fallen world and everyone—

00:37:15.620 This is a fallen world.

00:37:16.660 And everyone endures some suffering.

00:37:18.140 So it's not—we don't sue our parents in a law court because of the inevitable suffering that comes along with life.

00:37:23.820 That would seem rather unusual.

00:37:26.040 Yeah, but that's just not traditional suffering, though.

00:37:28.000 It's kind of analogous to sex in pregnancy because if I am having sex with a person and I know that there is a non-zero, even a high probability, that they will have some defect or some, like, for the example, a kidney disorder, and I know that that's a possibility when I go into it.

00:37:45.660 If we're saying that you know that getting pregnant is a possibility when you go into it, therefore, when the pregnancy happens, you are—your uterus is their possession now and you cannot control it.

00:37:55.340 It's not their possession, but it does what its natural end is.

00:37:57.620 I mean, I think we've arrived at something that's important here, which is that we know what things are largely by what they're for, right?

00:38:05.900 That's the distinction between—like, if I have a microphone here.

00:38:09.640 Let's say I had a bigger microphone, though.

00:38:11.240 I had, like, a rock star microphone.

00:38:14.580 And you might ask me, Michael, what is that in your hand?

00:38:18.620 I would say, well, it's a microphone.

00:38:21.680 What distinguishes this microphone in my hand from some other similarly looking object that I could hold in my hand?

00:38:29.040 For instance, I could use the microphone to hang a painting on the wall, right?

00:38:33.600 I could use it and I could hammer a nail into my wall.

00:38:35.900 And it would probably hammer the nail.

00:38:37.980 Probably wouldn't do a very good job at it, but it would hammer the nail.

00:38:40.180 It would probably break the microphone if I did that.

00:38:41.780 So I could use the microphone for that purpose, but it would be a better order.

00:38:48.940 It would be a better use of the microphone to use it for amplifying—

00:38:52.480 Would you outlaw using it for hammering it into a wall?

00:38:56.080 Well, not necessarily, but if it redounded in the murder of a child, I probably would.

00:39:00.280 Oh, see, again, there's the intuition pump again, because now we're going to go back to the whole,

00:39:05.880 it's not murder because it is lawful, and then you're going to say, oh, because the moral law that you subscribe to—

00:39:10.920 Which you agreed to with.

00:39:11.600 My moral law, that is not murder.

00:39:13.760 No, but there can't, again, there can't be multiple moral laws.

00:39:17.180 We're just disagreeing over the moral law.

00:39:19.680 Yeah, well, you're saying—well, because we both—we're not even necessarily disagreeing.

00:39:23.220 I think we are.

00:39:23.600 We both arrived at the conclusion of human well-being, and you just think that it is murder, therefore it is not human well-being.

00:39:29.160 And I'm saying, well, no, it is letting a woman decide whether or not to carry a pregnancy to term,

00:39:34.080 seeing as consent to sex isn't consent to pregnancy, and consent to pregnancy isn't consent to staying pregnant.

00:39:38.620 So I think giving them that option is conducive to well-being, and you think it's not because it's murder.

00:39:44.360 So the well-being part is still there.

00:39:46.040 You're just using the—

00:39:47.280 So you keep coming back to this phrase, well-being, which is quite interesting,

00:39:50.420 because it's a core aspect of ethics going back many years now, going back to the Nicomachean ethics of Aristotle.

00:39:57.560 And it's good.

00:39:58.540 We all want human flourishing.

00:40:01.160 Eudaimonia is one way to call it.

00:40:04.040 But you seem content to just leave it at that and say, well, we just disagree over the nature of well-being.

00:40:09.960 But can't we dig in a little bit deeper?

00:40:11.940 So if we say that morality is objective and we are simply perceiving it in different ways and we're having a disagreement, therefore,

00:40:21.580 about the true nature of what is good for human beings, then can't we continue to interrogate that question?

00:40:28.740 So I think you arrived at it, though.

00:40:30.700 You tried to jump off it very quickly, which is you said the baby in the womb is entitled to all the rights that everybody else has.

00:40:36.680 But the mother has the right to kill it.

00:40:39.960 I said I'm going to grant you the argument that even if it is a person, it does not have—

00:40:44.560 If you're going to say that it's a person, therefore, it is endowed with all the rights of people,

00:40:48.660 one of those rights is not to use somebody's body against them.

00:40:51.600 So now we arrive at this issue of a contradiction.

00:40:55.040 How is that a contradiction?

00:40:56.260 Well, because you just said that the baby has a right to the same rights that we have.

00:41:00.880 Now, one of those would be the right to life.

00:41:02.660 That would be the most basic right.

00:41:03.640 What do you mean by right to life?

00:41:05.800 The right not to be murdered, let's say, in this case.

00:41:08.180 The right not to be murdered.

00:41:09.940 So let's say, is that—that's all you mean when you say the right to life?

00:41:16.180 In this instance, yeah.

00:41:17.700 So, okay, again, murder is a specific—okay, so, here.

00:41:22.820 I thought we—

00:41:23.240 Here, here, here, here.

00:41:24.560 No, because you can say that you disagree with killing from a moral standpoint in certain circumstances.

00:41:30.640 That's completely fine.

00:41:31.680 The term murder only means the legalistic one that we have.

00:41:37.280 It doesn't mean that it's calling to, even into question, objective morality.

00:41:41.720 Let me try—

00:41:42.100 Because murder, murder, the concept of murder is unlawful killing or unjust killing of an innocent person.

00:41:49.060 Those are all things that we agree morally are bad.

00:41:52.420 You shouldn't kill an innocent person.

00:41:54.280 You shouldn't unjustly kill somebody.

00:41:56.040 But at the end of that, it is kill.

00:41:57.920 When you say murder is calling on our moral intuition, you're taking a legal term that has specific legal definitions and trying to apply it to a moral sense when all you really mean is that you think it should be murder.

00:42:10.100 Let me try a different tack here on the same question.

00:42:12.380 Do you think slavery is wrong?

00:42:14.020 Yes.

00:42:14.640 Okay.

00:42:16.320 Do you think slavery in the American context was wrong?

00:42:19.920 Yes.

00:42:20.320 Do you think slavery is unlawful?

00:42:25.880 Yes.

00:42:26.600 Today.

00:42:27.380 If I said back in the day, no, it's not unlawful.

00:42:29.440 It's not unlawful.

00:42:29.720 That'd be a statement of fact.

00:42:30.960 That's not me saying I agree with the process—with the institution of state.

00:42:33.960 So why do you disagree?

00:42:35.700 Why do I disagree?

00:42:36.340 Why would you, if you were living in 1860 in some regions of the country, why would you say that slavery is wrong when it would also have been lawful by your understanding?

00:42:47.540 Well, again, you can say that murder is wrong, but if I said that working for somebody is slavery, that would also be a wrong statement.

00:42:58.240 You can say slavery is wrong, but I can't say this one aspect of, like, working is slavery.

00:43:05.620 So what I mean by that is, if I say that murder is wrong, that's a true statement.

00:43:10.540 Cool.

00:43:10.900 But if I say abortion is murder, you're just trying to get it to, well, therefore, abortion is wrong.

00:43:15.760 Well, see, the reason why—

00:43:16.540 But you have to prove that abortion is murder.

00:43:19.500 The way you would make that—

00:43:20.420 And it's not.

00:43:20.860 The way you would argue that is you would say that the baby in the womb that you're calling a fetus or embryo—

00:43:26.680 On top of that, I'm sorry.

00:43:27.540 On top of that, we don't merely legislate on morality.

00:43:30.900 So even if you think that abortion is immoral, that is different from what should be legal.

00:43:34.780 All laws derive from the moral law.

00:43:36.860 That's cap.

00:43:38.080 But we'll get to that in a second.

00:43:39.180 That's a nice one.

00:43:40.000 This is really important.

00:43:42.700 The argument that abortion is murder rests on whether or not the baby is a baby.

00:43:47.580 So I'm saying the baby is a baby.

00:43:48.900 You're saying the baby is not a baby.

00:43:50.020 In exactly the same way that the injustice of slavery rests entirely upon whether or not the black person is a person or not a person.

00:43:57.540 Well, no, because then it would be whether or not the fetus is a person.

00:44:01.880 Correct.

00:44:02.180 And a baby.

00:44:02.860 Right.

00:44:02.980 But even then—

00:44:03.660 Exactly.

00:44:04.140 Wait, I'm sorry, because I'm going to need you to repeat what you said after, but you just casually slipped in there that all law comes from the moral law.

00:44:12.240 Right, because what is law?

00:44:13.060 So, question.

00:44:16.500 Speed limits.

00:44:21.320 Do you have a strict moral position on what a given speed limit should be?

00:44:27.040 Yes, a speed limit would be arrived at as a matter of prudence, which is a cardinal virtue for the well-being of the traveler and also the safety of the people around him.

00:44:37.900 Okay, so—

00:44:38.520 Those would be moral considerations.

00:44:39.640 So, is driving 40 miles an hour in a 35 immoral?

00:44:43.800 It's probably not too imprudent.

00:44:45.860 It's probably not too reckless.

00:44:47.160 I would—

00:44:47.660 And therefore not too unjust.

00:44:49.040 I wouldn't say it's—there's any moral value in driving 40 in a 35.

00:44:54.780 And the reason why I say that is because—

00:44:56.100 Well, it's a disobedience to the civil authority.

00:44:57.540 That would be—

00:44:58.160 When you go a certain threshold over a speed limit, say you're going like 20 over, and say it's a school zone, you can say that's immoral because you're seriously endangering people, right?

00:45:07.080 But when you're talking about what we have is law in our society, driving 40 in a 35 will get you no moral condemnation, nor should it.

00:45:15.160 Well, it could get your speeding ticket, though.

00:45:16.640 Because there are different degrees of stuff, so you can't—and then something like—

00:45:19.860 It's still—it might be less morally significant than criminally speeding in a school zone, but it would still have—the way you would arrive at the speed limit would be through moral debate and moral deliberation.

00:45:30.360 Yeah, you could talk about moral debate and moral deliberation for developing, like, the threshold of—

00:45:36.180 Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

00:45:37.500 Even if you take the speed limit example, and you can say, okay, well, at this threshold, it's not immoral, and at this threshold, it is immoral.

00:45:47.160 That's what a speed limit is, right?

00:45:48.100 Yeah, you could do that same thing with anything, with abortion.

00:45:51.860 But you might be right or wrong.

00:45:53.300 Yeah, you could—

00:45:54.020 Some laws might be unjust.

00:45:55.300 I'm sorry, like, what do you mean by that?

00:46:00.440 I mean, like, for instance, when the abolitionists came around in the 19th century, they said it is legal, according to the positive civil law, for white men to enslave certain black men.

00:46:14.380 But according to the higher law, that is deeply unjust.

00:46:18.760 Wait, hold on.

00:46:19.740 That's a contradiction.

00:46:20.500 If all law comes from the moral law, then how did slavery becoming legal even happen?

00:46:25.520 Because this is a fallen world, and people use—

00:46:27.900 Because this is a fallen world.

00:46:29.040 And because people have sometimes defective reasons and defective wills, so they sometimes legislate evil things.

00:46:34.820 No, so when you say—

00:46:35.720 Like abortion.

00:46:36.220 When you say that law or all law comes from the moral law, moral law is objective, and then you say, well, slavery was a legal process, but you believe that that's wrong.

00:46:46.720 Now you're saying—

00:46:47.300 Because our reason and our wills are imperfect.

00:46:49.160 Yeah, but I'm saying you're saying that if all law comes from moral law, right, you could just be wrong about abortion, about your stance on abortion, right?

00:46:59.340 Right, that's why there's a mismatch.

00:47:00.860 So you're saying that abortion is murder, and murder is always wrong because it comes from the objective moral law.

00:47:06.600 But there are other things that come from objective moral law that we wouldn't say or we should say in its application, no, it doesn't, because how would slavery come from an objective moral law?

00:47:17.180 Because of the defect of the intellect and the will of the people who legislated it, which is why after comparing the clearly defective positive law with the objective moral law, which we can do through our conscience and our reason, we realized that there was a mismatch here and that the civil positive law was unjust.

00:47:36.880 That's why we got—

00:47:37.640 So you're saying the natural state of our having moral law is that slavery is wrong, but it's our reasoning that twisted and made it so it was correct.

00:47:49.900 No, it's that this is a fallen world with defects in our intellect.

00:47:53.600 What do you mean by fallen world?

00:47:54.820 I mean it's not perfect.

00:47:55.920 Was it ever perfect?

00:47:59.260 Well, before the fall, yeah.

00:48:01.380 So that's a religious concept.

00:48:03.420 Yeah, but what is religion?

00:48:05.820 Religion is a certain subsect of beliefs tend to be in theology when it comes to—

00:48:11.820 What is theology?

00:48:12.940 Theology is the study of gods, the study of religion.

00:48:16.540 Faith-seeking understanding is sometimes what it's called.

00:48:18.700 And religion is a habit of virtue that inclines the will to render to God that which he deserves.

00:48:24.220 Well, that's, again, your opinion.

00:48:26.260 You can say that religion is a habit of virtue, and I can list off a bunch of different ways religion has been used in a non-virtuous fashion.

00:48:33.460 Well, right, but I'm saying one of the—

00:48:35.040 And even in the texts of certain religious books, there's non-moral—

00:48:40.220 You said that what I've done is just explain the fallen world in religious terms, and then you've criticized my definition of religion because it takes into account—

00:48:49.580 The reason why I'm saying is that if there's an objective moral law that everybody knows, that everybody does—

00:48:54.880 They don't know it perfectly.

00:48:56.680 That's the problem.

00:48:57.060 So was the—

00:48:57.620 Because our wills and our intellects are defective as a result of the fall of man.

00:49:00.880 Okay, so you're saying that there is an objective moral law that is dictated to us by a god of some sort.

00:49:07.160 Yeah, and it's knowable through reason.

00:49:08.760 Yeah, and it's knowable, but we've been fallen, and therefore we don't know the moral law.

00:49:13.360 Without substantiating—

00:49:13.580 No, no, we do have a reasonable degree of certainty about certain things.

00:49:19.240 If you get 100 people in the room, at least 99 of them are going to agree that murder is wrong.

00:49:24.080 But we don't possess perfect intellect and perfect will.

00:49:26.920 The thing is, the reason why I don't subscribe to that is because there is no demonstration, there is no substantiating that any of that even happened that led to a fallen moral world, and that's why we're here today.

00:49:38.000 What do you mean by that?

00:49:39.020 When I say that there's no demonstration, I mean religion is an unfalsifiable concept, and that you can have—

00:49:46.240 It's falsified.

00:49:47.080 You could try to make an argument.

00:49:49.100 You can't falsify because we have no way of even measuring a supernatural phenomenon because we have no way to even develop a criteria by which we measure supernatural.

00:49:56.800 We can know.

00:49:58.060 There are, for instance—

00:49:59.180 You can believe.

00:50:00.380 Well, but I guess this gets back to what we were talking about earlier, right?

00:50:03.640 I can believe, and I can think things, and I can have opinions that are my perception of reality, and they can be more or less correct.

00:50:10.140 But when it comes to religion, say, the question is, does God exist or does God not exist?

00:50:15.320 And it seems to me there are many very good arguments for the existence of God.

00:50:19.800 It seems to me that there are many very good arguments against the existence of God.

00:50:22.920 I've never seen a good one.

00:50:24.520 Well, that doesn't mean that there aren't any.

00:50:26.320 Well, yeah.

00:50:26.760 I just thought I've looked for them.

00:50:28.260 I haven't found them.

00:50:29.540 I'm not sure how confident I am that you've looked for them.

00:50:31.680 I've seen some of your stuff reacting to certain people.

00:50:32.580 I was an atheist for 10 years.

00:50:34.080 I've seen some of your stuff reacting to certain people, how you portray their argument off.

00:50:37.980 Again, and it's completely fine to voice or frame an argument in a particular way if it goes against something that you deeply hold.

00:50:47.160 But the reason why I don't develop—

00:50:48.560 No, I don't understand what you mean by that.

00:50:50.200 You think it's fine for me to—

00:50:52.200 You're saying that I've articulated a view that you find wrong, but you think it's fine for me to articulate a wrong view?

00:50:58.000 I'm saying that I think that it's, like, you're—I won't say fine.

00:51:01.780 I said I think that it's understandable, which I should say, that you would couch certain arguments.

00:51:06.560 Yeah.

00:51:06.920 But no, that you'd couch certain arguments that, like, disagree with your religion in a negative light or whatever,

00:51:12.640 because I don't think that you've genuinely, honestly gone and searched some good arguments for and against religion.

00:51:17.720 JJ, I was an atheist for 10 years.

00:51:18.960 I was a pretty ardent atheist for, like, 10 years.

00:51:20.660 I was quite taken with people like, you know, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris,

00:51:29.800 and more serious atheists, too, like Bertrand Russell, one of the great logicians of the 20th century.

00:51:35.060 I believe that your reasoning in this fallen world has been clouded.

00:51:38.980 It clearly was, because I was taken by the atheists for 10 years.

00:51:41.560 No, I mean, after you went back—or after you went away from atheism.

00:51:44.780 Right, well, the thing—

00:51:45.400 That's a whole other meta conversation.

00:51:47.180 But it's pretty important, because, you know, ultimately these questions are going to rest on—

00:51:54.580 ultimately they're going to come down to whether or not God exists,

00:51:57.820 because really basic aspects of how we're even speaking here will come down to that.

00:52:02.700 How is it possible—

00:52:03.300 It can come down to that, but again, you have no way of demonstrating that a God exists, that you know that—

00:52:08.640 There are many good arguments for God.

00:52:09.880 There's many good arguments.

00:52:10.980 You have no demonstration of whether or not a God exists, what their moral code is.

00:52:16.000 If your God is the correct God, if your God is the only option over other—

00:52:20.560 Yeah, according to you.

00:52:22.260 But I happen to be correct.

00:52:23.860 Yeah, according to you.

00:52:25.320 So again, what I'm saying is, if we're going to derive our sense of morality from an unfalsifiable claim,

00:52:31.700 which, again, you did do in our video when you said that consenting to being in a bar is by default consenting to being drunk because near instances of sin, which is—

00:52:40.700 The near occasion of sin, this is a really important point, the near occasion of sin,

00:52:45.840 because it gets to what we're talking about, which is that in a fallen world, we have defects of our intellect and our will.

00:52:51.380 So we're not perfectly free all the time.

00:52:53.360 Think about Hunter Biden.

00:52:55.360 We'll get to the morality of Hunter Biden, you know, sleeping with the 50th hooker of the week.

00:53:00.240 How did Hunter Biden come to sleep with the 50th hooker of the week and film himself doing it?

00:53:04.960 Well, he probably went on a long bender, and he probably drank a lot, and he probably smoked a little bit of crack,

00:53:09.700 and he was probably half out of his mind by the time he called up the hooker and then slept with the hooker.

00:53:14.460 At what point would you say he consented to those sorts of acts?

00:53:19.340 I don't really believe in adequate consent when you're under the influence, but—

00:53:25.840 Bingo.

00:53:26.500 So I want to continue that in one second.

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00:54:04.480 Do not wait.

00:54:05.520 Well, actually, you can wait.

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00:54:28.580 As we were saying.

00:54:30.000 I don't really believe in consenting when you're properly under the influence.

00:54:34.100 Bingo.

00:54:34.560 That's great.

00:54:35.460 So why not?

00:54:36.900 Because I don't believe that you are fully within your, I want to say like within your mind.

00:54:43.040 If you're doing all the stuff that Hunter Biden has allegedly done, then you're probably out of your mind.

00:54:48.000 But you're not fully in a state in which you can give consent.

00:54:51.800 You're not in full command of your intellect and your will, is what you're saying.

00:54:55.520 Which is true.

00:54:55.760 All, any of your faculties.

00:54:56.760 Or any of your faculties.

00:54:57.660 Right, right.

00:54:58.520 Your bladder probably at that point too.

00:55:00.200 So that is a great description of the near occasion of sin, which is that we can do things that compromise our will and our intellect and lead us more into temptation such that by the time that we're ready to call up that hooker on the Hunter Biden hotline, we've already so compromised our will and our intellect that we have very little control over ourselves.

00:55:27.420 That's insane.

00:55:28.280 And the reason why.

00:55:28.680 You just said it.

00:55:29.320 No, but the reason why it's insane.

00:55:30.740 No, I didn't say the part about, oh, by the time we have so little control of ourselves that being in a bar, that being in a bar means that you're, if they can't consent, then how is the act of simply being in a bar?

00:55:40.900 Yeah, no, I'm saying, if they can't consent, then how is it that they are consenting by simply being in a bar?

00:55:47.600 What you said in the video was that because of the near occasion of sin, you, by the time you go to the bar and it's a Friday night or whatever, you're beginning the process of consenting to being drunk.

00:56:01.540 For me, it's not that dangerous because I'm not an alcoholic for all my many sins.

00:56:05.000 That's not one of mine.

00:56:06.960 But as I pointed out, I think in that video, if someone were a drunk, if someone were an alcoholic inclined kind of person, then to go to the bar, on the one hand, doesn't seem like you're consenting to getting drunk.

00:56:19.420 But if you know that you are so inclined, then by putting yourself around all those delicious-looking bottles and all those drunken people, you are more inclined to take the first drink.

00:56:29.360 And once you take the first drink, you'll be more inclined to take the second drink.

00:56:32.520 And by the time you take the second and third and fourth drink, you'll be more inclined to have to be hungry.

00:56:36.300 Yeah, more inclined is not the same thing as consent.

00:56:39.120 If you take the first drink, that doesn't mean people are granted to come up to you and give you more drinks.

00:56:44.340 If you're in the bar and you're an alcoholic and no one really knows that you're an alcoholic, that doesn't mean that people are permitted to come up and just give you alcohol regardless or force you to drink it because you did not consent.

00:56:54.580 It doesn't matter what you think you are tending to do based on your preconception or your predilection of maybe I'm alcoholic, maybe I'm at this bar.

00:57:04.540 Unless you drink and you are physically doing that, you aren't consenting.

00:57:09.020 When I said that you can't consent sometimes because you're in that state of mind, that means that even if you were to be drunk, say you went and drunk a bunch or whatever and then you wanted to have sex with somebody, right?

00:57:20.260 Even if they say, yes, I do, it's not consenting because you're not in the right state of mind.

00:57:24.840 You're trying to say, oh, because you're not in the right state of mind, you not even doing the action means, well, I just can't control myself, which means the same thing as consent.

00:57:34.160 Some people can't.

00:57:35.620 What I'm doing is just taking the principle that you've agreed to and taking it to its logical conclusion.

00:57:39.720 No, you're not.

00:57:40.740 Because the principle that I agreed to is that if you're under the influence, you cannot consent.

00:57:44.920 You're saying that because you might have a predilection to being under the influence, what you do is not necessarily governed by consent because you have a predilection to do things that take you out of the influence.

00:57:56.580 I'm saying if Hunter Biden drunk a bunch, right, and he did a bunch of drugs, right, and then some girl wanted to have sex with him, he said yes.

00:58:06.480 In my book, that still doesn't count as consent because he has no governing over his faculty.

00:58:10.940 And I'm also saying that if he was sober and he said, I didn't want to have sex or I do want to have sex and someone else said no, they also, that is not consenting.

00:58:22.040 So I'm saying consent is both revocable and it's not something that you can give if you're under the influence.

00:58:28.120 Right.

00:58:28.320 So if you were to go to a bar and you get alcohol anyway or whatever because, you know, I'm an alcoholic and me being here means I'm more likely to drink.

00:58:37.700 Unless you drink, you still haven't consented to being drunk.

00:58:41.020 I guess then my question is, does, is booze or crack cocaine, is that the only thing that can compromise our will and our intellect?

00:58:49.220 It doesn't matter what compromise.

00:58:51.220 You're saying other things could too.

00:58:52.720 Like if you're a sex addict, you know, and you go to a brothel, that could compromise it too.

00:58:56.200 Any number of things.

00:58:57.040 If you're a big fat glutton and you're around a bunch of cupcakes, that could take you out of your mind too.

00:59:01.840 Put you in a cupcake-filled ecstasy.

00:59:03.240 So the point is that the concept of the near temptation of sin is that temptation can increase and that we can do things that more or less incline us to fall further into temptation and more or less compromise our wills.

00:59:20.520 No, what you're saying is a slippery slope argument.

00:59:24.040 You're saying because we can do things that can compromise our will, that means we could do something else that compromises our will, which means you could end up sitting down at the bar, which means you could drink, which means that the first part, when you walked in the door, that means you're already consenting to being drunk.

00:59:38.300 That is a logical leap that is phenomenal.

00:59:40.120 It means that you're consenting to the possibility and the increased likelihood that you wind up drinking.

00:59:47.240 Not that you inevitably would, but that you, yeah.

00:59:49.480 I wouldn't even, in the bar analogy, it's so dumb because I wouldn't even say that you're consenting to the possibility because you could go to a bar and just not drink.

00:59:57.540 But you're not an alcoholic.

00:59:58.820 I'm not an alcoholic.

00:59:59.660 Alcoholics have a hard time going to bars and not drinking.

01:00:01.560 Yeah, I mean, cool.

01:00:03.060 But that, again, does not, that does not further your argument because applicable in one situation where someone might have a predilection and even then they still haven't drunk.

01:00:10.700 But that's the instance I'm describing.

01:00:12.480 Yeah, okay, so then you're saying that.

01:00:13.940 To show the broader point of the near occasion.

01:00:16.080 No, but you can't, you can't draw that to the broader point.

01:00:18.540 You're saying because an alcoholic might have a higher predilection than being drunk when they come into a bar, even though they haven't drunk yet.

01:00:24.560 So, they're saying being in the bar, for them in particular, is essentially, yeah, much more tempting.

01:00:29.960 It's not consent, though.

01:00:30.920 You said much, you said consent.

01:00:32.480 Oh, it's, yes, you're consenting to that great increased temptation.

01:00:36.020 So, you're consenting to a possibility, but you're not consenting to being drunk?

01:00:40.280 Yes, you're consenting to the possibility.

01:00:42.020 That's precisely the point.

01:00:43.240 No, but you were saying beforehand.

01:00:44.820 And then you, therefore, incur some culpability for it by placing yourself in the near occasion of sin.

01:00:49.840 So, by being in a bar.

01:00:51.420 Okay, so, again, I don't think you understand what consent is, but—

01:00:55.500 What do you think consent is?

01:00:56.460 So, consent is giving the okay, being willing to partake in an action.

01:01:01.440 Not only just saying yes, but also being enthusiastic.

01:01:04.540 Not saying that you have to be like, yes, I'm so ready.

01:01:06.440 But, like, having a will about it where you're like, I want to actually actively participate in this thing.

01:01:11.800 So, if you're telling me that the process of being in a bar in itself means that you're consenting to—

01:01:17.540 And keep in mind, because if we're going to draw this back to pregnancy—

01:01:19.580 Well, not for me, but for the drunk.

01:01:19.940 Keep in mind, we're drawing this back to pregnancy.

01:01:21.720 So, it's not just, like, this one outcome.

01:01:23.760 Because you could consent to sex, but you don't have to consent to a relationship.

01:01:27.520 Or you don't have to consent to, like, engaging with each other past that point.

01:01:30.740 You consent to sex.

01:01:32.160 If you're saying that that means you're consenting to every possible outcome of why,

01:01:36.260 then you're saying being in a bar is consenting to every possible outcome of being in a bar.

01:01:40.900 So, again, what is the problem if you're in a bar and someone comes and shoves tequila down your throat?

01:01:45.440 So, you're saying consent is a matter of willing, right?

01:01:50.500 That's what you just said?

01:01:51.140 Partially, yes.

01:01:52.020 Okay.

01:01:52.440 And so, how does one will?

01:01:55.620 Will presupposes thought, right?

01:01:59.380 Intelli.

01:01:59.660 If you're consciously willing something, enthusiastically consenting, then you're reasoning about that thing

01:02:04.980 and determining, is this going to be good for me, bad for me, true, false, whatever.

01:02:08.200 Okay.

01:02:08.720 So, to consent, you need to have reasonably solid faculties of will, which presupposes a reasonably solid faculty of reason.

01:02:17.800 And if you don't have reasonably solid faculties, then it's not consent.

01:02:21.140 That's the thing.

01:02:21.900 That's why animals...

01:02:22.300 Even if you're in a bar and you don't have reason and you don't have your faculties about you, you drinking or you being in a bar still isn't consenting.

01:02:29.340 And when we are in the proximity of sin, when we're in the throes of lust or gluttony or whatever...

01:02:35.520 Well, first of all, again, I don't want to bring us all the way back to a meta-ethical conversation,

01:02:39.760 but you would need to even substantiate that sin is a real thing that exists and that is your...

01:02:44.940 And it's the sin that you believe in.

01:02:46.060 It's the actions that you believe in that are sin and not any other religion.

01:02:49.700 You need to deduce that via reason and evidence.

01:02:52.860 And then after you establish that, could you only then say that being in near instances of sin is...

01:02:58.000 But you don't even make that logical...

01:03:00.380 Do you think that some things are better or worse than other things?

01:03:04.160 Yeah.

01:03:04.920 Okay.

01:03:05.340 So then we agree that there is such a thing, morality, as morality, and there's such a thing as virtue and...

01:03:10.360 There's such a thing as morality, there's such a thing as virtue, but if you're telling me...

01:03:13.320 And therefore sin, too.

01:03:14.300 Yeah, but if no, because if you're telling me that wearing mixed fabrics is a sin, well, I can disagree with you there.

01:03:21.840 I don't think...

01:03:22.340 It might be a sartorial sin, but it's not a moral sin.

01:03:24.360 I mean...

01:03:24.680 Do you know what sin is?

01:03:25.400 I mean, that's a commandment.

01:03:26.820 What do you mean is sartorial sin?

01:03:27.780 Don't wear mixed fabrics?

01:03:28.980 Yeah.

01:03:29.400 Oh, well, to understand the Christian religion, one needs to understand it in the light of the incarnation and the crucifixion and the resurrection and the history of the church,

01:03:36.620 which is the rock on which our Lord built his church, against which the gates of hell will not prevail.

01:03:42.300 So there are certain ritual laws of the Old Testament nation of Israel.

01:03:46.980 There are certain moral laws.

01:03:48.580 So there are different kinds of laws that are prescribed in the books of the Bible, which could be a long conversation in itself.

01:03:57.320 But you've just said that there's good and bad, and so therefore there has to be sin, because sin is merely privation of the good.

01:04:02.940 That, again, I don't think that sin exists.

01:04:07.000 That's my thing.

01:04:07.560 I don't think that...

01:04:07.920 But you said good exists.

01:04:08.880 Yeah, I think there's good and bad.

01:04:10.440 Do you think that something could be deprived of good?

01:04:13.400 What do you mean by deprived?

01:04:14.860 Would something be bad?

01:04:17.260 Yes, things can be good and bad.

01:04:18.280 Then you agree that sin exists.

01:04:19.320 That doesn't mean that sin exists.

01:04:21.420 Well, that's the definition of sin.

01:04:22.980 Again, you can say it's...

01:04:24.540 Yeah, because sin is a specific religious concept.

01:04:27.440 So if you're saying that bad exists...

01:04:29.340 It's just a concept.

01:04:29.780 I'm saying there are many things that are bad that aren't sin.

01:04:32.720 If I'm walking next to somebody, and they're in a wheelchair, and there's a ramp, right?

01:04:38.140 And I could go up the stairs that's right next to them, but I choose to run in front of them and go up the ramp.

01:04:42.180 That's not a sin.

01:04:43.320 I can look at someone who does that and be like, you're able-bodied.

01:04:46.900 The stairs are right there.

01:04:47.980 You didn't have to cut the person in line and go run up the ramp, and they obviously need the ramp to be used right now.

01:04:52.600 You could have walked up the stairs.

01:04:53.780 That's not sin.

01:04:55.280 That's just a bad thing.

01:04:56.820 You don't think it's sinful to injure a disabled person?

01:05:02.160 How is that injuring?

01:05:03.560 I said walking up the stairs in front of them.

01:05:05.380 No, you cut them off.

01:05:06.820 Yeah.

01:05:07.120 That's what you're saying.

01:05:07.680 Yeah, I don't mean cut them off as in like push them out the way.

01:05:10.960 I'm just saying like if you guys have...

01:05:12.480 Yeah, you could just cut around them, go up the stairs, and you didn't need to go up the ramp.

01:05:16.680 But you're not inconveniencing them.

01:05:18.840 You just said you're not injuring them at all.

01:05:20.120 Yeah, what do you mean by...

01:05:21.760 Do you mean physical injure, or do you mean like tort law type injure, where it's like any damages or...

01:05:27.580 I just mean to harm them in any way, you know?

01:05:29.280 Well, I wouldn't say...

01:05:30.140 Inconveniencing them for their meeting, or...

01:05:32.040 Yeah, I could say that it would be an inconvenience to them, and I could also like put my moral thing on it.

01:05:36.120 Again, like legality, morality, that's a whole other thing.

01:05:38.360 I don't think it should be illegal for people who are able-bodied to walk up the ramp, but I can say morally, that's not my most favorite action.

01:05:44.840 You could have walked up the stairs just fine, but you chose to cut in front of this person who needs the ramp now

01:05:48.860 to put yourself ahead of them when you had a whole other option that wouldn't even get in their way.

01:05:53.360 So I can say that that's bad, but that's not a sin.

01:05:56.780 And sin is dictated by religious creed, and it's set out specifically in Christianity with the various things that are sins.

01:06:06.440 But that doesn't mean that everyone else is...

01:06:08.520 Or that doesn't mean that there's things that you can't do that are bad that aren't sins,

01:06:12.080 or things that we can consider good that maybe...

01:06:14.380 Like wearing white after Labor Day.

01:06:15.720 That would be bad, but it's not a sin.

01:06:16.980 But it's like, I don't think that when we say that something is sin, or a near occasion of sin,

01:06:24.840 therefore means that you're consenting to being drunk by being in a bar.

01:06:28.420 That's a logical leap that you would need to even prove that sin exists first.

01:06:32.000 And by you trying to prove it by saying, well, good and bad exist,

01:06:34.320 that doesn't mean that your religious concept of sin exists.

01:06:37.520 You would need to substantiate that first.

01:06:39.380 Well, right.

01:06:40.220 Sin, or religion rather, is, as I said, just giving God what he deserves.

01:06:45.200 That's what religion most...

01:06:46.020 Religion is the thing that presupposes that God is a thing that you can give what you deserve.

01:06:49.840 Well, it certainly also presupposes that God exists.

01:06:52.020 Yeah.

01:06:52.340 So, no, so that's what I'm saying.

01:06:54.020 It's like, you can't say that, you can't define religion as giving God what he will,

01:06:58.780 but that's the whole thing.

01:07:00.680 You're kind of sneaking the definition in without substantiating it.

01:07:03.480 Yeah, no, yes, religions orient themselves toward God.

01:07:08.620 That's true.

01:07:09.500 So, if you're an atheist...

01:07:10.800 So, it's a belief system that orients itself towards a God or tries to theorize about God or gods.

01:07:17.180 Yeah, it just, yeah, it acknowledges that God exists.

01:07:19.540 Yeah.

01:07:19.860 Well, no, belief, it's a belief that God does exist.

01:07:22.840 You see what I mean there?

01:07:24.320 It's a true opinion.

01:07:24.960 I know that you see what I mean there because I know you're a smart guy.

01:07:27.860 So, I know that, like, your rhetorical strategies can be on point.

01:07:31.120 But the thing is, if you're saying that...

01:07:32.040 Why do you think they're on point?

01:07:33.000 I think it's on point because a lot of people who are watching this who don't really...

01:07:37.260 Who might not like me or might not be too versed.

01:07:39.300 Maybe they do like you.

01:07:40.180 Or maybe...

01:07:40.600 Maybe they do.

01:07:41.220 But a lot of them who might not be too versed on, like, rhetorical strategies can see

01:07:44.540 because they believe.

01:07:45.820 It's like, yeah, it's just acknowledging that God exists.

01:07:47.080 Why do you think my rhetoric is persuasive in this case?

01:07:49.480 Is it perhaps because it's well-reasoned?

01:07:51.480 No.

01:07:52.240 It's not at all.

01:07:53.020 I think it's because of the way that you say things.

01:07:54.580 If you would let me finish explaining why I think it's on point.

01:07:56.840 I think because when you just said it right there, you said it's acknowledging that God

01:08:00.220 exists, right?

01:08:01.060 Yeah.

01:08:01.620 That's because it's a common sense statement to you and to your audience.

01:08:04.560 If you say religion is acknowledging that God exists, that, of course, they're going

01:08:08.740 to say, yeah, because I believe that God exists.

01:08:10.660 And if you're religious, you acknowledge that God exists.

01:08:12.860 But you kind of leaped past, which is why it's not reasonable or sound.

01:08:16.240 You leap past the part where, wait, do we really know that a God exists?

01:08:19.740 And if we do, how do we demonstrate?

01:08:21.760 Well, here's how we demonstrate.

01:08:22.900 Things are in motion, right?

01:08:24.620 We're in motion.

01:08:25.300 You and I are in motion.

01:08:26.280 Yes.

01:08:26.400 The Earth is in motion.

01:08:27.740 The stars are in motion.

01:08:28.760 The galaxies are in motion.

01:08:31.720 Things in motion do not put themselves into motion.

01:08:35.620 So, like, for instance, if I had a ball here, I could take this ball and I could throw it

01:08:40.020 at another ball on that desk over there.

01:08:42.760 And then that ball, this ball that was moving that I threw would hit the other ball and that

01:08:46.640 ball would fall down on the ground.

01:08:47.800 It would roll.

01:08:48.380 And that ball would maybe roll over, I don't know, another little tiny ball on the ground

01:08:51.960 and it would keep, you would see things continue to move as a consequence of those actions.

01:08:56.500 So, we can go back and say, well, Michael, how did you start moving?

01:08:59.260 And I'll tell you how I started moving because my mother and father loved each other one night

01:09:02.440 and they created me.

01:09:03.500 And how did that, and you can go back through all of these actions that caused movement.

01:09:09.420 But ultimately, you're going to have to come to an unmoved mover who is God.

01:09:14.680 Or no, you could actually, so it could be an unmoved mover.

01:09:18.580 It could be that there's a finite amount.

01:09:21.120 It reduces by finite amounts, the amount of movement.

01:09:23.840 So, in that ball analogy, when you throw the ball and it hits another ball, it would be slowly

01:09:27.900 slowing down because of the force of friction.

01:09:30.680 So, it could be something that was moving or maybe has the potential to be moved that

01:09:34.800 just hasn't been actualized yet.

01:09:36.440 It doesn't need to be an unmovable mover.

01:09:38.780 And if it is, I'm not saying, I'm saying, the unmoved mover is at the beginning.

01:09:42.500 Yeah, I'm saying, yeah, it doesn't, I'm saying the beginning doesn't need to be an unmoved mover.

01:09:45.680 And if it is, and if we're, if it is, and we're bringing it back to a God perspective,

01:09:51.080 then if God is the same today, tomorrow, always, and is the unmoved mover,

01:09:57.480 then what does prayer do?

01:09:58.940 So, think about it.

01:10:00.660 If God is changing their mind about something, not changing their mind, but say I call to,

01:10:05.200 say I pray to God, say I pray to God about something, right?

01:10:07.640 I want him to fulfill something for me.

01:10:08.980 I want him to make my water into wine right here.

01:10:12.280 Let's say that I pray to God for that.

01:10:14.960 He'd have to do something that he wasn't doing already in order to make that happen.

01:10:19.260 You'd have to answer my prayer, correct?

01:10:20.940 But God, if God were to exist, God would be the creator of all things, by definition.

01:10:27.220 Yeah.

01:10:27.760 So, God would create not only space, but time, right?

01:10:32.160 So, God would necessarily be outside of space and outside of time.

01:10:36.200 Oh, he wouldn't necessarily.

01:10:38.200 He could.

01:10:38.940 Again, we're talking about—

01:10:39.940 If he's the maker of all things, then he made time.

01:10:41.260 Well, I mean, if he's the maker of all things, he could make time, but he could also make himself subject to time.

01:10:45.820 Because, again, this is the power of a God we're talking about.

01:10:48.060 We're operating on the framework that, as we understand time, the thing that has to create time has to be outside of it.

01:10:53.220 But like I was saying—

01:10:54.080 God does enter into time in the Incarnation.

01:10:56.320 Yeah, but like—

01:10:56.960 You've arrived at an important distinction between Christianity and—

01:10:58.580 Hold on, hold on.

01:10:59.240 Before we get to the distinction, I want to press down on the fact that if God has created this water right here,

01:11:05.240 this water currently is not wine.

01:11:07.140 It doesn't matter at which point he decides to make it wine, he has to decide to make it wine.

01:11:10.940 That is, in a sense, the unmoved mover moving.

01:11:16.100 Because you have to be in a state of mind to, okay, I made this.

01:11:18.800 This is water.

01:11:19.480 I now want this to be wine.

01:11:21.080 That is you making a decision.

01:11:22.560 You are changing your mind about something.

01:11:23.860 If that's the case, then God has to be a moved mover.

01:11:28.560 Because you cannot say that, oh, well, you know what?

01:11:31.360 He's just an unmoved mover, but I'm going to pray to him and he's going to do something for me that he hasn't already done

01:11:35.640 because he has to change something about himself in order to do that thing.

01:11:38.820 Well, our lives unfold in history.

01:11:41.380 And the way to understand God's relationship to history is through a concept of providence.

01:11:48.200 Christianity is especially an historical understanding of God because God takes on human flesh in the incarnation

01:11:54.700 and then lives for 33 years and then is crucified.

01:11:57.060 And then on the third day rises again from the dead and then he's on earth for 40 days and then he ascends up into heaven

01:12:01.720 and sends the Holy Spirit to his church, which is the visible expression of God's kingdom here on earth.

01:12:07.720 So I am with you in God's role in history.

01:12:11.340 But the error you've made is that you have forced God to be subject to time before God made time.

01:12:18.020 No, I'm saying, but again, this is assuming that he did any of those things, but I'm saying how do you know

01:12:22.620 that he couldn't have made himself subject to that time?

01:12:25.680 How do we know that it's outside of the possibility of a God to both create time and create himself in the time?

01:12:34.100 How do we know that one has to precede another for operating on the framework of God?

01:12:39.080 Because the creator has to precede the created.

01:12:42.580 Yeah, but that's...

01:12:43.380 Space time is created.

01:12:44.760 It's part of the physical creation.

01:12:45.980 Well, does it have to?

01:12:47.200 Again, we're talking about God here.

01:12:48.660 If I create something, I have to precede that thing.

01:12:51.860 If God creates something, we don't know what God can do.

01:12:54.740 We're here talking about abortion and life and everything in our aspect.

01:12:57.520 Apparently, there are angels and everything that are subject to a completely different realm when it comes to life and how they perceive it.

01:13:04.120 Subject to God's sovereignty.

01:13:05.460 No, no, I'm saying, yeah, I mean, of course, but I'm saying that we, for all we know, life could be created in a billion different ways.

01:13:13.240 It doesn't even just have to be the way we came about.

01:13:15.920 If we have angels, we have other things up in a different realm in heaven, that's life.

01:13:20.180 Please don't get into the aliens.

01:13:21.760 No, no, I'm saying that's life, but it's subject to a completely different subsector rule.

01:13:25.380 So we're saying the way we internalize it is, well, obviously something has to precede this other thing, has to precede this other thing, has to precede this other thing.

01:13:32.760 That not only does not have to be the case with a God, even if that is the case, all it could imply is that there could be various things.

01:13:42.040 It could gradually decrease.

01:13:43.680 It doesn't have to be a singularity.

01:13:45.860 It could be a string of things that are kind of gradually going about.

01:13:49.700 It doesn't even have to.

01:13:50.400 It could be an infinite regress.

01:13:51.020 Yeah, things develop in history.

01:13:52.180 It could be an infinite regress for all we care.

01:13:54.260 We don't know.

01:13:55.160 It can't be that.

01:13:56.180 How?

01:13:56.560 Why can't it not?

01:13:57.100 Because there has to be an unmoved mover.

01:14:00.200 Or I'll give you an, let's say, if this doesn't persuade you.

01:14:03.140 Okay, so if that's, if we're looking at change, right, if we're talking about an unmoved mover or whatever, how is it that change is just conceptualized as just something proceeding after another, right?

01:14:14.740 We could, change could be a change in color, a change in property of something, right?

01:14:18.320 We could say that something created something or whatever, and it wasn't even necessarily just a progression of it.

01:14:24.840 It just kind of shifted in color, or it gradually decreases, or anything, any of the above possibilities.

01:14:31.400 So we're talking about a God here.

01:14:33.000 For you to assume that because one thing must cause another, must cause another, must cause another, and we can't have it go on forever.

01:14:39.880 I'm just saying they did.

01:14:40.380 Yeah, right.

01:14:41.140 The things that happen now, just by definition, has followed the thing that immediately preceded it.

01:14:49.400 Yeah.

01:14:49.880 In our world, yes.

01:14:51.460 So I'm saying if we're working within the scope of a God, we have no idea what laws or, or, or physical.

01:14:57.600 Well, we do because we're made in the image and likeness of God.

01:14:59.460 That's how we can easily.

01:15:01.160 Well, but.

01:15:01.900 So you can't say that, well, I know this property about God, and God definitely has this property because I'm made in the image of God, and this is how it works.

01:15:08.800 But you're presupposing that that God even exists in the first place.

01:15:11.400 How do you know anything?

01:15:13.000 How do I know anything?

01:15:15.400 I usually analyze, like, I think the basis for knowing things is subject to evidence.

01:15:23.580 So basically, when I say I know that I'm, like, here, right, it's not like I pulled out a bunch of dictionaries, and I'm like, what is the definition of here?

01:15:31.720 It's a known fact about the world that people exist.

01:15:34.860 And I'm.

01:15:35.440 How do you know that?

01:15:36.780 Because we can see that.

01:15:37.820 We can observe people.

01:15:38.720 How do you know that what you're seeing is real and not just a hallucination?

01:15:42.880 That's a big question.

01:15:44.060 I don't think you truly can know that.

01:15:45.960 I think I can know with a fair amount.

01:15:47.280 But you're very confident in your opinions.

01:15:48.900 I think that.

01:15:49.460 But you just said you're not confident that you know anything at all.

01:15:50.780 And I'm also confident in the things that I don't know.

01:15:53.140 I think it's confidence being able to say when you don't know a thing.

01:15:55.900 I think that.

01:15:56.460 But what you've just said is you don't know for certain that you know anything at all.

01:15:59.580 I don't think you can know anything for certain.

01:16:01.160 Oh, well, I think you can.

01:16:02.140 I'm reasonably certain that you cannot know anything, everything for certain.

01:16:06.420 Well, of course not.

01:16:07.320 But I'm not asking if you can know everything.

01:16:09.320 I'm asking if you can know anything.

01:16:10.960 Anything for certain.

01:16:12.040 You can know it to a degree of certainty.

01:16:13.760 I think you can get infinitely close to like that 100.

01:16:16.420 You can get 99.999.

01:16:17.760 Okay.

01:16:18.080 How can you get that close?

01:16:19.320 How can you get that close?

01:16:19.880 Evidence.

01:16:20.200 How do you know that you can rely on the evidence that you're seeing?

01:16:24.340 Well, I think that knowing that I can rely on the evidence that I'm seeing,

01:16:28.720 I can always like see evidence that leads me astray.

01:16:31.320 But it's a process of like mental reasoning that you can see various things that lead up

01:16:36.720 or that give good warrant to believe in a certain proposition.

01:16:40.320 That doesn't by default mean that that proposition is true.

01:16:43.080 If you're going to go for the brain in a vat, it could all be a simulation.

01:16:46.240 We genuinely don't have an answer to that.

01:16:47.740 I'm not saying.

01:16:48.200 I'm not even asking.

01:16:48.740 I'm asking, how do you know that you can rely on your faculty of reason

01:16:55.820 to communicate to you the truth?

01:16:58.620 Because I think that—

01:17:00.360 How do you know that your reason is dependable?

01:17:03.140 I think my reason is dependable, or I know my reason is dependable

01:17:06.520 because of things like evidence.

01:17:08.980 So when I look at, when I'm analyzing, yeah, so I'm saying,

01:17:12.500 when you're building your reason, right,

01:17:15.060 why would you have reason to believe something?

01:17:16.900 Well, I know the things that I have to operate within me right now.

01:17:21.420 I know that I have articles that I can read about abortion.

01:17:24.460 I know I have studies and everything.

01:17:26.660 But I'm asking one step further back than that.

01:17:28.840 Yeah, I'm saying, I can say that like, oh, well, I don't know this for certain.

01:17:33.440 Again, that can track back to literally everything.

01:17:35.920 Maybe I'm not asking the question properly.

01:17:38.180 I'm not asking how you have an opinion about abortion.

01:17:40.560 I'm asking how you trust that any opinion you reach,

01:17:46.780 that any perception you have about anything is reliable

01:17:49.940 and has some accordance with reality.

01:17:52.280 So that's the, again, that's the brain in the vat question.

01:17:55.040 Because what you're saying is, how do you even,

01:17:57.700 so if I say, I think that that cup has, or this cup has water in it.

01:18:02.820 And you're saying, well, how do you know that?

01:18:04.000 And I'm like, well, we know that water exists.

01:18:06.240 We have the molecular makeup, whatever.

01:18:08.120 And you're like, well, how do you know you can rely on molecular makeup?

01:18:10.700 I'm like, well, there's a science,

01:18:11.700 there's a field of scientists that have broken down the composition of water.

01:18:15.040 And you're like, well, how do you know what I'm saying?

01:18:16.920 And you're saying, well, how do you know that you can even rely on that?

01:18:20.480 And it's like, well, truthfully,

01:18:21.800 I don't think you can know anything for 100%,

01:18:23.860 but you can work within the framework that you're operating in.

01:18:27.760 It's an axiom, right?

01:18:28.540 It's an axiom that you're just beginning with.

01:18:30.100 So what you're beginning with is precisely where I begin,

01:18:32.620 which is that you are made in the image and likeness of God,

01:18:34.620 and the defining picture about you is your reason.

01:18:36.640 So you're saying that the only,

01:18:38.100 What do you think it means to be made in the image and likeness of God?

01:18:39.600 So wait, okay, wait.

01:18:40.460 So, and it's funny because this argument doesn't even support theism.

01:18:43.580 Because you could be created in the image and likeness of a God,

01:18:47.140 but what's to say that that God is the reason for why you have reason?

01:18:49.940 What do you think the phrase being made in the image and likeness of God means?

01:18:54.580 Literally whatever people who believe in a God want it to mean.

01:18:57.940 Well, what do you think it means?

01:18:59.120 Christians even disagree about this in the same way.

01:19:01.220 It could be, oh, well, we are just like God.

01:19:04.140 We can be co-eternal with God if we take the right steps.

01:19:06.660 No.

01:19:06.840 Or it could be there's Christian science.

01:19:09.020 No, it's not Christian scientists.

01:19:10.380 It's a, ooh, I forgot what the religious denomination of Christianity is,

01:19:14.820 but they do actually believe that.

01:19:16.440 They have like a, is it Mormons?

01:19:17.840 They have a father-mother God, and they believe that each of them can become like God,

01:19:22.100 but they can never excel to the level of God.

01:19:23.960 That's just their personal belief.

01:19:25.320 Well, what would it mean to, what would it mean?

01:19:27.760 It's funny.

01:19:28.040 Well, I don't, the thing is, I don't know what that is.

01:19:30.280 You don't know the answer.

01:19:30.840 So the answer is a reason.

01:19:31.680 Because I don't believe it.

01:19:33.380 Okay, but you can know things about things that you don't believe.

01:19:36.140 So whatever properties, whatever properties you,

01:19:38.360 what I think that being made in the image and likeness of God is,

01:19:40.540 is whatever properties you attribute to that God,

01:19:43.120 you guys share similar properties.

01:19:44.220 It's not a trick question.

01:19:44.860 No, that's what I'm, that's what my answer is.

01:19:47.040 It's whatever, whatever.

01:19:47.860 There's a more specific answer, which is our intellect and our will, our reason.

01:19:50.800 That is what it means to be made.

01:19:52.340 That's the answer that you believe is the case.

01:19:54.100 Because you could very well believe,

01:19:56.160 no, you could very well believe in your God.

01:19:58.100 And people who believe in a different God than you could believe,

01:20:00.140 could believe that being made in the image of them is a completely subset,

01:20:03.120 different subset of categories and attributes that we attribute to ourselves.

01:20:06.860 Again, you would need to demonstrate that yours is the one and only correct one first,

01:20:11.140 before you base your axiom off of all that because you're just working off a big assumption.

01:20:15.000 No matter how deeply you believe it, at the end of the day, it is one big assumption.

01:20:19.400 And at least I can show you progress and steps to where I can get to know.

01:20:23.380 You can't, though.

01:20:23.400 You can't.

01:20:23.820 You just said that you have to assume that your reason is reliable.

01:20:27.780 You have to take that merely as an assumption, as a premise to start with.

01:20:31.460 You can.

01:20:31.640 You can test that.

01:20:32.500 If I come up with various conclusions, say if we wanted to know something,

01:20:36.380 say if we wanted to know what water is, right?

01:20:38.980 And if we came up with a criteria by which we measure that,

01:20:42.640 and the chemical composition and everything, right?

01:20:44.460 And we see we studied the water cycle.

01:20:47.060 We study everything that has to do with water.

01:20:49.140 And we come up with predictions on, okay, well, given these circumstances,

01:20:53.540 water should act like this.

01:20:54.720 If we got all our properties down and we reasoned through this and we knew this correctly,

01:20:58.900 we were able to know something correctly,

01:21:00.520 then given that, water should act like this in this given circumstances.

01:21:04.840 We have yet to be wrong about that.

01:21:06.760 I don't know if water can just go from freezing to just like vanish in an instant.

01:21:10.260 It could, but we have no demonstration of that.

01:21:12.500 All we have is a pattern of research and understanding to this point

01:21:15.920 that shows that we're able to make predictions and see this is actually how this is working.

01:21:21.120 So with that in mind, we can say, okay, this is fairly reasonable.

01:21:24.540 We can rely on this.

01:21:26.000 If we were just looking at it as like, well, water is clear,

01:21:27.980 which means it must be, have some property of becoming invisible.

01:21:31.760 Well, we can say, oh, yeah, well, I think that that's the case.

01:21:35.220 But if it continuously gets proven wrong and it never happens, then that's not a reasonable thing.

01:21:39.500 But you're, you're.

01:21:40.620 If you're going to ask me, how do we know that patterns are reasonable?

01:21:43.540 Or how do you know?

01:21:44.420 I mean, to use the example that you like coming back to,

01:21:46.360 how do you know that you're not just, you know, living in a video game or something?

01:21:49.760 Again, I don't think that.

01:21:50.320 That would be an assumption.

01:21:51.640 It's just a premise.

01:21:52.260 I don't know if I would, I don't know if, like, I think that I wouldn't call it an assumption

01:21:58.200 or I wouldn't call it a premise or anything because I don't genuinely think that you can

01:22:01.680 know that.

01:22:02.260 But you live as though you're not just going to be a video game.

01:22:04.100 I don't think that you, I don't think that.

01:22:04.500 You live as though things are significant.

01:22:06.500 I don't think that, even if your brain was in a vat, I don't think that that means that

01:22:09.380 the things we're experiencing aren't significant.

01:22:11.240 That's one of the things that gets back to God.

01:22:12.900 I think if we're living even without a God, I don't think that that means that everything

01:22:15.580 is insignificant.

01:22:16.060 But you live as though your faculties of reason are dependable and that you're not being perpetually

01:22:20.520 deceived.

01:22:20.920 Well, yeah.

01:22:22.060 And you talk about perpetually deceived.

01:22:24.340 How do you determine you're not being perpetually deceived?

01:22:27.300 I think you're lying if you don't realize that it's analyzing the things that are at your

01:22:31.200 disposal and making predictions and analyzing.

01:22:33.300 You just, yeah, you have to take it, you have to be with that premise.

01:22:35.800 But if you're going to say, because we 100% don't know for certain that everything around

01:22:40.580 us is a figment of our imagination, therefore we're operating on faith and that faith is the

01:22:44.280 same faith as this God who apparently has told you everything you need to do and could never

01:22:47.920 be wrong despite the fact that everyone else believes in different gods.

01:22:50.320 That's not quite what I'm saying.

01:22:51.220 But it's close.

01:22:52.000 You're trying to draw that.

01:22:53.160 No, it's close.

01:22:53.840 What I'm saying is that there are many different modes of inquiry, of philosophical deliberation,

01:23:02.000 scientific inquiry, and a whole number of manner of inquiry.

01:23:04.820 But they all have to begin with intuitive reasoning and with the assumption of premises in the

01:23:10.640 same way that mathematics has to begin with a set of assumptions, A plus B equals B plus

01:23:15.540 A.

01:23:15.780 You can't prove that, but those are some of the axioms.

01:23:19.040 You can't prove that once you test it.

01:23:20.280 If I say, if I say, if I say, if I say, if I say, if I say 2 plus 2 equals 4, right?

01:23:27.260 Again, we can say that the number system that we developed for it is like a figment of language.

01:23:33.080 But the principle, if you have two objects and you add two more objects and you count them

01:23:37.480 But I'm saying even more axiomatically.

01:23:39.060 Yeah.

01:23:39.280 You have to begin with 3 plus 2 equals 2 plus 3, for instance.

01:23:41.860 Yeah, so if we did that, then we could run experiments or tests to make sure this formula

01:23:47.900 applies in every scenario.

01:23:49.500 We shouldn't get 3 plus 2 equals 1 plus 7.

01:23:53.160 We shouldn't get that at any given point if our things are working correctly.

01:23:56.260 Let me see if I can press this.

01:23:57.580 If we continue to get these same answers and we continue to not be proven wrong in these

01:24:01.780 same things, you can know with a higher degree of certainty whether or not you're correct

01:24:04.640 about that.

01:24:05.000 If you can know anything at all.

01:24:05.860 You could never know for sure that everything around you is a figment, but even if everything

01:24:09.540 is around you is a figment, you still know things within that figment.

01:24:13.100 And it's not necessarily like the same leap of faith.

01:24:15.280 You just don't know it, but you could be deceived at any point.

01:24:17.580 You wouldn't necessarily rely on, say, continuity, that the world you're living in today is the

01:24:21.980 same world that existed in 2 seconds.

01:24:23.340 But my thing is that you can't know that either.

01:24:26.200 You say you can.

01:24:27.180 Right, I'm just beginning with certain premises and then using my reason based on this premise.

01:24:32.020 Yeah, and if we're going to begin with certain premises and everything, what would be more

01:24:35.840 of being deceived?

01:24:37.500 Us, in reality, all being brains and vats.

01:24:40.360 But not only do I, I'm comfortable with saying, I don't know that for certain, but here's these

01:24:44.600 things I can work with.

01:24:45.580 Whereas you say, well, no, we're not a brain and a vat.

01:24:47.900 I know this story, and this story is the one true story, and everyone else's stories are

01:24:51.760 wrong.

01:24:52.380 Greatest story I ever told you, Michael.

01:24:53.660 Yeah, greatest story you ever told.

01:24:55.140 So it's like, which one would be more of a level of deceit?

01:24:58.660 You could say that it's just...

01:24:59.480 The one that's real.

01:24:59.940 The one that's true.

01:25:00.940 Would be, the one that's true would be the true...

01:25:03.060 No, no, no, the one that's real and true would be the real and true one, and the one that's

01:25:06.660 a deceit would be the deceit.

01:25:07.700 But even, so say like truth is, say the truth is that our brains are in a vat, and we can

01:25:12.140 never necessarily obtain that truth, right?

01:25:14.900 Because we don't really have a way of proving that we're not in a vat.

01:25:17.460 I feel like my position of, okay, here's what we're working at.

01:25:21.360 Let's try to make these observations, see where it gets us.

01:25:23.780 Okay, this is leading here.

01:25:24.900 Okay, maybe we can predict this.

01:25:26.260 Maybe we can predict that.

01:25:27.220 I think using that method of reasoning is infinitely more likely to get you closer to the truth of the

01:25:32.760 matter, that being we find something that determines, oh, it must be a simulation, as opposed to the

01:25:38.520 belief system of, okay, well, I believe in this deity, and this is how this deity is telling me to act.

01:25:42.600 And you trying to make those equivalents in leaps, because we can't for sure know that's...

01:25:47.860 I think we're missing the point a little, so let me try...

01:25:50.520 We're way off the point.

01:25:51.600 I want to get back to abortion.

01:25:52.360 Let me try it a different way.

01:25:52.940 But on this point, to use a popular question, can a man become a woman?

01:26:02.600 That's a weird question to ask.

01:26:05.780 It's a weird question to ask.

01:26:06.500 It's kind of weird that we have to ask it, isn't it?

01:26:08.180 Well, no, because genders in different societies have always been fluid and have always worked.

01:26:13.660 So it's like when you ask, can a man become a woman?

01:26:16.560 And it's like, well, a person can become whatever they want, but it's like, if you're subscribing to the category of man, then unless you stop subscribing to that category...

01:26:25.680 A person can't become whatever he wants.

01:26:27.580 A person can't become a seagull, for instance.

01:26:30.580 So he can't become whatever he wants.

01:26:32.060 Yeah, yeah, because we have to stick within our species, as I understand.

01:26:34.460 That he can't physically become a seagull.

01:26:36.620 So I'm saying, can one sex become the opposite sex?

01:26:38.680 Man and woman is not objective in the fact that a seagull and a human is.

01:26:44.460 Those are completely different...

01:26:45.860 Yeah, and one we're talking about differences in species, and one we're talking about differences in sexes.

01:26:49.880 So my question is, can one sex become the opposite sex?

01:26:53.500 Can one sex become...

01:26:55.180 Can a man become a woman?

01:26:56.540 Can an individual man become an individual woman?

01:26:59.380 Yeah, if they were identifying as a man first, and then they said, nah, I'm going to shift up and I want to become a woman, then yes, they can.

01:27:05.280 But like the category of man...

01:27:07.680 You mean how?

01:27:08.560 How can that man become a woman?

01:27:10.380 So when it comes to sex, and when it comes to gender and everything, there are many different biological processes that go into determining one's sex, and then corresponding with that gender.

01:27:22.000 Someone could be biologically male, and their testicles could grow inside of them.

01:27:27.240 Because there's a...

01:27:28.520 I forgot what the specific gene is, but it doesn't bind to a specific receptor, and it doesn't release the right hormone.

01:27:33.980 So you end up developing the same body as a woman.

01:27:36.520 They have a deformity.

01:27:37.480 Well, not the same body.

01:27:38.380 You've got testosterone.

01:27:38.760 No, yeah.

01:27:40.080 As in like everything that, from an outside perspective looking at, everything that we'd associate with being a woman.

01:27:44.760 Broader hips, breasts, every, like all the physical attributes.

01:27:48.220 You could develop all that.

01:27:48.660 All the physical attributes?

01:27:49.980 Yeah.

01:27:50.540 Well, I mean, obviously outside of like a uterus or something.

01:27:53.100 But like you could, and even then there are women who don't.

01:27:55.180 But anyway, besides the point, you could develop all those things that would classify anyone in any other circumstance as a woman.

01:28:01.320 They're not all those things.

01:28:01.900 You've just admitted.

01:28:02.480 They're like the central essential things you're not developing.

01:28:05.960 Is your genitalia the central essential thing?

01:28:08.180 That's the differentiator between sex.

01:28:09.160 So what gender or what sex are...

01:28:12.120 So intersex people are real, correct?

01:28:14.620 Well, people have genital deformities and certain chromosomal deformities.

01:28:17.600 When you say genital deformities, that's kind of like...

01:28:21.820 Like what you just described.

01:28:22.780 No, but you're kind of assuming that that's like...

01:28:25.460 It's a defect.

01:28:26.040 Because it...

01:28:27.080 I wouldn't say necessarily it's a defect.

01:28:28.680 Because again, our genes and our hormones have all types of...

01:28:31.720 We are all born with like the same...

01:28:33.920 Like not the same possibility of becoming a man or a woman or a boy or a girl because you don't get born a man or a woman.

01:28:39.900 But like you're born with that same genetic code where if a receptor doesn't bind to a receptor or if it does or if you have XXY or whatever,

01:28:48.160 that significantly shifts what your outward presentation is going to be.

01:28:53.340 So if we're talking about what someone's gender is or what someone's sex is, there's always been variation.

01:28:58.940 In humans especially.

01:29:00.120 The categories that we...

01:29:01.320 There are the categories that we assign to those variations.

01:29:05.120 We can draw a box around it.

01:29:06.580 But us drawing boxes around it is just trying to best understand to our ability.

01:29:10.400 But if there are people who are clearly fitting outside of those boxes, there is nothing wrong than just redrawing the box.

01:29:15.840 We always do that all the time.

01:29:16.980 Some people have deformities.

01:29:19.040 That's true.

01:29:19.880 And even though they can usually be pretty clearly classified, like if you have testicles, you're probably a man.

01:29:25.040 But you just said something different.

01:29:26.540 If you have testicles, you're a male.

01:29:28.560 Yeah.

01:29:29.220 But the category of man is something that we ascribe to the people who are traditionally male.

01:29:33.600 That's what I'm saying.

01:29:34.600 Right.

01:29:35.000 A man is a male human adult.

01:29:37.440 Well, a man would be...

01:29:39.620 It can be like, again, a man corresponds to the category of male human adult.

01:29:44.280 Right.

01:29:44.600 But it's not is that thing.

01:29:46.440 There are more things than just being a male human adult that makes you a man.

01:29:49.500 If I were to go on, like, Jesse Lee Peterson's show, and I'm talking to him about how I, like, respect women or something, he could call me a beta.

01:29:56.900 A beta male.

01:29:57.520 I'm less of a male.

01:29:57.960 But he wouldn't call you a woman.

01:29:59.280 He could call me womanly.

01:30:00.440 He's called people on multiple occasions.

01:30:02.260 A woman...

01:30:02.660 He said he's...

01:30:03.520 No, I'm pretty sure he would call me a woman because he's literally...

01:30:05.860 He would call you maybe womanish.

01:30:06.340 He wouldn't think you're an actual woman.

01:30:07.200 Well, he has a lot of things going on.

01:30:08.820 So he could probably call me womanly, woman, all of the above.

01:30:11.160 He thinks people are liberal.

01:30:12.180 Womanish refers to a man who behaves in an effeminate way.

01:30:13.420 He thinks that people who are liberal are women or womanly anyway.

01:30:17.480 So he could call me all of the above.

01:30:19.140 The point being that the category of man is much more than just what chromosomal makeup you have.

01:30:24.540 Even in a society where you can say, oh, that's acting womanly.

01:30:28.280 There are societies that have existed prior to us and that currently exist today where roles are flipped.

01:30:33.220 Men will stay home and take care of children.

01:30:35.360 Women will go and kill and hunt and everything.

01:30:37.740 No, really.

01:30:38.260 Like, they say that.

01:30:39.140 Most hunter-gatherer societies have been intensely egalitarian.

01:30:42.140 We have this notion that it's always been the big, strong man going out to...

01:30:45.440 That's not even, like, a realistic expectation because if your big, strong man is always the one going out to hunt,

01:30:51.200 that means they're always the most likely one to die, and then you die out with that strategy.

01:30:55.860 As opposed to if you all work together, which is why we're such a social species.

01:30:59.500 That's been established.

01:31:01.140 So you would send the women, the weaker sex, out to hunt?

01:31:03.440 There are societies that do that all the time.

01:31:05.460 There aren't really.

01:31:07.500 What do you mean there aren't really?

01:31:09.480 Have you read anything in anthropology?

01:31:12.360 Yeah.

01:31:13.280 And what book told you that there aren't really societies in which they...

01:31:17.380 There are the mythical Amazons in a few examples.

01:31:19.460 I'm pretty sure you could go on PBS and, like, the website and...

01:31:22.460 Which tribes would you point to in which the women go out?

01:31:25.020 Oh, for the life of me.

01:31:26.680 We studied multiple tribes in...

01:31:28.880 What is it?

01:31:29.920 It's, like, it's sub-Saharan Africa.

01:31:31.800 I know it's southern...

01:31:33.240 Is it in Ghana?

01:31:34.560 I forgot exactly what the name of the tribes were.

01:31:36.560 We had a whole chapter in my anthropology course where we talked about conceptions of gender and sexuality throughout different cultures.

01:31:45.000 And there's a...

01:31:46.040 I can't remember the name, and it's going to eat me alive.

01:31:48.020 But there are groups in which the women will hunt, like, and do the tackle and everything.

01:31:53.540 They do this...

01:31:54.300 They have another thing called...

01:31:56.040 It's kind of like self-deprivation where, like, if someone goes out and gets a kill, they won't brag about it.

01:32:02.020 If they brag about it, then the other people will, like, joke back at them, but in a fierce way to, like, diminish...

01:32:06.360 Humility is good.

01:32:06.840 Yeah, but, like, it's not even, like, you imposing your own humility.

01:32:09.500 It's, like, they will humble you if they feel like you're...

01:32:11.760 Because they all feel like that's the right answer.

01:32:13.140 Like, yeah, a lot of things that we do are correct or fit for our society because we believe that it is that way.

01:32:21.440 But that's not to say that there aren't societies in which people work together.

01:32:25.160 Even in our society, it's a lot more egalitarian in principle because we, women, can't just afford to sit at home and not work anymore as much as they used to.

01:32:33.340 We're all kind of working together to provide that income and make children get a better society and a better life that way.

01:32:39.180 I'm not sure they're getting a better society.

01:32:40.780 And also, someone has to take care of the women.

01:32:42.220 So usually what happens is the woman goes out to work and then makes some money and then pays some other woman to raise the kid at daycare.

01:32:47.120 So it's not like you've actually fixed that problem.

01:32:48.960 You've just changed the way the economy works.

01:32:50.580 That's an assumption.

01:32:51.700 But someone's got to raise the kids.

01:32:54.120 Yeah, well, I mean, yeah, both.

01:32:55.820 It could be a man at the daycare.

01:32:56.620 But if men and women are both at work, then who's raising the kid?

01:32:59.680 Yeah, I'm saying they both share time.

01:33:01.480 Or you could get a daycare.

01:33:02.500 No, they're both at work.

01:33:03.140 And even then, it doesn't necessarily need to be a woman taking care of the kids.

01:33:06.840 The reason why it is a woman is because we've socially assigned the role of caregiver to woman and of worker to men,

01:33:13.060 despite them both being capable of doing either job, which is what other societies have seen,

01:33:17.320 which is why both of them do each job.

01:33:18.540 You just can't name them right now.

01:33:20.020 Oh, no, I can't.

01:33:21.280 No, I can't.

01:33:22.140 All right.

01:33:22.560 So again, but again, I like the chuckle, and it is fun.

01:33:26.340 But if you genuinely do care about the issue, you can go look up gender diversity within species.

01:33:33.160 I'm sure that I'll find some Amazon tribes.

01:33:35.780 Literally Google gender diversity within human societies.

01:33:38.660 And just because they're Amazon, why do you keep saying Amazon?

01:33:40.560 Because that's the mythical tribe of female warriors.

01:33:43.540 That doesn't even need to.

01:33:45.280 No, it's not female warriors is not what I'm saying.

01:33:47.620 I'm saying egalitarian societies.

01:33:49.120 I thought you said the women go out and fight.

01:33:50.700 Yeah, I'm saying there are some societies where the women do that, but there's also more societies in which it's more an equal thing.

01:33:56.500 Even since we are cavemen, it's more of an equal thing.

01:33:58.980 So getting back to what we were just discussing, since you grant that a man can become a woman,

01:34:04.700 then getting back to even what we were previously talking about, how would that man know that he is a woman?

01:34:10.140 And how would you know that that man is a woman?

01:34:12.080 That's a completely societally formed thing.

01:34:14.040 So the way I would know that somebody who's a male doesn't want to be a man anymore, they want to be a woman,

01:34:20.700 I'd know by things like how they outwardly present.

01:34:23.400 Things like the type of societal roles they want to ascribe to over a different one.

01:34:27.440 Sometimes there's nothing, there's no rule saying women must have long hair.

01:34:31.060 But whenever people think of a woman, they usually think of somebody with long hair.

01:34:34.020 So if you want to subscribe to that role, a step people will take will be to grow out their hair or something.

01:34:38.560 Doesn't mean that they need to do it, but that's just something that we kind of assume is womenly,

01:34:42.200 despite the fact that there are many men with long hair.

01:34:44.880 There are certain roles that you can pick and you can choose.

01:34:47.600 I thought you said the roles don't matter and they're all just sort of socially assigned.

01:34:51.280 Just because they're socially assigned doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

01:34:53.320 Race has no root in biology, but the impacts of race are still felt.

01:34:57.540 What do you mean race has no root in biology?

01:35:00.540 I mean that it has no root in biology.

01:35:02.280 There's greater genealogical differences between members of a given race and members of completely different races.

01:35:08.240 Black people in the United States are the most diverse race when it comes to genealogical.

01:35:12.200 genealogical perspective because we live in a society where race is based on ancestry.

01:35:16.800 So if your great-great-grandpappy was black, you technically could be classified as black,

01:35:21.160 depending on how you present, despite the fact that I'm way darker than that person.

01:35:24.440 You're black and I'm at least vaguely white.

01:35:26.840 A little Sicilian, but I would be identified as white.

01:35:30.520 No one would be confused about that fact.

01:35:33.020 Even if I took on all the cultural attributes stereotypically associated with black people

01:35:38.380 and you did that for white people.

01:35:39.880 No one would be confused.

01:35:41.000 That's the conflation thing is that because two subjects are socially constructed

01:35:44.300 does not mean that they're socially constructed in the same way.

01:35:46.600 Of course.

01:35:46.820 There's not really like attributes that you could take on as a black person

01:35:50.440 that would make people confused about whether or not you're black

01:35:52.500 because the concept of being black is specific phenotypes that are dependent on heritage

01:35:59.520 and then also like...

01:36:01.060 You're talking about like your hair is different than my hair.

01:36:03.220 Yeah, like my hair.

01:36:03.740 Your bone structure is different than my bone structure.

01:36:05.340 Not even bone structure necessarily because there's not that much variation in bone structure,

01:36:08.920 at least in African Americans in the United States.

01:36:10.960 But I'm saying between different races.

01:36:12.820 Yeah, but the reason why no one would confuse you for being black

01:36:17.300 and no one would confuse me for being white and everything

01:36:19.660 is because the way we conceptualize race in today's society is,

01:36:23.700 well, this category, what I look like, certain attributes that I have classify as black.

01:36:27.380 Your body.

01:36:27.920 Yeah.

01:36:28.500 That's biological.

01:36:29.420 Yeah, no.

01:36:30.520 Your body is formed through biological process,

01:36:33.740 but the value and the terms and the boxes we draw are not biological.

01:36:37.780 So in Rome, in ancient Rome, it was either you were a Roman or you were a barbarian.

01:36:43.800 If you were a member of Roman society, if you were a Roman citizen or whatever,

01:36:47.960 you were considered a Roman.

01:36:49.120 They had different skin colors in Rome, but that doesn't mean that they didn't see it as race.

01:36:54.300 They saw that their race was Roman and every other race was barbarian.

01:36:59.640 There is no, they didn't say, oh, I'm black Roman, I'm brown Roman, I'm white Roman.

01:37:03.820 Those are boxes that we've drawn in American society.

01:37:06.360 Why do you think that isn't true?

01:37:08.020 Why do you think that?

01:37:08.500 How?

01:37:09.360 Well, there's a good book, came out in 2006,

01:37:12.120 on racism in ancient Greece and ancient Rome.

01:37:14.760 It's by Benjamin Isaac, who is a Princeton historian and classicist.

01:37:18.880 And he points out that the concepts of race and even racial hostility

01:37:23.760 were extraordinarily present in the ancient Roman and ancient Greek worlds.

01:37:28.200 And it goes back much earlier than that, actually.

01:37:29.580 It goes back to the Egyptian Book of Gates, which was written roughly 3,500 years ago.

01:37:35.660 In the Egyptian Book of Gates, you see a discussion of different races of people.

01:37:40.440 Not merely cultural differences, but races.

01:37:42.440 But what were the races?

01:37:43.300 So that's my thing.

01:37:43.780 Well, Libyan, Nubian, Egyptian.

01:37:48.260 I forget the fourth one.

01:37:49.620 But I'm saying-

01:37:50.040 No, no, no, this was 3,500 years ago.

01:37:51.380 Yeah, I'm saying race as we conceptualize it in this society.

01:37:55.820 The ancient-

01:37:56.300 Yeah, there can be other races in ancient society,

01:37:59.120 but their racial categories were not what our racial categories are.

01:38:02.640 And even then, I'm not going to dispute what the word of the historian is right now.

01:38:07.680 I'm going to look it up after it.

01:38:08.560 I guarantee you're probably misrepresenting it.

01:38:10.380 But assuming that you're not, I'm going to be charitable and assume that you're not.

01:38:13.920 When we talk about race in ancient times, a lot of times, at least from the scholarship that I've seen,

01:38:18.820 it's things they'll talk about like eye color and they'll do hair color.

01:38:21.920 But they wouldn't refer to it as, we are one united race and you guys are a different united race.

01:38:26.880 Because an empire conquered all that territory.

01:38:28.960 Yeah, so even from a logistical standpoint,

01:38:31.260 it's physically impossible for them to have the racial categories that we did today.

01:38:35.280 No, they still had racial categories, though.

01:38:37.520 Yeah.

01:38:37.660 This was true through the Middle Ages, too.

01:38:39.060 Yeah.

01:38:39.500 It's a myth.

01:38:40.380 There's a myth pushed by liberals, especially in this one book that was written by some random

01:38:45.640 op-ed journalist, the new Jim Crow, that suggested that race is a creation of the last couple

01:38:51.720 hundred years invented by white people.

01:38:53.260 No.

01:38:53.280 In the United States, it is.

01:38:55.120 The reason why is because...

01:38:56.280 The thesis goes even more ambitious than that and says, as you've been saying, that antiquity

01:39:00.040 didn't have conceptions of racial differences.

01:39:01.880 But that's not true.

01:39:02.880 No.

01:39:03.040 And through the Middle Ages, it's true.

01:39:04.100 You see it?

01:39:04.320 Even the Muslims?

01:39:05.000 No, they had...

01:39:05.960 No, what I'm saying is they had conceptualization of racial differences.

01:39:09.100 But the concept of race are completely different depending on society.

01:39:13.180 So, in Roman times, you could probably get away with being confused as being a Roman because

01:39:19.940 there were very specific things.

01:39:21.460 They weren't even like very specific things, but if they considered you a barbarian, it was

01:39:24.620 an outsider, somebody who isn't like us.

01:39:26.860 You could slip into a given society and assimilate enough to where it's like people could confuse

01:39:30.520 you as a Roman, but they'll never confuse you as black and me as white because in America,

01:39:35.480 the categories we have drawn is skin color and certain phenotypical features despite the

01:39:40.800 fact that we have gender and we have a genetic diversity across genders, I mean across races.

01:39:46.320 The thing is that those categories have always existed.

01:39:49.320 That doesn't mean that they're biologically rooted because a group of people is born with

01:39:53.480 blue eyes does not mean that the blue eyes is a thing that must be assigned value out of

01:39:59.420 some biological reason.

01:40:00.300 We assign value to it out of some...

01:40:02.320 Yeah, I'm not saying anything about value at all.

01:40:04.240 I'm just saying that...

01:40:05.520 That's how the racial category is.

01:40:06.580 But you're making an historical point that in antiquity through the Middle Ages,

01:40:10.420 people did not conceive of race based on these biological or phenotypical character...

01:40:15.060 I'm saying race is not biologically rooted.

01:40:17.000 I didn't say that there were no racial differences, but I said like in Rome, Roman was their race,

01:40:21.220 barbarian were other races.

01:40:22.380 But I'm saying that's not true.

01:40:23.760 And because I cited, for instance...

01:40:25.720 No, but what you cited was them saying there were racial differences.

01:40:29.560 And racial hostilities.

01:40:30.760 Yeah, again, but that does not...

01:40:32.620 I said there were, but it varies depending on the size.

01:40:35.300 But you were saying there was no distinction other than between Roman and barbarian.

01:40:39.080 I'm saying that is true.

01:40:40.320 I can grant the point that there are probably other distinctions besides just Roman and barbarian.

01:40:45.820 But I'm saying while there are racial differences throughout history,

01:40:49.240 the racial categories that we draw are societally based.

01:40:52.380 There is nothing inherent about black people that make them more likely to have negative stereotypes.

01:40:58.060 There's nothing inherent about white people that make them more likely to be a dominant group in society.

01:41:04.000 There's nothing inherent about the skin color of various Asian people,

01:41:07.700 even though that's not even consistent because we just classify them as Asian.

01:41:10.740 That makes them have whatever values we assign to Asian people.

01:41:14.520 Those are boxes that we drew.

01:41:16.280 Perfect example is Irish people.

01:41:18.180 Irish people in the early 1900s and late 1800s were not considered white.

01:41:22.080 They were pushed into the same...

01:41:23.200 That's not a disputable...

01:41:24.480 That's not even disputable.

01:41:25.640 They were.

01:41:25.880 That's not even disputable, Michael.

01:41:28.680 They were discriminated against and...

01:41:30.280 They weren't considered white.

01:41:31.620 You would have a better argument if you pointed to the Southern Italians.

01:41:34.780 For instance, the largest mass lynching in American history was against Italians in New Orleans.

01:41:39.280 You might say that in certain parts of the South,

01:41:41.020 they were considered lumped in as black rather than as white.

01:41:44.760 Even that is kind of overstated.

01:41:46.560 That's not overstated.

01:41:47.820 Based on?

01:41:49.440 Based on American history.

01:41:50.760 I mean, listen, I've...

01:41:51.320 I've sure looked at and researched a lot of American history and Irish people were not

01:41:57.920 considered in the same racial category as white people.

01:42:01.500 They were distinct from the English.

01:42:02.820 There's a certain thing, even if you go to Irish, if you go to Ireland now,

01:42:06.040 there's a thing called black Irish, right?

01:42:07.840 And that doesn't mean that they're actual black people.

01:42:09.860 They just like are Irish people with like slightly...

01:42:11.560 It's like a slightly tanner white.

01:42:13.640 But it's like even just that, just being of a different nationality

01:42:18.980 that wasn't considered conducive to broader white American culture deemed you as not being white.

01:42:24.320 Well, sort of.

01:42:24.820 In the same way that Barack Obama is...

01:42:25.820 There are different hostilities.

01:42:26.520 In the same way that Barack Obama is equally as white as he is black, but he's considered black.

01:42:31.180 Right.

01:42:31.880 Yeah, he didn't run as Barry Sotoro, which is the name he went by for much of his life.

01:42:35.640 He went as Barack Hussein Obama.

01:42:37.580 Yeah.

01:42:37.720 Because he thought that would give him an electoral advantage.

01:42:40.040 Well, I mean, it probably has something to do with both his dad on his African side doing that,

01:42:45.040 but I don't think he just changed...

01:42:46.080 But he went by a different name.

01:42:47.080 He went by Barry Sotoro.

01:42:47.900 He went by...

01:42:48.560 His nickname was Barry in his childhood.

01:42:50.340 I think he's always been named Barack.

01:42:52.660 No, but he didn't present himself that way.

01:42:54.600 My name is Joshua William Joseph.

01:42:56.840 I go by JJ.

01:42:57.940 If I said I'm going to go by Joshua Joseph on the ballot, that doesn't mean I'm trying to...

01:43:01.720 I'm deserting my name and I'm going with that name to get me an electoral advantage.

01:43:04.860 That's just my government name.

01:43:06.500 Look, politicians do this all the time.

01:43:08.060 His government name wasn't Barry is what I'm telling you.

01:43:10.000 That was his nickname.

01:43:10.960 Sure, so why did he go by a different name for much of his life?

01:43:12.940 Because he's running for...

01:43:14.060 I'm not going to run for president as JJ.

01:43:15.560 That's a colloquial term that people who are close to me refer to me as.

01:43:18.280 If you want to know who I am...

01:43:19.380 Teddy Kennedy ran for office as Teddy Kennedy.

01:43:22.160 Mitt Romney ran for office, not as Willard Mitt Romney, he ran as Willard.

01:43:26.440 Yeah, I'm saying...

01:43:27.500 Ted Kennedy ran as Robert...

01:43:30.100 He ran as Robert Kennedy.

01:43:30.720 Robert Kennedy was his brother.

01:43:32.340 Wait, are we talking about RFK Jr.?

01:43:34.460 Are we talking about JFK?

01:43:35.440 No, Teddy Kennedy was a...

01:43:36.800 Oh yeah, I forgot.

01:43:37.940 That was another Kennedy.

01:43:38.480 And then his brother was Robert.

01:43:39.560 Yeah, again, but...

01:43:40.280 But that doesn't necessarily mean that there's an electoral advantage in him getting...

01:43:44.540 I don't think in 2008 America it's an electoral advantage to go by Barack Hussein Obama.

01:43:48.340 I think the only reason anybody voted...

01:43:49.540 Seven years after 9-11, we're talking about Hussein Obama.

01:43:51.800 I think the only reason people voted for Obama is because he was an impressive speaker

01:43:56.560 and because they could say they voted for the first black president.

01:43:59.340 I don't think he had any accomplishments other than that.

01:44:01.780 Any...

01:44:02.100 Whoa, any accomplishments at all?

01:44:03.760 You mean prior to becoming president?

01:44:05.360 Yeah.

01:44:05.480 I think that he was a fresh new face.

01:44:08.280 Yeah, what did he do?

01:44:08.840 He didn't accomplish anything before he was president.

01:44:10.760 Well, I mean, well, he was a senator from Illinois.

01:44:12.960 He was...

01:44:13.380 What did he do?

01:44:13.840 What did he accomplish as a state senator from Illinois?

01:44:15.500 I'm not sure...

01:44:15.820 Well, he was a U.S. senator and before that...

01:44:17.040 I'm not sure what...

01:44:17.640 I know he was very outspoken against the Iraq War.

01:44:20.580 I don't know what he introduced in the Senate in 2006.

01:44:24.200 Nothing.

01:44:24.440 The answer is nothing.

01:44:25.700 I'm going to take you at your face value and just say, okay, he didn't.

01:44:29.820 Even then, I don't think that Barack Hussein Obama is the thing that would give him

01:44:33.640 the electoral advantage.

01:44:34.600 I think people voted for him, yeah, in part because he was a black president, or he would

01:44:38.380 be a first black president, but a lot of people also voted against him because he was

01:44:42.320 going to be the first black president.

01:44:43.500 Perhaps.

01:44:43.780 I don't know.

01:44:44.280 He won a huge portion of the American electorate.

01:44:46.800 A clear majority?

01:44:47.560 I'm pretty sure he...

01:44:48.440 Yeah, he won a majority of the electorate, but what were the racial breakdowns?

01:44:51.600 He won a ton of them.

01:44:52.340 I'm pretty sure 56 or...

01:44:54.360 I'm pretty sure 56 to 60% of white people voted against him.

01:44:57.220 In 08 or 12?

01:44:58.560 Huh?

01:44:59.060 In the first round or the second round.

01:45:00.460 I know he lost the white vote by a big...

01:45:03.000 Not a big margin, but a pretty substantial margin.

01:45:05.460 In the real life?

01:45:06.200 Because he was a terrorist.

01:45:06.820 No, both times.

01:45:08.660 White people weren't swooned over by Obama, and then in 2012, they were like, oh, this

01:45:12.540 guy's trash.

01:45:12.960 They thought he was trash the entire time.

01:45:14.580 White people also tend to vote for Republicans.

01:45:16.380 Yeah.

01:45:16.700 Much more likely to vote for Republicans than Democrats.

01:45:18.700 Yeah, no, but I'm talking even white Democrats.

01:45:21.000 Like, a lot of them...

01:45:21.780 It's not like Obama...

01:45:23.000 I'm pretty sure Obama won a majority of the white Democrat vote, but if you're talking

01:45:25.900 about the entire nation as a whole...

01:45:27.700 I agree that white Democrats are racist.

01:45:29.220 I agree.

01:45:30.000 I certainly agree with that.

01:45:31.320 But...

01:45:31.520 We're going to agree to everybody racist now.

01:45:33.340 What you...

01:45:34.360 Well...

01:45:34.960 I agree that some white Democrats are racist.

01:45:36.540 I agree that the vast majority of white Republicans are racist, though.

01:45:38.940 Really?

01:45:39.380 Yeah.

01:45:39.820 What makes you say that?

01:45:40.440 Oh, yeah.

01:45:41.320 Oh, I can say...

01:45:41.420 You think America's a racist country?

01:45:46.420 It's really hard to say no.

01:45:47.960 And the reason why is because of how racism has been baked into so many of our institutions.

01:45:51.900 I wouldn't say...

01:45:52.640 I think there's a difference between saying...

01:45:54.140 I feel like when people say, is America a racist country, they're trying to add the

01:45:57.560 moral pejorative that it's like, well, he thinks everyone is...

01:46:00.620 No, no.

01:46:00.980 I'm just saying you think America's a racist country.

01:46:02.420 I think the way in which America has been founded and operated, like, yeah, I think so.

01:46:06.880 Today, it's a racist country.

01:46:08.140 Oh, yeah.

01:46:08.480 Because there's a lot of those vestiges.

01:46:10.040 How many black people have immigrated to the U.S. over the last 20 years?

01:46:13.680 I'm not sure.

01:46:14.640 About three million.

01:46:15.640 Two million from Africa and a million from the country.

01:46:17.080 Why would they come to America if America was so racist?

01:46:19.320 That's a great question.

01:46:20.080 That is a real great question.

01:46:21.260 Why do you think a lot of Muslim people and a lot of people from the Middle East still

01:46:24.840 come to America despite the fact that they were literally profiled and targeted all after

01:46:29.100 a terrorist attack that really had nothing to do with them in particular?

01:46:31.540 Yeah, I don't remember any anti-Muslim pogromes.

01:46:32.840 Why did Asian people come to the United States despite the fact that...

01:46:36.740 Because they face very fair and equitable treatment.

01:46:38.320 That's why.

01:46:38.920 Asian Exclusion Act?

01:46:40.280 Chinese Exclusion Act?

01:46:41.340 Asian Bar Zone?

01:46:42.240 Oh, well, you're talking...

01:46:42.940 Japanese internment camps?

01:46:44.180 What fair and equitable treatment are we talking about?

01:46:46.420 I'm sorry.

01:46:46.900 I thought we were talking about...

01:46:47.900 No, I'm saying.

01:46:48.700 I'm saying.

01:46:49.140 But you're saying why would they come here?

01:46:50.280 They come here now because obviously America's gotten better.

01:46:53.540 No one argues that America hasn't gotten better.

01:46:55.380 But you're saying if it's racist, if America is actually hostile and discriminatory against

01:47:00.720 black people, why would three years come in 20 years?

01:47:04.060 Well, first of all, if we want to talk about black people who immigrate here, oftentimes

01:47:09.700 they come here with...

01:47:11.380 I'm not going to say they come here with a preconception about African Americans here,

01:47:14.260 but there's a demographical difference between black people from Africa who come here or from

01:47:18.600 other countries that come here and from African Americans that are actually already here.

01:47:22.940 So a lot of them will immigrate here from backgrounds of coming over for college or maybe

01:47:27.520 they already had a family member from a wealthier background that is sending them over for

01:47:31.400 college.

01:47:31.900 That makes up a lot of...

01:47:33.660 Especially a lot of work visas will go to Nigerians and Indians because they're working

01:47:37.580 in tech industries and stuff.

01:47:38.940 So it's not like these people are...

01:47:41.580 And because in general, maybe wherever they're coming from, the economic opportunity is probably

01:47:45.600 better in comparison to their country.

01:47:46.980 That doesn't mean that they did a holistic review of the race relations of the United

01:47:49.640 States and determined, this country isn't racist anymore, I'm going to take my chance

01:47:53.100 over there.

01:47:53.800 Yeah, it's better than...

01:47:54.620 Presumably they thought about it before they immigrated.

01:47:55.880 I don't think that it's a...

01:47:57.440 You don't think they thought, is it a good idea to move across the world to this evil,

01:48:00.480 racist country?

01:48:01.300 You don't think that passed through their mind?

01:48:04.060 Because A, I think that a country can have done evil, racist things in the past and you

01:48:08.000 can still want to...

01:48:08.060 But you're saying today it's still racist.

01:48:09.600 I think it's still racist, yeah.

01:48:10.800 There you go.

01:48:11.480 Yeah, but I don't think that that's a determining factor in the...

01:48:14.720 So you're saying that if I go there, there's an increase in likelihood that I'll face discrimination.

01:48:18.200 Cool.

01:48:19.060 But if I go there, I could also get a job that's going to make me way more money than

01:48:22.040 over here, even if I am poor over there.

01:48:24.000 It sounds like you're not being discriminated against at all.

01:48:26.040 And in fact, we know that it's much...

01:48:27.720 You're much more likely to get a job today for a big company if you are identifying as

01:48:31.960 a person of color rather than as a white person.

01:48:34.460 When?

01:48:35.180 Yeah.

01:48:35.820 So, okay, so one of my favorite studies in sociology is when they'll do application studies

01:48:41.100 and they'll change up things like maybe they'll provide a picture or they'll do

01:48:45.540 names, right?

01:48:46.400 Since 1985, there has not been any change in the likelihood of getting a callback for

01:48:53.720 a job when you are black.

01:48:55.880 According to these sociological studies.

01:48:58.280 According to scientific consensus in sociology.

01:49:01.160 Now, let me raise another prospect to you.

01:49:02.960 There was a study that just came out, an analysis by Bloomberg of 88 companies in the S&P 100.

01:49:08.060 And it was over hiring practices over the last few years because the EEOC, the Equal Employment

01:49:15.440 Opportunity Commission, requires that big companies with more than 100 employees publish their

01:49:21.300 workforce demographics.

01:49:23.020 And over the last couple of years, 94% of people who have been hired for a job for any of those

01:49:29.920 companies have been persons of color, which is pretty crazy because the country is 60% white,

01:49:36.440 which means the only way they could have arrived at that number is by actively discriminating against

01:49:41.380 white applicants and giving an advantage to persons of color.

01:49:44.020 Well, I'm going to assume that, I can't even assume that your numbers are 100% correct.

01:49:48.420 They totally are.

01:49:49.360 Are they?

01:49:49.780 You can Google it right now.

01:49:50.440 You're going to trust me that I'm going to look it up and it's going to say the 94% of

01:49:54.000 people hired for a job at these few corporations.

01:49:56.800 Not few.

01:49:57.160 It's 88 of the S&P 100.

01:49:59.580 They're talking about the biggest companies in America.

01:50:01.260 We're saying that the workforce, 94%.

01:50:04.240 Of the new hires, yeah.

01:50:05.200 94% of the new hires.

01:50:06.400 How many new hires?

01:50:08.440 So, because you do understand that you could have a high proportion of new hires be hired

01:50:12.320 as minorities and the overall makeup of the company could still be white.

01:50:16.240 Well, sure, but we're just, we're talking about the policies in place.

01:50:19.400 We're talking about policies 50 years ago.

01:50:20.660 So, 88 of the top 100 companies are attempting to increase their diversity by hiring higher

01:50:27.140 rates of minorities and that means that the racism is gone?

01:50:30.880 No, it means that there is new racism against white applicants if only 6% of the people hired.

01:50:35.120 Why would they need to hire many minorities?

01:50:38.640 Because we have de facto and de jure racial discrimination in employment against white people

01:50:44.300 and to a lesser degree against Asian people.

01:50:45.340 There's de facto racism.

01:50:47.740 You know what de facto racism is?

01:50:49.140 Or de facto discrimination?

01:50:50.720 Yeah.

01:50:51.460 What does it mean?

01:50:52.400 So, de jure racism would be as a matter of explicit law and de facto would be as a matter

01:50:58.300 of implicit practice.

01:50:59.540 And in the case of affirmative action policies, it's actually both.

01:51:03.080 Well, actually no.

01:51:04.060 Well, de facto would be as, de facto would be, so the way I like to think about it is when

01:51:08.980 we had, when we look at public schools today, there's still a lot of de facto segregation

01:51:12.700 left over from the Jim Crow era because there was no serious effort.

01:51:14.680 And because students self-segregate.

01:51:16.260 Yeah, well, because they were put in a condition in which they were already mostly segregated.

01:51:20.800 So you can't, there's not really-

01:51:21.640 No, even in mixed schools, I'm saying.

01:51:22.860 There have been a lot of studies on this and it's very odd because a lot of people want,

01:51:26.180 don't like there to be self-segregation, but it happens.

01:51:28.560 Yeah, it'll happen because of different like cultural backgrounds and everything.

01:51:32.000 But that is compounded with the fact that there was never a real ability to fully desegregate

01:51:38.340 public schools.

01:51:38.940 Federal busing with the National Guard.

01:51:41.260 What?

01:51:41.800 Yeah, and they struck that down.

01:51:45.100 That was, and it's funny because Joe Biden, back at it again, he was opposed to the forced

01:51:49.160 busing and everything along with a lot of white America at the time.

01:51:52.120 And in 2007, Chief Justice Roberts, they had the Supreme Court decision where they decided

01:51:56.720 that attempts to desegregate public schools by trying to, by assigning kids to schools

01:52:02.040 based on like racial background to try to like create a more even mixture was unconstitutional.

01:52:06.540 So even when we were trying it, it gets struck down and it gets struck down.

01:52:11.540 So you still have not a properly addressed situation, which is going to, if you're spending

01:52:15.180 all your life around people around the same skin color of you, then when you get in the

01:52:18.180 area, even though there are more people of different skin colors, you're probably going

01:52:20.980 to be more comfortable with these people around you.

01:52:22.780 And that's due to circumstances that was not necessarily created.

01:52:24.500 No, I'm not disputing the fact that there are people.

01:52:27.640 But when I was talking about de facto segregation, and the reason why is because it's vestiges that

01:52:32.840 are left over from policies that used to be in place and not a serious act to correct

01:52:36.740 them.

01:52:37.600 So how in the world is hiring majority minorities in recent years at corporations, how is it

01:52:43.960 de facto segregation when the whole reason why they're doing that is because of the policy?

01:52:48.780 I'm not saying it's segregation, I'm saying it's racial discrimination.

01:52:49.820 How is that de facto discrimination based off of when the vast majority of the people at

01:52:56.140 the corporation will A, still be white, and B, the whole reason why they're doing that

01:52:59.220 is to correct for the fact that it's allowed.

01:53:00.780 Well, you might say it's good discrimination, which I suppose is what you are saying, but

01:53:04.240 it just is, never the last is discrimination.

01:53:05.580 I wouldn't say it's, I wouldn't say it is good or bad discrimination, because I don't,

01:53:11.480 again, assuming that the new hires are really 94% minority applicants, I think that you could

01:53:20.680 say that it's a discrimination in a sense because they're attempting to correct a situation

01:53:27.740 Yeah, you're saying it's a good thing, because it's only based off of discrimination, but

01:53:31.580 again...

01:53:32.120 I'm just telling you, it undermines the argument that you're making, which is that America

01:53:36.500 today is racist against America when it's the opposite.

01:53:38.080 But you do understand that if you, but you do understand that if, okay, whoa, because

01:53:42.800 first let me say, you do understand that even if you did hire at a 60% clip for white

01:53:48.160 people, because that's proportionate, right?

01:53:50.320 I'm not saying, no, no, I don't think you need to take it to the proportion of the population.

01:53:52.600 You said it was crazy because, look, it's, yeah, I mean, if you can take it, you can

01:53:56.480 say...

01:53:56.500 So perhaps white people stop being able to do any jobs.

01:53:58.300 Is 60% minority an issue, or is it just because it's 94?

01:54:03.180 When's the threshold?

01:54:03.980 I don't think that we should have racial quotas for hiring.

01:54:08.080 Is it a quota?

01:54:08.580 It's also illegal.

01:54:09.620 It's not the same.

01:54:10.220 Unconstitutional.

01:54:10.700 That is illegal, so it's not a quota.

01:54:12.840 You can do a compelling state interest to do, like, have diversity, but there's not

01:54:17.300 saying you need to have X amount of black people, X amount of white people, X amount

01:54:19.860 of...

01:54:19.980 So as a matter of de jure policy, we have affirmative action, which is a kind of racial discrimination

01:54:25.340 against white people and to a lesser degree Asians, and as a matter of de facto hiring

01:54:29.240 policy, we have clear racial discrimination because of the 94%...

01:54:32.580 How is affirmative action...

01:54:33.740 I'm sorry.

01:54:34.460 How is affirmative action discrimination?

01:54:37.320 Because you're giving preference to one race over another.

01:54:41.420 So if...

01:54:42.700 You're discriminating.

01:54:43.840 Let's say that, again, and it's not even...

01:54:47.220 Affirmative action isn't even necessarily saying that you need to choose one person

01:54:50.440 over the other.

01:54:51.020 It's taking...

01:54:51.880 It's just giving an advantage to one race over another.

01:54:54.300 I wouldn't say that because, again, if we're talking about advantage, right, how is it that

01:55:00.940 an advantage is provided to a group of people when they are given more opportunity to actually

01:55:06.520 succeed at a level that's more proportional to what they should have been doing otherwise?

01:55:10.220 So if you put a bunch of institutional barriers, right, and you say you cannot come here because

01:55:15.220 of race, right, you're making an arbitrary decision or you're...

01:55:17.960 Because I'm saying back when...

01:55:19.220 Chinese Exclusion Act, say.

01:55:20.680 Yeah, something like that.

01:55:21.600 Is that what you mean?

01:55:21.740 Something like that, right?

01:55:23.160 If you then proceed policies, if you then put in place policies to say, okay, these people

01:55:27.040 make up a certain subsect of our population, they live in this society, they should be participating

01:55:32.740 and we just decided that they're not going to participate because of the color of their skin.

01:55:36.540 But then if we say, all right, let's give more opportunities to them now, do you see

01:55:40.300 the problem if you were to then cry discrimination again?

01:55:42.800 Because then what is the alternative?

01:55:44.360 If we just stop having racial anything, no consideration of race, right?

01:55:49.200 It's the fallacy of colorblind law.

01:55:52.520 What's the fallacy?

01:55:53.600 As in no law is truly colorblind.

01:55:56.140 If you're talking about...

01:55:57.040 So if we're saying, okay, we're not going to have anything racial in it, right?

01:56:01.020 We're just going to hire according to a proportion of the population, which, again, you're going

01:56:04.900 to have...

01:56:04.980 No, I'm not suggesting that.

01:56:06.560 I'm saying we don't have racial quotas.

01:56:08.500 So not only by factors of sheer math are you going to have way more white applicants, you

01:56:13.120 are neglecting the fact that the reason why you have so few minority applicants isn't just

01:56:17.740 because they're applying at a proportionate rate and you're just saying no because you're

01:56:21.520 being discriminatory.

01:56:22.500 They aren't even getting the tools to get there in the first place because of policy that

01:56:27.700 affected them in the past.

01:56:29.260 What policy?

01:56:29.660 Why are they at a disadvantage?

01:56:30.980 Why are they at a disadvantage?

01:56:32.220 We can talk about black people in particular.

01:56:33.660 We can talk about redlining and housing discrimination.

01:56:36.760 We can talk about the after effects of slavery and debt peonage that no one talks about.

01:56:44.200 I noticed that I never see you guys cover, Daily Wire cover, like anything when it comes

01:56:49.020 to the history of black people that accurately explains where we are at today because the

01:56:55.020 last chattel slave released in America was actually in 1942.

01:56:57.800 And that's not like a crackpot theory.

01:57:01.080 That's because right after segregation or right after slavery, the South didn't kind

01:57:05.420 of just like give up and be like, oh, you got our slaves, our economy is just going to

01:57:08.340 go along now.

01:57:09.160 They attempted to have a system in which they re-implemented it.

01:57:12.020 There are over 9 million slaves going around today, not in the United States.

01:57:15.780 Yeah, that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

01:57:17.980 How does it not?

01:57:19.340 Because we're not talking about the historical or that we're not talking about the context

01:57:23.180 of people who are living in slavery conditions around the world.

01:57:26.380 I'm saying slavery is practiced everywhere around the world today.

01:57:28.920 What does that mean?

01:57:30.340 It means forced servitude.

01:57:31.920 No, I'm not saying what does slavery mean.

01:57:33.860 What does it mean that is practiced in multiple places and everywhere today?

01:57:37.080 Does that mean it's okay?

01:57:38.660 No, it's very bad.

01:57:39.520 But what I'm saying is we're basically the only guys that ever stopped it in all of human

01:57:43.080 history.

01:57:43.620 We in the West, yeah.

01:57:45.440 That's funny.

01:57:46.180 What do you mean by we in the West?

01:57:47.380 I mean, Europe and the countries that came out of the European colonies are the only

01:57:55.080 part of civilization ever that decided to end the practice of slavery.

01:57:59.760 And they did so for explicitly Christian reasons.

01:58:01.480 Where do you think that slavery was most popular?

01:58:04.580 Well, it was the Muslim pirates who were some of the largest traders of slavery.

01:58:08.520 No, no, that's the sheer, when it comes to the trade of the Barbary slave trade.

01:58:13.060 No, not just...

01:58:13.740 No, yeah, I'm talking about that, the Barbary pirates.

01:58:16.080 That's sheer number-wise, like, compared to the transatlantic slave trade with African

01:58:19.920 Americans in particular, it's a bigger number.

01:58:22.480 Yeah.

01:58:23.160 But I'm saying, where do you think it was most popular?

01:58:25.300 You're taking that one instance of slave trade.

01:58:26.740 You're saying today, or...

01:58:27.900 No, I'm talking about historically.

01:58:29.160 You're taking that one instance of slave trading, and you're neglecting all the slavery that

01:58:33.260 was going on in Western countries.

01:58:35.660 If you count up that number, that's significantly more than the Barbary slaves.

01:58:39.500 I'm saying even slavery today, for instance, in Africa is still practiced.

01:58:43.500 There's a candidate for the president of South Sudan, who himself was a slave, and has been

01:58:48.320 speaking out about the problems of slavery all around the world.

01:58:50.840 At the height of the transatlantic slave trade, there were more slaves who were held in Africa

01:58:55.760 than were shipped over to the New World.

01:58:58.780 So I'm saying this, and this has been true in East Asia, this has been true in the Middle

01:59:02.300 East.

01:59:02.560 And this is because you're failing to draw a distinction between what slavery we're talking

01:59:07.500 about.

01:59:07.880 These societies did have slavery, and that, again, has nothing to do with American history.

01:59:12.580 But when we look at the context...

01:59:13.060 There's a lot to do with the history of slavery.

01:59:15.080 No, I'm talking about around the world.

01:59:16.760 The fact that every other nation or other nations practice slavery has nothing to do

01:59:20.200 with the context.

01:59:20.380 And continue to.

01:59:20.880 Throughout every other region of the world.

01:59:22.460 So does America.

01:59:23.860 If you look up any study, if you look up any source that tells you how many slaves there

01:59:27.740 are in the world, they'll say there's like 7 million in Africa, and they'll give you

01:59:31.620 a number about 400,000 to a million in America based on their criteria.

01:59:36.040 Because of sex slavery?

01:59:36.740 Because of sex slavery, yeah.

01:59:37.520 Of the people being held by the cartels on the open border?

01:59:39.540 Yeah, so, no.

01:59:40.880 In the United States.

01:59:42.500 Literally in our country.

01:59:43.400 Because, for instance, our southern border's open, and so the cartels...

01:59:46.640 Our southern border's open?

01:59:47.980 Yep.

01:59:48.640 We have over 3 million people a year come into the country illegally.

01:59:52.400 So it's open.

01:59:53.380 Does that mean that it's open?

01:59:55.880 Effectively, yeah.

01:59:56.540 If you can't stop 3 million people from crossing your border, you're probably a pretty open

01:59:59.580 border.

01:59:59.960 Do you have anything to compare that to, number-wise?

02:00:02.380 Yeah.

02:00:02.780 So even five years ago, the number was down to about 2,000 people a day, which at that

02:00:08.440 time was an all-time high.

02:00:09.540 Is it 3 million a year?

02:00:11.000 Over 3 million.

02:00:11.540 I'm genuinely concerned, because I believe that it was around 1.

02:00:15.560 It's not.

02:00:16.140 It's much higher than that.

02:00:17.720 We have a million legal immigrants who come in per year, which is also a shockingly high

02:00:21.520 number, completely out of accord with any other country on Earth and any other time

02:00:25.720 in history.

02:00:26.220 But we also have many more millions of illegal aliens crossing into the border per year.

02:00:30.180 Illegal aliens is a nice term.

02:00:32.760 But I'm saying, like...

02:00:33.880 He's a criminal foreign national.

02:00:36.440 That doesn't mean that you have...

02:00:38.160 Alien, kind of like...

02:00:39.680 Alien just means a foreign national.

02:00:40.840 Oh.

02:00:42.700 I mean, no.

02:00:43.540 I mean, in the term...

02:00:44.300 If you're using, like, illegal alien and you want to try to...

02:00:47.620 Like, that's like a...

02:00:49.060 I don't want to say, like, incorrect, because I know the guys get about, like, speech and

02:00:52.040 like...

02:00:52.200 No, it's correct.

02:00:53.060 I know the guys get, but it's not like...

02:00:54.480 Yeah.

02:00:54.760 The term alien is kind of like...

02:00:56.100 I know you talked about...

02:00:56.780 What's wrong with the term alien?

02:00:57.340 I know you talked about...

02:00:58.280 I'm not calling them E.T.

02:00:59.140 I know you...

02:00:59.660 No, I'm talking...

02:01:00.200 I know when you talked to Bronte, you mentioned how using the term fetus is, like, dehumanizing.

02:01:04.360 I think using the literal word alien is also dehumanizing.

02:01:07.100 But, you know, alien doesn't refer to Martians.

02:01:09.800 Alien refers to those who are not like us of a different...

02:01:12.880 No, it just means foreigner.

02:01:14.260 They're foreign.

02:01:14.840 So they're subject to foreign governments, and they're here illegally.

02:01:17.180 So we say illegal alien.

02:01:18.360 This is a more precise term.

02:01:19.840 You could also...

02:01:20.280 No, a more precise term would be illegal immigrant, because they went through the immigration process

02:01:23.420 illegally.

02:01:24.240 You don't have to say alien.

02:01:24.700 Well, they didn't go through any immigration process.

02:01:27.340 That's why...

02:01:27.580 They immigrated somewhere illegally.

02:01:28.660 So they're distinct from legal immigrants.

02:01:31.240 That's why we don't use that term.

02:01:31.380 Or you could just say a foreign national.

02:01:33.480 But there are not...

02:01:35.160 You know, someone in Guatemala today is a foreign national, but someone who's here who

02:01:38.380 calls their border illegally and stays in the country would be an illegal alien.

02:01:41.480 Quick lesson about, like, grammar and connotation, right?

02:01:45.280 So, like, the term blacks.

02:01:49.180 By our definition of what a racial category is, it is not incorrect to call somebody a black.

02:01:55.200 But it is technically incorrect to call somebody a black, because we...

02:01:58.460 It's like, that's kind of...

02:01:59.340 That's a word that's kind of been used to...

02:02:00.740 Because you don't like the word.

02:02:01.660 What about whites?

02:02:02.620 That's also a weird term.

02:02:04.260 It's like segregation-era terminology.

02:02:06.500 That's why I don't use whites.

02:02:07.620 I don't use blacks.

02:02:08.540 You can say black people or white people.

02:02:10.540 But if you were to look at someone crookedly after they said, oh, blacks, no one would

02:02:15.620 be like, oh, well, it's just the correct term.

02:02:17.400 Because, yeah, terms can...

02:02:18.540 Just like the word colored is a correct term.

02:02:20.920 Your skin color has color in it.

02:02:23.300 White people don't really have color.

02:02:25.440 Well, it's funny, because now the term is person of color.

02:02:28.040 Like, people of color.

02:02:29.200 I don't even like that.

02:02:30.440 I don't like that one either.

02:02:31.500 I think it's very silly.

02:02:32.840 I don't like that one.

02:02:33.340 Yeah, because I think you can be more specific.

02:02:35.120 But the broader point that the illegal alien thing is like, you know that the connotation

02:02:39.060 of alien is like...

02:02:40.200 I think it's...

02:02:40.660 You can give me the dictionary definition of an alien.

02:02:43.600 I agree with you that it has a negative connotation.

02:02:45.740 The reason it has a negative connotation is because it is a bad thing to cross illegally

02:02:50.080 into a country.

02:02:51.100 No, it's just...

02:02:51.940 They've done a bad thing, and that's why it has a bad connotation.

02:02:53.640 No, it's the reason why...

02:02:54.860 Is it really a bad thing to cross illegally into another country?

02:02:57.900 Yes, it's illegal and unjust.

02:02:59.980 How?

02:03:00.540 It's unjust to cross into another country.

02:03:02.240 So, again, it's funny, because we're going to get back on morals.

02:03:04.500 If someone was, like, running from the cartel, and they had, like...

02:03:07.360 It was a family, it was, like, some little girls, a couple boys with them, and it was

02:03:13.640 a family that were running across the border to escape from the cartel.

02:03:16.460 But that's not what happens.

02:03:17.580 They actually work with the cartels to cross the border illegally, because the cartels control

02:03:21.540 the entirety of the southern border.

02:03:22.940 Yeah, and the cartels run rampant within the countries as well.

02:03:27.220 So if you're trying to escape the cartel, and the only way you can do that...

02:03:30.580 You don't escape it by crossing illegally across that border.

02:03:32.840 You have to work with the cartels to cross illegally across...

02:03:35.260 Do you think every illegal immigrant is working with the cartel?

02:03:38.760 Yes.

02:03:40.220 Practically speaking, yes.

02:03:41.520 The cartels control the entirety of the southern border.

02:03:43.960 And so what they do is they pay off the cartels, and then they end up in a type of slavery.

02:03:47.520 Wait, so after they cross over, do you think that they're still working with the cartel,

02:03:52.080 or did they work with the cartel?

02:03:53.120 Yes.

02:03:53.540 They owe them a lot of money.

02:03:54.940 They owe them a lot...

02:03:55.900 All the illegal immigrants owe them a lot of money, and they're working with the cartel.

02:03:59.000 Yeah, they...

02:03:59.600 Can you substantiate that?

02:04:01.080 I can't.

02:04:01.940 That's how they end up in prostitution, which was how we got on the...

02:04:05.240 this topic because of modern-day sex slavery, or they end up running drugs, or they end

02:04:09.320 up in other criminal enterprises for the cartels.

02:04:11.300 Well, first, first...

02:04:12.200 Who do you think controls the border?

02:04:13.500 Firstly, do you think that prostitution is only a thing that is brought into America

02:04:19.840 through the southern border?

02:04:20.980 No, but it is...

02:04:21.440 Like illegal...

02:04:22.360 Like sex slavery, do you think that's only exclusively done by non-Americans?

02:04:26.660 No, of course not.

02:04:28.080 So why do we keep...

02:04:29.180 Why do we keep, like, making this assumption?

02:04:31.340 Like, okay, I ask you to substantiate...

02:04:32.140 I'm not making that assumption at all.

02:04:33.140 I ask you to substantiate that every illegal immigrant that crosses the border is now...

02:04:37.140 Is working with the cartel.

02:04:38.040 Secretly working with the cartel.

02:04:39.520 Not secretly.

02:04:40.020 It's often open.

02:04:40.940 Yeah, so...

02:04:41.620 And it's funny because it doesn't even need to be cartel.

02:04:44.300 They can just pay coyotes who are trained at running people across.

02:04:47.600 The coyotes work with the cartel.

02:04:48.420 Yeah, they do.

02:04:49.000 Who do you think they work for?

02:04:49.460 At times, but that doesn't mean that the people then work for the coyotes that then work for

02:04:53.580 the cartel.

02:04:53.940 Do you think the cartels just let these people off the hook out of the goodness of their heart?

02:04:56.940 They ferry them across the border?

02:04:57.700 Do you think that they have...

02:04:58.420 Do you think that the cartel has a database of the three million illegal immigrants that

02:05:02.180 come across the American border?

02:05:02.820 I think they keep track of them.

02:05:03.720 And do you think they keep track of them?

02:05:06.000 They have more tracking...

02:05:07.040 They have more tracking capacity than the United States government who lost people's parents

02:05:10.680 under Donald Trump when they locked them in cages?

02:05:13.120 When they locked them in...

02:05:14.240 They did.

02:05:14.920 It's literally an image.

02:05:16.460 So when it comes to illegal aliens, yes, the cartels actually are better at keeping track of

02:05:20.600 people, but...

02:05:21.700 Than the United States government?

02:05:22.780 Yeah.

02:05:23.000 Because the U.S. government just releases them into the country, because that's an intentional

02:05:27.220 policy of Democrats.

02:05:28.680 But do you know what...

02:05:29.700 I'm confused at how your worldview ends up on a...

02:05:33.700 So it's an intentional policy of...

02:05:35.660 Was that kind of like Great Replacement-esque?

02:05:38.160 What do you mean by Great Replacement?

02:05:39.620 Like the theory that Democrats or political people are deliberately conspiring to bring,

02:05:46.280 to import more people...

02:05:47.520 Well, they say that.

02:05:48.420 They say that they're doing that.

02:05:49.520 There was a major study that came out in 2004 that shaped the political campaign, even of

02:05:54.440 Barack Obama, who described the coalition of the ascendant.

02:05:57.060 You've seen columns like this in the New York Times by Michelle Goldberg about how the Democrats

02:06:01.480 need to import more foreign people, and that will help the Democrat political coalition.

02:06:05.620 I don't think there's any source that you could find me out there that says that the Democratic

02:06:09.400 Party has said that they need to import more foreign people.

02:06:12.300 If you're saying that they appeal more to the values of immigrants...

02:06:15.900 No, no, no, but on...

02:06:17.840 They would want to...

02:06:18.620 They would want to...

02:06:19.280 I think...

02:06:19.880 And I've seen this...

02:06:20.620 On border policy...

02:06:21.560 Yeah, no, I...

02:06:22.000 They favor much higher levels of immigration and amnesty for illegal immigrants.

02:06:25.880 Yeah, they favor a lot more levels of immigration because immigration helps the country.

02:06:30.040 That doesn't mean that they're saying...

02:06:31.120 How does it help the country?

02:06:32.080 It raises rates of crime.

02:06:33.340 It raises rates of...

02:06:33.940 Whoa!

02:06:34.360 ...on government programs.

02:06:35.200 Whoa!

02:06:35.640 First-generation immigrants commit way less crime than native-born population.

02:06:39.200 That isn't true.

02:06:39.940 That isn't true.

02:06:40.780 You want me to look it up for you?

02:06:41.780 Illegal immigrants?

02:06:42.860 Yeah.

02:06:43.720 Any immigrants.

02:06:44.500 Illegal...

02:06:44.820 No, no, no.

02:06:45.100 Not any immigrants.

02:06:46.080 Any and immigrants.

02:06:46.740 That's the key.

02:06:47.520 Okay.

02:06:47.800 I can look up illegal for you, too.

02:06:49.340 Okay.

02:06:49.940 That's good.

02:06:50.220 There are some good studies to this effect.

02:06:52.560 The Center for Immigration Studies has some good ones out there about how illegal aliens

02:06:57.100 are significantly more likely to be on welfare programs when they come over here and how

02:07:02.360 illegal aliens are more likely to commit crimes as well.

02:07:06.040 And this is especially focused in the border towns in places like Texas and Arizona and Southern

02:07:11.020 California.

02:07:12.060 Illegal...

02:07:12.820 Well, I know that you brought up the welfare issue.

02:07:15.420 Something about needing to...

02:07:17.160 Something about fleeing somewhere and you don't really have anything left could...

02:07:20.200 end up putting you on...

02:07:21.060 But what are they...

02:07:21.580 Even then, a lot of times...

02:07:22.580 You're talking about political asylum?

02:07:24.020 Huh?

02:07:24.280 Like seeking...

02:07:24.840 Like earlier you said...

02:07:25.980 No, no.

02:07:26.140 Asylum is a completely separate process.

02:07:27.620 But I'm saying if you're going to run away from your country and come to another country

02:07:30.940 illegally, A, a lot of immigrants are hesitant in even getting on that point.

02:07:34.740 And B, they still pay taxes to their wages.

02:07:37.240 They pay some taxes.

02:07:37.860 I'm pretty sure there's data...

02:07:39.580 A lot of that's off the books.

02:07:40.740 I'm pretty sure that data out there suggests that they actually pay more into welfare that

02:07:46.300 they actually get back because they're not...

02:07:48.000 It's kind of...

02:07:48.260 There's something about being...

02:07:49.320 Like there's something about illegally being in a country that's going to not put you first

02:07:52.660 in line to be under a government assistance program in case they, you know, find out

02:07:56.480 that you're...

02:07:56.920 No, it's not true.

02:07:57.780 But this is why we have the concept of sanctuary states and sanctuary cities.

02:08:01.800 This is why Gavin Newsom in California says we're going to be a sanctuary state.

02:08:04.720 This is why New York said please bring all the immigrants here until the immigrants caused

02:08:08.440 a lot of problems in those cities.

02:08:10.200 So that all happens and the Democrats are pretty explicit about it.

02:08:13.740 The Democrats are explicit about...

02:08:15.800 About favoring higher...

02:08:17.040 Yeah.

02:08:17.580 Higher levels of immigrants.

02:08:18.180 So favoring a higher level of...

02:08:19.780 And an honesty for the ones here.

02:08:20.520 Yeah.

02:08:21.220 Yeah.

02:08:21.500 So am I.

02:08:22.480 Favoring a higher level of immigration.

02:08:23.720 Because it's politically advantageous.

02:08:25.060 But it's socially destructive.

02:08:26.420 So there's a difference between saying...

02:08:27.520 It's also bad for the people who cross.

02:08:28.880 There's a difference between saying I want more immigrants in my country because I want

02:08:34.400 to...

02:08:35.360 We should appeal more to them and they can help our country and we want amnesty for them.

02:08:40.400 There's a difference between saying that and saying we are going to deliberately import

02:08:43.480 people to replace a white population.

02:08:45.640 That's the great replacement.

02:08:46.260 What do you mean to replace...

02:08:46.840 Like you're going to shove it...

02:08:47.680 You kill the white people?

02:08:48.420 As in the more brown people that you bring in, the less they breed.

02:08:50.760 They breed with the people in the country and then the concept of whiteness gets like

02:08:54.440 more and more deteriorated until there's not as many white people.

02:08:56.680 That's the great replacement.

02:08:57.740 Yeah.

02:08:58.140 I mean...

02:08:58.360 That's what I asked you about.

02:08:59.120 You said, well, yeah, the Democrats are deliberately...

02:09:01.400 And you have no evidence...

02:09:01.720 They're deliberately flooding the country with migrants.

02:09:03.740 That's true.

02:09:04.100 Well, by not enforcing their border policy.

02:09:06.880 How are they not enforcing the border?

02:09:08.160 Because Joe Biden allows 3 million people a year to come into the country illegally.

02:09:10.660 So then how many did Donald Trump allow?

02:09:12.780 Because Joe Biden's immigration policy has been mostly similar to Donald Trump.

02:09:15.900 Not really.

02:09:16.720 The numbers were much lower under Trump and the numbers in the first months of Trump's

02:09:20.520 presidency, illegal immigration collapsed.

02:09:23.560 Now, six months out into the rest of Donald Trump's administration, the numbers started to

02:09:28.000 jump back up again.

02:09:28.780 But the reason for that is because the Democrats stymied him on building the border wall and stymied

02:09:32.680 him on ice deporting illegal aliens and made a big hullabaloo about Donald Trump putting

02:09:38.220 families in cages, cages that were built by Barack Obama.

02:09:41.260 Barack Obama did not build those cages.

02:09:43.020 He did.

02:09:43.440 No, he didn't.

02:09:44.080 He did.

02:09:44.360 There's a completely different process.

02:09:46.260 He did.

02:09:46.500 He literally didn't.

02:09:47.660 That's literally just a lie.

02:09:48.860 I mean, I think we can get away with lying when you couch it.

02:09:51.580 When were the cages built?

02:09:52.660 I'm not sure exactly what year they were built.

02:09:54.600 It was 2014.

02:09:55.180 They were not built by Barack Obama.

02:09:56.920 Well, he didn't physically build them.

02:09:58.260 No, I'm not.

02:09:58.960 Okay.

02:09:59.820 I'm saying that the whole concept of the cages being used to contain these migrants.

02:10:04.900 I'm telling you when they were built.

02:10:06.400 You can't tell me when they were built.

02:10:07.660 You're just insistent that I'm not right about it.

02:10:09.460 I'm saying when you say that the cages were built by Barack Obama, first of all, I have

02:10:12.980 no evidence that his administration constructed the cages.

02:10:15.980 And even if they did construct the cages, they were not used as cages for people.

02:10:20.940 You do understand that, right?

02:10:21.760 The whole reason why the Democrats made a big hullabaloo about containing people in cages

02:10:26.360 is because a bunch of migrants were coming across the border, and then the Trump administration

02:10:29.840 were shoving them in cages.

02:10:31.260 There was no distinction between whether or not they were applying for asylum, which the

02:10:35.240 UN said that we violated international law on that front.

02:10:37.920 You can roll your eyes about international law, but the process—

02:10:40.900 But they're not asylums.

02:10:41.380 No, because the process—

02:10:41.880 They're economic migrants.

02:10:42.360 How do you know that?

02:10:43.520 Because we have 60 years of data for migrants.

02:10:46.100 No, but—

02:10:46.380 And they're majority, vast majority economic migrants.

02:10:48.860 No, yeah, you can say a lot of them are economic migrants, but you have no way of knowing

02:10:52.680 that if you stop them as soon as they come across the border and throw them in a cage.

02:10:55.820 The legal process that we agreed to on a national front is when someone is declaring asylum

02:11:00.280 in a country, they go across that border, go to the nearest station, and they declare

02:11:04.280 their thing for asylum, and then they get refuge while we await the process.

02:11:07.600 What do you think the cages are, though?

02:11:08.580 It's not like literally a dog cage.

02:11:09.900 It literally looks like a dog cage, and they had foil blankets.

02:11:12.860 They lit—you can Google pictures of it.

02:11:14.720 You get—sure, they didn't throw them in a—

02:11:16.100 I remember the cages.

02:11:16.880 Sure, they didn't throw them in a Rottweiler cage, but they threw them in silver cages.

02:11:19.240 Yeah, but it was a processing center, because there were millions of people.

02:11:21.680 A processing center?

02:11:22.740 What processing were they going through?

02:11:24.280 They lost people's parents.

02:11:25.920 They were sitting there.

02:11:26.500 There were disease breaking out.

02:11:27.840 There was foil blankets.

02:11:29.420 There was really no element of processing.

02:11:30.600 Donald just died under the Biden administration in the same issue.

02:11:33.160 But of course, the media never made a big deal about it.

02:11:35.900 I'm saying—well, actually, if you've been paying attention, Biden has been having a

02:11:40.400 lot of criticism about how his immigration policy, like I said, has not been that different

02:11:44.580 to Donald Trump.

02:11:44.840 I don't see the crying AOC photos like we saw under Trump.

02:11:48.060 Furthermore, though—

02:11:48.740 Do you think AOC's supposed to go to the border and take a separate picture under every

02:11:52.680 president about—

02:11:53.460 No, I think it was a cynical ploy, and she wasn't even near the centers when she did

02:11:57.040 it.

02:11:57.200 She was outside of a fence and posing for a picture.

02:11:59.180 But even beyond the processing of these people, there was a survey that came out from

02:12:04.340 Fusion and Amnesty International, reported in the Huffington Post.

02:12:07.820 So we're talking about liberal organizations.

02:12:09.560 What percentage of illegal alien women and girls who cross that border illegally do you think

02:12:13.880 are raped or sexually assaulted?

02:12:15.260 I'm not sure.

02:12:16.100 The number is between 60 and 80 percent, which gets to exactly what we were talking about when

02:12:21.200 we were discussing the cartels.

02:12:22.460 So this is a terrible—

02:12:23.980 In 2018, the illegal immigrant criminal conviction rate was 782 per 100,000 illegal immigrants,

02:12:30.800 535 per 100,000 legal immigrants, and 1,422 per 100 native-born Americans.

02:12:38.940 That is double illegal immigrants.

02:12:43.720 According to which—

02:12:44.900 This is according to the Cato Institute study.

02:12:47.400 Well, it's a Cato Institute.

02:12:48.400 It's a pro-migration think tank.

02:12:49.560 But what is their data set?

02:12:51.660 It's libertarian.

02:12:52.460 Yeah, it's libertarian.

02:12:53.480 Where is their data set from?

02:12:54.720 Well, I guess they've conducted multiple studies on the topic of immigration.

02:12:58.720 I'd just be kind of curious to dig into those data.

02:13:00.700 You can look it up.

02:13:01.760 It's not even just Cato.

02:13:03.100 I can find you another one.

02:13:04.280 There is no data that you will find out there that says that illegal or illegal immigrants

02:13:08.600 commit more crime.

02:13:09.780 One focus specifically on illegal here, and I think we could—

02:13:12.160 Illegal either.

02:13:13.100 Illegal does not commit.

02:13:14.140 Even if you count the one crime of crossing the border illegally.

02:13:18.320 That's a pretty big one.

02:13:19.200 Yeah, but you still don't get to the native-born population.

02:13:21.520 Of course you would, because then 100% of illegal aliens would have committed a crime.

02:13:25.000 Yeah.

02:13:25.280 But to your point, and this is where some of these numbers get a little fuzzy, which is

02:13:28.100 why the data are hard to get here.

02:13:29.100 They're not convicted because they're not processed because they're operating outside

02:13:33.420 of the standards of the law, and they're doing that because the political leadership

02:13:37.880 in this country wants to keep them that way because they think it gives them political

02:13:41.260 advantage.

02:13:43.460 I was looking at—I'm sorry.

02:13:45.760 I apologize that I didn't necessarily hear everything that you said because I was trying

02:13:49.500 to look at the Scientific American.

02:13:51.620 I'll find you some other data about the crime statistics.

02:13:54.160 I didn't know they were immigration experts over there at Scientific American.

02:13:57.180 You can analyze data.

02:13:58.560 They talk about—you can—that's a sociological study.

02:14:02.460 If you're trying to analyze the behavior of people and the likelihood to commit crime,

02:14:06.160 that's sociological.

02:14:06.660 Look, I have no doubt that left-wing and libertarian groups want to make—

02:14:10.280 Scientific American is a left-wing group now?

02:14:12.480 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:14:13.120 Scientific American is a decided leftist editorial bias.

02:14:16.780 It does, I mean.

02:14:17.580 Well, I mean, I could—you could go to Scientific American and you could take issue with methodology

02:14:21.640 or debunk it, but if you're just going to say, well, it's left-wing.

02:14:23.840 No, I'm just saying it has—it does have an editorial perspective, which is left-wing.

02:14:26.980 And it's kind of silly that—

02:14:28.540 Well, the editorial—yeah, yeah, an editorial perspective where it's like what articles

02:14:33.380 that you're talking about on, like, given topics.

02:14:35.160 It could be, but if the data—the data, then the data is—

02:14:37.740 I think that that's kind of my point, though, is the notion that Scientific American would

02:14:42.020 be publishing a study on U.S. immigration policy and politics would be kind of silly, wouldn't it?

02:14:46.020 When you say something like Scientific American, do you think that Scientific American is just

02:14:49.460 like we put a chemical in a beaker and then this is what we want?

02:14:52.300 Yeah, well, initially they were focused on natural science and not immigration policy.

02:14:55.720 Sociology is a science.

02:14:57.620 Well, it's a—

02:14:58.400 Or social sciences are like when you talk about statistics and how those apply to—

02:15:04.620 By that standard, all of politics is a science.

02:15:05.860 Observational studies, though, right?

02:15:07.280 Huh?

02:15:07.560 By that standard, all of politics is a science.

02:15:11.040 There are scientific elements to politics, but if we're trying to—

02:15:14.300 And a lot of science institutions take political points of view.

02:15:16.440 You can use science to analyze because politics is a social system.

02:15:21.140 So you can look at how people behave.

02:15:23.840 You want to determine the likelihood that somebody votes for candidate X over candidate Y.

02:15:27.420 There are things that you can measure.

02:15:28.480 You can do observational studies trying to see—

02:15:31.140 Well, you know, this actually brings us full circle, even though I know I've kept you longer

02:15:34.180 than we were supposed to be.

02:15:35.200 Yeah, I think I've been getting calls from you.

02:15:36.800 But this actually does bring us full circle, which is back to different modes of inquiry and knowing

02:15:41.960 things, because we've arrived back at a very politicized type of science,

02:15:46.360 which is to use a scientific and clinical jargon to mask political priorities that derive from deeper first principles.

02:15:54.080 And so I guess the question I'd leave you on—

02:15:55.740 We've covered a wide range of topics.

02:15:57.340 We have.

02:15:58.020 I forgot how long it's been since we talked about abortion.

02:16:00.600 So did I convince you on anything?

02:16:03.400 No.

02:16:04.500 I thought I'd—

02:16:05.280 Along the way, you agreed with me on a few different things.

02:16:06.860 No, I didn't agree with you.

02:16:08.460 I think what you're talking about is when I said,

02:16:09.680 I'll grant you that they—that the fetus has human rights.

02:16:12.500 But the point is—

02:16:13.040 That's one further than that.

02:16:13.660 No, the point was, for the sake of argument, a fetus has rights according to everyone else.

02:16:17.840 But even if they do, the one right that they don't have is the same right that no one else has,

02:16:21.880 is the right to use somebody's body without their consent.

02:16:24.420 So is there not a—

02:16:25.460 So that's special right to life.

02:16:26.140 Is there not a contradiction there?

02:16:27.300 No.

02:16:27.740 Between the right to life and the right to an abortion?

02:16:30.360 No.

02:16:30.920 Because I think that if you're saying, it depends on what you mean the right to life.

02:16:33.880 I think everyone has a right to life, but you don't have the right to life

02:16:36.260 at the expense of the body of a person without their consent.

02:16:40.160 So you can live—you have the right to life.

02:16:42.400 Like, you shouldn't be—

02:16:43.060 Why do you have a right to life?

02:16:45.420 Why do you have a right to life?

02:16:47.040 I feel like I don't have an accurate depiction of what you entail by the right to life.

02:16:51.440 And it's saying the right to—

02:16:52.420 You just said we have one, though.

02:16:53.540 Yeah, no, I'm saying you can have a right to life.

02:16:56.080 Because I know you guys are saying, like, well, everyone has a right to life.

02:16:58.340 You can have that, however you want to think about that,

02:17:00.780 as long as it's not at the expense of another person's body without their consent.

02:17:04.200 Do you think the right to life is derivative from some other right?

02:17:08.580 That some other right would come before the right to life?

02:17:10.740 I don't think any rights come before a right.

02:17:12.800 I think they're kind of coexisting.

02:17:14.480 You don't have—

02:17:15.020 I think they're all identically—

02:17:16.700 You don't have one without the other.

02:17:17.840 It's kind of like a system.

02:17:18.620 If I took away the right to life, well, then you can't have bodily autonomy.

02:17:21.940 So true.

02:17:22.700 Because you die.

02:17:23.180 But if I take away the right to bodily autonomy—

02:17:25.320 You still could have the right to life.

02:17:26.680 No, that's like me saying, like, you're free or whatever,

02:17:29.520 and I set you free into a desert.

02:17:30.880 It's like, yeah, you're free to do whatever you want,

02:17:32.560 but you have nothing at your disposal.

02:17:33.680 You're probably going to die very quickly.

02:17:34.940 So if I say that you don't have the right to bodily autonomy,

02:17:36.980 but you have the right to life, well, yeah, you have the right to life

02:17:39.360 until someone needs your body to use, and then they're plugged into you,

02:17:42.560 and, yeah, you're still alive, but what kind of life is that?

02:17:45.400 No, well, those are distinct things, right?

02:17:46.800 No, it's not.

02:17:47.940 Those aren't distinct things.

02:17:48.460 Autonomy and life are not distinct things.

02:17:49.760 No, I'm saying they're distinct things in the sense that—

02:17:52.760 No, I think you just proved my point.

02:17:54.380 No, I'm saying that I can say that you have the right to life.

02:17:57.040 You could still be alive, but what kind of quality of life are you going to have

02:18:00.160 if we don't have—

02:18:01.800 Mothers are usually—

02:18:02.400 No, I'm saying if we don't have bodily autonomy as a rule,

02:18:05.920 and I say you can have the right to life, you just can't have the right to bodily autonomy.

02:18:08.900 Well, you can have the right to life.

02:18:10.420 I could be walking around, but if the government comes a-knocking

02:18:13.260 and because somebody needs my specific blood type, they can just abduct me

02:18:17.580 and use me as their donor, but that's not a good quality life, we wouldn't say.

02:18:23.520 So you don't have one without the other.

02:18:25.100 Do you have the right to shoot heroin right now?

02:18:28.140 No.

02:18:28.980 You don't.

02:18:29.440 So you don't have bodily autonomy?

02:18:31.280 No.

02:18:31.900 Because, again, when you're looking at heroin or something like that,

02:18:35.800 the same reason why it's not treated the same thing as marijuana,

02:18:37.960 because heroin not only is an inherent danger to yourself,

02:18:41.600 which is taking into account someone's bodily autonomy,

02:18:43.980 because it's like, yeah, you have the right to shoot up the heroin,

02:18:46.160 but in shooting up the heroin, you're probably going to be killing yourself

02:18:48.920 or endangering other people.

02:18:52.120 But you would certainly be hurting yourself.

02:18:53.400 Yeah, but it's not like something like marijuana.

02:18:55.300 I think you should have the right to smoke marijuana

02:18:57.320 because those two things are completely different.

02:18:59.160 But we're talking about heroin.

02:19:00.460 Yeah, so for heroin, no.

02:19:02.340 For marijuana, yes.

02:19:04.140 At least in the case of heroin, you are saying that it is perfectly fine

02:19:07.180 for the government to restrict my bodily autonomy

02:19:09.220 to stop me from doing something that would harm me, like heroin.

02:19:13.180 Yeah, in heroin.

02:19:14.900 So now we have limited bodily autonomy.

02:19:17.780 Yes, bodily autonomy has limits.

02:19:19.640 I'm not saying it's an absolute thing,

02:19:20.980 and the same thing that I don't think the right to life is an absolute thing,

02:19:23.760 in the example of self-defense.

02:19:25.440 We all agree that if you kill someone in self-defense,

02:19:27.700 they don't necessarily have the right to keep on living

02:19:29.900 if they're trying to kill you.

02:19:31.080 In the same way that bodily autonomy,

02:19:32.640 you don't have the right to, like,

02:19:33.980 my right to bodily autonomy ends where your nose begins.

02:19:36.340 So bodily autonomy is worth circumscribing

02:19:40.160 to stop you from shooting heroin,

02:19:42.540 but not worth circumscribing to stop you from killing your own child.

02:19:47.340 Again, if you say killing your own child,

02:19:49.840 that gives the kind of...

02:19:50.340 To ending the pregnancy, whatever you want to say.

02:19:51.540 To ending the pregnancy, no.

02:19:52.440 Because pregnancy is a biological process

02:19:54.320 that happens within a given group of people,

02:19:55.940 and they shouldn't be subjected to go through it at any given point

02:19:58.620 just because the government's going to arrest you

02:20:00.980 or prosecute you otherwise.

02:20:02.200 Okay, all right.

02:20:02.880 Because, again, consenting to pregnancy

02:20:04.180 doesn't mean you're consenting to staying pregnant.

02:20:05.580 So if you...

02:20:06.720 It is your belief that heroin...

02:20:10.660 Heroin has more value than your own child.

02:20:13.560 Yeah, the right to shoot heroin would be more valuable than protection.

02:20:16.320 And I know that...

02:20:16.900 More conducive to flourishing.

02:20:17.780 No, no, Michael, and I know that you know that.

02:20:19.880 Well, yeah, I think that's wrong.

02:20:21.180 I appreciate the couching, though.

02:20:22.880 Like, I know that you know that that's not what I meant,

02:20:25.020 but you're saying it...

02:20:26.200 I think deep down you know that's not true,

02:20:28.020 but you've had errors of reasoning.

02:20:30.660 No, because, again, I think that everything has limits.

02:20:32.700 I think that your right to life ends

02:20:34.800 if you're trying to aggress on another person

02:20:36.340 and you're trying to kill them.

02:20:38.060 And it's funny, I'm not going to go as far as to say

02:20:39.960 that the development of a fetus is necessarily an aggressor on that,

02:20:44.100 but you're violating somebody's structural integrity,

02:20:47.480 their bodily autonomy, especially if they don't want it.

02:20:49.860 At the end of the day, the process of pregnancy

02:20:51.560 is going to be violating your bodily autonomy to a certain extent.

02:20:54.880 If you're okay with that, then that's completely fine.

02:20:57.180 You're okay with that.

02:20:57.760 If you're not okay with that,

02:20:59.340 you shouldn't be forced to continue with that.

02:21:01.540 So I think that bodily autonomy could be limited

02:21:03.360 in, like, shooting heroin.

02:21:04.680 But I don't think it should be limited in that

02:21:06.180 if at any given point someone is to have sex with you,

02:21:09.840 then you have to continue with that.

02:21:11.380 And I think that if we are going to say that,

02:21:13.200 oh, it's a person...

02:21:13.320 I like the way you phrased that,

02:21:14.420 someone is to have sex with you.

02:21:15.700 Not that you have sex with you.

02:21:16.140 Yeah, because I...

02:21:16.940 No, because even though, like, rape is rare, right?

02:21:19.240 It's very rare.

02:21:19.800 But, like, what do we...

02:21:20.580 But, like, is a fetus any less of a person

02:21:23.200 if it's conceived through rape?

02:21:24.320 No, and I don't think that killing a baby

02:21:26.000 undoes the crime.

02:21:27.060 So, again, so it's like if we're to say

02:21:29.420 that bodily autonomy isn't really that important and...

02:21:33.020 No, it matters within its proper place.

02:21:34.740 Yeah, so rape is not one of those.

02:21:37.340 Yeah, no, that's a horrible crime.

02:21:38.600 But killing a baby is not going to undo a horrible crime.

02:21:41.760 It's just going to compound that

02:21:42.700 by adding another crime to it.

02:21:43.800 It compounds it either way

02:21:45.280 if you have to carry to term

02:21:46.400 and subject your body and your bodily autonomy

02:21:48.500 to the process that you didn't even set to begin.

02:21:51.040 It's a terrible crime, rape.

02:21:51.980 So why is one...

02:21:53.060 So it's funny how we talk about,

02:21:54.600 oh, equal value, equal life.

02:21:55.920 You're playing this calculus game

02:21:57.440 where you're saying,

02:21:58.520 well, it's not worth killing a baby.

02:22:00.080 That's completely...

02:22:00.660 No, I'll tell you exactly...

02:22:01.220 No, because you're saying that

02:22:02.940 this fetus has this particular amount of value

02:22:04.880 and we shouldn't do this,

02:22:05.980 we shouldn't circumvent,

02:22:07.240 or it doesn't matter what bodily autonomy

02:22:09.140 you're saying about

02:22:09.780 because at the end of the day,

02:22:10.840 you're killing a fetus.

02:22:11.640 But when a woman is,

02:22:13.560 even in the case of rape,

02:22:14.560 which admittedly is rare,

02:22:15.880 even in the case of rape,

02:22:17.060 you're saying,

02:22:17.920 well, you know,

02:22:18.820 terrible crime, terrible crime,

02:22:20.140 but what I'm saying is that

02:22:23.300 certain rights are derivative of other rights

02:22:26.300 and certain rights are more fundamental.

02:22:28.000 So in this case,

02:22:30.220 the conflict is not between the rights of the woman

02:22:32.600 and the rights of the child,

02:22:33.500 but rather the right to life

02:22:34.980 and the right to,

02:22:36.340 you say bodily autonomy,

02:22:37.500 which I don't think is a good definition of liberty,

02:22:39.520 but let's just say it is.

02:22:41.920 The right to life is not just one right among many,

02:22:44.440 but it's the fundamental right

02:22:45.620 without which none of the other rights exist.

02:22:47.100 Well, I don't think that there is.

02:22:47.640 Well, the reason is because if you're not alive,

02:22:49.680 you don't have the ability to exercise any other rights.

02:22:51.140 But if you are alive,

02:22:52.160 but what is the worth in being alive

02:22:53.540 if you don't have any of the other rights?

02:22:54.900 I think there's a lot to recommend living,

02:22:56.320 if I say you have the right to life,

02:22:57.360 even if you can't kill a kid.

02:22:58.440 If I say you don't have the right to life,

02:23:00.680 but if I say you do have the right to life,

02:23:02.280 but you don't have the right to bodily autonomy

02:23:04.140 or you don't have the right to like protection

02:23:05.860 or anything to say, right?

02:23:07.460 If you are strung up

02:23:08.900 and you're tortured by somebody, right?

02:23:12.260 You're alive.

02:23:13.840 But I think that the reason why

02:23:15.460 we put so much value on this right

02:23:16.980 to life,

02:23:17.400 which is why I wanted to ask you about it,

02:23:18.700 is because we assume that life

02:23:20.740 is this deistic thing.

02:23:23.540 We tie a lot of theology

02:23:26.480 or religious aspects

02:23:28.420 to the concept of being alive.

02:23:30.660 Well, all human conflict is ultimately alive.

02:23:31.960 I think that if you don't have life

02:23:33.580 in tandem with the other rights,

02:23:35.720 then your life is not worth,

02:23:38.020 like that's not a quality of life

02:23:39.380 that we should have.

02:23:39.760 So you're saying suffering would suggest

02:23:42.200 we all kill ourselves?

02:23:43.020 No, because I'm, no.

02:23:44.160 Jesus.

02:23:44.520 I admire how fast you like backflip.

02:23:48.860 Because my thing is,

02:23:49.580 what I'm saying is...

02:23:49.920 Just trying to follow these ideas.

02:23:51.020 Yeah, no, but I'm saying,

02:23:51.860 you're not.

02:23:52.440 But I'm saying,

02:23:53.240 I'm not saying that

02:23:55.220 because someone's life entails suffering,

02:23:57.400 that means that you just get killed.

02:23:59.160 You're saying,

02:23:59.540 what's the good of life?

02:24:00.420 No, I'm saying,

02:24:01.360 I'm saying that

02:24:02.260 why are we talking about,

02:24:03.720 oh, the right to life

02:24:04.700 is so fundamental

02:24:05.500 above all the other rights,

02:24:06.580 but if you don't have

02:24:07.680 all the other rights,

02:24:08.560 sure, you're living,

02:24:10.040 but that's no quality of life

02:24:12.040 that you're living.

02:24:13.060 Again, in the same way that I don't think...

02:24:14.200 I think life is still good.

02:24:15.340 I don't think if you're suffering,

02:24:16.600 even if you're suffering an immense amount,

02:24:18.100 that you should kill yourself.

02:24:18.520 So if you just have the right,

02:24:20.080 you think that life

02:24:20.900 is just inherently good,

02:24:22.620 whether or not

02:24:23.020 if you give someone

02:24:23.820 the right to life

02:24:24.420 and no other rights.

02:24:25.700 At the end of the day,

02:24:26.540 you're just breathing.

02:24:27.500 No, yeah,

02:24:27.920 I don't think that suffering

02:24:29.340 undermines entirely the right to life.

02:24:31.420 So someone could torture you mentally,

02:24:33.120 torture you physically,

02:24:34.100 within the inch of your life,

02:24:36.040 and that's preferable

02:24:38.080 than having...

02:24:40.120 To being murdered?

02:24:40.740 Yeah, yeah, I think so.

02:24:42.220 Because life always involves

02:24:44.140 some degree of suffering

02:24:45.080 and some people suffer more...

02:24:46.800 Yeah, but the rights that we have

02:24:47.960 in tandem with the right to life

02:24:49.820 decrease that degree of suffering.

02:24:52.200 Perhaps.

02:24:52.980 I mean, people...

02:24:53.460 Not perhaps.

02:24:54.200 That's a fact.

02:24:55.180 You can't have...

02:24:55.920 I don't know about that.

02:24:56.320 You can get all the way up

02:24:57.900 to being beat

02:24:58.540 within the inch of your life

02:24:59.540 and as long as you're still breathing,

02:25:01.720 you're good on that.

02:25:02.660 I'm saying we need to have

02:25:03.640 all of them at the same time

02:25:04.900 because without one,

02:25:06.700 you would drastically increase

02:25:07.880 the amount of stuff.

02:25:08.120 Do people have more rights today

02:25:09.500 than they did 50 years ago

02:25:11.180 or fewer rights?

02:25:12.640 I'd say more.

02:25:13.580 More rights.

02:25:14.300 Are people happier today

02:25:15.480 than they were 50 years ago

02:25:17.080 or less happy?

02:25:18.360 I'd say more happy.

02:25:19.960 Well, according to surveys

02:25:21.180 that measure happiness,

02:25:22.240 so take them for a grain of salt,

02:25:23.680 people are significantly less happy

02:25:25.720 and women especially

02:25:26.940 are both significantly less happy

02:25:28.540 as relates to men

02:25:30.060 and in objective terms.

02:25:31.600 And we can see this measured

02:25:32.440 in other ways

02:25:33.040 that are a little more objective.

02:25:34.040 Like deaths of despair,

02:25:35.980 deaths of suicide,

02:25:36.980 drug overdoses,

02:25:37.860 and the prescription

02:25:38.360 of antidepressant drugs

02:25:39.400 are all skyrocketing.

02:25:40.760 Again, that's a correlation

02:25:41.840 causation thing

02:25:42.760 where you're saying,

02:25:43.420 oh, because more rights

02:25:44.360 and less happiness,

02:25:45.140 that must mean that

02:25:45.940 one caused the other.

02:25:46.880 No, there are a lot of other

02:25:47.840 socioeconomic pressures

02:25:49.680 and everything that have gone into it

02:25:51.080 since the 1950s.

02:25:52.240 On top of that,

02:25:53.020 I'm pretty sure a lot of women

02:25:53.860 were lying about the happiness

02:25:55.680 in the 1950s

02:25:56.660 because you really didn't have rights.

02:25:57.760 I don't know why you would think that.

02:25:58.640 They wouldn't be lying now.

02:26:00.260 Why would they not be lying now?

02:26:01.540 Because they don't really face

02:26:02.760 any social,

02:26:03.380 as much social persecution

02:26:04.640 for lying.

02:26:06.020 So you're just saying

02:26:06.560 I just don't want to believe

02:26:07.500 that this chart

02:26:09.160 contradicts my view.

02:26:10.520 I'm saying humans are,

02:26:11.400 what do you mean?

02:26:11.780 What chart contradicts?

02:26:13.000 Well, even if I'm saying,

02:26:14.220 the chart that you're even saying,

02:26:16.080 even if I just made up

02:26:17.340 everything I just said,

02:26:18.380 the chart isn't even saying

02:26:19.220 what you're saying it is.

02:26:20.060 Because you're saying

02:26:20.500 because there are more rights

02:26:22.020 and look, less happy.

02:26:23.160 That means that more rights

02:26:24.000 equals less happy.

02:26:24.740 You're taking a leap

02:26:26.620 that isn't what you're bringing up.

02:26:28.780 I don't believe

02:26:29.260 that what we call rights today

02:26:30.400 really do constitute rights

02:26:31.560 like the right to abortion.

02:26:32.820 But I can't help but notice

02:26:33.960 that over the exact same time period

02:26:36.240 of the rise of feminism,

02:26:38.200 that women's happiness

02:26:39.080 has diminished

02:26:39.680 not only in line

02:26:40.900 with the happiness of men,

02:26:42.120 but also relative to men.

02:26:43.840 They've become even less happy

02:26:45.260 than men who have also

02:26:46.380 become less happy.

02:26:47.540 And it would seem to me,

02:26:48.740 look, I'm not saying it's firm,

02:26:50.020 but it would seem likely

02:26:50.920 that there might be

02:26:51.980 a correlation.

02:26:52.360 With the rise of the increase

02:26:54.300 of black rights

02:26:54.920 and black humanity,

02:26:56.440 happiness has decreased.

02:26:57.360 I'm not sure that black people

02:26:58.300 have more rights today.

02:26:59.380 You're not sure

02:26:59.980 that black people have more?

02:27:00.840 Well, then you agreed with me

02:27:02.180 that America's racist, right?

02:27:03.960 No, I don't think

02:27:04.720 that America's racist.

02:27:05.300 I mean, I agree with you

02:27:05.880 on some things.

02:27:06.460 I don't agree with you

02:27:07.380 that America's racist.

02:27:08.040 No, you just said

02:27:08.800 that we don't have...

02:27:09.420 No, black people don't have

02:27:10.600 anywhere near the right to life

02:27:11.780 that they had before Roe v. Wade,

02:27:12.960 which is why more black babies

02:27:14.300 are ordered in the room

02:27:15.180 in New York City than born.

02:27:16.480 Oh, boy, I've got to teach you

02:27:17.840 about some racial issues.

02:27:20.160 If you ever looked into why

02:27:21.740 that is that more...

02:27:23.620 Because I can give you

02:27:24.220 an actual correlation

02:27:25.700 that has a probably

02:27:26.540 stronger likelihood

02:27:27.300 of being true.

02:27:28.000 The reason why a lot

02:27:28.760 of black people

02:27:29.200 get way more abortions

02:27:30.180 is because lower

02:27:31.160 socioeconomic status determines...

02:27:32.680 I'm not saying

02:27:33.120 why they get it or not.

02:27:33.960 I'm just saying

02:27:34.480 that they're less likely

02:27:36.180 to enjoy their right to life.

02:27:38.300 They're less likely

02:27:38.960 to have the right

02:27:39.380 to their mother and father

02:27:40.180 in holy matrimony.

02:27:41.840 I'm going to operate

02:27:42.620 in your framework.

02:27:43.160 Yeah, they are very less likely

02:27:44.440 to have a right to life.

02:27:45.400 That's a very sad thing,

02:27:46.300 so I don't think

02:27:46.700 black people have more rights to that.

02:27:47.620 That's a product

02:27:48.080 of systemic racism.

02:27:50.560 I think it's a product

02:27:51.160 of liberalism,

02:27:52.100 is what I think.

02:27:52.720 And I think it's a product

02:27:53.460 of the very...

02:27:54.500 Yeah, I think it's a product

02:27:55.300 of the very things

02:27:56.360 that we are told

02:27:57.640 actually give black people

02:27:58.880 more rights.

02:27:59.580 Things like abortion,

02:28:01.180 things like the breakdown

02:28:02.220 of the family,

02:28:03.160 which I think deprive people.

02:28:04.220 We got told that

02:28:04.940 the breakdown of the family

02:28:06.080 gives people more rights?

02:28:07.860 Yeah, because the right

02:28:09.160 to divorce.

02:28:10.520 And the right

02:28:11.400 to sexual promiscuity

02:28:12.360 and sex out of wedlock.

02:28:14.040 Okay, wait.

02:28:14.960 Oh, jeez.

02:28:15.580 You throw so many things

02:28:17.000 at the same time

02:28:17.700 where it's kind of like...

02:28:18.460 Rapid fire.

02:28:19.460 Yeah, I don't know

02:28:20.740 how you do it.

02:28:21.180 It's like an AK.

02:28:21.940 But it's like,

02:28:23.220 I don't think that you...

02:28:24.860 I think when you're talking

02:28:25.740 about the rights

02:28:26.820 or the breakdown

02:28:28.140 of the family

02:28:28.900 and everything,

02:28:29.860 I don't think

02:28:30.200 that that's something

02:28:31.420 that...

02:28:32.060 It's also heavily steeped

02:28:34.200 in this kind of solar view.

02:28:36.940 There's one view

02:28:37.740 of how a family can operate.

02:28:39.800 And I think that

02:28:40.520 when you talk about

02:28:41.380 mass incarceration,

02:28:42.460 when you talk about

02:28:43.180 all the different social

02:28:44.460 phenomena that black people

02:28:45.540 have to put through

02:28:46.480 war on drugs and everything.

02:28:47.660 Black people are not

02:28:48.500 over-incarcerated

02:28:49.420 relative to the crime

02:28:50.460 that is committed

02:28:51.400 by that demographic.

02:28:53.320 It's not.

02:28:53.660 I know there's a myth

02:28:54.240 that it is,

02:28:55.080 but it isn't.

02:28:56.000 Black people are roughly

02:28:57.320 nine and a half times

02:28:58.260 as likely as white people

02:28:59.660 to be incarcerated

02:29:00.620 in the United States,

02:29:01.560 which is a shocking number.

02:29:02.980 This is according to,

02:29:03.920 just in the wake

02:29:04.460 of George Floyd,

02:29:05.240 the Minnesota Bureau

02:29:06.180 of Criminal Incarceration

02:29:08.400 or whatever it's called

02:29:09.100 published these statistics.

02:29:10.700 About nine and a half.

02:29:11.500 But black people

02:29:13.540 commit crimes,

02:29:14.720 general crime,

02:29:15.440 at roughly nine times

02:29:16.480 the rate of white people.

02:29:17.740 And serious crimes

02:29:18.320 at roughly ten times

02:29:19.160 the rate.

02:29:19.820 And murder at roughly

02:29:20.540 50 times the rate.

02:29:21.640 And robbery at roughly

02:29:22.640 107 times the rate.

02:29:23.660 And you saying murder

02:29:25.220 at 50 times the rate

02:29:26.040 gave me everything

02:29:26.620 I need to know

02:29:27.140 about how you're lying

02:29:27.900 about those statistics.

02:29:28.900 I'm not.

02:29:29.300 It's from the Minnesota government.

02:29:30.500 You just took as a 1350

02:29:32.040 saying that black people

02:29:33.180 commit 50% of murders

02:29:35.220 and everything.

02:29:35.740 That doesn't mean

02:29:36.000 there's going to be

02:29:36.520 murder at a rate

02:29:37.200 50 times higher.

02:29:38.380 No, I'm saying per capita

02:29:39.180 black people commit murder

02:29:41.240 at a, I'm not saying

02:29:42.060 that the majority

02:29:42.680 of black people

02:29:43.140 commit murder.

02:29:43.720 I'm saying that

02:29:44.840 per capita black people

02:29:46.120 are 50 times more likely

02:29:47.620 than white people

02:29:48.440 to commit murder.

02:29:49.940 I'm not going to lie.

02:29:51.220 I don't think that you're

02:29:52.400 honestly representing

02:29:53.320 those statistics.

02:29:53.760 I am.

02:29:54.060 It's from the Minnesota government.

02:29:55.460 The statistics have come out

02:29:56.480 just recently

02:29:56.980 in the last couple of years.

02:29:58.100 Furthermore,

02:29:58.980 you can see that

02:30:00.100 when it comes to

02:30:00.960 likelihood of being arrested

02:30:02.340 for a crime,

02:30:04.180 white people are 70%

02:30:05.680 more likely to be arrested

02:30:06.880 for any crime

02:30:07.740 than black people

02:30:08.420 and white people

02:30:10.560 are 60% more likely

02:30:11.820 to be from

02:30:12.540 the Minnesota Bureau

02:30:14.240 of Criminal,

02:30:16.060 I forget the last part,

02:30:17.980 but whatever their

02:30:18.620 justice statistics department

02:30:20.400 is,

02:30:20.720 it comes from them.

02:30:21.620 And white people

02:30:22.580 are 60% more likely

02:30:23.600 to be arrested

02:30:24.900 for serious crimes.

02:30:26.720 There's one exception.

02:30:27.540 More likely

02:30:27.920 or do they make up

02:30:28.800 60% and 70%

02:30:30.100 of the arrests?

02:30:30.700 No, more likely.

02:30:31.520 They're more likely.

02:30:32.600 There's one exception

02:30:33.280 which is weapons crimes

02:30:34.280 where black people

02:30:35.580 are more likely

02:30:36.080 to be arrested

02:30:36.560 than white people.

02:30:37.400 But yeah,

02:30:37.920 it's just a myth though,

02:30:38.860 the notion that

02:30:39.660 black people are unjustly

02:30:40.860 hunted down by the police

02:30:41.800 or something.

02:30:42.060 It's just completely made up.

02:30:43.340 I think that when you're

02:30:44.700 talking about,

02:30:45.700 first of all,

02:30:46.300 that's not even

02:30:46.900 taking into account

02:30:47.380 over-policing.

02:30:48.400 Because, okay.

02:30:49.300 I think we have a crime

02:30:50.100 problem in the country

02:30:50.780 which means we probably

02:30:51.400 have under-policing.

02:30:52.060 We have a crime problem?

02:30:52.320 Have we always had

02:30:52.880 a crime problem?

02:30:53.600 Well, crime has spiked.

02:30:54.880 It was really bad

02:30:55.660 in the early 90s

02:30:56.300 and it decreased

02:30:57.080 because of pro-police policies

02:30:58.360 and then it's increased again.

02:30:59.740 That's crazy

02:30:59.940 because the decrease

02:31:00.620 that happened in the early 90s

02:31:01.820 started decreasing

02:31:02.460 before even all the crazy

02:31:04.360 mass incarceration policies

02:31:05.620 ended up going into effect.

02:31:06.820 There's a decrease

02:31:07.440 that was,

02:31:08.480 there's a lot of social factors

02:31:09.540 that contributed

02:31:09.980 to why crime spiked

02:31:10.940 in the 90s

02:31:11.540 but the decrease started

02:31:12.480 before any actual policy

02:31:14.520 even became implemented

02:31:15.680 and then we started

02:31:16.540 locking up people.

02:31:16.740 Hell of a coincidence.

02:31:17.680 We started locking up people

02:31:18.900 at a higher rate

02:31:19.980 as opposed to like

02:31:20.840 the crimes

02:31:21.680 that they were being committed

02:31:22.380 and we were locking them up

02:31:23.320 for much longer

02:31:23.960 in comparison to other countries.

02:31:25.180 And the crime rate

02:31:25.660 remained quite low.

02:31:26.480 Crimes for stuff

02:31:27.140 for like burglary

02:31:27.960 and everything

02:31:28.680 and where it's served

02:31:30.380 at I think 60% longer

02:31:31.840 in the United States

02:31:33.140 as opposed to countries

02:31:34.220 with similar backgrounds.

02:31:34.700 Good.

02:31:34.980 I like locking up burglars.

02:31:36.260 I feel a lot safer

02:31:36.820 when we do that.

02:31:36.840 Yeah, except for that

02:31:37.580 doesn't fix anything.

02:31:39.520 It does

02:31:39.920 because it keeps

02:31:40.360 the criminals in jail

02:31:41.180 and then they don't

02:31:41.860 burglarize my house.

02:31:42.940 Okay.

02:31:43.760 I think that,

02:31:44.940 I think that that's

02:31:46.640 a very simplistic way

02:31:47.960 of looking at criminal justice

02:31:49.720 because it does keep

02:31:50.600 I have a simple view

02:31:51.700 of criminal justice.

02:31:52.520 Yeah.

02:31:52.740 We should lock up

02:31:53.240 the bad guys

02:31:53.860 and protect the good guys.

02:31:55.280 What is a bad guy?

02:31:56.060 The people who commit crimes.

02:31:57.500 What is a crime?

02:31:57.580 And we should lock them up

02:31:58.580 after they have due process.

02:32:00.240 It's a violation of the law.

02:32:02.660 Is it always just

02:32:03.720 to lock someone up with violence?

02:32:04.640 Well, an unjust law

02:32:05.880 is no law at all

02:32:06.800 which is why

02:32:07.440 it's a species of violence.

02:32:09.680 So do you know

02:32:10.260 what jury notification is?

02:32:12.140 I do know

02:32:13.060 what jury notification is.

02:32:13.480 Yeah, so the concept

02:32:14.560 of when a jury

02:32:15.240 will have reason

02:32:16.220 to believe that someone's guilty

02:32:17.200 they will acquit them anyway

02:32:18.360 because a lot of times

02:32:19.820 It's very unjust.

02:32:20.540 A lot of times

02:32:21.040 they believe that

02:32:21.620 an unjust law is

02:32:23.680 Sure, but I think

02:32:24.580 laws against burglary

02:32:25.440 are perfectly just.

02:32:26.500 Yeah, but something like

02:32:27.080 marijuana is something

02:32:28.340 that juries tend to nullify on

02:32:29.980 because of the disproportionate impact.

02:32:31.680 Virtually no one

02:32:32.420 is in prison in the United States

02:32:33.500 for simple possession of marijuana.

02:32:35.220 Sometimes they take plea deals

02:32:36.580 but it's exceedingly rare

02:32:38.940 for that to happen.

02:32:40.220 Well, when you talk about

02:32:40.760 the vast majority of prisoners

02:32:41.760 It's dependent on

02:32:43.880 the amount of marijuana

02:32:45.120 because a lot of times

02:32:46.020 it can be simple possession

02:32:47.160 but if you're caught

02:32:47.700 with the amount of marijuana

02:32:48.480 they assume that you're

02:32:49.320 a distributor also

02:32:50.260 and they charge you that way.

02:32:51.540 Yeah, I guess if you've got

02:32:51.600 a big brick of marijuana

02:32:52.660 you might just be

02:32:53.580 a big glutton for pot

02:32:54.680 but it's usually plea deals

02:32:56.480 for people who are

02:32:57.120 But I don't think that

02:32:57.800 I don't think when you talk about

02:32:59.180 keep the bad people away

02:33:00.860 that's like a fourth grade

02:33:02.640 level understanding

02:33:03.360 because like yeah

02:33:03.880 you can keep them away

02:33:04.760 but again

02:33:05.460 then what happens

02:33:06.300 when they have to come back

02:33:07.120 into society?

02:33:08.040 Yeah, you have to reintegrate them

02:33:09.160 after they've paid their debt

02:33:09.980 to society.

02:33:10.580 Yeah, but again

02:33:11.320 then that completely depends

02:33:13.020 on what we consider

02:33:13.840 to be bad

02:33:14.340 because if we're locking

02:33:14.920 someone up

02:33:15.340 a disproportionate amount

02:33:16.100 of time

02:33:16.300 Burglary, murder,

02:33:17.560 you know, petty theft,

02:33:18.980 assault.

02:33:20.220 Is that what it is?

02:33:21.380 Because I'm pretty sure

02:33:22.060 that the vast majority

02:33:22.860 of people who are in jail

02:33:25.100 are awaiting trial

02:33:26.580 and the vast majority

02:33:27.540 of people who are in jail

02:33:28.640 I'm pretty sure

02:33:28.980 there's more people in jail

02:33:30.420 than in prison.

02:33:31.120 Most of them are waiting

02:33:31.840 for trial

02:33:32.420 and a lot of them

02:33:33.040 are not intense felony

02:33:34.600 convictions.

02:33:35.300 A lot of the times

02:33:35.820 it's victimless crime

02:33:37.600 or it can be like

02:33:38.420 There's no such thing

02:33:39.000 as a victimless crime.

02:33:40.040 Over 60% of

02:33:41.180 It's like marijuana possession.

02:33:43.000 No, that creates

02:33:44.460 all sorts of victims.

02:33:45.620 But how?

02:33:46.300 Because you're peddling

02:33:47.300 drugs on society

02:33:48.240 which

02:33:48.560 How do you know

02:33:49.100 that they're peddling drugs?

02:33:50.180 And if they are peddling drugs

02:33:51.980 there's a difference

02:33:52.900 between like a recreational one

02:33:55.020 that is used

02:33:56.040 that doesn't necessarily

02:33:56.900 cause any harm

02:33:57.760 or one that's laced.

02:33:58.860 Like if you're lacing it

02:33:59.580 then yeah you should go to jail.

02:34:00.240 It's pretty bad, yeah.

02:34:01.060 But

02:34:01.240 Yeah, I think marijuana

02:34:02.160 just causes harm.

02:34:03.020 I think drugs generally

02:34:04.020 are bad.

02:34:04.880 That's why we have laws

02:34:05.420 against them.

02:34:05.800 But over 60%

02:34:07.320 of inmates

02:34:07.920 in state prisons

02:34:09.060 are there for violent crimes

02:34:10.720 for serious crimes.

02:34:11.620 They're not there

02:34:12.000 for dime bags.

02:34:13.860 In state prison.

02:34:14.620 Yeah, I mean

02:34:15.060 when it comes to

02:34:15.680 But the vast majority

02:34:16.460 of prisoners

02:34:16.840 are in state prisons

02:34:17.500 not federal prisons.

02:34:18.220 Yeah, the vast majority

02:34:18.960 of like when it comes to drug

02:34:20.060 it's not like

02:34:20.820 drug crimes

02:34:22.060 make up like a minority

02:34:23.340 of prison convictions.

02:34:26.640 Yes, but I'm saying

02:34:27.460 when it comes to

02:34:28.240 how these people

02:34:29.400 end up in circumstances

02:34:30.340 that they do

02:34:30.980 what courses

02:34:31.980 in their lives.

02:34:32.500 I know a lot of people

02:34:33.220 like if you kill

02:34:34.340 your rapist

02:34:34.840 you end up

02:34:35.280 you still get charged

02:34:36.240 for that or whatever.

02:34:37.200 Maybe.

02:34:37.840 You do, you do.

02:34:38.580 Maybe.

02:34:38.780 It depends on the circumstances.

02:34:40.380 There's plenty of

02:34:41.160 there's plenty of women

02:34:42.060 who and I'm actually

02:34:44.040 reading stories

02:34:44.700 about them right now.

02:34:45.940 Vigilantism is still

02:34:46.720 illicit necessarily.

02:34:47.740 On top of that

02:34:48.300 there are mental health

02:34:49.760 things that go into

02:34:50.680 one's propensity

02:34:51.600 to commit crime

02:34:52.360 and everything

02:34:52.720 so it's like just saying

02:34:53.620 the bad people go away

02:34:55.360 and doing nothing about

02:34:56.580 what we consider bad

02:34:58.120 and how people

02:34:58.660 I agree.

02:34:59.340 I'm all

02:34:59.540 It's just a very

02:35:01.860 draconian thing

02:35:02.480 and if you think

02:35:02.860 that it will lock

02:35:03.460 up people good

02:35:04.380 well I mean

02:35:04.920 you talk about

02:35:05.900 the breakdown

02:35:06.440 of the black family

02:35:07.280 when we went with

02:35:07.960 Breakdown of the family

02:35:08.620 broadly but especially

02:35:09.340 When we look at

02:35:10.040 the lock up

02:35:11.100 the bad people

02:35:11.960 after you all but

02:35:13.180 ensured that they'd be

02:35:14.120 committing a disproportionate

02:35:15.020 amount of crime

02:35:15.500 We're not locking up

02:35:16.540 family then.

02:35:17.340 We're not locking up

02:35:18.540 Cliff Fox

02:35:19.220 According to Michael Knowles

02:35:20.040 we're not locking up

02:35:20.760 According to statistics

02:35:21.700 Yeah okay

02:35:22.340 and yeah

02:35:23.140 because black fathers

02:35:23.940 are I think

02:35:24.420 four to five times

02:35:25.300 more likely

02:35:25.980 even when unmarried

02:35:27.020 to play with

02:35:27.860 to clothe

02:35:28.380 bathe

02:35:28.840 and be there

02:35:29.440 for their children

02:35:30.360 as compared to

02:35:30.940 white and hispanic fathers

02:35:32.100 but we still have

02:35:33.020 the myth of

02:35:33.380 black fatherlessness

02:35:33.920 What does that mean?

02:35:35.260 I mean we still have

02:35:36.060 the myth of

02:35:36.440 black fatherlessness

02:35:37.160 right?

02:35:37.900 Yeah

02:35:38.060 Well I don't know

02:35:38.940 about the myth

02:35:39.420 I mean three quarters

02:35:40.340 of black children

02:35:40.860 were born out of wedlock

02:35:41.820 Three quarters of black

02:35:43.180 children almost

02:35:43.680 are born out of wedlock

02:35:44.400 in the United States

02:35:45.060 Yeah and even then

02:35:46.280 why is that a bad thing?

02:35:47.940 Well for one reason

02:35:49.320 it's a great predictor

02:35:50.840 of bad outcomes

02:35:51.960 down the road

02:35:52.520 No

02:35:52.720 Single parenthood is

02:35:54.500 Out of wedlock

02:35:55.340 is not

02:35:55.900 Out of wedlock

02:35:56.640 just means that

02:35:57.080 the parents are not married

02:35:58.340 and that's the statistics

02:35:59.800 I was telling you about

02:36:00.460 despite not being married

02:36:01.740 black fathers are still

02:36:02.740 more likely than any

02:36:03.660 other demographic

02:36:04.160 to be there

02:36:04.920 and raise their children

02:36:05.960 but we still have

02:36:06.760 this myth in our brains

02:36:07.860 that black people are

02:36:08.900 Why don't they get married?

02:36:10.100 Why don't they get married?

02:36:11.360 There's many reasons

02:36:12.100 for not getting married

02:36:12.800 a lot of times

02:36:13.440 it can be expenses

02:36:14.780 You go down to the court

02:36:17.240 That doesn't necessarily

02:36:18.860 like change anything

02:36:19.800 It's not expensive

02:36:21.000 to get married

02:36:21.440 Yeah even then

02:36:22.260 it still doesn't really

02:36:22.980 change anything

02:36:23.460 black families

02:36:24.780 that do have

02:36:25.660 married parents

02:36:26.220 still have way less

02:36:27.880 income and way less

02:36:28.660 upward mobility

02:36:29.440 than white parents

02:36:30.620 who are married anyway

02:36:31.760 Yeah but you're not

02:36:32.780 distinguishing between

02:36:33.780 married couples

02:36:34.400 and unmarried couples

02:36:35.180 Yeah no I'm saying

02:36:35.960 You're distinguishing between

02:36:36.240 Yeah

02:36:36.460 uniting two incomes together

02:36:38.840 can be a good thing

02:36:40.120 but I'm saying

02:36:40.600 you don't necessarily

02:36:41.240 Marriage is about

02:36:41.740 more than income

02:36:42.920 wouldn't you agree?

02:36:44.880 For me like

02:36:45.720 in a value sense

02:36:46.740 yeah I'd say

02:36:47.220 I'd prefer to get married

02:36:48.320 but that doesn't mean

02:36:49.140 that people who

02:36:49.820 aren't getting married

02:36:50.640 are somehow wrong

02:36:51.560 or immoral

02:36:52.220 Well statistically

02:36:53.180 their kids are more

02:36:54.320 likely to end up

02:36:54.920 in prison

02:36:55.300 more likely to end up

02:36:56.020 on drugs

02:36:56.340 and more likely

02:36:56.940 to not make a lot of money

02:36:58.060 That's single parenthood

02:36:58.720 That's defined in law

02:36:59.680 as being out of wedlock

02:37:00.800 No it's not

02:37:01.300 That's what single parenthood is

02:37:02.420 No it's not

02:37:03.240 Well yeah

02:37:03.560 they don't take into account

02:37:04.900 couples that are still together

02:37:06.520 but just not married

02:37:07.440 Those stats are from people

02:37:08.580 who are solely

02:37:09.380 who have sole custody

02:37:10.540 it's either a single mother

02:37:11.760 or a single father

02:37:12.780 Yes being raised by one parent

02:37:15.140 is going to drastically

02:37:15.900 increase your outcomes

02:37:16.940 but getting married

02:37:18.300 does not magically

02:37:19.720 make that go away

02:37:21.360 if they were raising you already

02:37:22.560 they just weren't married

02:37:23.360 It does

02:37:24.200 That statistic refers to

02:37:25.580 out of wedlock

02:37:26.180 not merely to

02:37:27.080 mothers who never see

02:37:28.460 the fathers of their children

02:37:30.180 It refers to single parents

02:37:31.980 There is no statistic

02:37:32.940 that out of wedlock

02:37:34.060 as in the parents

02:37:35.000 are still there

02:37:35.620 because when it says

02:37:36.060 out of wedlock

02:37:36.760 it could be

02:37:37.340 Oh so you're saying

02:37:37.760 there's no way to measure

02:37:38.860 the parents who are still there

02:37:40.360 So you're saying

02:37:40.980 there is no statistic

02:37:41.760 for the point

02:37:42.160 that you're trying to prove

02:37:42.780 No

02:37:42.920 Right

02:37:43.340 What do you mean?

02:37:44.540 You're saying

02:37:44.900 there's no statistic

02:37:45.680 for couples who are together

02:37:47.040 No because statistics

02:37:47.060 that do include

02:37:50.020 the parents that are still together

02:37:51.500 just not married

02:37:52.380 show how likely

02:37:53.680 black fathers are

02:37:54.620 to be with their dads

02:37:55.420 show their likelihood

02:37:56.440 of positive outcome

02:37:57.320 The marriage certificate

02:37:58.620 isn't getting them

02:37:59.680 such better

02:38:00.680 socioeconomic outcomes

02:38:01.900 because it doesn't matter

02:38:02.580 whether or not

02:38:03.020 you are legally unioned

02:38:04.260 as one income

02:38:05.860 or like two separate incomes

02:38:07.000 in one household

02:38:07.500 if you guys are both working

02:38:09.000 and bringing in income

02:38:10.020 for your children

02:38:10.500 you just don't have

02:38:11.200 a marriage certificate

02:38:12.340 I'm a little skeptical

02:38:13.200 because I haven't seen

02:38:13.980 those studies

02:38:14.480 but perhaps you'll send them

02:38:15.860 over to me

02:38:16.200 I can send them

02:38:16.700 I look forward to that

02:38:17.540 In any case

02:38:18.380 we've gone about an hour over

02:38:19.760 but I've enjoyed it

02:38:20.840 very much JJ

02:38:21.620 thank you very much

02:38:22.800 for coming on

02:38:23.520 did I convince you

02:38:25.420 of anything?

02:38:26.860 No I don't think so

02:38:27.860 I think the framing

02:38:29.380 and the stuff

02:38:30.080 was a little bit wonky

02:38:31.560 Okay alright

02:38:32.260 maybe next time

02:38:33.060 I'll have better luck

02:38:33.900 Maybe next time

02:38:34.460 Thank you JJ

02:38:35.420 Thank you very much

02:38:36.680 for watching

02:38:37.180 See you next time

02:38:37.960 Thank you

02:39:06.340 Thank you

The Michael Knowles Show - October 07, 2023

Michael Knowles DEBATES Viral BLM Activist ｜ Joshua Joseph

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