The Michael Knowles Show - Would You Be Catholic or Protestant？

00:00:00.000 These are questions that take cultures thousands of years to answer.

00:00:04.740 During Answer the Call, I take questions from people just like you

00:00:07.920 about their problems, opportunities, challenges, or when they simply need advice.

00:00:12.700 How do I balance all of this grief, responsibility?

00:00:15.800 How do you repair this kind of damage?

00:00:18.080 My daughter, Michaela, guides the conversations

00:00:20.540 as we hopefully help people navigate their lives.

00:00:24.080 Everyone has their own destiny. Everyone.

00:00:30.000 Would you lean Catholic over Protestant?

00:00:35.260 Very, very good question.

00:00:36.540 It's very spicy.

00:00:37.280 I actually know the answer. I don't know if you know the answer to this,

00:00:39.980 but I do know the answer to this.

00:00:41.080 I would be shocked if you had any other answer.

00:00:42.960 It's an obvious answer.

00:00:44.220 I know you think it's an obvious answer.

00:00:45.700 Welcome to Yes or No,

00:01:00.960 the bibulous battle to discover who knows whom better.

00:01:04.640 My guest today is Ben Shapiro.

00:01:06.680 How do we play?

00:01:07.800 I'll ask Ben a yes or no question.

00:01:10.140 He will select his answer away from my prying eyes.

00:01:13.020 Then I'll guess how he answered.

00:01:15.600 If you have a question,

00:01:15.700 If I guess correctly, I get a point.

00:01:18.020 If I guess incorrectly, I lose a point.

00:01:20.560 No matter what, I'll probably drink.

00:01:23.140 Then it's Ben's turn.

00:01:24.920 Neither of us have seen the questions beforehand.

00:01:27.140 Whoever has the most points at the end wins.

00:01:29.500 The stakes could be higher.

00:01:33.060 You know, the stakes for America are also high,

00:01:35.200 which is why you need to get Ben's new book,

00:01:38.980 Lions and Scavengers,

00:01:40.440 The True Story of America.

00:01:42.580 Pre-order it right now.

00:01:44.580 Ben,

00:01:46.900 thank you for coming to my show

00:01:49.680 in your soundstage.

00:01:51.460 I mean, this is magical.

00:01:52.600 It's pretty cool, huh?

00:01:53.680 It is pretty awesome.

00:01:55.020 Since the last time you were on,

00:01:56.120 we've kind of raised the rent a little bit.

00:01:57.580 Yeah, you definitely have.

00:01:58.820 So we're spending even more money.

00:01:59.860 I didn't think it was possible.

00:02:02.440 Now we have moving lights.

00:02:04.040 Now, I have to ask, what are you drinking?

00:02:06.220 I don't know.

00:02:06.840 Whatever they gave me.

00:02:07.880 This, because there was a debate.

00:02:10.060 Apple juice, apparently.

00:02:10.840 I'll let people in on it.

00:02:12.200 It's a little early.

00:02:12.900 It's the morning.

00:02:13.540 Yes.

00:02:14.060 And so I said, I'll have a martini,

00:02:16.640 a dry, a little dirty blue cheese olives.

00:02:20.200 Breakfast of champions.

00:02:21.800 But apparently, I think they gave you

00:02:24.100 a non-alcoholic drink.

00:02:25.440 Did they?

00:02:25.980 I don't know.

00:02:27.580 Or is it the whiskey?

00:02:28.640 I told them to give you the whiskey.

00:02:30.500 That's whiskey.

00:02:31.220 Is it?

00:02:31.640 Yeah.

00:02:32.260 All right.

00:02:32.800 There we go.

00:02:33.260 All right.

00:02:33.560 I'm glad to hear that.

00:02:34.860 It's kosher.

00:02:35.480 It's kosher.

00:02:36.240 Do you know the rules?

00:02:37.480 I think so.

00:02:38.720 I don't.

00:02:39.260 But I'll go first.

00:02:41.620 Okay.

00:02:47.820 If I were running for president of the United States,

00:02:50.640 would I need to kiss the wall?

00:02:53.880 Do I have to?

00:02:56.300 Wow.

00:02:56.820 That's a very realistic.

00:02:58.640 The AI has gotten good.

00:03:00.120 Professor Jacob, your co-religionist,

00:03:03.300 made this up on AI the other day and showed it.

00:03:05.480 This is not my first time seeing this picture.

00:03:07.360 But the question is a serious one.

00:03:09.580 In both parties, people go to the wall in Jerusalem.

00:03:12.020 Yes.

00:03:12.480 If I were running, would I need to kiss the wall?

00:03:14.380 I have to.

00:03:15.080 You have to get.

00:03:15.980 I'm going to answer it,

00:03:16.740 and then I think you have to guess what I would say.

00:03:17.740 Yes.

00:03:18.020 Okay.

00:03:18.360 Okay.

00:03:18.500 You ready?

00:03:21.320 Okay.

00:03:22.420 What does Ben think?

00:03:23.960 That you would have to do.

00:03:24.840 Yes.

00:03:26.120 I can see Shapiro-esque arguments for both answers here.

00:03:31.180 You would say.

00:03:35.840 No.

00:03:36.860 No.

00:03:37.300 I would not have to.

00:03:38.300 Yes.

00:03:38.560 You would not have to.

00:03:39.260 Because I'm Catholic.

00:03:40.400 Right.

00:03:40.800 If I were evangelical, I would.

00:03:42.060 If you're Jewish, no one has to kiss the wall.

00:03:44.520 It's ridiculous.

00:03:45.000 It's not even like a Jewish thing.

00:03:46.220 I was trying to explain this to someone.

00:03:47.780 People do if they want to,

00:03:48.820 but it's not like a commandment to go kiss.

00:03:50.820 It's not even a commandment to visit the wall,

00:03:52.360 and certainly for non-Jews.

00:03:53.760 I've said this to Ted Cruz.

00:03:55.140 All these people, they'll come to synagogues.

00:03:57.160 But I'll put it on yarmulke on.

00:03:58.800 I'm like, why?

00:03:59.960 You're not Jewish.

00:04:00.460 I don't care.

00:04:00.940 I think he would have to kiss the wall.

00:04:02.460 I think for evangelical Protestants or Baptists,

00:04:07.060 I think it plays very well to kiss the wall.

00:04:09.840 Because it largely came out of evangelical movements in the 20th century.

00:04:14.140 Whereas for Catholics, that's not like a traditional thing to do.

00:04:17.560 You go to the Holy Sepulcher.

00:04:18.800 You go to all these different places.

00:04:20.140 But I tried to explain this to someone.

00:04:21.880 I was like, because people say that you kiss the wall basically

00:04:24.900 because the Jews force you to.

00:04:26.360 I was like, the reason American politicians have started kissing that wall

00:04:30.520 or praying at the wall or whatever, I think, I don't know,

00:04:33.700 maybe you tell me if the Assad has any other view.

00:04:37.480 It seems to me the reason is because evangelical Protestants

00:04:41.860 have played a huge role in American politics in both parties,

00:04:44.460 especially in the Republican Party,

00:04:45.600 and they tend to be into that religious ritual.

00:04:50.440 And so I think it's more playing to them than it is playing to Jews.

00:04:54.060 Well, I mean, I think that's certainly true.

00:04:56.080 I also think that it has to do with, I would assume, biblical solidarity,

00:05:01.440 meaning like Jesus clearly, I mean, this is the temple that Jesus was talking about.

00:05:06.960 And so it's not that Jesus was a big fan of the temple,

00:05:09.920 but it is the idea that Jesus was actually, well, he was an observant Jew.

00:05:14.760 I mean, like, it does talk in the New Testament about Jesus, you know,

00:05:17.340 being a Jew and doing Jewish things and such.

00:05:19.460 And so, like, that whole area, these are areas where Jesus legitimately walked.

00:05:23.600 Yeah, yeah.

00:05:23.820 You can walk up, I believe, in September,

00:05:26.200 they're going to open up the pilgrimage road that goes down from the Siloam Pool

00:05:28.900 all the way up to the temple and to the Western Wall area.

00:05:33.240 And, like, you can see the stones where Jesus walked.

00:05:35.620 You can see where he was standing and yelling at people about the money lenders

00:05:37.720 and the temple and all this kind of stuff.

00:05:39.160 So I think as sort of a, this is connected, this is like an area that Jesus was.

00:05:44.020 I think that's probably why evangelicals are doing that sort of thing.

00:05:46.680 But from a Jewish perspective, as you know, we've known each other a long time.

00:05:49.740 I don't care.

00:05:51.520 Like, politicians come to shul, and again, they'll put on the keep.

00:05:54.340 I'm like, why?

00:05:55.820 You're not Jewish.

00:05:58.380 It's fine.

00:05:59.040 You can wear a Yankee hat.

00:05:59.900 Right, exactly.

00:06:00.960 For me, what I would prefer, strimal.

00:06:04.660 Well, I mean, that's pretty slick, right?

00:06:06.500 I mean, if you're going to go, like, the old school Polish garb from 1750,

00:06:10.500 Polish nobility, that's where it came from, then you should totally do that.

00:06:13.680 They're great.

00:06:14.100 I'm too cheap for them, though.

00:06:15.220 Apparently, I've heard they're very expensive.

00:06:17.180 But for all the anti-Semites in the audience,

00:06:18.900 actually what we mandate is that you wear, like, fully the side lock.

00:06:22.680 And also you have to have a radio near the Western Wall to shut it all down.

00:06:25.560 You do.

00:06:26.180 That's actually where they tell you, all right, he's coming.

00:06:28.220 He's coming.

00:06:28.620 He can be president now.

00:06:29.600 He can, okay.

00:06:30.260 You're up.

00:06:31.040 Okay.

00:06:32.160 A clear answer.

00:06:33.860 Okay.

00:06:34.920 Do you, Michael Knowles, have dual loyalty to the Vatican?

00:06:43.660 I'm warning you so you don't think that I'm cheating.

00:06:47.700 This answer goes down about, like, three levels.

00:06:50.300 I know.

00:06:50.680 I actually think I know what the answer is going to be here.

00:06:53.040 Okay.

00:06:53.360 Okay.

00:06:54.060 Go ahead.

00:06:58.500 Okay.

00:06:58.980 Correct.

00:06:59.360 Why?

00:06:59.940 Because you have sole loyalty to the Vatican.

00:07:02.900 That's, like, the second level of it.

00:07:07.080 So, I would say, if not for an unfortunate event in history, well, a few unfortunate events.

00:07:13.760 They concluded with the Lateran Treaty.

00:07:15.180 But one of them was this event that began with this awful man, Garibaldi, who stole a lot of land from the church and from the Pope.

00:07:22.180 And all these problems in the 19th and into the 20th centuries.

00:07:25.860 There could be real territory.

00:07:27.800 Now, I'm still, you know, I'm still an American.

00:07:29.860 None of my family, they all came from either North Africa, also known as Sicily, or from England and Ireland.

00:07:34.840 But if the Vatican had, you know, the papal zoaves with that great uniform and a sword and whatever, and I could go, I don't know, like, slay Saracens or Lombards or something, we're cool.

00:07:47.400 I'm in.

00:07:47.700 But the reason I would say no, I don't have dual loyalty, is because the loyalty to the Vatican as presently constituted, which is about half a square mile of a space, and to the United States are loyalties of a different kind.

00:08:02.780 So, one is a national loyalty, one is a spiritual loyalty.

00:08:05.480 Just like my loyalty to the Yankees is of a different kind than my loyalty to, well, I have no loyalty to Ben Davies, but to someone on my producing team.

00:08:11.700 Yes.

00:08:12.280 That is the reason why, but if they reconstituted the Vatican's army.

00:08:19.220 No, no.

00:08:19.880 I don't know.

00:08:20.640 I don't know that they put on a great show.

00:08:21.820 I mean, honestly, when I said that, I was kind of half-joking, but not totally.

00:08:25.720 And the reason I'm saying that is because of what you're saying, which is we have a very dumbed-down conversation about the nature of identity.

00:08:31.940 Yes.

00:08:32.260 And the truth is that everybody has layers of identity, right?

00:08:34.500 So, like, for me on a personal level, I have an identity as a Jew, meaning, like, that's my religious adherence.

00:08:39.620 And then I have an identity as a father and a husband, and then I have an identity as an American.

00:08:45.160 And the idea is that these do not conflict.

00:08:47.420 I can be a good American and also be a good Jew and also be a good dad, and hopefully all three of those things not only don't conflict but actually buttress one another.

00:08:54.680 And so, me saying that you have, like, soul loyalty, that's like saying, if you ask literally any Christian in America, are you a Christian first or are you an American first?

00:09:02.240 They'd always say Christian.

00:09:02.920 They would say Christian because, of course, that's the answer.

00:09:04.660 Yeah, yeah.

00:09:04.860 Of course, that's the answer.

00:09:05.400 And the fact that that's somehow become, like, radically controversial in some way is because people make gigantic category errors about this particular question.

00:09:12.080 Yeah, yeah, of course.

00:09:12.820 So, I'm not insulted by that at all or I don't find it troublesome.

00:09:15.400 Like, it's bizarre to even think that way.

00:09:18.720 But I think it's become kind of a trope that's designed to, you know, create conflicts where none ought it.

00:09:23.900 It's not usually directed at my religious group.

00:09:27.160 Well, it was.

00:09:27.760 It was in the 19th century.

00:09:28.900 Like, for actually a huge percentage of our politics from about 1830 to probably 1960 was about this, right?

00:09:36.820 I mean, this was a major issue in the JFK campaign in 1960.

00:09:39.200 I think Schlesinger said that anti-Catholicism was the deepest prejudice in America.

00:09:43.460 Not that I always quote Schlesinger, but that was a reality.

00:09:47.320 It was a real thing.

00:09:48.120 I mean, watch Gangs of New York, right?

00:09:49.300 I mean, like, this is a real thing.

00:09:50.280 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:09:51.060 But it is funny because this is kind of what pluralism is, you know, which pluralism can be taken to too great an extreme.

00:09:59.740 But it's like, obviously, there are different identity, layers of identity.

00:10:05.280 But this is, you know, whenever we talk, the Westphalian system has to come up at some point, obviously.

00:10:11.040 Of course.

00:10:11.440 I mean, we're going here.

00:10:12.620 It has to come up.

00:10:13.280 We're like seven minutes in.

00:10:14.080 Yes, yes.

00:10:14.580 But this is one of the problems.

00:10:16.780 This is one of the many problems with the modern system of nation states.

00:10:21.440 Is it, oh, it just complicates everything.

00:10:24.260 Even the very notion of cuyus regio eus religio, you know, whose reign, his religion.

00:10:29.100 It just, it makes, am I a nationalist?

00:10:32.800 Like, kind of.

00:10:34.400 I also think empire is fine.

00:10:36.440 I also think it's not, like, nation matters, but it's not the be-all and end-all of my identity.

00:10:43.760 Right, and it matters in one context and not in another.

00:10:46.440 Yes.

00:10:46.760 Like, I don't think the king has the right to declare religious truth.

00:10:50.640 I don't think that's real.

00:10:51.560 That was a consequence of the end of the religious wars.

00:10:54.760 But, like, I don't know, most kings can barely articulate political truths.

00:10:58.940 And this actually is the fundamental basis of the United States Constitution in many ways,

00:11:02.900 which is that the king does not have the power to declare religious truth.

00:11:05.900 Now there were many states that had instituted religions, but not at the federal level, right?

00:11:09.100 Yeah.

00:11:09.800 Anyway.

00:11:10.260 Yeah, that's pretty, okay.

00:11:10.960 Hold on one second.

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00:12:16.240 We went deep on that one.

00:12:17.240 That was good.

00:12:17.760 I know.

00:12:18.200 That was, Mr. Davies is thrilled.

00:12:19.860 Because at this rate, this episode will only be seven hours long, so that'll be right.

00:12:23.280 Okay.

00:12:24.580 Did you have, did you have a pleasant experience on Surrounded?

00:12:30.340 There are also like, I can think of like five different ways that you can do it.

00:12:33.520 Yeah.

00:12:37.420 I think you would say it was pleasant enough.

00:12:44.660 Yes.

00:12:45.200 That's right.

00:12:45.740 Pleasant enough is a good description.

00:12:47.220 I mean, it was rather variable.

00:12:50.160 Being screamed at for like seven solid minutes by a trans person was not the most pleasant

00:12:55.640 thing I've experienced.

00:12:57.020 It was definitely, and at a certain point I was like, okay, I'm just going to sit here

00:13:00.000 and this person's going to yell at me.

00:13:01.320 And I was amused by the fact that nobody would raise the red flag when the person was, like,

00:13:06.200 it was the most boring thing in the world.

00:13:07.680 And they're all like so intimidated by the idea that this person's identity is sacrosanct.

00:13:11.560 I must not raise the red flag under any.

00:13:13.920 That's true.

00:13:14.580 Wow.

00:13:14.840 That gives them an advantage even in the game of Surrounded.

00:13:17.620 Yes.

00:13:17.880 It's like, well, I can't silence.

00:13:18.980 I can't tell this trans person to sit down and shut up even though she's saying nothing.

00:13:23.020 Yeah.

00:13:23.180 But yeah.

00:13:24.060 And so that was kind of unpleasant.

00:13:26.940 But overall, I thought it was pleasant.

00:13:28.900 And afterward, a bunch of the people who had been arguing with me kind of came up and wanted

00:13:33.480 to snap selfies and were kind of fans.

00:13:35.100 Yeah.

00:13:35.260 And so that, you know, you were on it.

00:13:37.060 What was your experience?

00:13:37.940 I quite enjoyed it.

00:13:39.120 But I don't know.

00:13:41.080 It wasn't a day at the beach, you know.

00:13:42.680 Right.

00:13:42.880 It wasn't, like, walking around the Parthenon or something.

00:13:46.120 But it was pleasant in as much as there were some moments where I felt like I was actually

00:13:53.200 talking to someone.

00:13:54.120 Yes.

00:13:54.620 There weren't many of them, but there were a few moments.

00:13:56.640 This is right.

00:13:57.200 You know, the funniest thing about that show, and this I did find delightful, there was

00:14:00.660 one kid on there.

00:14:01.620 He was the kid at the top who was, he was actually raised a traditionalist Catholic.

00:14:05.300 He's kind of fallen away for now, but he'll come back.

00:14:07.700 And, but he, very left-wing and all this stuff, very pro-LGBT.

00:14:12.800 But I was sitting there, and he was starting to ask good questions.

00:14:16.860 He was starting to go from angles of the natural law, and he was kind, he was a little clumsy

00:14:21.780 about it, but he was starting to get into a decent conversation.

00:14:25.540 So, of course, they voted him off immediately.

00:14:27.040 Yeah, exactly.

00:14:27.560 He was like, enough of this.

00:14:28.860 We need some giant maniac to yell at you.

00:14:31.340 Yeah, exactly.

00:14:31.840 So, yeah, I enjoyed it.

00:14:33.260 The funny thing with that show, though, is it, I get a kick out of that environment.

00:14:38.680 Some people have not done well on that show, and you did well on the show, but I've noticed,

00:14:44.420 without naming names, some people have had a tough time, because you can win for two

00:14:49.720 hours of that show.

00:14:50.760 If the show is two hours and two minutes long, you can win two hours of it.

00:14:54.220 If you flub for two seconds.

00:14:56.840 It's very high pressure.

00:14:57.700 It's very high pressure.

00:14:58.400 You lose, you look crazy.

00:14:59.900 You look terrible.

00:15:00.260 Because it all gets clipped.

00:15:01.060 It's all about the clips that come out from the thing, for sure.

00:15:03.900 And that is very, you know, it's not as though the arguments that are being made are stellar

00:15:08.600 most of the time.

00:15:09.300 Most of them are pretty terrible.

00:15:10.580 But you're right.

00:15:11.880 But that's now kind of the name of the game on the internet.

00:15:14.360 And so, if you do any sort of long-form thing, the chances that if you screw up for 30 seconds,

00:15:19.580 that ends up as like the featured thing on Twitter that day is very, very high.

00:15:22.540 That's high stakes.

00:15:23.220 Yeah.

00:15:23.520 All right, you're up.

00:15:24.020 All right, here we go.

00:15:24.560 Would banning TikTok save more lives than banning fentanyl?

00:15:38.080 Oh, wow.

00:15:38.980 Okay.

00:15:39.560 Okay.

00:15:39.980 I would be tempted to because...

00:15:42.560 It depends how trolly you were being that day.

00:15:44.120 No, it's sort of like you could, do you mean save their body?

00:15:48.000 Do you mean save their soul?

00:15:49.000 Right.

00:15:49.320 That's kind of where I was thinking you were going to go.

00:15:50.820 And I do think that that TikTok is more rot for your soul for a larger number of people

00:15:57.740 than fentanyl.

00:15:59.840 But...

00:16:00.240 Fentanyl is killing 100,000 people a year.

00:16:01.840 Yes.

00:16:02.280 Yeah, I mean, it's a lot of people, but TikTok is poisoning more people at a spiritual level

00:16:07.200 and just an intellectual level.

00:16:07.960 By the tens of millions, yes.

00:16:09.100 Yes.

00:16:09.620 The difference is if we ban TikTok, they would just go to Instagram Reels or they would just

00:16:15.420 go to Twitter Reels or they would just...

00:16:17.460 And maybe that's not quite as poisonous as TikTok is.

00:16:20.820 But it does rot your brain.

00:16:22.320 Okay, fine.

00:16:22.900 So I actually disagree with this and I'll tell you why I disagree with this.

00:16:25.440 Because if you...

00:16:27.320 So first of all, fentanyl is already banned.

00:16:29.000 Yes.

00:16:29.320 Right?

00:16:29.500 I mean, it's not as though you can just go down to your local corner store and pick up

00:16:32.860 fentanyl.

00:16:33.140 So they banned fentanyl already.

00:16:35.020 And so banning fentanyl would not save additional lives at this point because it's already banned.

00:16:38.360 Banning TikTok...

00:16:39.460 Actually, there's a delta.

00:16:40.460 So TikTok's algorithm is tremendously good.

00:16:43.600 Like very, very good at featuring virality and maximizing for virality.

00:16:47.600 And it's run by the Chinese communist government.

00:16:49.060 And so even if you were to say that, you know, people are going to game the system, they'll

00:16:53.420 go to X or they'll go to Instagram.

00:16:55.360 First of all, Instagram does have better controls and they're not run by the Chinese government.

00:16:59.380 And two, X is kind of a shit show at this point.

00:17:01.780 So, you know, like it's just kind of a lot of everything all over.

00:17:04.660 And you see people who are gaming the system there for sure.

00:17:06.700 There's a lot of bots.

00:17:07.500 There's a lot of foreign governments that are messing around on X.

00:17:09.560 I wrote a whole book about how conservatives need to get on the bandwagon of restricting

00:17:14.640 speech in a proper and civilized way.

00:17:16.480 And it completely went out the window.

00:17:18.600 You were a prophet ahead of your time.

00:17:19.640 I was a prophet ahead of my time.

00:17:21.220 I know.

00:17:21.660 I know.

00:17:22.220 So, right.

00:17:23.160 And that's an interesting way to read the question, which is banning TikTok would save

00:17:27.380 more lives than banning fentanyl.

00:17:29.660 Well, if it saves one additional life.

00:17:31.720 Right.

00:17:31.900 Exactly.

00:17:32.060 There's no delta.

00:17:32.660 Okay.

00:17:33.120 All right.

00:17:33.400 That's fair.

00:17:33.840 That's fair.

00:17:36.300 With the hire of Isabel Brown, it seems that you may be Christian curious.

00:17:40.740 If so, would you lean Catholic over Protestant?

00:17:45.840 Oh, very, very good question.

00:17:47.680 Spicy.

00:17:48.220 It's very spicy.

00:17:49.420 I know.

00:17:50.960 I actually know the answer.

00:17:52.120 I don't know if you know the answer to this, but I do know the answer to this.

00:17:54.780 I would be shocked if you had any other answer.

00:17:56.660 Yes.

00:17:57.000 But, um.

00:17:58.920 No, there are some people.

00:18:00.560 Well, I'm not going to give away mine.

00:18:03.660 I'll just let you answer first.

00:18:06.780 It's an obvious answer.

00:18:08.720 I know you think it's an obvious answer.

00:18:11.920 Okay.

00:18:13.380 I understand all of the problems for the obvious, but yes, Catholic.

00:18:18.880 So.

00:18:19.400 Eh?

00:18:19.680 No, give me a break.

00:18:20.600 I'll tell you.

00:18:20.920 Give me a break.

00:18:21.700 That is coke.

00:18:22.480 That is coke.

00:18:23.240 That is total coke.

00:18:24.020 Okay, I'll tell you why.

00:18:25.220 Okay, so, in order for me to become a Christian, the central pitch of Christianity to me would

00:18:33.020 be getting rid of all of the rituals, right?

00:18:35.680 I mean, that's like the central pitch, right?

00:18:37.720 You're saying you'd want to mix it up.

00:18:39.260 You've got to mix it up.

00:18:39.800 Yeah, man.

00:18:40.160 I mean, like, if, like, I do more ritual than you, right?

00:18:43.860 I'm like, as Jewish as it's possible to be, almost.

00:18:46.400 Yeah.

00:18:46.540 And what that means is that if the, and I've said this before, Catholicism is more similar

00:18:52.340 to Judaism than Protestantism.

00:18:54.220 Yes.

00:18:54.400 By far.

00:18:54.760 There's no question.

00:18:55.360 Because Catholicism, as I've said to Bishop Barron, backfilled all of the ritual by basically

00:19:00.400 saying, faith will save you, not works.

00:19:02.700 But also, it turns out that if you think that that is, like, a practical way of governing,

00:19:07.020 it turns out that you need hierarchy and actual works.

00:19:08.680 And, like, let's give some, you know, credence to James here, who says, like, you are justified

00:19:15.000 not by faith alone.

00:19:17.180 Right.

00:19:17.320 You are justified by works, not by faith alone.

00:19:18.840 And so, Paul, Paul also complements that by writing a lot about faith.

00:19:22.400 But it is, there's a lot of stuff you do.

00:19:25.560 There's a lot of doing stuff.

00:19:26.360 100%.

00:19:26.760 So, it turns out that, like, the actual practical life of a Catholic is much more similar to the

00:19:30.680 practical life of a Jew than Protestantism.

00:19:33.360 So, the, so, I guess the question is, on what basis?

00:19:36.460 So, first of all, let's just acknowledge the obvious.

00:19:38.680 Whichever Christian converts me gets a million heaven points.

00:19:40.680 And we all understand this, right?

00:19:41.860 Like, this is, and honestly, I'm very flattered by all the people who want to convert me and

00:19:45.540 care enough about my soul that they wish me to be saved.

00:19:47.400 That's, like, really, that's very nice of you.

00:19:48.900 I was at the Napa.

00:19:49.380 I'm not insulted by it at all.

00:19:50.380 I don't find it a problem.

00:19:51.660 I was at the Napa conference.

00:19:53.340 It was, I don't know if this is Tales at a School or whatever.

00:19:55.820 It's a big Catholic conference.

00:19:56.740 And I was, anyway, I was speaking into a room, and some people were saying, like, hey, some

00:19:59.460 of our favorite guys, you, Charlie Kirk, you know, Protestants, you know, how close

00:20:05.240 are they, whatever.

00:20:05.900 I said, well, look, it would be tough for Ben.

00:20:09.840 It would be tough for Ben for a number of reasons.

00:20:12.520 It's like, but, I am, you're, that's such a fake answer.

00:20:15.900 Because, like, the thing is, if you converted, you would not just convert because you got

00:20:19.980 sick of doing the rapping.

00:20:21.560 Rapping, yeah.

00:20:22.100 Yeah, you wouldn't do it because you got sick of Shabbat, which is, Shabbat's actually

00:20:25.180 a very nice ritual to do.

00:20:26.560 It's not, it's not because you would have gotten sick of fasting.

00:20:28.760 Right, so this is, it's not, you would do it because you would be convinced that the

00:20:33.020 most Jewish thing to be would be Christian.

00:20:35.560 Right.

00:20:35.740 And if you were, okay, that's a totally fair, that's a totally fair argument.

00:20:38.880 Honestly, it's a totally fair argument.

00:20:40.060 And so, that's what I was going to say, is, if you believe that I was going to convert

00:20:43.280 because I was actively attracted by the story of Jesus and his divinity, then I would probably

00:20:49.640 end up Catholic.

00:20:50.140 You have to.

00:20:50.960 Give me that point.

00:20:52.060 I want that point.

00:20:52.780 Okay.

00:20:53.400 If, however, I were to convert because I just got sick of the Jewishness of it, I'd go Protestant.

00:20:59.180 Because, honestly, like, you guys do a lot of stuff.

00:21:03.340 It's a lot.

00:21:04.040 It's a lot.

00:21:04.560 But, yeah, but you are right, Catholic, listen, both the Pope and I wear keepas, you can see

00:21:08.520 the picture of us, his keepa's bigger than mine.

00:21:10.880 Right?

00:21:11.580 That, that picture was so wholesome.

00:21:15.880 It was great.

00:21:16.280 It was this sweet, you're giving, you're meeting the Pope, you're like, you know, Forrest Gump

00:21:20.460 or something.

00:21:20.860 Yeah, exactly.

00:21:21.860 And you're like, you're standing there meeting the Pope, and then you hand him a, it was

00:21:26.020 a signed White Sox baseball?

00:21:26.760 A signed, I mean, I'm a White Sox fan, so I had in my collection a signed 2005 World Series

00:21:30.820 baseball, and I said to him, you know, your holiness, you're Catholic, I'm Jewish, but

00:21:35.600 the one miracle we can both agree on is the 2005 White Sox winning the World Series.

00:21:39.340 And he laughed, he thought it was funny.

00:21:40.800 It was funny, I presented it to him, and he goes, is it for me?

00:21:44.340 I was like, well, yeah, I mean, I'm not bringing it here just to show it to you.

00:21:47.380 It's not show and tell.

00:21:48.060 Check out my, look what I had, you know?

00:21:51.520 Someone said to me, Michael, how is it that your Jewish colleague gets to meet the Pope

00:21:56.160 before the Catholic one does?

00:21:58.080 I said, well, they have, look, the Pope and I have a lot in common.

00:22:01.820 You do.

00:22:02.420 I said, but the Pope and Ben have a very, very deep connection.

00:22:07.340 The White Sox connection is carried by few.

00:22:09.760 It's a burden carried by few.

00:22:10.860 It is a true suffering experience, maybe sanctifying, I don't know.

00:22:15.820 Yeah, that's pretty good.

00:22:18.560 Now, okay, my final point, look, you're going to take the point away from me, it's fine.

00:22:22.500 But my final point on this is, okay, I get it.

00:22:24.900 One day you say, okay, I've had enough of the rituals, I want to, you're telling me Ben

00:22:30.920 Shapiro is going to, just in order to get out of the rituals, you're going to go show

00:22:35.920 up to the big auditorium with the smoke machines and the electric guitars and the...

00:22:41.380 You're going to, I'm going to see Ben Shapiro in that audience?

00:22:44.400 I mean, I wasn't aware that that's all Protestantism was.

00:22:47.560 Well, no, but if you...

00:22:48.420 That's a particular type of Protestantism, correct?

00:22:49.940 If you become Episcopalian, that's just twice the liturgy, half the guilt of the Catholics.

00:22:53.800 So now you're kind of right back where you were.

00:22:55.480 I'm not, I mean, Episcopalian's a whole different thing.

00:22:58.860 I wonder if that bishopress from the National Prayer Service would love to meet you.

00:23:02.040 I don't know, she's...

00:23:03.880 I don't know, she hasn't answered my calls.

00:23:06.060 Okay, you're up.

00:23:07.580 I need to drink.

00:23:08.400 Okay, fine.

00:23:09.020 Davey's in my ear, I have to drink.

00:23:10.600 Okay, fine.

00:23:11.500 The good news is, when you lose, you drink, so that's nice.

00:23:13.960 When I went, I was already drinking when I wanted to.

00:23:15.560 Yeah, that's true.

00:23:16.260 Okay.

00:23:16.480 All right, it's almost, it's five o'clock in India.

00:23:19.940 You're going to like this one.

00:23:22.660 You ready?

00:23:24.800 Is it more likely that the moon landing was faked than that Brigitte Macron has a penis?

00:23:28.920 Okay, come on.

00:23:30.020 Come on.

00:23:33.580 Who can I not affect?

00:23:36.000 Let's read the question again.

00:23:37.560 Okay.

00:23:37.980 Is it more likely that the moon landing was faked than that Brigitte Macron has a penis?

00:23:43.940 I don't know my answer to this.

00:23:45.780 I don't.

00:23:49.940 Okay.

00:23:53.060 Oh, he got it.

00:23:53.880 Yeah.

00:23:54.180 He got it.

00:23:54.660 Yeah.

00:23:54.840 We went to the moon.

00:23:56.120 We definitely went to the moon.

00:23:57.260 That's going to give me a lot of time.

00:23:57.840 We 100% went to the moon.

00:23:58.720 We went to the moon, right?

00:23:59.700 Yeah.

00:23:59.880 And the thing is, it's not, as I said on the show, I think there, in the political fight

00:24:07.560 over the gender of the first lady of France, there are all sorts of legal and political

00:24:13.560 maneuvers that could turn lawsuits out in any direction.

00:24:18.820 All sorts of things that are not necessarily relying on biology.

00:24:22.220 But we live in a time when transgenderism is accepted.

00:24:25.400 We live in a time when people think transgenderism, some people think it's normal.

00:24:28.620 We live in a time when people go to the doctors to get chopped up, and usually they don't really

00:24:32.480 look that convincing, but whatever.

00:24:35.360 So, I cannot be convinced that the Soviet Union would have let us get away with lying

00:24:43.840 about the moon.

00:24:44.640 That's my biggest problem with all the moon stuff.

00:24:47.400 Why, if it were all fake, and it were so obviously fake that anyone in this dorm room

00:24:53.080 can figure it out, why would the Soviet Union let us get away with it?

00:24:56.580 I mean, that's a great question.

00:24:57.740 Also, questions would be, like, we went back there multiple times.

00:25:00.500 And then golfed, right?

00:25:01.700 Also, we developed, like, actual inventions based on things like travel to space that

00:25:06.820 ended with the landing on the moon.

00:25:08.900 Space, yes.

00:25:09.980 But they would say, yeah, we've been to lower orbit.

00:25:11.800 Okay, so here is my thing.

00:25:15.300 Obviously, both of these things are untrue.

00:25:17.060 We did land on the moon, and Brigitte Macron does not have a penis.

00:25:20.660 However.

00:25:21.400 What about Carla Bruni?

00:25:22.940 Because you, what about?

00:25:25.020 But you are right that actually the basis of the dismissal of a case in France about this

00:25:29.740 was not whether or not Brigitte Macron had a penis.

00:25:32.240 It was that the court said, you cannot show that there are damages from claiming

00:25:36.320 that Brigitte Macron has a penis.

00:25:38.460 Meaning, like, you can't even say that's an insult in France.

00:25:41.280 So no damages, therefore, attend to the case.

00:25:43.240 It got dismissed on that basis.

00:25:44.500 And so you're right that the widespread acceptance of this silliness

00:25:46.880 means that anything is at least slightly possible.

00:25:50.020 I would go even further.

00:25:51.360 Like, yes.

00:25:52.100 Because you say, how are there damages?

00:25:53.880 That's a good thing.

00:25:54.920 If anything, you should be happy.

00:25:56.380 Tolerant and happy.

00:25:57.120 But the other thing is on actual malice.

00:25:59.760 You know, you have to prove actual malice, which means either you knew you were lying,

00:26:03.760 you knew it wasn't true, but you said it anyway, or you had a reckless disregard for the truth.

00:26:08.080 To me, you know, I'm not a lawyer, but when you're talking about the transgender issue,

00:26:14.800 everyone tells us it's totally normal, it's existed forever,

00:26:18.540 it's a reasonable assumption to make that someone could be transgender.

00:26:21.200 And if you're asking me who has the reckless disregard for the truth here,

00:26:25.780 it's the pro-transgender activists.

00:26:27.380 It's not the people of all the people in the world.

00:26:29.140 Yes, that's true.

00:26:30.200 But yeah, I mean, the moon landing happened.

00:26:32.580 I'm, as you know, I'm deeply annoyed by virtually all conspiracy theories.

00:26:37.420 Yeah.

00:26:37.940 Because they assume a level of competence that is not in evidence.

00:26:40.400 Yeah, yeah.

00:26:40.900 I think it...

00:26:41.580 Are there any you buy into?

00:26:42.560 I mean, I sort of buy into that Justin Trudeau is Fidel Castro's kid.

00:26:48.960 Do you?

00:26:49.340 Yeah.

00:26:49.620 I mean, like, I'm joking about that.

00:26:51.280 It depends on the picture you look at.

00:26:53.220 Right.

00:26:53.460 Because some, he's a dead ringer.

00:26:56.180 Right, exactly.

00:26:56.600 And the mom was like buddies with Castro.

00:26:58.340 Yeah, and was traveling in that area at the time.

00:26:59.940 Yeah.

00:27:00.300 And was kind of known for, you know, knocking boots.

00:27:03.120 But yeah, but in general, that kind of conspiracy theory is more plausible to me

00:27:08.680 because it does not actually, it involves a personal relationship, not an actual gigantic

00:27:12.380 conspiracy to accomplish a thing.

00:27:13.320 Yeah, that conspiracy is two people.

00:27:14.720 Right, exactly.

00:27:15.560 So if you're talking about like conspiracy between two people, that's a lot more plausible

00:27:18.140 to me than every single person at NASA was complicit in the shooting on a stand on stage

00:27:22.580 and everybody in PR, everybody at the Pentagon, everybody in the White House, all the media,

00:27:26.760 they were all complicit in this gigantic...

00:27:28.960 Have you seen how any of these institutions work?

00:27:31.380 They're filled with humans.

00:27:33.000 And humans are stupid and venal and bad at things.

00:27:36.700 And like, I'm just, I'm astonished that it would take more brainpower to come up with

00:27:42.840 the conspiracy about a moon landing than it would brainpower to actually put a man on

00:27:47.140 the moon.

00:27:47.660 Yeah, I noticed something.

00:27:49.300 I was totally opposed to all conspiracy theories.

00:27:52.120 And then I got into some of them.

00:27:54.380 I at least enjoy entertaining them because it's kind of an intellectual exercise.

00:27:57.860 And they're kind of fun to go down.

00:27:59.560 And then I got into them a little bit.

00:28:01.720 And then I came out of them a little bit more.

00:28:03.600 And the determining factor from stage two to stage three was when I was not in politics,

00:28:11.000 I thought, whatever, everything the government tells me is true.

00:28:14.660 And I got a little bit into politics, although it's all a grand conspiracy.

00:28:17.500 And then I got pretty into politics where I am spending a lot of time in the halls of

00:28:21.980 power and seeing with the players.

00:28:23.840 And I realized they are, they are human beings.

00:28:28.320 Yeah, it's veep.

00:28:28.900 It's not, it's not cars.

00:28:30.360 It's, it's definitely much, it's 99% veep.

00:28:35.120 And then 1% people thinking they're in hell.

00:28:36.840 I think that's exactly right.

00:28:37.940 I think that's exactly right.

00:28:38.840 And the other thing that I think, the reason I went from like mildly amused by it to annoyed

00:28:43.500 is that I do think that a lot of these theories are enervating and actually are driving negativity

00:28:48.480 about the country.

00:28:49.500 Yeah.

00:28:49.700 I don't think that the moon landing stuff is just like, oh, it's fun to speculate about

00:28:52.820 whether there's moon landing, who cares whether there's really moon, it was more like America

00:28:55.400 was never awesome.

00:28:56.140 America wouldn't have been capable of that.

00:28:57.500 Yeah.

00:28:57.740 You know, and it's kind of a rip on America, which I, which I think sucks.

00:29:00.620 Yeah.

00:29:00.940 Like America kicks ass.

00:29:02.240 We did put a man on the moon.

00:29:03.480 We beat the Soviets there.

00:29:05.440 We took down their entire empire.

00:29:06.960 Like we are awesome.

00:29:08.200 And can you please stop trying to, and I feel like every conspiracy theory, not actual conspiracies

00:29:12.340 where there's actual evidence of people in a room doing a thing like Anthony Fauci and

00:29:15.760 Jay Bhattacharya or something.

00:29:17.100 There are false flag attacks.

00:29:18.840 That's real.

00:29:19.320 Yes.

00:29:19.520 There are actual like government operatives like Fauci who like conspire to cover up crimes

00:29:25.500 and do they, or cover up at least incompetence, Russiagate.

00:29:28.780 Oh, there, that does happen.

00:29:30.380 Yes.

00:29:30.620 And then there's evidence of it.

00:29:31.600 And then we can tell there's evidence of it.

00:29:33.400 But so many of the like real conspiracy theories are really about just kind of in the end running

00:29:37.660 down the country and also making you believe that you have no control over your own life,

00:29:41.340 which is really my bugger boob.

00:29:42.220 Yeah.

00:29:42.460 I hate that.

00:29:43.320 I really hate it.

00:29:44.200 Like to me, the fundamental basis of Judaism and Christianity is if your life is screwed

00:29:51.260 up, there's like a 95% shot that it was probably you.

00:29:54.520 Yes.

00:29:55.320 Yeah.

00:29:55.540 It's not 100%.

00:29:56.500 It's not 100%.

00:29:57.420 Terrible things happen to people.

00:29:58.640 Yeah.

00:29:58.800 People have health problems.

00:30:00.020 You know, a brick falls from the sky.

00:30:01.400 It hits like things happen.

00:30:02.440 Yeah.

00:30:02.540 But most people's problems, most of the time, are at least partially caused by them.

00:30:06.820 On a long enough time scale.

00:30:08.020 Yes.

00:30:08.320 And this is a very biblical principle.

00:30:10.560 Yeah.

00:30:10.840 Right?

00:30:11.080 The Old Testament, which I'm much more familiar with than the New, the Old Testament is very

00:30:14.680 big on the idea that like you screwed up and then you got walloped.

00:30:18.860 Yeah.

00:30:19.140 Right?

00:30:19.340 It's not like the gods were randomly fighting in the sky and then you just kind of like got

00:30:22.420 knocked over.

00:30:23.840 Like this is, you violated the rules and then you got walloped.

00:30:27.140 And so that's, that's in one sense scary, but on the other hand, it's actually quite

00:30:31.080 empowering because it means that many things in your life are in your control.

00:30:33.840 You see this in the New Testament though, when, when, uh, you know, the parable of the

00:30:36.880 man is in hell and he says, oh no, I want to go back and warn my loved ones, you know,

00:30:41.020 that you can go to hell and everything.

00:30:42.700 And, uh, and he says, no, why you had all, all the prophets, you had all the, I told you

00:30:49.940 so many times, like you, you think one more, no, no, no, but me one more time I'm going

00:30:55.380 to go try to, that's not going to do it, man.

00:30:57.860 You know, you, and this is the thing about these people in their basements doing the

00:31:00.820 conspiracy.

00:31:01.260 Is your life better because you're doing this?

00:31:02.780 Like really, this is the thing.

00:31:04.000 Is your life better because you're sitting in a basement theorizing about a shadowy cabal

00:31:07.420 running your life?

00:31:08.360 It would be if they could uncover, if, if, if the premise were true, if they could uncover

00:31:14.160 the truth, if they could act upon the truth, then in principle would be, but does that

00:31:20.380 happen?

00:31:20.860 Right.

00:31:21.220 It's, it's, it's never, do any of those things happen?

00:31:22.920 No, no, no, they don't.

00:31:24.580 All right, your turn, I think.

00:31:26.220 I'm up.

00:31:27.360 This question will follow a short video prompt.

00:31:32.600 Speaking of speaking of.

00:31:36.580 Wow.

00:31:37.520 Wow, this is, this is good writing.

00:31:39.960 Okay.

00:31:40.200 Because they knew that we'd be talking about that.

00:31:42.340 Yes.

00:31:42.620 And then, now that you've seen more evidence.

00:31:47.280 Wow, man, this is good writing.

00:31:48.620 I never complimented her.

00:31:51.020 Wow.

00:31:51.420 Now, now that you've seen more evidence, are you at least skeptical that Jeffrey Epstein

00:31:56.720 killed himself?

00:32:00.380 Oh, my God.

00:32:01.040 You just have the evidence.

00:32:02.180 It's such a rigged question.

00:32:03.540 Can we play it again?

00:32:04.380 Wow.

00:32:11.260 Okay.

00:32:12.280 Are you now?

00:32:13.840 I thought Mr. Facts don't care about your feelings.

00:32:15.980 I know.

00:32:17.620 You're asking me not to believe my life.

00:32:18.860 Okay, ready?

00:32:19.580 Yeah.

00:32:22.580 You are wrongly going to say no.

00:32:26.800 No, you said yes?

00:32:27.960 Ah, man.

00:32:28.860 Yes, because it was, because it's a, it's a logical conundrum.

00:32:31.420 I don't believe, that's it, that's a terrible piece of evidence.

00:32:33.280 But I've also set up a, I've also set up a paradigm where, if I see additional evidence

00:32:37.480 of a thing, I have to then change my opinion.

00:32:39.360 So, you know, I think the premise of your question is that we're going to pretend that's

00:32:42.700 actual evidence and not AI.

00:32:44.940 Pretend.

00:32:45.620 It's better than the video they released, that's for sure.

00:32:47.700 By the way, I mean, that would take some, like, serious strength on her part, right?

00:32:50.520 Like, does Hillary have that, that sort of, you know, grip strength that she could really,

00:32:54.560 like, go after Jeffrey Epstein that way?

00:32:56.040 Maybe.

00:32:56.600 The adrenochrome.

00:32:57.480 That's what, that's what does it.

00:32:58.440 Yeah, exactly.

00:32:58.740 Did I pronounce that correctly?

00:32:59.880 The, the CBS report.

00:33:01.960 Did you see the CBS report on Epstein?

00:33:04.860 Uh, which one?

00:33:05.960 The one that came out, like, a week or two ago.

00:33:07.980 And it kind of just goes down the list of, okay, we've examined this video evidence, and

00:33:12.020 yeah, it's not raw footage, the metadata show, it's a screen grab, also there's, like, a cursor

00:33:16.800 in the footage, and it's missing a minute, but it might actually be closer to three minutes.

00:33:20.840 And it goes through even beyond the video.

00:33:24.480 But within the video is important, because it shows, actually, there was another person,

00:33:27.600 kind of, on camera, who they said was carrying linens, but was probably in an orange

00:33:30.660 jumpsuit.

00:33:31.180 And actually, you can't see the entrance to Jeffrey Epstein's cell, and actually, you

00:33:33.800 can't, and actually, actually, actually, actually.

00:33:35.820 Then it goes through all of the, uh, confusions.

00:33:39.440 I, I, I don't want to say contradictions, but contradictions in the government's reporting

00:33:44.100 on this.

00:33:46.340 I'm not saying he didn't kill himself, necessarily.

00:33:48.900 I'm not saying he, you know, is the greatest super spy that's ever lived in the whole history

00:33:53.680 of the world.

00:33:54.940 There is no way we're getting this straight story.

00:33:56.800 Don't you think?

00:33:57.820 I mean, it depends on how you're defining the, the, the, the straight story.

00:34:03.040 Why would they say they're releasing the raw video?

00:34:05.360 Yes.

00:34:05.560 Say the device is reset at midnight, like it's 1993.

00:34:08.660 Now, certain government agencies do use government 1993.

00:34:10.820 I mean, because they literally, until we, they literally were storing all government documents

00:34:14.300 in a cave.

00:34:14.920 Yeah, right, right.

00:34:15.840 No, I, I get, I know, I'm, I get government agencies sometimes are like that, but you

00:34:19.660 had, according to CBS, at least, so.

00:34:21.480 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:34:22.280 They said, high government source in Intel says that's not what's going on.

00:34:25.480 The FBI has the full footage without the skip, without the frame reset, without, come on.

00:34:29.760 It's like, come on, man.

00:34:30.720 One or two anomalies, I say, whatever, that's the government.

00:34:33.400 It's like, you know, a dozen anomalies.

00:34:35.500 So, again, I said this to Megyn Kelly, and she got pissed at me, but the, the reality is that

00:34:40.180 I'm talking to people whose names people would know.

00:34:44.560 Yes.

00:34:44.800 In the government.

00:34:45.320 Yes.

00:34:45.620 Who looked at all this stuff.

00:34:47.120 So, you have to now posit that they are in on it, that they are involved in the cover-up.

00:34:52.440 And knowing the people that I'm talking about, I do not believe that they are in on the cover-up.

00:34:56.520 I don't think President Trump is in on a gigantic cover-up.

00:34:58.600 I certainly think that the most extreme version of this case, which is that Jeffrey Epstein was

00:35:02.340 a Assad agent who's running child sex trafficking on behalf of, of Israel.

00:35:06.520 With compromise on Trump.

00:35:07.760 With compromise on Trump, and then Trump is covering it up.

00:35:09.600 Ridiculous.

00:35:09.980 Like, I think, first of all, if people are actually articulating that theory, they should

00:35:12.660 have the balls to just say it out loud.

00:35:13.920 Yeah.

00:35:14.100 And see how President Trump takes it from them.

00:35:15.740 Yeah.

00:35:15.860 I know they like to kind of flirt around the edges of it, but they don't, they won't actually

00:35:18.720 say the thing.

00:35:19.700 But, you know, they, you know, Dershowitz said that he thinks that Epstein killed himself,

00:35:24.140 but that he was probably aided in the killing of himself.

00:35:26.720 That I find plausible.

00:35:27.880 Yeah.

00:35:28.120 Right?

00:35:28.240 Because you did have, somebody was removed from his cell.

00:35:30.720 He had a cellmate.

00:35:31.280 The cellmate was gone.

00:35:32.260 He went out, he apparently, according to the CBS report, he went out, he made a phone call,

00:35:35.560 an unsupervised phone call, like hours before he died.

00:35:37.840 I mean, I could certainly see a world where Epstein was bribing guards.

00:35:40.900 And you can see why he would kill himself.

00:35:42.280 He was about to spend the rest of his life in prison for raping children, which, as it

00:35:45.960 turns out, is a really, really bad way to spend the rest of your life.

00:35:49.040 So, you know, could there be, again, if there were, is every question I have answered?

00:35:56.440 No.

00:35:56.760 I have to make a judgment now as to who I think is lying.

00:36:00.340 Yeah.

00:36:00.880 And I haven't seen the evidence to suggest that the people I'm talking about are lying.

00:36:06.080 And if they are lying, I want to know why they're lying and what your theory of the case

00:36:09.860 is as to why they're lying.

00:36:11.140 Okay, go ahead.

00:36:11.460 Because my view, as is often the case, is probably the least popular view, but it's certainly

00:36:16.740 correct, which is, I don't think the government's being forthright.

00:36:21.260 I think the government has contradicted itself many times on this.

00:36:23.660 I think even just looking at the video, the video was told on itself in a way, you know,

00:36:30.260 just the reset and the time and the framing and everything.

00:36:32.700 Um, the, the interpretation of what the video showed, whatever.

00:36:36.920 Uh, but because I'm not a libertarian and because I'm not like one of these, you know,

00:36:43.340 I'm, I think politics is a complicated, nuanced system of, uh, alliances and longstanding operations

00:36:53.060 that go on for many presidential administrations.

00:36:56.040 The Epstein thing long predates Trump.

00:36:58.520 And we know, we've known now since 2018, though Radar Online reported it as breaking

00:37:04.480 news like three days ago, that the FBI had a deal with, with Epstein at least by 2007,

00:37:11.740 at least by the time of his sweetheart deal that he got in Florida that had been reported

00:37:15.280 by Daily Beast through Alex Acosta reportedly when he was, and they say it was FOIA'd now,

00:37:21.140 but this was reported in 2018 that the FBI was getting information.

00:37:24.200 We have memos from the FBI.

00:37:25.520 It was getting information from, from Epstein.

00:37:27.040 Well, as part of his plea deal, which, which again is incredibly common in England.

00:37:31.020 So yes, I mean, there's, by the way, I should mention here that what the document says is

00:37:34.300 that as part of the plea deal, which means that it was supposed to close the case, essentially,

00:37:38.860 he was going to provide information, but that does not mean in an ongoing relationship.

00:37:42.400 That's true.

00:37:42.880 It could have been, it could have been like for that case.

00:37:44.480 I just want to be clear about the legal.

00:37:45.680 I mean, that is the legal of it.

00:37:46.640 Now, maybe he was, but there's been no evidence of that.

00:37:49.080 And again, I think that-

00:37:51.060 But if the government, look, if the FBI wasn't totally, the FBI wasn't totally forthright

00:37:55.880 about its relationship with Epstein, even around the plea deal.

00:37:59.120 But I guess my argument is governments don't have to be.

00:38:03.240 Governments are not meant to be radically transparent.

00:38:05.820 Governments do sometimes cover up intel they're getting from people.

00:38:09.660 They do cover up certain clandestine operations.

00:38:11.780 They do, I think what the American people want on the Epstein thing is they want to know

00:38:18.220 that justice is being done in some way.

00:38:20.660 So I think that's true for some.

00:38:21.820 I think what some people really, really want is for there to be a giant ring of pedophile

00:38:26.700 rich people who control the world.

00:38:27.760 Yes.

00:38:28.180 And anything short of that is going to be insufficient to quell the uprest.

00:38:32.160 Right.

00:38:32.580 Yeah, no, that's true.

00:38:34.280 It's like-

00:38:34.640 If a bunch of these people who are pushing this got what you said, which is, okay, here

00:38:40.120 are the names of three low-level randos who Jeffrey Epstein trafficked girls to.

00:38:45.140 And that's it, and we're prosecuting them.

00:38:47.880 Right?

00:38:48.280 They would not be satisfied.

00:38:49.180 No one would be satisfied.

00:38:49.740 Certainly.

00:38:50.100 Because what they actually want is for there to be this thing that happened.

00:38:53.880 Because it's a nice thing to believe.

00:38:55.760 Again, it goes back to the whole, like, there's a secret cabal running your life.

00:38:59.240 Again, if you provide me evidence that the secret cabal is running, then you're now in the

00:39:03.320 position of having to argue that Donald Trump and Cash Patel and Dan Bungino and Pam

00:39:07.440 Bondi are all involved in the secret cabal or covering up for the secret cabal.

00:39:10.940 Yeah.

00:39:11.080 And the people who, again, are opposing the strongest version of this theory do not have

00:39:14.440 the balls to just say it out loud.

00:39:15.800 They're constantly playing around the edges.

00:39:17.680 Yeah.

00:39:18.120 It's funny.

00:39:18.700 This is where, as more of a traditionalist, I just say, like, if they're not releasing

00:39:23.960 everything for whatever reason, I think I elect them for their judgment.

00:39:28.740 I elect them for their judgment.

00:39:29.420 So you and I are making kind of similar arguments here.

00:39:32.000 Meaning, like, I don't know.

00:39:33.120 I don't know what's in the files.

00:39:34.040 You don't know what's in the files.

00:39:34.920 Yeah.

00:39:35.060 But you know who knows who's in the files?

00:39:36.800 Cash.

00:39:37.660 Yeah.

00:39:37.900 Dan.

00:39:38.480 Right.

00:39:38.740 Pam.

00:39:39.520 Presumably Trump.

00:39:40.220 Presumably JD.

00:39:41.180 Yeah.

00:39:41.560 Like, they're all meeting on it this week.

00:39:43.560 So, yeah.

00:39:43.920 Yeah, that's true.

00:39:44.600 They're all meeting on it a couple weeks ago.

00:39:46.080 Yeah.

00:39:46.380 Yeah, it is.

00:39:47.100 But I'm still pretty firmly, team, nothing ever happens.

00:39:51.620 The number of things that happen in history, that, like, happen, happen.

00:39:54.400 Yes.

00:39:54.700 That, like, happen.

00:39:55.880 Yeah.

00:39:56.240 It's like four.

00:39:57.360 I agree.

00:39:58.260 Maybe five.

00:39:59.280 I agree.

00:39:59.640 Okay, I think I'm reading you a question, yes.

00:40:01.360 Here you go.

00:40:02.740 We have a message from Lizzo.

00:40:04.780 Oh, my genes.

00:40:07.700 Oh, come on.

00:40:11.500 Are stolen.

00:40:15.000 Wow.

00:40:16.020 Okay.

00:40:16.460 Wow.

00:40:16.940 Was the Sidney Sweeney version better?

00:40:20.740 You have to guess my answer.

00:40:21.780 Yeah.

00:40:25.120 Did I enjoy it?

00:40:26.380 I don't know.

00:40:26.800 I kind of enjoyed that.

00:40:27.880 It's kind of...

00:40:28.580 It's both body shaming and racist, wasn't it?

00:40:31.320 Yeah.

00:40:31.480 Yeah.

00:40:31.540 Yeah, I can, I, look, I could make a, I could make a little joke or something, but...

00:40:40.040 Let's be clear, yeah.

00:40:40.700 The Sidney Sweeney jeans ad.

00:40:42.300 I, I said the whole time, two cheers for Sidney Sweeney jeans, because it's not, I don't think,

00:40:48.120 like, women bearing a lot of their bodies and, like, inciting lusts is, like, the, I don't

00:40:55.080 think it's, like, the best thing, but a return from whatever we're at, androgynous, creepy

00:41:02.100 2020s to 90s moderate liberalism is an improvement, and she's very beautiful, and she's normal.

00:41:10.160 This is a very good take.

00:41:10.920 So, I said this on the show, that I'm old enough to remember when conservatives went nuts

00:41:14.900 over Paris Hilton grinding on a car for a Carl's Jr. commercial in, like, 2005, right?

00:41:20.020 That was, like, a big thing on the right.

00:41:21.340 I remember, and we were all, like, what is this, she's only famous for doing pornography,

00:41:25.500 like, and here she is grinding on a car to sell burgers.

00:41:28.300 Yeah.

00:41:28.560 Like, what the hell, like, this is gross, and so I'm still from that school, which is, it

00:41:32.640 is not good for women, but, but, we live in a time in which they have gone so far crazy

00:41:39.160 that it is now right-wing coded for a beautiful woman to be on your TV in a sexy way.

00:41:47.180 Yeah.

00:41:47.400 And so, like, as I, I've said this before about politics, it's one of the very weird

00:41:51.340 things about politics, is that it's sort of like that optical illusion where you take

00:41:54.320 one, a color, and you put it against blue, and then you put it against yellow, and it

00:41:58.620 looks like two separate colors, but it's the same color?

00:42:00.200 Yes.

00:42:00.640 Right?

00:42:00.840 So, like, if I go on Bill Maher's show and I say a thing, I look like a rabid right-winger,

00:42:04.220 but if I go on a show with you, then I look like a moderate.

00:42:06.700 Yeah.

00:42:07.060 Right?

00:42:07.240 Like, it's the exact same thing, word for word.

00:42:09.880 Right.

00:42:09.980 So, I feel like that about this particular jeans ad.

00:42:12.220 You put this jeans ad on TV in 2005, and we're all like, man, the kind of pornification

00:42:16.440 of American society just continues to pace.

00:42:18.500 Yes.

00:42:18.840 It's not great.

00:42:19.560 And then you put it next to, by the way, men are women, and this could have been Dylan

00:42:23.120 Mulvaney.

00:42:23.720 Yes.

00:42:24.020 Or it could.

00:42:24.520 And it would have been.

00:42:25.220 It would have been if it were Jaguar.

00:42:26.160 Three years ago, it would have been.

00:42:27.100 A hundred percent.

00:42:27.480 That Jaguar ad was crazy.

00:42:28.680 A hundred percent.

00:42:29.080 And judges.

00:42:29.500 Yes.

00:42:29.680 I mean, I had this thought, which is, my reaction to the Sidney Sweeney ad is, that's

00:42:36.620 a good ad.

00:42:37.060 I'm fairly disciplined.

00:42:38.320 But if I looked at the ad too long, my reaction might be, oh, that's a nice ad, you

00:42:42.900 know, I'll watch it again.

00:42:44.520 But my reaction to the creepy, androgynous, weirdo sex ad is actually nausea.

00:42:53.280 Yeah.

00:42:53.420 It's actually a, because in one, it's appealing to the prurient interest in a way that is natural.

00:42:59.680 Yes.

00:43:00.200 Okay.

00:43:00.620 In the other, it's appealing to the prurient interest in a way that is entirely contrary

00:43:04.180 to nature and everything we know about reality.

00:43:07.220 I guess the former is better.

00:43:08.860 Right.

00:43:09.040 Exactly.

00:43:09.400 Right?

00:43:09.760 I'm with you.

00:43:10.580 Okay.

00:43:11.180 I'm up.

00:43:12.180 But you know what?

00:43:12.800 You know what's going to happen before I read this question, Ben?

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00:44:16.580 Yes or no?

00:44:17.340 Because the family game night wasn't heated enough.

00:44:21.040 Ben, do you know what time it is?

00:44:23.860 I don't.

00:44:24.780 It's time for the rapid fire round.

00:44:26.520 Slow fire.

00:44:31.540 It was the slower fire round.

00:44:33.980 But I have to say on the dogs going to heaven thing, that is an unanswerable question once

00:44:39.200 you have kids.

00:44:40.540 We have a dog, and I have four kids, 11, 9, 5, and 2.

00:44:45.820 And I was asked this question.

00:44:47.100 Yes.

00:44:47.720 And you know the answer.

00:44:48.800 Of course I know the answer.

00:44:49.460 And so you are left with two possible answers to a child.

00:44:53.440 One is to lie, and the other is to also lie.

00:44:56.600 It is to either say, yes, the dog goes to heaven, or two, the dog never dies.

00:45:02.500 Right?

00:45:03.020 It goes to heaven.

00:45:03.500 And so I actually felt the second was less blasphemous.

00:45:06.440 Yeah.

00:45:06.980 So I went with, don't worry, we'll come up with medicines, and the dog will be 150 years

00:45:10.000 old.

00:45:10.540 Wow.

00:45:11.020 You didn't even do, like, well, maybe the dog, we'll send the dog to a farm.

00:45:15.760 No, I didn't.

00:45:16.160 In a hash box.

00:45:16.880 Yeah, you did.

00:45:17.600 You're not going to send it to a glue factory.

00:45:20.720 No, I guess that's horses.

00:45:21.420 I mean, my son did say this the other day.

00:45:23.300 He, for some reason, was just in a dark mood, and he turns to me, and he's like, I'm very

00:45:28.040 sad the dog's going to die.

00:45:29.500 And I was like, yeah, the dog's really young.

00:45:30.860 I mean, the dog's like two and a half years old, probably lived to be 15 or whatever.

00:45:33.380 That's the most Shapiro, like, you're a Shapiro kid, you're just like, well, in 11 years,

00:45:38.680 this is what's going to happen.

00:45:40.000 Yes.

00:45:40.280 I need to prepare.

00:45:41.180 And he's still kind of sad, like, listen, you know, we can talk about this, but let's

00:45:45.020 be real, like, in a billion years, the sun's going to explode and eat the earth.

00:45:49.800 So, like, you know, let me just put off this conversation for another day.

00:45:54.060 I love this idea.

00:45:55.740 He's like, you think the dog's going to die?

00:45:57.880 Wait until you hear what's going to happen to us someday.

00:45:59.780 Exactly.

00:46:00.380 I guess we'll all be dead by then.

00:46:02.480 He asked me about that one time.

00:46:03.720 He's like, is it true the sun's going to eat the earth?

00:46:05.680 I was like, yeah, we'll all be dead by then.

00:46:06.580 Who cares?

00:46:06.840 Yeah, we'll all be.

00:46:07.560 Whatever.

00:46:07.980 I know.

00:46:08.820 I know.

00:46:09.220 I was just talking about this with Elisa last night.

00:46:11.200 I was like, she was like, how do we tell the kids about death?

00:46:13.640 They're reading fairy tales, and they're talking about, like, so-and-so died, so-and-so almost

00:46:16.840 died, and they're starting to wonder about death.

00:46:19.340 It's like, what do we tell them?

00:46:21.040 Yeah.

00:46:21.460 We're going to tell them brutal realities, which includes some hope, but it's going to be.

00:46:27.940 By the way, I mean, death kind of naturally comes up in a biblical worldview pretty much all

00:46:31.500 the time.

00:46:31.840 Yeah.

00:46:32.300 I mean, like, it's within the first few chapters of the Bible.

00:46:35.140 Like, you're there.

00:46:35.640 I was, we were in it, we were walking around a church in Italy, and so it's like, the tour

00:46:40.400 guide said, there's a skull over there of saint, I don't remember what saint, and, but,

00:46:45.460 you know, it's very controversial, the veneration of relics.

00:46:48.300 It's not controversial to me, but he goes, it's very controversial, and I don't know if you

00:46:51.400 want to see the, and then my two-year-old, he's like, I want to see the skull.

00:46:55.840 Show me the skull.

00:46:57.980 There you go, buddy.

00:46:58.760 My son, we went to, we were in Italy, we went to one of these, it was actually Malta,

00:47:03.180 we went to one of these catacombs, and they had unburied some of the, there's like a skull

00:47:08.300 and some bones there, and my son was like, I can't believe that, like, he, and so later

00:47:14.220 he turns to me and said, you know, Dad, I never thought that I was actually going to see

00:47:17.600 that face-to-head.

00:47:22.880 I was looking right at him.

00:47:24.280 Face-to-face, face-to-head, it was very funny.

00:47:27.620 Now, Ben, do you know how to play this round?

00:47:30.260 I don't.

00:47:31.300 I don't either, but they put it in my teleprompter.

00:47:34.480 Three rounds, 30 seconds, no time to outthink each other.

00:47:37.760 Okay, fine.

00:47:38.580 That's, that's shorthand for shut up, yeah, okay, you're up, no, I'm up, I'm up, okay.

00:47:44.380 Ready, rapid fire.

00:47:45.480 Even though they're crafted in the likeness of pagan idols, are labooboos, labooboos?

00:47:53.440 Labooboos.

00:47:54.100 Or lababus, like a succubus, incubus, are lababoos totally fine?

00:48:01.840 You're going to say yes, you sicko.

00:48:04.460 Oh, no, you said no, I thought you had one on your set.

00:48:06.860 I mean, my producers put it there, but I don't approve what my, it's like, my producers

00:48:10.780 are like my children, I don't approve what they do.

00:48:12.400 Yeah, no, that's fair.

00:48:13.160 Yeah, no, nothing named after and looking like a demon gets to go on set, that's crazy.

00:48:18.220 Do you believe the remains of giants can be found?

00:48:24.880 You're going to say no.

00:48:27.300 All right.

00:48:28.280 Yeah, because, again, it gets into definitions.

00:48:30.460 It's like, are we talking about, like, a giant back in biblical days, which means, like,

00:48:34.000 some of the people around the office are like five foot four.

00:48:35.260 Yeah, he's like five foot eight.

00:48:36.160 Given the overwhelming scientific evidence for the miraculous image on the Shroud of Turin,

00:48:44.820 have you been shroud-pilled?

00:48:46.420 I know the answer, but there's a good episode, if you're a doubter, of a show called Michael

00:48:51.060 Hand that you can watch about this.

00:48:52.720 Are you shroud-pilled?

00:48:53.560 You are, for now, so far, going to say no.

00:49:01.460 Correct.

00:49:02.560 I'll watch your episode.

00:49:04.440 Okay, the episode is good, and, this is weird, it's with a Protestant.

00:49:09.340 Whoa.

00:49:09.640 I thought the Catholics were to shroud people.

00:49:11.480 Whoa, don't you automatically go to hell?

00:49:13.000 Do I?

00:49:13.620 For bringing Protestants out?

00:49:15.440 Jeremiah Johnston, he was amazing.

00:49:16.260 And, actually, another guy came in with the Sudarium of Oviedo.

00:49:20.180 It's very good, and I was actually very glad, because I said to Davies, I said, I thought

00:49:23.980 only Catholics believed in the Shroud.

00:49:25.240 He goes, what are you talking about?

00:49:25.840 I've believed in the Shroud my whole life.

00:49:27.100 And, anyway, you should watch it.

00:49:28.760 You should watch it.

00:49:29.300 I know nothing about the Shroud of Turin, so I will definitely watch it.

00:49:31.260 Watch it, and then we'll see.

00:49:32.720 Okay.

00:49:33.020 And then do you go to the auditorium with the smoke-filled thing?

00:49:35.220 And then we get to that second question.

00:49:37.400 Okay, here we go.

00:49:39.560 Per words written, are your books more successful than mine?

00:49:44.060 What?

00:49:44.340 Okay, hold on.

00:49:46.260 By word.

00:49:54.520 Yeah.

00:49:55.100 For sure.

00:49:55.780 Now, the thing is, if it had been copies sold, then you've written 100,000 books.

00:50:00.280 Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

00:50:00.860 Okay.

00:50:01.140 All right.

00:50:01.540 I'll take that.

00:50:02.200 But you contributed to that book.

00:50:03.440 No, no, no, no.

00:50:04.180 You contributed a word to that book.

00:50:06.040 It was the most important word, actually.

00:50:07.500 That was the key.

00:50:08.480 It was the first word you said.

00:50:09.440 And then I got you an agent for that book, and you got a second advance on that book.

00:50:13.940 Well, for the rights.

00:50:15.040 Yeah, for the rights.

00:50:15.880 It's too many blank books.

00:50:16.660 Yeah, yeah, of course.

00:50:17.560 Unbelievable.

00:50:18.760 Does standing and sitting methodically during mass count as physical exercise for you?

00:50:26.340 Yeah, it does.

00:50:27.000 Well, he forgot kneeling, because he's a Protestant and doesn't know about that.

00:50:29.060 But it does also, because I got my kids jumping on me the whole time.

00:50:35.140 So that's actually, that's all the little muscles in there.

00:50:38.340 All right.

00:50:40.120 Are you surprised you've lasted as long as you have at this company?

00:50:43.740 Are you surprised?

00:50:44.660 I'll give a, okay, I'll give an answer.

00:50:53.620 You got it wrong.

00:50:54.380 Give me those points.

00:50:55.120 It's not a lack of self-confidence.

00:50:57.220 Yes.

00:50:57.380 I'm not surprised that I have lasted in any organization.

00:51:00.600 Yes.

00:51:00.680 I could have at least been, you know, the pizza boy or something.

00:51:02.860 Right.

00:51:02.980 But I didn't, when the company was starting up, it's not that I, I just, these things

00:51:08.680 don't last.

00:51:09.760 Yes.

00:51:09.900 These things don't last.

00:51:10.660 Oh, you mean like the company itself?

00:51:11.780 Yeah, yeah.

00:51:12.140 That's fair.

00:51:12.700 That's fair.

00:51:12.940 And I thought, and so I was like, oh, whatever.

00:51:14.280 That'd be a fun thing to help out on for like six months or a year or whatever.

00:51:17.920 That was like, at this point, 47 years ago.

00:51:20.580 Yeah, exactly.

00:51:20.780 How long have we been doing this?

00:51:21.400 It was 10 years in real time, but like the planet's in Interstellar.

00:51:24.460 It's actually like 70 years in politics time.

00:51:25.980 Yes.

00:51:26.320 Yeah.

00:51:26.640 That, it's amazing.

00:51:27.840 Okay.

00:51:28.440 Now, Ben, it's time for the final round.

00:51:35.620 Fast.

00:51:36.240 Oh, it's fast.

00:51:36.880 Okay.

00:51:37.200 The prompt will be read.

00:51:38.420 We will both lock in our answers, then move our glasses to yes or no to see if we can read

00:51:43.500 each other's minds.

00:51:44.460 This round is worth double points.

00:51:46.760 It could change everything.

00:51:49.960 The score right now, Ben, this is unfortunate.

00:51:52.740 I actually didn't think it was this bad.

00:51:53.620 It's one to three.

00:51:56.400 Oh, wow.

00:51:57.040 Okay.

00:51:57.400 You're winning.

00:51:58.520 Okay.

00:51:58.940 So, the way you do it, I'm going to put my glass here.

00:52:03.200 This, hold on.

00:52:03.840 I'm going to move these cards because all the books and all the merch that we're hawking

00:52:07.940 shamelessly is taken up.

00:52:09.300 Okay.

00:52:10.840 So, I read the prompt.

00:52:14.100 Then, we each lock in how we would answer for ourselves.

00:52:17.620 Yes.

00:52:18.000 Then, we move the other guy's glass.

00:52:19.600 Okay.

00:52:19.780 How we think the other guy would answer.

00:52:20.780 Okay.

00:52:20.920 If it were allowed by the Constitution, would you support a third Trump presidency?

00:52:29.580 In principle or in practice?

00:52:31.840 I'm overcomplicating it.

00:52:33.240 If it were allowed by the Constitution, would you support a third?

00:52:35.760 If there had not been that amendment.

00:52:37.180 If there.

00:52:37.620 Would you be in favor of him running again?

00:52:39.760 Okay.

00:52:40.180 It's my own answer here.

00:52:41.420 Okay.

00:52:42.800 Okay.

00:52:43.200 Okay.

00:52:48.740 Correct.

00:52:50.920 Wrong.

00:52:55.040 Wrong.

00:52:55.580 I mean, good answer.

00:52:56.380 But, okay.

00:52:56.820 So, why?

00:52:57.280 Why?

00:52:57.580 Why, yes.

00:52:58.240 So, I actually think that, shockingly, Donald Trump is now the most rational person, maybe

00:53:03.200 in American politics.

00:53:04.460 Like, truthfully.

00:53:05.460 Like, I actually think that, as you know, I'm a pessimist by nature.

00:53:08.880 Yes.

00:53:09.200 I think that we're at the end of something.

00:53:10.740 Yeah.

00:53:10.920 And I think that Trump is holding back a flood tide of bad stuff.

00:53:13.960 Oh, interesting.

00:53:14.560 Right.

00:53:14.680 I think that Trump is a populist by appeal, but a pragmatist by nature.

00:53:18.960 Yeah.

00:53:19.440 And so, he's not ideologically a populist in the sense that he's just going to continue

00:53:22.300 running that car directly into the nature if the populism doesn't work.

00:53:25.360 Yeah, yeah.

00:53:25.600 I could see a world where you get somebody very ideological after Trump on the right,

00:53:29.640 either in a very populist direction, which I would oppose, or in a very anti-populist

00:53:33.740 direction, which would, you know, provide some political problems.

00:53:36.420 Trump is a shockingly pragmatic figure who's able to unite many, many things in what he

00:53:43.080 is doing.

00:53:43.420 And I don't agree with everything he's doing.

00:53:44.500 I've opposed his tariff wars, for example.

00:53:45.980 I don't think they're a good idea.

00:53:47.320 You know, I've criticized some of the way, like, firing the BLS head.

00:53:50.120 Like, I think there's stuff he does that I don't particularly love.

00:53:52.600 But what I've said about him is that he's heterodox but responsive.

00:53:57.140 And so, he will do a thing that he'll break a long-established precedent.

00:54:03.440 And at least half the time, that's very good.

00:54:05.960 Yeah.

00:54:06.120 At least half the time, that's really good.

00:54:07.640 He's done this on foreign policy a lot, and I've loved it.

00:54:09.620 He's done it some on domestic policy, and I've really loved it as well.

00:54:12.440 Going after DEI, for example, which was, like, an untouchable thing.

00:54:15.220 Yeah, yeah.

00:54:16.280 Breaking the trans momentum, like, all that.

00:54:18.900 And so, the question of a third term or not for him is because I don't know who picks

00:54:24.120 up the mantle of, sort of, pragmatism in a popular way after Trump on the right.

00:54:32.060 And I think what comes after him on the left is going to be egregiously awful.

00:54:35.080 You know, I have, I came to the same answer.

00:54:36.800 I have totally different reasoning.

00:54:38.240 My reasoning is more in principle.

00:54:40.600 I'm, I know this is unpopular in some quarters.

00:54:43.720 I'm with Ronald Reagan.

00:54:44.800 I hate the 22nd Amendment.

00:54:46.600 I'm anti-term limits as well, actually.

00:54:47.860 Yes, I think we have a term limits called the ballot box.

00:54:50.020 Yes, I agree.

00:54:50.360 And I think the way the government is set up fairly consciously, actually, by our framers

00:54:56.040 is to be a mixed regime where you have a monarchical element, an aristocratic element,

00:55:01.020 a democratic element that kind of balances your other out.

00:55:03.480 And FDR took that, obviously, to an extreme.

00:55:06.540 That's how you get the 22nd Amendment.

00:55:07.960 But I, so I like the idea of more continuity of the executive kind of flexing itself, so

00:55:13.940 we're not just governed by judges or whatever.

00:55:16.220 And, and I think Trump has done a very, very good job.

00:55:18.780 I, I'm a little more hopeful about the future of the Republican Party.

00:55:21.940 Well, you're friendlier sort of the populist kind of sentiment than I am.

00:55:24.660 Certainly, without question.

00:55:25.280 And I, I do see an uptick in traditionalism, in, in a good kind of, populism is kind of a term

00:55:31.580 of injury, but I think it's a, some good versions of it.

00:55:34.120 It's more, it's more a tactic than a philosophy, to be fair.

00:55:36.220 Yes.

00:55:36.900 And, and so, and I think there are a lot of people in the administration who are great.

00:55:40.240 Obviously, probably the heir apparent is the vice president.

00:55:43.040 I'd be thrilled with that.

00:55:45.040 Rubio is getting a lot of play right now as secretary of state, and he has like 100 other

00:55:48.120 jobs.

00:55:48.460 But I think even there are other people who could run for president in the admin, in Congress.

00:55:53.080 And so I, it could go wrong, but there's, I think there's good stuff.

00:55:56.920 But I, I was waiting when Trump was reelected for a full Charles the Second Moment.

00:56:05.800 He shows up to Capitol Hill in the joint session.

00:56:09.080 Gentlemen, go home.

00:56:10.700 You are not needed here.

00:56:12.760 We will govern ourselves.

00:56:14.700 But we still have that 22nd Amendment.

00:56:17.700 So.

00:56:17.860 It's true.

00:56:18.260 That's life.

00:56:18.820 Okay, you're up.

00:56:20.780 Morally speaking, is AI generated porn worse than real porn?

00:56:25.820 Hmm.

00:56:26.920 Hmm.

00:56:32.480 Okay.

00:56:33.200 This is not, I don't have a confident answer on this.

00:56:38.440 You're going to say no, and I'll barely say no.

00:56:40.920 I'll barely say no.

00:56:41.700 Yeah, yeah.

00:56:42.620 Why?

00:56:44.600 Because AI generated porn involves the sinfulness and evil of the person who is typing in the

00:56:52.700 prompt, but does not involve a second party who is prostituting herself.

00:56:56.920 Uh, and real porn involves multiple parties being horrific in a myriad of, of, of ways

00:57:03.560 that empty sacks of its meaning, content, joy.

00:57:07.100 Yeah.

00:57:07.300 And, uh, and yeah.

00:57:08.540 So, I mean, it's AI, first of all, I assume AI generated porn will mostly be just men using

00:57:13.640 Grok.

00:57:14.460 Yeah.

00:57:14.760 Imagine to, you know, fulfill their most perverse fantasies.

00:57:18.560 But with.

00:57:18.920 Exactly.

00:57:19.420 Their most perverse.

00:57:20.860 That's the key.

00:57:21.100 Okay, but I, so I think that you're thinking there's a limiting principle here for the ladies

00:57:23.680 on OnlyFans.

00:57:24.300 And I think you are wrong.

00:57:25.320 So I think.

00:57:25.900 No, I.

00:57:26.280 I think that if you pay with ladies on OnlyFans enough, they will do whatever is the most

00:57:29.220 perverse thing.

00:57:29.740 But they're at least limited by, um.

00:57:31.900 Reality.

00:57:32.320 Constraints of reality.

00:57:33.080 Reality.

00:57:33.480 Are you not being raped by an alien?

00:57:34.960 Yeah.

00:57:35.260 No, this is the, the issue for me is it, I might even change my answer.

00:57:40.160 There are these medieval arguments, which I'm sure you've seen, which are that, you

00:57:44.280 know, like masturbation is worse than rape or something, or that sodomy is worse than

00:57:48.100 rape or something.

00:57:48.600 And people are so shocked by that because they say, well, one's consensual, one's not

00:57:51.860 consensual.

00:57:52.840 The re, the reasoning behind those arguments is that they're both terrible, but one is

00:57:57.620 contrary to nature, whereas one is not contrary to nature.

00:58:00.360 And so that's an argument for another time.

00:58:03.100 Leave it to the scholastics.

00:58:04.420 But you can see this play out in the AI thing.

00:58:07.580 What are people going to use AI porn for that they can't get on OnlyFans or any of these

00:58:11.520 other things?

00:58:12.520 They're going to go undress their classmates.

00:58:16.220 They, you see these reports of this all the time.

00:58:17.800 They're going to go make porn of people they know.

00:58:21.320 They're going to create porn of things that cannot exist in reality, that are so going

00:58:26.360 to melt their brains.

00:58:27.980 There was an article just the other day in Wired Magazine, a guy who got addicted to AI

00:58:31.980 porn, and it was creating these creatures that are like naughty, barely recognizably human.

00:58:37.740 And so you say, well, is that, is that more evil to so contradict reality, even if it doesn't

00:58:43.680 involve immediately harming another person?

00:58:46.380 I mean, this is a good argument.

00:58:47.500 I like this argument.

00:58:48.780 I think, I think that's a good argument.

00:58:50.300 I think that you can make the case that, what was the wording of the question?

00:58:54.760 It's always poor.

00:58:55.600 Is it worse?

00:58:56.040 Except for that one time.

00:58:56.740 Is it, is it, is it worse?

00:58:58.980 I mean, if we wanted to like really quibble.

00:59:00.800 Yeah.

00:59:01.020 You could make the case that in the immediate ramifications, real porn is worse.

00:59:06.240 In the societal ramifications, AI porn is worse.

00:59:08.260 Yeah.

00:59:08.520 You could make that argument.

00:59:09.280 Yes.

00:59:09.560 Um, although I do think that removing the incentive structure whereby women get naked

00:59:14.180 for money, which is what AI porn will do, is, is going to be a good thing.

00:59:17.160 A lot of these young women who right now think that their, their pathway to fame and fortune

00:59:20.220 is by essentially being online prostitutes.

00:59:22.600 Yeah.

00:59:22.760 Uh, the, the business goes away and it steals their jobs.

00:59:26.500 And the crazy thing about it.

00:59:27.280 And maybe the thing they can actually offer to people in real life would be like marriage.

00:59:31.620 Yeah.

00:59:31.880 Like actual, like real physical sexual activity with another human being involved in a deeper

00:59:36.380 relationship.

00:59:37.140 Like all the best parts of what you are simulating on OnlyFans, you can do that in a way that

00:59:42.080 will be edifying and lead you to happiness.

00:59:44.340 Right.

00:59:44.620 And flourishing.

00:59:45.480 Yeah.

00:59:45.860 Yeah.

00:59:46.300 Maybe.

00:59:46.600 We're such sexist.

00:59:47.540 I don't know.

00:59:47.920 It's awful.

00:59:48.380 It's terrible.

00:59:48.780 Yeah.

00:59:49.080 It, it, the other, on the, just one last point on the OnlyFans thing, they, they do

00:59:54.820 it because they think they're going to make millions of dollars.

00:59:56.900 And because like one of them ever made millions of dollars.

01:00:01.620 It's, it's like every Faustian bargain, you, you trade something valuable for something

01:00:06.840 that's not that valuable and you don't even get the thing that's not that valuable.

01:00:09.580 That's, that's the craziest part.

01:00:11.240 I mean, even the ones who make a lot of money have destroyed themselves.

01:00:14.960 Yes.

01:00:15.460 Destroyed themselves.

01:00:16.020 They usually lose the money too.

01:00:17.260 It's the other thing.

01:00:17.480 I mean, that too.

01:00:18.300 But they destroy, yeah, it's like, there is no, there's no, there's no life behind

01:00:22.080 Bonnie Blue's eyes.

01:00:23.180 Yeah.

01:00:23.560 That lady is dead inside.

01:00:24.880 It's horrifying.

01:00:25.320 It's dead inside.

01:00:25.820 And you can see it.

01:00:26.400 It's, it's like, it's kind of horrifying.

01:00:27.820 Do not turn yourself into a human lub, lub, lub, la, lus.

01:00:30.820 What is that thing called?

01:00:31.680 Lububu?

01:00:32.160 Lububu.

01:00:32.600 Lububu.

01:00:32.760 Don't do it.

01:00:33.300 Don't turn yourself into.

01:00:34.140 I love that you turn it into a Latin term.

01:00:36.640 Lububus.

01:00:37.860 Lububus, lububi, lububi, lububo, yes.

01:00:40.660 Final score.

01:00:41.580 That's a, are you kidding me?

01:00:46.100 Seven to one.

01:00:47.940 I got wrecked.

01:00:48.940 I got wrecked.

01:00:49.860 That's, that might be the, is that the worst one ever?

01:00:52.540 No, because at least I didn't go negative.

01:00:53.920 I didn't go into the negative numbers.

01:00:55.600 Right now, you need to go pre-order.

01:00:57.880 Mr. Bench Bureau's new book, Lions and Scavengers.

01:01:00.600 The true story of America.

01:01:02.660 See you next time on Yes or No.

01:01:05.640 I got wrecked.

01:01:12.940 I got wrecked.

01:01:17.400 I got wrecked.

The Michael Knowles Show - August 30, 2025

Would You Be Catholic or Protestant？｜ YES or NO： Ben Shapiro

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