The Michael Knowles Show - ＂The Lights Went Out In Their Eyes＂ Michael & The Vaccine Dissident

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00:00:40.460 I started getting calls from parents saying my child was perfectly normal.

00:00:48.140 They stopped sleeping at night.

00:00:49.420 They were screaming.

00:00:50.520 They were in pain.

00:00:51.980 The lights went out in their eyes.

00:00:53.420 It was a very common description.

00:00:54.700 And doctors say, this is just part of autism.

00:00:57.900 Get over it.

00:00:58.820 Put your child in a home.

00:01:00.860 Have another child and forget about it.

00:01:02.740 What were they thinking?

00:01:03.980 This is their quote.

00:01:05.140 We are not going to be left with an orphan drug.

00:01:08.880 And so it was decided to avoid that.

00:01:12.160 They would put it into one-day-old infants.

00:01:14.100 Do vaccines cause autism?

00:01:25.440 When I was a boy, it was the left that was skeptical of vaccines, thought that there might be a link between vaccines and autism.

00:01:33.160 It was the left-wing shows that promoted this idea.

00:01:35.500 Now, politics has flipped upside down.

00:01:39.120 It's people on the right who suspect that vaccines might cause autism or other adverse health effects.

00:01:44.700 It's the people on the left who are defending big pharma.

00:01:47.540 You've now got Bobby Kennedy, who was a Democrat.

00:01:50.280 He's a Kennedy, for goodness sakes.

00:01:51.780 He's now the Secretary of Health and Human Services for Donald Trump, who previously had been kind of a Democrat.

00:01:56.840 Now he's the Republican president.

00:01:58.020 And here I am, still totally ignorant of vaccines.

00:02:02.160 So I figured I'd call in a man who is at the center of this controversy, and that is Dr. Andy Wakefield.

00:02:08.700 Dr. Wakefield, thank you for coming on the show.

00:02:10.960 Nice to be here.

00:02:11.660 Thank you very much.

00:02:12.380 For the people who don't know who you are, you published the study in the 1990s that suggested adverse health effects from the MMR vaccine.

00:02:24.820 And you have also been the chief target of everyone who wants to defend all vaccines, really, and especially the MMR vaccine.

00:02:33.940 According to, I think it was David Weldon, former congressman who was nominated for CDC under Trump, you are the most unfairly vilified man on planet Earth.

00:02:44.120 And I said, well, is that true?

00:02:45.840 Let me look up a little bit about Andy Wakefield.

00:02:48.240 And I know you certainly have the best Wikipedia page I've ever seen.

00:02:52.000 Now, some of my friends have been unfairly maligned on Wikipedia as conspiracy theorists, hoaxters, bigots, whatever.

00:02:59.320 The first line of your biography on there is, Andrew Wakefield is a fraudster and a former medical doctor and a this and a that and a this and a that.

00:03:10.260 Take me back to the beginning.

00:03:12.640 Before you were one of the most politically controversial figures on the planet, you're a doctor.

00:03:18.440 Well, there I was.

00:03:20.980 It was 1981.

00:03:22.480 I graduated in medicine from St. Mary's Hospital Medical School in London.

00:03:26.760 I was one of five generations now, six generations of my family to graduate from that medical school.

00:03:33.600 Medicine was really in our blood, I suppose you could say.

00:03:37.280 And I was entirely mainstream, whatever that means.

00:03:40.480 And I had a specific interest in inflammatory bowel disease.

00:03:45.800 I got my fellowship with the Royal College of Surgeons, my fellowship with the Royal College of Pathologists.

00:03:51.960 And I was running a research team at the Royal Free, which was part of the university teaching hospitals at the University of London.

00:04:00.300 And we were, it was a very exciting time.

00:04:03.480 We were making great progress.

00:04:04.640 And we had started to examine the cause of inflammatory bowel disease, Crohn's, colitis,

00:04:10.620 and had made some very interesting observations in the context of natural measles infection

00:04:16.500 and unusual exposures to natural measles leading to these diseases.

00:04:22.400 And in 1995, I started getting calls from parents, highly articulate, intelligent parents, saying my child was perfectly normal.

00:04:34.920 They had speech language interaction with their siblings.

00:04:37.780 They were sleeping well, eating well, growing well.

00:04:40.520 And then they had their MMR vaccine.

00:04:42.760 I wasn't anti-vaccine doctor.

00:04:44.820 I took them to be vaccinated on time.

00:04:46.860 And within a very short space of time after the vaccine, they'd lost all their skills.

00:04:53.600 Speech language gone.

00:04:54.840 Their eyes glazed over.

00:04:56.640 The lights went out in their eyes.

00:04:58.100 It was a very common description.

00:04:59.800 They stopped sleeping at night.

00:05:01.080 They were screaming.

00:05:02.200 They were in pain.

00:05:03.660 I knew they were in pain, even though they'd lost the ability to communicate.

00:05:07.660 As their mother, I knew they were suffering.

00:05:10.800 And I said, you know, how can I help?

00:05:13.980 They said, well, they were eventually diagnosed with autism.

00:05:17.180 And I said, I know nothing about autism.

00:05:19.920 You must have got the wrong number.

00:05:21.540 Because even this part of the story is pretty shocking.

00:05:25.280 It's not as though you started out investigating autism.

00:05:28.820 As you say, you were investigating gut issues.

00:05:31.580 Absolutely, yeah.

00:05:32.620 So how do you go from investigating measles and vaccines and gut issues to autism?

00:05:38.700 Well, that's exactly the question I asked them.

00:05:40.500 I said, you know, when I was at medical school, autism was so rare, we weren't even taught about it.

00:05:46.060 There was no class on autism.

00:05:48.280 I think...

00:05:48.920 One in 10,000 children.

00:05:50.280 Yes.

00:05:50.880 Whatever statistic I saw, it said in 1966, it was one in 2,500.

00:05:56.020 And then in 2000, it was one in 150.

00:05:58.680 And then today, it's one in 36 kids that's getting diagnosed with autism.

00:06:02.300 Even more.

00:06:02.620 One in 31.

00:06:04.100 One in 20 boys.

00:06:05.300 It's more common in boys than girls.

00:06:07.440 How do you explain that?

00:06:08.360 Well, that's a very good question.

00:06:10.040 So this is what the parents brought to my attention.

00:06:12.500 They said, doctor, my child has intractable gastrointestinal problems, diarrhea, alternating

00:06:19.660 constipation and diarrhea, bloating, abdominal pain, failure to thrive, all the cardinal features

00:06:25.740 of an underlying inflammatory bowel disease.

00:06:28.620 But the doctors and nurses I've been to see doctors say, this is just part of autism.

00:06:34.240 Get over it.

00:06:35.220 Put your child in a home.

00:06:37.240 Have another child and forget about it.

00:06:39.960 I thought, I mean, this is extraordinary.

00:06:42.000 I've never heard medicine respond in this way at all.

00:06:45.400 Now, they said, the other thing, doctor, is there is an epidemic of this problem of developmentally

00:06:51.740 normal children suddenly losing their skills and becoming autistic?

00:06:57.920 And so I said, okay, now the fundamental rule of clinical medicine, okay, let's go right

00:07:02.060 back to the beginning, is to listen to the parents.

00:07:05.340 No one knows children like their parents, particularly the mother.

00:07:09.900 There is a connection there that no pediatrician can usurp, okay?

00:07:14.080 So it is the golden rule is you put all of your biases aside and you listen to the parents.

00:07:21.260 What are they telling me?

00:07:22.920 Is there a consistency to this story?

00:07:25.360 Is there a coherence?

00:07:27.260 Is it possible that an underlying inflammatory bowel disease can interact with the brain and

00:07:32.520 damage it?

00:07:33.080 We don't know.

00:07:33.820 But certainly in diseases like celiac disease, where there is an allergic sensitivity to gluten

00:07:40.020 in wheat, then the presenting features can be dementia or seizures or developmental regression

00:07:48.180 or autism.

00:07:49.640 So yes, there is a link.

00:07:51.140 We don't know what the nature of that link is.

00:07:53.140 But yes, there is a plausible link.

00:07:56.360 And I said to the Department of Health once, you know, if I take you for a pint of beer,

00:08:00.460 you may begin to understand what I'm talking about.

00:08:02.560 They thought I was trying to offer them to go out for a beer and enjoy their company.

00:08:06.380 Nothing could be further from the truth.

00:08:08.380 What I was saying is if you drink a pint of beer within a very short period of time,

00:08:12.960 you will feel the cerebral effects of that pint of beer on your brain.

00:08:16.320 There is a gut-brain connection.

00:08:18.120 This isn't difficult.

00:08:18.900 Even simply, if you take alcohol out of it, you know, some women in my life, if they are

00:08:24.800 a little late to lunch, they get a bit hangry.

00:08:26.980 Okay?

00:08:27.300 You see emotional and psychological connections.

00:08:30.020 We are one entity.

00:08:31.680 This is not separate from this.

00:08:33.560 So I thought, right, we need to look at this, put all of our biases aside, whether my children

00:08:39.720 were vaccinated or not, nothing to do with it.

00:08:41.740 They are telling us a story that we have to act upon.

00:08:44.880 And this is serious.

00:08:46.460 It's clearly serious because until proven otherwise, these children have an intestinal disease.

00:08:52.420 And if it's correctable, can we make their lives at least bearable, if not reverse some

00:08:57.780 element of what's going on?

00:08:59.540 So I put together a large team of some of the best people in the world, the leading

00:09:06.140 pediatric gastroenterologist in the world, Professor John Walker-Smith and his team from

00:09:11.800 St. Bartholomew's Hospital, psychiatrists, neurologists, and people.

00:09:16.440 And we came together and we investigated these children according to their clinical need.

00:09:20.640 It wasn't research.

00:09:21.820 According to their clinical need.

00:09:23.580 John Walker-Smith, the leader of the clinical team, made the decision that these children

00:09:28.960 merited investigation.

00:09:30.760 And lo and behold, when we scoped them, we biopsied, we looked at the biopsies under the

00:09:34.840 microscope, there was inflammation.

00:09:37.740 The parents were right.

00:09:40.100 And when we treated that inflammation with the kind of medication that we would use for

00:09:43.900 Crohn's or colitis, anti-inflammatories, dietary intervention, removal of gluten, and cow's

00:09:50.040 milk products from the diet, there was a dramatic improvement.

00:09:53.580 Again, these insights had come from parents.

00:09:56.380 We'd followed up on those insights, and they were true.

00:09:59.560 There was a dramatic improvement in the symptoms of autism.

00:10:03.800 Of not just the bowel symptoms, but the cognitive symptoms as well.

00:10:07.480 People say, well, they were just out of pain.

00:10:09.680 They were feeling better.

00:10:10.480 They were asleep.

00:10:11.320 No, this was children who were using words that they had not used for five years.

00:10:16.940 Words that, you know, you would have disappeared from their vocabulary were all in there.

00:10:21.400 They came back.

00:10:22.140 Because your critics say, well, sure, maybe the autism symptoms set in around the time

00:10:31.000 that kids are vaccinated.

00:10:33.420 However, that's just the time.

00:10:35.320 It's just coincidental.

00:10:36.680 The time that you get the vaccines is around the time that autism symptoms manifest.

00:10:41.260 But what you're saying is, yeah, but hold up.

00:10:42.600 When we started treating the gastrointestinal issues, the vaccine symptoms started to subside.

00:10:47.640 So it's not just, it can't just be a mere coincidence here, because we did something,

00:10:51.720 we intervened, and that had an effect on the autism symptoms.

00:10:54.780 Yes, you had an exposure and a withdrawal effect.

00:10:57.180 Just as you say, they were fine.

00:10:59.720 They weren't fine.

00:11:01.000 They improved.

00:11:01.780 And those time points were punctuated by their exposure to the vaccine and then their removal

00:11:08.960 of these potential toxins from the diet.

00:11:11.940 And the historical teaching of the experts in autism was that symptoms manifest from birth.

00:11:18.820 Autism is genetic, and it starts from birth.

00:11:21.420 Suddenly, it was, oh, no, the symptoms manifest at 15, 18 months.

00:11:25.320 That's not what you said.

00:11:26.940 That's not what it says in the textbooks.

00:11:29.200 You say regression.

00:11:30.480 So here's the key is that where do you go from here?

00:11:34.600 Because the parents had said, my child was fine.

00:11:39.300 They regressed.

00:11:40.260 They regressed in many cases after a vaccine.

00:11:44.000 They have a bowel disease until proven otherwise.

00:11:48.160 The diet works, and they can improve.

00:11:51.200 The expert opinion at that time is, my dear boy, children are autistic from birth.

00:11:57.900 It's genetic.

00:11:58.620 There is no regression, no developmental or behavioral regression.

00:12:01.880 There is no link with any kind of underlying bowel disease.

00:12:05.940 That's just incidental.

00:12:07.980 There is no improvement.

00:12:09.700 The diet has no effect at all.

00:12:11.340 The medical experts, God save us from medical experts, were wrong on every single count.

00:12:17.840 You could take that library of textbooks written by experts and burn it to the ground for the value of

00:12:24.540 the story from one parent telling you what actually happened.

00:12:29.280 It is an extraordinary iteration, reiteration of that fundamental rule of medicine and something

00:12:35.140 that we've largely forgotten in our arrogance in medicine to listen to the parents because

00:12:43.480 they were right on every count.

00:12:44.840 Now, when they say, I believe my child regressed after a vaccine, with that knowledge, do we

00:12:51.820 dismiss their story?

00:12:53.620 Do we say, actually, you know, you may be right, but this isn't going to be good for

00:12:59.520 my career.

00:13:00.160 So would you take your child and leave that, this room, and shut the door behind you?

00:13:04.920 Thank you.

00:13:05.260 That's what happened.

00:13:06.220 That is what we say.

00:13:06.940 That is what was happening.

00:13:08.300 And I, that's not what I signed up for.

00:13:11.500 That's not what I went into medicine.

00:13:12.840 I didn't have a bias one way or the other about whether the vaccine was involved, but

00:13:18.000 there was a moral and professional obligation to investigate, to answer their questions.

00:13:24.640 Because if it was true, if it were true that there is an epidemic of this particular problem,

00:13:31.180 then we need to know this.

00:13:32.900 We need to know it.

00:13:34.000 And my pediatric colleague said to me at the time, Andy, we as pediatricians cannot be seen

00:13:41.780 to question the safety of MMR.

00:13:44.760 I said, what does that mean?

00:13:47.640 Is your priority not to your patients, rather than to your reputation amongst your careers

00:13:52.880 at the Royal Society?

00:13:55.040 I mean, who are you answerable to?

00:13:57.700 But that was the position.

00:13:59.180 We cannot be seen to do this.

00:14:00.820 And I went to see the dean of the medical school.

00:14:03.620 I was called into his office.

00:14:05.080 He said, Andy, if you continue this vaccine safety research, it will not be good for your

00:14:10.220 career.

00:14:11.400 There was an overt threat.

00:14:12.620 He was absolutely right.

00:14:14.420 It wasn't good for my career.

00:14:16.480 But, you know, I was a sort of headstrong, somewhat idealistic young doctor.

00:14:22.740 And I was raised in a particular way.

00:14:24.940 And I thought, it just made me angry.

00:14:27.960 It made me determined to work twice as hard, because it was such a tragedy.

00:14:34.660 And it seemed to me that if it were avoidable or treatable, then we should know that.

00:14:41.460 And that was the course I pursued.

00:14:43.660 I was entirely open about it with my colleagues at every stage.

00:14:47.180 But that was the moral and professional obligation that I felt I had.

00:14:52.320 So what year was this?

00:14:54.140 This was from 1995 onwards.

00:14:57.860 And in 1998, you published the famous study in The Lancet.

00:15:02.200 That's right, yeah.

00:15:02.580 So the study comes out.

00:15:04.540 And I actually have trouble, in the popular reporting on this, even determining what the

00:15:11.100 study said.

00:15:11.840 Because they seem to accuse the study of saying things that it didn't necessarily say.

00:15:16.620 So what did the study say?

00:15:18.620 The study was a case series.

00:15:21.080 So this is the way in which human disease syndromes are described.

00:15:24.300 You have a group, a small group of people who have a consistent pattern of signs and symptoms

00:15:31.040 that merit investigation in their own right.

00:15:33.900 That leads to hypothesis testing studies.

00:15:37.180 Is this different from something we've seen before?

00:15:39.280 Is it new?

00:15:40.060 What's causing it?

00:15:41.200 Those are downstream.

00:15:42.020 This was a case series, just reporting what the parents had told us, what the doctors

00:15:47.400 had told us who referred them, and what we found on clinical investigation.

00:15:52.500 We could not leave out the parents' reference to the MMR.

00:15:56.220 But we said, at the conclusion of the study, this study does not prove an association, let

00:16:04.560 alone a causal association, with the MMR vaccine.

00:16:09.100 So hold on, hold on.

00:16:10.200 This is the part that's the craziest in the story to me.

00:16:15.120 You are blamed for creating vaccine skepticism.

00:16:18.980 You are blamed with measles outbreaks.

00:16:21.080 You are blamed and called a terrible fraudster and a horrible practitioner of medicine, because

00:16:26.180 you said in your 1998 study that the MMR vaccine causes autism, except you didn't say

00:16:31.720 that.

00:16:32.380 Quite the opposite.

00:16:33.760 And we said, what we do need is further research into this matter.

00:16:38.880 And that was it.

00:16:40.600 And the study was really a report of the bowel disease in combination with this regressive

00:16:47.180 developmental disorder.

00:16:49.040 Okay, now, but I read, again, just in popular reporting, this was a few years, more than

00:16:54.340 a few years ago now, that that study, even with its modest conclusion, was retracted by

00:17:01.000 the authors of the study.

00:17:02.300 But I'm sitting across from one of the authors of the study, you didn't retract it.

00:17:06.540 So what was that?

00:17:07.960 Was the study retracted?

00:17:09.160 No, it wasn't.

00:17:10.120 And this is another myth that's been perpetrated by the media.

00:17:14.300 I went into this interview thinking, I don't really know anything about this.

00:17:18.260 And now I'm convinced I actually know less about this than I thought I did going in.

00:17:23.220 Yes.

00:17:24.080 The study, it made no claim of causation.

00:17:30.020 Okay, this was the important thing.

00:17:31.780 And that's what I was accused of, of labeling MMR as the cause of autism.

00:17:36.780 No, we faithfully reported the facts of what we found on clinical investigation, the clinical

00:17:44.000 findings from Professor John Walker-Smith and his team, the pathologist's findings down

00:17:48.840 the microscope from a highly experienced expert pathologist, the psychiatric findings, the

00:17:54.780 neurological findings.

00:17:55.840 That's what we reported.

00:17:57.360 And we urged further research.

00:17:59.780 It was a great opportunity to understand what was going on and take what was historically

00:18:05.180 an irreversible condition and be able to reverse it, be able to treat it, to ameliorate the

00:18:12.800 symptoms in these children and make their lives at least better.

00:18:16.880 So it was an exciting, it should have been an exciting time.

00:18:21.220 But we defended the pharmaceutical industry.

00:18:27.000 We defended government policy and the World Health Organization and UNICEF and the major

00:18:32.860 pharmaceutical companies that make the vaccines, the American government.

00:18:36.640 We defended a lot of people.

00:18:38.580 And at that time-

00:18:39.220 I'm sorry, just to, because I speak American English and not your more beautifully accented

00:18:44.000 English, you're saying, you're not saying we defended, you're saying we had offended.

00:18:48.900 We had offended.

00:18:49.640 Yes.

00:18:50.100 Okay.

00:18:50.540 Yeah.

00:18:50.700 So those are big interests to offend.

00:18:52.400 Oh, yes.

00:18:53.260 The big, huge interest.

00:18:54.500 Now, this is really interesting in a historical context because now we're all familiar with

00:18:59.940 cancel culture.

00:19:00.960 If you are a doctor, however eminent, you stand up and you criticize, say, COVID vaccine policy,

00:19:06.960 that's the end of your job.

00:19:08.660 Doesn't matter how many papers you publish, doesn't matter how eminent you are, you are

00:19:12.280 finished.

00:19:12.800 The way in which the system historically now deals with this kind of problem is to simply

00:19:18.640 cut the person's head off.

00:19:19.920 Except just on the COVID example, we were told by the eminent public health experts and by

00:19:24.780 the politicians who employed them that the COVID vaccine was totally safe.

00:19:30.260 It turned out it was not.

00:19:31.960 People died.

00:19:33.120 That it was totally effective in preventing you from contracting COVID.

00:19:36.880 Those very same public health experts shortly thereafter admitted, actually, it doesn't

00:19:42.080 stop you from receiving the infection.

00:19:44.560 However, it'll stop you from transmitting it.

00:19:46.800 Shortly after that, those very same health experts told us it actually doesn't stop you

00:19:50.280 from transmitting the virus, but it'll ameliorate the conditions.

00:19:54.080 It'll reduce the danger of hospitalization or whatever.

00:19:56.500 My only point on that is, those same public health experts admitted that the things they

00:20:02.960 had just previously said as gospel truth were not true.

00:20:07.340 So already, there's a major credibility issue for the public health experts in recent memory.

00:20:13.340 And so people know that now.

00:20:14.840 They're familiar with it.

00:20:15.680 And the people who, the doctors who stood up against them, were bankrupted by legal fees,

00:20:21.940 were removed from their positions, had their licenses taken away.

00:20:25.480 These were some outstanding clinicians, outstanding academics.

00:20:29.340 And they were just trashed, wasted for all time because they took a moral and professional

00:20:35.600 stand on something.

00:20:36.600 But then it was unheard of.

00:20:39.900 So at the time, it was me and them.

00:20:44.360 And this isn't a sort of feel sorry for Andy Wakefield.

00:20:47.420 It's just an historical fact of life.

00:20:49.760 I do feel a little sorry for you.

00:20:51.100 I mean, you did have your career taken from you.

00:20:52.680 But I was a consenting adult.

00:20:54.400 I knew what I was getting into.

00:20:56.000 And I just felt that I had to pursue this to its natural conclusion.

00:21:01.940 There was nothing terribly grandiose about it.

00:21:04.700 That was just the way I felt.

00:21:06.020 And so I started to get labeled.

00:21:09.440 Obviously, these labels, they perpetuated in the media.

00:21:13.060 Conspiracy theorists.

00:21:13.900 And all kinds of things.

00:21:15.360 And so that's fine.

00:21:17.500 We continued the work until they made it impossible to go any further.

00:21:22.020 And they leveled all kinds of allegations against me and against my colleagues of research misconduct.

00:21:29.740 The worst being the allegation, ultimately, that it was all fraud.

00:21:33.220 It was all made up.

00:21:34.020 And when you control the media, when you are in charge of the media, and your target is one individual with limited resources, that's kind of an easy thing to do.

00:21:48.060 They're an easy target.

00:21:49.100 You take them out.

00:21:49.800 And you hope that by doing that, you will silence them and you will provide an example to everybody else.

00:21:56.340 So they accused you of misconduct in the methods of the study.

00:22:00.760 They accused you of taking money from other interests.

00:22:04.600 They had this whole litany of accusations in the popular media.

00:22:07.780 Was there any truth to the allegations?

00:22:11.400 So there was an element of truth.

00:22:13.660 And the truth is, for example, the lawyers had come to me at some point during the conduct of this work, not the research, not the Lancet paper.

00:22:22.660 And I had agreed, this is very common practice, to undertake a study to determine whether there was a link between the vaccine.

00:22:32.900 Could we identify remnants of the virus in the diseased tissue?

00:22:36.580 That would have been a strong indicator that there was a causal link.

00:22:40.100 It wouldn't have been proof, but it would have been a strong indicator.

00:22:43.100 It was part of that hypothesis testing process.

00:22:46.920 And this is very common.

00:22:48.080 People work for both defendants and for plaintiffs in medical litigation.

00:22:54.080 But I was singled out as, oh, Wakefield's doing this to undermine the MMR vaccine and launch his own vaccine onto the market and make a fortune.

00:23:02.060 Yes, they accused you of having desired a patent for a rival vaccine.

00:23:08.000 So you're not saying that isn't true.

00:23:11.340 You're saying, this is common practice.

00:23:14.100 You're going after me as though I'm doing something different or unethical.

00:23:17.600 And the allegation was I never told anyone.

00:23:20.440 Yeah.

00:23:20.980 Well, a year or two before the paper came out, I wrote to the dean, the medical school officials, to my line manager, Professor Roy Pounder.

00:23:29.780 And I said, I have been asked to undertake this duty on behalf of these children to answer the question, is there not a link with the vaccine or evidence for a link?

00:23:39.560 And I feel morally obliged to do it.

00:23:42.160 And I'm going to do it.

00:23:42.820 So they knew.

00:23:44.480 I then told, it was in the national newspapers a year before the paper came out.

00:23:49.520 And then Richard Horton, the editor of The Lancet that published the paper, who subsequently denied it before the General Medical Council, our licensing body, was told one year before that I was working on behalf of these children in the litigation.

00:24:03.300 There was no attempt to cover it up whatsoever.

00:24:06.640 It was totally transparent.

00:24:07.800 But the allegation was that it was a cover-up.

00:24:11.440 I meant no one knew about it.

00:24:13.360 It was all a big secret.

00:24:14.500 No, it wasn't.

00:24:15.900 No, it wasn't.

00:24:16.560 But what do you do about that?

00:24:20.320 When you don't control the editorial, they can say what they like.

00:24:24.520 And then you've got to unpick that mess afterwards.

00:24:27.160 Do what?

00:24:27.680 Sue them?

00:24:28.900 Sue them?

00:24:29.460 Sue someone costs $3 million.

00:24:31.500 Where are you going to get $3 million from?

00:24:33.120 They know that.

00:24:33.740 These people have limitless resources.

00:24:35.820 Well, the purpose of lawfare is not necessarily to win in a court, though that sometimes happens.

00:24:41.800 It's just to pressure the other guy who doesn't have pockets that are as deep as the litigant.

00:24:48.300 That's right.

00:24:48.620 Justice, it seems to me, belongs to those who can afford it.

00:24:52.280 And that was the circumstance here.

00:24:54.160 So then where does the headline that the study was retracted come from?

00:24:58.480 Is it just out of thin air or was it from The Lancet?

00:25:01.300 Let's come back to that.

00:25:02.440 So I think eight or nine of my colleagues were persuaded to sign the retraction of an interpretation.

00:25:11.600 The interpretation being that MMR vaccine causes autism.

00:25:16.240 I said, guys, when they asked me to sign the retraction, I said, we never made that claim.

00:25:21.480 You're asking me to retract something I didn't say.

00:25:23.460 How can you retract something that doesn't exist?

00:25:25.620 But for political reasons, they were under pressure.

00:25:30.820 I don't judge them, but they fell in line and did that.

00:25:36.440 Three of us, me and two other colleagues, just refused to do that.

00:25:41.460 We said, no, we did not make that that could be retracted in that way.

00:25:46.080 So it wasn't the retraction of the bowel disease or the link with MMR or the regression or the diagnosis in these children.

00:25:56.480 It was a retraction of an interpretation that was never made.

00:26:00.640 And that's the truth behind it.

00:26:03.340 Can I ask you what might be a stupid question?

00:26:05.940 Not at all.

00:26:06.460 Because you're mentioning a rival vaccine, potentially, that could have been patented.

00:26:12.060 Why is it?

00:26:12.700 I mean, I think of this as a parent.

00:26:13.780 I've got three young kids.

00:26:15.200 Why is it that all the doctors are pressuring me to get the MMR vaccine when there's a measles outbreak?

00:26:21.740 So I say, well, can my kid just get the measles vaccine?

00:26:24.880 Why does he have to get measles, mumps, and rubella all at the same time?

00:26:28.060 You know, the vaccine schedule today is so much more intense than it was even when I was a kid and certainly decades prior.

00:26:35.760 Why can't I just go get the M and then the other M and then the R?

00:26:39.780 Why do I have to get them all at the same time?

00:26:41.060 Is there some medical advantage to getting them all at the same time?

00:26:43.060 You know, I don't mean to sound obsequious, but that's an outstanding question.

00:26:46.920 Oh, good.

00:26:47.720 I'm glad it's not a jump.

00:26:48.700 It was a question I asked.

00:26:50.300 I said, what I did is I went away and I researched this.

00:26:54.000 I was an academic.

00:26:55.040 That's what you do.

00:26:55.660 Before you're going to get embroiled in this, you go away and you read every paper you can get your hands on that looks at the pre-licensing studies of these vaccines.

00:27:02.880 And you say, is there any merit?

00:27:06.380 The safety study has been done.

00:27:08.660 And I went through it.

00:27:09.800 I wrote a 250-page report.

00:27:11.460 I thought, I must be missing something.

00:27:16.160 I'm not doing these scientists' credit who did the safety study.

00:27:20.120 There must be something I'm missing.

00:27:21.200 No, I wasn't.

00:27:22.420 The safety studies on the vaccine were undertaken in small populations.

00:27:26.240 They were not controlled trials.

00:27:28.360 They were nothing that would have passed a drug trial for the FDA.

00:27:33.060 And they were done on children in mental institutions because they were expendable.

00:27:40.460 I was staggered by this when I found out, like Willowbrook State School in Manhattan, in Staten Island, New York.

00:27:47.640 Children whose lives were at the time deemed to be, they were up for experimentation.

00:27:54.640 And this is where a lot of the vaccine safety trials were done.

00:27:58.040 In children who were severely mentally and physically debilitated.

00:28:02.060 And I thought, I can't believe this.

00:28:04.560 This is staggeringly unethical on every level.

00:28:09.500 There was no mention of fully informed consent whatsoever.

00:28:14.620 And these children were just used as experimental subjects.

00:28:18.500 Now, there's a moral issue to that, an ethical issue.

00:28:22.100 There's also a practical issue.

00:28:23.360 And that is one of the concerns about measles vaccines is that they cause brain injury.

00:28:27.880 And measles causes brain injury.

00:28:29.640 So if you're looking for evidence of brain injury in already brain-injured children, are you going to find it?

00:28:37.880 Right.

00:28:38.520 Can you extrapolate from those brain-injured children to a normal population of healthy children?

00:28:43.920 No, you can't.

00:28:45.220 But this is where the safety studies were done.

00:28:47.120 And when I finished that, I became more convinced than ever that I needed to pursue this to its natural conclusion.

00:28:55.860 Not that MMR causes autism.

00:28:57.500 Now, why MMR?

00:28:59.960 Because when they put the three together, did they conduct the safety studies to determine whether one and three were equal in terms of their safety profile or something quite different?

00:29:10.680 Right.

00:29:10.920 No, they didn't.

00:29:12.340 Again, I was surprised.

00:29:13.620 Because if I gave you three antihypertensive drugs, three blood pressure drugs at once, it would kill you.

00:29:18.960 Yeah.

00:29:19.240 And it would kill everybody it's been put into.

00:29:21.720 So why is it okay when you're taking three live viruses and putting them together in combination in a way that nature has never seen them before?

00:29:30.060 Right.

00:29:30.340 Why is that okay?

00:29:32.600 And so I did the research, and I found precisely that there was interference between the viruses in the combined vaccine.

00:29:42.280 But people are just, okay, moved on.

00:29:45.100 Interference meaning what?

00:29:46.480 Interference is that the immune response induced by the single vaccine was different from that produced by the combination, the mumps in particular, interfering with the measles.

00:29:58.920 So I said to the Department of Health, because I said parents might want to opt for the single vaccine at the time they were available in the UK and the US.

00:30:08.980 I would be much more likely really on any vaccine to say, okay, we'll give them the single one first, and then maybe in eight months we'll give them the other one, and then six months, I don't know.

00:30:17.160 It seems more prudent to me, more cautious.

00:30:19.580 And I said to my colleagues, if asked by the media, this is the position I take.

00:30:25.640 Vigorously support the continued use of the single vaccine, because that's what I believed at the time.

00:30:31.320 But I can't continue to endorse this vaccine that's never been tested independently for safety.

00:30:36.640 What happened is in the UK, the government stopped the importation license of the MMR vaccine, the main one we used.

00:30:47.080 So you could no longer get it.

00:30:49.120 It was our way or the highway.

00:30:52.580 And so the option for parents was taken away, even if they wanted to protect their child against measles.

00:30:58.060 But you're saying they'd stop the importation of the single vaccine or of the M?

00:31:02.440 Of the single.

00:31:02.780 Just the M?

00:31:03.160 Okay, yeah, yeah.

00:31:03.760 So the solution to your perfectly reasonable question was, well, now the parents won't even have the option.

00:31:13.360 The only, they have to get the triple dose if they want any vaccine at all for measles, mumps, or rubella.

00:31:19.260 That's right.

00:31:19.760 And what happened in the US is Merck unilaterally made the policy decision that they were going to stop making the singles or marketing the singles.

00:31:27.820 It was only going to be the combination.

00:31:29.260 I hate to ask you to engage in psychobabble, but I don't hate it that much because I want to know.

00:31:35.360 What were they thinking?

00:31:38.000 I don't know.

00:31:39.020 I asked them.

00:31:40.140 I said to the head of vaccination in the UK, why, if your objective is to protect children against measles, principally against measles,

00:31:50.780 why would you take away the option of parents being able to do it with a single vaccine?

00:31:56.880 Yeah.

00:31:57.480 And she said, because if we did that, it would destroy our MMR program.

00:32:02.680 So the concern was for the program and not for the well-being of children.

00:32:09.080 And I was absolutely astonished.

00:32:11.220 One, that she said it.

00:32:12.560 She actually admitted to it.

00:32:13.820 And two, that you would do that.

00:32:15.600 So, and I said to David Salisbury, who was head of the government side of the vaccine,

00:32:21.060 did you not do the safety studies to compare the single measles with the triple vaccine?

00:32:26.740 And he said, no, we assumed that there would be no difference.

00:32:30.920 You don't make assumptions on behalf of every child in your country.

00:32:35.240 You do not do it.

00:32:36.820 They assumed that the COVID vaccine was going to be safe and made a decision on behalf of 9 billion, 8 million, 8 billion people in the world.

00:32:46.000 Yeah.

00:32:46.780 Without, you know, when they said it can be injected and it'll stay at the vaccination site.

00:32:52.760 That was an assumption.

00:32:53.780 They then found it went everywhere in the body, in particular, got into the brain and the ovaries and wherever else.

00:33:00.460 That assumption was entirely wrong.

00:33:02.280 You don't make assumptions about safety on behalf of anyone, let alone 8 billion people.

00:33:10.100 So, at this point, what year is this that the UK decides, all right, we're going to ban the importation of the single dose?

00:33:16.800 When did that happen?

00:33:18.000 This is towards the end of the 1980s.

00:33:20.520 Sorry, the 1990s.

00:33:21.960 1990s.

00:33:22.400 Okay.

00:33:22.600 The paper came out in 98, so we're talking about the subsequent two years.

00:33:26.420 Okay.

00:33:26.900 So, they say, all right, no more.

00:33:29.160 You have to get the MMR.

00:33:31.640 At this point, this is the time, late 90s, early 2000s, that people are really starting to speak about the link.

00:33:37.860 Bobby Kennedy, now the Secretary of Health and Human Services, is suggesting this link between vaccines and autism.

00:33:44.540 As you say, your paper invited further research.

00:33:48.000 It would seem to me, I guess, in my innocence, that this would be a great opportunity for a scientist.

00:33:53.980 Wow, this is great.

00:33:54.980 You know, we could, I could make my bones proving something really important in medicine.

00:34:00.940 Does any further research happen?

00:34:03.000 We started to do a lot of research.

00:34:06.460 And we published, before I left the Royal Free, it wasn't just that Lancet paper.

00:34:11.400 We published 17, 15 papers on this subject, pursuing it to its natural conclusion.

00:34:18.300 But it was sabotaged, and that came to an end.

00:34:20.540 But I had the opportunity to go and present to the CDC in 2001.

00:34:26.200 I went to present to the Oversight Committee on Government Reform under Dan Burton.

00:34:31.700 And then I went to a meeting with the CDC, and they said,

00:34:34.840 Dr. Wakefield, look, every kid gets MMR vaccine, some get autism.

00:34:38.740 How do you explain that?

00:34:39.800 Why don't they all get it?

00:34:41.320 Well, that's medicine.

00:34:43.160 A lot of people smoke, some people develop lung cancer.

00:34:46.520 We don't know why.

00:34:47.620 There are cofactors that influence your risk.

00:34:51.060 But that's the way medicine works.

00:34:53.400 What I said to them is, my group, and I am particularly interested in patterns of exposure,

00:34:58.420 unusual patterns of exposure.

00:35:01.240 For example, exposure early in life.

00:35:05.360 Measles, when you get it under one, is associated with a much greater risk profile

00:35:09.860 than if you get it after one, when your immune system intuitively is more mature.

00:35:15.260 So does the same pertain to the MMR?

00:35:18.620 Right.

00:35:18.740 If you get it younger, are you at greater risk of this adverse reaction being regressive

00:35:24.460 autism than if you get it, say, 15, 20 months later?

00:35:29.500 And they said, okay, we'll look at that.

00:35:32.720 They went away.

00:35:33.360 And to their credit, they did that study.

00:35:36.180 And they found that it was exactly true.

00:35:38.500 It was a highly significant risk of autism in those children who got the measles vaccine,

00:35:45.260 the MMR vaccine on time, 12 to 18 months, 12 to 15 months, compared with getting it later.

00:35:50.940 The hypothesis turned out to be true.

00:35:54.480 But you mentioned earlier that you might have some of these risk factors just from getting measles,

00:35:59.680 just getting the virus.

00:36:01.100 So could one argue, well, it's better to get the MMR vaccine at a younger age because if they get measles below the age of one,

00:36:10.940 they're going to be right there in the same predicament.

00:36:13.100 Is measles a greater risk factor for developing these symptoms than the MMR vaccine?

00:36:19.620 Is there any difference between the two?

00:36:21.720 From the clinical perspective, I can say that of all the children, by the time I left the Royal Free,

00:36:27.060 we'd seen 183 children with this syndrome.

00:36:29.500 And in those, there were just two who'd had the single measles vaccine.

00:36:35.740 The rest of it had MMR.

00:36:37.660 So it seemed to be, at least at the clinical level, an idiosyncrasy of the MMR vaccine,

00:36:43.460 if there were a causal association.

00:36:45.500 The other question you have to answer is, if yes, if the prevalence of the disease had remained constant,

00:36:50.940 or had even gone down with vaccination,

00:36:53.680 then it may have been that single measles, the natural measles, was more dangerous.

00:36:57.920 But it had gone up exponentially.

00:36:59.300 It had gone up dramatically.

00:37:01.360 And so the opposite seemed to be true, that this combination, given early, was a risk factor,

00:37:07.880 which is what the study found.

00:37:09.680 So we knew nothing about that.

00:37:14.100 Why?

00:37:14.460 Because the CDC buried it.

00:37:16.920 They buried it for 14 years.

00:37:20.080 They put millions of American children at risk of a serious permanent neurological disease

00:37:25.500 in order to protect themselves, their credibility, and the program.

00:37:30.180 They destroyed documents.

00:37:32.160 They altered the data.

00:37:33.440 And they presented a paper that said, it's okay.

00:37:37.660 It's fine.

00:37:38.460 Go back in the water.

00:37:40.700 You know, the vaccine is safe.

00:37:42.260 And this only came to light when Dr. William Thompson, the senior author on that study,

00:37:48.220 the man who'd designed the study, collected the data, collated it, interpreted the data,

00:37:53.940 called a scientist, Dr. Brian Hooker, and said, we've done a terrible thing.

00:37:59.280 And I can no longer live with it.

00:38:01.680 And I kept the original data, even though my colleagues destroyed it, because I knew

00:38:06.120 it was foirable.

00:38:07.720 I knew that it may become part of some legal proceeding.

00:38:12.120 Here it is.

00:38:13.100 And he handed it over.

00:38:14.400 And it showed beyond a shadow of a doubt that the CDC had committed the most outrageous fraud

00:38:21.260 in the context of this vaccine.

00:38:22.980 And that was the thing that really convinced me that it was the cause.

00:38:26.160 It wasn't my study, or even the subsequent studies.

00:38:30.660 That strengthened my belief that there may be a cause.

00:38:33.480 But the need for the CDC to do that really convinced me that they knew there was a problem now.

00:38:40.480 So ironically, you're convinced of this link between the MMR and autism, not by your own

00:38:48.140 research, primarily by your own research, but by the CDC, which then sought to totally

00:38:54.320 undermine your credibility.

00:38:55.440 Absolutely.

00:38:56.160 And then Thompson said, you know, this is 14 years later with all that damage done.

00:39:01.800 It didn't mean at this stage still that the vaccine caused the disease in scientific terms.

00:39:08.260 What it meant was the CDC had had an obligation to do a bigger, better study somewhere else to

00:39:14.180 see if they could replicate it, or to at least advise parents that they may wish to delay

00:39:19.860 the vaccine while this issue was being resolved.

00:39:22.120 But they did none of those things.

00:39:23.680 They buried it and caused terrible damage in order to protect themselves and their reputations.

00:39:30.080 And that I found absolutely heartbreaking.

00:39:33.720 And William Thompson, the CDC scientist, contacted my wife, sent her and said, we could have salvaged

00:39:41.340 your husband's career if we'd been honest.

00:39:43.300 Well, it's irrelevant.

00:39:44.300 It doesn't matter about me because the issue isn't about me.

00:39:51.260 It's not about me.

00:39:52.220 It's about something much more important.

00:39:54.780 It's about all of those children out there who were exposed unknowingly to this issue when

00:40:02.580 the truth was something quite different.

00:40:04.200 It was really sad.

00:40:06.200 And so I can live with whatever's happened to me because, as I say, I was a consenting adult.

00:40:13.020 I knew what I was getting into, at least to some extent.

00:40:16.220 And I could have pulled out at any stage.

00:40:18.640 These children couldn't.

00:40:19.580 They had no voice.

00:40:20.320 So the CDC conducts this study, proves your point, buries the study, then comes out and

00:40:28.140 says the MMR is great.

00:40:29.680 On what basis, if any, does the CDC say, forget about that study that we're not going to tell

00:40:36.300 you about the MMR is great?

00:40:38.160 They don't.

00:40:39.440 And this is why when we made the movie Vaxxed, which took their recording, recordings of William

00:40:47.380 Thompson admitting to this, of all the original documents, this is why when we made that,

00:40:53.020 which effectively accused them of the most egregious fraud, we heard nothing more.

00:40:58.640 There was no pushback.

00:40:59.960 If we'd said one thing that was out of line, that was false, that was defamatory, we would

00:41:04.480 have been sued to the moon and back.

00:41:06.280 For every penny you were worth it.

00:41:07.780 Absolutely.

00:41:08.640 And they said not a word.

00:41:10.280 Why?

00:41:11.240 Because they knew it was true.

00:41:13.260 And that's where we are today.

00:41:14.740 We took it to Congress.

00:41:15.680 We said, you have got to have an inquiry.

00:41:18.080 You've got to investigate this.

00:41:19.960 They didn't want to touch it.

00:41:22.240 They didn't want to touch it.

00:41:23.940 Whether it was true or not didn't matter.

00:41:25.440 They didn't want to touch it.

00:41:27.420 So as all this is going down, you're facing not only soft pressure and reprisals, but they

00:41:36.300 took away your medical license.

00:41:38.860 How did that happen?

00:41:40.000 Where does that stand now?

00:41:41.020 Why haven't you sued them into the ground to get your medical license back?

00:41:43.500 Well, you could say, why would I want to be part of that villainous crowd?

00:41:48.780 Fair enough.

00:41:49.660 I really want to do it.

00:41:50.760 Now I'm a filmmaker.

00:41:52.040 I write and make films.

00:41:55.200 That was in England.

00:41:56.280 I now live in Austin, Texas.

00:41:58.500 And it was, I could dwell on that.

00:42:01.660 I could go back and use whatever resources I have left in the world to try and restore

00:42:06.840 my credibility, my standing in the world.

00:42:12.040 I don't care.

00:42:13.420 I really, it's not important.

00:42:15.320 If I have a limited amount of time left on this planet, I'm not going to indulge it trying

00:42:20.580 to exonerate Andy Wakefield or have his name, have the media reverse their position.

00:42:25.240 They're not going to do that.

00:42:26.180 And I don't care.

00:42:27.000 It isn't important.

00:42:29.820 There is something far more important.

00:42:32.100 And that, of course, is the position.

00:42:34.120 It hasn't gone away.

00:42:35.280 You've got to ask yourself, why is it being talked about now more than ever, particularly

00:42:38.560 with Bobby Kennedy in the White House?

00:42:41.120 Things have changed dramatically.

00:42:42.940 And this is because of not only the truth of the parents' original story that has borne

00:42:50.500 out, but because a few people have stood by those parents and continued to research

00:42:56.640 this to its natural conclusion, including Bobby Kennedy.

00:43:00.220 Now, what was the justification for not just going after you for some study, but for revoking

00:43:05.960 your medical license?

00:43:07.860 Well, for example, I'll give you some examples.

00:43:09.960 We conducted unethical research on developmentally compromised children without the appropriate

00:43:17.520 approval from an ethics committee.

00:43:20.780 So we were alleged to have conducted unethical research.

00:43:26.420 No, we didn't.

00:43:27.540 Firstly, it was clinical investigation.

00:43:31.180 It was merited clinical investigation based not on my opinion, based upon the opinion of one

00:43:37.340 of the world's leading pediatric gastroenterologists and his team of clinicians, who then discovered

00:43:43.220 a new inflammatory bowel disease.

00:43:46.140 Okay?

00:43:46.640 So you're having a journalist, a sort of hack journalist, saying it's not ethical, when

00:43:52.100 Professor Walker-Smith, in testimony, says it absolutely was ethical.

00:43:56.740 This investigation needed to be done on clinical grounds.

00:44:01.060 It didn't matter.

00:44:03.340 To the General Medical Council panel, we were guilty of experimenting on children.

00:44:08.260 So they'd made their minds up before we ever went into that room.

00:44:11.740 And there's an irony, as you mentioned earlier, that the safety studies on the vaccines conducted

00:44:16.560 by the powers that be were conducted on vulnerable children.

00:44:20.900 Seemed rather unethical to me when they were doing it.

00:44:24.200 It would have been unethical of us not to do it.

00:44:28.320 Absolutely unethical of us not to do it.

00:44:30.380 We did it.

00:44:30.880 We found that the parents were right.

00:44:32.300 The children had a disease which we could then treat.

00:44:35.480 But no, they held that we were experimenting on vulnerable children.

00:44:41.620 It was beyond belief.

00:44:43.200 When I finished that hearing, which was the longest hearing in the history of the General

00:44:48.500 Medical Council, our licensing body, my senior barrister said to me, based upon the evidence,

00:44:54.240 there is absolutely no way that they can find you guilty of anything at all.

00:44:59.200 They found me guilty on every single charge.

00:45:02.960 And I just, I knew.

00:45:04.140 I knew before that, the fix was in before we even got through the door.

00:45:07.580 But, you know, this is the way medicine operates.

00:45:10.860 It's the way they've dealt with Peter McCullough and other people in the wake of COVID.

00:45:15.200 It doesn't matter whether you publish 700 and odd papers, you're the most published cardiologist

00:45:21.100 in the history of the planet.

00:45:23.200 It doesn't matter.

00:45:24.680 They know better because they're going to break you.

00:45:27.120 Now, I want to get back to Bobby Kennedy and the White House and what's maybe going to

00:45:31.700 change about vaccine policy.

00:45:33.760 But just as a very simple matter, does this vaccine cause autism?

00:45:41.220 Are you willing to say, yes, it does?

00:45:43.720 Or are you saying, look, I just think this should be investigated, as I said in my 1998

00:45:47.720 study.

00:45:48.420 And how concerned should parents be?

00:45:50.860 I wouldn't change my position.

00:45:53.020 Yes, it needs, in my personal belief, there is a very strong indication that it causes autism.

00:45:59.820 But that's not good enough.

00:46:01.300 You don't make public policy on Andy Wakefield's belief.

00:46:04.460 It needs the science that we advocated for all those years ago.

00:46:07.960 Because when you say that, you who are being called reckless and irresponsible and unethical,

00:46:14.260 what you're saying seems much more measured and scientifically grounded and ethically grounded

00:46:19.500 than what the government is saying, which is, we're not going to investigate these things.

00:46:24.460 We're going to shut this down.

00:46:25.560 Everyone just needs to take these vaccines.

00:46:27.560 Forget about dubious studies.

00:46:29.520 I was just sitting down with Secretary Kennedy a few weeks ago at the White House.

00:46:32.860 And we got onto the topic of vaccines.

00:46:36.300 I said, is anything going to change?

00:46:37.260 He said, everything's going to change because we're going to base this on the science now.

00:46:40.680 And he brought up one of the objections, which is, people point out, there is an adverse

00:46:46.320 reaction database for vaccines, VAERS.

00:46:49.740 And people, if they think their kid has had an adverse reaction, they can file a claim.

00:46:54.140 There have been payouts.

00:46:55.440 There have been laws passed by Congress.

00:46:57.180 And yet, what the CDC says is, well, the database is not reliable.

00:47:02.120 And what do I know?

00:47:02.940 I don't know if it's reliable or not.

00:47:04.200 But I asked this to Secretary Kennedy.

00:47:06.020 And Kennedy said, well, don't you think after so many decades, we should have a reliable

00:47:12.540 data?

00:47:12.940 Why don't we have a reliable database?

00:47:15.240 It was inherently designed to be unreliable so that it couldn't be used to do studies of

00:47:20.780 causation.

00:47:22.140 It ascertains 1% of true adverse reactions.

00:47:25.380 And so it has no meaning.

00:47:29.400 It has very little meaning at all.

00:47:31.300 And it was designed with that intention.

00:47:35.000 Let me, if I may, let me just read you something that puts this in context.

00:47:39.640 This is a government document.

00:47:40.920 It's very brief.

00:47:42.160 This is the playing field upon which we're working on and where Bobby Kennedy is now.

00:47:48.040 And this is the Federal Register, Government Document, Rules and Regulations, 1984.

00:47:54.280 It says, and this is from the officials, any possible doubts, whether or not well-founded

00:48:00.800 about the safety of the vaccine cannot be allowed to exist in view of the need for the

00:48:07.280 vaccination to continue to be used to the maximum extent consistent with nation's public

00:48:12.540 health objectives.

00:48:13.280 Now, this is fascinating, and it just tells you where we are.

00:48:17.920 Any possible doubt, this parent reports, for example, whether or not well-founded, as

00:48:24.740 no matter where it's good science or bad science, about the safety of vaccines cannot be allowed

00:48:30.500 to exist.

00:48:32.140 That is a staggering statement, but that's where we are.

00:48:39.200 It just tells you, then, these reporting mechanisms are bogus from the outset because they're saying

00:48:45.360 the purpose is not to ascertain whether or not there are real adverse events or to investigate

00:48:50.020 the cause or to fix them.

00:48:51.360 It's to protect the vaccine regime.

00:48:53.780 Absolutely.

00:48:54.180 And anything that gets in the way of that will be crushed.

00:48:58.300 So why do they want to do it?

00:49:00.440 Is it just money?

00:49:02.160 Is it agency capture by the pharmaceutical companies?

00:49:07.000 It's so difficult for me to believe that people are willing to compromise the health of America's

00:49:14.120 children for generations just to make a buck.

00:49:16.520 But is that it?

00:49:17.200 Is that just what it's all about?

00:49:18.580 I think there are very, very powerful financial interests that have a profound influence upon

00:49:24.600 the regulators, the FDA and the CDC, the vaccine manufacturers.

00:49:28.580 This is a huge market.

00:49:30.220 Why?

00:49:30.520 Because they have a mandatory market and no liability for any damage done.

00:49:35.260 You have the perfect business model.

00:49:36.960 And this was something that really was enshrined in the 1986 National Childhood Vaccine Injury

00:49:42.620 Act, is that they took liability away from the manufacturers for death and injury caused

00:49:47.500 by their vaccines that were on the CDC's recommended schedule.

00:49:51.220 It was a goldmine, a goldmine, a mandatory market.

00:49:55.900 Kids had to have the vaccines to go to school and no liability.

00:49:59.600 I mean, you're just going to clean up.

00:50:02.580 And that's what they did.

00:50:03.240 And so the vaccine schedule expanded dramatically from that point forward.

00:50:07.840 The other elements of that National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act were that safety science

00:50:13.500 should be conducted.

00:50:14.280 They set up the VAERS, which was totally useless, so they couldn't use it for safety science.

00:50:19.340 And children should be compensated if they are the victims on the battlefield of our war,

00:50:24.940 the public health war against infectious disease.

00:50:27.160 And that has been a catastrophe for the families.

00:50:30.260 They've had to prove that the vaccine injured their child.

00:50:34.760 How do you do that?

00:50:36.220 How do you do that?

00:50:37.080 You're a parent.

00:50:37.840 You don't have laboratories.

00:50:39.080 You don't have finance.

00:50:40.120 You don't have resources.

00:50:40.780 But the bonus, the burden of proof is on the parents.

00:50:44.320 So absolutely staggering.

00:50:46.380 But if they can prove it, with all the difficulty that that entails, then they will be paid,

00:50:52.960 though not by the pharmaceutical companies.

00:50:55.380 They'll be paid by the government.

00:50:56.720 Do I have that right?

00:50:57.720 Paid by the people.

00:50:58.880 Paid by the taxpayers.

00:50:59.680 Paid by the people.

00:51:00.280 Paid by the taxpayers.

00:51:01.480 So it's not the drug companies.

00:51:03.240 They're off the hook.

00:51:04.600 It comes from a sort of tax levied on every vaccine that's sold.

00:51:08.940 And that always, you know, trickles down to the taxpayers.

00:51:12.880 But how can they, on the one hand, say the vaccines are safe.

00:51:16.340 If you have any question about vaccine safety, you're a total kook.

00:51:19.340 You should be run out of society.

00:51:20.540 You can't go to school.

00:51:21.440 Can't go to a doctor's office a lot of the time.

00:51:24.840 But if the thing happens to your kid that we're telling you can't happen, don't worry.

00:51:29.700 We'll pay you to shut you up.

00:51:30.720 How do you hold those are contradictory statements?

00:51:34.400 Well, and the statement that you alluded to that vaccines are safe and effective.

00:51:38.940 They're not.

00:51:40.060 They're not safe.

00:51:41.920 The determinants for safety.

00:51:43.800 I mean, the government itself has said vaccines are unavoidably unsafe.

00:51:49.500 That's what they've said.

00:51:50.240 So how can they hold these two conflicting opinions?

00:51:53.260 I mean, this isn't me.

00:51:54.280 This is them saying vaccines are unavoidably unsafe.

00:51:57.560 For a vaccine to be safe, firstly, the golden rules are that it is unsafe until proven otherwise,

00:52:03.480 until the studies have been done.

00:52:05.200 And those studies have to involve long-term placebo-controlled, randomized,

00:52:10.600 in susceptible populations against, you know, a truly inert placebo.

00:52:16.580 Those have never been done for any vaccine on the childhood schedule,

00:52:22.160 except the latest, the COVID vaccine.

00:52:24.980 It's never been done for any of them.

00:52:26.180 And so you simply cannot say, as a matter of scientific fact, that they're safe.

00:52:31.820 No, they're not.

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00:53:34.700 I want to be clear here because Bobby Kennedy just announced

00:53:38.060 that now there will be controlled studies with placebos

00:53:42.420 to test the safety and efficacy of the vaccines.

00:53:44.700 You're telling me before now, though, there have never been studies with placebos.

00:53:49.900 When Bobby Kennedy met with Fauci and Collins in the White House,

00:53:54.560 they said, oh, yes, they have.

00:53:55.520 We've got a stack of papers here.

00:53:56.720 He said, show me, please.

00:53:58.080 Show me one of these studies.

00:53:59.560 Oh, we haven't got it here.

00:54:00.360 We'll send it to you.

00:54:01.680 Never got sent.

00:54:02.580 Several years later, they admitted that Bobby Kennedy was absolutely right.

00:54:07.140 It had never been done.

00:54:08.440 Now, I've heard that the explanation, when they're saying,

00:54:13.200 if they're admitting that there are not placebo-controlled studies,

00:54:16.440 they'll say, well, the reason is it would be unethical not to give the vaccine to some kids.

00:54:21.260 In other words, just to conduct the study with placebos means we're depriving certain children

00:54:25.780 of the vaccines, and that in itself would be unethical.

00:54:29.040 How's that argument?

00:54:29.740 What a circular argument that is.

00:54:31.520 I mean, what a get-out-of-jail card that is.

00:54:34.300 They should have been done.

00:54:35.120 There's no excuse for them not being done.

00:54:37.540 Again, if I gave you a new antihypertensive drug with that argument in mind,

00:54:41.520 saying, there it is.

00:54:42.880 It's off the shelf.

00:54:44.240 We just made it.

00:54:45.260 What do you think?

00:54:46.260 Take it.

00:54:47.120 And the FDA would laugh you out of town.

00:54:52.700 And yet, here we are with these vaccines.

00:54:55.780 They're doing just that.

00:54:57.100 So I'm sorry.

00:54:58.680 But safety comes first.

00:55:00.740 But then, Bobby Kennedy right now is being blamed for the same thing that you've been blamed for

00:55:04.700 for decades, for this outbreak of measles.

00:55:07.300 And I see it.

00:55:08.080 I read it in the news all the time.

00:55:09.520 And people ask me about it.

00:55:10.420 Oh, you saw measles is breaking out in Texas.

00:55:13.060 Measles is breaking out in Tennessee.

00:55:14.540 And even for me, and I'm pretty chill about these things.

00:55:18.940 I don't stay up at night worried about the next great fear-mongering campaign in the media.

00:55:24.100 But even I think, well, I don't want my kids to get measles.

00:55:27.380 So is there anything to worry about?

00:55:29.980 Let me show you something I think you'll find absolutely fascinating.

00:55:34.220 I don't know whether we, I'd love to be able to put this on camera.

00:55:38.140 But this is a graph of measles mortality over the last 150 years.

00:55:49.020 This is the UK, but the US is exactly the same.

00:55:52.100 Yeah.

00:55:52.180 So what you can see, these are the deaths per million children affected, okay?

00:56:00.380 And what you can see is that measles up until the 1920s was a major killer.

00:56:07.440 120 per million children getting measles.

00:56:11.200 After 1920, it plummeted dramatically till it approached zero deaths.

00:56:18.460 Measles was still prevalent, but it was becoming a dramatically milder and milder disease.

00:56:25.040 They will never show you this.

00:56:26.340 Now, the source for this is Thomas McCowan's modern rise of population, if anyone wants to look that up.

00:56:33.520 Now, the question here is, what would have happened if we'd never intervened with vaccination?

00:56:38.240 You can see that vaccines had nothing to do with this.

00:56:40.660 Right.

00:56:40.920 Because there's a little dot here.

00:56:43.960 Immunization we got.

00:56:44.600 So it's already collapsed.

00:56:45.820 By 99.96%.

00:56:48.500 What would have happened, here's the first scientific question, if we had never intervened with a vaccine?

00:56:55.300 We don't know, because of course we did, but it would likely have continued to zero.

00:57:00.200 It was becoming a dramatically milder disease.

00:57:02.760 Now, there are many reasons for this.

00:57:04.740 Virus-related factors, human-related factors, better sanitation, better nutrition.

00:57:09.680 Right.

00:57:09.900 Decline in other infectious diseases that cause secondary pneumonias, for example.

00:57:15.280 But the fact is, this is natural herd immunity in operation, and it is extraordinarily effective.

00:57:22.020 Sir Graham Wilson, when they first entertained the idea of universal measles vaccination, was invited from the UK to talk at the NIH about whether they should do it or not.

00:57:36.860 And he said, don't.

00:57:37.580 Don't do it.

00:57:38.580 Don't do it.

00:57:39.540 You do not know what you're doing.

00:57:41.180 You may alter the age of measles by pushing it out to the, you know, older age groups, younger age groups, when it may be more dangerous.

00:57:48.580 One child per million, 100,000 in the UK, may die during an epidemic.

00:57:53.860 One in, the same is true, perhaps in America.

00:57:57.060 He said, the question you should be asking is, what's different about that one child?

00:58:00.940 What can we do to prevent the disease, the death in that one child, rather than giving every child a measles vaccine about which you know nothing in terms of the long-term consequences?

00:58:12.280 There seem to be a lot of parallels here to COVID, which was, COVID comes out.

00:58:16.280 Very quickly, it's clear, COVID does not really pose much of a risk to little babies, actually, or to healthy young people.

00:58:24.380 Maybe there's a risk to older people or people who have immune system conditions.

00:58:28.740 But the vast majority of people did not face a major risk from COVID.

00:58:35.340 And yet, rather than the government going out and saying, okay, the people who maybe are at risk, maybe they should take the vaccine, even if it's experimental, even if it's really recent.

00:58:43.100 Instead, every single person, all these young, healthy people were mandated to get it.

00:58:49.640 Yes, I think COVID, the whole COVID experience was the biggest mistake they ever made.

00:58:54.580 Because it caused people like yourself and others to say, hang on a minute, we've been lied to.

00:59:02.560 The experts told us this, none of what they said was sustainable.

00:59:06.040 And yet, we've been compromised, both economically, our jobs, financially, health-wise, by this draconian policy.

00:59:17.640 Politically.

00:59:18.260 I mean, just socially, you couldn't hug your loved ones as they were dying of old age.

00:59:24.080 You couldn't go to Christmas.

00:59:25.360 You had to postpone your wedding.

00:59:26.700 You couldn't go to school.

00:59:27.600 You couldn't—they just destroyed our lives for years with apparently no medical basis for it.

00:59:36.340 Yes, and that's what turns out.

00:59:38.280 And there is a realization globally.

00:59:42.080 I mean, when I first got involved in this, there were perhaps a handful of people worldwide who were prepared to discuss the thorny issue of vaccine safety.

00:59:51.540 Now, it's more than half the adult population of the world.

00:59:53.860 And that is because of their mistakes, not because of me.

00:59:58.840 It's no good blaming me or you having, you know, you because you had me on the show.

01:00:02.740 This is at their door.

01:00:05.300 This is their mistake.

01:00:07.500 They have done this, and they only have themselves to blame.

01:00:11.040 And they will attract public confidence in public health policymakers by everything that they've done.

01:00:17.740 And as the truth emerges, as Bobby Kennedy gets to the root cause of these problems, and there'll be a lot of pushback, a lot of politicizing, a lot of money-changing hands.

01:00:29.420 But I'm afraid that the inevitable will turn out to be true.

01:00:33.340 What is that?

01:00:34.140 That the parents' original story was faithful and correct and merely sought to say, this is what happened to my child.

01:00:43.240 Well, I'm glad you presented in this way because I think to myself, I don't think I'm an anti-vaxxer.

01:00:51.160 I don't know much about the issue.

01:00:54.940 I'm not anti-institutions.

01:00:57.480 I'm not anti-expertise per se.

01:01:00.000 Practically speaking now, though, I'm really skeptical of a lot of the powerful institutions and of the experts.

01:01:07.160 And I think it really isn't me.

01:01:09.900 I really wish that the experts had not beclowned themselves and lied to us and deceived us for years.

01:01:16.960 It's really irritating to me now that I can't trust the public health experts and the politicians and the big institutions.

01:01:23.980 But what am I to do when I can prove with certainty, at least in the case of COVID, they lied to me.

01:01:31.680 They said one thing out of one side of their mouth privately and another thing to the public.

01:01:35.820 And then they contradicted the thing they said to the public, to the public again six months later.

01:01:40.660 If I am even remotely a reasonable person, what am I supposed to do with that?

01:01:45.200 I cannot have faith in those people anymore.

01:01:47.620 And don't blame me for it.

01:01:49.260 I wish they hadn't squandered their credibility.

01:01:51.880 I wish I could trust them, but I have to react in a reasonable way to their bad behavior.

01:01:58.720 And this is, there are some good people in the system.

01:02:02.260 And this is when I, everything else was taken away from me.

01:02:05.500 I thought, how can I continue to serve this cause?

01:02:08.940 How can I continue to move this forward?

01:02:10.700 And so I loved screenwriting and I became a filmmaker.

01:02:14.520 And that's what I do because I'd become a, people from industry and from the federal agencies who were good, who had a moral conviction, came to me and said, you know, we've done this terrible thing.

01:02:27.060 Here is the evidence.

01:02:28.480 And I had all this extraordinary insider story sort of evidence.

01:02:31.740 And I thought, you know what, these would make amazing films.

01:02:36.000 And so since I was sort of disenfranchised in the arena of medicine and science, then I had to be a pain in their ass some other way.

01:02:44.620 That's right.

01:02:45.200 And you obviously have an expertise.

01:02:46.980 I seem to have refined the art.

01:02:48.840 Yeah, and an expertise in that.

01:02:50.300 That's good too.

01:02:50.900 I should hold seminars on it.

01:02:51.580 Anyway, I, that's what I did.

01:02:54.580 I started making documentaries initially and then moved into feature films.

01:02:58.740 And we, I was never going to make a COVID film at all.

01:03:01.920 Didn't I just, no, please don't make me do that.

01:03:04.460 Because where do you even begin?

01:03:06.480 It's so big.

01:03:07.840 It's enormous.

01:03:09.620 Where do you begin?

01:03:10.340 It's the lies, the cover up, the lab leak, the whole thing.

01:03:15.320 And I thought there are 2,000 unemployed screenwriters in Hollywood doing exactly that right now.

01:03:19.340 I don't want to get involved in that.

01:03:20.480 And then a story came along, which was fascinating.

01:03:25.540 And just in, you know, if we can talk about this just very briefly.

01:03:29.680 Sound of Freedom.

01:03:31.480 Yeah.

01:03:31.740 The value of Sound of Freedom, the skill of it as a film, was that it didn't take on every child who'd ever been trafficked as an issue.

01:03:40.380 It took on the rescue of two children.

01:03:43.660 And an audience needs to engage.

01:03:46.380 An audience needs to fall in love with its protagonist.

01:03:49.140 An audience needs to want the salvation of those two children.

01:03:54.100 And when that happens, and when they bought into that, they can then extrapolate to every child who's ever been trafficked.

01:04:01.960 But you can't do it the other way around.

01:04:03.680 So you start with the individual story and you then bring in the global catastrophe.

01:04:09.440 And so we had this story in Thailand, which did just that.

01:04:14.300 So we took the life and death of one character and then bought in all these other elements.

01:04:20.260 And so we ended up making that COVID film I was never going to make.

01:04:24.160 So that's in post-production at the moment.

01:04:28.080 And now we're looking, you know, to make the next movie.

01:04:31.320 Well, this is also what's piqued my interest a bit in the vaccine issue is, well, it's the notion that one death is a tragedy and a million deaths is a statistic.

01:04:41.980 When I just hear about...

01:04:43.120 It was Stalin.

01:04:43.760 It was Stalin.

01:04:44.260 Stalin, yeah, yeah, a real public health expert, maybe that has resonances to our own time.

01:04:50.280 But they, when they say, well, look, yes, one in however many kids will have an adverse reaction.

01:04:56.360 I say, okay, well, those are just numbers.

01:04:58.180 And okay, that's fine.

01:04:59.560 It doesn't do anything.

01:05:01.020 It doesn't tug on my heartstrings.

01:05:02.300 But then when I started to hear from people who had relatives, who made persuasive arguments that they had been vaccine injured.

01:05:11.160 Now, well, hold on.

01:05:11.740 I know this person.

01:05:12.720 And I might even know the relative.

01:05:14.820 And maybe I've seen it.

01:05:16.220 Oh, well, that's actually a real person.

01:05:17.520 That's a real living, breathing person there.

01:05:19.140 And if they were materially harmed because of public policy, now I really care.

01:05:26.140 Now I've got a face to this bland, clinical kind of scientific jargon.

01:05:31.860 We've been talking about MMR specifically.

01:05:34.400 But I wonder about other vaccines.

01:05:36.380 Because when my wife gave birth to our first son, the doctors and nurses come into the room.

01:05:42.320 And they say, okay, we want to give your kid, who at this point is about three hours old, we want to give your kid a hepatitis vaccine.

01:05:49.660 And I say, excuse me?

01:05:52.140 Why do you want to give my kid a hepatitis vaccine?

01:05:54.380 He said, well, you know, just to be safe.

01:05:56.260 I said, last I checked, you get hepatitis from sharing needles on skid row and going to whorehouses.

01:06:03.040 I don't think my baby's gone to either of those in the past five hours.

01:06:07.720 They say, well, no, and they dance around it.

01:06:10.040 My wife really pressed the issue.

01:06:11.700 They said, well, it's, you know, in case maybe your husband has cheated on you.

01:06:16.560 I'm standing, you know, I'm here, guys.

01:06:19.240 I can assure you we're good, okay?

01:06:22.600 And I thought, this is offensive, personally.

01:06:27.460 And I know that we're fine.

01:06:30.800 Why are you pushing this vaccine?

01:06:33.420 I said, no, get out of the room.

01:06:35.180 I'm not doing that.

01:06:36.200 But it's not an isolated incident.

01:06:38.640 They push all of these vaccines.

01:06:40.340 And I presume in part it's because they've got a captive audience here.

01:06:44.120 They can stick the kid.

01:06:45.100 Most people are probably going to say yes, even if it's totally unnecessary, totally ridiculous.

01:06:49.500 So then I have to ask, beyond MMR, what is the risk for mother vaccines?

01:06:54.860 Well, I hear that again.

01:06:55.800 A great question.

01:06:56.720 Because, right, hepatitis B vaccination in infants as a policy, first 24 hours of life.

01:07:04.080 Firstly, there is no logic behind it, as you pointed out.

01:07:07.680 And it's offensive.

01:07:08.280 It's a vast, vast majority.

01:07:09.920 Mothers can be tested for hepatitis B exposure in advance.

01:07:13.480 And then, you know, maybe, you know, give them the, offered the vaccine.

01:07:17.220 But how long has that safety study been before it becomes policy, a hospital policy to put

01:07:25.720 it into every one-day-old child?

01:07:27.760 What would you want to know as a parent, fully informed consent, about the length of the safety

01:07:35.180 study and how it was done?

01:07:37.040 How long would you want that safety study to have been before you were willing to put it

01:07:41.200 into your child?

01:07:41.920 Do you have any thoughts on that?

01:07:43.580 I would like that safety study to have been conducted years and years ago.

01:07:48.840 I would like it to have been rigorous with a lot of people.

01:07:51.760 And I want to be, I frankly still probably wouldn't do it because that hepatitis vaccine

01:07:55.960 seems so useless at that age.

01:07:59.060 But I don't know, at least established for 10 years, five years?

01:08:04.540 10 years.

01:08:05.700 Five days.

01:08:08.640 Five days.

01:08:10.580 No placebo, no comparison vaccine.

01:08:13.940 What studies were done, were done in a small group of totally age-inappropriate people,

01:08:18.760 nothing to do with infants one day old.

01:08:21.840 Okay?

01:08:22.180 It was, you could not infer anything about safety from that other than the studies hadn't

01:08:27.920 been done.

01:08:28.420 Five days.

01:08:29.880 And yet it becomes hospital policy.

01:08:31.700 So what happened is that when the advisory committee on vaccination practices had their

01:08:37.820 meeting about it, they could not.

01:08:40.860 Merck came to them and said, we cannot get people to take this vaccine.

01:08:45.020 The prostitutes and the drug addicts are not compliant.

01:08:49.040 They're not coming forward.

01:08:49.900 Right.

01:08:50.460 Okay?

01:08:50.680 They're not doing it.

01:08:51.440 And so we have no market.

01:08:52.840 We put all this money into creating this.

01:08:54.680 We are not going, this is their quote, we are not going to be left with an orphan drug.

01:09:00.080 And so it was decided to avoid that, they would put it into one day old infants.

01:09:08.020 This is the thinking behind it.

01:09:09.300 So you have someone from the industry going to the advisory committee on vaccination practices

01:09:13.900 and essentially dictating what their market will be.

01:09:18.300 Five days.

01:09:19.820 Are you told that?

01:09:20.760 Is there fully informed consent?

01:09:22.300 Absolutely not.

01:09:23.460 Why?

01:09:23.860 Because the doctors don't know themselves.

01:09:26.660 No one has bothered to do the research.

01:09:30.080 And yet you're suddenly how someone to blame or, you know, you may have been cheating on you.

01:09:34.320 All that nonsense.

01:09:35.880 Please.

01:09:36.460 It's a contrivance.

01:09:37.540 Because I'm crotchety and contrarian.

01:09:40.280 So I, and even I said, do I have to trust the doctors?

01:09:43.400 I said, no, get out of the room.

01:09:45.000 It's ridiculous.

01:09:45.840 How many people just go along with it because the doctor said so.

01:09:49.100 Doctor knows best.

01:09:49.780 So in your estimation, if you have an opinion on it at all, not is it necessary or unnecessary,

01:09:57.400 but are there risks to someone getting the hepatitis vaccine or DTaP or any of these other slew of vaccines

01:10:04.200 that we're told to stick our kids with in the first two years of their life?

01:10:07.580 Comes with a hepatitis B vaccine.

01:10:09.160 So historically, it used to, for a very long time, contain a mercury preservative, thimerosal.

01:10:14.980 Mercury is highly dangerous.

01:10:17.800 One of the, I think, perhaps the second most dangerous thing that you can expose someone to on the planet.

01:10:24.260 And yet it was there in these vaccines for infants in highly toxic amounts,

01:10:30.480 way in excess of the EPA guidelines on exposure.

01:10:34.500 And the CDC were asked to do a study on this to see if thimerosal was associated causally with the vaccine.

01:10:41.060 And they held a private meeting at Simpsonwood where they revealed the results and tried and did cover it up.

01:10:49.120 This is a link between thimerosal and autism?

01:10:51.640 And autism.

01:10:52.280 And they found that if a child had been exposed on the first day of life to this thimerosal-containing vaccine,

01:11:01.340 then they had an excess risk of sevenfold of developing autism compared to getting it later.

01:11:06.440 And they removed that group.

01:11:13.420 Sorry, they removed the control group to show those who had no vaccine because there was a sevenfold increased risk over that group.

01:11:22.060 So they removed the control group and then published the paper completely concealing the fact that there was this dramatic increased risk.

01:11:28.980 How can you remove the control group?

01:11:30.180 Because they were in charge of the data.

01:11:33.460 And this only was subsequently discovered by persistent mothers, including people like Bobby Kennedy and others.

01:11:42.020 And now it's well known.

01:11:44.400 The Simpsonwood experience is sort of synonymous with pharmaceutical industry or CDC fraud.

01:11:51.200 And it was an absolute tragedy.

01:11:55.060 So they knew.

01:11:55.660 I mean, this is the point that I'm getting to is they knew all along.

01:12:00.320 As with the MMR study, here we have the thimerosal study.

01:12:04.500 That's how they behave.

01:12:05.400 I remember as a kid, I was watching an interview with Bobby Kennedy, actually.

01:12:09.620 And Kennedy was alleging a link between thimerosal and autism.

01:12:13.080 And then I remember shortly thereafter, and then subsequently up until the present time, the media said the link between thimerosal and autism has been debunked, disproven.

01:12:25.380 Only kooks think that it exists.

01:12:28.520 And there you are.

01:12:29.600 Those kooks were right.

01:12:31.160 When you go into the original data and find out what they did, the kooks were right.

01:12:35.460 The conspiracy theorists, once again, were right.

01:12:38.940 The media bought and paid for.

01:12:40.980 I think that was one of the lessons of COVID was not in every case, but very often the difference between conspiracy theory and the truth is about six to nine months.

01:12:53.460 In this case, maybe a few more years than that.

01:12:56.660 What about the other vaccines?

01:12:58.140 What about, I can't even name all of them.

01:13:00.620 Again, many of them contain thimerosal.

01:13:02.640 That's now been phased out.

01:13:04.760 So there was a tacit acknowledgement that there was a problem.

01:13:08.200 And it was recommended that the manufacturers took it out.

01:13:10.820 They knew, but they thought we don't want to cause a public health stir.

01:13:14.060 We don't want them to lose confidence in our policymaking.

01:13:16.980 So we'll just phase it out.

01:13:18.440 We'll recommend it.

01:13:19.920 We won't stop it overnight.

01:13:21.080 That would cause a scare.

01:13:22.320 But phasing it out seems to be a tacit acknowledgement that there was a reason to phase it out.

01:13:27.960 And there was.

01:13:28.580 And it was just a strategy for minimizing the downside for them, not protecting children, not avoiding exposure in children, protecting themselves.

01:13:38.640 So when I take my kids to a doctor's office, the vast majority of doctor's offices that we might sign up for, that we might join, insist upon a rigorous vaccine schedule, the CDC vaccine schedule.

01:13:53.840 And as I told you, I don't consider myself an anti-vaxxer.

01:13:57.960 But if I ask them, not to avoid vaccines entirely, but to say, hey, can we delay these a little bit?

01:14:04.320 Can we spread them out?

01:14:05.520 Can some of them that seem unnecessary, can we avoid?

01:14:08.060 But I'll do some vaccines.

01:14:10.780 And maybe I'll do all your vaccines.

01:14:11.980 But can we just spread them out just a little bit?

01:14:14.200 And say, go find another medical group.

01:14:16.220 Why are the medical groups going along with that?

01:14:19.200 Is it because I can't imagine they make that much money per shot.

01:14:21.900 Maybe they do.

01:14:22.840 Is it pressure from the pharmaceutical industry?

01:14:26.220 Is it pressure from the agencies?

01:14:28.040 Is it ignorance?

01:14:29.720 Is it ideology?

01:14:31.060 Is it fear of professional reprisal from the medical community?

01:14:33.780 What is it?

01:14:35.000 There was a doctor recently, a pediatrician, a couple of years ago, who testified before his state legislators on this very issue.

01:14:43.040 And he said, I decided not to vaccinate anymore, based on my experience of what I'd seen happening to children.

01:14:51.060 In doing that, he said, I lost $700,000 a year in bonuses from being on time with the vaccine schedule, having all of my children, my patients vaccinated.

01:15:04.780 I lost $700,000 a year.

01:15:08.360 And that really says it all.

01:15:09.980 Where did the money come from?

01:15:11.280 From the medical group?

01:15:12.220 From the pharmaceutical companies, it comes from the government.

01:15:15.240 I'm not precisely sure where it comes from, but it's a bonus paid to them for fulfilling their vaccine obligations, as they are seen by them.

01:15:24.760 So I think that has some part to play in it.

01:15:27.220 That's a lot of money.

01:15:27.960 It's a lot of money.

01:15:28.520 That's more a scratch than I was thinking of.

01:15:32.040 I mean, some believe.

01:15:32.980 But please don't get me wrong.

01:15:33.960 Some genuinely, in good faith, believe that they're doing the right thing.

01:15:42.160 Others?

01:15:43.660 But when money clouds the issue, it's very difficult to separate the two.

01:15:47.420 So you've got the medical groups, the different medical offices.

01:15:56.820 There's that issue.

01:15:57.860 Then the schools.

01:15:59.000 Obviously, the schools are run by the government most of the time, so they just follow along with whatever the schedule is.

01:16:04.900 It seems like this is just a political problem.

01:16:08.900 So what is your hope?

01:16:12.200 As Kennedy now, one of the great, most prominent vaccine skeptics of our age, ever, I guess, is the health secretary, do you think things are going to change?

01:16:23.820 Yes, I do.

01:16:24.240 I think he is a very, very smart guy.

01:16:29.440 And he comes, his family legacy is one of, I mean, let's be honest, it's not, you wouldn't, if you were an insurance home.

01:16:39.400 It speaks to his bravery.

01:16:41.760 Yeah.

01:16:42.500 To be able to stand up in the face of that family history and say, I am going to take a very unpopular view that threatens the commercial interests of many people.

01:16:52.700 But I believe morally that that is my obligation.

01:16:57.140 That is what I have to do because this is what I know.

01:17:00.560 And so he's very sincere, entirely genuine.

01:17:03.720 I'm a great fan and supporter.

01:17:06.580 And my hope is that scientists will be allowed to do their job without the constraints placed on them by their medical schools or the pharmaceutical industry or the government.

01:17:20.260 That they do their job.

01:17:21.380 When I was at the Royal Free Hospital, the dean came in one day, got all of the academics who do the research, all of the academics together in the lecture theater.

01:17:30.180 And he said, the government has just told us that there will be no further funding from them for medical research.

01:17:37.000 They've said that what you have to do is go out and form strategic liaisons with the pharmaceutical companies to have them fund your research.

01:17:45.280 OK, so suddenly, in one move, the pharmaceutical companies get to control exactly what science has done in all the medical schools in the United Kingdom.

01:17:59.540 But more importantly, they get to decide what research is not done.

01:18:02.840 They were not going to fund my research, that's for sure.

01:18:07.900 So when that happened, I realized that I had to get out.

01:18:13.760 I had to come to America because at least even though the argument is equally polarized in the United States, there is a system of benevolence here, of independent research funding, of tax-deductible benefits to give to charities that allows private research institutions to thrive.

01:18:34.200 And it's the only way it could get done, but not in England, where it's really monopolized in this way.

01:18:42.600 And I simply wasn't prepared to work for the pharmaceutical industry.

01:18:46.400 That's not what I did.

01:18:47.640 You know, from your description, it's so tightly controlled in the UK.

01:18:51.840 But what's interesting is that it's not tightly controlled by the government.

01:18:54.580 I think sometimes American conservatives, we just have this reflexive antipathy for the government and a reflexive adulation for the private industry and for the free market.

01:19:06.740 However, there's an older strain in conservatism.

01:19:09.800 I think Barry Goldwater made this argument in Conscience of a Conservative, which is what we dislike is monopolistic power anywhere.

01:19:18.080 So if it's the government threatening my way of life and my flourishing, that's really bad.

01:19:25.080 And if it's some cartel of private industry threatening my way of life and my flourishing, that's just as bad.

01:19:32.780 If my life is being damaged, then I don't really care who the one is that's damaging it.

01:19:37.740 I want to attack unjustly monopolistic power anywhere.

01:19:42.360 So then down to brass tacks, you have medical expertise, though Wikipedia would deny it now.

01:19:50.480 You have been on this issue for decades.

01:19:54.340 A parent comes to you, says, Andy, my doctor's office says I got to vaccinate my kids.

01:20:01.040 Should I give them all the vaccines?

01:20:03.820 Should I give them none of the vaccines?

01:20:06.180 Should I give them some of the vaccines?

01:20:08.240 If I should give them some of the vaccines, when should I give it to them?

01:20:10.980 Would you give advice to those parents?

01:20:14.000 No.

01:20:14.660 It is not my job to give advice about what vaccines they should and shouldn't have.

01:20:20.240 It's my job to direct them to the science that will help them come to a decision, and they should have fully informed consent.

01:20:27.500 What I do say is this, is that I don't give that advice.

01:20:31.560 But what I can say, in all honesty, if I were a new father today, having a baby, then I would not vaccinate them.

01:20:41.680 At all.

01:20:42.420 And that's my opinion, based upon what I know.

01:20:45.360 But you must go out and do your research and study this, because you must come to that conclusion and live with the outcome, whatever that may be, of your decision.

01:20:56.620 But you think that the benefit, just for you, you're now a young father, for you, if you're doing that cost-benefit, you would say the potential benefit doesn't outweigh the risk.

01:21:08.360 I've come to believe, not only in the changing nature of the trajectory of infectious disease, it's getting far less and less and less serious and far less lethal.

01:21:19.080 And so the cost-benefit equation has changed over time.

01:21:23.680 I'll give you an example.

01:21:25.040 When antibiotics came in less than 100 years ago, antibiotics were a miracle.

01:21:30.060 Yeah.

01:21:30.480 We were plagued with rheumatic fever and battlefield gangrene and syphilis, neurosyphilis, for which there was no treatment.

01:21:38.420 Patients were dying.

01:21:39.620 Antibiotics came along.

01:21:40.780 They were a miracle.

01:21:41.900 But the miracle changes.

01:21:43.080 It's a dynamic relationship between organism and antibiotic.

01:21:47.080 And the overuse and the misuse of antibiotics has led to the emergence of highly resistant, very dangerous strains of bacteria.

01:21:54.940 Right.

01:21:55.200 And now the British government calls that the post-antibiotic apocalypse.

01:21:59.180 Their words.

01:22:01.100 Theatrical word.

01:22:02.080 But they are their words.

01:22:03.700 And it is because we have a situation where the pharmaceutical company are now saying, guys, we're pulling out of antibiotic research because by the time we bring an expensive antibiotic to market, the bugs have already become resistant.

01:22:15.580 So it's a waste of time.

01:22:16.680 Yeah.

01:22:17.380 And that is a situation that man has created.

01:22:20.820 So the miracle, as it genuinely was for so many people, has now become this post-antibiotic apocalypse.

01:22:28.540 And we need to deal with that.

01:22:30.020 And we need to understand that nature will not be deceived.

01:22:34.300 Nature will not be deceived.

01:22:35.500 It will find a way.

01:22:36.560 And we need to respect nature to anticipate its moves and not to assume that we can outwit nature.

01:22:45.740 This is the whole basis of Jurassic Park.

01:22:48.300 You know, there's a wonderful theatrical example of how nature will come back to haunt you if you think you can interfere with it.

01:22:56.540 You think you can exploit and manipulate it.

01:22:58.900 You can't.

01:22:59.400 I can already see the headline now in the left-wing media, which is, Wakefield, not satisfied attacking vaccines, now attacks antibiotics.

01:23:07.720 But what you're describing is not that antibiotics are bad or were bad or didn't have any good.

01:23:15.240 But you're just observing how antibiotics have worked over time.

01:23:21.020 You're observing how medicine works over time.

01:23:24.520 And it's Hegelian almost.

01:23:27.720 There's a synthesis and an antithesis.

01:23:29.560 What has actually happened?

01:23:31.540 Let's not get emotionally involved in this.

01:23:34.060 Let's just ask the pragmatic question.

01:23:36.020 Yeah.

01:23:36.620 What has really happened?

01:23:37.860 And that's what's happened.

01:23:39.420 And it's not that they were a bad thing at all.

01:23:41.640 Right.

01:23:41.880 No, no, no.

01:23:42.440 They weren't.

01:23:43.560 But nature reacts.

01:23:45.240 Nature reacts.

01:23:46.160 Nature finds a way around the problem.

01:23:48.980 And there can be unintended consequences.

01:23:51.120 And there's no be-all, end-all solution that ends history.

01:23:54.320 So we looked at that curve, or that collapse for measles, long predating the introduction of the measles vaccine.

01:24:04.180 But then what about now?

01:24:05.120 We are where we are.

01:24:05.900 We did introduce the measles vaccine decades ago.

01:24:08.340 And as people become more skeptical, I think with good reason, post-COVID, of vaccines and of public health experts, will there be a huge upsurge in measles?

01:24:22.480 Should people be concerned about that?

01:24:23.640 Yes, they should.

01:24:25.280 Yes, they should.

01:24:25.980 For various reasons.

01:24:27.080 Is that strains of measles that are now evolving, just in the same way as antibiotic and bacteria, strains of declades, what are called declades of measles, a particular genetic variant of measles, has emerged in highly vaccinated populations, which is resistant to the immunity induced by the vaccine.

01:24:51.020 So we've created this kind of resistance now in viruses, just as we did in a different way, but similarly to bacteria.

01:24:59.700 So we've got the emergence of resistant strains.

01:25:03.540 What do we do about that?

01:25:04.640 Because we can't go on using the live attenuated vaccine that's now decades old.

01:25:10.060 So people are saying, oh, I know what we'll do.

01:25:12.440 We'll make an mRNA-based vaccine for measles and mumps and rubella and all these other things.

01:25:18.160 So that, from our experience with COVID, would be an utter catastrophe.

01:25:23.100 But that, if you and I are talking about it, they've already done it.

01:25:26.820 These vaccines have been generated.

01:25:30.100 Calling them vaccines is a misnomer.

01:25:33.100 These genetic modification tools are what they are now anticipated and will be their answer to increasing failure of the existing vaccine.

01:25:48.200 What they don't tell you in a lot of these measles cases, for example, is that in the year that we had the Disneyland outbreak,

01:25:54.620 there were something like 180 cases across America, that 43% of those cases were caused by the vaccine.

01:26:03.040 They sequenced the strains and found that 43% were vaccine-related measles cases and didn't tell us for four years.

01:26:11.400 Because that would have been a public relations nightmare.

01:26:13.840 So we do have a problem.

01:26:17.600 We have a real problem.

01:26:18.420 And berating people and belittling them in the media isn't going to help that problem.

01:26:24.320 It's not going to solve it.

01:26:25.740 There's an analogy there sometimes on a different medical issue, on the abortion issue.

01:26:30.440 The pro-abortion side will say that before Roe v. Wade, women were dying by the thousands from illegal abortions,

01:26:37.660 which is completely made up.

01:26:38.800 As the man who invented that statistic, Dr. Bernard Nathanson, formerly the head of NARAL, pro-abortion, then became pro-life,

01:26:45.020 if he admitted he just made it out of thin air.

01:26:47.780 But you can look.

01:26:49.000 You can look at the government records to see how many women died from illegal abortions the year before Roe v. Wade.

01:26:54.600 And the number's 39.

01:26:56.660 You can also see how many women died from legal abortions.

01:26:59.800 Number's 24.

01:27:01.500 Not 3,900, not 39,000.

01:27:03.480 It's 39 and 24.

01:27:04.880 Then you can look at the number of states where abortion was legal and illegal.

01:27:07.860 And you realize the likelihood of a woman dying from an illegal abortion in those years was almost exactly the same as a woman dying from a legal abortion.

01:27:16.920 So putting the abortion issue aside for a moment, it just totally undercuts the credibility of the polemicists and the partisans who are arguing for one side of the issue.

01:27:27.220 43% of those cases come from the measles vaccine.

01:27:31.060 That seems like a pretty important detail, doesn't it?

01:27:33.360 You'd think so.

01:27:34.560 And I think that's why it was left out.

01:27:35.980 And all I'm arguing for is the conduct of excellent science that answers the questions that vex the public most to be done with integrity and dispassionately to get the right answers to protect the children.

01:27:54.420 And in the meantime, we'll forever fully inform parental consent in vaccinations for their children.

01:28:02.660 Fully inform voluntary consent.

01:28:05.180 That is the basis, one of the tenets of clinical medicine.

01:28:09.660 But that doesn't happen here.

01:28:11.980 Be parents of force, coerced, frightened, all of those things, pressures brought to bear, that your child won't be allowed in school, we're going to throw them out of the practice.

01:28:21.140 This is unforgivable.

01:28:22.820 This isn't what medicine's meant to be.

01:28:25.460 Now, you mentioned the mRNA vaccines, which you point out aren't exactly even vaccines.

01:28:29.380 I'm going to confess a little bit more ignorance.

01:28:32.500 Even five years now after the outbreak of COVID, the advent in a popular way of the mRNA vaccines, I really don't fully understand the distinction between an mRNA vaccine and a regular old vaccine.

01:28:47.240 What is the difference?

01:28:51.000 Okay, now, as a filmmaker now, because I've been a filmmaker for the last 20 years.

01:28:54.700 The measles vaccine, for example, is made the same way it was made way back in the 60s.

01:29:00.500 So I'd say you have a culture of chick embryos, you know, eggs or other substrates, cell substrates, because the virus requires a cell to grow in.

01:29:12.540 And that's what it does.

01:29:14.500 And you make a live virus vaccine.

01:29:17.900 And it doesn't, when you put it into individuals who are susceptible to measles, this is the one.

01:29:22.620 Oh, that child's rash is much less than all those other rashes.

01:29:26.500 His fever didn't go up.

01:29:27.680 That's the one we'll select as the vaccine strain.

01:29:31.460 People call it weakening the virus.

01:29:33.280 You're not weakening it.

01:29:35.100 You're modifying its disease profile.

01:29:39.260 You might be doing something else in addition that you don't know about.

01:29:42.240 It just doesn't manifest in outward symptoms.

01:29:45.180 That's the live attenuated vaccine.

01:29:46.980 That's the one that's commonly available, universally available now in doctor's offices.

01:29:52.580 The mRNA vaccine is a genetically created vaccine where you take a sequence of the target agent, like COVID, the spike protein,

01:30:03.820 and you integrate that into a plasmid, a piece of circular DNA, and then you use that as the substitute.

01:30:14.880 Now, I'm not an expert on mRNA-based vaccines, but it's a very, very different approach.

01:30:19.760 This isn't live.

01:30:20.760 This is a very different thing.

01:30:21.880 But when you give it, the intention is that it then integrates into human cells and turns them into a factory for producing the viral protein.

01:30:33.140 Well, that's not a good idea because you're then causing, you're asking the body to turn on its own cells, which is the very basis of autoimmune disease.

01:30:42.500 So, it seems to me intuitive that you're wreaking havoc on people by encouraging the immune system to attack its host.

01:30:54.180 But it seems like all of the enthusiasm in the pharmaceutical industry is for these new mRNA vaccines.

01:31:00.620 In many of them, yes.

01:31:02.160 I think that I'd be interested to see where it's all going.

01:31:05.040 I think that many of the venture capital companies are now pulling back on vaccines, particularly of this, shots of this particular type,

01:31:17.540 because they've come with so many unknown hazards that are becoming known.

01:31:23.520 I think that, yeah, it was, like I said, I think it was the biggest mistake they made.

01:31:29.500 Because not only does it undermine credibility in what they're saying now, but everything they've said before.

01:31:36.700 Do you see under the new health regime, under Kennedy's leadership and President Trump's leadership, do you see a turn away from the mRNA vaccines in particular?

01:31:48.400 Yes, I do.

01:31:49.400 I think the inevitability is the science will get done and the right conclusions will be reached.

01:31:55.680 I think there'll be huge pressure, particularly from those pharmaceutical companies that have invested a lot into this thing.

01:32:03.520 You'll have people hired by the pharmaceutical industry to write stories saying how wonderful they are and how bad people like Bobby Kennedy are.

01:32:12.640 It's happening all the time now.

01:32:14.400 That's inevitable.

01:32:15.520 It's going to happen.

01:32:16.160 But you know what?

01:32:16.980 I've been in this 35 years and I'm not going away.

01:32:19.820 So I'll keep doing what I do and Bobby will keep doing what he does and we'll come to the right answer somehow.

01:32:28.440 Well, they've taken just about everything they can from you.

01:32:31.940 So as you say, they haven't killed you yet.

01:32:36.080 And a man who's had everything taken from him is one of the most dangerous men in the world.

01:32:42.560 Because you really only have an incentive to pursue your line of inquiry and to pursue the truth.

01:32:49.320 That's right.

01:32:49.820 And they haven't killed me.

01:32:50.460 I think part of it is because I'm a sort of useful person to have around.

01:32:53.620 They can always say, he's the guy.

01:32:55.160 He's the one who did it.

01:32:55.780 They blame him.

01:32:56.420 Yeah, he blamed him.

01:32:57.240 But if I'm gone, they can't blame him.

01:32:59.040 He's gone.

01:32:59.940 But if they can...

01:33:02.040 Anyway, putting all of this to one side, there is a much more important issue at stake.

01:33:08.980 And that is the well-being of the children of this country and the world.

01:33:13.060 And many of those have lost their voice or have no voice.

01:33:16.940 And it's up to those of us who care about these issues to speak for them.

01:33:23.220 It's amazing how speaking to you for an hour and a half or however long we've been here,

01:33:28.300 you don't seem like the guy in the Wikipedia page.

01:33:30.660 I don't know.

01:33:31.040 It's almost...

01:33:31.560 You don't seem like the guy that's been written about in the establishment media.

01:33:35.160 It's almost like you can't believe everything that's written in the newspapers.

01:33:38.580 Or is there maybe everything that comes out of the official sources of the government?

01:33:43.900 Andy, thank you so much for being here.

01:33:45.140 My pleasure.

01:33:45.780 Thanks so much.

The Michael Knowles Show - May 16, 2025

＂The Lights Went Out In Their Eyes＂ Michael & The Vaccine Dissident ｜ Dr. Andy Wakefield

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