＂What's Hidden In The Vatican？＂ FACE-Off Bishop Barron Vs Michael Knowles
Episode Stats
Words per Minute
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Summary
In preparation for the new documentary, The Pope and the Fuhrer: The Secret Vatican Files of World War II, streaming exclusively on Daily Wire Plus on August 13th, we re stepping inside the smallest country in the world with some of the biggest secrets, Vatican City. In one corner, Michael Knowles is here to uncover the real third secret of Fatima, and promote his new documentary. And in the other corner, Bishop Robert Barron is a man who knows the Vatican and its secret archives so well, he might just break news and reveal lost secrets.
Transcript
00:00:00.000
These are questions that take cultures thousands of years to answer.
00:00:04.740
During Answer the Call, I take questions from people just like you
00:00:07.920
about their problems, opportunities, challenges, or when they simply need advice.
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How do I balance all of this grief, responsibility?
00:00:18.080
My daughter, Michaela, guides the conversations
00:00:20.540
as we hopefully help people navigate their lives.
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Which of the following is a popular but unproven conspiracy theory
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they contain proof that aliens existed on Earth,
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I've never heard the alien. That's kind of funny.
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we're stepping inside the smallest country in the world
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who's here to uncover the real third secret of Fatima
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a man who knows the Vatican and its secret archives so well,
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he might just break news and reveal lost secrets
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How does a Protestant know about the third secret of Fatima?
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You know, there's some wild, wild theories about it.
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And hopefully, Bishop Barron can fill us in on how that's going.
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The premise was you were going to bring me on for Vatican trivia,
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and I have to play against His Excellency Bishop Robert Barron,
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one of the most knowledgeable and scholarly men of the church today.
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So I've been to Vatican City, but all the details of it,
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Which subway line goes to, I don't know, actually.
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Michael, have you actually been to Vatican City?
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You'll have 30 seconds to write down your response.
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At the end, whoever loses will do a commercial for the other person.
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Like, I'm going to promote the succession from the apostles?
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Well, the various books, the fantastic books that Bishop Barron has written.
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If you walked around the full border of Vatican City, how long would it take you to walk at
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I rode my bike around Vatican City at the end of a trip from Paris to Rome with this friend
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of mine, and we did a victory lap around Vatican City.
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So I can answer by, so this is by foot though, huh?
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And you know, I'm a New Yorker, so you got to shave off.
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Actually, Vatican City is only about 0.6 miles around.
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How long did it take to build the current St. Peter's Basilica?
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Construction began in 1506 under Pope Julius II.
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I'm going to be demoted to whatever is below laity.
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I don't know if there's anything, but I might, I don't know.
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Roughly how many printed books and manuscripts are housed in the Vatican Library?
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That was smart, Michael, because you're both correct.
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I think you should have really, like, prayed before we started doing this.
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Right now, you got to go to hallow.com slash Knowles.
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This August, I want you to join me for the St. Michael's Lent Challenge on Hallow.
00:06:06.660
It refers to the archangel, actually, who boots the devil down to hell.
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It's a 40-day journey of prayer, fasting, and real spiritual growth,
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inspired by St. Francis of Assisi's devotion to St. Michael the Archangel.
00:06:20.940
St. Michael's Lent is an ancient tradition that calls us to virtue, sacrifice, and sanctity.
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You will tackle the seven deadly sins head-on, pride, anger, lust, envy, sloth, gluttony, and avarice,
00:06:31.460
with insights from Fulton Sheen's Victory Over Vice, read by Chris Stefanik and Father Isaiah.
00:06:37.660
You will hear honest, sometimes hilarious stories from people like comedian Shane Smith about battling vice in real life.
00:06:43.460
Plus, you will journey with the real St. Francis, not the sanitized hippie version with little birds, you know, chirping in his ear.
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We're talking about the bold, radical saint who was completely in love with God.
00:06:54.780
The challenge includes the litany of St. Michael, gospel reflections, and a powerful closing novena.
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As we approach Michaelmas on September 29th, this is your chance to armor up spiritually.
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If you're tired of soft, secular, squishy approaches, and ready to grow in grace through real spiritual discipline,
00:07:14.900
Get three months free at hallow.com slash Knowles.
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How long is the shelving space inside the Vatican Library and Apostolic Archive combined?
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That's going to be the closest without going over.
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And the Apostolic Archive is what we used to call the secret.
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So he'll probably have a better guess on this than you.
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How many miles is the entire Vatican Library and Apostolic Archive combined?
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You didn't even get me a marker with ink in it.
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Yeah, my marker's very good here at Word on Fire.
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I think we need to hire some of the producers from Word on Fire.
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There must be so many shelves running through there in the archive.
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That's the only thing that anyone's going to remember.
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I'm glad I got one point that Bishop Barron also got.
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Which of the following is a popular but unproven conspiracy theory about the Vatican archives?
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B, they contain proof that aliens existed on Earth.
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No, because I've heard at least a couple of those.
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That's why the Ark of the Covenant, for sure, and the alien life and all that.
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Bishop Barron, can you spill some tea on the time machine?
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Because this one actually has some legs and some stories behind it.
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Yeah, there was like a Cardinal Smith had left, and then he drew what it looked like
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and claims that they had this time machine down in the base.
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Yeah, that the Vatican has, and there's a drawing of it.
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If they really have the Ark of the Covenant, which is some plausibility.
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If it was still around at the time of the Roman destruction of Jerusalem, that's the question.
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Don't they say if the Ark of the Covenant still exists anywhere, it's either in the Vatican
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In fact, I was—not long ago, I was with an Ethiopian priest, and we talked about that.
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And he said, oh, of course, we have it in Ethiopia.
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Did you—I wouldn't want you to call your friend a liar.
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Do you find—do you have any credence to these theories, or?
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I think it was lost around the time of Jeremiah, and we don't know where it is.
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I think either he hid it someplace and it remains hidden, or it was destroyed at the time of the captivity.
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There's the Tannis theory, because, of course, Jeremiah goes to Egypt and likely died there, was killed there.
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We have the new Ark of the Covenant anyway, so it's not—it's just a historical curiosity as far as I'm concerned.
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Well, it's a theory, and it's—if it were still around Jerusalem when the Romans came and, you know, destroyed Jerusalem,
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they certainly would have taken it, and they'd taken it back to Rome,
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and then the church, you know, plausibly might have gotten a hold of it, but who knows?
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It's really all I care about with regard to this question, though I do have to ask.
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And what we also know is that Michael's still currently getting destroyed as we go into number six.
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Which pope commissioned Michelangelo to paint the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel?
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Is it A, Pope Innocent III, B, Pope Leo X, C, Pope Julius II, D, Pope Clement VII?
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I thought so, and I didn't want to be laughed out of the room.
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Do we have options, or do we just have to say what it is?
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Is this, like, however many things you can name you get at that many points?
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If you Google what's underneath St. Peter's Basilica, this is what comes up.
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I said the relics of the first pope, St. Peter.
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Well, I say the scavi, which means the excavations under St. Peter's.
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The correct answer that I have is first-century necropolis and the bones of St. Peter.
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Hey, I mean, so Bishop Barron is literally correct, but can I get the point?
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The scavi, that's what it uncovered, was that first-century cemetery.
00:14:16.140
But Your Excellency, Mr. Davies is not cultured enough to have used that nice foreign word.
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Yeah, because that word could mean whatever you tell me, because I know my Latin is so bad
00:14:30.260
I believe you that it's underneath there, so we can take that.
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I'm not going to rest until I get some credit for that answer.
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I take you down there, and it does indeed reveal this first-century cemetery with little
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roads and graves, and they lead you finally to where they are pretty sure they found the
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Actually, just yesterday, I was having lunch with a friend of mine who, you know, in recent
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decades, Catholics don't seem to care as much about relics as we used to for the first
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And so priests and other people have given her relics.
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And I actually saw what purports to be a relic of St. Peter.
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And she has some certificates of authenticity and things like that.
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But it struck me because modern Christians and even Catholics today, they look at relics
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like it's kind of weird or idolatrous or superstitious or something.
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But it seems to me Christians have always had a great reverence for relics.
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You can see people going up to St. Paul and touching him with handkerchiefs and all that.
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It's all over the Church Fathers, the ancient Church.
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It's an extension of the incarnational principle, right?
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And then the saints who are aligned to Christ is sort of a continuation of that incarnational
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And so in reverencing the bones or the flesh or the remnants of saints, you know, we're
00:16:06.940
We're filming on this cathedral documentary I'm doing.
00:16:10.320
And in Amiens Cathedral is the relic of the skull of St. John the Baptist.
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It's like the front part of the skull, which came to Amiens 1206 from Constantinople.
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And then, you know, so they were very big in the Middle Ages.
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And still to this day, talk to a Catholic, they love collecting relics.
00:16:31.140
Yes, I was actually, my friend who I had lunch with, she was very kind and gave me two first
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One of St. Jerome and one of St. Thomas Aquinas.
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And I was, you know, I said, all right, that's so kind of you.
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And I found, I don't know, especially because I'm a revert, so I have to learn everything
00:16:53.100
I find the veneration of relics is really helpful in my prayer life.
00:16:58.880
Can I tell you a story about the Thomas relics?
00:17:13.540
And then right, I didn't even notice it until halfway through the mass, right in front of
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So the people there claimed that when Thomas's bones were moved to Toulouse, that's where most
00:17:26.940
of them are now in the south of France, they kept the skull because that's where he died
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So there are two skulls competing for authenticity of Aquinas.
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And people say, well, he was so smart, he needed two hands.
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So during the mass, I remember just sort of noticing the skull of my great spiritual
00:18:03.080
I had this thought, you know, in my office here, I have a Caravaggio St. Jerome writing as
00:18:07.760
a memento mori that I should do my work so that I don't waste all my life.
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And then I found, I even put, when my friend gave me these relics, I thought, these are
00:18:16.460
two wonderful relics to have when you're trying to write.
00:18:21.200
Because St. Jerome and St. Thomas are, they're definitely a little more prolific than me.
00:18:38.680
And he wrote a library of books at the highest level of literary and philosophical achievement.
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Dictated to three or four secretaries simultaneously.
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Like a chess master, you know, moving from chessboard to chessboard.
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He would dictate, you know, Aristotle commentary, a Bible commentary, part of the Summa, and then
00:19:03.260
And he would just go around like that, dictating.
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And they say in the afternoon, he took a little nap and would dictate in his sleep.
00:19:10.680
That is actually, at the Daily Wire, that is how I do my tweets.
00:19:13.900
I'll say, okay, talk about the American Eagle jeans ad, you, and now you're going to talk.
00:19:19.820
That's, I'm sorry that I even have to continue the game.
00:19:25.240
Well, I'm just trying to distract from my losing.
00:19:30.480
Well, I'm sure you just want to continue because you're winning by such a large margin, Bishop.
00:19:38.200
Number eight, what year did the name Vatican Secret Archives change to the Vatican Apostolic Archive?
00:19:55.160
And the reasoning was citing the negative connotation of the word secret.
00:20:01.280
I think discretion is good and people don't have enough of it these days.
00:20:25.040
Well, I mean, it makes sense because he's done so much research in the Secret Vatican Archives,
00:20:29.820
especially during World War II, actually, Michael.
00:20:35.400
The Pope and the Fuhrer, The Secret Vatican Files of World War II at Daily Wire Plus, August 13th.
00:20:41.740
I want to share something that I'm very proud to have led here at Daily Wire Plus.
00:20:44.660
That is a new docu-series that uncovers one of the most distorted historical narratives of the modern age.
00:20:50.700
It's called The Pope and the Fuhrer, The Secret Vatican Files of World War II.
00:20:53.800
For decades, Pope Pius XII, one of the most consequential men of the 20th century, one of the greatest men of the 20th century,
00:21:00.220
has been slandered and condemned for his supposed silence during Hitler's rise and during Nazi atrocities.
00:21:08.460
Now, with unprecedented access to the Vatican's wartime archives, we uncover what really happened and why the truth was buried for so long.
00:21:27.120
For 80 years, the world has condemned one man as the Pope of Silence, the man who stood by in the face of shocking evil.
00:21:35.200
But can we trust the popular narrative, even after all these years?
00:21:43.800
This is not just a story about Hitler and the Holocaust.
00:21:47.460
One of the worst lies ever told about the Catholic Church is what she did or did not do in one of modernity's darkest hours.
00:21:56.080
Now, for the first time, the Vatican's secret archive is open, and the truth is far more shocking than the fiction.
00:22:01.800
Propagandists have peddled one story for decades, but now we can definitively know better.
00:22:09.400
Join me in this four-part series, where we will discover the true story of Pope Pius XII, Hitler, and the Second World War.
00:22:20.260
The series premieres Wednesday, August 13th, exclusively on Daily Wire+.
00:22:26.900
I'm glad you're doing that, because there's a great calumny against Pius XII,
00:22:30.440
and against a lot of Catholics at that time, so I'm glad you're doing that.
00:22:33.740
Yeah, I was thrilled when we could release this, because of all the maligned men of the 20th century,
00:22:42.460
you know, some people earned their reputation, but Pius XII has just really been slandered, in my view,
00:22:49.080
and so I hope that people can enjoy it when it comes out.
00:22:53.720
I think that's important to rehabilitate him, because it was a great calumny against him.
00:22:58.040
I was just in Münster, Germany, you know, before Rome, I was in Münster, and I went to the cathedral there,
00:23:03.420
and there was the grave of Cardinal von Gallen, and his nickname, he was known as the Lion of Münster,
00:23:08.560
because he spoke out so strongly against Hitler.
00:23:11.720
So there were some very courageous figures, not to mention the great martyrs, like Edith Stein and people like that.
00:23:17.480
So no, it's important to round out that story, certainly.
00:23:22.980
And you can round it out in your own estimation, everyone out there, if you just tune in, Daily Wire Plus.
00:23:29.960
And speaking of popes who have passed, how many popes are buried underneath St. Peter's Basilica?
00:23:41.600
It's like, the way you said D makes me think it's D.
00:23:59.940
There's a sign there, they say, oh, here are the popes buried in St. Peter, this huge line.
00:24:06.740
You know, I was just, I was in Rome very briefly with my family about a month ago, and it was so brief, in fact, that we didn't really have time to get to the Vatican.
00:24:15.200
We were staying on the other side of the city, but we were near the papal basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore.
00:24:20.780
We had to fly out for Sunday morning, so we went to a vigil mass on Saturday, and we're there.
00:24:26.320
And I said, man, this is a huge line to get into mass.
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I'm so glad people are showing up to go to mass.
00:24:32.880
But then I remembered, oh, Pope Francis is entombed here.
00:24:38.320
And so there was a separate line just to go see the pope's grave.
00:24:42.660
Well, yesterday was the feast of the dedication of St. Mary Major.
00:24:54.020
August 5th, you're at the height of Roman, you know, tropical summer.
00:24:57.420
And so way back when, when they were designing that building, snow fell anomalously on August 5th at the outline of the basilica.
00:25:14.700
And that was built right after the Council of Ephesus when Mary was declared Theotokos, Mother of God.
00:25:20.940
So it's the first great church in the West dedicated to Mary.
00:25:24.440
But it's, that's an important kind of theological point that church is making.
00:25:29.880
He visited there all the time and that's where he's buried.
00:25:32.520
That, there's also a point where sometimes when I'm chatting with my many Protestant friends, some of them are more pro-Mary than others.
00:25:42.080
And, but sometimes you'll hear, say, well, don't you know, she's the mother of God.
00:25:45.100
I mean, don't you think you should, you should show respect to your, your degenerate friend, Billy Bob.
00:25:49.840
Shouldn't you be nice to the mother of our Lord?
00:25:51.620
And, and they say, well, she's, she's the mother of Jesus, not the mother of God.
00:25:57.940
That was what they thought about at the Council of Ephesus.
00:26:09.540
But the church said, no, she's properly called Theotokos, bearer of God.
00:26:14.400
So that, no, it's making an important Christological point.
00:26:16.780
If you believe in the divinity of Jesus, right?
00:26:20.840
Well, then she has to be called mother of God, as sort of surprising as that title might be.
00:26:34.180
I say to my Protestant friends, Mary says, you know, from this day, all generations will call me blessed.
00:26:40.000
Well, that's the biblical witness that she's predicting, encouraging.
00:26:49.900
If we can't even resolve debates from the Council of Ephesus, for goodness sakes, how are we going to get to the modern stuff?
00:26:55.000
You know, we got to, all right, we figured that one out.
00:27:02.920
Like, you can't say, let's go back behind Chalcedon.
00:27:05.460
Maybe Jesus wasn't the hypostatic union of two natures and one person.
00:27:10.260
You can further amplify it and deepen it, but you have to say that.
00:27:13.740
So, Mary, the mother of God, that's settled Christian doctrine.
00:27:19.920
Luther's got very strong things to say about Mary.
00:27:23.860
No, I think I'm noticing even in this moment of the culture we're in where a lot of people are becoming Catholic, a little bit Eastern Orthodox too, but a lot of Catholic.
00:27:30.840
I've noticed even many of my pretty hardcore Protestant Reformed friends are coming to realize that there's something to venerating the mother of God.
00:27:44.300
Didn't he just say something nice about, you know, the importance of venerating Mary?
00:27:48.000
But, again, that's a deeply ancient Christian practice, and it's grounded in people like Luther.
00:27:53.820
And I'm not sure about Calvin and Mary, but Luther certainly had strong things to say about Mary.
00:27:59.280
I don't point to the Protestant revolutionaries most of the time, but if they back up the point I'm trying to make, I do cite them.
00:28:08.080
Another hotly debated topic is the Vatican's top 45 films.
00:28:14.060
Which of these films was not officially screened or included on the Vatican's list of 45 important films?
00:28:38.940
It'd be kind of weird if that were the only one they didn't include.
00:28:41.440
You know, they put the Godfather, they put a mob movie on there, but they don't, hmm.
00:29:00.920
It's not, it's just that Schindler's List is not, it's just, I'm not saying it's like a terrible movie.
00:29:05.720
It's just, to me, it doesn't rise to the level of greatness of A Godfather or, or.
00:29:15.000
And I, I think I remembered Schindler's List being on it.
00:29:22.720
He says it totally misunderstands the whole, the entirety of the war.
00:29:26.080
I think, I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I just did.
00:29:39.000
Which artist designed the grand colonnade that surrounds St. Peter's Square?
00:30:07.900
Its own telescope and its astronomical observatory.
00:30:35.920
That's what I had, the observatory, which is out of Castle Gandolfo.
00:30:39.540
It's not at the Vatican, but it's considered Vatican territory.
00:30:45.980
Isn't it in, like, Phoenix, like the actual telescopes in Phoenix?
00:30:48.040
Well, there's one in Phoenix, too, or outside of Tucson, but the big ones are Castle Gandolfo.
00:30:56.540
I've said I've been to the Vatican, I don't know, three times.
00:30:59.040
Maybe I never got the Vatican quarter pounder, the Vatican, the big vet.
00:31:04.720
I thought the spa might throw you off, but, and you're such a big Starbucks fan.
00:31:12.840
Can the Vatican's telescope see the Apollo mission equipment on the moon?
00:31:19.020
The Apollo, oh, like the remnants of the Apollo?
00:31:36.780
I'm going to say it was false, but I can't see that.
00:31:43.600
Even Earth's most powerful telescopes can't resolve that small amount.
00:31:46.660
I was trying to imagine a telescope being able to see to that degree.
00:32:00.520
All right, what is the name of this building inside Vatican City?
00:32:07.680
I hope that someday the name will be the former building that stood on this location when it's
00:32:14.580
This is one of the more modern buildings, which is always Michael's favorite.
00:32:20.620
It's known for its modern design and massive seating capacity.
00:32:24.940
I don't think I'm at any risk of becoming Pope, but if I ever do, that will be known
00:32:40.580
But I would then have to have holy orders, wouldn't I?
00:32:51.840
I'd say, okay, you go to Rome, Mike, you'll see you.
00:33:03.040
I spent two months there, the Synod, the last two Octobers.
00:33:06.300
I spent six days a week, eight hours a day in that hall.
00:33:14.880
You know, I'm not asking you to tell tales out of school or anything, Your Excellency,
00:33:18.600
but there's a lot of great art and architecture in the history of the Catholic Church.
00:33:23.680
I don't think that the Paul VI Audience Hall makes the first 2,000 buildings list.
00:33:30.380
It was of its time, you know, like Paul VI himself was a devotee of modern art and thought,
00:33:38.360
And he knew people like Jacques Maritain who very much appreciated like, you know, George
00:33:44.180
So he did have, I think, he had good taste in modern art, but that was so much of its
00:33:49.960
time where it looks like, you know, something from the space age.
00:33:56.280
And I don't like the kind of metallic sculpture behind where the Pope sits.
00:34:03.780
To me, the good taste in modern art is kind of like being the best basketball player among
00:34:12.880
No, I think some of – like go to the east wing of the National Gallery in Washington,
00:34:16.640
you'll see some of like the early Picassos like from the 1920s.
00:34:23.240
But, yeah, that hall to me does not speak the best of the Catholic artistic tradition.
00:34:29.380
The most diplomatic phrase I've ever heard in my life.
00:34:37.600
Roughly how many works of art are housed in the Vatican Museum collection?
00:34:53.180
I said Aleph Nall, accountably infinite number of works of art.
00:35:18.460
So if it's closest without going over, then both a million and countable infinity are –
00:35:29.760
So, Michael, would you please give us a 30-second commercial report?
00:35:33.000
You used to do a thing, Ben, where you'd say whoever won, you'd say you could double or
00:35:39.040
I don't think there's any chance that Bishop Barron would want to gamble away.
00:35:46.860
This is the greatest victory we've ever had on Face Off.
00:35:56.140
I might have automatically become a Lutheran because of that.
00:36:00.340
I got to – oh, man, I got to put in a little work next time.
00:36:03.540
Well, in any case, I can very sincerely say that you should all – well, you should go
00:36:09.080
to church, and you should avail yourself of the sacraments, and that's Bishop Barron's
00:36:20.020
All of the lectures, all of the series, all of the books, the Word on Fire Bible is wonderful.
00:36:25.580
I have editions of it with the epistles and with the gospels in my home, and so you should
00:36:37.180
I don't – all I do is this, and somehow Bishop Barron manages to produce more content,
00:36:42.260
marvelously compelling content, and also manages to do his day job as well, which is very
00:36:53.480
I do have – you know, I have a picture of it somewhere on my bookshelf.
00:36:58.240
I have certain little, you know, icons and relics and things, and I've got the Word on
00:37:08.880
If you haven't already, go follow Bishop Robert Barron at Bishop Barron, and subscribe
00:37:12.980
to the Word on Fire show, and don't forget to grab a copy of What Christians Believe,
00:37:17.620
Understanding the Nicene Creed, available wherever books are sold.
00:37:21.680
Let us know who you'd like to have on next, and what topic to cover in the next episode