The Michael Knowles Show - Michael Knowles DEBATES Viral Pro-Choice Activist

00:00:00.000 If you want to look at that, then you would like to look at that.

00:00:02.780 This isn't an ultrasound.

00:00:03.880 No, this is a nine-week fetus in a Petri dish.

00:00:06.140 In a Petri dish?

00:00:06.920 It's just really ghastly to show a picture of a person who's been killed.

00:00:10.180 People such as yourself like to share propaganda about this issue.

00:00:14.600 And I am here to try to present a medically accurate representation of this issue.

00:00:20.740 Of what a murder victim looks like.

00:00:21.740 Of what this issue is.

00:00:30.000 One of the great sorrows of my life is that liberals never want to talk to me.

00:00:35.700 Me, little old me, whom everybody loves so.

00:00:37.720 Very few want to talk to me.

00:00:39.180 I invite liberals on this show.

00:00:40.620 They say no, with some exceptions.

00:00:42.860 One of the most successful popular videos that we've put out was a debate that I had

00:00:47.720 with a popular social media influencer on the left on the topic of abortion

00:00:51.940 who did have the guts to come on this show.

00:00:54.220 And not only that, she did so well that we decided we had to invite her out here

00:00:59.760 and that person would be Bronte Remzik.

00:01:02.160 Bronte, thank you for coming out all the way to Tennessee.

00:01:05.420 And welcome to the Daily Wire Studios.

00:01:07.300 Thank you.

00:01:07.940 Good to be here.

00:01:08.660 I hope that I can kind of introduce your viewers to a new perspective.

00:01:12.520 That's, you know, I suspect they have been introduced,

00:01:15.820 but perhaps you will change some people's minds.

00:01:17.920 For the occasion, I'm having a very pink drink of some sort.

00:01:22.400 This is my most feminist quality.

00:01:25.720 You are, Bronte, a third-year medical student.

00:01:28.500 People can find you on TikTok and throughout social media.

00:01:31.720 And you have a website as well where you've got all of your ideas and merchandise.

00:01:37.080 Yes.

00:01:37.560 Yes.

00:01:37.860 That would be Be Kind and Curious.

00:01:40.260 Yes, BeKindandCurious.com.

00:01:41.820 Okay.

00:01:42.820 I consider myself kind.

00:01:44.920 I am extremely curious.

00:01:47.400 You have done us the great honor of coming out here

00:01:50.840 and gone through all the hassle that it takes to get to Tennessee.

00:01:53.060 See, so you are staunchly in favor of abortion.

00:01:57.160 I am your captive audience.

00:01:59.000 If you had to give me the elevator pitch, what would it be?

00:02:02.680 Absolutely.

00:02:03.460 So what I would really like to start this conversation off with

00:02:06.400 and make very clear from the start for both you and your viewers

00:02:09.360 is I am not saying that you are wrong for being uncomfortable with abortion.

00:02:14.680 I'm not saying that you are wrong for not agreeing with it.

00:02:18.380 But your opinion applies to your body and your life alone.

00:02:23.060 We are not sitting here having a discussion about our personal disagreements.

00:02:28.520 I am here to educate you and your viewers on the guidelines of proper medical practice

00:02:33.840 that have been established by our country's leading medical experts.

00:02:37.440 And they have stated publicly and unequivocally that abortion access is essential

00:02:42.440 to comprehensive, evidence-based health care.

00:02:45.600 And we both want to protect life.

00:02:48.360 And what remains true is protecting innocent life never involves restricting access to health care.

00:02:54.660 So two questions I have from that.

00:02:58.120 You mentioned that all of the genius medical people agree in our country that we need to have abortion.

00:03:03.620 Now, surely all of the genius medical people have agreed on all sorts of practices throughout history,

00:03:09.160 even in the not-so-distant past, that are quite terrible for people.

00:03:14.500 One good example would be lobotomies.

00:03:16.360 There was a scientific consensus in the country that when women are behaving a little eccentric,

00:03:21.120 we should go in and scramble up their brains.

00:03:23.340 And they used these kinds of procedures throughout the 20th century.

00:03:27.320 Now we look at that as ghastly and a violation of basic rights.

00:03:31.920 But this was a medical consensus.

00:03:33.840 So surely you're not telling me that just because a bunch of fancy people in lab coats

00:03:37.700 think something about a matter of bioethics, that therefore it's the gospel truth.

00:03:42.040 Well, a big part of the prior travesties of medicine is there was not consent from patients.

00:03:49.000 And there wasn't proper informed consent from patients.

00:03:52.760 Where when it comes to abortion, you continuously say that I am pro-abortion,

00:03:57.000 when really I am pro-abortion access.

00:03:59.980 And abortion access and the discussion of having an abortion should be between the patient

00:04:04.940 and the medical provider.

00:04:07.360 And that is it.

00:04:08.620 And the entire concept and the entire point is that the pregnant person gets to consent

00:04:14.780 to continue with their pregnancy and must consent to the use of their body.

00:04:19.340 Because they are the one that understands their body and their life and their finances

00:04:23.520 and everything that makes up the complexities of human life.

00:04:26.960 They are the only ones who are able to decide and understand what is best for them

00:04:31.240 with the guidance of proper modern medical practices.

00:04:36.240 And it is true that our world and our country's leading medical minds have, like I said, unequivocally

00:04:42.860 stated that abortion access is essential to comprehensive, evidence-based health care.

00:04:49.280 And your opinion can remain your opinion, but it does not get to override the opinion

00:04:55.080 of people who train their entire lives to provide health care to people.

00:04:59.000 Well, so on the matter of consent, obviously the clear rebuttal to that would be that abortion

00:05:03.780 involves not two people, but three people, one of whom is the unborn baby.

00:05:07.040 Now, I imagine you would have issues with that description, so we can get to that in a moment.

00:05:11.180 The first thing you said, though, is that I'm entitled to my opinion, but I'm only entitled

00:05:16.060 to my opinion as it pertains to my own body, and I'm not entitled to an opinion about what

00:05:21.540 you do with your own body.

00:05:23.120 But do you really believe that?

00:05:24.420 Do you really believe that people can only have opinions about things that pertain to

00:05:28.640 their physical selves?

00:05:30.480 I can't have an opinion about, I don't know, a sunset, or I don't know how automobiles are

00:05:37.420 made, or I don't know, drug use or anything like that.

00:05:40.840 I can't have an opinion about politics, how our government should be run, or how our political

00:05:44.660 community ought to behave.

00:05:46.060 I can only have opinions about myself.

00:05:48.960 No, I think you misunderstand me.

00:05:50.760 You can have your opinion about anything and anyone that you'd like, but that opinion cannot

00:05:55.540 restrict someone's access to health care.

00:05:57.800 You can disagree with someone's choice to get an abortion, but just because you disagree

00:06:03.060 with it doesn't mean that your opinion should override the opinion of their medical experts.

00:06:07.960 Can my opinion be put into effect to restrict someone's access to drugs like heroin?

00:06:17.600 Well, in what way?

00:06:19.660 Well, we have self-government in the United States, at least nominally.

00:06:23.220 And so if I think that heroin is really bad, and I think we ought to have laws against its

00:06:27.800 use, then I can lobby my elected representatives and they can pass a law, as they have, against

00:06:32.280 heroin.

00:06:32.640 And then you are not allowed to use heroin, even though that affects only your own body.

00:06:37.940 I have now expressed my opinion about heroin in such a way that it restricts what you can

00:06:42.840 do with your own body.

00:06:44.260 Are you saying that that is not acceptable?

00:06:46.620 So actually, with laws regarding drugs, it is illegal to buy and sell drugs, but it's not

00:06:52.800 actually illegal to do drugs.

00:06:55.160 Because you can't tell me...

00:06:56.400 It depends on the jurisdiction.

00:06:57.520 True.

00:06:58.000 But you cannot tell me what I can or cannot do with my body.

00:07:01.500 Again, you can totally and rightfully so disagree with someone's choice to do drugs, but that

00:07:08.600 doesn't mean that we shouldn't, as health care providers, ensure that that, say, drug user

00:07:15.420 is able to make informed choices about their body.

00:07:18.380 Are you familiar with, like, clean needle programs?

00:07:21.880 I am, yeah.

00:07:22.480 Correct.

00:07:23.040 And so clean needle programs, they reduce disease transmission.

00:07:27.360 And so even though someone is going to choose to do drugs, it is the responsibility of medical

00:07:32.280 experts and health care providers to ensure that we cannot, you know, we cannot change someone's

00:07:38.840 choices and behavioral patterns, but we can ensure that we provide them resources and able

00:07:44.020 to ensure that their decisions and the impact of their decisions is minimized in whatever way

00:07:49.560 that we can.

00:07:50.000 Bronte, putting aside for a moment the efficacy of clean needle programs, which I think is

00:07:54.600 dubious, but that might be a discussion for another day, I think you're evading the question

00:07:58.040 a little bit here.

00:07:58.680 Because you're suggesting that drug use is not criminal in all cases, which is not the

00:08:06.100 case.

00:08:06.360 There are all places where drug use is quite...

00:08:07.980 Where the use of the drugs itself is criminal.

00:08:09.840 But even so, let's take that...

00:08:12.440 Let's accept your premise.

00:08:14.400 Nevertheless, purchasing the drugs would be illegal.

00:08:17.180 Now, this is something you do with your own body, with your own money.

00:08:20.080 This is...

00:08:20.780 It's the very same issue, just removed one step.

00:08:24.540 So is it all right for me to express my opinion about illicit drug use, to restrict you from

00:08:30.940 doing something that you want to do?

00:08:32.680 Be that shooting the heroin, purchasing the heroin, putting the heroin in a syringe, whatever

00:08:37.360 you want to say.

00:08:37.980 And clearly, I am restricting your bodily autonomy here.

00:08:42.880 And that has been done throughout civilization.

00:08:45.720 That remains on the books in the United States.

00:08:47.640 So are you saying that drug laws are basically some sort of travesty?

00:08:52.500 No, of course not.

00:08:53.540 Because it's a matter of public health.

00:08:55.340 Now, when we talk about pregnancy and abortion, essentially, what causes pregnancy is sex, correct?

00:09:01.200 And we cannot outlaw sex, unless that's something that you are trying to bring forth.

00:09:06.660 And so when it comes to laws limiting someone's ability to have bodily autonomy or limit someone's

00:09:13.740 ability to behave in a certain way, sex and pregnancy and abortion is a very unique circumstance.

00:09:20.840 And sure, we can talk all day about some convoluted drug analogy.

00:09:25.060 But at the end of the day...

00:09:25.560 I don't think it's convoluted.

00:09:26.200 Well, I know.

00:09:27.240 That's your opinion.

00:09:28.340 But we cannot outlaw sex.

00:09:30.680 And sex happens for numerous reasons.

00:09:33.580 And pregnancy can be accidental and unwanted.

00:09:35.980 And so trying to compare it to illegalizing drug use, it's not completely analogous to illegalizing

00:09:43.040 and banning abortion.

00:09:44.340 Because sex and drug use are two very different things.

00:09:47.280 And they happen for two very different reasons.

00:09:49.060 Right.

00:09:49.240 I suppose I'm just discussing the principle that you described earlier, which is that I don't

00:09:54.440 have the right to an opinion that affects what you do with your own body.

00:09:58.400 But even leaving that aside, you say that we can't make sex illegal.

00:10:02.580 I don't think anybody wants to make sex illegal.

00:10:04.560 But historically, all sorts of sex has been illegal.

00:10:07.660 And all sorts of sex remains illegal today.

00:10:10.120 There are certain sexual behaviors, even in our more decadent and inclusive age, that are

00:10:15.180 illegal.

00:10:15.520 Obviously, sex with children or sex with animals, things like that.

00:10:18.460 Historically, sex outside of marriage has been illegal in many places.

00:10:23.820 Homosexual sexual activities have been illegal in many places.

00:10:26.520 So we've had laws in the United States and continue to have laws that regulate sex.

00:10:32.720 All of that, though, I wonder.

00:10:34.300 So historically, those are the facts.

00:10:37.040 And doesn't that seem to be a little bit beside the point when it comes to abortion?

00:10:41.160 Because now we're saying, you know, consenting adults above the age of 18, they can have

00:10:46.200 all the sex they want.

00:10:47.320 But if you do have sex and you do get pregnant, well, you don't have the right to kill the

00:10:50.840 baby.

00:10:52.640 Well, when you talk about things like, you know, having sex with children or animals being

00:10:57.680 illegal, that's because they can't properly consent to have sex.

00:11:01.460 When we're talking about consent or sex with, you know, consensual sex between adults, that

00:11:07.380 happens for multiple reasons.

00:11:09.060 People have sex for social reasons, social connections, psychological reasons, not just

00:11:14.600 for the reason of procreation.

00:11:16.240 And so, sure, pregnancy can happen accidentally and unwanted, but consent must be enthusiastic

00:11:22.460 and ongoing.

00:11:24.140 And so when we talk, you know...

00:11:25.320 What if it's only timid, tepid consent?

00:11:27.400 You know, sort of, well, I'll do it, but, you know, I'm not happy about it.

00:11:30.380 That's a really big problem in our society right now.

00:11:32.580 And, you know, that's something that people will take, you know, the small...

00:11:36.720 You know, people will push people to say yes.

00:11:38.740 And that's why we say sex should be enthusiastic and ongoing.

00:11:42.800 Because if you are trying to have sex with someone who's not enthusiastic about it, then

00:11:46.780 maybe you should second-guess your choices.

00:11:48.700 But isn't that a bit...

00:11:49.680 I agree with you entirely, but isn't that a bit sex-negative of you to say that?

00:11:53.520 That there is a certain way that one should engage in consensual sex?

00:11:57.940 I mean...

00:11:58.500 No.

00:11:58.820 You don't think so?

00:11:59.420 No, because enthusiasm is expressed, you know, differently between people.

00:12:03.580 It doesn't mean that you have to be jumping up and down.

00:12:05.680 I just mean that the person who's consenting is consenting, you know, very clearly and enthusiastically

00:12:10.960 in their own way and not being pressured into saying yes, not being timid about saying yes.

00:12:16.600 You know, you are ensuring that they are saying yes, you know, out of their own validity.

00:12:20.440 And when we talk...

00:12:21.720 I want to compare, like, sex with pregnancy, right?

00:12:23.800 Because we're talking about consent.

00:12:25.060 So you understand that sex can be a fun and beautiful thing without, you know, people

00:12:30.100 do for lots of different reasons.

00:12:31.720 But it's only fun and beautiful when it's consensual.

00:12:35.100 And when sex is not consensual, it can be traumatic and devastating for people.

00:12:39.720 Sure.

00:12:40.000 The same thing for pregnancy.

00:12:41.420 When pregnancy is consensual and pregnancy is wanted, it can be a beautiful thing.

00:12:47.680 But when pregnancy is unwanted and non-consensual, then it can be a very traumatic and devastating

00:12:53.960 thing.

00:12:54.420 Well, you know, I suspect it can be both in either case.

00:12:59.380 I mean, I think not only of the experience of my wife, but of many of my friends who have

00:13:04.660 had kids.

00:13:05.780 And they want kids and they intentionally get pregnant, or at least they are happy when

00:13:10.500 they find out that they accidentally become pregnant.

00:13:12.320 But there's still a lot of trauma involved in that.

00:13:14.600 I mean, there's a lot of suffering that comes along with that.

00:13:17.220 That's part of pregnancy and childbirth and life generally.

00:13:20.960 You know, life involves some degree of suffering.

00:13:22.960 So it just seems what you're saying is, when the pregnancy is desired, that is beautiful

00:13:31.580 and we should celebrate it.

00:13:33.240 And when the pregnancy is not desired, then you ought to be able to end it, meaning end

00:13:38.600 the little baby.

00:13:39.620 And it reminds me of what the, you see this with the royal family.

00:13:43.400 The royal family, you know, the princess gets pregnant and they say, we have the royal baby.

00:13:47.940 The baby's only 10 weeks in gestation.

00:13:49.800 But they say, this is a royal baby, but then some left-wing woman goes on television and

00:13:54.480 says, you know, I just had an abortion.

00:13:56.220 Well, that's never a baby.

00:13:57.180 That's just a clump of cells.

00:13:58.240 But we're talking about the exact same thing, right?

00:13:59.740 We're talking about a child at, who knows, 15 weeks gestation, 20 weeks gestation, let's

00:14:04.340 say.

00:14:04.780 So, yes, I understand that the experience of sex in pregnancy can be felt differently in

00:14:12.020 different circumstances.

00:14:13.080 But the baby himself would be the same in both circumstances.

00:14:17.480 It's just in one, we celebrate his beautiful baby life, and in the other, we kill him as

00:14:21.600 a clump of cells.

00:14:22.800 So, when it comes to medical terminology, it's actually an embryo or a fetus.

00:14:28.680 And when you call it a clump of cells, I agree that that can feel dehumanizing.

00:14:33.160 But on the same side, when you call it a baby, that's also anthropomorphizing.

00:14:37.580 So, I think that, right.

00:14:38.640 And so, neither side is correct in its entirety, and that doesn't remove, what?

00:14:44.860 Well, I guess you're entirely right that the, I mean, you mentioned the word fetus, which

00:14:51.660 ironically is dehumanizing, although the word fetus, you know, the Latin word fetus just

00:14:57.580 means offspring, and we're referring to human beings here.

00:15:00.060 But doesn't the question hinge on which language should we use?

00:15:04.640 So, one is dehumanizing, one is anthropomorphizing, in other words, humanizing.

00:15:09.460 So, then, isn't the question that we have to answer, is this thing that we're talking

00:15:13.580 about a human or not?

00:15:15.160 And if it is a human, then we should only use the anthropomorphizing language, and if

00:15:19.240 it is not a human, then we should only call him a clump of cells.

00:15:21.940 Well, when it comes to medicine and medical practice, it is, you are, you call it a fetus,

00:15:27.380 and the reason...

00:15:27.920 But I don't call it a fetus.

00:15:28.960 Well, but you're also not a medical professional, are you, Mike?

00:15:30.740 But I'm a human being with rational faculties who describes the world around him, right?

00:15:34.280 True, but you aren't having discussions with pregnant people, and when...

00:15:37.960 I often am, yeah.

00:15:39.440 As a medical professional.

00:15:40.840 So, there are articles written for medical professionals about how to have these conversations,

00:15:45.620 and it is appropriate to call it a fetus.

00:15:48.140 And when the pregnancy is wanted, it is also appropriate to call it a baby when that pregnancy

00:15:54.600 is wanted and desired, and you are trying to create a comforting and accepting environment

00:15:59.560 for that pregnant person.

00:16:01.080 But from a medical standpoint, it is completely appropriate to call it a fetus until you understand

00:16:07.060 where your patient is at in their mentality regarding their pregnancy.

00:16:10.740 Is that guidance that doctors get?

00:16:13.460 If the mother wants to be pregnant, then you can call it a baby.

00:16:19.140 But if the mother doesn't want to be pregnant, you don't call it a baby?

00:16:22.660 It depends.

00:16:23.460 It's...

00:16:23.720 That's amazing that that's the medical guidance.

00:16:25.720 Yeah, well, it's all about creating a comfortable and appropriate environment for the patient

00:16:30.720 because we care about the mentality of the patient, and you want the patient to be able

00:16:35.420 to make an informed choice.

00:16:36.800 You want the patient to feel comfortable in your exam room.

00:16:39.940 And calling it a fetus when it is a wanted pregnancy can make them feel detached from that

00:16:45.400 pregnancy.

00:16:45.780 But also calling it a baby when it is an unwanted pregnancy can put, you know, unnecessary pressure

00:16:51.380 and fear onto that pregnant person.

00:16:53.920 But you don't believe that whether or not the baby is human hinges on whether or not

00:17:00.040 the mother desires the baby or fetus.

00:17:02.480 It's...

00:17:03.040 The question...

00:17:03.500 You don't think that the desire is the determining factor for the ontology of the embryo?

00:17:09.700 The embryo is human.

00:17:10.880 That's not within question.

00:17:12.680 It is a human embryo.

00:17:13.840 It is a human fetus.

00:17:13.920 So then why wouldn't you use anthropomorphizing language?

00:17:16.240 Why wouldn't you refer to it in human language?

00:17:17.840 Because language is often emotional, and pregnancy is an emotional state for someone to be in.

00:17:23.460 And as a medical professional, you have to be conscious of the way that your words affect

00:17:28.560 the patient.

00:17:29.280 And so you would lie to the patient?

00:17:31.040 It's not lying.

00:17:31.860 Well, you said it is lying, because you said the baby or fetus or whatever you want to say

00:17:35.300 is a human.

00:17:36.760 And you said the word baby is humanizing language.

00:17:39.480 So you're describing the human being with humanizing language, unless you say that the emotions

00:17:46.640 of the pregnant mother are such that you don't want to describe the human being in humanizing

00:17:52.640 language.

00:17:53.180 And so you describe the human being in dehumanizing language.

00:17:56.240 How do you...

00:17:56.720 And you're doing it knowingly.

00:17:58.000 You've just admitted the baby's human.

00:17:59.680 Yeah.

00:17:59.920 How would you describe that other than telling a lie?

00:18:02.720 I didn't say that anthropomorphizing was necessarily a negative thing.

00:18:06.640 And as I said, saying fetus is medical terminology, and it is appropriate.

00:18:11.140 It is appropriate description.

00:18:11.920 But it's dehumanizing, you said.

00:18:13.460 No.

00:18:14.780 Calling it a clump of cells is dehumanizing.

00:18:17.140 Oh, OK.

00:18:17.400 Calling it a fetus is not dehumanizing.

00:18:19.260 It's medically appropriate, and it's medically consistent with how you should define...

00:18:24.740 Then why the distinction?

00:18:25.920 Why are you given the guidance to call it a fetus to the woman who doesn't want the baby

00:18:32.200 and a baby to the woman who does want the baby?

00:18:35.080 I've explained this to you, but I can explain it again.

00:18:37.080 Maybe I'm just a little slow.

00:18:38.160 That's OK.

00:18:38.640 I'll slow it down for you then.

00:18:39.860 It depends on the mentality of the pregnant person and how they feel towards that pregnancy.

00:18:45.060 Because as a medical professional, in that exam room, you are trying to create a comfortable

00:18:49.720 environment where that patient understands what their options are and what their situation is.

00:18:55.840 And so when you are trying to identify how they feel about their current medical state,

00:19:01.200 you want to use language that creates a comfortable environment for them.

00:19:05.140 So how do those two words affect their emotional statement?

00:19:09.020 What is the reason for the distinction?

00:19:12.420 When a pregnant mother who doesn't want the baby hears you describe the baby as a fetus

00:19:17.900 versus as a baby, how are they perceiving and conceiving of that?

00:19:23.000 So I can probably ask you the same question, Michael.

00:19:25.020 Why on your show and in these interviews do you insist on calling it a baby?

00:19:30.380 Is it because you understand the emotional pull that that has on your viewers?

00:19:34.560 So you insist on using that language because you understand it's emotional.

00:19:38.180 No, it's because I think it's ontologically precise in exactly the way you just described.

00:19:43.500 Because you say that the word baby is anthropomorphizing,

00:19:46.280 and you said that the human being inside you is a human being.

00:19:49.380 And so it's appropriate to use humanizing language for human beings.

00:19:54.300 Depending on the conversation that you are having,

00:19:56.880 because you have to be aware and compassionate towards the person that you are having that discussion.

00:20:01.660 Right, but I don't think it's compassionate to deceive people or to pretend that the human isn't a human.

00:20:05.720 I think that it's always disrespectful to lie to people.

00:20:09.280 Calling it a fetus isn't lying.

00:20:10.840 Calling it a fetus is medical criminality.

00:20:12.620 But it's less anthropomorphizing than baby, you would admit.

00:20:15.920 It's medically appropriate.

00:20:16.780 But would you admit that it's less humanizing than the word baby?

00:20:20.400 Less humanizing?

00:20:21.580 Yes.

00:20:21.880 No, because it's a human fetus.

00:20:24.600 It is.

00:20:25.280 So if the two words are synonymous, why is there guidance for one and then the other?

00:20:29.820 You keep saying it's because of the emotional state of the mother.

00:20:32.340 But okay, how is that perceived?

00:20:34.340 How do the emotions change hearing one word or the other?

00:20:38.160 Again, I think you understand this because you choose to say baby.

00:20:41.140 Why do you choose to say baby instead of fetus?

00:20:43.460 Because there's an emotional baggage.

00:20:45.500 No, because it's precise and true.

00:20:47.440 Because there's an emotional baggage that comes with baby.

00:20:50.420 And so if it is...

00:20:51.140 No, because it's plain language.

00:20:52.380 And so I generally try not to use sort of Latin or jargony terms for things that are plainly

00:20:58.440 understood.

00:20:59.080 And so that's why I prefer good Saxon words and good plain words.

00:21:02.460 And I don't use a 25-cent word when I can use a nickel word.

00:21:04.800 And as you just said, the guidance to use one word or the other based on whether the mother

00:21:13.600 wants to have an abortion or wants to give birth to her child clearly, though you don't seem willing

00:21:20.400 to admit it.

00:21:21.060 But clearly it's because the word fetus allows this pregnant mother in distress to abstract

00:21:26.800 away the humanity of her child and makes it easier for that woman to justify having an abortion.

00:21:32.060 Whereas if she were to call it a baby, it would be much, much harder for her to justify killing

00:21:36.700 the baby in the womb through abortion.

00:21:38.180 Right?

00:21:38.340 I think you would acknowledge that.

00:21:40.140 Yeah.

00:21:40.480 I can acknowledge that calling it a baby minimizes the options that the pregnant person feels

00:21:46.100 like they have.

00:21:46.980 And it can put unwanted pressure onto them.

00:21:49.300 And if they are not in a financial, mental, or physical state to carry through with that

00:21:54.340 pregnancy appropriately, calling it a baby makes them feel as if they have less options

00:21:59.000 than they truly do and should have.

00:22:01.200 So you mentioned those three states that you might be in where you want to kill your child.

00:22:07.080 A financial state, psychological state, and what was the other one?

00:22:11.080 Physical state.

00:22:12.880 So I understand the psychological state.

00:22:16.660 So let's put that to the side for a second.

00:22:18.060 We can get to it later.

00:22:19.480 What is the financial and physical state that would require one or greatly impel one to end

00:22:28.300 their baby's life in the womb through abortion?

00:22:31.660 Do you know how much it costs to carry through with pregnancy?

00:22:35.380 All too well.

00:22:36.240 Yeah.

00:22:36.460 Please, please.

00:22:37.100 It's not that.

00:22:37.500 It's actually not that expensive.

00:22:38.560 It's not cheap, but it's not that expensive.

00:22:39.540 To you, it's not that expensive.

00:22:41.460 But how expensive is it?

00:22:44.280 You just went through it with your wife, right?

00:22:46.300 You need to buy some prenatal vitamins.

00:22:47.780 You've got to go to some doctor visits.

00:22:49.160 So it's good to have health care.

00:22:50.280 Though we're very lucky in this country that the very poor have health care through Medicaid.

00:22:55.740 And the elderly, well, I guess they don't get pregnant all that much, but they could

00:22:58.800 have Medicare.

00:22:59.220 And people have health insurance through their employers.

00:23:03.180 And there is a public option in recent years.

00:23:06.240 And people can stay in their parents' health care until the age of 26.

00:23:08.800 So we have all sorts.

00:23:09.560 And you can go to an emergency room whenever you want.

00:23:11.020 So there are all sorts of health care options in the United States, some of which could be

00:23:14.260 improved.

00:23:14.660 And we could maybe get to that later.

00:23:15.720 But there are lots of health care options in the United States.

00:23:18.680 And then when one delivers in the hospital, there is a very large sticker price.

00:23:23.400 I mean, it'll say $30,000, $50,000.

00:23:25.560 But people don't really pay that price because insurance covers that.

00:23:29.820 And it's basically just a scam to enrich the insurance companies.

00:23:32.700 But that's, again, another problem with the U.S. health care system.

00:23:35.680 People aren't actually writing $50,000 checks to give birth to their children.

00:23:39.660 So yeah, I'm not saying it's cheap to eat well and be able to stay home on bed rest, perhaps,

00:23:45.340 if the doctor requires that.

00:23:47.580 Or to get prenatal vitamins or to raise a kid is very, very expensive.

00:23:50.700 I'm not doubting any of that.

00:23:52.940 But to just get to the point of delivering the baby and then perhaps giving the baby up

00:23:57.180 for adoption is not very expensive.

00:23:59.520 So actually, I'll correct you there.

00:24:01.360 So it costs about $18,000 on average to carry through with the pregnancy and labor.

00:24:05.980 I must have gotten a good deal then.

00:24:07.840 Yeah, you must have.

00:24:09.840 And if you have insurance, the out-of-pocket cost is around $2,000 to $3,000.

00:24:14.300 But what you might not understand either, which I work in the medical field in rural North

00:24:20.380 Carolina, so I'm very much familiar with people who they do not have insurance or cannot afford

00:24:26.620 insurance, whether through their employer or if they're contract workers.

00:24:30.260 It just depends.

00:24:31.540 And then the limit for someone to be qualified for Medicaid, there is a good amount of people

00:24:36.940 that fall in between there.

00:24:38.120 And I worked at a clinic that offered free care to people who were uninsured but don't

00:24:42.440 qualify for Medicaid.

00:24:43.560 And our clinic was busy all the time because there is a massive amount of people who fall

00:24:48.580 in that area.

00:24:49.840 There's a great organization called Good Counsel Homes, which I really love.

00:24:54.060 It's a pregnancy center up in Connecticut.

00:24:57.000 And they do fabulous work for people who, again, might fall through the cracks or might

00:25:01.560 be very distressed and for whom abortion might seem attractive because of that financial

00:25:07.180 reason.

00:25:07.700 But there are lots and lots of these organizations.

00:25:09.940 You mentioned the one that you work with, I mentioned the one that I've done some work

00:25:12.820 with, and there are many, many others around the country, which is good.

00:25:15.740 That's a fact to be celebrated.

00:25:17.080 But it seems to undermine the argument that financial reasons impel people to get abortions.

00:25:22.680 No, because as we discussed in the beginning, there's multiple reasons that someone might

00:25:27.020 not be able to carry through with a pregnancy, physically, psychologically, and financially.

00:25:30.820 And financially, the financial aspect of it cannot be belittled.

00:25:33.760 Let's be serious.

00:25:34.640 I think you're overstating it.

00:25:36.720 Right.

00:25:37.520 That's your opinion.

00:25:38.600 But for many-

00:25:39.380 Well, that's my opinion with experience.

00:25:40.600 I've got two kids under my belt hoping for more, you know.

00:25:43.220 So they've actually found that about 40% of Americans cannot afford an unexpected $400

00:25:49.100 cost, whether that be for their home, for their health, for whatever.

00:25:52.700 And so saying that it's not a big deal to inquire about, if you have insurance, about a $2,000

00:25:58.700 to $3,000 cost.

00:25:59.860 And if you don't have insurance, it can be about $18,000 on average.

00:26:02.660 When 40% of Americans can't afford an unexpected $400 cost, you are basically discounting the

00:26:10.820 experience of 40%-

00:26:12.240 Well, the thing about those statistics, though, is they're not quite right, because it's true

00:26:16.740 that many Americans don't have a lot of money, like cash, available.

00:26:21.340 But Americans tend to have a lot of stuff, because Americans carry a lot of debt.

00:26:24.980 So those numbers are also somewhat misleading, because what people do is go into debt.

00:26:29.500 Or if we're talking about something like an adoption, which is what we're really discussing

00:26:35.280 here, there are all sorts of wonderful adoption agencies and all sorts of wonderful programs

00:26:40.740 provided by the state and provided by private charity that cover these costs for all sorts

00:26:45.520 of people who are financially strapped but don't want to kill their children.

00:26:49.040 And so I just think it's an argument to evade the basic question.

00:26:55.880 I promise you, and I'll say it to the camera right now, if you are pregnant and you feel

00:27:00.920 that you can't afford to carry your child through pregnancy and you can't afford the $500 and

00:27:05.180 you can't find an organization that'll cover it, write to me.

00:27:07.880 I will write that check happily.

00:27:09.200 And it's not just me.

00:27:10.700 Plenty of pro-life people around the country would do it.

00:27:12.800 That's why they do it.

00:27:13.380 That's why they give to these organizations.

00:27:14.960 Do you really believe $500 to $2,000 is that delta that people may or may not be able

00:27:23.540 to afford is a strong justification for killing 850,000 human beings every year?

00:27:29.060 So again, saying the term killing 800,000 human beings is essentially, no, that is using

00:27:35.020 manipulative and emotional language intentionally, Michael.

00:27:37.420 You said that the fetus is a human being.

00:27:39.400 That wasn't my language.

00:27:40.460 That's your language.

00:27:41.200 Okay.

00:27:41.380 But killing a human being is not the same as aborting a fetus.

00:27:44.960 But you can use the manipulative and emotional language if you'd like.

00:27:48.040 Bronte, I'm only using your language because you said that it's alive and it's a human being.

00:27:52.640 And so what do you call it when you end a life?

00:27:56.700 It's just killing.

00:27:57.420 That's just the precise way to describe it.

00:28:00.100 And what do you call a human being is a human being.

00:28:03.500 So I said you're killing a human being.

00:28:05.100 That's your language.

00:28:06.360 If that's how you'd like to describe it, that's fine.

00:28:08.440 That's how you describe it.

00:28:09.940 Well, since we've talked about the financial aspects of abortion and pregnancy, why don't we

00:28:14.420 talk about the physical and mental aspects of it?

00:28:16.720 Because that is really the heart of the bodily autonomy argument.

00:28:20.980 Sure.

00:28:21.480 Sure.

00:28:21.800 So the physical issue.

00:28:25.000 Mm-hmm.

00:28:27.480 I don't need to recite these statistics for you.

00:28:30.380 The percentage of women who get abortions because the baby poses a direct threat to their lives.

00:28:36.580 Very small number.

00:28:38.060 And by...

00:28:38.560 Far less than 1%.

00:28:39.480 By direct threat to their lives, you mean they're going to lose their life?

00:28:42.800 Yeah.

00:28:43.240 Okay.

00:28:43.540 Well, Michael, do you know what the leading cause of death for pregnant people is?

00:28:47.200 Pregnant people?

00:28:48.100 Mm-hmm.

00:28:50.020 Mothers?

00:28:51.080 Women?

00:28:51.320 If you'd like to call them mothers.

00:28:52.600 Not all of them are mothers, but if you'd like to call them that.

00:28:55.060 What are they if they're not mothers?

00:28:56.700 They're pregnant people.

00:28:58.620 What people other than mothers are pregnant?

00:29:01.260 Does it bother you to use inclusive language?

00:29:03.620 It's just interesting because...

00:29:04.560 I prefer to use precise language.

00:29:06.240 It's interesting because you come into this conversation, you know, trying to hold this

00:29:09.860 moral superiority, but then when I...

00:29:11.600 I try to be moral when I can, but I...

00:29:13.780 Right.

00:29:14.120 But when I use inclusive language, which it only takes a couple extra syllables to use inclusive

00:29:18.420 language.

00:29:18.820 To include who?

00:29:19.320 And it seems to include people who don't, you know, identify as women but can become

00:29:23.820 pregnant.

00:29:24.120 So, like a person who's born a woman and then identifies as a man and is pregnant.

00:29:32.420 Yeah.

00:29:32.940 So you're telling me that in order to be a moral person, I need to accept the idea that

00:29:38.100 a man, someone who is born a man and looks like a man, can really become a woman.

00:29:43.160 That's a prerequisite of my being a moral person.

00:29:46.900 I mean, yes.

00:29:47.880 To me, it is because if you are trying to deny someone of their identity and deny what

00:29:53.420 their life experience is, then that doesn't seem like a moral stance to me.

00:29:57.220 I want to be accepting and I want to respect people's life experiences and respect the way

00:30:02.620 that they want to identify and respect the way that they want to present themselves to

00:30:06.280 the world.

00:30:06.740 Bronte, I would like to identify, I do identify actually, as the correct person on this issue

00:30:14.080 of abortion.

00:30:14.980 I identify as being correct and more correct than you on this issue.

00:30:20.340 And I would just ask that you accept and affirm my identity.

00:30:25.840 Do you?

00:30:26.420 Well, you are not a medical professional and abortion and pregnancy is a medical concern.

00:30:30.520 That's not your identity.

00:30:31.580 That is my identity.

00:30:32.120 I promise you that's my identity.

00:30:33.860 I promise you that's my identity.

00:30:34.580 That's very different from your sexual and gender identity.

00:30:37.040 How so?

00:30:38.100 What I'm talking here involves the mind.

00:30:40.880 I mean, don't you think, I'm not just talking about my gonads or something like that.

00:30:44.840 I'm talking about, I'm not just talking about my sexual appetites or desires.

00:30:47.800 I'm talking about my mind, my capacity for reason, my judgment here.

00:30:52.800 And so you're saying you don't respect that identity, but you do respect the identity of

00:30:57.140 a man who believes himself to be a woman.

00:30:59.980 I'm saying that you are someone without medical training and pregnancy is a medical condition

00:31:04.460 and abortion is a medical procedure.

00:31:05.840 And so we need to abide by the informed and knowledgeable opinions of medical experts.

00:31:12.700 Again, you are entitled to your opinion, but you are not an informed and knowledgeable

00:31:17.900 medical expert.

00:31:18.960 So your opinion is not equal and should not override the opinions of medical experts on

00:31:24.900 this issue.

00:31:25.580 And they have stated unequivocally that abortion access is essential to comprehensive, evidence-based

00:31:32.300 health care.

00:31:32.740 Bronte, do you, are you a trained epistemologist?

00:31:36.260 No.

00:31:36.840 You haven't studied epistemology?

00:31:38.380 No.

00:31:39.120 And yet you are making claims about knowledge and how knowledge can be ascertained and expressed,

00:31:46.340 but you're not trained in that.

00:31:48.020 So it seems to me if I'm not allowed to have opinions about abortion because I'm not a trained

00:31:52.220 medical professional, you surely shouldn't be permitted to have opinions about how people

00:31:56.380 hold opinions if you're not trained in the very study of knowledge, epistemology.

00:32:00.000 I'm sorry.

00:32:01.020 If you have a heart condition, who do you go to?

00:32:03.200 Do you go to your deli worker or do you go to a cardiologist?

00:32:07.440 But if you have a philosophical question, who do you go to?

00:32:10.540 This isn't a philosophical question.

00:32:11.980 This is a question about medical access.

00:32:14.580 This is a question about medical access.

00:32:16.400 No.

00:32:16.900 Well, ultimately, what we're talking about is human life, right?

00:32:21.380 I mean, that's the reason it's a controversial issue.

00:32:23.640 Well, yes, but also pregnant people are living human lives.

00:32:29.060 So we are talking about their life, and their life takes precedent when it comes to medical

00:32:33.920 care.

00:32:34.400 Right, but that's—now you've moved out of the realm of the natural sciences.

00:32:38.780 Now you're into the realm of the philosophical science.

00:32:40.560 No, no.

00:32:41.240 This is a fundamental principle of medical ethics.

00:32:44.740 This is a fundamental principle of medical ethics.

00:32:47.600 Right, which is a species of ethics broadly.

00:32:50.500 But you just said you're not a trained ethicist.

00:32:52.600 You're not—well, you said you're not a trained epistemologist.

00:32:54.340 Maybe you're a trained ethicist, are you?

00:32:55.740 I'm trained in medicine, and we've had to take multiple courses in medical ethics.

00:32:59.980 I have my master's in medical science.

00:33:01.380 I'm a third-year medical student.

00:33:03.020 Medical science, but not ethics or philosophy.

00:33:04.400 We have to take—I don't know if you know this, but when you are going through medical

00:33:07.500 training, you are trained in ethics, because otherwise doctors—

00:33:10.260 I should hope so.

00:33:10.900 No, I should hope—I mean, I should hope that anybody who has any education at all would have

00:33:14.840 some training in ethics.

00:33:15.880 Yeah, that's true.

00:33:16.660 Exactly.

00:33:16.960 But you're—would you call yourself an expert in ethics and—

00:33:20.760 I would call myself knowledgeable, and also to be clear—

00:33:22.860 Well, yeah, I would call myself knowledgeable.

00:33:24.080 Right, but to be clear, as I said at the beginning of this discussion, we're not sitting here just

00:33:28.400 having a discussion about our differences in opinion.

00:33:30.980 I am here to educate you and your viewers on the guidelines and the published statements

00:33:36.920 of our country's leading medical experts, specifically the—

00:33:40.200 Not even just the unpublished ones, but the published ones.

00:33:42.140 But the published ones, the public published opinions of the American College of Obstetricians

00:33:46.720 and Gynecologists, who is our country's leading experts when it comes to the health and well-being

00:33:50.380 of pregnant people.

00:33:51.480 And they say, unequivocally—and you can look, there's also publications from Harvard, from

00:33:57.960 Colorado University, from Yale.

00:34:00.140 Name it.

00:34:01.040 Our country's—

00:34:02.040 Our country's leading minds—our country's leading minds state that abortion access is

00:34:07.840 essential.

00:34:08.420 So you are entitled to your opinion, but it is not equal to the opinion of people who train

00:34:13.480 their entire lives to understand this subject deeply.

00:34:16.520 Well, if we're citing experts and the leading authorities, I would be remiss if I didn't cite

00:34:22.420 the President's Council on Bioethical Inquiry, which in the middle of the 2000s assembled

00:34:28.020 the nation's leading experts on bioethical questions from all of the top schools with all of the

00:34:32.860 fanciest degrees.

00:34:33.820 And they concluded that abortion is bioethically unacceptable.

00:34:37.540 It's immoral.

00:34:38.180 It's wrong.

00:34:38.760 You can't do it.

00:34:39.660 So I'm not quite sure why I'm supposed to trust the trade organization of American obstetricians

00:34:45.540 over the bioethicists, who certainly have far more expertise in this realm of knowledge

00:34:52.780 than the obstetricians, who might be very good at delivering babies, but might not be

00:34:56.700 quite as good at understanding matters of ethics and morality.

00:35:00.940 So obstetricians and gynecologists specialize in the health and well-being of pregnant people,

00:35:06.220 and pregnancy affects the health and well-being of pregnant people.

00:35:09.540 But it also affects the babies.

00:35:11.160 Correct.

00:35:11.540 But when it comes to looking at a pregnant person, their health, when it comes to a medical

00:35:18.720 condition that it is between the life of the pregnant person and ending the pregnancy,

00:35:23.800 the life of the pregnant person takes precedent unless otherwise specified by the pregnant person,

00:35:29.260 because consent is everything.

00:35:31.520 Oh, so you're saying that the life of the mother takes precedent unless the mother says no.

00:35:38.940 Now, again, the only reason I keep bringing up this matter of bioethics is that statement

00:35:46.660 that you're making is not a statement that pertains to natural science.

00:35:50.400 It's in the way that I would say, you know, if you want to get a baby out, you use this clamp.

00:35:54.200 Or, you know, if you want to make an incision into an abdomen, you use this sort of knife

00:35:57.400 or this instrument.

00:35:58.100 When you say so-and-so's life takes precedence over someone else's life, that is a philosophical

00:36:05.860 statement and an ethical statement, which is different than a statement about, you know,

00:36:09.940 natural science.

00:36:10.860 You know, this glass is made up of certain chemicals or whatever.

00:36:14.060 So that's why I think you're conflating those two realms here, and you're trying to trade

00:36:18.840 expertise from one realm in the natural sciences into expertise in another realm, which would

00:36:23.300 be philosophy and ethics.

00:36:24.480 And I'm all for trying to bring these things together in a, you know, university-style way.

00:36:29.900 You know, you bring knowledge together because everything affects everything else.

00:36:33.340 But I think it's just disingenuous to claim then that obstetricians are the be-all and end-all

00:36:37.720 authorities on every single matter.

00:36:40.420 It's also worth pointing out these threats to the life of the mother are, threats to her

00:36:46.580 actual life are exceptionally rare.

00:36:49.160 I mean, far less than 1% of people who have abortions do so because of a threat to the life of the

00:36:53.740 mother.

00:36:54.160 There is no medical condition for which the treatment is abortion.

00:36:58.280 That's actually incorrect.

00:36:59.700 But also, as I asked you before, do you know the leading cause of death for pregnant people?

00:37:04.980 I assume it's some comorbidity of, you know, I don't know, obesity or heart disease or something

00:37:13.120 involving preeclampsia.

00:37:14.220 I don't know.

00:37:14.460 It's actually homicide.

00:37:15.860 Homicide is the number one cause of death for pregnant people.

00:37:18.380 The number one cause of death for babies and abortion, too.

00:37:20.000 It is.

00:37:21.580 But we are talking about living, breathing people who are people's daughters, sisters,

00:37:27.220 mothers.

00:37:27.920 Did you know 59% of people who get abortions already have children?

00:37:32.300 And so we're talking about them prioritizing their needs and their life and you trying

00:37:37.760 to limit their ability to care for their already existing children.

00:37:41.900 And the number one cause of death for pregnant people, you do.

00:37:44.960 Because, you know, being able to afford medical care for pregnancy and labor takes away from

00:37:51.420 their ability to care for their already existing children.

00:37:53.700 In a very small way.

00:37:54.540 It costs a lot of money to raise children.

00:37:56.560 So if we're talking about $500 here or there, which, again, I think we already pointed out

00:38:00.900 can be taken care of through any number of organizations, through the state and through

00:38:04.540 private charity.

00:38:05.180 But if, you know, we're talking about the difference of $500 here, the cost of raising

00:38:09.960 a child to the age of 18 is enormous.

00:38:12.320 It's hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars.

00:38:14.100 Correct.

00:38:14.420 And so if you won't be able to raise your children because of a $500 cost, then you're

00:38:20.140 not going to raise your children anyway.

00:38:22.140 Right?

00:38:22.440 You can't afford to raise them anyway.

00:38:23.520 Because the total cost is just greater.

00:38:25.620 But a $500 cost is the average cost of an abortion.

00:38:29.140 The average cost of pregnancy and labor is $18,000 without insurance, about $3,000 with

00:38:34.700 insurance.

00:38:35.320 And so I don't, you know, again, I see that you see yourself as a compassionate and moral

00:38:39.980 person.

00:38:40.640 But in order for...

00:38:41.240 I strive to be.

00:38:41.820 I don't know that I see myself that way, but I certainly strive to be.

00:38:44.000 It doesn't seem so when you try to consistently minimize these hardships that people are encountering

00:38:49.660 and you say it's not that much, it's not that big of a deal.

00:38:51.360 No, I just think that it is better for a mother to endure the discomfort and

00:38:59.020 cost of pregnancy than it is for her to murder her child is really what I think.

00:39:03.980 That's your opinion.

00:39:05.160 But it's also not your right to decide what the amount of risk someone should take, what

00:39:12.140 amount of harm they should endure without their consent.

00:39:14.560 Why is that not my right?

00:39:16.120 Why is it not your right to decide what sort of risk that I should take over my body?

00:39:21.300 Yeah.

00:39:22.080 Why is that not my right?

00:39:23.340 Because it is my body and I get to decide what kind of health risks that I accept.

00:39:27.480 But we've already established that, especially in a self-governing republic, we pass all

00:39:32.900 sorts of laws that restrict people's bodily autonomy, like drug laws.

00:39:36.040 So why is it my right to pass a law about you using heroin, but not my right to pass

00:39:44.460 a law that prevents you from murdering your child?

00:39:46.260 For that matter, we live in a self-governing republic.

00:39:48.700 We have laws against murder that limits what people can do with their own bodies to somebody

00:39:53.620 else in exactly the same way that a law against abortion would limit what you can do with your

00:39:58.240 own body to another human being.

00:40:00.220 Can you tell me a scenario where you can force someone to use their body to save the life

00:40:05.880 of another individual?

00:40:07.220 Of a situation other than motherhood?

00:40:10.020 Mm-hmm.

00:40:10.780 No.

00:40:11.240 No, I think motherhood is unique.

00:40:12.960 Okay.

00:40:13.440 So you can't describe any other scenario where one human can be forced against their will

00:40:20.200 to use their body to save the life of another person.

00:40:23.640 Well, I don't know.

00:40:24.320 I mean, I wouldn't be opposed to a law that says, you know, if you see a little kid drowning

00:40:29.800 in a pool, you have an obligation to jump in the pool and pull the kid out.

00:40:33.700 I mean, I think that would be perfectly reasonable.

00:40:35.300 That's not the same thing as using your internal organs and bodily resources.

00:40:38.460 Oh, well, that's different.

00:40:39.360 Yeah, your internal organs, that would be unique to motherhood, yeah.

00:40:41.880 Right.

00:40:42.240 And so the fact that there is no other scenario where you can force a living person to use

00:40:48.480 their body to save the life of another person means that you are trying to grant fetuses

00:40:52.680 rights that no other person on this path has.

00:40:55.680 No, I think you're right to describe motherhood as a singular phenomenon.

00:40:59.360 Yeah, it is unique.

00:41:00.420 And motherhood is something that half of the population can possibly experience.

00:41:06.180 And the fact that there is half the population that will never have the possibility of experiencing

00:41:10.780 that makes...

00:41:11.380 It's a great pity for us.

00:41:13.600 Makes it so that when you are pushing for abortion bans, it is essentially a sexist issue

00:41:19.440 and you are creating a...

00:41:21.240 Bronte, you know that the pro-life movement is mostly women.

00:41:23.940 And you know that women are split 50-50 on the issue.

00:41:25.760 Also, it's not pro-life.

00:41:27.140 It is anti-choice because if you actually...

00:41:28.860 Whatever language you want to use.

00:41:29.800 The movement against abortion is mostly women and women are split basically 50-50 in America

00:41:36.040 on the issue.

00:41:36.980 So to call it sexist or misogynist or whatever seems a little bit silly.

00:41:40.620 You're trying...

00:41:41.280 It would seem to me that you are describing this as, you know, the men forcing this on

00:41:45.260 the women.

00:41:45.720 But that just...

00:41:46.580 If you look at the makeup of the movement against abortion, I call it the pro-life movement,

00:41:51.000 and you look at the public opinion on abortion among women, it's mostly women.

00:41:56.460 So the Pew Research Center actually did surveys and found that 61% of Americans feel that abortion

00:42:02.740 should be accessible in all or most cases.

00:42:05.120 29% of Americans found that it should be accessible in cases of rape, incest, or to protect the

00:42:11.900 life of the mother.

00:42:12.900 And 9% of Americans thought that...

00:42:14.700 Hold on, those numbers don't seem to...

00:42:16.380 You're saying 61% of Americans say it should be available in all cases.

00:42:21.120 And 29% say it should be available for victims of rape.

00:42:26.000 Rape, incest, or for the life of the mother.

00:42:28.220 But why is that number small?

00:42:30.160 I would imagine that the number would say, well, certainly women who, you know, face an

00:42:34.980 existential risk from pregnancy, they should be able to have abortion.

00:42:38.060 Wouldn't you expect that number to be higher?

00:42:39.900 You would expect it.

00:42:41.020 But I think shows like yours...

00:42:42.100 I just wonder if you were misreading the statistics, because that doesn't seem credible to me.

00:42:45.660 No, you can look it up.

00:42:46.600 It's on the Pew Research...

00:42:47.540 It's by the Pew Research Center.

00:42:48.860 And they found that 20...

00:42:49.600 It's strange.

00:42:49.820 Why would the number go down for a more dire situation?

00:42:52.760 No, 29% of Americans think that it should only be accessible.

00:42:56.380 Oh, understood.

00:42:57.400 Only be accessible in those scenarios.

00:42:59.500 Got it.

00:42:59.740 And so I just want to make it clear that 29% of Americans think that it should only be

00:43:04.300 accessible for in cases of rape, incest, or the risk of life of the mother.

00:43:08.980 And so you are, and I understand that that might not even be the category that you find

00:43:13.420 yourself in, and only 9% of Americans believe that it should never be legal.

00:43:17.740 And so I just want to make it clear that you are in the minority on this issue, and your

00:43:22.880 viewers might be as well.

00:43:23.840 The problem with the statistics, though, Bronte, is that, I mean, I'll just take your

00:43:27.700 word for it on the Pew numbers, but you can look at any number of polls on this issue

00:43:30.820 from Pew to Gallup to Harvard-Harris to all of these other people.

00:43:34.880 And so I can find one poll.

00:43:36.280 I think it was Gallup, but I forget which one it was, that shows that only 6% of Americans

00:43:39.700 believe that abortion should be legal in all circumstances.

00:43:43.560 94% of Americans believe that there should be some restrictions on abortion.

00:43:46.900 And when you get even more granular on it, you look at the way that the questions are

00:43:50.400 phrased, the numbers become even more malleable.

00:43:54.040 So, you know, there are lies, damned lies, and statistics.

00:43:57.260 I think just if you look at the way that people vote, you look at the way that people express

00:44:04.340 their views through their elected representatives on questions of abortion, it is roughly split.

00:44:09.260 That's why it's been a contentious issue for a very long time.

00:44:12.540 And so, you know, you can, I suppose you can have your statistics from your credible research

00:44:18.120 institute, and I guess I'll have mine.

00:44:20.060 Yeah, you know, it's really easy to just discount statistics when you disagree with that.

00:44:23.320 No, but you're discounting my statistics.

00:44:24.960 Well, you didn't give me a source.

00:44:26.260 You didn't give me anything like that.

00:44:26.760 I did.

00:44:26.880 But I think it's Gallup, but I could be wrong on that.

00:44:28.840 My resources are actually, they're also from Gallup.

00:44:31.240 Pew and Gallup, they published very similar numbers.

00:44:35.700 Oh, interesting.

00:44:36.300 Well, I suppose I'll just have to go look it up.

00:44:38.680 Yeah, please do.

00:44:39.500 I encourage your viewers to as well, because I really just want to reiterate that, you

00:44:43.420 know, you feel like this is a 50-50.

00:44:45.700 America is really split, when really we are not.

00:44:49.120 61% of Americans feel that abortion should be accessible in all or most cases.

00:44:53.860 That is the majority of Americans.

00:44:56.420 But Bronte, the thing is, and again, by my statistics, you know, that those numbers are

00:45:02.420 very different, and by the statistics at the pro-lifers side.

00:45:05.900 But even if that were the case, let's say it's 61%, okay, 61% are pro-abortion, 60% are

00:45:11.460 pro-abortion, 40% are anti-abortion.

00:45:15.400 So what?

00:45:17.140 It's still, you know, it's still roughly split, though, by your numbers, that's obviously

00:45:20.900 much more favorable to the pro-abortion side.

00:45:22.740 But so what?

00:45:24.420 I mean, that doesn't, you know, the mob of people killed Socrates.

00:45:29.220 The mob of people chose Barabbas.

00:45:30.780 Are we really saying that the measure of right and wrong is some conveniently selected public

00:45:37.660 opinion poll?

00:45:38.640 Well, if you would like another statistic, 95-

00:45:41.140 I don't want to.

00:45:41.620 Well, I'll give it to you anyways.

00:45:42.900 But you're more than welcome to give it to me.

00:45:43.720 You're welcome.

00:45:44.400 95% of OBGYNs say that they would assist a patient in receiving an abortion regardless

00:45:50.540 of their personal feelings about it.

00:45:52.900 So where I stand...

00:45:54.020 That's crazy.

00:45:54.520 Where I stand...

00:45:54.840 So an OBGYN could think that what he or she is doing is actually murdering a baby, and

00:46:00.340 then that person would do it anyway?

00:46:03.320 Because...

00:46:03.720 Well, I certainly don't trust that person's judgment.

00:46:06.120 Goodness gracious.

00:46:06.600 What a crazy idea.

00:46:07.660 And that's why I bring it up.

00:46:09.460 Because when we look at the people in our society who are trained to care for the health

00:46:15.340 and well-being of pregnant people, even they understand, 95% of them understand that their

00:46:22.580 personal feelings about this matter cannot override and should not override a patient's

00:46:28.760 ability to access comprehensive medical care.

00:46:30.980 So why do they have those personal feelings at all?

00:46:33.500 Because your opinion is about your body and your life alone.

00:46:37.700 And as I said...

00:46:37.720 No, well, we've established we can have opinions about all sorts of things that aren't

00:46:40.520 our own body.

00:46:41.000 Right.

00:46:41.380 Exactly.

00:46:42.200 But as I said before, the leading cause of death for pregnant people is homicide.

00:46:46.060 And I bring that up because you cannot pretend like you understand the situations that people

00:46:51.080 find themselves in.

00:46:52.440 People's lives...

00:46:53.380 So what you're telling me is that if a woman is threatened with murder by her boyfriend

00:46:59.780 because the boyfriend doesn't want her to be pregnant or something like that, that

00:47:05.540 is why we need to basically give those women the option to kill their baby because their

00:47:13.500 psychopath boyfriends might murder them if they don't murder their own child.

00:47:17.020 That's what you're telling me the solution is to these murderous boyfriends that you're

00:47:20.680 describing?

00:47:21.540 Are you minimizing the threat to someone's life?

00:47:24.480 No, I just think that I don't think the solution to a boyfriend threatening to kill a girlfriend

00:47:29.220 if she doesn't kill her own child is to encourage the girlfriend to kill her own child.

00:47:32.980 We're not encouraging her.

00:47:34.100 Of course you are.

00:47:34.240 We are giving her the access to that option.

00:47:37.160 Wouldn't it be better to send in the civil authority to arrest the murderous boyfriend

00:47:41.240 and protect the mother and the child?

00:47:43.300 In a perfect world, yes.

00:47:44.580 But we don't live in that world, Michael.

00:47:45.680 What if the mother who is afraid of being murdered by her boyfriend wants to keep her child, but

00:47:50.180 she's afraid that she's going to get murdered so she feels that it'll just be sort of safer

00:47:55.280 for her to go kill the child even if this, there was a video of this that just went viral recently

00:47:59.800 of a clearly abusive boyfriend who was trying to throw his pregnant girlfriend into a car

00:48:04.040 to go get an abortion.

00:48:05.380 It went viral, I think, about six months or so ago.

00:48:07.900 And the woman clearly doesn't want to get the abortion and the boyfriend really wants her

00:48:12.060 to.

00:48:12.160 It's the exact situation that you're describing.

00:48:13.900 You think that the solution to that is to make it easier for the woman to get the abortion?

00:48:20.320 To make it easier to give the murderous boyfriend what he wants?

00:48:23.120 What I am saying, well, no, because this entire thing is about consent.

00:48:26.820 It's about the...

00:48:27.540 I don't think it's about consent.

00:48:29.400 You don't seem to respect consent.

00:48:31.120 No, I think consent is important.

00:48:31.480 Which seems to be the heart of the issue.

00:48:33.060 Well, you think it's the heart of the issue.

00:48:34.320 I think the baby's heart is the heart of the issue.

00:48:36.500 I think the baby's life is the heart of the issue.

00:48:38.120 And you think...

00:48:38.620 Consent plays a role in moral judgments, but it's not the only criterion that we consider

00:48:42.960 when we come to moral decisions.

00:48:44.960 So can I ask you, why do you find it so easy to have compassion for a fetus or a baby that

00:48:52.720 is non-autonomous and has absolutely no awareness of its own existence, but you find it so difficult

00:48:59.700 to expand that compassion towards pregnant people?

00:49:03.740 Well, no.

00:49:04.700 I don't think it's good for pregnant people, also known as mothers, to kill their children.

00:49:09.780 I don't think it's good for them.

00:49:10.520 I don't think it's good for the children.

00:49:12.100 I also would have to push back on your argument that babies in the womb do not have any awareness.

00:49:19.740 They do have some awareness, and they do react to their environments.

00:49:23.760 They can kick, and they can move, and they can...

00:49:25.720 When the mother eats something that's maybe a little spicy, the baby will actually get

00:49:28.860 hiccups and things like that.

00:49:30.320 And when you describe, I don't know, self-awareness, I mean, yeah, it's true the baby in the womb does

00:49:36.280 not have consciousness, you know, is it not going to discourse on, you know, Aristotle

00:49:41.400 or something.

00:49:42.200 But a six-month-old baby isn't really conscious either, right?

00:49:45.800 Certainly a newborn baby has no more consciousness than the baby in the womb does.

00:49:49.520 They're conscious, just not aware.

00:49:51.240 But also...

00:49:51.740 No, no.

00:49:52.680 I mean, what do you mean by consciousness?

00:49:53.800 First of all, are you aware when...

00:49:57.640 We can talk about different numbers, but are you aware of the time in which 80% of abortions

00:50:03.680 take place, like the state of gestation?

00:50:06.020 Yeah, it's relatively early, first trimester.

00:50:08.200 Okay, do you know the week, perhaps?

00:50:09.660 I don't know.

00:50:10.560 Okay, so 80% of abortions occur before week nine, and, you know, you say that their babies

00:50:15.600 are kicking and reacting.

00:50:16.880 Yeah, yeah.

00:50:17.160 Are you aware of what a nine-week-old fetus looks like?

00:50:20.740 Oh, yes, very well.

00:50:21.520 Yes?

00:50:21.740 Can you describe it to me?

00:50:22.640 Yeah, yeah.

00:50:23.260 Well, by...

00:50:24.160 Really, I suppose, by the 10th week.

00:50:26.100 That's, you know, especially when you go in and you have your babies, you go in for an

00:50:30.600 eight-week appointment.

00:50:31.420 By the eight-week appointment, they can tell you the sex of your baby, which is amazing.

00:50:34.600 That's how well-formed they are already.

00:50:36.720 By the 10-week appointment, they've got basically all of their features formed in a very rudimentary

00:50:42.140 way, but they're already quite formed, and you can look, and they no longer look like

00:50:45.900 a little tadpole entirely.

00:50:47.220 They look much more like a human being.

00:50:48.440 Oh, really?

00:50:48.800 They've got their little fingers already and their little toes.

00:50:51.440 Yeah, the tail's almost gone.

00:50:52.640 I actually have pictures for you.

00:50:54.160 Right.

00:50:54.360 So, this is nine weeks.

00:51:00.340 This is what a nine-week fetus looks like.

00:51:02.400 Well, let me see.

00:51:03.440 I would like to, if you want to look at that, and you would like to look at that, you can

00:51:07.780 look at this.

00:51:08.300 Oh, great.

00:51:09.300 Yeah, yeah.

00:51:09.820 And I know that you...

00:51:11.100 It's not like any ultrasound I've ever looked at, though.

00:51:12.860 Yeah, I know.

00:51:13.400 That's why I brought them, because when it comes...

00:51:15.200 But this isn't an ultrasound.

00:51:16.460 No.

00:51:16.700 This is a nine-week fetus in a Petri dish.

00:51:18.740 In a Petri dish?

00:51:19.560 Mm-hmm.

00:51:19.760 Why do you have the thing in the Petri dish?

00:51:22.060 To discount misinformation that is spread about this issue, just like you do.

00:51:27.460 How did the baby get into the Petri dish?

00:51:29.920 It's...

00:51:30.200 I believe these are aborted.

00:51:32.800 And so this...

00:51:33.380 So you're saying that a baby that has been sucked out and dismembered looks a little

00:51:37.960 bit different.

00:51:38.360 They aren't dismembered, because there isn't enough of them to be...

00:51:42.220 How are they aborted?

00:51:42.960 The fetus is barely recognizable to the naked eye at nine weeks.

00:51:47.760 How is that baby aborted?

00:51:49.600 So at nine weeks, it's usually just a pill that expels the fetus.

00:51:52.880 What does the pill...

00:51:54.220 All the pill does is expel the baby.

00:51:55.720 Yeah, it basically makes the uterine lining not able to...

00:51:59.900 Or the fetus not able to adhere to the uterine lining, and it sheds it.

00:52:04.100 It can...

00:52:04.540 It's...

00:52:04.740 There's various mechanisms.

00:52:06.040 So the...

00:52:06.720 There are...

00:52:07.080 What are some of the other mechanisms?

00:52:08.900 Well, it depends on the week of gestation.

00:52:11.020 Let's say around 10 weeks we're talking about.

00:52:13.060 So I think after 10 weeks is they...

00:52:15.620 What they will do is it's no longer going to be a pill.

00:52:18.060 They essentially inject like saline solution, and they inject, and it removes it from the uterine

00:52:24.120 lining.

00:52:25.080 So it's basically a poison.

00:52:28.440 No.

00:52:28.740 No, it's flushing.

00:52:30.540 It's cleaning out the uterus.

00:52:32.080 But it...

00:52:32.400 But it's...

00:52:33.180 Yeah, I'm not saying it's cyanide or something like that, but it's...

00:52:36.920 You're injecting a chemical into the uterus.

00:52:40.240 Usually like saline solution.

00:52:41.940 Right.

00:52:42.320 But I could...

00:52:42.780 If I put saline solution on a slug, it'll shrivel up and die.

00:52:45.680 Yeah.

00:52:45.840 Are you a slug?

00:52:47.960 No, but...

00:52:48.280 Do humans react the same way to saline solution as slugs do?

00:52:51.640 Yes, little babies do.

00:52:52.920 No, it just disconnects it.

00:52:53.580 That's why you're using it to kill...

00:52:55.220 No, so this...

00:52:56.360 To dissolve the connection between the mother...

00:52:57.740 Between the baby and the placenta and the mother, and to flush out the poor little baby.

00:53:02.080 So this is why I think it's really ghastly and disingenuous of you to...

00:53:05.460 No, I'm bringing this because you consistently want to anthropomorphize this issue.

00:53:11.100 You described the baby as anthropomorphic.

00:53:12.960 You described the baby as a human.

00:53:15.980 You did.

00:53:16.560 You said it's a human being.

00:53:17.720 It is a human being.

00:53:18.880 But you know, you're accusing me of anthropomorphizing a human being.

00:53:21.940 This is a nine-week-old fetus.

00:53:23.740 This is a nine-week-old fetus.

00:53:25.240 And I bring this to try to address misinformation about...

00:53:29.580 Can I...

00:53:29.960 If you would please allow me to finish.

00:53:30.980 Sure, it's just really ghastly to show a picture of a person who's been killed.

00:53:34.860 And I apologize for that.

00:53:36.420 But I do this...

00:53:37.260 Your apology implies that you'll correct your behavior.

00:53:39.580 No.

00:53:39.780 That you're not doing that.

00:53:40.320 Because people such as yourself and there are different, multiple different websites that like to share propaganda about this issue.

00:53:49.360 And I am here to try to present a medically accurate representation of this issue.

00:53:55.520 Of what a murder victim looks like.

00:53:56.520 Of what this issue is.

00:53:58.000 And when you try to act as though it is murder, I want your audience to truly, truly understand what we are talking about.

00:54:08.740 Because I am not saying that a woman with a desired pregnancy shouldn't feel connected to her fetus.

00:54:15.860 That's not what I'm saying.

00:54:17.140 I am saying when we are having...

00:54:19.720 When we have a person with an unwanted pregnancy, you cannot act as though their choice to, you know, decide what is best for their life and their body is murder.

00:54:35.100 When in reality, it is a living person standing in front of you who's a living, breathing person with dreams and aspirations who is a mother, sister, you know, daughter.

00:54:46.840 Was a mother.

00:54:47.440 No, 59% of people who get abortions are mothers with existing children.

00:54:52.380 And so I just want you...

00:54:53.380 Well, all of them have existing children.

00:54:54.720 They all do.

00:54:57.600 I mean, Bronte, what's so confusing about this to me, and what's very silly, I think, about showing pictures of aborted babies, is it would be as though if you were to ask me to show you a picture of, you know, what does an Italian guy in New York look like?

00:55:14.320 Okay, and I showed you a picture of a young 25-year-old Italian guy splayed out on the street, chopped up, bleeding dead, versus, you know, an Italian boy, you know, eating a bowl of spaghetti or something like that.

00:55:31.240 Those two pictures would look very, very different.

00:55:32.940 And so the trick, the deception that you've engaged in, is you've taken a baby who has been killed for abortion and been separated from his mother and splayed out and squeezed out and looks unrecognizable.

00:55:45.380 And you're pretending that...

00:55:46.940 And what you're pretending is that that cadaver is what a baby who has not been killed by his mother, who is still in the womb and who is growing and who is exhibiting all the signs of life and who is moving and who has little fingernails, even in a small...

00:56:00.720 No, this was expelled.

00:56:02.820 It was not dismembered.

00:56:03.980 If you look at this, primarily most of the tissue here is the gestational sac because the beginnings of pregnancy, the gestational sac and the placenta are some of the first things created because that is what attaches to the uterine lining and provides the fetus with resources and expels its waste.

00:56:20.280 That is primarily in the first few weeks of pregnancy.

00:56:23.380 Those are the tissue contents that are created before the fetus is really developed.

00:56:28.580 And a nine-week-old fetus, like I have here, the fetus itself is hardly distinguishable to the human eye.

00:56:36.420 Because it's so small.

00:56:37.180 Because it's so small.

00:56:38.360 Yeah, right.

00:56:38.580 And so that is why I bring it up.

00:56:40.420 Because...

00:56:40.740 So, hold on.

00:56:41.600 Then the point...

00:56:42.200 Because when you present this, you say, well, actually, this mostly isn't the fetus.

00:56:46.120 This mostly is all this other stuff.

00:56:47.780 Mm-hmm.

00:56:48.320 Okay.

00:56:49.120 But then you're not showing me what a fetus looks like.

00:56:51.140 The fetus is in this picture.

00:56:52.760 Right, but just very, very small.

00:56:54.260 That is how...

00:56:54.720 So how much of that picture is the fetus?

00:56:56.020 It is indistinguishable to the human eye.

00:56:58.900 Oh, so now all you're saying is the fetus at that stage, it's not that the fetus, you

00:57:06.980 know, looks like all...

00:57:07.680 This tissue actually isn't really the fetus.

00:57:09.560 It's in there.

00:57:10.560 Because you can't even see the fetus.

00:57:11.060 It's in there.

00:57:11.500 Exactly.

00:57:11.720 But you can't really see it.

00:57:12.720 So now what you're admitting is you're not showing people a picture of a fetus.

00:57:17.500 You're showing people a picture of a gestational sac that's been expelled with a tiny fetus.

00:57:21.680 If you wanted to show people what a fetus looks like at the age of 10 weeks in gestation, you

00:57:26.420 would show them the fetus itself.

00:57:27.880 And you would have to zoom in because it's a very tiny little guy.

00:57:29.440 You would have to use a microscope in order to see it.

00:57:32.700 You know, this is the year of our Lord, 2022.

00:57:34.100 We have plenty of medical technologies which are being put to great evil.

00:57:37.340 But we can also put them to good use and show what the baby looks like.

00:57:40.500 And it is simply a fact.

00:57:41.440 At 10 weeks, the baby looks like a baby and has little fingernails and little toes and

00:57:45.100 all this little extremity.

00:57:45.880 Do you see it?

00:57:45.900 Do you see the baby in this photo?

00:57:47.340 No, I don't have a microscope.

00:57:48.020 Exactly.

00:57:48.580 And that's what I'm telling you.

00:57:49.820 And that's what I'm telling you.

00:57:50.700 That I need a microscope?

00:57:51.720 So bring me a microscope.

00:57:52.600 So when we talk about abortion, 80% of abortions, this is the contents.

00:57:59.880 And so when we talk about...

00:58:01.140 Can I please finish?

00:58:02.480 Michael, I allowed you to finish and I would...

00:58:04.140 Well, I appreciate you allowing me that.

00:58:05.380 But I guess I just don't want to move past this point.

00:58:08.640 Your argument now is not that the baby looks in a way that you wouldn't expect the baby to

00:58:13.340 look.

00:58:13.740 Your argument is simply that abortion is permissible at this stage because the baby is very,

00:58:18.580 very small and you can't see him in my photograph.

00:58:20.700 No, I am saying that abortion is permissible because it is about the use of the person's

00:58:27.160 body who is pregnant.

00:58:28.420 And I bring these photos because there is so much misinformation put out about this issue.

00:58:34.200 What is misinformation?

00:58:35.160 Well, like you like to say, oh, they react when you eat something spicy.

00:58:38.600 They have little fingers and toes.

00:58:40.040 When in reality, the fetus at nine weeks where 80% of abortions occur is hardly distinguishable

00:58:46.880 to the human eye.

00:58:47.920 So to say that a living person sitting in front of you with dreams and aspirations and health

00:58:54.820 situations and financial situations, mental situations that you cannot possibly understand,

00:59:01.200 when they're sitting in front of you telling you that they do not consent, whether it be

00:59:06.500 because they cannot or will not, you know, endure a pregnancy, you are saying that the tissue

00:59:12.900 within their uterus, which is primarily just a gestational sac and a microscopic fetus, that

00:59:20.160 is worth more than their desires about their own body.

00:59:24.720 And, you know, when misinformation is spread about this issue, it is as if these babies are

00:59:29.980 dismembered and is this very emotional and manipulative language used, when in reality,

00:59:35.560 that is not what happens.

00:59:36.820 They've only been poisoned with a pill and flushed out.

00:59:39.060 They haven't been poisoned.

00:59:40.520 They've made the uterus uninhabitable, so then it is expelled.

00:59:45.540 Yeah, that sounds like poison to me.

00:59:47.680 But the point you're making here, Bronte, is you're saying it's misinformation when I say

00:59:51.520 that a baby at 10 weeks in gestation has little fingers and toes.

00:59:55.920 You're saying that's misinformation?

00:59:57.300 I'm saying that it's not distinguishable and it is not, you can't even see it with the

01:00:01.020 human eye.

01:00:01.480 I can't see your toes with my human eye.

01:00:03.720 Do you have them?

01:00:05.380 Do you have them?

01:00:06.560 I do have toes, yes.

01:00:07.540 You do, but I can't see them with the human eye.

01:00:09.000 Because I have shoes on, Michael.

01:00:10.800 But if I took my shoes off, they are distinguishable to the human eye.

01:00:13.440 Now, what if you were five miles away and I couldn't see your toes five miles away with

01:00:19.760 my human eye?

01:00:20.820 Is this picture five miles away from you, Michael?

01:00:23.020 No, it is not.

01:00:24.200 What I am saying is you can't see my toes because they're within my shoe.

01:00:28.080 You can't see a fetus because it is inside of a person.

01:00:31.480 When it is removed from that person, you still cannot see the fetus, whether you are five

01:00:36.940 miles away or five inches away.

01:00:39.300 And you trying to use emotionally manipulative language to reach your audience and try to

01:00:44.760 get them to vote to ban abortion against the opinion of medical experts.

01:00:50.520 That is why I bring these photos because there are hardly any medically accurate photos

01:00:55.820 representing this issue.

01:00:57.600 And instead, it is primarily illustrations and propaganda that is pushed to manipulate

01:01:03.500 people into removing the bodily autonomy from their fellow citizens.

01:01:07.580 When in reality, these fetuses are hardly distinguishable to the human eye.

01:01:12.420 And we should instead look at the person that I can see in front of me and respect their right

01:01:17.980 to decide what is best for their...

01:01:20.180 She is a living, breathing person with desires.

01:01:23.140 You already said that the baby is living.

01:01:24.800 It's not breathing.

01:01:26.040 It is not autonomous.

01:01:26.960 So if the pregnant mother is intubated, then we can kill her?

01:01:33.000 Because she's not breathing.

01:01:33.920 So that's actually a good question.

01:01:35.660 So if we have someone who's on life support, what are they connected to?

01:01:41.300 Tubes and breathing machines?

01:01:42.660 To a machine, right.

01:01:43.760 And a fetus is connected to a human.

01:01:46.620 So when you use this analogy, there's two options.

01:01:50.260 Either you didn't think your analogy through very well, or you think that living people

01:01:56.960 are equivalent to inanimate objects and machines.

01:02:01.040 And so if that pregnant person who is intubated and connected to a machine, if instead they

01:02:06.520 needed to be connected to a living person in order to survive, our current laws and medical

01:02:12.760 ethics would never allow you to force someone to connect themselves to that person to keep

01:02:19.120 them alive.

01:02:19.680 Unless we're talking about the unique case of motherhood.

01:02:22.020 I mention it because you said that in order for a person to have a right to life, he needs

01:02:26.720 to be breathing.

01:02:27.380 But that's obviously ridiculous.

01:02:29.060 And then the other point here you've mentioned is that because I can't see a fetus at nine

01:02:36.020 weeks gestation with the naked eye, that he isn't real or doesn't exist or doesn't have

01:02:41.280 a right to life or something like that.

01:02:42.680 But I just, I wonder how you apply this principle.

01:02:45.800 Are you saying that the existence or inexistence of a thing is dependent upon whether or not

01:02:53.320 you can see it with your naked eye?

01:02:55.800 I am saying that even if you give a fetus all of the rights of a born living, breathing

01:03:04.000 person, they still cannot use someone's body to survive without their consent.

01:03:09.780 That's a good thing to discuss and I want to get to that.

01:03:12.700 But I don't think we can move past this naked eye thing, which just seems to me so preposterous.

01:03:18.420 You're saying because I can't see someone with a naked eye that that person doesn't exist?

01:03:24.120 I'm saying that someone that I can see and speak to standing in front of me cannot use

01:03:28.920 my body against my will and neither can someone that I cannot even distinguish without a microscope.

01:03:34.400 They cannot use my body against my will.

01:03:36.180 Why not?

01:03:37.140 I mean, they can.

01:03:38.080 Obviously, they can.

01:03:38.660 That's what children do.

01:03:40.200 I mean, usually it's with your will because people generally consent to have sex and children.

01:03:44.960 But even if that were not the case, you just accidentally become pregnant or something

01:03:49.260 like that, it is simply a fact that your child can and does use your body even if it is against

01:03:55.320 your will.

01:03:56.100 So of course that can happen because we're talking about the unique case of motherhood.

01:03:59.620 Right.

01:03:59.900 And so you are arguing that in no other case can someone use someone else's body against

01:04:05.460 their will unless we're talking about motherhood.

01:04:07.780 Right.

01:04:07.940 So you only think that we should remove bodily autonomy from people with uteruses.

01:04:13.240 Well, I don't know what you mean by bodily autonomy.

01:04:15.180 We've already accepted at the beginning of our conversation that we don't have a total

01:04:19.560 inalienable right to do whatever we want with our own bodies.

01:04:22.600 It's interesting that you say that when you can't describe one scenario for me in which

01:04:26.860 someone can use someone else's body legally.

01:04:29.520 Oh, yeah.

01:04:29.920 No, I'm telling you, that would be a unique fact of motherhood.

01:04:33.880 Right.

01:04:34.100 And when I say bodily autonomy, that is what I mean.

01:04:36.360 I mean the use of your body and decisions about what happens to your body.

01:04:41.560 Well, no, no.

01:04:42.200 Decisions about what happens to your body, that's different because of the drug laws and the

01:04:45.620 laws against suicide.

01:04:46.300 Decisions when it comes to how your body is used.

01:04:49.000 If your body is being used by another person.

01:04:52.300 Yeah.

01:04:53.300 Well, or how you use your own body.

01:04:55.940 Right.

01:04:56.100 That would be the case of laws against suicide and drug use.

01:04:58.760 Sure.

01:04:59.460 So then it's not unique.

01:05:00.920 But if we're talking about a baby growing inside you, yeah, of course, that's unique

01:05:04.540 to motherhood.

01:05:04.980 That's the definition of pregnancy.

01:05:06.900 Right.

01:05:07.460 So that's unique.

01:05:08.080 Yeah, I agree with that.

01:05:08.880 Right.

01:05:09.160 Exactly.

01:05:09.620 And so you cannot describe one scenario where someone can use someone else's body.

01:05:13.480 I can't.

01:05:13.500 Yeah, you're right.

01:05:13.820 It's totally unique.

01:05:14.320 Exactly.

01:05:14.800 And that's what I'm trying to describe is the only people in our society that you think

01:05:20.220 don't deserve full bodily autonomy are people with inter-sists.

01:05:24.140 No, no, no.

01:05:25.680 If by bodily autonomy you mean the only people who can have babies grow inside them are mothers.

01:05:36.900 That is true.

01:05:38.020 I agree with that.

01:05:38.740 That's a fact of life.

01:05:39.680 Yeah.

01:05:39.940 That's true.

01:05:40.300 And those are the only people in our society that you are arguing should have their rights

01:05:44.680 to their own body removed.

01:05:45.900 Well, I don't think they have rights to kill babies.

01:05:48.140 Right.

01:05:48.320 Because you don't think that they have rights to their own body.

01:05:50.360 Well, yeah, I don't think people have a total right to do whatever they want with their

01:05:53.180 own bodies anyway, as we've already established.

01:05:54.800 Right.

01:05:55.040 But you don't believe that they have the right to remove consent.

01:06:00.060 What do you mean to remove consent?

01:06:01.840 If they don't consent to their body being used, you don't believe that they have the right

01:06:06.120 to remove that consent.

01:06:07.700 No, I think if you create a child, you don't have the right to kill them.

01:06:10.240 Yeah, I agree.

01:06:11.180 I agree with that.

01:06:11.960 You don't think that if your body is being used against your will, that you have the

01:06:16.920 right to decide that you don't want that to happen?

01:06:19.520 Yeah.

01:06:19.680 In the case of a little baby, no, I don't think you have the right.

01:06:22.180 If you've changed your mind and you say, I don't like this baby anymore and I want

01:06:25.960 to kill him, I don't think you have the right to kill him, just because you no longer

01:06:28.440 consent.

01:06:29.060 Right.

01:06:29.380 Even though your opinion does not coincide with the opinions of medical experts.

01:06:33.800 Yeah.

01:06:34.120 Well, it certainly coincides with the opinions of bioethical experts and it's certainly with

01:06:37.800 some medical experts, but yeah, I don't really care what some maniac obstetrician.

01:06:40.940 Except for 95% of OBGYNs who are the country and the world's leading experts on pregnant

01:06:46.500 people, 95% of them would, you know, help their patient access abortion regardless of

01:06:52.180 their own personal feelings.

01:06:52.820 You just told me a number of them would commit murder even though they think it's murder.

01:06:56.160 So I don't really trust that.

01:06:56.940 No, I'm telling you that people who spend their lives training to care for pregnant people

01:07:02.840 and understand the complexities of pregnancy and the lives of pregnant people understand

01:07:08.360 that regardless of their own feelings, that they cannot impede someone's access to medical

01:07:13.380 care.

01:07:13.960 And so I understand that you might not feel like that's appropriate, but for me, I would

01:07:19.820 want my doctors who train their entire lives to be specialists in their field, I believe

01:07:25.120 that we should abide by their expertise and that someone who's not trained in the complexities

01:07:31.040 of medicine, their opinion should not override someone's opinion.

01:07:35.320 Well, I think we're talking a little bit in circles now.

01:07:38.160 And I don't think that the obstetricians necessarily have the greatest training in ethics or, you

01:07:45.460 know, philosophy or morality or anything like that.

01:07:48.940 So I don't trust them on those issues.

01:07:50.860 Or I don't really trust the medical establishment on a whole host of issues because they tend to

01:07:54.320 get things wrong so frequently, sometimes egregiously wrong.

01:07:57.480 But regardless, I then have to ask, why has this become such a cause for you?

01:08:05.760 You're a very prominent voice on this issue.

01:08:08.840 What is it about abortion where you say, this is my issue?

01:08:13.000 So it was actually an accident.

01:08:16.280 Essentially, I'm in medical school.

01:08:18.660 I am a woman in medicine.

01:08:20.920 And seeing the rights to our bodies be removed against the expertise of medical experts, that

01:08:28.100 is a passionate issue for me because I am trained and passionate in defending the opinions

01:08:34.020 of medical experts.

01:08:34.900 So it was medical school that started this?

01:08:37.240 Yeah.

01:08:37.720 Well, I mean, I've always been pro-choice my entire life.

01:08:41.760 Ironically, I grew up in Texas and I grew up Republican, but I was always, yeah.

01:08:46.500 You grew up Republican?

01:08:47.460 I did.

01:08:47.880 I grew up Republican.

01:08:48.700 What happened, Brontë?

01:08:50.160 What happened?

01:08:50.800 I became educated, Michael.

01:08:52.060 Oh, did you?

01:08:53.160 I did, yeah.

01:08:53.600 You'll have to look into it.

01:08:54.200 I became educated and informed and I realized that, you know, my opinions on certain things

01:09:01.020 were completely removed from the reality of the issue.

01:09:04.340 And then the deeper and deeper that I got into my education, like I said, I got my master's.

01:09:07.920 I'm almost done with my doctorate.

01:09:09.320 And I realized that people who train their entire lives to analyze this issue are, you

01:09:16.260 know, putting up a very solid front.

01:09:19.180 And there's 95% of them that agree that this is a, we should have access to this.

01:09:24.800 If the American Academy of Obstetricians or whatever the group is, if they told you to

01:09:29.320 walk off a bridge, would you do it?

01:09:31.500 That's not pertaining to my medical care.

01:09:34.240 Well, it would be, depending on how well you swim.

01:09:37.420 That's not pertaining to my medical care.

01:09:39.100 That's not a medical condition.

01:09:40.700 That is not a medical treatment.

01:09:41.860 So it is an irrelevant question.

01:09:43.300 If they told you that the best treatment for cancer is to eat a lollipop jumping on

01:09:47.200 a pogo stick, would you trust them?

01:09:48.700 If they showed me the science behind it, then sure.

01:09:51.540 Oh, okay.

01:09:52.180 Well, that's a little bit different.

01:09:53.560 Because then you're using, because then you're not just deferring to the experts.

01:09:56.120 You're using your own faculties of reason.

01:09:57.460 Well, the experts use evidence-based medicine.

01:10:00.020 And so if they are able to show me the evidence behind their opinion, which all medical experts

01:10:05.420 should be able to do, then I trust them.

01:10:07.620 Which on this issue of abortion and abortion access, they're able to show multitudes of

01:10:12.940 studies how...

01:10:14.580 Of why it's okay to kill a human being.

01:10:15.860 No, why banning abortion access actually harms more people.

01:10:19.120 So Colorado University actually did a study showing that abortion bans are likely going

01:10:23.840 to increase maternal mortality by 24%, and that abortion bans do not minimize or decrease

01:10:30.080 the amount of abortions that occur.

01:10:31.580 They don't?

01:10:32.160 No.

01:10:32.360 Really?

01:10:32.660 They do not.

01:10:33.160 So what happened to abortion after Roe v. Wade was decided?

01:10:37.100 What do you mean?

01:10:37.780 The number of abortions.

01:10:39.220 We have the statistics.

01:10:40.460 What happened?

01:10:41.060 Did it go up or down?

01:10:42.780 I mean, it depends because a lot of...

01:10:44.840 It doesn't depend.

01:10:45.360 But a lot of people, because abortions become illegal and they are difficult to quantify.

01:10:49.580 No, but Roe v. Wade made abortion legal nationally.

01:10:52.900 What happened to the total number of abortions?

01:10:54.040 The total number of abortions that are accessed through proper medical channels decreased, not

01:10:59.480 the amount of abortions that happen at people's homes unsafely and illegally.

01:11:03.760 No, no, no.

01:11:04.880 Maybe you misheard.

01:11:06.660 Roe v. Wade, 1973, legalizes abortion.

01:11:09.920 So the total number of abortions that happened after abortion became legal, you just said that

01:11:15.840 the number of...

01:11:16.500 Sorry, I thought you were referring to the overturning...

01:11:18.580 Jobs, yeah, yeah.

01:11:19.300 So 1973, because you were just saying that abortion bans actually don't reduce the number

01:11:24.480 of abortions.

01:11:25.240 Legalizing it doesn't necessarily increase it.

01:11:26.920 But what happened...

01:11:27.380 No, it doesn't go the other way because people who desire an abortion and need an abortion

01:11:31.840 are going to access it regardless if it's illegal or legal, safe or unsafe.

01:11:35.660 But it has to go the other way because the question is, is the regulation of the abortion?

01:11:41.600 So it necessarily has to go...

01:11:43.220 It's going to...

01:11:43.820 If you legalize abortion, it increases the safe and legal abortions.

01:11:48.060 If you ban abortion, it's going to increase the amount of illegal and unsafe abortion.

01:11:53.080 But it is...

01:11:53.320 What about the total number of abortions, though?

01:11:55.680 That's what I'm asking about.

01:11:56.740 The illegal ones and the legal ones and the bad ones you don't like and the good ones

01:11:59.940 you do like.

01:12:00.600 What happened after Roe v. Wade?

01:12:02.760 Well, the safe and legal ones when Roe v. Wade in the 70s...

01:12:06.280 I'm talking about total abortions.

01:12:08.000 It stays relatively the same.

01:12:09.440 It's going to increase in the statistics because we can quantify the amount of people who receive

01:12:14.200 abortion access through medical care.

01:12:15.780 But we can also quantify the illegal ones, too.

01:12:18.160 So why don't you tell me, Michael?

01:12:19.500 Well, the abortions went way, way up and they actually doubled.

01:12:21.980 But even to your point on quantifying illegal abortions and legal abortions, you know, we

01:12:26.620 can quantify the illegal abortions.

01:12:28.620 And there was this canard that went around that before Roe v. Wade, thousands of women

01:12:32.600 died every year from illegal abortions.

01:12:34.340 And you're referring to maternal mortality rates are being predicted by all the doom and gloom

01:12:38.000 people.

01:12:38.380 They're going to skyrocket.

01:12:39.220 But you probably know this statistic.

01:12:43.000 How many women actually died the year before Roe v. Wade was decided from illegal abortions

01:12:47.340 in the United States?

01:12:48.780 I know that about 700 to 800 women die every year from pregnancy complications.

01:12:54.260 And I know that unsafe abortions are in the top four leading causes of maternal mortality.

01:12:59.700 But I don't know the amount of people who died prior to Roe v. Wade from illegal abortions.

01:13:03.540 It's 39 in the year before Roe v. Wade was decided.

01:13:07.240 39 women died.

01:13:08.320 And those 39 women, that's not a big enough number for you to care.

01:13:11.140 No, but do you know how many women died from legal abortions that year?

01:13:14.080 Legal, wonderful, safe, beautiful, you know.

01:13:16.600 How many?

01:13:17.040 24.

01:13:18.100 Now, if you look at the percentage of states where abortion was legal and illegal, the

01:13:21.840 craziest thing is that your likelihood of dying from a legal abortion or an illegal

01:13:25.480 abortion was virtually the same.

01:13:27.340 See, and I've seen different numbers.

01:13:28.740 I've seen that only in the past, I believe it was 2018, only two people died from complications.

01:13:33.540 from legal abortion.

01:13:36.520 Oh, well, of course, because the numbers declined dramatically.

01:13:38.880 The way that they got away with pretending that 5,000 women died a year from abortion,

01:13:42.220 other than Dr. Bernard Nathanson admitted that he just made it up when he was running NARAL.

01:13:46.440 But the reason is because decades prior, many more women died from abortions because medical

01:13:52.280 care just had not progressed to that point.

01:13:53.840 But so obviously, since 1973, medical care has progressed even more.

01:13:57.260 So you would expect that number to go down for legal and illegal.

01:13:59.840 The reason I bring it up is because those scare numbers are, I think they're just used

01:14:05.740 as a kind of propaganda.

01:14:07.360 They deceive in that the numbers usually aren't right and they're dramatically wrong.

01:14:12.420 And because the number for the illegal and illegal were basically the same.

01:14:16.220 So my question for you is, it seems like you consistently want to find ways to minimize

01:14:23.160 the harm that is experienced by pregnant people.

01:14:26.180 And you really want to hone in on mortality, right?

01:14:29.720 Because you think that death is the only negative outcome of pregnancy.

01:14:33.120 No, no, I never said that.

01:14:34.000 There's a lot of suffering that goes along with pregnancy.

01:14:35.600 Exactly.

01:14:36.040 And you think that you get to decide that people who become pregnant should just be obligated

01:14:40.440 to endure that suffering.

01:14:41.980 Whether or not it's...

01:14:42.380 Yes, if the alternative is killing the baby, then yes, yes.

01:14:45.060 So even though the fetus that is completely unaware of its own existence and is not even...

01:14:49.520 A three-month-old baby is unaware of its own existence.

01:14:51.280 Right, but people aren't getting abortions at three months.

01:14:54.360 And people who do get abortions at three months, it is largely because of medical concerns

01:14:58.680 or because they do not have timely access to medical care.

01:15:00.960 No, I mean three months out of the womb.

01:15:02.540 I mean a three-month-old after birth.

01:15:04.620 They're not aware of themselves.

01:15:06.300 But they can feel.

01:15:07.060 They can feel pain.

01:15:08.020 They can feel fear.

01:15:08.880 They can feel hope.

01:15:09.640 Not at nine weeks, they cannot.

01:15:11.680 Not at nine weeks, it's questionable.

01:15:13.400 No, it's really not.

01:15:14.360 Not from science.

01:15:15.060 Because we understand the neural networks that are required in order for you to perceive

01:15:18.860 pain and feel emotion.

01:15:20.240 And those neural networks are not present at nine weeks.

01:15:22.760 Yeah, well, it's questionable because people keep moving the definition.

01:15:27.140 So you could say that a baby at 10 weeks has a beating heart.

01:15:29.880 Well, those...

01:15:31.200 It doesn't actually have...

01:15:32.140 But usually it doesn't actually have a beating heart because it doesn't look totally

01:15:34.540 like a heart.

01:15:35.040 No, because it doesn't have all of the chambers of your heart.

01:15:37.860 It is not an anatomical heart.

01:15:39.480 It is the electrical cells that are able to have an electrical impulse.

01:15:43.720 And so again, in order...

01:15:44.960 You know, when you use this language, like the heart is beating and it has a beating heart.

01:15:48.960 You can hear it actually on the ultrasound.

01:15:50.600 That is emotional.

01:15:51.260 Actually, that's a simulated heart sound because it is an electrical impulse.

01:15:55.380 Based on what?

01:15:56.520 Because your heart sounds, when we...

01:15:58.000 Say we listen with a stethoscope, the heart sounds are made from the valves of your heart

01:16:01.980 opening and closing.

01:16:02.940 That is what creates that heart sound.

01:16:04.600 And when you don't have the proper chambers of your heart at that week of gestation, many

01:16:10.480 times the sound on the ultrasound machine is a simulated sound.

01:16:14.940 It can pick up the electrical impulses, but it's a simulated sound.

01:16:18.660 Exactly.

01:16:19.240 It's translating a represented into a representation.

01:16:24.200 So it is true that a baby at 10 weeks gestation is different, in a way, from a 10-year-old kid.

01:16:30.900 Undeveloped.

01:16:31.480 Yeah, right.

01:16:31.900 Different meaning undeveloped, non-sentient, non-autonomous.

01:16:35.200 It's not undeveloped.

01:16:35.920 It's just less developed.

01:16:36.880 No, it's undeveloped.

01:16:37.860 But it's more developed than it was at nine weeks.

01:16:39.900 Right?

01:16:40.000 It's developing.

01:16:40.500 Sure.

01:16:40.920 So, yes, it's true that it translates that heart impulse into a sound in some cases.

01:16:48.560 But where does the sound come from?

01:16:50.460 The sound is a representation of what is and will further become the baby's heart.

01:16:55.880 But it's not yet.

01:16:57.400 No, it is.

01:16:57.920 It's an existing anatomical heart.

01:16:59.820 No, it's anatomical.

01:17:00.540 But it is not existing in the way that you want.

01:17:03.260 It does.

01:17:03.880 It does.

01:17:04.420 It's both of those things.

01:17:05.120 It is electrical cells.

01:17:06.520 It is cells that carry an electrical.

01:17:07.840 Yeah, it's cells proper to a 10-week-old baby that are different in some way from cells that

01:17:14.680 have a 15-week-old baby and a 10-year-old baby and a 25-year-old.

01:17:17.360 And again, I'm going to continue to repeat, even if you want to apply all of the same rights

01:17:23.960 that a living, breathing person has, you want to give the fetus those same rights, nobody

01:17:29.400 has the right to use your body against your will.

01:17:31.780 Not a nine-week-old fetus.

01:17:33.280 Not a 40-year-old man.

01:17:34.700 It doesn't matter.

01:17:35.700 And so when you want to remove the right for someone to decide what happens to their body,

01:17:39.660 you're arguing that the only people who should have those rights to their body removed are

01:17:43.740 people with uteruses who become purposefully or accidentally pregnant.

01:17:47.020 They are not deserving of basic human rights, and that is what you were trying to say.

01:17:50.460 I really like people with uteruses, so I have no problem with them.

01:17:53.980 Right, when you get to decide what happens to their body, when they are trying to decide

01:17:57.440 Well, we live in self-governance, so yeah, we make all sorts of decisions about how we

01:18:00.900 should live.

01:18:01.540 But you keep going back to rights, which is interesting to me, because I don't think of

01:18:05.380 politics primarily through a lens of rights.

01:18:07.780 But you do.

01:18:08.700 You keep going back to rights.

01:18:10.120 Fundamental rights to do whatever I want with my body in these circumstances or whatever.

01:18:14.460 So, okay, if we're talking about rights, are all rights equal?

01:18:18.820 Are all rights on this, you know, my right to have this pink fruity drink here, is that

01:18:22.320 the same as your right to, I don't know, drive a car or something?

01:18:25.400 No.

01:18:25.600 I don't believe they're all equal, no.

01:18:26.780 Okay, so then there are gradations of rights.

01:18:29.000 Some are more important than others.

01:18:30.160 Is there one most important right that you would call it a fundamental right, the fundamental

01:18:34.700 right?

01:18:35.300 The right to your body and the right to decide what happens to your body.

01:18:38.620 There's no right that precedes it?

01:18:41.540 I mean, it depends.

01:18:42.360 What rights do you think precede that?

01:18:45.140 Well, it seemed to me that the right to your body and the right to do certain things to

01:18:49.860 your body must necessarily be preceded by the right to life, without which you do not have

01:18:55.060 your body or the ability to do anything at all.

01:18:57.100 Well, and as I've described, your right to life does not get to supersede or override someone

01:19:06.720 else's right to bodily autonomy.

01:19:08.660 But I thought we just admitted that it did.

01:19:10.660 You said that.

01:19:11.620 Oh, you didn't agree with me.

01:19:13.240 You said that.

01:19:13.300 Okay.

01:19:13.540 Because it seems to me, if we're going to have any rights at all, the right to drink

01:19:16.580 my fruity drink, the right to have a lovely conversation in this kind of black room here,

01:19:20.740 any of these other rights, that all of those rights depend upon the right to life, which

01:19:25.400 is not just one right among many, but it is the fundamental right.

01:19:29.160 And so therefore, if rights are to have any meaning at all, the right to life must supersede

01:19:35.700 all of the other ones.

01:19:36.640 And I disagree.

01:19:38.260 I think that you have, I think you have a right to life, but your right to life does

01:19:43.080 not override someone's right to bodily autonomy.

01:19:45.820 You're saying that, but why is that true?

01:19:47.800 Because you, as I've asked you quite a few times now, you cannot describe to me one instance,

01:19:54.380 except motherhood, where it is acceptable for you to use someone's-

01:19:58.500 Motherhood's unique.

01:19:59.200 But I'm just saying, you are saying that the right to do whatever you want with your body

01:20:03.400 supersedes the right to life.

01:20:05.200 It's more fundamental than the right to life.

01:20:07.020 And I explained to you why I think that the right to life is fundamental and more important

01:20:12.600 than all those other rights.

01:20:13.760 And I gave you, maybe you don't like my argument or something, but I think I at least spelled

01:20:17.120 it out in a way that's fairly clear and logical.

01:20:19.400 So what is your argument as to why the right to control your own body is more fundamental

01:20:26.440 than the right to life?

01:20:27.780 Because I think that if you allow the government to decide that someone else's right to life can

01:20:33.980 override your right to bodily autonomy, that is opening the door for a lot of terrifying

01:20:38.460 things to happen.

01:20:39.280 This is why you have to volunteer to be an organ donor.

01:20:42.100 This is why you have to volunteer to be a blood donor.

01:20:45.660 Things like that.

01:20:46.420 If we allowed the government to say that someone else's right to life can supersede your right

01:20:53.300 to your body, that is a pretty terrifying amount of power to give to the government.

01:20:57.480 No, but we're speaking about, I mean, you're talking about organ donations, but we're speaking

01:21:01.100 about this unique case, right?

01:21:03.220 Because-

01:21:03.600 No, we're talking about the use of your body.

01:21:06.060 Right.

01:21:06.480 But for instance, Bronte, I have kidneys.

01:21:10.480 I don't need both of my kidneys.

01:21:12.460 Maybe I do to filter all these terrible things I put into my body.

01:21:15.300 But I don't really need both of them.

01:21:17.200 I could give them to someone else.

01:21:19.000 But it would be wrong if the government came in and said, Michael, we're taking your kidney

01:21:23.460 now because Bronte needs it.

01:21:24.840 I might give it to you voluntarily, but I certainly wouldn't want someone coming in

01:21:28.100 gunpoint, taking my kidney away.

01:21:30.120 That would be wrong.

01:21:31.180 Even if you were in dire straits, I wouldn't, I still might give it to you, but I don't

01:21:36.140 want someone taking it from me.

01:21:37.180 And I don't think that I have an obligation to give you my kidney.

01:21:39.820 Right.

01:21:40.020 Because my kidney is for filtering my blood.

01:21:42.480 That's what it's for.

01:21:43.360 Right.

01:21:43.560 But in the same way, a woman's womb is for nurturing a child.

01:21:50.400 That is the telos.

01:21:51.520 That is the purpose of the womb.

01:21:53.640 It serves no other purpose.

01:21:56.080 So I don't think that the analogy that you're making here is apt.

01:22:00.440 I think, once again, it gets back to the unique status of motherhood.

01:22:05.460 So the same thing can be said for your liver, right?

01:22:09.320 Your liver...

01:22:09.920 No one wants my liver.

01:22:11.020 Well, but your liver, the purpose of your liver is to detoxify your blood.

01:22:16.060 It can process alcohol.

01:22:17.360 It can process all kinds of toxins.

01:22:19.240 But if I don't ingest those toxins, then my liver doesn't have to do that job.

01:22:24.100 If I don't choose to harbor a fetus, my uterus doesn't have to harbor that fetus.

01:22:29.560 Just because your body can do something doesn't mean that you should be compelled for it to do

01:22:34.820 If you choose not to have a drink, then your liver is not going to process alcohol.

01:22:40.380 Correct.

01:22:40.780 There's no way the alcohol got in there.

01:22:42.800 But if you decide after, I don't know, you had a crazy weekend, you went out here to Nashville,

01:22:48.240 met a nice guy.

01:22:49.200 You would never do this, but I'm saying women of ill repute would go out and they meet a guy.

01:22:54.380 He's not so nice.

01:22:56.300 Anyway, the next morning she finds out she's pregnant.

01:22:59.000 Really, four weeks later she would find out.

01:23:00.260 That's very fast.

01:23:00.680 But it would be very fast.

01:23:01.620 But mothers know.

01:23:02.980 And anyway, she finds out she's pregnant.

01:23:04.800 She says, oh darn, I don't want to be pregnant.

01:23:07.160 And you know, that baby has no right to be in my womb.

01:23:10.820 She has engaged in behavior that would introduce the baby into her womb in a way that if you

01:23:16.820 put the drink down, you will not be introducing alcohol to your liver.

01:23:19.660 So should we then deny health care to alcoholics because they partook in behaviors that caused

01:23:27.300 them to have liver failure?

01:23:28.520 No.

01:23:28.720 Should we deny smokers access to medical care because they partook in behaviors that damaged

01:23:35.860 their lungs?

01:23:36.660 No, no.

01:23:37.160 No, but you believe that—

01:23:38.440 We shouldn't kill them, though.

01:23:39.520 I don't think we should kill them or steal their livers or anything like that.

01:23:42.380 It's not equivalent.

01:23:43.160 I don't think we should go in and kill the baby just because the mother wants to—

01:23:45.800 But you are saying that you get to judge someone based off of their behaviors.

01:23:50.280 And because of those behaviors—

01:23:51.320 No, no.

01:23:51.700 Well—

01:23:51.960 And because of those behaviors, you believe that they should be denied access to health

01:23:56.000 care in order to address the effects of those behaviors.

01:23:59.400 And not if it's a drinker, not if it's a smoker, but if it's a woman, then sure, now

01:24:04.300 we get to remove the right to her body and the effects of her behavior.

01:24:08.240 No, well, and I guess we're again missing the point.

01:24:11.100 I don't think a mother ever has the right to kill her child in any circumstances.

01:24:15.000 So I'm not suggesting that we single mothers out here or that it would be very judgmental

01:24:21.220 or anything like that or deny anybody health care.

01:24:23.620 I just don't think that killing a baby is ever health care.

01:24:26.220 I think that's a euphemism.

01:24:27.380 And that's where you're wrong.

01:24:27.840 As you kind of admitted at the top.

01:24:29.160 No, that's where you're wrong.

01:24:29.840 When we talk about the distinction between babies and fetuses.

01:24:31.580 See, and that's where you're wrong, though, because when we've talked about maternal mortality

01:24:35.460 rates, we've talked about the number one cause of death for pregnant people is homicide.

01:24:38.840 Maternal mortality is still very low, by the way.

01:24:40.380 Right.

01:24:40.680 Do you know the amount of people who have, do you know the difference between maternal

01:24:44.460 mortality and maternal morbidity?

01:24:47.300 No.

01:24:48.220 Enlighten me.

01:24:49.180 So morbidity is essentially unforeseen or serious health effects of a medical condition.

01:24:55.220 So maternal morbidity is when someone experiences severe complications of pregnancy and labor.

01:25:00.620 And I know that you think that 700 to 800 women dying annually from pregnancy is too low for

01:25:06.180 you to care.

01:25:07.540 No, no.

01:25:08.040 Well, we should bring the number down, but we shouldn't kill 850,000 babies to pretend

01:25:12.640 to resolve that.

01:25:13.320 So 60,000 people every year have serious maternal morbidity, which means there's certain codes that

01:25:21.440 they use, like insurance codes that they use to determine whether or not you experienced

01:25:26.460 a severe side effect.

01:25:27.520 And some of those codes are having an ICU admission or needing multiple blood transfusions,

01:25:32.660 things like that.

01:25:33.360 And 60,000 women every year are admitted into the ICU or need blood transfusions, what have

01:25:40.440 you, that qualify.

01:25:41.380 That's the whole definition of a severe morbidity?

01:25:44.740 There's, I think, 10 different codes.

01:25:45.480 Are we talking about ICU or are we talking about certain things that are less severe?

01:25:48.560 It's severe.

01:25:49.840 What would be some of the other examples?

01:25:51.240 So it depends because it can be sepsis, hemorrhage, I think pulmonary embolism.

01:25:57.760 There's multitudes of different complications that can't be classified.

01:26:01.000 We're not talking about something like tearing or something like that.

01:26:03.340 No, that's minor.

01:26:04.160 And that's not included in 60,000.

01:26:06.080 So that's my point.

01:26:07.120 Is 60,000 women every year experience severe morbidity?

01:26:11.320 And that's not including the women who just develop things like diabetes or have a perineal

01:26:16.760 tear.

01:26:17.320 Well, that's actually a very important point that you bring up of some of these problems

01:26:21.520 that go along with pregnancy.

01:26:22.540 Because something that the abortion advocates mention that often is not addressed by the

01:26:28.360 pro-life movement, not that I think it needs to be, but it's interesting nonetheless, is that

01:26:32.360 the United States is not the best when it comes to maternal mortality.

01:26:35.880 We're not the worst, but we're not the best.

01:26:37.380 And there are lots of problems with it.

01:26:39.100 But the reason for that, of course, is not because of any conspiracy among the doctors

01:26:44.140 or misogyny or anything like that, I don't think.

01:26:46.820 I think it probably has more to do with America's disproportionate rates of obesity and heart

01:26:52.780 disease and diabetes.

01:26:54.580 You look especially, it's not as though complications of pregnancy are the same across all demographics.

01:26:59.880 It's largely concentrated in black women.

01:27:02.560 And the reason for that, it would seem to me, is that black women are much more likely to

01:27:08.020 be obese and to have heart problems and have diabetes and all those things that do factor

01:27:12.220 into pregnancy problems.

01:27:14.140 But that's not a...

01:27:15.720 Again, I don't think any of that is a good argument to kill a bunch of babies every single

01:27:19.220 year.

01:27:19.940 But that seems like a health issue that should be addressed elsewhere, right?

01:27:23.260 Getting people to exercise, put down the cupcake, not be so obese and have a heart problem.

01:27:27.620 Many pregnancy complications are unavoidable and unforeseen.

01:27:31.180 And so sure, there are comorbidities that make you more likely.

01:27:33.880 A lot of them are.

01:27:34.300 But some are not, I agree.

01:27:36.020 But when we live in a country where health care is inaccessible and unaffordable to a

01:27:41.040 large majority of Americans or a large percentage of Americans...

01:27:43.600 Yeah, that seems like overstating.

01:27:45.000 Well, yeah, it depends on the statistics and it depends on what you classify as unaffordable

01:27:49.480 and unaccessible.

01:27:50.700 Because someone can be living in a rural area and it'd be less accessible.

01:27:55.240 Someone can be in financial situations, it'd be unaffordable.

01:27:58.260 It just depends on your classification.

01:27:59.440 But I don't...

01:28:01.020 The thing is, this entire conversation, you are very fetus-centered, where I am very...

01:28:06.760 Is that what I am?

01:28:07.280 Yes, where I am very woman-centered.

01:28:09.380 When we are going through these scenarios, you consistently center the fetus.

01:28:14.420 Where I consistently center the woman, I want to consider her health, her finances, her

01:28:20.540 mentality, and her body.

01:28:22.060 Do you think that I'm neglecting that?

01:28:23.580 Yes.

01:28:24.260 Yes, because you believe that the only people in our society who shouldn't get to decide

01:28:29.240 what happens to their body are people with uteruses.

01:28:31.880 I don't think that people have an absolute right over their own body.

01:28:34.800 Exactly.

01:28:35.440 And that's where...

01:28:35.720 I don't think anybody does.

01:28:36.500 That's where we disagree.

01:28:37.680 But I know, but you're putting an opinion into my head that I'm...

01:28:39.920 No, you've said it multiple times that...

01:28:41.660 I haven't.

01:28:42.520 What you've said is you cannot tell me one scenario in society where someone can use someone's

01:28:46.960 body against their will, but unless that is a...

01:28:50.720 Oh, I don't know.

01:28:50.740 Hard labor in a prison.

01:28:52.200 You know, that would be one scenario.

01:28:54.300 Yeah, well, that's in a completely different topic because that is, you know, essentially...

01:28:58.880 But if you...

01:28:59.580 When you described it and you said, you know, name me a scenario where someone other than

01:29:04.460 a mother, or I'm sorry, a pregnant person has someone growing inside of them using their

01:29:09.020 organs.

01:29:09.440 I say, okay, I can't name any other scenario.

01:29:11.180 You're right.

01:29:11.400 That's unique to motherhood.

01:29:12.540 You're right.

01:29:12.960 You're right.

01:29:13.300 It is unique.

01:29:14.260 No, I didn't say growing inside of them.

01:29:15.840 I said, tell me a scenario where someone can use someone else's body without their consent.

01:29:22.620 And you can't name me a time.

01:29:23.840 Well, I just told you, hard labor in a prison.

01:29:26.460 Well, I mean, again, that is an issue in and of itself.

01:29:29.380 Yeah, but I have no problem.

01:29:29.900 We shouldn't...

01:29:30.580 That's not rehabbing someone.

01:29:32.520 Like, that is definitely taking advantage of a broken system.

01:29:35.100 Well, yeah, but there are three purposes to criminal justice.

01:29:37.660 I guess this is a little bit of a pivot here, but it's not just rehabilitation.

01:29:40.760 We could all use a little rehabilitation.

01:29:42.280 People go to prison to get punished.

01:29:43.940 Yeah, well, it should be rehabilitation.

01:29:45.440 Should it not?

01:29:46.240 I mean, this is a pivot.

01:29:47.800 And I just think it's funny that the only other scenario you can bring up is definitely

01:29:51.280 a symptom of a broken system.

01:29:52.960 And so...

01:29:53.160 No, I don't think that's definitely...

01:29:54.180 I think it's good to punish criminals.

01:29:56.340 I think that's good.

01:29:56.960 I mean...

01:29:57.340 Why is that bad?

01:29:58.680 It depends on the crime.

01:29:59.940 But I am naturally...

01:30:00.800 It's not like a bad crime.

01:30:01.760 Like, really bad crime, you know?

01:30:02.960 Again, I mean, this is, you know, going off into the weeds.

01:30:07.260 But I'm naturally a compassionate person, and I see the best in people.

01:30:11.280 And I believe especially a lot of crime is committed because of circumstances that people

01:30:16.620 find themselves in.

01:30:17.460 And I think...

01:30:18.440 I don't mean to be this blunt, but I guess I have to be.

01:30:20.900 Go for it.

01:30:21.260 You have been sitting here describing how it is good and moral to permit a system to

01:30:30.000 exist that kills 850,000 people who you admit are human beings every single year because

01:30:37.440 of the desires of another person.

01:30:40.100 That has been your position.

01:30:41.360 And I'm not calling you evil because of that.

01:30:43.480 I think you're just extraordinarily confused and misguided.

01:30:45.820 But to say, you know, I'm such a compassionate person as I make it my jihad to permit the

01:30:53.240 killing of 850,000 babies, who I admit are babies every single year, seems to me absurd.

01:30:58.660 See?

01:30:59.080 And this is why I bring up that you are entirely fetus-centered in this conversation, and you

01:31:04.740 completely disregard the trauma experienced by pregnant people.

01:31:08.700 I'm not acknowledging it entirely.

01:31:09.720 I've said so many times that women suffer in pregnancy.

01:31:12.100 But you don't feel like it's worth protecting them from.

01:31:14.640 You don't feel like it's worth-

01:31:15.480 No, I think it's definitely worth protecting them and giving them the best medical care

01:31:18.200 you can.

01:31:18.760 I just don't think it's worth sanctioning the killing of 850,000 babies a year.

01:31:22.320 Giving people medical care does not, you know, minimize or does not get rid of the trauma

01:31:28.260 and suffering of pregnancy.

01:31:29.480 You can have all the medical care in the world available to you, and you still will experience

01:31:33.980 some trauma, some pain, and some suffering throughout your pregnancy.

01:31:37.160 Yeah, you want to mitigate that.

01:31:38.500 That's right.

01:31:38.720 Right.

01:31:38.900 But if you do not consent to that suffering-

01:31:42.500 You're just talking about rape, which is a very, very small percentage of abortions

01:31:45.880 every day.

01:31:46.080 Oh, yeah.

01:31:46.420 Less than 1%.

01:31:46.740 So it doesn't matter, right?

01:31:47.900 No, it's worth discussing.

01:31:50.280 But that is clearly the exception of the exception of the exception, not the rule.

01:31:55.840 Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy.

01:31:58.380 Oh, yes, it is.

01:31:59.180 No, it is not.

01:32:00.020 It's consent to the possibility of pregnancy.

01:32:02.840 It's not consent to enduring pregnancy.

01:32:04.320 Okay, there you go.

01:32:04.900 As I've said-

01:32:05.580 But if it's consent to the possibility of pregnancy, then it is consent to pregnancy.

01:32:09.100 It is not.

01:32:09.900 It is not consent to enduring pregnancy.

01:32:12.760 I don't even know how to respond to that.

01:32:14.800 How is it not?

01:32:15.600 It's okay.

01:32:15.740 I mean, you've just said that when you consent to sex, you are acknowledging the possibility

01:32:21.300 of becoming pregnant and consenting to that.

01:32:23.880 So you are consenting to that.

01:32:28.580 If I consent to go to the bar, and I know that if I go to the bar, there is a possibility

01:32:35.580 that I get drunk.

01:32:38.180 And then I know if I get drunk, there's a possibility that I have a hangover the next morning.

01:32:43.620 Then when I go out there to that bar with the boys for a rowdy Saturday night, I am consenting

01:32:49.320 to that hangover that I am going to have, that will involve some suffering and maybe teach

01:32:53.180 me some lessons in the morning.

01:32:54.420 Right.

01:32:54.840 So I don't say, how is that different with pregnancy?

01:32:56.940 Right.

01:32:57.220 I'll explain it to you.

01:32:58.140 So, because it's not that different.

01:33:00.200 So say that not, you just didn't have a hangover, because a hangover doesn't necessarily require

01:33:04.600 medical care.

01:33:05.480 Say that you had alcohol poisoning.

01:33:07.560 Should you go to the ER and then be turned away because they're like, well, you drank,

01:33:12.460 so you consented to the possibility of alcohol poisoning, and we have restricted your

01:33:16.500 access to medical care because you consented to the possibility of this happening?

01:33:19.700 No, no, of course.

01:33:20.020 But again, as we've pointed out, the issue of abortion does not merely concern the mother.

01:33:26.920 It concerns this other person who you've admitted is a human being.

01:33:29.680 So I think a more apt analogy would be, if I go out to the bar, and I wake up, and I've

01:33:34.960 got this headache, and my kid just won't stop crying.

01:33:38.660 You know, this kid, and he cries.

01:33:40.460 He cries and he cries.

01:33:41.660 But I got this throbbing headache.

01:33:43.680 And so I say, you know, I've got to kill my kid.

01:33:46.640 I've got to kill my kid to shut him up because he's crying too much.

01:33:48.980 And it's really, ah, my body and my head is just throbbing, and I'm suffering.

01:33:52.980 And it's just going to make me feel a lot better if I kill my little baby.

01:33:55.640 Who, by the way, is exactly as sentient, well, exactly as sentient, I'll even go further,

01:34:02.560 conscious, self-aware as the little baby in the womb.

01:34:07.600 Okay?

01:34:08.020 It's not.

01:34:08.700 It is.

01:34:09.080 Of course it is.

01:34:09.280 No, it's not.

01:34:09.800 Of course it is.

01:34:10.380 It's not.

01:34:10.640 Well, you haven't asked me how old my kid is.

01:34:12.340 It doesn't matter.

01:34:13.100 If they are a born child who is autonomous, they are not equal to a fetus.

01:34:17.340 Bronte, oh my goodness.

01:34:18.340 What do you think little babies are like if you think they're autonomous?

01:34:21.920 So you're confusing biological autonomy with functional autonomy.

01:34:26.000 Would you like me to define those for you?

01:34:28.040 Oh, please do, yes.

01:34:29.000 So biological autonomy is when your bodily system can support itself, your organs can support

01:34:33.840 itself, and you do not need to be connected to another person biologically for your body

01:34:38.420 systems to function.

01:34:38.920 Oh, so maybe like a baby in the womb at 25 weeks.

01:34:42.780 Sure.

01:34:43.600 It would be biologically.

01:34:44.360 When abortions do not happen then, when it comes, abortions that do happen then are largely

01:34:49.080 because of medical conditions.

01:34:50.780 And so that is not what we're referring to.

01:34:52.540 They don't happen then, or they do happen then, but it's okay.

01:34:54.580 They do not happen often then.

01:34:56.460 There are like less than 1% of abortions happen.

01:34:58.760 And yet for some reason, states in America, like New York, are changing their laws in a hurry.

01:35:03.840 To permit abortion up until the moment of birth.

01:35:07.020 Abortion does not happen up until the moment of birth.

01:35:09.180 That would be an induction of labor.

01:35:11.840 But if you...

01:35:12.560 But Bronte, they did change the law in New York such that, and they actually changed the

01:35:15.840 penal code such that abortion is permitted in the state of New York up until the moment

01:35:19.360 of birth.

01:35:20.020 That happened.

01:35:20.680 That is a misrepresentation of the law.

01:35:22.400 That's exactly right.

01:35:22.880 But if you want to get...

01:35:24.100 It changed the penal code such that if you kill a pregnant woman, it's no longer double homicide.

01:35:28.420 They could not more clearly point out, they could not more clearly highlight through

01:35:33.340 the statute that abortion is permissible at any point in pregnancy up until the moment

01:35:37.060 of birth.

01:35:37.520 See, it seems that you consistently want to demonize women, and you want to feel as though

01:35:41.860 pregnant...

01:35:42.240 I'm just describing the law in New York.

01:35:43.320 No.

01:35:44.200 But when you describe abortions happening right up until the moment of birth, you are describing

01:35:49.060 someone who has carried this fetus for like, you know, nine months, 40 weeks, whatever

01:35:53.740 it may be, and you are acting as though those people are completely unaware of the situation

01:36:01.560 that they find themselves in.

01:36:02.600 And usually people who are at that point in their pregnancy have decorated the nursery,

01:36:07.200 have picked out a name, have went to prenatal appointments, things like that.

01:36:10.820 And so for you to try to say that women are wanting abortions right up until the moment

01:36:15.400 of birth, you are demonizing them.

01:36:18.040 And you are saying...

01:36:18.480 I'm just describing their behavior.

01:36:20.020 But women aren't doing that.

01:36:21.360 That is not something that happens.

01:36:21.960 It's not something that happens.

01:36:23.760 So then why do they keep changing the law in all of these liberal states?

01:36:26.460 They're changing the law to protect women and protect women's access because there's

01:36:30.520 also a lot of these laws that are trying to criminalize women for things like miscarriages.

01:36:35.900 And so rewriting these laws...

01:36:37.920 All of that is protected, and especially because of the Doe decision.

01:36:42.060 People don't realize that the Roe v. Wade decision was really two cases, Roe and Doe,

01:36:45.880 right?

01:36:46.140 And Doe creates this right that protects women's ability to have abortions for...

01:36:51.960 For psychological reasons, for emotional reasons, practically until the very end.

01:36:58.300 And so that already exists.

01:37:00.600 That was already protected in New York.

01:37:02.300 There was no risk whatsoever in New York that abortion was going to be criminalized,

01:37:08.020 or miscarriages were going to be criminalized, or whatever other propaganda comes out.

01:37:11.500 So if you're telling me that abortions do not happen late term, why would multiple liberal

01:37:19.520 governors and state legislatures change the law to permit abortion up until the moment

01:37:24.720 of birth?

01:37:25.640 I'm not saying that I agree with those laws, but I also believe from what I've read as

01:37:29.940 well that a lot of those...

01:37:31.340 The way that you're describing it is a misrepresentation of the purpose of the law, but I'm also not saying

01:37:35.760 that I personally agree with those laws, if that is what they state.

01:37:38.880 Oh, good.

01:37:39.400 Well, that's good.

01:37:39.840 Why do you disagree with them?

01:37:41.260 Well, because as I've said numerous times, I'm prioritizing the needs of the pregnant person,

01:37:46.140 and 91...

01:37:47.200 But if you're going to prioritize the needs of the pregnant person, surely they should have

01:37:49.820 the greatest window possible to have an abortion, which would be up until the moment of birth,

01:37:55.880 like in New York.

01:37:56.340 I don't believe so, because I believe if you've reached that late term in the pregnancy, then

01:38:02.820 at that point, then the fetus has the ability to be viable and autonomous, and that is when

01:38:11.240 their life can and should be weighed heavier.

01:38:14.760 So post-viability, you think abortion should be illegal?

01:38:17.620 With the exception of medical concerns.

01:38:20.720 Really?

01:38:21.460 Yeah.

01:38:21.600 Well, by medical concerns, do you include, you know, emotional distress, or do you mean

01:38:26.180 real serious medical risks to the mother?

01:38:28.700 I mean, not to discount medical or mental concerns, because those can be serious, but primarily

01:38:34.120 physical.

01:38:34.780 Wow.

01:38:35.060 So you would support a post-viability abortion there?

01:38:38.940 Yes.

01:38:39.500 Great.

01:38:39.920 Oh, that's good.

01:38:40.740 That's progress.

01:38:41.200 With the exception of, you know, medical and protecting medical providers based on certain

01:38:47.320 scenarios.

01:38:47.720 So post-viability.

01:38:49.140 Okay.

01:38:49.260 So then I guess I have to ask, why?

01:38:54.680 Why is viability so important?

01:38:56.960 Why is independence so important?

01:38:59.180 Because, you know, a baby who's born, a newborn baby, can't do a damn thing.

01:39:03.340 You leave the baby outside, or even inside for 72 hours, the kid's going to die, right?

01:39:07.000 Maybe a little bit more.

01:39:08.060 That's functional autonomy versus biological autonomy.

01:39:10.180 Right.

01:39:10.400 But practically, it's the same thing.

01:39:11.580 It's not.

01:39:12.120 Biological and, no, biological autonomy and functional autonomy are two very different

01:39:15.580 things.

01:39:15.880 But they're distinct.

01:39:17.600 Yes.

01:39:17.960 But practically speaking, they're the same thing.

01:39:19.680 Because if you leave the baby, who you say is biologically autonomous, if you leave

01:39:24.280 that baby alone to his autonomous self for, let's say, five days even, that baby is going

01:39:30.960 to die.

01:39:31.460 That baby has no control over himself or his surroundings at all.

01:39:34.920 Because they lack functional autonomy.

01:39:36.760 So it's really a distinction without a difference.

01:39:39.200 No.

01:39:39.480 But the difference is anyone can provide food and shelter to that infant, where only the

01:39:45.840 singular pregnant person can provide the womb for the fetus.

01:39:50.800 Before that.

01:39:51.200 That is where, and you can surrender your parental rights.

01:39:55.960 We cannot force someone to be a parent.

01:39:59.120 They can give up those parental rights.

01:40:01.520 And that is the same thing in pregnancy.

01:40:03.620 Because you cannot force someone to use their body and use their time in a way that they

01:40:09.460 do not agree with.

01:40:10.360 Do you think parents of children who are five years old should be able to just renounce them

01:40:15.940 and say, go away?

01:40:17.520 Renounce their parental obligations?

01:40:19.980 I mean, if they're incapable of providing a safe home.

01:40:23.140 No.

01:40:23.280 What if they're capable and they just don't want to be a parent?

01:40:25.160 It's just their consent.

01:40:25.920 But if they're not mentally willing and capable, then the child will be taken.

01:40:30.000 I'm not saying capable, though.

01:40:31.040 Let's say that they are totally capable.

01:40:33.000 It's some rich lawyer with a nice house in the suburbs, two cars, nice dinner every night.

01:40:38.140 They just don't want to be parents anymore.

01:40:40.180 You think they ought to have the right to renounce their parenthood?

01:40:44.040 That seems like that would be better for the child.

01:40:46.980 I wouldn't want the child to grow up in a home where they're unwanted and resented.

01:40:52.600 So yeah, I think that they should be able to give up their parental rights because

01:40:55.340 that doesn't seem like an appropriate environment for that child.

01:40:58.540 Well, if you're saying child protective services should go in and take the kids away, maybe

01:41:02.420 there's an argument for that.

01:41:03.300 But I guess it's just this right part, because you keep coming down to consent and rights.

01:41:09.100 If you're saying that a parent of sound mind really has the right to abandon his own children,

01:41:16.940 that seems crazy to me.

01:41:18.220 It's prioritizing the wellness of the child.

01:41:20.060 I would never want a child to grow up in a home where they're resented and abused because

01:41:24.820 their parent isn't willing to take care of them.

01:41:28.100 Why should we force a child to stay in that environment?

01:41:31.120 We're not talking about what is prudentially best for the child.

01:41:34.100 I'm really focused on this.

01:41:35.140 That's not what we're prioritizing, the needs of the child?

01:41:37.260 Well, it's just not the topic of discussion.

01:41:39.180 What I'm asking about is the rights.

01:41:41.200 You're saying a parent has a right to renounce his or her child?

01:41:44.960 Again, if it is prioritizing the well-being of the child, I think that the government...

01:41:49.380 What if it's not?

01:41:49.800 What if it's worse for the child?

01:41:51.700 Why would staying in an abusive home where they're...

01:41:54.400 No, it didn't say it's abusive.

01:41:55.360 Why?

01:41:55.680 A neglectful home?

01:41:56.620 I'm not saying it's neglectful.

01:41:57.680 I'm telling you, all things being equal, this guy, this nice guy and his wife, you know,

01:42:03.540 good jobs, good money, nice house.

01:42:06.040 They take care of the kid just fine.

01:42:07.640 They just don't want to do it anymore.

01:42:09.200 And they'll do it if they have to.

01:42:10.860 But they just don't want to.

01:42:12.000 And it'd be a little easier if they could renounce the child.

01:42:13.680 But I'm really focusing on this question of rights because I think that's where the

01:42:17.900 abortion argument really starts to unravel.

01:42:20.320 You're saying they have a right to do that?

01:42:23.380 Again, prioritizing the well-being of the child.

01:42:26.520 If they're in an environment in which they are unwanted, then that is not an appropriate

01:42:30.940 environment for them.

01:42:32.040 And I believe that if a parent is unwilling to care for that child appropriately and...

01:42:37.340 I just think you're not accepting the...

01:42:39.320 No, I just think that you continuously want to ignore the well-being of people that we

01:42:43.360 share society with.

01:42:44.660 Well, I don't want to kill them.

01:42:46.040 Whenever I...

01:42:46.600 Right.

01:42:47.060 And whenever...

01:42:47.640 I don't want to kill them to the tune of 800,000 years.

01:42:48.220 Whenever I bring up the well-being of people, it seems like you're like, that's not the

01:42:52.980 discussion.

01:42:53.420 I want to brush this off.

01:42:54.800 Because that is what I...

01:42:55.080 No, because you keep bringing up rights, too.

01:42:56.940 And then when I focus on rights, you shift to well-being.

01:42:59.740 And then when I focus on well-being, you shift to rights.

01:43:01.660 And so I think you're trying to evade the topic.

01:43:03.040 No, no, because they're intermingled, right?

01:43:05.620 Our rights are...

01:43:07.380 Our rights protect our well-being, and our rights basically have a large effect on our

01:43:12.040 well-being.

01:43:12.480 So they're not two exclusive things.

01:43:14.680 We decide what our rights are depending on the way that they affect our health and our

01:43:19.480 well-being and our mentalities.

01:43:20.960 We decide what our rights are?

01:43:22.880 As a society.

01:43:24.720 So where do you think rights come from?

01:43:27.080 This might help me to understand your view on abortion.

01:43:28.940 Where do you think rights come from?

01:43:29.960 Well, it depends on what kind of rights you're talking about.

01:43:32.540 Because in a society, our government is a system designed to protect our rights.

01:43:38.300 That is the purpose of it.

01:43:40.520 So the government protects our rights.

01:43:42.780 So where do those rights come from?

01:43:45.460 I mean, I think it's a convoluted question.

01:43:47.620 Because essentially, if we were cavemen, we wouldn't necessarily decide that we had rights,

01:43:53.480 right?

01:43:53.500 I don't know.

01:43:54.040 I think cavemen were a lot smarter than we give them credit for.

01:43:56.400 Oh, the only thing we know about cavemen is that they painted on the walls.

01:43:59.000 The only thing we know about cavemen is that they were artists.

01:44:01.340 So I think they probably had a pretty good intuition of these things.

01:44:04.020 Right.

01:44:04.380 But I mean, our rights don't necessarily come from anywhere aside from our own analysis of

01:44:09.920 our human experience.

01:44:11.020 Oh, so then we don't really have any rights at all.

01:44:14.720 The rights that we have decided on based on the analysis of our human experience, we have

01:44:18.660 decided that these are the rights that prioritize the health and well-being of society.

01:44:22.760 And these are the things that we need to protect in order to prioritize the health and well-being

01:44:26.980 of society.

01:44:27.360 So you're saying that my rights are just whatever I say my rights are?

01:44:32.020 No.

01:44:32.380 Our rights are what our society has decided on, on a large spectrum.

01:44:36.220 And there's...

01:44:36.480 Oh, okay.

01:44:36.760 When we look at the...

01:44:37.480 Okay.

01:44:37.600 Well, then our society, on a large spectrum, has just decided that abortion is not a right.

01:44:44.620 And in about half the country now, abortion is severely restricted, if not outright illegal.

01:44:50.060 And so those are our rights.

01:44:51.460 And there's no arguing with it.

01:44:52.320 So again, 61% of Americans, which is the majority...

01:44:54.960 No, I'm talking about the Supreme Court and the legislatures.

01:44:56.740 Right, but that's...

01:44:57.860 That's how our government...

01:44:58.740 Right, and that was stacked...

01:44:59.300 Our government is not conducted by Pew Research.

01:45:00.640 And that was stacked corruptly.

01:45:02.700 How is it stacked corruptly?

01:45:03.820 When I talk about society, when I talk about society, I talk about both society as a general

01:45:10.000 sense, and then society as also the experts as it pertains to that right in particular.

01:45:16.380 So when we talk about 61% of Americans, according to the Pew Research Center, agree with the ability

01:45:24.300 to access abortion in all or most cases, and 95% of OBGYNs said regardless of their personal

01:45:29.600 feelings, they would help a patient access abortion.

01:45:32.460 So that is what I mean by coming to a consensus as a society about what is a right that should

01:45:38.000 be protected.

01:45:38.600 And both society as a whole and the society or the group of experts largely as a whole

01:45:45.580 has decided that this is a right that should be protected.

01:45:48.860 But I think you're ignoring the way that our society is actually governed.

01:45:53.280 The civil authority in our society has decided that there is no right to abortion.

01:45:57.200 That just happened.

01:45:58.100 The Supreme Court just decided that, which is in keeping with the longer jurisprudence throughout

01:46:02.160 the United States and England and elsewhere in civilization.

01:46:04.980 And so that was how the actual civil authority in our society that governs us determined we

01:46:12.200 would live.

01:46:13.280 And so then I would say if that's your understanding of where rights come from, you should accept

01:46:18.300 those rights.

01:46:18.680 But then you respond to that and say, no, that's actually, that doesn't matter what the civil

01:46:22.800 authority says through our self-government because of this one Pew Research Survey and because

01:46:28.220 of the trade organization for the obstetricians.

01:46:30.360 So who is the we and we decide our rights?

01:46:35.180 As I've said, pregnancy is a medical condition and abortion is a medical procedure.

01:46:40.460 And so when I talk about the experts and when I talk about people who should be deciding

01:46:44.580 these things.

01:46:45.000 So our rights come from the experts?

01:46:46.980 It comes from society as a whole in addition to the experts.

01:46:49.700 And society as a whole is typically guided by experts.

01:46:52.280 But society as a whole, well, what represents society as a whole?

01:46:55.700 Is it the civil authority or is it?

01:46:58.020 No, it's not.

01:46:59.180 No, because the government is meant to serve society.

01:47:02.780 And if society decides that something should be protected as a majority.

01:47:06.480 Then they lobby their representatives.

01:47:07.360 And in self-government, the representatives pass new laws and appoint different judges.

01:47:10.760 And the judges make rulings about statutory and constitutional interpretation.

01:47:15.520 And in this case, they've said there's no right to abortion.

01:47:17.700 But as I've said, the legislation is not appropriately representing the needs and desires of the people.

01:47:24.020 How could you say that?

01:47:24.820 Because 61% of Americans believe that abortion should be protected.

01:47:28.060 Oh, so you're saying that the way that the people in our self-government express their

01:47:31.400 will is through a Pew Research survey.

01:47:34.600 Not through our elected representatives at the ballot box on Election Day, but through

01:47:38.540 some survey from this one.

01:47:41.260 No, our desires are represented by surveys.

01:47:44.620 But we have abysmal voter turnout here in the U.S.

01:47:48.160 And so what is represented in our legislation isn't necessarily representing the desires

01:47:54.420 of the people.

01:47:55.000 It should, but it doesn't.

01:47:57.540 So I don't think that our rights come primarily from just what we all sort of agree upon.

01:48:03.760 But even if I did, you realize how absurd this sounds.

01:48:08.240 You're saying that our system of self-government, where we go to the polls and we elect our representatives,

01:48:13.120 they're there to represent us, imperfectly as a fallen world might do, but that's what

01:48:18.760 they do there.

01:48:20.120 You're saying that that is not the way to understand the will of the people.

01:48:27.480 But just like one survey of, who knows, usually these are 1,000 to 2,000 people, that is the

01:48:34.420 expression of the will of the people, even when other surveys contradict it.

01:48:37.420 That seems a little silly, right?

01:48:39.120 If you're saying our rights come not from the civil authority, but from the Pew Research

01:48:42.520 Center, that seems a little silly, doesn't it?

01:48:44.040 No, it is very clear, as of recently, that our representatives are not properly representing

01:48:51.860 the will of the people.

01:48:53.560 And like I said, we have abysmal voter turnout.

01:48:55.940 By the way, who controls the government?

01:48:58.220 In what way?

01:48:59.180 Right now.

01:49:00.080 I mean, money?

01:49:00.540 Who has unified government today?

01:49:02.400 A lot of money controls our government.

01:49:04.620 Which party?

01:49:05.220 Well, I think the Senate is the Democrats, our presidency is a Democrat, and then I believe

01:49:12.880 the House went to the Republicans, or it hasn't been called yet, I haven't.

01:49:16.880 Well, the Republicans will take the House in January, when they're sworn into office.

01:49:21.620 Yes.

01:49:22.000 But today, we have a unified government run by the Democrats.

01:49:25.300 And so when you say that our government is not adequately representing the people, I agree

01:49:28.600 with you entirely.

01:49:29.260 But we also have a filibuster, which is essentially kneecapping our ability to pass proper legislation

01:49:38.160 that is the will of the people.

01:49:39.960 But the representatives of the people agreed to have the filibuster in the first place.

01:49:44.300 Right.

01:49:44.540 And that is a point of contention right now.

01:49:46.880 That should be abolished.

01:49:47.360 Sure.

01:49:47.640 I'm just saying the filibuster itself was an expression of the popular will and the self-guided.

01:49:51.360 But it's not right now, and it should be abolished, according to...

01:49:53.860 Well, they can abolish it if they want to, but it just hasn't been done yet by either party.

01:49:57.080 Correct.

01:49:57.640 Right.

01:49:57.860 Because...

01:49:58.120 Yeah.

01:49:58.580 And I disagree with that.

01:50:00.360 Because the...

01:50:00.380 Sure, you might disagree with it, but the politicians do not abolish it because, presumably, they

01:50:05.560 believe it's in their electoral interest not to abolish it because they are accountable

01:50:09.280 to the voters.

01:50:10.020 And so, regardless of what you think about the filibuster, nevertheless, if you accept the

01:50:14.340 premise of self-government, Republican government at all, that expresses the will of the people.

01:50:18.960 Right?

01:50:19.200 Well, also, we live right now in a binary political system in the United States, which our political

01:50:25.020 spectrum as a whole of society doesn't exist in a binary.

01:50:28.620 Nothing exists in a binary.

01:50:30.260 And so, when we only have one of two options, it's not going to accurately represent the desires

01:50:35.940 of the people, which is a big problem in our political system.

01:50:38.240 Do you call yourself a Democrat?

01:50:39.700 No.

01:50:40.260 You're not.

01:50:40.600 What do you call yourself?

01:50:41.480 I'm more of a leftist.

01:50:43.280 You find the Democrats are a little too weak?

01:50:45.600 Financially, yeah.

01:50:48.240 I don't agree with all the Democrats do, but I believe it was Obama who said that voting

01:50:53.200 is not marriage.

01:50:54.960 It is public transportation.

01:50:57.280 You aren't going to find the one, but you take the one that is getting you closest to

01:51:01.200 your desired destination.

01:51:02.420 And for me, that is the Democrats in our binary system.

01:51:04.480 But you're not a liberal.

01:51:05.220 You're a leftist.

01:51:06.020 I'm a leftist, yeah.

01:51:07.400 You're a feminist.

01:51:08.600 Yes.

01:51:10.080 You know, I find myself, I don't know, maybe I'm going crazy in my old age, but I find myself

01:51:15.100 agreeing with the radical feminists more and more than I do with the leftists.

01:51:19.560 Or I'm sorry, more and more than I do with the liberals.

01:51:21.320 Okay.

01:51:21.920 Elaborate on that for me.

01:51:22.640 Well, there was a great clip that was going around of Catherine McKinnon.

01:51:25.740 Are you familiar with her?

01:51:26.640 No, I don't think so.

01:51:27.420 Catherine McKinnon, wonderful, great radical feminist.

01:51:30.500 And it was her debating some conservative over porn.

01:51:35.080 And she made this point.

01:51:36.900 She said, you know, you conservatives, some of you conservatives are tolerant of porn.

01:51:41.940 You think porn is no big deal.

01:51:43.500 And obviously, since the internet, it's exploded everywhere and it's caused a lot of problems.

01:51:47.520 And she says, but, you know, imagine if you were in your apartment and you heard some guy

01:51:51.540 knocking a woman around, every single wall, abusing some woman.

01:51:55.560 And what would you do?

01:51:56.760 I hope you'd go over to the apartment, try to stop it.

01:51:58.920 I hope you'd call the cops.

01:51:59.920 But that's what you're doing when you're watching porn.

01:52:02.300 And this weak conservative, he said, well, you know, but people have a right to look at

01:52:06.540 whatever smut they want.

01:52:07.700 And she said, what are you talking about?

01:52:09.520 You know, that's completely insane.

01:52:10.760 And the conservative said to her, well, well, don't you agree with that?

01:52:15.240 All these free principles of just watching whatever you want.

01:52:18.040 She said, no, because I'm not a liberal.

01:52:20.640 I'm a feminist.

01:52:21.500 I'm not a liberal.

01:52:22.200 I thought, oh, I guess maybe I'm a feminist too.

01:52:23.980 Who knew?

01:52:24.940 Yeah.

01:52:26.220 I mean.

01:52:26.680 Or would you describe yourself as, she called herself sex negative.

01:52:31.040 You know, that's the kind of anti-porn feminists.

01:52:33.000 Are you the anti-porn feminist or the pro-porn feminist?

01:52:35.220 Yeah, because largely our, the pornographic industry is a huge issue as far as perpetuating

01:52:42.600 and supporting sex trafficking.

01:52:44.960 Yeah.

01:52:45.140 And human trafficking.

01:52:46.200 Yeah, yeah.

01:52:46.440 And so, no, yeah, I'm not a supporter of the porn industry as a whole.

01:52:50.200 Now, as far as like sexual.

01:52:51.900 I knew we'd agree on something.

01:52:52.700 Yeah, and as far as like sexual liberation and the ability to, you know, consciously

01:52:57.400 and responsibly consume porn, I'm not necessarily opposed to that.

01:53:01.760 But the large porn industry as a whole, as it supports sex trafficking and is largely unregulated,

01:53:08.120 I am, yeah.

01:53:09.400 And is it only the trafficking that bothers you or is it?

01:53:13.200 The women who are involved in porn come from bad backgrounds almost all the time and usually

01:53:18.960 neglectful and abusive backgrounds and they're very vulnerable.

01:53:22.700 And they're completely exploited and they're paid pennies and they're treated literally

01:53:27.760 like meat.

01:53:28.560 And then they're thrown out two years later.

01:53:30.420 And it's just the whole thing's so ghastly.

01:53:31.980 Right.

01:53:32.120 And it's not, that's not a matter of trafficking exactly, but it's still an exploitation.

01:53:37.240 Yeah, I agree.

01:53:37.700 You're opposed to that.

01:53:38.280 But then you, then you just said that you don't mind people watching porn in certain circumstances.

01:53:43.680 Right.

01:53:43.860 If, if the industry was better regulated, people were paid living wages, there wasn't this

01:53:48.640 whole situation where people feel, you know, pressured or forced into that industry based

01:53:53.260 off of certain life experiences or certain, certain circumstances.

01:53:56.520 It's 100% of the time.

01:53:57.640 Right.

01:53:58.180 Well, not, not necessarily 100%.

01:53:59.880 I do feel like people can consensually and responsibly, you know, participate.

01:54:05.560 Like meat.

01:54:05.960 I mean, that's not necessarily what happens.

01:54:08.700 Like, I see, and I think that that is sort of dehumanizing and I think that-

01:54:11.860 It is dehumanizing.

01:54:12.600 Right.

01:54:12.980 But that's also removing the consent aspect because there are a lot of people who do do

01:54:17.460 sex work responsibly and they do so of their own volition.

01:54:21.160 So you, so before you were sounding sex negative, like the radical feminists, now you're sounding

01:54:26.580 sex positive, like the liberals.

01:54:29.300 Well, I am sex positive, but I mean, it depends.

01:54:31.960 All right, nevermind.

01:54:32.660 I thought we agreed on one thing finally.

01:54:34.000 I mean, we agree that we both do not like the porn industry as a whole.

01:54:38.540 But you wouldn't, would you ban it?

01:54:40.820 The porn industry?

01:54:42.100 Yeah.

01:54:43.160 I mean, frankly, according to the law, it already sort of is largely banned.

01:54:46.680 It's just a few court decisions kind of screwed that up.

01:54:49.380 Yeah.

01:54:49.840 I mean, I think that things like OnlyFans should stay legal when they are run.

01:54:54.600 I think that if it is run by the worker themselves and it is they're deciding to do something of

01:54:59.760 their own volition, then I'm not necessarily opposed to that.

01:55:02.420 But I do think that the porn industry should be banned or regulated as a, you know, as a

01:55:07.980 whole.

01:55:08.280 Well, that's good.

01:55:09.040 So people should not be permitted to look at Pornhub, for instance.

01:55:12.860 That's what you're saying.

01:55:13.340 Yeah.

01:55:13.520 I think Pornhub should be shut down because a lot of it is, you know, unregulated and kind

01:55:18.500 of, there's a lot of things on there too that perpetuate abuse, that perpetuate, you

01:55:23.520 know, radicalist ideas of, you know, objectifying women.

01:55:26.500 And so that, yeah, definitely not.

01:55:30.060 So does that not undercut a little bit of your argument about bodily autonomy and doing

01:55:35.680 what you want, you know, in your own bedroom with the blinds closed?

01:55:39.620 I mean, if a guy wants to go into his bedroom and pull up some disgusting pornography and

01:55:46.100 do whatever with his own body, you know, sex with someone you love as Woody Allen described

01:55:50.780 it, is that not a matter of his personal bodily autonomy that he allegedly has a right to?

01:55:57.980 I believe he has the right to do that.

01:55:59.320 But like I said, it doesn't have to be.

01:56:00.600 Oh, you do?

01:56:00.940 It doesn't have to be done through Pornhub.

01:56:02.980 There are responsible and worker-run, you know.

01:56:06.240 But what if he really likes Pornhub?

01:56:08.000 What if that's his favorite one?

01:56:09.920 Well, we don't have to protect his right to access Pornhub.

01:56:12.540 No, I don't believe we should.

01:56:13.780 No.

01:56:14.260 That's good.

01:56:14.780 All right.

01:56:15.080 That's something.

01:56:15.740 But OnlyFans, you think, is okay?

01:56:17.920 Yeah.

01:56:18.160 I think OnlyFans is okay because, like I said, it is run by the workers themselves and

01:56:22.120 they aren't exploited by an industry and they aren't forced into certain things.

01:56:25.700 Don't you think that pornography intrinsically is exploitative and degrading?

01:56:32.640 I guess that's my problem with it.

01:56:34.300 There are other problems, too.

01:56:35.440 I mean...

01:56:35.660 It's not just the consent is what I'm saying.

01:56:37.460 Because you seem to think that the only moral criterion that matters is consent.

01:56:42.940 If you consent to do it, then it's fine and dandy.

01:56:45.480 But I think there are plenty of things that you can consent to do that are not good and

01:56:50.320 are degrading and feed your basest passions and enslave you and should be illegal and are

01:56:56.580 illegal even today in some cases.

01:56:59.560 Yeah.

01:56:59.820 Elaborate on that.

01:57:00.940 Well, like drugs would be an example, right?

01:57:03.160 I don't think you have a right to do drugs.

01:57:04.640 But I don't think you have a right to do all sorts of things, you know?

01:57:07.700 I don't think people should have a right to cheat on their wives.

01:57:09.760 Maybe a married man consents to sleep with his secretary or something, and the secretary

01:57:15.620 consents.

01:57:16.220 I think that should be illegal.

01:57:17.700 And it was illegal for a lot of American history.

01:57:19.820 I don't think you would have a right to that.

01:57:21.060 I don't think that if you are under the delusion, if you're a man and you're under the delusion

01:57:26.000 that you're a woman, that you have a right to chop your healthy genitals off any more

01:57:29.800 than you would have a right to walk into a doctor's office and say, Doc, I identify as

01:57:33.620 a quadriplegic.

01:57:34.820 And the doc says, man, you've got problems.

01:57:37.620 You know, you need to go see a psychologist.

01:57:39.680 You know, I'm not going to chop your limbs off.

01:57:41.720 But then that same man walks into a doctor's office.

01:57:43.720 He says, Doc, I'm a woman.

01:57:45.380 And that doc says, wow, oh my gosh, that's so brave and wonderful.

01:57:48.900 You're a stunning, beautiful woman.

01:57:50.780 Let's get you onto the operating table and cut off the family jewels.

01:57:53.760 That seems to me preposterous.

01:57:55.160 I don't think anyone has a right to that.

01:57:56.560 I guess, ultimately, I'm saying, I don't think you have a right to wrong.

01:58:01.480 Well, what we define as wrong is different between you and I.

01:58:05.760 Because I do agree in providing gender-affirming care to people.

01:58:10.520 Because when you are in a body that doesn't feel right to you and you do not identify as

01:58:16.060 the gender that people perceive you as, that can have psychological consequences.

01:58:20.560 And again, when we look at medical experts who study this and provide this care, they

01:58:25.220 agree that gender-affirming care is essential in order to prioritize the needs of these patients.

01:58:30.820 What about Dr. Paul McHugh?

01:58:32.740 I don't know.

01:58:33.440 So Dr. Paul McHugh is a doctor at Johns Hopkins and was the pioneer of the gender transition

01:58:40.500 surgery and was the head of their gender clinic.

01:58:43.520 And so he pioneered the whole thing.

01:58:45.700 Then he found after a few years that it wasn't improving psychological outcomes.

01:58:50.160 He didn't find that it was damaging psychological outcomes in most cases, but it just wasn't

01:58:54.280 really doing anything.

01:58:55.780 And it wasn't helping.

01:58:56.840 And so if it wasn't helping, he shut it down.

01:58:59.480 And so he's not only one figure in the transgender care medical community, whatever.

01:59:05.820 I mean, he's a preeminent figure in it.

01:59:08.260 And he says that it's awful and we should stop the surgeries.

01:59:10.920 So does his expert opinion color your views at all?

01:59:15.000 No.

01:59:15.300 So in medicine, we are taught something called paternalism is something that we should avoid.

01:59:20.180 And paternalism is essentially putting your own personal views into the health care of other

01:59:24.760 people.

01:59:25.180 So if you believe that a patient is going to regret this decision, then you are going

01:59:30.300 to prohibit their access to this.

01:59:33.040 And as medical practitioners, as physicians, we are taught to avoid paternalism.

01:59:38.200 And acting paternalistically is unethical.

01:59:40.800 So that's an interesting use of the word paternalism.

01:59:42.940 So by that, you mean just having opinions and acting on them?

01:59:48.020 No.

01:59:48.540 No.

01:59:48.700 It is a specific terminology in medical ethics.

01:59:51.420 It is not prohibiting your patient's access to medical care based off of—

01:59:55.560 But you would give advice.

01:59:56.700 Right.

01:59:57.140 You would say, I don't think you should chop your genitals off, or I don't think you should

01:59:59.280 have an abortion.

01:59:59.880 See, and that is putting your personal opinion that is unrelated to medical studies and unrelated

02:00:06.740 to proper psychological practices.

02:00:08.400 Why would you hold a personal opinion that is completely out of step with reality?

02:00:13.440 Would you?

02:00:13.800 I mean, I just fail to understand this distinction between a personal opinion and, say, a public

02:00:19.760 opinion.

02:00:20.120 A professional opinion.

02:00:20.720 A professional opinion.

02:00:21.100 A professional opinion.

02:00:21.620 Yeah.

02:00:21.860 I just don't see—if they disagree, the professional opinion that you're supposed to hold and your

02:00:28.940 personal opinion, and if they're contradictory, only one of them can be true.

02:00:33.620 So if the professional opinion is true, then why do you hold your mistaken personal opinion?

02:00:40.100 And if your personal opinion is true, then why would you give a damn what some lunatic

02:00:44.240 who's telling you to perform a lobotomy has to say?

02:00:47.120 So when it comes to medical practice, your personal opinion is colored by your own personal

02:00:53.780 experience, where your professional opinion is influenced by evidence and training.

02:00:58.780 And when—

02:00:59.000 But is your personal opinion not influenced by your faculties of reason and your moral

02:01:03.300 conscience and your ability to perceive reality?

02:01:05.680 True, but my moral conscience and my ability to perceive reality is based off of my own

02:01:10.460 personal reality, and my personal reality differs from someone else's.

02:01:14.720 Well, hold on.

02:01:15.500 I thought—I thought the purpose of reason and perception is to ascertain objective reality.

02:01:23.740 It's not like the imagination, where you're just concocting your own fantasies, right?

02:01:27.800 So what you're telling me, then, is that your faculties of reason and moral conscience are

02:01:32.000 not reliable, and they can have nothing to say about objective reality, so then I have

02:01:36.700 to ask, why should I care what you think about anything?

02:01:40.240 Well, it depends on what you're asking me my opinion on.

02:01:42.820 Because, again, there's a difference between personal and professional opinions.

02:01:45.680 Because when professional opinions, especially in medical practice, are colored by statistics

02:01:51.020 and training, that is going to supersede my personal opinion when it comes to offering someone

02:01:56.720 medical advice.

02:01:57.640 So are you saying you simultaneously hold two opinions at the same time, or are you saying

02:02:02.600 that you just defer to the board of obstetricians on every question?

02:02:09.680 I'm saying that I understand, as a medical professional, that I need to avoid paternalism.

02:02:14.620 And that although my personal opinion, and my personal experience, and my perception of

02:02:21.060 life based off of my own worldview isn't going to be completely accurate when it comes to

02:02:28.080 the life experience of a patient sitting in my exam room.

02:02:31.540 So what if it's 1950, you've just graduated medical school, you're doing your residency,

02:02:37.960 and the fancy people in the lab coats say, all right, Bronte, here's your first assignment,

02:02:44.000 you're going to perform a lobotomy on this crazy lady.

02:02:46.940 And the crazy lady comes in, and you say, you know, I think it's probably a bad idea to

02:02:50.620 perform this lobotomy.

02:02:51.580 I think scrambling up poor women's brains is not good.

02:02:55.840 But the consensus medical opinion, the professional opinion, disagrees with my personal opinion

02:03:01.060 here.

02:03:01.720 Would you just put your personal opinion and your own view from your reason and your conscience

02:03:05.560 aside and scramble up the poor woman's brains?

02:03:07.700 So does the woman, is she wanting this procedure?

02:03:11.020 Well, she's a bit crazy, isn't she?

02:03:12.400 But maybe she says she wants it.

02:03:14.480 Maybe one day she says she wants it.

02:03:15.740 Another day she says she doesn't want it.

02:03:17.120 I mean, with any kind of psychological treatment, there is a lot of ambiguity.

02:03:21.500 So in this sort of situation...

02:03:23.200 But let's say that she does want it.

02:03:24.460 So in this situation, we have the privilege of, you know, perspective, right?

02:03:29.500 We, in the 1950s, you don't have the privilege of that kind of perspective.

02:03:33.360 So we understand that, you know, medically, lobotomies are not appropriate.

02:03:38.600 But in the 50s, we are working with the evidence that we have at the time.

02:03:42.880 And if the patient is wanting the procedure, and the evidence and studies at the time support

02:03:48.040 that procedure, then sure, you would move forward.

02:03:50.120 You would perform the lobotomy, even if your faculties have...

02:03:52.940 Because it was controversial at the time.

02:03:54.560 Right.

02:03:54.760 Just as abortion and transgender surgery are controversial now.

02:03:57.640 And so you're saying, even if you...

02:03:58.960 Because it's not only that we learned in foresight, you know, or rather in retrospectively.

02:04:04.020 Oh, gosh, can you imagine we did these lobotomies?

02:04:06.440 Wow, everyone agreed to do them.

02:04:07.900 And then all of a sudden, we all realized it was wrong.

02:04:10.140 No, it was very controversial at the time.

02:04:12.140 But the lab coat people said, go do them.

02:04:15.040 So I think the analogy is quite apt to abortion and to transgenderism.

02:04:19.080 And let's say, you know...

02:04:20.600 I disagree with you.

02:04:21.760 Well, let's just go to the lobotomy thing then.

02:04:23.460 You know, at the time, as did many, many people in the medical profession, that lobotomies

02:04:28.420 are really spooky and weird and not good, and you really disagree with it.

02:04:33.040 But you're there.

02:04:34.380 There's the patient.

02:04:35.480 The docs are telling you to perform the lobotomy.

02:04:38.360 Do you really put your own moral conscience aside and your own rational thought aside,

02:04:42.840 and you just do what the doctors tell you to do?

02:04:45.340 I mean, not necessarily, no.

02:04:46.900 Oh, okay, good.

02:04:47.760 Right.

02:04:48.140 And I also don't believe that lobotomies are, you know, analogous to gender-affirming care.

02:04:53.760 And when we are talking about...

02:04:55.520 Because gender-affirming care is not necessarily controversial in the medical field.

02:05:00.660 Where lobotomies...

02:05:01.600 Well, the guy who invented it says that it's terrible.

02:05:03.560 No, as you said, it might not have improved their mental state, but it also didn't necessarily

02:05:09.700 damage it.

02:05:10.300 I mean, he shut the whole thing down.

02:05:11.540 Yeah.

02:05:11.820 He shut the whole thing down.

02:05:12.120 Him personally.

02:05:13.280 Yeah.

02:05:13.480 But on the whole...

02:05:15.180 He campaigns against it.

02:05:17.120 As do some of them.

02:05:17.880 It's convenient that you choose this one person who campaigns against it.

02:05:21.040 Well, he happens to be the pioneer of it.

02:05:22.760 Well, he might have been one of the first to do it.

02:05:24.460 But in the medical field, it is shown that providing gender-affirming care is beneficial

02:05:30.040 to the patients when done with evidence-based medicine and appropriately.

02:05:34.100 In the medical field, it was shown that lobotomies were really good for crazy ladies.

02:05:38.240 And it was shown with evidence and studies and papers and very serious men in horn-rimmed glasses

02:05:43.060 and lab coats.

02:05:44.200 See, and I just feel like this line of questioning is inherently transphobic.

02:05:49.260 And when you act as though people who have gender dysphoria or body dysmorphia or whatever

02:05:54.940 it may be, when you act as though their situation is equivalent to someone in the 50s needing

02:06:01.260 or wanting a lobotomy, you are perpetuating this idea that their life experience and their

02:06:07.880 opinions about their own bodies is inappropriate and wrong.

02:06:11.120 Bronte, I just think your attacks on lobotomies are extraordinarily misogynistic, first of

02:06:16.140 all.

02:06:16.580 And I think they deny the science and the scientific consensus.

02:06:19.860 And they're frankly ignorant because all of the educated people with all the power, they

02:06:24.180 say that lobotomies are really, really good.

02:06:26.360 And they're for women.

02:06:27.200 And they're to make women feel better.

02:06:28.760 These poor women are dealing with anxiety.

02:06:31.320 Hysteria, actually, is what we would have called it then.

02:06:34.120 And you're denying them care that will ease their suffering.

02:06:37.880 And I just think it's really awful.

02:06:38.960 I didn't say that I would deny them that care.

02:06:41.100 If the patient is consenting to this procedure and the evidence and the consensus of the medical

02:06:48.540 field as a whole is supporting this kind of procedure, then I would go forward with it.

02:06:54.240 So you would perform the lobotomy?

02:06:55.940 I'm not going to say that I would perform the lobotomy.

02:06:57.360 You just said you would perform the lobotomy.

02:06:58.760 I would perform a procedure.

02:07:00.040 Previously, you said you wouldn't.

02:07:01.020 And then before that, you said you would.

02:07:02.260 I would perform a procedure if the evidence supported it and the patient consented to it.

02:07:06.340 That is it.

02:07:08.480 And in the 1950s, the evidence supported lobotomies.

02:07:12.120 I don't know enough about lobotomies in the 50s in order to give you an accurate response

02:07:16.340 to that question.

02:07:16.820 So it seems to me that your deferral away from moral conscience, your admission that your

02:07:28.200 moral conscience and your faculties of reason are purely subjective, solipsistic even, they

02:07:33.020 only pertain to your own body and your own possibly deluded view of the world.

02:07:37.500 And so that's why you have to defer to the experts and the people in the lab coats.

02:07:44.420 And those people are the ones who have the ability to make our rights anyway.

02:07:48.740 Our rights, in fact, come from the Academy of Obstetricians or whatever.

02:07:52.480 And because of all of that, if the medical science supported it and if the patient consented

02:07:57.500 to it, you would perform the lobotomy.

02:07:59.880 You would perform the gender-affirming surgery on the men who think that they're women.

02:08:04.780 And you would perform the abortion.

02:08:07.660 I just say humbly and respectfully, Bronte, it should give you pause if you're on the

02:08:13.040 side of the lobotomies.

02:08:15.000 I am on the side of gender-affirming care and reproductive health care.

02:08:19.120 Yeah.

02:08:19.900 And lobotomies.

02:08:20.820 Not necessarily lobotomies, no, because those aren't analogous to gender-affirming care.

02:08:24.980 If you want to, because it seems like you are intent to use manipulative and emotional

02:08:29.880 language in order to, no.

02:08:31.140 Just using plain arguments.

02:08:31.560 Because if you need to refer to lobotomies in order to make your point, then that means—

02:08:37.320 My point is that the scientists often get things dramatically, including in the medical

02:08:41.160 field.

02:08:41.320 We should be able to have a conversation about gender-affirming care and abortion without

02:08:46.120 bringing in a controversial procedure from the 50s.

02:08:49.100 But we have to.

02:08:50.040 No, we don't have to.

02:08:51.080 No, but here's why we have to.

02:08:52.180 No, if you're not able to just discuss gender-affirming care and just discuss abortion without bringing

02:08:58.220 in, you know, manipulative language and outdated procedures, then you're not able to appropriately

02:09:03.560 discuss this topic and these procedures.

02:09:05.440 Because your defense of, well, now transgenderism but also abortion is based on the authority

02:09:11.600 of the—and the credibility of the medical authorities.

02:09:15.260 And so I have to demonstrate to you that those medical authorities don't have all that

02:09:21.560 much credibility, especially on sort of bizarre and controversial matters, because historically

02:09:26.980 they don't have a great track record.

02:09:28.400 And that's why I'm going into the not-too-distant past, by the way.

02:09:30.580 It's not like I'm going back to leeches and bleedings and all sorts of bizarre medical

02:09:36.320 practices that were accepted by the experts for all of human history.

02:09:39.300 I'm going back to a very, very recent example and showing you that those experts in the lab

02:09:44.000 coats that you are deferring to, even for the question of rights itself, are very frequently

02:09:49.400 wrong.

02:09:50.420 But in this case, we have shown that gender-affirming care is beneficial to patients who have gender

02:09:56.820 dysphoria.

02:09:57.520 We haven't, though.

02:09:58.200 We have.

02:09:58.500 The pioneer of the surgery says it isn't.

02:10:00.000 Currently, with the evidence that we have right now, we are showing that it is medically

02:10:04.860 responsible to provide patients with all the information and all of the access to health

02:10:09.980 care that can benefit them in their medical care.

02:10:12.740 And so that is the topic at hand, is it not?

02:10:15.160 Is it not discussing people who exist in a body that they don't feel comfortable in?

02:10:19.620 And modern medicine has the ability to help them address that issue.

02:10:23.880 Bronte, when you say exist in a body, or you say they find themselves in a body, who do

02:10:30.280 you think they are?

02:10:32.500 What does that mean, exist in a body?

02:10:35.220 Our fellow citizens that we share this society with.

02:10:38.140 But who is...

02:10:39.540 You're saying that they are distinct from their body.

02:10:42.860 Yes.

02:10:43.220 So you are not your body?

02:10:47.040 No.

02:10:48.140 What are you?

02:10:48.800 I believe that I'm a soul with a body.

02:10:51.480 But you are the soul.

02:10:53.320 Mm-hmm.

02:10:53.960 And your body is just a...

02:10:55.700 It's the physical manifestation.

02:10:56.720 Your body is a costume.

02:10:58.360 Oh, the body is the physical manifestation.

02:11:00.280 That's different.

02:11:00.880 Mm-hmm.

02:11:01.640 Well, I agree with that.

02:11:02.520 I think that the body is a symbol of the soul.

02:11:04.780 Mm-hmm.

02:11:05.000 I think that the soul is a substantial form of the body.

02:11:08.060 We agree on that.

02:11:09.320 But then that means that the soul and the body are linked.

02:11:12.180 Right, but they're not the same.

02:11:13.800 But they're linked inextricably.

02:11:15.080 If you agree, as we just said, that the body is actually a symbol of the soul, then you

02:11:19.620 don't just go about trading out the body.

02:11:21.680 The body is not something merely to be discarded.

02:11:23.500 The body is, in fact, part of you.

02:11:25.080 To say, I have a body, is an incoherent statement, according to what you've just agreed to.

02:11:30.000 Because you would say, I am a body, and I am a soul, and I'm this...

02:11:33.600 The technical term for it is hylomorphic being, that is, body and soul, inextricably linked

02:11:39.120 on this earth.

02:11:40.580 Right, but that doesn't mean that my mentality and my soul is accurately represented by the

02:11:46.960 body that I present to the world.

02:11:48.620 So if you find a discrepancy between your metaphysical perception of yourself and the

02:11:52.340 physical representation, which you acknowledge is tied inextricably to your soul, why do you

02:11:58.080 have to mutilate the body?

02:12:00.280 Wouldn't it be a little easier just to change your mind and recognize that your perception

02:12:03.720 of yourself is a little bit wrong?

02:12:05.560 If you're a woman, I think, you're very clearly a woman, and if you said one day, I'm a man,

02:12:12.480 well, rather than my saying, oh, well, good, go chop your body up, shouldn't I just say,

02:12:15.600 no, you're not, you're a woman, and you're just misperceiving yourself, or misconceiving

02:12:21.280 yourself, and you need to get your mind right?

02:12:23.960 Well, then you would be denying what I am telling you is my life experience.

02:12:29.120 Right, because you would be wrong.

02:12:30.500 According to you, but you can't tell someone that their life experience is wrong.

02:12:35.340 No, I can tell people that their statements about reality are wrong.

02:12:39.440 So why do you see the world in such a binary?

02:12:42.400 Why do you think that we are men and women, and there is no spectrum in between?

02:12:47.400 Oh, well, because I have eyes and reason.

02:12:50.780 So I can see you're a woman.

02:12:52.220 All evidence shows that you're a woman.

02:12:56.220 What makes me a woman?

02:12:57.420 Well, I haven't, you know, I'm a married man, so I don't have too much.

02:13:01.960 What would, in abstract, what would you quantify sex to you?

02:13:07.820 Well, it would be, it would involve your bodily features.

02:13:13.520 It would involve your chromosomes.

02:13:15.740 It would involve your soul.

02:13:18.780 It would involve, it would mean that you're not a man.

02:13:23.020 It would mean that you're complementary to a man and not identical with a man.

02:13:27.420 So are you aware that, medically, your genitalia, your hormones, and your chromosomes do not

02:13:34.580 always align with a particular sex?

02:13:36.880 There are multiple medical conditions in which your chromosomes, your hormones, and your

02:13:41.240 genitalia do not match and do not fit into this binary.

02:13:44.960 Yeah, there could be ambiguity, of course.

02:13:46.820 Right, and so what I'm saying is, naturally, sex is on a spectrum.

02:13:52.160 No.

02:13:52.480 And yes, yes, it is.

02:13:54.460 Well, there's such a thing as a liger.

02:13:56.600 Are you familiar with a liger?

02:13:58.400 Like a lion-tiger?

02:13:59.640 It's a hybrid of a lion and a tiger.

02:14:01.800 Yeah.

02:14:02.420 But if we say that there are some ligers, not very many, but there are some ligers, this

02:14:07.380 would not deny that there is a categorical distinction between lions and tigers.

02:14:12.920 And the same thing would be true, you mentioned a chromosomal abnormality.

02:14:15.960 Let's say Turner syndrome.

02:14:17.680 Turner syndrome is where you have one X chromosome, right?

02:14:20.040 Not an XY, not an XX, you have one X.

02:14:22.540 Well, why don't we talk about Klinefelter then?

02:14:25.000 Sure.

02:14:25.220 Because that's when you have, I think, two Xs and a Y.

02:14:27.740 Yeah, sure, sure.

02:14:28.700 I mean, you could talk about any of these chromosomal or genital abnormalities.

02:14:32.320 There can be certain ambiguities.

02:14:35.440 But in that expression, it's pretty easy to categorize.

02:14:40.040 I mean, I mentioned Turner syndrome because it's so easy to categorize people who have

02:14:43.740 Turner syndrome as women.

02:14:46.280 But in the others, too, even when there's more ambiguity, you can categorize these things.

02:14:51.060 And so then we talk about this distinction between sex and gender.

02:14:56.000 And people say, well, sex and gender are different.

02:14:58.100 So you might be a woman, but your gender, by which people really, I think, mean your soul,

02:15:02.080 I think you're using the more precise language there.

02:15:04.760 Your soul might be the soul of a man, say, or something like that.

02:15:07.800 But I just don't see how that would be true if your soul and body really are linked.

02:15:12.140 And also, if it were true, then why is it that we would say that you then have a right

02:15:16.500 to mutilate your body?

02:15:17.620 Wouldn't we then say you have an obligation to express your gender in accordance with your

02:15:21.460 sex?

02:15:22.240 Well, body modification is an entire industry.

02:15:25.660 I can get tattoos.

02:15:26.960 I can get permanent scars.

02:15:27.640 Porn and drugs are the industries, too, yeah.

02:15:29.620 Yeah, but that's not the same.

02:15:31.580 Porn and drugs is not the same as gender-affirming care.

02:15:34.760 And it seems like you, when consistently—

02:15:36.180 They're not the same, but they're all bad.

02:15:37.920 I mean, to you.

02:15:39.420 But drugs, sure.

02:15:41.040 Like, porn and drugs obviously have—like, that is a negative industry.

02:15:45.860 But when you compare them to something like gender-affirming care, you are coloring gender-affirming

02:15:50.280 care in a negative light.

02:15:51.040 I'm just saying that the sex surgeries where you chop off the boy's, you know, family jewels,

02:15:57.680 that that's also bad.

02:15:58.600 See, and where I stand on it is I think that acceptance and tolerance and respect for people

02:16:05.540 who are different from you is inherent in being a compassionate, moral being.

02:16:10.740 And I don't believe that I get to tell someone that they are wrong based off of my interpretation

02:16:16.560 of their life experience.

02:16:17.940 Right.

02:16:18.320 So to get us back, I think, to the top, I sincerely believe that abortion is evil because it is,

02:16:27.460 as you describe, ending the life of a human being.

02:16:31.320 And so that's what I believe.

02:16:34.380 And I sincerely believe that abortion should be illegal throughout the United States.

02:16:39.540 And I really would just request that you not impose your liberal beliefs on me and force

02:16:45.700 me to surrender my political views in a self-government, for goodness sakes, and force me to live in

02:16:52.960 a society where women are permitted to kill their children.

02:16:56.260 I would just ask you to respect and include and be welcoming and tolerant of my views and

02:17:03.020 identity, my identity as the correct person in this debate.

02:17:05.520 So I respect your opinion as it pertains to your body and your life.

02:17:09.160 That is the entire point of being pro-choice, is I am not saying that you or your wife or

02:17:14.500 whoever should get an abortion.

02:17:16.400 I'm not forcing you to get an abortion.

02:17:17.740 I will never get an abortion.

02:17:18.620 Right.

02:17:19.180 Very clearly.

02:17:19.980 And being pro-choice means that I respect everyone's ability to decide what is best

02:17:27.500 for their body and for their life.

02:17:29.780 It is their body and their life.

02:17:33.960 And whether physically, financially, or mentally, they are incapable or unwilling to endure pregnancy

02:17:39.040 and labor.

02:17:39.840 And I hope every pregnant person who's watching this can try to understand if they had to endure

02:17:44.920 that, unwanted and unsupported, how terrifying and traumatizing that would be.

02:17:50.560 And you consistently center the fetus.

02:17:53.380 And I just want to say that I consistently center the pregnant person.

02:17:57.200 I respect women.

02:17:58.280 I think I center them both.

02:17:59.340 I respect women and their ability and their knowledge about their own body and their own

02:18:03.540 lives.

02:18:04.000 And I want to protect their right to access health care.

02:18:07.080 What if they believe that their baby is not a, that the fetus is not a human being?

02:18:12.800 You respect that belief?

02:18:13.860 I mean, well, that would be medically inaccurate.

02:18:16.840 So you don't respect their knowledge?

02:18:18.780 I mean, I respect their belief, but it doesn't make it correct.

02:18:22.240 You respect mistaken beliefs?

02:18:24.880 Incorrect beliefs?

02:18:25.800 I mean, if it doesn't impose on my ability to access health care and it doesn't reflect

02:18:29.640 my life individually, then they can think whatever they want.

02:18:33.480 But you respect it?

02:18:35.060 I respect their right to have that opinion.

02:18:38.540 But just not to act on it in public?

02:18:40.920 I mean, I don't understand what you mean by that.

02:18:44.640 Well, you're saying you respect these views that are wrong.

02:18:47.400 But we live in a self-government, right?

02:18:49.440 We live in a republic.

02:18:50.380 So the government that we get, at least in theory, is going to reflect what people believe.

02:18:54.940 And so what you keep coming back to in these questions of transgenderism and in questions

02:19:00.900 of people mistakenly believing that the human in their body is not a human being, you keep

02:19:05.280 saying, well, I just respect your wrong, you're entitled to your wrong beliefs.

02:19:08.020 But, you know, those wrong beliefs in a self-government end up becoming law.

02:19:10.960 But they must be evidence-based and medically accurate and medically appropriate.

02:19:16.040 Oh, so you only respect the beliefs if they're medically accurate.

02:19:18.680 But you just said you respected the woman's belief even though it wasn't accurate.

02:19:21.040 I respect her right to have that belief.

02:19:23.920 She can have that belief if she chooses to have that belief.

02:19:26.380 As long as there's no consequence of it in society.

02:19:28.000 Right.

02:19:28.320 But ideas do have consequences.

02:19:30.140 I mean, it depends.

02:19:30.920 Yeah, exactly.

02:19:31.580 Like, your ideas that you're pushing on your show do have dire consequences for pregnant

02:19:35.920 people, as the University of Colorado showed, banning abortion can increase maternal mortality

02:19:40.620 by 24%.

02:19:41.620 And so pushing these medically inaccurate and emotionally manipulative views on your show

02:19:46.620 and many others, they do have impacts on living, breathing people.

02:19:51.060 And they will lead to more harm and more suffering of people's mothers, daughters, sisters, of women

02:19:56.320 in our society.

02:19:57.840 Well, you know, because I'm a gentleman, I obviously disagree with everything you just said.

02:20:01.920 But since I'm a gentleman, I'll give you the last word, Bronte.

02:20:04.600 And I will leave it there.

02:20:06.460 We know my position in the debate.

02:20:08.680 I am firmly opposed to abortion and the transgender surgeries and the mutilation and to lobotomies.

02:20:18.540 And I guess my critics and opponents support those things.

02:20:22.980 And people can decide for themselves who is more reasonable.

02:20:25.520 I am sincerely really impressed with you that you came out here and were willing to come on

02:20:30.180 the show and express your point of view.

02:20:32.380 And I really, I wish more, well, I won't call you a liberal because you're a leftist.

02:20:36.520 But I wish more leftists would do it.

02:20:38.240 So thank you, Bronte, for coming out.

02:20:39.340 Where can people find you?

02:20:40.520 They can find me at Bronte Remzik on TikTok.

02:20:43.380 And my website is BeKindAndCurious.com.

02:20:46.120 All right.

02:20:46.620 Be kind and curious out there, folks.

02:20:48.740 I'm Michael Knowles.

02:20:49.620 See you next time.

02:20:50.240 See you next time.

02:20:56.680 Bye.

02:20:58.680 Bye.

02:20:59.300 Bye.

02:20:59.880 Bye.

02:21:00.200 Bye.

02:21:00.680 Bye.

02:21:01.100 Bye.

02:21:02.200 Bye.

02:21:02.320 Bye.

02:21:02.560 Bye.

02:21:03.180 Bye.

02:21:04.360 Bye.

02:21:05.180 Bye.

02:21:05.600 Bye.

02:21:06.200 Bye.

02:21:06.280 Bye.

02:21:06.600 Bye.

02:21:07.060 Bye.

02:21:08.360 Bye.

The Michael Knowles Show - December 03, 2022

Michael Knowles DEBATES Viral Pro-Choice Activist ｜ Bronte Remsik

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