The Great Hope To End Roe V. Wade ｜ Kristan Hawkins
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Summary
In this episode, we talk with Students for Life President Kristen Hawkins about the case of Dobbs v. Jackson, a case that could overrule Roe v. Wade and end abortion in America. We discuss the possibility that the Supreme Court will uphold the Mississippi law banning abortion after 24 weeks of pregnancy, and what that means for the future of abortion in the United States.
Transcript
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It has been 49 years since Roe v. Wade created a fictional right to abortion in America.
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That case was reaffirmed, slightly changed, but reaffirmed nonetheless in the Planned
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Parenthood v. Casey decision. Now we are looking at what could be one of, if not the most
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consequential case in the history of the Supreme Court, Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization,
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abortion which could overrule all of it. It could kill Roe v. Wade. Roe v. Wade would be kept
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comfortable. There would be a conversation that would ensue between the voters of America,
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and we very possibly could end abortion in America. So who better to discuss these possibilities with
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than the head of Students for Life, my friend Kristen Hawkins. Kristen, thank you for being here.
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This is a monumental year. It's not 50 yet. The 49th, March for Life, it's 49 years
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since Roe v. Wade. Is Roe going to make it to 50?
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Absolutely not. There's a great hope that this June, when the Supreme Court hands down their
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decision in Dobbs, that we will see a reversal, a gutting of Roe v. Wade.
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And knowing that the Supreme Court can disappoint, and has disappointed, and conservative appointed
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judges have disappointed. How confident are you that, while we're told this is a 6-3 conservative
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court, John Roberts is not particularly conservative. Brett Kavanaugh, there are some questions. Neil
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Gorsuch redefined sex in the Bostock case. Amy Barrett. So there are these, there are some
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questions. Is there a possibility that you get a couple squishes and Roe continues?
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Yeah, I think the question right now is Chief Justice Roberts and trying to broker some sort of
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compromise there, where they would uphold the Mississippi law that bans painful abortions
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at 15 weeks, these dismemberment abortions, which would then allow other states to go forth and ban
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second and third trimester abortions. But then would they create a new standard? So the Casey standard
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was viability. If they would come up with a compromise, it would be some sort of new standard,
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like 15 weeks. But it's really difficult because really, you know, even last year,
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one of the medical journals, they said that they think pain can actually even start at 12 and a half
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weeks. So it's always kind of changing. That threshold is changing based on the newest research.
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And it's just kind of a random standard because, you know, I can put an anesthetic on or say,
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and I don't feel pain, so can you lop my hand off? I don't, I don't think that makes sense.
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Absolutely. And viability changes depending on what hospital you were born in, what type of
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equipment they have, you know, what kind of medical care your mother had. So even this viability 24-week
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standard, there's babies being born who are living today who are born at 21 weeks. So that could be
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the compromise. It would still be a win for the pro-life movement. Babies would still be saved.
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I think that's probably the worst case scenario. You're saying the worst case scenario would be to
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uphold the pro-life law, but not overrule Roe. Yes, but leave Roe intact and come up with some sort of
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arbitrary new standard. The feeling on both sides, I believe, and I think you can read Planned
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Parenthood's panicked fundraising emails and text messages that I get, is that because they were
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willing to even take up the case, it means there's a significant majority willing to reconsider Roe
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entirely. Well, that's wonderful news. We hope. Hope is a theological virtue. You are launching an
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initiative called the final fight for freedom. That's right. We all fight for freedom. You hear
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there are a lot of movements. Oh, that's the fight for freedom. We're fighting. We love freedom. Everyone
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loves freedom. The most interesting word there to me is final. Why is this the final fight for freedom?
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Well, we think about it as this battle of this first fight for freedom of the fight for Americans to
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self-govern, right? To determine our fate. And then the second fight for freedom, determining that every
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American deserves full rights, no matter their skin color, right? It was fought during the Civil War,
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extended into the Civil Rights Movement. But then in 1973, something else happened when seven men said,
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well, your right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is determined based on where you are,
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your location, the fact that you are out of the womb. And it fundamentally disordered that hierarchy
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of rights that we have, putting someone else's pursuit of happiness over someone else's right to
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life. And we know throughout history, we have done that. Plessy, Dred Sky, that the court has had to go
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back and reverse itself. But we feel like this is this final fight. Because as Abraham Lincoln said,
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you have to give freedom to the slave in order to ensure freedom for the free. And if these
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children, these innocent children don't have the freedom to be born, all our freedoms are at stake.
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Because it's not as though the right to life is just one right among many. You know, you have the
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right to life. We have the right to medical care, maybe. We have the right to a social security check.
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No. And by the way, it's not even as though life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are all on
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one level. That's right. As you, I think, imply quite well, you can't pursue happiness if you
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don't have liberty. And you can't have liberty if you don't have a life. So, by the way, I don't
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think that these leftists, these pro-abortion people who are screaming and yelling with their
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crazy looking hair and their, you know, demonic sounding chants. The hats. And the hats, you know,
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always. And I don't think they're really pursuing happiness. When I look at the Supreme Court,
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I see the pro-lifers, they're nice. They seem so well-adjusted.
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They feel like they are, but they are the most miserable people on earth.
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The pro-abortion people, yes. That's right. So, they're not even pursuing happiness. I really...
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Because they live for self. They don't live for others. It's the, you know, the principles of
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Right. No, I mean, well, but I'm glad you brought that up because very often I find today a lot of
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conservatives, pro-lifers. I know there are people on the left who are pro-life as well,
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so I don't want to exclude them either. But very often, we will accept the scientistic,
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materialist premises of our modern culture. So, we'll always try to ground everything in
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biology. Why can't a hulking dude go into the girl's bathroom? Well, because the science shows
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that he has a Y chromosome. No, well, there are other reasons too. Well, biologically,
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the swimmer on the girl's team is a huge dude who has an obvious physical advantage.
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It's more than just biology. It's more than just the baby in the womb feeling pain. It's more than
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just a heartbeat even. It's what are we beyond the merely physical? And that requires philosophical
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and theological engagement. You can't get around it.
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That's right. And it's interesting because so often when we're on campuses,
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we approach it from a scientific human rights standpoint. You know, we're not leading the
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argument. I was doing an interview the other day and someone goes, well, why do you all bring up
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religion? I'm like, the only time anyone ever actually brings up religion are pro-abortion
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people who throw religion in my face. You brought it up. But since you have, let's talk about it.
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Because we kind of already start with the premise that you know that human life has value. But that's
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actually an interesting point because I started seeing this post-COVID and some of the conversations,
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aka debates that I have, you know, folks who come to my speeches on campus where I've actually had
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pro-abortion students. I'll back them up. We'll be talking about abortion. I'll be asking them
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questions. And I'll actually back them up and say, well, let's stop talking about the pre-born.
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Because I've already proved to you that that pre-born child is a human. I've proved that science
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Yes. I can't have a quality bear as much as I want a quality bear. I cannot make one with my
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husband. I've tried. It won't happen. Right? So we've already proved it's a human. But what we're
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disagreeing about is does that human being have value? But let's first start with,
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do you have value? And where does your value come from? And that's actually very scary because we
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do live in a post-Christian culture. They can't even answer the question. I had two kids, two young
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boys, actually, last semester, who when I asked them, do you have value as a human being, told me no.
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Honestly. I mean, these were genuine discussions. And they genuinely didn't believe they had value.
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Because, I mean, I speak as, I was an atheist for 10 years. I'm quite familiar with the very
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shallow atheistic arguments. And they, I think in sincerity, are looking around and they say,
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okay, if I can't see it, if I can't touch it, it's not real. And so my hopes, my joys, my loves,
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my dreams, mathematics, and certainly God himself, the maker of the universe, I can't really see them.
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I can't comprehend. So it's just not real. And then if you look around and say, okay, if the matter
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is all that really matters, then no, I don't have any value. But it's funny on this topic of religion
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that the left is always throwing religion at you because they accuse religious people of magical
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Justice Sotomayor, I think, just did that in the Dobbs hearing.
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Right. And could you, could you imagine any more magical thinking, any more fantastical thinking
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than believing that a baby is a baby if you want the baby, but a baby is not a baby if you don't
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want the baby. And if, if a pregnant woman is murdered, then that is double homicide. But if
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the woman herself chooses to go and kill the baby, that's not homicide at all. How do they, how do they
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make that argument? Not for, not very convincingly, I guess.
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Yeah. I mean, it's a dumb founding argument, right? It makes you want to take your head and
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pound it against the ball because you can point out, I mean, those are the arguments when folks
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come to my presentations on campus, I love because all I do is have to repeat back what they said to
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me. And I know they themselves have changed the minds of those mushy in the audience. I haven't had
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to say anything. I just pointed out the illogical position that those who accept abortion have to
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take. They have to take this illogical argument. And in fact, like, I mean, it goes on because
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then you can ask, well, what separates a newborn child from a child who's a month old outside of
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the womb? What's the difference there? Right. I know that some people, especially people who
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haven't had kids, they think that there is a huge categorical difference between a three-day-old
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baby and a baby in the womb. Your baby cannot do anything on his or her own until, well, probably
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until he's about 12, but certainly not. I'm a 12-year-old. It's going to be later than that,
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I think. Right. Certainly a newborn baby is just as helpless, is just as vulnerable, is just as much
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in need of his or her mother. They're actually more time-consuming, more expensive. I love to be
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pregnant. Being pregnant is easy. I took a baby with me everywhere I was. Having a newborn, I had to take
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all the gear, I had to take all the medicine for my children. Like, it was crazy, like all much stuff.
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It took us like two hours just to go to Applebee's. Right. And yes, we go to Applebee's because we're
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boring Midwesterners. But I mean, so it's unbelievable the logical positions that in order to be pro-abortion
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now in our culture with all the science and technology, all technology has proved that you
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have to accept. It's clearly a logical argument. So with all of this kind of crazy magical thinking
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that's going on, especially on college campuses, you're seeing religion rates plummeting. You're seeing
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sexual confusion go through the roof. You're seeing men who believe that they're women and
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vice versa. And everybody has 10 different genders and we are legion or something.
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What about pro-life? Are we losing the youths or is pro-life gaining momentum on campus?
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We actually gain momentum. We just, our Students for Life's Institute for Pro-Life Advancement just
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released a poll this week of Gen Z, Gen Y, the third of our electorate, the largest voting bloc,
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good thing or bad thing. Mostly a bad thing for Republicans, I would say. And the poll numbers
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aren't as bad as you would think they are. In fact, they're pretty nuanced. And in many ways,
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we win. Six out of 10 originally said they supported Roe. We, in one line, told them what
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Roe and Doe did, right? That these two decisions, 1973, allowed abortion in all nine months for whatever
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reason. 10% instant shift, 10-point shift. Then we were 50-50. Wow. Instantly. With one line.
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Just explaining what the cases are. Just explain. When we talked about chemical abortion,
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the rise of, now this is going to be the most prevalent form of abortion this year. This is
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what the Biden administration has been rushing through. The day that they pulled the Johnson
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and Johnson vaccine because one person died, the FDA came out and said they were pulling all
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common sense regulations on chemical abortion pills, even though dozens of women have died.
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And all the babies have died. And all the babies have died. They pulled those regulations in
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December. When we polled young people, and by the way, the majority of the poll were not
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conservatives. 66 out of 10% were wanting these common sense regulations who thought it was like,
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duh, a woman should be confirmed that she's actually pregnant before she's given these drugs.
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It should be confirmed that she's not experiencing an atomic pregnancy that could kill her.
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It should be confirmed that she's not RH negative, so she'll never be able to carry another child to
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term. I mean, these things make sense to even pro-choice or liberal-leaning young people.
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And so the numbers aren't as bad as many conservatives think when it comes to abortion. In fact,
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when I'm at conservative events, I'm always telling the run-of-the-mill conservative, like,
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you actually need me. I'm like your best marketing arm for the Republican movement because
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this is a movement that brings a diverse group of students and young people in. We're a very diverse
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movement, Students for Life, because they see this not as a political battle, but as a human rights
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battle. They've seen their brothers and sisters be a ultrasound. Many folks come into our movements
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and our campus groups, our third-time groups, not political at all, don't want to pay attention to
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politics. But then as they kind of get sucked into the movement, they say, oh my goodness, if I care about
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this, I need to care about that. And then I slowly get to witness the transformation from like
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liberal, atheist, Democrat to sold out, you know, confirmed staffer working on Capitol Hill for one
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of the top Republicans in the Senate or someone going into the priesthood. I mean, the atheists
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who then became evangelical, you know, I mean, like it's crazy the transformations that begin.
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This is a great observation because for many years we have been told by conservatives,
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by the squishy conservatives. The people here in DC. Yes, we're speaking from DC right now. The
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March for Life is happening. The Students for Life Summit is happening. And there are a lot of
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swamp creatures around here who are squishes. And they say the way that you're going to bring over
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liberals and independents and leftists is just don't talk about the culture. Just talk about
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lowering taxes. And then once people want their taxes lowered, then they'll come in on these other
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issues. But what you're saying, it's the opposite. If you convince someone that human life
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matters. And we are the ones who care about human life. I mean, that's the thing too, is
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the accusation often waged against pro-lifers is that we don't care about women, right? What are we
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going to do when Roe is reversed? When thousands and thousands of women, or even though thousands
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and thousands of women certainly did not die per year of back alley abortions before Roe, but...
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Yeah, but what are we going to do without the women? You say, oh, by the way, have you ever met
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the pro-life movement? We've been offering nearly 2,000 pregnancy centers every single day for
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decades. We offer all of these resources and support. This is who the pro-life movement is.
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We're actually a movement of love and compassion. We really put our money where our mouth is.
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What better way to show young people who may have a negative brand associated with the word
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Republican or conservative that we care about people? Because we're fighting for them just to
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be born in the first place. That's right. This is very basic stuff. You convince them on life,
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on things that matter. The taxes will follow. You really are in the fight. I am very excited
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for this next initiative, for all the great work. And gosh, we have so much more to talk about.
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What are we going to do after Roe versus Wade? How are we going to keep fighting? Not just to send
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this issue back to the states, but to end abortion nationwide. We're going to have to hold that
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until after they overrule Roe, and we'll have you back.
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Yeah, and go to studentsforlife.org slash fight. We have our whole battle plan for post-Roe,
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so you can download it for free and get all the details.
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Terrific. Kristen Hawkins of Students for Life, a great organization that I'm very excited to speak to
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on this 49th anniversary of not just Roe versus Wade, but the 49th anniversary of the pro-life
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movement, gaining more and more strength each year, and hopefully getting a whole lot more
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strength this year as we move into a post-Roe world. See you next time.