The Michael Knowles Show - November 07, 2026


YES or NO： Dallas Jenkins

Ep. 2098 - Gavin Newsom Lets Child Predators & Serial Killers Off the Hook

Episode Stats


Length

58 minutes

Words per minute

183.41

Word count

10,699

Sentence count

1,069

Harmful content

Misogyny

10

sentences flagged

Toxicity

20

sentences flagged

Hate speech

81

sentences flagged


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
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00:01:30.140 The rapture.
00:01:31.360 I'm a captain.
00:01:32.500 We don't, I didn't know what,
00:01:33.560 I'd never even heard of the rapture.
00:01:34.780 There are these lines in scripture
00:01:35.960 that at least present an image
00:01:38.760 of like the elect being taken out.
00:01:40.280 This is figurative.
00:01:42.080 That's certainly a very Catholic perspective.
00:01:44.080 When it happens and I'm gone and you're still here. 0.89
00:01:46.580 It would be nearly impossible
00:01:47.740 to make a show about Jesus without criticism.
00:01:50.120 I've seen a couple theological quibbles
00:01:52.300 from Catholics about the show.
00:01:53.920 Where is most of the criticism?
00:01:55.060 welcome to yes or no the bibulous battle to discover who knows whom better my guest today
00:02:17.220 is dallas jenkins creator and director of the chosen here is how it works i will ask dallas
00:02:23.480 a yes or no question, he will lock in his answer away from my prying eyes. Then I will try to guess
00:02:29.840 what he chose. If I guess correctly, I get a point. If I guess incorrectly, I lose a point.
00:02:35.660 No matter what, I will end up drinking. Then it's Dallas's turn. Neither of us has seen the
00:02:41.280 questions beforehand. Whoever has the most points at the end wins. The stakes could be higher.
00:02:47.640 Dallas, thank you for coming on the show. I'm so grateful to be here. I'm a little nervous,
00:02:52.500 but I think I'm feeling good.
00:02:54.360 I'm feeling confident.
00:02:54.920 You are.
00:02:55.240 You've made it through now
00:02:56.180 seven seasons of the phenomenon show about God.
00:02:59.620 So you might be able to handle this.
00:03:01.740 I also love,
00:03:03.240 has there ever been a more perfect picture
00:03:05.100 of the Catholic and the evangelical?
00:03:08.860 We've got the martini.
00:03:10.280 We've got the glass of milk.
00:03:11.520 This is beautiful.
00:03:12.540 This is what I was raised to love
00:03:13.960 and this is what I was raised to resist.
00:03:15.700 So I have to do what my parents want.
00:03:17.880 I know.
00:03:18.220 For me, it was the opposite,
00:03:19.200 which is why my bones are so brutal
00:03:20.560 in another life.
00:03:22.260 Yes.
00:03:22.500 I'm going to go first, because I'm a man. 0.97
00:03:24.240 If you were a lady, I'd say ladies first. 0.73
00:03:25.600 But you're a man. 0.89
00:03:26.300 Yes.
00:03:27.680 Matt Walsh called The Odyssey.
00:03:29.360 Hold on.
00:03:29.720 This is my show.
00:03:31.000 I have a great guest, Dallas Jenkins, the creator of one of the biggest shows in the world. 0.87
00:03:36.220 And we're opening on stupid Matt Walsh with The Odyssey.
00:03:38.180 We're promoting another show and another movie? 0.99
00:03:39.940 Yeah.
00:03:40.360 Ah, this is bad producing.
00:03:42.200 All right.
00:03:42.500 Do you have any producers at The Chosen that I could borrow for my show?
00:03:45.680 No, they're too busy.
00:03:47.100 Yes.
00:03:47.320 Matt Walsh called The Odyssey.
00:03:48.720 a three-hour-long middle finger to its source material,
00:03:52.420 to white people, and to movie-making in general.
00:03:54.380 He's always very subtle, Matt Walsh.
00:03:56.460 Ben Shapiro called it a masterpiece.
00:03:59.240 Do you agree more with Matt Walsh
00:04:03.300 than with Ben Shapiro?
00:04:06.040 Oh.
00:04:07.400 This is violating the code of directors
00:04:11.180 where we're not supposed to say certain things.
00:04:13.080 Well, you're just opining on...
00:04:14.660 Oh, no, I guess you are opining.
00:04:15.760 Yes.
00:04:15.960 Yeah, you're right.
00:04:16.720 Okay, so you're going right after Christopher Nolan.
00:04:18.720 You're going to say no.
00:04:22.440 Really?
00:04:23.040 I thought you were going to be nice to Christopher Nolan. 0.99
00:04:25.460 You think it was trash.
00:04:27.240 Well, again, Matt Walsh isn't always the most nuanced communicator. 0.94
00:04:31.360 I didn't agree with everything that he said, but I do lean more towards that.
00:04:35.120 I was not as big of a fan of the movie as others were.
00:04:38.180 I had this opinion that seems like the one opinion you're not allowed to have,
00:04:42.120 which is I thought it was, like, fine.
00:04:44.320 Yeah.
00:04:44.700 I thought it was, like, pretty good, I guess.
00:04:46.880 Yeah, I enjoyed it.
00:04:47.920 I really did.
00:04:48.420 Christopher Nolan is brilliant, but some of the shifts in what the meaning of the story was kind of annoyed me.
00:04:55.740 Yeah, there were these interesting takes, and it was in the Virgilian and Dantean tradition and whatever.
00:05:00.780 But also, Sinon has to be a guy.
00:05:04.120 If you're going to insert that character, it has to be a guy.
00:05:06.440 The Cyclops should do the bit, you know, the whole thing.
00:05:08.640 Well, and even just how he was kind of basically emo through all of these extraordinary battles,
00:05:14.320 and he's just like, I don't think I should be doing this.
00:05:16.520 Yeah.
00:05:16.820 I was like, eh.
00:05:18.220 No.
00:05:18.540 It's not really in the source text.
00:05:19.560 I know a little bit about taking iconic source text
00:05:22.680 and trying to bring it to the world.
00:05:24.480 And there are certain things you try to avoid doing,
00:05:26.620 and I don't think he did.
00:05:27.780 Is this a spoiler that season seven of The Chosen
00:05:30.340 does not have Ellen Page in it?
00:05:32.560 Please.
00:05:32.960 Are we breaking news?
00:05:33.680 Please, Michael.
00:05:34.360 Are we?
00:05:34.780 Hold on.
00:05:35.640 All right.
00:05:36.080 Please don't hurt me.
00:05:36.980 I don't want to break.
00:05:37.620 Okay, you're up.
00:05:38.560 Yeah.
00:05:40.380 Are most political podcasters playing a character
00:05:43.760 rather than authentically giving their opinions?
00:05:46.540 are most political podcasters playing a character
00:05:51.160 rather than authentically giving their opinions.
00:05:55.300 And it did not specify at the Daily Wire.
00:05:57.840 Yes, that was implied by my mischievous producer.
00:06:01.100 I'm going to go with yes.
00:06:04.480 You got that wrong.
00:06:05.580 You have to drink your milk.
00:06:07.240 Now, I'll preface this,
00:06:09.780 because we're asking about what it is to be a podcaster.
00:06:12.040 Do I drink it now?
00:06:13.100 You can drink it now, yes.
00:06:14.020 Because I'm thirsty.
00:06:14.720 So we've got to kind of understand what that is to be a podcaster.
00:06:19.520 To be or not to be, that is the question.
00:06:22.700 Whether tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune
00:06:26.360 or to take arms against a sea of troubles and by opposing and to die to...
00:06:30.660 Oh, sorry.
00:06:31.600 Yeah, so are the podcasters just actors?
00:06:33.860 No.
00:06:35.020 Look, there's a lot of overlap between politics and show business.
00:06:37.940 Always has been.
00:06:38.800 Ronald Reagan, Sonny Bono, Arnold Schwarzenegger.
00:06:41.620 There's a lot of overlap.
00:06:43.220 A sitting U.S. senator once told me that all senators are frustrated actors.
00:06:48.160 They just failed at acting.
00:06:50.000 However, no, I don't think the podcasters and the influencers,
00:06:54.460 I don't think that they're playing a role to hide their true opinions.
00:06:58.660 I think it's worse.
00:06:59.820 I think, I'm not going to name any names,
00:07:01.660 I think a lot of them don't really have opinions.
00:07:04.800 So, yes, they're following the audience sometimes.
00:07:08.100 This is all the worst aspects of podcasting and influencers.
00:07:11.380 They're following the audience.
00:07:12.880 They're captured by the audience.
00:07:14.560 They say the last thing they heard in their ear from some other guy.
00:07:18.420 But I think they really believe it.
00:07:19.940 I think they would pass a lie detector test.
00:07:22.100 I think to create a character is actually more complex and too difficult for many of the podcasters.
00:07:27.260 No, that's very true.
00:07:28.080 And I think I didn't focus enough on the second part of the question, authentically giving their opinions.
00:07:32.220 I think their opinions are, for the most part, authentic.
00:07:34.600 And, of course, there's exceptions to all of this.
00:07:36.100 But I think I was thinking more about the persona, the attitude, the aggression at times, or the kindness at times.
00:07:46.560 I think that sometimes it—I thought maybe you might think that only at the Daily Wire are people truly authentic.
00:07:52.280 Only are we really authentic.
00:07:53.320 But I'm not even that big on authenticity.
00:07:55.620 Look, I think I am sincerely myself.
00:07:57.380 I say what I believe.
00:07:58.240 I want that clip taken.
00:07:59.760 Yeah, but I—
00:08:00.340 I'm not big on authenticity.
00:08:01.440 I'm like—I'm down on authenticity.
00:08:03.220 I think this is one of the great errors of our time is we're told that the most important thing to be is authentic.
00:08:08.780 But I don't think that's true.
00:08:10.240 I think the most authentic thing to be is good.
00:08:13.400 In other words, I don't want to, I have all these bad habits and I have all these sins and inclinations to sin.
00:08:19.000 And I'm like, I'm just, no, no false modesty, true humility, right?
00:08:23.540 We're all broken people.
00:08:24.520 So I don't want to be authentically myself and be wrathful, lustful, prideful, vicious.
00:08:32.900 I want to be good.
00:08:34.280 And that'll seem kind of fake, like the first few times I try it.
00:08:37.600 But if you keep working at it, eventually it's going to get into your bones. 0.68
00:08:41.980 That's certainly a very Catholic perspective. 0.67
00:08:43.880 The evangelical perspective is that we are authentically evil, 0.73
00:08:46.620 and we need to embrace that about ourselves.
00:08:48.100 We love our Savior even more, but I'm with you on it.
00:08:50.200 Yes, but even then.
00:08:51.120 We are to be seeking righteousness and pursuing sanctification.
00:08:54.620 Yes.
00:08:54.820 And that does often mean putting aside our instincts.
00:08:58.720 And sometimes the cliche is fake it till you make it.
00:09:01.540 Now, there's actually a lot to that.
00:09:03.040 Yeah, yeah.
00:09:03.380 There's a lot to that in the health and wellness space
00:09:04.900 of like sometimes if your body is hurting you,
00:09:07.120 we'll act as though it's not hurting you
00:09:08.560 and it will start to follow.
00:09:09.580 And so I do believe in that as well.
00:09:10.940 Totally, totally.
00:09:11.900 And the podcasters need to get that lesson.
00:09:14.960 Yeah, all right.
00:09:15.500 Well, we're off to a rough start here.
00:09:17.700 Okay, so you're getting hammered on lactose.
00:09:21.140 Next question.
00:09:22.820 We have to watch this video before answering.
00:09:24.860 Okay.
00:09:25.460 Wow.
00:09:27.220 I have my answer.
00:09:30.100 Okay.
00:09:31.540 let's see you're not going to hurt my feelings no well i'm just answering for you i'm trying
00:09:35.940 you know one time to the rules one time not as though our friendship depends on this
00:09:42.900 i literally just spent an hour with kirk cameron half an hour ago depending on your answer to this
00:09:48.580 question you might never spend an hour with him again is kirk cameron the best buck williams of
00:09:54.500 the left behind movies and what is you're asking that because my father jerry jenkins wrote the
00:09:59.300 left behind books and the movies were based on them um so yeah i'm going to be authentic and
00:10:04.740 answer truthfully now okay now are you trying to throw me off though is that i'm a poker player
00:10:10.580 so sometimes you try to deceive people and sometimes you tell the truth so you know it's all
00:10:17.700 a game yes he is he is huh wow what about those poor other guys they're they're lovely too um i'm
00:10:27.540 I'm going to be very authentic and say I'm not a huge fan of the Left Behind movies,
00:10:31.080 even though they're based on my dad's books.
00:10:32.600 Yeah, yeah.
00:10:34.880 But they were all lovely.
00:10:37.040 Kirk is, I think, like he really got into it and really embraced it.
00:10:40.980 And so he did a lot.
00:10:41.840 What don't you like about the movies?
00:10:43.460 Is it a technical thing or is it a theological thing?
00:10:46.040 Oh, not a theological thing as much.
00:10:49.080 Look, I love many of the people who were part of making them and all that.
00:10:52.000 I just, they're not great movies.
00:10:54.140 you're you're like the most refreshingly honest filmmaker i've ever heard everyone's got always
00:11:00.260 oh no they did it's really good god is not dead 52 is like the greatest movie ever made and
00:11:05.040 i've made some movies that aren't great either so i'm willing to say that but uh the the faith-based
00:11:10.340 movie space has has a has a tortured past it's getting slowly but surely better um but i'm not
00:11:17.460 yeah i don't think uh we it's kind of sad because my dad is a huge movie buff and raised me to love
00:11:22.940 movies and all of that. And when the Left Behind books blew up and the movie ideas started to come
00:11:28.420 and we were kind of hoping for like a big thing that really lived up to the size and scope of the
00:11:33.420 story of the end of the world. And one of the things that I think suffers in the faith-based 0.99
00:11:39.300 filmmaking world sometimes is that we sometimes drink wine on a beer salary as you're taking
00:11:43.580 some of your martinis, which means that sometimes it's like this story should only be told on screen
00:11:49.400 if you've got the resources to do it.
00:11:51.520 But then you go, well, the message is what's most important.
00:11:53.860 So even though we don't have the resources,
00:11:54.940 let's just do it anyway.
00:11:55.740 And it ends up looking like a poor man's version
00:11:57.680 of a decent movie.
00:11:58.980 And I think sometimes,
00:11:59.920 and I think we tried to do this in The Chosen.
00:12:01.400 In season one, we didn't have a fraction
00:12:04.120 of the resources that we had now.
00:12:05.420 So the story was a little smaller.
00:12:06.660 We made it more intimate.
00:12:07.600 We shrunk the world a little bit
00:12:09.160 so it didn't look like we were trying to look cool and big,
00:12:11.880 but we didn't have the resources to,
00:12:13.180 so now it exposes our lack of resources
00:12:15.500 or our lack of skill.
00:12:16.460 And I think that's happened in the Left Behind movies.
00:12:18.680 Yeah, that's a great point, just being realistic.
00:12:21.400 You always hear this, whether it's in the Christian space or in the conservative space.
00:12:24.680 I've been to so many of these dinners and meetings and conferences.
00:12:27.780 We say, hey, you know what we're going to do?
00:12:29.840 We're going to film Jonah and the Whale.
00:12:32.140 We're going to film the Apocalypse of St. John.
00:12:35.180 We're going to film the whole thing.
00:12:36.920 We're going to just give us your money.
00:12:38.680 Don't worry.
00:12:39.500 We'll do it on a $7 budget.
00:12:41.220 Yes, because the message is all that matters.
00:12:43.060 The message is all that matters.
00:12:43.820 That comes through.
00:12:44.600 And so I think that's a mistake that's been made.
00:12:47.240 And to be fair, the producer of the Left Behind movies, a friend of mine named Paul Alon, has said,
00:12:52.480 I've been wanting to make a great Left Behind movie, and I haven't quite gotten there yet.
00:12:56.480 So to be fair, he understands and agrees that he hasn't quite done what he had set out to do.
00:13:03.000 But I do appreciate the attempts, genuinely.
00:13:06.020 And there's been some good stuff in them.
00:13:07.340 That's great.
00:13:07.860 If they do it again, I want to throw my hat in the ring to play the part,
00:13:11.340 because I want to beat Kirk for the best protagonist.
00:13:14.380 We'll wait until it gets funded.
00:13:16.660 You're up.
00:13:17.240 Watch video before reading, so I think we have a video.
00:13:20.760 Okay.
00:13:21.440 I don't know what you're saying, Stacy.
00:13:23.280 I think Stacy is referring to the obvious fact that Alex is a...
00:13:27.440 A what?
00:13:29.180 Well, I mean, as brave and beautiful as he is.
00:13:33.540 She.
00:13:35.040 She is brave and beautiful.
00:13:37.640 Of course. 0.99
00:13:38.800 But she does have certain advantages over a real woman, right? 0.99
00:13:42.660 Well, Stacey, Drake, all I can say to that is, how dare you? 0.97
00:13:48.640 Trans women are real women.
00:13:52.860 Physically, Michael could pass as a first century Middle Eastern shepherd boy,
00:13:58.240 but does he have the acting range to have played a character in The Chosen?
00:14:03.020 First century Middle Eastern shepherd boy.
00:14:05.260 So physically, you could pass as one. You have darker features. 1.00
00:14:08.240 The shepherd boy.
00:14:09.000 Yeah.
00:14:09.140 But does he have the acting range to have played a character in The Chosen?
00:14:13.380 So he's saying I look like an underfed child, but I also might be a bad actor, too.
00:14:19.560 That's the implication.
00:14:21.100 That's the question. It's an objective question.
00:14:24.240 Yeah.
00:14:24.640 I think the answer is what we'll say, which he thinks is.
00:14:27.960 Now, if I, so you have to guess how I would answer.
00:14:33.140 But depending on how I answer, I'm affirming the premise that I look like an emaciated, 0.98
00:14:37.720 a Levantine child? 0.99
00:14:41.380 I'm just reading the questions, my friend.
00:14:43.420 I didn't write them.
00:14:44.940 Yeah, I don't want to be caught up in a...
00:14:46.900 But if I answer no, then I'm saying
00:14:49.260 that I'm insufficiently
00:14:51.380 trained as an actor.
00:14:56.300 Well, because you've already
00:14:57.460 claimed that podcast
00:14:59.320 hosts are authentic, I'm
00:15:01.420 going to say you said no.
00:15:03.720 I said yes.
00:15:05.600 Now, did you say yes because
00:15:07.920 There are so many ways to read this. 0.99
00:15:09.600 You could be saying, Michael, you don't look like a Middle Eastern shepherd boy because you're too fat. 0.99
00:15:13.260 But you're still a fine actor, but you're too fat. 0.90
00:15:15.660 Or are you saying, no, Michael, you're a bad actor, but you do look like a thin child from the first century Palestine.
00:15:22.460 I'm saying I thought that we were going to be speaking truth to each other. 0.93
00:15:25.540 And I was assuming you would have a greater level of self-awareness.
00:15:30.040 That's on me. 0.99
00:15:30.800 You're saying I'm a fat, a fat, brown, bad actor. 1.00
00:15:35.440 I agree. 1.00
00:15:35.920 That's what you're...
00:15:36.980 I agree with the premise. 0.97
00:15:38.320 You could pass as a first century Middle Eastern Shepard boy. 0.99
00:15:41.760 I don't know exactly how old you are,
00:15:43.620 but you look like you could be about 17.
00:15:46.500 And there's not exactly a heft to your physical appearance.
00:15:50.200 So I'm just saying, the acting range to have played a character in The Chosen,
00:15:53.820 I'm not saying I didn't like your performance in that clip,
00:15:56.900 but I'm just saying...
00:15:57.660 It wasn't the full...
00:15:58.680 Do I need to go back to... 0.97
00:15:59.660 Oh, for a muse of fire that would ascend to the brightest heaven of invention. 0.99
00:16:04.620 I think for the next Left Behind movie, you'd be perfect.
00:16:09.980 All right, so I have to drink.
00:16:11.800 Just rip that out.
00:16:12.760 Okay, so you drink.
00:16:13.400 I'm going to drink after that, too, I think.
00:16:15.640 You were right.
00:16:16.140 Oh, because you get to drink because you were wrong.
00:16:18.140 Because of your answer, yes.
00:16:20.060 Okay.
00:16:20.620 So you're getting a little bit more drunk.
00:16:21.920 I'm getting a little bit more bloated.
00:16:23.580 We're on a good path here.
00:16:25.080 Your bones are very dense, though.
00:16:26.280 Yeah, exactly.
00:16:26.620 Okay.
00:16:27.680 It would be nearly impossible to make a show about Jesus without criticism.
00:16:31.620 You consulted religious figures from various denominations while creating The Chosen.
00:16:36.180 Has most of the criticism you've received come from the Eastern Orthodox Christians?
00:16:41.420 Well, is that, I think it just says, in this question, it just says Orthodox.
00:16:45.120 Capital O, I know that's, well, as for a clarification from Mr.
00:16:50.040 Are we talking lowercase o or capital O?
00:16:52.600 Capital O, it is capital O, so referring to the Eastern Church.
00:16:55.520 Okay.
00:16:56.980 Has most of the criticism you've received come from capital O Orthodox Christians? 0.99
00:17:00.920 That's a good clarifier. 1.00
00:17:05.280 That's a weird one.
00:17:07.320 I haven't followed the criticism all that closely.
00:17:10.860 I know you're not used to getting criticism.
00:17:12.760 I never.
00:17:13.360 No, never.
00:17:13.920 Not me.
00:17:16.000 Most, Chris, you would say, no way.
00:17:22.160 That's correct.
00:17:22.880 Yeah, no. 0.95
00:17:23.520 It's not from the, what would the Eastern, they don't even agree with each other on anything. 0.99
00:17:26.580 I don't, what would they? 0.77
00:17:27.420 I don't even know if they have televisions.
00:17:28.600 Yeah, of course not.
00:17:29.560 But no, they can't see it past all the beards and the hair.
00:17:32.500 Where has most of the criticism come from?
00:17:35.920 Evangelical Christians.
00:17:37.080 Really?
00:17:37.420 American evangelicals. 0.81
00:17:38.980 Without a close second. 0.93
00:17:40.340 Why? 1.00
00:17:41.080 Well, I think Protestants tend to be the most, everyone's strength is their weakness. 1.00
00:17:46.720 We're very, very passionate about the word. 1.00
00:17:48.300 We're very, very passionate about the Bible.
00:17:49.920 Solo scriptura, all of those things.
00:17:51.800 And I think some of the visual representations of the story that other faith traditions,
00:17:57.940 like the Catholic Church in particular
00:17:59.600 have been comfortable with,
00:18:01.220 we see as potential idolatry.
00:18:03.320 And so there's always a hesitation
00:18:05.180 in this kind of thing.
00:18:06.180 So now you combine that with the fact
00:18:08.020 that the majority of the show,
00:18:09.400 the content isn't directly from Scripture.
00:18:12.120 It's inspired by Scripture.
00:18:13.440 It's based on Scripture.
00:18:14.380 But gosh, anytime Jesus says,
00:18:16.000 hey, how's it going?
00:18:16.940 That's not in Scripture.
00:18:17.900 And so the people who are uncomfortable
00:18:20.640 with anything that's not from Scripture,
00:18:22.980 they've been very critical of.
00:18:24.500 Critical of my association with LDS folks,
00:18:27.280 that there's multiple Mormons who work on the show.
00:18:29.800 Yes, I read something about that.
00:18:31.740 Yeah, and so anytime we do anything
00:18:33.720 that doesn't quite fit into the box,
00:18:37.380 I think evangelical Christians have a tendency,
00:18:40.220 tendency, not always,
00:18:41.680 to be a little bit pharisaical.
00:18:45.180 Much of this have you had.
00:18:46.420 Yeah, but we've gotten it from all corners. 1.00
00:18:49.600 I mean, there's Catholics who aren't comfortable
00:18:51.040 with me being a Protestant
00:18:51.880 and telling a story in that way.
00:18:53.520 Well, yeah, we Catholics were never comfortable
00:18:55.480 with anybody being Protestant.
00:18:56.640 But that's like, that just goes without, so that's not a particular knock on the series.
00:19:01.600 Because, you know, I've been to a number of Catholic events with Jonathan Rumi, as a matter of fact,
00:19:05.460 and Catholics seem to love the series. 1.00
00:19:07.060 Oh, they really do, and largely because I think that one of the, again, strength is your weakness,
00:19:12.900 one of the weaknesses sometimes of the Catholic emphasis on reverence and statues and stained glass windows and these buildings.
00:19:19.900 Feneration.
00:19:20.660 Yeah, it sometimes creates a bit of a distance.
00:19:22.580 there's sometimes the reverence becomes emotional distance.
00:19:25.900 It becomes formality.
00:19:27.580 And so I think that some Catholics who have seen the show
00:19:30.580 have told me, combined with our practice,
00:19:33.840 this has made our relationship with Jesus even more personal.
00:19:37.420 And to see Jesus meet Mary Magdalene in a bar,
00:19:41.080 to see Simon Peter, some of these heroes of our faith,
00:19:44.080 these people we've venerated as saints,
00:19:46.960 also living sometimes in the same way we do,
00:19:49.460 making the same mistakes we do, is a really beautiful thing.
00:19:52.480 And so that's where I think one of the reasons why the show has had the success it's had. 0.59
00:19:57.000 There's this kind of Protestant-Catholic almost tension that has really helped the show.
00:20:02.360 Jonathan, who's a very strong Catholic playing Jesus, he's going to bring a little bit more of a formality to it. 0.78
00:20:06.900 And I'm a little bit more like, I want to see you screwing around with the guys.
00:20:09.760 Yeah.
00:20:10.160 We found this kind of middle ground that I think has played really well.
00:20:12.460 Yeah, because I've seen, you know, everyone has a criticism.
00:20:15.320 But I've seen a couple theological quibbles from Catholics about the show, but not a lot.
00:20:22.340 Yeah, nothing significant. 0.92
00:20:23.180 And that's interesting.
00:20:24.120 I hadn't considered it that within evangelical traditions, there is a kind of iconoclasm.
00:20:30.760 So the very act of depicting Christ in the story, that itself is kind of controversial.
00:20:35.500 Yeah, there's been people who've even said this violates the second commandment about
00:20:38.520 worshiping an idol or worshiping a representation of God.
00:20:43.080 And we're always like, Jonathan is not Jesus.
00:20:44.960 We're not worshiping Jonathan.
00:20:46.200 No one is worshiping Jonathan.
00:20:48.680 I'm not God.
00:20:49.740 The show is not the Bible.
00:20:51.020 Jonathan is not Jesus.
00:20:52.100 We know that. 0.95
00:20:53.360 We hope you realize that as well.
00:20:55.420 But yeah, I would say still, though, the majority of Christians of all faith traditions have
00:21:00.800 been immeasurably supportive of the show and grateful for it.
00:21:05.100 So I'm not the type who gets caught up in the minority who are critical.
00:21:11.500 I went into this show knowing what was coming.
00:21:14.340 I've been raised well by my parents.
00:21:16.100 I was confident when I was doing.
00:21:17.640 I care about what God thinks, what my wife thinks.
00:21:20.080 After that, as I'm sure you agree,
00:21:22.160 social media comments aren't going to solve
00:21:23.660 2,000 years of theological debate
00:21:25.240 and certainly aren't going to change my mind
00:21:27.180 about what I've been prepared to do.
00:21:28.840 No, and the more that people yell at you in the replies,
00:21:32.280 the more Elon bucks you get.
00:21:33.720 So it's really pretty lucrative actually too.
00:21:35.940 Okay, you're up.
00:21:38.220 And I need to clear my answer.
00:21:39.620 Okay, great.
00:21:40.660 So it's my turn, yes.
00:21:41.460 this question feels like it's from from you to me are we sure we're doing this right no i'm never
00:21:47.380 sure that but davy says we are doing it right because he because you're supposed to answer
00:21:50.880 okay given the history of production difficulties on christian film sets that some might call
00:21:55.560 spiritual attacks like jim caviezel being struck by lightning while filming the crucifixion scene
00:22:00.360 did the chosen team or did the chosen production team take any spiritual precautions while filming
00:22:06.900 so that's being asked of me i'm supposed to answer you're guessing my answer yes that's
00:22:11.180 Now, I love to fact-check my producers who get most of their information from, like, Reddit and the Magic 8 Bowls.
00:22:17.300 I don't think Jim was struck by lightning during the Crucifixion scene.
00:22:21.140 I thought it was a different scene he was struck by lightning.
00:22:23.600 I thought that he was.
00:22:25.220 It was during the Crucifixion? I might be wrong, but I won't admit that.
00:22:27.680 You could be wrong. I don't think that's the point of the question.
00:22:30.400 You're right. I'm quibbling.
00:22:32.140 We're being a little Asperger's-y.
00:22:33.720 We are, yes. You're right.
00:22:35.280 Touch of the tism. 0.96
00:22:36.780 Yeah, exactly. It's touched us for sure. 0.84
00:22:39.440 Jim Caviezel being struck by lightning at any point.
00:22:42.720 Okay, okay.
00:22:43.580 Did the chosen production team take any spiritual precautions while filming?
00:22:49.520 Okay, and you've got your answer locked in.
00:22:53.820 I hope so.
00:22:56.340 I hope you did.
00:22:57.160 Yeah, I would assume you did.
00:22:58.840 Yes.
00:22:59.300 What did you do?
00:23:00.260 Just prayer.
00:23:01.520 I mean, we've had people, I had a guy reach out to me early on who just said,
00:23:05.800 a guy by the name of Mark who said, God has put it in my heart. I'm a prayer warrior to pray for
00:23:10.480 you and to pray for the show. And just every day he would send certain insights. And I was like,
00:23:15.480 this guy is clearly communicating with the Lord about this and has felt led by this.
00:23:19.980 And so I invited him to the set and he just walked around the set and prayed over it. We don't do
00:23:23.500 some of the more formal things that some other faith traditions do, but just a lot of prayer.
00:23:27.160 There's literally hundreds of thousands of people who are in a kind of a prayer group that's global.
00:23:35.060 that was organized by Come and See, the non-profit that helps finance the show.
00:23:39.280 And they organized this prayer team that's made up of hundreds of thousands of people
00:23:42.360 who take our prayer requests weekly.
00:23:45.280 And so that's the kind of thing we did.
00:23:46.820 We didn't pour oil on anything or do anything like that.
00:23:50.020 Sacrifice any chickens or anything.
00:23:51.400 You don't want to do that.
00:23:52.260 Just lambs.
00:23:52.940 Yeah, good, good.
00:23:54.000 Yeah, I find sometimes if I'm going to go do an event or a speech or start a project
00:23:59.400 or whatever it is, get on an airplane, and I think, well, hold on.
00:24:03.480 Is my soul in a good state right now?
00:24:05.320 Am I, hold on, did I miss my prayers yesterday?
00:24:07.960 And it's easy to kind of brush it off.
00:24:10.600 But if you think it's all real, like if God exists and sin and the devil exists,
00:24:19.280 and like Christ died for our sins and then was resurrected bodily
00:24:24.380 and like is seated at the right hand of the Father.
00:24:26.560 Like, if all of that is real, then we need to be a lot less flippant about things like spiritual protection.
00:24:34.280 I was reading St. John Henry Newman, a great guy who was at different points in his life, both Protestant and Catholic.
00:24:40.640 I was reading John Henry Newman on particular providence.
00:24:43.620 He said, you say that God is everywhere and God is sovereign over history and God sees everything and knows every hair of your head and all the sparrows.
00:24:51.840 You say that.
00:24:53.040 so you know he's like right there right now he is particularly interested in you he is watching you
00:25:01.040 he is caring for you and you just sin and you'll still just sin god is like right here right this
00:25:10.040 very second looking at me lovingly having made the ultimate sacrifice for me and i'm just going 1.00
00:25:16.660 to go sin yeah and you read that you think man i'm a big dumb idiot right right no it's crazy 0.95
00:25:22.340 And the premise of my show, actually, is that the creator of the universe dwelt among us physically, not just spiritually. 0.99
00:25:29.200 And now he exists among us in the form of the Holy Spirit.
00:25:32.160 And one of the things that I've talked about as what I hope the show does, it's not that the show brings God closer or brings us closer to God.
00:25:42.000 It removes the things that we've put up, the veils that we sometimes put up between us and God, sometimes to justify our own sin.
00:25:49.640 I mean, how many times have we been alone?
00:25:51.920 And like you said, God is with us, but we go, not right now.
00:25:55.720 Subconsciously, maybe.
00:25:56.900 But like you said, how can we do some of the things we do if we really, truly believe that he was among us?
00:26:02.660 But what we do is in our humanity, we can create many things that get in between us and God.
00:26:08.320 And sometimes it's religion even.
00:26:09.620 Sometimes we put things up in our lives that we idolatry.
00:26:14.700 Make idols out of things.
00:26:15.540 Yeah, we make idols out of things.
00:26:17.240 Or we are so focused on our religion
00:26:19.760 and not the person that our religion
00:26:21.900 is seeking to connect us to
00:26:24.700 that we can, and I think that's true in life.
00:26:28.140 And so I hope that our lives can be an exhibit
00:26:31.880 of the belief that, no, this is real.
00:26:35.040 I really do believe this.
00:26:36.060 And I do believe that there are forces at work
00:26:37.940 that are competing.
00:26:39.240 We know who's going to win,
00:26:40.340 and we know who's going to win whenever they choose.
00:26:43.060 but we do need to live in that reality.
00:26:46.980 It's an eternal, the term we use is
00:26:49.160 we need to live on the eternal perspective
00:26:51.280 and not on the temporal.
00:26:52.600 Absolutely, with our eyes toward everlasting life.
00:26:55.000 It's time for the rapid fire round.
00:26:56.780 Three questions, 30 seconds.
00:26:59.000 No time to outthink each other.
00:27:01.200 The score right now, whoa, am I winning, really?
00:27:03.660 Right, okay, the score right now is one for me.
00:27:07.280 You have negative one.
00:27:09.180 Now, I don't know how you get negatives.
00:27:10.620 I'm two behind?
00:27:11.200 You are, you are.
00:27:12.400 Are you ready for the rapid fire?
00:27:13.860 Yeah, yeah.
00:27:14.220 Okay.
00:27:15.060 I go first.
00:27:15.920 Okay.
00:27:16.540 Okay.
00:27:18.700 Do men who put lotion on their lips have something to hide?
00:27:27.100 You put...
00:27:28.420 No.
00:27:30.780 That's correct.
00:27:32.020 You put lotion on your lips?
00:27:32.980 I don't do chapstick because it's actually bad for your lips long term.
00:27:37.140 I have chapstick on right now.
00:27:38.300 It's bad for your lips?
00:27:38.940 Long term it is.
00:27:39.640 So I just do face lotion and it covers the lips.
00:27:41.700 I'm not hiding any.
00:27:42.800 You're not, no.
00:27:43.480 I don't want to hide this light under a bushel.
00:27:44.920 I need to give the world what they want.
00:27:47.200 You know what I'm saying?
00:27:47.420 I'm hiding my dry chapped lips because all I drink all day is booze and coffee.
00:27:51.160 Well, mine are never dry because I just use lotion.
00:27:53.140 Okay, no, hold on.
00:27:53.780 Now, you leave that. 0.95
00:27:54.340 I know I'm supposed to do rapid fire, but now I'm talking about your lotion-y lips.
00:27:57.680 Okay, great.
00:27:57.960 Okay, we'll clear that.
00:27:59.820 Are healthy people who obsess over cold plunges basically the same as hippies
00:28:03.140 who swear a new colored crystal is the key to wellness?
00:28:06.380 I know my answer, but I don't know.
00:28:07.680 I've got to hold on.
00:28:08.480 Because you're all fit.
00:28:09.660 You're all fit and, like, muscular.
00:28:11.700 and you're like hip to the jive,
00:28:15.160 you're going to say no.
00:28:16.520 I did say no.
00:28:17.860 I'm a little impressed with your team
00:28:20.440 for some of the research they've done.
00:28:21.860 Yes, I'm a cold plunger daily
00:28:23.580 and also not a hippie.
00:28:24.860 Yeah.
00:28:25.160 But it is a fine line for sure.
00:28:26.720 Is it good for you?
00:28:27.860 Because I have all my buddies,
00:28:29.840 all my big giga chat buddies
00:28:31.560 that do the cold plunge thing, whatever.
00:28:33.700 But that seems bad for you.
00:28:36.200 No.
00:28:36.440 If for no other reason
00:28:37.500 than it teaches your body
00:28:38.820 how to handle challenging situations,
00:28:41.400 It teaches you how to manage stress and all the other stuff that I'm not sure how it's scientific.
00:28:46.280 But it has really been a huge lifesaver for me.
00:28:48.440 And every morning I do it, and it's better than caffeine.
00:28:51.480 So it's good for managing stress.
00:28:52.940 That and also just good for just waking.
00:28:55.100 Like in the morning, it's better than coffee.
00:28:56.560 You can literally, that's been measured as what it does to your dopamine and all that stuff.
00:29:00.240 Because you know what I find for managing stress and for waking up in the morning is good?
00:29:04.500 Booze.
00:29:05.460 It's great.
00:29:06.320 It's crazy.
00:29:06.920 You know, you feel good all of a sudden.
00:29:09.200 Yeah, along with, nicotine is very good for that.
00:29:15.320 Caffeine, of course, that almost has no effect on me at this point.
00:29:18.700 And so I've always considered those to be health foods.
00:29:22.120 You're saying otherwise.
00:29:23.360 This is why I'm a Protestant.
00:29:24.860 I'm just telling you, you are outing yourself.
00:29:27.560 Booze and cigarettes to start your morning, as our Lord would say.
00:29:30.900 So yeah, I'm with you.
00:29:32.240 No, I'm not with you.
00:29:33.300 No, no, that's fair.
00:29:34.240 I did, actually, not to make fun of any drunks in the audience,
00:29:37.380 But I remember I was walking around New York, New York's a very heavy drinking town, and I walked past a bar and outside the bar there was a sign that said, half off 8 a.m. eye openers.
00:29:49.060 I said, 8 a.m. eye openers? What kind of degenerate do you have to be?
00:29:52.140 I think you've got a problem if you're doing the eye opener drink. 0.93
00:29:55.860 Okay, next question.
00:29:57.980 Do you now regret not...
00:30:00.960 Now I see the whole reason that you were brought here specifically for this game.
00:30:06.700 Do you now regret not casting Ben Davies as Quintus,
00:30:11.140 which led him shortly after to apply to be a producer
00:30:14.920 for someone named Michael Knowles?
00:30:18.220 I have you to blame.
00:30:19.640 Yeah, Ben Davies did audition for the role of Quintus.
00:30:22.680 He's been known as one of the great antagonists
00:30:27.420 in the biblical media space.
00:30:30.460 And Ben did audition, and actually did a very good audition.
00:30:32.720 So the question would be, do I regret it,
00:30:35.440 now that he's working with you.
00:30:37.460 So I'll, let's see.
00:30:39.660 Can we do a question of whether or not
00:30:41.300 I regret you're not casting him?
00:30:43.440 Because that led him to be my producer?
00:30:47.240 Okay, it was correct.
00:30:48.220 You do not regret not casting him.
00:30:50.040 Ben's a lovely, a lovely actor
00:30:51.740 and did a lovely job,
00:30:52.860 but Brandon Potter, who plays Quintus,
00:30:55.060 has done a phenomenal job,
00:30:56.320 and I'm very proud of it.
00:30:57.320 And the show, Michael Knowles' show,
00:30:59.020 who my wife and I are fans of,
00:31:00.360 is clearly being produced well.
00:31:02.760 And I'm learning why it needs such good production.
00:31:04.900 Yeah, I was going to say, I was with you right until the end there.
00:31:08.640 So would you say one of the reasons he didn't get the part
00:31:10.880 is that he didn't look convincingly enough like a Middle Eastern shepherd boy?
00:31:17.040 Well, I don't, I mean, I know Quintus.
00:31:20.260 Quintus is a Roman, yeah, yeah, yeah. 1.00
00:31:22.540 Quintus is a Roman praetor of Galilee who is very much against what the Jews are doing. 1.00
00:31:30.840 So Ben looked the part. 1.00
00:31:33.820 Yeah.
00:31:34.020 He's got the good look.
00:31:35.620 He's clearly doing cold plunges and all this stuff.
00:31:39.060 But no, he wasn't Quintus.
00:31:42.380 I think he's exactly where he needs to be.
00:31:43.920 Yes.
00:31:44.520 Yeah, that's fair.
00:31:45.460 He looks too Anglo, too. 0.99
00:31:46.760 How do you feel? 1.00
00:31:47.720 How do I feel?
00:31:48.460 I'm never going to forgive you for not giving him that part.
00:31:50.540 Think about right now.
00:31:51.980 Think about my show could be, I could be living on Mars.
00:31:56.060 You know, it's like that meme of the world if, and it's like flying cars and everything.
00:32:00.380 The world, if Dallas Jenkins cast Davies as Quintus, I'd be on network TV.
00:32:07.640 I'd be, my ratings would be $10 billion.
00:32:10.120 I'd be the next vice president.
00:32:11.780 Far less controversial.
00:32:13.020 Far less controversial.
00:32:14.400 Relegated into this little cocoon.
00:32:15.980 Yeah, what is this?
00:32:17.200 I can barely get, you know, I was going to.
00:32:19.020 You know what we need to do?
00:32:19.700 We need to drink to it.
00:32:20.460 Cheers.
00:32:20.920 I was going to say, I can barely get a good martini.
00:32:23.760 But it's actually, it's a very good martini.
00:32:25.340 Good.
00:32:26.140 And this milk is lovely.
00:32:28.600 Okay, you're up.
00:32:29.340 All right.
00:32:31.380 Rapid fire.
00:32:32.280 I'm glad Ben's producing is really paying off
00:32:35.520 because we're really...
00:32:36.280 Oh, you have to clear your answer, too,
00:32:37.780 says Ben Davies.
00:32:38.760 You can hear just the deep resentment in his voice
00:32:41.360 every time he gets in my ear.
00:32:42.560 Okay.
00:32:44.100 Will AI replace independent movies
00:32:46.780 within the next 10 years?
00:32:50.080 My answer.
00:32:55.920 I'm going to...
00:32:56.680 What would you have said?
00:32:58.320 I'm going to go with yes.
00:33:00.380 Wrong. No way. No way. Do you think they will?
00:33:04.520 The reason that I do, again, this is a very broad question.
00:33:10.400 Not totally, of course, but one of the benefits of AI, it can also be a negative,
00:33:15.740 but one of the benefits of it is it does democratize a little bit of the ability to do,
00:33:20.160 like lower budget projects, people who don't have all the resources of Hollywood
00:33:23.580 have always been unable to do things that are a little bit bigger, have more scope and production value.
00:33:28.720 the time it takes to make movies is oftentimes financially improbable.
00:33:36.100 I'm not saying that right.
00:33:37.240 But my point is, like even working with animals, working with babies,
00:33:40.740 some of these things that I can't wait when AI gets better at that.
00:33:44.400 Like I'll never work with an animal or a baby again.
00:33:46.780 But for independent productions, not generative AI,
00:33:51.100 like not the type where I hope that people aren't just having AI.
00:33:53.360 Say, make me a movie.
00:33:54.580 Yeah, exactly.
00:33:54.920 Okay, maybe I misread.
00:33:56.020 I'm talking about like, yeah.
00:33:57.740 They'll integrate it into everything.
00:34:00.000 They'll integrate it into everything.
00:34:00.760 But I think even, like, I would never use AI to write.
00:34:03.800 I just, that's a line that I would.
00:34:05.500 I'm the son of an author who's written over 200 books.
00:34:07.720 Yeah, I never will either.
00:34:08.600 To write is to think.
00:34:09.340 But you know what?
00:34:10.000 I'll use it to research all day long.
00:34:11.340 Oh, of course.
00:34:11.660 And you still have to check it a lot and everything.
00:34:13.720 But it's very good at that.
00:34:15.380 So do you think, take it to the extreme, is there, we're all worried that AI is going
00:34:20.600 to put us out of work.
00:34:21.680 Is there ever a world in which AI just supplants filmmakers?
00:34:25.760 No.
00:34:26.240 No, not a chance, right?
00:34:27.100 It will reduce the number of, like we're saying, independent movies that are made by a filmmaker relying solely on their own resources.
00:34:38.140 That will be eventually very, very rare.
00:34:41.420 Okay.
00:34:42.020 It will become a tool to get better movies made on limited budget.
00:34:47.060 I was talking to another filmmaker also named Dallas, and I said, what's the effect?
00:34:51.560 He sometimes walks around these parts, Dallas Saunier.
00:34:55.160 And I said, what's the effect of AI?
00:34:58.100 And this was six, eight months ago.
00:34:59.960 So what's the effect of AI on filmmaking?
00:35:01.400 He said, right now, it basically take away zero.
00:35:04.520 The effect of AI, if you implement it properly in making a movie,
00:35:07.200 says it reduces the budget by an order of magnitude.
00:35:09.540 Oh, I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:35:10.880 I said, that checks out.
00:35:11.600 No, when used properly, it is extraordinarily helpful.
00:35:17.000 Is it okay to cast Meryl Streep as Aslan in the new Narnia?
00:35:22.080 What do I say?
00:35:23.820 Hmm.
00:35:24.960 because you've surprised me in your analysis of movies before so i i'm is it okay
00:35:31.440 i won't look try to guess okay this is so this is so hard this actually cuts at my
00:35:41.700 soul when i might i'm not i'm only being slightly hyperbolic on my view on filmmaking
00:35:46.460 yeah i don't think we're asking from a libertarian perspective should it be allowed
00:35:52.140 Obviously, Greta Gerwig, who you've praised.
00:35:55.600 Who I praise.
00:35:56.520 Yeah, I praise.
00:35:57.140 That's the problem.
00:35:58.340 So you were very, very positive about Barbie.
00:36:02.540 So we're not asking, I don't think we're asking,
00:36:04.740 should it be allowed?
00:36:05.780 Is it a good decision based on the source material?
00:36:10.220 Okay, I've got my answer.
00:36:11.300 Okay.
00:36:11.960 I would say no.
00:36:13.300 Yeah, no.
00:36:14.140 The answer is no.
00:36:15.080 And look, I hate, I will counter-signal Greta Gerwig
00:36:19.720 if I have to, if the movie's bad.
00:36:21.120 Right.
00:36:21.280 but I don't want to preemptively counter-signal her.
00:36:24.060 To me, she is like Trump.
00:36:26.260 She has this quality where it sounds like everything she's doing is horrible,
00:36:30.100 and the walls are closing in, and it's going to be...
00:36:32.080 And then you watch it, and you say, wait, Lady Bird is about a girl who concludes
00:36:36.500 she should stop sleeping around, call her mom, and go to church. 0.60
00:36:42.300 I'm in. 0.99
00:36:43.140 Oh, Barbie. 1.00
00:36:44.280 Barbie, this feminist movie where... 1.00
00:36:46.220 Hold on, the conclusion is feminism makes men and women both worse. 1.00
00:36:49.740 You need to talk to God. 1.00
00:36:51.280 And then instead of getting a job, lady, you should go have a child. 1.00
00:36:55.480 Sign me, where do I sign up? 0.99
00:36:57.220 This one is a little bit of a bridge too far.
00:36:59.620 I think because God, yes, God in a certain sense transcends the sexual difference.
00:37:09.680 Also, God has pronouns that we should respect.
00:37:12.100 Also, God is incarnate as a man and takes on human nature.
00:37:15.160 And the attributes of human nature actually matter in our understanding of the faith, right?
00:37:20.680 And I also sometimes think, why unnecessarily distract an audience that would be excited and passionate about this project?
00:37:31.640 Why, even before you start, kind of put things on the wrong foot?
00:37:36.800 Now, is it the thing that...
00:37:38.480 Now, Meryl Streep is the greatest female or male actor in the history of Hollywood, bar none.
00:37:43.180 I am a huge Meryl Streep fan.
00:37:45.080 It's not a criticism of her or of Greta Gerruga, who's a masterful filmmaker.
00:37:48.040 Yes.
00:37:48.480 I would have done it differently.
00:37:49.360 Yeah, I can't. Is she doing the thing Christopher Nolan did?
00:37:53.080 Some people thought what Nolan did with casting Ellen Page as Sinon was just to get a lot of free press.
00:37:59.140 And if that's what he was doing, it was very effective.
00:38:01.380 Is that what's going on here?
00:38:02.680 Is it, yes, Meryl Streep is an extremely talented actress and very skilled and all?
00:38:06.760 Or my kind of religious read on it is Greta Gerwig was educated by Jesuits.
00:38:13.140 And the Jesuits, there are two great questions in the Catholic Church.
00:38:15.500 How much money do the Franciscans have and what do the Jesuits actually believe?
00:38:18.840 We don't, you know, they're a confounding order.
00:38:22.060 And so the Jesuits are amazing because they get results. 1.00
00:38:26.420 Jesuit education gets all these libs, all these non-Christians, 1.00
00:38:29.720 and it just kind of infects their minds, and they become more Christian. 0.99
00:38:35.120 And it's very impressive.
00:38:36.820 But the Jesuits are also kind of lib. 0.52
00:38:39.100 And so they don't, so then you're like, okay, Greta Gerwig's like a Unitarian or something.
00:38:43.660 She was raised Unitarian.
00:38:44.760 And you say, okay, she's got all these great Christian images,
00:38:46.780 kind of conservative images in her film. 0.83
00:38:48.300 But then you get, she makes God a chick, you know?
00:38:52.100 And you're just like, ah. 0.53
00:38:53.320 I've never been more happy to be a Protestant than in the last 10, 20 seconds.
00:38:57.040 Hearing all of that analysis, I'm like, I...
00:38:59.460 I might have to confess my anti-evangelical...
00:39:03.640 Yeah, exactly.
00:39:04.780 Active action.
00:39:05.720 All right.
00:39:06.740 Michael, do you refuse to work out and let your body waste away into putty
00:39:11.000 because you think the rapture will happen before you see any gains?
00:39:14.320 Yeah, that's so crazy.
00:39:15.560 It's like almost every show, he somehow...
00:39:18.060 This one was now, too, about how my body is not attractive to Ben Davies.
00:39:22.860 So whatever predilection he has in his mind, he has to include that.
00:39:26.720 He called me putty.
00:39:28.360 He doesn't want your body to waste away.
00:39:31.360 I'm assuming this is because he cares for you and loves you.
00:39:34.320 Yeah.
00:39:34.760 But it doesn't read that way.
00:39:35.820 But it does say, do you refuse to work out and let your body waste away into putty
00:39:39.780 because you think the rapture will happen before you see any games?
00:39:43.260 I'm waiting for the rapture.
00:39:44.520 Yeah, right.
00:39:48.060 I got to think, I got to get rid of what I would say and think about what you would say.
00:39:54.500 Yeah.
00:39:56.000 No.
00:39:57.220 You say no.
00:39:58.460 You're totally right.
00:39:59.800 You didn't even push the button.
00:40:01.020 I think you'd refuse to work out and let your body waste away into putty just because you don't want to work out.
00:40:06.040 Not because of the rapture.
00:40:07.300 I think that's such an unfair question.
00:40:08.780 And it's insulting, to be honest with you.
00:40:09.900 Can I give, okay, the bad reason I don't work.
00:40:11.360 Do I get the milk because I was right?
00:40:12.620 You do.
00:40:13.100 You do, yes.
00:40:13.800 And I'm going to keep drinking every time he insults my adonic body.
00:40:16.720 The bad reason that I don't work out is I don't make time for it.
00:40:22.420 I'm disorganized.
00:40:25.240 And I'm kind of lazy.
00:40:27.140 That's it.
00:40:27.500 That's what I think.
00:40:29.220 But now the good reason I don't work out is, one, I don't have any time.
00:40:33.480 I've got a bunch of kids.
00:40:34.680 I overcommit.
00:40:35.860 I'm late on everything.
00:40:37.140 So I don't have any time to do it.
00:40:38.200 I, on the other hand, have unlimited amount of time.
00:40:39.580 You're just like hanging around all day on the yacht.
00:40:44.040 Yeah, that's why I work out.
00:40:45.320 And the other reason is, this is what I tell myself.
00:40:48.660 I say, well, I don't want to make an idol.
00:40:50.680 I don't want to make an idol out of my physical appearance.
00:40:53.040 Now, isn't that good?
00:40:54.260 Isn't that saintly of me?
00:40:55.940 I don't want others to make an idol of my physical appearance either.
00:40:59.320 So maybe I need to stop and just let my body waste into putty.
00:41:02.740 I learned something on coming on this show.
00:41:04.560 Thank you for leading me to the truth.
00:41:06.900 All right.
00:41:07.440 The rapid fire is done.
00:41:08.520 Okay.
00:41:09.300 Hold on, wait.
00:41:09.960 You know, we missed the second part of that question, though.
00:41:12.300 The rapture.
00:41:13.320 I'm a Catholic.
00:41:14.460 I didn't know, I'd never even heard of the rapture
00:41:16.400 until I was seven or eight years old,
00:41:19.480 and I don't know, like a Protestant friend
00:41:20.820 or something mentioned it.
00:41:22.120 Protestants all disagree on the rapture.
00:41:24.120 Some believe the rapture's happening.
00:41:25.960 Some don't believe it.
00:41:27.460 There are these lines in scripture
00:41:28.660 that at least present an image
00:41:31.460 of like the elect being taken up.
00:41:33.020 This is the sort of Catholic traditional reading
00:41:35.420 is that this is figurative.
00:41:37.460 But there is a literal reading of this.
00:41:39.260 For me, what's the 22nd pitch of the rapture?
00:41:45.420 Well, let me just say this.
00:41:46.960 As the son of the guy who wrote the definitive literature on the rapture,
00:41:50.900 selling 70 million copies talking about it,
00:41:53.500 both he and I will tell you, we don't know.
00:41:55.580 And it's actually not nearly as important as what you do before it comes, if it comes at all.
00:42:00.040 Yeah.
00:42:00.480 So can we click to that?
00:42:01.720 Cheers.
00:42:02.220 Yeah, no, because this is the point.
00:42:05.260 I think it comes from a literal reading of Scripture,
00:42:08.060 which I think is a good way to read Scripture.
00:42:09.920 I think there's also poetry in Scripture and all of that.
00:42:12.720 Anagogical, all these things.
00:42:13.540 Yeah, but the Protestant approach towards
00:42:15.440 when in doubt, err on the literal,
00:42:17.400 I think is a good approach.
00:42:19.480 But I haven't thought about the rapture in a very long time
00:42:22.600 because I'm focused on where we're at right now.
00:42:26.760 Because I love that.
00:42:27.840 I was just reading about the sort of four senses of Scripture.
00:42:32.100 You have the literal, the moral, the figurative,
00:42:34.240 the anagogical, and there are some
00:42:36.600 where the Catholics have very literal readings.
00:42:38.600 John 6, you know, the Eucharist, obviously,
00:42:40.860 is like we lean on the literal.
00:42:43.320 There's also figurative in that and moral and all the rest.
00:42:46.040 But others, we say like Job,
00:42:48.660 you don't read it all that literally.
00:42:50.340 Okay, so I get all of that.
00:42:52.380 And then I have these Protestant friends, 0.89
00:42:53.980 and they feel very passionately about the rapture 0.98
00:42:56.280 one way or the other.
00:42:57.960 But then I think in my ignorance of a lot of these debates,
00:43:02.020 I say, well, I don't know, man.
00:43:04.460 I don't know the day or the hour.
00:43:05.640 I don't, it doesn't totally, it's going to happen or whatever, it's not, like I'm not really in
00:43:10.320 control. So really all I can focus on is my, the state of my soul when whatever the thing that
00:43:18.560 happens happens. Right. Theology matters, doctrine matters, these things do matter. I do think that
00:43:23.120 though sometimes a certain theology or doctrine can become a priority over direct and personal
00:43:28.520 and intimate relationship with Jesus. And so when it comes to the rapture, look, I've loved the
00:43:32.940 benefits of the rapture discussion, because my father wrote a lot of books about it and did very
00:43:37.660 well with it. He got me through college, for sure. I'm very happy about that. But he would be the
00:43:43.820 first to say, he's like, this is our interpretation. He worked with his co-author, Tim LaHaye. This was
00:43:49.020 his doctrine, put two pages. If it happened this way, this is what it would look like. But I'm not
00:43:54.060 starting a church over whether or not it would happen this way. Yeah, okay, all right. That doesn't
00:43:59.720 actually answer, Michael, because I want like a vision, but you know what? I'm going to figure
00:44:02.640 it out. I'm not the guy to pitch you why the rapture is happening or not. And you know what?
00:44:06.720 I'm going to figure it out when I do a better job than Kirk Cameron in the next version of the...
00:44:12.020 Yeah, well, here's when you also figure it out. When it happens and I'm gone and you're still here.
00:44:15.800 Yeah, it's like, Dallas, tell me. You go, Doug, gone at the Protestants. We're right. 0.88
00:44:19.200 Yeah, I thought it was anagogical. And then you're going to say, bye, Michael. See you later.
00:44:25.260 By the way, in the Left Behind books, the Pope is raptured.
00:44:28.500 Really?
00:44:29.360 Which Pope?
00:44:30.360 Because it's kind of a mixed bag in history.
00:44:32.660 Mostly good, but...
00:44:33.580 The books are fictional, so it's not the actual Pope.
00:44:36.140 I'm just saying whatever Pope was existing in that time period, yes.
00:44:38.920 Wow, all right.
00:44:39.700 So we don't believe all Catholics are going to hell. 0.86
00:44:42.500 I have a lot of jokes that I could make that would be scandalous if I'm not going to hell.
00:44:46.300 By the way, what I just said...
00:44:47.480 No, Dante did it.
00:44:48.160 When I just said not all Catholics are going to hell, I was...
00:44:50.860 Excluding me. 1.00
00:44:51.900 I was being lighthearted, so I just want to make sure that...
00:44:54.040 Oh, I thought you were going to say, Michael, when I said not all Catholics are going to hell, 1.00
00:44:57.140 I want you. 1.00
00:44:57.480 There is certainty when it comes to you.
00:44:59.080 There is certainty that you are destined for perdition.
00:45:02.500 It is time for the final round.
00:45:04.540 The prompt will be read.
00:45:05.740 We'll both lock in our answers.
00:45:07.280 Then move our glasses to yes or no to see if we can read each other's minds.
00:45:11.600 This round is worth double points.
00:45:14.280 It could change everything, could it?
00:45:16.840 So the score, this is, I feel good.
00:45:19.680 I don't always do well in this game.
00:45:22.200 But I could lose two points and then I'm over.
00:45:25.020 It's four to nothing, me.
00:45:27.640 But it could...
00:45:28.140 Four?
00:45:28.620 I know.
00:45:29.240 I don't know how they're keeping score.
00:45:30.860 They're doing a little bit of funny math back there.
00:45:32.780 My goodness.
00:45:33.420 But it could flip right now, and then we could tie.
00:45:35.440 My, okay.
00:45:36.540 That's what I get for trying to be nice.
00:45:39.780 Is it possible that the Chosen has converted more people to Catholic than Christian? 0.98
00:45:47.120 I love my freaking Protestant producer. 0.97
00:45:49.540 He won't count Catholics as Christians. 1.00
00:45:52.560 He says that it might. 1.00
00:45:53.660 So I think what you're referring to, Ben,
00:45:55.520 is baptized Christians of the Protestant denominations.
00:46:00.080 Is that what you mean?
00:46:00.880 I think the question's right.
00:46:02.380 Yeah, you got it right. 0.82
00:46:04.200 Is it possible that the Chosen has made more people Catholic
00:46:08.380 than anything Protestant, Eastern Orthodox, whatever?
00:46:12.740 Is it possible that the Chosen has converted more people
00:46:15.240 to Catholicism than to evangelical Protestantism? 0.89
00:46:19.200 I think it's even bigger than that.
00:46:20.280 I think it's evangelical, mainline Protestantism.
00:46:23.520 Sure.
00:46:43.200 Feels like Princess Bride.
00:46:44.280 Yeah.
00:46:45.880 You gotta move, and you don't answer yet,
00:46:47.280 you gotta move mine to how you think I answered.
00:46:50.280 To how you think you answered.
00:46:52.980 No, to how you think I answered.
00:46:54.680 Because I know how I think I answered.
00:46:56.400 Hold on.
00:47:00.740 I'm wrong and he's right.
00:47:01.780 No!
00:47:02.300 Oh, shoot.
00:47:03.060 This is crazy.
00:47:03.780 You could tie.
00:47:05.880 You don't think it's possible?
00:47:06.820 I think it's possible.
00:47:07.380 I mean, in a general sense, it's possible.
00:47:10.180 I would say it's unlikely.
00:47:11.040 Okay, hold on.
00:47:11.800 He says, in a general sense, it's possible, but I'm going to answer no.
00:47:15.260 And then I lose my points.
00:47:15.960 It's highly unlikely.
00:47:17.200 it's happened in both
00:47:19.560 I mean I've heard from many
00:47:21.700 many Catholics who have been converted to Catholicism
00:47:23.700 or a lot of times they've restored
00:47:25.520 their Catholic faith. They left the church
00:47:27.920 and just kind of brought them back to it.
00:47:30.000 But the number of
00:47:31.840 evangelical Protestant
00:47:33.560 stories is overwhelming. 0.72
00:47:35.660 I mean it's just, so I just say it's
00:47:37.140 Here was my argument. I was trying
00:47:39.760 to, hold on, wait are you changing your answer?
00:47:41.380 Because then I think of Brazil which is a largely Catholic country
00:47:43.460 and the show like exploded in Brazil
00:47:45.620 so now I'm rethinking my answer.
00:47:47.200 hold on, hold on the judges, hold on the judges.
00:47:50.260 Is he going to change his answer?
00:47:53.500 I mean, in a purist, I'm going to change my answer.
00:47:56.040 He's changing it, let's go!
00:47:57.820 It's of course possible.
00:47:59.420 Yes, unbelievable.
00:48:00.520 See, that, what an upstanding moral man
00:48:04.740 who gives the honest, so Brazil,
00:48:07.260 so it exploded in Brazil.
00:48:08.580 Brazil, the Philippines,
00:48:10.060 like there are several Catholic,
00:48:11.800 like predominantly Catholic countries
00:48:13.200 where the show has actually grown faster
00:48:15.360 and per capita is bigger than it is in the States.
00:48:17.860 And it's a lot of Catholic countries.
00:48:19.480 And I was thinking, typical ethnocentric viewpoint of like,
00:48:24.040 I was thinking of America.
00:48:26.060 And of course, anecdotal conversations that I've had. 0.95
00:48:28.840 But I spend more time in the Protestant world
00:48:30.980 than I do the Catholic world anyway.
00:48:32.640 This happened to me early on in my show
00:48:34.760 where I did some flippant episode
00:48:37.420 kind of making jokes about Germany. 0.72
00:48:38.960 It was like, oh, Germany is the worst country in the world.
00:48:40.620 It was like a joke show. 0.99
00:48:42.340 And then, because I just assumed the audience is all American. 1.00
00:48:45.360 And then I got all these angry messages from all these Germans. 1.00
00:48:49.420 They don't have the greatest sense of humor. 1.00
00:48:51.540 To be fair, they've got a lot to kind of, that's still a little too soon, you know?
00:48:55.480 So there's reason for them to be kind of just like,
00:48:58.680 let's just give ourselves another few decades before we start.
00:49:01.520 Or again, they're going to write in to me again.
00:49:03.260 That's amazing.
00:49:04.380 My thought on why you might get more Catholic converts, well, it's possible.
00:49:10.760 I'm not saying it's even likely, but it's possible,
00:49:12.920 is that there is this kind of Catholic moment 0.57
00:49:17.120 happening right now in France,
00:49:18.640 and especially in the UK, in America also,
00:49:22.240 where you say, maybe you get a guy
00:49:23.840 who's just, now he's reading his Bible
00:49:25.220 for the first time.
00:49:26.200 Maybe he's kind of tuning in for the first time.
00:49:28.520 And part, I mean, look, the Holy Spirit converts.
00:49:31.920 You know, the Holy Spirit,
00:49:32.620 but the show would be the proximate cause.
00:49:35.280 And you say, well, maybe, at another time,
00:49:38.740 maybe people culturally would have
00:49:40.460 converted to Anglicanism because of it.
00:49:42.640 Yeah. Well, I would say the American Bible Society does an annual report of Bible reading and Bible
00:49:48.840 sales. And it's been going down for decades, both with reading and sales. In the last few years,
00:49:56.460 it has stabilized or in some places gone up a little bit. And in their first paragraph of
00:50:00.460 their analysis, they mentioned the chosen as one of the key factors. Now, because we Protestants
00:50:04.580 value the Bible more than you do, if they come to the Bible, they're coming to our side.
00:50:09.680 So I'm just saying.
00:50:10.260 Before he changes it again, I'm going to keep that answer.
00:50:12.300 Okay, you're up.
00:50:16.020 Hollywood has been failing, but once produced, excellent biblical films like Ben-Hur, The Ten Commandments, and Samson and Delilah, winning 14 Oscars between the films.
00:50:27.780 Excluding a future Dallas Jenkins or Mel Gibson film, will Hollywood ever make another great Christian film?
00:50:34.700 Gosh, I'm excluded from this? 0.86
00:50:36.240 Yeah, hold on.
00:50:37.700 Are they excluded?
00:50:38.300 Because now, in a weird way, you are kind of Hollywood
00:50:42.440 because just the show was so successful
00:50:44.860 that Amazon, for instance, had to deal with you.
00:50:48.440 Well, and some of our other projects that we're developing,
00:50:52.360 we just did a project called Joseph of Egypt
00:50:54.120 that's coming out next year that was financed by Prime Video,
00:50:56.560 and we made it, and so that's Hollywood making a movie.
00:50:59.460 But they're excluding these.
00:51:01.140 Excluding a future Dallas Jenkins or Mel Gibson film. 0.99
00:51:04.040 Will Hollywood ever make another great Christian film
00:51:06.940 not made by Dallas Jenkins or Mel Gibson. 0.89
00:51:21.480 Remember the scene in Princess Bride?
00:51:23.020 Yeah.
00:51:24.760 So I'm thinking what your answer is.
00:51:28.180 What if I told you right now,
00:51:29.460 what if that were the setup to tell you
00:51:30.760 I put Ibogaine in your milk
00:51:33.100 and you just collapsed right in there?
00:51:35.460 That would be an amazing episode.
00:51:36.920 And I unearthed all my previous trauma
00:51:39.100 that I wasn't aware of on your show.
00:51:43.120 Correct.
00:51:43.520 Both, obviously, right?
00:51:44.560 Of course.
00:51:44.980 Why?
00:51:46.580 Well, two reasons.
00:51:47.720 One, I think there are sometimes great Christian films
00:51:50.120 that Hollywood weren't even necessarily aware were Christian, right?
00:51:54.600 But also, I mean, there are still films being made.
00:51:57.940 I mean, Lionsgate is a Hollywood studio,
00:51:59.780 and they have financed and made multiple films
00:52:01.640 by some wonderful Christian filmmakers,
00:52:04.360 including good friends of mine,
00:52:05.260 and that will continue.
00:52:06.880 And so, yeah, I think we're currently in an age
00:52:09.200 where there's more opportunities.
00:52:10.920 Yeah, let's drink.
00:52:12.580 Cheers to that. 0.99
00:52:13.300 Cheers to future Hollywood Christian movies.
00:52:15.820 Yeah. 0.96
00:52:17.140 The other reason, I don't know,
00:52:18.680 maybe I'm more basic about it.
00:52:19.860 You're obviously much closer to the industry.
00:52:24.100 It's all true.
00:52:25.460 And so these are the stories that resonate
00:52:27.560 with the human spirit and have for 3,000 years.
00:52:32.160 So if you want to make great stories, they have to play on these themes.
00:52:37.660 And if you want to make really, really great stories, a pretty sure bet is to make a Bible story. 0.57
00:52:43.320 Well, and also, like The Matrix, for example, is filled with some of the most eye-opening Christian imagery and themes.
00:52:53.340 Now, the filmmakers were not setting out to make a Christian film, but they specifically said,
00:52:58.140 Yeah, we are borrowing from the Christian story
00:53:00.320 because it's the greatest story ever told.
00:53:02.580 Well, just because their intention wasn't necessarily to do a Christian film
00:53:05.880 doesn't mean the film isn't Christian.
00:53:07.700 It doesn't have Judeo-Christian values.
00:53:09.520 So there's lots of movies like that that I think can be considered Christian films.
00:53:15.160 The Coen brothers, to me, are a really clear example of this.
00:53:18.520 Hail, Caesar is one of the most Christian films I've ever seen.
00:53:22.460 It literally, and the punchline to the movie is faith with the centurion at the crucifixion scene. 0.82
00:53:29.420 The villain is a communist homosexual, and the protagonist is a guy whose opening scene is in a confessional, confessing his sins. 0.86
00:53:40.080 It's so blunt, and I think, well, if that's not a Christian movie, what is? 0.97
00:53:43.840 Well, Lady Bird is another example. 1.00
00:53:45.000 Lady Bird is another great example, yeah.
00:53:46.300 And so, yeah, there's lots of examples.
00:53:48.220 I think that sometimes we have a tendency to be so proud of our resistance to Hollywood.
00:53:55.100 And I mean, I grew up in that environment, not necessarily my father, but like the environment I grew up in was a Hollywood is evil and trying to destroy the world.
00:54:03.580 And that becomes this monolithic thing that we assign to everybody who's part of Hollywood.
00:54:08.320 Exact kind of thing we don't want done to us.
00:54:10.160 We don't want people lumping us all into one big group.
00:54:13.480 And I think that that's a dangerous way to look at things.
00:54:15.780 And I think, I mean, I've met absolutely lovely, wonderful people in Hollywood who have been extremely supportive in every conceivable way for some of my projects that are explicitly about Jesus.
00:54:24.300 Yeah, yeah.
00:54:24.800 And so I'm going to be the last one to say, I think Hollywood's dangerous and all this stuff.
00:54:28.560 It can be, but so can I.
00:54:30.000 I mean, all of us are capable of ill.
00:54:32.500 And so I love the fact that right now we're in an age where all of the major platforms are all open to and, in fact, seeking out projects like this.
00:54:40.840 That's too balanced and charitable for this show.
00:54:43.240 I'm afraid.
00:54:43.680 Yeah.
00:54:43.980 So the final score, because of Dallas's great integrity...
00:54:50.140 Magnanimous approach to this game.
00:54:51.460 Magnanimity and integrity.
00:54:53.200 Final score is 8-4.
00:54:55.380 Now, speaking of numbers,
00:54:58.140 seasons 1 through 5 of The Chosen are streaming now on Prime Video.
00:55:02.000 Season 6 will debut with three episodes on November 15th,
00:55:06.600 followed by a new episode each week through December 6th.
00:55:10.180 Check out this teaser.
00:55:13.980 My heart.
00:55:20.980 My heart.
00:55:21.980 I'm here.
00:55:23.980 I'm here.
00:55:24.980 Just, just, just, just.
00:55:26.980 From his head, his hands, his feet.
00:55:38.980 Sorrow and love flow me
00:55:47.980 This is the way
00:55:53.980 Your way
00:55:56.980 You're a reason.
00:56:24.620 Father...
00:56:26.980 Forgive them.
00:56:30.700 When I survey the wondrous cause.
00:56:45.700 So there's time for you to catch up on the show.
00:56:48.040 Whoa.
00:56:49.520 That's...
00:56:50.040 We're season six.
00:56:52.680 You know, I'm not, it's not a flattery, whatever.
00:56:55.180 I teared up a little bit at the crying out.
00:56:58.380 That's okay.
00:57:00.040 Thank you for watching.
00:57:01.180 Get ready.
00:57:02.080 Get ready to watch all the old seasons and the new season.
00:57:07.660 We will see you on the next episode of Yes or No.
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