Top Male Porn Star's Shocking Story Of Suicide and Hope ｜ Joshua Broome
Episode Stats
Length
2 hours and 1 minute
Words per Minute
177.77596
Summary
Joshua Broom is a former porn star who won the award for best male porn star. He tells his story of how he became a porn star, how he got into the industry, and how he was able to become one of the most famous porn stars in the world.
Transcript
00:00:00.000
You know, I did a thousand films over about a six-year period.
00:00:03.840
You had to have a current, like, full panel, like, STD and AIDS test.
00:00:08.780
You would look, is the test clear, great, and that's what I would know about the girl
00:00:13.660
until I walked into the room and had sex with her.
00:00:22.440
When I was a teenage boy, I thought there were certain jobs that were probably a lot of fun.
00:00:30.200
Being, I don't know, a competitive surfer, that seemed kind of cool.
00:00:33.700
And of course, every teenage boy thinks, man, what would it be like to be a porn star?
00:00:44.840
I probably didn't, you know, I'm not like the most muscular guy in the world.
00:00:49.840
And probably, I think, in retrospect, that's a good thing.
00:00:52.940
I am joined today, however, by someone who did become a porn star
00:00:56.740
and who became the top porn star in the world, won the award.
00:01:01.860
Whatever the award is for top porn star, he won it.
00:01:06.320
Turned out the job was not all teenage boys might think it would be cracked up to be.
00:01:12.940
So, I'm pleased to say, for all my sins, I'm not familiar with your work.
00:01:20.500
But I was talking to some people who are familiar with your work.
00:01:24.340
And you were not just a guy who did a porn movie or two.
00:01:37.600
So, one, how the hell do you get involved in that kind of a thing?
00:01:44.260
So, from a big picture standpoint, I got in the industry by thinking, you know,
00:01:50.800
okay, someone who is in the acting and modeling industry,
00:01:54.120
if I put myself in closer proximity to the industry that I wanted to be in,
00:01:58.900
It would make, you know, me getting jobs easier.
00:02:04.100
So, I was predominantly doing some runway along with some print and then commercials
00:02:10.760
I was an aspiring actor, not acting very much, but had a reel, had an agent,
00:02:24.200
Like, there was no reason to make the decision that I made because a lot of
00:02:27.920
people would say, you know, I needed money, I needed to do this,
00:02:31.340
or there was some kind of trauma, you know, that there was nothing pointing me to that
00:02:38.800
But to answer your question, I move out to Hollywood.
00:02:41.920
Like many other people, you're pursuing your dream, but you need to do something to
00:02:52.060
There were these beautiful girls and I go over to them and I thought, you know,
00:02:55.140
maybe I'll get their number or a good tip or whatever.
00:03:04.480
And I'm like, yes, you know, this is a great opportunity for me.
00:03:07.060
Maybe they're working on a project or maybe they know a casting director or
00:03:12.180
But they're like, no, no, we're talking about pornography.
00:03:14.900
And I was like, I never considered it, but I was very intrigued.
00:03:19.600
And being someone, you know, I didn't have a reason to say no.
00:03:27.060
And I meet with this agent and he was like, he asked me three questions.
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And I was like, well, I grew up, you know, pretty much just me and my mom.
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And I guess what I want to accomplish is to be famous.
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And then it actually is advantageous for you that you have this acting background
00:04:03.060
because the pornography industry is shifting from just making these, like,
00:04:08.000
one-off scenes where they're parodying movies and there are scripts and all the stuff.
00:04:12.840
So, if you have acting experience and you can bring that into that, it'll be great.
00:04:17.680
There'll be, you know, a great runway for you to have all the things that you said you wanted.
00:04:21.440
So, being someone who's naive and didn't really have a good foundation to say no,
00:04:29.160
I was like, well, how big of a deal could it be if I do one?
00:04:33.280
And that one, it, you know, for lack of better terms, you know, even it was like 2006, went viral.
00:04:46.400
And very quickly, I have an agent that I begged to represent me,
00:04:51.360
calling me saying that they can't represent me anymore because they don't want to be associated with my likeness.
00:04:59.580
So, you sign up with the porn agency, you do the scene, in order to help your mainstream acting career.
00:05:06.960
And then, as a result of that, you become so famous that your mainstream agent dumps you.
00:05:23.680
Why did he ask you that first question about your childhood?
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And how did you give him the answer that he was looking for?
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I mean, I think, you know, in retrospect, it was, how can I manipulate you?
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You know, so for me, saying, okay, I'm from a broken home.
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You probably are looking to prove something or looking to find something.
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And if I tell them something that's affirming, which is an innate desire that exists in each
00:05:59.240
and every person, like you want to be affirmed.
00:06:05.180
And those are good things, but if they're manipulated, they'll lead you down a path that
00:06:15.980
Because at the end of the day, when you lay your head down on a pillow, it doesn't matter
00:06:26.500
No one is, regardless of what you say, like if someone's addicted to pornography and, you
00:06:31.920
know, they believe the lie to be true is that, you know, it's, this will be fun.
00:06:39.480
If you believe that to be a real reality, like sure might, someone might say, I want
00:06:51.560
And what's really interesting about your story is often you will hear female porn stars.
00:07:05.820
And women are abused, it would seem, much more by the industry.
00:07:13.160
And you think, well, men, we can kind of divorce sex from our emotional life.
00:07:17.580
And oh, men, you know, we just get the fun part of everything.
00:07:28.260
Because if you operate in a way that's contradictory to the way that you were wired to operate,
00:07:36.600
the byproduct of that is there's going to be significant trauma mentally and emotionally.
00:07:42.740
And regardless of if you choose to suppress that and what that might look like in your
00:07:47.640
life practically, that's probably going to be different from person to person.
00:07:50.920
But you don't live that life and go and be healthy unless you deal with that.
00:08:03.160
And then my agent gets a, well, my agent calls me.
00:08:09.900
And then a few weeks later, something probably even worse for me, my mom calls me.
00:08:15.520
And she's like, well, your uncle said that someone at work told him that I had done a
00:08:26.600
And for me personally, like my mom had me when she was 16 and she made significant sacrifices
00:08:35.340
And when I started pursuing modeling and acting, that started at 13.
00:08:38.500
So getting comp cards, getting headshots, you know, like I didn't talk the way that I
00:08:45.380
It's like I was very, like I grew up in a really small town in South Carolina.
00:08:48.820
Like I couldn't, I said like, I made up words that my grandma would say, like mater and tater,
00:08:57.360
And so I did all these things that my mom really couldn't afford, but she made a way because
00:09:01.740
she wanted me to have a better life than she did.
00:09:04.000
And it was something that I was passionate about.
00:09:05.720
And she did everything that she could to provide for me.
00:09:09.160
And yet I found myself squandering those things.
00:09:12.520
The equity that we gained along the way, it just kind of blew up.
00:09:21.640
Is it a sort of, I'm never speaking to you again, or is it a, why are you doing this job?
00:09:26.420
So my mom, my mom, the even keel all the way, she's like Joshua Luke.
00:09:31.620
So growing up in the South, like Joshua, like, you know, you're okay, Joshua Luke, you know,
00:09:36.960
you better heighten your awareness, Joshua Luke Broom, you run, you know?
00:09:40.960
So she was just like Joshua Luke Broom, like, why would you do that?
00:09:45.100
It's like, I love you, but you are better than that.
00:09:48.660
And I think that's something that you have to wrestle with in your life.
00:09:52.260
You know, in some aspect, someone, you'll make a decision that leaves you at a crossroads
00:09:57.280
and someone in your life hopefully is going to say, here's a better way.
00:10:04.040
If you've compromised or you've done something that you shouldn't have done, that you messed up,
00:10:09.360
and now you're at a fork in the road and you're having this conversation with someone,
00:10:14.140
it's like, okay, this is what you should do, but it's going to require change.
00:10:18.860
It's going to require hard work, and it's so much easier to not do the hard work,
00:10:24.860
change directions, do whatever needs to be done to, you know, change the direction that you're going.
00:10:31.200
So I chose to, you know, push her away, even though she was saying, I love you.
00:10:40.360
You just squandered everything that you've worked for the last, you know, almost 10 years.
00:10:46.000
But you got one thing you wanted, which is you got fame.
00:10:54.600
So a personal trainer that works at, you know, LA Fitness probably makes $8 or $9 an hour,
00:11:04.400
So, like, you charge $700, $800 a person for personal training.
00:11:09.780
The organization gets that money, and they get an hourly rate.
00:11:14.580
But if you are, you know, if you start personal training on your own, and you're, like, paying
00:11:20.480
a gym, you know, a fee, and you can make money that way.
00:11:24.140
But my point is, some personal trainers will make $200,000, $300,000, $400,000 a year, and
00:11:33.740
If you are in demand, you can charge more, and how much you work is dependent on you.
00:11:39.360
It's just like that, just like the regular, like, acting or any other talent.
00:11:45.360
If you're good at your trade, and there's a demand, you can charge more money, and if
00:11:51.560
And that was my case, where I was, you know, I did 1,000 films over about a six-year period.
00:12:07.780
It just becomes something that was incredibly monotonous, you know, like, I would show up
00:12:13.480
to set and, you know, do what I was paid to do and go about my business.
00:12:21.860
So in the industry, there's, like, 30 to 40 guys that work all the time, and there's
00:12:31.400
I would say, even when I was in the industry, there was not, like, a superstar.
00:12:36.260
That was, like, days of old, because it's so saturated that people are, you know, neurologically,
00:12:42.660
you get that, you know, that dopamine hit to your synapse, and you're looking...
00:12:46.540
But you're always looking for new, and you're looking for more.
00:12:49.360
So the girls are, you know, constantly evolving, and the guys don't matter as much.
00:12:54.820
But for a director standpoint, so a director is, more often than not, there's a production
00:13:00.300
company that he has a deal with, and then director hires talent, puts together a film,
00:13:05.800
gets it edited, and hands it back to the production company.
00:13:09.080
So all the weight is on the director to get this film done.
00:13:13.220
So if you hire a guy that can't do the job, then there's no product.
00:13:18.500
So you just squandered $20,000, $30,000, because everyone else is getting paid no matter what,
00:13:23.640
because everyone else did their job, but the guy didn't.
00:13:25.620
So the guy is the only person at risk of not getting paid.
00:13:29.800
So what the directors would do, they will find, like, five to ten guys that they hire
00:13:35.880
on a consistent basis, and those will be the guys they hire every single time.
00:13:47.120
It's like, for me, in that industry, that was full of people who, you know, had significant
00:13:53.140
trauma, that had drug problems, you know, like, you name it.
00:13:57.700
I was just a normal guy that took my job seriously.
00:14:02.160
I did what I was supposed to do, and I didn't cause any problems.
00:14:05.520
So during this time, you're not addicted to drugs.
00:14:08.920
You're not falling into these vices that are traditionally associated with porn.
00:14:12.200
Yeah, so for me, it's interesting, because I'm someone who's incredibly extroverted, but
00:14:16.480
I found myself, because you're so exposed when you're doing them, it's like, the last
00:14:23.100
thing you want to do is be around people, really.
00:14:25.980
So I found myself, I wouldn't go to parties or anything like that unless I was being paid
00:14:38.880
So there's this steady stream of girls coming in.
00:14:41.760
What is the relationship like when the cameras are off between the guys and the girls in
00:14:48.720
Did you have any qualms about, these girls are obviously very damaged people?
00:14:58.840
Okay, we're going to go do our job now and, you know, see you next time.
00:15:01.440
Well, if you get rid of the introduction and the exit.
00:15:08.260
So, I mean, literally, so the way that a normal scene would work is the director is going to
00:15:13.800
shoot something called pretty girls, and it's just photos of the girl, and then you would
00:15:19.820
come in and you would take photos with the girl, and then you would leave, and then you
00:15:26.680
Like, there's, like, the only thing I knew about the girl is her legal name and the fact
00:15:31.320
that, you know, you had to have a current, like, full panel, like, STD and AIDS test.
00:15:41.640
So you would look, do the IDs, match the test, is the test clear, great, and that's what I
00:15:49.440
would know about the girl until I walked into the room and had sex with her.
00:15:52.500
And then, like, the guys were taking erectile dysfunction medication, the girls were using
00:15:59.320
It was so far from anything that was remotely intimate.
00:16:04.020
So was the byproduct of you being in proximity?
00:16:11.300
You know, like, there's no girl out there that's going to be okay.
00:16:14.360
And, I mean, in certain scenarios, sure, but there's no legitimate relationship happening
00:16:20.740
outside of someone who's spending time in that industry.
00:16:26.100
And this, for me, was really detrimental mentally.
00:16:34.220
We've been dating for, you know, a little over a year.
00:16:41.300
I'm friends with the other guys in the industry because we're around each other.
00:16:45.060
So now you're sitting at dinner with me and my girlfriend and him and his girlfriend.
00:16:54.560
And we're sitting there pretending that we're in a monotonous, you know, a monogamous relationship.
00:17:02.680
And the impact that has on you mentally and emotionally suppressing reality is so destructive.
00:17:11.780
And, Michael, to be honest, like, I mean, 30 people, I mean, we can touch on this a little
00:17:15.840
bit later, but 30 people that I knew, I knew their real names, I knew things about them,
00:17:23.820
30 people since I got out of the industry, I got out of the industry about 11 years ago
00:17:28.700
have taken their life, either suicide or overdose.
00:17:31.880
And it's because, more often than not, the girls, there's a common trajectory.
00:17:37.900
It's a girl gets in the industry, she becomes popular, and then the agent has the girl fill
00:17:48.020
And this no list is, you know, I'm not willing to do certain things.
00:17:55.980
Or, I mean, for girls, it's, like, anal, and it's crazy because, like, these identity
00:18:01.420
factors, you're placating aspects of people's identity, and you're making them genres of
00:18:10.180
Like, you know, it's like, for example, interracial porn is not interracial porn.
00:18:15.620
It's specifically any other race with a black man across the board.
00:18:21.560
Like, that's interracial porn, which is incredibly racist.
00:18:25.620
It doesn't, yeah, if it's a white guy and a black girl, it's not interracial, which is
00:18:34.240
I mean, yeah, all these niches become, you know, but I say that to say, so these girls
00:18:40.820
say, I don't want to do X, Y, and Z, and then they become popular, and their popularity
00:18:45.340
tapers off some, and their agent goes to different studios, and it's like, well, how much would
00:18:51.040
you pay for this girl to do this thing that she hasn't done yet?
00:18:56.060
Because there's this novelty to it because she hasn't done it.
00:18:59.300
Because people know that she says, this is on my no list.
00:19:05.620
Right, but what happens is the agent goes to the studio and auctions off this thing that
00:19:11.080
she doesn't want to do, and then the agent comes back to the girl and says, hey, I know
00:19:16.200
you haven't been working as much lately, but this studio just reached out to me, and if
00:19:21.420
you'd be willing to do this thing that's on your no list, they want to give you $50,000,
00:19:31.860
And then she does it, and then it becomes normalized, and then there's no allure to it anymore, and
00:19:39.440
And all those things on the list, she eventually does them.
00:19:42.140
And then, in addition to that, the agent, he also has an escorting agency, which is glamorized
00:19:49.360
prostitution, where he's essentially selling this girl, it's sex trafficking, he's selling
00:19:54.340
this girl on a site to regular people, and just because there's a check and that person's
00:20:00.160
getting an STD test, it's justifiable, and now she's doing that.
00:20:10.440
Like, anyone that becomes popular in any capacity, this is what happens.
00:20:16.840
And then the phone stops ringing as the popularity dissipates.
00:20:24.760
So feature dancing is at a strip club, you would, if someone would have some kind of name,
00:20:30.480
there would be some novelty around them, which would bring people in, and they'd pay them
00:20:38.500
That's, like, them, like, holding on for dear life.
00:20:45.140
And they've been told for five years, which is crazy, so girls start to age out of the
00:20:51.920
So, but these girls, they've been told for five years, this is who you are, you can't
00:20:58.360
do anything else, no one else is going to want you, you're going to have to continue
00:21:01.780
to compromise so that you can become relevant again.
00:21:05.840
Once all the compromise is gone, you're left with this scary thing, because if you believe
00:21:13.640
So this girl believes my worth is indicative of me selling myself for sex.
00:21:23.800
There's no organization that's ever going to want me to contribute to it, because I'm
00:21:28.820
I'm damaged goods, this stuff's always going to be on the internet, and they choose to
00:21:37.140
So 30 people that I was in the industry with, that's their story.
00:21:51.880
The number is far greater, and it's not just overdose and suicide.
00:21:55.280
It's people putting themselves in situations where, you know, it's really, it's not, I
00:22:02.300
hate to say it, it's interesting, but it's insane to think about how many girls end up
00:22:07.020
in relationships where the abuse is great enough where they're murdered.
00:22:10.880
Because you put yourself in situations that you would never put yourself in because you
00:22:16.160
It's like, I deserve this because I'm, you know, whatever.
00:22:22.980
And even like all of my roommates that I had when I was in the industry, dead.
00:22:27.920
But it's because they lived their life in such a way where they didn't care if they lived.
00:22:39.260
And what's so sad is when they release his obituary, it says his stage name and how many
00:22:46.180
porn movies he did and X, Y, and Z, and doesn't even talk about the man that he was.
00:22:53.600
If that's what you're known for, that's your epitaph.
00:22:57.360
One of the big criticisms of the porn industry that you hear, especially from feminists, is
00:23:02.200
that it's dominated by these male producers who are taking all the money and they're being
00:23:06.580
financially and professionally abusive of the women to say nothing of the physical abuse.
00:23:12.000
But then the pro-porn people will say, okay, then the porn performers can just go on to
00:23:19.080
OnlyFans or presumably there are copycat websites out there where the performer has control over
00:23:26.860
the production and they're keeping more of the money or whatever.
00:23:31.160
And this has exploded, even though I think the vast majority of the women on OnlyFans don't
00:23:40.840
So it's like, so what's happening across the board, especially any of the girls from
00:23:46.240
the porn industry or most of the girls that have any kind of notoriety, it's catfishing
00:23:55.180
So it's, you know, film, it's videos and photographs that were shot prior to.
00:24:00.460
And then you got, you know, Joe Blow sitting in a basement having a conversation with these
00:24:09.820
So you can, it seems like you're chatting with a person.
00:24:13.460
Every single time you message someone, you have to pay for that message.
00:24:18.600
Every time you get a video, you have to pay for that video.
00:24:23.420
So the subscription to that person might be a dollar or $20, but the money is made in
00:24:29.640
the DMs and on the DMs, you have to pay per message and you have to pay per video.
00:24:35.620
But the messaging and the pictures and the video, it's getting sent to you by a person
00:24:42.220
that's just pulling stock footage that already exists.
00:24:45.560
And you believe that you're having a conversation in real time with someone and you're paying
00:24:50.100
for every response and it's just someone sitting in a basement somewhere.
00:24:59.120
Oh man, that is so, that makes a thing that, it would be sad and degrading even if it were
00:25:06.720
Personally, they're doing, but it is so much worse.
00:25:11.440
But then, if you're the guy and you're not going to meet this girl, you're not going
00:25:18.480
to marry this girl, you're not going to, if your only interaction is just these videos
00:25:30.920
Does it matter that it's some fat guy in a basement rather than some cute porn lady?
00:25:34.780
Well, because your emotions are real and you're forming an emotional connection with this person.
00:25:42.120
And you're telling your brain, your mind, your heart, it's okay with me buying intimacy.
00:25:54.840
So I'm going to believe that's A, okay, and B, I'm probably going to distance myself from
00:26:03.520
any opportunity of engaging in reality because there's an opportunity for me to be rejected.
00:26:08.100
There's, you know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of risk involved.
00:26:13.820
And so, but what if this becomes my expectations and nothing can meet my expectations because
00:26:19.200
my expectations are built on something that's not real?
00:26:22.840
Because they used to have the old phone sex lines.
00:26:28.320
Yeah, but you believe, even then, you believe you're talking to this sexy girl.
00:26:35.560
If you're working the hotlines, you're not working in front of the camera.
00:26:40.680
You're not some smoking hot girl sitting there at two in the morning on your phone.
00:26:46.800
Like, all of that stuff is built on creating a reality that's fictitious.
00:26:55.800
And the opportunity cost that you point out, you can't be messaging this illusion of this
00:27:05.520
hot chick who's really probably a fat dude every night and simultaneously be pursuing
00:27:11.060
a healthy romantic relationship that might lead to marriage.
00:27:15.940
But you're also disconnecting yourself from reality.
00:27:19.340
Because what happens, like compromise in any area of your life will lead to compromise
00:27:28.760
It will impact, like, if I believe relationships are built on transaction, Michael, the moment
00:27:35.520
that you can't do something for me and you text me and you need to have a conversation
00:27:40.520
with me or you want me to help you move a couch, man, you haven't done anything for me
00:27:54.980
Well, I'm not going to value your relationship.
00:27:58.580
I'm not going to value, you know, a multitude of things because I'm disconnected from what's
00:28:12.660
So let's say there was one girl who made headlines because she sold her bath water and made like
00:28:19.940
I made a bazillion dollars with some stupid thing on OnlyFans.
00:28:25.320
The vast majority of these women are making nothing.
00:28:28.360
And you think of, again, talk about opportunity cost.
00:28:31.760
The moment that you put one picture of yourself up, the moment you present yourself as a porn
00:28:39.360
girl on the internet, that changes the trajectory of your life.
00:28:48.960
You can't compromise your dignity without a belief that knowing it's going to cost you
00:28:56.080
Like, if I was looking at porn in a library or wherever, you know, in a coffee shop, whatever,
00:29:02.820
wherever, even if I was looking at something on Instagram that was slightly inappropriate,
00:29:13.940
But there's a deep level of shame and there's just something about sexuality, there's something
00:29:21.380
about that that is ingrained in you so deeply that you can't deny it.
00:29:27.060
And when you start to deny the things that are true that you cannot run from, it's going
00:29:32.700
to cost you more than you would ever want to pay.
00:29:41.560
And I know it's a fallen world and there's lots of evil to go around, but this seems
00:29:48.100
Did you get a glimpse of what the top of the industry looks like?
00:29:52.620
Meaning, beyond the casting directors, beyond even the distributors or whatever, how conscious
00:30:08.240
Well, they're aware of how much money they're making.
00:30:10.800
So you have MindGeek, that's the organization out of Canada that owns...
00:30:15.400
They've monopolized the porn industry and they do that...
00:30:23.200
Like, if it's something that someone could recall, they own it.
00:30:28.980
And in addition to that, they own Traffic Junkie.
00:30:31.860
So Traffic Junkie is when you go to a porn site, it actually captures your information and
00:30:38.540
So when you are on Facebook and you've been watching porn earlier that day or that night
00:30:44.560
before and you see that inappropriate thing pop up on your Facebook feed that's an advertisement,
00:30:50.760
It's the very evidence that someone's been shelling your information.
00:30:54.480
So it's funny, because if fear of the just punishments of our Lord and God is not enough
00:31:02.520
to keep people from doing bad things, because people mess up and they do bad things all the
00:31:05.740
time, the unjust punishments of these website cookie trafficking companies, that might put
00:31:16.580
So the company, this type of company that exists, is owned by the porn distributor, the biggest porn
00:31:24.100
So Traffic Junkie is owned by MindGeek, which owns Pornhub and many other organizations.
00:31:28.700
But the scary thing is, so the porn industry just eclipsed $100 billion industry, $100 billion.
00:31:37.820
So if you take the NFL, Major League Baseball, and the NBA and put all the revenue together,
00:31:43.060
it still doesn't eclipse how much money porn makes.
00:31:46.160
If you take how many people visit Netflix, Amazon, and Twitter on a daily basis, it doesn't
00:31:51.940
eclipse how many people are watching porn on a daily basis.
00:31:55.020
It's in the neighborhood of 30% to 35% of all the data transferred on the internet on
00:32:03.500
But you're telling me that the people who run this extremely rich, powerful industry,
00:32:08.220
who see the data, maybe they don't meet the performers, but they at least...
00:32:13.180
They're completely detached from any human interaction.
00:32:16.940
Because the way that porn makes money, it's monetized through viewership, just the same
00:32:22.780
way, like YouTube's monetized, YouTube got that model from Pornhub.
00:32:28.020
Like all the major technological advancements that you see that are happening, they're taking
00:32:37.160
I had an academic buddy of mine once told me that porn sets a lot of the technological
00:32:45.440
Including when you're on YouTube and you skip ahead and a thumbnail pops up and it says,
00:32:51.260
My friend was telling me, this comes from porn because people want, you know, they have
00:32:56.020
short attention spans and so they want to jump ahead.
00:32:58.200
So I guess that people say that to give credit to the porn industry.
00:33:03.500
They say, look, they're moving the technology forward.
00:33:05.600
And even so, the way that, like, you know, the way that you become monetized and make
00:33:11.520
money off of YouTube or any other social media is you get to the point where there's enough
00:33:16.440
viewership where you can run ads on your media.
00:33:22.400
The thing that's so hard for me to believe, though, is just that these people at the top,
00:33:27.220
maybe it's easy to believe, that the people at the top, they're just so divorced, they're
00:33:34.420
If I were running an industry and one of my top workers came out and said, hey, 30 of
00:33:42.520
my friends killed themselves in the last decade because of this industry, like, it would be
00:33:47.660
hard for me running the industry not to notice that, right?
00:33:58.320
I won't use the name, but there was a girl that she didn't want to work with a specific
00:34:07.600
This performer had done, like, some, like, homosexual porn.
00:34:12.620
And she chose, like, I don't want to work with this person.
00:34:15.640
And then she was attacked on social media because she didn't want to work with this person.
00:34:23.580
And then, so now she's being attacked to the point where she ends up taking her own
00:34:34.880
And then, so what the industry does and has done, so this is their playbook, someone dies,
00:34:40.300
and then they make a best of film to honor her, but they monopolize off of this tragedy.
00:34:49.380
So not only do they see it, they make more money on it.
00:35:02.120
People are products and sex is transactional across the board.
00:35:07.720
And that's the danger for the consumer as well.
00:35:13.100
Well, the danger for the consumer, so if I am watching pornography, I'm forming this
00:35:18.920
relationship with a screen in my hand, and I'm detaching myself from reality.
00:35:25.100
I'm becoming disconnected from what intimacy actually is.
00:35:29.440
I'm re-ingraining this neurological pattern where I can be selfish.
00:35:39.880
It's about me, when I want it, and it just reintegrates this behavior in myself where
00:35:48.060
it's nothing like being in an actual relationship with a human being whatsoever.
00:35:53.400
Now, you as the performer, are you seeing this happen to you, that you're just not viewing
00:35:59.660
people as people, you're becoming dehumanized, or no?
00:36:04.160
I would say yes, but it first happens with you.
00:36:07.920
You detach yourself from reality because, number one, you're going by pseudonym.
00:36:12.680
So it's interesting that the first thing that the director promised me is, I can make your
00:36:17.820
name famous, but the first thing that happened was my name actually died.
00:36:22.720
Because if I can detach you from any kind of belief in there's some kind of moral aspect
00:36:32.060
of this that I should or shouldn't be doing, if I'm calling myself by another name, then
00:36:52.300
But you, whatever your performer name is, well, that guy just, he just got invented five
00:37:01.660
It's like, I'm a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude that doesn't even know what
00:37:08.080
It's that you, because you have a stage name, and everyone around you calls my stage name.
00:37:13.620
And that, for me, that became real in that I had people in my life saying, hey, I love
00:37:29.280
And then you hear that, and you're like, well, either I have to take into consideration what
00:37:37.300
And I pushed anyone that was speaking sensibly to me away, and I just surrounded myself with
00:37:44.500
a bunch of people who were patting me on my back on my way to hell.
00:37:49.200
So, how long into the industry before you start to think, I've pushed away all these people
00:38:04.060
Yeah, so for me, I think, like, to revisit a question you asked earlier, you said, can
00:38:11.840
For me, you know, someone who I grew up not having a father in my home yet, the father,
00:38:21.240
Grew up in a very small town in South Carolina, and the added dynamic was, I saw him.
00:38:26.400
I knew he was my father, but he was never a father in my home or in my life.
00:38:35.260
There was no, there was like a few attempts, and yeah, so there was a few attempts for him
00:38:41.500
to be part of my life in some capacity, but he ended up getting married, and then, you
00:38:46.620
know, you know, he was, they were both 16 at the time, and my mom chose to keep me, and
00:38:51.160
he chose to, you know, continue living his life.
00:38:54.320
And I would see him, and that made me feel, what's wrong with me?
00:39:00.120
Like, it was confusing at first, and then it made me angry, specifically because I saw
00:39:06.480
Like, he, like, he was married, and they had kids, and they had a nice home, and, you know,
00:39:11.940
they had all these things, and it was just me and my mom struggling.
00:39:16.800
Most people who grow up without a father, I mean, what do I know?
00:39:21.020
I just, I guess in my imagination of this, the father is on the other side of the world.
00:39:27.640
I imagine it's much, much harder if you see this guy, and you see his new family.
00:39:32.840
Yeah, I mean, there's definitely different aspects of fatherlessness, where it's like,
00:39:36.920
you know, someone in my case, or like, there's various, you know, traumas that come with levels
00:39:41.880
of fatherlessness, like divorce, or maybe a father that's in the home, but he's not present.
00:39:47.460
But there's, but yes, to your point, it was very frustrating that the thing that I felt like
00:39:52.320
I needed most, and the thing that I wanted most, was in arm's reach, but had no interest in me.
00:39:58.340
Were you aware of this at the time, or you were just angry, and you didn't know why?
00:40:02.160
Well, I was confused until I was angry, but I was always aware, you know, because he was there.
00:40:08.660
You know, so that caused, so me having a high achiever personality, it's like, well,
00:40:18.640
I can overcome my feeling of worthlessness, or my need to be valuable.
00:40:24.400
So through affirmation, it was, you know, first it was scholastics, then it was sports,
00:40:29.320
then it was getting the girl that no one else could get, then getting the most girls,
00:40:33.840
But being in that industry, that personality trait came with me, both me feeling inadequate
00:40:42.720
So being someone who is somewhat analytical, I love statistics, and it's like, okay,
00:40:49.220
Once I make a million dollars, then I'll be happy.
00:40:54.560
It's like, so I'm like tracking it like it's some kind of game.
00:41:01.560
And then the same thing, like in the industry, I got nominated for performer of the year.
00:41:11.120
And I thought like that was like the Mount Rushmore of porn because it was this big award
00:41:15.680
show, and then it was not only the actors and the actresses, but the organizations, the
00:41:25.760
And when I won, I thought that it would bring me this sense of relief, this feeling of lack,
00:41:33.160
I thought I would experience joy and fulfillment.
00:41:40.340
And that quickly amplified my anxiety, deepened my depression.
00:41:44.580
It took me to a place where decision after decision after decision led me to, okay, I'm
00:41:53.860
So at that point, you are truly the dog who catches the car.
00:42:03.600
There is no achievement to get in this line of work.
00:42:09.760
I never got into video games, except for a little period of time.
00:42:15.220
When I was like five years old, I played Donkey Kong.
00:42:17.380
And then when I was a teenager, I got a kick out of Grand Theft Auto.
00:42:21.880
It was so, you know, you just keep running people over and flying helicopters into buildings
00:42:27.900
And I remember, though, playing the video game in this aimless way.
00:42:35.340
Not on the missions, just aimlessly shooting people or whatever, robbing things.
00:42:39.400
And after a certain point, I realized this was pointless, and I'd just go kill myself in
00:42:49.780
And I've thought back on that at some point over the years.
00:42:52.680
And I think there's something profound in that intuition, that if you're aimless, and you're just doing
00:43:03.260
things for pleasure, and then you reach what would appear to be the maximum amount of pleasure,
00:43:13.140
But I think intellectually, I could see how someone could get to that place.
00:43:22.500
I literally got to a place where, so I, it's interesting.
00:43:26.840
So I just came from, I was doing a speaking engagement in Atlanta, and it was the first time
00:43:34.380
I've been back to Atlanta since the last time I left Atlanta.
00:43:37.320
The last time I left Atlanta was 11 years ago, and that's what I had done my last film.
00:43:47.700
And then I'm flying back to LAX, and in my head, I'm like making the decision, like,
00:43:53.560
okay, I'm going to take my life when I get home.
00:43:56.440
I get enough, I do some research and say how much, you know, these pain medications would
00:44:03.600
I get it, I line them up on the counter, I'm like, okay, I can't swallow this many pills
00:44:09.380
at once, but so this, and then I've got this check in my pocket, and it's just like, it's
00:44:16.060
It's this giant, like, cashier's check, and I just feel it in my pocket, and I'm wearing
00:44:20.240
slacks, and I just feel it against my skin, it's driving me crazy.
00:44:24.880
And then I take it out, and I start thinking, like, well, if I'm going to do this, you know,
00:44:29.720
I assume my bank account will go to my mom or my brother or something like that, so I'll
00:44:36.280
go deposit this check, and then I'll come back and take care of this, and I walk into
00:44:40.700
this bank, and normally, I would just go to the Dropbox or the ATM because on the memo
00:44:49.100
Like, it would have the title of the movie, which was always grotesque, and I was humiliated.
00:44:53.740
I didn't want to look someone in the eye and say, hey, here's the check for me selling
00:44:56.860
myself for seconds, I didn't want to do that, but today, on this day, I didn't care.
00:45:02.380
I was like, whatever, I don't care, and I went through the line, you know, sign the check,
00:45:06.760
slide the check across the counter, normal transaction, and I pivot to walk away, and
00:45:12.940
she kind of stops me, and she says, excuse me, Joshua, are you okay?
00:45:22.380
And what she didn't know is it had been over a year since I had heard my name.
00:45:31.000
I'd gotten rid of, like, I've unfriended anyone that followed me on social media that
00:45:35.780
was, like, from my actual life, my fraternity brothers, my friends from high school, my brother.
00:45:45.240
The only person that existed was my stage name, which everyone on set called me.
00:45:54.240
So the gym that I went to, the barbershop that I went to, like, everywhere that I went,
00:45:59.140
Joshua did not exist, but when she said my name, it stopped me in my tracks, and it wrecked
00:46:05.840
me because all of a sudden, I was faced with what was real because at that moment, I'd created
00:46:12.320
this plausible reality based on lies, guilt, and shame.
00:46:15.960
Up to and including if the stage name guy kills himself.
00:46:31.220
So for me, like, what I felt immediately was guilt and regret from not letting my mom know
00:46:40.080
Like, that was the last few text messages that she sent me.
00:46:42.240
She's like, you know, dang it, just tell me if you're okay or not.
00:46:47.080
Like, if you're not going to come home, if you're going to stay doing whatever you're
00:46:49.840
doing, whatever, I just want to know if you're okay.
00:46:52.820
And I was so selfish and so caught up in my shame and my pride that I couldn't even pick
00:47:00.740
up the phone or send a text to let my mom know that I was alive.
00:47:03.760
And in that moment, when I heard my name that my mom had given me, my reality was challenged
00:47:19.220
And then my mom said what she had been saying for, you know, I'd been in LA for eight, nine
00:47:43.620
I even like found someone to sublease my place.
00:47:48.920
You can literally have everything in my home, like all my furniture, everything.
00:48:03.700
On the one hand, you're behaving in this extremely selfish way.
00:48:07.800
On the other hand, you've completely neglected yourself and denied the existence of yourself.
00:48:15.560
I say it's a paradox because I don't think it's exactly a contradiction or an impossibility.
00:48:21.800
In fact, very often, that would appear to be how these things go.
00:48:25.600
Killing yourself is both extremely selfish and a complete rejection of the self.
00:48:33.620
It's an interesting thing to struggle with because on the outside, aesthetically, I was taking very good care of myself, but I was dying inside.
00:48:42.160
And I think that's why it's so much easier to put on a mask and pretend.
00:48:46.320
And, you know, for me, I just wanted the person in front of me to like me or to do the thing to get the affirmation.
00:48:54.340
But I was disillusioned and disconnected from reality.
00:48:57.240
The power of the name is so striking because we think, oh, who cares about a name?
00:49:08.600
I call this a glass, but I could call this a parakeet.
00:49:19.400
The first charge given to Adam in the Garden of Eden is name everything.
00:49:23.820
All the way up to modern day, this big political fight that everybody seems to be in right now over transgenderism is basically a fight over names and the relationship between names and reality.
00:49:35.220
If you call me Johnny or you call me Mary Sue, if you call me Rachel Maddow, I'll probably laugh.
00:49:43.180
But if you say that to someone who is in the transgender movement, that person will lose it.
00:49:51.240
If you mispronoun or misgender, meaning use the correct pronouns for somebody, this is the worst crime you can possibly commit against them because they know the power of a name.
00:50:00.380
I mean, even the transgender transition is a kind of ritual suicide, right?
00:50:06.380
Where you say, okay, my old self, that's my dead name.
00:50:13.060
It's hard not to see a parallel to what you're describing in the industry.
00:50:18.560
And I think in a deeper way, in any aspect, it's like it's an identity crisis.
00:50:24.740
If my identity is rooted in a belief around a feeling or a behavior and I identify myself based on that, I'm going to constantly be in this identity crisis because there's actually an author of life that's given me an identity that I don't get to choose who or what I am.
00:50:45.080
But I can feel a certain way, but my feelings can't define me because I've already been defined by an author.
00:50:55.320
I was talking to an exorcist on this show, actually, and we were talking about selling your soul to the devil.
00:51:04.400
And he said, well, you know, you can't actually do that.
00:51:14.860
The devil tricks you and makes you think you can sell it.
00:51:24.420
You didn't choose how you came into this world.
00:51:26.540
You damn well sure shouldn't choose how you go out of the world.
00:51:32.260
And so this bank teller, providentially, calls out, says your name.
00:51:39.220
You call your actual mother, not your invented personas.
00:51:47.040
And then I spend two years just doing everything I can to cover up what I'd done.
00:51:53.360
I literally had tattoos, cover them up with new tattoos, shaved my head, deleted my social
00:51:59.420
media, did everything that I could to hide what I'd done.
00:52:05.940
Like I'm running, I'm hiding, I don't want to be found.
00:52:19.200
And again, the personality trait is still there.
00:52:23.940
Like regardless of what I'm doing, if I'm eating wings, I'm going to eat the most or the
00:52:32.280
So it's like, okay, if I'm going to be a personal trainer, I'm going to be the best dang personal
00:52:37.800
And I quickly worked my way up in this gym and, you know, worked my way into management
00:52:44.860
But at night, I'm not doing okay because the reality of what's on the internet and people
00:52:51.140
recognizing me and me just wanting to be a regular person was nearly impossible.
00:53:05.440
I'm not very plugged into pop culture, but internet-y.
00:53:10.560
And one of my producers, I will not say which one, embarrass this producer, said, are you
00:53:28.100
And it's you, it's you in a bathtub and someone comes in and says, hey, you're at the beach
00:53:39.460
So, so there, there was this meme and it's been shared probably, I think it's been shared
00:53:52.500
But there's this scene where, this goes to the ridiculous of the writing that happens
00:53:59.620
But I'm in a bathtub and then a lifeguard runs in and she's like, get out.
00:54:08.940
And I was like, what are you talking about, lady?
00:54:13.220
It's not a, you know, this is a, this is not a beach.
00:54:20.980
And, but with a, with like, like straight face, you know?
00:54:26.980
It's a very funny bit in that it's, maybe, maybe a lot of porn is like this, but that
00:54:32.520
strikes me as it's so self-aware about what it is.
00:54:39.360
I mean, she, like, she ran in with like the little like lifeguard thing and she's wearing
00:54:45.560
You know, she's got the red bathing suit on, you know, and she comes in, I'm just sitting
00:54:55.200
So if this went viral during the years of Vine, were you out of the industry at this point
00:55:08.440
And then it went, then people started like remaking it on YouTube and then it got popular on TikTok
00:55:14.740
And then I found out about TikTok and I was like, and I, so through finding out like how
00:55:21.120
like popular TikTok was being, I took, I took a peek at TikTok and I'm like, oh, this
00:55:31.100
TikTok is just crack because there's no home screen.
00:55:35.120
And then, but then I, then I talked with someone and it was like, well, there's, um, there's
00:55:41.960
And then there's a page where just the people you follow.
00:55:45.240
So I was like, anyway, they're like, well, you know, they're showing me data.
00:55:50.620
It's like how many, you know, this is the most downloaded app, you know, in this age demographic
00:55:58.400
You know, my objective is to reach people with the gospel.
00:56:02.440
So how could, how could I leverage this for that?
00:56:06.600
I'm like, let's, let's, let's think about this.
00:56:08.940
And then I started doing some research and then someone sent me like, Hey, have you seen
00:56:16.680
And I was like, I have no idea, you know, because it became popular like after I was out of the
00:56:23.820
And I, I did some research and I was like, man, like a hundred million views, like a hundred
00:56:30.620
And it's like, as far as like popularity of memes, it was like top 20 of like, you know,
00:56:35.180
it was when one, at one point it was like one of the most popular memes that existed.
00:56:39.940
And, um, I was like, this is, this is ridiculous.
00:56:42.560
And then I made a tech talk around it and it was like, but it was like, uh, who I, who
00:56:51.580
And it was, and it was just, and it was just like a back and forth of like, it was that picture
00:56:55.520
and then like me getting baptized and then like that, a picture of me in the industry and
00:57:00.680
then me getting married and a, and a picture of me in the industry.
00:57:04.080
Um, and then, you know, me like the, you know, or family.
00:57:09.580
And then, you know, it, it reached, you know, so, so I've been sharing like, not just with
00:57:17.240
And, uh, so just, I, I shared something along that lines, um, on Instagram, uh, at a month
00:57:23.560
ago and it reached 7 million people, but the organization that we put together.
00:57:31.440
So we, we've got an ecosystem where there's, you know, using AI, uh, there, there's, there's
00:57:37.040
key words that if you type, you'll get a message and that message routes you to an opportunity
00:57:43.340
to, you know, like biblical literacy or like talk to a person.
00:57:47.260
Or if you're struggling with pornography, there's, there's a website that we've created
00:57:51.340
that there's a 10 steps of how to be free from it.
00:57:54.380
And so it took that, it's great to reach millions of people, but we took that and, and, and
00:58:00.120
create a systemized way of connecting people, all those people to the next step, whether
00:58:06.620
it be like freedom from pornography or hearing the gospel or being connected to a church or
00:58:20.660
And so every now and again, someone will come up and say, Hey buddy, you know, loved your
00:58:27.140
Or it's some lib who wants to throw an egg at me, but it's, it's always, people are open
00:58:35.260
But with porn, people don't want to admit that they're watching it.
00:58:39.500
So do they come up to you and, or when I was in the industry unapologetically, but what
00:58:44.580
I guess, I think you have to factor in the fact that like I was in Hollywood, I was living
00:58:59.740
Unapologetically, people would come up and ask for autographs or to take pictures with
00:59:06.940
It wasn't just, you know, someone across the room, like, looks away.
00:59:10.280
Well, that happens more often now than, not, not a ton, but like.
00:59:16.760
But so you're, you are being recognized regularly, even now that you're back in your old town
00:59:22.760
Well, because from the outside looking in, like I'm months removed from being the most
00:59:29.180
So in, in just the way that content comes out, you know, it's, it's not, it doesn't
00:59:36.200
I mean, there's stuff steadily coming out a year after I'm, I'm out of the industry.
00:59:39.800
So people are like, what are you, aren't you that guy?
00:59:46.080
Like, what are you, what are you doing in this?
00:59:50.380
Um, so it, it happened so often I would just lie until I got found out and then I
00:59:58.000
So I was one Google search away from, you know, everyone knowing everything I didn't
01:00:04.280
Did they connect your real name with your stage name?
01:00:07.800
Well, it was like on, on IMDB it was, it was connected.
01:00:11.580
Um, so it, and like, unfortunately, like all the things that I had done that I was proud
01:00:23.100
Um, but yeah, so people would find, you know, I would, I would lie until I got found out and
01:00:30.420
Um, hurt a lot of people, um, almost got fired from different things.
01:00:35.580
Um, people didn't want me to personal train them.
01:00:42.960
It was like, okay, I'm, I'm this trainer that's operating at a high capacity.
01:00:49.360
Um, so there's this stuff about them, but you know, whatever.
01:00:56.060
And then there's this girl that starts coming to the gym, super gorgeous.
01:01:00.360
And I asked her out on a date and she says, no, which I was like, what the heck?
01:01:12.180
And, um, but then she's like, well, uh, we, we can go on a run if you want.
01:01:17.920
And I'm like, all right, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll run with you.
01:01:21.640
You know, I don't really love like doing long runs as you want to run like a 5k.
01:01:26.460
And I'm like, but for you, yes, a hundred percent.
01:01:29.960
And I go there to meet her and I'm waiting on her to get there.
01:01:33.700
And I almost feel like my mom's voice in my head saying, don't you dare lie to her.
01:01:42.980
Because I'd hurt girl after girl after girl after girl after girl.
01:01:46.780
Well, just I would, I would, I would not tell them about my past.
01:01:51.900
Um, and it was, you know, sometimes, you know, withholding the truth is just as painful as
01:01:58.320
Um, so, but for her, I'm waiting and like, I'm feeling like, don't you lie to her.
01:02:04.560
And she gets there and we, we never made it to a run.
01:02:18.780
And then I was just like, tell the whole truth, you know, just like man up, tell the
01:02:24.980
And then like, you know, like blacked out like five minutes, just like, you know, did
01:02:29.680
And, you know, when I was, you know, just literally any bad thing that I could recall, just like
01:02:37.440
And then after a moment of obviously processing this insanity.
01:02:42.420
Ends with like, I stole a chocolate bar when I was eight years old.
01:02:45.640
I was like, I kicked my brother in the shin and I said it was someone else.
01:02:48.780
But she looks at me and she says, well, here's the deal.
01:02:53.280
The worst thing you've ever done doesn't define you.
01:02:57.720
And the greatest thing you'll ever do, that doesn't define you either.
01:03:08.040
And for me, I was used to putting on, I call it the first date mask.
01:03:12.480
I don't know who I am, but I'm going to become whoever you want me to be.
01:03:16.880
So I started regurgitating whatever I knew, like cosmological argument, like, yes, like
01:03:22.360
And she asked me deeper questions that were simplistic, but very foreign to me.
01:03:30.080
You know, are you plugged into a community anywhere?
01:03:35.500
And I was like, whatever you're talking about, I don't think I got that.
01:03:42.040
And she said, well, I've been a Christian since I was in seventh grade.
01:03:48.180
I'm not perfect by any means, but my relationship with Jesus is the foundation in which I live
01:03:58.760
I just told you the truth and you didn't reject me?
01:04:01.360
I've been lying to people my whole life because I thought if anyone knew anything about me,
01:04:06.560
the person that his own father rejected, why would you want to know integral details about
01:04:15.580
And she was like, yeah, well, you know, what are some of your hopes, dreams?
01:04:26.520
And then the next weekend, so this was actually Easter, eight years ago.
01:04:39.000
You know, sometimes symbolism's a little on the nose.
01:04:43.500
And then the next week, she invites me to church.
01:04:47.740
And I go and I'm sitting in this church and when I walk in, there's this wooden signage
01:05:00.600
We want to love people where they are and encourage them to grow in their relationship with Jesus
01:05:06.420
I was like, sounds good, but if you knew anything about me, no way.
01:05:13.140
And then this pastor gets up and it's this guy that reminds me of my grandfather.
01:05:19.220
And for me, the little bit of church that I experienced was very Southern Baptist, but not in no way good,
01:05:30.600
where all I remembered was if you had a wrinkle in your shirt or a tattoo on your arm, you're going to hell.
01:05:35.280
Yeah, that is the unforgivable sin, the wrinkle in your shirt.
01:05:39.980
And yet this guy gets up here and he's dressed somewhat casually.
01:05:45.740
And then he starts talking about this dynamic between Jonathan and David.
01:05:49.820
And when David died, he's talking about how historically the previous kingdom was completely wiped out
01:05:56.440
because they didn't want the previous kingdom to think they had any access to the new kingdom.
01:06:02.820
He actually asked, hey, is there anyone left out of Jonathan's lineage and Mephibosheth was still alive.
01:06:08.300
And Mephibosheth knew history, so he was expecting death.
01:06:13.380
And instead, David brought him into his kingdom and restored his land.
01:06:18.720
And then he keeps talking and talks about, well, Romans 3.23 says that we've all sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
01:06:27.780
And then Romans 6.23 says the wage of sin is death.
01:06:32.380
So each and every person, because of their sin, they're separated from a holy and perfect God.
01:06:37.040
There's a bridge that you need to get to God that you don't have access to because you're imperfect.
01:06:42.120
And he goes on to talk about how Jesus, fully God and fully man, came into this world and lived a life that we could never live.
01:06:49.900
Died on the cross, paid for all sin for all time.
01:06:52.040
And it's through faith in him that changes everything.
01:06:57.020
And for me, what it did was it contended with how I saw myself and how I saw God.
01:07:05.660
Because I was like, there's no way that I could have access to God because I'm not good.
01:07:16.560
Catholics have sacramental confession where we go in and we confess our sins to Christ and the priest is acting in persona Christi.
01:07:31.660
But what's amazing is even understanding all of that, even understanding that we all sin and fall short of the glory of God,
01:07:38.560
even growing in sanctity, even growing in virtue, which can and does happen.
01:07:44.920
When you're standing in line to confess your sins, it's that same feeling you're describing.
01:07:49.380
Like, well, no, that thing that I did, that's a bridge too far.
01:07:53.700
And then you go and you confess your sins and the priest says, okay, you know,
01:07:57.880
You know, okay, say three Hail Marys, get out of here, see you in a couple of weeks.
01:08:01.600
And you can know it intellectually, but you can still, you still feel that somehow.
01:08:08.800
There's no, oh, that thing that I did, there's no way.
01:08:11.720
So for me in that moment, I surrendered and submitted to the fact that I could not fix myself.
01:08:21.120
And there was a God that loved me so much that he sent his son into this world to suffer and die so that he could bridge the gap that I could never bridge.
01:08:31.640
For me, I surrendered my life and I let go of the burden that I'd been carrying.
01:08:37.620
And the relationship with the father that I always desired, I realized I had through Christ.
01:08:53.320
And so number one, this girl, her name's Hope, and she's been, you know, her name's Hope, and she's been my wife for seven years.
01:09:09.180
So I hear this, and then I go into this church, and I'm like, hey, can I share this with someone?
01:09:15.180
So I sit down with a pastor, and I share with him my story, and then he connects me to another pastor.
01:09:20.480
And this pastor, he's like, okay, I want to get a Bible in your hand.
01:09:25.740
Here's, you know, just a little bit of observation, interpretation, application.
01:09:29.180
Like, here's how you read the Bible in proper context.
01:09:37.780
And I'm like giving away, you know, personal training clients, and I'm spending 15 to 20 hours a week with this man at this church, and he's discipling me.
01:09:45.600
And I just fall in love with the Bible to the point where I end up going to Bible college.
01:09:49.760
I go to Liberty and, you know, study Christian ministries and focus on biblical theology.
01:09:53.640
And in the process, I start sharing my testimony.
01:09:58.080
And I feel like, okay, in the early stages, I'm not preaching.
01:10:04.340
But as I'm up there, it's like I felt this need to perform.
01:10:09.900
You know, it's like for me, like I was a theater guy before I was, you know, the porn guy.
01:10:13.620
And it was like for me, you know, I needed to emote emotion.
01:10:19.520
You know, I wanted to create this experience for someone based on what I was, you know, portraying.
01:10:27.820
You know, I took my story and made it, you know, something that I wanted to present.
01:10:32.680
And I get up there and I just feel this anxiety.
01:10:38.880
And for me, you don't live the life that I've lived.
01:10:43.020
Yeah, you're pretty comfortable in your own life.
01:10:46.800
I mean, just like there's nothing that I'm ever going to do where I'm like, you know, there's cameras, there's lights, there's a stage, there's X amount of people, whatever.
01:10:53.160
But for me, it's like I love those situations, actually.
01:11:02.880
And I felt this like, man, I've got to do a good job.
01:11:06.160
I've got to do a good job so that I will be liked.
01:11:09.860
And I'd reverted back to that mindset where, like, I had to prove myself.
01:11:13.460
I was still the kid that his father didn't want because sometimes you'll carry, you know, this, I forget the surgery, but that there's, you know, if you have this cataract and you have it removed, if you have it for a long time, even if it's removed and you completely see through the lens that your mind can trick you into believing that it's still, your vision is still cloudy, even though it's not.
01:11:41.200
So I'd been walking with this emotional limp for so long that even though I had been freed from it, I'd practiced walking with it so much.
01:11:52.900
And I step up to the, I stepped from the stage.
01:11:58.620
But when I stepped onto the podium, I just felt this like overwhelming sense where not audibly, but like I heard in my mind, in my spirit, I love you.
01:12:18.080
And I essentially, I took what I wrote, I turned it over and I spent five minutes sharing my testimony.
01:12:25.480
And I spent the rest of the time trying my best to walk people through what Romans have to say, what the book of Romans has to say about salvation.
01:12:33.460
You know, this is why in the traditional liturgy, it's chanted.
01:12:39.940
One of the reasons for the chant, people think it's to be really theatrical, smells and bells, you know, the traditional Latin mess.
01:12:49.460
Because when the gospel is chanted, the preacher takes his personality out of it.
01:12:57.400
He's pronouncing it in this way that is quite beautiful.
01:13:01.180
But it's without the, you know, and here's the moment when I'm going to really put a lot of gusto into it.
01:13:06.380
I had a priest in New York, a very good friend of mine, who said that some of these priests and preachers who make it a big show and a performance, they tell jokes like ham actors in a dying vaudeville play.
01:13:19.880
And what they ought to do is limit their repertoire to the jokes that St. John told the Blessed Mother while her son bled on the cross.
01:13:30.420
You're talking about the son of God, God himself, the second person of the Trinity, comes down, takes on flesh, dwells among us, suffers in his passion, is crucified to redeem mankind.
01:13:44.880
It's not there for you to go do a soft shoe and shuffle off to Buffalo.
01:13:49.540
And you feel this ease the moment that you actually get up there.
01:13:53.320
You say, oh, I don't need to, I can take the tap shoes off.
01:13:56.640
I mean, I think there's much to be taken from and learned from Catholicism in regards to Protestant, like, practice, where, like, the liturgy is beautiful and the history, like, history, like, church history is beautiful.
01:14:08.580
And I think removing yourself from that takes away from what it actually is.
01:14:14.040
Well, I love that just even your experience of it, I'm glad that it didn't affect your testimony, ultimately.
01:14:20.440
But even that feeling of your muscle memory, you know, in modernity, we think of virtue and vice as just, oh, I did this thing, but it doesn't matter.
01:14:32.280
So, okay, I look at porn every single night, and I go further and further into these kinds of fantasies, but that's not going to affect my real life.
01:14:47.940
Yeah, well, just neurologically, the data says much different.
01:14:52.040
You know, it's like, I love, there's a lot of data around just, like, your brain, your heart, and the way that you interact in the world.
01:15:00.560
And so, like, for example, a few days ago on social media, I just posted, like, a 60-second clip of me saying, is masturbation sin?
01:15:10.340
Yes, and here's what masturbation is, and here's what 1 Corinthians says about love.
01:15:17.040
Compare and contrast the two and tell me where it lines up, you know?
01:15:21.080
And it goes viral because, you know, some people are agreeing, but most people are disagreeing.
01:15:25.520
And what happens is, is when you're confronted with conviction, you don't like that, you know?
01:15:33.840
And I think as someone who's a believer, there's a distinct difference between condemnation and conviction.
01:15:44.320
Romans 8, 1 says, therefore, there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
01:15:48.260
So wrestling with those two things, but I don't have to necessarily surrender to my conviction.
01:15:54.540
And if I separate myself from that conviction because I'm disconnected neurologically because I've done this thing enough where I've justified it, now it's not that big of a deal.
01:16:07.720
Because does anybody seriously believe it's not a sin?
01:16:11.720
I know plenty of people are going to say, oh, it's not a sin, it's fine, it's healthy.
01:16:16.380
I don't know, you've got the New York Health Department saying it's good for you to, you know, do what Woody Allen euphemistically called sex with someone you love.
01:16:22.960
But does it, nobody, Norm MacDonald had a whole bit on this.
01:16:28.060
Where he was doing a show, I think in San Francisco.
01:16:30.560
And Norm gets up and goes, yeah, sex is a filthy, shameful, disgusting thing that's obviously only meant for procreation.
01:16:37.040
He goes, oh, no, you know how, like, you're going to have a one-night stand or you're going to do it.
01:16:43.740
This is not the kind of thing you're doing for everybody to see.
01:16:46.020
So just any, or people just are kidding themselves, right?
01:16:49.260
I mean, it's just the reality that you're forming a relationship with a screen in your hand.
01:16:55.440
So not only is it, it integrates selfishness, it dissipates your ability to execute self-control, you're becoming a poor lover.
01:17:07.340
Like, you're training yourself to finish quickly.
01:17:11.260
Like, it's contradictory to anything that is applicable to love or being a good spouse.
01:17:18.960
There's no positive thing about it unless you're saying, well, I just want to give in to my desires, give in to my flesh.
01:17:27.320
Well, Romans 12.1 says that we're a living sacrifice.
01:17:30.600
And we're to be, and then Romans 12.2 goes on to talk about we're not to be conformed by the world, but rather we're to be transformed by renewing of our mind.
01:17:38.440
We're to go through this metamorphosis so that we can know what the perfect will of God is, so we can appear in contrast.
01:17:46.540
So if I can't understand what is reality and what is me giving into my flesh, if that becomes blurry, then sure, I'm going to try to justify it.
01:17:58.040
Well, that's the traditional understanding of two wills, right?
01:18:02.540
You know, the things I want to do, I don't do, and things I don't want to do.
01:18:05.820
So the rational will is supposed to mediate between the perfect will of God and your fleshy, bodily, appetitive will.
01:18:14.640
And this was, you didn't need a PhD in philosophy to understand this for most of history.
01:18:27.460
And so, since we're talking about religion, when you say that looking at porn and doing what people do when they look at porn is giving yourself a relationship with your hand and Pamela Henderson or something and a screen, as my college buddy, I don't think he coined it, but I did laugh when he mentioned that line, and a screen, though, is it darker than just the screen?
01:18:55.320
Or is it a liturgical act of worship to demons?
01:19:00.700
Well, if your objective when it comes to sex is to—as a believer, if your objective is to be between a man and a wife and that to be a representation of Christ and his church, like, what place does that have?
01:19:16.660
And John 10, 10, 10, 10 talks about how the enemy wants to kill, steal, and destroy, well, if I can steal the way that you see intimacy, I can cause you to create an idol.
01:19:28.840
And all of a sudden, this thing becomes an idol, and I'm disillusioned into the fact to believe that this is something I need.
01:19:35.780
And it's a real addiction, like, neurologically, like, you will form an addiction, something that you do over and over again that gives you a—you know, this dopamine hits your brain.
01:19:46.340
Those—yeah, it makes you feel good, but you're forming this artificial relationship with this fictitious reality.
01:19:53.780
I guess my question, though, is, is it—it's a fictitious reality in that these performers are not really the characters that they portray, not really their stage names.
01:20:02.700
But I wonder, in a deeper sense, is it a real thing?
01:20:08.820
Are you forming an intimate relationship with the principalities and powers and spiritual wickedness in high places?
01:20:17.000
Well, I mean, that's what the enemy tried to do to Jesus.
01:20:20.460
If I can get you to compromise your identity, I can get you to compromise further.
01:20:26.060
It's like, you know, even in the garden, did God really say that?
01:20:33.880
Do you know, providentially, just today, I mentioned something about Genesis on my daily show, and someone wrote in and said,
01:20:41.880
well, Michael, the quote you said, that's not the first thing that the serpent says in the garden.
01:20:50.820
Did God really say—did he really mean you were going to die?
01:20:56.260
So to question that identity, and then even now, you see all these headlines about the sex worker rights,
01:21:05.980
and especially all of the sexual revolution, LGBT stuff.
01:21:10.320
We're heading into the month of June, which is now one of the 12 months of the year dedicated to the rainbow.
01:21:15.840
I think it's pretty soon they're going to invent a 13th month to be another gay pride month.
01:21:19.800
So we're heading into June, and you're seeing all these corporations begin to really push this stuff.
01:21:25.000
And I can't help but notice one of the guys, I think it's actually a girl who identifies as a guy, who designed the pride clothing.
01:21:37.840
Well, and in addition to that, they used a rainbow, which is a symbolism of God's promise to not destroy the world.
01:21:55.380
But one of the people who designed the clothing for Target is an overt Satanist.
01:21:59.080
And I can't help but notice whenever I see these viral clips go around of some pro-sex work person or some pro-only fans person or some shill for the porn industry will come out, there's very often demonic, devilish imagery that goes along with that.
01:22:19.280
It's just, how come it's always these same images and these same symbols, all of which have been considered demonic and occult for thousands of years?
01:22:35.160
So the goat, like the, so I saw this on the Target clothing.
01:22:40.060
There was a guy who, he had goat horns on his head.
01:22:43.800
And then he had a goat thing on, head on his shirt, which was some satanic thing.
01:22:49.660
And you see it in the depiction of demon, like Baphomet or somebody.
01:22:58.320
The first, like the deep symbolism that points directly to evil, but to your point, yes, it is a direct correlation of evil, but where, you know, where God is absent, there is only evil.
01:23:13.360
So I would say yes, like to your point, it's like, it's a direct window into evil, into demons, into all these things.
01:23:21.460
Um, and that's why it's so dark and it leads to death and to, to the person advocating for the porn industry saying, well, how else could this person, you know, provide for their family?
01:23:36.460
It's like, who in their right mind wants to be a prostitute?
01:23:49.240
You, you don't wake up or you don't go to bed at night.
01:23:52.420
You lay down your head on a pillow and you think, I'm so proud of myself because I'm selling myself for sex.
01:23:59.380
It's contradictory to the way that you're wired.
01:24:06.100
But, but often when you push people on this, you say, well, I have to be a stripper or I have to be a prostitute or I have to be in porn or something like that.
01:24:14.880
You say, well, why can't you work in the service industry?
01:24:23.940
There's something that happened to you that made you believe that you could not pursue the thing that you're passionate about.
01:24:31.260
And because you can't pursue the thing you're passionate about because the trauma, whether it happened to you or you did it, you now define yourself through the lens of that trauma.
01:24:40.900
And you see yourself as incapable of doing the thing that you want to do.
01:24:45.040
So there's nothing left for you to do but to compromise.
01:24:52.040
But I just mean, since we all encounter the service industry throughout the day, you go get a coffee, you get a hamburger or something.
01:24:58.060
And you think, okay, many, if not most of us, have worked these jobs at some point.
01:25:03.400
They're not the most technically difficult jobs.
01:25:05.380
Pulling a good shot of espresso actually is kind of difficult.
01:25:09.820
But very often what people will say is, well, but they can't make it as much money.
01:25:18.640
Yeah, that's what I think, like, well, okay, you can make a, you can make a decent enough living, though.
01:25:23.320
Like a, you can smuggle, you know, weapons or whatever.
01:25:26.240
You know, there's, there's a variety of things that you could do that you shouldn't do that you could make money.
01:25:32.480
But just because you could doesn't mean you should.
01:25:34.940
I just, I could see all of those temptations, especially for people.
01:25:38.340
It's just so chilling to hear what that agent asked you.
01:25:40.660
The first thing, hey, tell me about your childhood.
01:25:46.540
You're looking for someone who you can manipulate based on the way that they see themselves.
01:25:51.160
Because if you don't have a foundation to stand on, you're going to, you're going to be with the wind.
01:25:57.420
Or you're going to go into whatever way that sounds good.
01:26:00.800
Because you don't know who you are and you're looking to the world to conform you.
01:26:07.700
People really ought to focus first on their relationship with God.
01:26:12.220
And they ought to, you know, work on sanctification and virtue and all the rest of that.
01:26:25.540
For obscenity very recently during the Bush administration, Bush number two.
01:26:29.900
There were pornographers who were sent to prison for, just not for child porn, not for other, just for smut.
01:26:40.320
Why is it that an eight-year-old can log on to any of these porn sites and watch whatever they want?
01:26:46.380
So I had the opportunity to speak at Capitol Hill and we're advocating for the Earning Act.
01:26:54.760
The most important piece would be creating a solidified way of verifying one's identity through a government-issued ID.
01:27:05.720
So actually, Louisiana and two other states, Utah and I forget the third, have implemented this legislation even though it hasn't passed yet.
01:27:17.600
And what's crazy is like right now in other places, you can just go to a site and make up a birthday or just click, are you 18?
01:27:29.080
I used to do that on tobacco websites for cigars.
01:27:41.000
And just making people aware of how it's impacting people.
01:27:48.080
84% of people who see porn under the age of 15 for the first time, it's incidental exposure.
01:27:55.180
Someone's looking for something on, you know, they're doing a biology project.
01:27:59.420
They scroll down one too many times and all of a sudden they see something that's pornographic.
01:28:04.980
If there's no barrier, if there's no, you know, if you don't have some kind of safety controls on your smart device, it's so easily accessible.
01:28:15.680
Because back in the day, for me, you know, it's like if you stayed up too late, like Skinamax and HBO After Dark, you know,
01:28:23.160
but because of streaming and because of cell phones, it's so easily accessible that you don't have to look for it.
01:28:31.240
And to your point, it's become so normative and then like OnlyFans and so on and so on.
01:28:36.700
It's become so normative that it's so prevalent that it's just out there for everyone.
01:28:43.180
And it's like when something becomes the norm, it's like, well, that might be bad, but it's just the way it is.
01:28:49.580
I also think even, I mean, we're talking about hardcore pornography industry preying on people.
01:28:59.840
You drive down Sunset Boulevard and look at just regular billboards.
01:29:07.780
And just regular content, like of people you know.
01:29:14.160
Some of my old pals from out there are a little more risque to begin with.
01:29:17.060
But that kind of content, the content in advertising, it's all kind of shades of gray.
01:29:26.420
Well, if you look at the laws around advertisement, they're from 10, 15 years ago where porn wasn't so prevalent.
01:29:34.800
But to advertise on Twitter, the age of consent is 13.
01:29:39.220
So you can advertise whatever you want to 13 and up, but no one foresaw the fact that people will be advertising pornography.
01:29:48.300
But that industry, to my point, $100 billion industry.
01:29:53.280
So there's that much money at stake, so you're asking me to change that legislation when it's making that much money?
01:30:01.920
It's like even knowing it's contributing to rape culture, it's contributing to sex trafficking, it's contributing to – it's insane.
01:30:10.740
So there's this person, her name's Heidi Olson.
01:30:13.860
She's a critical care nurse in Kansas City, Missouri.
01:30:16.500
50-plus cases per year of a sibling raping their – you know, a little boy raping a little girl or a little boy raping his brother.
01:30:32.660
This is happening in Kansas City, Missouri 100% of the time that kid watched so much porn that he went and did that.
01:30:40.860
Did the – I assume this is a spike in these numbers.
01:30:45.360
Like, I assume this is not a normal thing that nurses have been observing for –
01:30:50.120
Unfortunately, she sees it so much that that's all she does.
01:30:55.560
So that's – you know, I had the opportunity to partner with NACOSI, so the National Coalition Opposing Sexual Exploitation and Exodus Cry.
01:31:03.780
And we were at Capitol Hill advocating for that legislation.
01:31:07.840
We sat down with different, you know, state representatives, and there was a woman there, and she was sharing her story where she was dating someone, and then they went to Vegas.
01:31:18.560
And while they're in Vegas, this person actually drugs her, and he rapes her and films it.
01:31:24.700
And then he has a few friends come, and they rape her, and they all film it, and he puts this on Pornhub.
01:31:35.500
Eventually, the person's identified, it's taken down, he gets arrested and charged.
01:31:42.240
Yet, the images still exist on Google, and Google says there's no clear – you know, there's no clarity regarding this person.
01:31:54.260
There's no clear, like, you know, around the whole consent thing.
01:31:58.800
There's no clear sign of this person being objectified or raped or anything like that.
01:32:05.300
So they left the imagery up, even with that case.
01:32:17.440
I wonder, too, I mean, this is a good framing of the issue, because it'll probably resonate more.
01:32:24.040
You say, well, obviously, it's about sexual crimes and breaking laws that are already on the books.
01:32:30.560
But isn't there also an argument that if 90% of men are looking at this stuff, or have looked at it at some point, it's probably much higher than that.
01:32:41.280
And this is a regular problem that is constantly degrading people's views of themselves, views of other people.
01:32:48.580
You're communing with demons, let's just call it what it is.
01:32:53.300
How do you have a good country if 100% of men, or thereabouts, and a large number of women, are perpetually in a state of mortal sin?
01:33:05.920
Isn't that a problem for the political community to try to work on?
01:33:10.980
And I think that what you're wrestling with is a tremendous amount of money.
01:33:19.660
And then also this false belief that I should be able to do whatever I feel like.
01:33:30.920
What's crazy, from a Christian perspective, liberty is actually the choice to be able to say no to the things I
01:33:46.100
You know, it's like Galatians 5, 22 and 23, it talks about the last thing, fruits of the Spirit, self-control.
01:33:52.220
Like self-control is evidence of the Holy Spirit.
01:33:56.160
That was the idea of liberal education and the liberal arts was to discipline yourself to be able to control your base appetites and desires for a higher freedom.
01:34:07.120
Because the freedom to shoot heroin or something, that's not freedom.
01:34:13.940
You know, if you told John Adams and George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, hey, the freedom thing, it's working out really great.
01:34:21.300
Here in 2023, guys, you can look at as much weirdo porn as you want.
01:34:28.040
And as young as 13, I think they would say, you know what, this country, forget about it.
01:34:39.420
That's obviously not what they thought freedom was.
01:34:44.080
I mean, to even paint it like a darker picture, it's like you, there was a Netflix documentary that I was watching like a year or two ago.
01:34:53.360
And this person, he was wrongly persecuted and he was in prison.
01:34:57.540
And now he had a show where he was traveling and just this is what this prison looks like.
01:35:05.080
This is, you know, the geographical location, so on and so on.
01:35:08.200
And he was in this one prison and he found out that 84% of the guys there, this is a different country, but 84% of the guys there, they had been convicted of rape.
01:35:23.620
So he, you know, asked, you know, like 50 people or so, like, you know, how did this happen?
01:35:31.420
In their culture, men were more important than women and sex was something that a man was owed.
01:35:39.060
Pornography, it portrays the same thing, that you should be able to walk into a room and just have sex with someone.
01:35:47.460
And then also, you know, in the 80th percentile, like all pornography has some level of violence in it.
01:35:53.240
So now you're digesting something you're developing an appetite for, you develop an appetite for something that is not only opposite of what you were designed to desire, it's actually contrary to what's reality.
01:36:08.880
But if you get this appetite for it, you're going to feel insatiable until you partake.
01:36:15.280
This is something that, it's amazing how people have forgotten what taste and desire are and what they're like.
01:36:24.940
No child starts out with a hankering for scotch.
01:36:29.080
No 10-year-old says, I can really go for a scotch today.
01:36:40.640
But then you acquire them and then you desire them.
01:36:43.120
And then sometimes, once you acquire the taste for scotch, you desire rum or tequila or something.
01:36:51.660
Did you see an interview with Andy Wachowski, who's one of the guys behind the Matrix movies, and he and his brother both became trans at a certain point.
01:37:01.120
The guys who created the Matrix about this disconnect between reality and the virtual reality.
01:37:07.840
And Andy Wachowski, one of the brothers, gives an interview and he says, oh yeah, porn was what led me to my transgender identity.
01:37:16.340
I watched a bunch of porn and then I started identifying as trans.
01:37:27.020
And he actually said porn was the thing that led him to this thing and this thing and this thing.
01:37:32.640
Like you, you know, at one point in my life, I could drink one Bud Light and get a buzz.
01:37:38.700
You know, and then, you know, you need more to...
01:37:44.200
Yeah, like you go on this trajectory where I need more of this thing to get this feeling that I had.
01:37:50.040
Well, I think of probably a caricature of what risque material was like in the 19th century, which is, you know, a woman in a big frilly dress.
01:37:58.580
She says, oh, I'm going to show a little bit of my ankle or something.
01:38:02.020
And, but obviously the way that these baser appetites work, you're never satisfied.
01:38:07.060
So when you say, okay, increasingly porn is violent and people are consuming more violent porn, obviously this is cultivating certain tastes and desires.
01:38:17.640
And so if an eight-year-old or whatever, a 10-year-old gets hooked on to porn, it's not that he's going to immediately start looking at weird transsexual billy goat porn.
01:38:32.340
It's like he's going to look at a Playboy or something.
01:38:34.900
And then it's going to be this harder thing and this harder thing.
01:38:37.360
And then it gets pretty dark pretty quick just judging by the statistics.
01:38:42.400
Yeah, I mean, well, even like psychologically, you see, I think it was in the 80s, there was someone who won a Nobel Prize around this research.
01:38:52.820
And he did this research around supernormal stimulus.
01:38:55.760
And he studied a level of, so he studied this butterfly.
01:39:02.140
And there was this species of butterfly where he created a female butterfly.
01:39:06.760
And Buddy made brighter, better, 3D, and put this butterfly into space.
01:39:13.680
And the male butterflies tried to mate with this butterfly.
01:39:18.800
But then the byproduct of that was they started ignoring the female butterflies.
01:39:23.500
And then they started fighting among each other.
01:39:27.980
And it's a really, you know, it's a great correlation to what porn is.
01:39:31.320
Because if you're desiring something that's a fictitious reality, you're going to become insatiable for it.
01:39:38.560
And you're seeing men, you know, struggling with erectile dysfunction.
01:39:43.500
You're seeing people, you know, being unfaithful to their spouse.
01:39:46.920
You're seeing all these things because there's a disconnect from what is real in contrast to what is fake.
01:39:52.240
Like the movie Inception, you know, there's this fight in this elevator scene.
01:39:57.160
And you don't see that and you think, man, they just have, you know, one day they must have just, you know, gotten that elevator and threw that together.
01:40:16.120
You're creating a fantasy that doesn't exist that's creating the experience.
01:40:21.180
But if you believe that experience to be true and then you develop a desire or a taste for it and you go to seek it out and you can't find it, you're going to end up doing things that you never thought you would do.
01:40:35.940
Because it's even, not just the surreality of the porn film.
01:40:49.440
Where you say, as you're describing, well, no, that's just compartmentalized over here.
01:40:55.220
That thing that I'm doing, you know, on my computer, on my phone, that's not really me.
01:41:07.360
So obviously you can't just compartmentalize that.
01:41:15.360
It's going to affect your desires and even the moral reality.
01:41:29.000
And I think even more so that you're seeing these people develop, you know, these appetites
01:41:34.360
watching pornography and they end up with someone, you know, they get married.
01:41:39.540
Number one, believing the lie that if I get married, my porn addiction will go away.
01:41:44.340
And now I have these appetites for these things that I've developed, you know, a desire for.
01:41:54.580
And now I'm going to bring these presuppositions about what sex is supposed to be into my marriage
01:41:59.600
bed and then if they don't meet my desire, I'm going to continue watching porn or I'm going
01:42:04.740
to go outside of the marriage because I believe I need this thing to be satisfied where God
01:42:15.180
It's a great part of marriage, but marriage in itself is not only about sex.
01:42:24.540
But it's like, well, because it's, it's, it's, again, it's like, it's idolatry.
01:42:29.100
If I make sex God, I'm going to do any, any and everything in my power to submit and surrender
01:42:37.060
But even the idea that porn is without consequence, you know, what people view sex as without
01:42:42.140
consequence, but of course marriage traditionally understood is intended for the good of the
01:42:47.400
spouses and for the sake of the generation and education of children.
01:42:50.940
That it's a real love, a love that is so real that it actually becomes enfleshed in this real
01:42:59.040
Who, and hopefully many new people who, you know, are a result of that love.
01:43:04.440
We divorce all of that, even our popular culture.
01:43:09.860
Well, and also it's just, there's, there's a, there's a huge difference between love and
01:43:22.100
You know, one's very sacrificial and one costs you something and one's easy and it's,
01:43:29.340
And one's about me, one's about self-control, one's about giving into myself.
01:43:33.860
I mean, the, one of the traditional definitions of love is that love is to will the good of
01:43:42.260
Not for, and so obviously that's the opposite, but I just, I was talking with a friend of
01:43:49.600
I think there was some headline about how in Japan people want to look at porn more than
01:43:58.400
Could you imagine you got, you got an opportunity to sleep with a woman or to look at porn?
01:44:07.480
You, I mean, speaking of that culture, you go into a place where you don't even have to
01:44:14.100
I mean, we're living in a culture where people don't want to pick up a phone and call somebody.
01:44:20.820
We don't want any, people have so much social anxiety.
01:44:26.940
The, the porn is, requires no effort, is never going to judge you.
01:44:34.960
And the porn can be whatever stuff you type in.
01:44:37.840
You're going to have like three furries and an alien and I don't know, whatever.
01:44:42.200
Like speaking of that, so I, I was speaking of furries, I was, I was at a conference.
01:44:48.340
So it's called Think Media and it's a Christian conference and it bring in different speakers
01:44:53.680
And the objective is for you to be able to think critically about, you know, things that
01:44:59.100
are going on in culture and be able to speak into them as Christian leaders.
01:45:02.880
And there was this person just talking about the, just the insane stuff going on inside
01:45:09.160
And I, I, I did not know this, but in Washington state, there is multiple schools that have
01:45:18.080
rooms with kitty litter in them for people who identify as furries to urinate.
01:45:27.260
I, this can't, I refuse to believe that this is real.
01:45:33.040
So there's, there's, there's tax dollars have gone to building rooms that have kitty litter
01:45:40.280
There's litter boxes that, you know, adolescents go into and urinate in, and the teachers will
01:45:49.080
You know, they'll, they'll, you know, their, their jobs are on the line for them to communicate
01:45:57.040
Though I prefer to just reject the possibility that this could even be real.
01:46:03.420
In another sense, I, I feel better about that than I do about some guy going into the girl's
01:46:09.220
If a guy thinks he's a cat and he wants to go to a litter box.
01:46:13.040
At least he's not invading a woman's private space.
01:46:15.480
You know, it's not exactly, uh, ordered living, probably not conducive to human flourishing.
01:46:20.760
Well, like even like more detrimental than that, there's legislation in Washington state
01:46:26.180
trying to be passed where 13 and up, you could say, I want to change my gender.
01:46:32.920
And then they, then, you know, they, they, they contact government authority and without
01:46:39.960
any consent or knowledge of the parents, they save the child and then they mutilate them
01:46:45.920
or provide them with whatever procedure or medication using tax dollars to do so.
01:46:51.740
And the parents have no say so about the matter.
01:46:55.100
I saw a headline in the Associated Press, which has become very left-wing, used to, used to
01:47:01.020
Now it's a very left-wing activist news outlet.
01:47:03.880
And the headline said something to the effect of, Washington state protects trans kids from
01:47:21.580
It's, I mean, for me, it's just incredibly sad to, to be at a place, you know, I'm a father
01:47:37.780
How, in what place do we get where adults are allowing kids to tell them they feel some
01:47:46.640
sort of way that's been propagated to them, what, like through a person or, you know, an
01:47:52.700
organization or whatever, where have they heard it?
01:47:54.640
Because this is not a thought that enters someone's mind normally.
01:48:01.040
How do we get to a point where we're allowing kids at 13 years old that can't vote, can't
01:48:07.400
see a rated R movie, um, can't, you know, do, like numerous things decide they can make
01:48:17.080
Well, so the answer, how do we get to that point, is in part because of perpetual ubiquitous
01:48:22.480
So then, having come full circle, and you've come out of it, and more than full circle,
01:48:28.100
and you're in a much better place now, do you ever have contact with the people from
01:48:37.040
Do you ever say like, hey guys, this is a better option?
01:48:41.220
Um, so for me, uh, so I got to the place that I got to in life through, you know, number
01:48:48.480
one, you know, having a relationship with God, um, developing, uh, uh, an understanding
01:48:55.660
of the Bible and allowing it to conform my life in contrast to the world conforming, uh,
01:49:02.780
me, or my feelings, or my past, or my feelings, and as I go on that journey, I, I go to counseling
01:49:08.900
And, um, and part of that was I had to kind of dismantle and destroy everything that I
01:49:16.140
And at early on, like me becoming, you know, a Christian, I was like, I'm going to save
01:49:23.160
And so I would, I reached back out to those people and I started, you know, interacting
01:49:27.800
with them on social media and like talking with them.
01:49:30.940
And what I found was I still had a lot of trauma that I was carrying and it was actually
01:49:37.480
unhealthy for me to, to see the things they were posting.
01:49:41.380
And, and, you know, even though I was able to acknowledge that this is not something that
01:49:45.340
I would ever want to be part of again, or, and, and then it, you know, it was bad, um,
01:49:54.940
But to your point, I, I, I didn't continue reaching out, but what they saw and many people
01:50:02.180
have saw is I wanted to take my life because I thought, um, I would never be a father.
01:50:13.960
I thought like, sure, I could convince a girl to marry me, like sure, I could get a
01:50:16.840
girl pregnant, but I would never have the capacity to be a father.
01:50:20.820
I would never have the capacity to be a husband.
01:50:22.940
I think most guys, no matter how well adjusted you are, you think that's a lot of responsibility.
01:50:28.020
But I, I think pretty much every man who has become a father says that, especially someone
01:50:33.100
who's got this fairly colorful and traumatic past is going to feel that especially.
01:50:38.320
Yeah. And then in, in, in addition to that, I thought, okay, for me, if, if I'm not leading
01:50:44.140
something or being creative, it's like detrimental to me emotionally.
01:50:48.760
Like I need to be able to be creative in a way that impacts people.
01:50:53.240
And I thought, well, there's no way that I'll be able to do that.
01:50:56.900
Like there, no one's hiring me for like any kind of acting job that's legitimate.
01:51:02.580
Um, I'm not doing any kind of modeling, probably just not healthy for me to do.
01:51:06.280
So what organization is going to take me seriously?
01:51:08.940
Like, who am I going to contribute to in any capacity?
01:51:11.300
Like all, so I, I wanted to take my life because I thought there's things like any, anything
01:51:17.100
that I long for regarding a future, I didn't think were possible.
01:51:20.820
So for me, uh, you know, I, I lead a very healthy organization.
01:51:27.180
Uh, I, I do itinerant work, you know, I'm, I'm about to plan a church.
01:51:37.240
Well, I'm doing everything I thought that wasn't possible.
01:51:40.760
So when people see, like, it's, it's not about my success or the fact that, you know,
01:51:46.220
I have this influence or whatever, like that's whatever.
01:51:49.680
I'm living this healthy life and I'm full of joy because I have these things in my life
01:51:57.380
And you're, there's no, you're, you're prudent in that.
01:52:00.260
I read a book, a staple of spiritual combat called the spiritual combat by Don Lorenzo Scupoli.
01:52:08.840
And in it, he talks about the impulse to face temptation head on and I can overcome it.
01:52:18.840
And for certain temptations that can be helpful to really take it on head on.
01:52:31.760
So if you're following these porn affiliate people and you're seeing that.
01:52:40.640
You know, you've got to be wise as a serpent, innocent as a dove.
01:52:43.320
So for me, I had people in my life to say, here's how I'm feeling.
01:52:50.220
It's not a good idea because what I didn't have in my life is people to both encourage
01:52:59.420
Because we need to be called up, you know, and called out sometimes.
01:53:06.400
So having it in my life and saying, hey, this is what I'm doing.
01:53:11.760
I don't think you're in a place where this is healthy.
01:53:13.800
But, you know, eight years later, living the life I'm living now, there's people that are
01:53:17.960
in that industry that have one foot in, one foot out, or maybe have left the industry
01:53:22.540
are reaching out to me saying, I actually left or I actually did this because I see what
01:53:31.440
And it's not, you know, there's no promise of a wife or a husband.
01:53:40.880
You know, I mean, that's the thing is people think, well, you know, because I've made these
01:53:44.260
three choices, I can't have a wife or a husband.
01:53:48.420
Some people, if they do get married, can't have children.
01:53:53.340
It doesn't need to make or break your sanctification.
01:53:57.380
And the beautiful thing about that, so joy is not something that's circumstantial.
01:54:06.480
It's a gift that's offered to you to be received.
01:54:10.640
And it comes through a relationship with Jesus.
01:54:30.020
Again, there's so many aspects of, I'm sure that we would differ in certain things regarding
01:54:38.100
But what I love is the commitment to, like, we would differ in that, you know, what sanctification
01:54:46.040
You know, in a moment in contrast to it being progressive and things like that.
01:54:55.780
So, I mean, just like, you know, you've got salvation, sanctification, justification,
01:55:02.280
But salvation is progressive in that you are progressively being changed.
01:55:09.180
So, progressively, there's this journey that you go on, and as you're going on that journey,
01:55:19.020
And those steps have to be away from, like, 2 Corinthians 5.17 is real for the life of a
01:55:26.040
The person that you used to be is dead, and now you have a new identity, a new heart,
01:55:43.340
And so, for me, it's like, step by step, these are the steps that I took, but it started with
01:55:53.600
There's this one piece of the puzzle that you can't replace, but these steps along the
01:55:58.460
way, and people are seeing that, and they're responding to the fact.
01:56:01.860
It's like, it's not that, you know, you have this or you have that.
01:56:06.400
It's, you've got this joy that I didn't think I could ever have, and you believe that.
01:56:14.360
This inarticulable, undeniable joy that lives within you, for instance.
01:56:18.960
But it's like, I want that, but the fact that you have it, it's intriguing enough to
01:56:30.140
Lewis, when he said, when you're a kid, you think chocolate is the greatest thing.
01:56:35.280
You cannot imagine anything greater than chocolate.
01:56:38.560
And if someone came up to you, these days, I guess this would happen in a kindergarten
01:56:41.680
classroom, but someone comes up to you and says, hey, you ever hear about sex?
01:56:51.900
And if you're a kid, you have to think, well, I guess sex involves chocolate.
01:56:58.480
So whatever is better, it's got to involve chocolate.
01:57:00.620
And you don't realize there's something better.
01:57:02.440
And unfortunately, in our culture, that's kind of where people stop.
01:57:08.580
Sex is better than chocolate, and sex is the best thing.
01:57:13.540
There are many better things, and there's ultimately a highest good.
01:57:20.480
And I love that, you know, so because like suicidal ideation is part of my story, it's like there's a project that I'm working on where there's these, you know, this organization called Stay Here, and there are organizations around that.
01:57:35.820
You know, every 40 seconds, someone dies of suicide.
01:57:40.940
So we did one project where you would appreciate this.
01:57:45.840
We just took a bunch of different Christian influencers, and we just read through the Apostles' Creed.
01:57:52.280
And we read through the Apostles' Creed, and that was it.
01:57:58.640
It was many organizations, many people, one message, one unified message, a reflection of John 17.
01:58:05.500
When people see, you know, when the world sees us, you'll see a reflection of Christ.
01:58:10.560
So we did that, and then our next project is we're working with NFL quarterbacks.
01:58:15.780
So we've got like 15 Super Bowl winners, like multiple like Hall of Famers, and we're doing this video, and they're just simply saying, stay here.
01:58:26.040
You know, you're loved, because that's what I didn't think.
01:58:37.500
And just seeing that God is allowing me to be just a small part in projects like that, and do some of the things I'm doing, and live the life that I'm living.
01:58:47.400
And, you know, I wake up every day, and it's like a dream, you know?
01:58:54.040
I have friends who got to your point where they were just about to do it.
01:59:07.400
And you think, what that thin line, that moment.
01:59:14.200
Because it'd be one thing if you just knew a lot of people, not a lot, but some number of people, who came up to the brink, and then they pulled back.
01:59:21.620
And you say, okay, well, maybe that's just a feature of suicidal ideation.
01:59:24.760
You get up to a point, and then you go no further.
01:59:27.300
But knowing, and you know more people than I do who killed themselves.
01:59:33.020
That's a real cliff, and people fall off it all the time.
01:59:37.080
And you got up that close, and then a bank teller said my name.
01:59:44.200
And what's wild, so my friend Jacob, who's the CEO and founder of that organization, Stay Here, he says simply, it's the easiest thing that you could ever, you know, just dealing with suicide.
02:00:06.460
It's much easier than you would think in that the person just needs to be asked, hey, are you thinking about taking your life?
02:00:15.880
And more often than not, research says they'll say yes.
02:00:18.600
And then once they say it, it becomes real, and then you can have a conversation.
02:00:27.740
Like the guy who jumps off a building, anyone who survives that says instantly they regretted it.
02:00:36.880
Like many times, I forget, I think someone jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge or whatever, which how they lived, I'm not sure.
02:00:45.320
But literally the second you did it, it's like, God help me, you know?
02:00:53.100
And so just to even put that out there, I mean, getting back to, I guess, the top point of the conversation,
02:01:00.320
the power of a word and the power of a name to identify things and distinguish between them,
02:01:06.740
I mean, so much of the political correctness or this kind of agenda that seems so destructive is about calling things by fake names
02:01:19.220
in order to manipulate how people view them, view themselves.
02:01:23.380
Yeah, and I love, like, in Hebrew, my name means Yahweh is salvation.
02:01:29.940
Yeah, and then so our first son, we named him Cannon.
02:01:38.320
So he was the measure of God's grace to me in my life.