The Michael Knowles Show - Michael & The Former Psychic：＂It Was Fine Until the Demon Touched Me＂

00:00:00.000 When I was a real psychic medium, I really wanted to help people.

00:00:03.460 I was told I had a gift from God, and that draws you in, right?

00:00:06.520 It must have scared you when you discovered this ability.

00:00:10.460 I wasn't scared until I started seeing scary things,

00:00:14.180 and hearing scary things, and getting touched by demons.

00:00:27.120 Did you get that?

00:00:28.840 You did not, because I'm not a psychic, and you're not a psychic.

00:00:32.980 My guest today used to be a psychic.

00:00:35.960 That would be Jen Niza.

00:00:38.720 And this episode is brought to you by Jen Yusel.

00:00:40.560 More from them later.

00:00:41.360 Now, I would like to turn to my guest.

00:00:44.180 Jen, thank you for coming on the show.

00:00:45.620 Thank you for having me.

00:00:46.660 So, I want to hear your whole story.

00:00:49.300 You were a psychic.

00:00:50.660 You are no longer.

00:00:51.980 You grew up in New York.

00:00:55.060 That's really all I know.

00:00:55.940 Long Island.

00:00:56.560 Long Island.

00:00:58.020 How does a nice, normal, Italian lady from New York end up a psychic?

00:01:03.880 Normal?

00:01:04.460 Thank you.

00:01:06.080 At least you seem normal.

00:01:07.460 Well, in my home, Michael, we were talking about paranormal activity.

00:01:14.980 Things being moved around, the lights going on and off.

00:01:18.080 It was acceptable.

00:01:19.740 Terms like ghosts were being used in my home.

00:01:23.320 My mom's aunt was a psychic medium.

00:01:26.160 She wasn't a professional.

00:01:27.740 It wasn't her job.

00:01:29.000 She also was kind of what people do now.

00:01:31.640 They call it Reiki.

00:01:33.780 She was a self-professing healer with energy.

00:01:35.920 So, it was kind of something that mom grew up around.

00:01:40.340 So, then when we were children, we grew up around it, too.

00:01:44.540 It was in my home and being talked about.

00:01:47.500 As a matter of fact, even in the community, a friend of my sister's, she's a couple years older than I am.

00:01:55.980 So, we were about 12, 13, and she was about 12, 13, and a group of girls got together, and they had the Ouija board.

00:02:03.200 And the Ouija board is still out there today rocking and rolling in Toys R Us or wherever it's being sold.

00:02:12.600 And these girls got together, and they did the Ouija board, and the story was crazy.

00:02:19.240 They asked the Ouija board, and I don't know if you want me to explain what the Ouija board is, but.

00:02:24.620 I've mentioned it before.

00:02:26.020 I actually don't even totally know.

00:02:27.680 But it's this toy, but it's not really a toy.

00:02:30.760 And it's this weird occult kind of thing where you all put your hands on the little dial, and it brings you to different letters and numbers.

00:02:37.620 And the only other thing I know about it is the story of how this thing got patented is shrouded in mystery.

00:02:45.060 No one really knows where this thing came from, and it's still there.

00:02:48.460 I remember I was walking in Long Island not that long ago.

00:02:50.740 I was walking down the street in Sag Harbor, and I saw that they had the board in a toy shop, one of the famous toy shops there.

00:02:57.540 Okay, so you're doing this weird occult Ouija board type thing.

00:03:00.300 Yeah.

00:03:00.820 Well, I'm hearing about this.

00:03:01.880 Are you hearing about it?

00:03:02.320 I wasn't doing it.

00:03:03.680 And I was a little bit younger, and these girls got together, and you ask it questions, which, of course, what you're doing is you're invoking demons when you're doing this, right?

00:03:12.660 So the girls asked who would be, I'll use the term, unalive first, who would be dead, who was going to die.

00:03:20.300 All right, I'm just going to be, I'm going bold, Michael, I'm putting it out there, okay?

00:03:23.400 It's all right, there's a couple of New Yorkers here.

00:03:25.120 Yeah, we are.

00:03:25.600 We can be blunt.

00:03:26.400 Okay, good.

00:03:27.140 So they asked who was going to die first, and the planchette was moving around, and it spelled out this girl's name that was sitting there.

00:03:37.200 A couple of weeks later, she unalived herself.

00:03:40.400 Now, it's like, it's so sad, obviously, but then when you hear about that, how did it know?

00:03:50.240 How did that, but that girl was suffering with depression, and, you know, I don't mean to go into, you know, a whole educational thing, but how the demons know is because they're hovering around, and they see.

00:04:03.320 And so they knew that girl was vulnerable and susceptible, and I'm sure that suggestion was just enough to push her over the edge.

00:04:10.880 You know, we've mentioned demons once or twice, and for all of human history, everyone believed in angels and demons, and for the last 60 years, we've all decided that it's not real.

00:04:21.460 But I certainly think it's all real, and one aspect of demons is they're not God.

00:04:31.020 You know, it's not that they can read your mind, but they are observant.

00:04:35.220 They've been around a long time.

00:04:36.340 They're very observant, which is what you're describing, that they kind of can see these things that you're doing and prey on you.

00:04:42.660 So you're hearing these.

00:04:45.060 Who did you hear this from?

00:04:46.080 My sister.

00:04:46.960 This is from your sister who participated?

00:04:49.320 She didn't, but her friends did.

00:04:50.100 But her friends did, okay.

00:04:51.000 So you're hearing all these things, and then where does the paranormal activity fit in in your house?

00:04:56.600 Your aunt is involved in all this stuff?

00:04:58.880 Well, she didn't.

00:05:00.540 My aunt wasn't in our house, but my mom grew up that way, so I think that's why it was acceptable.

00:05:05.420 In our home, and where my mom, and I am not throwing mom under the bus.

00:05:10.160 Oh, that's my disclaimer.

00:05:11.440 Nobody come at mom.

00:05:12.940 She didn't know any better.

00:05:14.680 She actually brought a tarot card reader into the house when I was 13.

00:05:19.020 And I had that tarot card reading, and I was, like, blown away.

00:05:22.340 I was like, how do these cards know this?

00:05:24.420 How did this woman know that my friend just came back from a trip and gave me a piece of jewelry?

00:05:29.960 And I know that sounds generic, but she went into the type of jewelry.

00:05:33.240 She went into the whole thing.

00:05:35.100 Okay, this is what, because we just jumped right into the deep end here, but this is what a lot of people are going to ask.

00:05:42.260 Which is with the tarot readers, or someone who says they can speak to the dead, you know, like that guy who used to be on TV, John Edwards.

00:05:48.900 Or any psychic or whatever.

00:05:51.660 They're going to say, okay, regardless of what I think about the existence of angels and demons and spirits and stuff, aren't a lot of these guys just hucksters who are really good at reading people's cues and using vague enough language?

00:06:04.160 And they say, you know, I'm getting a B.

00:06:06.200 And you say, yes, my Aunt Bertha died 10 years ago.

00:06:08.500 Yeah, it's her.

00:06:09.220 That's it, right?

00:06:09.960 So how much of it is just hucksterism?

00:06:14.560 And how much of it is tapping into something real?

00:06:17.940 There really are charlatans out there or hucksters, like you say.

00:06:21.420 And we're seeing a lot of them, I think, on TikTok.

00:06:23.620 We're seeing them on the street corners with the palm readings.

00:06:27.160 I was about to say Psalm.

00:06:28.320 You know where my head is.

00:06:29.680 The Psalm reading is a lot better than Psalm.

00:06:30.880 Yeah, it's so much better.

00:06:32.760 But what you're describing is a cold reading.

00:06:36.080 So looking for the cues.

00:06:37.900 I would actually say, Michael, there are more real psychics out there.

00:06:42.800 More real psychics.

00:06:44.460 Psychics that are really communicating with demons.

00:06:47.820 I would steer people away from the whole thing, of course, altogether.

00:06:52.820 But on TikTok, an example would be now they have all new kinds of divination tools that I had never even seen before,

00:07:00.280 like dowsing rods.

00:07:02.100 That's been around for a while.

00:07:03.280 I just never used them.

00:07:04.540 Dowsing rods or any other thing that they're just looking for a yes or a no.

00:07:08.800 That's where your huckster really comes in.

00:07:11.120 I mean, you have a 50-50 shot.

00:07:13.100 I mean, come on.

00:07:14.140 So when I see that on TikTok, I go, scroll.

00:07:16.840 I'm not even going in there to preach the gospel.

00:07:18.960 I'm like, you know.

00:07:20.420 I mean, that is just.

00:07:21.440 But they're still participating in divination anyway.

00:07:24.880 They're still doing it.

00:07:25.600 They're just pretending, but they're still doing it.

00:07:28.180 And if you do bad things ironically long enough, there's really no difference between irony and sincerity.

00:07:34.320 Exactly.

00:07:34.800 So your family's experience with this weird occult stuff goes back a little bit.

00:07:44.060 How did your aunt get involved in it?

00:07:46.420 When I became a psychic medium.

00:07:48.960 So there is a difference between psychics and psychic mediums.

00:07:51.720 What's the difference?

00:07:52.180 Well, I was one of those people talking to who I believe were dead people.

00:07:56.180 So just like John Edward.

00:07:57.960 All psychic mediums are psychic, but not all psychics are mediums.

00:08:02.340 So a psychic like a tarot card reader or a clairvoyant may not tell you that they're not going to be connecting with somebody from the other side.

00:08:10.500 Those are new age terms.

00:08:11.780 But they're not claiming to bring anybody through.

00:08:14.700 So that's different.

00:08:15.720 They're not channeling a deceased person or a medium.

00:08:20.600 I'm picturing like in medical school, you know, you start out general ed and then you say, okay, I'm going to focus on phlebotomy or something.

00:08:28.180 I don't know, I'm going to focus on obstetrics.

00:08:30.940 So you grow up with this, you see the tarot cards, you hear the Ouija stories, you know your aunt's involved in this, your mom's kind of open to it.

00:08:38.200 At what point do you say, I'm going to be a psychic?

00:08:41.500 Well, right after that tarot card reading, I was getting tarot cards, my own tarot cards.

00:08:45.820 My sister got her own deck and we started doing readings.

00:08:48.760 In those decks, it comes with these little books that explain how to do layouts and certain types of readings, like are you doing past, present, future?

00:08:59.160 And then the claim is that the card will give you information and that information about the card is in this little booklet as well.

00:09:06.020 So the idea is to read the little book and, you know, and do these cards.

00:09:10.000 But I didn't have to look at any sort of explanation of these cards.

00:09:15.160 I started receiving information because, of course, the cards know nothing about you.

00:09:19.900 It's just cardboard.

00:09:21.260 So, you know, but you don't know that at the time you're deceived.

00:09:23.560 So my sister would read the little booklet and get the definitions or whatever, descriptions, rather, of the cards.

00:09:31.460 And we would go back and forth and do readings.

00:09:33.620 I mean, like it was our job, but it wasn't at that time.

00:09:37.480 So what convinced you that you were reading something that's real?

00:09:43.600 What was, because presumably when you lay the cards out or do whatever you do with the cards, you know, you could either flop and not get the correct information.

00:09:50.960 And then maybe you'd say, okay, I'd give it up or so.

00:09:52.820 What encouraged you to keep going?

00:09:55.300 When accurate information was coming out during those readings, it's not just something that resonates with you.

00:10:02.480 It is something that will be true about you.

00:10:04.980 And that's, again, because even when you think about the descriptions of the cards, that was being channeled by a psychic.

00:10:12.320 That's automatic writing.

00:10:13.840 So that didn't come from nowhere.

00:10:16.280 That's demonic information, the descriptions of those cards.

00:10:20.200 So, of course, them being put down in a certain type of a way really doesn't matter.

00:10:26.380 The information is channeled and something is going to hit.

00:10:30.520 Something is going to hit because the demons are in control of this thing.

00:10:33.900 And they're around.

00:10:35.120 And you've already invoked them the second you took out that deck.

00:10:38.380 That's what you've done.

00:10:39.160 So you're sitting with your sister and you're putting the cards out.

00:10:42.380 Yeah.

00:10:42.580 Do you remember any kind of like, hey, you know, you made out with Jimmy at the bus stop yesterday.

00:10:49.660 I mean, is it, what, do you have an example of?

00:10:53.000 You're really taking me back.

00:10:54.060 I'm 46, Michael.

00:10:55.360 Yeah.

00:10:55.700 I assumed you were 29.

00:10:57.140 Oh, thank you.

00:10:58.180 I was like 15 when we were doing this between 13 and 16.

00:11:01.420 But I have a lot of examples of things that, you know, I did a lot of automatic writings.

00:11:08.220 The cards, the cards were just a stepping stone.

00:11:10.900 And that's a big thing that people really need to know.

00:11:13.840 What is automatic writing?

00:11:15.240 Automatic writing is when you said, I did it with paper and pen and I would ask a question

00:11:19.440 or I would put a name down.

00:11:21.400 I did it for my clients as well.

00:11:23.220 And I just started channeling.

00:11:24.600 I just started channeling information and wrote it really quickly.

00:11:29.300 It just started coming right out.

00:11:31.600 So kind of like a reading, but on a piece of paper.

00:11:34.320 And you're not consciously doing the writing?

00:11:37.580 No, it's just going.

00:11:38.620 I mean, it's kind of like information is being downloaded.

00:11:41.680 They're not your thoughts.

00:11:43.260 It's information coming in birthdays, names of people, like really names of people, not

00:11:48.200 like who's the M name or whatever, like really names of people, really things that happened

00:11:52.240 in your life.

00:11:53.700 And I did this for perfect strangers.

00:11:57.060 I used to read people, I used to be getting like x-rays and ultrasounds and I would just

00:12:01.420 start reading.

00:12:03.140 The people, the radiologist or whoever was doing the test, yeah.

00:12:08.360 And that really came to my mind, I have to say, when they were doing my makeup and stuff,

00:12:13.520 rewind, when I was a psychic, I would have just busted out into a reading.

00:12:18.400 I thank God, free of that.

00:12:21.340 It must have.

00:12:22.280 It would have scared you when you discovered this ability, right?

00:12:26.920 I mean, it would have disconcerted me if I discovered I had that skill.

00:12:30.840 I wasn't scared until I started seeing scary things and hearing scary things and getting

00:12:37.120 touched by demons.

00:12:38.820 Because think about the devil giving you this power.

00:12:45.040 He liked to have pride.

00:12:46.080 He liked to have power, right?

00:12:47.420 You have that when you know things, hidden knowledge about people, right?

00:12:51.720 And now people are coming to you for these readings and that's building you up, right?

00:12:56.620 They're coming to you.

00:12:57.700 They're not going to God.

00:12:59.920 And I'm saying that with a lot of regret, trust me.

00:13:03.440 And I was a young person, so it wasn't like I was walking around, ooh, I want to be powerful.

00:13:07.400 But it does give you that power and it's prideful.

00:13:10.260 Nothing scary there, but scary when you start seeing demons manifesting around you.

00:13:15.400 And some of the readings I did, Michael, were even though my spirit guide, I added my spirit guide,

00:13:21.060 who was supposed to be filtering because the belief was that there were good spirits and bad spirits.

00:13:25.740 And then, of course, you would use false tools of protection like crystals and white sage and smudging.

00:13:32.240 And I smudged everything to death.

00:13:34.440 What's smudging?

00:13:35.220 So you take white sage and you burn it.

00:13:37.820 And it's like a bundle tied with a little rope.

00:13:40.220 And I would burn it around myself, burn it in my room, wherever I went to do readings.

00:13:44.080 And the idea is that it would scare away demons, clear out your space.

00:13:49.000 It's still very big today, by the way.

00:13:51.760 And, of course, it doesn't because a demon doesn't care about sage.

00:13:55.240 But I didn't know that.

00:13:57.060 I had a divination leader.

00:13:59.680 She said, just imagine white light around yourself, almost like a crime scene when the body's there

00:14:05.480 and they draw a line around the body.

00:14:07.700 And that's what she would tell us.

00:14:08.660 Just imagine a demon is not afraid of my imagination.

00:14:12.160 No.

00:14:12.420 Or a fake light or whatever.

00:14:14.040 You've been around a long time.

00:14:15.060 They're like, come on.

00:14:15.960 But I did do that.

00:14:18.500 Anyway, I was at a Halloween party.

00:14:21.880 And I used to get hired a lot around Halloween.

00:14:24.840 That's spooky time and bringing the psychics.

00:14:28.380 And this woman sat in front of me.

00:14:31.680 It was a group of people.

00:14:33.680 But I offered everybody could stay in the group together or you could have a mini private reading.

00:14:37.940 And that's what they opted for.

00:14:39.180 And this woman, this is how we were sitting, just like this.

00:14:42.520 And I sat and I started channeling.

00:14:44.900 And it felt like a bad spirit.

00:14:48.380 And I start giving the information.

00:14:51.160 So the demon, because we know it's a demon.

00:14:53.640 I didn't know then.

00:14:54.900 Masquerading as this woman's uncle.

00:14:57.520 But here's the thing.

00:14:58.840 Her uncle shot her and her brother when she was a child.

00:15:02.560 This thing apparently, because I remember I was seeing the newspapers.

00:15:05.800 I didn't know this woman from a hole in the wall.

00:15:08.480 And there was like this angst building up.

00:15:11.840 And now she's looking at me like I did it.

00:15:13.900 Because she's seeing, you know, because I'm communicating with the uncle, which of course I'm not.

00:15:18.600 It's a demon.

00:15:19.720 And it's almost like I could have been out of this.

00:15:22.780 Like she's dealing now with the uncle straight on.

00:15:24.560 But I'm not the uncle.

00:15:25.540 It's me.

00:15:26.080 Hello.

00:15:26.280 And she's looking at me with daggers in her eyes.

00:15:29.500 And I just wanted to get out of there.

00:15:31.300 I was sick for like, I don't know, a weekend or a full week after that.

00:15:35.040 I felt so sick.

00:15:36.280 It was sickening and evil.

00:15:38.820 So there is an evil side that some psychics at the time, like myself, would acknowledge.

00:15:44.720 But many don't acknowledge that side of it.

00:15:48.420 What was your spirit guide like?

00:15:50.760 Oh, well, my spirit guide was a Native American man.

00:15:56.940 And just very strong, very, but strong but peaceful seeming.

00:16:04.240 Again, we have to just put that out there.

00:16:06.480 Wanting to help me.

00:16:07.760 Wanting to guide me.

00:16:10.300 And yeah, that's really just a quick answer to that one.

00:16:14.480 And I think if we go back to that experience I shared with you, when that evil spirit, which

00:16:24.940 was pretending to be that woman's uncle who shot her, it's like, where were you then?

00:16:30.440 You know, where were you then?

00:16:31.920 Holy Spirit.

00:16:33.100 Yeah, yeah.

00:16:33.820 Oh, man.

00:16:35.240 Pseudo Holy Spirit.

00:16:36.260 Yeah.

00:16:36.620 See, I'm more used to saying Holy Spirit than I'm saying spirit guide these days.

00:16:39.840 That's good.

00:16:40.220 You know, thank God.

00:16:40.500 It's a better habit to have cultivated.

00:16:42.100 Yeah.

00:16:42.380 But you can see how it's, you can see how that happens.

00:16:45.160 And then you always have something to blame or something else to do.

00:16:47.520 But yeah.

00:16:48.280 And this spirit guide, I believe, watched over my daughter, too.

00:16:51.640 I could see him when my daughter was little.

00:16:53.980 So I used to heal her when she was sick.

00:16:57.780 I would do, which again, I didn't take any Reiki classes, but I believed I could heal her

00:17:01.960 when she was sick.

00:17:02.820 And I saw my spirit guide standing behind her one day when she was really sick.

00:17:06.980 So I believed I was covered.

00:17:08.540 But then those-

00:17:08.820 You saw her like, or you saw him in the-

00:17:10.960 Right behind her.

00:17:11.960 Yeah.

00:17:12.520 Just manifested that way.

00:17:14.920 Doesn't look like me and you, but I could see him.

00:17:17.740 That's how I knew he was Native American.

00:17:19.840 He didn't tell me it.

00:17:20.640 I could see it.

00:17:21.280 Yeah.

00:17:21.820 Yeah.

00:17:22.060 Did it work?

00:17:24.680 No.

00:17:25.820 No.

00:17:26.400 And it's not because I was any less of a Reiki person than anybody else.

00:17:31.080 It's because God's in control.

00:17:33.540 Yeah.

00:17:33.820 Not Chief Demon.

00:17:35.680 Chief Baphomet standing behind you with a feather in his head.

00:17:37.960 Right.

00:17:38.960 Can you not actually talk to a ghost?

00:17:43.040 Meaning, I know there's a big debate, are ghosts real?

00:17:45.480 But there is a ghost in the Bible, in an example of necromancy, where Saul goes to the witch

00:17:52.540 of Endor.

00:17:53.480 And Saul says, I'm outlawing all sorts of necromancy.

00:17:57.660 And then he himself goes and says, hey, call up the ghost of Samuel.

00:18:01.060 Yeah.

00:18:01.220 And this necromancer does the incantation.

00:18:03.980 And then seems kind of surprised.

00:18:05.820 Yeah.

00:18:06.500 And she says, wait a second, you're Saul.

00:18:08.020 Wait, hold on, you're not, that's a ghost there.

00:18:11.000 And anyway, there's a long history of theological debate about the nature of this ghost.

00:18:16.060 But my question is, can you call up a ghost?

00:18:19.360 A deceased person?

00:18:22.020 Yeah.

00:18:22.360 No.

00:18:23.520 No, you can't.

00:18:24.700 When we die, we go to one of two places, dependent upon your relationship with Jesus, of course.

00:18:30.840 So no.

00:18:31.620 And there's a great chasm in between.

00:18:33.860 And of course, the Bible tells us that also, if you look at Lazarus and the rich man, Luke

00:18:37.680 16, you'll see that there's a great wall, if you will, between heaven and hell.

00:18:44.060 So how I say it all the time is, I'm not bopping in and out of heaven and coming to earth

00:18:48.840 and coming to your dream, talking to a psychic, and you're not getting out of hell and coming

00:18:52.880 here either.

00:18:53.440 So once we're, the Bible actually also says, don't talk to the sleeping, they know nothing.

00:18:58.760 Don't talk to the dead, they know nothing.

00:19:00.540 You are where you are.

00:19:01.600 So you're never, ever contacting a deceased person.

00:19:06.420 You're being duped, but you're not being duped because the psychic is trying to, of course,

00:19:11.100 minus the charlatans and the hucksters.

00:19:13.380 But people like me, when I was a real psychic medium, I really wanted to help people.

00:19:18.220 I was told I had a gift from God.

00:19:20.520 There's that little, that, you know, and that draws you in, right?

00:19:24.120 Because you're thinking this is a gift.

00:19:25.340 This is so helpful.

00:19:26.580 This person is nice and compassionate and we're hugging and crying.

00:19:31.000 And I believe that it's your child coming through.

00:19:33.940 I believe it's your husband or your wife or your grandma.

00:19:36.820 And again, I don't know you from Adam.

00:19:39.860 And I'm able to tell you where you were last week, what you were doing, who your family members are,

00:19:44.120 how your mom died, what she looked like.

00:19:48.940 And that's really, that is frightening when you think about it.

00:19:53.180 But I wasn't frightened while I was doing it.

00:19:55.320 Only when the bad things.

00:19:56.080 And very seductive.

00:19:56.860 It's very seductive too.

00:19:57.920 But both because of the appeal to pride and because you think you're helping someone.

00:20:00.920 So the people who come to you, it's because someone just died.

00:20:03.980 They're having difficulty grieving.

00:20:05.920 And so they say, I want to talk.

00:20:07.600 Listen, I get it.

00:20:08.720 I've heard loved ones die.

00:20:09.860 And I think, I Googled it once.

00:20:11.340 I said, how do you talk to the dead?

00:20:12.900 I didn't take it any further than that.

00:20:15.060 Thank God.

00:20:15.920 And I don't intend to.

00:20:18.800 But you're a kid.

00:20:21.580 You hear about these things.

00:20:22.540 You play these little tarot games.

00:20:24.140 You then, when does it become a job?

00:20:27.940 Yeah.

00:20:28.420 So actually, that was when the scary stuff started happening for me.

00:20:33.480 I was getting touched.

00:20:34.420 I got thrown off my chair.

00:20:36.680 And I was in, we called it the computer room.

00:20:38.780 I lived with my parents at the time.

00:20:40.280 And I literally was thrown off the chair.

00:20:42.200 And that's the same room where I was being touched.

00:20:43.860 The treadmill was in there.

00:20:44.760 So when I was on the treadmill, I would feel hands on me.

00:20:47.480 And these things were happening.

00:20:48.760 And of course, I went to my psychic medium.

00:20:51.960 So you had a psychic too?

00:20:53.080 Of course I did.

00:20:53.880 I guess it's like a doctor doesn't write his own prescriptions.

00:20:56.120 That's right.

00:20:56.620 Okay, so you go to the other psychic.

00:20:58.480 Yes, I go to the other psychic.

00:21:00.360 And I don't say a word.

00:21:01.760 Just see if she was going to pick up on it and what was going on.

00:21:03.820 And she did.

00:21:04.920 And she told me that I had a gift.

00:21:07.860 And I was a medium.

00:21:08.720 And this is now the deceased trying to communicate with me.

00:21:12.720 Because I also had, I would get psychic attacks in dreams.

00:21:16.320 And I had a dream with this deceased guy in it.

00:21:20.400 Now, long story short, he was connected to my daughter's father.

00:21:25.420 I wasn't with him anymore through his girlfriend.

00:21:28.780 So this was somebody kind of that was direct but indirect.

00:21:31.800 So I didn't know anything about this person.

00:21:34.300 So indirect enough, but direct in the way that I could get the message across to my daughter's dad.

00:21:39.960 And so when I told him about it, he was like, all right, I'll go ask if this is, and I'm like, this guy died in a car accident.

00:21:45.820 He has blonde hair.

00:21:46.920 He's young, around 17.

00:21:48.700 You know, just the whole description, whatever I received is what I gave.

00:21:52.480 He comes back a week later to see my daughter.

00:21:55.460 And he's like, Jen, I don't know what that was.

00:21:57.060 I asked, you know, so-and-so about it.

00:22:00.040 And that's her friend's brother.

00:22:01.640 He just died that way.

00:22:02.760 That's what he looks like, the whole thing.

00:22:04.040 And I'm like, whoa.

00:22:05.440 And so that, in conjunction with the other things that were starting to happen to me, that's when I, you know, what brought me to the medium.

00:22:12.680 And she told me I have a gift.

00:22:13.940 They're trying to communicate with me, and I need to help people with that.

00:22:17.340 Here's a card.

00:22:19.760 A woman that, when I referenced the divination group that I was in, she leads this divination group.

00:22:26.500 You need to go there and grow.

00:22:30.880 You know, grow your gift.

00:22:32.340 You know, I say it's not Psychic University, but it was a divination class where you're with like-minded people who was doing crystal readings, aura, the whole kit and caboodle, right?

00:22:45.820 And this you might find interesting.

00:22:48.580 This woman literally, the whole thing is witchcraft.

00:22:51.220 Yeah.

00:22:51.460 What a ritual.

00:22:51.860 Sounds like it.

00:22:52.600 You know, the crystal ball.

00:22:53.820 Yeah.

00:22:54.120 And she was like the cutest little woman.

00:22:56.240 And it was in her house, and she was so sweet and nice.

00:22:58.840 And she had us all stand together like a kumbaya moment, right?

00:23:02.900 And we're all standing in a circle, and she decides to say the Lord's Prayer, or as you would know, the Our Father.

00:23:09.100 Because after all, that's the most powerful prayer protection, she told us, right before she's about to practice divination.

00:23:15.240 Wow.

00:23:15.480 I mean, but this is the deception, Michael, that people really do need to know, like how deceptive it is.

00:23:21.300 Because they're going to use God words and even prayers, and that's another way to suck you into something that is so demonic.

00:23:29.740 Well, that's all New Age, right?

00:23:30.980 Yeah.

00:23:31.120 New Age uses some real religious language and then jumbles it up with all sorts of demonic stuff.

00:23:37.520 Yes.

00:23:37.640 Which is, you know, it says it in the Bible that, you know, Lucifer can come, Satan can come as an angel of light.

00:23:43.740 Yes, that's right.

00:23:44.600 So, okay, you're doing this, you're going to psychic university, you're progressing in your training to be a psychic.

00:23:52.700 Yeah.

00:23:54.040 Two questions.

00:23:54.780 One, does it pay very well?

00:23:57.980 Yes.

00:23:58.380 Yes, and I thought I was the nice guy, which at the time, you know, I mean, I am the nice guy, but I didn't want people, I wanted to be able to reach all people.

00:24:11.940 So, I wasn't going to charge with some of the other psychics.

00:24:15.180 I mean, you're talking hundreds of dollars for a reading.

00:24:18.320 For a reading.

00:24:18.980 So, I was not as many hundreds of dollars, but I was a couple hundred dollars or so a reading.

00:24:24.480 I mean, not in the beginning, I started very little and then I just built up and I then led my own divination classes.

00:24:31.340 And you're getting, and let me tell you something, it's addictive.

00:24:34.680 That's the whole thing, it's addictive.

00:24:36.020 My clients never left me alone.

00:24:37.860 I mean, and my whole business was word of mouth.

00:24:40.080 That was because of the accuracy.

00:24:42.280 I shouldn't be quoting it, but you know what I mean.

00:24:44.660 That's insightful because I don't, I'm not saying that all psychological therapy is bad.

00:24:51.960 I think a lot of it is, maybe there's a comparison to be made here between that and the psychics.

00:24:56.560 But the way I know there's a bad psychologist is when someone goes to him for 30 years.

00:25:02.040 And someone says, oh, I've been to my psychologist.

00:25:03.560 I say, well, I guess it didn't work.

00:25:05.660 Or same thing with pharmaceuticals.

00:25:09.120 I'm not against all drugs.

00:25:10.800 But the drug needs to work.

00:25:12.740 It needs to cure you.

00:25:13.440 It needs to help fix your problem.

00:25:14.760 If you just keep taking the drug and your problem doesn't get better, maybe your problem gets worse, you're addicted.

00:25:19.900 Well, that's not medicine.

00:25:22.180 Yeah, that's right.

00:25:23.500 That's a drug addiction.

00:25:24.660 Right.

00:25:25.040 And so, of course, if the psychic came in and fixed your problem, well, I guess that person wouldn't be a psychic.

00:25:36.240 And the powers that control the psychic experience wouldn't be who they are either.

00:25:41.420 Well, you hit the nail on the head.

00:25:42.820 It's a hamster wheel.

00:25:43.860 Well, but that's what it is.

00:25:45.320 But they're getting a taste of something that fulfills them for 50 minutes.

00:25:51.420 Yeah.

00:25:51.980 And then because it's not what they're really needing, right?

00:25:55.900 They're looking for peace.

00:25:57.000 They're looking for joy.

00:25:58.500 They're looking for answers.

00:25:59.560 They're looking for wisdom.

00:26:00.440 They're looking for knowledge.

00:26:01.700 But they're going to the wrong team for that.

00:26:03.520 They're going to the demonic side of this, not to God.

00:26:07.100 So everything that they're looking for, the devil will promise you, but he can't really deliver.

00:26:11.920 Right.

00:26:12.440 So you're on that hamster wheel.

00:26:14.420 And then you get, and it escalates, Michael.

00:26:17.840 Like, you start with the tarot cards, even my own life.

00:26:20.480 Then it goes to numerology, astrology, psychic mediumship.

00:26:24.680 I had my palms read three million times.

00:26:26.720 I even did some witchcraft spells with a couple of friends.

00:26:29.660 It wasn't really my particular, you know.

00:26:33.820 Expertise.

00:26:34.460 Correct.

00:26:34.980 Forte.

00:26:35.540 Right.

00:26:36.160 But I did.

00:26:37.920 What kind of spells?

00:26:40.540 It was like, one of my friends, she was like, oh, let's do this money spell.

00:26:43.820 Like, really?

00:26:45.080 Like, just to get more money?

00:26:46.440 Just to get more money, yeah.

00:26:47.740 Isn't it interesting how that always goes with it?

00:26:50.400 When you think about anything demonic, like it goes with all, like, the greed, the pride, the money.

00:26:54.260 It's really base kind of things.

00:26:55.920 You have to, like, put the, and then you have to cleanse things.

00:26:58.220 Crystals.

00:26:59.140 I did chakra balancing.

00:27:01.580 Yeah.

00:27:02.100 I only hear about this from my white liberal lady friends, the chakras and whatever.

00:27:06.140 What is that?

00:27:06.800 Yeah.

00:27:07.440 Well, chakra is, in Sanskrit, it means wheel.

00:27:10.180 So it's a part of the Hindu belief system that they believe you have something like 144 chakras,

00:27:19.120 but the seven primary are from the top of your head to the base of your spine.

00:27:23.220 So this wheel represents energy, like it's a wheel of energy.

00:27:26.620 And when it's moving around the right way and when it's open, then you would have ideal physical health, emotional health, and psychic health and spiritual health, right?

00:27:36.900 So, like, the third eye, you've probably heard of that before, the third eye.

00:27:41.220 The kundalini spirit.

00:27:43.120 The kundalini spirit, now, that's part of the chakra, too, because it's in the shape of a serpent from the top of your head down, right?

00:27:50.060 And people claim to have this kundalini experience when it's unraveling, and it's like this, not to say cathartic, I'm going to say, it's not cathartic, it's a little bit more exciting than that.

00:28:01.640 That's a family show, you know, so we'll leave it at that.

00:28:03.840 Yeah, so take that part out, or if you want, but...

00:28:06.320 That's elusive enough.

00:28:07.500 It drives people crazy, but it will also drive you crazy, and that's when you see people being knocked down, being knocked over, out of order, out of control, and you know that's demonic, because you know the fruit of the spirit is self-control.

00:28:21.720 Right.

00:28:21.900 Right, you know, so what I'm trying to say is that all these new age practices always intermingle and lead to the next thing.

00:28:28.960 So, you're engaged in all of these weird practices.

00:28:33.280 Does it ever dawn on you that this is a bit odd, like crystal balls and stuff?

00:28:39.060 It, um, no.

00:28:41.780 It didn't seem odd, it just seemed, um, it seemed when I, like I said, when I saw the scary things, I had sleep paralysis, that was frightening, really frightening.

00:28:51.600 I wouldn't have known that's what it was at the time.

00:28:54.080 I had it once.

00:28:54.960 Did you?

00:28:55.380 And it's spooky, sleep paralysis.

00:28:56.800 Yes, it is.

00:28:57.300 Because you can't, you're, you're totally awake, but you can't move, and I heard, I don't know, I heard some scary thing.

00:29:03.820 I don't remember exactly what it was.

00:29:04.520 Did you see a demon?

00:29:05.560 I didn't see a demon, but I heard what sounded kind of demonic, and I didn't.

00:29:09.180 And you heard from one.

00:29:10.000 Yeah, it really freaked me out, and so I woke up, I said, what the hell was that, you know.

00:29:13.200 Wow.

00:29:13.440 And, you know, don't forget, I'm, at this point I was reverting back to the church, so I'm coming out of atheism, I'm, but at that point I would say I'm a Christian, you know, and I, so I, so I believed in all this stuff, and I said, what, you know, what, what, what?

00:29:27.000 Did I just hear a demon or something?

00:29:28.420 And Googled it, and discovered this phenomenon called sleep paralysis.

00:29:33.320 So what did you?

00:29:34.720 I was like, like you, you know, you're wide awake, but I saw the demon standing right in front of my bed, and he manifested as a black shadowy figure, which you may hear a lot, because they manifest that way a lot.

00:29:46.360 Kind of like the Grim Reaper without the.

00:29:48.660 Without the sickle?

00:29:49.700 Yeah.

00:29:50.320 Yeah.

00:29:51.320 And just staring at me, and it was just like a, like this, and, and then he's gone.

00:29:59.880 And I would say, that, I would, that, that was troubling.

00:30:02.440 That was troubling, but because I still believed that I had the power to light the sage, you know, light the candles, do the, I could just, this could pass me by.

00:30:15.840 That was just an aspect of it, and maybe I need to do something a little bit more.

00:30:20.260 Maybe I need to get more crystals.

00:30:22.280 Maybe, you keep going to the problem for the solution in the new age.

00:30:26.060 Right, right, of course.

00:30:27.180 The other thing I've heard, this is the related question to does it pay, is I've heard that sometimes government agencies will enlist psychic mediums.

00:30:38.400 Is that real?

00:30:39.520 I believe it is, because I saw somebody on TikTok, I'm a TikTok creator, and I saw somebody on TikTok that he's a medium, and he, they enlisted him, and he was, I think he had had a government job in the past.

00:30:57.180 To find a missing boy.

00:30:59.340 The missing boy, thank God, was found and is alive, and the medium provided some information for them.

00:31:07.180 And, and, and I think this is great to bring it up, because his information was accurate and led to finding the missing boy.

00:31:14.960 But here's the thing, demons saw the, the boy.

00:31:18.980 They knew where he was.

00:31:20.340 So, so this guy is so connected, if you will, to the demonic, they're feeding him information left and right.

00:31:28.620 Why not?

00:31:29.740 And so there's a good end that comes out of that.

00:31:32.120 They find this missing boy.

00:31:33.660 Well, but couldn't that good end have been had through God?

00:31:37.900 Right.

00:31:38.660 No.

00:31:39.460 Yeah, look, I don't.

00:31:40.500 Like, what's the alternative?

00:31:41.660 Right, I don't think that good ends justify immoral meetings.

00:31:45.560 You know, I think that, that very notion has gotten us into a whole lot of trouble.

00:31:50.660 I'm, I believe in all this stuff.

00:31:53.040 I think it's all real.

00:31:53.840 I think that the Bible doesn't say, don't consult mediums and necromancers.

00:31:58.600 Not because it's all fake and silly, but because it is real and bad and you shouldn't do it.

00:32:03.540 Yes.

00:32:03.620 But for people who don't believe that this stuff happens, what do you say to them?

00:32:11.840 What if, for the people who say, oh, this lady was just crazy and having all sorts of kooky experiences and I'm glad she's normal now.

00:32:18.120 You can't even, you, you, you can't get away with that one.

00:32:21.780 And I, and trust me, I have to go into this a lot with what I do.

00:32:25.720 Just being out there and, I start with my testimony.

00:32:28.580 I'll tell people my testimony and I'll explain.

00:32:30.620 I'll sit there and say, listen, if you and I just met today and I, I would have given you a reading.

00:32:35.700 I don't have to, well, you, you're, they would say, well, you probably Googled or whatever.

00:32:40.000 Okay, so take back that example.

00:32:42.040 Just your, your, um.

00:32:43.280 Someone without a wiki page, though.

00:32:44.540 Yeah, there you go.

00:32:45.160 Somebody without that.

00:32:45.980 Not that I even knew how to work technology.

00:32:48.460 And also, I don't think we even had certain things when I was doing it.

00:32:51.040 But anyway, I digress.

00:32:52.820 I would say, listen, I sat before strangers and was able to get information about them.

00:32:58.160 I never met them.

00:32:58.820 And like I said, even in random places, I would just go out and I just started hearing chatter about people.

00:33:04.640 And that was tough because then I had to decide, am I going to go up to this person and ask them if I can give them this information or am I not going to do that?

00:33:13.020 I mean, these are perfect strangers.

00:33:14.320 Would you go up to them sometimes?

00:33:15.700 Oh, yeah.

00:33:16.360 You just walk up to someone and say, hey, by the way, you know, you're.

00:33:18.500 I'm a psychic, I get information, and I just heard something about you.

00:33:22.000 Is it okay to give you?

00:33:23.340 And of course, everybody's like, yes.

00:33:25.720 They want it.

00:33:26.460 They want the information.

00:33:27.800 So I just try to do it from a relatable way, Michael.

00:33:30.760 Like if someone says, oh, no, this is all crazy, say, listen, I get why you think that way.

00:33:37.560 And please don't insult people with mental illness because it's not mental illness.

00:33:41.520 Do you know what I mean?

00:33:41.960 And I tell them, like, you can't have a controlled, like, sit there, like, okay, here's my client.

00:33:47.580 I have their name and number.

00:33:48.600 That's it.

00:33:49.080 And then, boom, I hear about your grandma.

00:33:51.880 You know, that's not mental illness.

00:33:54.180 That's information being given to me about you.

00:33:58.380 You know, you know why I believe that psychics are often real is I was maybe 22 or 23.

00:34:07.200 I was an actor in my wayward youth, professional actor.

00:34:09.560 I was on a movie set and made friends with this gal.

00:34:12.880 And we were chatting, and she was Italian.

00:34:14.760 We were talking about Dante.

00:34:16.140 So I don't know much about Dante.

00:34:17.680 So I'm talking, I love Dante.

00:34:19.120 So I'm talking about Dante, and this thing reminded me of this poem.

00:34:22.300 And I'm reciting these poems.

00:34:23.580 Okay, bye, see you later.

00:34:25.500 That was it.

00:34:25.940 Didn't see her for quite some time.

00:34:27.000 Then I was going in to an audition, and I see this gal.

00:34:31.080 I said, oh, hey, how's it going?

00:34:32.280 I haven't seen you in a while.

00:34:32.820 She goes, I can't believe I'm seeing you.

00:34:35.220 I just went to my psychic.

00:34:38.260 She goes, I just went to my psychic, and I sit down.

00:34:41.200 I've gone to this psychic for a long time.

00:34:42.920 And the first thing she says to me, she says, who's Dante?

00:34:47.000 And this really freaked me out.

00:34:48.720 And I was, at the time, coming out of my atheism, reverting to the church.

00:34:52.120 And the thing that freaked me out about it is not that the psychic knew that we talked about Dante or whatever,

00:34:58.540 because that's a very odd thing to bring up.

00:35:01.560 It's that psychics were real.

00:35:04.060 That's what freaked me out.

00:35:05.020 Right.

00:35:05.880 I said, oh, I guess there's more in heaven and earth than is dreamt of in our philosophy, Horatio.

00:35:10.400 It was a psychic on Long Island, actually.

00:35:12.620 Really?

00:35:12.940 Maybe you knew her.

00:35:13.820 We'll have to talk about that after when we're not on camera.

00:35:16.360 Right.

00:35:16.780 Probably did.

00:35:17.420 We were a very close circle.

00:35:19.380 We read each other, a lot of us mediums.

00:35:22.600 A lot of us came from the same divination group.

00:35:25.960 Not that it was at all different times and kind of like a hub.

00:35:31.140 Long Island is loaded with psychics.

00:35:34.180 I don't know if it's all water or what.

00:35:35.560 I'm only kidding.

00:35:35.820 I remember.

00:35:36.240 I grew up in Westchester, which is just north of the city.

00:35:40.780 I used to hear about these things, that there was occult activity in some of the towns in Westchester.

00:35:48.040 It turns around me.

00:35:49.240 I kind of wrote it off.

00:35:50.260 I said, oh, whatever.

00:35:50.780 That's kind of nonsense.

00:35:51.740 I don't know.

00:35:52.360 Now, in my old age, I go back and I think about these things, and I hear more people say that there is a lot of this activity around New York.

00:36:00.460 There is.

00:36:03.140 Honestly, I don't know.

00:36:05.540 It's so accepted.

00:36:09.320 It's so accepted.

00:36:10.580 I mean, you're seeing a lot of metaphysical stores popping up on Long Island.

00:36:15.560 I mean, Queens and Manhattan, every half block.

00:36:19.060 Yeah.

00:36:19.220 There's a palm reader, there's a, you know, but Long Island, now you're seeing full-on psychics with similar, you know, pictures on their storefronts and metaphysical shops with the crystals and everything.

00:36:33.360 I mean, there's one right by my church.

00:36:35.620 It's crazy.

00:36:36.880 It really is, but we live in a culture now that is, I hate to say it, but so godless.

00:36:43.540 Like, god is being pushed out, and less of god means more of you and more of the demonic, and then, you know, wanting, like I said before, wanting that knowledge, wanting, right, wanting power.

00:36:57.020 But so what, I kind of lived through it, so maybe I should ask myself this question, but why, we live in an age where people say, you believe in god, wow, how stupid are you?

00:37:08.560 You're so backwards and dumb, you're knuckle-dragging troglodyte.

00:37:10.980 But then all the really fancy people who say that believe in all this crap, pardon my French, like the Reiki and the crystals and the psychics and everything, and they'll go, they'll have psychics, they'll go to spirit-cooking dinners at the highest echelons of American power.

00:37:24.080 And I think, hold on, you think that I'm gullible for believing a religion that took over the entire world with 500 eyewitnesses to the resurrection and an unbroken line going back to the apostles and to our Lord himself.

00:37:39.880 And where I just, like, go to church on Sunday night like a normal person.

00:37:43.400 Right.

00:37:43.860 And you think I'm a nut for doing that, but you're going out and you think you're talking to dead people and you're playing around with crystals and weird witch ladies.

00:37:51.300 Like, my question is, how can you be that gullible to fall for all that stuff, but then think you're too scientistic and empirical and serious to believe in God?

00:38:05.900 Well, yeah, I know, that one gets me too, because when I deal with the people on my TikTok, I'm like, well, you already know that there's something supernatural.

00:38:13.520 So I would, you know, I would say you already know there's a spiritual realm.

00:38:17.020 You're not completely ignorant to the fact of the spiritual realm.

00:38:22.300 You're diving in there with the yoga, with the, well, some, well, let's be honest, too.

00:38:27.600 Some of it is just, they're so completely deceived because they believe that yoga is just breathing and stretching.

00:38:32.520 Yeah.

00:38:32.680 They believe that Reiki is just a healing modality and the answer to all their problems, like anxiety and all that stuff.

00:38:38.300 But the other side of it, when you think about it, the part that they do know, and they're wanting the spiritism part of it, they find it very intriguing, the paranormal, they are subscribing to the spiritual realm, but they're not subscribing to an authority.

00:38:55.120 So they're still, it's like a baby God theology, right?

00:38:59.100 They're their own authority.

00:39:00.260 Yes.

00:39:00.700 Yeah, yeah, right.

00:39:01.640 Individualism.

00:39:02.320 Yes, yeah.

00:39:03.300 A friend said to me recently, the culture's idea of the Holy Trinity is me, myself, and I.

00:39:11.300 Isn't it true?

00:39:13.500 Wow.

00:39:14.080 And it's something, you know, we mock, especially the atheists on the left.

00:39:19.520 It tends to be they're more on the left.

00:39:21.500 They say, oh, you guys, you're pushing your radical, subjective individualism.

00:39:26.820 But the right does that, too.

00:39:28.600 I mean, the right also has exalted individualism and relativism and the idea that you have some right to believe whatever you want to do, do whatever you want to do, and that's your freedom or something.

00:39:39.060 It's completely antithetical to the classical and Christian conception of freedom, but it is the liberal conception of freedom.

00:39:45.540 I mean, there's a friend of mine once made a very persuasive argument that the devil in Milton's Paradise Lost is a classical liberal, that that's what Milton is describing.

00:39:56.140 And I think there's quite a lot to that.

00:39:59.080 So this question of authority is really interesting.

00:40:01.900 Like when someone says, well, I'm spiritual but not religious, or, you know, I don't like organized religion, or I don't like, you know, someone making exclusive religious claims.

00:40:11.700 I just want to do my own thing.

00:40:12.980 Right.

00:40:13.780 It's like saying, it's like saying I'm really interested in myself.

00:40:20.000 I grant that there is this whole realm.

00:40:22.540 I just don't care what God says about it.

00:40:25.480 Right?

00:40:26.100 It's so right.

00:40:27.260 That's so true.

00:40:28.280 That's what spirituality is.

00:40:30.840 That's when people call themselves spiritual.

00:40:33.460 That's exactly what that is.

00:40:34.860 I think even John McArthur mentioned that in his Ben Shapiro interview.

00:40:39.860 He said, spirituality is you not subscribing to any authority.

00:40:43.840 You make the rules.

00:40:45.100 You get to decide what's good and what's bad.

00:40:48.060 And I wonder, what do they think really happens when you die, though?

00:40:52.400 You know what I mean?

00:40:53.120 Right.

00:40:53.380 Like, what do you think really happens?

00:40:55.060 Well, I guess if you can speak to the dead through the mediums, then you believe you're

00:40:59.080 going to the other side, and it's just fine.

00:41:01.840 And that's what's sad, Michael.

00:41:03.420 That's actually, that, you know, that's what breaks my heart.

00:41:06.960 Because you and I both know that we're sinners that need a Savior.

00:41:10.860 Yeah.

00:41:11.040 You know, and that's through Christ that we, because we do go on.

00:41:15.260 I mean, this isn't the, this isn't the last stop.

00:41:17.740 You know, it's like a, and it's a blip on the radar.

00:41:20.740 Yeah.

00:41:21.040 And that's why I'm so, yes, exactly.

00:41:23.700 And that's why I'm so passionate about exposing it.

00:41:26.220 So when you were a psychic professionally, did you help people?

00:41:31.420 No.

00:41:32.040 You didn't?

00:41:32.740 No.

00:41:33.960 Can I explain that?

00:41:35.080 Yeah, please.

00:41:36.220 Because people think that the psychic is helping.

00:41:38.980 I believed I was helping people for those moments that they were connecting through their grief.

00:41:43.980 They were grievous.

00:41:44.920 They're lonely.

00:41:45.580 They, even the people that were just looking for the job or, you know, needing guidance or insight.

00:41:52.480 It's not helpful because you're including them in a demonic practice.

00:41:58.240 You're, you're deceived and you're helping to deceive them.

00:42:01.660 The devil's using, he used me as a pawn.

00:42:04.120 And that's what he uses psychics as a pawn to do his dirty work.

00:42:08.320 And then once that person has come for the reading, now they've opened the demonic door.

00:42:13.860 And then you want to talk about some scary business.

00:42:16.480 Demonic oppression.

00:42:18.220 Possession is rare.

00:42:19.580 I know that's a whole big thing.

00:42:21.560 We had a long interview with an exorcist.

00:42:24.880 And there's, yeah, there's a distinction here between demonic possession, vexation, oppression, temptation, which is the most common one.

00:42:32.980 But that is a consequence that's guaranteed once you open the door to the demonic.

00:42:38.980 It's guaranteed.

00:42:40.040 However, it's going to, I always say that the devil attacks, the demonic attacks are personal.

00:42:46.660 Just like Jesus died for us personally, we have a personal faith with him.

00:42:50.380 Those demonic attacks are personal because what's going to get to me is going to be different than what gets to you, right?

00:42:55.920 So whether it's anxiety, confusion, the sleep paralysis, the nightmares, doubts, things start going wrong in your life.

00:43:04.580 Because, listen, the devil doesn't care about you.

00:43:07.240 He doesn't care about you.

00:43:08.240 He hates God and he hates man.

00:43:09.380 He's willing to give you a little bit of what you want for now and let you pay the price, let you pay the consequences of it.

00:43:17.040 So it's really a very dangerous thing.

00:43:20.600 So you're not helping anybody when you're a psychic at all.

00:43:24.000 So when did you come out of it?

00:43:26.640 Was it a, you know, Saul on the road to Damascus, come to Jesus moment, or was it a, you're kind of starting to recognize something's off here?

00:43:35.600 I was, it was the end of my 36th year, so I was late in the game already.

00:43:40.540 And let me tell you something, the demonic oppression on me in that moment was about to cause a destruction like no other in that moment.

00:43:52.080 I'm not even going to call it the end of myself moment.

00:43:54.360 It was worse than that.

00:43:55.640 And I cried out to Jesus Christ.

00:43:58.140 And I know now that's really the Holy Spirit who even was able to nudge my heart to draw me to do that.

00:44:04.340 And I just cried out.

00:44:05.600 I cried out his name.

00:44:06.500 And I had a peace that came over me all of a sudden.

00:44:11.240 And of course, like anybody might say, well, you don't know what that peace was, whatever.

00:44:15.380 No, I knew that was Jesus.

00:44:18.840 But, so no, it was not a Paul.

00:44:20.880 It was not a Saul Paul conversion because this took a little bit of time.

00:44:24.440 I hadn't heard the gospel.

00:44:26.040 I hadn't read the Bible.

00:44:27.640 I just, yeah, no, no.

00:44:29.400 I mean, I know people say, well, what do you mean?

00:44:32.380 You went to church.

00:44:33.440 I mean, I was culturally Catholic.

00:44:35.960 That's how I was raised.

00:44:37.100 So, you know, we would do lasagna.

00:44:39.100 We would do the pasta.

00:44:40.100 Christmas Eve, maybe, definitely Christmas Day, sometimes, some Christmases, not every.

00:44:46.740 So, no, I really, that's why I say I didn't know that I was a sinner that needed a Savior.

00:44:51.480 I didn't know that I had broken God's law.

00:44:53.340 You know, I didn't know any of that.

00:44:54.500 So, I cry out to Jesus.

00:44:56.460 He shows up, and I don't know what any of this means, but I knew that I didn't want to be a psychic anymore, but I didn't know why.

00:45:04.160 I had no idea why.

00:45:05.580 So, I'm like, okay, what do I do now?

00:45:07.560 So, I start reading books from the library just about experiences.

00:45:12.060 So, I further got deceived.

00:45:16.100 I read some really sketch books.

00:45:18.160 They were not good.

00:45:19.000 They were not good.

00:45:20.340 And so, I became what I call spiritually vulnerable for a period of time.

00:45:25.280 I stopped doing readings, but then I went back to it because it was all I knew.

00:45:30.340 It was, I wasn't convinced yet that it was bad.

00:45:34.060 I didn't know why I didn't want to do it anymore.

00:45:36.140 And I just changed the way I spoke.

00:45:38.560 In the beginning, I was like, listen, you know, there's a God, and God's in control.

00:45:44.340 And then I go into the reading.

00:45:48.220 But God didn't give up on me.

00:45:50.260 When I was, I turned 37, a friend came over from the divination group.

00:45:54.460 We had become very good friends.

00:45:55.780 I read her family, her friends.

00:45:57.820 She comes over for dinner, and little did I know, this woman had been saved since the last time I had seen her.

00:46:04.840 So, she starts telling me about this church and about Jesus.

00:46:07.740 And I'm like, nah, I'm good.

00:46:09.180 You go to your church.

00:46:10.000 I'm like, what?

00:46:11.100 I passed.

00:46:12.040 I passed on the church.

00:46:13.260 I passed on the whole thing.

00:46:14.700 I said no.

00:46:16.000 And then a month later, I woke up on a Sunday, and I said, I want to go with you to that church today.

00:46:22.700 I don't know why, but I want to go.

00:46:25.380 And that was the day that Jesus really reached me.

00:46:28.040 He reached me.

00:46:29.120 I'm singing this song, Jesus Saved Me, and I flashed back.

00:46:31.900 Now, this was 10 months later from that first moment that I cried out to him, always with the hands.

00:46:37.700 So, I'm Italian.

00:46:39.200 Yeah, this is, it's just part of the language.

00:46:42.800 You're used to this, because you know, yeah.

00:46:46.040 Yeah, and I'm singing, and Jesus Saved Me, and I flashed back to that moment, and it was like him giving me that confirmation.

00:46:53.900 And the Holy Spirit just came into my heart, and I heard the gospel, and I was set free.

00:47:00.320 It was, I just started crying in that church.

00:47:03.120 I wonder if it's easier for people to convert from occultism than it is from atheism.

00:47:12.000 Oh, that's interesting.

00:47:12.740 Or is the opposite, you know, because at least you knew that, like, spirit is real.

00:47:17.040 You didn't think we're just bags of meat, you know.

00:47:19.040 You're kind of under, and you knew, and you'd had pretty vivid experiences of this.

00:47:22.840 So, I don't know, I don't know, or there's a deception that goes along with that, too, that maybe is harder to break out of.

00:47:30.100 Mm-hmm.

00:47:30.320 So, you come out of it, you now say, okay, that stuff's bad, I believe in our Lord, and, you know, want to be saved.

00:47:41.320 But you just lost your job.

00:47:43.380 It's not only that you lost your fake religion, you lost your job.

00:47:46.540 Yes.

00:47:47.240 I'm not going to say there wasn't a little anxiety there.

00:47:49.600 Yeah.

00:47:50.080 And I was the breadwinner at the time, and, but I couldn't, well, two things.

00:47:56.740 One, the gravity of my salvation, Michael, when I realized what Jesus set me free from,

00:48:02.460 because the first thing the Holy Spirit did was lead me to the Word of God.

00:48:05.340 I mean, I'm talking 15 minutes later after that church service.

00:48:08.040 I'm home now.

00:48:09.180 I'm Googling what does the Bible say about psychic mediums, and the list comes up, and I'm like, wow.

00:48:15.200 Yeah, shoot, I should have Googled this earlier.

00:48:17.740 And Deuteronomy 18, 10 to 12, which really gives us the practices that fall under witchcraft.

00:48:23.540 And the word medium was there, and I was like, God's talking to me.

00:48:27.480 That's me.

00:48:28.420 Wow.

00:48:29.140 I have to quit my job.

00:48:30.700 I just have to do it.

00:48:32.140 Jesus set me free.

00:48:33.360 If I had died as a psychic medium, you know where I was going.

00:48:37.620 It was not to be with the Lord Jesus.

00:48:39.260 So he gave me that opportunity.

00:48:42.040 He gave me a chance to be saved and have eternal life.

00:48:46.240 Lord Jesus, wherever you lead me, I'm going, and I'm getting rid of whatever I have to get rid of.

00:48:51.000 And I did a full repentance.

00:48:52.400 I mean, I quit my job.

00:48:55.080 I met with the pastor of that church, and he was cool.

00:48:57.800 He was like, look, I don't pay your bills.

00:49:00.220 He's like, but I'd be a bad pastor if I told you to continue, you know, being a psychic.

00:49:05.560 And I'm like, no, I already made the decision.

00:49:07.480 I can't do it.

00:49:08.320 It's clearly against God.

00:49:09.940 I mean, he's clear from the beginning of the word to the end of it.

00:49:12.500 And I know that's not because he's an angry grandpa.

00:49:15.020 He's not trying to be a buzzkill.

00:49:17.000 It's because it's to protect us, because it's demonic.

00:49:19.840 Do you miss it ever?

00:49:22.260 Never.

00:49:22.780 You don't?

00:49:23.360 No.

00:49:23.700 You don't miss the feeling of, I had this power or this special thing, this secret knowledge?

00:49:28.880 No.

00:49:29.480 I don't miss doing anything for the devil.

00:49:32.680 I couldn't.

00:49:34.060 I love the Lord, Michael.

00:49:35.320 So it's not a temptation.

00:49:36.080 But in that, a guy could be a crack addict and recognize, okay, this is terrible for me.

00:49:43.800 And maybe let's say his giving it up is part of a religious conversion.

00:49:49.520 So it's really all grounded in God.

00:49:50.760 But he'll still, if there's crack on the table, he might still be tempted by it.

00:49:54.540 Right.

00:49:54.960 Or with lust or, I don't know, or like five cupcakes on the table.

00:49:58.980 It would be the same thing if your sin is gluttony.

00:50:00.900 You don't feel that pull?

00:50:02.760 No.

00:50:03.120 And I wonder if it's because, if you think about it, you can't drink from the cup of

00:50:06.780 the Lord and the cup of demons, right?

00:50:08.500 So you can't serve God and the devil at the same time.

00:50:10.840 If you have a sin like that, an addiction rather, a bondage, a chain, like drugs or food,

00:50:16.740 it's a sin, but it's not directly serving the devil.

00:50:21.320 Do you know what I mean by that?

00:50:22.760 I mean.

00:50:23.100 It's not so direct, whereas like, you know, when you're a psychic medium, you're, I guess

00:50:30.500 the sin there would be pride, which is the queen of all vice, and you're like literally.

00:50:35.640 You're literally communicating with demons.

00:50:37.400 You're like, hi.

00:50:38.820 You know, it's like.

00:50:40.020 It's hard to just dabble in that one.

00:50:41.600 Yeah.

00:50:41.980 Like if you're a glutton and you eat the cupcake, it's like, okay, I'm sorry, Lord.

00:50:46.260 I need your help with this.

00:50:47.960 But if you're making a choice to talk to a demon, I mean.

00:50:51.700 It's a little more clear and extreme.

00:50:53.880 Yeah.

00:50:54.300 That's a good point.

00:50:55.400 So you've come out of it now.

00:50:59.500 And I suppose also back when you were a medium, you could say, well, I can bring you this kind

00:51:05.740 of hope and that I'll talk to your dead uncle or something.

00:51:08.220 But now you can say, look, I'm not really a part.

00:51:12.040 I'm not special exactly, but I can bring you a real hope, which is grounded in history

00:51:18.400 and the incarnation and the resurrection, the crucifixion and the resurrection, which

00:51:23.000 is just called evangelism.

00:51:24.920 That's what all Christians are called to do.

00:51:27.120 It's a little more grounded, I guess.

00:51:28.960 I love it.

00:51:29.620 Because the thing that's really striking about you, and if I didn't already believe that

00:51:33.320 the psychic stuff is real, I would probably believe it talking to you because you seem

00:51:37.780 normal.

00:51:38.540 Thank you.

00:51:39.740 And I've noticed this.

00:51:41.300 On this series, we've disproportionately, even if we didn't start out this way, we end up

00:51:45.500 talking about spiritual topics.

00:51:47.860 And talking to you, or talking to my exorcist friend, Father Rehill, the thing that strikes

00:51:54.080 you when you talk to exorcists is how not weird they are.

00:51:57.680 Right.

00:51:58.180 They sound like plumbers when they talk about their job.

00:52:01.300 Wow.

00:52:01.840 And I find this even if I get a little bit, I don't know, a little spooked.

00:52:04.600 I feel like there's something a little off.

00:52:07.700 I just say a prayer.

00:52:09.620 Often I'll say the St. Michael prayer, which was Pope Leo XIII wrote it in a flash, in a

00:52:16.880 flash of inspiration because he seemed to believe that the occult was really on the rise.

00:52:22.760 And the prayer is, St. Michael the archangel, defend us in battle, be our defense against

00:52:25.460 the wickedness and snares of the devil.

00:52:27.120 May God rebuke him, we humbly pray.

00:52:28.800 And do thou, Prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and

00:52:32.140 all the evil spirits, who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls.

00:52:36.380 And so really, it encapsulates a lot of what we're talking about with spiritual warfare.

00:52:41.100 And, but I just say it and then I think, I don't know, to me I think of the demons like

00:52:44.140 they're bugs, like they're cockroaches.

00:52:45.940 I don't like them.

00:52:46.840 I don't want to see them.

00:52:47.840 I don't, I'm not that scared of them, but I'm not, you know, I'm not, I'm still a little

00:52:52.120 bit scared of them.

00:52:52.660 Like I don't want, I don't want them around me, you know.

00:52:54.860 And, and there's something really matter of fact about that.

00:52:57.140 Um, I'm, I appreciate what you said.

00:53:01.440 First of all, thank you that you feel, uh, that I'm relatable.

00:53:04.500 And I think that's what you're trying to say.

00:53:06.580 Yes.

00:53:06.600 Yeah.

00:53:06.940 Um, and you don't seem kooky.

00:53:08.200 You don't seem weird.

00:53:09.200 I'm literally like, I go on my TikTok live with a cup of coffee and, um, you know, uh,

00:53:15.280 and, and I want to be relatable and share my experiences so that people do understand how

00:53:20.820 real it is and the danger of it.

00:53:23.400 And it is, the devil is prowling around seeking to whom he may devour.

00:53:27.700 I mean, he is, I mean, the Bible tells us that, but it's true.

00:53:30.600 This is a real and present danger.

00:53:33.640 And, um, I don't mean to go off, you know, veer off a little bit, but, um, you know, especially

00:53:38.740 with the spiritual blindness that we're seeing, um, today in our world, you know, this godless

00:53:44.880 world.

00:53:45.260 And as God is, you know, shoved over here, you know, the devil is being, um, front and center.

00:53:50.660 You know, you can see it in the culture, but, um, uh, yeah, I think.

00:53:54.620 It's not just that God is being shoved to the side by people who are, you know, actively

00:53:59.780 doing the work of demons or consciously doing it.

00:54:03.200 It's so much more subtle and, and sad.

00:54:07.140 Yeah.

00:54:07.600 The separation of church and state.

00:54:09.040 Yeah.

00:54:09.680 This is something that our founding fathers did not establish.

00:54:12.600 The line comes from one letter from Thomas Jefferson, who was one of the bigger libs among

00:54:16.760 the founding fathers, but they were all, John Adams said that the country is going to be

00:54:21.100 grounded in Christian morality.

00:54:22.440 John Jay said, thank goodness, this is a Christian nation.

00:54:24.860 You know, we've got one nation under God in our currency.

00:54:27.460 It's in the national anthem.

00:54:28.620 You know, America understood itself as a Christian nation for most of our history until the middle

00:54:35.560 of the 20th century.

00:54:36.420 We start with this idea, we're a liberal democracy.

00:54:38.280 We need a separation of church and state.

00:54:40.080 Well, okay.

00:54:40.980 If you're saying we're going to banish God from the public square, good luck.

00:54:45.020 So, let's see how that works out for you.

00:54:47.260 Right?

00:54:47.780 It hasn't worked out very well in my experience.

00:54:49.940 Right.

00:54:50.260 Exactly.

00:54:50.980 Exactly.

00:54:51.820 And that is, I think, what's making it so prevalent today, the witchcraft, if I may.

00:54:58.900 It's, yeah, because you're not seeing, you're not seeing the Lord front and center.

00:55:06.940 Like I said, you're not.

00:55:08.000 So, it just, hey, okay, so here you go.

00:55:10.860 I mean, is the nation under God's judgment?

00:55:12.780 I think I was watching, well, I was watching, I'm pretty sure John McArthur said that in

00:55:17.880 one of his sermons during the time of the C word.

00:55:23.420 You know, that.

00:55:23.800 The unutterable five-letter C word.

00:55:26.040 I didn't say it.

00:55:26.780 Nobody heard me.

00:55:27.540 Didn't say a thing.

00:55:28.960 But being under God's judgment, I mean, it's like, hey, you know, okay, you want to live

00:55:33.180 this way?

00:55:33.760 You want to do things without me?

00:55:35.100 Go for it.

00:55:35.960 You know, and like you said, how do you like it now?

00:55:38.560 How's it going?

00:55:39.180 Right.

00:55:39.400 You know, there's the psychic aspect to all of this, but you mentioned something at the

00:55:47.180 top, which is there are sometimes physical manifestations of this occult stuff that you've

00:55:56.520 experienced.

00:55:57.340 And I think that's a level where some people will say, okay, now I really don't believe,

00:56:02.160 I don't believe that someone could be thrown out of a chair.

00:56:04.560 I don't believe that lights could flicker on and off without a natural explanation.

00:56:09.380 But you've seen it.

00:56:10.460 I've seen it.

00:56:11.620 And I still see it from time to time.

00:56:14.460 So let me explain that.

00:56:16.420 As a Christian, we are not exempt from demonic oppression, right?

00:56:22.780 So we can go through a spiritual attack.

00:56:25.100 And I've gone through some spiritual attacks, even, you know, fairly recently.

00:56:32.480 The difference is for me, of course, then I know to call upon the name of Jesus and, you

00:56:37.600 know, put on the armor of God and pray and read the Bible more and do all that kind of

00:56:41.900 stuff.

00:56:42.260 But I've had sleep paralysis.

00:56:44.280 I've had a psychic attack a couple months ago.

00:56:48.260 What's that like?

00:56:48.880 So a psychic attack, this all happened in one day.

00:56:51.740 I actually, so I had a dream in the morning.

00:56:53.600 Now, the thing with the dreaming is that it's not that the devil is, you know, getting into

00:56:58.460 your mind.

00:56:59.700 That's not what he's doing.

00:57:00.540 He's not slipping into your brain.

00:57:02.260 That would be like a possession.

00:57:04.040 Rather, I say that you're kind of in like in between states.

00:57:07.200 And whenever you're in like a vulnerable state, there you can be attacked.

00:57:11.460 Okay, you're vulnerable.

00:57:12.600 Your guard isn't up.

00:57:13.400 Do you know what I mean?

00:57:13.960 Oh, I do.

00:57:14.980 In that I'm much less prone to vice and a little bit better at practicing virtue most of

00:57:21.780 the time, unless I'm really overworked or really tired or really stressed or really,

00:57:27.420 those are the moments when I feel I'm more, I'll lose my temper or something.

00:57:32.780 When I'm in my daily life, I'm a lot better at it.

00:57:37.240 But there are these moments when, you know, you're vulnerable.

00:57:40.080 Yeah, definitely.

00:57:41.580 And so that happened.

00:57:44.440 I believe that's the state that you're in, sometimes in these dream states, or you're

00:57:49.280 half awake, half asleep, whatever.

00:57:50.900 So I had this dream.

00:57:52.960 And the dream was the dream.

00:57:54.980 You know, I was with my aunt and uncle.

00:57:57.300 And then I was, then my cousin popped in the dream.

00:58:00.900 And she's like, hey, I want you to come with me this weekend on a cruise to Aruba or whatever.

00:58:06.980 I'm like, you know, I don't like boats.

00:58:08.120 I'm not going on this cruise, but I'm fine.

00:58:10.300 Leave it alone.

00:58:11.400 I didn't even think about the dream.

00:58:13.260 And I had been thinking about seeing my aunt and uncle.

00:58:15.680 So I'm like, okay, that's just, you know, day residue.

00:58:18.360 You know, I was thinking about seeing them.

00:58:20.720 Later that day, I saw a demon manifested on my front porch.

00:58:26.700 And it was kind of a gray figure.

00:58:29.820 And here's the thing.

00:58:30.700 It's not how we are third dimensional, you know, how we're solid like that.

00:58:39.800 You can see a figure.

00:58:41.380 But it's misty.

00:58:42.420 So it's not like, and I wouldn't call it a ghost.

00:58:44.580 I'd call it a demon.

00:58:46.260 And later that night, I was talking to my cousin on the phone, her brother.

00:58:51.600 And he said, oh, Jen, you know, you really should come.

00:58:54.660 I said, yeah, I had the dream.

00:58:55.820 I think it's because I'm thinking about it or whatever.

00:58:57.520 And he said, no, you really should come.

00:58:59.580 But not this weekend because Angela's going on a cruise to Aruba or a trip to Aruba or whatever.

00:59:05.320 And I'm like, oh, no, no.

00:59:08.200 Why did I?

00:59:09.580 And I know that might sound so mundane.

00:59:12.260 But it's something I had no idea about.

00:59:15.000 And that was, I mean, that was like right there.

00:59:16.940 And I saw the demon that day.

00:59:18.140 That's a psychic attack right there.

00:59:19.080 No, no.

00:59:19.820 Because for a drug addict, if he gets a temptation in a dream, he's thinking about drugs.

00:59:25.660 Or, you know, a guy who deals with lust, he has a temptation in a dream.

00:59:30.580 It's going to be a chick in a bikini.

00:59:32.580 For a former psychic medium who has a temptation in a dream, what's it going to be?

00:59:38.580 I assume it's going to be a temptation.

00:59:40.640 Right.

00:59:41.460 Toward psychic readings, which is what happened.

00:59:45.720 Yeah, I don't know.

00:59:46.720 Well, I don't know if I would have called it a temptation, though.

00:59:50.080 You had literally just got one.

00:59:51.600 I was, yeah.

00:59:52.420 It was just, but it made sense because the whole thing was a demonic attack.

00:59:57.840 I've also had where I was up in the middle of the night and I heard a demon, but it sounded

01:00:03.780 like my dad's voice talking to me.

01:00:05.900 And I know that sounds, I know I'm really putting myself out there because I probably

01:00:08.800 sound crazy.

01:00:09.820 Yeah, I believe all this stuff.

01:00:11.600 I mean, I believe people can be deceived, too, but I believe all this stuff is possible.

01:00:14.420 Yeah.

01:00:15.080 At this point, though, you know what it is?

01:00:16.620 I have good discernment.

01:00:17.960 I can tell when something is demonic and when something is not.

01:00:20.980 And I don't think there's a demon behind every corner.

01:00:23.140 Yeah, yeah.

01:00:23.520 I mean, I'm not that person, like, you know, but when I see it and I hear it, I know it

01:00:28.480 because I lived it for years.

01:00:30.260 I can tell the difference.

01:00:32.120 If I get so serious about it, I can tell the difference.

01:00:34.640 I'm not a crazy person.

01:00:36.080 No offense to anybody who is, but that's not what this is.

01:00:39.520 There is a demonic war.

01:00:42.580 There's a demonic battle.

01:00:43.720 There's a demonic attack.

01:00:44.680 We know that Ephesians 6.12 tells us we don't wrestle against flesh and blood.

01:00:49.140 Right.

01:00:49.600 We wrestle against the principalities, the cosmic powers, and the darkness in the heavenly places.

01:00:55.580 Guys, that's a, guys, I'm like on my TikTok.

01:00:57.800 Michael, that is a rank of demons.

01:01:01.840 That's what's out there.

01:01:02.900 That's what's, it's an invisible battle, but it is being fought, and we are part of it.

01:01:07.360 When you talk about the gray, shadowy figure, I'm reminded, Alistair Crowley, the infamous

01:01:13.800 occultist and Satanist, he did a sketch once of a demon.

01:01:18.260 He had this vision of a demon, and he just sketched out the demon, and the demon looked,

01:01:24.340 his vision of a demon looked like what we would call aliens, like little gray, little

01:01:29.420 green men, you know, with big eyes and a big head, and it just looked like out of any

01:01:33.340 alien movie.

01:01:35.560 Wow.

01:01:36.900 But...

01:01:37.360 Also, it was dark and shadowy and gray, and kind of like what you're describing.

01:01:40.820 Wow, interesting.

01:01:41.660 I never saw any of his work.

01:01:43.700 Thank God.

01:01:44.400 I don't recommend it, but it is spooky in that you hear about all of these now paranormal

01:01:49.980 UFO type things.

01:01:52.200 I think the UFO stuff is nonsense, but...

01:01:53.860 I agree with you.

01:01:54.580 I think the notion of extraterrestrial aliens is nonsense, but...

01:01:56.460 Totally agree.

01:01:57.120 You do.

01:01:57.900 Yeah.

01:01:58.000 So, you know...

01:01:59.000 So, is that demons?

01:02:00.780 I think...

01:02:01.520 Or is it just people...

01:02:02.360 I don't know how you do...

01:02:03.100 I think that if you're somebody that you see something yourself, like you see something

01:02:11.500 manifest, that could possibly be a demon.

01:02:13.800 And I don't mean like you're seeing a spaceship or something, and you're seeing a little guy

01:02:17.820 come...

01:02:18.100 No.

01:02:18.280 I mean, really, like you're seeing flickering lights or something like that when you're

01:02:23.780 outside or whatever.

01:02:25.200 I mean, I'm really stretching this.

01:02:27.600 But I think it's mostly nonsense.

01:02:29.880 That's what I think.

01:02:30.620 Yeah.

01:02:31.060 The alien UFO stuff.

01:02:32.200 People are just kind of...

01:02:33.600 You know, you can imagine things.

01:02:34.780 People hallucinate.

01:02:35.800 And I love how that's so acceptable, too.

01:02:37.740 But God...

01:02:38.560 No, not so much.

01:02:39.720 Aliens are great.

01:02:40.980 It's like, what's happening?

01:02:42.540 Well, I always say aliens, it's just angels and demons for liberals, for materialists who

01:02:49.360 refuse to believe in spiritual things.

01:02:51.040 So they say, oh, it's got to be...

01:02:52.600 I believe in every single religious or mythical story I've ever heard in history, but they've

01:02:57.700 got to have like green flesh.

01:02:59.440 As long as they have green flesh in spaceships, it's totally fine.

01:03:03.860 But this continues to happen to you.

01:03:05.600 And when I reverted from atheism to the church, it was the most intense, bizarre period of

01:03:14.440 vexation, temptation in my whole life.

01:03:18.060 And I've heard this from a lot of people, though, that it's at that moment when you might

01:03:24.140 be making a change and pursuing a better path, that's when all the guns are going to be aimed

01:03:28.920 at you.

01:03:29.780 Yes, absolutely.

01:03:30.880 And actually, and a lot of people ask me this, when I was set free and I quit my job as a

01:03:37.700 psychic medium, I started counseling with the pastor at that church that I started going

01:03:42.860 to.

01:03:44.080 And so how it worked was there were three pastors.

01:03:47.600 Senior pastor was away one week.

01:03:49.760 And so this pastor, the one that was counseling me, he was saying the sermon.

01:03:53.960 I was so excited to get into church.

01:03:55.460 I'm only like a few weeks in.

01:03:56.720 I'm a baby Christian.

01:03:58.200 I'm there in church, so excited.

01:03:59.860 And my pastor, who was counseling me, Pastor Jonathan, he comes up there to say the sermon.

01:04:05.200 I don't know that they, you know, take turns.

01:04:07.460 Like, I don't know how this works, right?

01:04:09.460 And he starts saying the sermon.

01:04:11.900 Michael, everything, I mean, I started getting information about him psychically.

01:04:16.720 And I thought, you know, I didn't know the deal.

01:04:18.960 I didn't know about the spiritual battle.

01:04:20.520 I thought once I repented, I was just, okay, we're done.

01:04:23.720 Bye.

01:04:24.260 See you later.

01:04:24.800 We're, you know, no, I was attacked spiritually, psychically, sitting there, information about

01:04:32.840 Pastor Jonathan.

01:04:34.120 I really felt like I was freaking out.

01:04:36.000 I felt like, why is this happening to me?

01:04:37.740 I felt scared.

01:04:39.440 Was I doing something wrong?

01:04:40.920 And I met with him that Tuesday, like I always would.

01:04:45.480 And I was hesitant to tell him because I thought, like, am I, like, a bad Christian?

01:04:51.080 Like, what, you know?

01:04:52.840 And I thank God that I really was driven by the Holy Spirit to tell him and not be isolated

01:04:58.400 with that, another scheme of the devil, I'm sure.

01:05:00.960 And I told him.

01:05:01.820 And he said, well, you can tell me what was said.

01:05:05.200 We won't give the demon any glory.

01:05:06.700 But you can just tell me what was said.

01:05:08.860 I repeated.

01:05:09.720 I told him what information I got.

01:05:11.700 He said, I'm not going to lie.

01:05:12.600 That hit a nerve.

01:05:14.160 He said, I'm not going to lie to you.

01:05:15.980 He's like, but, you know, how the devil does things is always like what you said in the

01:05:21.400 beginning.

01:05:21.860 You know, there's going to be some truth with the lies and how he twists things.

01:05:25.360 But there's always going to be something there.

01:05:27.400 But what, is he giving you information like, you know, Jonathan just baked a pie for the

01:05:32.140 widow across the street?

01:05:33.020 Or is he saying, no, this guy did this sin and he's a really bad guy?

01:05:36.100 No, it was something about his life when he was a child and particular relationships that

01:05:42.320 he had and the feelings he had about those relationships.

01:05:45.760 I know this guy, like, what at this point?

01:05:47.640 I don't know, four weeks?

01:05:49.180 He's counseling me.

01:05:50.600 I'm not interviewing him about his family.

01:05:52.500 I know nothing about his family.

01:05:55.220 I'm just going there to listen to the sermon.

01:05:57.380 That's all I'm doing, right?

01:05:59.320 And I got that information.

01:06:00.800 And it was really personal.

01:06:02.860 And that's why I'm sure it hit the nerve that it did for him.

01:06:07.860 But at least then, thank God I gave him that and we were able to talk about it because then

01:06:13.220 he was able to help me with the power of prayer and, you know, and what to do applying those

01:06:20.200 biblical principles when you're being attacked.

01:06:22.580 So, this notion that the psychics, when they're hearing from demons, it's truth that you can

01:06:31.560 point to that will spook people out because you say, we were three, you know, this happened,

01:06:35.380 with falsehood.

01:06:37.340 Yeah.

01:06:38.960 What's the percentage?

01:06:40.400 I mean, how much deception is there and how much truth is there?

01:06:45.600 Okay.

01:06:45.920 Well, anything that they report that has already happened, they can report that.

01:06:50.900 That's going to be true, of course.

01:06:52.160 That's going to be 100% accurate.

01:06:55.100 In order to prove to the person that it's real.

01:06:57.400 Right.

01:06:57.800 Now, everything else that they say, because now you're hanging on to every word that comes

01:07:02.140 out of their mouth now, right?

01:07:03.180 Because they were able to tell you what you did last week.

01:07:05.140 They were able to tell you your mom and dad and things like Dante and this, that, and the

01:07:09.900 other, right?

01:07:10.660 Now, you're like, oh, okay.

01:07:12.060 I wonder what else they're going to say.

01:07:13.380 So anything that's a prediction is already a lie.

01:07:17.280 Even if they end up coming true, Michael, and I'll tell you why.

01:07:20.500 Because they don't know everything only God does.

01:07:23.240 Only God does.

01:07:24.160 Right.

01:07:24.380 But can they, are they good guessers?

01:07:26.440 Absolutely.

01:07:27.140 Do they get their hand in it by manipulating, by almost creating the atmosphere, the climate

01:07:34.220 for you to do, you know, kind of like a self-fulfilling prophecy, you know what I mean?

01:07:39.900 Right.

01:07:40.260 So like you almost end up doing the thing like the girl with the Ouija board.

01:07:43.720 Right.

01:07:44.120 The girl who, you know, if she's, especially the way she died, it's not so much a prediction

01:07:49.240 as a, you know, a push, right?

01:07:51.400 A push, yeah.

01:07:52.100 Yeah.

01:07:52.560 Yeah.

01:07:53.260 But it's not true because they don't know everything.

01:07:56.680 Anything else could, I give this analogy, right?

01:07:59.380 Let's say, I mean, you know, you're married.

01:08:02.040 You know what your wife does Monday to Friday, I'm sure.

01:08:05.240 She does this for 364 days of the year.

01:08:08.560 On the 365th, you're going to be able to make a prediction.

01:08:12.280 Let's say it's fresh pasta night.

01:08:13.840 Yeah.

01:08:14.140 There you go.

01:08:14.820 Hopefully that's a push.

01:08:15.860 Hopefully.

01:08:15.980 I'd like the fresh pasta.

01:08:19.260 But you're going to have, you're going to make a prediction.

01:08:21.820 If I asked you to, you would say, well, at 6 a.m. she's going to do this, at 7 a.m.

01:08:25.460 But you're not God, right?

01:08:26.840 So you don't know for sure.

01:08:27.940 Yeah, yeah.

01:08:28.440 Something different can happen that day.

01:08:30.880 But you've seen, not that you're trying to study her like a creepy demon, Lord willing,

01:08:36.180 Michael.

01:08:37.540 I'm too oblivious for that.

01:08:39.020 It's not that I'm too virtuous, but I'm certainly too oblivious.

01:08:41.740 You didn't even notice that my hair got cut.

01:08:44.240 No, I noticed.

01:08:45.240 What are you talking about?

01:08:46.360 But you've seen, like, you know.

01:08:48.940 You know, this is somebody you know.

01:08:50.260 Like, you can give, better than anybody else, a good percentage of what she's going to do

01:08:54.540 on a Monday night.

01:08:55.840 Well, you know that.

01:08:56.320 You're married to someone for long enough.

01:08:57.520 You don't even, you could have a conversation just by looking at each other.

01:09:00.340 You know exactly, you know what he's going to say and she's going to say.

01:09:02.500 Yeah, yeah.

01:09:03.540 So if people can do that, Michael, you take something like demons, a creature that is

01:09:08.260 far more intelligent, sorry, human beings, but they are far more intelligent and far more

01:09:13.080 powerful.

01:09:14.220 And older.

01:09:15.080 And older.

01:09:16.960 There you go.

01:09:18.020 Right, right.

01:09:18.960 But I'm struck by what you're saying because there's, it seems like for everything you're

01:09:23.840 describing in the occult, psychic realm, there is a flip side in the saintly realm.

01:09:31.260 So, you know, you're sitting there and you're getting this weird psychic attack looking at

01:09:36.000 this guy, Pastor Jonathan.

01:09:39.360 There's a charism attested to by the great saints in history, which is the charism to read

01:09:44.220 souls.

01:09:44.580 And even people have encountered these sorts of, some of these people today who can have

01:09:52.160 an uncanny ability to just read a soul.

01:09:56.360 I don't know how else to say it.

01:09:58.080 And some of them are in religious orders.

01:10:00.480 Some of them are in the laity.

01:10:01.420 But, you know, it's just like, I don't know.

01:10:02.700 I don't have that charism, but some people have it.

01:10:04.400 Or, you know, the prophets, you know, before, before the incarnation, the prophets had an

01:10:12.300 ability in a way to tell the future, but also, you know, maybe the more important thing about

01:10:18.240 prophets is they see the truth in their own time.

01:10:21.880 You know, so the prophets really telling the truth more than he's predicting the future,

01:10:25.160 though you will see that resonate in the future.

01:10:26.980 Is it just a, like a weird mirror image?

01:10:32.860 Is that what we're saying?

01:10:33.440 Oh, no.

01:10:33.640 It's a deliberate counterfeit.

01:10:35.940 It's a deliberate counterfeit.

01:10:37.080 That's a good way to put it.

01:10:37.420 Deliberate.

01:10:37.920 The devil is a copycat.

01:10:42.400 Yeah.

01:10:42.840 You know, there's really no other way to say that.

01:10:44.820 He's a copycat.

01:10:45.580 And you are so right.

01:10:46.720 I just spoke about this recently with the new article about Raven-Symoné, and on her

01:10:54.060 podcast, she was talking about her psychic abilities.

01:10:56.780 Oh, was she?

01:10:57.680 The girl from The Cosby Show?

01:10:59.440 She's got psychic abilities?

01:11:00.420 Yes, she was.

01:11:01.280 She was later a stage Cosby Show.

01:11:02.480 She was the little one, wasn't she?

01:11:03.400 Yeah, she was the really little one.

01:11:04.580 Oh, was she?

01:11:05.180 Oh, yeah, that's right.

01:11:06.120 I keep thinking of her from That's So Raven because my daughter is 22, so she was, yeah.

01:11:11.540 And that's what killed me because you think about that nostalgic feeling towards some

01:11:15.200 of these celebrities that the youth has, and then now they're coming out and they're talking

01:11:19.460 about these things.

01:11:20.140 She's a psychic?

01:11:21.360 Oh, she has, she's addressing her psychic abilities that she's had for quite some time.

01:11:28.100 And one thing she brings up is spirit guides.

01:11:30.360 And so when you're talking about that, I'm thinking about the counterfeit.

01:11:33.800 And to me, a spirit guide is a counter, it's a demon, first of all.

01:11:38.480 All psychics, New Agers have spirit guides, like I said before, to filter in and out good

01:11:44.240 and bad spirits, give you psychic information about yourself, lead you and guide you in

01:11:50.520 wisdom and truth.

01:11:52.060 Doesn't that sound a little bit, minus the psychic part, like the Holy Spirit, like to

01:11:56.420 lead us into truth and good decisions and wisdom?

01:12:00.580 That's who the devil is, though.

01:12:01.840 And he's been doing this for ages.

01:12:03.800 He's a big copycat, even if you think of the Exodus, right?

01:12:06.320 When God called Moses with the staff, and then Pharaoh called in the sorcerers to come

01:12:14.400 in, right?

01:12:15.380 And they're trying to...

01:12:16.000 And they do their tricks, too, by the sorcerers.

01:12:17.980 You know, that's kind of the odd thing, is they also performed all sorts of weird little...

01:12:22.160 Yeah, they did.

01:12:23.020 But that's what was cool about, and I hate to say it this way, but it is, isn't God cool?

01:12:28.000 It was cool how God showed how he was the only one true God with the ten plagues.

01:12:31.820 Because every time...

01:12:33.020 Because they had a God for denial, a God for flies, a God for...

01:12:37.440 Where's your God now?

01:12:38.540 Yeah.

01:12:38.800 You know, like...

01:12:39.680 Right.

01:12:40.020 But that is...

01:12:42.300 He's a trickster, the devil.

01:12:44.320 He's a manipulator.

01:12:45.360 He's a deceiver.

01:12:46.280 He's a liar.

01:12:46.980 And he's a copycat.

01:12:48.080 And like you mentioned before, which is 2 Corinthians 11, 14, and 15, Satan masquerades.

01:12:53.780 And that's what people need to know, Michael.

01:12:55.620 What all of us need to know.

01:12:57.360 Because we can all be duped.

01:12:58.720 He masquerades as an angel of light.

01:13:01.220 An angel is a messenger.

01:13:02.980 So you've got to be so super discerning when you hear something that somebody is saying

01:13:07.040 or doing, because again, you're not fighting against the flesh and blood, but what are they

01:13:10.960 operating under?

01:13:11.960 What spirits are they operating under, right?

01:13:14.100 So if he's putting on a mask, hey, I'm your mom or dad.

01:13:17.780 I'm coming through in this reading.

01:13:19.180 No, you're a demon.

01:13:20.080 We have to be so on guard.

01:13:24.180 Yeah.

01:13:24.980 There's this modern notion that in pre-Christian civilizations, all these people, they had such

01:13:34.000 weird, bizarre mythological systems.

01:13:36.520 They'd worship Jupiter or they'd have Bacchanals or they would worship Apollo or Athena or something.

01:13:42.660 Or the Middle Eastern worship the balls or whoever.

01:13:47.620 And boy, isn't that really kooky?

01:13:48.980 What does that say about those people that they would worship those gods that aren't

01:13:52.200 real?

01:13:53.640 But in a way, they are real, right?

01:13:56.920 They're demons.

01:13:58.060 The traditional view, I think the Augustinian view and the view that prevailed until recent

01:14:03.680 modern times, our very stupid times that we're living in, is that no, they're real and these

01:14:10.000 guys just worship demons and the demons would kind of help them a little bit.

01:14:12.800 Not ultimately.

01:14:13.380 Ultimately, they'd really mess them up.

01:14:14.740 But they were real and the worship that these pagan peoples, past and present, would give

01:14:22.660 to them is real and there would be something that would come out of that, like a psychic

01:14:28.360 medium, like, I don't know.

01:14:31.420 Manifesting.

01:14:32.460 Like manifesting, whatever.

01:14:33.960 It's real.

01:14:34.260 Well, and so now we're in this new age, we're told, and I interviewed a guy on this show

01:14:41.140 not long ago who calls himself a shaman.

01:14:45.760 What struck me is he's a very intelligent guy, obviously, and he would say some things

01:14:50.980 that were true and some things that were coherent, but mixed in with a lot of things that are

01:14:58.800 very much not true or other things that just seem kind of bizarre.

01:15:02.960 And he wouldn't call himself a new ager, but he would literally use the language and say,

01:15:07.060 we're in a new age.

01:15:08.180 And, you know, he was a new ager.

01:15:11.840 I have friends and relatives who are into the new age stuff.

01:15:14.760 It's, it's, I think it's a lot more pervasive than people are willing to admit.

01:15:20.380 Yeah.

01:15:21.560 Do you think that, though?

01:15:22.860 Actually, I'm saying, yeah, but, oh, I see what you, yeah.

01:15:26.800 Because I, I would say out of 10 people, probably eight are into it, right?

01:15:32.400 That's what I mean, yeah.

01:15:33.440 But I wouldn't have said, I would have thought, like, if you ask people, hey, are you a new

01:15:38.800 ager, nine out of 10 would say no.

01:15:41.280 But even, I'm certainly not a new ager.

01:15:43.660 But I'll say, hey, man, stop harshing my vibes.

01:15:46.660 And I'll say it somewhat ironically, but vibes refers to vibrations, right?

01:15:51.380 It refers to an actual new age concept.

01:15:54.360 Right.

01:15:54.640 And we all do that kind of stuff, right?

01:15:57.100 Don't we all, just even in our quotidian language, we do that.

01:16:00.720 Yeah.

01:16:01.280 Yeah, we do.

01:16:02.260 And then hopefully we realize and then we don't do it again.

01:16:04.560 Yeah.

01:16:05.320 You know, but, but you're absolutely right.

01:16:07.360 Those people won't say they're new agers.

01:16:09.720 They'll just say they're spiritual.

01:16:11.680 Right.

01:16:12.400 Wow.

01:16:12.720 Right.

01:16:13.660 You know it.

01:16:15.280 That's what they'll say.

01:16:16.040 They'll say they're spiritual.

01:16:17.420 They're just spiritual.

01:16:18.580 I've often mocked the phrase, I'm spiritual but not religious.

01:16:21.620 But maybe one ought to be harsher with that phrase.

01:16:25.060 Because practically speaking, it just is synonymous with, I practice new age occultism.

01:16:33.220 Yeah.

01:16:34.100 Yeah, because you're not even willing to say, like, if you asked me, I wouldn't, if you,

01:16:38.400 I'm Christian, I'm not just spiritual.

01:16:42.160 Is there a spiritual?

01:16:43.260 Of course there's a spiritual.

01:16:44.280 I mean, but that, oh no, I know who I subscribe to.

01:16:47.220 They say, I'm religious.

01:16:48.080 They say, are you spiritual?

01:16:49.020 I say, I'm religious.

01:16:50.020 Because what's religion?

01:16:50.860 Religion is a habit that inclines the will to render to God.

01:16:56.460 It's a virtue that inclines the will to render to God that which is owed to him.

01:17:00.220 Mm-hmm.

01:17:01.140 Amen.

01:17:01.780 Is it?

01:17:02.200 And I add on and say, I have a relationship with my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

01:17:07.920 And how loving, and you think about that, I hate to say down to earth, but that Jesus

01:17:13.700 wants to have a relationship with us.

01:17:16.640 How amazing is that?

01:17:18.240 That God's not just some puppeteer and dangling us around, but that we have a choice to come

01:17:26.260 to him willingly.

01:17:27.660 And he wants that.

01:17:28.620 He wants us to come to him willingly.

01:17:30.540 On your point of the cheap counterfeits, we've had throughout the church, from the very beginning,

01:17:35.900 since Christ walked the earth, sacraments.

01:17:39.680 What is a sacrament?

01:17:40.460 A sacrament is the meaning of the physical and the metaphysical.

01:17:42.440 It's a thing that we do and that we receive that has a physical component and a spiritual

01:17:51.720 and metaphysical meaning that's alive, that's really happening.

01:17:54.360 And so you think of Holy Communion or you think of confession or you think of baptism, obviously

01:18:02.820 baptism.

01:18:04.480 Well, the New Age, the weird occult psychic stuff, they have pseudo-sacraments too, the

01:18:08.720 tarot cards, the readings, the crystals, the sage, but it's just a cheap knockoff for

01:18:14.260 the real presence of the living God.

01:18:19.120 Rituals.

01:18:19.580 They have rituals, the New Age.

01:18:22.380 You know I'm not Catholic, so you're informing me of things about, but the New Age, these

01:18:30.560 practices are very ritualistic.

01:18:33.140 And the fact that I even had to look back, honestly, I was just the girl next door.

01:18:37.520 I wasn't dressed up in scary-looking clothes and things like that.

01:18:41.800 All this to say that, looking back and realize, I was practicing witchcraft.

01:18:45.860 Yeah.

01:18:46.440 And you just couldn't even see it.

01:18:47.900 Wow.

01:18:48.560 Yeah.

01:18:49.000 The whole thing, even in that divination group, even when I did my own or when I did readings,

01:18:53.020 I had a ritual.

01:18:54.680 Light the candle.

01:18:55.760 Light the sage.

01:18:58.220 I used to get hired to go into people's houses.

01:19:00.700 This is crazy because so many people think this, right?

01:19:04.800 I used to get hired to go into people's houses, smudge the house, and read, like, channel

01:19:11.260 while I was smudging to see what souls were trapped in the house.

01:19:16.040 So you would call that, like, haunted, like a haunted house, right?

01:19:19.020 And you see these shows now, a lot of the shows, right?

01:19:21.820 They're going out with all their paraphernalia, like, their paranormal, like, the little radio,

01:19:26.160 the lights on their head, and they're going in there because they're believing that demons,

01:19:31.300 rather, I'm sorry, that people, they don't, I don't know if any of them call them

01:19:34.760 demons, but that there's activity.

01:19:38.200 Vanessa Hutchins was at, like, a cemetery, cemetery with Gigi Hadid, and they're there.

01:19:47.120 Hey, how are you?

01:19:49.060 I'm Vanessa Hutchins.

01:19:50.200 Who are you?

01:19:50.900 And anyway, that was a whole long thing.

01:19:54.840 No, but it's so striking because I didn't even notice this, right?

01:19:58.060 I don't even see half the thing.

01:19:59.100 I see them, and it doesn't even register how weird it is.

01:20:03.820 And especially now, we look back at history, and people always say, oh, those awful people

01:20:08.920 in the past.

01:20:09.800 I would have been so much better had I been around them.

01:20:12.780 And one of the moments that keeps cropping up is the Salem witch trials, which were a

01:20:18.320 bit odd, and it was these kind of more eccentric Puritans who practiced this thing.

01:20:24.680 In the great history of Christianity, witch trials are a little bit of an odd thing.

01:20:30.560 But it raises this question, you raise this question, which is, would you know a witch

01:20:37.900 if you saw one?

01:20:39.160 You don't look like a witch.

01:20:40.820 No.

01:20:41.120 But you were practicing witchcraft.

01:20:42.140 I don't know.

01:20:42.580 Yes.

01:20:43.100 Would you really?

01:20:43.820 No.

01:20:44.980 The answer is, you're right.

01:20:46.540 You're making me, you're provoking some good stuff here, Michael.

01:20:49.920 No, you wouldn't.

01:20:50.980 And isn't that a great part of the deception, though?

01:20:54.160 Isn't that a great part of the devil's plan, right, to use people that just, hey, girl

01:20:58.900 next door, guy next door, really nice people that really just want to help you, really compassionate

01:21:04.060 people.

01:21:05.120 Hey, it must be okay then.

01:21:07.160 Because now we look back, we say, well, obviously, those women weren't witches.

01:21:12.080 I think, first of all, you don't know that.

01:21:14.520 Right.

01:21:15.140 Right.

01:21:15.540 And I'm not advocating for witch trials, necessarily, but one, you don't know that they

01:21:22.260 weren't witches.

01:21:23.520 And the other thing is, you, person in the modern age, you don't believe in witchcraft,

01:21:28.020 or at least you tell yourself you don't believe.

01:21:29.240 You're not conscious of this.

01:21:31.240 They all did.

01:21:32.960 Right.

01:21:33.920 Really, everyone for all of human history until about five seconds ago believed in such

01:21:37.680 a thing as witchcraft.

01:21:38.920 But the people at the time, the accusers and the accused at the time of the Salem witchcraft,

01:21:43.480 they did believe in that.

01:21:44.700 And I don't know, the fact that everyone, for all of history, everywhere on Earth, has

01:21:49.440 believed in this kind of a thing.

01:21:51.340 That's such a good point.

01:21:52.560 And now you're seeing people literally like, hey, I'm a Capricorn.

01:21:57.300 Oh, I'm not a, I don't do witchcraft.

01:21:59.920 It's like, what?

01:22:00.900 That's so Pisces of you to think that I'm a witch.

01:22:03.220 Yeah.

01:22:03.760 Hold on, wait.

01:22:04.460 I can't be with you because our signs don't match up.

01:22:06.960 I don't think so.

01:22:07.760 Uh-uh, I don't think your chakras are making you accused of witchcraft.

01:22:10.520 But I'm not in witchcraft, so.

01:22:11.660 Yeah, come on.

01:22:12.840 All right, bye.

01:22:13.520 I've got to go get on my broomstick now.

01:22:15.080 Yes.

01:22:16.160 So many people have the blinders on now.

01:22:18.820 You make such a great point.

01:22:20.140 People really did know.

01:22:22.760 And you think about, so is that being pushed out, you think, because the Bible and Christianity,

01:22:28.820 I mean, we see where the devil is on the rise.

01:22:31.020 I mean, we could see that through, I mean, come on.

01:22:33.060 I mean, between the Grammys and all these concerts and these satanic rituals.

01:22:37.620 Oh, that's just choreography.

01:22:39.060 Oh, like this.

01:22:39.400 Spirit cooking at the Hillary Clinton campaign.

01:22:41.900 Yeah, it's weird.

01:22:42.680 It's weird because it's not, I'm not accusing Hillary of being a witch.

01:22:45.900 We all know that already.

01:22:47.440 I'm not, no, that's not nice.

01:22:49.160 That's not nice.

01:22:49.460 But when those emails came out from her server, her completely unsecured server, it, for me,

01:22:56.220 it's troublesome when major politicians are engaging in overt, or major political apparatchiks,

01:23:01.280 people around the politicians are engaging in overt occultism and Satanism.

01:23:03.900 But even for the person who doesn't believe in any of this, and they think that I'm deluded,

01:23:07.800 and you're crazy, and they're watching, but they're still watching this for some reason,

01:23:10.760 I have to ask, isn't it kind of weird?

01:23:14.580 Like, if you don't believe any of it's real, isn't it weird to go, like, have a big stew

01:23:18.600 out of a cauldron with eye of newt and, you know, weird spells being cast over?

01:23:21.860 That's at least an odd thing to do.

01:23:24.360 And so, also part of the reason I think that people are so blind to it is,

01:23:27.600 biblical literacy, religious literacy, is just so cratered in recent memory,

01:23:34.720 because we kicked the Bible out of schools, and because of other problems within the church,

01:23:40.300 that, I mean, I heard from a professor, a very serious professor at a very serious university,

01:23:45.200 who said, most of his students don't know who Noah is.

01:23:48.680 Wow, that's shocking.

01:23:51.380 I mean, I even did when I was a kid.

01:23:53.420 I was born in 77, I mean, so we're really going back, but even I did.

01:23:57.200 Wow, that is, that's horrible, that really is.

01:23:59.860 But you know, too, Michael, I think that if you conceded to the fact that God is real,

01:24:05.940 and you would have to give up those things, and those things are offering you something, right?

01:24:13.020 Am I going off on this one?

01:24:14.080 I don't know, like, the astrology, the tarot cards, all of that,

01:24:18.180 that's been giving you something that you want.

01:24:20.600 And if you turn to God and conceded that that's demonic and that God is real,

01:24:26.000 well, then, again, remember, you're coming to an authority figure,

01:24:29.500 and you're going to have to give up something that has been keeping you very comfortable in your own sin,

01:24:34.240 and your own pride.

01:24:36.220 So I think that's a reason why you would want to, oh, no, you're crazy.

01:24:41.120 Oh, no, I'm just going to, this is fine, you know?

01:24:44.400 Because religion is about God, spirituality is about you,

01:24:48.340 and it also, not only is it that you're going to have to give up some of these fun little weird powers

01:24:54.480 or whatever, you're also going to have to give up your sins that you enjoy,

01:24:58.940 which I guess are synonymous or there's significant overlap,

01:25:02.500 but you're also going to have to give up that thing you like to do with that lady down the street.

01:25:09.740 You're also going to have to give up your greed.

01:25:12.120 You're also going to have to give up screaming at your uncle or whatever.

01:25:14.920 You know, you're going to have to give up these things that, your drugs and your booze and your this or your that

01:25:19.080 if you've got a problem with those things.

01:25:21.780 And that's, you know, it's a big ask when you cultivate habits.

01:25:26.340 Yes, it's a big ask, but I think that's where people,

01:25:31.860 where we know that God's commands are not burdensome.

01:25:35.400 They're actually set up for us to live an abundant life, which is amazing.

01:25:38.920 So the very thing that they're seeking for that peace and that freedom isn't offering any of that,

01:25:44.980 but we have it by giving up those things and coming to the Lord, right?

01:25:49.440 Because we delude ourselves in a couple of ways in modern atheism and modern religion,

01:25:55.260 which is we say, oh, the demons, they don't really give you anything.

01:26:00.180 No, they do.

01:26:00.780 You actually did have psychic powers.

01:26:03.040 Yes.

01:26:03.220 You know, I mean, I believe that and people have that.

01:26:06.780 You actually did get something in exchange for your effective worship of demons.

01:26:11.480 And likewise, they'll say, oh, you know, if you're going to worship God,

01:26:15.160 your will, your actions, they don't mean anything.

01:26:18.500 You don't have to do anything.

01:26:19.620 You don't need to practice virtue.

01:26:21.340 You don't need to avoid sin.

01:26:22.500 You don't need to grow in holiness.

01:26:23.740 You don't need to pray.

01:26:24.560 You don't, you know, our Lord didn't say,

01:26:27.300 there is no yoke or burden to following me.

01:26:30.720 He didn't say, leave that cross over on the side and just follow me or don't, whatever.

01:26:36.660 He says, take up your cross and bear it.

01:26:38.820 And he says, my yoke is easy and my burden is light.

01:26:42.000 But it is a yoke.

01:26:43.360 That's right.

01:26:44.000 There is, it's a light burden, but you got to do stuff.

01:26:49.020 That's right.

01:26:49.520 You know, this is sometimes in modern religion, there's a, in all modern religion,

01:26:56.100 including in, I'm sorry to say, parts of the Catholic Church,

01:26:58.480 they'll de-emphasize liturgy.

01:27:02.180 There are very, very long passages of multiple books of the Bible

01:27:06.580 talking about liturgy in the Old Testament.

01:27:09.680 How God wants to be worshipped.

01:27:11.380 You think about the Levitical vestments.

01:27:13.700 You think about, you think about just the construction of the Ark of the Covenant,

01:27:17.080 the tabernacle, and it's got to be exactly like this.

01:27:19.640 And it's got to be exactly like this.

01:27:20.960 Even in, you know, one step removed liturgically,

01:27:24.300 you talk about the construction of Noah's Ark.

01:27:27.960 The precision with which God says, do this in this way.

01:27:34.180 And it seems to me to come out and say, well, it just doesn't matter how we worship God.

01:27:40.320 You know, we all worship God in our own way, man.

01:27:42.380 We're all hugging different parts of the elephant.

01:27:44.680 No, well, you know, I'm not saying that if you say a certain prayer in a certain way,

01:27:49.540 or if you kneel in a certain way, that there you are, that's yourself.

01:27:53.160 Obviously, I'm not saying that.

01:27:54.360 But if you love the Lord and you have a relationship with God and you want to pursue God,

01:27:58.880 then wouldn't a follow-up question be, well, how does the Lord want me to worship him?

01:28:05.800 How does the Lord want me to follow him?

01:28:08.900 But that takes you out of the realm of spirituality.

01:28:11.380 Completely out.

01:28:11.980 That puts you back in religion.

01:28:13.620 Completely out.

01:28:14.380 Now you even care that God wants anything.

01:28:17.380 When you even care, you're so out of New Age, you're so out of spirituality, if you even care.

01:28:21.800 But now, you know, I don't know if you've heard of Christ consciousness.

01:28:24.940 Yes, I have heard.

01:28:26.120 So people have brought this up.

01:28:28.620 I don't really know what it is.

01:28:29.820 So Christ consciousness is when you will take some of the teaching of Jesus Christ,

01:28:34.840 you know, the fun, loving, like the fun, the loving, mushy part of Jesus.

01:28:40.460 I mean, the peaceful, he's just peace and love, you know.

01:28:43.780 Whatever that means to you, man.

01:28:45.260 Yeah, exactly.

01:28:47.380 Yeah, you know.

01:28:50.120 And then you'll go practice yoga and also worship Buddha.

01:28:53.480 It's all, hey, you know, whatever you want to do.

01:28:56.100 And it's just this idea that you can worship more than one God and just take,

01:29:01.680 that's completely rejecting Jesus' identity as the Son of God, who he is.

01:29:09.360 And once again, it just goes back to you doing you.

01:29:12.580 And after all, right, don't we live in that love is love and you do you?

01:29:15.960 Do you know where I first heard the phrase Christ consciousness from a bum in New York late at night?

01:29:20.820 Really?

01:29:21.140 I had just gotten into the city.

01:29:22.100 I went to pick up some food at McDonald's.

01:29:23.820 I run into this bum.

01:29:25.360 And I'm just chatting with the bum, you know, eating hamburgers.

01:29:28.320 And he had an interesting conversation.

01:29:31.440 And he started going off about achieving Christ consciousness.

01:29:37.100 Wow.

01:29:37.240 And I thought, you know, this is the perfect topic for the ravings of an addicted, probably deeply mentally disturbed bum.

01:29:45.660 This is not, you can forgive a guy who has that mental disposition, perhaps for going off the deep end.

01:29:53.100 But then you hear it from people who seem like they should have their affairs in order.

01:29:57.520 But is the idea that it just takes the agency away from the actual Christ and just puts it on your Gnostic ability to learn secrets and control the universe?

01:30:09.560 Is that basically it?

01:30:10.320 Yeah.

01:30:10.560 And it's really subjective.

01:30:12.140 So you'll have different people describing it differently.

01:30:15.360 Some will describe it as, well, we're all children of God and we know that's not the truth.

01:30:20.620 We're all made in his image, but we're not all his children.

01:30:24.480 Trying to raise the vibration, getting that level of enlightenment and connecting with your own divinity.

01:30:30.520 Oh, you're divine, are you?

01:30:33.600 I don't know.

01:30:34.060 Where's my divinity?

01:30:35.120 I'm digging through my flesh here.

01:30:37.020 And it comes back to that baby God thing again, you know, wanting to have that power and be God-like.

01:30:42.360 That's really what it comes down to.

01:30:44.700 And so like I said, anything in the new age, it's really subjective.

01:30:48.860 You know, all of the things, you know, the astrology, the numerology, the angel numbers, all that type of, oh yeah, oh, oh, it's all out there, Michael.

01:31:02.760 It's horrible.

01:31:04.560 I know we're over time, but what's an angel number?

01:31:06.920 It's not really an angel number.

01:31:08.980 It's just a number that people see numbers, right?

01:31:12.940 And apparently our brains actually will pay attention to patterns of numbers.

01:31:17.320 But then you go to Google, I keep seeing 1111, I keep seeing 444, there's my, 777, right?

01:31:24.800 And then you're going to get a list of new age explanations for that.

01:31:28.340 And one is going to be that it's an angel number.

01:31:30.620 An angel is communicating with you with a message through that number, okay?

01:31:35.700 Especially if you're seeing it all the time.

01:31:37.320 Oh, I just turned my phone.

01:31:38.560 It's 1111 on the stove, right?

01:31:40.380 But the explanations will be subjective because they're being channeled by different mediums.

01:31:47.480 You know, one might say you're an ascended master.

01:31:50.760 One might say the angel is trying to tell you, you know, whatever, I don't know, that you're at peace or something.

01:31:58.160 Then people will see numbers on license plates that were mom's birthday or whatever.

01:32:03.820 And then maybe mom just recently passed away.

01:32:06.040 Mom's communicating with me through the license plate.

01:32:08.260 And I understand the pain, Michael.

01:32:11.980 I got as many readings probably as I gave.

01:32:15.220 I mean, I've had tremendous loss in my life.

01:32:18.140 So my heart goes out to people that are grievous, of course.

01:32:22.020 And that they're not wanting that connection to be gone.

01:32:27.000 They're wanting to keep something going.

01:32:28.960 They want to keep something going and they want to keep connecting, communicating with the person you lost.

01:32:33.320 We will get that.

01:32:34.220 Anybody who suffered a great loss, right?

01:32:35.780 But that's just not the truth.

01:32:38.440 And once you go down that road, you're going into demonic destruction.

01:32:42.240 And that's the whole thing.

01:32:43.600 Like, you will get that oppression.

01:32:45.240 Right, right.

01:32:46.060 It's so much more insidious because, you know, I'll mock the people who want to make themselves masters of the universe.

01:32:52.220 And, you know, I'm manifesting whatever I want because I control.

01:32:55.620 I'm God, actually.

01:32:56.580 But, you know, a lot of it is just, you know, someone's mom died and she's really sad.

01:33:02.440 And just she sees a little, you know, bird fly out the window and thinks, oh, is that, you know, maybe that's, is that really my mother?

01:33:08.800 Or I don't know.

01:33:09.400 There's, oh, did I hear something?

01:33:10.920 Did I see something?

01:33:11.700 Did I go to a medium?

01:33:12.840 It comes from desperation.

01:33:14.660 And because, because we all crave that.

01:33:18.860 But, you know, I at least believe I'll see, I hope all of my loved ones someday, at least a good number of them, I hope.

01:33:29.940 But it's not going to be by talking to you.

01:33:33.120 It's going to be, you know, the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come.

01:33:37.180 Jen, an absolute pleasure.

01:33:38.460 I've kept you late.

01:33:39.120 You're going to miss your flight and then we'll probably keep talking for the rest of you.

01:33:42.000 Thank you so much for being here.

01:33:43.140 Where can people find you?

01:33:43.900 Thank you for having me.

01:33:45.140 www.expsychicsaved.com

01:33:48.300 That's me, ExpsychicsSaved.

01:33:51.900 Don't include the X.

01:33:52.780 Don't go.

01:33:54.020 That's right.

01:33:54.500 E-X.

01:33:55.220 Yes, that's right.

01:33:56.020 Do not, do not go to the current ones.

01:33:58.280 And everything's linked there.

01:33:59.540 All of my social media platforms, my podcasts.

01:34:03.480 Podcast, you got to give it a listen, Michael.

01:34:05.680 We got it all on there.

01:34:06.880 Numerology, astrology.

01:34:08.240 It's great.

01:34:09.680 Getting out there.

01:34:10.480 I guess it's better to know.

01:34:13.900 As long as it won't tempt me.

01:34:15.500 No, because you'll give the full picture.

01:34:17.180 Yeah.

01:34:17.720 Jen, thank you for being here.

01:34:18.600 Thank you, Michael.

01:34:19.160 With 20 years reporting on the markets, I know that some industries are built to last, but

01:34:31.620 others are built to lead.

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The Michael Knowles Show - August 26, 2023

Michael & The Former Psychic：＂It Was Fine Until the Demon Touched Me＂

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